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Tonight we're in Barking in East London and welcome to Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
Good evening to you at home. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:14 | |
Good evening to our audience here, who are going to put the | 0:00:14 | 0:00:16 | |
questions to our panel, who don't know them | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
until they hear them from their lips. On the panel, | 0:00:19 | 0:00:21 | |
Conservative former Deputy Prime Minister Michael Heseltine, | 0:00:21 | 0:00:24 | |
who was Defence Secretary during the Cold War, | 0:00:24 | 0:00:26 | |
Labour's Shadow Work and Pension Secretary Rachel Reeves, | 0:00:26 | 0:00:31 | |
Liberal Democrats' Simon Hughes, | 0:00:31 | 0:00:33 | |
who became a Justice Minister in December, | 0:00:33 | 0:00:36 | |
The Times columnist David Aaronovitch, | 0:00:36 | 0:00:38 | |
the former Kremlin advisor Alexander Nekrassov, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
and the Daily Mail columnist Amanda Platell. | 0:00:42 | 0:00:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:46 | 0:00:50 | |
Thank you very much indeed. | 0:00:56 | 0:00:58 | |
Our first question from Eddie McNally, please. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
Is Russia too powerful, unpredictable | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
and scary for Europe to deal with it in the way it's dealt with | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
other countries in the past? | 0:01:07 | 0:01:08 | |
DAVID REPEATS THE QUESTION | 0:01:08 | 0:01:13 | |
Michael Heseltine. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
You can't possibly underestimate the risks and dangers in the Ukraine | 0:01:16 | 0:01:21 | |
in recent events. It's unpredictable. | 0:01:21 | 0:01:24 | |
And if there's one thing that is necessary, | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
it is to lower the temperature and to try | 0:01:27 | 0:01:29 | |
and resolve this matter by dialogue. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:34 | |
Er... I don't think anyone knows how it will be resolved. How can I...? | 0:01:34 | 0:01:39 | |
I'm not Ukrainian, I've never been there, | 0:01:39 | 0:01:42 | |
how can I know how the thing will play out? | 0:01:42 | 0:01:45 | |
But there is one thought that I would contribute to the | 0:01:45 | 0:01:49 | |
answer of this question. | 0:01:49 | 0:01:50 | |
I think that, in the West, | 0:01:50 | 0:01:53 | |
we need to reappraise our relationships with Russia. | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
If I look forward over the next 20, 30 years, | 0:01:56 | 0:02:01 | |
the big dangers I see for our part of the world... | 0:02:01 | 0:02:06 | |
Let's assume China were to become a belligerent world power... | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
I don't think it will, but suppose it was. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:12 | |
I would want Russia on our side. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
If you look at the southern borders of Russia, | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
they are full of unstable, very ethnically divided countries. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:22 | |
Endless difficulties. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:24 | |
And surely we ought to have a degree of humility with the idea that | 0:02:24 | 0:02:29 | |
military intervention, or something of that sort, | 0:02:29 | 0:02:33 | |
is going to solve anything. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:34 | |
If you take Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya... | 0:02:34 | 0:02:40 | |
it's quite obvious that there are potential civil wars | 0:02:40 | 0:02:43 | |
going on in those countries, | 0:02:43 | 0:02:45 | |
which our intervention has done nothing to solve. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:48 | |
Russian intervention, however illegal, | 0:02:48 | 0:02:51 | |
however questionable in the Ukraine, | 0:02:51 | 0:02:53 | |
has actually created a position where bloodshed is not likely to | 0:02:53 | 0:02:59 | |
flow within the country itself. | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
And so I am frightened of the language which tries to push | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
Russia...ever more remote, | 0:03:06 | 0:03:10 | |
with bits of the Ukraine being attracted into the European Union, | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
other bits of the Ukraine wanting to join Russia itself. | 0:03:13 | 0:03:17 | |
You saw the result of the Ukrainian parliament today. | 0:03:17 | 0:03:22 | |
And diplomacy, I think, for the West, for Europe particularly, | 0:03:22 | 0:03:27 | |
is to reach out to Russia for some all-embracing, | 0:03:27 | 0:03:31 | |
almost certainly economical settlement, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
which makes Russia feel secure. | 0:03:34 | 0:03:36 | |
-Never forget... -Whose language are you objecting to? | 0:03:36 | 0:03:41 | |
Well, I think that the reaction of the Americans today, | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
of sanctions of the sort that they've imposed now, is presumptuous. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:50 | |
And the British Government? | 0:03:50 | 0:03:51 | |
The British Government is involved in European talks. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
But the last point I wanted to make about the Russians. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:57 | |
Never forget that it was Napoleon who came from France | 0:03:57 | 0:04:00 | |
Hitler who came from Germany, and every Russian knows that. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:04 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:04 | 0:04:08 | |
David Aaronovitch. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:10 | |
That would be a completely appropriate response | 0:04:11 | 0:04:14 | |
if anyone had even remotely suggested | 0:04:14 | 0:04:16 | |
invading Russia - nobody has. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:18 | |
But let's just think about how the game's changed today. | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
And remember before, as we do, | 0:04:20 | 0:04:22 | |
that we stand guarantors under a 1994 agreement to the | 0:04:22 | 0:04:25 | |
territorial integrity of Ukraine, | 0:04:25 | 0:04:27 | |
and that means plus the Crimea today. | 0:04:27 | 0:04:30 | |
The coup people, who took over in the Crimea | 0:04:30 | 0:04:33 | |
when people stormed the parliament there, | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
brought forward a referendum that was supposed | 0:04:36 | 0:04:38 | |
to be that they themselves would be held on autonomy for Crimea | 0:04:38 | 0:04:43 | |
on the 30th of March to the 16th of March - ten days away from now. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:47 | |
On the same day, two Ukrainian... | 0:04:47 | 0:04:51 | |
TV stations were closed down and two pro-Putin, pro-Kremlin | 0:04:51 | 0:04:55 | |
TV stations opened up in their stead. | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
That's a description, but the question is - | 0:04:58 | 0:05:00 | |
is Russia too big and scary to be dealt with in the way that | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
-Europe...? -It certainly is far too big and scary to be dealt | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
with in the way that Lord Heseltine is suggesting for this reason. | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
The leader of the Crimean pro-Russian group said when he | 0:05:09 | 0:05:14 | |
was asked what he expected to happen as a result of this referendum was, | 0:05:14 | 0:05:19 | |
"75% will vote yes." | 0:05:19 | 0:05:21 | |
This is a de facto annexation of the territory... | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
of a sovereign country with the agreement | 0:05:24 | 0:05:28 | |
of Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
that we stand guarantor to the state, | 0:05:31 | 0:05:33 | |
having suggested that we would stop it from happening. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:36 | |
We can't solve this by invasion, but we certainly | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
have a responsibility to the Ukrainians | 0:05:39 | 0:05:41 | |
not to turn around and say, | 0:05:41 | 0:05:43 | |
"In some 100 years' time, we might need you against the Chinese, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:46 | |
"so we're going to turn a blind eye to the fact that you've taken | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
"a big chunk of somebody else's country." | 0:05:49 | 0:05:52 | |
I do have some thought about how it should be dealt with, | 0:05:52 | 0:05:55 | |
and Ed Miliband and David Cameron have talked about some. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:58 | |
We can talk about some of them later, | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
but the one thing that we're not going to be able to do is say, | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
"Vladimir Putin, well, you're a Russian. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
"This is what we expect from Russians | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
"and we don't care that much. We're just going to let it happen." | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
Alexander Nekrassov. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:11 | |
Well... | 0:06:11 | 0:06:13 | |
Alexander Nekrassov. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:15 | |
Let's turn this question around. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:17 | |
Can Russia trust the West? | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
When the Cold War stopped, we Russians... | 0:06:20 | 0:06:23 | |
well, our government, was assured by the West | 0:06:23 | 0:06:27 | |
it's not going to push NATO borders to the east. | 0:06:27 | 0:06:30 | |
We were assured definitely. Look what happened afterwards. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:35 | |
NATO started to spread closer and closer to Russia. | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
And this was not a friendly intent. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:43 | |
Why, if the Cold War was over, NATO wanted to be closer to Russia? | 0:06:43 | 0:06:47 | |
We don't understand that. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:48 | |
Secondly, we are missing the point here, | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
that there was a coup in Kiev which was supported by the EU. | 0:06:52 | 0:06:57 | |
Let's not close our eyes to that, | 0:06:57 | 0:06:59 | |
because EU politicians involved themselves in the so-called protests. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:04 | |
They came over, they encouraged those protests. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
Now we know they were funded by the EU and the Americans. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
So to say that President Putin | 0:07:11 | 0:07:14 | |
suddenly decided to invade Crimea for no reason... | 0:07:14 | 0:07:19 | |
Are you saying Europe organised those protests | 0:07:19 | 0:07:21 | |
and led to the downfall of the corrupt President Yanukovych? | 0:07:21 | 0:07:25 | |
Excuse me. He was a democratically elected president | 0:07:25 | 0:07:31 | |
and that was confirmed by the European Union observers | 0:07:31 | 0:07:34 | |
and other observers. | 0:07:34 | 0:07:36 | |
-Of course. -To say he was a corrupt... | 0:07:36 | 0:07:39 | |
I can name several more countries... | 0:07:39 | 0:07:41 | |
I'm sure. I'm sure you come from one. | 0:07:41 | 0:07:44 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE I can even say to you... | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
that President Hollande is less popular than Yanukovych was. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:51 | |
We are not saying, "Come on, French people, get rid of him." | 0:07:51 | 0:07:56 | |
The point is this. | 0:07:56 | 0:07:57 | |
When Ukraine refused to sign a free-association agreement | 0:07:57 | 0:08:03 | |
with the EU, which was a bad agreement, | 0:08:03 | 0:08:06 | |
believe me, I read it. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:08 | |
Any sane government would have said no to the agreement. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
The Russian deal was better. There was money on the table. DAVID AARONOVITCH LAUGHS | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
-Excuse me, but there was money on the table. -There was, yeah. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:19 | |
Ukraine would not have survived with 800 million euros which was | 0:08:19 | 0:08:23 | |
promised by the EU. Right? | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
Suddenly, Yanukovych in a matter of days became illegal, | 0:08:25 | 0:08:30 | |
corrupt and everything. | 0:08:30 | 0:08:32 | |
Before the signing of that agreement, | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
before it was still on the table, he was OK for European Union. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
-He was OK. -We get the point. You, sir, in the second row. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
-We'll come back to the argument. -I really think Alexander has a point. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
Can Russia trust the West? | 0:08:45 | 0:08:47 | |
The way I sort of see it is, | 0:08:47 | 0:08:49 | |
-I in no way condone what Russia has done in this situation... -But... | 0:08:49 | 0:08:54 | |
Yeah, BUT...where are the West getting this presumption | 0:08:54 | 0:08:58 | |
we have the right to sanction Russia for breaching international law | 0:08:58 | 0:09:04 | |
when we participated in an illegal invasion of Iraq? | 0:09:04 | 0:09:08 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
Amanda Platell. You heard the point he made. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
How can Russia trust the West? | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
And I totally agree. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
Tony Blair's legacy was that we have lost the moral authority | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
to go into other countries. You look at the mess in Afghanistan and Iraq. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:28 | |
I actually think David Cameron has judged this right. | 0:09:28 | 0:09:32 | |
We do not want to see another British soldier, man or woman, with | 0:09:32 | 0:09:37 | |
their boots on foreign soil trying to sort out someone else's problems. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:41 | |
And coming back with their legs blown off. APPLAUSE | 0:09:41 | 0:09:45 | |
And if I might just answer the original question. | 0:09:45 | 0:09:51 | |
The thing that struck me about this whole dilemma at the moment, | 0:09:51 | 0:09:55 | |
we have just announced that our defence budget | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
has been so cut that it's unlikely we could defend our own country. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
Germany's has been cut, France's has been cut, | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
and America announced last week that in their next plan | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
they will have fewer troops than they had before the Second World War. | 0:10:07 | 0:10:12 | |
How can we stand up to countries like Russia, | 0:10:12 | 0:10:16 | |
who have increased their budgets and just announced that they have | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
one of these long...these big missiles that can, you know, nuke us? | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
It's like an ant biting on an alligator. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
What should you do, nothing? | 0:10:27 | 0:10:29 | |
David Cameron is right to try to negotiate his way out of it. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:33 | |
He is trying to bring a qualified conversation between Russia | 0:10:33 | 0:10:39 | |
and the Ukraine, and the people there, and not threaten them | 0:10:39 | 0:10:43 | |
with violence from Europe, which is the last thing they need. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:46 | |
-You, sir, in the centre. -Some very interesting points raised there. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
One concern we need to establish even beyond this current crisis | 0:10:51 | 0:10:56 | |
is that probably the two most damaging events of the last century | 0:10:56 | 0:11:00 | |
were the two world wars, and NATO's agreements itself | 0:11:00 | 0:11:04 | |
create the same kind of crises that permitted the First World War. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
The Serbs killed Franz Ferdinand, | 0:11:07 | 0:11:10 | |
there was all of these cross-agreements | 0:11:10 | 0:11:12 | |
that enabled the First World War. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:14 | |
Where we sit right now, the Ukraine was inches from signing | 0:11:14 | 0:11:18 | |
an agreement where it became part of NATO and where we would, therefore, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:23 | |
have been forced into a situation that would be extremely damaging. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:27 | |
There wasn't. I'm sorry. There are some extraordinary things going on here. | 0:11:27 | 0:11:31 | |
-Firstly, no-one has suggested any use of military force against Russia. -Exactly. | 0:11:31 | 0:11:35 | |
That would be completely mad. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
Secondly, nobody is suggesting the Ukraine comes into NATO. | 0:11:38 | 0:11:41 | |
The EU agreement was an association agreement with | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
the European Union, | 0:11:44 | 0:11:45 | |
which, as far as we can tell, the majority of Ukrainian people | 0:11:45 | 0:11:49 | |
seem to have wanted, but which the president, after discussions | 0:11:49 | 0:11:52 | |
with President Putin - I wonder what went on there - decided at | 0:11:52 | 0:11:56 | |
the last moment that he wasn't going to sign and set off the crisis. | 0:11:56 | 0:12:01 | |
The EU didn't set off a crisis, Yanukovych did, | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
and Putin is now trying to take advantage of it. | 0:12:04 | 0:12:08 | |
APPLAUSE Excuse me, David, but let me tell you about the conversation between | 0:12:08 | 0:12:12 | |
Catherine Ashton and the Estonian Foreign Minister, | 0:12:12 | 0:12:17 | |
who told her that the information points to those snipers who were shooting... | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
-No, he didn't say that. -He did say that, it was confirmed... Let me finish. | 0:12:21 | 0:12:26 | |
This was confirmed by the Estonian Foreign Ministry. | 0:12:26 | 0:12:30 | |
-He didn't confirm that. -Make clear what you're asserting. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:34 | |
Suddenly we learned that the snipers who were shooting both at the police and the protesters | 0:12:34 | 0:12:41 | |
-were hired by the opposition. -No, we didn't. That's a lie. | 0:12:41 | 0:12:46 | |
Excuse me, you should read the text. This is very important, because that betrays... | 0:12:46 | 0:12:50 | |
It's no use getting into the minutiae of who said what and who shot what. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:55 | |
This is a vitally important political issue of massive scale. | 0:12:55 | 0:12:59 | |
Where I take issue with David, he says we've guaranteed | 0:12:59 | 0:13:02 | |
this frontier. Terrific. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
We can all march to the banners, but actually you can't do anything. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:08 | |
So you're deceiving your audience. | 0:13:08 | 0:13:10 | |
I think you were in that government, Michael, which made that guarantee. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:14 | |
This issue is full of quotations of who said what. The issue is this. | 0:13:14 | 0:13:20 | |
The Russians are there and we, you say, have guaranteed the frontier. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
I don't disagree. What are you going to do about it? | 0:13:24 | 0:13:28 | |
You're not going to send troops. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:30 | |
-Are you going to have economic sanctions? -Yes. -There is no chance. | 0:13:30 | 0:13:32 | |
There is no chance of the Germans agreeing to economic sanctions, | 0:13:32 | 0:13:36 | |
because they will suffer more than the Russians, | 0:13:36 | 0:13:39 | |
because they depend on Russia for their energy supply. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:41 | |
-APPLAUSE -All right. You, sir. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
Yes. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:47 | |
Personally, I think the UK needs to wake up. | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
We need to play our role on the global scale, | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
toning down the rhetoric from the US. | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
Bridge the gap between the US and the EU and Russia. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
-There's a bigger picture going on here. -That's right. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
Not only are we disagreeing about the Ukraine, | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
but while the Syrian conflict goes on, | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
and let's bear in mind that Russia supports President Assad, | 0:14:08 | 0:14:12 | |
there's already an element of distrust. | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
We need to play a more mediatorial role in this. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:19 | |
We need to open the talks, get Russia back on side. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
I don't agree with what they've done, | 0:14:23 | 0:14:25 | |
but we can't go wading into this pretending we're a big authority. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
We're not. And we rely on the gas from Russia. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:32 | |
What would your view be if they have this vote in Crimea | 0:14:32 | 0:14:36 | |
and it votes to go with Russia and leave Ukraine? | 0:14:36 | 0:14:40 | |
-If it can be overseen... -It can't. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:44 | |
Well, if it can be, and if they allow the EU in to make sure | 0:14:44 | 0:14:48 | |
-the vote is fair and that's the way they vote... -They won't. | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
Then it would be a closed issue for you. You, sir, at the back. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:55 | |
I agree with David Aaronovitch there. | 0:14:56 | 0:14:59 | |
I mean, where's the moral imperative to this? | 0:14:59 | 0:15:01 | |
When are we going to stand up for a country that wants democracy? | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
Is this not akin to Germany going into Poland, | 0:15:06 | 0:15:09 | |
you know, the first steps of that? | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
Is not the actions of Vladimir Putin just totalitarian and dictatorial? | 0:15:11 | 0:15:16 | |
-But if you... -All of what he has done is unjust. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
Does anybody care about that any longer? | 0:15:19 | 0:15:21 | |
When you talk about the morality, | 0:15:21 | 0:15:22 | |
what do you think is happening in Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya, | 0:15:22 | 0:15:26 | |
all of which were used to justify the argument, | 0:15:26 | 0:15:29 | |
"We will set up stable democratic governments"? | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
Look at what's happening there. | 0:15:32 | 0:15:34 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:15:34 | 0:15:36 | |
Rachel Reeves. Hang on, | 0:15:36 | 0:15:38 | |
you can come back at her, but let Rachel Reeves answer your point. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
Going back to the first question as well, from Eddie. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
Look, I think there is common ground that can be found. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
Others have said this already, but it is worth repeating. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
We need to lower the temperature, | 0:15:51 | 0:15:53 | |
de-escalate and get the Ukrainians and Russians talking to each other. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
That is the only way we'll find a solution. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
Of course there's a role for Britain and the EU and America, | 0:15:58 | 0:16:02 | |
but there will only really be an answer | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
-if the Ukrainians and Russians talk to each other. -That's correct. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:07 | |
Now, there are, of course, things we can do. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:09 | |
No-one is suggesting military action. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:11 | |
That sort of language, I think, is sabre rattling, | 0:16:11 | 0:16:14 | |
that won't help anybody, | 0:16:14 | 0:16:16 | |
but there are targeted things that can be done, | 0:16:16 | 0:16:18 | |
for example, visa restrictions, asset freezing. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
I'm not suggesting they need to be done right now, | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
but there are options on the table | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
which are short of sanctions and certainly short of military action. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
I do think that common ground can be found | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
-but we need that common ground. -It's not the first time Russia's done it. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
It might be Ukraine now, | 0:16:35 | 0:16:37 | |
but it might be another one of the former USSR states | 0:16:37 | 0:16:41 | |
in another ten years. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:42 | |
The last time they did go into one of their former countries, | 0:16:42 | 0:16:46 | |
they devastated it. They really, really did. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:48 | |
So when are we going to turn round | 0:16:48 | 0:16:50 | |
and start helping these people who are asking for our help | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
and stop helping people who aren't wanting our help? | 0:16:53 | 0:16:56 | |
The best way to help is to get people sat around the table | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
with each other, which is not happening now | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
and it's an important role for Britain and the EU. | 0:17:01 | 0:17:03 | |
-Does that work for you? -They didn't listen the first time round. | 0:17:03 | 0:17:06 | |
It's the only thing that will work. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:08 | |
What do you think? I said I'd come back to you at the back. | 0:17:08 | 0:17:10 | |
I agree with Rachel Reeves and a lot of people, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:12 | |
there needs to be dialogue and a way forward. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
Even though I have a lot of respect for you, Michael Heseltine, | 0:17:14 | 0:17:17 | |
I get tired of this thing about Iraq and Afghanistan being wheeled out | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
as examples of how the West has meddled in other country's affairs. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:25 | |
These are very different scenarios. | 0:17:25 | 0:17:27 | |
There were a lot of precedents about agreements that were made before, | 0:17:27 | 0:17:32 | |
the fact that NATO, all these countries around are part of NATO. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
If a country wants democracy, | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
it should be upheld by countries like this. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
OK, Simon Hughes, do you want to answer that point? | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
It should be upheld by countries like this, | 0:17:44 | 0:17:46 | |
but can I link that with the initial question? | 0:17:46 | 0:17:48 | |
Is Russia big? Yes. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:50 | |
Is it unpredictable? | 0:17:50 | 0:17:51 | |
Yes, in some respects, in terms of how it pursues its ambitions, | 0:17:51 | 0:17:55 | |
and is it scary? Certainly, | 0:17:55 | 0:17:57 | |
when its troops, pretending not to be its troops, appear in other countries | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
that's pretty scary, but we have to be a bit careful. | 0:18:00 | 0:18:04 | |
In my constituency just by the Imperial War Museum, there is | 0:18:04 | 0:18:07 | |
a memorial to the Soviet war dead at the end of the Second World War. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:11 | |
25 million people. | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
-They were our allies. -Yeah. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
Without them, we would not have won the Second World War. | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
The Arctic convoys, who we salute, | 0:18:20 | 0:18:22 | |
were part of that wonderful rescue operation. | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
It is ironic, in a way, that it was in Crimea, in Yalta, | 0:18:25 | 0:18:30 | |
where the settlement post-war was resolved in 1945. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
Where does this get us with today? | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
Where it gets us is that we have to be sensitive to Russian history, | 0:18:37 | 0:18:41 | |
while we absolutely uphold the right of the Ukrainian people | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
to their independence, to their own decision-making. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
Alexander is wrong about what happened in the last few weeks. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
There was a deal done for a coalition agreement. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
The President then left within 24 hours. | 0:18:56 | 0:18:59 | |
The parliament, the parliament, decided what should happen. | 0:18:59 | 0:19:02 | |
The parliament elected an interim president. | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
And David is absolutely right, | 0:19:05 | 0:19:06 | |
there is a guarantee, of which we are signatories, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
that Ukraine should not be invaded. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:12 | |
We are signatories of that, in return for them giving up nuclear weapons. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:16 | |
There is an absolute guarantee that Crimea is part of Ukraine. | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
We need, as Rachel says, and there's a consensus across Parliament | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
among the major parties, to encourage the European Union to work together. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
We have slightly different interests, but we must work together. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
We have to use those appropriate sanctions and methods | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
which are political and which give the message to Russia, | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
but if the Ukrainians, | 0:19:37 | 0:19:38 | |
I've been there several times, I love the country and the people, | 0:19:38 | 0:19:41 | |
if the Ukrainians can't look to us at moments like this | 0:19:41 | 0:19:44 | |
to stand up for the liberties, to determine their own future, | 0:19:44 | 0:19:47 | |
then we are not just denying our obligation to them in law, | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
we are actually failing to stand up for standards that should be European | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
-and that Russia needs to respect as well. -But if the Crimea... | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
If Crimea chooses to leave Ukraine, | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
then there's nothing you can do about it | 0:20:04 | 0:20:06 | |
despite these agreements and guarantees. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:08 | |
Hang on a minute. It's slightly more complicated. | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
Ukraine has done this before. There has been a vote. Since 1954, | 0:20:11 | 0:20:14 | |
when Crimea was given to Ukraine, | 0:20:14 | 0:20:15 | |
there's already been one occasion when there was a vote, a referendum, | 0:20:15 | 0:20:19 | |
-a so-called referendum. -No, Simon, there was never a referendum. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
-Sorry. -There was. -You can't say that. There was never a referendum. | 0:20:22 | 0:20:25 | |
I do say that. I do say that. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:27 | |
I'm also clear that the parliament in Crimea has made decisions, | 0:20:27 | 0:20:30 | |
as it were, to break away. The issue is not now whether we allow, | 0:20:30 | 0:20:34 | |
suddenly in the middle of all this turmoil, Crimea to break away. | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
We need to, as Rachel rightly said, | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
seek to get the Russians and Ukrainians around the table. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:42 | |
30% of people in Ukraine are Russian speaking, first language. | 0:20:42 | 0:20:45 | |
They need to come around the table, | 0:20:45 | 0:20:46 | |
supported by the rest of the European Union. Can I say one last thing? | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
The economic future of Russia, as well as Ukraine, | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
depends on a peaceful outcome. | 0:20:53 | 0:20:54 | |
Russia's economy is not in good nick, | 0:20:54 | 0:20:56 | |
Ukraine's economy is not in good nick. | 0:20:56 | 0:20:58 | |
They could be very strong economically, | 0:20:58 | 0:21:00 | |
they could help themselves and us, | 0:21:00 | 0:21:02 | |
but we are going the wrong way if we allow things to go on as they are. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:06 | |
We've got hands up, and we've had a lot of talk about | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
what the EU and Britain might do economically, | 0:21:09 | 0:21:13 | |
sanctions and all that, so I want to take a question | 0:21:13 | 0:21:17 | |
from Sharmit Mehta, please, on this point, | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
and we'll carry on with this because it's very interesting. | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
I question how credible the threats of economic sanctions on Russia | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
actually are, given it supplies 30% of Europe's gas. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
It's a point Michael Heseltine made. How credible are the threats | 0:21:30 | 0:21:34 | |
of sanctions, or indeed of any action? David. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
Firstly, Russia is a great deal more | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
open to economic sanctions | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
than, say, the Soviet Union was. | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
All these arguments were deployed at the time of the Soviet Union, | 0:21:47 | 0:21:50 | |
"You couldn't do anything about Hungary or Czechoslovakia." | 0:21:50 | 0:21:52 | |
And it was true, because Russia was not part of the world economy. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
Now it is, and it's a pretty vulnerable part of the world economy. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:58 | |
That's why its oligarchs come and live over here, | 0:21:58 | 0:22:01 | |
buy our football clubs, buy up large sections of London etc, | 0:22:01 | 0:22:05 | |
use this place as a place to launder money, large amounts that were stolen | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
in Russia, effectively, by stealing the assets of the Russian people. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:13 | |
The question is whether we will be effectively corrupted by that money | 0:22:13 | 0:22:17 | |
into saying we are not prepared to take any kind of economic hit | 0:22:17 | 0:22:20 | |
should, in ten days' time, | 0:22:20 | 0:22:22 | |
this is the point, in ten days' time, that rigged vote will happen, | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
and in ten days' time, effectively, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
there will be a de facto annexation of the Crimea | 0:22:27 | 0:22:30 | |
unless we show in these next ten days | 0:22:30 | 0:22:32 | |
that we are prepared to do something about it. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:35 | |
I agree about the business about talking people down | 0:22:35 | 0:22:38 | |
and getting people to talk but it can't be on the basis that | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
effectively we say, "Yeah, we're happy with the annexation." | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
Michael Heseltine. | 0:22:44 | 0:22:46 | |
I would never say I was happy. | 0:22:49 | 0:22:51 | |
I just listen to hear what you think we should do. | 0:22:51 | 0:22:55 | |
We're not going to impose sanctions on Russia, | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
because we won't get agreement to do it. | 0:22:58 | 0:23:00 | |
What no-one is talking about is | 0:23:00 | 0:23:02 | |
whether sanctions on Russia might lead to sanctions on us from Russia | 0:23:02 | 0:23:06 | |
and the cost in British economic terms that would flow from that. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
If we could get agreement, Michael, would you be in favour of it? | 0:23:10 | 0:23:13 | |
-If we could get agreement... -With European partners? | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
With European partners to talk to Russia and the Ukraine, yes, | 0:23:16 | 0:23:21 | |
but what I would not do is to rush to the point at which | 0:23:21 | 0:23:25 | |
Russia is forced onto the defensive. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
You know, I think you said it, or the question earlier, | 0:23:28 | 0:23:32 | |
are they unpredictable? They are not unpredictable. | 0:23:32 | 0:23:35 | |
These are the most sophisticated chess players in the world. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
What they do is to back their own self interests vehemently, | 0:23:38 | 0:23:43 | |
but they calculate. I remember vividly as Defence Secretary | 0:23:43 | 0:23:47 | |
facing the dangers of a nuclear holocaust, | 0:23:47 | 0:23:50 | |
the only real danger was a mistake. | 0:23:50 | 0:23:53 | |
The Russians would never have precipitated a nuclear war | 0:23:53 | 0:23:57 | |
because they could never have won such a war. | 0:23:57 | 0:24:01 | |
OK, you, sir, in the fourth row. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:24:03 | 0:24:04 | |
I just think it's very telling that | 0:24:06 | 0:24:08 | |
when there are economic interests of the EU and of America and Russia | 0:24:08 | 0:24:11 | |
involved, the whole international community are absolutely concerned. | 0:24:11 | 0:24:15 | |
When it comes to Bosnia and Herzegovina, | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
who have seen a massive crisis in terms of workers' protests | 0:24:18 | 0:24:21 | |
and government attacking those protesters | 0:24:21 | 0:24:23 | |
and police attacking those protesters, | 0:24:23 | 0:24:25 | |
the international community has been silent, completely silent. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:29 | |
-I think it's atrocious. -But... | 0:24:29 | 0:24:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:24:31 | 0:24:32 | |
Are you saying economic self-interest... | 0:24:32 | 0:24:35 | |
-Self-interest, completely. -..dominates? -Yeah. | 0:24:35 | 0:24:38 | |
Amanda Platell, you'd agree with that? | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
I can't see in a million years | 0:24:40 | 0:24:41 | |
that we're going to implement any sanctions in this situation | 0:24:41 | 0:24:45 | |
when we have to get the agreement of Germany, when they rely upon | 0:24:45 | 0:24:48 | |
40% of their energy from Russia. | 0:24:48 | 0:24:50 | |
It's just not going to happen, there won't be an agreement. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:53 | |
-It'll happen next week. -Sorry? | 0:24:53 | 0:24:55 | |
-It'll happen next week, Amanda. -What will happen? | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
If the Russians and the pro-Russians in Crimea insist on going ahead | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
with this referendum and rig it, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:04 | |
there will be economic sanctions of some kind or another | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
because we will have no alternative. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:08 | |
David, you use the word, "and rig it". | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
I can only ask you a simple question. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:14 | |
81 out of the 83 members of the Crimean parliament | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
today voted for such a referendum. | 0:25:18 | 0:25:20 | |
How can you say, with certainty, that it will be rigged? | 0:25:20 | 0:25:24 | |
-Or is that what you want to say after it happens? -No, I can't say... | 0:25:24 | 0:25:27 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:25:27 | 0:25:29 | |
-I can't say with certainty. -But you did say. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:31 | |
No, I can't say with 100% certainty. | 0:25:31 | 0:25:33 | |
-You did, that's what you did say. -I can say it with 95% likelihood... | 0:25:33 | 0:25:37 | |
-Well, come off it! That's quibbling. -..that it's going to be rigged. | 0:25:37 | 0:25:40 | |
-That's not good enough for you? -No. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:42 | |
Simon Hughes, you're in Government, the only person here in Government. | 0:25:42 | 0:25:45 | |
What did you make of that bit of paper we saw | 0:25:45 | 0:25:47 | |
being carried in or out of Downing Street | 0:25:47 | 0:25:49 | |
saying actually we wouldn't do anything at all? | 0:25:49 | 0:25:52 | |
Firstly, I don't think everybody saw the whole of the bit of paper, | 0:25:52 | 0:25:55 | |
-as I understand it. -Did you see more than we saw? | 0:25:55 | 0:25:58 | |
No, but I've, as you would hope, | 0:25:58 | 0:26:00 | |
taken advice as to what is been discussed. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:02 | |
Hang on, you've taken advice on what WAS on that bit of paper? | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
I've talked to colleagues, obviously, | 0:26:05 | 0:26:07 | |
-to know what exactly the Government's... -What did it say? | 0:26:07 | 0:26:10 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:26:10 | 0:26:12 | |
I don't... | 0:26:12 | 0:26:13 | |
Given that it isn't a definitive position of the UK Government, | 0:26:13 | 0:26:16 | |
I don't think exactly what it said is helpful. | 0:26:16 | 0:26:18 | |
The UK Government has a very clear position | 0:26:18 | 0:26:20 | |
set out by the Prime Minister today, yesterday and the day before, | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
with the support of the Leader of the Opposition, | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
and that is that we are taking action | 0:26:25 | 0:26:27 | |
because to do nothing is unacceptable. | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
To respond to the questioner, they are intended, to start with, | 0:26:29 | 0:26:33 | |
to be targeted asset-related action, | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
to deal with people who have money in this country who we can freeze | 0:26:36 | 0:26:41 | |
and deal with in very targeted ways. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
Now, there are other things we can do. We've already said | 0:26:44 | 0:26:46 | |
we are not proceeding with the preparations for the G8 Summit, | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
which is due to be in Russia, because they hold the chair. | 0:26:49 | 0:26:52 | |
We've already said we're not going to support, sadly, | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
from a political assessment, the Paralympics. | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
Those sort of things. | 0:26:58 | 0:26:59 | |
Can I say to the gentleman who raised the question of Bosnia-Herzegovina, | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
I had the privilege to be there two weeks ago. | 0:27:03 | 0:27:05 | |
We absolutely have made clear to the government in that country | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
that it's unacceptable for the authorities to turn on the public. | 0:27:09 | 0:27:12 | |
I did so myself to the Prime Minister | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
of the country on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:17 | |
We absolutely make clear to all countries in Europe, | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
whatever the relationship inside or outside the EU, that for example | 0:27:20 | 0:27:24 | |
pressures on minorities like gay people is unacceptable, | 0:27:24 | 0:27:26 | |
and we will go on doing that, but at the moment we need to concentrate | 0:27:26 | 0:27:30 | |
on a collective agreement across the European Union, | 0:27:30 | 0:27:32 | |
with all our differences, | 0:27:32 | 0:27:34 | |
to try to make sure we have a common approach to say to Russia, | 0:27:34 | 0:27:37 | |
"Stop, think, it's not in your interest | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
-"and it's certainly not in the interests of Ukraine." -All right. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:43 | |
And actually, we have done something. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:45 | |
We have withdrawn Prince Edward's appearance | 0:27:45 | 0:27:47 | |
at the Sochi Olympic Games, so we've come out fighting! | 0:27:47 | 0:27:51 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:27:51 | 0:27:54 | |
Can't work out whether that's a republican or a monarchist opinion | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
that you advance, as an Australian. | 0:27:57 | 0:27:59 | |
Or perhaps you aren't an Australian any more. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:01 | |
You can join in this debate at home. | 0:28:01 | 0:28:04 | |
Text, Twitter... | 0:28:04 | 0:28:05 | |
I'm going to move on to a question now from Joel Hodgson, please. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
Can the Met ever be trusted | 0:28:18 | 0:28:20 | |
when it comes to dealing with ethnic minorities? | 0:28:20 | 0:28:22 | |
Can the Met ever be trusted | 0:28:22 | 0:28:23 | |
when it comes to dealing with ethnic minorities? | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
This is in the light of the Home Secretary's announcement today that | 0:28:26 | 0:28:30 | |
there will have to be an inquiry into undercover policing | 0:28:30 | 0:28:33 | |
after a review found what she called "deeply troubling evidence" | 0:28:33 | 0:28:36 | |
that the police spied on the Stephen Lawrence family. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:40 | |
The question is, can the Met ever be trusted? | 0:28:40 | 0:28:42 | |
Simon Hughes, you are a London MP. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
Do you think the Met can ever be trusted? | 0:28:44 | 0:28:47 | |
The public in London need the Met to be trusted, but... | 0:28:47 | 0:28:50 | |
-That's a different matter. -No, but they haven't arrived there. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:53 | |
They should be trusted. It's a tragedy | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
that after the efforts made by the Labour government under Jack Straw | 0:28:55 | 0:28:58 | |
to have the Macpherson Inquiry, | 0:28:58 | 0:29:00 | |
which we thought dealt with the Stephen Lawrence failed prosecutions | 0:29:00 | 0:29:04 | |
and lots of action by the Met to deal with those things, | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 | |
we now discover from today's report, | 0:29:07 | 0:29:08 | |
independently commissioned by the Government, | 0:29:08 | 0:29:11 | |
very clear and robust decision from the Home Secretary, | 0:29:11 | 0:29:13 | |
that they've failed again. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
They failed to investigate corruption allegations. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:17 | |
They failed to pass on those allegations | 0:29:17 | 0:29:21 | |
to the Macpherson Committee, and the third allegation was that | 0:29:21 | 0:29:24 | |
there was clearly inappropriate undercover activity. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
Duwayne Brooks, who was the friend of Stephen Lawrence, | 0:29:27 | 0:29:29 | |
who is a colleague and friend of mine, and who is now in public life | 0:29:29 | 0:29:33 | |
because he is seeking to be the Mayor of the borough | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
that Rachel originally came from in Lewisham, I spoke to today. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:40 | |
He is a black man, a young black Londoner. I take his advice, | 0:29:40 | 0:29:45 | |
because actually, it's about young, black minority and other Londoners. | 0:29:45 | 0:29:49 | |
He said, "Look, we have to get the message across to the Met - | 0:29:49 | 0:29:51 | |
"you have to move on. You have got to move on." | 0:29:51 | 0:29:53 | |
It's no good looking back | 0:29:53 | 0:29:55 | |
and trying to accuse people of things in the past. | 0:29:55 | 0:29:58 | |
Yes, they need to be looked into, | 0:29:58 | 0:30:00 | |
but the obligation on the Met and on the politicians in London | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
is to make sure every single citizen | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
in Barking and Dagenham and everywhere else | 0:30:05 | 0:30:07 | |
can have confidence in the police force, and one thing that is needed - | 0:30:07 | 0:30:10 | |
the police force needs to look like London. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
It needs to have the mix of ethnic backgrounds... | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
-SHOUTING FROM AUDIENCE: -Like the Politicians! | 0:30:16 | 0:30:18 | |
Sorry? | 0:30:18 | 0:30:19 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:30:19 | 0:30:21 | |
What did she say? | 0:30:23 | 0:30:24 | |
-Just like the politicians. -That's true, that's true. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:27 | |
Joel Hodgson asked the question, what's your opinion? | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
I don't think that they can be trusted. | 0:30:32 | 0:30:34 | |
I think it's just one mistake after another, so every week you're | 0:30:34 | 0:30:40 | |
opening a newspaper and it's always something else that's gone wrong. | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
I mean, is it going to be in 25 years' time, | 0:30:43 | 0:30:45 | |
we're going to find out that Mark Duggan was unlawfully shot? | 0:30:45 | 0:30:49 | |
What do you think, Rachel Reeves? | 0:30:49 | 0:30:51 | |
I totally understand what Joel is saying | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
and it shouldn't take 21 years for a mother to get justice | 0:30:54 | 0:30:57 | |
and find out what happened to her son. | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
Erm, back in Eltham, 21 years ago. | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
But I would also say that the vast majority of police officers, like | 0:31:03 | 0:31:07 | |
all of us, will be disgusted | 0:31:07 | 0:31:10 | |
and distressed by what they have learnt today as well | 0:31:10 | 0:31:13 | |
because the majority of police officers, I think, in London | 0:31:13 | 0:31:17 | |
but also in Leeds, where I'm an MP, do a fantastic job | 0:31:17 | 0:31:20 | |
of protecting us, investigating crimes, rooting out homophobia | 0:31:20 | 0:31:26 | |
and racism and bringing people to justice for those crimes. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:31 | |
And how do you know when you're dealing with the police | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
whether you're dealing with one of the people you describe or | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
whether you're dealing with somebody, who, like the | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
Home Secretary says, is damaged, policing stands damaged today? | 0:31:40 | 0:31:45 | |
How can you tell what you're dealing with? | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
Well, look, I just think the vast majority are doing a good job | 0:31:48 | 0:31:50 | |
and we need to ensure that the reforms that were recommended | 0:31:50 | 0:31:54 | |
originally by Macpherson, | 0:31:54 | 0:31:56 | |
and then now with this new inquiry, are taken forward. | 0:31:56 | 0:31:58 | |
And that means reforming | 0:31:58 | 0:32:00 | |
the Independent Police Complaints Commission | 0:32:00 | 0:32:04 | |
because this was investigated in 2006 | 0:32:04 | 0:32:06 | |
and didn't find out any of this. | 0:32:06 | 0:32:08 | |
-So, that clearly needs further reform. -OK. | 0:32:08 | 0:32:11 | |
And we also need to have greater | 0:32:11 | 0:32:12 | |
scrutiny of undercover police officers. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:14 | |
Because that shouldn't have been allowed to happen the way it | 0:32:14 | 0:32:17 | |
did with that infiltration of the family. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:20 | |
So, reform is needed but I think we should trust the police. | 0:32:20 | 0:32:24 | |
I think we can trust the police and I think the police, like us, | 0:32:24 | 0:32:27 | |
will be disgusted by what they've learnt today. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
You, sir. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:32:31 | 0:32:33 | |
I think it's unfortunate that the police cannot be trusted. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:40 | |
They have made efforts, I think, to improve the service | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
but until we get rid of institutional racism | 0:32:44 | 0:32:48 | |
and unless we understand what institutional racism's | 0:32:48 | 0:32:52 | |
all about, there will never be that trust and I think institutional | 0:32:52 | 0:32:55 | |
-racism exists throughout society, not just the police. -OK. | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
And you, sir, at the very back there. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:00 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:33:00 | 0:33:01 | |
In the spectacles, yes. | 0:33:01 | 0:33:03 | |
It was on the news last night about section 60, stop and search. | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
The Government's put it on the back burner, basically. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
-They were going to reduce or cut out stop and search. -That's correct, yeah. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:17 | |
David Aaronovitch? Have the Government done that? | 0:33:17 | 0:33:19 | |
All the information I have is that there's a huge | 0:33:19 | 0:33:21 | |
argument between the Home Secretary, Theresa May and Number Ten about | 0:33:21 | 0:33:26 | |
whether or not she wants to restrict stop and search. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
And Number Ten badly doesn't because it sees it as quite | 0:33:30 | 0:33:33 | |
an element in its ability to go out and say it's tough on crime. | 0:33:33 | 0:33:37 | |
So, certainly, | 0:33:37 | 0:33:38 | |
and not only is our relationships | 0:33:38 | 0:33:41 | |
now between the Business Department | 0:33:41 | 0:33:44 | |
and the Home Office incredibly bad but the relationship | 0:33:44 | 0:33:47 | |
between the Home Office and Number Ten are incredibly bad. | 0:33:47 | 0:33:50 | |
OK, you, sir, up there on the left. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:52 | |
My view is that although we need to look at the police, | 0:33:52 | 0:33:56 | |
solve their problems, | 0:33:56 | 0:33:58 | |
we should stop navel-gazing because when you compare the police in this | 0:33:58 | 0:34:02 | |
country to other parts of the world, I don't think we can fault them. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:06 | |
You see, they do a good job. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:08 | |
As a black man, I've been subject to stop and search. | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
I used to live in Suffolk and when I came to London, in a week, | 0:34:11 | 0:34:16 | |
I was stopped three occasions by the police. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:20 | |
And I couldn't believe it that this could happen. | 0:34:20 | 0:34:23 | |
But in the end, I have to put that aside and to decide that, | 0:34:23 | 0:34:27 | |
look, the police are like just you and I. Everybody makes mistakes. | 0:34:27 | 0:34:32 | |
When they make mistakes, it should be dealt with and move on. | 0:34:32 | 0:34:36 | |
You don't think there's a policy of stopping black | 0:34:36 | 0:34:38 | |
people as opposed to white people and searching them? | 0:34:38 | 0:34:43 | |
I think there is, but also there a lot white people who are stopped | 0:34:43 | 0:34:47 | |
but nobody reports it. | 0:34:47 | 0:34:49 | |
So, I think we should stop navel-gazing. | 0:34:49 | 0:34:51 | |
Can I just say one thing? To generalise is fine, | 0:34:51 | 0:34:54 | |
Rachel's right, the police have made huge progress. | 0:34:54 | 0:34:56 | |
But if you're the one person, | 0:34:56 | 0:34:58 | |
if you're the person stopped on the street unjustifiably again | 0:34:58 | 0:35:01 | |
and again and again, that is unacceptable | 0:35:01 | 0:35:04 | |
and we have to deal with the stop and search problem. | 0:35:04 | 0:35:07 | |
Because some communities get it really badly. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:09 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:35:09 | 0:35:11 | |
Alexander, what do you think? | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
-You've lived here many years. -Yes, yes. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
What do you think of the policing here? | 0:35:15 | 0:35:17 | |
Well, I think the police here is great compared to some countries. | 0:35:17 | 0:35:21 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:35:21 | 0:35:22 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:35:25 | 0:35:26 | |
Well, we've seen the Ukrainian police | 0:35:28 | 0:35:31 | |
and I know about the Russian police as well. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:33 | |
To be honest with you, I think they're trying very hard | 0:35:33 | 0:35:36 | |
to be inclusive and maybe if they don't have the numbers, | 0:35:36 | 0:35:41 | |
you know, of black or Asian policemen but they're moving there. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:46 | |
They're not saying, "No, no, no, we're not going to change." | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
So, I have faith in the British police. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:52 | |
OK, the woman there in the middle. | 0:35:52 | 0:35:54 | |
Erm, like I said, we need to see change. | 0:35:54 | 0:35:57 | |
We need to see what we want to believe in as a nation, as a country. | 0:35:57 | 0:36:00 | |
We need to see...when you grow up, when the media portrays things, | 0:36:00 | 0:36:04 | |
when our teachers, the policemen, the politicians, | 0:36:04 | 0:36:07 | |
we need to see ethnic minorities. | 0:36:07 | 0:36:09 | |
We need to see difference. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:11 | |
If we just see, I'm sorry to say, just Conservative white people | 0:36:11 | 0:36:15 | |
up there, we're not going to have belief in anything! | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
I'm not saying it about white people, I'm saying Conservative | 0:36:18 | 0:36:20 | |
and people who've come out of private schools. | 0:36:20 | 0:36:22 | |
There's no-one there with a bit of colour, | 0:36:22 | 0:36:24 | |
not talking about skin colour, | 0:36:24 | 0:36:26 | |
I'm talking about colour to the plate, bringing something | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
passionate, bringing something that we can look up to, | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
rather than dryness. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:36:33 | 0:36:35 | |
And you, sir, in the fourth row from the back, yes. | 0:36:35 | 0:36:39 | |
You, sir. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:41 | |
I, personally, wouldn't...I've grown up in London but I don't | 0:36:41 | 0:36:47 | |
trust the police. | 0:36:47 | 0:36:48 | |
Recently when I was part of the tuition fee strikes, | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
we was rounded up with my friends, who were white, and we were | 0:36:51 | 0:36:55 | |
taken to Euston Station for about three hours and then we were let go. | 0:36:55 | 0:37:00 | |
They just told us, "Sign here, sign here." And then we were let go. | 0:37:00 | 0:37:04 | |
And my white friends didn't leave with nothing, | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
not even a warning but I left with a caution. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
Of doing nothing, literally. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:12 | |
I'm trying to run a CRB for a job | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
and then it comes up on Enhanced CRB, I realised that | 0:37:14 | 0:37:17 | |
I do have a caution, which I didn't know about, no-one told me | 0:37:17 | 0:37:20 | |
at Euston Station that I was given a caution. | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
So, literally, this is going to live with me | 0:37:22 | 0:37:24 | |
for the next five years, yet it's the mistake of the police. | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
So, how do you expect me to trust the police when they can do | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
that to me and they can't do it to my white friends from uni? | 0:37:31 | 0:37:35 | |
Amanda Platell. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:37:37 | 0:37:39 | |
When Joel first asked that question, the first thing I was struck | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
by is that you are a beautiful young black man, | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
as Stephen Lawrence was before he | 0:37:48 | 0:37:50 | |
was stabbed to death in the street. | 0:37:50 | 0:37:52 | |
He was not just let down by the | 0:37:52 | 0:37:54 | |
Met, it wasn't just the police who | 0:37:54 | 0:37:56 | |
lied, not all of them, I can see that most of them are great. | 0:37:56 | 0:38:00 | |
But there was an element that lied, that covered up, | 0:38:00 | 0:38:03 | |
covered each other's backs. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:05 | |
They were not just let down by the police, | 0:38:05 | 0:38:07 | |
they were also let down by the politicians. | 0:38:07 | 0:38:09 | |
And it was my newspaper, the Daily Mail, | 0:38:09 | 0:38:12 | |
who ran a nonstop campaign against all fashion, | 0:38:12 | 0:38:16 | |
against all popularity, against the reader. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:20 | |
You know, it wasn't like putting | 0:38:20 | 0:38:22 | |
Madeleine McCann on the front page of the paper. | 0:38:22 | 0:38:24 | |
This was not a groundswell campaign but my editor, Paul Dacre, felt so | 0:38:24 | 0:38:29 | |
passionately that this was so wrong that he campaigned for two decades! | 0:38:29 | 0:38:34 | |
That's the plug for the Daily Mail. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:36 | |
Let's have the answer to the question. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
It is actually really important because what we have now... | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
It's been said often. What about the question that Joel asked? | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
Can I actually speak now, is it Question Time? | 0:38:43 | 0:38:45 | |
It is Question Time where you answer the question that Joel asked. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:48 | |
And I answered it. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:52 | |
THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER | 0:38:52 | 0:38:53 | |
As much as we know the Mail is a much-loved paper | 0:38:53 | 0:38:56 | |
and all of that, can the Met ever be trusted, | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
when it comes to dealing with ethnic minorities? That was the question. | 0:38:59 | 0:39:02 | |
And I think that I answered that but the question now is... | 0:39:02 | 0:39:04 | |
Right, then, we'll go on to somebody else. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:06 | |
No, can I just finish? | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
The simple point is that we | 0:39:08 | 0:39:09 | |
talk about the fact that everything has changed | 0:39:09 | 0:39:12 | |
and things have got better but actually, | 0:39:12 | 0:39:14 | |
the whole case with Andrew Mitchell | 0:39:14 | 0:39:16 | |
and "Plebgate" shows that the police still, | 0:39:16 | 0:39:18 | |
there's an element of corruption and they cover each other's backs. | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
And that is very, very worrying. | 0:39:21 | 0:39:23 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:39:23 | 0:39:25 | |
Michael Heseltine. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:27 | |
Well, the particular story that we're addressing is a scandal. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:32 | |
And I think the Government | 0:39:32 | 0:39:34 | |
have reacted speedily | 0:39:34 | 0:39:36 | |
and correctly in responding to what | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
has shocked huge numbers of people. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:41 | |
To pick on individuals for any reason, | 0:39:43 | 0:39:46 | |
whether they be of a different race or a different class or | 0:39:46 | 0:39:50 | |
different infirmity is intolerable. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
And the law is clear. | 0:39:53 | 0:39:55 | |
Now, your specific question is "Can people trust the Met in the circumstances?" | 0:39:55 | 0:40:01 | |
I think the truth is, for the most people, yes. | 0:40:02 | 0:40:06 | |
But for very large numbers of a minority, no. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:11 | |
-To be trusted by everyone, not for... -Life isn't like that. | 0:40:11 | 0:40:16 | |
You never get 100% opinion on one issue. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
So, I think what I'm trying to say is | 0:40:20 | 0:40:22 | |
that there's a balance in the answer. | 0:40:22 | 0:40:25 | |
Many people will feel, I think, as you do, you never can trust them. | 0:40:25 | 0:40:28 | |
But a lot of people say, "Yes, they're doing their duty." | 0:40:28 | 0:40:31 | |
So, it's a mixed answer. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:33 | |
Now, from your point of view | 0:40:33 | 0:40:35 | |
and I'm very sympathetic to the point of your question. | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
I think it was either Rachel or Simon who said that the police don't | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
look like London. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:45 | |
The electorate of London is now 50% ethnic | 0:40:45 | 0:40:48 | |
but virtually nothing in London, | 0:40:50 | 0:40:52 | |
except the electorate, looks 50% ethnic. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:55 | |
And so the issue is about absorbing a vast number of new | 0:40:55 | 0:41:01 | |
people who've come to this country over the last 50 years | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
and seeing them represented at every level of society. | 0:41:04 | 0:41:07 | |
One of the particular problems in the case of the police is, | 0:41:07 | 0:41:13 | |
it's very difficult to recruit people from some of the ethnic groups. | 0:41:13 | 0:41:17 | |
-Due to lack of trust. -Exactly. | 0:41:17 | 0:41:19 | |
Exactly, OK...no, no, no, let's accept that point. | 0:41:19 | 0:41:25 | |
Let's assume there is a lack of trust, | 0:41:25 | 0:41:28 | |
how does the Met overcome that | 0:41:28 | 0:41:32 | |
if they try to recruit people | 0:41:32 | 0:41:34 | |
in order to build the trust, but the recruits don't come? | 0:41:34 | 0:41:37 | |
Well, the recruitment system is obviously not fair then, is it? | 0:41:37 | 0:41:40 | |
You're honestly telling me that these | 0:41:40 | 0:41:42 | |
-people aren't applying for these jobs? -Oh, yes. | 0:41:42 | 0:41:44 | |
-Oh, yes. -That's not... come on! I find that very hard to believe. | 0:41:44 | 0:41:49 | |
You may find it hard to believe... | 0:41:49 | 0:41:51 | |
Can I just say, as someone who was attacked in Barking just two | 0:41:51 | 0:41:54 | |
weeks ago as a consequence of sheer | 0:41:54 | 0:41:57 | |
and utter incompetence by the police here, | 0:41:57 | 0:42:00 | |
I ran and chased my attacker to the police station myself. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:03 | |
That police station was closed on a Sunday afternoon | 0:42:03 | 0:42:05 | |
and no-one was there to rescue me | 0:42:05 | 0:42:07 | |
but a 13-year-old Muslim girl, who came to my rescue to defend me! | 0:42:07 | 0:42:10 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:42:10 | 0:42:12 | |
You may find it hard to believe | 0:42:12 | 0:42:13 | |
but it is difficult to attract certain groups of ethnic minority. | 0:42:13 | 0:42:17 | |
My point is that the people you've got in power at the moment | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
aren't doing the job correctly. | 0:42:20 | 0:42:22 | |
As the lass down there was saying, the Conservative | 0:42:22 | 0:42:24 | |
white people are not doing their jobs properly, so... | 0:42:24 | 0:42:26 | |
OK, you, sir, at the back there in the check shirt. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
Thank you. I think we have to put it in context, | 0:42:29 | 0:42:32 | |
we're talking about corruption in the police service. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:34 | |
The Metropolitan Police has 35,000 police officers, we're | 0:42:34 | 0:42:37 | |
talking about a handful of incidents here over a number of years. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:41 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:42:41 | 0:42:43 | |
OK. All right, and time is against us. | 0:42:43 | 0:42:47 | |
I'm going to move on to another question. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:49 | |
This is a question we had, I think, more questions about, | 0:42:49 | 0:42:52 | |
apart from Ukraine than anything else this evening | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
and it's from Pam Dumbleton, please, Pam Dumbleton. | 0:42:55 | 0:43:00 | |
Isn't it time the Government listened to the people about the effects | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
immigration is having in changing our communities? | 0:43:03 | 0:43:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
Just in what way do you think the Government isn't listening? | 0:43:11 | 0:43:14 | |
The Government haven't got a clue. | 0:43:14 | 0:43:16 | |
David Cameron has never been to Barking. | 0:43:16 | 0:43:19 | |
If he came, he'd be warned in advance | 0:43:19 | 0:43:23 | |
and everything would be brushed up. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:25 | |
The Government needs to come and walk through our town | 0:43:25 | 0:43:28 | |
and just see how we now live. | 0:43:28 | 0:43:30 | |
Go back 12 years, it was totally different. | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
Now we are the complete minority there | 0:43:33 | 0:43:36 | |
and it's just like the most terrible place on earth to live at the moment. | 0:43:36 | 0:43:40 | |
GASPS | 0:43:40 | 0:43:42 | |
LIMITED APPLAUSE | 0:43:42 | 0:43:43 | |
Amanda Platell. | 0:43:43 | 0:43:44 | |
SHE LAUGHS | 0:43:44 | 0:43:45 | |
I did a little bit of research about Barking before I came here | 0:43:45 | 0:43:49 | |
and evidently you've had a 30% drop in the indigenous population | 0:43:49 | 0:43:54 | |
and a 200% increase in immigration. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
Yes. | 0:43:57 | 0:43:59 | |
And, look, I think I'm the only one on the panel that is an immigrant. | 0:43:59 | 0:44:02 | |
I came from Australia 28 years ago with a backpack. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
I love this country, I'm really glad to be able to live here | 0:44:06 | 0:44:09 | |
but I never came here expecting that I would be able to get a house, | 0:44:09 | 0:44:14 | |
send child benefit back home, use the welfare system. | 0:44:14 | 0:44:18 | |
I always thought it was a privilege to be here | 0:44:18 | 0:44:20 | |
and I do not understand when we have the kind of social tensions | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
we have here with schools, which are just overflowing now. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
You've got more children of school age, in this area, proportion | 0:44:27 | 0:44:30 | |
of population, than anywhere else in the country. | 0:44:30 | 0:44:34 | |
And that's because you have lots of people coming in, | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
many of whom want to work really hard and want to contribute, | 0:44:37 | 0:44:40 | |
but the Government is not taking account of the pressure it puts... | 0:44:40 | 0:44:44 | |
-And how should it do that? -Well, David, I think it's a huge problem. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:48 | |
-What David Cameron has suggested recently... -Say again, sorry? | 0:44:48 | 0:44:51 | |
Listen to the indigenous people here, the people that have been here | 0:44:51 | 0:44:54 | |
all their lives, all their families have been here. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:56 | |
David Cameron did suggest that we had a ban, so if someone was | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
coming in they had to work for three months and pay tax before they... | 0:45:00 | 0:45:04 | |
-Look, people today, one in seven... -..were able to use benefits. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:07 | |
I would say ten years, I would say make it a bigger barrier, | 0:45:07 | 0:45:09 | |
make people contribute. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:10 | |
All right. Make your point, sir, again. What was it? | 0:45:10 | 0:45:13 | |
One in seven new businesses are set up by immigrants, yeah? | 0:45:13 | 0:45:17 | |
To employ immigrants. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
They're all being given money, | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
everything's being thrown at the immigrants. | 0:45:21 | 0:45:23 | |
AUDIENCE GRUMBLES | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
David Aaronovitch... | 0:45:25 | 0:45:26 | |
Can I finish? I've applied for 100 jobs on the railway. 100 jobs. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:30 | |
I don't even get an interview no more. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:32 | |
In the old days, at least you'd get a letter. | 0:45:32 | 0:45:34 | |
At least you'd get a rejection letter. | 0:45:34 | 0:45:36 | |
I don't even get that, 100 jobs! | 0:45:36 | 0:45:37 | |
But these immigrants, they get all their tickets paid for, | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
they get all the jobs. I am homeless. I've got nowhere to live. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:44 | |
I have to go down today and see an immigrant, | 0:45:44 | 0:45:47 | |
an immigrant telling me that I... | 0:45:47 | 0:45:49 | |
Well, that's the truth. That's the truth! | 0:45:49 | 0:45:51 | |
I went down to John Smith House today | 0:45:51 | 0:45:53 | |
and an immigrant tells me that I cannot live here. | 0:45:53 | 0:45:58 | |
I cannot get nowhere to live. | 0:45:58 | 0:45:59 | |
-All right, David Aaronovitch. -AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS | 0:45:59 | 0:46:02 | |
-Hang on. All right. -AUDIENCE ARGUING | 0:46:02 | 0:46:04 | |
OK, we get your point. | 0:46:04 | 0:46:06 | |
-We are the minority, and we get nothing. -You are... | 0:46:06 | 0:46:09 | |
Sir, you're blaming... | 0:46:09 | 0:46:11 | |
-I'm not blaming immigrants at all! -No, you're blaming the wrong people. | 0:46:11 | 0:46:14 | |
-You're... -I'm not. I'm just stating the facts of the case! | 0:46:14 | 0:46:18 | |
No, no, you're stating a perception of the facts of the case. | 0:46:18 | 0:46:22 | |
For me, personally, and for many people like me. | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
OK, you made your point, let him answer it. | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
Just cos you perceive something doesn't make it true. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
-We all... -It's true for me. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:46:31 | 0:46:33 | |
There isn't anything... | 0:46:38 | 0:46:39 | |
We've been told we're just BNP! We're not all racist! | 0:46:39 | 0:46:42 | |
No, hang on, sir. Hang on, be fair, be fair. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:44 | |
What about the indigenous people here as well? | 0:46:44 | 0:46:47 | |
I think we've heard your point, | 0:46:47 | 0:46:48 | |
the idea is that the panel should be able to answer. | 0:46:48 | 0:46:51 | |
No-one has so far accused anybody of being racist. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:53 | |
But the things that you've said were exactly what was said | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
about my grandparents when they came over to the Jewish East End | 0:46:56 | 0:46:59 | |
in the early 1900s, exactly the same things. | 0:46:59 | 0:47:01 | |
They said precisely the same things. | 0:47:01 | 0:47:03 | |
"We can't walk through our streets because they're not ours any more." | 0:47:03 | 0:47:06 | |
Why is a street not yours because some of the faces in it are black? | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
Why can't you be in a street that has black and white people? | 0:47:09 | 0:47:13 | |
All right, you can answer this. | 0:47:13 | 0:47:15 | |
APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH | 0:47:15 | 0:47:17 | |
-Hold on, actually, most immigrants... -He didn't actually say, David... | 0:47:17 | 0:47:21 | |
He didn't say anything about black, and actually... | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
-He didn't mention black people. -Ridiculous. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:26 | |
Do you really think that? | 0:47:26 | 0:47:28 | |
I've got nowhere to live, I need to go and find somewhere to live. | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
-All right. -Yeah, I will! Tonight. -APPLAUSE | 0:47:32 | 0:47:36 | |
OK, you, sir, at the very back there. Thank you very much. | 0:47:36 | 0:47:39 | |
You, sir, at the back. | 0:47:39 | 0:47:41 | |
Can I say, I work round the corner in a school that is | 0:47:41 | 0:47:46 | |
a fantastically assimilated and cohesive community. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:50 | |
I do not recognise the Barking that we're hearing from the front row. | 0:47:50 | 0:47:55 | |
I'm a bit worried... | 0:47:55 | 0:47:56 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:47:56 | 0:47:58 | |
I'm a bit...not disgusted, | 0:48:00 | 0:48:03 | |
but a bit concerned that the BBC tonight selected that question from | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
the lady at the front there just to build up this sort of debate. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:11 | |
-APPLAUSE -You may... Hang on, hang on. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
You may not have heard me say | 0:48:14 | 0:48:16 | |
there were more questions on immigration... | 0:48:16 | 0:48:18 | |
Wait a minute, be fair, more questions on immigration | 0:48:18 | 0:48:22 | |
in Barking than on any other subject apart from Ukraine. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:25 | |
-I appreciate that. -So don't start attacking the programme | 0:48:25 | 0:48:28 | |
for having selected this question. | 0:48:28 | 0:48:31 | |
What I'd really love the panel to comment on, | 0:48:31 | 0:48:34 | |
though, is the supposed suppression today by the Tories of a report | 0:48:34 | 0:48:40 | |
that said there was no link between immigration and unemployment. | 0:48:40 | 0:48:45 | |
Michael Heseltine, if you'd like to answer that. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:49 | |
The Conservative-led Government has just published the report, | 0:48:49 | 0:48:53 | |
so I don't know what you're using the word "suppression" about. | 0:48:53 | 0:48:57 | |
And what... what the report says | 0:48:57 | 0:49:02 | |
is that actually there isn't anything like | 0:49:02 | 0:49:04 | |
the linkage between immigration and unemployment as people perceived. | 0:49:04 | 0:49:08 | |
That's what the report says, | 0:49:08 | 0:49:10 | |
although there was an earlier report which indicated there was. | 0:49:10 | 0:49:13 | |
But why I disagree with you is | 0:49:14 | 0:49:17 | |
because I think it's the job of the BBC | 0:49:17 | 0:49:20 | |
to allow questions of this sort to be asked, | 0:49:20 | 0:49:23 | |
because undoubtedly this whole issue of immigration | 0:49:23 | 0:49:27 | |
and the rate at which we can attract foreign people from overseas | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
is absolutely fundamental to the political debate in this country. | 0:49:30 | 0:49:34 | |
And if you actually look at the UK Isolationist Party, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:37 | |
they call themselves UKIP, | 0:49:37 | 0:49:38 | |
the whole appeal of UKIP is actually about immigration, | 0:49:38 | 0:49:43 | |
and the resentments that we heard here, that's the UKIP question. | 0:49:43 | 0:49:47 | |
And I think that the most impressive thing that's happened here tonight, | 0:49:47 | 0:49:52 | |
in Barking, is the overwhelming reaction of the audience | 0:49:52 | 0:49:55 | |
in resentment at this parody of what Barking is all about. | 0:49:55 | 0:49:59 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:49:59 | 0:50:01 | |
You, sir, up there. Yes, in the blue shirt. | 0:50:03 | 0:50:07 | |
I think you're deluding yourself | 0:50:07 | 0:50:09 | |
-if you think there aren't these tensions. -Yes, there are. | 0:50:09 | 0:50:12 | |
Especially in this area. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:13 | |
But I think maybe you're blaming the wrong people | 0:50:13 | 0:50:15 | |
if you're blaming each other sitting in this audience. | 0:50:15 | 0:50:18 | |
If you're going to let people come here without any infrastructure | 0:50:18 | 0:50:21 | |
and any planning to settle them in, then there's going to be tensions, | 0:50:21 | 0:50:24 | |
and it's not just going to be white versus black or black versus Chinese, | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
it's going to be everybody. | 0:50:28 | 0:50:29 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:50:29 | 0:50:31 | |
Rachel Reeves, you're applauding him. You agree. | 0:50:31 | 0:50:34 | |
I do agree with him, and look, David said that just because the | 0:50:34 | 0:50:37 | |
gentleman at the front perceives something doesn't make it real. | 0:50:37 | 0:50:40 | |
And he shouted back, "But it's real for me." | 0:50:40 | 0:50:42 | |
And he walked out of this room and people clapped, | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
and you shouldn't have clapped when he walked out of this room | 0:50:45 | 0:50:47 | |
because for him, he is homeless, and he might be wrong in blaming | 0:50:47 | 0:50:50 | |
some people in this room for that, but that's how he feels. | 0:50:50 | 0:50:53 | |
And that is a situation that he's facing today. | 0:50:53 | 0:50:55 | |
And we can't just say "You're wrong" and let him walk out, | 0:50:55 | 0:50:58 | |
because he has to hear what other people have to say, | 0:50:58 | 0:51:01 | |
and you have to hear what he has to say as well. | 0:51:01 | 0:51:03 | |
But I do agree with this gentleman | 0:51:03 | 0:51:06 | |
because if we are going to let people come into this country, | 0:51:06 | 0:51:09 | |
we've got to make sure that there is a level playing field. | 0:51:09 | 0:51:12 | |
We've got to make sure that there are school places, we've got | 0:51:12 | 0:51:15 | |
to make sure there are the homes for people to live in, and we've got | 0:51:15 | 0:51:18 | |
to make sure as well that there are jobs for people, and we need to | 0:51:18 | 0:51:24 | |
make sure as well that the labour market isn't rigged against people. | 0:51:24 | 0:51:28 | |
So, you know, the situation where jobs are advertised overseas | 0:51:28 | 0:51:31 | |
but they're not advertised in this country, for example. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:34 | |
-You believe that's happening? -It does happen. | 0:51:34 | 0:51:36 | |
So you believe that immigration as a whole is being wrongly handled? | 0:51:36 | 0:51:40 | |
I do think that there are very real problems that we need to deal with. | 0:51:40 | 0:51:44 | |
For example, jobs should be advertised in this country, | 0:51:44 | 0:51:47 | |
the minimum wage should be properly enforced, | 0:51:47 | 0:51:49 | |
health and safety should be enforced, | 0:51:49 | 0:51:51 | |
private landlords who let out their houses to, you know, ten people | 0:51:51 | 0:51:55 | |
in a two, three bedroom home, that should not be allowed. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:51:58 | 0:52:00 | |
And we've got to understand the legitimate concerns of people who | 0:52:00 | 0:52:05 | |
have lived here and their families have lived there all their lives. | 0:52:05 | 0:52:08 | |
We also have to understand that people come to this country | 0:52:08 | 0:52:11 | |
because they want to work hard, like David's family did, like you | 0:52:11 | 0:52:14 | |
and your families of other people in this room did. | 0:52:14 | 0:52:16 | |
And we've got to make it work for everybody, for all of us, | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
because we have to live in this community together. | 0:52:19 | 0:52:21 | |
We can't roll back the clock, we have to make it work | 0:52:21 | 0:52:23 | |
and we can only do that by working together. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:25 | |
This is the most arrant hypocrisy I've ever listened to! | 0:52:25 | 0:52:28 | |
This is a supporter of the Labour government that had | 0:52:28 | 0:52:30 | |
over 200,000 people coming into this country as immigrants... | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
And there are 200,000 coming today, Michael. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:36 | |
And you actually did absolutely nothing about it, | 0:52:36 | 0:52:38 | |
and you're now pretending you've got all these policies. | 0:52:38 | 0:52:41 | |
What would you do? What would you actually do in government? | 0:52:41 | 0:52:44 | |
First of all, Michael... | 0:52:44 | 0:52:46 | |
-What would you do? -Do you want to listen to me? | 0:52:46 | 0:52:48 | |
I do, I want you to answer the question. What would you do? | 0:52:48 | 0:52:50 | |
First of all, there are 200,000 people coming to this country today. | 0:52:50 | 0:52:53 | |
Under the rules that you created. | 0:52:53 | 0:52:55 | |
No, under the rules, you've been in government for four years, | 0:52:55 | 0:52:58 | |
-your government's been in power for four years. -But what did you do? | 0:52:58 | 0:53:01 | |
First of all, I've been in parliament since 2010. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:06 | |
So it's your party's fault. | 0:53:06 | 0:53:08 | |
What I'm saying is we need rules to enforce these things. | 0:53:08 | 0:53:12 | |
We need to ensure that the infrastructure is there and | 0:53:12 | 0:53:14 | |
we need to ensure that jobs aren't just being advertised overseas. | 0:53:14 | 0:53:18 | |
No-one's been named or shamed | 0:53:18 | 0:53:19 | |
for not paying the national minimum wage. | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
We need to ensure that those rules, | 0:53:22 | 0:53:23 | |
that gang masters can't exploit those rules. | 0:53:23 | 0:53:26 | |
There are practical things we could do, but blaming each other, | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
people blaming each other, that's not the right way forward. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:32 | |
All right, you in the front here, then I'll come to you, Alexander. | 0:53:32 | 0:53:35 | |
I think one of the problems is, in the past, | 0:53:35 | 0:53:37 | |
when immigrants came in, it was in small numbers, | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
and they gradually assimilated into the new community. | 0:53:40 | 0:53:43 | |
And the new community accepted them. | 0:53:43 | 0:53:45 | |
Here in Barking, it's been like an absolute invasion. | 0:53:45 | 0:53:48 | |
We were talking about what's happening in, sort of, | 0:53:48 | 0:53:52 | |
the Crimea earlier, the threat of invasion there. | 0:53:52 | 0:53:55 | |
Here in Barking, we seem to be living through it. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:58 | |
I love the new foreign people, I get on with them, | 0:53:58 | 0:54:00 | |
but I just don't know this borough. | 0:54:00 | 0:54:02 | |
I feel a stranger in my own country. | 0:54:02 | 0:54:04 | |
Alexander. Alexander Nekrassov. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:08 | |
Well, you know, from a point of view of a Russian who is living here, | 0:54:08 | 0:54:12 | |
I tell you why you have that debate and why you are so heated about it, | 0:54:12 | 0:54:17 | |
is because it's been suppressed for so long, | 0:54:17 | 0:54:19 | |
and the only reason why you have it now is because the elections are coming. | 0:54:19 | 0:54:23 | |
UKIP is sort of, you know, making a fuss about this. | 0:54:23 | 0:54:26 | |
And suddenly all the parties started to talk. | 0:54:26 | 0:54:29 | |
But there was no reasonable debate on that issue about four years ago. | 0:54:29 | 0:54:35 | |
We had Enoch Powell in the 1960s saying all the same sort of things. | 0:54:35 | 0:54:40 | |
-It's not a new debate. -No, it's not. | 0:54:40 | 0:54:42 | |
We had this debate back in 2010 with Gordon Brown. | 0:54:42 | 0:54:47 | |
We've been having nothing but the immigration debate for the last, | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
it seems to me, the last ten years. And let me just... | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
Are you saying it should be closed down, the debate? | 0:54:53 | 0:54:56 | |
I am very much in favour of the debate, but I'm also in favour | 0:54:56 | 0:54:59 | |
of saying that I'm actually pleased that Labour let all those | 0:54:59 | 0:55:02 | |
immigrants come to Britain, people who are an immense... | 0:55:02 | 0:55:05 | |
They say a terrifically good thing about this place as a country, | 0:55:05 | 0:55:10 | |
and they contribute an enormous amount to this country, | 0:55:10 | 0:55:13 | |
-and if there are problems... Yeah. -APPLAUSE | 0:55:13 | 0:55:15 | |
And if there are problems of transition and services | 0:55:15 | 0:55:19 | |
and so on, yes, we should solve those problems, | 0:55:19 | 0:55:22 | |
but those kids we're talking about in those overflowing schools | 0:55:22 | 0:55:25 | |
-will be paying your kids' pensions. -All right. Simon Hughes. | 0:55:25 | 0:55:30 | |
You asked the question. | 0:55:30 | 0:55:31 | |
I'll come back to you after we've heard from Simon Hughes. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:35 | |
Listen, I represent the Old Kent Road, the Elephant & Castle, | 0:55:35 | 0:55:39 | |
very proud to do so. What you raised is a real issue, yeah? | 0:55:39 | 0:55:43 | |
I accept, I accept that for people born here, | 0:55:43 | 0:55:48 | |
particularly for people whose families | 0:55:48 | 0:55:50 | |
come from London for generations, | 0:55:50 | 0:55:52 | |
they have seen a very large increase in people, quotes, not like them. | 0:55:52 | 0:55:57 | |
I accept that completely. | 0:55:57 | 0:55:59 | |
I do think, like Michael, that the last government had | 0:55:59 | 0:56:02 | |
two significant failures for which they need to be held to account. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:06 | |
One, they made an error in allowing the transition period which we could | 0:56:06 | 0:56:10 | |
have had, when Poland and countries joined the EU, not to be applied. | 0:56:10 | 0:56:14 | |
We were the only country in the EU to allow that, | 0:56:14 | 0:56:17 | |
-so of course they came here. Hang on, David. -Hang on, David. | 0:56:17 | 0:56:21 | |
-Do you regret all those Poles? -Of course I don't, | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
but it was a mistake because the volume of people who came over, | 0:56:24 | 0:56:27 | |
in my judgment, I said it at the time, | 0:56:27 | 0:56:29 | |
I thought would cause a tension, which it did. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:33 | |
The other thing is that under Labour, | 0:56:33 | 0:56:35 | |
the policing of our borders was hopeless. Hopeless. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:38 | |
The UKBA, we had no system for checking anybody out, | 0:56:38 | 0:56:42 | |
and we had a pretty lousy system for controlling our borders. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:45 | |
And what do you say to the lady here who asked the original question, | 0:56:45 | 0:56:48 | |
before we come to the end of the programme? | 0:56:48 | 0:56:50 | |
I was responding to her question. There is... | 0:56:50 | 0:56:53 | |
-Hasn't the EU made all of this worse? -No, listen. | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
They've made us keep our borders open. Yes, they have. | 0:56:55 | 0:57:00 | |
We need to police our own borders. We need to make our own decisions. | 0:57:00 | 0:57:04 | |
We don't need the EU to run our country. | 0:57:04 | 0:57:06 | |
-You can take that view, I disagree, I'll tell you why. -I know you do. | 0:57:06 | 0:57:09 | |
I'll tell you why, we in the UK have retained our right to have | 0:57:09 | 0:57:14 | |
passport and border control, unlike other countries, and I support that. | 0:57:14 | 0:57:17 | |
But this government, both parties in the government, | 0:57:17 | 0:57:21 | |
are very clear that they are addressing this issue. | 0:57:21 | 0:57:23 | |
We can't change the rules on the European Union | 0:57:23 | 0:57:27 | |
because it's a free trade, free movement idea. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
And there are two and a half million people who are British in other | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
parts of the European Union because they chose to go there. | 0:57:32 | 0:57:35 | |
Simon, I'm going to have to stop you. | 0:57:35 | 0:57:39 | |
I'm going to have to stop you if I can. | 0:57:39 | 0:57:42 | |
I'm afraid we've come to the end of our hour. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
-I'm sorry to those of you who... -AUDIENCE GROANS | 0:57:44 | 0:57:46 | |
-Well, what...! -LAUGHTER | 0:57:46 | 0:57:49 | |
What can I do? Another half hour! | 0:57:49 | 0:57:54 | |
I'm sorry, our hour is up. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:57 | |
Next week, we're going to be in Nottingham. | 0:57:57 | 0:58:00 | |
We'll have the Shadow Foreign Secretary Douglas Alexander there, | 0:58:00 | 0:58:03 | |
and Nick Hewer, the star of The Apprentice, | 0:58:03 | 0:58:05 | |
on the panel in Nottingham. A week after that, | 0:58:05 | 0:58:07 | |
we're going to be in Warrington the day after the Budget. | 0:58:07 | 0:58:09 | |
So, either Nottingham or Warrington, if you want to come, | 0:58:09 | 0:58:12 | |
the address is on the bottom of the screen there, the website, | 0:58:12 | 0:58:15 | |
or you can call us on... | 0:58:15 | 0:58:17 | |
If you're listening to this or have been on 5 Live, you can | 0:58:19 | 0:58:22 | |
continue the debate - Question Time Extra Time follows immediately. | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
My thanks to our panel here and to all of you who came to Barking | 0:58:25 | 0:58:29 | |
for this edition of Question Time. Until next Thursday, good night. | 0:58:29 | 0:58:33 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:33 | 0:58:36 |