05/06/2014 Question Time


David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Llandudno in Wales. With David Jones, Liz Kendall, Hywel Williams, Isabel Hardman and Nev Wilshire.

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 05/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!



Welcome to you at home, to our audience here


and to our panel - who, as ever, don?t know the questions.


They are Conservative Secretary of State for Wales David Jones,


Labour?s Shadow Health Minister, Liz Kendall,


The Spectator and Daily Telegraph columnist Isabel Hardman,


star of the BBC?s documentary The Call Centre.


is from Helen Garner, please. Given that we have a national health


service, why are patients in Wales being subjected to a second-class


service compared to those in England? Is that true, David Jones?


It is not as good as it is in England. This is one of the major


complaint is that all Welsh politicians get. That they are


paying the same rate of income tax, they are paying the


politicians get. That they are paying the same rate of income same


rate of national insurance contributions as everybody else, and


yet, if they want to go for a hip replacement operation, to the


nearest hospital in England, they have a waiting time of 26 weeks. The


English patient in the bed next door has only been waiting for 18 weeks.


There is really no use for it. Is there an explanation? Yes, that the


Labour Party runs the National health service in Wales.


The NHS in Wales is supported at a better rate than the NHS in England


because of the Barnett formula. Nevertheless, we are seeing an


increasing decline in the Health Service in Wales. One of the most


important messages will be trying to deliver over the next 12 months is


if you want to see what the Labour Party would do to the Health Service


in England, just look at what is happening in Wales. I don't think


you would want that. Liz Kendall? Helen, I think there are examples


where people wait too long and where people have poor standard of care.


That happened in Wales, Scotland, England and Northern Ireland. I


think any examples of poor care, where health suffers, has got to be


rigourously exposed, investigated and action taken. Is it a


second-class service compared with England? I don't believe that. There


will be statistics flying around but, for example, cancer survival


rates, in Wales they have improved faster than any other part of the


country. Your wait times for cancer treatment, you have more people


being seen within two months. In fact, this year, for the first time,


this week, for the first time in England, the English NHS missed a


cancer target. What I think is a problem is when this issue becomes a


political football. The Health Service is so important to us all,


all of our families. It was important to my grandma and grandpa,


they used the Health Service here. All health services need to improve.


What I'm worried about is the approach the Tories are taking by


trying to attack the Health Service in Wales without having a balanced


approach, because it is the English NHS that is going backwards. We have


have the worst A in aid decade in England. We have a delayed


discharges from hospital for very elderly people going up in England,


when they are coming down in Wales. So Wales is better than England? You


might not believe me on a thing because I am a politician, but an


independent organisation did the first-ever study into the four


nations, what was happening in the Health Service, they said in on of


them were massively ahead or behind. Sir Bruce Keogh, England's medical


director, writing to his Welsh counterpart, saying he is worried


about persistently high death rates, which warrant investigating in six


Welsh hospitals. Right or wrong to say that? Those hospitals are


rightly being looked into. Actually the Welsh Gutmann was the crew had


refused the inquiry. If they were concerned, they would listen to Sir


Bruce Keogh and instigated inquiry here. Do you think it is right for a


British prime is to come and say the border is the line between life and


death? I think he is highlighting the fact that the NHS in Wales is


not... Waiting times... Of course, spending is high in Wales, but we


have a higher demand. If you look at what the Labour government has done


over the last few years, they have prioritised spending on important


things like education and the economy. But spending on health has


not been prioritised. That is one of the reasons why we are where we are


today. One thing that disappointed me is that a Labour MP offered to


give evidence to the assembly committee looking into the Health


Service and they refused to listen. I can't understand why politicians


would refuse to listen to evidence, especially from someone from their


own party. I thought that was a disgrace.


I appreciate this is maybe something that affected your family in the


past. It is something that is affecting my


family right now. When you are the director of the National Ambulance


Service, would you think it was acceptable that, consistently,


ambulance waiting times and hand over times are not being met? In


some cases, people are waiting several hours in ambulances because


there are not the resources in hospitals because there is not the


spending in Welsh hospitals. Do you think that is acceptable? Indirect


answer to that, I don't think it is acceptable that people are stuck in


ambulances outside hospitals. I actually have the same problem,


often with the East Midlands and billing service. I think any of


those issues must be tackled head-on. -- Ambulance Service. We


should not accept poor standards of care anywhere in the NHS in this


country. I will speak from personal experience. The Welsh NHS is


appalling. My son waited seven hours in A in


Morriston with a broken arm. No care whatsoever. My mother and father


have recently been in Morriston Hospital. My mother with a hip


operation, she caught an infection. She wanted a nurse to lift her up,


no, I haven't been trained. It's pathetic. I think we must


differentiate between the people that work in the NHS, dedicated


people who give the care that people need and work very long hours, and


the people that run it and decide the political direction that it's


going to be taking. We have to be clear we are not attacking NHS staff


and the people that are delivering a fine service, in many cases.


When my father was in hospital, he was nearest by foreign nurses that I


could not conversed with. If we want jobs in Wales, and we need jobs in


Wales, why can we not train proper Welsh people to nurse? Why do nurses


have to go to university... The man here, in blue. Sunni the NHS in


Wales is appalling, I completely agree. I have been at the end of


what people would describe as being appalling. Ambulances were not


available when I broke my leg. They sent a paramedic car and then the


Welsh air ambulance, which costs money for them and then, when I get


into the air, they realise they cannot go to the hospital because


there are three hour waiting times being stuck outside in ambulances.


You were saying about targets not being met for the first year. The


Welsh NHS has being met for the first year. The


Welsh NHS not met targets since 2009.


You, madam? I don't think that we can generalise about the whole of


the NHS. The NHS covers from accident and emergency until


end-stage illness. Personally, I am retired from the NHS, five years


ago. I have had to call on the services of the NHS during those


five years. Two of them were, as, you would say, emergency. One was


for cancer treatment, where I could not hold my treatment. I was treated


within the time scales, professionally, etc. My second


engagement was with an injury in my eye. I am still been treated for


that, I could not fault it. Where there are pressures in the NHS are


things like trauma and orthopaedic, hip replacement, knee replacement.


Unfortunately, I have waited, I was put on the waiting list for a total


knee replacement on the 31st of May last year. I now have a date for


surgery, I go in on the 29th of this month and the 30th. You were in the


NHS? I was. What do you make of what the Prime Minister said about


between Wales and England, life and death? Is the NHS in England so much


better? I would not say so. With the big issues they have had in England,


with some of the horrors that have happened in England, I think we have


a good health service in Wales. The point that you make about hip and


knee replacements is absolutely bang on. Elective surgery is the biggest


problem. The waiting time in Wales is 189 days, in England, about 86


days. That is not right. If you are paying your national insurance


contributions, your taxes, you are entitled to a conference or service,


wherever you live. I do feel for Liz. She's having to


defend decisions made by colleagues across the border, when she is an


English Labour MP. It is very difficult when you have a party that


may be taking a different direction to yours. That said, I can


understand why the Tories are going after Labour on this. Next year's


general election will be about the NHS. The Tories desperately want to


steal the crown of the party of the NHS from Labour, after Mid-Staffs,


after what is happening in Wales. But I don't think Labour's response


should be as offensive as it is. Our institutions always improve when


they are under Scuderia. The Royal family have a dreadful time in the


1990s, came out on top after scrutiny. The NHS will come out on


top after scrutiny. The areas that don't do well are often the areas


that don't have scrutiny. Geriatric care in England is terrible because


people do not scrutinise it. It is only that spotlight that will


improve services. I agree, I don't like the NHS being used as a


political football. You can't really compare Wales with England. It is a


much poorer country. Look at the demographics, we have a lot more


elderly people, high rates of diabetes, depression. We live in a


post-industrial society. Going back to what this gentleman said, it is


not just about the ambulances getting there. We need decent rail


links and roads. Where I am from, I am no defender of Welsh Labour, but


they are going to centralise everything to the hospital, so


people from Aberystwyth, Haverfordwest, they have to travel


such a long way. There is not a rail link. What are we doing about that?


I am not convinced of the premise in my neighbour's question, that the


Health Service in Wales is in anyway second-class. I have had the


misfortune to make use of the NHS, in various parts of North Wales


recently, and I can say that, on balance, the service is good. There


is anecdotal evidence, people tell tales of how long they have waited,


but the same sort of tales IKEA in England as well. I really do not --


high here in England as well. I am really not convinced. I went to the


trouble of looking at the Nuffield report, mentioned by a panel


member, and there is no second-class service in Wales.


I agree with what the panel said, a lot of people working in the service


on the ground, nurses and doctors, they can in a difficult situation.


My father had a heart attack and it took 45 minutes for an ambulance to


get to him. I think that is a total disgrace. In terms of cardiac care,


this week there has been information about hospitals in South Wales,


where people are literally dying on waiting lists before they can get I


pass surgery. -- bypass surgery. For you it is a second class service. If


you have you it is a second class service. If


you a kidney problem you have to go to Bristol. Cardiac patients have to


go to Green Green from here. You have to travel to the care. We must


leave it there. We've had quarter of an hour on that topic.


You can join via text or Twitter. Last week when Joey Barton was on we


had the biggest traffic ever. 150,000 Tweets during the programme.


We, boy, did we trend! We move on to another question. From


Stephen Clear, please. This week the European Commission


criticised Britain's council taxes. Is this thaefd the EU is too big,


too bossy and too interfering? Nev Wilshire?


Yes. I think the vote was so strongly in


favour of UKIP, for the Prime Minister to stand up and say, we


need to put a strong voice into Europe, suggesting we do things in a


different way, I think the vote has got to be in or out.


It's as simple as that. You are not going to change Europe. Are we in or


out? I believe - I can remember when Tony Blair and John Major were vying


for the election and the Referendum Party that were gathering a lot of


votes were put to bed because they both agreed that whoever got in was


going to have a referendum. What was that? 18 years ago? Where is it?


Let's have a referendum! Get on with it!


APPLAUSE Do you think it is right for the


European Commission to say we ought to reform taxation of land and


property and other advice, or is that being bossy? I don't think they


should. What Europe needs to be focussing on is creating jobs and


growth. That's what people want. And one of


the things I found frustrating this week and I have probably a different


view, I am pro-Europe. It is really important for jobs in Wales and


across the country n my constituency a lot of jobs rest on trade with


Europe. I think all of the discussion we've heard this week is


about who will get the commission presidency. I don't think they


should be talking about jobs for the boys. They should be talking about


jobs for people in this country. Unless we get that growth in Europe,


it will not work for us and not work for people across that continent.


So, I don't think they should be telling us anything about council


tax. They should focus on what matters to people, which is getting


good jobs, growing the economy, so we can properly compete in the




So when the Prime Minister says Brussels has got too big, too bossy,


too interfering, for once you agree? Europe needs to change. I think it


is unambitious to say that we cannot, together, with other


countries, reform Europe. It is not just about our relationship with


Europe. Europe... APPLAUSE


Given the fact there's a thread of negativity about the EU I am not


sure this is the appropriate time for the EU to be introducing things


which frankly may not matter. If you put me in a ballot-box right now and


I had to vote whether we stayed in or out, I would be honest with you,


I do not know what to vote. I regard myself as being fairly well


informed. I would not know of any independent body. If somebody from


UKIP suggested I listen to what they say. I am not aware at the moment of


any independent body that could give me information from that side,


information from the other side and information from the mid-. So, I


would not -- from the middle. I so I would not know what to vote, yes or


no! This woman here. My understanding is


the reason the EU wanted to interfere was because our council


tax has not been, levels have not been revisited since 1991 and the


value of property has changed dramatically since then. And we are


paying disproportionately more council tax or lower value


properties than on higher value properties. Frankly I think that is


a good reason for having some kind of...


That is an extremely good point. If we are talking about Governments


interfering in the way council tax is run. People in this room will


know that people at home in England will know that council tax in Wales


was changed a few years ago. We have new bands in Wales. Everybody here


was affected by it, I think. When the Government saw the effect on


Wales, they decided not to do it in England. If we are talking about


interfering in council tax, it has happened here already.




The man in the green shirt. Yes. I am 82 years and I come to this at a


different angle after recent elections. I was delighted this


country thrashed the far right, the British National Front. What did


concern me and does concern me is the rise of the far right in Europe


as a whole, with increased anti-Semitism there, we had the


recent massacre in Belgium. I am concerned that we are getting an


increased... It is a good reason for me why I would vote out. This


country has shown, we don't want to know anything about Nazis and far


right. We are receptive to be friendly to everybody. You think


that rather than reform of the EU itself, which would change people's


view? I don't think it would. I think the far right has got too big


a hold now. Think of Le Pen and how she walked through France. I am


concerned because I am young enough to know what happened in the last


war. I don't want a repeat of that. We don't give up against the far


right. That is the point. We work together.


I think the rise of the far right makes this report which could have


been comal in its timing after the results serious. It shows the


European elite don't want to listen to the electorate. Only a few days


after the National Front had done so well in France, across Europe,


parties which were showing voters' discontent with the EU. They


published a report advising Governments what to do. Some advice


was sound and something which many have raised. A revaluation of


council tax bands is something we debate. However, that is an issue


for national Parliaments to discuss. It is not a job to tell us how to


run our economy. APPLAUSE


I just want to disagree with the last speaker, in the sense that not


being in the European Union did not protect us in 1939 from the rise of


the far right. We need tone gauge, take them on and make sure we are


working with people in Europe and across the world.


Liz said they talk about jobs for the boys rather thanes for


everybody. The important -- rather than jobs for everybody. The


important thing is the person who wants to take the job will cause


more problems for this country because he is such a Europhile.


If politicians are not listening to what happened two weeks ago with the


strong vote for populist parties across Europe, they do need to think


where they are coming from. The fact is that the European


Commission, making pronouncements about issues such as council tax,


only a few days after the people of Europe had shown they did not want


micromanagement of their economies, that they wanted the EU to do the


things that the EU was there for. Which is thicks which are -- things


which are done better at a super national level. We need to


renegotiate our position with Europe. Europe has become too


medalsome it is too far top-down. It is far too dictatorial. There are


things at a national level that are better done at a national level.


That is why we need to have that renegotiation and at the end of that


period, to lance the boil, because there is certainly a desire in this


country that there should be a referendum on whether or not we


remain part of the EU. Then we must hold that referendum so, that the


people of this country can have a say on their future in Europe. A


couple of things... Michael Gove said if there was no renegotiation,


if he was asked now if he would stay or go, he would leave. Would you?


The question doesn't arise. I am not going to be tempted down


that route. I actually believe there are tremendous benefits to being in


Europe - Princefully free trade. That I see no reason why the EU


should tell me about the shape of a banana. That is not what it is there


for. We need to get the best deal in that negotiation and put it to the


people of Europe. Who would you like to see as President of the


commission? It is clear David Cameron and your party don't want...


Who would you like to see? I would like to see someone. A woman!


I would like to see someone who recognises that the sentiment in


Europe is changing. I would like to see somebody... A


name please. Tony Blair? Well Tony Blair of course is at


great pains to deny he wants the job, so probably does. Of Why don't


you suggest a woman? I actually think that we need


something who is a -- somebody who is a 21st century politician.


Christine Lagarde. She is a very capable woman. It is a European


super state. We have four levels of Government. We used to have two.


You, Sir and then any other women? You, Sir? Unless I am missing


something I don't understand this UKIP. They have more now MEPs than


ever before. They want out of Europe. Is that like turkeys voting


for Christmas? And you Sir? What I don't understand


about pro-European people, why can't we trade with Europe? We will not


get the same deal if we are on the outside. I am sorry...


As far as I am concerned we are being told by Europe what to do. We


should be, I am quite proud living on an island 22 miles from one coast


to the other. Why can't we trade with each country individually?


Because we'll get penalties. We will not get the same deal and we will


not want to have companies investing in this Europe because they see we


are a gateway to a wider Europe. APPLAUSE


Am I right in saying... We would not get the same deal on regional policy


as well. People here know how much money goes... This is the Plaid


Cymru mantra, that overlooks the fact we are net contributors to


Europe. All we do is get our own money back.


Wales is a beneficialry from Europe and we should not forget that. ?55


million is what we pay Europe every day. That comes from the taxpayers.


Now another question. I am so many here. I think I will try this one


from Chandra Dodgson, please. Given the allegations of corruption


in relation to the 2022 bid should Qatar be allowed to host the


competition? Isabel Hardman? I am not a massive


of football fan. I am more of a cricket girl. I think this is


another example of an international Governing body which is hugely


unaccountable. What are our options? The only option is to pull out of


the World Cup. I don't think we would want to do that on our own.


Why? I don't think we have enough might to bring the competition


falling down around us. We would have to act with other countries: If


we were able to do and that find others who wanted to do that,


perhaps that would rock FIFA enough to realise it is accountable. This


is going back to ins tugsss which think -- institutions which think


they cannot being scrutinised. looking forward to the World Cup.


It's no surprise, is it? Qatar getting the World Cup, and we find


that it is corrupt. At the time, when it was offered, a lot of people


said it was corrupt. Sepp Blatter and Michel Platini called us


whingeing poms, basically. So it's no surprise it was corrupt. I would


forward the suggestion that the Russian World Cup would have gone


the same way. When is that? The one before? What do you think, wearing a


football shirt? Personally, I think that FIFA must be absolutely loving


this. It's going to Russia, take country that is anti-gay, racist and


we are completely ignoring that and looking eight years in the future.


This season, is anything Petersburg signed a black, non-Russian player.


All of their fans rioted outside the stadium because that happened. You


cannot walk down the street and kiss somebody of the same sex as you, you


can get arrested. A World Cup has been given there? I think FIFA as


belonging that we are ignoring up and talking eight years in the


future. That is a massive mistake, to give it to a country like that.


I was thinking if we were part of some broader European Union, we


might have some cloud in pulling out. I'm not a huge football fan...


You don't have to say that, it's an issue of principle and bribery,


corruption. Looking from the outside, it seems that the process


that decided on Qatar stank to high heaven, as far as I could see. I'm


not aware what happened behind closed doors at FIFA. It seems to me


to be an organisation which is ripe for reform. Certainly, my only take


on it, to the front, as a Welsh Nationalist, is that I wish that


Wales had got into the World Cup. I think if those allegations are true,


it should definitely be completely rerun. I think it stinks. Money can


buy anything. It has just become overwhelmed with money, this sport.


I am an MP in Leicester, our fans love the game. To feel it can be


bought and sold, just like that, it seems awful. I think it is even


worse than that. Jim Murphy, our Shadow International Development


Secretary, he went to Qatar to see what was happening with the building


work. He found appalling conditions. This is happening with no


oversight, no control. What is FIFA erring about those people, and those


appalling conditions? This is a disgrace. What are our countries,


our clubs, doing? We got to sort this out. People are passionate.


People care more than they care about politics and politicians. They


feel passionately about football. We've got to make it work. I totally


agree with you. If corruption is found, it's got to go for a revote.


It's not just the FIFA setup the league of Wales matches have been


fixed, allegedly. There is a spot fixing in cricket. It is going


across sport. It's because there is so much money. That is the bottom


line, there is so much money invested. You, sir? As with the


European issue before, I don't think we should dismiss our negotiating


position. The Premier League is widely admired. The biggest sport,


followed all around the world. As with our European position, we can


negotiate and take a leadership point of view. We have to wait for


the legal decisions. But, you know what, FIFA is rotten to the core and


it's got it coming. Do you agree, FIFA rotten to the core? I think it


is an organisation in urgent need of reform. The fact is, it is


unaccountable. I understand there is a New York lawyer called John


Garcia, carrying out an inquiry into FIFA. Anybody who saw the


allegations in the Sunday Times would be saying, extend your inquiry


into what happened in Qatar. It was always very, very surprising that a


country which has got temperatures in the summer of 40 degrees gets a


summer competition. Frankly, suggestions you can air conditioned


football stadiums, ludicrous! FIFA is an organisation that appears, to


me, to become Pisi unaccountable. I hope that the glare of publicity


they have will lead to an investigation. One brief thing? Are


we strong enough to stand up to all this corruption? Match fixing,


European whatnot... Aren't Britain's strong enough? You're talking about


free trade, we can't deal with anybody. We are the best, or used to


be. Someone fight for us! Someone fight for us. What we wanted someone


to fight for us? A government strong enough. Stephen Jones. When


considering the Welsh Assembly's poor track record, is it wise they


may be offered further powers by Westminster? This goes to the very


heart of devolution. Scotland is being offered, if they vote no, huge


extra powers. This question is if the poor track record of the Welsh


Assembly means it is wise to offer future powers. We have the Wales


Bill going through Parliament at the moment. It will be giving the Welsh


Assembly the power to hold a referendum on whether or not they


should have income tax raising powers. I think that is a good


thing. I think it's a good thing for several reasons. First, it will


bring accountability into the Welsh Assembly for the first time. So far,


the assembly government has just been the recipient of money from


Westminster, which means it is in the wonderful position of


complaining about not getting enough money from Westminster and, at the


same time, not being accountable for the way the money is raised. For the


first time, the party standing in assembly elections will have to say


what they will do with the money that they raised directly from the


taxpayers. I think that is a sign of maturity in government. I actually


believe, also, it would be good for Wales. If they are wise, they will


call that referendum on the basis that they will reduce the basic rate


of tax. I think that, again, would show maturity on the part of the


Welsh Assembly. It would show that they were willing to take a punt at


making Wales a more competitive place. One of the big problems it


has had is that is not being competitive. That would give Wales a


little competitive edge. Stephen Jones's question started considering


the Welsh Assembly's poor track record? I don't agree it has had a


poor track record. Like any government you could do better. One


thing I am jealous of, that I would like in my constituency, Jobs Growth


Wales, it has been phenomenal and getting young people back to work.


80% of young people in private-sector jobs have gone on to


a proper job, and higher levels for graduates. We desperately need, I


desperately want something in England and I want it in my


constituency. So I don't agree it has got a poor track record. I have


always believed in, you know, giving power back as close to people as


possible. I think Labour is the party of devolution. We have


delivered it, we want to go further. I think it needs to go down further


as well, not just down to the different nation states, in England


to city regions, but right down to communities. Do you think they


should have tax-raising powers as well? We said there should be tax


varying powers. You didn't initially, you didn't want


devolution. We've been very clear. You been far from clear! We said


that they should be subject to a referendum on tax varying powers. I


don't want to see a race to the bottom, different countries


undercutting each other. I believe that devolution and further


devolution gives the best of both worlds. Do you agree with what the


Conservative government is offering to Wales? No. You seem a bit


doubtful. It was kind of nnn...yes. Ultimately, I think we are stronger


together. Our policy has been that by the strength of our


together. Our policy has been that by the common endeavour we achieve


more together than alone. That is what I think a strong Welsh


Assembly, backed up by security and strength, has been giving to the


United Kingdom. With Labour's record with health and education in Wales,


and the Coalition Government's record on the economy in England,


should Labour be trusted with any money whatsoever? I would have grave


concerns about the Welsh Assembly having tax-raising powers. Grave


concerns. Maybe it is a lack of confidence in the ability of the


people that are running it. I don't believe that we have first-rate


politicians running the Welsh Assembly. If I was running for


politics, I would want to be in Whitehall, not the Welsh Assembly. I


think most of the better MPs would be there. We now have four levels of


government. It's a fact, when I was growing up, you had Whitehall, you


had local councils. Now we have the Welsh Assembly and we have Europe.


It's no coincidence that our levels of taxation have gone up, up and up.


More waste. It is more waste, thank you for that. I believe United we


stand, divided we fall. It does concern me that Scotland looked like


they are heading for independence. I think the Commonwealth games being


held in Scotland, the Ryder Cup being held in Scotland, the 200th


anniversary of Bannockburn, they will play Braveheart on the


television the night before the vote and I think it is doomed.


I do find it slightly strange that Welsh Labour boast about the number


of jobs they have created for young people. Actually, a lot of those


jobs have gone to young people who could have got a better job


straightaway if they had better education. If you look at Welsh


education, Wales and England have the same potential, yet they have


vastly different public services. The amount of education that Nev has


to give some of his employees just to get them to work, it is shopping


they don't arrive at his call centre with better education from the


schools they are given. I think it is a public tragedy. -- shocking.


Again, that is an ardent for accountability. If the Welsh


government are having to raise taxes, directly from the people of


Wales, they are going to be answerable to the people of Wales


for the money is spent. If they are policing poor education results,


which they are, and declining education results, they will have to


explain themselves. The woman up there, at the back. Wales is seen as


the poor man in the UK. How, by raising taxes, if Wales has ability


to raise taxes in Wales, how are we going to lose that stigma of being


the poor man in the UK? You, sir. I am a GP, at the chalk face of the


Health Service in North Wales. People at the Health Service are


working extremely hard. I dread to have more devolution to Wales as it


stands. You already have full power, autonomous control of the health


economy. You spent 15 minutes slagging each other off. You want to


increase taxes to Wales. We have a major recruitment programme. We are


nearly in crisis bringing GPs to Wales. How are we going to bring


them if we are paying more tax? Nobody is proposing more tax. Lets


get real, we are not going to get lower taxes in Wales. The proposal


in the Wales Bill is that the assembly takes responsible as he


fought taxes, which are now going to London. It is not more tax, it is


who takes the tax. Out of that, the Welsh Assembly will then be able to


borrow some money and be able to improve the M4, the M5. You may


borrow the tax, but you have to pay it back. You will increase tax if


you get those powers. I think Labour are a bit iffy about this. Of


course, Labour will then be the government that has to take


responsibility for raising this tax and spending it, and for accounting


to you and the other people in Wales as to what they have done with it. I


think Labour feel quite comfortable with the situation they are in at


the moment, where they get large lumps of money from London and don't


have to account for it. One of the reasons that local Government in


England has been stocked with some less than impressive councillors,


not across the board, obviously, but in the same way you feel some of


your Assembly representatives are unimpressive s so much power was


taken away from them. By giving local representatives an opportunity


to choose what decisions are made in their area, that is how you


encourage people into Government. They will have a sense of power and


not just about bins. Having witnessed the Welsh Assembly's


ability to waste money, I think if they are given more, if they are


given any tax-raising powers, all it will do is cost every person in


Wales a lot more money. APPLAUSE


We leave it there. A question now from Rob Maximus, please.


Hello, everyone. Nice name. I like it too!


Get on with it! ? Is it right to exchange prisoners with the Taliban


or any terrorist group? Of course the American President has


exchanged a Sergeant for five Taliban members.


Isabel Hardman? Well, I think the mantra that you


don't leave a soldier behind is clearly very important in this


situation. I think also the problem is that there's a huge fear about


who's being sent back as part of this exchange.


And also about the circumstances in which this soldier who is being


brought back actually disappeared. There are allegations he deserted.


Do you mean he could have been left there? Not at all. The point


President Obama made was you don't leave a soldier behind even if he


has deserted. The point about whether his return should be


celebrated in his home State. He is still someone's son who should come


home. What do you think about the rightness of exchanging? I think it


is a hugely difficult choice, but then choices in foreign policy


always are very difficult. There's no, I don't want to say there's no


purity in foreign policy, but you cannot make these simple purist


decisions that you have to be able to negotiate with different groups.


Were the Republicans right to say he had broken an agreement, that the


White House would consult Congress before doing deals like this? I'll


be honest, I don't know enough about the situation. I will not pass


judgment. I'll have some humility here and say I don't know enough.


OK, Liz Kendall? I think overall, there are rightful concerns about


doing deals with terrorists because you don't know who you will be


letting free. I know that if I was in the soldier's family though, I


would be thanking the Lord and thanking President Obama that my


son, my husband, my brother, was coming home. I don't know the


background of who the people were who were returned, who danger r


threat they posed. We -- danger or threat they posed. On issues like


that, the security of your country and not putting your countrymen at


risk by terrorists would be the overwhelmling thing. I think


anything to get our boys and girls home. We would have had a lot of


intelligence from these people. We will put them back. Put them under


surveillance. Technology these days. We can see where they are going. Get


our boys and girls back while we can.


OK and you, Sir. I think that ultimately we'll have


to discuss issues with the Taliban, anyway. They will not go away. They


are going to, the Americans, as far as I understand, are already talking


to the Taliban. They have opened an embassy in Qatar. So, you can't just


make a decision like that and separate it out.


Every conflict is going to be resolved in discussion and dialogue,


otherwise you carry on killing each other. It is a difficult moral


issue. Liz says if it was my son, then I would certainly be concerned


to get him back. The problem is when you start to negotiate with


terrorists, frequently the result can be that you encourage further


terrorism. If the terrorist group know they can swam swap some of


their own members for an American or British soldier, that will encourage


them to kidnap another British or American soldier. So, it is an


extremely difficult, moral, decision. My own feeling is it


extremely dangerous to negotiate with terrorists. I would start the


whole consideration with, whose other life


whole consideration with, whose other am I imperilling as a re--


imperilling as a result of that. The White House had broke an pledge and


shouldn't have done it? I think the White House should certainly have


further discussions. It is a hard decision. One


understands from, at a human level why one wants that prisoner


released. Maybe you should think again.


Hywel. Robin Cook said he wanted a moral fld policy. I think that was


attractive at the time. Rather unrealistic. That is how it proved


to be. The reality is that Government talks the other side the


other time. The Thatcher Government when they were swearing they were


not talking to the IRA of course were talking to them through back


channels. That is the reality of relations like that. I think in that


situation we must make sure that our hands are as clean as possible and I


am afraid that our intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan means that we


don't have very clean hands. APPLAUSE


I agree if it was my son I would want him home under any


circumstances. As a businessman, 5-1 is not a very good deal. I think it


is also worth remembering, maybe because I am old I remember these


things, but the first bill that President Obama passed when he first


got in was, he released lots of prisoners from Guantanamo Bay.


And there was nobody coming back this way.


Or America's way. He must like releasing prisoners. I don't


understand everything, but that one baffled me.


Say again. You say 5-1 for a soldier. Israel paid 1,000-1 for one


of theirs. They have the same attitude, we must


get our boys back. It is a very difficult answer. Your wider point,


that in the end it is always a political settlement that solves


these problems. It is never ultimately a military, it is a


political settlement that is required, is absolutely spot-on.


Alan Morgan, please. Should it be the telephone provider


that blocks unwanted calls from sales organisations?


This strikes home here! I will not come to you first. We will point out


that yours is the business that makes cold calls to people and they


have to go to their telephone and it is not somebody they want to speak


to. It is a recorded message from somebody or somebody they have never


heard of. David Jones, the do you think it would be good if it could


be banned and telephone providers could block these type of calls? I


have spent a bit of time this week telephone canvassing for a


by-election. I can say I know how Nev feels. Everybody is delighted to


get the telephone call. I think people can make their own decisions


if they wish to do so, then they can sign up to the Telephone Preference


Service. I know a lot of people actually like


having cold calls, believe it or not. Nev told me earlier on how


delighted they are. He would say, that wouldn't he!


What do you think? I obviously have a vested interest in this one.


Perhaps you don't want to answer it. It was quite a shock to find out


from David earlier on that, with the by-election how much telly


canvassing they do, when there are certain politicians trying to nobble


our industry totally. That was, I thought a little bit hypercritical.


But the industry employs over one million people. What do you want to


do? Do you want to put them out of work? Do you want to export more


jobs. Our factories have gone. Do you want to export these as well?


APPLAUSE Were you fined once for call cold


gssing? Yes -- call colding? Yes. Are you in favour of being called?


Personally I hate being cold called. I agree with David Jones, I have a


brain. I can tell people I am not interested. The problem I have is


the cleverness of the electronics of these companies, that I have had, I


don't know, 60/70 texts, phone calls and e-mails about a loan I have


applied for, that I have never applied for. I have to go through


and the number changes every time, so that every single timevy to reply


to the text -- time, I have to reply to the text to say, "Stop." It is


fine if I talk to one company and say, no thanks. But the fact it is


60-70 different numbers coming through, I have to keep blocking


them. It is the pizza leaflets through my door... This is not a


question about pizza leaflets. I wonder what the hit rate is. I am


amazed you manage to make a profit for this. It is not so bad. I have


never bought a pizza from one of those leaflets. This is telephone


calls! Nev Wilshire, what do you think? --


Hywel Williams, what do you think? When they phone me up and say about


some windows, I say, put them in. What about a kitchen. We like toast


in our house. Life insurance, insured up to my ears. The calls


tail off because they know I am not a good mark. Actually, I have got


nothing against people trying to go out and sell, make money, run their


businesses, a lot of our economy is built on the back of good sales


people. I get annoyed. I would never of course shout and swear and leave


a message or anything like. That I am more irritated by US e-mail spam.


I can not bear that. They are of try... Does your telephone ring in


the house just as you are getting a cup of coffee and the dog is in the


way and you have not shaved yet... No, you probably don't shave every


morning, like I do! You are in the middle of do other


things. -- doing other things. The only


people who have my land line is my mum and my friend, Sam. They know


not to ring unless it is on a Sunday. If I don't know who it is on


my phone, I don't pick it up. Yes, you have spoken already. I want


to go to somebody who has not spoken. Yes, the woman over there on


the right. Isn't it true the TPS only works in the UK. It does not


screen out calls from other countries. You can ask this one and


then we can stop. To be honest, I don't know.


If the Government made it illegal for us to cold call in this country


then it would not be illegal from me to call you from South Africa or


inds ya. We have to -- India. We have to stop.


inds ya. We have to -- India. We have We'll be in King's Lynn next


week. We have Iain Duncan Smith for the Tories. We have Ian Hislop for


Private Eye. And the week after that, we are giving Away, by public


demand for a football match, between Japan and Greece.


Unmissable. But we are back the week after that,


in Wolverhampton. So, if you would like to take part in either


programme, apply on our website, the site is on the screen there or call


us: We will cold call you back and see


if you can come. If you are listening on 5 Live there is more on


Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to our panel. To all of you who came


here tonight to take part in this programme. Until next Thursday, from


all of us, good night.


David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Llandudno in Wales, with Conservative secretary of state for Wales David Jones MP, Labour's shadow minister for care and older people Liz Kendall MP, Plaid Cymru's Hywel Williams MP, assistant editor of The Spectator Isabel Hardman and the businessman Nev Wilshire, star of BBC3's The Call Centre.

Download Subtitles