14/11/2013 Question Time


14/11/2013

David Dimbleby presents debate from Portsmouth where shipbuilding is about to end. The panel includes Ed Davey, Stella Creasy, Nigel Lawson, Paul Kenny and Nikki King.


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Transcript


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Tonight, we are in Portsmouth, a city that has built warships for 500

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years and last week was told ship building would end with the loss of

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almost 1000 jobs. Welcome to Question Time.

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Welcome to you at home, to our audience here, and to our panel.

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From the Cabinet, the Liberal Democrat energy Secretary, Ed Davey.

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Labour's shadow competition minister, Stella Creasy. Margaret

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Thatcher's former Chancellor of the Exchequer, Nigel Lawson. The leader

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of the GMB, Paul Kenny. And from Isuzu Truck 's, the first woman to

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run a UK truck company, Nikki King. We have, in effect, three

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generations of politicians here for you to tax with your questions. A

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question from Mark Green. Was Portsmouth dockyard sacrificed to

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keep Scotland in the UK? Does anybody else have views on this? I

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think it is a terrible decision for Portsmouth and Britain, and really

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bad for the Navy. If Scotland is independent, where will they build

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their ships? The Royal Navy will have to buy foreign ships. A

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terrible decision. Anybody else? Just in response to that, being a

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Scot myself and living in Portsmouth and worried about the impact of ship

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building stopping, you need to realise there are a lot of Scottish

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people who do not want independence, and chances are it

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will not happen. Well, what I would like to discuss

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is if BAE themselves took over and moved to Portsmouth, what was their

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plan for the future? To go up to Scotland, where they have very

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little shipbuilding experience in small ships? And you, with the

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beard. Ship builders do not have a job for life by divine right. This

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is about the government ordering, or not ordering, ships for the royal

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navy. We are still in island nation, we import 95% of our food,

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fuel, oil, daily, by C. The decision has been made to dramatically reduce

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the size of the Royal Navy, which is why you guys have not got any job

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is. You cannot expect to have a job for life, all the time you have a

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government decimating the size of the Royal Navy. The original

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question was, was Portsmouth dockyard sacrificed to keep Scotland

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in the UK? As we know, the work is going to Scotland. It is difficult

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when there are people who have lost jobs, families who are worried. It

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is not just 1000 skilled workers who will be losing their jobs, but the

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knock-on jobs connected to that. It is extraordinary difficult, but it

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is not to do with the Scottish referendum. There are some difficult

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decisions in a ship building and for maybe ship building. Remember, there

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are 800 jobs being lost in Scottish shipyards as well. What we have to

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do as a government is to do as much as we possibly can to help the

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people who have lost their jobs, and to help the economy here in

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Portsmouth. That is why we are going to invest ?100 million in the

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harbour, so when the aircraft carriers come here, they can be

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based here and we will have those jobs, and this can continue to be

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the home, the proud home of the Royal Navy. And then we need to do

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more. That is why there is a city deal being struck with Portsmouth

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and Southampton to unlock land that the Ministry of Defence had, so more

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business can be created in future, more homes can be built, because

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they are needed, too. We are going to try and do as much as we can. But

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I am clear, this is a difficult decision, and it is not going to be

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easy for Portsmouth. But as a government, we are going to be there

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to help Portsmouth. When your Defence Secretary said he did not

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anticipate the UK would wish to place orders for ships outside the

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UK, and it is something people in Scotland need to think about very

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carefully, was that not a threat about removing this building from

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Scotland and returning it to Portsmouth, if Scotland votes for

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independence? If not, what did it mean? I understand it is a legal

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requirement. If the ships were built in independent Scotland, the tender

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would have to be across the whole of the European Union, and the rules

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say that you can have a defence tender in your own country because

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of security and fence interests, but as soon as those ships are built

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outside, you have to offer it to all of the defence industry across the

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European Union. He was stating a legal fact. Paul Kenny. I think we

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need a dose of reality. In the last few days, the last week we have seen

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about 10,000 jobs go out of our economy. The jobs at Portsmouth and

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in Scotland are part of that pattern. I want to say this about

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it. You cannot turn on and off highly skilled jobs, about building

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ships, to protect them island nation. I will pick up the point

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made by the gentleman in the audience. We have decimated the

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Royal Navy. We have decimated it. We now have an entire surface fleet of

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18 ship 's. We could not fight a Cold war, let alone go around the

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world and protect interests. We could not fight an exclusion zone

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around the Isle of Wight. We have run our nation into the ground. 1000

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highly skilled jobs from Portsmouth. Another factory down the road,

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absolutely decimating this area. I listened carefully to what Ed Davey

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said and I will pick him up on it. 18 months ago, our union pleaded,

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almost begged to the government, not to give the contract for ?500

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million of ship welding work to Korea. These are ships, four ships,

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that service the Royal Navy when they are at the. Four ships, and the

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government, and the minister at the time was not you, but Philip

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Hammond, gave that contract to Korea. And all they had to do was to

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designate those ships as warlike. Put a catapult on the front. That is

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something the French might have done to protect their ship holding. Was

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it done on a money basis? They said no British company bid for those

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jobs. There were not effectively any bids from British companies because

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they were told it was going to Korea. That is the reality. If they

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had been deemed as warlike, because they service the Royal Navy, the

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truth of the matter is that that would have been work which would

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have fitted into these yards and kept the jobs here and in Scotland.

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This is not a battle between Portsmouth and Scotland because a

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lot of people in Scotland will lose jobs. This is about proper support

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for the Royal Navy and getting jobs that can be put, keeping skills in

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this country here. You could have kept those ships in the UK. In the

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same way that Mr Hammond sent rail carriages to do Germany instead of

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giving them to Derby, he sent those ships to career, instead of keeping

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British skilled workers in British yards and keeping our Royal Navy

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afloat. Ed Davey, I will come back to you

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later on those points. I run a small ship building yard in Portsmouth,

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very small. We are very proud of our export record. We do not borrow any

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money and the government has never helped us. Our landlord has now told

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When you actually look at the we have to

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When you actually look at the evidence, it was cold-blooded

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murder, full-stop. I do not think there was any question that he

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should be held accountable. She is absolutely right and I think this is

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accepted by the Royal Marines themselves. Gillian Thompson, who

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served in the Falklands, said that he was not going to stand around

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bad-mouthing him, I do not condemn him, he is like a member of the

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family who broke the law. What do you think of the Daily Telegraph's

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petition to have the judge show leniency? Well, it might well be a

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good journalistic stunt, but it does not alter my view, which is exactly

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the same as that already expressed. That murder is murder? Yes, and

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there were no circumstances to change that verdict. It was

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thoroughly done, it was a prosper procedure, and I'm afraid there were

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not any mitigating circumstances. One of the major differences between

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the Royal Marines and the Taliban are that the Royal Marines work

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within the parameters of the law, and the Taliban does not, so what

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that Royal Marines in question did with one shot from his pistol was to

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blur the lines between what is right, and what the Royal Marines to

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nine times out of ten, or even more, and what the Taliban do on a daily

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basis. If it was your son that was at the end of that bullet, Howard

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you feel about that situation test murder is murder and there is no

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justification for it. Does anybody disagree? I would turn that question

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around, what if it was your son who had been out in Afghanistan for six

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months, and they had seen their comrades' arms and legs hanging from

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trees as we do not know the stress they were under. I think to condemn

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him is awful. And he was out there in our name. I would agree if you

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had not read the dialogue that was recorded at the time. There is that

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point about the question about the incredible stress that we put our

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Armed Forces under in the most difficult scenarios, but let's be

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clear about it, that standard. How do we hold up the moral line

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effectively if what we do is to execute injured prisoners? If the

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boot was on the other foot, we rightly would be condemning whoever

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did that to our personnel, irrespective of what the opposition

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is, you do not execute people like that in cold blood, you just do not

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do it. We have just had Remembrance Sunday, a hugely important day for

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the families of those who serve, because we ask them to make the

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ultimate sacrifice. One of the reasons we do that is to uphold

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those values and freedoms, so we must consistent about that. My worry

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about this case is that it has the potential to sustain the good name

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of so many people. I have friends and family who serve and I'm the

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president of the Royal British Legion in my local community. I feel

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passionately about the importance of defending the good name of those who

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serve overseas. Part of the way we do that is that when those people

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transgress we say, it is not acceptable, not any different. You

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are right, sir, murder is murder. Another question. Ed Davey, I am

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sorry. I am going to agree, but I want to make the point following

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from what Stella was saying, that the Royal Marines have a proud

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history. They have done this country some magnificent achievements. One

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of the reasons we have to see this process through, allow the evidence

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to be judged and the sentencing to go through is because of that proud

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history of the Royal Marines. Because we do not want the

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reputation of the Royal Marines besmirched. Getting justice seem to

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be done is the best way to uphold the proud tradition of the Royal

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Marines. Obviously, with this individual case it is right that

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justice is done. But if we are talking about murder is murder, what

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about the civilians killed when we bombed Baghdad and Libya?

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If this is murder, and I believe it is, what do they think about the

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drone operators that kill hundreds of people every day? And the

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civilians who are killed? Does anybody want to come in on that. On

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the drones, it is a serious question we have to face up to. I think, if

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the Americans keep using drones in the way they have been doing, I

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think everyone is going to say this is setting a very, very dangerous

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precedent. And I think the UN and the international community has to

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look very seriously at these weapons, that they are potentially

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transgressing sovereignty. In the case we know about, the sovereignty

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of Pakistan. And while drones can be, if they are not used in a

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military way, they can be used for surveillance very effectively, which

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is how the British use them. There are serious issues on the

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international law of the use of drones. The American government is

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beginning to look at that. The point is, how do you compare this one

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Royal Marines killing the injured member of the Taliban and, one must

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assume, with what we know are hundreds of killings of women and

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children in Afghanistan and Pakistan by drones? And we just say, well, we

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ought to look at that. There are lots of strict rules of

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international engagement and conflict. My concern with drones is

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that international law has not caught up with them, and it must do,

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so that people using this technology actually have to abide by the law.

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The Royal Marines do. What do you mean by abide by the law? The law is

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not being applied to those. The law has not caught up with the

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technology, and I'm calling for it to do that. But until then you can

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use them with impunity? We should not, and we don't. I do not know

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enough about how the Americans use them. The Americans in the Armed

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Forces are saying we have got to make sure we do not set a precedent

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so other countries start doing what we are doing with drones, because

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that would be very dangerous. Killing innocent civilians is wrong,

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if it is wrong, it is wrong universally, and we should have the

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courage to say that. I do not find that a difficult problem. I think

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the difficulty is that the drones are getting away from us because the

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Americans are now working on robot drones. They do not even have people

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at the end of the TV screens guiding them. They are preplanned when they

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take off, and the basic mission is to kill people. They do not even

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have the possibility of aborting the thing if they look and see lots of

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civilians instead of the supposed target. Simon Frost, please. Is

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Typhoon Haiyan further evidence of mankind creating climate change? If

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so, what can we do to reduce the risk of further disaster? There is

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no connection at all between this typhoon and climate change. If you

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look at tropical is, you will find there has been no increase in the

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amount, or the strength of tropical storms for the past 100 years.

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Indeed, this year, Typhoon Haiyan is terrible, appalling, but I am afraid

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these things happen in the tropics. In the Atlantic hurricane season,

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this year has been one of the quietest seasons in the Atlantic

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within living memory. It is the quietest, although they predicted

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there would be more for 30 years or more. If you look at what the

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Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says, recognised as an

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authority on this, they say there is absolutely no connection between

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so-called climate change and tropicals or is, all tropical of all

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kinds. -- tropicals or is. This is a scare which people latch onto but

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there is no scientific merit in it, no statistical merit in it. There

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has been no increase in extreme weather events at all, and this is

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fact. Ed Davey, do you agree? I am glad to see that Lord Lawson is now

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praising the IPCC. On this question, I think he is absolutely

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right that there is no evidence that climate change is increasing the

:36:43.:36:46.

frequency of tropical storms. There is evidence that it is increasing

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the impact of the intensity of those storms. And this is how it is doing

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it. Sea levels are rising. That is a fact and I hope Nigel Lawson will

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agree. That is happening because of climate change because the ice caps

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and glaciers are melting. With higher sea levels, islands like they

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have in the Philippines and low-lying coastal areas are far more

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vulnerable to these storms than they ever used to be. At is the real

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danger of climate change. It is not always increasing extreme weather

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events, although the IPCC says that in some cases they think it is, but

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it is making these areas far more vulnerable. That is why these

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disasters are on a scale we have never seen before. We have to take

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climate change extremely seriously. We have to lead by making sure we

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are taking measures, investing in renewables, low carbon and energy

:37:40.:37:44.

efficiency. Next week I'm going to the global climate change talks in

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Warsaw and working to sign a global deal in 2015. The world has to take

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action. The evidence says it is more urgent than ever before and I hope

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that Nigel, when he looks at the evidence from the IPCC, which he is

:37:59.:38:03.

now quoting in favour, I hope he will realise the world have to take

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action on climate change. -- the world has to. Isn't this so

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confusing? One minute I am told I have two save my rubbish and the

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next minute I am told it all goes to the same landfill site. One minute I

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am told if we do not save the planet it will die in 20 years, and

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somebody else says it is just the natural life of the planet. I wish

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somebody would tell me exactly what is going on and then I could make a

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decision. It is so difficult. I find it very confusing. I am in the truck

:38:40.:38:43.

business. You will probably agree that the motor industry has done an

:38:44.:38:53.

awful lot for climate change. Sorry, done an awful lot for climate

:38:54.:38:59.

change? It has cleaned up its act, enormously. One of my trucks parked

:39:00.:39:03.

in Calcutta, the air coming out of the exhaust pipe is cleaner than the

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air going in. If you look around Calcutta, you will see thousands of

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vehicles that are ten or 15 or 20 years old. I am not quite sure what

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this little Europe can do when there is so much of the rest of the world

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that needs to come up to speed. Stella Creasy. Nigel, I hope you

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will take up the offer made by the Filipino delegate to the climate

:39:36.:39:38.

change conference. I don't know if you saw his impassioned speech that

:39:39.:39:43.

made a lot of people cry, about his view that there was a connection. I

:39:44.:39:48.

take the scientific evidence. The evidence shows there is a 95% chance

:39:49.:39:53.

that climate change is man-made. That means there is a 5% chance that

:39:54.:39:58.

it is not, and it is right that we have a public policy debate about

:39:59.:40:03.

that risk ratio. My sense is that 95% is a pretty good standard to

:40:04.:40:06.

start thinking about what we can do to address that. That gentleman was

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talking about trying to take dead relatives out of the rubble of

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buildings and dealing with the consequences. We are not immune to

:40:15.:40:18.

our own responsibilities about things we can do to create a more

:40:19.:40:21.

sustainable way of living, and I do not want to take the risk that we

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might be in that 5%, when the 95% of independent scientific evidence,

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when I hear you talk, Nigel, opinion meets fact. The fact is that climate

:40:34.:40:38.

change is happening. We can have different debates about how we

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address it, but the idea that we can ignore it and make it go away, talk

:40:42.:40:44.

to people in the Philippines and you will hear a very different story. I

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think you are very confused, if I may say so. First of all, where

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there is no scientific connection, and this is accepted by the IPCC and

:40:55.:40:59.

the majority of scientists, is between global warming and

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hurricanes and typhoons, including this terrible one in the

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Philippines, which is particularly bad. That is what the question was

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about. As for the 95%, what they are saying is that they are 95% certain

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that the amount of global warming that there has been is largely due

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to carbon emissions. But in fact, there has been very little global

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warming. There has been none at all over the past 15 years. This is a

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fact. If you go to The Met office, they admit this. Everybody knows

:41:35.:41:38.

about this ad mitts on it. The amount of global warming is very

:41:39.:41:43.

little. Ed Davey, what do you say to that? Every decade, it has been

:41:44.:41:50.

getting warmer. This year will be the seventh warmest on record. It is

:41:51.:41:53.

not just global temperatures, but temperatures in the oceans. The ice

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caps are melting. It is not just that, but the sea level rising. It

:41:59.:42:04.

is also the acidity in the seas. There is overwhelming evidence that

:42:05.:42:08.

climate change is happening. Do not believe me as a politician. Believe

:42:09.:42:14.

the scientists. The IPCC had 259 scientists from 39 countries, 50,000

:42:15.:42:21.

comments for peer review. It was the most peer-reviewed piece of science

:42:22.:42:28.

in human history. I think what Nigel Lawson challenged you with was that

:42:29.:42:31.

there has been no change over the past 15 years. Is that true, or not?

:42:32.:42:42.

It is flat. It is not flat. When we are talking about climate change, we

:42:43.:42:47.

are talking about long periods. The global warming foundation, which

:42:48.:42:51.

Nigel Lawson shares, which is trying to undermine the scientific

:42:52.:42:53.

consensus on climate change, they take this 15 years. Because the

:42:54.:42:58.

increase in global temperature has been slowing down, they say climate

:42:59.:43:03.

change is not happening. When you ask scientists, they say, over a

:43:04.:43:07.

short period, we do not expect to bridge is always to go up. If you

:43:08.:43:12.

take a longer time period, temperatures are definitely going

:43:13.:43:15.

up. He chooses his periods and he should not do that. Why do you say

:43:16.:43:21.

he tries to undermine scientific opinion? What do you think his

:43:22.:43:26.

motive is when you say that? You suggest an ulterior motive. Nigel

:43:27.:43:33.

will have two answer that. Used the verve undermine, as though there is

:43:34.:43:40.

some malpractice in disagreeing. He has done it in a very open way. He

:43:41.:43:44.

writes a good book about it, but I disagree with most of what is in it.

:43:45.:43:51.

What he does, he puts his argument, but he denies, as far as I can see,

:43:52.:43:55.

the evidence from the international scientific immunity. It is not just

:43:56.:43:58.

the international scientific community. The current chief

:43:59.:44:03.

scientist in Britain believes there is a problem. The previous chief

:44:04.:44:08.

scientist thought so, and his predecessor as well. The scientists

:44:09.:44:12.

are telling us we have to take this seriously. Wasn't the second part of

:44:13.:44:19.

the question, and what are we going to do about it? What can we do to

:44:20.:44:25.

reduce the risk of further disasters? Getting on to actually

:44:26.:44:30.

doing something about it will be slightly more difficult. Paul

:44:31.:44:41.

Kenny. Throw that one to me! I remember in the 1970s scientists

:44:42.:44:45.

were telling us that the ozone layer was being depleted. I remember it

:44:46.:44:49.

well. Everybody went around changing from hairspray and getting rid of

:44:50.:44:54.

fridges and all sorts of things. The idea that this has not been a long,

:44:55.:44:59.

long, long run into where we are now is not an honest as Isham. The

:45:00.:45:03.

acidity of the oceans is rising. It is man-made. -- it is not an honest

:45:04.:45:11.

position. Somebody did not leave the fridge open. The ice caps are

:45:12.:45:14.

melting. I do not have the scientific knowledge of other

:45:15.:45:20.

colleagues, but that is what I see. What we need to do about it, this is

:45:21.:45:24.

where the argument comes about how we have two adapt, what energy we

:45:25.:45:29.

use and how we use it. Nicky is right. Many car manufacturers to the

:45:30.:45:36.

decision to move to lower emissions. Really low emissions. This was

:45:37.:45:39.

because they recognised this was where the markets were going to be.

:45:40.:45:42.

That is what we have to force other people to do. In some sense, it is

:45:43.:45:47.

just good business to lower carbon emissions. It is good business to

:45:48.:45:51.

take the view that there is global warming and adjust our energy use,

:45:52.:45:56.

our types of energy. We have been talking about carbon capture for

:45:57.:46:06.

years. What about adding to fuel bills for the development of green

:46:07.:46:09.

sources and other sources, are you in favour of that? I am, but I more

:46:10.:46:14.

in favour of using some of the profits which the energy company

:46:15.:46:17.

makes, instead of taking it out of the pockets of the consumers. Let me

:46:18.:46:22.

hear from some members of our audience. The person in the blue

:46:23.:46:28.

shirt up on the left, 1st... I think these are valid points which have

:46:29.:46:34.

been raised, that I think scientific data is available only for such a

:46:35.:46:37.

small window, given how long the planet has been in existence. I am

:46:38.:46:43.

not a scientist, I am a person who works out on the water, and I think

:46:44.:46:46.

the quickest way we can make an impact is to stop carrier bags.

:46:47.:46:50.

There are so many things we can do. But that pollution. Stop carrier

:46:51.:46:59.

bags in supermarkets, how simple can it be? And you in the middle. We are

:47:00.:47:03.

missing the point. If you went to the Philippines and said, what is

:47:04.:47:08.

the single most significant thing we can do to help them survive, they

:47:09.:47:12.

are not going to be saying, carbon tax and Climate Change Act, they are

:47:13.:47:16.

going to be saying, help me build a house with proper foundations. And

:47:17.:47:25.

the person over there on the right hand side? In answer to the

:47:26.:47:30.

question, what can we do about it, things like green levies are just a

:47:31.:47:34.

drop in the ocean, when you compare it to parts of Asia and China, who

:47:35.:47:40.

are having a massive impact on CO2 emissions. Nigel Lawson, do you

:47:41.:47:45.

approve of green levies? I think the whole policy which Ed Davey is

:47:46.:47:54.

promoting is positively immoral. It is not going to work, but it is

:47:55.:48:00.

positively immoral. The gentleman towards the back there who said that

:48:01.:48:05.

what the Philippines people want is to rebuild their country, I want to

:48:06.:48:09.

get richer, because they are poor country, which has been exacerbated

:48:10.:48:14.

in a huge increase in population, fastest-growing population in the

:48:15.:48:23.

world... Ed is going to try to go to Warsaw to try to get a global

:48:24.:48:26.

agreement, but he is not going to get that. We are not expecting to

:48:27.:48:36.

get agreement next week. And they did not get one in Copenhagen, and I

:48:37.:48:40.

will tell you why. But what is the positive immorality? I will tell you

:48:41.:48:46.

what it is. The reason we use carbon -based energy, fossil fuels, is

:48:47.:48:51.

because it is far and away the cheapest form of energy, and will be

:48:52.:48:54.

for the foreseeable future, although not for ever. But for the

:48:55.:49:02.

foreseeable future. And if you move away from that, you are moving from

:49:03.:49:05.

cheaper energy to more expensive energy. It is causing enough

:49:06.:49:09.

problems in this country. The developing world, China, is not

:49:10.:49:14.

going to do that, and quite right, too. The increase in Chinese

:49:15.:49:20.

emissions in one year is bigger than the total emissions from the United

:49:21.:49:23.

Kingdom. So what we do is neither here nor there, unless there is this

:49:24.:49:29.

global agreement. The immorality is that if you are inhibiting their

:49:30.:49:34.

economic development by forcing them or persuading them to use expensive

:49:35.:49:40.

energy instead of cheaper energy, which they are not going to do, then

:49:41.:49:45.

you are going to condemn hundreds of millions of people in China and

:49:46.:49:49.

India and in the developing world to premature death, unnecessary

:49:50.:49:56.

disease, unnecessary poverty and destitution, that is what you are

:49:57.:50:00.

doing if you get them to do that. It is positively immoral. It is

:50:01.:50:06.

economic growth which will solve the problems in the Philippines and

:50:07.:50:09.

elsewhere, and that means using cheapest form of energy. So you are

:50:10.:50:15.

preventing growth in poorer parts of the world, which is immoral. We are

:50:16.:50:20.

not doing that. What we are saying is that the developed world makes

:50:21.:50:25.

the biggest cut in carbon emissions, and we need to help the poorer

:50:26.:50:29.

countries get a cleaner form of development than we have had. Let's

:50:30.:50:35.

take China, China is investing more in low carbon technology than any

:50:36.:50:39.

other country in the world. It has woken up to the problems of

:50:40.:50:42.

pollution and climate change, and I will tell you why. I have just been

:50:43.:50:46.

to China. If you go to their big cities, the air pollution in places

:50:47.:50:51.

like Beijing is dramatic, it is appalling. Nothing whatever to do

:50:52.:50:58.

with climate change humble that is not what they think. They are going

:50:59.:51:03.

to tackle this seriously. They are talking about building what they

:51:04.:51:07.

call an ecological civilisation. They are moving hard and fast on

:51:08.:51:12.

green growth, in order to try to change their whole model of growth,

:51:13.:51:17.

so as not to damage the air and the environment and the climate. You are

:51:18.:51:21.

behind the times, Nigel. If you look at China, other countries, even

:51:22.:51:26.

America, at what President Obama is now doing with Secretary Ceri, they

:51:27.:51:32.

are moving fast to try to reduce carbon emissions. That is why I

:51:33.:51:35.

think we can get a global deal, which we desperately need. We need

:51:36.:51:41.

to make sure that it enables our economies to grow, as well as

:51:42.:51:47.

developing countries. In my industry, the Chinese are working on

:51:48.:51:52.

low emission technology to sell to the rest it is not actually

:51:53.:51:54.

happening in the remote villages of China. The Chinese plan is that by

:51:55.:52:03.

2020, only 5% of their energy will be generated by wind power. And for

:52:04.:52:11.

solar power, it is less than 1%. They have been building

:52:12.:52:16.

coal-fired... If you look at the facts, they have been building

:52:17.:52:27.

coal-fired power stations at the rate of pretty well worn a month for

:52:28.:52:30.

several years, and they are continuing with that. These are not

:52:31.:52:34.

being billed for decoration, they are for use. You have been taken for

:52:35.:52:48.

a ride. There is a big change happening. Let me give you an

:52:49.:52:54.

example of solar. The costs of solar have plummeted in recent years,

:52:55.:52:58.

because China is manufacturing solar panels on a massive scale. It is

:52:59.:53:04.

brilliant for villages in sub Saharan Africa which cannot connect

:53:05.:53:06.

to the grid. They are going to have power much cheaper than some of the

:53:07.:53:10.

fossil fuels which they currently use. They are going to save money

:53:11.:53:27.

and go green. I am a materials scientist and I have been involved

:53:28.:53:31.

in developing materials to move away from CFCs, to reduce greenhouse

:53:32.:53:37.

warming within the atmosphere, and I would say that what we really need

:53:38.:53:40.

to look at, whether we have got warming or not, and I do believe it

:53:41.:53:45.

is happening, is that we reduce our need for fossil fuels, resource

:53:46.:53:50.

efficiency. Nikki will have been developing her vehicles to have

:53:51.:53:56.

light weight and parts which are efficient, and that is what we

:53:57.:54:00.

should do. China are doing it. They know that is the way to go. Do you

:54:01.:54:04.

agree with Nigel on this? And usually for me, I find myself

:54:05.:54:10.

agreeing with Ed. We have scarce resources, why would we encourage

:54:11.:54:16.

profligate use? Whether you think climate change is happening or not,

:54:17.:54:19.

surely being more efficient with what we have got makes good business

:54:20.:54:27.

sense? When the evidence is there that it is 95% likely that climate

:54:28.:54:30.

change is man-made, I want to see Britain leading in this, because of

:54:31.:54:34.

all the jobs that will come in renewable energy, from that

:54:35.:54:38.

different way of living. I do not want Nikki Tuohy cycle more, I want

:54:39.:54:42.

her to have a more sustainable way of living. I am sorry, Nigel, you

:54:43.:54:47.

are the one who is confused, if you think we can carry on as we are now

:54:48.:54:51.

without there being any consequences. Of course there will

:54:52.:54:55.

be, and it is not just the people in the Philippines who will feel it. I

:54:56.:55:06.

would like to hear from one or two more. We have got to keep doing it,

:55:07.:55:11.

we cannot pretend that nothing is happening. Your turn. I was going to

:55:12.:55:17.

say, everybody talks about emissions and industry, but farming accounts

:55:18.:55:22.

for an enormous amount of greenhouse gases. Sheep in New Zealand, cows in

:55:23.:55:28.

America, I remember learning it in geography GCSE. It is arrogant of

:55:29.:55:32.

human beings to think that there is anything that we can do which will

:55:33.:55:44.

destroy the planet. If it goes too far, the planet is going to have

:55:45.:55:49.

enough, and it will just say goodbye to us. I am not sure whether you are

:55:50.:55:58.

for cows and sheep or against them? I do not really have a political

:55:59.:56:03.

stance on that! Up there, you, with the spectacles on. Greater use of

:56:04.:56:12.

renewable energy is also about energy security, so we are not

:56:13.:56:18.

vulnerable. All prices rose massively if you years ago, and then

:56:19.:56:26.

fell again. Renewable energy is probably more stable in terms of its

:56:27.:56:29.

cost. We have got a big audience here, to any of you side with what

:56:30.:56:34.

Nigel Lawson has been saying? I agree totally. If you think that at

:56:35.:56:40.

the moment, the ice cap in the Antarctic is as big as it has ever

:56:41.:56:45.

been, and the planet, since the big bang, has been going in and out of

:56:46.:56:50.

cold, hot, wet, drive. It does what it does. We are not the dinosaurs,

:56:51.:56:56.

do we want to be extinct? We have got no choice. The planet will do

:56:57.:57:03.

what it does, and we will have no influence. So you would take no

:57:04.:57:09.

action on any front? One of those things you are talking about are

:57:10.:57:12.

great, but we cannot affect the climate. We cannot affect the

:57:13.:57:17.

change. Cleaning up the air is a great idea, renewables are a great

:57:18.:57:23.

idea, none of that is wrong, but it is arrogant to think that we can

:57:24.:57:28.

actually do anything to change the world. But scientists are telling us

:57:29.:57:32.

that there is a good possibility that we are responsible, so we could

:57:33.:57:36.

do things to limit the damage, is it not the right thing to do? The

:57:37.:57:47.

science is telling us that it is 95% likely that man is responsible for

:57:48.:57:51.

climate change, so therefore, we can do something about it. Why would we

:57:52.:57:58.

not? And who is a coastal city? We are, in Portsmouth. Why risk this

:57:59.:58:08.

city? Well, we started with Portsmouth, and we have come back to

:58:09.:58:11.

Portsmouth. Next week we are going to be in Salford, in greater

:58:12.:58:15.

Manchester. We have got a rather different kind of audience. We are

:58:16.:58:18.

looking for people who are either under 30 or over 60, so that we can

:58:19.:58:23.

see how to Geoffrey to generations you the big issues. So, we have got

:58:24.:58:32.

on the panel, at the moment, the Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, and

:58:33.:58:38.

the broadcaster Joan Bakewell. So, that is next week, in Salford. The

:58:39.:58:42.

week after that we are in Falkirk, during the week when the Scottish

:58:43.:58:48.

Government will be publishing its detailed case for independence. If

:58:49.:58:51.

you want to come to Salford and you are the right side of 30 or 60, or

:58:52.:58:56.

if you are any age and you want to come to Falkirk, you can apply via

:58:57.:59:01.

our website or call the telephone number which is on the screen. The

:59:02.:59:11.

debate continues meanwhile on BBC Radio 5 Live. Thanks to our panel,

:59:12.:59:16.

and to all of you who came here. Good night.

:59:17.:59:23.

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Portsmouth where shipbuilding is about to end with the loss of almost a thousand jobs. On the panel: Energy Secretary, Ed Davey; Shadow Business Minister for Labour, Stella Creasy; Nigel Lawson, Conservative former Chancellor; Paul Kenny, General Secretary of the GMB union; and Nikki King, director at Isuzu Trucks UK.