Browse content similar to 10/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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this is our last programme before the referendum on Scottish | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
independence in September. Rather than here, as we have many times in | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
recent programmes, the voice of politicians on this issue, we have | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
chosen tonight, for once, to hear from the laity. Welcome to Question | :00:23. | :00:32. | |
Time. And good evening to you at home, to | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
our audience who will be putting the questions to the panel, who do not | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
know what will be put to them. They are the songwriter and lead singer | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
of the band Deacon Blue, Ricky Ross, former Scotland and British Lions | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
rugby player Scott Hastings, newspaper columnist Joan Burnie, who | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
was with the Daily Record as an agony aunt for the last 35 years, | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
and the businessman Alan Savage, who runs the engineering group Orion, | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
and is one of the biggest donors to the Better Together campaign. | :01:06. | :01:18. | |
OK, let's have a question first from Andrew Smith. Will the referendum be | :01:19. | :01:30. | |
decided by votes from the heart or from the head? From the heart or | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
from the head, Ricky Ross? Well, tonight, we will have a lot of stuff | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
from the head, I hope, and we will talk it round. But people will go | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
into a polling booth on September the 18th. And I am pretty sure when | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
they go in, there will still be a lot of heart stuff going on. | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
Ultimately, you will have to make a choice of what country you want to | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
live in. It is very interesting. We can do the facts and the figures, | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
but I do think there is a lot of stuff about the heart. It is not | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
about feeling Scottish, not about feeling some false sense of | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
nationalistic pride and excluding people. It is a heart that says we | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
want a more just, fairer society, and we want a democratic result for | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
Scotland. APPLAUSE | :02:24. | :02:33. | |
Scott Hastings. I am in the fortunate position of | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
having represented my country and you cannot get a more proud Scotsman | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
than myself. I played 65 times for my country and also have the ability | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
to play for the British Lions, a select team from Ireland, Wales, | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
England and Scotland, who go to the southern hemisphere nations once | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
every four years. That was very, very special, almost | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
every four years. That was very, moment. Just as Sir Chris Hoy | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
competing in the Olympic Games. But I want to be part of something | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
really special. We have politicians telling us we have to be independent | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
to be a great country. I don't agree. We are already a great | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
country. We have outstanding education, outstanding tourism, our | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
financial services industry employs over 200,000 people. I travel the | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
world over and to expats, we are a proud country. We have given a lot | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
to the world. Our renewable energy, wave technology, wind power, there | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
is a lot of entrepreneurship in Scotland and that is what I am proud | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
to be part of. I am also proud to be part of Great Britain and the United | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
Kingdom. APPLAUSE | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
Is it an issue of heart and head for you, a choice between heart and | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
head? It is both. I would agree with some | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
of what Scott has said, but I would say we are a great country despite | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
being in the union, not because of it. Joan Burnie. Can you call it | :04:02. | :04:10. | |
great when the differential between rich and poor becomes bigger every | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
single day? For me, it is both my head and my heart. My head asks me | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
why, of all the countries in the entire | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
why, of all the countries in the only ones who | :04:23. | :04:23. | |
why, of all the countries in the thick to run their own affairs? This | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
has puzzled me for years. It is not that I am anti-English. Simon | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
has puzzled me for years. It is not sooner England gets rid of Scotland | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
the better, so thanks for that, Simon. It is a head and they heart | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
thing. I think it is a different country. I have worked in England. I | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
have many English friends. country. I have worked in England. I | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
say that but I genuinely do. England is also a great country, although it | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
could be a greater country, and Scotland could be a great country. | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
But I think they could both be greater apart. But how are we | :05:03. | :05:14. | |
supposed to make our minds up? All the decisions and all | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
supposed to make our minds up? All so on are going to be made after we | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
have made a decision. I don't know where the money is coming from for | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
my family. I don't know how I'm going to budget. With what? How | :05:26. | :05:35. | |
often? How do we actually know? Scotland is the 14th richest country | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
in the world. We have the resources. We have more GDP per head than | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
either France or Japan, which might interest people, or not. There is | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
enough money to go round, but the way now it is divided between rich | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
and poor is wrong. I want a fairer society. I personally think the | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
Westminster system is broken. We see what goes on in Westminster. The | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
only way forward is for there to be some sort of change. And the only | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
change, as far as I can see, that is happening will be with this | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
referendum, which will at least give us our own parliament, but will also | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
give England their own country back. Alan Savage, the argument that Joan | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
Burnie is putting is about equality. But she have a point? I would like | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
to address where the questions started, about head and heart. If a | :06:29. | :06:37. | |
prospective government, the SNP right eight home of 700 pages and | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
there is one page on finance, financial issues, and the rest is on | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
the heart, it is obvious which way they want the campaign to go. -- if | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
they write a book of 700 pages. They want it based on the heart. If you | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
think about the facts and history of the union, it is a no-brainer that | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
we are better off together. The man up there. I am born in Inverness. I | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
am a passionate Highlanders and I love Scotland and I will take a | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
stand to keep the United Kingdom together. I will give my life for my | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
country, as my grandfather did in the First World War, and his | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
brother, Charlie. Highland Regiment, British Army. I am British forever. | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
We will never, never change. We will keep our union together in the name | :07:32. | :07:40. | |
of Jesus. Thank you. Ricky Ross. Lets go back to your question. Go | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
back to him first. Which point? You choose. You have a good, passionate | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
heart, and the question was head or heart. Allen answered that it is not | :07:54. | :08:04. | |
part of the White Paper. The heart stuff is what John is talking about. | :08:05. | :08:14. | |
That is about compassion. What kind of country do you want to live in? | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
Do you want a country which has its benefits cut, which is marginalising | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
people? This is a rich country. I drove up tonight from my home city | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
of Dundee, through the beautiful land of Perthshire, up to Inverness | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
and I thought, this is an amazing place to live. It has so much going | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
for it. But people at the bottom end are feeling the cups of George | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
Osborne's budget, and that should not be the case. -- the cups. That | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
is where the heart comes in. Build a fairer, better Scotland. | :08:53. | :09:01. | |
Can you answer the point the lady in the front made, if you remember? You | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
made the point that you are confused. She did not say she was | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
confused, but that she did not know what was going to happen. I think | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
you have to take things by stages. We are talking about the democratic | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
process. We are only asking one question in Scotland of each other. | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
Your view is as important as mine, yes or no. And then where do you | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
want to take it. Then you have to make the decision. Why don't you | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
then make the decision about what kind of country you want to live in? | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
But first of all, make the decision to look after your own country. Joan | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
is right. Why would we not do that best remark you have already said | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
you have driven through the most beautiful countryside. I want people | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
get out there and make the country great, people to be educated, | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
inspired to get out onto that landscape and encourage people to to | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
our country and build that entrepreneurism. We don't have to be | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
independent to do that, we can do it right now. The man with the | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
spectacles, and then you in the orange. If you take the yes vote as | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
a businessman, and you take the electorate as a bank manager, the | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
businessman goes to the bank manager and asks for an awful lot of money | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
to expand his business. The bank manager says, what sort of currency | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
are you going to use? The businessman says, well, we think we | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
are going to have the pound. OK. Where is your market? Well, we think | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
it is in Europe. Right, this is a great business plan, we think. What | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
about security? You are going to disarm the nuclear deterrent. That | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
means your new premises, with a lot of equipment in it will have no | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
CCTV, no locks on the doors, and you are going to have it wide open. You | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
are leaving this island race as a soft target at the top. Joan, | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
perhaps you would like to answer that. This island race, have you | :11:10. | :11:17. | |
looked at what has happened to this island race's Armed Forces over the | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
past few years? Have you looked at what will happen if we keep the | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
nuclear deterrent? ?4 billion every year to keep it running. But if you | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
read the paper on it last week, you would also note that that would mean | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
that the Armed Forces would have to be cut town ever more. Why do you | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
want to join NATO? You don't have to be a nuclear power to join NATO. I | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
think you would have known that by now. To go back to your point about | :11:51. | :11:58. | |
economics, economics is part of the head part. It seems to me that if we | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
look at all these people who are telling us how disastrous it is and | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
how poor we are and how the infrastructure of the country will | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
collapse, we then look at everything previous chancellors have said about | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
the economy. Did any of them foresee 2008? When George Osborne became | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
Chancellor he said that growth in the UK would be, I think, 1.8. It | :12:26. | :12:33. | |
was 0.8. Nobody ever knows exactly what is going to happen with | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
economics. Stuff happens. But you cannot make stuff happen unless you | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
have some charge of it, and we do not. You are saying he tries to make | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
stuff up and it doesn't happen, and if we had charge of it we could make | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
stuff happen. But you wouldn't know what would happen? Perhaps I am not | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
putting myself very well. That's it is my accident. That is a | :12:58. | :13:05. | |
condescension to far! Stuff happens, but you have to control it to be | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
able to guide that, and we have no control. I find it a bit insulting | :13:09. | :13:15. | |
from Ricky and Joan to say that compassion only belongs to the yes | :13:16. | :13:25. | |
campaign. The inference was given that we wanted to be a compassionate | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
country. I am also wanting to live in a country that is compassionate, | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
and I don't think you can blame Westminster for everything. But I | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
would also like to say that the head is really important. To know what | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
our finances are going to be. Today the office of budget responsibility | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
announced that the low -- latest forecast for North Sea oil revenue | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
will be 25% less than they predicted a couple of years ago. So economics | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
change all the time as well, and not facing up to what could be is very | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
important. I am pleased you brought up that report. Just wait a second. | :14:02. | :14:09. | |
Mr Hastings, your rhetoric is very heart-warming. However, there is no | :14:10. | :14:18. | |
point at which you point towards a much more socially equitable and | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
just society. And I think it's only by becoming an independent nation | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
that determines its own future that will be possible. | :14:29. | :14:37. | |
APPLAUSE And your reply? You spoke about the | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
specific report that came out today which is very interesting. | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
Particularly interesting to me because, as you can see, I'm very | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
old. Now, I remember back in the 1970s when my late husband was | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
actually an MP and also an economist. There was a report came | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
out about the resources in the North Sea and we were told | :15:01. | :15:02. | |
out about the resources in the North all be done and dusted by 1990 that | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
out about the resources in the North there was very little oil left, so | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
go away and think again. Now, the amount of oil which is left, in | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
monetary value now, is amount of oil which is left, in | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
same as the amount of oil which had been taken out. Are you saying the | :15:19. | :15:29. | |
economics stack up? Yes. Why don't we know what currency we are going | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
economics stack up? Yes. Why don't to be using in Scotland? Because | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
unfortunately, there was not proper discussion. Complex economy, we need | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
a currency, we all agree on that. If you want a just and fair society, | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
that costs money, so we see that the outgoings are ?63.7 billion and the | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
incomings are ?63.7 billion, happy days break even, but if the oil | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
revenues or tax revenues drop, the tax revenue doesn't work, so you | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
cannot run a society on the heart and passion | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
cannot run a society on the heart got to run it with sound, economic | :16:03. | :16:12. | |
principles. If you ever ask Salmond or Sturgeon about the currency, it's | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
evasive and if you don't let us use the pound, we are not going to take | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
our share of the national debt. What way is that to start off a fairer | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
more just country when you are not going to pay your debts? But on that | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
point, do you accept the OBR report that the value of oil is declining, | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
or do you think Joan has got it right by saying you can't trust the | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
forecasts because they are always being made one way or the other. You | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
are a businessman? Oil is a finite item. The more you take out, the | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
less there is of it, this was it's got to go up in price. But to | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
justify a whole basis of running a complex, modern society on whether | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
oil is $15 or $150 a barrel, somebody has to make an estimate and | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
thest mates that the SNP make is that everything will be rosy and | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
wonderful. -- the estimates. What is the currency going to be, what will | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
it be? How can I run a business across the world with 100 different | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
bank accounts if I don't know where I'm starting from? Ricky? We know | :17:23. | :17:31. | |
the currency will be the pound. We know that. That's a fact. What do | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
you know that we don't? Let me take this woman's point, a good point. | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
You can wind back the tape when you get home, but I didn't say that. | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
Neither did Joan. We said we decide what country we want to be, I'm not | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
saying we have a genetic natural tendency to be more compassionate | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
than anyone else, but we make the decision of what country we want to | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
be. Surely the country, or I'm saying the kind of country I want to | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
be is the country that's not heading down the same road as the UK's | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
heading at the moment where the NHS, for example, south of the border, is | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
being taken apart, where benefit cuts are forcing people to go to | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
food banks. We haven't even discussed that yet. One of the most | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
obscene things about modern day Scotland is the fact that all of | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
what Scott said was true, we are a very wealthy country, but people are | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
not experiencing that and they need to experience it. | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
Just the gentleman was explaining about social inequality there. I | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
think there are issues in every society between rich and poor, for | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
want of a better word. I think we've got to address that and we address | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
that through initiatives and volunteering and community, | :19:02. | :19:03. | |
community is so important, we live in the high larnedz in Inverness, | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
there is a community here. If that can be rolled back into cities, | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
there's a potential solution -- Highlands. The reality is, we are | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
living on tough times. I keep an eye on what I spend every moment of | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
every day. A few years ago, I was made redundant, we took a pay cut to | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
try to keep that business alive and we have seen the strikes down south | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
and in England today from public sector workers and I do sympathise | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
with them, but at the end of the day, we are in tough times, we have | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
to just tighten the purse strick strings a wee bit. | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
You had a point on this, didn't you? Do you want to take it? What is your | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
view about what Ricky said? Almost a million people had to use food banks | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
last year while the 104 richest in our country shared a wealth of ?301 | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
billion and that quite frankly is disgusting. | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
That figure alone is enough to vote yes because I don't want to be a | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
part of any country that produces such economic disparity. | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
APPLAUSE The cost of separation will be | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
really high. We'd have diminishing oil reserves, the reason that the | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
union came into existence in the first place was because Scotland | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
went bankrupt and was bought over by England basically. I just didn't see | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
any positive side to it. What do you make of Rory's argument that he | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
doesn't want to be part of a country where there's a growing disparity of | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
wealth and that this would be how it is if Scotland is independent? You | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
would have to leave Scotland because situations occur in an independent | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
Scotland. It would make no difference? I don't think it would. | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
Can I say one final word on the oil? Scotland would still be a wealthy | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
country without the oil. Correct. I've never ever understood why this | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
must be the only country in the world which has found oil off its | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
coast. Somehow or other it's seen as a terrible thing to have happened. | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
Look at Norway and what is in their oil fund now. They were sensible. | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
They accept that the North Sea was going to bring a bonanza. What did | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
we do with it? We wasted it. I think the reserves should not be wasted | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
and should go towards... APPLAUSE You, | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
Sir? I can't see what colour your shirt is. I appreciate what you are | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
saying, but I've done the same positively around Scotland. But you | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
have got a Mr Darling in your camp, the most negative campaigner and | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
when he was Chancellor, he couldn't foresee the banking crisis. Why | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
should I listen to your rhetoric? Listen, I can understand that. | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
APPLAUS If you look at the scan doll over RBS, HBOS, it was badly | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
managed, you can then tarnish the brush and look at Gordon Brown and | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
Scotsmen were getting hammered rightly so because the banking | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
industry lost a huge amount of credible. That's gone now. It's time | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
to move forward and moves are being put in place with proper officialdom | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
to move that forward. That's part and parcel of the future debate that | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
that should be an ongoing dialogue because we have to put the trust in | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
people's savings and investments and bed in better together, we can do | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
that. What do you think? In response to | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
what the chap was saying about it not being a viable business | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
proposal, are there not lots of businesses that start from a dream | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
and passion and are based up on that dream and become a success? Who is | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
to say Scotland can't become one of those successes? | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
APPLAUS Answer that because he built up a | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
business I think he walked into a bank and said, I feed to -- I think | :23:06. | :23:15. | |
if he walked into the bank and said I have a passion and a dream, can I | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
borrow some money. You wouldn't get it. You'd have to go to the IMF. I | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
can't see how you are going to have a credit rating based on a situation | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
where you are not prepared to pay your share of the national debt. | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
That was the kick off point, if you don't get the pound, you are not | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
going to pay the share of the national debt. I can't see a credit | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
agency accepted that you have defaulted on debts already, then | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
lending you money. Are you saying an independent Scotland would get broke | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
straightaway? No. What are you saying then? We'd find it difficult | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
to borrow money and the money we borrowed would be at a high interest | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
rate and I'm answering the first question which was if I go to a | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
bank, I can build Saux Cescful business - it doesn't work that way | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
-- build a successful business. One wage out of 70 on finance is | :24:11. | :24:18. | |
beyond belief. Let's give Alan some detail, shall we? Yes. To live in | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
Scotland is to be in the top 20 of the wealthiest countries in the | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
world. To live in Scotland is to be per Head of Population, better off | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
than someone living in Italy, France or the rest of the United Kingdom. | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
Maybe surprisingly you are better off than someone living in Japan. | :24:40. | :24:47. | |
The credit rating for Scotland - and these are recent figures - they are | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
not the yes campaign figures, they come from the Financial Times, from | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
a report in February. Scotland is a very wealthy country. It's | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
potentially a huge country. As Joan said, when we talk about oil, oil is | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
perhaps the last thing that we talk about because we have got so many | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
other resources. We have a very strong food and drinks industry, we | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
have a very, very strong education system. We have one of the best | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
educated adult population in Europe. That's an incredible resource. I was | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
talking to people today at university when they were talking | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
about bringing people in, people certain industries looking for | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
skilled workers. We have skilled workers. We have people. We have | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
talent. That is also a resource and it makes us a very rich country. | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
But, we and lots of people watching this programme tonight are not | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
seeing that, not feeling that. Unfortunately, welfare and a number | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
of other things are still controlled from Westminster. | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
APPLAUSE I would like to make a point really. | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
I think that what Ricky said earlier was interesting about being a more | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
fair and just society. At the moment, it's the Scottish Government | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
that actually health is devolved through Scottish Government and in | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
the Highlands, we've got seven different companies running in care | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
services which are not public companies. We've also got a | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
situation where there's a huge carer crisis here. An old lady | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
situation where there's a huge carer Huntington's disease living in a | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
flat which is not fit for living in and she hasn't had any carers for | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
two weeks. A lady here in a hospital has been in hospital for three | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
months because she can't get out because there are no carers. If you | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
are saying you want to be more fair and just a society, the SNP have got | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
control of health now... You are absolutely right, but... | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
APPLAUSE First of all, I'm not from the SNP | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
and I don't think Joan is either, none of us on the panel here is | :26:54. | :27:01. | |
party people. We are discussing yes or no. But let's take a hook at what | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
is whatting to the Health Service. The point is a very simple one. You | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
keep saying only if Scotland is independent will we get fair | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
treatment. She's saying Scotland has control over health and doesn't have | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
control? We have control over health within the budget we are given. More | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
money available for health, she is saying. But when the vote, if the | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
vote was new, I'll tell you something, the Barnet formula would | :27:28. | :27:34. | |
change hugely and suddenly we'd be in a different health regime than we | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
are at the moment. At the moment, we still have a National Health | :27:39. | :27:40. | |
Service. I would be interested in people's comments down south. A lot | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
of people don't believe they are seeing a Health Service down south. | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
It's a market-run machine with the NHS logo there. | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
What is your reaction? I think when you talk about a market-run NHS in | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
England, right now NHS Highland is modelling in the Health Service on | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
Toyota. They have actually sent people to look at how Toyota runs | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
its business and they are going to run the NHS, or thinking about | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
running the NHS on that model. That gentleman? The person at the | :28:22. | :28:29. | |
very back there. I would like to ask Alan Savage how much research is | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
really done. He talks about credit worthiness and the people that know | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
about this have said Scotland would get a AAA rating so it doesn't seem | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
to suggest that you have read it to it. The UBS report out today said | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
to suggest that you have read it to it. The UBS report out today they | :28:46. | :28:47. | |
wouldn't so you can look at different articles that suit your | :28:48. | :28:55. | |
argument. It isn't clear cut. You've got to off with the currency and if | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
Scotland is that rich, why doesn't it have its own currency, I'm | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
baffled by it. I actually think that Scotland could. Good idea. You at | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
the back there? It doesn't matter what currency we use. Currency is | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
only a contract for exchange of goods. So we could use Bitcoins or | :29:14. | :29:22. | |
whatever, it doesn't matter. APPLAUSE | :29:23. | :29:24. | |
You've been hearing all this? Do you have any reaction to what you have | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
heard? Yes. I want to say this. 31 million people of the United Kingdom | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
pay into the Exchequer. Only 4.2 million people in Scotland could pay | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
for that, that's for the Health Service, that's for all the social | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
services. And the people that suffer most in the country are the poorest. | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
I'm concerned for the poor! Understand! Along with Gordon Brown, | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
I can say this - Scotland can lead and will lead the United Kingdom. I | :29:56. | :30:04. | |
used to play rugby for an academy and I know how never to give up. | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
They said to me, you'll never get in the team and I said "watch me! " And | :30:09. | :30:20. | |
I will give my own life if I want to keep this country together. Let's | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
take P- one more question. Bruce Nielson, please? Is there P- such a | :30:26. | :30:34. | |
thing as independence in Europe? The UK's already subject to the faceless | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
bureaucrats of Brussels, all we have got to do with independence is miss | :30:40. | :30:49. | |
out the middle man? Is there such a thing as independence in Europe? | :30:50. | :30:57. | |
When the Better Together campaign were going on about how we had not | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
been allowed into Europe, various people said, actually, I think we | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
will because they will not turn us down, given how assets. But I have | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
noticed that as UKIP has risen, the Tory party does not talk so much now | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
about Scotland being booted out of Europe, because it might be seen on | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
the other side of the border as an absolute plus that we weren't going | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
to be in Europe any longer. I think we do need some form of European | :31:26. | :31:33. | |
Parliament. I think it could do with some reform. I certainly sink that | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
macro think some of the things they do are crazy. But not quite as crazy | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
as some in my profession would have us believe. I think if there was a | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
referendum tomorrow there might be people who would vote with their | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
heart rather than their head, and they would say we should leave it. I | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
think the European Union will enjoy off. I would be interested to hear | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
what Mr Savage thinks about leaving the union, because I understand most | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
business people would be more than happy to stay in it, whether | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
Scotland is independent, or whether we are together. What is your view? | :32:10. | :32:19. | |
I am not sure what she asked. Would you like to be in or out of the | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
European market I would like to be in the European market. The question | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
is whether there could be genuine independence if you are in the | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
European Union. Without labouring the point on currency, and the | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
gentleman who is going to use the Groat, you are not going to go very | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
heart -- very far on holiday. If you look at the currency issue, if you | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
are using the pound and the Bank of England is going to set the interest | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
rate, by definition you are not an independent country because somebody | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
else is setting the very tool you use to regulate the economy, | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
interest rates, so you are not independent. What it's -- what is | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
your view? I do not think we should have dumped the Commonwealth. What | :33:09. | :33:17. | |
about the Empire? That was the whole point. I was able to vote in the | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
referendum we had into Europe, and I felt at the time, actually I voted | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
we should not go in, because I felt strongly that the Tory party saw | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
that they would go into Europe and take it over and that would replace | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
their union, they would be kingpins in Brussels. When they got there and | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
the French and Germans said no, they did not like it. I do not think | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
there is such a thing as true independence without leaving the UK, | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
leaving Europe, getting completely away from countries like Norway, for | :33:52. | :34:01. | |
example. They are not in the European Union. Are you saying it is | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
a false choice to put to Scotland, to say independent and in the EU? | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
Yes. I would say true independence would be out of the EU. You in the | :34:15. | :34:26. | |
far top row. I think my head and my heart tell me that independence does | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
not mean we have to be out of anything. It does not mean we would | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
stand alone. For me, a personal view, I think it is head and heart. | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
I see that I can be better represented. I can vote for people | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
to be my voice in a Scottish Parliament and to take that voice | :34:44. | :34:45. | |
into Europe, to argue for our interests. I am only 34 but I have | :34:46. | :34:55. | |
been disenfranchised from UK politics, Westminster, for well over | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
ten, 15 years. APPLAUSE | :35:01. | :35:08. | |
This is an opportunity for people like me to engage with politics and | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
get a chance for our voice to be heard, and to feel we have something | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
to offer, to produce, to come up with economic solutions. We want to | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
do that. We want this chance. APPLAUSE | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
We will move away from the independence issue. | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
Just a reminder that you can join the debate by text or Twitter. | :35:33. | :35:44. | |
Let's take a question from another audience member. Are we, as a | :35:45. | :35:55. | |
society, doing enough to protect our children from the people who abuse | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
the power they wield? Are we doing enough to protect our children? My | :36:01. | :36:07. | |
wife was a disclosure carer for her local sports club. There is a lot of | :36:08. | :36:16. | |
work being done at a local community type of level. However, I think your | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
question might be towards looking at Westminster and the recent outrage | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
in terms of missing files and potential paedophilia that went on | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
within the dark rooms of Westminster. That really concerns | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
me. I hope the Metropolitan Police delve down into this case, because I | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
think we have all been really upset with the recent findings and | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
sentencing of Rolf Harris, and of course Cyril Smith, recently. There | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
is an investigation into him. Again, public schools, I understand | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
there are investigations there, and the Roman Catholic education system | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
are being investigated. It is a real concern. | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
are being investigated. It is a real there is a lot of good work being | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
done to protect our youngsters. I would just like to say, why should | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
done to protect our youngsters. I paedophiles be released from prison | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
and given new identities? Should we not know who they are so we can look | :37:15. | :37:22. | |
after our kids? If my paper is to be believed, I | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
read that during the News of the World enquiry there were 200 members | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
of the Metropolitan Police force who were designated as looking into it. | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
This recent one in Westminster, so far there are only 17. Does this | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
sound fair? It sounds like they have already decided to keep it behind | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
closed doors. Joan Burnie, do you agree? I am not sure having an | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
establishment figure heading an enquiry to look into the wrong | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
doings, it is said, of the establishment is necessarily a good | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
thing. I am sure she is an admirable woman and I would say nothing | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
against the former judge. Well, you would, because you have said she is | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
a member of the establishment and would connive in a cover-up, that is | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
what you are implying. I did not say that. I would suggest it is unwise | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
for someone in the establishment to have an examination of the | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
establishment. Because she cannot be objective or because others will | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
think she is not? The perception. But we also have to look at reality. | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
I can speak of a former agony aunt. The reality of child sexual abuse is | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
that we must not forget most of it takes place within the family | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
circle, from family and friends. It is not just within the | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
establishment, within public schools. It is a curse of childhood | :38:51. | :38:57. | |
for children from all backgrounds, not necessarily by MPs and people | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
who are high and mighty. It happens in homes, in towns and villages. And | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
that is what we should remember. We should not get carried away with | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
thinking it only happens in the House of Commons or within the | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
Catholic church or wherever. It is our duty to protect our children and | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
I totally accept what the lady said about the fact that they come out of | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
prison and we do not know where they are. There must be something to do | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
with that, but the overriding thing is to protect our children. Whether | :39:27. | :39:29. | |
this commission will do that, I remain to see. I believe although | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
she is a figure of the establishment, she will use her | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
position to enquire more deeply because of the connection with her | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
brother. To show that she is completely independent. Well, it is | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
a huge question, one that everyone is asking, to go back to your | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
question. I spoke to a friend of mine because I was concerned about | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
this question coming up. Talking to a friend who had worked in social | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
work with children, this is a question of power. It is a question | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
of people wielding inappropriate power and deference to power, people | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
who have a position that they can abuse, literally abuse. And I think | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
this question, the way we are talking earlier about what kind of | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
country wants to live in, surely we want to live in a country that | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
protects its weakest and most vulnerable. We have to get to the | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
bottom of this. Joan is absolutely right. There is huge evidence to | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
show that most abuse happens in families, with people they know, | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
within small areas. But I happen to think we have an awful lot of things | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
wrong in the past, and we need to go back and make amends. The saddest | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
thing about this is that we talk about it and we bring out people in | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
the newspaper, we expose various people, but at the same time there | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
are people who have had abuse done to them who are still hurting, still | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
grieving and still finding it very difficult to move on from something | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
that happened a long, long time ago. And the powerful have got to be made | :41:16. | :41:24. | |
accountable. Just to back up what Ricky has said, one of the ways that | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
a strong society maintains control over these powerful figures is | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
through a free press. It is to be hoped that recent events have meant | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
that the free press in this country is sufficiently strong enough to | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
bring those who bring their power into things like paedophilia. Alan | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
Savage. I agree with Ricky that power corrupts, and people take | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
abuse of power. When they do that with young children, then that is | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
reprehensible. I think you can maybe look at the profile of the people | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
that carry out these acts, and look at ways of maybe spotting them | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
before they do it, taking heed of what they are doing when they do | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
it, and listening to the kids and people that report it and acting | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
more decisively. I think the investigation into it has to be | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
above and beyond anything. It has to be absolutely quick, clear, | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
clinical, and let's get it sorted out and make sure it doesn't happen | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
again in recurring cases. What you make, you said you were of an older | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
generation so you remember the times, of what Norman Tebbit said. | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
He thought there might have been a cover-up because it might have been | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
thought more important in the 1970s to protect the establishment, rather | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
than find wrongdoers. You have no doubt that -- heard the former whip | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
under Ted Heath saying if somebody came in debt, or some sort of | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
trouble with boys, we might try and dampen it down and then they would | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
be our person forever, because they would do what we said. Is that a | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
society you recognise, the way the establishment used to work? You were | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
a journalist. Not only that, but I was married to an MP in the 1970s. I | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
do recognise that that prevailing culture was the way in which | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
Westminster was run, it was very much a male club, and there was a | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
great deal of self protection amongst all parties. I think that in | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
some ways, we didn't want to talk about paedophilia. We didn't want to | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
talk about child abuse. We wanted to brush it under the carpet. And it | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
was not spoken about, so the victims did not speak out and were not | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
believed. I heard what Norman Tebbit said, and I thought he was probably | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
correct about the times in which we live. But that has continued over | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
the years, so that those who perhaps wanted to speak out gradually | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
thought they were not going to be believed. This has gone on and on, | :44:06. | :44:11. | |
and nothing was done. To this day, although the culture has changed, | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
the feeling in those who have been abused has not changed. I agree with | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
what Joan has said, but here is another thing. I think it is | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
important in all of this that hysteria does not break out. When | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
hysteria breaks out over this, you end up with people marching through | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
housing estates and throwing people out, and getting the wrong person. | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
Suddenly we had a whole storm last weekend of what someone might have | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
said. Get to the truth, find it out, and let's not have panic because I | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
don't think that is going to help vulnerable children, or people who | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
have been abused. And that, we all think, I am sure, is what we are | :44:52. | :45:03. | |
trying to do. Obviously no-one wants to create panic but the law needs to | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
change because right now it's not illegal not to tell someone that you | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
suspect a child is being abused. You could be a teacher and suspect but | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
you can keep it to yourself and that's kind of where the problem | :45:17. | :45:18. | |
comes, eight out of ten are abused that's kind of where the problem | :45:19. | :45:27. | |
Another question. I would like to take a couple more before I finish. | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
Let's deal with this one from Robert Smith, please? Emergency data laws | :45:33. | :45:39. | |
are being rushed through unchallenged. Is it a step towards a | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
big brother society? This is the news today that the Government, | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
coalition and opposition are going ahead with the law so that phone | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
records can be tapped as a result of the EU saying they can't be? What do | :45:54. | :46:02. | |
you make of that? I used the term drawing a line and it's where you | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
draw a line under intrusion and privacy and I think we'd all agree | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
street cameras have been a fantastic idea and have prevented a lot of | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
crime and traced a lot of crime. Street cameras is an invasion of | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
privacy because you are seen on a random camera that you are not aware | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
of. On the subject of tracking phone records and data, I would probably | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
agree that we need to to that because on the last subject, you're | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
going to catch all sorts of issues, like paedophilia and anything that | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
we can use to stamp out such abuses, even though it's invasions | :46:38. | :46:39. | |
we can use to stamp out such abuses, privacy, at the end it justifies a | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
means. So not big brother. Scott Hastings? It's in terms of the | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
record-keeping of texts and numbers as well. If the powers-that-be have | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
to investigate further, they have to apply for a warrant and only then | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
can they then listen in and tap in to that communication. So I'm all | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
right about that. If somebody wants to hang on to a number I phoned | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
today, that's fine by me and if it's held for 16 months, it's fine by me. | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
I'm not doing anything wrong. It's held for 16 months, it's fine by me. | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
the people that are doing something wrong through texts and phone calls | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
that should be worried. It's not an invasion of civil liberties. We live | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
in a changing society and a different world and that means | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
different circumstances. Ricky Ross? Two issues here. First of all, the | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
yieshth issue Scott talked about, but before we even get to that, this | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
is something that's been brought in at very short notice. Towards a | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
weekend. I'm here and many people are here to hopefully get rid of | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
being governed by Westminster, but while we've got it, it's still a | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
democratic system, MPs and they are there to scrutinise legislation. You | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
don't make laws and build a great society by rushing something | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
through. Why would the opposition agree to it? You | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
through. Why would the opposition to ask them, not me. But I'll tell | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
you this, I don't think it's a great idea to bring through such | :48:11. | :48:12. | |
you this, I don't think it's a great legislation and not allowing people | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
to really look at what it means. It creates bad laws and bad laws are | :48:17. | :48:26. | |
usually made in haste. APPLAUSE | :48:27. | :48:28. | |
Just a wee point there. Ricky is going on about the law being rushed | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
through but if you go through airport security, you are going to | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
have to get your I pod out, turn your battery on, things change. We | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
have to react to the threats in society, so I'm afraid you're wrong. | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
I want to keep moving to get another question in. You, Sir, in the blue? | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
We now live in a society which the markets are free and the people are | :48:52. | :49:00. | |
controlled, rather than vice versa. Sometimes with rushed legislation of | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
unintended consequences, what happens if it goes further? Who | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
becomes the enemy? Now we'd say it's benign. | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
Who is going to decide who is to be spooked? Who is to be listened to? | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
You, Sir, in the pink? I believe this was brought through because of | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
a ruling by the European Court of Human Court of Human Rights. | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
For some reason, the Government realised that if they lost all that | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
data there could be a problem. It comes back to the same thing, if | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about. | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
Robert Smith, do you want to come in before we go? It's the same argument | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
that comes back about if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
worry. Just the fact that somebody's looking makes me uncomfortable in | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
the first place. Back to where we started. Donald | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
McKenzie, please? We need to be able to live together | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
after the referendum. What can be done to take some of the | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
unpleasantness out of the debate. Explain the unpleasantness, in your | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
view? There have been many instances where people have been attacked for | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
stating their opinion that they want to keep the United Kingdom. One | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
person was pounced on by the nationalists. Others in Scotland | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
who've expressed that opinion have been jumped on. Mr Savage himself | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
has been criticised by the SNP for stating that he thinks we'd be | :50:30. | :50:37. | |
better together. Alan Savage? The unmeantness in the debate is the | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
first thin and secondly, how will Scotland live with it after the | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
referendum? It's a fundamental issue, as we all agree, whether a | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
country gets independence, and it's, I believe that nationalism is | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
devisive. Once you start the debate, you divide a country into two | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
factions. So you've got a real problem in having the debate. I | :51:01. | :51:07. | |
personally think that the Scottish Government I think spends ?37 | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
billion a year and has done for the last seven years, building bridge | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
systems and tram systems when it could have spent money on other | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
issues, so it's had some lie lens to divert to other issues. The problem | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
is, at the end of the day, you can be patriotic but you don't have to | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
be nationalistic. You can be proud of your country, but you don't have | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
to be berate other people, the English in particular. I think they | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
have disguised it now into Westminster, all the bogeymen are | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
from Westminster when it's the English that are the problem. | :51:43. | :51:53. | |
That's fundamentally wrong. Well, I happen to be English, I | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
don't know if you noticed. I think there will be... Let him speak | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
first? I think there will be a lot of things to sort out, whether the | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
vote goes yes or no, and I think everybody's going to have to work | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
together to pull the country back. You are implying that the abuse is | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
only one way. I never said that. No, no, you are implying that. I never | :52:18. | :52:24. | |
said that. You said it's only one way. There is abuse. Of course there | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
is because this is the Internet age. I was amazed when Phil Neville was | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
abused because of his commentary wasn't done very well on the World | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
Cup, that somebody didn't blame that on the SNP. | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
LAUGHTER We live in an age where there are | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
certain people who go online and say the most appalling things because | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
it's anonymous and wrong and I would not condone it onner they are side. | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
But to assume that it's only a one-side issue is wrong. What will | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
happen after the referendum, yes or no is the people will continue to | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
live together. I didn't answer the second part of the question. The | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
second part of the question was to do with abuse and the gentleman said | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
there that I'd been criticised. I'm not on social media, I don't believe | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
in it, enever use it. So whatever people are calling me through that | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
medium, I don't know about. You in blue there, the open-neck | :53:23. | :53:30. | |
shirt? Two quick points. I agree completely with what Joan said in | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
that the abuse is two ways. I myself a few weeks back was targeted on | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
Facebook simply because I voiced my support for an SNP spokesman on | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
Question Time some time ago. Second of all, I think that yes, while | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
there have been attacks on both sides, overall, it's still a small | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
minority. I think I've heard debates, conversations with close | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
friends and come plait strangers and nine times out of ten, no, actually, | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
ten times out of ten, it's not ended in unpleasantness and bitterness. | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
The majority of people want a peaceful debate. | :54:09. | :54:16. | |
APPLAUSE The question is what it's happening? | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
Funnily enough, I do have a Twitter account. I was Tweeting Ricky | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
yesterday and we were getting abused by the cyber keyboard warriors! Now, | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
one of the reasons I'm sitting on this particular panel tonight is | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
that, as you have heard, I'm a passionate Scotsman and it's about | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
taking the heat out of the debate. I don't know about the audience, but I | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
feel things are chaining and I know we appreciate in terms of the | :54:42. | :54:50. | |
donations donations that have gone into the campaign, and the high | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
level awareness of what is happening has been taken out. We are having a | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
debate tonight. The young man said he's having a sensible debate with | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
lots of other people and quite rightly should be. In answer to the | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
gentleman's question about what would happen if it's a no-vote, I | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
believe more fiscal powers will happen for Scotland and Scotland | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
will move on as a country. The Liberal Democrats, the Scottish | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
Labour and the Conservatives have said they wish to have more fiscal | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
power to take the country on to that next step. As far as I'm concerned, | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
that is a good enough step for me. It doesn't have to be apart from the | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
rest of the United Kingdom, it can be together. | :55:31. | :55:36. | |
You, Sir? Just going back to the pointer making about being online. | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
We've had some revelations this week, five businesses saying they | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
felt intimidated by the Scottish Government that they coulden put | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
across their views about the independence debate because they | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
felt pressurised by a Scottish Government not to do so. That's more | :55:52. | :55:53. | |
worrying to Government not to do so. That's more | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
in a dark bedroom typing things on a laptop. That's taking it to another | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
level. It's quite worrying. Can you laptop. That's taking it to another | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
just the people in laptop. That's taking it to another | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
sending big messages to each other, but big businesses complaining that | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
they are being influenced or shut up really? Well, it would be news to | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
most of us. People say that, but I honestly have not seen any evidence | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
of that happening. Now, you were talking about the story that came | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
out earlier this week, but the gentleman asked a question in the | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
first place, he asked a question that assumed it was from one side, | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
but you also asked the other question, how will it be on the | :56:36. | :56:37. | |
19th? I totally agree with Scott question, how will it be on the | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
Joan and Alan, I think we'll pick ourselves up and move on because we | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
have been through things. But here is the most shocking | :56:47. | :56:48. | |
have been through things. But here about the Scottish independence | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
debate is, we are doing it very civilly. Scott's right, we were | :56:52. | :56:53. | |
called all sorts of civilly. Scott's right, we were | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
just for being unknowns or light weights. It was quite nice! Could | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
have been heavyweights and could have been insulting! But the fact | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
is, it's a very civilised debate. Alex Massey, the blogger, no fan of | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
independence wrote the most shocking thing about the independence debate | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
independence wrote the most shocking is we are all getting on with | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
independence wrote the most shocking talking to each other and listening | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
is the reality of it. Thank you very much. | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
APPLAUSE Our hour | :57:26. | :57:27. |