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This is London and welcome to Question Time. | 0:00:03 | 0:00:06 | |
You may be watching, you may be listening on the radio, | 0:00:13 | 0:00:16 | |
welcome and welcome to our audience here and, of course, to our panel. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
Tonight, our panel is | 0:00:19 | 0:00:20 | |
the Conservative International Development Secretary | 0:00:20 | 0:00:24 | |
Justine Greening, | 0:00:24 | 0:00:25 | |
Labour's Chuka Umunna, who returned to the back benches | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
rather than serve in Corbyn's shadow cabinet, | 0:00:28 | 0:00:31 | |
the Green Party's first appointment to the House of Lords, Jenny Jones, | 0:00:31 | 0:00:35 | |
the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens | 0:00:35 | 0:00:38 | |
and the writer, broadcaster | 0:00:38 | 0:00:39 | |
and professional poker player Victoria Coren Mitchell. | 0:00:39 | 0:00:43 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:43 | 0:00:45 | |
And as ever, if you want to join in the debate | 0:00:55 | 0:00:57 | |
and the argument that goes on here tonight, you can text | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
or tweet our hashtag, "bbcqt", you can follow us at @BBCQuestionTime, | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
text comments to 83981, push the red button to see what others are saying. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
Let's have our first question from Zayid Ahmed, please. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
Would you support junior doctors if they decide to go on strike? | 0:01:12 | 0:01:15 | |
Would you support junior doctors if they decide to go on strike? | 0:01:15 | 0:01:18 | |
Justine Greening. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:20 | |
Well, I think what needs to happen | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
is people need to get around the table | 0:01:22 | 0:01:24 | |
and talk through to getting a proper solution | 0:01:24 | 0:01:27 | |
to this junior doctors contract change. | 0:01:27 | 0:01:31 | |
What we're trying to do is make sure | 0:01:31 | 0:01:33 | |
that the NHS can work seven days a week | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
and really provide outstanding services. At the same time, | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
we also know that many junior doctors are completely overworked | 0:01:39 | 0:01:43 | |
at the weekend and in fact there are some that work over 91 hours a week. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:48 | |
So these two things go hand in hand. | 0:01:48 | 0:01:50 | |
Three years ago, the government started negotiating with the BMA. | 0:01:50 | 0:01:54 | |
Clearly we've not reached a conclusion with them yet. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
Jeremy Hunt put a new, revised offer on the table yesterday | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
and I think what we all need now is for people to perhaps set aside | 0:02:01 | 0:02:06 | |
the discussions and the arguments that they've had up until now | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
and just get round the table | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
and work through these differences, because in the end... | 0:02:11 | 0:02:14 | |
Would you oppose them if they decided to strike? | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
Would the government say, "That's not right, you shouldn't," | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
or would they say, "Well, we've done our best, | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
"you've got an absolute right to go on strike." | 0:02:22 | 0:02:24 | |
I've talked to junior doctors in my constituency | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
and I understand their frustration, | 0:02:27 | 0:02:29 | |
so I just think in the end they're hugely committed to the NHS | 0:02:29 | 0:02:32 | |
and I think the best thing we can all do | 0:02:32 | 0:02:35 | |
is actually get round the table and talk, find a resolution | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
that means they don't feel they need to do that any more. Victoria. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:42 | |
Now, as I understand it, it's rather difficult, though, | 0:02:42 | 0:02:44 | |
for them to get round the table and negotiate, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:46 | |
because haven't they been told by Jeremy Hunt | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
that if they don't basically agree all the proposals, | 0:02:48 | 0:02:51 | |
it'll be imposed on them? | 0:02:51 | 0:02:52 | |
So I think they're allowed to quibble with one thing out of 23. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
How can they sit down and negotiate? | 0:02:55 | 0:02:56 | |
They're being too... APPLAUSE | 0:02:56 | 0:03:00 | |
To answer the question, I would. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:05 | |
I'd support them if they went on strike, | 0:03:05 | 0:03:07 | |
because not just the issue of, obviously, | 0:03:07 | 0:03:09 | |
the immediate medical question, | 0:03:09 | 0:03:10 | |
do you really want to be treated by somebody | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
who's working a 91-hour week? | 0:03:13 | 0:03:14 | |
When you try and do the maths of how many hours that is a day, | 0:03:14 | 0:03:17 | |
it's sort of terrible. There's a bigger question as well, though, | 0:03:17 | 0:03:20 | |
which is, I believe the idea is to define overtime as after 10pm | 0:03:20 | 0:03:26 | |
and Sundays. | 0:03:26 | 0:03:28 | |
I think most of us are worried, in the age of mobile phones | 0:03:28 | 0:03:31 | |
and the internet, I think we probably all worry | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
where does work finish and life begin, don't we? | 0:03:34 | 0:03:36 | |
When is our home time? | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
Doesn't matter about doctors or anything else - | 0:03:39 | 0:03:41 | |
if the government is ready to define home time as after 10pm and Sundays, | 0:03:41 | 0:03:48 | |
is think our way of life generally is going to be sunk. | 0:03:48 | 0:03:50 | |
The French go on strike | 0:03:50 | 0:03:51 | |
if their lunch hour is cut down to four hours from the normal five, | 0:03:51 | 0:03:55 | |
so I think if doctors are going to be in the vanguard of saying, | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
"No, I'm sorry, | 0:03:58 | 0:03:59 | |
"if you're not at home by 8pm and on a full weekend, you're on overtime," | 0:03:59 | 0:04:03 | |
if they're going to defend that, good luck to them. | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:06 | 0:04:09 | |
I'm a junior doctor and I've been balloted for strike action today | 0:04:12 | 0:04:16 | |
and thank you, Victoria, for bringing up something | 0:04:16 | 0:04:19 | |
that not many people are aware of. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:20 | |
The government is quite ready to say | 0:04:20 | 0:04:22 | |
that the BMA won't come back to the table. | 0:04:22 | 0:04:24 | |
What a lot of people do not realise | 0:04:24 | 0:04:27 | |
is that the BMA is unable to come back to the table | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
until we agree to 22 non-negotiable preconditions. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:33 | |
In my view, that is not a negotiation. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:36 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:36 | 0:04:39 | |
Hold on a second. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:42 | |
Hold on a second, Peter Hitchens, then you can come back. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
Peter Hitchens. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:46 | |
I don't think doctors should ever go on strike. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:48 | |
I just don't think it's something they should do. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:50 | |
It's one of those things where you have to say, | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
this is a job which requires you to be available at all times. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:57 | |
It doesn't mean I don't sympathise with the case, | 0:04:57 | 0:05:00 | |
it just means I think the strike weapon is not one you can use. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:04 | |
The other thing which seems to me to be very noticeable | 0:05:04 | 0:05:08 | |
is that the doctors have completely ceased to trust Mr Hunt | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
and there doesn't seem to be any real communication between them. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
I very much hope that the government finds some way | 0:05:14 | 0:05:17 | |
of reaching a settlement which doesn't involve the doctors' strike, | 0:05:17 | 0:05:21 | |
for the sake of all the patients who will suffer as a result of that, | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
because they will. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:26 | |
I remember as an industrial reporter, | 0:05:26 | 0:05:28 | |
any pledge one ever had from any group that the public | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
would not suffer from any withdrawal of emergency service | 0:05:31 | 0:05:34 | |
was never actually fulfilled. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
It always does hurt people, so I think it should be avoided, | 0:05:36 | 0:05:39 | |
but I think it may have to be avoided by Mr Hunt departing | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
and being replaced by somebody better able to negotiate. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:05:46 | 0:05:48 | |
Let's... Yeah, finish your point. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:50 | |
What are these...? You say you're only able to negotiate one point? | 0:05:50 | 0:05:53 | |
Yes. Which is that? I can't remember off the top of my head | 0:05:53 | 0:05:56 | |
which point exactly it was, but there were 22 non-negotiable points. | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
What I wanted to say was | 0:05:59 | 0:06:00 | |
that we have 50,000 junior doctors whistle-blowing. | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
Jeremy Hunt says he endorses whistle-blowing in the NHS. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
We are standing up and saying this contract is unsafe, | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
it's going to be fatal for the NHS | 0:06:10 | 0:06:12 | |
and he will not listen to these 50,000 whistle-blowers. OK. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:15 | |
You up there, second row from the back. | 0:06:15 | 0:06:17 | |
I also agree that, obviously, if they do go on strike, | 0:06:19 | 0:06:21 | |
it's not a good idea, but I think that it actually shows | 0:06:21 | 0:06:24 | |
how bad the situation is that these people | 0:06:24 | 0:06:26 | |
who know how important their jobs are | 0:06:26 | 0:06:28 | |
think that the only option is to go on strike, | 0:06:28 | 0:06:30 | |
because they're obviously not being heard | 0:06:30 | 0:06:32 | |
and issues aren't being sorted out, | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
so they believe that striking is the only option | 0:06:34 | 0:06:36 | |
and that just shows how bad it really is. OK. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:38 | |
And you, sir, in the second row. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:40 | |
Is a strike really the best way to get the public onside anyway? | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
When the Tube drivers did it, | 0:06:43 | 0:06:45 | |
it didn't really win me their support | 0:06:45 | 0:06:47 | |
when I had a three-hour journey home from work. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
You think they would be wrong to strike? | 0:06:49 | 0:06:53 | |
Not necessarily wrong, but it's not going to win their support from me. | 0:06:53 | 0:06:57 | |
Chuka Umunna, what do you think? | 0:06:57 | 0:06:59 | |
I agree with what the lady just said. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
Which lady? The last contributor. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:05 | |
I don't support strike action, because it's going to disrupt | 0:07:05 | 0:07:08 | |
the services provided to my constituents, | 0:07:08 | 0:07:11 | |
but I'm certainly not going to condemn the doctors for doing it | 0:07:11 | 0:07:15 | |
and, really, this is emblematic of the cack-handed approach | 0:07:15 | 0:07:20 | |
this government has adopted in relation to our NHS generally. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
Dr Sarah Wollaston... APPLAUSE | 0:07:24 | 0:07:28 | |
Dr Sarah Wollaston is the Conservative chair | 0:07:28 | 0:07:30 | |
of the Health Select Committee in the House of Commons. | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
She is herself a former GP | 0:07:33 | 0:07:34 | |
and she has criticised the Health Secretary | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
for basically negotiating in the media | 0:07:37 | 0:07:39 | |
with the doctors, without properly negotiating with them direct. | 0:07:39 | 0:07:43 | |
Is what he's proposing wrong, apart from the way he's negotiating? | 0:07:43 | 0:07:48 | |
Peter says his way of negotiating is pretty hopeless, | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
but what about the issue of increasing the pay by 11%? | 0:07:51 | 0:07:54 | |
Well, my biggest concern, and the junior doctor - | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
I didn't get your name, I'm sorry - just touched on it, | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
listening to the junior doctors I have in my constituency | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
and also seeing some of the reports... | 0:08:04 | 0:08:06 | |
Look, the pay, actually, I don't think is necessarily | 0:08:06 | 0:08:08 | |
the biggest thing here for many of the junior doctors concerned. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
You don't become a doctor because you want to make money. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:14 | |
You become a doctor because you want to care for people | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
and save lives, | 0:08:17 | 0:08:19 | |
but the issue here is that one of the things they're going | 0:08:19 | 0:08:22 | |
to be doing is taking away the financial penalty | 0:08:22 | 0:08:25 | |
which applies to hospitals where they overwork junior doctors | 0:08:25 | 0:08:29 | |
and this obviously acts as a deterrent | 0:08:29 | 0:08:31 | |
and prevents our junior doctors becoming so overworked, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
so exhausted that that impacts on the treatment that we're getting. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
That is a big concern. | 0:08:38 | 0:08:40 | |
I think the second thing is in a recent survey, | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
I think 70% of junior doctors are saying that | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
if Jeremy Hunt does what he is threatening to do, | 0:08:46 | 0:08:48 | |
which is impose what is currently on the table on junior doctors, | 0:08:48 | 0:08:52 | |
70% of them say they will go abroad. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:54 | |
I'm also worried because of the changes with have been made | 0:08:54 | 0:08:57 | |
to the rota-ing for weekends and evenings and how you get paid, | 0:08:57 | 0:09:00 | |
that you're actually going to find that it's very hard | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
to find junior doctors prepared to do that. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:05 | |
But as I said, this comes on top | 0:09:05 | 0:09:07 | |
of a wasted ?3 billion reorganisation of the NHS | 0:09:07 | 0:09:09 | |
we were promised we wouldn't get, rising waiting lists | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
and it's being handled in a completely cack-handed manner. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:17 | |
It's disgraceful. You, sir. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:19 | |
Are we not taking a very short-term view here, | 0:09:19 | 0:09:21 | |
where we try and save a bit of money | 0:09:21 | 0:09:23 | |
and then end up driving incredibly skilled, well-trained, | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
young professionals that want to dedicate their lives | 0:09:27 | 0:09:31 | |
to working in the NHS and drive them away | 0:09:31 | 0:09:33 | |
because the morale within staff that work in the NHS is being depleted | 0:09:33 | 0:09:38 | |
day after day, not only by politicians that say | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
that it's about money, which it completely isn't, | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
but also with just being overworked and drained | 0:09:44 | 0:09:49 | |
and that is a pathway to destroying the NHS. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
Jenny, I'll come to you in a moment, | 0:09:53 | 0:09:54 | |
but Justine... APPLAUSE | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
..can you answer his point? | 0:09:56 | 0:09:58 | |
Two things - first of all, this isn't actually about money, | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
it's not about saving money and, actually, | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
junior doctors will be for the first time having a cap | 0:10:04 | 0:10:07 | |
on the amount of hours they can work | 0:10:07 | 0:10:10 | |
so that they don't have to work unsafe levels of hours, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
as they do now and, in fact, | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
if you go on the NHS Employers website, | 0:10:16 | 0:10:18 | |
there's actually a pay calculator there where you can go | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
and check directly, if you're a junior doctor, | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
how this new contract is going to affect you and, actually, | 0:10:23 | 0:10:27 | |
overwhelmingly, junior doctors will be doing better. | 0:10:27 | 0:10:30 | |
They certainly won't be doing worse. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
Doing better in terms of the money or the hours they work? | 0:10:32 | 0:10:35 | |
Well, we'll be capping the hours. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
At the moment, there's around 500 junior doctors | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
who routinely end up breaching hours. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:41 | |
Can you guarantee, Justine, therefore, | 0:10:41 | 0:10:43 | |
that after the contract comes into effect, | 0:10:43 | 0:10:46 | |
on the whole, junior doctors will be working less hours | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
than at the moment? | 0:10:49 | 0:10:51 | |
Yes, in the sense that... You're giving a guarantee? ..at the moment, | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
at the moment, | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
junior doctors in some cases are working over 91 hours a week. | 0:10:56 | 0:10:59 | |
That's not good for them and it's not good for the NHS. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:01 | |
Because they're forced to or cos they choose to? | 0:11:01 | 0:11:03 | |
Well, partly because of the way the system currently works | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
and one of the problems around that | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
is how the junior doctors' contract worked, | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
but I'd like to just come back to the point that the lady over there | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
was making, which is I think, actually, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:18 | |
we do need to get back round the table | 0:11:18 | 0:11:21 | |
and work our way through this in the end. | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
We can have a debate on Question Time, | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
but what's really going to fix this is the BMA getting back round | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
the table with Jeremy Hunt and I hope that over the coming days, | 0:11:29 | 0:11:32 | |
that can happen... Do you think that Jeremy Hunt | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
can remove this ridiculous gun to the head | 0:11:35 | 0:11:37 | |
of the 25 non-negotiable points in order for them to negotiate? | 0:11:37 | 0:11:41 | |
The BMA will get back round the table | 0:11:41 | 0:11:43 | |
as soon as Jeremy Hunt removes the preconditions | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
and we have negotiation. I want to come back to you afterwards | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
to see what you made of what Justine said. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:49 | |
Jenny Jones. This 11% pay rise sounds very good | 0:11:49 | 0:11:51 | |
until you look at the conditions and then you understand, actually, | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
that to get a decent salary, | 0:11:55 | 0:11:57 | |
junior doctors are probably going to have to work even more hours | 0:11:57 | 0:12:00 | |
and that is definitely unsafe. | 0:12:00 | 0:12:02 | |
There's also the fact, of course, | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
that junior doctors are probably nearly at the end of their tether, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:08 | |
they are exhausted, and they could easily decide to go abroad. | 0:12:08 | 0:12:11 | |
That means all of our investment in their training, in their education, | 0:12:11 | 0:12:15 | |
has gone and it's wasted, so this, actually, is a very false move. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:19 | |
We all know the NHS is understaffed, | 0:12:19 | 0:12:22 | |
underfunded, under-loved, undervalued, | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
and it's time that this government, | 0:12:26 | 0:12:27 | |
instead of trying to break it down piecemeal and sell it off, | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
actually understood it's a real, real social asset | 0:12:30 | 0:12:32 | |
and should be supported. | 0:12:32 | 0:12:34 | |
OK. APPLAUSE | 0:12:34 | 0:12:35 | |
And yes, I will support the strike. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:42 | |
WOULD support the strike, if it happens. | 0:12:42 | 0:12:44 | |
It was a really eloquent defence of doctors | 0:12:44 | 0:12:46 | |
and the difficult situation they're in from you, Chuka, | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
but at the end of the day, | 0:12:49 | 0:12:50 | |
how can you as a supposedly Labour MP, | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
when doctors are in this position, | 0:12:53 | 0:12:54 | |
when they're not being negotiated with, when they're out of options, | 0:12:54 | 0:12:58 | |
not support their right as a body of workers to strike? | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
Your party was built on unions. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
I support their right to strike | 0:13:03 | 0:13:04 | |
and I'm not condemning them for going on strike, | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
but, equally, I represent 100,000 people and I want to make sure | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
that they can benefit from the services | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
that they need to be healthy. | 0:13:13 | 0:13:15 | |
Ultimately, I owe my ultimate duty | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
to the constituents that I represent. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
All right, I'll take one more point, then we'll go on to another question. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:23 | |
Women in the second row from the back, there. | 0:13:23 | 0:13:25 | |
I've got two points - first of all, I work in a hospital setting | 0:13:25 | 0:13:30 | |
and I work with doctors | 0:13:30 | 0:13:31 | |
and the other day, | 0:13:31 | 0:13:33 | |
I was just really struck by one of the doctors | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
who was already on shift and she said, "Just another 12 hours to go," | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
and you could see that that was a struggle for her | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
and she said the way to cope is caffeine and chocolate | 0:13:42 | 0:13:46 | |
and like I said, I was just really struck by that. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:49 | |
The second point I just wanted to make, or ask, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
was if not strike, what's the alternative? | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
Talk? | 0:13:55 | 0:13:56 | |
This is the key thing. I'm afraid this is just a lot of hot air | 0:13:56 | 0:13:59 | |
and it is true what the chap said - your exact words were, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:01 | |
"I wouldn't support the strike, but I wouldn't blame them for doing it." | 0:14:01 | 0:14:05 | |
We just can't have this from politicians - | 0:14:05 | 0:14:06 | |
"I love everyone, everyone's right, no-one's wrong." | 0:14:06 | 0:14:09 | |
You're so firmly on the fence... Victoria... | 0:14:09 | 0:14:11 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:14:11 | 0:14:13 | |
Victoria, it's very easy for you to say that, | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
but I represent people who often will be in need | 0:14:19 | 0:14:22 | |
of very serious treatment and if I was to support strike action | 0:14:22 | 0:14:25 | |
which was to hinder the treatment that they were getting, | 0:14:25 | 0:14:28 | |
that would be the wrong thing to do, in my view. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
It's not easy for me to say that. It is easy for you to say it. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
No, it isn't - I need doctors, I've got a baby, | 0:14:33 | 0:14:35 | |
I want doctors to be available... | 0:14:35 | 0:14:36 | |
It will get a clap, but in the end, it's not going to do anything. | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
No, it won't get a clap. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:40 | |
That chap there who said it's quite understandable that striking | 0:14:40 | 0:14:43 | |
is not the way to get public sympathy - | 0:14:43 | 0:14:44 | |
it never is, it's always the double bind | 0:14:44 | 0:14:46 | |
that workers have been trapped in. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:48 | |
Transport workers, doctors - they want the same thing as we do, | 0:14:48 | 0:14:50 | |
safety, but how to go about getting it? | 0:14:50 | 0:14:52 | |
Their means of getting it will alienate people, | 0:14:52 | 0:14:54 | |
it won't get support, but they're stuck. | 0:14:54 | 0:14:57 | |
No-one will listen. | 0:14:57 | 0:14:58 | |
But what is the alternative? There is no alternative. | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
They need to strike. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:02 | |
OK. APPLAUSE | 0:15:02 | 0:15:04 | |
We'll go on, I want to get through some questions, | 0:15:05 | 0:15:08 | |
but just before we go to the next one, | 0:15:08 | 0:15:10 | |
Stoke-on-Trent next week, Belfast the week after that, | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
if you want to make a note of it. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
Stoke-on-Trent next week, Belfast the week after it. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
The details are there on the screen and I'll give them at the end, | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
but let's have a question from Gary Wilson, please. | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
Following the suspected bombing | 0:15:23 | 0:15:24 | |
of a Russian aeroplane in Egypt this week, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:27 | |
is it time to take full military action against IS? | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
Peter Hitchens. No. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:32 | |
First of all, it's suspected and not proven | 0:15:32 | 0:15:35 | |
and we shouldn't rush to do things of this kind. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
Secondly, the idea that taking military action | 0:15:38 | 0:15:41 | |
against Islamic State is going to reduce the terrorist risk | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
is an absurdity. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:47 | |
The military action which this country | 0:15:47 | 0:15:50 | |
and the United States in particular have taken in the Middle East | 0:15:50 | 0:15:53 | |
and the other interventions which we've undertaken in the Arab world | 0:15:53 | 0:15:57 | |
over the past ten or 15 years and indeed in Afghanistan | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
have increased the risk to us repeatedly. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:03 | |
We have no idea what we're doing in these places. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:05 | |
We destroyed the stability of Iraq | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
and replaced it with the chaos out of which IS grew. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
We've destabilised Syria and turned millions | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
of reasonably contented people into corpses and refugees, | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
we wrecked Libya and turned that into a failed state | 0:16:17 | 0:16:20 | |
with our brilliant intervention there. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
What is it that makes us think, still, after all these stupid, | 0:16:22 | 0:16:27 | |
unforgiveable failures of incompetence and ignorance, | 0:16:27 | 0:16:31 | |
that we are going by another military intervention | 0:16:31 | 0:16:33 | |
suddenly to make it all right? | 0:16:33 | 0:16:35 | |
It really is time that as a country we realise that we have... | 0:16:35 | 0:16:38 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
Well, Justine Greening, your Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
said today it was morally indefensible Britain was relying | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
on other countries to bomb Islamic State targets. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
The French didn't agonise over it, he said, | 0:16:57 | 0:16:59 | |
but it's morally indefensible for us just to stand back. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:02 | |
What's your view? First of all, Isil is a threat to the UK. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:06 | |
We've seen that and we need to take steps to deal with it. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:10 | |
At the moment, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:11 | |
we're part of the coalition action against Isil in Iraq, | 0:17:11 | 0:17:15 | |
but, of course, Isil's also in Syria | 0:17:15 | 0:17:17 | |
and we're not able to be part of taking action against them, | 0:17:17 | 0:17:21 | |
so we've got half a strategy, which is why what we want to do | 0:17:21 | 0:17:24 | |
is build a consensus so that we can win a vote in Parliament | 0:17:24 | 0:17:28 | |
to actually have a proper strategy that means we can also play our role | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
in trying to tackle Isil in Syria and in the meantime, | 0:17:31 | 0:17:35 | |
the other thing we need to see is for the Russians to actually be part | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
of that coalition tackling Isil, | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
rather than doing what they're doing at the moment, | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
which is actually bombing the Free Syrian Army | 0:17:44 | 0:17:46 | |
and the Syrian moderate opposition | 0:17:46 | 0:17:48 | |
is going to be part of Syria's future, | 0:17:48 | 0:17:50 | |
so they shouldn't be taking action against them. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
Can I just challenge that? | 0:17:52 | 0:17:53 | |
This constant chorus from the government | 0:17:53 | 0:17:55 | |
about these "moderates" in Syria. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:57 | |
The "moderates" in Syria are exactly the same people who they urge us | 0:17:57 | 0:18:01 | |
to be on guard against in schools and everywhere else in Britain. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:04 | |
They're not moderates - they're utterly and completely dedicated | 0:18:04 | 0:18:09 | |
to the extremist Islamic cause | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
and we propose to back them, because, actually, | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
British foreign policy is not made in London any more. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
It's made in Saudi Arabia | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
and our... APPLAUSE | 0:18:19 | 0:18:21 | |
Our attitude towards all these things is governed | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
by our desire to please Saudi Arabia and no other sense at all. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
Justine, just reply to that, | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
then I'll come to you in the second row. Thank you. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
I actually met the leader | 0:18:33 | 0:18:34 | |
of the Syrian moderate opposition in Parliament yesterday. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:38 | |
He wasn't the kind of person that you've just talked about. | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
These are people who are standing up against a brutal Assad regime | 0:18:41 | 0:18:45 | |
that's barrel bombing ordinary civilians in Syria. | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
They talked to me about how there are half a million Syrians now | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
who are totally cut off from any help that can be provided to them | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
and they need the rest of the world to provide assistance, | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
and also to help them tackle Isil too, so that in the end of this, | 0:19:00 | 0:19:04 | |
when we do reach a political settlement, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:06 | |
there's a Syria there for them to build a future again in. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:10 | |
How can you... Hang on. | 0:19:10 | 0:19:11 | |
No, I'm sorry, | 0:19:11 | 0:19:12 | |
how can you claim to be against the supposed tyranny of Assad | 0:19:12 | 0:19:16 | |
when this week, your Prime Minister has welcomed the leader of Egypt, | 0:19:16 | 0:19:21 | |
who recently killed hundreds of his own people and runs a regime | 0:19:21 | 0:19:26 | |
if not as repressive as Assad, similarly repressive? | 0:19:26 | 0:19:30 | |
How can you claim to be principled in this matter? | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
You, sir. You're not. | 0:19:33 | 0:19:34 | |
Let me just say I'm fed up with all these wars in these countries. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
They need to come to an end. Let me say to you, Chuka, | 0:19:37 | 0:19:40 | |
that Tony Blair was responsible for the Iraq War, | 0:19:40 | 0:19:43 | |
he needs to be in jail. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:45 | |
Let me say this - Jenny Jones, your own leader told this nation, | 0:19:45 | 0:19:49 | |
she said, "Oh, if you're part of Isis, | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
"you're not a risk to this country." | 0:19:52 | 0:19:54 | |
Let me say this - they are a risk to this country | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
and if they go to another country, | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
they should never be allowed back in this country again. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
It's immoral that they are. All right. | 0:20:02 | 0:20:04 | |
Chuka Umunna, perhaps you'd start on that and then, Jenny Jones, | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
we'll come to you. | 0:20:07 | 0:20:09 | |
Well, I mean, I didn't support the action in Iraq that happened | 0:20:09 | 0:20:13 | |
under the last Labour government - I was opposed to it. | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
But I think, taking a step back, there are instances | 0:20:16 | 0:20:20 | |
when the international community should have intervened | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
and acted but sat on its hands, like in Bosnia-Herzegovina | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
and also Rwanda, where I think, looking back with hindsight, | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
we would have preferred that the international community acted. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
So I think to take a view that all military intervention | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
and action is necessarily a negative thing and cannot save lives | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
and cannot make a positive impact is wrong. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:45 | |
I don't have anything in principle... | 0:20:45 | 0:20:47 | |
I don't have any principal objection to military intervention, | 0:20:47 | 0:20:51 | |
if the questioner was meaning | 0:20:51 | 0:20:52 | |
whether or not there should be a military intervention in Syria | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
going beyond Iraq, but I think the key question is whether it can | 0:20:55 | 0:21:00 | |
save lives and whether it can make a positive difference, and for me... | 0:21:00 | 0:21:03 | |
The things I'm most concerned about - | 0:21:03 | 0:21:05 | |
what is the legal basis for the intervention? | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
I think on the whole you would want a UN resolution. | 0:21:08 | 0:21:11 | |
Is there support amongst the international | 0:21:11 | 0:21:13 | |
community for intervention? | 0:21:13 | 0:21:15 | |
Particularly the powers in that area - Turkey, Qatar, | 0:21:15 | 0:21:18 | |
others in the region. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:20 | |
What are the military objectives and are they achievable? | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
What is - importantly, learning the lessons from Iraq - | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
the plan for after? | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
And once we have been given the information to make | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
a judgment on that, then you can judge whether military | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
intervention on the part of the UK would actually make a difference. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
Justine talks about what the government would like to do, | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
what it wouldn't like to do. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
It hasn't actually put a proposal to the House of Commons | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
to consider yet. I think it's at that point that we can actually make | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
a judgment as to what to do. | 0:21:48 | 0:21:49 | |
But floating ideas and trying to put feelers out in the media | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
or talking to Members of Parliament... | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
Formally put forward some proposals and then we can consider | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
whether it's the right thing - not just in our national security | 0:21:57 | 0:22:00 | |
interest - but whether actually it can make a positive difference. | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
That's a proper way to do it, in my view. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
Jenny Jones. Bombing anywhere... What's your answer for his point? | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
..is never an answer. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
The fact is, the US has been bombing Syria for 14 months | 0:22:11 | 0:22:15 | |
and the situation has not improved, and if anything, | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
it has got much, much worse. I want to pick up on something Peter said. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:21 | |
He said that we destabilised the Middle East, | 0:22:21 | 0:22:26 | |
and the big problem I have at the moment is we are not taking | 0:22:26 | 0:22:29 | |
responsibility for what we have done. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
I was in Calais last Friday and met some of the 6,000 refugees, | 0:22:31 | 0:22:34 | |
many of them from Syria, but all from warzones. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
These are people who don't want to be there - | 0:22:37 | 0:22:39 | |
they don't even really want to be in Britain. | 0:22:39 | 0:22:41 | |
What they want to be is back home, safe. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:44 | |
They want to be free from threats of beheading and crucifixion | 0:22:44 | 0:22:48 | |
and rape, and the fact is they are there | 0:22:48 | 0:22:51 | |
because we have been bombing at various times... | 0:22:51 | 0:22:55 | |
What action, if any, would you think we or other countries should take? | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
I think Justine was absolutely right - | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
the next step is that all the countries involved have to | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
sit down and find some sort of diplomatic means. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:06 | |
They have to start talking. They've got to stop bombing. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
The idea that the US | 0:23:09 | 0:23:11 | |
and Russia are now bombing the same country is horrendous - | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
there could easily be clashes - so we have to sit down. | 0:23:15 | 0:23:19 | |
I am not a patient person and, you know, it's difficult for me | 0:23:19 | 0:23:23 | |
to say we have to sit down and talk but quite honestly, | 0:23:23 | 0:23:25 | |
bombing has not worked. | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
Isn't it worth noting that Isis was able to grow because of our | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
intervention and because of our destabilising of the region? | 0:23:37 | 0:23:40 | |
Surely if we intervene again this is going to give rise to | 0:23:40 | 0:23:43 | |
something even worse. And the woman behind you. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:45 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:45 | 0:23:47 | |
I think what has filled the nation and people around the world is | 0:23:47 | 0:23:51 | |
the unilateral...or ballot for interventions of these countries | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
and not working as a unit like they did with Nazis. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
They were able to conquer Nazis when they came together as a body, | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
but everyone is going into things... | 0:24:01 | 0:24:04 | |
Different countries unilaterally - | 0:24:04 | 0:24:05 | |
Britain went into Iraq, America went into Iraq, Afghanistan. | 0:24:05 | 0:24:10 | |
Individual countries would never be able to conquer this, so unless | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
they come together as a body, they are going to create more problems. | 0:24:12 | 0:24:16 | |
And you. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:17 | |
I want to say that Isil is a new phenomenon, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:19 | |
not only because the Iraqi intervention, | 0:24:19 | 0:24:22 | |
the Western intervention. But now we have Isil in Libya, | 0:24:22 | 0:24:25 | |
we have Isil in Egypt where previously we didn't have any, | 0:24:25 | 0:24:28 | |
and that's because the West is not supporting the transition | 0:24:28 | 0:24:31 | |
to democracy in the Middle East. | 0:24:31 | 0:24:33 | |
The Gulf countries and the West have... As Peter said, | 0:24:33 | 0:24:36 | |
Sisi was here this week and this man has killed thousands of people | 0:24:36 | 0:24:40 | |
and he has been received with great honours in the UK. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
Can you imagine that...? | 0:24:43 | 0:24:45 | |
You know, there's a risk of a bomb on a plane on the Russian jet. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:48 | |
Actually having...such a security breach having happened, | 0:24:48 | 0:24:52 | |
and he's presenting himself as the man of stability. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:54 | |
He's the one who's going to beat Isil in Libya, | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
and I think that that is absolutely... | 0:24:57 | 0:24:59 | |
It's not only military. | 0:24:59 | 0:25:01 | |
You don't have to bomb people in the Middle East to stop Isil, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
you've got to stop people turning to Isil as a solution. | 0:25:04 | 0:25:08 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
We want the ballot box back | 0:25:14 | 0:25:16 | |
and because the UK is welcoming a man who | 0:25:16 | 0:25:19 | |
threw our votes into the rubbish bin in Egypt, | 0:25:19 | 0:25:23 | |
then this is a very bad sign for the region | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
and I think something should... The opposite should have been done. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
He should never have been welcomed here. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:25:31 | 0:25:34 | |
I mean, I don't have a sophisticated response to this. I think it's... | 0:25:34 | 0:25:39 | |
People find themselves in a terrible position. On the one hand... | 0:25:39 | 0:25:42 | |
The stakes seem so high - is it, as you say, like sitting back, | 0:25:42 | 0:25:45 | |
whether it's Bosnia-Herzegovina, | 0:25:45 | 0:25:47 | |
whether it's Germany invading Czechoslovakia...? | 0:25:47 | 0:25:49 | |
Is it sitting back and not helping when we could help | 0:25:49 | 0:25:51 | |
and letting people die? That's awful. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:53 | |
Or is it bombing and causing mass death and more instability? | 0:25:53 | 0:25:57 | |
That's awful. And I sort of... | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
I feel like 20 years ago we rather innocently imagined that the people | 0:26:00 | 0:26:04 | |
that took the decisions knew something we didn't | 0:26:04 | 0:26:07 | |
and were going to do something competent. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:09 | |
And what happened with Iraq was... | 0:26:09 | 0:26:12 | |
Even if they had a secret evil agenda to take | 0:26:12 | 0:26:15 | |
control of the region, they failed even in that. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:19 | |
And it was so incompetent that I think it's terribly frightening | 0:26:19 | 0:26:23 | |
to think the same sort of people are making the same | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
sort of decisions again. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
And either way, a terrible mistake can be made, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
and this is not a helpful binary answer to the question, | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
but I hope it's a reasonable summary of how most people feel. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:26:35 | 0:26:40 | |
I think the problem with Isil as a whole is the fact that | 0:26:40 | 0:26:43 | |
we don't actually understand it. | 0:26:43 | 0:26:44 | |
We need to, you know, to get more intelligence | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
and I think the only way that will be achieved is through | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
bilateral cooperation, if that's between ourselves | 0:26:50 | 0:26:52 | |
and the US or people like Saudi Arabia. | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
I think the best thing to do is attack this at its roots | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
and then go from there, as opposed to jumping in with pre-emptive | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
strikes which are going to ultimately cost millions of lives. | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
One thing I would like to say, sorry, | 0:27:04 | 0:27:06 | |
is be careful of the idea we need more intelligence. | 0:27:06 | 0:27:08 | |
One thing I do know - beware the politicians. | 0:27:08 | 0:27:12 | |
It's quite convenient for the government that the possibility | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
that IS is behind this airstrike comes in the very week | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
they're asking for greater powers of surveillance. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
They want to read more of our e-mails and phone calls. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
Beware the search for more intelligence because there's | 0:27:23 | 0:27:27 | |
other factors at stake that we may not quite understand. | 0:27:27 | 0:27:30 | |
You, sir, up there, and then we'll go onto another one. | 0:27:30 | 0:27:32 | |
I think Peter Hitchens is talking absolute nonsense in terms of Syria. | 0:27:32 | 0:27:35 | |
By not intervening we likely turned it into a bloody mess | 0:27:35 | 0:27:38 | |
and people have turned to extremism because of that. | 0:27:38 | 0:27:41 | |
Let him finish the point. | 0:27:41 | 0:27:42 | |
If you look at the facts, you will clearly see that Isis grew | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
because of the chaos that enveloped Syria. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:47 | |
That's why we're dealing with it now. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:49 | |
The chaos that enveloped Syria was caused | 0:27:49 | 0:27:51 | |
by external destabilisation... | 0:27:51 | 0:27:53 | |
It was caused by the Assad regime. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:55 | |
..which came out of the Gulf and was supported by the United States, | 0:27:55 | 0:28:00 | |
by Britain and by France in this curious belief that | 0:28:00 | 0:28:04 | |
the Syrian regime - horrible though it undoubtedly is - | 0:28:04 | 0:28:08 | |
was in some way, as we claim, worse than anyone else in the Middle East. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:13 | |
In fact, that's simply not true. Barrel bombs, we talked about. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
Nouri al-Maliki, our friend in Iraq, has used barrel bombs in Fallujah. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
There's hardly a Middle Eastern state... | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
Bahrain, in which we've just opened a naval base, uses torture | 0:28:21 | 0:28:24 | |
and hideous repression against its people | 0:28:24 | 0:28:26 | |
and we have no principled objection to that. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:28 | |
The idea that our objection to Syria is its tyranny is simply | 0:28:28 | 0:28:32 | |
not true, and the other thing about this is | 0:28:32 | 0:28:34 | |
the intransigence of the Syrian opposition, backed by us | 0:28:34 | 0:28:38 | |
and the United States and by the Gulf, | 0:28:38 | 0:28:40 | |
refusing to go to any negotiations in which Assad did not go, | 0:28:40 | 0:28:45 | |
has prevented any kind of attempted diplomatic solution now for years | 0:28:45 | 0:28:50 | |
and all the people who have been driven from their homes | 0:28:50 | 0:28:53 | |
and killed and maimed during that time can turn to those who said, | 0:28:53 | 0:28:58 | |
"We will not negotiate unless Assad goes," | 0:28:58 | 0:29:00 | |
and say, "Why couldn't you make a compromise? | 0:29:00 | 0:29:02 | |
"Were our lives and our homes so unimportant to you by comparison | 0:29:02 | 0:29:06 | |
"to that that you were prepared to demand that forever?" | 0:29:06 | 0:29:09 | |
That's what has been going on. Jenny Jones, briefly. Intransigence. | 0:29:09 | 0:29:14 | |
Jenny Jones, very briefly. | 0:29:14 | 0:29:15 | |
I've worked and visited Syria many, many times | 0:29:15 | 0:29:18 | |
and the fact is that it was an incredibly stable country. | 0:29:18 | 0:29:22 | |
Considering it was a vile dictatorship and so on, | 0:29:22 | 0:29:24 | |
it was actually a very safe, stable country. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
People were repressed, but actually they got on with their lives, | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
there was a lot of employment, food was cheap - | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
it was a good place to live, and believe me, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
our bombing has made it one of the worst places on Earth to live. | 0:29:36 | 0:29:40 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:29:40 | 0:29:43 | |
Sean Wigan, please, your question. Sean Wigan. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
How do we house the high number of immigrants arriving, considering | 0:29:46 | 0:29:50 | |
the shortage of council houses available for existing UK residents? | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
We have a lot of questions about housing here in Tottenham tonight. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
How do we house the high number of immigrants arriving, | 0:29:56 | 0:29:59 | |
considering the shortage of council houses available to UK residents? | 0:29:59 | 0:30:03 | |
Chuka Umunna. | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
Well, I think two things. First of all, it's not just homes for rent. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:10 | |
It's obviously homes that people want to buy. | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
But ultimately, we've got to build more homes | 0:30:13 | 0:30:15 | |
if we're to deal with both the situation | 0:30:15 | 0:30:18 | |
of an inflated housing market, but also high rents. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
One of the problems we've got in the area that I represent, | 0:30:21 | 0:30:24 | |
particularly in an urban centre like London, | 0:30:24 | 0:30:26 | |
I represent one of the constituencies in Lambeth, | 0:30:26 | 0:30:29 | |
is that we simply do not have enough space to build more homes. | 0:30:29 | 0:30:32 | |
And one of the challenges that our council is facing, | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
it wants to increase the number of homes, | 0:30:35 | 0:30:37 | |
but the only place it can actually build them | 0:30:37 | 0:30:39 | |
is on existing council estates. | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
But ultimately, we've got to invest in that. | 0:30:41 | 0:30:43 | |
We've also got to sort out the planning rules. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
But in the rented sector, | 0:30:46 | 0:30:48 | |
as we see the private rented market increase as a share of the tenure | 0:30:48 | 0:30:53 | |
that we have here in London, | 0:30:53 | 0:30:56 | |
we've got a Wild West situation | 0:30:56 | 0:30:58 | |
where, frankly, people are being ripped off by many landlords, | 0:30:58 | 0:31:03 | |
are facing exorbitant rent increases | 0:31:03 | 0:31:06 | |
and there isn't proper regulation in the market. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
Which is why one of the things we were proposing to do | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
in the lead into the general election | 0:31:11 | 0:31:13 | |
was to cap the amount of rent increases that people are facing, | 0:31:13 | 0:31:15 | |
but also stop these agents charging these extortionate fees | 0:31:15 | 0:31:19 | |
every time you're moving home. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:21 | |
So far, we've seen no action from the government | 0:31:21 | 0:31:23 | |
to do anything about this. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:25 | |
When, actually, I see many, you know, many constituents | 0:31:25 | 0:31:28 | |
who, for them, never mind they're not being paid enough in their work, | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
but housing costs are taking up most of their income. | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
But is your question about immigration as well as about housing? | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
No, it's more in regards to housing, more than immigration. | 0:31:37 | 0:31:42 | |
Probably more in line. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:43 | |
Because I work for the criminal justice system | 0:31:43 | 0:31:46 | |
in a probation hostel | 0:31:46 | 0:31:47 | |
and, over a number of years, | 0:31:47 | 0:31:49 | |
it's quite difficult for residents moving on to obtain housing. | 0:31:49 | 0:31:54 | |
And I'm just wondering, | 0:31:54 | 0:31:56 | |
if it's so difficult for the existing UK residents | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
to get council properties, | 0:31:59 | 0:32:01 | |
how are we then housing the immigrants coming over? | 0:32:01 | 0:32:04 | |
OK, you in the front row? | 0:32:04 | 0:32:05 | |
Yeah, I actually used to live in rented accommodation | 0:32:05 | 0:32:08 | |
in London for a few years | 0:32:08 | 0:32:09 | |
and I've just moved to the East Village in Stratford, | 0:32:09 | 0:32:11 | |
which is the old Olympic accommodation. | 0:32:11 | 0:32:13 | |
Now, that's owned by a housing association. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:15 | |
It's got capped rent on inflation and the difference I saw there, | 0:32:15 | 0:32:19 | |
which will be negligible, 1.5% increases, | 0:32:19 | 0:32:21 | |
against a 10% increase in my last place in Clapham | 0:32:21 | 0:32:24 | |
with no, any improvements made at all, that's got to be the solution. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:29 | |
It's the only solution. | 0:32:29 | 0:32:30 | |
OK. And you? I work as a nurse in Islington | 0:32:30 | 0:32:33 | |
and the amount of patients that we have to see | 0:32:33 | 0:32:35 | |
that need housing sorted out through the council | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
and the amount of time that takes up. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:40 | |
So I spend probably 30% of my week in the council, | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
trying to sort out housing. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:46 | |
But then, you know, it affects their mental health problems, as well. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:50 | |
And it's just the whole system needs to be sorted out. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
It does. And one of the problems is, | 0:32:53 | 0:32:55 | |
we should be building around 50,000 new homes, | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
at least 50,000 new homes a year here in London. | 0:32:58 | 0:33:01 | |
And yet, under the current mayor, | 0:33:01 | 0:33:03 | |
we've seen a build of around 20,000 new homes. | 0:33:03 | 0:33:07 | |
And unless you build more, you invest more | 0:33:07 | 0:33:10 | |
and also address some of the planning constraints, | 0:33:10 | 0:33:12 | |
we are not going to be able to get a grip on this. All right, Victoria? | 0:33:12 | 0:33:15 | |
It's a knock-on effect. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:16 | |
Because then what happens is, like, | 0:33:16 | 0:33:18 | |
we know how strained the NHS is and, as a nurse, | 0:33:18 | 0:33:20 | |
I'm having to spend my week in the council | 0:33:20 | 0:33:22 | |
because there's problems with the council. | 0:33:22 | 0:33:24 | |
So less patients get seen by me, there's less treatment being done, | 0:33:24 | 0:33:27 | |
because I'm spending 30% of my week in the council. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:30 | |
So it's a knock-on effect. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:32 | |
OK, you, sir, up there on the right? | 0:33:32 | 0:33:34 | |
I've got to be honest with you, spare us your crocodile tears. | 0:33:35 | 0:33:38 | |
Because it was you, alongside the Tories, | 0:33:38 | 0:33:40 | |
that sold off those council houses, | 0:33:40 | 0:33:43 | |
that drove those people | 0:33:43 | 0:33:45 | |
back into the hands of those unethical landlords | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
that, you know, you seem to be crying for. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
You know, if it wasn't for you carrying out Tory policies | 0:33:50 | 0:33:54 | |
that drove those people into the hands of those landlords, | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
we wouldn't have this crisis right now. | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
I'm sorry, that's garbage, rubbish. That's not true. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:02 | |
So I think, for me, it's really important | 0:34:03 | 0:34:05 | |
that young people growing up in London | 0:34:05 | 0:34:07 | |
do feel like they've got the chance to get on the property ladder | 0:34:07 | 0:34:10 | |
and that means doing three... | 0:34:10 | 0:34:11 | |
SOME OF THE AUDIENCE OBJECTS | 0:34:11 | 0:34:13 | |
It means doing... | 0:34:13 | 0:34:15 | |
It means doing three things. One is getting on with building more homes. | 0:34:15 | 0:34:19 | |
And actually, over the last few years, | 0:34:19 | 0:34:20 | |
we have seen more council homes built. | 0:34:20 | 0:34:22 | |
We've have seen more affordable homes built. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:25 | |
No, no, no, I'm sorry. | 0:34:25 | 0:34:27 | |
The idea of young people... | 0:34:27 | 0:34:29 | |
If I can just finish? | 0:34:29 | 0:34:31 | |
So part of this is building more homes, | 0:34:31 | 0:34:33 | |
including starter homes, which will be at 80% of the market value. | 0:34:33 | 0:34:38 | |
Alongside that, then, it's helping young people | 0:34:38 | 0:34:41 | |
be able to get the deposit that they need | 0:34:41 | 0:34:43 | |
to be able to buy those homes, as well. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:45 | |
Which is where Help to Buy is making a big difference | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
in reducing the amount of deposits that people need. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:52 | |
And the last thing, though, | 0:34:52 | 0:34:53 | |
is around many of the housing estates | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
that are all in our local communities, | 0:34:56 | 0:34:58 | |
which I think, over the coming years, | 0:34:58 | 0:35:00 | |
have a real chance to be regenerated, | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
providing better and new housing stock for existing residents. | 0:35:03 | 0:35:06 | |
But also, giving us the chance to create more homes | 0:35:06 | 0:35:09 | |
and more housing for new people growing up in communities... | 0:35:09 | 0:35:13 | |
But you say that. Why under the coalition... | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
But housebuilding is at its lowest, | 0:35:15 | 0:35:17 | |
according to the government's own figures, since the 1920s. | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
How come? | 0:35:20 | 0:35:21 | |
We've built 600,000... | 0:35:21 | 0:35:22 | |
However many you've built, its lower than it was in 1920. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:26 | |
The lowest since 1920. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:27 | |
We've built 600,000 new homes since 2010. | 0:35:27 | 0:35:31 | |
And, actually, housing starts in the past 12 months... | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
How many a year is that? Since 2010? | 0:35:34 | 0:35:36 | |
Housing starts in the past 12 months... | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
Sorry, housing planning that's been given permission | 0:35:39 | 0:35:41 | |
in the last 12 months is over 250,000 units. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:46 | |
So there are homes being built. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:48 | |
But I think we're dealing with | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
quite a long-term generational lack of homes that have been built, | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
especially in London. | 0:35:53 | 0:35:55 | |
And it's taking time to get that turned around. | 0:35:55 | 0:35:57 | |
But is being turned around, | 0:35:57 | 0:35:58 | |
which is why more affordable homes are being built, | 0:35:58 | 0:36:00 | |
more council homes are being built... OK. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:03 | |
And, actually, we are seeing people | 0:36:03 | 0:36:04 | |
being able to get into the housing market. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:06 | |
The person up there in the second row from the back. You in blue? | 0:36:06 | 0:36:10 | |
Hi. I used to live in Lambeth, | 0:36:10 | 0:36:11 | |
actually opposite your surgery, Chuka. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:13 | |
I'm having to move out of London. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:15 | |
I earn a decent wage, I'm a Londoner, | 0:36:15 | 0:36:17 | |
but I can't afford the rent. | 0:36:17 | 0:36:18 | |
And you say there's no room to build more houses. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:21 | |
But if you get the bus around Lambeth/Wandsworth, | 0:36:21 | 0:36:23 | |
there's plenty of room to build luxury apartments, luxury flats. | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
I can't afford them. | 0:36:26 | 0:36:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:36:28 | 0:36:29 | |
You, sir? | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
Yes? | 0:36:34 | 0:36:36 | |
Yeah, you're saying, you're quoting figures, 50,000 targets, | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
20,000 houses being built. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:41 | |
But like what was just said, | 0:36:41 | 0:36:42 | |
what percentage of those houses are affordable? | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
All these figures... | 0:36:45 | 0:36:46 | |
20,000, are they all affordable housing | 0:36:46 | 0:36:49 | |
or a percentage of that is luxury housing? | 0:36:49 | 0:36:51 | |
And the man next to you? | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
Chuka can talk about the number of houses being built, | 0:36:53 | 0:36:56 | |
but when Labour were in power, they only built 13,000 houses. | 0:36:56 | 0:37:00 | |
There were more houses built in the last year | 0:37:00 | 0:37:02 | |
when Margaret Thatcher was in power, council houses. | 0:37:02 | 0:37:05 | |
That's right. | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
I'm sorry, that is not a figure I recognise. Before the crash... | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
You might not recognise it, but it's true, though. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:12 | |
Before the crash, | 0:37:12 | 0:37:14 | |
we were building around 240,000 new homes a year across the UK. | 0:37:14 | 0:37:18 | |
Not council houses. | 0:37:18 | 0:37:19 | |
Now, in terms of the council houses, to pick up on my former constituent. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:24 | |
I'm sorry to be losing you. Yeah. | 0:37:24 | 0:37:27 | |
We're sorry to have lost you. | 0:37:29 | 0:37:33 | |
But, of course, the problem is, | 0:37:33 | 0:37:34 | |
going to your point about the space issue, | 0:37:34 | 0:37:36 | |
it's space that Lambeth actually owns. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:38 | |
They simply don't have the money, | 0:37:38 | 0:37:41 | |
given the cuts they've sustained, 50% of their budget going, | 0:37:41 | 0:37:43 | |
to buy up all the private land that you're talking about. | 0:37:43 | 0:37:46 | |
So that leaves them with their land to build on | 0:37:46 | 0:37:48 | |
and they don't have enough of it. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:49 | |
Do you think we should cut rents, though, like they do in Berlin? | 0:37:49 | 0:37:52 | |
I'm very sympathetic to exercising that control on rent, | 0:37:52 | 0:37:56 | |
which is why, you know, having a cap on the increase | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
that people are subject to by their landlords every year | 0:37:59 | 0:38:02 | |
was something that I was elected on. | 0:38:02 | 0:38:03 | |
That was a manifesto that I was elected on. | 0:38:03 | 0:38:05 | |
Are you in favour of controlled rents? I'm very sympathetic to it. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
Sympathetic doesn't mean... Yes, yes! You are in favour? Yes, I am. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:11 | |
You are in favour? You'd vote for it? I would vote for capping rents. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:14 | |
OK, Corbyn would be with you on that one. | 0:38:14 | 0:38:16 | |
I think so. Yeah. | 0:38:16 | 0:38:18 | |
Victoria? | 0:38:18 | 0:38:19 | |
First of all, it needs to be said that the idea | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
that any young person, really, | 0:38:22 | 0:38:24 | |
unless they're the child of a Russian oligarch, | 0:38:24 | 0:38:26 | |
could live in London any more is preposterous. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:38:28 | 0:38:30 | |
It is an absolute pipedream. | 0:38:32 | 0:38:35 | |
You know, here in Tottenham, which is not central London, | 0:38:35 | 0:38:38 | |
in fact it's one of poorest places in Europe, | 0:38:38 | 0:38:40 | |
in Tottenham a one-bedroom flat can cost you ?400,000. | 0:38:40 | 0:38:43 | |
It's a stupid amount of money. | 0:38:43 | 0:38:45 | |
80% of it is a stupid amount of money. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
No-one can afford to live here | 0:38:47 | 0:38:48 | |
and of course they could build more houses. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:51 | |
I don't know how many council houses were built in London | 0:38:51 | 0:38:53 | |
in the last year, probably about 40. | 0:38:53 | 0:38:55 | |
I mean, a ridiculous amount. | 0:38:55 | 0:38:56 | |
There needs to be a proper revolution. | 0:38:56 | 0:38:59 | |
And I know you would say it's easy for me to say | 0:38:59 | 0:39:01 | |
because I'm not a politician, but I'm not, and it is, so I will. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:04 | |
I think what has to happen is all of the young people | 0:39:04 | 0:39:06 | |
and all of the workforce just have to leave London. | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
They've just got to make themselves work somewhere else. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
The Government has to find something to offer people | 0:39:11 | 0:39:13 | |
outside London to regenerate other parts of the country. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:16 | |
And they'll leave | 0:39:16 | 0:39:17 | |
and all these super-wealthy people with their iceberg houses | 0:39:17 | 0:39:19 | |
will be left with no nurses and no policeman and no firemen | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
and no-one to clean their houses | 0:39:22 | 0:39:24 | |
and no-one to deliver the mail to the houses. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:25 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:39:25 | 0:39:27 | |
The last thing I want to say, which is also very important, | 0:39:27 | 0:39:30 | |
is be very careful, though, about talking about immigration. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
It's not about immigration. This isn't a population problem. | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
It's only very recently that London has returned | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
to the population level of 1945. | 0:39:39 | 0:39:41 | |
It's not the number of people, it's the cost of the houses | 0:39:41 | 0:39:44 | |
and the type that are being built. | 0:39:44 | 0:39:45 | |
All right. You, sir, at the front? | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
Yes? I actually work in the London property market | 0:39:47 | 0:39:50 | |
and I've got two quick points to make. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:52 | |
I mean, the Help to Buy scheme is a complete failure. | 0:39:52 | 0:39:55 | |
As, in order to qualify to buy one of these properties, | 0:39:55 | 0:39:58 | |
you need to be on ?70,000, ?80,000, ?90,000 at least. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
So that's one point. The second point, I've seen rents go up | 0:40:01 | 0:40:04 | |
by at least 15 to 20% in the last two years, and wages are not coming | 0:40:04 | 0:40:08 | |
up to that level. | 0:40:08 | 0:40:10 | |
And that simply is a supply-and-demand issue. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:12 | |
You talk about building these houses, but where are they? | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
Where are they being built? Jenny Jones. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
SCATTERED APPLAUSE | 0:40:18 | 0:40:19 | |
I've got so much to say on this that I'm going to trip over myself. | 0:40:19 | 0:40:23 | |
But, basically, what's happening here in London, the driving out | 0:40:23 | 0:40:27 | |
of people, it's not just | 0:40:27 | 0:40:28 | |
the cleaners and the baristas | 0:40:28 | 0:40:30 | |
and people like that who are on | 0:40:30 | 0:40:31 | |
low pay who are getting driven out, | 0:40:31 | 0:40:33 | |
it's academics, it's junior doctors, | 0:40:33 | 0:40:35 | |
it's all the sort of people that we need to keep our city going. | 0:40:35 | 0:40:39 | |
And there are all sorts of things we could do but we in general | 0:40:39 | 0:40:42 | |
are choosing not to do. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:44 | |
I've been watching Boris Johnson over the past seven and a half years | 0:40:44 | 0:40:48 | |
fairly up close and personal, | 0:40:48 | 0:40:50 | |
and he, when he came in, redefined affordable housing. | 0:40:50 | 0:40:53 | |
It's all very well talking about building affordable housing. | 0:40:53 | 0:40:56 | |
We all agree on that. But actually, affordable has to be | 0:40:56 | 0:40:59 | |
affordable for everybody. | 0:40:59 | 0:41:00 | |
It's not affordable if you earn ?80,000 and you can't buy it | 0:41:00 | 0:41:04 | |
if you earn any less. That's not affordable. | 0:41:04 | 0:41:07 | |
He redefined "affordable". | 0:41:07 | 0:41:08 | |
We should think about rent caps, of course we should. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
We've tried things like landlord registers, | 0:41:11 | 0:41:14 | |
because of course a lot of people, if you're in rented accommodation | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
and you complain about your boiler, you get kicked out | 0:41:17 | 0:41:20 | |
because it's such a bad market for people who are trying to rent. | 0:41:20 | 0:41:24 | |
We should also be bringing empty properties back into use. | 0:41:24 | 0:41:28 | |
There's something called the Land Value Tax, | 0:41:28 | 0:41:30 | |
which is too complicated to go into, but that basically penalises you | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
for leaving a building empty for any length of time. | 0:41:33 | 0:41:36 | |
There's also, for example, social housing. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:40 | |
We should be building social housing. | 0:41:40 | 0:41:42 | |
I grew up in a council house in Brighton just after the war. | 0:41:42 | 0:41:48 | |
It was brilliant. My parents were on a really low income, | 0:41:48 | 0:41:51 | |
a hospital chef and a dinner lady. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:53 | |
Nowadays, they would never have access to that sort of... | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
Well, it's harder and harder for people like that, | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
families like that, to have access to social housing. | 0:41:59 | 0:42:01 | |
So many councils are building... Well, they're starting to build | 0:42:01 | 0:42:04 | |
social housing, but what they're doing, of course, | 0:42:04 | 0:42:07 | |
is they're selling off some of the flats | 0:42:07 | 0:42:09 | |
to offshore investors and people who see it as an investment. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:14 | |
Housing is for people who live in the city. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:18 | |
It is not something to make huge amounts of money out of. | 0:42:18 | 0:42:20 | |
All right. Thank you. OK. Thank you. APPLAUSE | 0:42:20 | 0:42:22 | |
Peter Hitchens. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:25 | |
Yeah, first of all, it's quite plain that our housing policy | 0:42:26 | 0:42:28 | |
in this country has been a catastrophe for many years, | 0:42:28 | 0:42:31 | |
and one of the things which has made it so | 0:42:31 | 0:42:33 | |
was the sale of council houses, which everybody says was wonderful, | 0:42:33 | 0:42:36 | |
which I think we must recognise was a disaster. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:39 | |
It destroyed a huge amount | 0:42:39 | 0:42:40 | |
of rented housing stock, | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
incredibly valuable to people | 0:42:42 | 0:42:43 | |
who had to work | 0:42:43 | 0:42:44 | |
and needed to move to work, | 0:42:44 | 0:42:46 | |
and replaced it with the absolute | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
catastrophe of housing benefit, | 0:42:48 | 0:42:50 | |
which currently costs more than the Royal Air Force to maintain | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
and is an immensely expensive way of trying to house people. | 0:42:53 | 0:42:57 | |
We've also repeatedly had governments which have sought | 0:42:57 | 0:43:00 | |
to cover up their failure to create a productive economy | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
by pumping up housing bubbles to try and sustain the economic figures | 0:43:03 | 0:43:08 | |
and make themselves look good, during which time | 0:43:08 | 0:43:10 | |
we have accumulated a national debt of ?1.5 trillion, | 0:43:10 | 0:43:13 | |
?1.5 trillion, completely unpayable. | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
And this constant use of housing bubbles | 0:43:17 | 0:43:20 | |
and of pumping money into housing | 0:43:20 | 0:43:22 | |
to try and save themselves from serious economic decisions | 0:43:22 | 0:43:26 | |
has been one of the causes... | 0:43:26 | 0:43:28 | |
Are you saying there's a motive not to build houses? | 0:43:28 | 0:43:30 | |
Well, the housing policy is not directed by any desire | 0:43:30 | 0:43:33 | |
to build houses. | 0:43:33 | 0:43:34 | |
The housing policy is directed to cover up for the fact | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
that they've failed to manage the economy of the country | 0:43:37 | 0:43:39 | |
over several decades. | 0:43:39 | 0:43:40 | |
And Victoria, although a lot of what she said | 0:43:40 | 0:43:43 | |
about housing in London was extremely sensible, | 0:43:43 | 0:43:45 | |
for Justine Greening to imagine that young people | 0:43:45 | 0:43:47 | |
can buy property in London... | 0:43:47 | 0:43:49 | |
This is the best government that hedge funds could buy, | 0:43:49 | 0:43:52 | |
and they obviously spend time with nobody else but hedge-fund managers | 0:43:52 | 0:43:55 | |
if they think that any young people can afford houses. | 0:43:55 | 0:43:58 | |
But the problem that we also face is that how can a country | 0:43:58 | 0:44:02 | |
which has such a major problem in housing, how can it conceivably | 0:44:02 | 0:44:06 | |
have a policy of undiscriminating, | 0:44:06 | 0:44:08 | |
non-selective mass immigration at the same time? | 0:44:08 | 0:44:11 | |
Is this not guaranteed to cause greater problems | 0:44:11 | 0:44:13 | |
than you already have? | 0:44:13 | 0:44:15 | |
To say the number of people makes no difference is absurd. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:17 | |
No, I didn't say the number of people makes no difference. | 0:44:17 | 0:44:20 | |
I said it would be wrong to imagine that the population of London | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
is too big because of immigrants | 0:44:23 | 0:44:24 | |
when it's only the same as it was in the '40s. | 0:44:24 | 0:44:26 | |
I don't live in London, and I recognise the existence | 0:44:26 | 0:44:29 | |
of other parts of the country, but there is absolutely no doubt - | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
and the recent projections show that our population is rising | 0:44:32 | 0:44:36 | |
towards 70 million at an astonishing rate - | 0:44:36 | 0:44:38 | |
there is no doubt that there are a lot more people in this country | 0:44:38 | 0:44:41 | |
than there used to be, and a great deal of them are the result | 0:44:41 | 0:44:45 | |
of uncontrolled mass immigration, which we will not control | 0:44:45 | 0:44:48 | |
and which, until we leave the European Union, we can't control. | 0:44:48 | 0:44:50 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:44:50 | 0:44:53 | |
If you think one should control the population | 0:44:53 | 0:44:55 | |
where it's too big, and the main reason, if the population | 0:44:55 | 0:44:57 | |
is too big, is because it's ageing, people are living longer, | 0:44:57 | 0:45:00 | |
how do we control that? Should we get rid of the old folk as well? | 0:45:00 | 0:45:03 | |
Well, if you have, as I say, a set of existing circumstances, | 0:45:03 | 0:45:07 | |
of which that may be one, which have caused a major housing crisis | 0:45:07 | 0:45:12 | |
and problems for almost anybody seeking to buy a house, | 0:45:12 | 0:45:15 | |
it doesn't seem to me to be sensible to bring in a very large | 0:45:15 | 0:45:18 | |
number of people who haven't got houses to live in at the same time. | 0:45:18 | 0:45:21 | |
Isn't that elementary? We don't have a housing crisis... Oh, no(!) | 0:45:21 | 0:45:26 | |
..because of immigrants but because we haven't built enough homes. | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
All right. We've got ten minutes, and I want a couple more questions, | 0:45:29 | 0:45:33 | |
or at least one more, if I can, | 0:45:33 | 0:45:35 | |
before we come to the end of the programme. | 0:45:35 | 0:45:37 | |
James Barton's question, please, next. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:39 | |
Are cuts to the police force endangering the public? | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
Cuts to the police force, are they endangering the public? | 0:45:42 | 0:45:46 | |
The Met here in London believes it faces cuts of up to a billion | 0:45:46 | 0:45:50 | |
over the next five years. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:52 | |
Jenny Jones, I think you're in a position to answer this, | 0:45:52 | 0:45:55 | |
because you're on the London Assembly police committee but you're also | 0:45:55 | 0:45:58 | |
defined - I think I've got this right - as a domestic extremist by the Met. | 0:45:58 | 0:46:02 | |
Is that right? So you're running the police, | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
who define you as a danger, presumably. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:09 | |
Yes, I was tagged as a domestic extremist by the Met Police. | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
I was on their database for ten years. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:15 | |
They've told me I've been taken off, but I've actually | 0:46:15 | 0:46:17 | |
reapplied for my file to find out if they actually have taken me off. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:22 | |
I've been a critic of the police for a long, long time, | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
but even I think that these cuts are starting to endanger the public. | 0:46:25 | 0:46:30 | |
The fact is, they were so fast, so savage - by a Tory government! | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
Who'd have thought a Tory government would slash at police | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
funding like that? | 0:46:37 | 0:46:38 | |
Nobody doubts there was fat to trim from all the police budgets, | 0:46:38 | 0:46:42 | |
but it's gone too far. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:44 | |
They were done so quickly, the cuts, that the | 0:46:44 | 0:46:46 | |
police themselves had no time to be strategic about the cuts. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:49 | |
They had to sort of slash and burn. | 0:46:49 | 0:46:52 | |
And that's no way to run any sort of police force. | 0:46:52 | 0:46:54 | |
And does it endanger the public? I think it does. I think it does. | 0:46:54 | 0:46:58 | |
The real problem for the Met Police in particular | 0:46:58 | 0:47:01 | |
is of course that they have a lot of other functions, | 0:47:01 | 0:47:03 | |
international and domestic, that other police forces don't have, | 0:47:03 | 0:47:08 | |
and the Government repeatedly doesn't pay them for it. | 0:47:08 | 0:47:11 | |
Assange, for example, | 0:47:11 | 0:47:12 | |
keeping him trapped in the embassy for all those years, ?12 million. | 0:47:12 | 0:47:16 | |
The Met hasn't seen a penny of it. At least, I hope that's still true. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:19 | |
But perhaps they will tomorrow, now I've mentioned it. | 0:47:19 | 0:47:22 | |
All right. You, sir, in the middle there. | 0:47:22 | 0:47:24 | |
It just goes sort of hand in hand with Tories just making stuff up. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
I mean, the manifestos that I heard of in this election just gone | 0:47:27 | 0:47:31 | |
and the election in 2010 with the coalition said that there'd be more | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
patrolling generally in areas, and there definitely isn't. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
My area generally, I'm lucky | 0:47:39 | 0:47:40 | |
if I call the police for anything and they actually turn up three | 0:47:40 | 0:47:44 | |
hours later, only to look around, walk around a bit | 0:47:44 | 0:47:46 | |
and then just move off again. So cuts are just a joke, aren't they? | 0:47:46 | 0:47:50 | |
And you, sir, in the white shirt there. | 0:47:50 | 0:47:53 | |
Thank you. Justine, I would just like to know, the Tories have always | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
had a very good relationship with the police, | 0:47:56 | 0:47:58 | |
so why are you making these cuts now? | 0:47:58 | 0:48:00 | |
If you look at crime across the board, actually, in London, | 0:48:00 | 0:48:04 | |
it's fallen dramatically over the last few years. | 0:48:04 | 0:48:07 | |
MURMURING IN AUDIENCE | 0:48:07 | 0:48:08 | |
At the same time, people who have been victims of crime are saying | 0:48:08 | 0:48:12 | |
they're more satisfied, actually, with how they're being dealt with | 0:48:12 | 0:48:15 | |
with the police. | 0:48:15 | 0:48:16 | |
At the same time as that, we also need to make sure that we | 0:48:16 | 0:48:20 | |
deliver on making sure our public finances are affordable | 0:48:20 | 0:48:23 | |
for the public, and that includes making sure that... | 0:48:23 | 0:48:26 | |
the policing we have is on a sustainable | 0:48:26 | 0:48:29 | |
footing in terms of how much money's going into it. | 0:48:29 | 0:48:33 | |
So we're trying to make these different objectives match up. | 0:48:33 | 0:48:37 | |
I think we are getting there. But we've been elected to try | 0:48:37 | 0:48:41 | |
and get the rest of that deficit that we inherited dealt with. | 0:48:41 | 0:48:46 | |
It doesn't do us any good to hand over a whole load | 0:48:46 | 0:48:49 | |
of debts to the next generation. We're getting on with doing that. | 0:48:49 | 0:48:52 | |
We've got the spending review in November, which will set out how | 0:48:52 | 0:48:56 | |
we're going to make the next set of savings in terms of public finances. | 0:48:56 | 0:49:01 | |
But I meet up with my borough commander | 0:49:01 | 0:49:04 | |
regularly in Wandsworth, and actually, they do | 0:49:04 | 0:49:07 | |
work very hard to look at how they can run themselves more | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
effectively, more efficiently, and I think it's wrong to say that the | 0:49:10 | 0:49:14 | |
changes in funding are just suddenly being put onto the Met Police. | 0:49:14 | 0:49:18 | |
They are challenging, they are difficult, | 0:49:18 | 0:49:20 | |
but actually, people are working to make sure | 0:49:20 | 0:49:22 | |
how we can make sure policing in London is able to continue | 0:49:22 | 0:49:26 | |
to be as successful in the future as it's been in the past, | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
but at the same time, it's done in a way | 0:49:29 | 0:49:31 | |
that has a sustainable level of funding | 0:49:31 | 0:49:33 | |
that's going to be affordable. | 0:49:33 | 0:49:35 | |
Hang on - you say that it's...that crime is falling, | 0:49:35 | 0:49:40 | |
but the figures for London on knife crime show a big rise. | 0:49:40 | 0:49:43 | |
Knife crime is up... 18% increase. | 0:49:43 | 0:49:47 | |
If you look at crime, violent crime, including on transport, | 0:49:47 | 0:49:50 | |
for example, you've seen year-on-year reductions. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:54 | |
So the reality is... Justine... ..crime overall has fallen. | 0:49:54 | 0:49:58 | |
We want to see those trends continue. | 0:49:58 | 0:50:00 | |
But at the same time, we've got to make sure that our police | 0:50:00 | 0:50:03 | |
is funded in a sustainable way. | 0:50:03 | 0:50:05 | |
Knife crime is up 14%, serious youth violence is up 8%, | 0:50:05 | 0:50:09 | |
youth gang offences are up 23%. | 0:50:09 | 0:50:12 | |
Is this because of cuts to the police? | 0:50:12 | 0:50:14 | |
Well, I asked this question. | 0:50:14 | 0:50:16 | |
I sit on the Home Affairs Select Committee. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:18 | |
We took evidence from a number of chief constables | 0:50:18 | 0:50:21 | |
and I asked them the specific question, | 0:50:21 | 0:50:23 | |
the question just asked - will the public... | 0:50:23 | 0:50:25 | |
"Will you be able to keep the public safe in the way that you have | 0:50:25 | 0:50:29 | |
"up to now, after these cuts?" | 0:50:29 | 0:50:30 | |
And they doubted their ability to do that, | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
particularly the chief constable for Lancashire. | 0:50:32 | 0:50:35 | |
There are two specific issues that I have. | 0:50:35 | 0:50:37 | |
We in London are facing losing more than 5,000 officers. | 0:50:37 | 0:50:41 | |
At the moment, there are proposals | 0:50:41 | 0:50:42 | |
to lose all of our Police Community Support Officers. | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
We have a particular problem in my borough, next to Justine's, | 0:50:45 | 0:50:48 | |
of serious youth violence. | 0:50:48 | 0:50:50 | |
Neighbourhood policing is absolutely fundamental | 0:50:50 | 0:50:53 | |
to preventing this gang culture capturing our young people. | 0:50:53 | 0:50:56 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:50:56 | 0:50:57 | |
Are you talking about the money that's provided | 0:50:57 | 0:51:00 | |
or about the way the police use the money? Two different... Both. | 0:51:00 | 0:51:03 | |
I asked the Met Commissioner, the Deputy Met Commissioner, | 0:51:03 | 0:51:05 | |
who we had in front of us, I said, | 0:51:05 | 0:51:07 | |
"How important is neighbourhood policing | 0:51:07 | 0:51:09 | |
"and will you be able to carry on the prevention work around gangs | 0:51:09 | 0:51:12 | |
"with the level of cuts sustained? Will that not be more difficult?" | 0:51:12 | 0:51:15 | |
He said that'll be very challenging. The other big issue we're looking at | 0:51:15 | 0:51:18 | |
in my borough is we've had quite a lot of... | 0:51:18 | 0:51:21 | |
We've got historic child abuse investigations. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:23 | |
Of course, it's not historic for the people who are the victims | 0:51:23 | 0:51:25 | |
and survivors of that. | 0:51:25 | 0:51:27 | |
But the money that is going into that | 0:51:27 | 0:51:29 | |
is being taken out of the general pot. | 0:51:29 | 0:51:31 | |
There isn't even a specific sum of money for this very serious issue | 0:51:31 | 0:51:36 | |
that has particularly come to the fore | 0:51:36 | 0:51:37 | |
over the last two to three years. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:39 | |
Actually, if you look at the Met, of the 30,000 referrers | 0:51:39 | 0:51:41 | |
that are expected from Justice Goddard's inquiry | 0:51:41 | 0:51:45 | |
into historic child abuse, | 0:51:45 | 0:51:47 | |
half of those are going to be in London. | 0:51:47 | 0:51:49 | |
They are not provided with any extra resources for the investigation. | 0:51:49 | 0:51:53 | |
I'll come to you, sir, in the front - briefly, you wouldn't make any cuts | 0:51:53 | 0:51:56 | |
in the pricing of...? We believe... Labour would spend... | 0:51:56 | 0:51:58 | |
You could make up to 10% cuts. That's it. You would make cuts. | 0:51:58 | 0:52:01 | |
Fine. I just want to make the point. They're cutting... | 0:52:01 | 0:52:03 | |
The original Met budget is going to be a third less | 0:52:03 | 0:52:06 | |
than what it was after those cuts. | 0:52:06 | 0:52:08 | |
We do not believe that the police can sustain that. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:11 | |
A contributing factor to our problems with the police | 0:52:11 | 0:52:15 | |
is mismanagement of what we can afford. | 0:52:15 | 0:52:18 | |
It is too top-heavy. | 0:52:18 | 0:52:20 | |
We've got chief constables, deputy chief constables | 0:52:20 | 0:52:25 | |
assistant chief constables, deputy assistant chief constables... | 0:52:25 | 0:52:30 | |
I'm not making it up, it's a fact. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:32 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:52:32 | 0:52:34 | |
No, no... It's a fact, it's a fact. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:40 | |
After that, you've got chief superintendents, | 0:52:40 | 0:52:42 | |
they've got superintendents, | 0:52:42 | 0:52:44 | |
they've got chief inspectors, inspectors, | 0:52:44 | 0:52:46 | |
before you get to sergeants, and then...and then... | 0:52:46 | 0:52:50 | |
Look at the salary of our own commissioner in London - | 0:52:50 | 0:52:54 | |
?400,000 a year. | 0:52:54 | 0:52:56 | |
And I'm not talking about the extras. | 0:52:56 | 0:52:59 | |
Compare that salary with that of the constable - ?28,000. | 0:52:59 | 0:53:03 | |
All right, Peter Hitchens. Thank you very much. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:05 | |
APPLAUSE I think we get the point! | 0:53:05 | 0:53:07 | |
It's a good point, but some years ago, | 0:53:07 | 0:53:10 | |
I got tired of listening to the police complaining about | 0:53:10 | 0:53:13 | |
how they couldn't do what they were supposed to do | 0:53:13 | 0:53:15 | |
because they didn't have enough numbers. | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
The truth is that, for some years, | 0:53:18 | 0:53:19 | |
there have been far more police officers in the country - | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
both per head of the population and in total - | 0:53:22 | 0:53:26 | |
than there were in the '60s, | 0:53:26 | 0:53:28 | |
when we had much more effective policing than we do now. | 0:53:28 | 0:53:31 | |
The reason for the problem is that the police... The '60s? | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
The Met was the most corrupt... They're very nice people. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:36 | |
They've very nice people but they do the wrong thing all the time. | 0:53:36 | 0:53:41 | |
If you are burgled or if you are robbed or if you are mugged, | 0:53:41 | 0:53:44 | |
the police cannot unburgle you or unmug you or...or unrob you. | 0:53:44 | 0:53:49 | |
Nothing... Are the cuts endangering the public, Peter, is the question? | 0:53:49 | 0:53:53 | |
We only have a short time. I know what the question is, | 0:53:53 | 0:53:56 | |
but if you just have cliched politics... | 0:53:56 | 0:53:58 | |
Let politicians run on, | 0:53:58 | 0:53:59 | |
but let anybody who has anything original to say shut up. No, Peter. | 0:53:59 | 0:54:04 | |
I will not shut up, because it's so important. | 0:54:04 | 0:54:06 | |
The police are supposed - and they were invented in this | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
country by Robert Peel - to do one thing. | 0:54:09 | 0:54:12 | |
To patrol, on foot, the streets to prevent crime and disorder. | 0:54:12 | 0:54:16 | |
That is something they no longer do. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:19 | |
If they will start doing that again, we should pay them | 0:54:19 | 0:54:21 | |
a king's ransom, all the money we've got. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:23 | |
But at the moment, they won't do it, they've vanished from the streets. | 0:54:23 | 0:54:26 | |
They only turn up after things have happened and frankly, | 0:54:26 | 0:54:29 | |
that creates a demand that could never conceivably... | 0:54:29 | 0:54:31 | |
I have the solution to this problem, it's very simple. | 0:54:31 | 0:54:34 | |
Like most people in London, or any big city, I don't see a policeman | 0:54:34 | 0:54:38 | |
from one month to the next, | 0:54:38 | 0:54:39 | |
but I can't move for traffic wardens. | 0:54:39 | 0:54:41 | |
They can patrol the streets, don't worry about that. | 0:54:41 | 0:54:45 | |
That's because imposing parking crimes | 0:54:45 | 0:54:48 | |
is a massively profitable business. | 0:54:48 | 0:54:50 | |
The traffic wardens are being gradually replaced by cameras, | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
which means greater income, lower outlay. | 0:54:53 | 0:54:55 | |
Spend the same money on policemen. All right. I'm going to do... | 0:54:55 | 0:54:58 | |
I'm going to take one last question round the table in the light | 0:54:58 | 0:55:02 | |
of something that happened this week from Tim Paramore, please. | 0:55:02 | 0:55:06 | |
Is the government turning our schools into joyless exam factories? | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
Briefly - "joyless exam factories". | 0:55:09 | 0:55:11 | |
This is the news that seven-year-olds are now going to be tested | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
to see how they're doing. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:17 | |
Justine Greening, but briefly, please. | 0:55:17 | 0:55:19 | |
No... Pace, Peter. | 0:55:19 | 0:55:21 | |
No, we're not, but what we do want to do is make sure | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
we have a good sense of where children have got to | 0:55:24 | 0:55:27 | |
as they pass through schools, | 0:55:27 | 0:55:29 | |
so that they're not all dealt with the same | 0:55:29 | 0:55:31 | |
and actually, across the board, | 0:55:31 | 0:55:32 | |
we can start to get a better sense of how well children, | 0:55:32 | 0:55:36 | |
individual children, are progressing through school | 0:55:36 | 0:55:39 | |
and how well schools are doing at bringing them on | 0:55:39 | 0:55:41 | |
and helping them to be in a position to reach their own potential. | 0:55:41 | 0:55:44 | |
Joyless exam factories - Jenny Jones, do you agree? | 0:55:44 | 0:55:47 | |
Absolutely, yes - childhood should be a time | 0:55:47 | 0:55:50 | |
when you learn to enjoy learning. | 0:55:50 | 0:55:52 | |
It should be full of joy and excitement and pleasure | 0:55:52 | 0:55:55 | |
and actually finding out about the world around you. | 0:55:55 | 0:55:58 | |
So the idea of constantly testing and assessing | 0:55:58 | 0:56:00 | |
and putting stress on seven-year-olds... | 0:56:00 | 0:56:02 | |
Why would we do that to our children? | 0:56:02 | 0:56:05 | |
All right - Peter Hitchens. | 0:56:05 | 0:56:06 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:56:06 | 0:56:08 | |
It is true that this is what they are and it's because, | 0:56:10 | 0:56:12 | |
rather that doing what needs to be done to the schools - | 0:56:12 | 0:56:15 | |
that is to say, bringing back | 0:56:15 | 0:56:16 | |
proper, rigorous education in the basics | 0:56:16 | 0:56:19 | |
and selection in secondary schools on academic merit - | 0:56:19 | 0:56:23 | |
they insist on constantly reaching for gimmicks | 0:56:23 | 0:56:26 | |
and on driving the schools and punishing the schools | 0:56:26 | 0:56:29 | |
with incessant five-year-plans and exhortation. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:31 | |
That's the only policy they have | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
because they will not, for ideological reasons, | 0:56:33 | 0:56:35 | |
do the only thing which would make the schools better. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:37 | |
Victoria Coren - thank you, Peter. Um... Yes, absolutely, | 0:56:37 | 0:56:40 | |
joyless exam - not just that. | 0:56:40 | 0:56:42 | |
Joyless exam factories all day and then hours of homework at night. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:45 | |
They can't even come home and play. It's awful. It's pertinent to me, | 0:56:45 | 0:56:49 | |
because I've decided as a result of this | 0:56:49 | 0:56:51 | |
that our daughter will not go to school at all, | 0:56:51 | 0:56:53 | |
it's too miserable - she'll be home-schooled. | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
My husband, unfortunately, thinks that means she'll turn out weird. | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
So...the debate continues. Learn to play poker at an early age. | 0:56:58 | 0:57:01 | |
I think that's the only way. | 0:57:01 | 0:57:02 | |
The woman in the very front, here, then I'll come to you, Chuka. | 0:57:02 | 0:57:06 | |
Just briefly. I just wanted to ask | 0:57:06 | 0:57:07 | |
where you saw the education system in five years' time. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:10 | |
I think that might take quite a long time to answer. | 0:57:10 | 0:57:13 | |
If you'll excuse me, we won't do that, but Chuka, very briefly. | 0:57:13 | 0:57:16 | |
Joyless exam factories? Or are you in favour of testing at seven? | 0:57:16 | 0:57:19 | |
No, I think there is a problem with turning into joyless exam factories. | 0:57:19 | 0:57:23 | |
The problems with our schools are not because our kids | 0:57:23 | 0:57:25 | |
are not doing enough exams and tests. | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
We need more teachers. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
We've got loads of kids in overcrowded classrooms, | 0:57:29 | 0:57:31 | |
at the moment, and that should actually be the focus, | 0:57:31 | 0:57:33 | |
I think, as opposed to continually... | 0:57:33 | 0:57:37 | |
There a massive teaching recruitment crisis, exactly, as that lady says. | 0:57:37 | 0:57:41 | |
Resources... We've got record numbers, | 0:57:41 | 0:57:43 | |
record numbers of teachers are leaving the profession | 0:57:43 | 0:57:45 | |
and that's what the Government should be focused on, | 0:57:45 | 0:57:47 | |
not incessantly testing our young people. | 0:57:47 | 0:57:50 | |
I wish this debate could go on, but it can't, | 0:57:50 | 0:57:52 | |
because we only get our hour, though on radio, | 0:57:52 | 0:57:54 | |
it does go on a bit longer, I'll tell you in a moment. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:56 | |
But our time's up on Question Time. | 0:57:56 | 0:57:58 | |
We're going to be in Stoke-on-Trent next week. | 0:57:58 | 0:58:01 | |
We've got Sajid Javid for the Tories, | 0:58:01 | 0:58:03 | |
Lucy Powell for Labour, | 0:58:03 | 0:58:05 | |
the writer and activist Paris Lees | 0:58:05 | 0:58:07 | |
among those on the panel. | 0:58:07 | 0:58:08 | |
The week after that, we'll be in Belfast. | 0:58:08 | 0:58:10 | |
So if you want to come to Stoke or Belfast, go to the website, | 0:58:10 | 0:58:13 | |
call the number on the screen... | 0:58:13 | 0:58:15 | |
If you're listening on 5 Live, | 0:58:18 | 0:58:19 | |
as you know, this debate continues | 0:58:19 | 0:58:21 | |
on Question Time Extra Time, | 0:58:21 | 0:58:22 | |
but on here, my thanks | 0:58:22 | 0:58:23 | |
to all our panellists and to you, our audience. | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
From Tottenham in London, until next Thursday, goodnight. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:30 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:30 | 0:58:32 | |
The knives are sharpened and the heat is on. It can only mean one thing. | 0:59:03 | 0:59:06 | |
I've never, ever seen that! | 0:59:06 | 0:59:08 | |
Britain's best chefs are back in town. | 0:59:08 | 0:59:11 |