01/05/2014 Question Time


01/05/2014

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Leeds, with Yvette Cooper, Tim Farron, Conor Burns, Suzanne Evans and Simon Jenkins.


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Transcript


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Tonight, we are in Leeds. Welcome to Question Time.

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Welcome to you at home, to our audience who will be putting

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questions to the panel, who do not know the questions until they hear

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them. Labour's Shadow Home Secretary, Yvette Cooper. President

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. UKIP's communities

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spokesman, Suzanne Evans. Writer and chairman of The National Trust,

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Simon Jenkins. And the Conservative MP Conor Burns.

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The first question, please, from Martin Mullen. Should British high

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schools have airport style security installed following the tragic

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murder of Anne Maguire? This dreadful event earlier this week.

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Should there be airport style security installed in schools, ,

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Bourbons? Let me start by directly answering the question, no, I do not

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think there should be airport style security in schools. This has been a

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tragic, appalling incident in this school in this community. But we

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make our worst laws in this country when we legislate on the back of a

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very emotional situations. The worst thing politicians can ever say is

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more I am going to legislate to ensure that ex never happens again.

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If you see some footage in American schools, where it is like going into

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a war is own to get into a classroom, I do not want to go down

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that route. Can I say a word about the tragic event at Corpus Christi

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College and the murder of Anne Maguire? The more one finds out

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about it, the more poignant it becomes. 40 years of service to that

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school, to different generations of new polls. Children of former pupils

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coming to pay tribute to her. The fact that she was in school, helping

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her students get the very best start in life, on her day off, the fact

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that she was only one term away from retirement, all adds to the

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poignancy of those events. I remember when my own headmaster

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retired, and I dug out his retirement speech. I was educated in

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a Catholic school. He talked about how, I hurt with you when some tried

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periodically to bring the violence of society into the school

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community. But the worst thing that we could do is to destroy that

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school community by making it not a place of learning but a place of

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fear. And can I say quickly, we have all, I imagine, thought about

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teachers who have made a real difference to us. Anne Maguire's

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murder touched a chord in the nation. And I hope that, through her

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death, we will shine a light in the fact that in all the schools in this

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country we are so blessed to have the dedication of so many teachers,

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for whom teaching is not a job but a vocation that they dedicate their

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lives to. APPLAUSE

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So, the question is, should high schools have airport style security

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after this murder. Simon Jenkins. No, of course they

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should not. I agree with everything that has been said and the whole

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panel will share that feeling at the moment. All that I would say in

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addition is that the concept of fear as a driver of policy is really

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dangerous. I am a Londoner and I see on the streets of London police with

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guns all the time. They are there because someone, somewhere has said

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there is a slight risk of a terrorist attack. All right, there

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is a slight risk. Everyone goes about with slight risks attached to

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life. If you give into that slight risk, given to the policy of fear,

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you capitulate to it, you give into it. I don't think that is what we

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should do. The one thing we can take from these tragedies is a reinforced

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determination not to give into the politics and policies of fear. The

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question was, should we have airport style security in schools, and I

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absolutely agree that laws made in haste are bad laws. When I was 15

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years old I went to a school exchange trip to France and spent a

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week in a French school. I was horrified that there was a high

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security fence around and security guards inside. It was such a

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contrast to the beautiful rural school I was privileged to go to in

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Shropshire. I thought, please may our schools in Britain never been

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like this. The woman in the third row from the back. Instead of

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police, maybe there should be a type of person, if any of the pupils have

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concerns or any thoughts like that, maybe somebody there as a counsellor

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in a school, instead of airport style security, because that will

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just strike fear into pupils. Some different preventative measure.

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Yvette Cooper. I also think it would be completely wrong to have airport

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style security, not just in Corpus Christi, but in other schools as

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well. Everybody has been struck by the outpouring of support, as well

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as the grief, not just for Anne Maguire and her family, but for the

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whole school. It is a tribute to the headteacher, to the school itself,

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that they have worked so hard to support all of the pupils at such an

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awful time with such a dreadful thing to happen. I think as a result

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we should listen to the headteacher, listen to the community, and to what

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they have said, which is that they want to keep the community a part of

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the school because it is the community that supported them

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through such a dreadful tragedy as well. We should hear their views and

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support them. APPLAUSE

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There are some schools with metal detectors at the gates, aren't

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there? I think there is a big difference

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between schools where they had problems, for example, with teenage

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gangs over a considerable period of time, and where the headteacher

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themselves says they think there are some safety issues that need to be

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addressed, and a situation like this where nobody is saying that was the

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circumstance at Corpus Christi. In fact, circumstances were very

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different. I totally disagree with the fact that we should bring in

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airport style scammers and all that. It is very intimidating. I happen to

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work in the community and I knew Anne Maguire very well because I

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also work with the church. The government should be bringing in an

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intervention for these pupils. But nothing is being done to ensure that

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the problems are resolved. The government is not doing anything.

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There are so many cutbacks already within the Department for Education

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which has made a very negative impact on the schools and

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headteachers. Teachers have a problem time with the children.

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Children don't listen any more, so we have to come in and intervene,

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and it is not working. Teachers also should be guaranteed safety in the

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school. Policies should come in to play on all these things. What are

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your memories of her? She was a fantastic woman, very God-fearing.

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She played instruments, she loved every pupil. She treated everybody

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as if they were her own children. She had a passion to ensure that

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every child succeeds in the school. APPLAUSE

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I feel that teachers are under that much pressure with statistics,

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targets. They are so pressured into trying to

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make the school look good based on what the government is making them

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do, they do not have time to go back to the drawing board and look at the

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basic needs that children are wanting, because they are too busy

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trying to get the stats are up, like exams. In a couple of weeks my

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daughter is doing her exams. In year six, everything is about the exams

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and teachers do not have the time to be looking at the emotional

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well-being of children and the government needs to address this.

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Tim Farron. I know that is not the question, but you could not be more

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right. We need to value teachers and allow them to teach and not spend

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half their time doing things that are about ticking boxes and

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conforming to league tables and so on. It is a huge distraction and has

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been a wrong direction for education policy for 30 years. But to answer

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Martin's question, of course there should not be airport security or

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anything like it in our schools. It is hugely tempting when something as

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heartbreaking and bewildering as this takes place, for somebody who

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lives the kind of lives that we do in politics, to come up with a nice,

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simple, neat solution, and I haven't got one. I haven't got one. In the

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24-hour media world we live in, there is a desire to keep the story

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going, find another way of talking about it, keep it fresh. Let's

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instead stand in solidarity with the family and with Corpus Christi and

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recognise this as an appalling tragedy. For those of us who are not

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from Leeds and did not know Corpus Christi College until this moment

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and what a wonderful school community it is, what a dreadful way

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to find out. We have found out what an outstanding community it is, how

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fantastically people have stood with one another, what leadership the

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headteacher has shown, and what tremendous love and affection people

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at the school have shown. I am certain that Anne Maguire would be

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proud of all of you. APPLAUSE

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You asked the question originally. What do you think? There should be

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some form of added security at schools but I do think that airport

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style security is a bridge too far. Maybe somebody like a police

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community support officer. Or maybe somebody children can go to if they

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have any concerns, not just to protect children but teachers as

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well. And you on the right, sir. I doubt if airport style security

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would be effective. It is quite easy to take a piece of plastic into the

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school, or a piece of sharpened bone would have the same effect as a

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knife, so airport style security would be a waste of time. OK, let's

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go on. Just a reminder that you can join

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the debate on text or Twitter. Let's take a question now from

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Carolyn Booth-Jones, please. In light of recent news, is it fair to

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describe UKIP as a racist party? Is it fair to describe UKIP,

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represented here by Suzanne Evans, as a racist party? Tim Farron. I

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wouldn't say so. Clearly, there are individuals in UKIP who have come to

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the fore with opinions that would make the BNP wince. And you have the

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French National front reaching out to UKIP. I guess there is a sense

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where that would be a source of great embarrassment, but that is

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wrong to start playing the man rather than the ball. It was Barbara

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Roche from Labour who did this. My take is that in one sense the UKIP

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position, particularly on the European Union, is clear, and I kind

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of respect it, actually. If you want to leave the European Union, and I

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think it would risk several million jobs on our ability to tackle

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climate change, threaten a union that has helped keep peace in Europe

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for over 50 years, it would stop us catching criminals across borders,

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but if that is what you want, you know who you should vote for. If you

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believe those things are bad and it would be anti patriotic to do those

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things, I hope you will support the Liberal Democrats instead. The

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questions about these remarks which have led to people being suspended

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from UKIP, like saying Lenny Henry should go back to a Black Country

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and all the rest, does that make you think it is a racist party, or just

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one that attracts them? Those individuals are guilty of racism and

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have made appalling quotes and have appalling back history, including

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the guy who was on the party political broadcast the other week.

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We should be very careful in not trying to dismiss an entire

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political party. First of all, it is unfair. Having said that, UKIP up to

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account for some of the people they put up on their behalf, who have

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some of the most objectionable views. I will come to Suzanne Evans

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in a -- Yvette Cooper. This was described as a racist campaign by

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Barbara Roche, former Labour Immigration Minister. Do you agree?

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It is not racist to talk about immigration, to say you are worried

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about immigration, it is not racist to say you feel strongly about

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leaving Europe. I do think it is racist to say that Lenny Henry

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should leave the country because of the colour of his skin, as one of

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the Enfield candidates did say. APPLAUSE

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And there are other UKIP candidates who have said things I believe are

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racist. The old candidate who said that

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mosques should be pulled down. There is a Walsall candidate who has said

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Mo Farah cannot be British. We should challenge that race is where

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ever we hear it and UKIP should do so, too. The right and responsible

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thing for UKIP to do is to expel those candidates, take them off the

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ballot paper and not to be asking people to vote for them. If they do

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that, we can have a sensible conversation about the serious and

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legitimate issues, whether around Europe, around immigration,

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important issues. But they should not be marred by candidates pursuing

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divisive views. Just before I come to UKIP, what Barbara Roche said was

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that they are deploying the language and tactics used by openly racist

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parties like the BNP. Is that an accurate description? I have

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criticised the government for their go home adverts which they did last

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summer, which I think Drew on the language of the National Front.

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Unfortunately, this is your government which is doing it. When

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they were put up, the Labour opposition were silent and that of

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the Liberal Democrat to speak out. Those adverts were going round for

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months. You have Liberal Democrat ministers in the Home Office. It was

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two or three days. Unfortunately, that is not true, Tim. Trying to be

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outside the government when you are voting for every single thing that

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the government does just will not wash.

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The Labour spokes people, who were questioned about those racist vans,

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saying nothing because they were worried it would put off their

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voters I remember them saying. It was outrageous that any government -

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This is a fiction. It's also a distraction. We should bring UKIP

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back into this fight and leave the two of you for a moment. Suzanne

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Evans. Thank you. No, UKIP is not a racist party. I would certainly not

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be in it if it were. Neither does it attract racists in particular. We're

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currently running in the European elections at 38%. So that means a

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good sort of, just over a third of this audience, if you are a typical

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audience of the British voter, will be voting for UKIP. Technically that

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means you could be called racist. I know you're not. I know you're not.

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You know that you are not racist either. The problem that we've had

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is that UKIP has risen phenomenon Ali. We are being put under a huge

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amount of scrutiny. I have no problem with scrutiny. Everybody who

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stands for election for UKIP or any other party, I'm sure my colleagues

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would agree, must be subject to scrutiny. We cannot expect to stand

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for public office unless we are fit for public office. It has to be a

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fair playing field. How many of you in this audience know that seven

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councillors in the London borough of Harrow, all black minority ethnic

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councillors resigned from the Labour Party because they thought it was

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racist and discriminated against them? Hands up how many know that

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practically none of you. Maybe you should address it is to Miss Cooper.

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You would like to ask the audience. You can't ask the audience. Nobody

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put their hand up. Nobody knows that. A serious issue. It didn't

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make the national headlines or the lead story on the broadcast news.

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Barbara Roche, who we talked about, set up this campaign group. We know

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people being through our candidate's Twitter accounts. They are not doing

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it to other parties. Do you want to answer the charge. Do you know about

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this? There is always scrutiny of candidates. There rightly should be.

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Our view in the Labour Party is, where we have the suggestion of

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racism it should always be challenged. That is my point about

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what UKIP need to do. They need to ex-compel candidates expresses

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racist views. We do oond we have expelled all of them. That is not

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correct. I hope you do quickly. We can move on to a serious debate

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about the issues. The danger is that this row is preventing us from

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discussing what I think are genuine issues and concerns that people

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have. Some of them have been hijacked by UKIP, when there are

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important things, whether it is about immigration or the need for

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controls on immigration or to tackle the concerns that people have about

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the way that cheap migrant labour is exploited, to under cut wages and

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jobs. We need to deal with those sorts of issues. If we don't, then

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it's easy for a party like UKIP to build up anger rather than provide

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answers. It's answers that I think we need. We need to have a debate.

:19:28.:19:33.

By refusing to tackle these issues when you were in government for 13

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years. Barbara Roche and cross-party campaign that Barbara set up. No

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longer Labour? She is a Labour Party member. It was a cross-party

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campaign. My point is you need to have a serious debate about the

:19:52.:19:54.

issues and deal with individuals. OK. You, sir. My certain is that

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we've been talking about vetting candidates, however, obviously,

:20:00.:20:05.

there have been several in just recent history UKIP candidates. My

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question would be, how can we be sure that you are vetting your

:20:10.:20:12.

candidates? These aren't just views expressed in meetings that people

:20:13.:20:18.

have reported on. This is on social media. And, how - my question is,

:20:19.:20:26.

how did they get away with it? In the first place? Yes. The idea of

:20:27.:20:33.

vetting political candidates for being fruitcakes fascinates me. You

:20:34.:20:37.

wouldn't have many candidates left, some of the ones I know. I don't

:20:38.:20:40.

think it's a crime to be a fruitcake. I sympathies with

:20:41.:20:44.

Suzanne, they are under extraordinary scrutiny at the

:20:45.:20:48.

moment, all fringe parties tend to be. The thing I worry, the word

:20:49.:20:53.

"racist" it is like a law that says when you begin to lose an argument

:20:54.:21:00.

you mention Hitler, when you lose an argument you mention racism. A

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dangerous way trying to resolve a reasonable political debate. The

:21:05.:21:06.

reasonable political debate to my mind is about the nature of British

:21:07.:21:09.

borders and immigrants into this country. How far we can handle

:21:10.:21:13.

particular numbers of immigrants. What is the nature of citizenship in

:21:14.:21:17.

Britain? Real questions, which are not related to race. I don't think

:21:18.:21:20.

it helps the debate about them, which many people have been

:21:21.:21:23.

concerned about for a long time now, largely ignored by the major

:21:24.:21:26.

political parties, to say the people who do raise them are racist. That

:21:27.:21:31.

is wrong. OK. The woman there, on the left and in black-and-white.

:21:32.:21:36.

Yes. I'd like to read you a bit from the UKIP leaflet that came through

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my door. Speed up. Let's have it. "These are anxious and trouble times

:21:43.:21:46.

as crisis has fold crisis. Our politicians are doing nothing in the

:21:47.:21:49.

face of dangers rearing up around us. Violent crime erupts in our

:21:50.:21:55.

cities. It goes on" it's the politics of fear. Everything we hear

:21:56.:22:02.

that comes from UKIP. APPLAUSE

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To answer the question directly. I don't think UKIP is necessarily a

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racist party. Although I think they have racist people in it. As they

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emerge they are dealing with them. That is clear. The guy who talked

:22:17.:22:21.

about Lenny henny going back to a black country. I was reminded after

:22:22.:22:27.

Lenny Henry's comments after Enoch powels speech where he offered him

:22:28.:22:31.

?1,000 to go home. Which was generous as a ticket to Birmingham

:22:32.:22:35.

cost ?10. My worry about UKIP is not that are a racist party, they are an

:22:36.:22:41.

ineffective party. We saw what happened when we elected people from

:22:42.:22:47.

the European parliament have not turned up and done the job. David

:22:48.:22:52.

Cameron negotiated in the council in the E EU Summit a cut of 34 billion

:22:53.:23:02.

to euros. Nigel Farage and seven other UKIP MEPs failed to turn up to

:23:03.:23:05.

support the resolution that implemented that cut. I think they

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are a vent for protest. They are whipping up anger. Speaking to some

:23:10.:23:13.

of the worst fears and frustrations of austerity and concern about

:23:14.:23:17.

immigration. I think the sooner that they actually spark the mainstream

:23:18.:23:23.

parties, as Yvette says rightly, to engage in the arguments seriously

:23:24.:23:26.

the better. The sooner they will recede to where they came from.

:23:27.:23:32.

There are Conservative councillors who made offensive comments? We all

:23:33.:23:36.

have people in our parties. Is the only party that will not allow

:23:37.:23:42.

former members of the BNP to join. One lied last week. We kicked him

:23:43.:23:46.

out straightaway. The Conservative have a former BNP member standing as

:23:47.:23:55.

a candidate. The Lib Dems have someone convicted of a racially

:23:56.:24:00.

aggravated assault. We don't have the monopoly of the stupidity. You

:24:01.:24:05.

are ahead of the field. No. Let me come back to that.

:24:06.:24:09.

APPLAUSE The man up there with the beard on,

:24:10.:24:13.

I mean beard, not on! Not suggesting you came in disguise. We are talking

:24:14.:24:17.

about racism as if it should be a big issue in today's world. We are

:24:18.:24:21.

all human beings, we are equal in society. Different cultures and

:24:22.:24:25.

different nations made Great Britain today what it has been over

:24:26.:24:30.

centuries. United Kingdom regardless of anyone's colour or beliefs. If we

:24:31.:24:34.

work together we are human beings at the end of the day in a peaceful

:24:35.:24:40.

society. APPLAUSE

:24:41.:24:43.

UKIP is not classed as a racist party, then that's fine. Do you not

:24:44.:24:48.

tend to agree the way you go about your campaign provokes the general

:24:49.:24:53.

public to be racist. I recently heard when Nigel Farage was visiting

:24:54.:24:57.

Wales the visit had to be stopped because of UKIP supporters and

:24:58.:25:03.

fellow people arguing over racism? No. No. Can I just answer that.

:25:04.:25:11.

Briefly? No. I mean, Nigel Farage is possibly being stopped from speaking

:25:12.:25:15.

at public meetings at the moment because of antifascist groups which,

:25:16.:25:20.

frankly, are among the most facist people I have encountered. There is

:25:21.:25:25.

a hard wing in this party of anti-UKIP feeling people who want to

:25:26.:25:30.

pleat completely shut down the debate. They will not allow free

:25:31.:25:33.

speech. These people have no interest in democracy. That is

:25:34.:25:37.

something that UKIP stands for fundamentally. All right. A couple

:25:38.:25:42.

could of quick figures. We have fielding 2,235 candidates in the

:25:43.:25:45.

local elections on 22nd May. More than we've ever fieldled before. The

:25:46.:25:50.

amount of people that have been caught out doing something wrong so

:25:51.:25:55.

far, it's about 0.3%. Let us put that into context. In 2011, 0.61% of

:25:56.:26:04.

members of parliament were in prison. We are doing a lot better

:26:05.:26:12.

than MPs in the House of Commons. Less non-statistics. A point from

:26:13.:26:16.

you in the middle there. The time it took UKIP to respond and condemn the

:26:17.:26:20.

Lenny Henry tweet say it is all. They are bigots and use scare

:26:21.:26:25.

tactics to try and get votes. One hand up there. I will take from you

:26:26.:26:30.

as well. We will then move on. If UKIP are coming across as a racist

:26:31.:26:34.

party due to a few members saying some racist comments, does it mean

:26:35.:26:41.

that Labour are all fraudsters after the (inaudible) scandal? Is

:26:42.:26:49.

Absolutely. We are four months off an incredibly important vote as to

:26:50.:26:55.

whether the United Kingdom stands together. UKIP are focussing on

:26:56.:27:01.

fear, and it makes it more likely this country will fragment. We are

:27:02.:27:05.

better together full stop. The mistake UKIP made was to go for

:27:06.:27:11.

immigration. It was about Europe. UKIP is about Europe, not

:27:12.:27:19.

immigration. Immigration is, in a sense, the politics of fear. That is

:27:20.:27:24.

the last thing you want in politics. Immigration is what people in this

:27:25.:27:27.

country tell us they are concerned about. 60% of black minority ethnic

:27:28.:27:32.

community people say they are worried about. We are politicians we

:27:33.:27:40.

cannot ignore 70%, the major - We should be talking about immigration.

:27:41.:27:43.

We should be talking about immigration. We should talk about

:27:44.:27:46.

everything. This election is about Europe. It's right to talk about

:27:47.:27:49.

immigration. It's something that people are concerned about. We said

:27:50.:27:53.

that we, in the Labour Party, got things wrong in Government in

:27:54.:27:57.

immigration. - Are you saying immigration is not a European issue?

:27:58.:28:02.

Of course, it is. Electing members of the European parliament. I'm keen

:28:03.:28:07.

on elections being on what the election is about. It's about

:28:08.:28:10.

electing a member of the European parliament. If it was about electing

:28:11.:28:14.

members Members of the European Parliament do you think members

:28:15.:28:17.

would take it as seriously as they seem to be. I come back to the

:28:18.:28:21.

question about the politics of fear. People are afraid of things. One of

:28:22.:28:26.

the reason why I admire UKIP in this sense is they had the guts to say,

:28:27.:28:31.

you suppressed this debate for a quarter of the century. We raised

:28:32.:28:34.

the questions and will give you a party you can vote for. I respect

:28:35.:28:37.

this. This particular election, I care about Europe one way or

:28:38.:28:40.

another, I'm sorry if actually the election is no longer about Europe.

:28:41.:28:45.

It is about immigration and the tendency to couch that in racist

:28:46.:28:48.

terms. Let us move on to another question. Thank you very much. Peter

:28:49.:28:55.

Pickard, please. Let us get into this other topic. Will Ed Miliband's

:28:56.:29:00.

proposals on rent help or hinder the rental market? The proposals made

:29:01.:29:06.

today by Ed Miliband to control rents and make rental agreements

:29:07.:29:09.

last for three-years to cap the increase in rents and all the rest

:29:10.:29:17.

of it. His aim being to cut the cost of living for people, nine million

:29:18.:29:20.

living in rental accommodation. Has he stolen a march, Tim Farron, with

:29:21.:29:26.

this on the coalition's policy? I don't think. Is it a good idea? Some

:29:27.:29:30.

of what he said today is a good idea. Some of it really isn't. He

:29:31.:29:35.

has shown he has identified the problem, Peter, but not understood

:29:36.:29:39.

it. The reason why private rents are high is because of a lack of supply.

:29:40.:29:44.

It's blindingly obvious. Amongst the things that, you know, the Labour

:29:45.:29:47.

Party should be embarrassed about with its 13 year in power they built

:29:48.:29:54.

fewer council houses than Margaret Thatcher. That took some doing. That

:29:55.:29:58.

is why rents are as high as they are. The answer is to build

:29:59.:30:02.

affordable homes. How do you do that? Identifying new fresh places.

:30:03.:30:06.

It is about regenerating the north of England in a way which will be

:30:07.:30:12.

making advantage of what is Britain's largest untapped resource,

:30:13.:30:16.

which is much of the north of this country, this part of the United

:30:17.:30:18.

country, this part of theUnited United Kingdom. In favour of a rent

:30:19.:30:24.

cap? No, I'm not. In theory a great idea, in practice you will crush

:30:25.:30:27.

supply. You will put people out of homes who would have been in homes

:30:28.:30:31.

otherwise. You reduce rent by increasing supply. You do that by

:30:32.:30:37.

allowing Housing Associations just want to be allowed to bory against

:30:38.:30:41.

the value of their stock. We need 300,000 houses a year. We will not

:30:42.:30:45.

do it by tinkering. Ed Miliband is wrong if he thinks the housing

:30:46.:30:48.

crisis is caused by too much regulation. It's caused by not

:30:49.:30:50.

enough building. OK. So it is the wrong problem that Ed

:30:51.:31:05.

Miliband is going for. I don't think so. We have to do both. We need to

:31:06.:31:10.

build houses. We need far more homes and we need to help the 9 million

:31:11.:31:13.

people in rented accommodation across the country. Tim can sound

:31:14.:31:19.

indignant, but the reality is that under this government we have had

:31:20.:31:25.

the lowest level of house-building. We build more than you did. I did

:31:26.:31:31.

not interrupt you. The lowest level of house-building since the 1920s,

:31:32.:31:34.

and that is the consequence of what this government have been doing.

:31:35.:31:38.

Yes, we need to build more homes but we also need to help people who

:31:39.:31:42.

cannot wait for homes to be built and are living in rented

:31:43.:31:45.

accommodation, often with children. If you go back a few decades,

:31:46.:31:48.

families with children would think they would be maybe in social

:31:49.:31:51.

housing, maybe in their own homes having bought them. Many people now

:31:52.:31:57.

are really struggling, if they don't have the bank of mum and dad to rely

:31:58.:32:00.

on, to be able to buy their own home and get on the mortgage ladder. They

:32:01.:32:04.

are in rented accommodation with their kids, never knowing whether

:32:05.:32:07.

the landlord might say, sorry, you have to move out, or, sorry, I am

:32:08.:32:12.

going to put the rent up, and they have to move away from their

:32:13.:32:17.

children's school, a neighbour who does the baby-sitting. That

:32:18.:32:19.

insecurity is really damaging for families. That's why I think you

:32:20.:32:24.

need longer term tenancies, three-year tenancies, and a ceiling

:32:25.:32:28.

on the rent increases that landlords can apply during that three-year

:32:29.:32:36.

period. All right. I think Yvette Cooper is being disingenuous. You

:32:37.:32:40.

can't turn on the volume of house-building on and off like a

:32:41.:32:44.

switch. It takes time. It was the great recession Labour brought in

:32:45.:32:48.

that brought the collapse in house-building and the number of

:32:49.:32:52.

houses being built, and that is starting to recover. What do you

:32:53.:32:57.

think of stopping rent increases? I am with Tim Farron. The issue is the

:32:58.:33:02.

supply of housing, not about how much. It seems the Labour policy is

:33:03.:33:07.

concerned about energy prices, and says, let's cap it, that's the

:33:08.:33:10.

solution, but does not address the underlying issue. Actually, whilst

:33:11.:33:15.

Ed Miliband was in power, he brought in these green taxes that raised the

:33:16.:33:22.

cost of energy. The man behind you. We need to build more houses, not

:33:23.:33:26.

come out with the gimmicks that Labour seems to all the time.

:33:27.:33:27.

APPLAUSE .

:33:28.:33:38.

We talk about the rental culture as if it is wrong and in places like

:33:39.:33:42.

France it is normal to rent for most of a person's life. I also accept

:33:43.:33:47.

there is a need for accommodation that is affordable. However, one of

:33:48.:33:51.

the things we missing is that the developers are wanting to do their

:33:52.:33:55.

new builds, and these are not affordable houses but expensive

:33:56.:33:59.

houses, on land that was formerly green belt. That is going to be

:34:00.:34:04.

destroyed for ever. There are places in many of the city centres, old

:34:05.:34:09.

Brownfield sites, that are ready to be redeveloped to make affordable

:34:10.:34:12.

homes for people who can live near where they work, and that will not

:34:13.:34:18.

happen in the outer suburbs. All it will do is make developers more

:34:19.:34:22.

wealthy and it will destroy our heritage, our children's and

:34:23.:34:25.

grandchildren's heritage, for ever. APPLAUSE

:34:26.:34:32.

There is a difference of opinion between Simon Jenkins for The

:34:33.:34:40.

National Trust, wearing his National Trust at, and the Conservative Party

:34:41.:34:44.

on the planning of this. Conor Burns, you answer first. Lets

:34:45.:34:51.

answer the question about the proposal by Ed Miliband. I often

:34:52.:34:55.

worry that what can appeared to be very good politics for a party can

:34:56.:34:59.

be very bad policy for the country. I fear that when a politician comes

:35:00.:35:03.

forward with a very simplistic answer to what is a very compensated

:35:04.:35:07.

problem, it is probably the wrong answer. Remember back to the Labour

:35:08.:35:13.

Party Conference when Ed Miliband was in Brighton and he appeared on

:35:14.:35:16.

the soapbox in the town centre and was asked, are you going to bring

:35:17.:35:20.

back socialism. His reply to that was, that is what I'm doing, sir. We

:35:21.:35:26.

are seeing a trend in some of these rather populist announcements. The

:35:27.:35:30.

gentleman referred a moment ago to the energy price freeze. No freeze

:35:31.:35:35.

before the freeze, no freeze guaranteed after, pure populism. We

:35:36.:35:40.

saw the suggestion he might nationalise land, take it away from

:35:41.:35:45.

private developers. I think this one is a bad idea, too. This is a

:35:46.:35:49.

compensated problem. We have to catch up from the fact that the last

:35:50.:35:52.

Labour government built fewer houses than any government since the 1920s.

:35:53.:35:58.

And we are trying to do that. We have over ?19.5 billion of public

:35:59.:36:03.

and private money going into housing. The number of first-time

:36:04.:36:08.

buyers is that a five year by and construction is at the highest level

:36:09.:36:12.

since 2007. But the point the gentleman made, you cannot simply

:36:13.:36:16.

turn on the tap and say, I want to develop 100,000 houses next year.

:36:17.:36:21.

But you turned it off. The government turn off the tap. I did

:36:22.:36:32.

not interrupt you. David is going to get very bored! When the

:36:33.:36:38.

Conservative Party left office, net immigration was 48,000 people into

:36:39.:36:41.

the country. At the end of the Labour government, it was 233,000.

:36:42.:36:46.

If you are going to welcome a number of new people into your country, you

:36:47.:36:49.

have to make sure you have a houses and infrastructure and all the

:36:50.:36:52.

things that people need when they come to live in the UK. So you're

:36:53.:36:57.

planning Minister is right to want to build more on greenfield sites to

:36:58.:37:00.

get the thing moving. That is the Tory policy on this. If he were

:37:01.:37:08.

here, you could ask him. He ain't, so I'm asking you. Some of the stuff

:37:09.:37:12.

we are encouraging with localism and encouraging councils take the lead,

:37:13.:37:16.

in Bournemouth I am seeing town centre that elements mixing retail

:37:17.:37:20.

and residential and getting the town centre moving. That is the sort of

:37:21.:37:27.

thing I want. Simon Jenkins. The idea that you increase rented

:37:28.:37:31.

accommodation by capping the rent is absurd. That is illiterate

:37:32.:37:42.

economics. I have to say I am mildly in favour of some safeguards for

:37:43.:37:45.

tenants, but the idea that you solve the problem by capping rent is like

:37:46.:37:54.

Castro, it is absurd. What do you mean by that? He fixed all of the

:37:55.:37:58.

rent in Havana and no house has been restored for about 30 years. If you

:37:59.:38:02.

want to wreck the housing market, cap the price. Coming back to the

:38:03.:38:07.

question on housing, you will never build your way out with house price

:38:08.:38:13.

rises by simply allowing the fields to let rip. It is stupid. It

:38:14.:38:17.

destroys what we value about the countryside, it is not necessary, it

:38:18.:38:21.

is caving in to a particular powerful lobby, the house-building

:38:22.:38:25.

lobby. They all want the same thing, rural sites for 300 volume units of

:38:26.:38:31.

housing. It is the most damaging thing to the countryside we have

:38:32.:38:34.

seen since the last war. It mustn't happen. But the resource, the real

:38:35.:38:42.

resource far housing in this country is in cities in underused property.

:38:43.:38:47.

There is a vast store of empty rooms. We have more empty rooms in

:38:48.:38:52.

Britain than any country in Europe. We are so hysterical about

:38:53.:38:54.

house-building because the lobby wants us to do that. Every week you

:38:55.:39:00.

will see a story about a chronic shortage of house-building. It is

:39:01.:39:02.

house Restoration we should be concentrating on. That is the green

:39:03.:39:07.

thing to do. Use existing city sites which are empty, where people now

:39:08.:39:11.

live, people want to work, people want to move from under the property

:39:12.:39:17.

into one that fits their needs. Make the urban housing market fluid. That

:39:18.:39:20.

is the way to solve the housing crisis.

:39:21.:39:27.

APPLAUSE Try and find some younger people in

:39:28.:39:30.

the audience who may be stuck in them entered accommodation, may

:39:31.:39:34.

choose to live in them to the accommodation.

:39:35.:39:35.

Oh, you put your hands down immediately. I think the problem is

:39:36.:39:43.

nothing to do with supply, but the type of housing. In Leeds, we have

:39:44.:39:47.

around 27,000 people on the council waiting list. We need more council

:39:48.:39:52.

houses. Both the Conservatives and Lib Dems have been selling off the

:39:53.:40:03.

housing, some of the right to buy schemes. We need a maths building

:40:04.:40:07.

programme of council housing, to take public sector housing back

:40:08.:40:11.

under public control. That is how we can control the rent.

:40:12.:40:21.

I want to make a point to the Conservative MP. When you try to

:40:22.:40:24.

pass the blame for current things to the Labour Party about immigration,

:40:25.:40:31.

it just makes me want to turn off. But to the gentleman that asked

:40:32.:40:36.

about housing, surely Ed Miliband should be concentrating on helping

:40:37.:40:39.

people get a mortgage and buy a house, rather than focusing on the

:40:40.:40:46.

rental market. You, in the front. Everyone keeps mentioning turning

:40:47.:40:50.

off the tap, turning it on for building houses and it can't be

:40:51.:40:53.

done. That is why we need more security measures for people in

:40:54.:40:58.

rented accommodation at the moment. Suzanne Evans. I don't want my

:40:59.:41:02.

countryside to be concreted over. APPLAUSE

:41:03.:41:08.

. At the moment we need to build one

:41:09.:41:13.

house every seven minutes to keep up with supply. Like it or not,

:41:14.:41:18.

migration is a factor in that. Net migration is still 212,000 each

:41:19.:41:25.

year, despite the fact that David Cameron promised to get it down to

:41:26.:41:29.

tens of thousands. I don't think he's going to be able to fulfil his

:41:30.:41:33.

manifesto promise by 2015 unless he shuts down the borders but everyone

:41:34.:41:37.

outside the EU, and I certainly don't want to see that happen. --

:41:38.:41:43.

shuts down the borders for everyone outside the EU. Homelessness is now

:41:44.:41:47.

caused in the main by the ending of private tenancies. But this

:41:48.:41:52.

reactionary policy brought in by Ed Miliband today, which has already

:41:53.:41:55.

been described by experts as possibly one of the most stupid

:41:56.:41:59.

policies ever invented, it really is not the answer. Before we leave

:42:00.:42:05.

this, Yvette Cooper, is this one of the most stupid policies ever

:42:06.:42:10.

invented, and Simon Jenkins says this was Castro -like, and would

:42:11.:42:14.

bring housing to disrepair if it was put through. It would mean nothing

:42:15.:42:17.

was built and repaired and the place would become like Cuba. The problem

:42:18.:42:23.

is that nobody on the panel is suggesting answers for people in the

:42:24.:42:26.

entered accommodation who find themselves in really insecure

:42:27.:42:31.

tenancies, and find that the landlord can suddenly increased

:42:32.:42:33.

their rent way above the local market, way above inflation. The

:42:34.:42:40.

normal tenancy, since Margaret Thatcher introduced it in the 1980s,

:42:41.:42:45.

the tenancy that most people can get is a six month tenancy. After that,

:42:46.:42:50.

you could be asked to move by your landlord with very short notice.

:42:51.:42:54.

What we are saying is the normal tenancy people should get is a

:42:55.:42:58.

three-year tenancy, to give people some security. The rent would still

:42:59.:43:02.

be negotiated, just as normal. The government would not set the rent,

:43:03.:43:07.

the council would not, it would be the normal market negotiation about

:43:08.:43:11.

what the rent would be. But in those three years, you would have some

:43:12.:43:14.

limits on the increases in the rent landlord could introduce, so that

:43:15.:43:18.

you could not just suddenly yourself being exploited, or unable to stay

:43:19.:43:23.

in the area where your kids are going to school. I think that is

:43:24.:43:27.

sensible intervention in the housing market because it is a way of

:43:28.:43:30.

helping people with the cost-of-living crisis that is really

:43:31.:43:34.

squeezing people. It is all very well to say it is like Castro, but

:43:35.:43:38.

if people are not providing answers, I think they are letting people

:43:39.:43:43.

down. Simon Jenkins, you are not providing answers. The answer is to

:43:44.:43:49.

free up the urban housing market, make it tax deductible to let out

:43:50.:43:53.

your spare room. Spare rooms are the problem, not housing in the

:43:54.:43:58.

countryside. Millions of spare rooms which ought to be liberated into the

:43:59.:44:03.

market and then rent will come down. One more point from the man in the

:44:04.:44:08.

second row from the back. It is comments like this that stop young

:44:09.:44:11.

people being interested in politics. It is an anomaly to say that this is

:44:12.:44:16.

going to help people in any kind of way. Surely this is the male of --

:44:17.:44:21.

the nail in the coffin, the cost-of-living crisis, this piece of

:44:22.:44:26.

spin which Labour has drawn out which has failed. Why do you think

:44:27.:44:31.

it won't work? Because the economy is on the up. Everything that has

:44:32.:44:35.

been said over the last three years regarding the economy is untrue.

:44:36.:44:40.

People are getting wealthier. It is spin like the cost-of-living crisis

:44:41.:44:44.

which is spiralling out of control. I think a lot of people are not

:44:45.:44:52.

feeling it. This is a funny question. Ron Fallows. Quickly. Are

:44:53.:45:01.

the panel breathing a I sigh of of relief at the news that Jeremy

:45:02.:45:07.

Paxman is to leave Newsnight? The politicians on the panel, I assume?

:45:08.:45:12.

I have no dog in this fight, myself. I don't think Simon Jenkins does.

:45:13.:45:17.

I'm gutted. I have been on Newsnight a couple of times. I've never been

:45:18.:45:22.

interviewed by Paxman. I better hurry up. I haves missed out. His

:45:23.:45:26.

strengths are in his expression on his face when people are answering

:45:27.:45:30.

the questions, as much as it is the questions themselves. Yeah. I think

:45:31.:45:33.

everybody will miss Jeremy Paxman. I think he is an institution. I have

:45:34.:45:43.

been too busy about worrying to play alongside a legendary Dimbleby. Good

:45:44.:45:48.

answer. Very flattering and quite right. David there is a vacancy,

:45:49.:45:55.

come on. On Newsnighting? You have to stay up all night. He should make

:45:56.:46:02.

way for an older man. I'm disappointed. Who can forget the

:46:03.:46:05.

time he was questioning Michael Howard he asked him the same

:46:06.:46:09.

question 12 times and Michael Howard still didn't answer. Fantastic. We

:46:10.:46:14.

immediate people like that to give us... I watched that. It was on

:46:15.:46:19.

today. It wasn't the same question. It was cleverer than that. The same

:46:20.:46:22.

question put slightly differently a lot of the time. It wasn't sitting

:46:23.:46:26.

there muttering the same old thing. Very good interview. In the middle

:46:27.:46:30.

of he said, "I don't want to be rude, but I have to ask this again.

:46:31.:46:37.

" "I'm not trying to be funny or anything... Miss Miss He is less

:46:38.:46:41.

polite now. I have been on Newsnight. Great to be there. I was

:46:42.:46:48.

able to tweet the mortal line "I survived Paxman." We can go back to

:46:49.:46:52.

the state of the economy in general. We can take a question, important

:46:53.:46:57.

stuff. Libby Tinworth, please. Do the panel think steps should be

:46:58.:47:01.

taken to protect workers on zero-hours and temporary contracts?

:47:02.:47:05.

Does the panel think, say it again... Do the panel think steps

:47:06.:47:10.

should be taken to protect workers on zero-hours and temporary

:47:11.:47:15.

contracts? Which is, as we know, a lot of it about at the moment. What

:47:16.:47:20.

is your view, Libby? I think the Government should put something in

:47:21.:47:23.

place to support businesses so that we can, the workforce can have peace

:47:24.:47:29.

of mind. Things like rent much you don't know where you will be from

:47:30.:47:33.

week-to-week. If you can afford to live. Peace of mind for the

:47:34.:47:36.

workforce and make people want to get out there and enjoy working.

:47:37.:47:41.

What would you do, abolish the zero-hours contracts? Yeah. I think

:47:42.:47:45.

it definitely needs looking at. It's very hard to live not knowing where

:47:46.:47:50.

you are going to be and how much money you will bring into the family

:47:51.:47:54.

home. It's something that needs to be minimised, taken back. How long

:47:55.:48:01.

have you been on a temporary contract, zero-hours contract? Since

:48:02.:48:04.

August last year. Right, Conor Burns? Look, I think probably

:48:05.:48:08.

anybody on the panel who is a member of parliament will tell you that

:48:09.:48:13.

possibly the most distressing case that comes to you is someone who

:48:14.:48:19.

wants to work, and can't find the dignity of work. I have had a number

:48:20.:48:24.

of those since I was elected in 2010. Let us be clear, for some

:48:25.:48:30.

people, particularly those unemployed for some time, sdeer

:48:31.:48:35.

ehours contracts can better and can be a route back into full-time

:48:36.:48:41.

employment -- secure owe hours. Students, a lot of them welcome the

:48:42.:48:46.

flexibility that gives them to do part-time work. Should the

:48:47.:48:48.

Government do something about it? The answer is, this Government is

:48:49.:48:52.

doing something about it. This Government launched a consultation,

:48:53.:48:55.

the Department for Business, they have had over 30,000 responses. We

:48:56.:49:00.

have been talking to people on zero-hours contracts, talking to

:49:01.:49:02.

businesses. We have been talking to trade unions. That consultation

:49:03.:49:07.

closed on 14th March, the Government will come forward with a response

:49:08.:49:12.

soon. Now, that is something. We are, unlike the previous government,

:49:13.:49:16.

looking at it. We recognise there is a problem. We need to tackle those

:49:17.:49:20.

for whom zero-hours contracts are not the right thing. Can you define

:49:21.:49:24.

what the problem is. How can you have a contract if it doesn't say

:49:25.:49:29.

anything about how long you work? How can you be under a contract if

:49:30.:49:33.

they are not under obligation to offer you work. It's like when you

:49:34.:49:36.

had in ports. People would turn up in the morning to see if there was

:49:37.:49:41.

work available for that day. For a lot of people that is an

:49:42.:49:44.

unsustainable way to organise their lives. It's not unsustainable. It's

:49:45.:49:50.

completely immoral. When we encourage people to come off

:49:51.:49:53.

benefited and get into work we need to put the incentives in place to do

:49:54.:49:57.

that. When they cannot guarantee their income under those contracts,

:49:58.:50:00.

for whom these are not suitable, there are people, students and

:50:01.:50:03.

others, for whom they are suitable. The Government is doing something.

:50:04.:50:08.

The previous government didn't do. They grew under the last Labour

:50:09.:50:13.

government. We can wait and see what the consultation says. What are the

:50:14.:50:17.

workers saying they will will do be available any time. When ordered to

:50:18.:50:20.

come they will come. Otherwise they won't get work at all, that is the

:50:21.:50:26.

deal, is it? Yeah. They won't get travel expenses. Waiting hours

:50:27.:50:30.

between shifts. It's unacceptable to treat people like this. Yes, there

:50:31.:50:34.

might be the few tiny minority for who it works. Libby summed up the

:50:35.:50:39.

situation very well. It really does have to change. What has been

:50:40.:50:44.

forgotten in this debate. We can directly chart the increase, massive

:50:45.:50:49.

increase, in the use of zero-hour contracts from the time that the EU

:50:50.:50:53.

agency workers regulations were introduced into this country. That

:50:54.:50:59.

meant that temporary employees, after 12 weeks, had to be on exactly

:51:00.:51:05.

the same term and conditions as a full-time employees. Big businesses

:51:06.:51:10.

didn't like this. Zero-hours contracts was a way of getting

:51:11.:51:13.

around that particular piece of EU legislation. That's why they have

:51:14.:51:17.

rocketed. Once again, we have the EU to blame for this one.

:51:18.:51:22.

APPLAUSE Jennings Simon Jenkins. This is now

:51:23.:51:38.

huge. It's not a small matter. As with the rent, capping rent control.

:51:39.:51:43.

You legislate into the free market at your your peril. There are ways

:51:44.:51:51.

to ease the pain of zero-hour contracts. There have to be minimum

:51:52.:51:55.

standards expected of people. Travel expenses, The National Trust have a

:51:56.:51:59.

lot of these. National Trust have a lot of zero-hour contracts?

:52:00.:52:02.

Everybody does in this business. Everybody does. You are talking as

:52:03.:52:07.

if it were - where do you all work? People working in service industries

:52:08.:52:10.

are on these sort of contracts. Can you make them as fair and painless

:52:11.:52:14.

as they can be? Many people don't want to work full-time. Many people

:52:15.:52:19.

are happy to be called in when the sun shines. You want two or three

:52:20.:52:26.

times your staff when the sun is shining when it rains. You have to

:52:27.:52:33.

be sensible about this. I think it ease fair for the Government to

:52:34.:52:37.

regulate fairness and humanity in employment. That is fine. The idea

:52:38.:52:41.

you can get away from a massive source of employment for young

:52:42.:52:44.

people is ridiculous and counter productive.

:52:45.:52:47.

APPLAUSE The woman here. Yes. I don't think

:52:48.:52:52.

it's as zero-hour contracts that are the problem. They provide huge

:52:53.:52:59.

flexibility to the economy. It's the employers are exploiting them and

:53:00.:53:04.

making the workers lives hell. Are you on one yourself? I'm not on one.

:53:05.:53:11.

I know people who are on one. You are on one? Yeah. What is your view?

:53:12.:53:17.

They should be kept, certainly. It was the break into the industry, as

:53:18.:53:23.

you mentioned. The way into a job. That right. I got a contracted place

:53:24.:53:29.

from that. I mean, obviously, as you mentioned, it might have been my own

:53:30.:53:33.

case, not sure on the figures. I'm not into that. It worked for me.

:53:34.:53:39.

Yvette Cooper? Why is it so often the only route into a job? Why is it

:53:40.:53:45.

that so many organisations, as Simon refers to, are seeing zero-hours

:53:46.:53:51.

contracts as normal? They should not be normal. There should be areas

:53:52.:53:55.

where there are seasonal fluctuations there may be areas

:53:56.:53:59.

where people have retired who want to work on flexible contracts. For

:54:00.:54:04.

them to expand so much, so substantially in such a short period

:54:05.:54:08.

of time, I think is a very serious problem about the way in which the

:54:09.:54:13.

labour market is working. There is a series of problems, there is a big

:54:14.:54:16.

problem for people who are told they have to be available. Telling

:54:17.:54:20.

somebody they have to be available, but not guaranteeing them work is

:54:21.:54:25.

completely wrong and completely exsplotive. People can't plan

:54:26.:54:29.

holidays or anything. They can't get things like Working Tax Credit. They

:54:30.:54:31.

don't know how much they will be earning in a particular week. There

:54:32.:54:37.

is also a problem where people are kept on zero-hours contracts when

:54:38.:54:40.

they are working regular hours. They are working week after week after

:54:41.:54:45.

week after month after month on regular hours contracts, and not

:54:46.:54:50.

given the employment support that they should be in those regular

:54:51.:54:54.

hours. I think that is not fair on people too. That also ought to be

:54:55.:54:58.

addressed. At the moment, there is no suggestion that the Government

:54:59.:55:00.

seems to be addressing that issue, about what happens to people on

:55:01.:55:04.

long-term regular hours. They should do that as well. How do you know

:55:05.:55:09.

until we published our review. The woman there in the fourth row. I run

:55:10.:55:16.

a business that provides services for the care sector. The care sector

:55:17.:55:22.

is almost exclusively zero-hour contracts. I think sometimes it's

:55:23.:55:26.

very easy to hit employers over the head with a hammer about them. The

:55:27.:55:34.

reason zero-hours contracts came out because local authorities who

:55:35.:55:37.

contracted out their services for care refused to pay for block

:55:38.:55:44.

contracts. So now they say you can employ a workforce. You don't know

:55:45.:55:47.

how many people you need. You don't know when you need them. Local

:55:48.:55:54.

authorities pay for services by the minute.ful it's very - they won't

:55:55.:55:58.

pay for time. Local authorities will not pay employers to pay their staff

:55:59.:56:03.

for travel time. They won't make allowances for training. They won't

:56:04.:56:07.

pay anything other than contact time. They have engineered the need

:56:08.:56:13.

for zero-hour contracts. Could the law be changed so they can't do

:56:14.:56:17.

this, in your view? You can't interfere with what employers do. I

:56:18.:56:22.

agree with you there. What they should, it is all about funding.

:56:23.:56:26.

Particularly in essential services like care, it's about getting the

:56:27.:56:29.

funding right so that we can provide the proper services in jobs for

:56:30.:56:33.

people who provide those services. OK. Tim Farron. A whole different

:56:34.:56:39.

question there really. You are working in a profession that is

:56:40.:56:43.

dealing with and providing services for the most vulnerable people in

:56:44.:56:47.

this country. Millions of us, there will be millions more of us as the

:56:48.:56:50.

years go on, yet it needs to be - we have seen with the abuses that have

:56:51.:56:55.

been spoken about. Which of course are entirely a minority of cases. We

:56:56.:56:59.

need our care sector to be as funded as esteemed as much as people who

:57:00.:57:04.

work in the NHS, for example. On the issue of zero-hours contracts. You

:57:05.:57:08.

make the point, Simon makes the point, when the Government legislate

:57:09.:57:12.

and regulate, and it should, we need to be very careful we don't throw

:57:13.:57:16.

the babies out with the bath water. There is a range of things to get

:57:17.:57:20.

right. People on sdeer ehour contracts, not because it is

:57:21.:57:24.

convenient for them, it's convenient for the employer. It exploits the

:57:25.:57:28.

employee. You do not have zero rent or bills. To have zero-hours and not

:57:29.:57:33.

know when you won't have income that week when you might be eligible for

:57:34.:57:38.

benefits one week and not the next. And all the heartache that builds

:57:39.:57:42.

in. That is something we must restrict.

:57:43.:57:45.

APPLAUSE Got to stop, I'm afraid. Our hour is

:57:46.:57:51.

up. Next week we will be in Southampton. Panel, Shirley

:57:52.:57:55.

Williams, from the Liberal Democrats. Grant Shapps, Chuka

:57:56.:58:04.

Umunna Labour's Business Secretary and, guess who, Nigel Farage, leader

:58:05.:58:08.

of UKIP. The week after that we will be in Coventry. Come to Southampton

:58:09.:58:13.

and Coventry, apply the usual way. The website address is there The

:58:14.:58:19.

telephone number: If you are listening to this on 5 Live, it goes

:58:20.:58:26.

on with Question Time Extra Time, it doesn't go on in Leeds, that ends

:58:27.:58:30.

this edition of the programme with my thanks to the panel and all of

:58:31.:58:35.

you who came to take part. Until next Thursday, from Question Time,

:58:36.:58:41.

good night. APPLAUSE

:58:42.:58:49.

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Leeds, with Labour's shadow home secretary Yvette Cooper, president of the Liberal Democrats Tim Farron, Conservative MP Conor Burns, UKIP's communities spokesman Suzanne Evans and Simon Jenkins, columnist for the Guardian and Evening Standard.


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