Browse content similar to 29/10/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome, whether you're watching or listening, to our audience here, | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
Former Leader of the Scottish Conservatives Annabel Goldie. | :00:24. | :00:31. | |
The Scottish Government's Cabinet Secretary for | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
Infrastructure, responsible among other things for the Forth Road | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
Labour's newly-elected Leader in Scotland, Kezia Dugdale. | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
The Editor of MoneyWeek magazine, Merryn Somerset Webb. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
And the English musician who campaigned | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
for Scottish independence, one of many campaigns he has put | :00:48. | :00:49. | |
If you want to text or tweet, our hashtag is BBCQT. | :00:50. | :01:14. | |
Text comments to 83981, and press the red button to see what | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
Our first question, please. I would like to ask the panel, is the House | :01:20. | :01:39. | |
of Lords more in tune with the British public than our elected | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
representatives in Westminster? This is, of course, over the tax credit | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
issue, when the House of Lords voted down the House of Commons. Among | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
those voting was the newly ennobled Annabel Goldie. Is the House of | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Lords more in June with public opinion? I think the important issue | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
to remember is that the House of Commons is the elected parliament, | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
the Parliament voters elect MPs to. The house of lords is unelected. | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
Some might want to get rid of it, but I think it does a good job of | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
reviewing legislation and is needed as a secondary chamber at | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
Westminster. But I voted with the government on Monday night because I | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
thought it was wrong that an unelected House of Lords should be | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
overflowing the duly processed decisions of an elected House of | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
Commons. So I think there is a point of principle in there, but that is | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
not to say that the House of Lords proved to be a very both useful and | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
a very well-informed forum for addressing an issue which clearly | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
has generated a great deal of interest, great deal of passion, and | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
a great deal of concern, which is the matter of reforming tax credits. | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
You are saying they should not have done this and now you are beginning | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
to say they are in tune with public opinion, as the question was asking. | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
I am saying there is a conflict between assuming that an unelected | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
body like the House of Lords should be in a position to overthrow the | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
decisions of the elected parliament, the House of Commons. I believe | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
strongly that is an issue of principle. I am saying I think the | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
House of Commons is the correct place for decisions to be made. That | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
does not mean the House of Lords does not have a role, and I was | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
explaining why I think it performed a useful role. But that the end of | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
the day, and I would not hide from this, I also voted with the | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Government on Monday night because actually I do approve of what the | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
Chancellor is trying to achieve, in terms of turning our economy round | :03:45. | :03:54. | |
from a high welfare, high tax and low waged economy. I want to see us | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
give people decent wages without having to subsidise wages with tax | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
credits, which I don't think it's healthy. We are talking about who | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
has the ear of the British public, the House of Commons or the House of | :04:07. | :04:13. | |
Lords. Kezia Dugdale. They don't look like or sound like the rest of | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
the country but I am glad they were there this week. Annabel said this | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
was a point of principle. I'm a late -- afraid it wasn't. In the TV | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
debates during the election David Cameron told us he would not cut tax | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
credits. It was not in his manifesto and now he is trying to cut ?3000 | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
from families across the country. I think the Lords voted this week to | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
try to hold David Cameron to what he told the British public and I'm glad | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
they did that. That is a really good thing that that legislation has now | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
been sent back to have another look at, because this will hurt working | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
people across the country. So you do believe they are more in tune than | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
the House of Commons? No, I don't. I want to scrap the House of Lords. It | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
is important to have a second chamber to go over the details when | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
the government gets it wrong but it does not have to be full of Lords in | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
ermine robes and cloth caps. We can do it differently and it is high | :05:09. | :05:10. | |
time that we should. APPLAUSE | :05:11. | :05:20. | |
For me, I don't think the House of Lords should be there, they should | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
be abolished and elected. But practically, my mother relied on tax | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
credits for both me and my brother. If I was brought up now, that would | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
mean she would lose that money. If there was an emergency in my | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
household, say a car breaks down, washing machine, where do you turn | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
when you have no safety net? George Osborne says he wants to get rid of | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
the debt, but what actually happens is payday loans. My mum would have | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
to get a payday loan, she is in debt, and it is fine for the | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
millionaires, isn't it? APPLAUSE | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
I approve of having a second house and every democracy should have won, | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
which is why I am concerned Scotland does not have one. In this case, the | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
Lords did exactly the right thing, thinking -- given what they think | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
about the tax credit debacle. But I am not convinced that means they are | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
in tune with the country on this issue or any others. If you look at | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
the polls on this matter, there was huge public support and remains | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
public support for change to the tax credit regime. So in this case you | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
could say the Lords were more in tune with media opinion than with | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
population opinion. The woman in the front, in the 2nd row. I have to | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
disagree. Scotland does have a second tier, called the public. If | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
the government does not do what we ask, we vote them out. The Lords is | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
completely unelected and needs to be scrapped straightaway. The money we | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
save, why don't we use that to go towards what will be missing from | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
tax credits? There is no need for people to go without tax credits | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
while waiting four years on their wages to hit a living wage. It is | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
disgusting. APPLAUSE | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
On the political point, the House of Commons, after all the Tories have a | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
majority there and they were elected by the UK, do you think it is right | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
that the House of Lords, you don't want a House of Lords? I don't | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
believe in the House of Lords. Because it is not proportional | :07:25. | :07:26. | |
representation, the House of Commons is unfair anyway. Let's change it, | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
get proportional representation, as in Scotland, and when we are not | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
happy, we change the government. Kezia would know about that. The | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
first thing is that the House of Lords is a democratic abomination | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
and we should not have it. It costs a lot of money. If it does something | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
we agree with, that does not justify it and we should get rid of it. | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
There is another democratic element. The point that was made before is | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
that David Cameron was asked by you on a programme before the election | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
if he would lower tax credits and he said he would not. Lo and behold, | :08:01. | :08:07. | |
?4.5 billion of cuts comes forwards. These cuts to family tax credits | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
will help to pay for the tax reduction for those who pay | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
inheritance tax. The poorest will be subsidising some of the most well | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
off. That is not democratic either. There is a good Scots word, and when | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
George Osborne put it in a statutory instrument hoping to squeeze it | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
passed, he was rumbled. None of this justifies the House of Lords, but | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
there is no way for justifying the cut to tax credits. We talk about a | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
ladder of opportunity and the Tories are about taking away the bottom | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
three rungs for ordinary people. APPLAUSE | :08:42. | :08:49. | |
I should say, your leader in Scotland, Ruth Davidson, said the | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
tax credit cuts were not acceptable. We can't have people | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
suffering in this way. So you were voting against the wishes of the | :08:58. | :08:59. | |
Tory leader in Scotland on this occasion. What Ruth made clear was | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
that she supports the aim of the changes, but she felt there was a | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
need to look at those who might be most disproportionately affected. | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
Did you feel that? A view which I share. So why did you vote in | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
favour? Because I supported the principle of what we are trying to | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
achieve, but I have a concern about the impact for certain groups of | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
people on the lower end of the earnings scale, and I have written | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
to the Chancellor about that. Nevertheless, because you thought it | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
was wrong for the House of Lords to overrule George Osborne and the | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
Government, you voted in favour of no change. Had you won the day, | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
there would have been no change. I disagree. The Chancellor had made | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
clear he was in listening mode, and I think that was absolutely right. | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
He did not say that until afterwards. He said before that he | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
was in listening mode, and I think what has happened is a sensible | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
response to this. The Chancellor will look at this and I think that | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
is right. And he will try to ensure the transition is eased so that the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
people the gentleman was referring to, that and I is kept on that and | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
appropriate steps are taken. Do you agree with what Keith Brown said | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
that Cameron did say that he was not going to do this and then changed | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
his mind? What the Conservatives said in the manifesto was, they laid | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
out how they wanted to continue with the economic recovery. That is why I | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
want to come back to Keith, who is indicating we are living in some | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
sort of economic nightmare. We are not, we are transformed from five | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
years ago. We are transformed in terms of the many more thousands of | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
people, millions of people who have jobs. The question was about the way | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
in which you bring down the deficit and whether Cameron had given the | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
promise. In the manifesto the Conservatives put to the electorate | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
in May, they said we have to keep going with the economic recovery. It | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
is still fragile, we can't walk away from it. That means saving money in | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
a variety of areas. So what you say on Question Time in the run-up to an | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
election does not matter. What you say to David Dimbleby does not | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
matter. That never matters! Everything matters on your | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
programme, David. Billy Bragg. I think that what has happened really | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
is a slight of hand by George Osborne on a number of levels. | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
Firstly, by seeking to appropriate Labour's clothes by announcing a | :11:40. | :11:48. | |
living wage, and then finding out that he has announced a living wage | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
does not really cover in any way the amount that has been taken from | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
people by cuts in tax credits. That has left him rather embarrassingly | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
exposed. The 2nd sleight of hand was to use a statutory instrument to | :12:01. | :12:08. | |
deprive the Labour Party and the SNP and other parties opposed to these | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
tax cuts any time to hold the Government to account over this, | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
wing it into the House of Lords and get it sorted out. This is part of | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
the reason why we need to make the 2nd chamber elected. It is not only | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
because it is the biggest assembly in any democracy in the world, it | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
has 816 members. David Cameron has been the worst for this. He has put | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
more new members in there than any Prime Minister since life peerages | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
were implemented in 1958. He has put 236 peers in there. Still outvoted | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
by the other parties. Now he is turning round and saying what a bad | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
idea it is. The point of the House of Lords is not to represent the | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
people, it does not represent us in any way. But what was proven the | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
other night is the necessity of a revising chamber. We need someone to | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
stand as a backstop in our democracy, but they must be elected. | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
They must be elected. APPLAUSE | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
The reason they need to be elected, and I believe they should be | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
indirectly elected, but the reason they need to be elected is because | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
they need to stop governments, and Blair did this as well, using things | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
like statutory instruments to deprive our elected representatives | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
of the right to hold the Government of the day to account. If the 2nd | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
chamber had teeth, there is no way the Government could whiz stuff | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
through the House of Commons. Reforming the House of Lords helps | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
the House of Commons. The woman at the back. If David Cameron did not | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
lie to everybody, this would not be an issue, would it? If I go for a | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
job and I lie and get found out I would expect to be sacked. Why is he | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
not getting sacked, quite frankly? On the gangway, for throw up. I do | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
agree with the principle that the government should not be topping up | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
low wages but I am confused as to why the cuts in tax credits are | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
coming now and are not coming with the increase in wages. Merryn, what | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
is your view of that? Do you think the timing is wrong? It should have | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
been done at roughly the same time. There is an important point that has | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
not been discussed in the conversation about tax credits, | :14:30. | :14:31. | |
which plays to your point about your mother, which is that we are not | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
just paying tax credits to people in the lower percentage of income, but | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
right up the way, to people in the 2nd and third quintile. It is | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
possible on tax credits, working child credits and others to have a | :14:45. | :14:52. | |
high income. We are paying vast amounts of welfare to what we would | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
consider the middle classes, not just to the lower parts of society. | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
That has not been recognised in the media debate and was not recognised | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
in the Lords either. So this reform is absolutely vital. There has to be | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
considerable reform to welfare. The money we are paying to what most of | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
us consider the middle classes is money that is not being spent on the | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
NHS, pension disasters, education. We have to make choices and right | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
now we are making the wrong ones. APPLAUSE | :15:21. | :15:28. | |
Why isn't the free market paying a proper wage? There is a fundamental | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
failure in the free market paper per wages, because over the years the | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
rights of people to organise in the workplace have been taken away from | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
them. People need more cooperation in the workplace. What is the | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
problem, what is wrong with capitalism? There are lots of | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
problems and one of them is welfare. If a company knows wages will be | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
topped up by the state and taxpayers they have licensed to pay less. You | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
would not shop in Tesco if the people behind the tills were | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
starving to death, of course not. So they would have to pay higher wages. | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
They do not have too because we are topping it up. This is a fundamental | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
problem. There has been a big shift from Labour towards capital but it | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
is shifting back. Capitalism moves in big cycles and we are seeing a | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
proper shift back towards Labour and away from capital. In the 2nd row | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
from the back. I think this situation is ironic. | :16:19. | :16:31. | |
The House of Lords has the chief executive of next saying a person | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
can live in a certain amount of money if you are told your policies | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
are too harsh, how out of touch is the elected government and not how | :16:43. | :16:51. | |
out of touch the is House of Lords? We must go on. Before I take another | :16:52. | :17:01. | |
question, we are going to be in Tottenham next Thursday and Stoke on | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
Trent the Thursday after that. On the screen is the way to apply. I | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
will give the details at the end of the programme. With Jeremy Corbyn as | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
leader, will the Labour Party be saved in Scotland? This is being | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
watched with great interest south of the border. Keith Brown... All the | :17:25. | :17:34. | |
evidence suggests not. Since Jeremy Corbyn was elected, there are a | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
number of reasons for that. We expected to see something different | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
and that has not transpired. One of the big promises was on Trident. We | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
were going to see a real debate in the Labour Party which did not | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
happen at the conference in England. It might happen this weekend in | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn will not be there to see that. We end up with a | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
difficult situation for the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn, whether it | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
is of his making or his party's. He said, I would never press the button | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
for nuclear weapons. It is immoral. You cannot perceive the situation | :18:14. | :18:15. | |
way should be pressing a button. For a party that wants to spend ?160 | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
billion on nuclear weapons the leader says he would never use is | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
utterly immoral. Some of the promise which was there and many people | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
brought into that, some literally for ?3 in order to cast a vote. | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
Either he is a prisoner of a party that does not want to change, you do | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
not see much evidence of the kinder, nicer politics from others. I do not | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
think the changes which people expected are being followed through. | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
Who knows over time? There is no evidence as yet. A poll came out | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
which said, since being elected, he has gone down in the polls. If that | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
continues and there is no sign of a Labour revival across the UK, what | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
we are facing in Scotland is virtually perpetual Tory government. | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
There is only one way we can avoid that happening in the future. I do | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
not think that Jeremy Corbyn will oversee an increase in terms of the | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
Labour Party in Scotland. We're not seeing that so far. At every | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
opportunity, the Labour Party says the SNP is bad for everything it has | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
done. I cannot see anything positive. I do not see a bounce. | :19:27. | :19:37. | |
APPLAUSE Kezia Dugdale before the election, | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
it you said about Jeremy Corbyn, you have to convince me he can be Prime | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
Minister. You had rather a low view of him. Now he is leading the Labour | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
Party, what is your view of him? Lots of people have said it was a | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
disparaging remark. I desperately want there to be a Labour government | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
in this country. I want the Tories out. I see Labour as the only party | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
across the whole of the United Kingdom that can stand up for | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
working people. When I cast my vote for who should be Labour leader, I | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
had to focus on the idle could be Prime Minister, uniting this country | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
and making it fairer for everyone. I voted for Yvette Cooper. What I | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
would say to you, I have never said that publicly before but ask a | :20:28. | :20:29. | |
straight question and you get a straight answer. Straight talking, | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
honest politics, as Jeremy would have it. I have spent a lot of time | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
with Jeremy over the past you weeks. He is a man of tremendous | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
principle. He feels the pain of working families across this country | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
in his bones and he will transform this country with a message about | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
why it does not have to be this way. Tomorrow can be better than today. | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
He has the vision we need. I am excited about what he might set out | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
in the months ahead. If I can express your questions specifically, | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
you asked whether the Scottish Labour Party has the future. We are | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
in terrible trouble. It is why I went for the job. The values of the | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
Labour Party are as relevant as they ever have been. Believing in the | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
potential of people and using the power of government to realise that | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
potential, that is the Labour way. I want to build a fairer and more | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
equal country. In the next few months we were see Labour policy | :21:28. | :21:29. | |
platform coming forward to inspire you once again. That was met with | :21:30. | :21:39. | |
silence. Annabel Golding. I think the problem for Labour in the United | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
Kingdom, and in Scotland, people do not know what they stand for. As far | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
as I can understand, on the 1 hand, Jeremy Corbyn wants to espouse a | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
type of socialism which, in terms of his right to do that guy is totally | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
legitimate. It is a form of socialism going back 40 years to the | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
days of Harold Wilson which proved to be completely unelectable. If you | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
look at what Jeremy Corbyn has been talking about, he believes in... | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
Harold Wilson won election after election. No, he did not. He | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
eventually lost. He retired. APPLAUSE | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
What Harold Wilson did was to lead an economic legacy, which was the | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
product of Labour's economic policies, which were a complete | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
failure. It was all about how not to run an economy, how not to generate | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
wealth, create jobs and give people opportunities. That is why we are | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
headed -- we headed into the disaster of the 70s. The | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
International Monetary Fund ran the country. The thing about Jeremy | :22:53. | :23:01. | |
Corbyn, he is, I think, completely incredible on the issue of defence. | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
For me, economy and events are two of the most important obligations | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
for government. I respect that Keith has a view about Trident. I respect | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
his view and there is a clarity about the SNP position, it does not | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
want Trident. Jeremy Corbyn does not believe in Trident, he does not | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
believe in the nuclear deterrent. He is not keen on military forces. He | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
has Shadow Cabinet colleagues who do believe in Trident. In Scotland no 1 | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
knows what Labour believes. Kezia Dugdale Trident. Is that true? You | :23:34. | :23:45. | |
cannot run a party like that. Do you believe in Trident? I am a | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
multilateralist. I stood on a platform to lead by party, to lead a | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
more democratic party. I am given the power to decide our party | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
position to our membership this weekend. I think there are mixed | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
views on this position regardless of party politics. The good thing to do | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
is to be honest and frank about it. My party is not in trouble because | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
people do not know where we stood on the issue of Trident, my party is in | :24:12. | :24:21. | |
trouble... I got this message loud and clear from the general election | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
result, people thought we were run from Westminster and the Scottish | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
Labour Party did not put Scotland first. I am going to turn that | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
around. That is why have been talking about a more autonomous | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
Scottish Labour Party determining our future in Scotland. You will | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
have two parties? It is not an independent party, it is an | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
autonomous party. There are lots of examples of this across Europe. If | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
this does not work at the elections in May and the Tories get more votes | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
than you... In Scotland? I think you will find that is very unlikely. | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
Would your position as leader be on the line? That is not really for me. | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
It would be great you could say, I am resigning. I do not expect the | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
fortunes of the Labour Party in Scotland can be turned around | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
overnight. Let's just hear from some members of the audience. Let's go to | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
you over here, in the spectacles. When considering the question, we | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
should consider it on two grounds, the crucial need for a voice in | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
Scotland in the Westminster Parliament and a need for a party to | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
take into consideration Scottish issues and needs. And reiterating | :25:38. | :25:46. | |
them in the Westminster Parliament. When considering Corbyn as Leader of | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
the Labour Party, the problem, and I think it has been clearly shown in | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
the media of the incompetency he has of running the Labour Party. As the | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
panel has most kindly said, the problem he has with the Shadow | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
Cabinet, the problem he has with members of his party standing | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
against him and public are giving statements against things that he is | :26:12. | :26:20. | |
saying that the party should be focusing on. In effect you are | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
saying he cannot restore Labour in Scotland. I am saying there is a | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
competency in his leadership. You, sir. One of the biggest problems | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
with this entire thing is the fact that 60% of members in Labour voted | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
for Corbyn yet there are so many MPs within Labour who are not publicly | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
yet, but voting against him. It shows how divided Labour is. They | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
need to show more togetherness rather than having a broken apart | :26:50. | :26:57. | |
party. Togetherness means, who wins? I think they should back the leader | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
and have a debate that, at the same time, I think there should be more | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
togetherness. Labour is a party that is very much supposed to be about | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
togetherness and I feel it has gone against that. Both those comments | :27:12. | :27:18. | |
have touched on Kezia Dugdale is a real problem. The silence you heard | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
after your first comment is the sound of scepticism. The people of | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
Scotland are not stupid. They recognise that where Teva Corbyn | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
says and stands for, it does not have the support of the | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party. He can come up with some great ideas but | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
they cannot be carried through. He has the support of the leadership | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
but he does not have the support of the Parliamentary Labour Party. | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
Until that is resolved, that will not happen. You cannot expect the | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
leader of a British mainstream political party to talk about | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
independence. That is not possible. Corbyn must have something to say | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
about self-determination to the people of Scotland. I do not | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
understand why he is not talking about federalism. The answer to the | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
West Lothian question is not English votes for English laws, the answer | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
is, if you have a Scottish parliament, you have to have an | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
English Parliament. I really think if the Labour Party could come out | :28:16. | :28:22. | |
in favour of federalism, not only would they have something to talk to | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
people in Scotland about, they would also be able to speak to a lot of | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
people who feel disenfranchised in England. A new Assembly would surely | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
be elected under proportional representation, to give | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
representation to the people who are disenfranchised and voting Ukip at | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
the last election. I do not know why they are not talking about it. | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
APPLAUSE The man with the spectacles on. | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
Jeremy Corbyn will go down as the man who consolidated the two parties | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
in Scotland and England into two-party state. He is that | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
unpopular. The SNP and the Conservatives in England. You think | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
that will happen? It has already happened. I would not write him off | :29:09. | :29:18. | |
yet. Hang on. Look at what he has faced, the media onslaught, people | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
raking through his bins, cameras in his face when he goes out to collect | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
the papers. Empty of people do not want him to do well. I look beyond | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
the Parliamentary Labour Party and I see a growing political movement, | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
660,000 people signed up to be a member of the party, to support the | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
Labour Party. That is a tremendous step forward. I have said tonight I | :29:41. | :29:50. | |
did not vote for him but I am 100% loyal to him because I believe in | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
the Labour Party and I believe in what it can do to transform the | :29:54. | :29:54. | |
fortunes of this country. I wouldn't write off Jeremy Corbyn. | :29:55. | :30:05. | |
It doesn't take much for a crisis to change people's mines, and there are | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
many potential crises out there. Going back to Scotland, the | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
interesting point is that Scotland is not as left wing as it thinks it | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
is. The social attitude surveys which are done in Scotland and | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
Britain, if you flick through those, they are statistically | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
significant, and you can see that on almost every issue the Scottish, as | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
a whole, tend to think about things in the same way as the English. | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
Scotland is not, by its nature, as left wing as it likes to think it | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
is. What do you mean as it likes to think it is? When you read Scottish | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
newspapers, talk to the Scots, or if you ask them if they are more | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
left-wing than the English, they say yes. But the social attitude surveys | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
do not tell you that, they tell you that generally the Scottish and | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
English think about things in a remarkably significant way. The only | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
significant difference is the EU. My point being that it is very hard for | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
there to be two parties in Scotland that are perceived as left wing, the | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
SNP and Labour. They cannot really coexist. If you are going to have | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
separate parties, there has to be a third party. Is the SNP perceived as | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
left wing? You have certainly taken the left very firmly from Labour, no | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
doubt about that. They certainly present as. We have this quite a | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
lot, and we often get it from the Labour Party that you are not | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
redistributive, not anti-austerities. To give concrete | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
examples, but we have put to the parliament is free school meals, | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
which was opposed by the Labour Party in the parliament. We have | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
also led in terms of the council tax benefit, made sure the bedroom tax | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
did not hurt people in Scotland, unlike Wales where Labour are in | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
control. So there is a lot we do that is redistributive. We are also | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
pro-business, especially small business. The crucial point is the | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
point that Kezia made, if the Labour Party this weekend discusses trident | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
and comes out against spending ?167 billion of your money on Trident, | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
will Kezia then say to Ian Murray, the sole remaining Labour MP in | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
Scotland, when you go to London you must vote against Trident? That will | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
be the test of whether we have an autonomous Labour Party. Generally | :32:21. | :32:29. | |
speaking, most left wing Scott 's identifiers nationalists and | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
therefore vote SNP, regardless of whether or not they are as left wing | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
as they say they are. I don't understand how Scottish Labour can | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
move to the left and expect to pick up these nationalists who vote for | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
the SNP because they are nationalists. Therefore, the only | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
place you can pick up voters from the centre and the right, and Jeremy | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
Corbyn is not going to win them. All that Jeremy Corbyn is doing is | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
failing to win voters that have gone to the SNP and driving others to the | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
Tories, who by the way were one percentage point behind Labour last | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
time I checked in the polls. Nobody thought that sending a parliament to | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
Scotland would lead towards a more independent Scotland. Everybody | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
thought that it would kill the issue of independence. It didn't. Nobody | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
thought that 45% of the Scottish people would vote in favour of | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
independence but they didn't. So to sit there and tell me what is going | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
to happen to Jeremy Corbyn, mate, I think you have another thing coming. | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
I look forward to the landslide, Billy. What people want from | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
politics is changing. It is easily visible in Scotland, not yet in | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
England, but Jeremy Corbyn is a representative of that urge for | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
change. This is grassroots Labour. The reason Ed Miliband did not win | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
last time was because that was the old way of doing things, a hollowed | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
out party, top-down orders and the membership disregarded. All of this | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
is changing and the sort of excitement I saw in Scotland during | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
the independence campaign, and I was fortunate to be in Scotland on the | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
day the yes campaign were first put forward to win, we are starting to | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
feel that excitement in England because Jeremy is the leader. We | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
just have to convince first the parliamentary Labour Party and then | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
everybody else that he really does represent genuine positive change. | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
You can't convince your own party, you can't convince the electorate. | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
As I said, we first have two convince the party and I hope they | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
are all watching this and thinking about this. A few more points and | :34:32. | :34:43. | |
then another question. At the end of May when I was looking at the four | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
Labour leadership candidates, I looked at them all, Burnham, Cooper, | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
Kendall, and I joined the Scottish Green Party. I can't bear to vote | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
for any of these people. This is not the Labour Party I want to be even | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
affiliated with. And then Corbyn got nominated and, well... But I don't | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
know if Jeremy Corbyn can save the Scottish Labour Party because I | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
don't know if his MPs will let him, but I do know that none of the | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
leadership candidates had a chance, and I like Jeremy Corbyn, he has | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
popular, middle-of-the-road left-wing opinions. Polling says | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
what Jeremy Corbyn once domestically, rayon mashed | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
novelisation, save the NHS, is what people want. -- rail | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
nationalisation. Firstly, when they had a huge | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
majority in Westminster, Labour ignored Scotland and took Scottish | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
MPs for granted and thought they would always get 50 MPs up here. | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Secondly, they did the dirty work for the Tories during the referendum | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
campaign. As simple as that. APPLAUSE | :35:54. | :36:01. | |
I think we should go to another question. | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
Was it right to bail out the banks but not the steel industry? There | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
are various measures being proposed to help the steel industry but no | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
bailout. Merryn. And unpopular answer but yes, we absolutely were. | :36:20. | :36:26. | |
I think it is generally good to try and avoid bailing out industries, | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
but there is a good case for bailing out industries that are in | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
short-term trouble and systemically important to an economy and will | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
definitely return to profit. That has been the case with the banks, | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
approve or not of the way the financial industry works. It has | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
returned to profit. It is a long-term, sustainable business. | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
Other businesses are not necessarily long-term sustainable and the truth | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
is that the steel industry falls into that group. It has been in | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
trouble for a long time and is in trouble now, and I can't see it | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
being the case in five years, seven years, ten years that we suddenly | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
have a profitable steel industry that can last for the long-term. So | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
we should not, I don't think, be looking to bail out that kind of | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
industry. What we should be doing is looking to help the people that are | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
suffering as a result of that industry. So we can't help the steel | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
industry but we can help the steelworkers afterwards. Kezia | :37:22. | :37:29. | |
Dugdale, do you agree? No. I really don't. If you look at the two plants | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
in Scotland, they do road steel plate. As I understand it those | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
plants are profitable. The reason they are closing down is that Tata | :37:40. | :37:41. | |
want to make savings across the whole of their bases. I think the | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
plants in Scotland have a viable future, there is a positive future | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
for steel production in this country but we have to take steps to realise | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
that. We need some new assets in those plants so they can make more | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
than one thing. We have to protect the highly skilled engineers that | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
work in the plants. Short time working would do that, letting these | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
jobs stay for a few days per week until we can get a new company into | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
the plant to operate it. And we should use Scottish steel in | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
Scottish products, put it in the heart of our infrastructure and | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
everything we are the building. I think there is a viable future for | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
this industry that we have to believe it, not just manage the | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
decline. That is not acceptable. APPLAUSE | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
What is the Scottish Government's review? It is difficult but not | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
impossible. A few months ago, the last shipbuilding concern on the | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
Clyde was about to go to the wall. Through a lot of effort that has now | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
been saved and it is now prospering in terms of orders for new ferries. | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
You also had Prestwick airport which was going to the wall with the loss | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
of thousands of jobs in the West of Scotland and we did essentially | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
nationalise that. Coming back to the point about the banks, why did we | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
bail out the banks? We were told they were a cornerstone of the | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
system and you need the banking system. But the perception for most | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
people was that you were keeping the banks so that they could continue to | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
lend to people and businesses. But they used the money they got from us | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
to build up their capital sheets. Even now they are not lending to | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
small businesses. There is a contrast today with David Cameron in | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
Iceland. Ice and jailed the bankers. -- Icelander. Corrupting the LIBOR | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
mechanism, the cornerstone of the capitalist system, corrupting that, | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
and they are now looking to ease back on the regulations. These were | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
huge crimes, nobody has gone to jail for that. There is a court case | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
ongoing but nobody has gone to jail. In Iceland, they jailed the bankers | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
when they were found to be corrupt and we should have done the same | :39:52. | :39:52. | |
thing. APPLAUSE | :39:53. | :40:01. | |
Are you going to bail out the steel plants? As I said, the Scottish | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
Government has started working, there was a meeting today for the | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
first time with the concerns. We want to keep it viable. One last | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
word on the banks. You have said a lot on the Goldie. I think it is | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
important that politicians are realistic about what we can do in a | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
difficult situation like this and equally realistic about what we | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
cannot do. I am struck by what Keith Brown is saying because it is a | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
departure from the line of the Scottish Government, which has said | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
that if the two steel plants in Scotland can find a commercial buyer | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
it will do everything to assist that. I think that is sensible and a | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
realistic way to go forward. I think what government can also do, as is | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
happening with the UK Government, they are attempting to ensure that | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
projects within this country will procure British steel. I think that | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
is a very good way to go forward. They are providing help to people | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
affected at the moment. But I think we have to be very clear about how I | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
think not viable it is for a government to buy a failing | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
industry. If it is failing because there is not a demand for product | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
out there at a price that will keep the industry going. That is the | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
difficulty. Steele has global oversupply and the price has | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
plummeted. That is bitter, harsh and difficult for the workers in the | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
plants affected, but it does mean that when you talk, as Kezia did, | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
about trying to take it over because it is basically profitable, well, it | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
is not profitable if actually market prices will not give the company the | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
return it needs to keep the thing going. And that is the dilemma and I | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
think politicians have to be utterly realistic about where they can help. | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
They can help in many ways but they have two be realistic about what is | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
not viable. You cannot take over an industry that has not apparently got | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
a viable commercial future. It is not fair to taxpayers, not fair to | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
public services, because you create a drain on the public purse by using | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
money, sadly, for something that cannot give a return. You have made | :42:12. | :42:20. | |
the point. You, on the right. Is it possible for British industry, such | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
as the steel industry, to compete with China, India, those economies? | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
Is it your view that it is possible? I don't really think it is. I just | :42:31. | :42:40. | |
wonder if there is a way that we can produce higher quality goods and | :42:41. | :42:42. | |
encourage our industry to do that, rather than just shelving the | :42:43. | :42:55. | |
plants. Well, Adams and, going for some local colour, said there was an | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
invisible hand, capitalism worked with an invisible hand that would | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
deal with, like the laws of the jungle, would deal with businesses | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
that are not viable. This is what is being given to the steelworkers. The | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
invisible hand of capitalism is strangling their hopes for the | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
future. Whereas the bankers at RBS, the invisible hand just tickled | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
them. By the rules set down by Adam Smith, those banks should have | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
failed. We could not let them fail because of how important they are to | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
our economy. But having rescued the banks, we are letting them get up | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
and do exactly the same thing as before. We need to be making sure | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
that the banks we have nationalised, particularly the biggest, RBS, we | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
should have made it into a national bank and said, it is not going to | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
speculate on the stock market, it is going to help small to medium | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
businesses, help the community. But the Tories have a total rejection of | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
any kind of nationalisation. They see that the free market should go | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
into places like Redcar, Motherwell... You would nationalise | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
the steel industry? It should not be socialism for the bankers and | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
capitalism for the steelworkers. APPLAUSE | :44:11. | :44:20. | |
Does he convince you? Working in the financial services industry myself, | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
recently for RBS, I think it is not quite as clear-cut as that. It never | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
is for bankers! I am not a banker, I work for bank. I am just saying, for | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
bankers it is or was blurred, they never quite did it themselves. There | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
is the casino banking side of things, then there is the retail | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
side. There has been legislation trying to separate those two. Would | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
that be viable? I think it is. What about his answer on the steel | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
industry, because you made the point that it could not sell because of | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
Chinese and Indian steel? It is difficult to compete on a global | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
market. How can we expect workers in this country, with the | :45:09. | :45:10. | |
quality-of-life and lifestyles that we have, how can we expect them to | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
work for as little as people are prepared to in developing countries? | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
That is not to say it is acceptable for people in developing countries, | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
but their cost of his much lower. The man in the pink. | :45:23. | :45:33. | |
I think it is appalling the bankers were bailed out. Those at the bottom | :45:34. | :45:41. | |
of the heap are struggling. Why don't they refinanced and restart | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
the major British industries and give people a meaningful employment | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
like they have before. The Germans still have a perfectly good steel | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
industry and so do other European countries. Why can we not do that? | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
The cost of power in this country is massive. | :45:59. | :46:06. | |
APPLAUSE That is a very important point. You | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
are quite correct. Industries like steel have been suffering hugely | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
with energy charges. The bottom line remains. If global prices and | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
pressures mean you do not have a market for what you're doing at a | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
price you can sustain it, you have a problem. I was wanting to pick up | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
particularly on what you said about banking being a sustainable | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
business. I do not want to direct this question just a Cuba industries | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
in the UK seem to be disappearing more and more. One of the | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
extraordinary things about this discussion is there is a lot of | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
grandstanding. Steel is something special. Why aren't accountants | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
special? Why aren't journalists special? In my industry, jealous are | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
losing jobs every day. Two local newspapers shut down in Scotland | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
every week. I do not see anyone stepping in to save us, | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
nationalising the newspaper business. That is not happening. | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
Manufacturing is considering to be something everyone can grandstand | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
about. A still working job is not superior to an accountancy job, a | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
financial services job, a journalist job, working for a printing | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
company, it just is not and we should not behave as though it is. | :47:44. | :47:51. | |
Kezia Dugdale this is more than a job, it is an iconic Scottish | :47:52. | :48:00. | |
industry. That is grandstanding. You cannot protect the past at the | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
expense of the future. Every time you say and industry is iconic... I | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
listened to your point of view, let me say mindful that the reason the | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
cost is so low is because the Chinese are dumping steel onto our | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
markets. We can build a viable future for this industry for years | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
government money to help diversify the kind of products they make. What | :48:23. | :48:30. | |
do you mean by iconic? It is the skyline of central Scotland, to see | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
the steelworks, the pride people have in the jobs. When the steel | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
industry goes, a whole generation of Scottish history goes with it. I am | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
not prepared to see the light go out without a fight. I believe there is | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
a viable future for the industry. I applaud your passion. Nobody doubts | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
for one moment your sincerity about the issue. Under Labour 16,000 steel | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
jobs were lost under the last government. Why was this policy and | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
support not adopted then? APPLAUSE | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
The original question was about fairness and justice and how we have | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
treated bags and how we are currently treating the steel | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
industry. Until we deal with the legacy of the banking crisis and | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
hold those to account properly, and it includes possibly sequestering | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
the assets that are owned by key individuals who are responsible for | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
that, we could be using that money to finance a whole number of | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
different things. Somebody in the fourth row has had her hand up for a | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
long time. If we let the steel industry fall by the wayside, what | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
are we going to do to plug the gap? It sounds a lot like the | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
conversation we had in the 1980s under Thatcher when the coal | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
industry declined and thousands and thousands of jobs were lost yet, | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
still today, there are whole communities across the whole of | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
Scotland, the north-east of England and Wales, who are still depressed, | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
without jobs, nothing. If you are going to let the steel industry | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
fail, you need to replace it with something. | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
APPLAUSE Can a country like Britain afford to | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
lose its manufacturing base? That is what you are talking about. Can we, | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
as a modern economy, afford to have no manufacturing base? Aye first I | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
would say, a job is a job is a job. It does not matter if it is | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
manufacturing or not. We still have a manufacturing base. We have a high | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
quality manufacturing base. If you look at the North of England, there | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
is solid manufacturing and it is growing. The man in the blue shirt. | :50:52. | :50:59. | |
Why is the Forth crossing not being made with British Steel? | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
APPLAUSE Just briefly, we have a number of | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
questions. It is Scottish steel being used in the bridge. The main | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
part of the steel contract, there was no bid from anywhere in Scotland | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
was not made in Scotland. That steel is not made in Scotland any more. | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
The last point I want to make is about the banks. When they sold off | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
the shares of Lloyds, they took -- we took a ?1 billion hit. We sold | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
them off for less than they were worth all to imagine what we could | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
have done for the steel industry if we got the right rate. That shows | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
the way we treat manufacturing differently. It is not because it is | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
iconic, it is about a 50-year-old male, for example, a steel worker. | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
He knows if the steel industry goes he will not get a chance to get | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
another job. It is nothing to do the iconic nature of the industry, it is | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
an iconic industry and it is about safeguarding people stop. It is very | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
difficult in those communities to get another job. That is why we have | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
to save them. APPLAUSE | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
Time for a question from you, Jackie. Should there be any enquiry | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
into that the delay of the Chilcott enquiry and, if so, how long with | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
this take? APPLAUSE | :52:25. | :52:32. | |
We are going to get it by June or July. Billy Bragg... I really think | :52:33. | :52:42. | |
there should be. I think the process of asking people to respond to what | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
is there, I do not see why it has taken such a long time. It is | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
relatively straightforward. Consideration should have been given | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
to the sensibilities of families of service men and women who have | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
served there, some of whom never came back. The fact it has taken so | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
long as less so much speculation. It has only been bad for the idea that | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
ultimately if we do find out what Chilcott thing for those who made | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
mistakes, those who are responsible, will be held to account. We have | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
already seen Tony Blair tried to get his to Penrith in before it all | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
comes back. I am sure the Americans do have a big part to play as they | :53:20. | :53:26. | |
supplied the original intelligence which led to the dodgy dossier. | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
Whether they are trying to hold it back, I do not know. The British | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
public really does deserve to know the truth about what happened, why | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
we were involved in Iraq. The issue still divides people very heavily. | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
The sooner it comes out and the sooner we can talk about it, the | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
better it will be, not just as, but more importantly for the families | :53:48. | :53:55. | |
who lost loved ones. Kezia Dugdale has it been and Julie delayed? | :53:56. | :54:02. | |
People have said that Tony Blair might have tried to hold it up? It | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
certainly feels that way for the it should be published at the earliest | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
possible opportunity, and that should be yesterday. It does account | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
to 2 million words. It will be huge and will take people a long time to | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
get their heads around it. People need to know what has happened. Our | :54:22. | :54:29. | |
experience of Iraq has clouded our approach and attitudes towards UK | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
foreign affairs for a decade. As a country, I do not think we can ever | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
move on until we have this report. It needs to be published now. The | :54:39. | :54:47. | |
British public needs to know. Can you imagine, if you are a soldier | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
going to Iraq, you are told you are going there because of weapons of | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
mass destruction, can imagine seeing your mates being killed and then | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
finding there were no weapons of mass destruction? That would have | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
been horrific. In personnel. These families are trying to find out | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
answers. The second point... Ayew critical of the delay? I think the | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
delay is appalling. -- Ayew critical? For years later, a half | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
promise which may come out next year. We are told it will be vetted | :55:25. | :55:33. | |
for national-security reasons. What was said? Is the stuff going to be | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
lifted out of the process? APPLAUSE | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
At the very least, there has to be a democratic oversight of anything | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
that is taken out. Summary needs to look and needs to make sure they're | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
not just covering someone's embarrassment. Are you worried about | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
the announcement they will have a security check about what has been | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
said by Chilcott? I totally and stand the best racing and anger | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
about the delay. I know it has been complex and a huge form of enquiry. | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
The Prime Minister vented that frustration. He said to Sir John | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
Chilcott, we need to get this done and dusted. There are interests of | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
families, of service men and women who are over there, interests of the | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
public to know what happened and why decisions were made. As to the | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
security issues, we have still to bear in mind we have service men and | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
women engaged in conflicts elsewhere. We have a difficult | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
situation at the moment in relation to Syria. Yes, I think there may be | :56:45. | :56:54. | |
intelligent security issues. What the public is wanting and making a | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
demand for, we need this enquiry produced now, please get in public | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
as quickly as possible. We will not work -- know what is taken out for | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
security reasons, are you concerned about that? I am concerned about the | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
whole thing. I am amazed it was not time-limited in the first place. The | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
main thing that I think politicians should be considering here, trust | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
has gone from politics in the UK. It has gone across the board, not just | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
in the UK but across much of the world. This is exactly the kind of | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
reason why. You asked a simple question, you think you can get an | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
answer in less than 2 million words and you cannot and you do not. | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
We're in North London next week with writer and broadcaster Victoria | :57:47. | :57:54. | |
Coren, Chuka Umunna for Labour, and Justine Greening for the Tories. | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
The following week we'll be in Stoke-on-Trent. | :57:58. | :58:06. | |
To be in the audience for either programme - London or | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
Stoke - apply by going to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88. | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
If you are listening on Radio 5Live, you can continue the debate | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
We will debate in our own way what we have been hearing but the | :58:16. | :58:29. | |
programme has to come to an end. My thanks to the panel and all of you | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
and everyone he has come here to take part. Thank you very much | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
indeed. Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night. | :58:38. | :58:41. |