05/06/2014 Question Time


05/06/2014

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Welcome to you at home, to our audience here

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and to our panel - who, as ever, don?t know the questions.

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They are Conservative Secretary of State for Wales David Jones,

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Labour?s Shadow Health Minister, Liz Kendall,

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The Spectator and Daily Telegraph columnist Isabel Hardman,

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star of the BBC?s documentary The Call Centre.

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is from Helen Garner, please. Given that we have a national health

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service, why are patients in Wales being subjected to a second-class

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service compared to those in England? Is that true, David Jones?

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It is not as good as it is in England. This is one of the major

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complaint is that all Welsh politicians get. That they are

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paying the same rate of income tax, they are paying the

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politicians get. That they are paying the same rate of income same

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rate of national insurance contributions as everybody else, and

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yet, if they want to go for a hip replacement operation, to the

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nearest hospital in England, they have a waiting time of 26 weeks. The

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English patient in the bed next door has only been waiting for 18 weeks.

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There is really no use for it. Is there an explanation? Yes, that the

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Labour Party runs the National health service in Wales.

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The NHS in Wales is supported at a better rate than the NHS in England

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because of the Barnett formula. Nevertheless, we are seeing an

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increasing decline in the Health Service in Wales. One of the most

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important messages will be trying to deliver over the next 12 months is

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if you want to see what the Labour Party would do to the Health Service

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in England, just look at what is happening in Wales. I don't think

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you would want that. Liz Kendall? Helen, I think there are examples

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where people wait too long and where people have poor standard of care.

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That happened in Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. I

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think any examples of poor care, where health suffers, has got to be

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rigourously exposed, investigated and action taken. Is it a

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second-class service compared with England? I don't believe that. There

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will be statistics flying around but, for example, cancer survival

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rates, in Wales they have improved faster than any other part of the

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country. Your wait times for cancer treatment, you have more people

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being seen within two months. In fact, this year, for the first time,

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this week, for the first time in England, the English NHS missed a

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cancer target. What I think is a problem is when this issue becomes a

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political football. The Health Service is so important to us all,

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all of our families. It was important to my grandma and grandpa,

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they used the Health Service here. All health services need to improve.

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What I'm worried about is the approach the Tories are taking by

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trying to attack the Health Service in Wales without having a balanced

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approach, because it is the English NHS that is going backwards. We have

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have the worst A in aid decade in England. We have a delayed

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discharges from hospital for very elderly people going up in England,

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when they are coming down in Wales. So Wales is better than England? You

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might not believe me on a thing because I am a politician, but an

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independent organisation did the first-ever study into the four

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nations, what was happening in the Health Service, they said in on of

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them were massively ahead or behind. Sir Bruce Keogh, England's medical

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director, writing to his Welsh counterpart, saying he is worried

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about persistently high death rates, which warrant investigating in six

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Welsh hospitals. Right or wrong to say that? Those hospitals are

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rightly being looked into. Actually the Welsh Gutmann was the crew had

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refused the inquiry. If they were concerned, they would listen to Sir

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Bruce Keogh and instigated inquiry here. Do you think it is right for a

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British prime is to come and say the border is the line between life and

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death? I think he is highlighting the fact that the NHS in Wales is

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not... Waiting times... Of course, spending is high in Wales, but we

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have a higher demand. If you look at what the Labour government has done

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over the last few years, they have prioritised spending on important

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things like education and the economy. But spending on health has

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not been prioritised. That is one of the reasons why we are where we are

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today. One thing that disappointed me is that a Labour MP offered to

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give evidence to the assembly committee looking into the Health

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Service and they refused to listen. I can't understand why politicians

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would refuse to listen to evidence, especially from someone from their

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own party. I thought that was a disgrace.

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I appreciate this is maybe something that affected your family in the

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past. It is something that is affecting my

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family right now. When you are the director of the National Ambulance

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Service, would you think it was acceptable that, consistently,

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ambulance waiting times and hand over times are not being met? In

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some cases, people are waiting several hours in ambulances because

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there are not the resources in hospitals because there is not the

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spending in Welsh hospitals. Do you think that is acceptable? Indirect

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answer to that, I don't think it is acceptable that people are stuck in

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ambulances outside hospitals. I actually have the same problem,

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often with the East Midlands and billing service. I think any of

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those issues must be tackled head-on. -- Ambulance Service. We

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should not accept poor standards of care anywhere in the NHS in this

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country. I will speak from personal experience. The Welsh NHS is

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appalling. My son waited seven hours in A in

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Morriston with a broken arm. No care whatsoever. My mother and father

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have recently been in Morriston Hospital. My mother with a hip

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operation, she caught an infection. She wanted a nurse to lift her up,

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no, I haven't been trained. It's pathetic. I think we must

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differentiate between the people that work in the NHS, dedicated

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people who give the care that people need and work very long hours, and

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the people that run it and decide the political direction that it's

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going to be taking. We have to be clear we are not attacking NHS staff

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and the people that are delivering a fine service, in many cases.

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When my father was in hospital, he was nearest by foreign nurses that I

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could not conversed with. If we want jobs in Wales, and we need jobs in

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Wales, why can we not train proper Welsh people to nurse? Why do nurses

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have to go to university... The man here, in blue. Sunni the NHS in

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Wales is appalling, I completely agree. I have been at the end of

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what people would describe as being appalling. Ambulances were not

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available when I broke my leg. They sent a paramedic car and then the

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Welsh air ambulance, which costs money for them and then, when I get

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into the air, they realise they cannot go to the hospital because

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there are three hour waiting times being stuck outside in ambulances.

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You were saying about targets not being met for the first year. The

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Welsh NHS has being met for the first year. The

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Welsh NHS not met targets since 2009.

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You, madam? I don't think that we can generalise about the whole of

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the NHS. The NHS covers from accident and emergency until

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end-stage illness. Personally, I am retired from the NHS, five years

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ago. I have had to call on the services of the NHS during those

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five years. Two of them were, as, you would say, emergency. One was

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for cancer treatment, where I could not hold my treatment. I was treated

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within the time scales, professionally, etc. My second

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engagement was with an injury in my eye. I am still been treated for

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that, I could not fault it. Where there are pressures in the NHS are

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things like trauma and orthopaedic, hip replacement, knee replacement.

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Unfortunately, I have waited, I was put on the waiting list for a total

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knee replacement on the 31st of May last year. I now have a date for

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surgery, I go in on the 29th of this month and the 30th. You were in the

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NHS? I was. What do you make of what the Prime Minister said about

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between Wales and England, life and death? Is the NHS in England so much

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better? I would not say so. With the big issues they have had in England,

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with some of the horrors that have happened in England, I think we have

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a good health service in Wales. The point that you make about hip and

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knee replacements is absolutely bang on. Elective surgery is the biggest

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problem. The waiting time in Wales is 189 days, in England, about 86

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days. That is not right. If you are paying your national insurance

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contributions, your taxes, you are entitled to a conference or service,

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wherever you live. I do feel for Liz. She's having to

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defend decisions made by colleagues across the border, when she is an

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English Labour MP. It is very difficult when you have a party that

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may be taking a different direction to yours. That said, I can

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understand why the Tories are going after Labour on this. Next year's

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general election will be about the NHS. The Tories desperately want to

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steal the crown of the party of the NHS from Labour, after Mid-Staffs,

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after what is happening in Wales. But I don't think Labour's response

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should be as offensive as it is. Our institutions always improve when

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they are under Scuderia. The Royal family have a dreadful time in the

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1990s, came out on top after scrutiny. The NHS will come out on

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top after scrutiny. The areas that don't do well are often the areas

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that don't have scrutiny. Geriatric care in England is terrible because

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people do not scrutinise it. It is only that spotlight that will

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improve services. I agree, I don't like the NHS being used as a

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political football. You can't really compare Wales with England. It is a

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much poorer country. Look at the demographics, we have a lot more

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elderly people, high rates of diabetes, depression. We live in a

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post-industrial society. Going back to what this gentleman said, it is

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not just about the ambulances getting there. We need decent rail

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links and roads. Where I am from, I am no defender of Welsh Labour, but

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they are going to centralise everything to the hospital, so

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people from Aberystwyth, Haverfordwest, they have to travel

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such a long way. There is not a rail link. What are we doing about that?

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I am not convinced of the premise in my neighbour's question, that the

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Health Service in Wales is in anyway second-class. I have had the

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misfortune to make use of the NHS, in various parts of North Wales

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recently, and I can say that, on balance, the service is good. There

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is anecdotal evidence, people tell tales of how long they have waited,

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but the same sort of tales IKEA in England as well. I really do not --

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high here in England as well. I am really not convinced. I went to the

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trouble of looking at the Nuffield report, mentioned by a panel

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member, and there is no second-class service in Wales.

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I agree with what the panel said, a lot of people working in the service

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on the ground, nurses and doctors, they can in a difficult situation.

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My father had a heart attack and it took 45 minutes for an ambulance to

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get to him. I think that is a total disgrace. In terms of cardiac care,

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this week there has been information about hospitals in South Wales,

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where people are literally dying on waiting lists before they can get I

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pass surgery. -- bypass surgery. For you it is a second class service. If

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you have you it is a second class service. If

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you a kidney problem you have to go to Bristol. Cardiac patients have to

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go to Green Green from here. You have to travel to the care. We must

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leave it there. We've had quarter of an hour on that topic.

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You can join via text or Twitter. Last week when Joey Barton was on we

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had the biggest traffic ever. 150,000 Tweets during the programme.

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We, boy, did we trend! We move on to another question. From

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Stephen Clear, please. This week the European Commission

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criticised Britain's council taxes. Is this thaefd the EU is too big,

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too bossy and too interfering? Nev Wilshire?

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Yes. I think the vote was so strongly in

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favour of UKIP, for the Prime Minister to stand up and say, we

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need to put a strong voice into Europe, suggesting we do things in a

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different way, I think the vote has got to be in or out.

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It's as simple as that. You are not going to change Europe. Are we in or

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out? I believe - I can remember when Tony Blair and John Major were vying

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for the election and the Referendum Party that were gathering a lot of

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votes were put to bed because they both agreed that whoever got in was

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going to have a referendum. What was that? 18 years ago? Where is it?

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Let's have a referendum! Get on with it!

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APPLAUSE Do you think it is right for the

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European Commission to say we ought to reform taxation of land and

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property and other advice, or is that being bossy? I don't think they

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should. What Europe needs to be focussing on is creating jobs and

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growth. That's what people want. And one of

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the things I found frustrating this week and I have probably a different

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view, I am pro-Europe. It is really important for jobs in Wales and

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across the country n my constituency a lot of jobs rest on trade with

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Europe. I think all of the discussion we've heard this week is

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about who will get the commission presidency. I don't think they

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should be talking about jobs for the boys. They should be talking about

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jobs for people in this country. Unless we get that growth in Europe,

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it will not work for us and not work for people across that continent.

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So, I don't think they should be telling us anything about council

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tax. They should focus on what matters to people, which is getting

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good jobs, growing the economy, so we can properly compete in the

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world. APPLAUSE

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So when the Prime Minister says Brussels has got too big, too bossy,

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too interfering, for once you agree? Europe needs to change. I think it

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is unambitious to say that we cannot, together, with other

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countries, reform Europe. It is not just about our relationship with

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Europe. Europe... APPLAUSE

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Given the fact there's a thread of negativity about the EU I am not

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sure this is the appropriate time for the EU to be introducing things

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which frankly may not matter. If you put me in a ballot-box right now and

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I had to vote whether we stayed in or out, I would be honest with you,

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I do not know what to vote. I regard myself as being fairly well

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informed. I would not know of any independent body. If somebody from

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UKIP suggested I listen to what they say. I am not aware at the moment of

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any independent body that could give me information from that side,

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information from the other side and information from the mid-. So, I

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would not -- from the middle. I so I would not know what to vote, yes or

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no! This woman here. My understanding is

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the reason the EU wanted to interfere was because our council

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tax has not been, levels have not been revisited since 1991 and the

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value of property has changed dramatically since then. And we are

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paying disproportionately more council tax or lower value

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properties than on higher value properties. Frankly I think that is

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a good reason for having some kind of...

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That is an extremely good point. If we are talking about Governments

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interfering in the way council tax is run. People in this room will

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know that people at home in England will know that council tax in Wales

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was changed a few years ago. We have new bands in Wales. Everybody here

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was affected by it, I think. When the Government saw the effect on

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Wales, they decided not to do it in England. If we are talking about

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interfering in council tax, it has happened here already.

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APPLAUSE Yes, Sir.

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The man in the green shirt. Yes. I am 82 years and I come to this at a

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different angle after recent elections. I was delighted this

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country thrashed the far right, the British National Front. What did

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concern me and does concern me is the rise of the far right in Europe

:20:49.:20:52.

as a whole, with increased anti-Semitism there, we had the

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recent massacre in Belgium. I am concerned that we are getting an

:21:00.:21:09.

increased... It is a good reason for me why I would vote out. This

:21:10.:21:14.

country has shown, we don't want to know anything about Nazis and far

:21:15.:21:18.

right. We are receptive to be friendly to everybody. You think

:21:19.:21:22.

that rather than reform of the EU itself, which would change people's

:21:23.:21:25.

view? I don't think it would. I think the far right has got too big

:21:26.:21:32.

a hold now. Think of Le Pen and how she walked through France. I am

:21:33.:21:35.

concerned because I am young enough to know what happened in the last

:21:36.:21:39.

war. I don't want a repeat of that. We don't give up against the far

:21:40.:21:43.

right. That is the point. We work together.

:21:44.:21:48.

I think the rise of the far right makes this report which could have

:21:49.:21:53.

been comal in its timing after the results serious. It shows the

:21:54.:21:57.

European elite don't want to listen to the electorate. Only a few days

:21:58.:22:01.

after the National Front had done so well in France, across Europe,

:22:02.:22:06.

parties which were showing voters' discontent with the EU. They

:22:07.:22:10.

published a report advising Governments what to do. Some advice

:22:11.:22:15.

was sound and something which many have raised. A revaluation of

:22:16.:22:20.

council tax bands is something we debate. However, that is an issue

:22:21.:22:26.

for national Parliaments to discuss. It is not a job to tell us how to

:22:27.:22:30.

run our economy. APPLAUSE

:22:31.:22:37.

I just want to disagree with the last speaker, in the sense that not

:22:38.:22:42.

being in the European Union did not protect us in 1939 from the rise of

:22:43.:22:47.

the far right. We need tone gauge, take them on and make sure we are

:22:48.:22:51.

working with people in Europe and across the world.

:22:52.:23:01.

Liz said they talk about jobs for the boys rather thanes for

:23:02.:23:08.

everybody. The important -- rather than jobs for everybody. The

:23:09.:23:11.

important thing is the person who wants to take the job will cause

:23:12.:23:15.

more problems for this country because he is such a Europhile.

:23:16.:23:21.

If politicians are not listening to what happened two weeks ago with the

:23:22.:23:27.

strong vote for populist parties across Europe, they do need to think

:23:28.:23:31.

where they are coming from. The fact is that the European

:23:32.:23:36.

Commission, making pronouncements about issues such as council tax,

:23:37.:23:41.

only a few days after the people of Europe had shown they did not want

:23:42.:23:45.

micromanagement of their economies, that they wanted the EU to do the

:23:46.:23:50.

things that the EU was there for. Which is thicks which are -- things

:23:51.:23:55.

which are done better at a super national level. We need to

:23:56.:23:59.

renegotiate our position with Europe. Europe has become too

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medalsome it is too far top-down. It is far too dictatorial. There are

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things at a national level that are better done at a national level.

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That is why we need to have that renegotiation and at the end of that

:24:14.:24:17.

period, to lance the boil, because there is certainly a desire in this

:24:18.:24:21.

country that there should be a referendum on whether or not we

:24:22.:24:25.

remain part of the EU. Then we must hold that referendum so, that the

:24:26.:24:28.

people of this country can have a say on their future in Europe. A

:24:29.:24:35.

couple of things... Michael Gove said if there was no renegotiation,

:24:36.:24:41.

if he was asked now if he would stay or go, he would leave. Would you?

:24:42.:24:50.

The question doesn't arise. I am not going to be tempted down

:24:51.:24:56.

that route. I actually believe there are tremendous benefits to being in

:24:57.:25:02.

Europe - Princefully free trade. That I see no reason why the EU

:25:03.:25:14.

should tell me about the shape of a banana. That is not what it is there

:25:15.:25:19.

for. We need to get the best deal in that negotiation and put it to the

:25:20.:25:23.

people of Europe. Who would you like to see as President of the

:25:24.:25:26.

commission? It is clear David Cameron and your party don't want...

:25:27.:25:32.

Who would you like to see? I would like to see someone. A woman!

:25:33.:25:37.

I would like to see someone who recognises that the sentiment in

:25:38.:25:40.

Europe is changing. I would like to see somebody... A

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name please. Tony Blair? Well Tony Blair of course is at

:25:47.:25:50.

great pains to deny he wants the job, so probably does. Of Why don't

:25:51.:25:55.

you suggest a woman? I actually think that we need

:25:56.:26:00.

something who is a -- somebody who is a 21st century politician.

:26:01.:26:08.

Christine Lagarde. She is a very capable woman. It is a European

:26:09.:26:16.

super state. We have four levels of Government. We used to have two.

:26:17.:26:23.

You, Sir and then any other women? You, Sir? Unless I am missing

:26:24.:26:29.

something I don't understand this UKIP. They have more now MEPs than

:26:30.:26:34.

ever before. They want out of Europe. Is that like turkeys voting

:26:35.:26:45.

for Christmas? And you Sir? What I don't understand

:26:46.:26:50.

about pro-European people, why can't we trade with Europe? We will not

:26:51.:26:55.

get the same deal if we are on the outside. I am sorry...

:26:56.:27:00.

As far as I am concerned we are being told by Europe what to do. We

:27:01.:27:05.

should be, I am quite proud living on an island 22 miles from one coast

:27:06.:27:12.

to the other. Why can't we trade with each country individually?

:27:13.:27:16.

Because we'll get penalties. We will not get the same deal and we will

:27:17.:27:21.

not want to have companies investing in this Europe because they see we

:27:22.:27:26.

are a gateway to a wider Europe. APPLAUSE

:27:27.:27:30.

Am I right in saying... We would not get the same deal on regional policy

:27:31.:27:35.

as well. People here know how much money goes... This is the Plaid

:27:36.:27:39.

Cymru mantra, that overlooks the fact we are net contributors to

:27:40.:27:44.

Europe. All we do is get our own money back.

:27:45.:27:49.

Wales is a beneficialry from Europe and we should not forget that. ?55

:27:50.:27:57.

million is what we pay Europe every day. That comes from the taxpayers.

:27:58.:28:02.

Now another question. I am so many here. I think I will try this one

:28:03.:28:10.

from Chandra Dodgson, please. Given the allegations of corruption

:28:11.:28:16.

in relation to the 2022 bid should Qatar be allowed to host the

:28:17.:28:22.

competition? Isabel Hardman? I am not a massive

:28:23.:28:28.

of football fan. I am more of a cricket girl. I think this is

:28:29.:28:32.

another example of an international Governing body which is hugely

:28:33.:28:41.

unaccountable. What are our options? The only option is to pull out of

:28:42.:28:45.

the World Cup. I don't think we would want to do that on our own.

:28:46.:28:50.

Why? I don't think we have enough might to bring the competition

:28:51.:28:53.

falling down around us. We would have to act with other countries: If

:28:54.:28:58.

we were able to do and that find others who wanted to do that,

:28:59.:29:01.

perhaps that would rock FIFA enough to realise it is accountable. This

:29:02.:29:08.

is going back to ins tugsss which think -- institutions which think

:29:09.:29:10.

they cannot being scrutinised. looking forward to the World Cup.

:29:11.:29:30.

It's no surprise, is it? Qatar getting the World Cup, and we find

:29:31.:29:37.

that it is corrupt. At the time, when it was offered, a lot of people

:29:38.:29:44.

said it was corrupt. Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini called us

:29:45.:29:54.

whingeing poms, basically. So it's no surprise it was corrupt. I would

:29:55.:29:58.

forward the suggestion that the Russian World Cup would have gone

:29:59.:30:02.

the same way. When is that? The one before? What do you think, wearing a

:30:03.:30:09.

football shirt? Personally, I think that FIFA must be absolutely loving

:30:10.:30:12.

this. It's going to Russia, take country that is anti-gay, racist and

:30:13.:30:19.

we are completely ignoring that and looking eight years in the future.

:30:20.:30:23.

This season, is anything Petersburg signed a black, non-Russian player.

:30:24.:30:27.

All of their fans rioted outside the stadium because that happened. You

:30:28.:30:33.

cannot walk down the street and kiss somebody of the same sex as you, you

:30:34.:30:37.

can get arrested. A World Cup has been given there? I think FIFA as

:30:38.:30:42.

belonging that we are ignoring up and talking eight years in the

:30:43.:30:44.

future. That is a massive mistake, to give it to a country like that.

:30:45.:30:59.

I was thinking if we were part of some broader European Union, we

:31:00.:31:04.

might have some cloud in pulling out. I'm not a huge football fan...

:31:05.:31:18.

You don't have to say that, it's an issue of principle and bribery,

:31:19.:31:21.

corruption. Looking from the outside, it seems that the process

:31:22.:31:26.

that decided on Qatar stank to high heaven, as far as I could see. I'm

:31:27.:31:30.

not aware what happened behind closed doors at FIFA. It seems to me

:31:31.:31:34.

to be an organisation which is ripe for reform. Certainly, my only take

:31:35.:31:43.

on it, to the front, as a Welsh Nationalist, is that I wish that

:31:44.:31:52.

Wales had got into the World Cup. I think if those allegations are true,

:31:53.:31:56.

it should definitely be completely rerun. I think it stinks. Money can

:31:57.:32:06.

buy anything. It has just become overwhelmed with money, this sport.

:32:07.:32:13.

I am an MP in Leicester, our fans love the game. To feel it can be

:32:14.:32:17.

bought and sold, just like that, it seems awful. I think it is even

:32:18.:32:26.

worse than that. Jim Murphy, our Shadow International Development

:32:27.:32:28.

Secretary, he went to Qatar to see what was happening with the building

:32:29.:32:35.

work. He found appalling conditions. This is happening with no

:32:36.:32:39.

oversight, no control. What is FIFA erring about those people, and those

:32:40.:32:43.

appalling conditions? This is a disgrace. What are our countries,

:32:44.:32:50.

our clubs, doing? We got to sort this out. People are passionate.

:32:51.:32:54.

People care more than they care about politics and politicians. They

:32:55.:33:03.

feel passionately about football. We've got to make it work. I totally

:33:04.:33:08.

agree with you. If corruption is found, it's got to go for a revote.

:33:09.:33:13.

It's not just the FIFA setup the league of Wales matches have been

:33:14.:33:19.

fixed, allegedly. There is a spot fixing in cricket. It is going

:33:20.:33:22.

across sport. It's because there is so much money. That is the bottom

:33:23.:33:26.

line, there is so much money invested. You, sir? As with the

:33:27.:33:32.

European issue before, I don't think we should dismiss our negotiating

:33:33.:33:36.

position. The Premier League is widely admired. The biggest sport,

:33:37.:33:42.

followed all around the world. As with our European position, we can

:33:43.:33:45.

negotiate and take a leadership point of view. We have to wait for

:33:46.:33:49.

the legal decisions. But, you know what, FIFA is rotten to the core and

:33:50.:33:56.

it's got it coming. Do you agree, FIFA rotten to the core? I think it

:33:57.:34:01.

is an organisation in urgent need of reform. The fact is, it is

:34:02.:34:05.

unaccountable. I understand there is a New York lawyer called John

:34:06.:34:09.

Garcia, carrying out an inquiry into FIFA. Anybody who saw the

:34:10.:34:16.

allegations in the Sunday Times would be saying, extend your inquiry

:34:17.:34:21.

into what happened in Qatar. It was always very, very surprising that a

:34:22.:34:26.

country which has got temperatures in the summer of 40 degrees gets a

:34:27.:34:32.

summer competition. Frankly, suggestions you can air conditioned

:34:33.:34:38.

football stadiums, ludicrous! FIFA is an organisation that appears, to

:34:39.:34:41.

me, to become Pisi unaccountable. I hope that the glare of publicity

:34:42.:34:57.

they have will lead to an investigation. One brief thing? Are

:34:58.:35:04.

we strong enough to stand up to all this corruption? Match fixing,

:35:05.:35:16.

European whatnot... Aren't Britain's strong enough? You're talking about

:35:17.:35:21.

free trade, we can't deal with anybody. We are the best, or used to

:35:22.:35:26.

be. Someone fight for us! Someone fight for us. What we wanted someone

:35:27.:35:33.

to fight for us? A government strong enough. Stephen Jones. When

:35:34.:35:41.

considering the Welsh Assembly's poor track record, is it wise they

:35:42.:35:45.

may be offered further powers by Westminster? This goes to the very

:35:46.:35:49.

heart of devolution. Scotland is being offered, if they vote no, huge

:35:50.:35:57.

extra powers. This question is if the poor track record of the Welsh

:35:58.:36:00.

Assembly means it is wise to offer future powers. We have the Wales

:36:01.:36:06.

Bill going through Parliament at the moment. It will be giving the Welsh

:36:07.:36:10.

Assembly the power to hold a referendum on whether or not they

:36:11.:36:12.

should have income tax raising powers. I think that is a good

:36:13.:36:17.

thing. I think it's a good thing for several reasons. First, it will

:36:18.:36:20.

bring accountability into the Welsh Assembly for the first time. So far,

:36:21.:36:26.

the assembly government has just been the recipient of money from

:36:27.:36:29.

Westminster, which means it is in the wonderful position of

:36:30.:36:32.

complaining about not getting enough money from Westminster and, at the

:36:33.:36:36.

same time, not being accountable for the way the money is raised. For the

:36:37.:36:40.

first time, the party standing in assembly elections will have to say

:36:41.:36:44.

what they will do with the money that they raised directly from the

:36:45.:36:50.

taxpayers. I think that is a sign of maturity in government. I actually

:36:51.:36:53.

believe, also, it would be good for Wales. If they are wise, they will

:36:54.:36:59.

call that referendum on the basis that they will reduce the basic rate

:37:00.:37:06.

of tax. I think that, again, would show maturity on the part of the

:37:07.:37:09.

Welsh Assembly. It would show that they were willing to take a punt at

:37:10.:37:15.

making Wales a more competitive place. One of the big problems it

:37:16.:37:20.

has had is that is not being competitive. That would give Wales a

:37:21.:37:28.

little competitive edge. Stephen Jones's question started considering

:37:29.:37:31.

the Welsh Assembly's poor track record? I don't agree it has had a

:37:32.:37:37.

poor track record. Like any government you could do better. One

:37:38.:37:41.

thing I am jealous of, that I would like in my constituency, Jobs Growth

:37:42.:37:50.

Wales, it has been phenomenal and getting young people back to work.

:37:51.:37:54.

80% of young people in private-sector jobs have gone on to

:37:55.:37:58.

a proper job, and higher levels for graduates. We desperately need, I

:37:59.:38:02.

desperately want something in England and I want it in my

:38:03.:38:05.

constituency. So I don't agree it has got a poor track record. I have

:38:06.:38:13.

always believed in, you know, giving power back as close to people as

:38:14.:38:17.

possible. I think Labour is the party of devolution. We have

:38:18.:38:20.

delivered it, we want to go further. I think it needs to go down further

:38:21.:38:24.

as well, not just down to the different nation states, in England

:38:25.:38:32.

to city regions, but right down to communities. Do you think they

:38:33.:38:35.

should have tax-raising powers as well? We said there should be tax

:38:36.:38:40.

varying powers. You didn't initially, you didn't want

:38:41.:38:47.

devolution. We've been very clear. You been far from clear! We said

:38:48.:38:53.

that they should be subject to a referendum on tax varying powers. I

:38:54.:38:56.

don't want to see a race to the bottom, different countries

:38:57.:39:01.

undercutting each other. I believe that devolution and further

:39:02.:39:05.

devolution gives the best of both worlds. Do you agree with what the

:39:06.:39:08.

Conservative government is offering to Wales? No. You seem a bit

:39:09.:39:24.

doubtful. It was kind of nnn...yes. Ultimately, I think we are stronger

:39:25.:39:33.

together. Our policy has been that by the strength of our

:39:34.:39:34.

together. Our policy has been that by the common endeavour we achieve

:39:35.:39:37.

more together than alone. That is what I think a strong Welsh

:39:38.:39:41.

Assembly, backed up by security and strength, has been giving to the

:39:42.:39:47.

United Kingdom. With Labour's record with health and education in Wales,

:39:48.:39:53.

and the Coalition Government's record on the economy in England,

:39:54.:39:57.

should Labour be trusted with any money whatsoever? I would have grave

:39:58.:40:04.

concerns about the Welsh Assembly having tax-raising powers. Grave

:40:05.:40:12.

concerns. Maybe it is a lack of confidence in the ability of the

:40:13.:40:15.

people that are running it. I don't believe that we have first-rate

:40:16.:40:19.

politicians running the Welsh Assembly. If I was running for

:40:20.:40:27.

politics, I would want to be in Whitehall, not the Welsh Assembly. I

:40:28.:40:30.

think most of the better MPs would be there. We now have four levels of

:40:31.:40:36.

government. It's a fact, when I was growing up, you had Whitehall, you

:40:37.:40:40.

had local councils. Now we have the Welsh Assembly and we have Europe.

:40:41.:40:45.

It's no coincidence that our levels of taxation have gone up, up and up.

:40:46.:40:53.

More waste. It is more waste, thank you for that. I believe United we

:40:54.:40:57.

stand, divided we fall. It does concern me that Scotland looked like

:40:58.:41:00.

they are heading for independence. I think the Commonwealth games being

:41:01.:41:03.

held in Scotland, the Ryder Cup being held in Scotland, the 200th

:41:04.:41:08.

anniversary of Bannockburn, they will play Braveheart on the

:41:09.:41:11.

television the night before the vote and I think it is doomed.

:41:12.:41:21.

I do find it slightly strange that Welsh Labour boast about the number

:41:22.:41:27.

of jobs they have created for young people. Actually, a lot of those

:41:28.:41:30.

jobs have gone to young people who could have got a better job

:41:31.:41:34.

straightaway if they had better education. If you look at Welsh

:41:35.:41:40.

education, Wales and England have the same potential, yet they have

:41:41.:41:44.

vastly different public services. The amount of education that Nev has

:41:45.:41:49.

to give some of his employees just to get them to work, it is shopping

:41:50.:41:53.

they don't arrive at his call centre with better education from the

:41:54.:41:56.

schools they are given. I think it is a public tragedy. -- shocking.

:41:57.:42:01.

Again, that is an ardent for accountability. If the Welsh

:42:02.:42:06.

government are having to raise taxes, directly from the people of

:42:07.:42:09.

Wales, they are going to be answerable to the people of Wales

:42:10.:42:13.

for the money is spent. If they are policing poor education results,

:42:14.:42:17.

which they are, and declining education results, they will have to

:42:18.:42:22.

explain themselves. The woman up there, at the back. Wales is seen as

:42:23.:42:31.

the poor man in the UK. How, by raising taxes, if Wales has ability

:42:32.:42:36.

to raise taxes in Wales, how are we going to lose that stigma of being

:42:37.:42:44.

the poor man in the UK? You, sir. I am a GP, at the chalk face of the

:42:45.:42:49.

Health Service in North Wales. People at the Health Service are

:42:50.:42:54.

working extremely hard. I dread to have more devolution to Wales as it

:42:55.:42:59.

stands. You already have full power, autonomous control of the health

:43:00.:43:12.

economy. You spent 15 minutes slagging each other off. You want to

:43:13.:43:22.

increase taxes to Wales. We have a major recruitment programme. We are

:43:23.:43:27.

nearly in crisis bringing GPs to Wales. How are we going to bring

:43:28.:43:31.

them if we are paying more tax? Nobody is proposing more tax. Lets

:43:32.:43:37.

get real, we are not going to get lower taxes in Wales. The proposal

:43:38.:43:46.

in the Wales Bill is that the assembly takes responsible as he

:43:47.:43:49.

fought taxes, which are now going to London. It is not more tax, it is

:43:50.:43:55.

who takes the tax. Out of that, the Welsh Assembly will then be able to

:43:56.:44:01.

borrow some money and be able to improve the M4, the M5. You may

:44:02.:44:07.

borrow the tax, but you have to pay it back. You will increase tax if

:44:08.:44:14.

you get those powers. I think Labour are a bit iffy about this. Of

:44:15.:44:22.

course, Labour will then be the government that has to take

:44:23.:44:26.

responsibility for raising this tax and spending it, and for accounting

:44:27.:44:29.

to you and the other people in Wales as to what they have done with it. I

:44:30.:44:34.

think Labour feel quite comfortable with the situation they are in at

:44:35.:44:38.

the moment, where they get large lumps of money from London and don't

:44:39.:44:46.

have to account for it. One of the reasons that local Government in

:44:47.:44:50.

England has been stocked with some less than impressive councillors,

:44:51.:44:53.

not across the board, obviously, but in the same way you feel some of

:44:54.:44:59.

your Assembly representatives are unimpressive s so much power was

:45:00.:45:04.

taken away from them. By giving local representatives an opportunity

:45:05.:45:07.

to choose what decisions are made in their area, that is how you

:45:08.:45:11.

encourage people into Government. They will have a sense of power and

:45:12.:45:18.

not just about bins. Having witnessed the Welsh Assembly's

:45:19.:45:21.

ability to waste money, I think if they are given more, if they are

:45:22.:45:26.

given any tax-raising powers, all it will do is cost every person in

:45:27.:45:31.

Wales a lot more money. APPLAUSE

:45:32.:45:33.

We leave it there. A question now from Rob Maximus, please.

:45:34.:45:38.

Hello, everyone. Nice name. I like it too!

:45:39.:45:48.

Get on with it! ? Is it right to exchange prisoners with the Taliban

:45:49.:45:53.

or any terrorist group? Of course the American President has

:45:54.:45:59.

exchanged a Sergeant for five Taliban members.

:46:00.:46:02.

Isabel Hardman? Well, I think the mantra that you

:46:03.:46:07.

don't leave a soldier behind is clearly very important in this

:46:08.:46:12.

situation. I think also the problem is that there's a huge fear about

:46:13.:46:16.

who's being sent back as part of this exchange.

:46:17.:46:20.

And also about the circumstances in which this soldier who is being

:46:21.:46:24.

brought back actually disappeared. There are allegations he deserted.

:46:25.:46:29.

Do you mean he could have been left there? Not at all. The point

:46:30.:46:33.

President Obama made was you don't leave a soldier behind even if he

:46:34.:46:37.

has deserted. The point about whether his return should be

:46:38.:46:42.

celebrated in his home State. He is still someone's son who should come

:46:43.:46:45.

home. What do you think about the rightness of exchanging? I think it

:46:46.:46:49.

is a hugely difficult choice, but then choices in foreign policy

:46:50.:46:52.

always are very difficult. There's no, I don't want to say there's no

:46:53.:46:57.

purity in foreign policy, but you cannot make these simple purist

:46:58.:47:01.

decisions that you have to be able to negotiate with different groups.

:47:02.:47:04.

Were the Republicans right to say he had broken an agreement, that the

:47:05.:47:09.

White House would consult Congress before doing deals like this? I'll

:47:10.:47:13.

be honest, I don't know enough about the situation. I will not pass

:47:14.:47:16.

judgment. I'll have some humility here and say I don't know enough.

:47:17.:47:25.

OK, Liz Kendall? I think overall, there are rightful concerns about

:47:26.:47:28.

doing deals with terrorists because you don't know who you will be

:47:29.:47:33.

letting free. I know that if I was in the soldier's family though, I

:47:34.:47:38.

would be thanking the Lord and thanking President Obama that my

:47:39.:47:42.

son, my husband, my brother, was coming home. I don't know the

:47:43.:47:46.

background of who the people were who were returned, who danger r

:47:47.:47:52.

threat they posed. We -- danger or threat they posed. On issues like

:47:53.:47:57.

that, the security of your country and not putting your countrymen at

:47:58.:48:02.

risk by terrorists would be the overwhelmling thing. I think

:48:03.:48:06.

anything to get our boys and girls home. We would have had a lot of

:48:07.:48:10.

intelligence from these people. We will put them back. Put them under

:48:11.:48:15.

surveillance. Technology these days. We can see where they are going. Get

:48:16.:48:19.

our boys and girls back while we can.

:48:20.:48:22.

OK and you, Sir. I think that ultimately we'll have

:48:23.:48:26.

to discuss issues with the Taliban, anyway. They will not go away. They

:48:27.:48:31.

are going to, the Americans, as far as I understand, are already talking

:48:32.:48:35.

to the Taliban. They have opened an embassy in Qatar. So, you can't just

:48:36.:48:42.

make a decision like that and separate it out.

:48:43.:48:47.

Every conflict is going to be resolved in discussion and dialogue,

:48:48.:48:52.

otherwise you carry on killing each other. It is a difficult moral

:48:53.:48:57.

issue. Liz says if it was my son, then I would certainly be concerned

:48:58.:49:02.

to get him back. The problem is when you start to negotiate with

:49:03.:49:05.

terrorists, frequently the result can be that you encourage further

:49:06.:49:10.

terrorism. If the terrorist group know they can swam swap some of

:49:11.:49:14.

their own members for an American or British soldier, that will encourage

:49:15.:49:19.

them to kidnap another British or American soldier. So, it is an

:49:20.:49:22.

extremely difficult, moral, decision. My own feeling is it

:49:23.:49:27.

extremely dangerous to negotiate with terrorists. I would start the

:49:28.:49:35.

whole consideration with, whose other life

:49:36.:49:36.

whole consideration with, whose other am I imperilling as a re--

:49:37.:49:43.

imperilling as a result of that. The White House had broke an pledge and

:49:44.:49:47.

shouldn't have done it? I think the White House should certainly have

:49:48.:49:49.

further discussions. It is a hard decision. One

:49:50.:49:55.

understands from, at a human level why one wants that prisoner

:49:56.:50:02.

released. Maybe you should think again.

:50:03.:50:11.

Hywel. Robin Cook said he wanted a moral fld policy. I think that was

:50:12.:50:15.

attractive at the time. Rather unrealistic. That is how it proved

:50:16.:50:20.

to be. The reality is that Government talks the other side the

:50:21.:50:24.

other time. The Thatcher Government when they were swearing they were

:50:25.:50:27.

not talking to the IRA of course were talking to them through back

:50:28.:50:33.

channels. That is the reality of relations like that. I think in that

:50:34.:50:37.

situation we must make sure that our hands are as clean as possible and I

:50:38.:50:42.

am afraid that our intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan means that we

:50:43.:50:46.

don't have very clean hands. APPLAUSE

:50:47.:50:57.

I agree if it was my son I would want him home under any

:50:58.:51:01.

circumstances. As a businessman, 5-1 is not a very good deal. I think it

:51:02.:51:06.

is also worth remembering, maybe because I am old I remember these

:51:07.:51:11.

things, but the first bill that President Obama passed when he first

:51:12.:51:17.

got in was, he released lots of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.

:51:18.:51:21.

And there was nobody coming back this way.

:51:22.:51:29.

Or America's way. He must like releasing prisoners. I don't

:51:30.:51:33.

understand everything, but that one baffled me.

:51:34.:51:40.

Say again. You say 5-1 for a soldier. Israel paid 1,000-1 for one

:51:41.:51:47.

of theirs. They have the same attitude, we must

:51:48.:51:51.

get our boys back. It is a very difficult answer. Your wider point,

:51:52.:51:56.

that in the end it is always a political settlement that solves

:51:57.:52:00.

these problems. It is never ultimately a military, it is a

:52:01.:52:03.

political settlement that is required, is absolutely spot-on.

:52:04.:52:10.

Alan Morgan, please. Should it be the telephone provider

:52:11.:52:17.

that blocks unwanted calls from sales organisations?

:52:18.:52:23.

This strikes home here! I will not come to you first. We will point out

:52:24.:52:29.

that yours is the business that makes cold calls to people and they

:52:30.:52:33.

have to go to their telephone and it is not somebody they want to speak

:52:34.:52:38.

to. It is a recorded message from somebody or somebody they have never

:52:39.:52:43.

heard of. David Jones, the do you think it would be good if it could

:52:44.:52:48.

be banned and telephone providers could block these type of calls? I

:52:49.:52:54.

have spent a bit of time this week telephone canvassing for a

:52:55.:52:57.

by-election. I can say I know how Nev feels. Everybody is delighted to

:52:58.:53:01.

get the telephone call. I think people can make their own decisions

:53:02.:53:06.

if they wish to do so, then they can sign up to the Telephone Preference

:53:07.:53:10.

Service. I know a lot of people actually like

:53:11.:53:15.

having cold calls, believe it or not. Nev told me earlier on how

:53:16.:53:22.

delighted they are. He would say, that wouldn't he!

:53:23.:53:28.

What do you think? I obviously have a vested interest in this one.

:53:29.:53:33.

Perhaps you don't want to answer it. It was quite a shock to find out

:53:34.:53:42.

from David earlier on that, with the by-election how much telly

:53:43.:53:46.

canvassing they do, when there are certain politicians trying to nobble

:53:47.:53:49.

our industry totally. That was, I thought a little bit hypercritical.

:53:50.:53:54.

But the industry employs over one million people. What do you want to

:53:55.:53:59.

do? Do you want to put them out of work? Do you want to export more

:54:00.:54:03.

jobs. Our factories have gone. Do you want to export these as well?

:54:04.:54:12.

APPLAUSE Were you fined once for call cold

:54:13.:54:22.

gssing? Yes -- call colding? Yes. Are you in favour of being called?

:54:23.:54:28.

Personally I hate being cold called. I agree with David Jones, I have a

:54:29.:54:33.

brain. I can tell people I am not interested. The problem I have is

:54:34.:54:38.

the cleverness of the electronics of these companies, that I have had, I

:54:39.:54:46.

don't know, 60/70 texts, phone calls and e-mails about a loan I have

:54:47.:54:49.

applied for, that I have never applied for. I have to go through

:54:50.:54:52.

and the number changes every time, so that every single timevy to reply

:54:53.:54:59.

to the text -- time, I have to reply to the text to say, "Stop." It is

:55:00.:55:06.

fine if I talk to one company and say, no thanks. But the fact it is

:55:07.:55:11.

60-70 different numbers coming through, I have to keep blocking

:55:12.:55:17.

them. It is the pizza leaflets through my door... This is not a

:55:18.:55:23.

question about pizza leaflets. I wonder what the hit rate is. I am

:55:24.:55:29.

amazed you manage to make a profit for this. It is not so bad. I have

:55:30.:55:35.

never bought a pizza from one of those leaflets. This is telephone

:55:36.:55:40.

calls! Nev Wilshire, what do you think? --

:55:41.:55:49.

Hywel Williams, what do you think? When they phone me up and say about

:55:50.:55:54.

some windows, I say, put them in. What about a kitchen. We like toast

:55:55.:55:59.

in our house. Life insurance, insured up to my ears. The calls

:56:00.:56:04.

tail off because they know I am not a good mark. Actually, I have got

:56:05.:56:09.

nothing against people trying to go out and sell, make money, run their

:56:10.:56:13.

businesses, a lot of our economy is built on the back of good sales

:56:14.:56:19.

people. I get annoyed. I would never of course shout and swear and leave

:56:20.:56:24.

a message or anything like. That I am more irritated by US e-mail spam.

:56:25.:56:29.

I can not bear that. They are of try... Does your telephone ring in

:56:30.:56:33.

the house just as you are getting a cup of coffee and the dog is in the

:56:34.:56:39.

way and you have not shaved yet... No, you probably don't shave every

:56:40.:56:43.

morning, like I do! You are in the middle of do other

:56:44.:56:49.

things. -- doing other things. The only

:56:50.:56:54.

people who have my land line is my mum and my friend, Sam. They know

:56:55.:56:59.

not to ring unless it is on a Sunday. If I don't know who it is on

:57:00.:57:05.

my phone, I don't pick it up. Yes, you have spoken already. I want

:57:06.:57:09.

to go to somebody who has not spoken. Yes, the woman over there on

:57:10.:57:14.

the right. Isn't it true the TPS only works in the UK. It does not

:57:15.:57:18.

screen out calls from other countries. You can ask this one and

:57:19.:57:24.

then we can stop. To be honest, I don't know.

:57:25.:57:28.

If the Government made it illegal for us to cold call in this country

:57:29.:57:32.

then it would not be illegal from me to call you from South Africa or

:57:33.:57:37.

inds ya. We have to -- India. We have to stop.

:57:38.:57:39.

inds ya. We have to -- India. We have We'll be in King's Lynn next

:57:40.:57:42.

week. We have Iain Duncan Smith for the Tories. We have Ian Hislop for

:57:43.:57:46.

Private Eye. And the week after that, we are giving Away, by public

:57:47.:57:53.

demand for a football match, between Japan and Greece.

:57:54.:57:58.

Unmissable. But we are back the week after that,

:57:59.:58:03.

in Wolverhampton. So, if you would like to take part in either

:58:04.:58:10.

programme, apply on our website, the site is on the screen there or call

:58:11.:58:16.

us: We will cold call you back and see

:58:17.:58:21.

if you can come. If you are listening on 5 Live there is more on

:58:22.:58:25.

Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to our panel. To all of you who came

:58:26.:58:30.

here tonight to take part in this programme. Until next Thursday, from

:58:31.:58:32.

all of us, good night.

:58:33.:58:39.

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