Browse content similar to 10/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, we are in west London. Welcome to Question Time. | :00:00. | :00:16. | |
Good evening to you at home, to our audience ready to question our | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
panel. They, of course, don't know the questions until they hear them. | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
The new culture secretary, Sajid Javid. Promoted to the Cabinet | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
yesterday to replace Maria Miller. Labour's deputy leader, Harriet | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
Harman. The leader of the Liberal Democrats and the Welsh assembly, | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
Kirsty Williams. Singer, songwriter and political campaigner Billy | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
Bragg. And while Britain's most successful businessmen, the chief | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
executive of the advertising firm WPP, which employs 170,000 people | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
worldwide, Sir Martin Sorrell. Thank you. Let's go into our first | :00:55. | :01:11. | |
question, which comes from Dick Hogbin, please? What will it take | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
for the public to trust MPs on expenses again? Billy Bragg? A lot, | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
I think. What we have seen this week is the failure of self-regulation. | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
Parliament rightly protected privileges. We understand why that | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
happens. It seems to me that the attitude expressed by Maria Miller | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
to the Independent body that looked at her expenses and initially found | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
she should pay back ?45,000, I didn't think she was giving it | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
enough respect. I think, in her dealings with them, director | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
dealings, she clearly felt they shouldn't really even be | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
investigating her. For the public, I think this has a very corrosive | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
effect. There is simply not enough accountability in our society. At | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
the same time, you have the press, snapping at her heels, because of | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
the Leveson Enquiry, it's her job to implement the Leveson Enquiry. There | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
is another situation, where I feel there is not enough accountability | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
in our society. I think, in the long term, the public's anger, in some | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
ways, has been fuelled by the press and some politicians, who take... | :02:32. | :02:41. | |
Shall we say take... They think the worst of people on benefits, they | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
think the worst of immigrants. They think the worst, encourage us to | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
think the worst of these people. So when they themselves fall foul of | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
the authorities, we immediately think the worst of them. I would | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
prefer to live in a more forgiving society. | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
Sajid Javid? I watched the expenses scandal unfold and engulf our | :03:04. | :03:11. | |
politics, not as a member of Parliament but as a member of the | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
public. I was outraged by it, just as much as everyone else in the | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
public was. Rightly so. I think it did tremendous damage to our | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
parliamentary system and our trust in democracy. That is why I think it | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
was right at the time of the scandal that an independent body was set up, | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
IPSA, accountable and transparent, but most of all independent. What | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
happened in the Maria Miller case is because the claims that were being | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
looked at were from the pre-2010 period, it was done under the old | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
system. That is part of why we have had the response we have seen. | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
Sorry, you are losing me. How do you mean that is why? Because IPSA is | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
there as the new body to look at the expense claims. Had she done | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
anything wrong or had it all been made by the press? She admitted she | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
did something wrong. What was it? She was cleared of the central | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
allegation, that her parents were somehow profiting at taxpayer's | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
expense. She was cleared of that and that is an important point. But she | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
did accept that she made mistakes in claims that she had made and she was | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
asked to pay that back, which she didn't. She was asked to apologise | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
and she did that as well. -- which she did. Do you think of the apology | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
had been more fulsome it would have made a difference? She was asked to | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
apologise and therefore she did. Different people apologise in | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
different ways, she did it her own way. The public were right to judge | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
her on how she responded. There is nothing wrong with that. The media, | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
where I would disagree, much like Billy said, I don't think you can | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
blame this on the Leveson Enquiry, the media, I think the media are the | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
cornerstone of our democracy, their freedom is very important. If they | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
want to investigate politicians' wrongdoing, or any other public | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
official, nothing should stop them doing that. Clearly, in this case | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
the pressure was immense. Maria felt it was becoming a distraction from | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
all of the good work she had done and the rest of the Government was | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
doing, she decided to resign and that is something I respect. Are you | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
saying she resigned because she was getting in the way, or because she | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
did something wrong and had to resign? What Maria said yesterday | :05:38. | :05:45. | |
was... What do you think? I can't read Maria's mind. She has accepted | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
she did wrong, she has paid back the money, like many other MPs did. She | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
also made an apology and that's the most important thing. I will finish | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
on this, I think the public are rightly still outraged. There is | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
still very raw anger. I understand that. The other thing we must do is | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
see what other lessons we can learn from this and what more can be done | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
to restore integrity, because I think this shows that not enough has | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
been done. What is your view? I think this is so damaging to | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
democracy. There have been so many cases of MPs that seemed to be | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
bumping up what is a fairly small basic salary with dubious claims. It | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
needs to be taken outside of MPs' hands. Maybe an increase in salary | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
and an allowance system, or something where the public think | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
that the expenses outside of MPs' hands. The Maria Miller example, it | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
damaged public trust again, in your view? Absolutely. You, sir, in the | :06:54. | :07:02. | |
spectacles? Surely, the public were offered the option by the Liberal | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
Democrats and conservatives about the power of recall in the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
manifestoes. That needs to be implement it to give the public | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
faith in politicians. Part of recall being that they can petition to have | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
a by-election? It could be put to the public and they can decide if | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
she should remain. Kirsty Williams? I agree. The question is what it | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
will take for the public to trust MPs on expenses. I think we need to | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
ensure that politicians never become complacent. We have a feeling that | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
it was the old problem, everything is now all right. Clearly, for the | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
public, it is not all right. I think we need to insure that we are acting | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
in the spirit of the rules, rather than trying to hide behind the | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
letter of them. We need to redouble our efforts to reform the political | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
system from top to bottom, including recall, as you said, it was in the | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
Liberal Democrat manifesto and we haven't been able to realise that. I | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
think that is back on the table and we need to keep pushing to take | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
action on that. But wider reform, as well. Looking at big money in | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
politics, looking at the electoral system, that means that people do | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
not have safe seats. Were it doesn't matter what they do, they will be | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
elected anyway. Look at reforming the House of Lords. If we are going | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
to regain some kind of trust in politics, we don't just have to look | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
at the expenses issue, we need to look at how we do politics in the | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
country in the total. Man in the third row? I wonder what the motive | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
is of politicians who over claim expenses. I agree with the | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
suggestion that maybe the basic salary of MPs is too low. Harriet | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
Harman? I don't think it is ever justifiable to say or to feel that | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
because the pay is not what somebody thinks it might be that it is OK to | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
top up the pay with expenses. I don't think that is OK in the | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
private sector. It is certainly not OK in the public | :08:56. | :09:08. | |
sector. What people saw was that the independent commission is all that | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
Maria Miller needed to pay back ?44,000. Then the system, which | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
involved a committee of MPs, said it was only ?5,000. I think all of the | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
anger that there was around the previous expenses scandal erupted | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
again. I think the lesson, what it will take for us to get to start to | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
try to rebuild the trust which is so grievously broken, is a recognition | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
that we have not gone far enough yet in order to sort the system out. One | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
of the problems is that if you have got independently one figure set, | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
and then a group, a committee of MPs reduces it, people will just think | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
we are letting off our own side and the system is not fair. I think what | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
we need to do in Parliament is we have to work together to make sure | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
we have an enforcement of a system that people can have confidence in. | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
I agree, this is really important. There is enough distrust around in | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
politics. Our democracy is important and we need people to have | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
confidence in the system. Therefore, this is something that we absolutely | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
have to sort out. I agree, it's a cross-party issue. Harriet, you | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
mentioned the original suggestion of ?45,000, cut down to just over | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
?5,000. Did you think that was the wrong decision by the committee of | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
MPs? I noticed your leader call for Maria Miller to resign. He said, I'm | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
not calling for it today. He didn't think she had done anything wrong? | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
Do you think she had done anything wrong? I think the problem and | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
concern is that... Oh, yes, she obviously had done something wrong | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
and that is why she had to apologise and pay the money back. Was it made | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
worse by the figure being cut? I think it was. I don't want to | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
second-guess the committee decision, but as far as the public is | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
concerned, if the public have to see that a committee of MPs has made a | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
decision in relation to an MP, or if it is independent, there is more | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
trust and confidence in an independent situation. I think | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
that's why we need to work together to solve the situation out. I think | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
mistrust has been caused by this again. Yes, you, sir? If you steal | :11:20. | :11:26. | |
money, basically, do you not think they should be investigated by the | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
police and prosecuted by the courts? A normal employee, if they steal | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
money from a corporate company, they will be pursued through the courts | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
and a police investigation. Why are MPs different to the normal public? | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
The gentleman's point is exactly right, MPs should be treated the | :11:43. | :11:53. | |
same as any member of the public when it comes to wrongdoing. Let me | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
give you this quick example. As Treasury minister I was responsible | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
for the tax credit system. In that system, there are some people that | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
did wrong but it was a mistake. They over claimed on tax credit but it | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
was not deliberate, it was a mistake. They didn't claim ?44,000! | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
But the principle is still important in making sure everybody is treated | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
equally. They were asked to pay it back and it was accepted as a | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
mistake. Some people deliberately defrauded the welfare system, they | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
were taken in front of the police and convicted. Some MPs made | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
mistakes and they were asked to pay money back. Some were convicted. | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
Five of Harriet's colleagues went to prison because of what they did. The | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
system does work, in that regard. The person three rows from the back? | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
Essentially, it all depends upon two key terms, accountability and | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
transparency. If we don't have these implemented, essentially, it | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
impinges on the democratic system. Also, letting MPs slip into their | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
comfort zone is very disheartening. As a university student, hearing | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
about this was so disheartening. You felt she had been treated to | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
leniently by fellow MPs? I do, I feel as though it was media coverage | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
which blocked the system too much and there was no element of | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
transparency. Martin Sorrell? Coming back to the question, you asked us | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
to be brief and pertinent in the Green room, two things. Salary and | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
expenses should be combined, it should be one fixed figure. | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
Secondly, there should be no self-regulation. It should be | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
independent assessment. There have been lots of cases of MPs meddling | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
with their expenses, if I can put it this way. The degree of trust, we | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
run polls on what the electorate think, the degrees of trust of MPs | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
in general, of government ministers, it is about 14% in the sample that | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
we run. The only lower group are tabloid journalists, 10%. So, there | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
is a real trust problem. The only way of dealing with it, I think, is | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
to remove the expenses issue completely by having one figure. | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
And, secondly, having self-regulation off the table. The | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
other thing that happened this week, I do agree with Billy, Leveson | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
has played an important point in this. The pressure put on Maria | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
Miller, in part, was the press and media going after her because of | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
Leveson. I think that exacerbated it. The Prime Minister deferred | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
action, delayed action. Of course, a standard, brilliantly, by appointing | :14:42. | :14:49. | |
Sajid Javid as the replacement. We are yet to see if he is any good | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
comedies only been in the job one day! | :14:53. | :15:01. | |
The clear issue is that there seems to be some form of double standard | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
going on. I feel like the rules apply to backbenchers more, as | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
opposed to MPs or ministers. I don't think it should be the case. It | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
should be black and white. If you steal or take money that is not | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
yours you should be punished for it. It shouldn't be, oh, no, I'm an MP, | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
I shouldn't do that, I shouldn't do this, I took it accidentally. Do you | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
not think to truly bring transparency and accountability, MPs | :15:30. | :15:31. | |
should be issued with credit cards and their expenses and expenditure | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
should be monitored by the public and put to the public to | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
scrutinise, to take the issue of public money out of MPs and is? I | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
think in the short term, the standards committee itself needs to | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
be reformed. I think it needs more independent members, more lay | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
members than just MPs. And perhaps some sort of video link to the | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
public, being published in the press, for example. How do you rank | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
the Maria Miller affair with previous ones? The duck houses, the | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
hangs baskets, a year or two back? Does it rate with that, or this is a | :16:08. | :16:13. | |
minor affair in your view? It has the potential to be big. I think | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
that David Cameron had a serious error of judgment in the way he | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
handled it. But he did stop it. She resigned. So it had the potential to | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
blow into something bigger but he stopped it. | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
I think it is disappointing to see that we trust you to lead our | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
country, then you clearly are not leading by example. I think that is | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
very, very disappointing. That's, you know, I wanted to say that. | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
You mean politicians as a class? Yes. | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
Not the individuals sitting at the table? The politicians. | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
OK. You can join in the debate as always by text or Twitter. | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
At: A question from Rosanna Geary, | :17:00. | :17:17. | |
please. Is the increasing use of buy-to-lets | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
as investments a major contributing factor to house price inflation? Is | :17:21. | :17:30. | |
buy to let a major contributing factor. Martin Sorrell? It is a | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
factor but there are a number of others. Cheap money or low interest | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
rates, post layman, 2008, it has been used to avoid further financial | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
catastrophe and to stimulate the economy. As a result, that leads to | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
bubbles in the economy. That is one it is not just buy-to-let, that is | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
an aopportunity approach but it does cause a little bit of a bubble in | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
the housing market, the cheap money does. And last but not least, there | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
is the success of London. London as a capital city, as a focus for the | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
foreign companies, as a place to work, a muti cultural society, the | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
infrastructure issues, obviously, there are healthcare issues, | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
education issues but generally, as a place to locate a company and grow a | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
company, it is very effective. The UK economy is dependant to a far | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
greater degree than many other economies on tertiary economies it | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
is a country no attracts services businesses. London's boom, and | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
London's strength, and London house prices are a reflection of that. | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
Rosanna Geary, does that answer your question? What is your view about it | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
yourself? Partly. I feel that perhaps something could be done in | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
relation to taxation. So increased taxation on rental income. Also I | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
feel that maybe there should be a restriction on the number of rental | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
properties that an individual can own. I appreciate that there is a | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
lot of investment coming into the country, that is a positive thing... | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
Sajid Javid, you answer this, you were at the troughry, well, until | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
yesterday! I have not forgotten. She has a good point about the | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
number of people buying to let, excludeing other people buying for | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
themselves? I understand the point. But from the evidence I have seen, | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
the house prices are not really driven by buy-to-let, own as there | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
are a small proportion of the number of total houses that take place, | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
mostly they are for private, their main use. But the important point is | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
the talk of a house price bubble. I don't think there is a house price | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
bubble. But you don't have to take my word for it. Even more important | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
are the independent people to look at this, the Bank of England, they | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
have looked a at this again and again and on a regular basis. They | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
recently pointed out that house prices are on average 15% below in | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
real terms from the peak. And a just over 20% rise in West | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
London? As Martin said, London is different. There are factors that go | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
into London, such as the huge number of cash buyers getting into London | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
from overseas, in particular. That is difficult to have impact on, even | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
by changing the interest rates as they are cash buyers but it is | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
important to be vigilant. We have given the Bank of England | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
significant powers to act if they see there is a problem and that | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
there is a bubble developing. That is in no-one's interest. | :20:54. | :21:00. | |
What can they do about Russian oligarchs coming in? Yes, there is a | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
stamp duty increase. As you increase the cost, it should have an impact | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
on the bank as well. You sir? I wanted to illustrate a point on the | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
house bubble. I tried to buy one in London in December. I could not | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
afford it. The house prices are about half a million for a three | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
bedroom property. I have moved from London that is fine. From the time I | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
bought the house in December for 285,000, the company listed a new | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
property exactly the same for 345,000, so in that short period of | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
time, my house price has gone up ?50,000. | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
Where is that? In Stevenage. Billy Bragg? The problem with | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
buy-to-let, now the individual pensions have more or less | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
disappeared. If you put the money in the bank, it will disappear. People | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
are desperate to find something that they believe will give a return. In | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
that sense, buying a property does make economic sense. The knock-on | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
effect on somewhere like London is a housing shortage and a rise in the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
prices. You talk about the success of London. One in four Londoners are | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
on Housing Benefit because of the prices in London. In our capital | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
city should be able to live here. People want to work here. It is not | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
helped by the fact that since the 1980s, councils have not been | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
allowed to buy houses after social housing was sold off. There has been | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
a cap on building houses. We are in a situation where the growth we are | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
getting is driven by household debt. This is not sustainable. One part is | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
demand and supply. Where I agree with you is that land banks have not | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
been freed up. There are certain institutions... We need a solid land | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
tax on people... People own holding land. And even Government and the | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
National Health has large tracts of land. | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
I echo what the gentleman said earlier. The houses in the roads | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
where I am living have gone up 38% in 18 months. My concern is what | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
happens to the provision of essential services in the areas? The | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
teachers, the nurses, where are they going to live? I would like to | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
challenge Sajid Javid on something. I know he knows his economics, how | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
about help-to-buy, I imlower you to learn the lessons of the American | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
housing boom and bust, help-to-buy it is great politics in the | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
short-term but it can have chrome economic effects. There is not a | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
time we stopped putting money behind subsidising debt in the mortgage | :23:56. | :24:04. | |
market and building more. APPLAUSE | :24:05. | :24:05. | |
The moths important thing about housing, and the starting point is | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
that people need housing to live in. The difficulty is if it becomes just | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
a question of investment. Investment in people as they are compensating | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
for not having a pension or investment as they see the property | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
market zooming up, so they incest in buying cash, overseas buyers. I | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
think we definitely need, Martin need, this is a supply and demand | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
issue. We have not built the homes we need a massive building | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
programme. That includes affordable housing built by the councils if you | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
do help-to-buy but not supply the homes, all that happens is that the | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
prices go up and more people from abroad see it as a massive | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
investment. I don't know how Sajid Javid can say that there is not a | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
house bubble in London it is worse than a bubble. The prices have gone | :24:55. | :25:04. | |
mad. We urgently need more building. APPLAUSE | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
The woman in yellow at the back? I don't have a problem with buy-to-let | :25:08. | :25:16. | |
but what I find concerning is that the builds designated to bring first | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
time buyers on to the property market are being sold off-plan in | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
East Asia. That is a problem as someone who wants to use | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
help-to-buy, if that is used as an investment, it defeats the purpose. | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
What about Martin Sorrell saying that this is a big city, people wish | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
to put their money here? I think in that case if the homes cost ?500,000 | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
or ?1 million, if that is taken up by people as a second investment or | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
property, it is not as concerning as if new homes are built with the | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
intention to the help-to-buy scheme is used for the first-time-buyers, | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
that should be used for the residents planning to live in them, | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
not investment for a second property. | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
APPLAUSE. Kirsty Williams? I agree that part | :26:11. | :26:19. | |
of the problem is cultural. We see houses as investment rather than | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
bricks and mortar and homes to live in. The point about the key workers | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
is crucial. We are in danger of creating imbalance in the society, | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
which is not good for anybody, even those who can afford to live here | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
and buy properties. The lack of key workers will be a real problem for | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
them. I think we need to address the issue of the number of hourses that | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
are built. The type of houses that are being built. I would love to get | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
back to a situation where we are really focussing on the councils, or | :26:55. | :27:02. | |
whether it is Regstered social landlords making the properties | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
available and how to deal with the oligarchs, then use the tax system | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
as a mansion tax to gain revenue for the troughry to be put back into | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
building houses that ordinary people can afford to live in. It is not | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
just acute in London but believe me, there are parts in Cardiff and rural | :27:24. | :27:30. | |
Wales where people who were brought up in the communities cannot afford | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
to live in them any longer. Sajid Javid, you said it was not a | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
bubble. How do you know? There has been a steep increase in the prices | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
at the moment? I rely on the experts. The experts at the Bank of | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
England. That what they are there for. They do a very good job. These | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
are the macro fundamentals of the economy... You are not convincing | :27:55. | :28:02. | |
Harriet! And a couple of other points. | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
No, just answer that one. If that is what it takes to be an expert on the | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
Bank of England, I could be one. There is obviously a housing bubble. | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
It needs to be addressed. There is no good saying that the Bank of | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
England says there is not a housing bubble. | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
Go to my constituency, they will not take you seriously. | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
Housebuilding is as the lowest peacetime level since the 1920s. The | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
houses built in London are not affordable. There is an area, the | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
land to be knocked down and the land sold, do you think that there will | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
be affordable housing there? At Charing Cross Hospital? How much of | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
that will be affordable housing? Lots of people need to live locally. | :28:50. | :28:57. | |
APPLAUSE Let me introduce facts to the | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
argument of Billy's. Billy talked of inflation. That is 1. 8%. The lowest | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
level we have seen below the rate of 2%. Billy talked of social housing. | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
So did Harriet. Under Labour, social housing fell by 420,000 units, under | :29:15. | :29:22. | |
this Government it is up. Household debt was 170% of average earnings | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
under the previous Government in 2009, it is down with the last | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
Government. The average wage is down by ?1600 | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
since the General Election. How do you expect people to be able toy | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
afford to get on the housing ladder, not just in London. | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
Then look at why the wages are down. That is because our country went | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
through the great recession, the deepest in almost 100 years. Of | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
course the wages are down. The wage is down as workers no | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
longer have proper representation in the workplace. | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
You have put forward inconvenient truths, Harriet? The idea we're | :30:10. | :30:20. | |
going to be told that everybody is better off and living standards are | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
rising, it looks completely out of touch. People are struggling to make | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
ends meet, pay is stagnant, costs are going up, presenting a mouthful | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
of figures to say, these are the indicators, the recovery is on its | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
way, people will say the recovery has not arrived at my door. The fact | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
that there is no inflation, or limited inflation, the Bank of | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
England is worried about deflation. You see house prices increasing at | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
the rate you here, just the evidence from the people in the audience, | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
surely that demonstrates there is a house bubble? House prices are due | :30:54. | :31:03. | |
here, they are going about a very rapid rate at a time when we don't | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
have inflation, and I'm so worried about that fact and the fact we | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
might have deflation as a result. -- and banks are worried. London or UK | :31:12. | :31:18. | |
wide? I think it is at its height in London. What do you do about a | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
bubble? Be blunt about it, buy to let was a political move. It was a | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
move that was... Help to buy. Sorry, yes. That was a political move. It | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
was done as a political move because it would be very popular. The | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
problem is, be careful what you wish for. Prior to the election it | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
resulted in significant house price inflation. The man second row from | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
the back? Sajid Javid is talking about how the Bank of England hasn't | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
seen this coming, but last I checked they didn't see the last problem. | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
The Bank of England doesn't actually put house prices in when it | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
calculates for inflation. Apparently, I'm not sure. The reason | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
the Bank of England didn't see the last problem, the credit crisis, is | :32:11. | :32:19. | |
because Labour tuck away responsibility and gave it to the | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
FSA. We have given the power back to the Bank of England because it | :32:26. | :32:27. | |
should not have been taken away in the first place. Can I just address | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
the help to buy issue, why have we introduced that? It is because there | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
is plenty of evidence that there are many people, especially young | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
people, that can afford mortgage payments, comfortably afford | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
mortgage payments, but they don't have rich parents that can help them | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
get a ?40,000 deposit. I make no apologies to help people get on the | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
housing ladder and have their own home and meet their aspirations. | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
That is the purpose of help to buy and I'm glad it's working. It's also | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
a temporary scheme, unlike the US scheme, where divine covenant has | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
powers of control over some of the parameters. It will last three | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
years. It has a three-year shelf life and I think that is the right | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
way to intervene in the market, a temporary process that addresses the | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
issue. It is not true to say that the global financial crisis was | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
caused by anything that the Labour government did or bios setting up | :33:20. | :33:21. | |
the Financial Services Authority. That is just absolutely ridiculous. | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
And also, the Conservatives were arguing for us to deregulate | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
financial services when we were in government. Let's not rewind that | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
argument that we have had many times here. There is a pub in Hackney, | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
every time you say that and you say that, they have to drink a glass of | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
wine because they are so fed up with it. On the right, briefly, if you | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
would? I don't believe everybody wants to buy their own home, I don't | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
think there is anything wrong with increasing housing stock so people | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
can rent in affordable housing. When you talk about affordable housing, | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
think about people who are on a third of the salaries MPs are on. | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
You have to earn the not everybody is on ?66,000 a year. You have to | :34:08. | :34:14. | |
gear the rents for people to afford them and provide for their families | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
as well. When people say affordable housing, do you smell a rat? I think | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
politicians in particular have lost touch with the realities of people's | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
finances. There are people that are still only earning ?20,000 per year, | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
trying to live in London and pay their rent and they will never be | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
able to afford to buy. But they would be happy to rent a council | :34:37. | :34:44. | |
home. Lindsey Copeman, please? If Martin McGuinness is able to dine | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
with the Queen, should we draw a line under all offences committed | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
during The Troubles, prior to the Good Friday Agreement, thus saving | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
the taxpayer great expense? Kirsty Williams? I can't begin to put | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
myself in the shoes of those that have lost people in The Troubles at | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
the hands of the IRA, and I can't begin to imagine how they must feel | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
to see Martin McGuinness go to Buckingham Palace as part of the | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
Irish President's state visit. What I am certain of is that nobody in | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
this country, and I don't think anybody in Ireland, wants to go back | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
to The Troubles. We have got to find a way of moving forward. Sometimes | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
that has painful images and painful things that we have got to deal | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
with. What is clearly left outstanding from the peace process | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
is our historic issues and historic crimes, how those can best be dealt | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
with. We have got to find new impetus behind talked to look at a | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
reconciliation process to address those concerns. I don't think we | :35:56. | :36:03. | |
will truly move forward from the Troubles, until those things are | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
laid to rest on a reconciliation process that all sides can feel | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
happy with. When you abandon prosecution of crimes, murders, | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
assassinations and forms and all the rest of it, that happened before the | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
Good Friday Agreement? I think things need to be properly | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
investigated, where there are cases two and some people that can be | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
brought to justice, I think justice needs to be seen to be done and | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
needs to be done. We also need, alongside that, some of those issues | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
are never going to be brought before a court of law. We have got to find | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
some way of creating a conciliation process that can bring those | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
communities together, otherwise we will never achieve the well-being | :36:47. | :36:55. | |
that we want for the people of Northern Ireland who have suffered | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
so dreadfully. Peter Hain spoke about this and said he thought there | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
should be an end to prosecutions of offences committed before the Good | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
Friday Agreement. Was he right to say that? Do you agree with that? I | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
don't think you can just simply say that and say I think there should be | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
an end to prosecutions. I think it is right that there should be a | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
process to look at how you deal with these cases from the past, as Kirsty | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
said, as part of the reconciliation process. But I think you have to | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
have the victims, it can't just be a politician on this programme saying | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
they think that is the case, there has to be a process with which the | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
victims are at the heart. I think it was remarkable what happened with | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
the Irish President's state visit. To have the Queen, after all, whose | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
uncle was killed in a terrorist attack, being part of that | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
reconciliation process, I thought it was remarkable and highly | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
significant. There needs to be now, I think, after the end of the | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
talks, which stopped, we need all-party talks to look at not only | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
prosecutions but also parades and flags. But it has to be a process | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
that involves all sides and has the victims of the heart of it. It is | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
not for us to pronounce we are fed up with spending public money on | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
this, let's move on. We can't do that, we have to have a process that | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
takes everybody with us. We've made a lot of progress, I'm sure we can | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
make more. Something close to my heart, as you can hear from my | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
accent. I think Peter Hain's comments were insulting to me. I | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
think the people of Northern Ireland have swallowed a lot of bitter | :38:45. | :38:46. | |
pills. There are what you call terrorist Sindh government. I would | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
ask Peter Hain, tell that to the sons and daughters of Jean | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
McConville, still waiting for a resolution of their problem. Yes, | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
let's move on, let's move on, people that have served time for crimes, | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
fine. Like in Birmingham, where the other day a number of people, the | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
Chief Constable told people of Birmingham who have lost family | :39:11. | :39:12. | |
members that they were not going to reinvestigate that, I think that is | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
an insult. These crimes need to be investigated to the full extent of | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
the law and then we can move on. APPLAUSE | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
What was your reaction to seeing Martin McGuinness in a white tie and | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
tails at the banquet? It's a bitter pill, but it is a pill | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
I am willing to swallow when Northern Ireland is hosting the tour | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
of Italy. The country has moved on. While I hate the fact he is there | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
toasting the Queen, who am I to say? I think the gentleman's comments are | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
the hopes that all of us have for long-term resolution in Ireland. | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
They do rely on people like this gentleman being prepared to swallow | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
bitter pills. It must be very, very difficult. All of the things that | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
happened as a result of the Good Friday Agreement, the agreement | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
between politicians, the people of the Irish Republic voted to drop | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
their territorial claim to the north of Ireland, the most difficult of | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
those things with the people of Northern Ireland seeing themselves | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
people being released and out of the streets, that had been convicted of | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
terrorist crimes. That is a very bitter pill. Though I believe in | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
long-term reconciliation and resolution in Northern Ireland, we | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
do need to perhaps swallow some more bitter pills. I think it should be | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
that whatever the decision is made, it should apply to everyone, it | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
should apply to Republicans, unionists and British soldiers, | :40:51. | :40:52. | |
whatever decision is made, ultimately. As Harriet said, the | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
concerns of people that have been directly affected by this, who have | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
lost loved ones, there concerns have got to be paramount in the | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
decision-making process. You, sir? My concern is that there is a danger | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
that by forgiving and not prosecuting terrorists, you | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
validated as a political means. I think that is a big danger and sets | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
a precedent for the future. Martin Sorrell? I think most of it has been | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
said, but there are two levels. What about what he said? I agree with it, | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
one level we have to move forward and forgive, can't forget. There is | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
a quid pro quo, prosecution has to continue, whichever side, soldiers | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
that have abused their position, terrorists, I agree with that point. | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
At two levels, it has to operate. I think it was uncomfortable for the | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
Queen, having lost a family member. You think about Norman Taggart's | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
wife, all of these things, -- Norman Tebbit. I totally disagree with | :42:01. | :42:08. | |
Peter Hain. You have to pursue justice in the way that we talking | :42:09. | :42:16. | |
about. Sajid Javid? I agree with the gentleman from Northern Ireland that | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
spoke earlier, and I disagree with Peter Hain on this. There was | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
terrible suffering in Northern Ireland. Many people lost their | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
lives and lost loved ones. Given all of that, I think John Major was | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
still right to start the peace process. It required, as we have | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
heard, some very difficult decisions to be made, really difficult | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
compromise. No one can underestimate how difficult that is. As we have | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
seen this week, particularly with the Queen, it is an opportunity to | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
pay tribute to her for the role she has played in this and we saw that | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
again today. I think the rewards are there for all of us to see. It has | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
been a sacrifice, but it has been worthwhile to bring peace to | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
Northern Ireland. In defence of Peter Hain, he has been Northern | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
Ireland Secretary. So he may have some insights that led him to make | :43:04. | :43:15. | |
that decision. You, sir? We all praised Mandela for reconciliation | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
and forgiveness in South Africa. If you look at the number of people | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
that were killed in Soweto, the number of people that were killed in | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
Northern Ireland, why is it that we cannot forget the past? I have a lot | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
of sympathy for the gentleman here. At the same time, we should be able | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
to move forward. If there are people identified to be prosecuted, you can | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
do that. To say that we continue to live in the past is, it is something | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
I find unbelievable. OK, thank you very much. | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
Let's go on. Hajarah Batanda, please. What is the point of raising | :43:54. | :44:03. | |
student fees 145% of students not expected to earn enough to repay | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
their student loan? These reports that have coming through, despite | :44:09. | :44:16. | |
the fact that student fees have gone from ?3000 to ?9,000 per year, | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
everybody is now saying the Government is not getting the money | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
back anyway, so why did they bother to do it? | :44:24. | :44:31. | |
I was the first member of my family to go to university. It opened up | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
opportunities for me. I want as many young people to access those | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
opportunities for themselves. What it does mean, though, is that we | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
need to have a university system that financially is sustainable for | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
the long-term. This is an issue, it has been an issue for a long time. | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
When Harriet was in office. The Government rightly set up the Brown | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
Review to look into the issue. It was clear from the way that things | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
were going, the old system was not to work. It needed to change. We | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
introduced the use of loans, the higher fees, and the intention was | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
to make sure that it is sustainable and to make sure that students from | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
poorer backgrounds, like myself when I went to university, are not put | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
off, and the evidence is encouraging in that the number of students going | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
into the system, even with the changes, is higher than it was | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
before. But the question is, you put the | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
fees up, you allowed the university to put up the fees from ?3,000 to | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
?9,000 but the evidence is saying that it is counterproductive. That | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
70% of students will not pay the loan off and 4 a -- 45% will not | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
earn the money to pay it off either. Is that what you are on about? Just | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
go on, tell him what you think. I can answer that point. | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
You don't know her point. That answer was my point. Row I don't | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
want to do your work for you. I don't see the purpose of raising | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
the fees if you are not expecting anything back in return? What is the | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
point of bringing it up from ?3,000 ah to ?9,000, if the people cannot | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
pay back the money? It is not clear. When the Government introduced the | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
system, at the time we did, because the way it works is after 30 years | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
if you have not paid off the loans, for the fees, for the maintenance, | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
it is forgiven. That was the intention of the system.ed idea | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
again is to help people, not to see this as a huge burden on them, to | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
link the payments to the salaries that they earn. And as the report | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
said today it is a progressive system, so that those who earn the | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
most pay the most. That is the right thing. There was always an element | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
to be written off. The Government estimated it could be about 25%. But | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
in the new system, there is an estimate, I don't know if the IFS | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
numbers are correct but it was foreseen that an element would be | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
written off. So, 23% to 73%, is that correct? I | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
cannot tell you. But there was always a principle that some of it | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
would be written off. The point is, if the majority of | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
students are not paying it back, you may as well pay it through the | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
taxpayer. Is that the argument? That is exactly it. At what point you | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
decide then that the game is not worth the candle? And just fund | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
students to go the university. The burden of... For those people who | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
don't pay back the money, the burden is taken on by the ex-checker? The | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
burden was always planned to be taken by the ex-checker for the | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
portion. Then why not giving it to them in | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
the first place. Instead of making it a hurdle. For many that is a huge | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
amount of money. Just say, you can fund people to go to university. | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
Because as what level does it get to that you think this is working | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
better? There is a principle at work it is fair that students that go to | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
university, that benefit the most from the education should be asked | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
to pay a little more when they graduate. I think that is fair. Why | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
should the young person that decided not to go to university, sub | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
subsuddenise those that have decided to go. | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
Then why not just tax the graduates? That is Harriet's policy, not ours. | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
Ask her. If we funded everybody who wanted to | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
go to go, and those that from successful, graduated and tax them. | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
Is that not a fairer way. Harriet, come in on this. How we | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
ended up on the situation, we said we wanted to see many more young | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
people going on to higher education. We wanted to see more funds going | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
into higher education to deal with this. So we put in more public money | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
but said that some of the students themselves mutt put some money in, | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
so we introduced tuition fees. That was controversial, up to ?3,000. But | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
the idea was that some money came from the public purse, some from the | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
students. What the Conservatives and the Lib Demes did, is that they took | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
the public money out and slashed that. They put all of the money on | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
to the students. Raising it to ?9,000, and now, surprise, surprise, | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
the students, as they are unable to go out and earn and then pay it | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
back, they have seen therefore a collapse in the funding. This sounds | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
like another one. And the point is that the situation has completely | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
failed and needs to be looked at again. | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
APPLAUSE So, the Liberal Democrats are being | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
blamed by this too, by Harriet Harman, is this your fault? Well, | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
they did vote for it, let's be fair. Actually, I don't think that any | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
political party has got the right to say here that they have done the | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
right thing necessarily about the fees. The Labour Party said that | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
they never introduced the feeses, they did. They said they would not | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
increase them, they did. We have paid a heavy price for making a | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
pledge that we could not keep and Nick Clegg has apologised for that. | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
Many, many, many, many times! Yes, many, many, many times! Now the | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
issue is, is this policy a barrier to people going to university? The | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
figures would suggest not. The number of people of our poorest | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
students applying are actually going. Members from our minority | :51:10. | :51:17. | |
ethnic communities are going up. In Wales, where we have a more generous | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
system, actually, that is not the case. | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
So the more generous system fewer people are going? If you look at the | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
number of people applying, there is a differentiation, and one would | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
have thought that is counterindue incompetentive to think that. What I | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
am saying is if you look at the facts, despite people claiming that | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
this would put people off university but the numbers are going up. I am | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
confused, is this I if S a project ex-? Ewhy. | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
So the system is not in place long enough for us to know. | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
It is a study. It talks about 23% and 37%. | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
He said 23%, they say 37%. That will not pay off all debts. | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
You are come pairing apples with apples. | :52:16. | :52:23. | |
Don't confuse me of that! That says 73% of students will fail. But the | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
20% number I use is the total debt. That is not the total amount. You | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
are not doing it deliberately but it is not accurate! You should bring | :52:35. | :52:45. | |
your own notes in! 45% of the loan goes unpaid, not 23%. | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
Maybe I should sit there the next time. | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
I would favour a system where people as we have said before, where people | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
pay, ultimately, for the benefit of going to university. I don't, I | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
think it is a right, and also a responsibility. Not dissimilar to | :53:08. | :53:15. | |
the American system, where people make a sacrifice to go and there is | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
a benefit and then they in some way pay for that benefit. | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
The nan the beard. Policies made in the private sector, | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
where there is a project ex-made, one allows for the differences, 23%, | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
fine, 45%, you take that into account when setting a retail price, | :53:38. | :53:46. | |
so that one is not surprised. At the end of the day, 9, 500 was a was an | :53:47. | :53:56. | |
estimate. We have time for a last question, | :53:57. | :54:06. | |
Tessa Stuart. Does the televising of Pistorius' | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
trial help or hinder the course of genuine justice? You may have seen | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
the scenes in Africa of the trial. Martin Sorrell, what is your view? | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
It hinders. Because? Public exposure, the | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
theatrics. Possible miss interpretation, | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
publicly. I think at that this particular trial, indeed others | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
should be behind closed doors and decided in that case, not by the | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
jury but by the judge. Sajid Javid? I think that it hinders | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
too it sensationalises a really important case. It is a case that | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
affected, tragically, a number of lives. It should not be public. | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
Billy Bragg? I think it hinders as well. I find it difficult to listen | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
to the dialogue in the court and to listen to Pistorius himself. | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
Do you think that the presence of the cameras and the voice being | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
heard is changing the way that he gives evidence to the judge? I think | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
that the fact it is televised and we are used to seeing reality TV. It is | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
reality TV, it comes over as such. I don't think that helps in the form | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
of justice. And you sir? I think it has been a circus, a disgrace to the | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
families involved. And Pistorius's wife to be, I think that her family | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
have been completely forgotten about. | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
Tessa Stuart, what is your view? I fail to see how justice canoe cure | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
where everything is out in the social media. It just gives the | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
media an opportunity to distort and prey on and change the course of | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
events. That is my strong feeling. Again, the whole circus around | :55:58. | :56:05. | |
Pistorius. It must be immensely distress distressing to Reeva | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
Steenkamp's family, immensely distressing. | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
I was going to say I think it has become almost not about the trial | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
anymore it is just about who can cry the most and what kind of faces that | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
they are pulling and regardless of whether or not Pistorius is guilty | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
or innocent or whether he is telling the truth, it has become not about | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
what really happened about that night, or finding the truth. It has | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
become a circus it is disgusting. Harriet Harman? I think we have been | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
moving in this country to more openness in our justice system. For | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
example we started for the first time to televise in courts but it | :56:49. | :56:57. | |
has been carefully control. -- coaled. So it has started with the | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
judgment being televised. I think it is difficult for the situation that | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
we have there. One of the questions in the Pistorius case, one of the | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
things very much in my mind, is that he is not on camera. We can hear him | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
but he is not on camera but the mother and the father of the victim | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
and the relatives, they are on camera all of the time. I wonder why | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
they don't have protection in that situation. It must be beyond | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
excruciating for them. Kirsty Williams? I welcome the | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
greater transparency in the judicial process that we have in the country. | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
But having witnessed of what we have seen of the Pistorius trial it has | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
echos of the OJ Simpson trial, I think we have to trade carefully | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
before we decide to put this kind of exposure to some of our case cases. | :57:48. | :57:54. | |
There is pressure building up to make it more open? There is | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
pressure. In some ways it has been happening. There has been tweeting | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
from the phone hacking trial. You can almost follow that minute by | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
minute. So we have to trade carefully. What we have seen | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
recently is unnedifying. One wonder what is value that does to the South | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
African judicial system. Something tells me that our time is | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
up. We have to stop you there. Apologies for those of you with your | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
hands up. We are away. It is Parliament's Easter break. We are | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
back on the 1st of May. We are in Leeds then. Yvette Cooper from | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
Labour is there. The Liberal Democrat party planner, Tim Farron. | :58:40. | :58:48. | |
Nick Bowles and the week after we are in Southampton. | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
So if you wish to come to either Leeds or Southampton, then do the | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
usual thing. Go to the website and aah ply there. There is the address: | :58:57. | :59:12. | |
I would like to thank or panel and all of you who came here to take | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
part in the panel. Until three weeks from now, from West London, good | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
night. | :59:20. | :59:27. |