21/11/2013 Question Time


21/11/2013

David Dimbleby presents the topical debate from Salford, with an audience who are all either under 30 or over 60 years old. The panel includes Jeremy Hunt MP and Sadiq Khan MP.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 21/11/2013. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, we are in Salford, and welcome to Question Time.

:00:00.:00:19.

And welcome to our audience tonight, who are from different

:00:20.:00:25.

generations. One half under 30, and one half over 60. And welcome to the

:00:26.:00:28.

panel, Conservative Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, Labour's

:00:29.:00:34.

Shadow Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan, Liberal Democrat Olly Grender,

:00:35.:00:38.

adviser Tony Clegg until last year and is now in the House of Lords. --

:00:39.:00:48.

adviser to the Clague. -- Nick Clegg.

:00:49.:00:54.

You may have noticed only three panellists, because sad to say how

:00:55.:00:59.

two other panellists who we had asked to come, Daily Telegraph

:01:00.:01:04.

writer Tim Stanley and broadcaster Joan Bakewell, were held up on a

:01:05.:01:09.

train by a fire at the side of the track. They came halfway and then

:01:10.:01:14.

went back, lost for ever, I suspect. When they turn up, we will have them

:01:15.:01:21.

on. They will not be here tonight. Let's go to our first question. We

:01:22.:01:26.

get a lot of questions about the divide between the generations and

:01:27.:01:30.

the idea behind this programme is to explore those questions, and other

:01:31.:01:34.

things, in terms of these two generations, under 30 and over 60.

:01:35.:01:41.

The first from Anthony Robinson. Would the money spent on universal

:01:42.:01:44.

benefits for wealthy pensioners be better used to help young people?

:01:45.:01:55.

These are that list - free television licences, went a few, bus

:01:56.:02:00.

passes, I test is, even being exempt from the under occupancy charge, the

:02:01.:02:08.

bedroom tax. Olly Grender. I think, Anthony, yes, on the whole, they

:02:09.:02:14.

should. Where I think it gets difficult is that we work on an

:02:15.:02:18.

assumption that you all look very young and sprightly on this side of

:02:19.:02:22.

the audience, and we work on an assumption that you are baby

:02:23.:02:29.

boomers, and therefore reaping the rewards of a post-war era. This lot

:02:30.:02:37.

here? They look very healthy? They look very healthy to me. And so I

:02:38.:02:46.

think what we need to stop doing is to stop thinking of you as a

:02:47.:02:53.

homogenous group. There was a recent report in the place I have just

:02:54.:02:57.

become a member of, the House of Lords, which says that age is no

:02:58.:03:03.

longer an indicator of need. For instance, you might be quite a

:03:04.:03:07.

wealthy pensioner, or have a fewer assets, in terms of property, but be

:03:08.:03:15.

quite lonely. Or you might have property, but be pretty poor in

:03:16.:03:24.

terms of fuel poverty. Are you saying you cannot work out who to

:03:25.:03:29.

give benefits to? My preference would be that wealthy pensioners do

:03:30.:03:32.

give up bus passes. I would like to see that happen. But what I am

:03:33.:03:37.

saying is that I think it is much harder than people assume to say,

:03:38.:03:43.

you are all in this huge lump of quite wealthy. I do not think you

:03:44.:03:49.

are. Jeremy Hunt, do you think you can define who are wealthy among

:03:50.:03:52.

pensioners and then say, you do not need the money so we will give it to

:03:53.:03:58.

that lot? You can do it, but the reason we are not doing it is

:03:59.:04:01.

straightforward. David Cameron promised before the last election

:04:02.:04:04.

that he would protect pension benefits. He is someone who believes

:04:05.:04:10.

he must keep his word. Was it a wise promise and does it last until the

:04:11.:04:18.

next election? Absolutely. And after, if you win it? He believes it

:04:19.:04:24.

was right for the simple reason that we started the parliament with a

:04:25.:04:27.

huge deficit to tackle and big decisions to take us to the fairest

:04:28.:04:32.

way to tackle the deficit. We decided pensioners were different,

:04:33.:04:36.

because they had passed the point in their life where they are able to

:04:37.:04:39.

earn more money to make up for any shortfalls, so we should -- thought

:04:40.:04:43.

it was right to make that decision. The worry is that if you start

:04:44.:04:48.

chipping away at some entitlements, others may follow. We have been true

:04:49.:04:52.

to our word, kept our promise on protecting the state pension and

:04:53.:04:56.

pension benefits. In a very difficult period, that shows our

:04:57.:04:59.

commitment to the people who would find it otherwise most difficult to

:05:00.:05:05.

make up for their earnings. I have to admit, I am quite confused why we

:05:06.:05:10.

constantly seem to be coming back to this question of whether these

:05:11.:05:15.

benefits should be taken away from wealthier pensioners. Would this not

:05:16.:05:21.

have been done years ago if it was easy? I understand it would be

:05:22.:05:25.

difficult to administer the means test and give it to pensioners. I

:05:26.:05:30.

think we should maybe stop dividing the groups against each other.

:05:31.:05:33.

Eventually, young people are going to be pensioners, too. If we pay

:05:34.:05:37.

into the system, we should expect something back.

:05:38.:05:45.

Didn't David Cameron also promised not to top-down reorganise the NHS?

:05:46.:05:55.

I think that is what is called a rhetorical question. The man on the

:05:56.:06:02.

far left. Perhaps MPs should lead by example. There are MPs who have been

:06:03.:06:11.

claiming gas and electric rounds on their expenses. Perhaps they could

:06:12.:06:17.

donate that to pensioners. -- gas and electric allowance on expenses.

:06:18.:06:24.

The definition of a wealthy pensioner now seems to be taken as

:06:25.:06:27.

anybody who pays tax at the standard rate. That means they have an income

:06:28.:06:34.

of slightly over ?10,500. That is a ludicrous mark. Where do you get

:06:35.:06:42.

that from? Because the government do not like to means test, that is

:06:43.:06:45.

where the line is likely to be drawn. I do not want to pick the old

:06:46.:06:51.

against the young, but I think the question goes to a root issue, which

:06:52.:06:55.

is that the British promise basically is that those who are the

:06:56.:06:59.

next generation will do better than the current generation. The way that

:07:00.:07:02.

the social contract works is that it is a pyramid where those at the

:07:03.:07:06.

bottom who are working pay tax which goes towards your pension and you

:07:07.:07:11.

get out what you put in. There is a big Rob, which is that this

:07:12.:07:14.

generation will, for the first time in generations, the less well-off

:07:15.:07:19.

than that generation. I am an MP in London. The average age of a

:07:20.:07:23.

first-time property buyer in London is 38. We can have a discussion

:07:24.:07:28.

about some universal benefits staying universal. The pension. I

:07:29.:07:32.

think the bus pass is very important. Many older people need

:07:33.:07:36.

the bus passed to see friends and family, it addresses loneliness and

:07:37.:07:43.

get them out of the house. But Richard Branson and Alan Sugar do

:07:44.:07:46.

not need it but are entitled to it, which is ridiculous. Richard Branson

:07:47.:07:52.

does not use his bus pass and we are not paying for it. If you means test

:07:53.:07:56.

and shimmers for the bus pass, they will not apply for it. They will be

:07:57.:08:00.

stuck at home and it will be a huge cost to all of us. Rather than

:08:01.:08:05.

pitting you against them, make sure these guys have a future. Get them

:08:06.:08:09.

to work on the get them paying tax, get them paying national insurance

:08:10.:08:18.

and rebuild the social contract. The problem we have with the bus passes

:08:19.:08:22.

is that if the people did not use them, the buses would be empty. They

:08:23.:08:26.

still have to run, they have a schedule to keep. They run whether

:08:27.:08:30.

there are people on the bus or not will stop why take it from people

:08:31.:08:37.

who could use it and fill the buses? I agree with Sadiq Khan on this. We

:08:38.:08:42.

pay for bus passes for those who need them and we do not end up

:08:43.:08:46.

paying for the richer pensioners anyway. I also agree that I think,

:08:47.:08:51.

without wanting to dispute the premise of this programme, David, I

:08:52.:08:55.

actually do not think there is any point in trying to set one age group

:08:56.:08:59.

against another. All young people have parents and grandparents who

:09:00.:09:02.

they want to see through their old age with dignity and respect. And

:09:03.:09:07.

all grandparents want opportunities for their grandchildren. Everyone

:09:08.:09:12.

wants to make sure we have a fair society where we take the right

:09:13.:09:16.

decisions for the long-term, where everyone gets those opportunities.

:09:17.:09:19.

We can do that, but it means difficult decisions in a difficult

:09:20.:09:22.

period, when you have challenges ahead, as we all have, and those

:09:23.:09:29.

challenges do change. I think one of the problems is that if you got on

:09:30.:09:36.

the housing ladder at the age of these people and were lucky

:09:37.:09:45.

enough... Which people? The older generation. If you have built up a

:09:46.:09:49.

great deal of equity, and it is so much harder now to get into

:09:50.:09:53.

housing, and yet that is the basis, in the UK, unfortunately, of a lot

:09:54.:09:59.

of wealth. It is very hard. What we would need to do is to have quite a

:10:00.:10:05.

good and lengthy discussion about how the older people give up some of

:10:06.:10:08.

the equity, or release it to the younger people. For once, I agree

:10:09.:10:18.

with the whole panel. It is not their fault. It is not our fault. It

:10:19.:10:23.

is your fault. We were not the ones who sold off the council houses. We

:10:24.:10:31.

were not the ones who promised no Jewish in fees and as soon as they

:10:32.:10:34.

got anywhere near government sold out everybody who voted for them.

:10:35.:10:41.

You are the ones who did it. It is your fault, isn't it? All right, you

:10:42.:10:52.

made your point. The big question to grapple with, and we should be proud

:10:53.:10:57.

of this, we are living much older than we were historically. There are

:10:58.:11:02.

big questions about social care. We will be looking after our parents,

:11:03.:11:07.

because they will live longer. Also, people who are older will have to

:11:08.:11:10.

work longer. There are questions about when pension entitlement

:11:11.:11:14.

should kick in. It is an issue for all of us because we will be old one

:11:15.:11:18.

day as well. The idea of clashing generations is not the way. But

:11:19.:11:23.

tinkering with bus passes, which is a huge lifeline for many pensioners,

:11:24.:11:26.

is not the source of addressing these problems. These are big

:11:27.:11:32.

questions and need big answers. There are many pensioners who want

:11:33.:11:35.

to give up some of their benefits and have made that clear. You do not

:11:36.:11:40.

have to take the bus pass, the winter fuel allowance. You do not

:11:41.:11:44.

have to do any of these things. When you say there are people who want to

:11:45.:11:50.

give up... There are people who are saying they do not want these things

:11:51.:11:54.

and would like to give them up. Who are they? Maybe you are one of

:11:55.:12:04.

them. No. I agree, who defines a wealthy pensioner.

:12:05.:12:10.

I pay a small amount of income tax, but am I a wealthy pensioner? Could

:12:11.:12:21.

you define a wealthy pensioner? The government can do these things. The

:12:22.:12:27.

sums are much smaller. I have looked at these sums and they are much

:12:28.:12:30.

smaller than you might think. Usually, most people's definition of

:12:31.:12:34.

wealthy is the super wealthy. Actually, it does not have a huge

:12:35.:12:38.

impact because they are often not claiming benefits in the first

:12:39.:12:43.

place. The problem is that we have to recognise that we have a very

:12:44.:12:47.

expensive benefits there will, and we have to take some difficult

:12:48.:12:51.

decisions the fairest way to deal with it. And is it fair to do what

:12:52.:12:58.

David Cameron is proposing for the next manifesto, abolishing benefits

:12:59.:13:06.

for those under 25? Saving how much? What he has said is that everyone

:13:07.:13:11.

under 25 should be earning all learning, and I think that is

:13:12.:13:15.

absolutely right. It is completely wrong that someone can leave school,

:13:16.:13:20.

sign-on, find a house or flat to rent, get housing benefit and then

:13:21.:13:26.

start a life on the dole. I think it is immoral. We need a society that

:13:27.:13:30.

does not allow that. If you look at Holland, they do not allow anyone to

:13:31.:13:34.

claim benefit under the age of 27, and they have half the youth

:13:35.:13:39.

unemployment that we have. They find a combination of studying and

:13:40.:13:43.

working. That is a much better start for people. Are you in favour of

:13:44.:13:53.

that policy? No. It is shocking that it is coming at a time to tell

:13:54.:13:56.

people to earn, or to learn, when the minimum wage is so far below the

:13:57.:14:03.

then -- the living wage. Zero our contracts and the failure to provide

:14:04.:14:07.

people with work are skyrocketing, and fees for education have gone

:14:08.:14:12.

through the roof. So earning and learning is becoming increasingly

:14:13.:14:14.

difficult and you are telling people they have no safety net if they

:14:15.:14:19.

fail. You are against abolishing the benefit. Let's move on because we

:14:20.:14:24.

have a lot of questions. Are you in favour or against the proposal of

:14:25.:14:28.

under 25-year-olds not getting benefit? I am against it. I am

:14:29.:14:35.

against sweeping generalisations about young people. Many young

:14:36.:14:41.

people do not get a good job. Why does the government not focus on

:14:42.:14:45.

those who do not go to university, giving them vocational skills to get

:14:46.:14:50.

a proper job? Why not put pressure on big businesses to provide

:14:51.:14:53.

apprenticeships for young people? The way to reduce the benefit bill

:14:54.:14:57.

is not to cut and fits but to get these guys into work, give them

:14:58.:15:00.

apprenticeships, the skills they need. There are double the number of

:15:01.:15:07.

apprenticeships than under Labour. You are telling stuff that is not

:15:08.:15:13.

right. There are almost 1 million young people unemployed. In the last

:15:14.:15:16.

quarter, the number of young people unemployed for more than a year went

:15:17.:15:21.

up by 7000. There are record numbers not in employment, education or

:15:22.:15:25.

training. They are desperate for education, desperate for employment.

:15:26.:15:32.

They are in the right place, because in Salford, apprenticeship went up

:15:33.:15:36.

90% since Labour left the government. You cut education

:15:37.:15:41.

maintenance allowance, treble Jewish and fees, so do not be surprised if

:15:42.:15:45.

these guys do not go to university or college.

:15:46.:16:01.

We have one and a half million apprenticeships starting, double

:16:02.:16:11.

under Labour. We are doing those who are not in education or employment,

:16:12.:16:15.

that has gone down by 50,000, we are doing the things helping young

:16:16.:16:19.

people. That is what counts. We have got a lot of questions.

:16:20.:16:28.

You can join in the debate from home. The Red Button will let you

:16:29.:16:47.

see what others are saying. Catherine Johnson, please.

:16:48.:16:54.

If clever banks and bankers in London, and ethical banks mess up,

:16:55.:17:07.

who can Manchester girl trust? It is shocking, the revelations at

:17:08.:17:15.

the co-operative bank, and what has happened over the last few years.

:17:16.:17:22.

Had things been different they would have taken 700 Lloyd's branches as

:17:23.:17:33.

well, I welcome the enquiries. The Treasury Select Committee will be

:17:34.:17:36.

doing an enquiry, also the Financial Conduct Authority. It is about

:17:37.:17:46.

mutuals, not-for-profit, getting involved in provision for funeral

:17:47.:17:53.

services, legal services, grocery stores, financial advice. Many

:17:54.:17:56.

people back with it because it is ethical. When you bear in mind who

:17:57.:18:01.

is bailing them out, people banking with them are concerned. We are very

:18:02.:18:09.

proud of our association with them. Is it safe to bank with?

:18:10.:18:18.

It is not for me to say. We have changed the way banks are

:18:19.:18:22.

regulated. The fact they have not stepped in and gives me a source of

:18:23.:18:26.

confidence. I am pleased we are looking into the affairs. To make a

:18:27.:18:32.

sweeping assertion against the movement based on the actions of one

:18:33.:18:37.

ex-chairman and what happened is very unfair. In this part of the

:18:38.:18:42.

country in particular the co-operative movement doing a huge

:18:43.:18:51.

source of good for the population. What can Manchester girl do?

:18:52.:18:59.

If you have got savings, they are safe. The focus from the Prime

:19:00.:19:06.

Minister should not be to score party political points, but making

:19:07.:19:10.

job or worse, savers and investors are reassured their money is safe.

:19:11.:19:28.

I agree with him. Mutuals are a brilliant concept. In a period where

:19:29.:19:35.

people are mistrusting banks, the sort of trust you get with someone

:19:36.:19:40.

like John Lewis, it gives you confidence in an organisation and we

:19:41.:19:44.

should be encouraging different ownership models. We are doing a

:19:45.:19:47.

study to see if there is anything we can learn in the NHS about the

:19:48.:19:52.

mutuals movement. We should be thinking about the nearly 8 million

:19:53.:20:00.

individual holders, most of these people are not wealthy, it is their

:20:01.:20:05.

life savings invested in something they trusted, they got a dividend

:20:06.:20:09.

last year, they haven't had one this year. They are wondering how on

:20:10.:20:19.

earth the reverend flowers -- Reverend Flowers managed to become

:20:20.:20:26.

chairman. There have been a lot of newspaper headlines but how can

:20:27.:20:30.

somebody with so little knowledge of banking got to run a really

:20:31.:20:36.

important into station -- institution? I hope, we are clearing

:20:37.:20:45.

up a lot of mess after the banking crisis, but it does look like he got

:20:46.:20:49.

that job because of his connections, some of them look like political

:20:50.:20:54.

connections and I hope the Labour Party will be transparent. Their

:20:55.:21:00.

responsibility is to those 8 million bondholders to make sure we get to

:21:01.:21:03.

the truth they have a secure future for their savings and this can never

:21:04.:21:08.

happen again. Is it a cheap political point to attach blame to

:21:09.:21:12.

Labour? In fairness there were big

:21:13.:21:17.

connections between the Labour Party and the Co-op bank. Labour has still

:21:18.:21:28.

got its loans, the least it could do is be honest and transparent.

:21:29.:21:35.

Would this have ever come to light if his past haven't been exposed by

:21:36.:21:44.

a national newspaper? It is possible the answer is no. We

:21:45.:21:53.

still rely on our newspapers as thriving and vibrant and exposing

:21:54.:21:59.

organisations. For instance, we are seeing the trial, the Murdoch trial,

:22:00.:22:08.

the trial looking at the telephone hacking, and that would not have

:22:09.:22:13.

been exposed if it hadn't been for some of the newspapers. I think, as

:22:14.:22:20.

a long-term customer of the Co-op myself, I'm disappointed in all of

:22:21.:22:30.

this. What I really ask is how on earth after the banking crisis we

:22:31.:22:36.

had in 2007, why is there still a kind of regulatory system that isn't

:22:37.:22:40.

picking up these things? The one thing I would say is if we are going

:22:41.:22:46.

to have for enquiries about what happened in the past, I am not

:22:47.:22:50.

overly interested in that now, but what I am interested in is saving a

:22:51.:22:56.

great bank, it is the kind of bank we need rather than payday lenders.

:22:57.:23:07.

Mr Hunt likes winning political points with regards to blaming the

:23:08.:23:13.

Labour Party, perhaps we should start looking more into the

:23:14.:23:17.

financial organisations that made significant payments to the

:23:18.:23:21.

Conservative party and their dodgy appointments? Do you agree? He

:23:22.:23:37.

cannot stop himself. They have given no donations to the Labour Party.

:23:38.:23:43.

Recommendations were made which is implemented now would have uncovered

:23:44.:23:49.

some of this. Last year the Chancellor and the Treasury

:23:50.:23:52.

ministers spent a great deal of time lobbying Brussels to change the

:23:53.:23:57.

rules and persuade the Co-op bank to take over the Lloyds branches, the

:23:58.:24:01.

last three years, under your watch. Stop making cheap points about our

:24:02.:24:06.

connection with the Co-op bank. We are very proud with our link with

:24:07.:24:16.

the co-operative movement. Go on, Jeremy.

:24:17.:24:22.

The Chancellor lobbied on behalf of the Co-op rank which is a donor to

:24:23.:24:31.

the Labour Party. You say it doesn't lend money. What I actually said was

:24:32.:24:47.

that we need transparency from Labour to get to the bottom of this.

:24:48.:24:51.

Nearly 8 million bondholders are worrying about what will happen to

:24:52.:24:55.

their savings and we need to make sure we find out the truth stop that

:24:56.:24:59.

is all we are saying. I want to go onto a question that

:25:00.:25:06.

affects the generations we have. Let's move on. A question from Paul

:25:07.:25:11.

George. What can the government do about the

:25:12.:25:19.

housing market when house prices continue to rise? This affects the

:25:20.:25:24.

younger generation who cannot get on to the housing ladder, average wages

:25:25.:25:32.

decreasing, house prices going up. If you look at how the world has

:25:33.:25:36.

changed, when I left university until now, one of the biggest

:25:37.:25:41.

changes is it is so much harder to buy a house. There are other things

:25:42.:25:45.

that have got better for young people, the technology revolution

:25:46.:25:49.

has made huge strides, but this is very difficult thing because

:25:50.:25:52.

everybody wants to own a house rightly so. There are some big

:25:53.:25:57.

challenges if we want to get this right. We need to get new housing

:25:58.:26:03.

starts going again. They have got back to their 2008 levels but it has

:26:04.:26:09.

been a struggle. We need to look at planning laws, and my party, the

:26:10.:26:14.

government, made some controversial changes to make sure we do start

:26:15.:26:18.

building houses. The biggest betrayal of young people would be if

:26:19.:26:23.

we said we have got our houses now, we will not do what it takes to help

:26:24.:26:27.

young people get a foot on the housing ladder. The third thing is

:26:28.:26:31.

access to finance. That is why pay help to buy scheme has been

:26:32.:26:40.

significant, helping 75 families every day at their home. It is true

:26:41.:26:45.

it is still a real struggle. We have to do everything we can. It is

:26:46.:26:50.

something that hasn't changed between the generations, that they

:26:51.:26:55.

desire to own a house. Every government has a responsibility to

:26:56.:26:58.

do what it can to help people take that step.

:26:59.:27:03.

The man at the back. Part of the problem is the Labour

:27:04.:27:09.

government of the 90s set a target of sending 50% of young people into

:27:10.:27:14.

higher education. These young people cannot afford to buy a house because

:27:15.:27:18.

they are coming out of university, there are not the graduate jobs they

:27:19.:27:21.

need, and they are having to take jobs on a much lower level, less

:27:22.:27:26.

pay, in order to be able to survive so they cannot save up the money to

:27:27.:27:31.

buy a house. That is something the previous government have two out of

:27:32.:27:43.

four. -- they have to answer for. So roughly speaking 7% of that age

:27:44.:27:46.

group went to university, the older group. I am proud we wanted to have

:27:47.:27:53.

50% going to university. We have all benefited from a university

:27:54.:27:58.

education. The crisis in the housing market. Besides Ollie. -- Olly. Last

:27:59.:28:20.

year there were as many housing completes as the 1920s. We need to

:28:21.:28:29.

build more houses. The older side.

:28:30.:28:38.

There is a shortage of land yet there are property developers

:28:39.:28:41.

holding onto land for years and years waiting to maximise the prices

:28:42.:28:44.

when they should be legislation that makes them start building within 12

:28:45.:28:52.

months of buying the land. Do you own a house yourself?

:28:53.:29:01.

Yes. Your children, grandchildren? My children have got on the housing

:29:02.:29:15.

ladder. How old are they? 44, 42. They are not here on this site of

:29:16.:29:21.

the audience? This woman here. There is currently lots of three-bedroom

:29:22.:29:26.

houses empty because people affected by the bedroom tax, because nobody

:29:27.:29:31.

can move into them because they cannot afford them.

:29:32.:29:40.

The help to buy scheme is a bit scary because you are giving more

:29:41.:29:45.

people who cannot afford a house more income, jobs are not certain so

:29:46.:29:49.

why would you give more people access to more money when the

:29:50.:29:56.

economy is not stable, the income is not enough to pay the mortgage?

:29:57.:30:02.

On the help to buy scheme, there are much more checks and balances than

:30:03.:30:07.

they used to be. They used to be hundreds of schemes that would lend

:30:08.:30:11.

money at 93% of the value of the house, and it is something like 40

:30:12.:30:23.

3% -- 43 products. I know what happened in Manchester is that a

:30:24.:30:28.

whole load of single by Jim Holmes were bulldozed -- single bedroom

:30:29.:30:38.

homes. A lot of people in Manchester have been evicted as tenants. At the

:30:39.:30:43.

same time as there is money available to pay them to keep them

:30:44.:30:49.

in tenancies, unlike stop what, where tenants have been evicted

:30:50.:30:55.

under this system -- unlike Stockport. There is central

:30:56.:30:59.

government funding of ?180 million that can help people through this.

:31:00.:31:02.

If I can just say about the housing thing, I was really interested to

:31:03.:31:09.

see Ed Balls today was admitting Labour kind of screwed up on this.

:31:10.:31:15.

When I was working at backward shelter -- Shelter trying to lobby

:31:16.:31:20.

the government to build houses we got nowhere. It is good to hear Ed

:31:21.:31:26.

Balls finally admit housing was a big failure by the Labour

:31:27.:31:31.

government. I think it was. We are building and have finally managed to

:31:32.:31:34.

start building more affordable homes. For the first time we are

:31:35.:31:39.

getting more social housing after it was sold off by successive Labour

:31:40.:31:51.

and Tory governments. That is not my experience. What about what Ed Balls

:31:52.:32:01.

said? He said we should have built more houses when we were in

:32:02.:32:11.

government. We had to bring those appalling properties and social

:32:12.:32:13.

housing up to decent standard. We should have got more housing but we

:32:14.:32:18.

did not. If we build more houses, it means more builders getting into

:32:19.:32:22.

work, paying National Insurance and tack 's. We need to have a law that

:32:23.:32:30.

says you use it or you lose it. We say to property developers hoarding

:32:31.:32:34.

the land, unless you use the development plans you have to build

:32:35.:32:37.

a housing, we will take it away from you and build on the land ourselves.

:32:38.:32:45.

You mentioned earlier that you are getting to the stage where people in

:32:46.:32:48.

their 30s are only able to get onto the housing ladder for the first

:32:49.:32:53.

time. I was 30 when I got onto the housing ladder and I entered the

:32:54.:32:56.

housing market a mortgage rate of 10%. And the reason why I did that,

:32:57.:33:05.

and a lot of others did, too, was a simple fact of mobility. We were

:33:06.:33:08.

willing to go where the job market was. I was caught up in the

:33:09.:33:12.

north-east and had to move to London to get a job in order to get onto

:33:13.:33:18.

the housing market. I do not see too much of that mobility in the

:33:19.:33:22.

marketplace. Our Usain young people will not move? -- are you saying? We

:33:23.:33:37.

do move. We move around all the time. If where we go to university

:33:38.:33:41.

there are not jobs, we have to go to another city. We move around. You do

:33:42.:33:45.

not necessarily see it, but we do it. Surely basic economics tells us

:33:46.:33:56.

when demand outstrips supply, the price goes up. Jeremy has already

:33:57.:34:00.

told us we are not building enough houses. At the same time, they are

:34:01.:34:04.

making it easier for people to get mortgages. Prices go up. What do you

:34:05.:34:11.

think the effect will be on this generation, who cannot get on the

:34:12.:34:20.

housing ladder until 38? Maybe if we adopt a more European approach. In

:34:21.:34:31.

Germany, more people rent. Isn't it going to turn into a system

:34:32.:34:35.

where we end up renting and the rich get richer and we put more money

:34:36.:34:38.

into their pockets because we cannot get into the housing market? Do you

:34:39.:34:47.

have any aspiration? I cannot afford to enter the housing market at the

:34:48.:34:53.

moment so I will be forced to rent. I do not understand where the space

:34:54.:34:57.

for these houses will be. We currently have an immigration

:34:58.:35:03.

problem, a lack of job is. You are lending money to people, which seems

:35:04.:35:06.

a statistics game for the government to make itself look better.

:35:07.:35:11.

Eventually it will crash because the house prices will go down. Because

:35:12.:35:15.

there are more houses, the equity will do appreciate and it will crash

:35:16.:35:19.

eventually again. I have no intention of even wanting to get

:35:20.:35:25.

into that. We have two very different views on that. I think the

:35:26.:35:29.

answer is that we need a bit of both. We need to increase supply,

:35:30.:35:33.

but also to make sure people can afford it when you increase supply.

:35:34.:35:37.

We need to be brave and accept we will have to do that throughout the

:35:38.:35:42.

country. I think it is perfectly possible to increase supply and

:35:43.:35:46.

protect a beautiful countryside. I think there are lots of places where

:35:47.:35:50.

we could be more imaginative. The NHS is, for example, sitting on a

:35:51.:35:54.

lot of land which we could be much quicker at disposing of, and some of

:35:55.:35:59.

that could be appropriate for housing. But I think that at the

:36:00.:36:04.

heart of this is responsibility for those of us who did manage to get

:36:05.:36:08.

onto the housing ladder when houses were a lot cheaper to think about

:36:09.:36:11.

doing what it takes for people who are much younger, who have the same

:36:12.:36:17.

dreams and aspirations we had. It does not work and it is not

:36:18.:36:22.

acceptable to sit tight. I think we have to say, what are we going to

:36:23.:36:26.

do? Tackling this from all directions is the only way to do

:36:27.:36:31.

that. I want to look my children in the eye and say, I did what it took

:36:32.:36:36.

to help you enjoy the same ambitions and aspirations that I had. 13,500

:36:37.:36:43.

houses which have permission to build in Salford, but nobody is

:36:44.:36:48.

building, and the number is going up by about 2000 each year. Permission

:36:49.:36:52.

is being given but nobody is building. Why not? Profit. What can

:36:53.:37:05.

the government do? That is where the Help to Buy scheme can make a

:37:06.:37:08.

difference. Young people would be confident that they could buy the

:37:09.:37:12.

houses, and people would be confident they could build them and

:37:13.:37:19.

make a profit. You can relax planning permission. If they do not

:37:20.:37:25.

think it is profitable, they will not build. One problem is land

:37:26.:37:32.

banking. Second, it is people not having confidence in the economy and

:37:33.:37:36.

not wanting to invest in bricks and mortar. We have to use whatever

:37:37.:37:41.

levers we have two persuade them. Olly Grender is right, after a

:37:42.:37:45.

period of time, you could revoke the permission after five years. I am

:37:46.:37:50.

saying, let's go further. Unless you start building, we will take away

:37:51.:37:54.

the permission that you have. We can do it and we should. That will force

:37:55.:38:02.

them to start building houses. Onto another question. Alice Sugden,

:38:03.:38:09.

please. Will the reforms to the NHS do enough to prevent serious

:38:10.:38:12.

failings in care such as at Stafford Hospital? Olly Grender. This week,

:38:13.:38:24.

what the government has done is publish some responses to the report

:38:25.:38:34.

into Mid Staffs. I am sure Jeremy Hunt will go through quite a feud in

:38:35.:38:39.

detail, but I will look at one in particular which was actually in the

:38:40.:38:44.

Lib Dem manifesto. It is about a UK of candour. I see this as incredibly

:38:45.:38:49.

important. This is about honesty from people. When I hand my child to

:38:50.:39:00.

a nursery, I expect all of the staff to be absolutely straight with me if

:39:01.:39:04.

anything has gone wrong. It is exact in the same, as an elderly relative

:39:05.:39:08.

goes into hospital, you want to know there is an absolute expectation on

:39:09.:39:13.

both the organisation and the individuals in the organisation.

:39:14.:39:18.

That goes without saying but how would what happened at Staffordshire

:39:19.:39:23.

hospital be prevented? It does not go without saying. It goes without

:39:24.:39:28.

saying that you think it should happen. I think that is one of the

:39:29.:39:33.

reforms that will prevent things like this in future. I am confident

:39:34.:39:40.

that will happen. I think, in a way, what we need to do is to start

:39:41.:39:48.

celebrating the whistle-blowers. This is exactly the kind of thing we

:39:49.:39:52.

expect and want, people to be honest when something has gone wrong. This

:39:53.:39:57.

is exactly what did not happen in Mid Staffs. On this one particular

:39:58.:40:05.

point, I have confidence. I have confidence in the others as well. We

:40:06.:40:15.

had better not list the others! One of the reforms will criminalise

:40:16.:40:17.

doctors and nurses for wilful neglect. Will that create a culture

:40:18.:40:23.

of openness in the NHS, or a culture of fear? One of the shocking things

:40:24.:40:36.

about what happened at Mid Staffs hospital was that no nurses and

:40:37.:40:40.

doctors were brought to book for a very long time. In extreme cases, I

:40:41.:40:45.

think it is right, if someone deliberately harms a patient. Lots

:40:46.:40:49.

of doctors and nurses have said they would not want a doctor who

:40:50.:40:52.

deliberately harms a patient not to meet full force of the law. What

:40:53.:40:57.

doctor or nurse would ever agree with that. That is not the heart of

:40:58.:41:02.

the change. The heart of the changes something different, making it

:41:03.:41:07.

easier for people to speak out by giving them protection they have not

:41:08.:41:12.

had before. I meet many nurses and doctors who see things they worry

:41:13.:41:17.

about but then think what will happen if I speak out gesture more

:41:18.:41:21.

we need to change the culture so everyone understands that we all

:41:22.:41:27.

want people to speak out. Her point was about criminalising them. Are

:41:28.:41:32.

you happy with his answer? Does it answer your point? I think by

:41:33.:41:39.

criminalising people, other people will be scared to criminalise their

:41:40.:41:45.

colleagues. So they will not whistle-blowers if they think that

:41:46.:41:53.

-- they will be charged. In order for the duty of candour to really

:41:54.:41:57.

work, it depends on the culture of the organisation. It really does

:41:58.:42:02.

depend on that going from the top throughout the organisation.

:42:03.:42:10.

Otherwise a blame culture enters. What we want, and I agree that it is

:42:11.:42:15.

different, those prosecutions are different because it is where harm

:42:16.:42:19.

has been done deliberately. But where there is a mistake, we have to

:42:20.:42:24.

have it so that staff can put up their hand and say, I have messed

:42:25.:42:28.

up. I am sorry, we have to put it right, but also we have to learn

:42:29.:42:33.

from it. It is that culture of learning running through the

:42:34.:42:35.

organisations that I think will make the big change.

:42:36.:42:46.

On the point of criminalising neglect, I am going to qualify as a

:42:47.:42:51.

doctor in a couple of months. I am wondering why is it OK for other

:42:52.:42:54.

professions when they make a mistake in their job not to facing class

:42:55.:42:58.

oration, but it is a completely different story for medical

:42:59.:43:02.

professionals? -- not to face incarceration. If you deliberately

:43:03.:43:10.

harm anyone in any profession you are subject to the law. This is

:43:11.:43:15.

changing what is in common law and putting it in statute. This

:43:16.:43:19.

gentleman made the point that is right. This is not about trying to

:43:20.:43:23.

create more criminals, but a culture of openness. You have one of the

:43:24.:43:29.

best hospitals in the country here, which is the safest hospital outside

:43:30.:43:32.

London. They have done that because they have an inspiring Chief

:43:33.:43:37.

Executive and chief nurse, who have created a culture where the staff

:43:38.:43:41.

feel able to speak out. That is because they think if they talk

:43:42.:43:44.

about an error, something is going to happen and someone will learn

:43:45.:43:50.

from it. There is also another in Greater Manchester, greater

:43:51.:43:54.

Manchester mental health hospital trust. I happen to be on the board.

:43:55.:44:05.

We have that culture going. I think the Francis Report is a very good

:44:06.:44:10.

report. Unlike Olly Grender and Jeremy, I think we should implement

:44:11.:44:17.

all of the recommendations in full. Jeremy talks a great talk, but one

:44:18.:44:21.

of the problems is that the evidence is that since his party joined a

:44:22.:44:26.

coalition government, the number of nurses, and my source is the NHS

:44:27.:44:30.

information Centre today, the number of nurses is down by 6642 since May

:44:31.:44:38.

of 2010. One of the main findings of the report was that staffing levels

:44:39.:44:43.

are so low that doctors and nurses led to inadequate care and lead to

:44:44.:44:46.

bad things happening in Mid Staffordshire. One other thing is

:44:47.:44:50.

that you can have a criminal law about wilfulness collect and

:44:51.:44:55.

publicise the ratio of staff on wards, but unless you give hospitals

:44:56.:45:00.

the resources and the nurses, it is talk and no action. That is what

:45:01.:45:11.

needs to happen, Jeremy. Equally robust figures which you did not

:45:12.:45:14.

mention are that over the last three years we have had 6600 more doctors

:45:15.:45:20.

in the NHS. We have 1200 more midwives, 1000 more health visitors.

:45:21.:45:26.

Yes, I am worried about the nurses going down, not in hospitals, but in

:45:27.:45:29.

the community. District nursing numbers have gone down. That is

:45:30.:45:33.

wrong and that is why we are making the changes this week, which means

:45:34.:45:37.

everyone has to publish the number of nurses, so we know if there is

:45:38.:45:44.

safe staffing. You don't actually have anywhere to go, because your

:45:45.:45:50.

party opposed the public enquiry. You did not want to have the

:45:51.:45:57.

enquiry. It is true that Andy Burnham decided not to have a public

:45:58.:46:01.

enquiry and we decided to have it. That is why we are making, adopting

:46:02.:46:06.

so many of these recommendations today. What has happened as a result

:46:07.:46:11.

of that enquiry you did not want? Over the last year, hospitals have

:46:12.:46:15.

decided to recruit 4000 more nurses than they were planning 12 months

:46:16.:46:20.

ago. I think the climate is changing. I agree we need safe

:46:21.:46:25.

staffing in our wards, but it is not about one number for every ward. It

:46:26.:46:30.

is about a ward by ward basis, transparency and people feeling

:46:31.:46:33.

comfortable to speak out when they see something wrong.

:46:34.:46:39.

Several years ago the NHS carried out one of the biggest job

:46:40.:46:48.

evaluation surveys. Many nurses were put onto management grades which is

:46:49.:46:51.

why a lot of nurses disappeared, on the face of it. Now a ward sister

:46:52.:46:56.

isn't a ward sister, she is called a ward manager so she is not counted

:46:57.:47:02.

in the nursing numbers. So the numbers are understated? We may not

:47:03.:47:10.

have lost that number of nurses. You can talk about statistics all

:47:11.:47:16.

night, but the question was about whether the reforms the government

:47:17.:47:20.

are implementing will help. One of the root causes of the report said

:47:21.:47:28.

the management at Stafford Hospital were pushing to meet government

:47:29.:47:32.

targets and to try and get foundation status, that is why they

:47:33.:47:35.

were ignoring patients, they were more focused on getting targets. The

:47:36.:47:43.

question is, will the reforms help, wouldn't it be better removing

:47:44.:47:47.

politicians from the NHS, no offence intended, so there cannot be this

:47:48.:47:52.

constant reorganisation and change going on?

:47:53.:47:57.

We have got to go onto another point.

:47:58.:48:07.

It is about ensuring the care is wrapped around the individual. That

:48:08.:48:12.

is why the Care Bill is so important, it breaks down these

:48:13.:48:18.

politically led institutions and places them wrapped around, so that

:48:19.:48:25.

one person gets the dignity, attention, care and personal

:48:26.:48:31.

attention they need. That is the foundation of the bill we are taking

:48:32.:48:37.

three Parliament. The definition of success was meeting waiting times

:48:38.:48:41.

target and being in financial balance and we have set up this year

:48:42.:48:45.

a new chief inspector of hospitals who is going round, it will not be

:48:46.:48:48.

possible to be a good or outstanding hospital unless you have good or

:48:49.:48:55.

outstanding compassionate care. Patients need to be at the heart of

:48:56.:49:02.

what hospitals do. Jeremy talks the good talk. Patients, if they are at

:49:03.:49:08.

the heart of things, means not waiting more than four hours for

:49:09.:49:13.

accident and emergency, not queueing in an ambulance waiting to get in,

:49:14.:49:19.

not waiting for days rather than being at home. That is the problem

:49:20.:49:23.

with the ?3 billion wasted on a reorganisation nobody wanted. Let's

:49:24.:49:35.

have a question from Kelly Parker. With the UK jobless rate falling to

:49:36.:49:39.

a three-year low last week, why is it that youth unemployment remains

:49:40.:49:43.

above 20%? Lots of reasons. One of the things

:49:44.:49:49.

we had when we were in government is a guarantee for young people, if you

:49:50.:49:54.

were a graduate out of work for six months you will be guaranteed a job.

:49:55.:49:58.

The government idea of getting young people into work is just to get them

:49:59.:50:03.

stacking shelves, it is in a good -- it is inadequate. You need to give

:50:04.:50:07.

them skills making them attractive to employee. Apprenticeship schemes

:50:08.:50:13.

will be useful to the employer, the young person. Focus on 50% who don't

:50:14.:50:18.

go to university, vocational skills that will make them desirable to

:50:19.:50:23.

employers. Give young people the skills to make them attractive to

:50:24.:50:27.

employers. One of the great tragedies is the wasted talent

:50:28.:50:31.

amongst young people. I am in favour of a future jobs guarantee for a

:50:32.:50:35.

young person, if you are out of work for a year we will guarantee you a

:50:36.:50:39.

job with an employer, we will subsidise that, so they get benefits

:50:40.:50:49.

from the government, you will stop paying taxes, national insurance.

:50:50.:50:54.

Can you choose the league say you can guarantee a job? -- truthfully.

:50:55.:51:01.

Who are these employers? When you speak to small and medium-sized

:51:02.:51:07.

lawyers is the young people don't have the skills -- employers . The

:51:08.:51:19.

big concern and criticism is people from overseas taking these jobs.

:51:20.:51:27.

I am doing a four-year degree with a sandwich course right now and I am

:51:28.:51:31.

in my second year so looking for my placement. I go on websites where

:51:32.:51:36.

there are 70 placements for accounting and finance, only seven

:51:37.:51:41.

of those are written in north-west, they are all in London.

:51:42.:51:49.

Somebody earlier was saying move, would you move?

:51:50.:51:57.

I would . This all comes down to the downturn

:51:58.:52:03.

of industry, it has been eroded year after year. If we started, for

:52:04.:52:10.

example with nuclear energy, if we bought nuclear energy and the

:52:11.:52:14.

manufacture of nuclear plants back from a French company that would

:52:15.:52:22.

provide jobs. Employment is rising but employment among the young has

:52:23.:52:27.

stood still. You are always talking about young

:52:28.:52:30.

people needing skills and if they have got skills there will be a job.

:52:31.:52:36.

The jobs are not there. I have got a 28-year-old with a Masters degree,

:52:37.:52:44.

and she has got lots of skills, she has worked in Budapest, on the West

:52:45.:52:50.

Bank, she has worked for UNESCO in Paris for six-month is unpaid, she

:52:51.:52:54.

is now working in Japan on a three month contract teaching English. She

:52:55.:53:00.

cannot get a job in the UK. Use a move, the only time she has ever

:53:01.:53:05.

been able to move, she still cannot get a job that will pay for housing,

:53:06.:53:10.

so she goes and illegally sublets because that is the only way she can

:53:11.:53:14.

afford somewhere to live and a lot of her friends are in the same

:53:15.:53:18.

situation. They are trapped, they cannot move, the jobs are not there

:53:19.:53:22.

Trapped. Trapped. Jeremy Hunt?

:53:23.:53:38.

I was going to come to her point and explain the issue but I want to say

:53:39.:53:42.

this, it is not government that creates jobs, it is the private

:53:43.:53:50.

sector. Over the last three years 400,000 businesses have been

:53:51.:53:54.

created. That is why we have 1.1 million more people in employment

:53:55.:54:00.

than three years ago. There are some signs the tide is turning for youth

:54:01.:54:03.

unemployment. If you asked me what the single thing we could do that

:54:04.:54:06.

would make a big difference in this area, it is to make sure the skills

:54:07.:54:10.

people leave college or university with relevant to the jobs market. We

:54:11.:54:14.

did have a system where sometimes people getting certificate that they

:54:15.:54:18.

were not actually matched very well with the kind of things employers

:54:19.:54:24.

wanted. She seemed to have every qualification under the sun.

:54:25.:54:31.

I have been with her around Preston opening series and they say we do

:54:32.:54:41.

not want another one. -- CVs. We have let them down. What they come

:54:42.:54:47.

up with is a qualification that needs to be valued by employers.

:54:48.:54:51.

What is worrying is we have a situation where an opponent is

:54:52.:54:56.

falling, jobs are going up but it is not making a big dent in youth

:54:57.:55:01.

unemployment. We need to look at the education system and vocational

:55:02.:55:08.

education and apprenticeships. Nothing is worse than that

:55:09.:55:11.

experience of looking for a job and not being able to find it but in

:55:12.:55:14.

this area, the Northwest, there was better news. For instance, HS2,

:55:15.:55:25.

electrification. The airport development is bringing jobs, but

:55:26.:55:30.

also for greater Manchester there is a 5.8 million investment and it is

:55:31.:55:35.

specifically about helping people to get into work, young people in

:55:36.:55:40.

particular to get into work. As I said before, apprenticeships in this

:55:41.:55:46.

area, I am sorry that doesn't apply to your incredibly qualified

:55:47.:55:51.

daughter, but apprenticeships have gone up 90% since Labour were in

:55:52.:56:00.

power. I am sorry, since Labour left power. This is an important --

:56:01.:56:07.

important point with regard to the 50% that don't go to university, the

:56:08.:56:10.

gentleman raise that issue earlier, Ed Miliband talk about the 50% and

:56:11.:56:20.

he describes it as the rest, the people that almost don't matter

:56:21.:56:24.

ordered. We do count those of us who didn't go to university and the

:56:25.:56:30.

people that have done other ways to get into work.

:56:31.:56:35.

I want to bring in some people affected by this you haven't spoken

:56:36.:56:39.

yet. Don't stick your hand if you have spoken already.

:56:40.:56:46.

You say implement has gone up but what kind of jobs? Zero hours where

:56:47.:56:50.

people get 15 hours per week? Agency jobs? I have got employment agencies

:56:51.:57:00.

saying can you go down tomorrow only to find out it is a one-day

:57:01.:57:04.

contract. It is all right bashing Conservative

:57:05.:57:10.

policies and agree there are problems with part-time jobs but

:57:11.:57:15.

where will you get money from? The ads is borrowed money. Where will

:57:16.:57:22.

you get money from? Somebody who hasn't spoken from the older side.

:57:23.:57:34.

The jobs are fixed. Who can live on part-time jobs? The figures are all

:57:35.:57:43.

fixed. Are you sympathetic to the youth who cannot find jobs?

:57:44.:57:48.

Yes. The reason is people cannot get jobs

:57:49.:57:55.

the economy is structured wrongly. If you pay thousands of pounds to

:57:56.:58:00.

somebody pushing a mouse around a desk, and give the money to young

:58:01.:58:04.

people they will gain experience and we will all benefit.

:58:05.:58:15.

On that note we have two and. Our time is up. We will be in Falkirk

:58:16.:58:22.

next week, the Scottish government is posting its case for

:58:23.:58:25.

independence. The week after that we are in London. That is on the day of

:58:26.:58:32.

the prebudget report. If you want to come to either programme go to our

:58:33.:58:44.

website or you can call us. If you are listening to Radio five Live you

:58:45.:58:48.

can continue the debate, but my thanks to our panel, Tim Stanley and

:58:49.:58:53.

Joan Bakewell couldn't get here because the trainer didn't deliver

:58:54.:58:57.

them we will have them some other day. Thank you to this panel and all

:58:58.:59:08.

of you, over 60, and under 30. Thank you all very much, good night.

:59:09.:59:14.

David Dimbleby presents the topical debate from Salford, with an audience who are all either under 30 or over 60 years old.

With health secretary Jeremy Hunt MP, shadow justice secretary Sadiq Khan MP, Liberal Democrat.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS