05/11/2015 Question Time


05/11/2015

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This is London and welcome to Question Time.

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You may be watching, you may be listening on the radio,

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welcome and welcome to our audience here and, of course, to our panel.

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Tonight, our panel is

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the Conservative International Development Secretary

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Justine Greening,

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Labour's Chuka Umunna, who returned to the back benches

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rather than serve in Corbyn's shadow cabinet,

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the Green Party's first appointment to the House of Lords, Jenny Jones,

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the Mail on Sunday columnist Peter Hitchens

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and the writer, broadcaster

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and professional poker player Victoria Coren Mitchell.

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APPLAUSE

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And as ever, if you want to join in the debate

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and the argument that goes on here tonight, you can text

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or tweet our hashtag, "bbcqt", you can follow us at @BBCQuestionTime,

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text comments to 83981, push the red button to see what others are saying.

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Let's have our first question from Zayid Ahmed, please.

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Would you support junior doctors if they decide to go on strike?

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Would you support junior doctors if they decide to go on strike?

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Justine Greening.

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Well, I think what needs to happen

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is people need to get around the table

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and talk through to getting a proper solution

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to this junior doctors contract change.

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What we're trying to do is make sure

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that the NHS can work seven days a week

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and really provide outstanding services. At the same time,

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we also know that many junior doctors are completely overworked

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at the weekend and in fact there are some that work over 91 hours a week.

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So these two things go hand in hand.

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Three years ago, the government started negotiating with the BMA.

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Clearly we've not reached a conclusion with them yet.

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Jeremy Hunt put a new, revised offer on the table yesterday

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and I think what we all need now is for people to perhaps set aside

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the discussions and the arguments that they've had up until now

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and just get round the table

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and work through these differences, because in the end...

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Would you oppose them if they decided to strike?

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Would the government say, "That's not right, you shouldn't,"

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or would they say, "Well, we've done our best,

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"you've got an absolute right to go on strike."

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I've talked to junior doctors in my constituency

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and I understand their frustration,

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so I just think in the end they're hugely committed to the NHS

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and I think the best thing we can all do

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is actually get round the table and talk, find a resolution

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that means they don't feel they need to do that any more. Victoria.

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Now, as I understand it, it's rather difficult, though,

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for them to get round the table and negotiate,

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because haven't they been told by Jeremy Hunt

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that if they don't basically agree all the proposals,

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it'll be imposed on them?

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So I think they're allowed to quibble with one thing out of 23.

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How can they sit down and negotiate?

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They're being too... APPLAUSE

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To answer the question, I would.

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I'd support them if they went on strike,

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because not just the issue of, obviously,

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the immediate medical question,

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do you really want to be treated by somebody

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who's working a 91-hour week?

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When you try and do the maths of how many hours that is a day,

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it's sort of terrible. There's a bigger question as well, though,

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which is, I believe the idea is to define overtime as after 10pm

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and Sundays.

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I think most of us are worried, in the age of mobile phones

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and the internet, I think we probably all worry

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where does work finish and life begin, don't we?

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When is our home time?

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Doesn't matter about doctors or anything else -

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if the government is ready to define home time as after 10pm and Sundays,

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is think our way of life generally is going to be sunk.

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The French go on strike

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if their lunch hour is cut down to four hours from the normal five,

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so I think if doctors are going to be in the vanguard of saying,

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"No, I'm sorry,

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"if you're not at home by 8pm and on a full weekend, you're on overtime,"

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if they're going to defend that, good luck to them.

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APPLAUSE

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I'm a junior doctor and I've been balloted for strike action today

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and thank you, Victoria, for bringing up something

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that not many people are aware of.

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The government is quite ready to say

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that the BMA won't come back to the table.

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What a lot of people do not realise

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is that the BMA is unable to come back to the table

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until we agree to 22 non-negotiable preconditions.

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In my view, that is not a negotiation.

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APPLAUSE

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Hold on a second.

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Hold on a second, Peter Hitchens, then you can come back.

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Peter Hitchens.

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I don't think doctors should ever go on strike.

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I just don't think it's something they should do.

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It's one of those things where you have to say,

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this is a job which requires you to be available at all times.

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It doesn't mean I don't sympathise with the case,

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it just means I think the strike weapon is not one you can use.

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The other thing which seems to me to be very noticeable

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is that the doctors have completely ceased to trust Mr Hunt

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and there doesn't seem to be any real communication between them.

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I very much hope that the government finds some way

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of reaching a settlement which doesn't involve the doctors' strike,

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for the sake of all the patients who will suffer as a result of that,

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because they will.

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I remember as an industrial reporter,

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any pledge one ever had from any group that the public

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would not suffer from any withdrawal of emergency service

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was never actually fulfilled.

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It always does hurt people, so I think it should be avoided,

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but I think it may have to be avoided by Mr Hunt departing

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and being replaced by somebody better able to negotiate.

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APPLAUSE

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Let's... Yeah, finish your point.

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What are these...? You say you're only able to negotiate one point?

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Yes. Which is that? I can't remember off the top of my head

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which point exactly it was, but there were 22 non-negotiable points.

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What I wanted to say was

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that we have 50,000 junior doctors whistle-blowing.

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Jeremy Hunt says he endorses whistle-blowing in the NHS.

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We are standing up and saying this contract is unsafe,

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it's going to be fatal for the NHS

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and he will not listen to these 50,000 whistle-blowers. OK.

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You up there, second row from the back.

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I also agree that, obviously, if they do go on strike,

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it's not a good idea, but I think that it actually shows

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how bad the situation is that these people

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who know how important their jobs are

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think that the only option is to go on strike,

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because they're obviously not being heard

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and issues aren't being sorted out,

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so they believe that striking is the only option

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and that just shows how bad it really is. OK.

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And you, sir, in the second row.

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Is a strike really the best way to get the public onside anyway?

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When the Tube drivers did it,

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it didn't really win me their support

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when I had a three-hour journey home from work.

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You think they would be wrong to strike?

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Not necessarily wrong, but it's not going to win their support from me.

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Chuka Umunna, what do you think?

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I agree with what the lady just said.

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Which lady? The last contributor.

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I don't support strike action, because it's going to disrupt

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the services provided to my constituents,

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but I'm certainly not going to condemn the doctors for doing it

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and, really, this is emblematic of the cack-handed approach

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this government has adopted in relation to our NHS generally.

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Dr Sarah Wollaston... APPLAUSE

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Dr Sarah Wollaston is the Conservative chair

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of the Health Select Committee in the House of Commons.

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She is herself a former GP

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and she has criticised the Health Secretary

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for basically negotiating in the media

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with the doctors, without properly negotiating with them direct.

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Is what he's proposing wrong, apart from the way he's negotiating?

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Peter says his way of negotiating is pretty hopeless,

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but what about the issue of increasing the pay by 11%?

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Well, my biggest concern, and the junior doctor -

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I didn't get your name, I'm sorry - just touched on it,

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listening to the junior doctors I have in my constituency

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and also seeing some of the reports...

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Look, the pay, actually, I don't think is necessarily

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the biggest thing here for many of the junior doctors concerned.

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You don't become a doctor because you want to make money.

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You become a doctor because you want to care for people

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and save lives,

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but the issue here is that one of the things they're going

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to be doing is taking away the financial penalty

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which applies to hospitals where they overwork junior doctors

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and this obviously acts as a deterrent

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and prevents our junior doctors becoming so overworked,

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so exhausted that that impacts on the treatment that we're getting.

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That is a big concern.

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I think the second thing is in a recent survey,

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I think 70% of junior doctors are saying that

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if Jeremy Hunt does what he is threatening to do,

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which is impose what is currently on the table on junior doctors,

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70% of them say they will go abroad.

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I'm also worried because of the changes with have been made

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to the rota-ing for weekends and evenings and how you get paid,

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that you're actually going to find that it's very hard

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to find junior doctors prepared to do that.

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But as I said, this comes on top

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of a wasted ?3 billion reorganisation of the NHS

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we were promised we wouldn't get, rising waiting lists

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and it's being handled in a completely cack-handed manner.

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It's disgraceful. You, sir.

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Are we not taking a very short-term view here,

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where we try and save a bit of money

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and then end up driving incredibly skilled, well-trained,

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young professionals that want to dedicate their lives

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to working in the NHS and drive them away

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because the morale within staff that work in the NHS is being depleted

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day after day, not only by politicians that say

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that it's about money, which it completely isn't,

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but also with just being overworked and drained

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and that is a pathway to destroying the NHS.

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Jenny, I'll come to you in a moment,

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but Justine... APPLAUSE

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..can you answer his point?

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Two things - first of all, this isn't actually about money,

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it's not about saving money and, actually,

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junior doctors will be for the first time having a cap

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on the amount of hours they can work

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so that they don't have to work unsafe levels of hours,

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as they do now and, in fact,

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if you go on the NHS Employers website,

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there's actually a pay calculator there where you can go

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and check directly, if you're a junior doctor,

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how this new contract is going to affect you and, actually,

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overwhelmingly, junior doctors will be doing better.

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They certainly won't be doing worse.

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Doing better in terms of the money or the hours they work?

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Well, we'll be capping the hours.

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At the moment, there's around 500 junior doctors

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who routinely end up breaching hours.

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Can you guarantee, Justine, therefore,

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that after the contract comes into effect,

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on the whole, junior doctors will be working less hours

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than at the moment?

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Yes, in the sense that... You're giving a guarantee? ..at the moment,

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at the moment,

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junior doctors in some cases are working over 91 hours a week.

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That's not good for them and it's not good for the NHS.

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Because they're forced to or cos they choose to?

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Well, partly because of the way the system currently works

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and one of the problems around that

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is how the junior doctors' contract worked,

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but I'd like to just come back to the point that the lady over there

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was making, which is I think, actually,

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we do need to get back round the table

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and work our way through this in the end.

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We can have a debate on Question Time,

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but what's really going to fix this is the BMA getting back round

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the table with Jeremy Hunt and I hope that over the coming days,

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that can happen... Do you think that Jeremy Hunt

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can remove this ridiculous gun to the head

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of the 25 non-negotiable points in order for them to negotiate?

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The BMA will get back round the table

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as soon as Jeremy Hunt removes the preconditions

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and we have negotiation. I want to come back to you afterwards

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to see what you made of what Justine said.

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Jenny Jones. This 11% pay rise sounds very good

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until you look at the conditions and then you understand, actually,

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that to get a decent salary,

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junior doctors are probably going to have to work even more hours

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and that is definitely unsafe.

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There's also the fact, of course,

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that junior doctors are probably nearly at the end of their tether,

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they are exhausted, and they could easily decide to go abroad.

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That means all of our investment in their training, in their education,

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has gone and it's wasted, so this, actually, is a very false move.

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We all know the NHS is understaffed,

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underfunded, under-loved, undervalued,

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and it's time that this government,

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instead of trying to break it down piecemeal and sell it off,

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actually understood it's a real, real social asset

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and should be supported.

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OK. APPLAUSE

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And yes, I will support the strike.

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WOULD support the strike, if it happens.

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It was a really eloquent defence of doctors

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and the difficult situation they're in from you, Chuka,

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but at the end of the day,

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how can you as a supposedly Labour MP,

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when doctors are in this position,

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when they're not being negotiated with, when they're out of options,

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not support their right as a body of workers to strike?

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Your party was built on unions.

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I support their right to strike

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and I'm not condemning them for going on strike,

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but, equally, I represent 100,000 people and I want to make sure

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that they can benefit from the services

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that they need to be healthy.

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Ultimately, I owe my ultimate duty

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to the constituents that I represent.

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All right, I'll take one more point, then we'll go on to another question.

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Women in the second row from the back, there.

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I've got two points - first of all, I work in a hospital setting

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and I work with doctors

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and the other day,

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I was just really struck by one of the doctors

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who was already on shift and she said, "Just another 12 hours to go,"

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and you could see that that was a struggle for her

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and she said the way to cope is caffeine and chocolate

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and like I said, I was just really struck by that.

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The second point I just wanted to make, or ask,

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was if not strike, what's the alternative?

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Talk?

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This is the key thing. I'm afraid this is just a lot of hot air

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and it is true what the chap said - your exact words were,

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"I wouldn't support the strike, but I wouldn't blame them for doing it."

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We just can't have this from politicians -

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"I love everyone, everyone's right, no-one's wrong."

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You're so firmly on the fence... Victoria...

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APPLAUSE

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Victoria, it's very easy for you to say that,

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but I represent people who often will be in need

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of very serious treatment and if I was to support strike action

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which was to hinder the treatment that they were getting,

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that would be the wrong thing to do, in my view.

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It's not easy for me to say that. It is easy for you to say it.

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No, it isn't - I need doctors, I've got a baby,

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I want doctors to be available...

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It will get a clap, but in the end, it's not going to do anything.

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No, it won't get a clap.

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That chap there who said it's quite understandable that striking

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is not the way to get public sympathy -

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it never is, it's always the double bind

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that workers have been trapped in.

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Transport workers, doctors - they want the same thing as we do,

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safety, but how to go about getting it?

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Their means of getting it will alienate people,

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it won't get support, but they're stuck.

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No-one will listen.

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But what is the alternative? There is no alternative.

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They need to strike.

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OK. APPLAUSE

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We'll go on, I want to get through some questions,

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but just before we go to the next one,

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Stoke-on-Trent next week, Belfast the week after that,

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if you want to make a note of it.

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Stoke-on-Trent next week, Belfast the week after it.

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The details are there on the screen and I'll give them at the end,

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but let's have a question from Gary Wilson, please.

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Following the suspected bombing

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of a Russian aeroplane in Egypt this week,

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is it time to take full military action against IS?

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Peter Hitchens. No.

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First of all, it's suspected and not proven

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and we shouldn't rush to do things of this kind.

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Secondly, the idea that taking military action

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against Islamic State is going to reduce the terrorist risk

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is an absurdity.

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The military action which this country

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and the United States in particular have taken in the Middle East

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and the other interventions which we've undertaken in the Arab world

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over the past ten or 15 years and indeed in Afghanistan

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have increased the risk to us repeatedly.

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We have no idea what we're doing in these places.

0:16:030:16:05

We destroyed the stability of Iraq

0:16:050:16:07

and replaced it with the chaos out of which IS grew.

0:16:070:16:10

We've destabilised Syria and turned millions

0:16:100:16:13

of reasonably contented people into corpses and refugees,

0:16:130:16:17

we wrecked Libya and turned that into a failed state

0:16:170:16:20

with our brilliant intervention there.

0:16:200:16:22

What is it that makes us think, still, after all these stupid,

0:16:220:16:27

unforgiveable failures of incompetence and ignorance,

0:16:270:16:31

that we are going by another military intervention

0:16:310:16:33

suddenly to make it all right?

0:16:330:16:35

It really is time that as a country we realise that we have...

0:16:350:16:38

APPLAUSE

0:16:380:16:40

Well, Justine Greening, your Defence Secretary, Michael Fallon,

0:16:470:16:50

said today it was morally indefensible Britain was relying

0:16:500:16:54

on other countries to bomb Islamic State targets.

0:16:540:16:57

The French didn't agonise over it, he said,

0:16:570:16:59

but it's morally indefensible for us just to stand back.

0:16:590:17:02

What's your view? First of all, Isil is a threat to the UK.

0:17:020:17:06

We've seen that and we need to take steps to deal with it.

0:17:060:17:10

At the moment,

0:17:100:17:11

we're part of the coalition action against Isil in Iraq,

0:17:110:17:15

but, of course, Isil's also in Syria

0:17:150:17:17

and we're not able to be part of taking action against them,

0:17:170:17:21

so we've got half a strategy, which is why what we want to do

0:17:210:17:24

is build a consensus so that we can win a vote in Parliament

0:17:240:17:28

to actually have a proper strategy that means we can also play our role

0:17:280:17:31

in trying to tackle Isil in Syria and in the meantime,

0:17:310:17:35

the other thing we need to see is for the Russians to actually be part

0:17:350:17:39

of that coalition tackling Isil,

0:17:390:17:41

rather than doing what they're doing at the moment,

0:17:410:17:44

which is actually bombing the Free Syrian Army

0:17:440:17:46

and the Syrian moderate opposition

0:17:460:17:48

is going to be part of Syria's future,

0:17:480:17:50

so they shouldn't be taking action against them.

0:17:500:17:52

Can I just challenge that?

0:17:520:17:53

This constant chorus from the government

0:17:530:17:55

about these "moderates" in Syria.

0:17:550:17:57

The "moderates" in Syria are exactly the same people who they urge us

0:17:570:18:01

to be on guard against in schools and everywhere else in Britain.

0:18:010:18:04

They're not moderates - they're utterly and completely dedicated

0:18:040:18:09

to the extremist Islamic cause

0:18:090:18:13

and we propose to back them, because, actually,

0:18:130:18:15

British foreign policy is not made in London any more.

0:18:150:18:17

It's made in Saudi Arabia

0:18:170:18:19

and our... APPLAUSE

0:18:190:18:21

Our attitude towards all these things is governed

0:18:220:18:25

by our desire to please Saudi Arabia and no other sense at all.

0:18:250:18:28

Justine, just reply to that,

0:18:280:18:30

then I'll come to you in the second row. Thank you.

0:18:300:18:33

I actually met the leader

0:18:330:18:34

of the Syrian moderate opposition in Parliament yesterday.

0:18:340:18:38

He wasn't the kind of person that you've just talked about.

0:18:380:18:41

These are people who are standing up against a brutal Assad regime

0:18:410:18:45

that's barrel bombing ordinary civilians in Syria.

0:18:450:18:49

They talked to me about how there are half a million Syrians now

0:18:490:18:52

who are totally cut off from any help that can be provided to them

0:18:520:18:56

and they need the rest of the world to provide assistance,

0:18:560:19:00

and also to help them tackle Isil too, so that in the end of this,

0:19:000:19:04

when we do reach a political settlement,

0:19:040:19:06

there's a Syria there for them to build a future again in.

0:19:060:19:10

How can you... Hang on.

0:19:100:19:11

No, I'm sorry,

0:19:110:19:12

how can you claim to be against the supposed tyranny of Assad

0:19:120:19:16

when this week, your Prime Minister has welcomed the leader of Egypt,

0:19:160:19:21

who recently killed hundreds of his own people and runs a regime

0:19:210:19:26

if not as repressive as Assad, similarly repressive?

0:19:260:19:30

How can you claim to be principled in this matter?

0:19:300:19:33

You, sir. You're not.

0:19:330:19:34

Let me just say I'm fed up with all these wars in these countries.

0:19:340:19:37

They need to come to an end. Let me say to you, Chuka,

0:19:370:19:40

that Tony Blair was responsible for the Iraq War,

0:19:400:19:43

he needs to be in jail.

0:19:430:19:45

Let me say this - Jenny Jones, your own leader told this nation,

0:19:450:19:49

she said, "Oh, if you're part of Isis,

0:19:490:19:52

"you're not a risk to this country."

0:19:520:19:54

Let me say this - they are a risk to this country

0:19:540:19:57

and if they go to another country,

0:19:570:19:59

they should never be allowed back in this country again.

0:19:590:20:02

It's immoral that they are. All right.

0:20:020:20:04

Chuka Umunna, perhaps you'd start on that and then, Jenny Jones,

0:20:040:20:07

we'll come to you.

0:20:070:20:09

Well, I mean, I didn't support the action in Iraq that happened

0:20:090:20:13

under the last Labour government - I was opposed to it.

0:20:130:20:16

But I think, taking a step back, there are instances

0:20:160:20:20

when the international community should have intervened

0:20:200:20:23

and acted but sat on its hands, like in Bosnia-Herzegovina

0:20:230:20:26

and also Rwanda, where I think, looking back with hindsight,

0:20:260:20:30

we would have preferred that the international community acted.

0:20:300:20:33

So I think to take a view that all military intervention

0:20:330:20:37

and action is necessarily a negative thing and cannot save lives

0:20:370:20:41

and cannot make a positive impact is wrong.

0:20:410:20:45

I don't have anything in principle...

0:20:450:20:47

I don't have any principal objection to military intervention,

0:20:470:20:51

if the questioner was meaning

0:20:510:20:52

whether or not there should be a military intervention in Syria

0:20:520:20:55

going beyond Iraq, but I think the key question is whether it can

0:20:550:21:00

save lives and whether it can make a positive difference, and for me...

0:21:000:21:03

The things I'm most concerned about -

0:21:030:21:05

what is the legal basis for the intervention?

0:21:050:21:08

I think on the whole you would want a UN resolution.

0:21:080:21:11

Is there support amongst the international

0:21:110:21:13

community for intervention?

0:21:130:21:15

Particularly the powers in that area - Turkey, Qatar,

0:21:150:21:18

others in the region.

0:21:180:21:20

What are the military objectives and are they achievable?

0:21:200:21:23

What is - importantly, learning the lessons from Iraq -

0:21:230:21:26

the plan for after?

0:21:260:21:29

And once we have been given the information to make

0:21:290:21:32

a judgment on that, then you can judge whether military

0:21:320:21:35

intervention on the part of the UK would actually make a difference.

0:21:350:21:39

Justine talks about what the government would like to do,

0:21:390:21:41

what it wouldn't like to do.

0:21:410:21:43

It hasn't actually put a proposal to the House of Commons

0:21:430:21:45

to consider yet. I think it's at that point that we can actually make

0:21:450:21:48

a judgment as to what to do.

0:21:480:21:49

But floating ideas and trying to put feelers out in the media

0:21:490:21:52

or talking to Members of Parliament...

0:21:520:21:54

Formally put forward some proposals and then we can consider

0:21:540:21:57

whether it's the right thing - not just in our national security

0:21:570:22:00

interest - but whether actually it can make a positive difference.

0:22:000:22:03

That's a proper way to do it, in my view.

0:22:030:22:05

Jenny Jones. Bombing anywhere... What's your answer for his point?

0:22:050:22:09

..is never an answer.

0:22:090:22:11

The fact is, the US has been bombing Syria for 14 months

0:22:110:22:15

and the situation has not improved, and if anything,

0:22:150:22:18

it has got much, much worse. I want to pick up on something Peter said.

0:22:180:22:21

He said that we destabilised the Middle East,

0:22:210:22:26

and the big problem I have at the moment is we are not taking

0:22:260:22:29

responsibility for what we have done.

0:22:290:22:31

I was in Calais last Friday and met some of the 6,000 refugees,

0:22:310:22:34

many of them from Syria, but all from warzones.

0:22:340:22:37

These are people who don't want to be there -

0:22:370:22:39

they don't even really want to be in Britain.

0:22:390:22:41

What they want to be is back home, safe.

0:22:410:22:44

They want to be free from threats of beheading and crucifixion

0:22:440:22:48

and rape, and the fact is they are there

0:22:480:22:51

because we have been bombing at various times...

0:22:510:22:55

What action, if any, would you think we or other countries should take?

0:22:550:22:59

I think Justine was absolutely right -

0:22:590:23:01

the next step is that all the countries involved have to

0:23:010:23:04

sit down and find some sort of diplomatic means.

0:23:040:23:06

They have to start talking. They've got to stop bombing.

0:23:060:23:09

The idea that the US

0:23:090:23:11

and Russia are now bombing the same country is horrendous -

0:23:110:23:15

there could easily be clashes - so we have to sit down.

0:23:150:23:19

I am not a patient person and, you know, it's difficult for me

0:23:190:23:23

to say we have to sit down and talk but quite honestly,

0:23:230:23:25

bombing has not worked.

0:23:250:23:27

APPLAUSE

0:23:270:23:30

Isn't it worth noting that Isis was able to grow because of our

0:23:330:23:37

intervention and because of our destabilising of the region?

0:23:370:23:40

Surely if we intervene again this is going to give rise to

0:23:400:23:43

something even worse. And the woman behind you.

0:23:430:23:45

APPLAUSE

0:23:450:23:47

I think what has filled the nation and people around the world is

0:23:470:23:51

the unilateral...or ballot for interventions of these countries

0:23:510:23:54

and not working as a unit like they did with Nazis.

0:23:540:23:58

They were able to conquer Nazis when they came together as a body,

0:23:580:24:01

but everyone is going into things...

0:24:010:24:04

Different countries unilaterally -

0:24:040:24:05

Britain went into Iraq, America went into Iraq, Afghanistan.

0:24:050:24:10

Individual countries would never be able to conquer this, so unless

0:24:100:24:12

they come together as a body, they are going to create more problems.

0:24:120:24:16

And you.

0:24:160:24:17

I want to say that Isil is a new phenomenon,

0:24:170:24:19

not only because the Iraqi intervention,

0:24:190:24:22

the Western intervention. But now we have Isil in Libya,

0:24:220:24:25

we have Isil in Egypt where previously we didn't have any,

0:24:250:24:28

and that's because the West is not supporting the transition

0:24:280:24:31

to democracy in the Middle East.

0:24:310:24:33

The Gulf countries and the West have... As Peter said,

0:24:330:24:36

Sisi was here this week and this man has killed thousands of people

0:24:360:24:40

and he has been received with great honours in the UK.

0:24:400:24:43

Can you imagine that...?

0:24:430:24:45

You know, there's a risk of a bomb on a plane on the Russian jet.

0:24:450:24:48

Actually having...such a security breach having happened,

0:24:480:24:52

and he's presenting himself as the man of stability.

0:24:520:24:54

He's the one who's going to beat Isil in Libya,

0:24:540:24:57

and I think that that is absolutely...

0:24:570:24:59

It's not only military.

0:24:590:25:01

You don't have to bomb people in the Middle East to stop Isil,

0:25:010:25:04

you've got to stop people turning to Isil as a solution.

0:25:040:25:08

APPLAUSE

0:25:080:25:11

We want the ballot box back

0:25:140:25:16

and because the UK is welcoming a man who

0:25:160:25:19

threw our votes into the rubbish bin in Egypt,

0:25:190:25:23

then this is a very bad sign for the region

0:25:230:25:26

and I think something should... The opposite should have been done.

0:25:260:25:29

He should never have been welcomed here.

0:25:290:25:31

APPLAUSE

0:25:310:25:34

I mean, I don't have a sophisticated response to this. I think it's...

0:25:340:25:39

People find themselves in a terrible position. On the one hand...

0:25:390:25:42

The stakes seem so high - is it, as you say, like sitting back,

0:25:420:25:45

whether it's Bosnia-Herzegovina,

0:25:450:25:47

whether it's Germany invading Czechoslovakia...?

0:25:470:25:49

Is it sitting back and not helping when we could help

0:25:490:25:51

and letting people die? That's awful.

0:25:510:25:53

Or is it bombing and causing mass death and more instability?

0:25:530:25:57

That's awful. And I sort of...

0:25:570:26:00

I feel like 20 years ago we rather innocently imagined that the people

0:26:000:26:04

that took the decisions knew something we didn't

0:26:040:26:07

and were going to do something competent.

0:26:070:26:09

And what happened with Iraq was...

0:26:090:26:12

Even if they had a secret evil agenda to take

0:26:120:26:15

control of the region, they failed even in that.

0:26:150:26:19

And it was so incompetent that I think it's terribly frightening

0:26:190:26:23

to think the same sort of people are making the same

0:26:230:26:26

sort of decisions again.

0:26:260:26:28

And either way, a terrible mistake can be made,

0:26:280:26:30

and this is not a helpful binary answer to the question,

0:26:300:26:32

but I hope it's a reasonable summary of how most people feel.

0:26:320:26:35

APPLAUSE

0:26:350:26:40

I think the problem with Isil as a whole is the fact that

0:26:400:26:43

we don't actually understand it.

0:26:430:26:44

We need to, you know, to get more intelligence

0:26:440:26:47

and I think the only way that will be achieved is through

0:26:470:26:50

bilateral cooperation, if that's between ourselves

0:26:500:26:52

and the US or people like Saudi Arabia.

0:26:520:26:55

I think the best thing to do is attack this at its roots

0:26:550:26:58

and then go from there, as opposed to jumping in with pre-emptive

0:26:580:27:01

strikes which are going to ultimately cost millions of lives.

0:27:010:27:04

One thing I would like to say, sorry,

0:27:040:27:06

is be careful of the idea we need more intelligence.

0:27:060:27:08

One thing I do know - beware the politicians.

0:27:080:27:12

It's quite convenient for the government that the possibility

0:27:120:27:15

that IS is behind this airstrike comes in the very week

0:27:150:27:18

they're asking for greater powers of surveillance.

0:27:180:27:20

They want to read more of our e-mails and phone calls.

0:27:200:27:23

Beware the search for more intelligence because there's

0:27:230:27:27

other factors at stake that we may not quite understand.

0:27:270:27:30

You, sir, up there, and then we'll go onto another one.

0:27:300:27:32

I think Peter Hitchens is talking absolute nonsense in terms of Syria.

0:27:320:27:35

By not intervening we likely turned it into a bloody mess

0:27:350:27:38

and people have turned to extremism because of that.

0:27:380:27:41

Let him finish the point.

0:27:410:27:42

If you look at the facts, you will clearly see that Isis grew

0:27:420:27:45

because of the chaos that enveloped Syria.

0:27:450:27:47

That's why we're dealing with it now.

0:27:470:27:49

The chaos that enveloped Syria was caused

0:27:490:27:51

by external destabilisation...

0:27:510:27:53

It was caused by the Assad regime.

0:27:530:27:55

..which came out of the Gulf and was supported by the United States,

0:27:550:28:00

by Britain and by France in this curious belief that

0:28:000:28:04

the Syrian regime - horrible though it undoubtedly is -

0:28:040:28:08

was in some way, as we claim, worse than anyone else in the Middle East.

0:28:080:28:13

In fact, that's simply not true. Barrel bombs, we talked about.

0:28:130:28:16

Nouri al-Maliki, our friend in Iraq, has used barrel bombs in Fallujah.

0:28:160:28:19

There's hardly a Middle Eastern state...

0:28:190:28:21

Bahrain, in which we've just opened a naval base, uses torture

0:28:210:28:24

and hideous repression against its people

0:28:240:28:26

and we have no principled objection to that.

0:28:260:28:28

The idea that our objection to Syria is its tyranny is simply

0:28:280:28:32

not true, and the other thing about this is

0:28:320:28:34

the intransigence of the Syrian opposition, backed by us

0:28:340:28:38

and the United States and by the Gulf,

0:28:380:28:40

refusing to go to any negotiations in which Assad did not go,

0:28:400:28:45

has prevented any kind of attempted diplomatic solution now for years

0:28:450:28:50

and all the people who have been driven from their homes

0:28:500:28:53

and killed and maimed during that time can turn to those who said,

0:28:530:28:58

"We will not negotiate unless Assad goes,"

0:28:580:29:00

and say, "Why couldn't you make a compromise?

0:29:000:29:02

"Were our lives and our homes so unimportant to you by comparison

0:29:020:29:06

"to that that you were prepared to demand that forever?"

0:29:060:29:09

That's what has been going on. Jenny Jones, briefly. Intransigence.

0:29:090:29:14

Jenny Jones, very briefly.

0:29:140:29:15

I've worked and visited Syria many, many times

0:29:150:29:18

and the fact is that it was an incredibly stable country.

0:29:180:29:22

Considering it was a vile dictatorship and so on,

0:29:220:29:24

it was actually a very safe, stable country.

0:29:240:29:27

People were repressed, but actually they got on with their lives,

0:29:270:29:30

there was a lot of employment, food was cheap -

0:29:300:29:33

it was a good place to live, and believe me,

0:29:330:29:36

our bombing has made it one of the worst places on Earth to live.

0:29:360:29:40

APPLAUSE

0:29:400:29:43

Sean Wigan, please, your question. Sean Wigan.

0:29:430:29:46

How do we house the high number of immigrants arriving, considering

0:29:460:29:50

the shortage of council houses available for existing UK residents?

0:29:500:29:53

We have a lot of questions about housing here in Tottenham tonight.

0:29:530:29:56

How do we house the high number of immigrants arriving,

0:29:560:29:59

considering the shortage of council houses available to UK residents?

0:29:590:30:03

Chuka Umunna.

0:30:030:30:05

Well, I think two things. First of all, it's not just homes for rent.

0:30:050:30:10

It's obviously homes that people want to buy.

0:30:100:30:13

But ultimately, we've got to build more homes

0:30:130:30:15

if we're to deal with both the situation

0:30:150:30:18

of an inflated housing market, but also high rents.

0:30:180:30:21

One of the problems we've got in the area that I represent,

0:30:210:30:24

particularly in an urban centre like London,

0:30:240:30:26

I represent one of the constituencies in Lambeth,

0:30:260:30:29

is that we simply do not have enough space to build more homes.

0:30:290:30:32

And one of the challenges that our council is facing,

0:30:320:30:35

it wants to increase the number of homes,

0:30:350:30:37

but the only place it can actually build them

0:30:370:30:39

is on existing council estates.

0:30:390:30:41

But ultimately, we've got to invest in that.

0:30:410:30:43

We've also got to sort out the planning rules.

0:30:430:30:46

But in the rented sector,

0:30:460:30:48

as we see the private rented market increase as a share of the tenure

0:30:480:30:53

that we have here in London,

0:30:530:30:56

we've got a Wild West situation

0:30:560:30:58

where, frankly, people are being ripped off by many landlords,

0:30:580:31:03

are facing exorbitant rent increases

0:31:030:31:06

and there isn't proper regulation in the market.

0:31:060:31:09

Which is why one of the things we were proposing to do

0:31:090:31:11

in the lead into the general election

0:31:110:31:13

was to cap the amount of rent increases that people are facing,

0:31:130:31:15

but also stop these agents charging these extortionate fees

0:31:150:31:19

every time you're moving home.

0:31:190:31:21

So far, we've seen no action from the government

0:31:210:31:23

to do anything about this.

0:31:230:31:25

When, actually, I see many, you know, many constituents

0:31:250:31:28

who, for them, never mind they're not being paid enough in their work,

0:31:280:31:31

but housing costs are taking up most of their income.

0:31:310:31:34

But is your question about immigration as well as about housing?

0:31:340:31:37

No, it's more in regards to housing, more than immigration.

0:31:370:31:42

Probably more in line.

0:31:420:31:43

Because I work for the criminal justice system

0:31:430:31:46

in a probation hostel

0:31:460:31:47

and, over a number of years,

0:31:470:31:49

it's quite difficult for residents moving on to obtain housing.

0:31:490:31:54

And I'm just wondering,

0:31:540:31:56

if it's so difficult for the existing UK residents

0:31:560:31:59

to get council properties,

0:31:590:32:01

how are we then housing the immigrants coming over?

0:32:010:32:04

OK, you in the front row?

0:32:040:32:05

Yeah, I actually used to live in rented accommodation

0:32:050:32:08

in London for a few years

0:32:080:32:09

and I've just moved to the East Village in Stratford,

0:32:090:32:11

which is the old Olympic accommodation.

0:32:110:32:13

Now, that's owned by a housing association.

0:32:130:32:15

It's got capped rent on inflation and the difference I saw there,

0:32:150:32:19

which will be negligible, 1.5% increases,

0:32:190:32:21

against a 10% increase in my last place in Clapham

0:32:210:32:24

with no, any improvements made at all, that's got to be the solution.

0:32:240:32:29

It's the only solution.

0:32:290:32:30

OK. And you? I work as a nurse in Islington

0:32:300:32:33

and the amount of patients that we have to see

0:32:330:32:35

that need housing sorted out through the council

0:32:350:32:38

and the amount of time that takes up.

0:32:380:32:40

So I spend probably 30% of my week in the council,

0:32:400:32:44

trying to sort out housing.

0:32:440:32:46

But then, you know, it affects their mental health problems, as well.

0:32:460:32:50

And it's just the whole system needs to be sorted out.

0:32:500:32:53

It does. And one of the problems is,

0:32:530:32:55

we should be building around 50,000 new homes,

0:32:550:32:58

at least 50,000 new homes a year here in London.

0:32:580:33:01

And yet, under the current mayor,

0:33:010:33:03

we've seen a build of around 20,000 new homes.

0:33:030:33:07

And unless you build more, you invest more

0:33:070:33:10

and also address some of the planning constraints,

0:33:100:33:12

we are not going to be able to get a grip on this. All right, Victoria?

0:33:120:33:15

It's a knock-on effect.

0:33:150:33:16

Because then what happens is, like,

0:33:160:33:18

we know how strained the NHS is and, as a nurse,

0:33:180:33:20

I'm having to spend my week in the council

0:33:200:33:22

because there's problems with the council.

0:33:220:33:24

So less patients get seen by me, there's less treatment being done,

0:33:240:33:27

because I'm spending 30% of my week in the council.

0:33:270:33:30

So it's a knock-on effect.

0:33:300:33:32

OK, you, sir, up there on the right?

0:33:320:33:34

I've got to be honest with you, spare us your crocodile tears.

0:33:350:33:38

Because it was you, alongside the Tories,

0:33:380:33:40

that sold off those council houses,

0:33:400:33:43

that drove those people

0:33:430:33:45

back into the hands of those unethical landlords

0:33:450:33:48

that, you know, you seem to be crying for.

0:33:480:33:50

You know, if it wasn't for you carrying out Tory policies

0:33:500:33:54

that drove those people into the hands of those landlords,

0:33:540:33:57

we wouldn't have this crisis right now.

0:33:570:33:59

I'm sorry, that's garbage, rubbish. That's not true.

0:33:590:34:02

So I think, for me, it's really important

0:34:030:34:05

that young people growing up in London

0:34:050:34:07

do feel like they've got the chance to get on the property ladder

0:34:070:34:10

and that means doing three...

0:34:100:34:11

SOME OF THE AUDIENCE OBJECTS

0:34:110:34:13

It means doing...

0:34:130:34:15

It means doing three things. One is getting on with building more homes.

0:34:150:34:19

And actually, over the last few years,

0:34:190:34:20

we have seen more council homes built.

0:34:200:34:22

We've have seen more affordable homes built.

0:34:220:34:25

No, no, no, I'm sorry.

0:34:250:34:27

The idea of young people...

0:34:270:34:29

If I can just finish?

0:34:290:34:31

So part of this is building more homes,

0:34:310:34:33

including starter homes, which will be at 80% of the market value.

0:34:330:34:38

Alongside that, then, it's helping young people

0:34:380:34:41

be able to get the deposit that they need

0:34:410:34:43

to be able to buy those homes, as well.

0:34:430:34:45

Which is where Help to Buy is making a big difference

0:34:450:34:48

in reducing the amount of deposits that people need.

0:34:480:34:52

And the last thing, though,

0:34:520:34:53

is around many of the housing estates

0:34:530:34:56

that are all in our local communities,

0:34:560:34:58

which I think, over the coming years,

0:34:580:35:00

have a real chance to be regenerated,

0:35:000:35:03

providing better and new housing stock for existing residents.

0:35:030:35:06

But also, giving us the chance to create more homes

0:35:060:35:09

and more housing for new people growing up in communities...

0:35:090:35:13

But you say that. Why under the coalition...

0:35:130:35:15

But housebuilding is at its lowest,

0:35:150:35:17

according to the government's own figures, since the 1920s.

0:35:170:35:20

How come?

0:35:200:35:21

We've built 600,000...

0:35:210:35:22

However many you've built, its lower than it was in 1920.

0:35:220:35:26

The lowest since 1920.

0:35:260:35:27

We've built 600,000 new homes since 2010.

0:35:270:35:31

And, actually, housing starts in the past 12 months...

0:35:310:35:34

How many a year is that? Since 2010?

0:35:340:35:36

Housing starts in the past 12 months...

0:35:360:35:39

Sorry, housing planning that's been given permission

0:35:390:35:41

in the last 12 months is over 250,000 units.

0:35:410:35:46

So there are homes being built.

0:35:460:35:48

But I think we're dealing with

0:35:480:35:50

quite a long-term generational lack of homes that have been built,

0:35:500:35:53

especially in London.

0:35:530:35:55

And it's taking time to get that turned around.

0:35:550:35:57

But is being turned around,

0:35:570:35:58

which is why more affordable homes are being built,

0:35:580:36:00

more council homes are being built... OK.

0:36:000:36:03

And, actually, we are seeing people

0:36:030:36:04

being able to get into the housing market.

0:36:040:36:06

The person up there in the second row from the back. You in blue?

0:36:060:36:10

Hi. I used to live in Lambeth,

0:36:100:36:11

actually opposite your surgery, Chuka.

0:36:110:36:13

I'm having to move out of London.

0:36:130:36:15

I earn a decent wage, I'm a Londoner,

0:36:150:36:17

but I can't afford the rent.

0:36:170:36:18

And you say there's no room to build more houses.

0:36:180:36:21

But if you get the bus around Lambeth/Wandsworth,

0:36:210:36:23

there's plenty of room to build luxury apartments, luxury flats.

0:36:230:36:26

I can't afford them.

0:36:260:36:28

APPLAUSE

0:36:280:36:29

You, sir?

0:36:290:36:31

Yes?

0:36:340:36:36

Yeah, you're saying, you're quoting figures, 50,000 targets,

0:36:360:36:39

20,000 houses being built.

0:36:390:36:41

But like what was just said,

0:36:410:36:42

what percentage of those houses are affordable?

0:36:420:36:45

All these figures...

0:36:450:36:46

20,000, are they all affordable housing

0:36:460:36:49

or a percentage of that is luxury housing?

0:36:490:36:51

And the man next to you?

0:36:510:36:53

Chuka can talk about the number of houses being built,

0:36:530:36:56

but when Labour were in power, they only built 13,000 houses.

0:36:560:37:00

There were more houses built in the last year

0:37:000:37:02

when Margaret Thatcher was in power, council houses.

0:37:020:37:05

That's right.

0:37:050:37:07

I'm sorry, that is not a figure I recognise. Before the crash...

0:37:070:37:10

You might not recognise it, but it's true, though.

0:37:100:37:12

Before the crash,

0:37:120:37:14

we were building around 240,000 new homes a year across the UK.

0:37:140:37:18

Not council houses.

0:37:180:37:19

Now, in terms of the council houses, to pick up on my former constituent.

0:37:190:37:24

I'm sorry to be losing you. Yeah.

0:37:240:37:27

We're sorry to have lost you.

0:37:290:37:33

But, of course, the problem is,

0:37:330:37:34

going to your point about the space issue,

0:37:340:37:36

it's space that Lambeth actually owns.

0:37:360:37:38

They simply don't have the money,

0:37:380:37:41

given the cuts they've sustained, 50% of their budget going,

0:37:410:37:43

to buy up all the private land that you're talking about.

0:37:430:37:46

So that leaves them with their land to build on

0:37:460:37:48

and they don't have enough of it.

0:37:480:37:49

Do you think we should cut rents, though, like they do in Berlin?

0:37:490:37:52

I'm very sympathetic to exercising that control on rent,

0:37:520:37:56

which is why, you know, having a cap on the increase

0:37:560:37:59

that people are subject to by their landlords every year

0:37:590:38:02

was something that I was elected on.

0:38:020:38:03

That was a manifesto that I was elected on.

0:38:030:38:05

Are you in favour of controlled rents? I'm very sympathetic to it.

0:38:050:38:08

Sympathetic doesn't mean... Yes, yes! You are in favour? Yes, I am.

0:38:080:38:11

You are in favour? You'd vote for it? I would vote for capping rents.

0:38:110:38:14

OK, Corbyn would be with you on that one.

0:38:140:38:16

I think so. Yeah.

0:38:160:38:18

Victoria?

0:38:180:38:19

First of all, it needs to be said that the idea

0:38:190:38:22

that any young person, really,

0:38:220:38:24

unless they're the child of a Russian oligarch,

0:38:240:38:26

could live in London any more is preposterous.

0:38:260:38:28

APPLAUSE

0:38:280:38:30

It is an absolute pipedream.

0:38:320:38:35

You know, here in Tottenham, which is not central London,

0:38:350:38:38

in fact it's one of poorest places in Europe,

0:38:380:38:40

in Tottenham a one-bedroom flat can cost you ?400,000.

0:38:400:38:43

It's a stupid amount of money.

0:38:430:38:45

80% of it is a stupid amount of money.

0:38:450:38:47

No-one can afford to live here

0:38:470:38:48

and of course they could build more houses.

0:38:480:38:51

I don't know how many council houses were built in London

0:38:510:38:53

in the last year, probably about 40.

0:38:530:38:55

I mean, a ridiculous amount.

0:38:550:38:56

There needs to be a proper revolution.

0:38:560:38:59

And I know you would say it's easy for me to say

0:38:590:39:01

because I'm not a politician, but I'm not, and it is, so I will.

0:39:010:39:04

I think what has to happen is all of the young people

0:39:040:39:06

and all of the workforce just have to leave London.

0:39:060:39:08

They've just got to make themselves work somewhere else.

0:39:080:39:11

The Government has to find something to offer people

0:39:110:39:13

outside London to regenerate other parts of the country.

0:39:130:39:16

And they'll leave

0:39:160:39:17

and all these super-wealthy people with their iceberg houses

0:39:170:39:19

will be left with no nurses and no policeman and no firemen

0:39:190:39:22

and no-one to clean their houses

0:39:220:39:24

and no-one to deliver the mail to the houses.

0:39:240:39:25

APPLAUSE

0:39:250:39:27

The last thing I want to say, which is also very important,

0:39:270:39:30

is be very careful, though, about talking about immigration.

0:39:300:39:33

It's not about immigration. This isn't a population problem.

0:39:330:39:36

It's only very recently that London has returned

0:39:360:39:39

to the population level of 1945.

0:39:390:39:41

It's not the number of people, it's the cost of the houses

0:39:410:39:44

and the type that are being built.

0:39:440:39:45

All right. You, sir, at the front?

0:39:450:39:47

Yes? I actually work in the London property market

0:39:470:39:50

and I've got two quick points to make.

0:39:500:39:52

I mean, the Help to Buy scheme is a complete failure.

0:39:520:39:55

As, in order to qualify to buy one of these properties,

0:39:550:39:58

you need to be on ?70,000, ?80,000, ?90,000 at least.

0:39:580:40:01

So that's one point. The second point, I've seen rents go up

0:40:010:40:04

by at least 15 to 20% in the last two years, and wages are not coming

0:40:040:40:08

up to that level.

0:40:080:40:10

And that simply is a supply-and-demand issue.

0:40:100:40:12

You talk about building these houses, but where are they?

0:40:120:40:15

Where are they being built? Jenny Jones.

0:40:150:40:18

SCATTERED APPLAUSE

0:40:180:40:19

I've got so much to say on this that I'm going to trip over myself.

0:40:190:40:23

But, basically, what's happening here in London, the driving out

0:40:230:40:27

of people, it's not just

0:40:270:40:28

the cleaners and the baristas

0:40:280:40:30

and people like that who are on

0:40:300:40:31

low pay who are getting driven out,

0:40:310:40:33

it's academics, it's junior doctors,

0:40:330:40:35

it's all the sort of people that we need to keep our city going.

0:40:350:40:39

And there are all sorts of things we could do but we in general

0:40:390:40:42

are choosing not to do.

0:40:420:40:44

I've been watching Boris Johnson over the past seven and a half years

0:40:440:40:48

fairly up close and personal,

0:40:480:40:50

and he, when he came in, redefined affordable housing.

0:40:500:40:53

It's all very well talking about building affordable housing.

0:40:530:40:56

We all agree on that. But actually, affordable has to be

0:40:560:40:59

affordable for everybody.

0:40:590:41:00

It's not affordable if you earn ?80,000 and you can't buy it

0:41:000:41:04

if you earn any less. That's not affordable.

0:41:040:41:07

He redefined "affordable".

0:41:070:41:08

We should think about rent caps, of course we should.

0:41:080:41:11

We've tried things like landlord registers,

0:41:110:41:14

because of course a lot of people, if you're in rented accommodation

0:41:140:41:17

and you complain about your boiler, you get kicked out

0:41:170:41:20

because it's such a bad market for people who are trying to rent.

0:41:200:41:24

We should also be bringing empty properties back into use.

0:41:240:41:28

There's something called the Land Value Tax,

0:41:280:41:30

which is too complicated to go into, but that basically penalises you

0:41:300:41:33

for leaving a building empty for any length of time.

0:41:330:41:36

There's also, for example, social housing.

0:41:360:41:40

We should be building social housing.

0:41:400:41:42

I grew up in a council house in Brighton just after the war.

0:41:420:41:48

It was brilliant. My parents were on a really low income,

0:41:480:41:51

a hospital chef and a dinner lady.

0:41:510:41:53

Nowadays, they would never have access to that sort of...

0:41:530:41:56

Well, it's harder and harder for people like that,

0:41:560:41:59

families like that, to have access to social housing.

0:41:590:42:01

So many councils are building... Well, they're starting to build

0:42:010:42:04

social housing, but what they're doing, of course,

0:42:040:42:07

is they're selling off some of the flats

0:42:070:42:09

to offshore investors and people who see it as an investment.

0:42:090:42:14

Housing is for people who live in the city.

0:42:140:42:18

It is not something to make huge amounts of money out of.

0:42:180:42:20

All right. Thank you. OK. Thank you. APPLAUSE

0:42:200:42:22

Peter Hitchens.

0:42:230:42:25

Yeah, first of all, it's quite plain that our housing policy

0:42:260:42:28

in this country has been a catastrophe for many years,

0:42:280:42:31

and one of the things which has made it so

0:42:310:42:33

was the sale of council houses, which everybody says was wonderful,

0:42:330:42:36

which I think we must recognise was a disaster.

0:42:360:42:39

It destroyed a huge amount

0:42:390:42:40

of rented housing stock,

0:42:400:42:42

incredibly valuable to people

0:42:420:42:43

who had to work

0:42:430:42:44

and needed to move to work,

0:42:440:42:46

and replaced it with the absolute

0:42:460:42:48

catastrophe of housing benefit,

0:42:480:42:50

which currently costs more than the Royal Air Force to maintain

0:42:500:42:53

and is an immensely expensive way of trying to house people.

0:42:530:42:57

We've also repeatedly had governments which have sought

0:42:570:43:00

to cover up their failure to create a productive economy

0:43:000:43:03

by pumping up housing bubbles to try and sustain the economic figures

0:43:030:43:08

and make themselves look good, during which time

0:43:080:43:10

we have accumulated a national debt of ?1.5 trillion,

0:43:100:43:13

?1.5 trillion, completely unpayable.

0:43:130:43:17

And this constant use of housing bubbles

0:43:170:43:20

and of pumping money into housing

0:43:200:43:22

to try and save themselves from serious economic decisions

0:43:220:43:26

has been one of the causes...

0:43:260:43:28

Are you saying there's a motive not to build houses?

0:43:280:43:30

Well, the housing policy is not directed by any desire

0:43:300:43:33

to build houses.

0:43:330:43:34

The housing policy is directed to cover up for the fact

0:43:340:43:37

that they've failed to manage the economy of the country

0:43:370:43:39

over several decades.

0:43:390:43:40

And Victoria, although a lot of what she said

0:43:400:43:43

about housing in London was extremely sensible,

0:43:430:43:45

for Justine Greening to imagine that young people

0:43:450:43:47

can buy property in London...

0:43:470:43:49

This is the best government that hedge funds could buy,

0:43:490:43:52

and they obviously spend time with nobody else but hedge-fund managers

0:43:520:43:55

if they think that any young people can afford houses.

0:43:550:43:58

But the problem that we also face is that how can a country

0:43:580:44:02

which has such a major problem in housing, how can it conceivably

0:44:020:44:06

have a policy of undiscriminating,

0:44:060:44:08

non-selective mass immigration at the same time?

0:44:080:44:11

Is this not guaranteed to cause greater problems

0:44:110:44:13

than you already have?

0:44:130:44:15

To say the number of people makes no difference is absurd.

0:44:150:44:17

No, I didn't say the number of people makes no difference.

0:44:170:44:20

I said it would be wrong to imagine that the population of London

0:44:200:44:23

is too big because of immigrants

0:44:230:44:24

when it's only the same as it was in the '40s.

0:44:240:44:26

I don't live in London, and I recognise the existence

0:44:260:44:29

of other parts of the country, but there is absolutely no doubt -

0:44:290:44:32

and the recent projections show that our population is rising

0:44:320:44:36

towards 70 million at an astonishing rate -

0:44:360:44:38

there is no doubt that there are a lot more people in this country

0:44:380:44:41

than there used to be, and a great deal of them are the result

0:44:410:44:45

of uncontrolled mass immigration, which we will not control

0:44:450:44:48

and which, until we leave the European Union, we can't control.

0:44:480:44:50

APPLAUSE

0:44:500:44:53

If you think one should control the population

0:44:530:44:55

where it's too big, and the main reason, if the population

0:44:550:44:57

is too big, is because it's ageing, people are living longer,

0:44:570:45:00

how do we control that? Should we get rid of the old folk as well?

0:45:000:45:03

Well, if you have, as I say, a set of existing circumstances,

0:45:030:45:07

of which that may be one, which have caused a major housing crisis

0:45:070:45:12

and problems for almost anybody seeking to buy a house,

0:45:120:45:15

it doesn't seem to me to be sensible to bring in a very large

0:45:150:45:18

number of people who haven't got houses to live in at the same time.

0:45:180:45:21

Isn't that elementary? We don't have a housing crisis... Oh, no(!)

0:45:210:45:26

..because of immigrants but because we haven't built enough homes.

0:45:260:45:29

All right. We've got ten minutes, and I want a couple more questions,

0:45:290:45:33

or at least one more, if I can,

0:45:330:45:35

before we come to the end of the programme.

0:45:350:45:37

James Barton's question, please, next.

0:45:370:45:39

Are cuts to the police force endangering the public?

0:45:390:45:42

Cuts to the police force, are they endangering the public?

0:45:420:45:46

The Met here in London believes it faces cuts of up to a billion

0:45:460:45:50

over the next five years.

0:45:500:45:52

Jenny Jones, I think you're in a position to answer this,

0:45:520:45:55

because you're on the London Assembly police committee but you're also

0:45:550:45:58

defined - I think I've got this right - as a domestic extremist by the Met.

0:45:580:46:02

Is that right? So you're running the police,

0:46:020:46:05

who define you as a danger, presumably.

0:46:050:46:09

Yes, I was tagged as a domestic extremist by the Met Police.

0:46:090:46:12

I was on their database for ten years.

0:46:120:46:15

They've told me I've been taken off, but I've actually

0:46:150:46:17

reapplied for my file to find out if they actually have taken me off.

0:46:170:46:22

I've been a critic of the police for a long, long time,

0:46:220:46:25

but even I think that these cuts are starting to endanger the public.

0:46:250:46:30

The fact is, they were so fast, so savage - by a Tory government!

0:46:300:46:34

Who'd have thought a Tory government would slash at police

0:46:340:46:37

funding like that?

0:46:370:46:38

Nobody doubts there was fat to trim from all the police budgets,

0:46:380:46:42

but it's gone too far.

0:46:420:46:44

They were done so quickly, the cuts, that the

0:46:440:46:46

police themselves had no time to be strategic about the cuts.

0:46:460:46:49

They had to sort of slash and burn.

0:46:490:46:52

And that's no way to run any sort of police force.

0:46:520:46:54

And does it endanger the public? I think it does. I think it does.

0:46:540:46:58

The real problem for the Met Police in particular

0:46:580:47:01

is of course that they have a lot of other functions,

0:47:010:47:03

international and domestic, that other police forces don't have,

0:47:030:47:08

and the Government repeatedly doesn't pay them for it.

0:47:080:47:11

Assange, for example,

0:47:110:47:12

keeping him trapped in the embassy for all those years, ?12 million.

0:47:120:47:16

The Met hasn't seen a penny of it. At least, I hope that's still true.

0:47:160:47:19

But perhaps they will tomorrow, now I've mentioned it.

0:47:190:47:22

All right. You, sir, in the middle there.

0:47:220:47:24

It just goes sort of hand in hand with Tories just making stuff up.

0:47:240:47:27

I mean, the manifestos that I heard of in this election just gone

0:47:270:47:31

and the election in 2010 with the coalition said that there'd be more

0:47:310:47:35

patrolling generally in areas, and there definitely isn't.

0:47:350:47:39

My area generally, I'm lucky

0:47:390:47:40

if I call the police for anything and they actually turn up three

0:47:400:47:44

hours later, only to look around, walk around a bit

0:47:440:47:46

and then just move off again. So cuts are just a joke, aren't they?

0:47:460:47:50

And you, sir, in the white shirt there.

0:47:500:47:53

Thank you. Justine, I would just like to know, the Tories have always

0:47:530:47:56

had a very good relationship with the police,

0:47:560:47:58

so why are you making these cuts now?

0:47:580:48:00

If you look at crime across the board, actually, in London,

0:48:000:48:04

it's fallen dramatically over the last few years.

0:48:040:48:07

MURMURING IN AUDIENCE

0:48:070:48:08

At the same time, people who have been victims of crime are saying

0:48:080:48:12

they're more satisfied, actually, with how they're being dealt with

0:48:120:48:15

with the police.

0:48:150:48:16

At the same time as that, we also need to make sure that we

0:48:160:48:20

deliver on making sure our public finances are affordable

0:48:200:48:23

for the public, and that includes making sure that...

0:48:230:48:26

the policing we have is on a sustainable

0:48:260:48:29

footing in terms of how much money's going into it.

0:48:290:48:33

So we're trying to make these different objectives match up.

0:48:330:48:37

I think we are getting there. But we've been elected to try

0:48:370:48:41

and get the rest of that deficit that we inherited dealt with.

0:48:410:48:46

It doesn't do us any good to hand over a whole load

0:48:460:48:49

of debts to the next generation. We're getting on with doing that.

0:48:490:48:52

We've got the spending review in November, which will set out how

0:48:520:48:56

we're going to make the next set of savings in terms of public finances.

0:48:560:49:01

But I meet up with my borough commander

0:49:010:49:04

regularly in Wandsworth, and actually, they do

0:49:040:49:07

work very hard to look at how they can run themselves more

0:49:070:49:10

effectively, more efficiently, and I think it's wrong to say that the

0:49:100:49:14

changes in funding are just suddenly being put onto the Met Police.

0:49:140:49:18

They are challenging, they are difficult,

0:49:180:49:20

but actually, people are working to make sure

0:49:200:49:22

how we can make sure policing in London is able to continue

0:49:220:49:26

to be as successful in the future as it's been in the past,

0:49:260:49:29

but at the same time, it's done in a way

0:49:290:49:31

that has a sustainable level of funding

0:49:310:49:33

that's going to be affordable.

0:49:330:49:35

Hang on - you say that it's...that crime is falling,

0:49:350:49:40

but the figures for London on knife crime show a big rise.

0:49:400:49:43

Knife crime is up... 18% increase.

0:49:430:49:47

If you look at crime, violent crime, including on transport,

0:49:470:49:50

for example, you've seen year-on-year reductions.

0:49:500:49:54

So the reality is... Justine... ..crime overall has fallen.

0:49:540:49:58

We want to see those trends continue.

0:49:580:50:00

But at the same time, we've got to make sure that our police

0:50:000:50:03

is funded in a sustainable way.

0:50:030:50:05

Knife crime is up 14%, serious youth violence is up 8%,

0:50:050:50:09

youth gang offences are up 23%.

0:50:090:50:12

Is this because of cuts to the police?

0:50:120:50:14

Well, I asked this question.

0:50:140:50:16

I sit on the Home Affairs Select Committee.

0:50:160:50:18

We took evidence from a number of chief constables

0:50:180:50:21

and I asked them the specific question,

0:50:210:50:23

the question just asked - will the public...

0:50:230:50:25

"Will you be able to keep the public safe in the way that you have

0:50:250:50:29

"up to now, after these cuts?"

0:50:290:50:30

And they doubted their ability to do that,

0:50:300:50:32

particularly the chief constable for Lancashire.

0:50:320:50:35

There are two specific issues that I have.

0:50:350:50:37

We in London are facing losing more than 5,000 officers.

0:50:370:50:41

At the moment, there are proposals

0:50:410:50:42

to lose all of our Police Community Support Officers.

0:50:420:50:45

We have a particular problem in my borough, next to Justine's,

0:50:450:50:48

of serious youth violence.

0:50:480:50:50

Neighbourhood policing is absolutely fundamental

0:50:500:50:53

to preventing this gang culture capturing our young people.

0:50:530:50:56

APPLAUSE

0:50:560:50:57

Are you talking about the money that's provided

0:50:570:51:00

or about the way the police use the money? Two different... Both.

0:51:000:51:03

I asked the Met Commissioner, the Deputy Met Commissioner,

0:51:030:51:05

who we had in front of us, I said,

0:51:050:51:07

"How important is neighbourhood policing

0:51:070:51:09

"and will you be able to carry on the prevention work around gangs

0:51:090:51:12

"with the level of cuts sustained? Will that not be more difficult?"

0:51:120:51:15

He said that'll be very challenging. The other big issue we're looking at

0:51:150:51:18

in my borough is we've had quite a lot of...

0:51:180:51:21

We've got historic child abuse investigations.

0:51:210:51:23

Of course, it's not historic for the people who are the victims

0:51:230:51:25

and survivors of that.

0:51:250:51:27

But the money that is going into that

0:51:270:51:29

is being taken out of the general pot.

0:51:290:51:31

There isn't even a specific sum of money for this very serious issue

0:51:310:51:36

that has particularly come to the fore

0:51:360:51:37

over the last two to three years.

0:51:370:51:39

Actually, if you look at the Met, of the 30,000 referrers

0:51:390:51:41

that are expected from Justice Goddard's inquiry

0:51:410:51:45

into historic child abuse,

0:51:450:51:47

half of those are going to be in London.

0:51:470:51:49

They are not provided with any extra resources for the investigation.

0:51:490:51:53

I'll come to you, sir, in the front - briefly, you wouldn't make any cuts

0:51:530:51:56

in the pricing of...? We believe... Labour would spend...

0:51:560:51:58

You could make up to 10% cuts. That's it. You would make cuts.

0:51:580:52:01

Fine. I just want to make the point. They're cutting...

0:52:010:52:03

The original Met budget is going to be a third less

0:52:030:52:06

than what it was after those cuts.

0:52:060:52:08

We do not believe that the police can sustain that.

0:52:080:52:11

A contributing factor to our problems with the police

0:52:110:52:15

is mismanagement of what we can afford.

0:52:150:52:18

It is too top-heavy.

0:52:180:52:20

We've got chief constables, deputy chief constables

0:52:200:52:25

assistant chief constables, deputy assistant chief constables...

0:52:250:52:30

I'm not making it up, it's a fact.

0:52:300:52:32

APPLAUSE

0:52:320:52:34

No, no... It's a fact, it's a fact.

0:52:340:52:40

After that, you've got chief superintendents,

0:52:400:52:42

they've got superintendents,

0:52:420:52:44

they've got chief inspectors, inspectors,

0:52:440:52:46

before you get to sergeants, and then...and then...

0:52:460:52:50

Look at the salary of our own commissioner in London -

0:52:500:52:54

?400,000 a year.

0:52:540:52:56

And I'm not talking about the extras.

0:52:560:52:59

Compare that salary with that of the constable - ?28,000.

0:52:590:53:03

All right, Peter Hitchens. Thank you very much.

0:53:030:53:05

APPLAUSE I think we get the point!

0:53:050:53:07

It's a good point, but some years ago,

0:53:070:53:10

I got tired of listening to the police complaining about

0:53:100:53:13

how they couldn't do what they were supposed to do

0:53:130:53:15

because they didn't have enough numbers.

0:53:150:53:18

The truth is that, for some years,

0:53:180:53:19

there have been far more police officers in the country -

0:53:190:53:22

both per head of the population and in total -

0:53:220:53:26

than there were in the '60s,

0:53:260:53:28

when we had much more effective policing than we do now.

0:53:280:53:31

The reason for the problem is that the police... The '60s?

0:53:310:53:34

The Met was the most corrupt... They're very nice people.

0:53:340:53:36

They've very nice people but they do the wrong thing all the time.

0:53:360:53:41

If you are burgled or if you are robbed or if you are mugged,

0:53:410:53:44

the police cannot unburgle you or unmug you or...or unrob you.

0:53:440:53:49

Nothing... Are the cuts endangering the public, Peter, is the question?

0:53:490:53:53

We only have a short time. I know what the question is,

0:53:530:53:56

but if you just have cliched politics...

0:53:560:53:58

Let politicians run on,

0:53:580:53:59

but let anybody who has anything original to say shut up. No, Peter.

0:53:590:54:04

I will not shut up, because it's so important.

0:54:040:54:06

The police are supposed - and they were invented in this

0:54:060:54:09

country by Robert Peel - to do one thing.

0:54:090:54:12

To patrol, on foot, the streets to prevent crime and disorder.

0:54:120:54:16

That is something they no longer do.

0:54:160:54:19

If they will start doing that again, we should pay them

0:54:190:54:21

a king's ransom, all the money we've got.

0:54:210:54:23

But at the moment, they won't do it, they've vanished from the streets.

0:54:230:54:26

They only turn up after things have happened and frankly,

0:54:260:54:29

that creates a demand that could never conceivably...

0:54:290:54:31

I have the solution to this problem, it's very simple.

0:54:310:54:34

Like most people in London, or any big city, I don't see a policeman

0:54:340:54:38

from one month to the next,

0:54:380:54:39

but I can't move for traffic wardens.

0:54:390:54:41

They can patrol the streets, don't worry about that.

0:54:410:54:45

That's because imposing parking crimes

0:54:450:54:48

is a massively profitable business.

0:54:480:54:50

The traffic wardens are being gradually replaced by cameras,

0:54:500:54:53

which means greater income, lower outlay.

0:54:530:54:55

Spend the same money on policemen. All right. I'm going to do...

0:54:550:54:58

I'm going to take one last question round the table in the light

0:54:580:55:02

of something that happened this week from Tim Paramore, please.

0:55:020:55:06

Is the government turning our schools into joyless exam factories?

0:55:060:55:09

Briefly - "joyless exam factories".

0:55:090:55:11

This is the news that seven-year-olds are now going to be tested

0:55:110:55:15

to see how they're doing.

0:55:150:55:17

Justine Greening, but briefly, please.

0:55:170:55:19

No... Pace, Peter.

0:55:190:55:21

No, we're not, but what we do want to do is make sure

0:55:210:55:24

we have a good sense of where children have got to

0:55:240:55:27

as they pass through schools,

0:55:270:55:29

so that they're not all dealt with the same

0:55:290:55:31

and actually, across the board,

0:55:310:55:32

we can start to get a better sense of how well children,

0:55:320:55:36

individual children, are progressing through school

0:55:360:55:39

and how well schools are doing at bringing them on

0:55:390:55:41

and helping them to be in a position to reach their own potential.

0:55:410:55:44

Joyless exam factories - Jenny Jones, do you agree?

0:55:440:55:47

Absolutely, yes - childhood should be a time

0:55:470:55:50

when you learn to enjoy learning.

0:55:500:55:52

It should be full of joy and excitement and pleasure

0:55:520:55:55

and actually finding out about the world around you.

0:55:550:55:58

So the idea of constantly testing and assessing

0:55:580:56:00

and putting stress on seven-year-olds...

0:56:000:56:02

Why would we do that to our children?

0:56:020:56:05

All right - Peter Hitchens.

0:56:050:56:06

APPLAUSE

0:56:060:56:08

It is true that this is what they are and it's because,

0:56:100:56:12

rather that doing what needs to be done to the schools -

0:56:120:56:15

that is to say, bringing back

0:56:150:56:16

proper, rigorous education in the basics

0:56:160:56:19

and selection in secondary schools on academic merit -

0:56:190:56:23

they insist on constantly reaching for gimmicks

0:56:230:56:26

and on driving the schools and punishing the schools

0:56:260:56:29

with incessant five-year-plans and exhortation.

0:56:290:56:31

That's the only policy they have

0:56:310:56:33

because they will not, for ideological reasons,

0:56:330:56:35

do the only thing which would make the schools better.

0:56:350:56:37

Victoria Coren - thank you, Peter. Um... Yes, absolutely,

0:56:370:56:40

joyless exam - not just that.

0:56:400:56:42

Joyless exam factories all day and then hours of homework at night.

0:56:420:56:45

They can't even come home and play. It's awful. It's pertinent to me,

0:56:450:56:49

because I've decided as a result of this

0:56:490:56:51

that our daughter will not go to school at all,

0:56:510:56:53

it's too miserable - she'll be home-schooled.

0:56:530:56:55

My husband, unfortunately, thinks that means she'll turn out weird.

0:56:550:56:58

So...the debate continues. Learn to play poker at an early age.

0:56:580:57:01

I think that's the only way.

0:57:010:57:02

The woman in the very front, here, then I'll come to you, Chuka.

0:57:020:57:06

Just briefly. I just wanted to ask

0:57:060:57:07

where you saw the education system in five years' time.

0:57:070:57:10

I think that might take quite a long time to answer.

0:57:100:57:13

If you'll excuse me, we won't do that, but Chuka, very briefly.

0:57:130:57:16

Joyless exam factories? Or are you in favour of testing at seven?

0:57:160:57:19

No, I think there is a problem with turning into joyless exam factories.

0:57:190:57:23

The problems with our schools are not because our kids

0:57:230:57:25

are not doing enough exams and tests.

0:57:250:57:27

We need more teachers.

0:57:270:57:29

We've got loads of kids in overcrowded classrooms,

0:57:290:57:31

at the moment, and that should actually be the focus,

0:57:310:57:33

I think, as opposed to continually...

0:57:330:57:37

There a massive teaching recruitment crisis, exactly, as that lady says.

0:57:370:57:41

Resources... We've got record numbers,

0:57:410:57:43

record numbers of teachers are leaving the profession

0:57:430:57:45

and that's what the Government should be focused on,

0:57:450:57:47

not incessantly testing our young people.

0:57:470:57:50

I wish this debate could go on, but it can't,

0:57:500:57:52

because we only get our hour, though on radio,

0:57:520:57:54

it does go on a bit longer, I'll tell you in a moment.

0:57:540:57:56

But our time's up on Question Time.

0:57:560:57:58

We're going to be in Stoke-on-Trent next week.

0:57:580:58:01

We've got Sajid Javid for the Tories,

0:58:010:58:03

Lucy Powell for Labour,

0:58:030:58:05

the writer and activist Paris Lees

0:58:050:58:07

among those on the panel.

0:58:070:58:08

The week after that, we'll be in Belfast.

0:58:080:58:10

So if you want to come to Stoke or Belfast, go to the website,

0:58:100:58:13

call the number on the screen...

0:58:130:58:15

If you're listening on 5 Live,

0:58:180:58:19

as you know, this debate continues

0:58:190:58:21

on Question Time Extra Time,

0:58:210:58:22

but on here, my thanks

0:58:220:58:23

to all our panellists and to you, our audience.

0:58:230:58:26

From Tottenham in London, until next Thursday, goodnight.

0:58:260:58:30

APPLAUSE

0:58:300:58:32

The knives are sharpened and the heat is on. It can only mean one thing.

0:59:030:59:06

I've never, ever seen that!

0:59:060:59:08

Britain's best chefs are back in town.

0:59:080:59:11

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