10/07/2014 Question Time


10/07/2014

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this is our last programme before the referendum on Scottish

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independence in September. Rather than here, as we have many times in

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recent programmes, the voice of politicians on this issue, we have

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chosen tonight, for once, to hear from the laity. Welcome to Question

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Time. And good evening to you at home, to

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our audience who will be putting the questions to the panel, who do not

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know what will be put to them. They are the songwriter and lead singer

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of the band Deacon Blue, Ricky Ross, former Scotland and British Lions

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rugby player Scott Hastings, newspaper columnist Joan Burnie, who

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was with the Daily Record as an agony aunt for the last 35 years,

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and the businessman Alan Savage, who runs the engineering group Orion,

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and is one of the biggest donors to the Better Together campaign.

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OK, let's have a question first from Andrew Smith. Will the referendum be

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decided by votes from the heart or from the head? From the heart or

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from the head, Ricky Ross? Well, tonight, we will have a lot of stuff

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from the head, I hope, and we will talk it round. But people will go

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into a polling booth on September the 18th. And I am pretty sure when

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they go in, there will still be a lot of heart stuff going on.

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Ultimately, you will have to make a choice of what country you want to

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live in. It is very interesting. We can do the facts and the figures,

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but I do think there is a lot of stuff about the heart. It is not

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about feeling Scottish, not about feeling some false sense of

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nationalistic pride and excluding people. It is a heart that says we

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want a more just, fairer society, and we want a democratic result for

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Scotland. APPLAUSE

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Scott Hastings. I am in the fortunate position of

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having represented my country and you cannot get a more proud Scotsman

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than myself. I played 65 times for my country and also have the ability

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to play for the British Lions, a select team from Ireland, Wales,

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England and Scotland, who go to the southern hemisphere nations once

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every four years. That was very, very special, almost

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every four years. That was very, moment. Just as Sir Chris Hoy

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competing in the Olympic Games. But I want to be part of something

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really special. We have politicians telling us we have to be independent

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to be a great country. I don't agree. We are already a great

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country. We have outstanding education, outstanding tourism, our

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financial services industry employs over 200,000 people. I travel the

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world over and to expats, we are a proud country. We have given a lot

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to the world. Our renewable energy, wave technology, wind power, there

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is a lot of entrepreneurship in Scotland and that is what I am proud

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to be part of. I am also proud to be part of Great Britain and the United

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Kingdom. APPLAUSE

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Is it an issue of heart and head for you, a choice between heart and

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head? It is both. I would agree with some

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of what Scott has said, but I would say we are a great country despite

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being in the union, not because of it. Joan Burnie. Can you call it

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great when the differential between rich and poor becomes bigger every

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single day? For me, it is both my head and my heart. My head asks me

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why, of all the countries in the entire

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why, of all the countries in the only ones who

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why, of all the countries in the thick to run their own affairs? This

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has puzzled me for years. It is not that I am anti-English. Simon

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has puzzled me for years. It is not sooner England gets rid of Scotland

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the better, so thanks for that, Simon. It is a head and they heart

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thing. I think it is a different country. I have worked in England. I

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have many English friends. country. I have worked in England. I

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say that but I genuinely do. England is also a great country, although it

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could be a greater country, and Scotland could be a great country.

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But I think they could both be greater apart. But how are we

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supposed to make our minds up? All the decisions and all

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supposed to make our minds up? All so on are going to be made after we

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have made a decision. I don't know where the money is coming from for

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my family. I don't know how I'm going to budget. With what? How

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often? How do we actually know? Scotland is the 14th richest country

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in the world. We have the resources. We have more GDP per head than

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either France or Japan, which might interest people, or not. There is

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enough money to go round, but the way now it is divided between rich

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and poor is wrong. I want a fairer society. I personally think the

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Westminster system is broken. We see what goes on in Westminster. The

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only way forward is for there to be some sort of change. And the only

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change, as far as I can see, that is happening will be with this

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referendum, which will at least give us our own parliament, but will also

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give England their own country back. Alan Savage, the argument that Joan

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Burnie is putting is about equality. But she have a point? I would like

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to address where the questions started, about head and heart. If a

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prospective government, the SNP right eight home of 700 pages and

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there is one page on finance, financial issues, and the rest is on

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the heart, it is obvious which way they want the campaign to go. -- if

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they write a book of 700 pages. They want it based on the heart. If you

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think about the facts and history of the union, it is a no-brainer that

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we are better off together. The man up there. I am born in Inverness. I

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am a passionate Highlanders and I love Scotland and I will take a

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stand to keep the United Kingdom together. I will give my life for my

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country, as my grandfather did in the First World War, and his

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brother, Charlie. Highland Regiment, British Army. I am British forever.

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We will never, never change. We will keep our union together in the name

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of Jesus. Thank you. Ricky Ross. Lets go back to your question. Go

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back to him first. Which point? You choose. You have a good, passionate

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heart, and the question was head or heart. Allen answered that it is not

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part of the White Paper. The heart stuff is what John is talking about.

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That is about compassion. What kind of country do you want to live in?

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Do you want a country which has its benefits cut, which is marginalising

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people? This is a rich country. I drove up tonight from my home city

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of Dundee, through the beautiful land of Perthshire, up to Inverness

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and I thought, this is an amazing place to live. It has so much going

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for it. But people at the bottom end are feeling the cups of George

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Osborne's budget, and that should not be the case. -- the cups. That

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is where the heart comes in. Build a fairer, better Scotland.

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Can you answer the point the lady in the front made, if you remember? You

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made the point that you are confused. She did not say she was

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confused, but that she did not know what was going to happen. I think

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you have to take things by stages. We are talking about the democratic

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process. We are only asking one question in Scotland of each other.

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Your view is as important as mine, yes or no. And then where do you

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want to take it. Then you have to make the decision. Why don't you

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then make the decision about what kind of country you want to live in?

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But first of all, make the decision to look after your own country. Joan

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is right. Why would we not do that best remark you have already said

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you have driven through the most beautiful countryside. I want people

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get out there and make the country great, people to be educated,

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inspired to get out onto that landscape and encourage people to to

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our country and build that entrepreneurism. We don't have to be

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independent to do that, we can do it right now. The man with the

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spectacles, and then you in the orange. If you take the yes vote as

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a businessman, and you take the electorate as a bank manager, the

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businessman goes to the bank manager and asks for an awful lot of money

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to expand his business. The bank manager says, what sort of currency

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are you going to use? The businessman says, well, we think we

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are going to have the pound. OK. Where is your market? Well, we think

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it is in Europe. Right, this is a great business plan, we think. What

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about security? You are going to disarm the nuclear deterrent. That

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means your new premises, with a lot of equipment in it will have no

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CCTV, no locks on the doors, and you are going to have it wide open. You

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are leaving this island race as a soft target at the top. Joan,

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perhaps you would like to answer that. This island race, have you

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looked at what has happened to this island race's Armed Forces over the

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past few years? Have you looked at what will happen if we keep the

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nuclear deterrent? ?4 billion every year to keep it running. But if you

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read the paper on it last week, you would also note that that would mean

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that the Armed Forces would have to be cut town ever more. Why do you

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want to join NATO? You don't have to be a nuclear power to join NATO. I

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think you would have known that by now. To go back to your point about

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economics, economics is part of the head part. It seems to me that if we

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look at all these people who are telling us how disastrous it is and

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how poor we are and how the infrastructure of the country will

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collapse, we then look at everything previous chancellors have said about

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the economy. Did any of them foresee 2008? When George Osborne became

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Chancellor he said that growth in the UK would be, I think, 1.8. It

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was 0.8. Nobody ever knows exactly what is going to happen with

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economics. Stuff happens. But you cannot make stuff happen unless you

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have some charge of it, and we do not. You are saying he tries to make

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stuff up and it doesn't happen, and if we had charge of it we could make

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stuff happen. But you wouldn't know what would happen? Perhaps I am not

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putting myself very well. That's it is my accident. That is a

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condescension to far! Stuff happens, but you have to control it to be

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able to guide that, and we have no control. I find it a bit insulting

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from Ricky and Joan to say that compassion only belongs to the yes

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campaign. The inference was given that we wanted to be a compassionate

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country. I am also wanting to live in a country that is compassionate,

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and I don't think you can blame Westminster for everything. But I

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would also like to say that the head is really important. To know what

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our finances are going to be. Today the office of budget responsibility

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announced that the low -- latest forecast for North Sea oil revenue

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will be 25% less than they predicted a couple of years ago. So economics

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change all the time as well, and not facing up to what could be is very

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important. I am pleased you brought up that report. Just wait a second.

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Mr Hastings, your rhetoric is very heart-warming. However, there is no

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point at which you point towards a much more socially equitable and

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just society. And I think it's only by becoming an independent nation

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that determines its own future that will be possible.

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APPLAUSE And your reply? You spoke about the

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specific report that came out today which is very interesting.

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Particularly interesting to me because, as you can see, I'm very

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old. Now, I remember back in the 1970s when my late husband was

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actually an MP and also an economist. There was a report came

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out about the resources in the North Sea and we were told

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out about the resources in the North all be done and dusted by 1990 that

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out about the resources in the North there was very little oil left, so

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go away and think again. Now, the amount of oil which is left, in

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monetary value now, is amount of oil which is left, in

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same as the amount of oil which had been taken out. Are you saying the

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economics stack up? Yes. Why don't we know what currency we are going

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economics stack up? Yes. Why don't to be using in Scotland? Because

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unfortunately, there was not proper discussion. Complex economy, we need

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a currency, we all agree on that. If you want a just and fair society,

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that costs money, so we see that the outgoings are ?63.7 billion and the

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incomings are ?63.7 billion, happy days break even, but if the oil

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revenues or tax revenues drop, the tax revenue doesn't work, so you

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cannot run a society on the heart and passion

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cannot run a society on the heart got to run it with sound, economic

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principles. If you ever ask Salmond or Sturgeon about the currency, it's

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evasive and if you don't let us use the pound, we are not going to take

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our share of the national debt. What way is that to start off a fairer

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more just country when you are not going to pay your debts? But on that

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point, do you accept the OBR report that the value of oil is declining,

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or do you think Joan has got it right by saying you can't trust the

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forecasts because they are always being made one way or the other. You

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are a businessman? Oil is a finite item. The more you take out, the

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less there is of it, this was it's got to go up in price. But to

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justify a whole basis of running a complex, modern society on whether

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oil is $15 or $150 a barrel, somebody has to make an estimate and

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thest mates that the SNP make is that everything will be rosy and

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wonderful. -- the estimates. What is the currency going to be, what will

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it be? How can I run a business across the world with 100 different

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bank accounts if I don't know where I'm starting from? Ricky? We know

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the currency will be the pound. We know that. That's a fact. What do

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you know that we don't? Let me take this woman's point, a good point.

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You can wind back the tape when you get home, but I didn't say that.

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Neither did Joan. We said we decide what country we want to be, I'm not

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saying we have a genetic natural tendency to be more compassionate

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than anyone else, but we make the decision of what country we want to

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be. Surely the country, or I'm saying the kind of country I want to

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be is the country that's not heading down the same road as the UK's

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heading at the moment where the NHS, for example, south of the border, is

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being taken apart, where benefit cuts are forcing people to go to

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food banks. We haven't even discussed that yet. One of the most

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obscene things about modern day Scotland is the fact that all of

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what Scott said was true, we are a very wealthy country, but people are

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not experiencing that and they need to experience it.

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Just the gentleman was explaining about social inequality there. I

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think there are issues in every society between rich and poor, for

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want of a better word. I think we've got to address that and we address

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that through initiatives and volunteering and community,

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community is so important, we live in the high larnedz in Inverness,

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there is a community here. If that can be rolled back into cities,

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there's a potential solution -- Highlands. The reality is, we are

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living on tough times. I keep an eye on what I spend every moment of

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every day. A few years ago, I was made redundant, we took a pay cut to

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try to keep that business alive and we have seen the strikes down south

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and in England today from public sector workers and I do sympathise

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with them, but at the end of the day, we are in tough times, we have

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to just tighten the purse strick strings a wee bit.

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You had a point on this, didn't you? Do you want to take it? What is your

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view about what Ricky said? Almost a million people had to use food banks

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last year while the 104 richest in our country shared a wealth of ?301

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billion and that quite frankly is disgusting.

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That figure alone is enough to vote yes because I don't want to be a

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part of any country that produces such economic disparity.

:20:06.:20:11.

APPLAUSE The cost of separation will be

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really high. We'd have diminishing oil reserves, the reason that the

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union came into existence in the first place was because Scotland

:20:20.:20:25.

went bankrupt and was bought over by England basically. I just didn't see

:20:26.:20:30.

any positive side to it. What do you make of Rory's argument that he

:20:31.:20:34.

doesn't want to be part of a country where there's a growing disparity of

:20:35.:20:38.

wealth and that this would be how it is if Scotland is independent? You

:20:39.:20:44.

would have to leave Scotland because situations occur in an independent

:20:45.:20:47.

Scotland. It would make no difference? I don't think it would.

:20:48.:20:52.

Can I say one final word on the oil? Scotland would still be a wealthy

:20:53.:20:57.

country without the oil. Correct. I've never ever understood why this

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must be the only country in the world which has found oil off its

:21:04.:21:09.

coast. Somehow or other it's seen as a terrible thing to have happened.

:21:10.:21:13.

Look at Norway and what is in their oil fund now. They were sensible.

:21:14.:21:17.

They accept that the North Sea was going to bring a bonanza. What did

:21:18.:21:22.

we do with it? We wasted it. I think the reserves should not be wasted

:21:23.:21:29.

and should go towards... APPLAUSE You,

:21:30.:21:34.

Sir? I can't see what colour your shirt is. I appreciate what you are

:21:35.:21:41.

saying, but I've done the same positively around Scotland. But you

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have got a Mr Darling in your camp, the most negative campaigner and

:21:49.:21:52.

when he was Chancellor, he couldn't foresee the banking crisis. Why

:21:53.:21:56.

should I listen to your rhetoric? Listen, I can understand that.

:21:57.:22:03.

APPLAUS If you look at the scan doll over RBS, HBOS, it was badly

:22:04.:22:07.

managed, you can then tarnish the brush and look at Gordon Brown and

:22:08.:22:14.

Scotsmen were getting hammered rightly so because the banking

:22:15.:22:17.

industry lost a huge amount of credible. That's gone now. It's time

:22:18.:22:21.

to move forward and moves are being put in place with proper officialdom

:22:22.:22:26.

to move that forward. That's part and parcel of the future debate that

:22:27.:22:30.

that should be an ongoing dialogue because we have to put the trust in

:22:31.:22:37.

people's savings and investments and bed in better together, we can do

:22:38.:22:40.

that. What do you think? In response to

:22:41.:22:45.

what the chap was saying about it not being a viable business

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proposal, are there not lots of businesses that start from a dream

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and passion and are based up on that dream and become a success? Who is

:22:53.:22:56.

to say Scotland can't become one of those successes?

:22:57.:23:00.

APPLAUS Answer that because he built up a

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business I think he walked into a bank and said, I feed to -- I think

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if he walked into the bank and said I have a passion and a dream, can I

:23:16.:23:20.

borrow some money. You wouldn't get it. You'd have to go to the IMF. I

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can't see how you are going to have a credit rating based on a situation

:23:28.:23:32.

where you are not prepared to pay your share of the national debt.

:23:33.:23:35.

That was the kick off point, if you don't get the pound, you are not

:23:36.:23:38.

going to pay the share of the national debt. I can't see a credit

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agency accepted that you have defaulted on debts already, then

:23:43.:23:47.

lending you money. Are you saying an independent Scotland would get broke

:23:48.:23:50.

straightaway? No. What are you saying then? We'd find it difficult

:23:51.:23:55.

to borrow money and the money we borrowed would be at a high interest

:23:56.:23:59.

rate and I'm answering the first question which was if I go to a

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bank, I can build Saux Cescful business - it doesn't work that way

:24:06.:24:10.

-- build a successful business. One wage out of 70 on finance is

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beyond belief. Let's give Alan some detail, shall we? Yes. To live in

:24:19.:24:24.

Scotland is to be in the top 20 of the wealthiest countries in the

:24:25.:24:28.

world. To live in Scotland is to be per Head of Population, better off

:24:29.:24:34.

than someone living in Italy, France or the rest of the United Kingdom.

:24:35.:24:39.

Maybe surprisingly you are better off than someone living in Japan.

:24:40.:24:47.

The credit rating for Scotland - and these are recent figures - they are

:24:48.:24:52.

not the yes campaign figures, they come from the Financial Times, from

:24:53.:24:56.

a report in February. Scotland is a very wealthy country. It's

:24:57.:25:00.

potentially a huge country. As Joan said, when we talk about oil, oil is

:25:01.:25:06.

perhaps the last thing that we talk about because we have got so many

:25:07.:25:12.

other resources. We have a very strong food and drinks industry, we

:25:13.:25:17.

have a very, very strong education system. We have one of the best

:25:18.:25:22.

educated adult population in Europe. That's an incredible resource. I was

:25:23.:25:26.

talking to people today at university when they were talking

:25:27.:25:31.

about bringing people in, people certain industries looking for

:25:32.:25:33.

skilled workers. We have skilled workers. We have people. We have

:25:34.:25:36.

talent. That is also a resource and it makes us a very rich country.

:25:37.:25:42.

But, we and lots of people watching this programme tonight are not

:25:43.:25:46.

seeing that, not feeling that. Unfortunately, welfare and a number

:25:47.:25:49.

of other things are still controlled from Westminster.

:25:50.:25:55.

APPLAUSE I would like to make a point really.

:25:56.:26:01.

I think that what Ricky said earlier was interesting about being a more

:26:02.:26:04.

fair and just society. At the moment, it's the Scottish Government

:26:05.:26:08.

that actually health is devolved through Scottish Government and in

:26:09.:26:12.

the Highlands, we've got seven different companies running in care

:26:13.:26:16.

services which are not public companies. We've also got a

:26:17.:26:21.

situation where there's a huge carer crisis here. An old lady

:26:22.:26:24.

situation where there's a huge carer Huntington's disease living in a

:26:25.:26:28.

flat which is not fit for living in and she hasn't had any carers for

:26:29.:26:32.

two weeks. A lady here in a hospital has been in hospital for three

:26:33.:26:35.

months because she can't get out because there are no carers. If you

:26:36.:26:41.

are saying you want to be more fair and just a society, the SNP have got

:26:42.:26:46.

control of health now... You are absolutely right, but...

:26:47.:26:49.

APPLAUSE First of all, I'm not from the SNP

:26:50.:26:53.

and I don't think Joan is either, none of us on the panel here is

:26:54.:27:01.

party people. We are discussing yes or no. But let's take a hook at what

:27:02.:27:05.

is whatting to the Health Service. The point is a very simple one. You

:27:06.:27:10.

keep saying only if Scotland is independent will we get fair

:27:11.:27:13.

treatment. She's saying Scotland has control over health and doesn't have

:27:14.:27:17.

control? We have control over health within the budget we are given. More

:27:18.:27:22.

money available for health, she is saying. But when the vote, if the

:27:23.:27:27.

vote was new, I'll tell you something, the Barnet formula would

:27:28.:27:34.

change hugely and suddenly we'd be in a different health regime than we

:27:35.:27:38.

are at the moment. At the moment, we still have a National Health

:27:39.:27:40.

Service. I would be interested in people's comments down south. A lot

:27:41.:27:47.

of people don't believe they are seeing a Health Service down south.

:27:48.:27:52.

It's a market-run machine with the NHS logo there.

:27:53.:27:58.

What is your reaction? I think when you talk about a market-run NHS in

:27:59.:28:04.

England, right now NHS Highland is modelling in the Health Service on

:28:05.:28:11.

Toyota. They have actually sent people to look at how Toyota runs

:28:12.:28:14.

its business and they are going to run the NHS, or thinking about

:28:15.:28:21.

running the NHS on that model. That gentleman? The person at the

:28:22.:28:29.

very back there. I would like to ask Alan Savage how much research is

:28:30.:28:33.

really done. He talks about credit worthiness and the people that know

:28:34.:28:37.

about this have said Scotland would get a AAA rating so it doesn't seem

:28:38.:28:42.

to suggest that you have read it to it. The UBS report out today said

:28:43.:28:45.

to suggest that you have read it to it. The UBS report out today they

:28:46.:28:47.

wouldn't so you can look at different articles that suit your

:28:48.:28:55.

argument. It isn't clear cut. You've got to off with the currency and if

:28:56.:28:59.

Scotland is that rich, why doesn't it have its own currency, I'm

:29:00.:29:03.

baffled by it. I actually think that Scotland could. Good idea. You at

:29:04.:29:08.

the back there? It doesn't matter what currency we use. Currency is

:29:09.:29:13.

only a contract for exchange of goods. So we could use Bitcoins or

:29:14.:29:22.

whatever, it doesn't matter. APPLAUSE

:29:23.:29:24.

You've been hearing all this? Do you have any reaction to what you have

:29:25.:29:30.

heard? Yes. I want to say this. 31 million people of the United Kingdom

:29:31.:29:36.

pay into the Exchequer. Only 4.2 million people in Scotland could pay

:29:37.:29:40.

for that, that's for the Health Service, that's for all the social

:29:41.:29:43.

services. And the people that suffer most in the country are the poorest.

:29:44.:29:48.

I'm concerned for the poor! Understand! Along with Gordon Brown,

:29:49.:29:55.

I can say this - Scotland can lead and will lead the United Kingdom. I

:29:56.:30:04.

used to play rugby for an academy and I know how never to give up.

:30:05.:30:08.

They said to me, you'll never get in the team and I said "watch me! " And

:30:09.:30:20.

I will give my own life if I want to keep this country together. Let's

:30:21.:30:25.

take P- one more question. Bruce Nielson, please? Is there P- such a

:30:26.:30:34.

thing as independence in Europe? The UK's already subject to the faceless

:30:35.:30:39.

bureaucrats of Brussels, all we have got to do with independence is miss

:30:40.:30:49.

out the middle man? Is there such a thing as independence in Europe?

:30:50.:30:57.

When the Better Together campaign were going on about how we had not

:30:58.:31:01.

been allowed into Europe, various people said, actually, I think we

:31:02.:31:05.

will because they will not turn us down, given how assets. But I have

:31:06.:31:11.

noticed that as UKIP has risen, the Tory party does not talk so much now

:31:12.:31:15.

about Scotland being booted out of Europe, because it might be seen on

:31:16.:31:18.

the other side of the border as an absolute plus that we weren't going

:31:19.:31:25.

to be in Europe any longer. I think we do need some form of European

:31:26.:31:33.

Parliament. I think it could do with some reform. I certainly sink that

:31:34.:31:37.

macro think some of the things they do are crazy. But not quite as crazy

:31:38.:31:43.

as some in my profession would have us believe. I think if there was a

:31:44.:31:47.

referendum tomorrow there might be people who would vote with their

:31:48.:31:50.

heart rather than their head, and they would say we should leave it. I

:31:51.:31:56.

think the European Union will enjoy off. I would be interested to hear

:31:57.:32:01.

what Mr Savage thinks about leaving the union, because I understand most

:32:02.:32:04.

business people would be more than happy to stay in it, whether

:32:05.:32:09.

Scotland is independent, or whether we are together. What is your view?

:32:10.:32:19.

I am not sure what she asked. Would you like to be in or out of the

:32:20.:32:24.

European market I would like to be in the European market. The question

:32:25.:32:27.

is whether there could be genuine independence if you are in the

:32:28.:32:32.

European Union. Without labouring the point on currency, and the

:32:33.:32:37.

gentleman who is going to use the Groat, you are not going to go very

:32:38.:32:43.

heart -- very far on holiday. If you look at the currency issue, if you

:32:44.:32:49.

are using the pound and the Bank of England is going to set the interest

:32:50.:32:54.

rate, by definition you are not an independent country because somebody

:32:55.:32:57.

else is setting the very tool you use to regulate the economy,

:32:58.:33:00.

interest rates, so you are not independent. What it's -- what is

:33:01.:33:08.

your view? I do not think we should have dumped the Commonwealth. What

:33:09.:33:17.

about the Empire? That was the whole point. I was able to vote in the

:33:18.:33:21.

referendum we had into Europe, and I felt at the time, actually I voted

:33:22.:33:26.

we should not go in, because I felt strongly that the Tory party saw

:33:27.:33:31.

that they would go into Europe and take it over and that would replace

:33:32.:33:35.

their union, they would be kingpins in Brussels. When they got there and

:33:36.:33:39.

the French and Germans said no, they did not like it. I do not think

:33:40.:33:46.

there is such a thing as true independence without leaving the UK,

:33:47.:33:51.

leaving Europe, getting completely away from countries like Norway, for

:33:52.:34:01.

example. They are not in the European Union. Are you saying it is

:34:02.:34:08.

a false choice to put to Scotland, to say independent and in the EU?

:34:09.:34:14.

Yes. I would say true independence would be out of the EU. You in the

:34:15.:34:26.

far top row. I think my head and my heart tell me that independence does

:34:27.:34:30.

not mean we have to be out of anything. It does not mean we would

:34:31.:34:34.

stand alone. For me, a personal view, I think it is head and heart.

:34:35.:34:39.

I see that I can be better represented. I can vote for people

:34:40.:34:43.

to be my voice in a Scottish Parliament and to take that voice

:34:44.:34:45.

into Europe, to argue for our interests. I am only 34 but I have

:34:46.:34:55.

been disenfranchised from UK politics, Westminster, for well over

:34:56.:35:00.

ten, 15 years. APPLAUSE

:35:01.:35:08.

This is an opportunity for people like me to engage with politics and

:35:09.:35:11.

get a chance for our voice to be heard, and to feel we have something

:35:12.:35:15.

to offer, to produce, to come up with economic solutions. We want to

:35:16.:35:20.

do that. We want this chance. APPLAUSE

:35:21.:35:25.

We will move away from the independence issue.

:35:26.:35:32.

Just a reminder that you can join the debate by text or Twitter.

:35:33.:35:44.

Let's take a question from another audience member. Are we, as a

:35:45.:35:55.

society, doing enough to protect our children from the people who abuse

:35:56.:36:00.

the power they wield? Are we doing enough to protect our children? My

:36:01.:36:07.

wife was a disclosure carer for her local sports club. There is a lot of

:36:08.:36:16.

work being done at a local community type of level. However, I think your

:36:17.:36:21.

question might be towards looking at Westminster and the recent outrage

:36:22.:36:24.

in terms of missing files and potential paedophilia that went on

:36:25.:36:29.

within the dark rooms of Westminster. That really concerns

:36:30.:36:35.

me. I hope the Metropolitan Police delve down into this case, because I

:36:36.:36:40.

think we have all been really upset with the recent findings and

:36:41.:36:44.

sentencing of Rolf Harris, and of course Cyril Smith, recently. There

:36:45.:36:49.

is an investigation into him. Again, public schools, I understand

:36:50.:36:54.

there are investigations there, and the Roman Catholic education system

:36:55.:36:57.

are being investigated. It is a real concern.

:36:58.:37:01.

are being investigated. It is a real there is a lot of good work being

:37:02.:37:06.

done to protect our youngsters. I would just like to say, why should

:37:07.:37:11.

done to protect our youngsters. I paedophiles be released from prison

:37:12.:37:14.

and given new identities? Should we not know who they are so we can look

:37:15.:37:22.

after our kids? If my paper is to be believed, I

:37:23.:37:26.

read that during the News of the World enquiry there were 200 members

:37:27.:37:32.

of the Metropolitan Police force who were designated as looking into it.

:37:33.:37:39.

This recent one in Westminster, so far there are only 17. Does this

:37:40.:37:44.

sound fair? It sounds like they have already decided to keep it behind

:37:45.:37:49.

closed doors. Joan Burnie, do you agree? I am not sure having an

:37:50.:37:54.

establishment figure heading an enquiry to look into the wrong

:37:55.:37:58.

doings, it is said, of the establishment is necessarily a good

:37:59.:38:04.

thing. I am sure she is an admirable woman and I would say nothing

:38:05.:38:09.

against the former judge. Well, you would, because you have said she is

:38:10.:38:14.

a member of the establishment and would connive in a cover-up, that is

:38:15.:38:20.

what you are implying. I did not say that. I would suggest it is unwise

:38:21.:38:24.

for someone in the establishment to have an examination of the

:38:25.:38:28.

establishment. Because she cannot be objective or because others will

:38:29.:38:34.

think she is not? The perception. But we also have to look at reality.

:38:35.:38:39.

I can speak of a former agony aunt. The reality of child sexual abuse is

:38:40.:38:43.

that we must not forget most of it takes place within the family

:38:44.:38:47.

circle, from family and friends. It is not just within the

:38:48.:38:50.

establishment, within public schools. It is a curse of childhood

:38:51.:38:57.

for children from all backgrounds, not necessarily by MPs and people

:38:58.:39:01.

who are high and mighty. It happens in homes, in towns and villages. And

:39:02.:39:06.

that is what we should remember. We should not get carried away with

:39:07.:39:10.

thinking it only happens in the House of Commons or within the

:39:11.:39:13.

Catholic church or wherever. It is our duty to protect our children and

:39:14.:39:17.

I totally accept what the lady said about the fact that they come out of

:39:18.:39:21.

prison and we do not know where they are. There must be something to do

:39:22.:39:26.

with that, but the overriding thing is to protect our children. Whether

:39:27.:39:29.

this commission will do that, I remain to see. I believe although

:39:30.:39:35.

she is a figure of the establishment, she will use her

:39:36.:39:38.

position to enquire more deeply because of the connection with her

:39:39.:39:44.

brother. To show that she is completely independent. Well, it is

:39:45.:39:51.

a huge question, one that everyone is asking, to go back to your

:39:52.:39:56.

question. I spoke to a friend of mine because I was concerned about

:39:57.:40:01.

this question coming up. Talking to a friend who had worked in social

:40:02.:40:06.

work with children, this is a question of power. It is a question

:40:07.:40:11.

of people wielding inappropriate power and deference to power, people

:40:12.:40:16.

who have a position that they can abuse, literally abuse. And I think

:40:17.:40:22.

this question, the way we are talking earlier about what kind of

:40:23.:40:26.

country wants to live in, surely we want to live in a country that

:40:27.:40:29.

protects its weakest and most vulnerable. We have to get to the

:40:30.:40:35.

bottom of this. Joan is absolutely right. There is huge evidence to

:40:36.:40:39.

show that most abuse happens in families, with people they know,

:40:40.:40:45.

within small areas. But I happen to think we have an awful lot of things

:40:46.:40:51.

wrong in the past, and we need to go back and make amends. The saddest

:40:52.:40:57.

thing about this is that we talk about it and we bring out people in

:40:58.:41:01.

the newspaper, we expose various people, but at the same time there

:41:02.:41:06.

are people who have had abuse done to them who are still hurting, still

:41:07.:41:10.

grieving and still finding it very difficult to move on from something

:41:11.:41:15.

that happened a long, long time ago. And the powerful have got to be made

:41:16.:41:24.

accountable. Just to back up what Ricky has said, one of the ways that

:41:25.:41:30.

a strong society maintains control over these powerful figures is

:41:31.:41:34.

through a free press. It is to be hoped that recent events have meant

:41:35.:41:38.

that the free press in this country is sufficiently strong enough to

:41:39.:41:44.

bring those who bring their power into things like paedophilia. Alan

:41:45.:41:50.

Savage. I agree with Ricky that power corrupts, and people take

:41:51.:41:56.

abuse of power. When they do that with young children, then that is

:41:57.:42:02.

reprehensible. I think you can maybe look at the profile of the people

:42:03.:42:07.

that carry out these acts, and look at ways of maybe spotting them

:42:08.:42:13.

before they do it, taking heed of what they are doing when they do

:42:14.:42:17.

it, and listening to the kids and people that report it and acting

:42:18.:42:21.

more decisively. I think the investigation into it has to be

:42:22.:42:26.

above and beyond anything. It has to be absolutely quick, clear,

:42:27.:42:29.

clinical, and let's get it sorted out and make sure it doesn't happen

:42:30.:42:35.

again in recurring cases. What you make, you said you were of an older

:42:36.:42:39.

generation so you remember the times, of what Norman Tebbit said.

:42:40.:42:44.

He thought there might have been a cover-up because it might have been

:42:45.:42:48.

thought more important in the 1970s to protect the establishment, rather

:42:49.:42:52.

than find wrongdoers. You have no doubt that -- heard the former whip

:42:53.:42:56.

under Ted Heath saying if somebody came in debt, or some sort of

:42:57.:43:01.

trouble with boys, we might try and dampen it down and then they would

:43:02.:43:04.

be our person forever, because they would do what we said. Is that a

:43:05.:43:10.

society you recognise, the way the establishment used to work? You were

:43:11.:43:16.

a journalist. Not only that, but I was married to an MP in the 1970s. I

:43:17.:43:21.

do recognise that that prevailing culture was the way in which

:43:22.:43:25.

Westminster was run, it was very much a male club, and there was a

:43:26.:43:30.

great deal of self protection amongst all parties. I think that in

:43:31.:43:36.

some ways, we didn't want to talk about paedophilia. We didn't want to

:43:37.:43:40.

talk about child abuse. We wanted to brush it under the carpet. And it

:43:41.:43:47.

was not spoken about, so the victims did not speak out and were not

:43:48.:43:51.

believed. I heard what Norman Tebbit said, and I thought he was probably

:43:52.:43:55.

correct about the times in which we live. But that has continued over

:43:56.:44:00.

the years, so that those who perhaps wanted to speak out gradually

:44:01.:44:05.

thought they were not going to be believed. This has gone on and on,

:44:06.:44:11.

and nothing was done. To this day, although the culture has changed,

:44:12.:44:14.

the feeling in those who have been abused has not changed. I agree with

:44:15.:44:21.

what Joan has said, but here is another thing. I think it is

:44:22.:44:25.

important in all of this that hysteria does not break out. When

:44:26.:44:30.

hysteria breaks out over this, you end up with people marching through

:44:31.:44:33.

housing estates and throwing people out, and getting the wrong person.

:44:34.:44:38.

Suddenly we had a whole storm last weekend of what someone might have

:44:39.:44:42.

said. Get to the truth, find it out, and let's not have panic because I

:44:43.:44:46.

don't think that is going to help vulnerable children, or people who

:44:47.:44:51.

have been abused. And that, we all think, I am sure, is what we are

:44:52.:45:03.

trying to do. Obviously no-one wants to create panic but the law needs to

:45:04.:45:07.

change because right now it's not illegal not to tell someone that you

:45:08.:45:11.

suspect a child is being abused. You could be a teacher and suspect but

:45:12.:45:16.

you can keep it to yourself and that's kind of where the problem

:45:17.:45:18.

comes, eight out of ten are abused that's kind of where the problem

:45:19.:45:27.

Another question. I would like to take a couple more before I finish.

:45:28.:45:32.

Let's deal with this one from Robert Smith, please? Emergency data laws

:45:33.:45:39.

are being rushed through unchallenged. Is it a step towards a

:45:40.:45:44.

big brother society? This is the news today that the Government,

:45:45.:45:47.

coalition and opposition are going ahead with the law so that phone

:45:48.:45:53.

records can be tapped as a result of the EU saying they can't be? What do

:45:54.:46:02.

you make of that? I used the term drawing a line and it's where you

:46:03.:46:07.

draw a line under intrusion and privacy and I think we'd all agree

:46:08.:46:11.

street cameras have been a fantastic idea and have prevented a lot of

:46:12.:46:15.

crime and traced a lot of crime. Street cameras is an invasion of

:46:16.:46:20.

privacy because you are seen on a random camera that you are not aware

:46:21.:46:24.

of. On the subject of tracking phone records and data, I would probably

:46:25.:46:28.

agree that we need to to that because on the last subject, you're

:46:29.:46:33.

going to catch all sorts of issues, like paedophilia and anything that

:46:34.:46:37.

we can use to stamp out such abuses, even though it's invasions

:46:38.:46:39.

we can use to stamp out such abuses, privacy, at the end it justifies a

:46:40.:46:44.

means. So not big brother. Scott Hastings? It's in terms of the

:46:45.:46:49.

record-keeping of texts and numbers as well. If the powers-that-be have

:46:50.:46:54.

to investigate further, they have to apply for a warrant and only then

:46:55.:46:59.

can they then listen in and tap in to that communication. So I'm all

:47:00.:47:04.

right about that. If somebody wants to hang on to a number I phoned

:47:05.:47:10.

today, that's fine by me and if it's held for 16 months, it's fine by me.

:47:11.:47:13.

I'm not doing anything wrong. It's held for 16 months, it's fine by me.

:47:14.:47:16.

the people that are doing something wrong through texts and phone calls

:47:17.:47:21.

that should be worried. It's not an invasion of civil liberties. We live

:47:22.:47:25.

in a changing society and a different world and that means

:47:26.:47:31.

different circumstances. Ricky Ross? Two issues here. First of all, the

:47:32.:47:36.

yieshth issue Scott talked about, but before we even get to that, this

:47:37.:47:41.

is something that's been brought in at very short notice. Towards a

:47:42.:47:45.

weekend. I'm here and many people are here to hopefully get rid of

:47:46.:47:49.

being governed by Westminster, but while we've got it, it's still a

:47:50.:47:57.

democratic system, MPs and they are there to scrutinise legislation. You

:47:58.:48:00.

don't make laws and build a great society by rushing something

:48:01.:48:03.

through. Why would the opposition agree to it? You

:48:04.:48:06.

through. Why would the opposition to ask them, not me. But I'll tell

:48:07.:48:10.

you this, I don't think it's a great idea to bring through such

:48:11.:48:12.

you this, I don't think it's a great legislation and not allowing people

:48:13.:48:16.

to really look at what it means. It creates bad laws and bad laws are

:48:17.:48:26.

usually made in haste. APPLAUSE

:48:27.:48:28.

Just a wee point there. Ricky is going on about the law being rushed

:48:29.:48:33.

through but if you go through airport security, you are going to

:48:34.:48:36.

have to get your I pod out, turn your battery on, things change. We

:48:37.:48:39.

have to react to the threats in society, so I'm afraid you're wrong.

:48:40.:48:44.

I want to keep moving to get another question in. You, Sir, in the blue?

:48:45.:48:51.

We now live in a society which the markets are free and the people are

:48:52.:49:00.

controlled, rather than vice versa. Sometimes with rushed legislation of

:49:01.:49:03.

unintended consequences, what happens if it goes further? Who

:49:04.:49:08.

becomes the enemy? Now we'd say it's benign.

:49:09.:49:14.

Who is going to decide who is to be spooked? Who is to be listened to?

:49:15.:49:19.

You, Sir, in the pink? I believe this was brought through because of

:49:20.:49:25.

a ruling by the European Court of Human Court of Human Rights.

:49:26.:49:30.

For some reason, the Government realised that if they lost all that

:49:31.:49:33.

data there could be a problem. It comes back to the same thing, if

:49:34.:49:36.

you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to worry about.

:49:37.:49:41.

Robert Smith, do you want to come in before we go? It's the same argument

:49:42.:49:47.

that comes back about if you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't

:49:48.:49:53.

worry. Just the fact that somebody's looking makes me uncomfortable in

:49:54.:49:57.

the first place. Back to where we started. Donald

:49:58.:50:01.

McKenzie, please? We need to be able to live together

:50:02.:50:05.

after the referendum. What can be done to take some of the

:50:06.:50:09.

unpleasantness out of the debate. Explain the unpleasantness, in your

:50:10.:50:12.

view? There have been many instances where people have been attacked for

:50:13.:50:16.

stating their opinion that they want to keep the United Kingdom. One

:50:17.:50:21.

person was pounced on by the nationalists. Others in Scotland

:50:22.:50:25.

who've expressed that opinion have been jumped on. Mr Savage himself

:50:26.:50:29.

has been criticised by the SNP for stating that he thinks we'd be

:50:30.:50:37.

better together. Alan Savage? The unmeantness in the debate is the

:50:38.:50:41.

first thin and secondly, how will Scotland live with it after the

:50:42.:50:45.

referendum? It's a fundamental issue, as we all agree, whether a

:50:46.:50:51.

country gets independence, and it's, I believe that nationalism is

:50:52.:50:55.

devisive. Once you start the debate, you divide a country into two

:50:56.:51:00.

factions. So you've got a real problem in having the debate. I

:51:01.:51:07.

personally think that the Scottish Government I think spends ?37

:51:08.:51:11.

billion a year and has done for the last seven years, building bridge

:51:12.:51:16.

systems and tram systems when it could have spent money on other

:51:17.:51:22.

issues, so it's had some lie lens to divert to other issues. The problem

:51:23.:51:25.

is, at the end of the day, you can be patriotic but you don't have to

:51:26.:51:29.

be nationalistic. You can be proud of your country, but you don't have

:51:30.:51:34.

to be berate other people, the English in particular. I think they

:51:35.:51:39.

have disguised it now into Westminster, all the bogeymen are

:51:40.:51:42.

from Westminster when it's the English that are the problem.

:51:43.:51:53.

That's fundamentally wrong. Well, I happen to be English, I

:51:54.:51:59.

don't know if you noticed. I think there will be... Let him speak

:52:00.:52:03.

first? I think there will be a lot of things to sort out, whether the

:52:04.:52:07.

vote goes yes or no, and I think everybody's going to have to work

:52:08.:52:12.

together to pull the country back. You are implying that the abuse is

:52:13.:52:17.

only one way. I never said that. No, no, you are implying that. I never

:52:18.:52:24.

said that. You said it's only one way. There is abuse. Of course there

:52:25.:52:30.

is because this is the Internet age. I was amazed when Phil Neville was

:52:31.:52:36.

abused because of his commentary wasn't done very well on the World

:52:37.:52:40.

Cup, that somebody didn't blame that on the SNP.

:52:41.:52:43.

LAUGHTER We live in an age where there are

:52:44.:52:47.

certain people who go online and say the most appalling things because

:52:48.:52:51.

it's anonymous and wrong and I would not condone it onner they are side.

:52:52.:52:56.

But to assume that it's only a one-side issue is wrong. What will

:52:57.:53:01.

happen after the referendum, yes or no is the people will continue to

:53:02.:53:05.

live together. I didn't answer the second part of the question. The

:53:06.:53:09.

second part of the question was to do with abuse and the gentleman said

:53:10.:53:14.

there that I'd been criticised. I'm not on social media, I don't believe

:53:15.:53:18.

in it, enever use it. So whatever people are calling me through that

:53:19.:53:22.

medium, I don't know about. You in blue there, the open-neck

:53:23.:53:30.

shirt? Two quick points. I agree completely with what Joan said in

:53:31.:53:34.

that the abuse is two ways. I myself a few weeks back was targeted on

:53:35.:53:39.

Facebook simply because I voiced my support for an SNP spokesman on

:53:40.:53:46.

Question Time some time ago. Second of all, I think that yes, while

:53:47.:53:51.

there have been attacks on both sides, overall, it's still a small

:53:52.:53:56.

minority. I think I've heard debates, conversations with close

:53:57.:54:00.

friends and come plait strangers and nine times out of ten, no, actually,

:54:01.:54:06.

ten times out of ten, it's not ended in unpleasantness and bitterness.

:54:07.:54:08.

The majority of people want a peaceful debate.

:54:09.:54:16.

APPLAUSE The question is what it's happening?

:54:17.:54:21.

Funnily enough, I do have a Twitter account. I was Tweeting Ricky

:54:22.:54:25.

yesterday and we were getting abused by the cyber keyboard warriors! Now,

:54:26.:54:30.

one of the reasons I'm sitting on this particular panel tonight is

:54:31.:54:33.

that, as you have heard, I'm a passionate Scotsman and it's about

:54:34.:54:36.

taking the heat out of the debate. I don't know about the audience, but I

:54:37.:54:41.

feel things are chaining and I know we appreciate in terms of the

:54:42.:54:50.

donations donations that have gone into the campaign, and the high

:54:51.:54:56.

level awareness of what is happening has been taken out. We are having a

:54:57.:55:00.

debate tonight. The young man said he's having a sensible debate with

:55:01.:55:04.

lots of other people and quite rightly should be. In answer to the

:55:05.:55:08.

gentleman's question about what would happen if it's a no-vote, I

:55:09.:55:12.

believe more fiscal powers will happen for Scotland and Scotland

:55:13.:55:15.

will move on as a country. The Liberal Democrats, the Scottish

:55:16.:55:18.

Labour and the Conservatives have said they wish to have more fiscal

:55:19.:55:22.

power to take the country on to that next step. As far as I'm concerned,

:55:23.:55:26.

that is a good enough step for me. It doesn't have to be apart from the

:55:27.:55:30.

rest of the United Kingdom, it can be together.

:55:31.:55:36.

You, Sir? Just going back to the pointer making about being online.

:55:37.:55:40.

We've had some revelations this week, five businesses saying they

:55:41.:55:44.

felt intimidated by the Scottish Government that they coulden put

:55:45.:55:48.

across their views about the independence debate because they

:55:49.:55:51.

felt pressurised by a Scottish Government not to do so. That's more

:55:52.:55:53.

worrying to Government not to do so. That's more

:55:54.:55:57.

in a dark bedroom typing things on a laptop. That's taking it to another

:55:58.:56:00.

level. It's quite worrying. Can you laptop. That's taking it to another

:56:01.:56:05.

just the people in laptop. That's taking it to another

:56:06.:56:09.

sending big messages to each other, but big businesses complaining that

:56:10.:56:12.

they are being influenced or shut up really? Well, it would be news to

:56:13.:56:19.

most of us. People say that, but I honestly have not seen any evidence

:56:20.:56:24.

of that happening. Now, you were talking about the story that came

:56:25.:56:28.

out earlier this week, but the gentleman asked a question in the

:56:29.:56:32.

first place, he asked a question that assumed it was from one side,

:56:33.:56:35.

but you also asked the other question, how will it be on the

:56:36.:56:37.

19th? I totally agree with Scott question, how will it be on the

:56:38.:56:42.

Joan and Alan, I think we'll pick ourselves up and move on because we

:56:43.:56:46.

have been through things. But here is the most shocking

:56:47.:56:48.

have been through things. But here about the Scottish independence

:56:49.:56:51.

debate is, we are doing it very civilly. Scott's right, we were

:56:52.:56:53.

called all sorts of civilly. Scott's right, we were

:56:54.:56:58.

just for being unknowns or light weights. It was quite nice! Could

:56:59.:57:01.

have been heavyweights and could have been insulting! But the fact

:57:02.:57:08.

is, it's a very civilised debate. Alex Massey, the blogger, no fan of

:57:09.:57:11.

independence wrote the most shocking thing about the independence debate

:57:12.:57:14.

independence wrote the most shocking is we are all getting on with

:57:15.:57:16.

independence wrote the most shocking talking to each other and listening

:57:17.:57:20.

is the reality of it. Thank you very much.

:57:21.:57:25.

APPLAUSE Our hour

:57:26.:57:27.

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