12/11/2015 Question Time


12/11/2015

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Stoke-on-Trent. The panellists are Sajid Javid MP, Lucy Powell MP, Paul Nuttall MEP, Paris Lees and Stig Abell.


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Transcript


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Welcome, whether you're watching or listening, to our audience here,

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Conservative Business Secretary, Sajid Javid.

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Labour's Shadow Education Secretary, Lucy Powell.

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Managing Editor of The Sun, Stig Abell.

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And the writer and campaigner for transgender rights Paris Lees.

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If you want to text or tweet, our hashtag is BBCQT,

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Text comments to 83981, and press the Red Button to see what

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Our first question from Matthew Smith, please. Has David Cameron

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said his side 's way too low in his renegotiation of's membership of the

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European Union. -- set his sights way too low. He has set his sights

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too low, and he has missed, which is the tragic thing for him. The

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difficulty he has for Europe, he is leading a bunch of Eurosceptics. The

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difficulty for the Labour Party as they are led by a Eurosceptic. The

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European situation is too big for British politics. We don't know how

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to deal with it. The Tories and Labour are riven by it. Ukip have a

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coherent policy but cannot get elected for love nor money. British

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politics as it currently stands cannot deal with the European

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question. The problem for David Cameron is that what he has set out

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to try and achieve will not actually help the central problem on people's

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mines, which is how we control immigration in this country. Nobody

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is saying immigration is wrong. We are a nation of immigrants, but

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people in this country have an entitlement when they look at their

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elected representatives to say, you tell me what you believe in terms of

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immigration and I will hold you to account on what you then deliver.

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And that is absolutely impossible in the current political system. You

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think immigration is at the heart of the debate in the referendum?

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Nothing else? It is about sovereignty, our place in the world,

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but it will boil down to immigration. Not whether immigration

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is good or bad but whether we expect our politicians to offer an argument

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about whether to control it and to what extent.

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APPLAUSE Sajid Javid. The racial chip we have

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with the EU today is not won the British people voted for 40 years

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ago. -- the relationship. That is why we need fundamental reform. The

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EU is on the wrong track. What David Cameron set out this week in more

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detail are just the kind of changes that we want to see. For example, as

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Business Secretary, I want business to do even better in Britain, to

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create more jobs and growth. But we are held back with the EU as it is.

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It is holding us back. It is not competitive enough. There is too

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much red tape. Did he set his sights too low? No, we have an ambitious

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package with four major parts to it. If we achieve that we can

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fundamentally change the relationship. The only way we will

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get traction and change is because we have called the referendum.

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Without a referendum we would not be sitting round the negotiating table

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with European partners even having this discussion. It is going to be a

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bumpy road. I am not saying it will be easy to get this negotiation

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done, but we are on the right track and we can get it done. You, in the

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front. What Cameron has asked for is a complete let down, especially on

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immigration. When we came here tonight we shut our front door to

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stop anyone coming into our house. As a nation, we have left the front

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door open to 450 million residents from the EU. Any of those can come

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here at any time. Last year, over 600,000 people, and that is just the

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official number, came into the UK. We cannot go on like this and the

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only way to stop it, the only way to stop it is to ensure we have control

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of our borders. The EU will not let us control our borders so the only

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way we can do it is to vote to come out of the EU.

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APPLAUSE Lucy Powell. I'm afraid I don't

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agree with that last sentiment. I will be campaigning for an voting

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for Britain to stay in the European Union because I think our membership

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of the European Union makes us a more powerful, prosperous and secure

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country. I share the frustration is that people have. We do need to

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engage in reforming Europe, but reforming Europe should be an

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ongoing process, not a one-off event. It should be something we are

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demanding and getting and negotiating on and negotiating on an

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ongoing basis. But the negotiations David Cameron has set out this week

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say more about the negotiations he is having with his backbenchers than

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about any real negotiations with Europe. What would you have had that

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isn't there? Where he is at fault is that he is playing a high risk game

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of roulette with the future of the country. He is unable to show the

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leadership we need entering into this campaign about whether we stay

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in Europe or not. He is not able to say which side of the fence he will

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come down on in the referendum. Sajid Javid is here this evening,

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the Business Secretary, supposedly championing British business

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interests in the country. The vast majority of British businesses want

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to remain in the EU. He is not able to say whether he will be

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campaigning for us to stay in or not. This is the British government

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only a few months away from one of our biggest decisions as a country,

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and they are unable to tell you what they think about it.

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APPLAUSE Sajid Javid, perhaps you can pick up

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on that point. Do you know which way you will go? You once said you would

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not shed a tear if we left the EU. Is that still your view? I think we

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need fundamental change. If we don't get change, I think the costs of

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staying in outweigh the benefits. That is why we need reform. So you

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could see yourself breaking away from the Cabinet and David Cameron?

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I can see myself campaigning for reform, which is what I am doing

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now. Can you see circumstances where you would break away? I will

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campaign for reform and the decision will be made at the referendum. My

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decision depends on the final package. As the Prime Minister has

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said himself, nothing is off the table. Lucy says that she wants some

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reform but we are only having a discussion about reform because we

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are having a referendum. Your party did not want a referendum. That is

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what you said before the election, and now you seem to want one. We are

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having a referendum. You were against it. The negotiating position

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on limiting in work benefits was a policy that the Labour Party adopted

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ahead of the last election. What is the point of these policies without

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a referendum? We were going around Europe as an opposition party, not

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the government, and asking other countries in the EU commission if

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they would negotiate on such a policy as David Cameron set out.

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They were happy to have those conversations. They said, only a

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year ago, at that point they had heard nothing from the British

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government asking those questions. In opposition, the Labour Party was

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having nose, stations before David Cameron was. Just like his manifesto

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on benefits, David Cameron's statement on the European Union is

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way too vague. I think he is going to use this referendum to destroy

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workers rights and give us an option in without the social Charter, or

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out, and therefore destroyed workers' rights, which is his and

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Sajid Javid's gold. I don't think David Cameron has set

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his targets too low. Let's take, for example, immigration. Immigration is

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far too high, yes, we know that. But the immigrants, the migrants that

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come into the UK, they play their part in society. They do the jobs

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that the British people, that a minority of British people do not

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want to do. By these reforms we are not bowing down to the European

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Union. We are showing that we are Great Britain. We are showing we are

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a democratic society. Immigration is too high. But the immigrants that

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come into the country, they do work. I have looked at Mr Cameron's four

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points. The first one talking about non-Eurozone countries having equal

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access to the single market. Second, strengthening national parliaments.

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The third, cutting red tape. We have heard it before. Tony Blair was

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talking about cutting red tape ten years ago. The fourth point, denying

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benefits to EU migrants for four years, it ain't going to happen.

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Donald Tusk has said will very difficult. Jean-Claude Juncker,

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resident of the EU commission, thinks it breaks EU law. The

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president of the European Parliament and announced it within an hour of

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Cameron saying it. The real point is what he has not asked for. There is

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nothing about reduction of contributions, which are running at

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?55 million each day. Nothing on the Common Agricultural Policy, pushing

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the price... You said he is not going to get these points, so

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presumably you will urge people to vote against. Hang on. What is the

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answer to the question? He will try to perform the same trick as Harold

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Wilson in 1975. They will get cosmetic changes, come to the

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British people and say, isn't it a great victory? There is not gain to

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be any harmonisation, no pooling of sovereignty. What happens after

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that? We had a single European act which created the single market, we

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have a flag, an anthem, the majority of laws made in Brussels. Stop

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making a speech, Paul. I know you are used to making speeches. The

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bottom line is this. The corn is on. Don't be fooled again like in 1975.

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Let's rewrite that wrong. Well done, Paul. Will David Cameron learn a

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trick from the SNP and have a second referendum if the first one fails?

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Sajid Javid. There will only be one referendum. We need certainty,

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business needs certainty and there will be one referendum. Paris Lees.

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I feel sad hearing there is so much anti-European Union feeling in the

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room, actually. I get it. I get that it is frustrating, the red tape and

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everything. And of course there is deadwood that can be cut out with

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bureaucrats and God knows who gives them authority or where they get

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their budgets from. So, yes, we need to see some change. But I think

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there is a more important point, which is that we are taking for

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granted what we have got. Have we forgotten what Europe, as it stands

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now, replaced. It replaced 300 years of us being at war with one another.

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APPLAUSE We almost have the last one ended.

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We live in an increasingly globalised world. It may sound

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idealistic, but we all have to work together and pull together.

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Ultimately, we do need a friend, it is up to the people to decide. I

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really hope we decide to stay part of it because I believe in us coming

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together and realising we are Europeans and can work for our

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common benefit, in the same way that I want Britain to stay together and

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I do not want Scotland to leave. I want us to be together, not

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separate. APPLAUSE

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Paris is right from an idealistic point of view, but Europe has not

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solved the problem with Ukraine and Putin's warmongering, has not solved

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the refugee crisis. At the time when you expect an organisation like the

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EU to say, here are solutions, it has not managed to deliver them.

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Russia is being very aggressive to Ukraine. That would not now happen

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between Britain and France. That is how it was for hundreds of years. I

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don't think that the EU stops wars. We will have lots more on this as

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the referendum gets closer. Do you have any idea when it is going to

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be? Before the end of 2017. I want to go back to the question. Where do

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you stand on this? It was more of a question about the lack of democracy

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within the European Union. You think that was the flaw in what Cameron is

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suggesting he renegotiate? There is that and the contribution levels,

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?12 billion per year, another ?2 billion balance of payments. Back in

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1975 when we had a referendum, all of the members had a veto on any

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legislation. That has changed in the years since. That would be a key

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thing as well for me, it would be a good thing.

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Let us go on. We have many questions. Simon Langford has a

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question. Before we do that, I should tell you, Belfast, if you are

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in Northern Ireland, Belfast next week, Question Time is going to be

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there and the week after that, it's in your territory, Manchester. Very

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good. Sorry you came here tonight, you can come back to Manchester!

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Back to Manchester. Simon Langford's question, please? Was Jeremy

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Corbyn's bow at the Remembrance Day parade on Sunday really that

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insufficient and disrespectful or are certain factions of the media

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using any excuse to bully him? -- APPLAUSE

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I guess it's the any excuse to bully him part of the question. Paris

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Lees, what do you think? Oh, poor old Jeremy Corbyn! He seems like a

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nice guy and Stig I don't think you believe in all the stick you have

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been giving him. I don't know, I just think Margaret Thatcher Tony

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Blair, we have had some right nutters running the country over the

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past 30 years. Jeremy Corbyn stands for peace, people and a fair, more

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equal society. Do I believe everything that he stands for - no.

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Do I think he's got all the answers - no. But there is no doubt now that

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he represents a different way of doing things and I think that's

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clear from the fact that there are clearly certain people in

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institutions with vested interests in maintaining the status quo who

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really don't like Jeremy Corbyn. The Labour Party. So whatever you think

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about him. Quite. I think he should be more pragmatic. I'm probably more

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New Labour than Jeremy Corbyn if I got invited to a bruvy council I

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would probably go. The Queen would have nice tea and cakes and things

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so I would go and have a laugh. But I think we've got a question now,

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haven't we, you know, we can either keep voting in the same people and

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getting the same sort of people and outcomes, or we could try something

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different. I don't know, I just think that Jeremy Corbyn seems like

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a nice man, the kind of teacher everybody takes the Mick out of when

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they start school and then by the end of it everybody loves him so I

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don't know, I think he's had a rough deal.

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APPLAUSE Lucy Powell, is he being bullied, by

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the Labour Party? I think the first thing to remember is what

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Remembrance Sunday is all about, it's a time we pay our respects to

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those who gave their lives for their country for our country and who

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fought for freedoms around the world and lost their life in so doing and

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we should never forget what Remembrance Sunday is about. I think

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for a national newspaper to politicise such an event in the way

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they did with their front-page on Monday was frankly despicable and I

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think the people who disrespected the veterans on Remembrance Sunday

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was the Sun newspaper and the Sun journalists when they decided to put

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together that front-page on Sunday afternoon.

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APPLAUSE Stig, your newspaper's quote was

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requests pass cyst Corbyn refuses to bow, nod in my name".

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Two Labour MPs talked about their view of Jeremy Corbyn. Graham Jones

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saying they were not giving sufficient respect so it was a

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story, people were talking about it. -- pacifist. You may well take the

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view that what he was doing was fine and other people may take the

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opposite view. The problem Jeremy Corbyn has is, the reason people are

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scrutinising him is that he is in a difficult position when he seeks to

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become part of the establishment. He doesn't believe in the monarchy, the

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Army, or a deterrent in terms of Trident. He believes the death of

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Osama Bin Laden was a tragedy. He's got perfect rites to have those

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believes. That's not actually what he says,sth, that's not at all what

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he said. It's because of the stances he's said. You may well take the

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view what he said was perfectly fine and the way he conducted himself was

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perfectly fine. Labour MPs on that day didn't take

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that view. He's in an extraordinary position.

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APPLAUSE You, Sir? I would like to say that

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it's not a case of bullying, it's a case of respect. I noticed it on TV,

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compared to everyone else that was doing a decent bow and even I sort

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of nod and bow when I see a hearse go by on a daily basis and it's not

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bullying at all. What about you on the gangway? Hi,

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sorry. It's all right. You make the point about not sufficiently

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respectful. Respect is a personal thing. Respect isn't something that

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you should have to bow down to some sort of Al mighty respectometer.

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Respect should be a total personal feeling. Jeremy Corbyn thinks he

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respected sufficiently, that's fine by me.

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OK. APPLAUSE

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The woman at the very back row. Yes? I wonder why it wasn't covered that

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he stayed behind to the end of the procession, didn't go in for a meal

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with the other dignitaries to talk to the veterans. He sent a

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hand-written brief which was very personal then went on to his own

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constituency to attend another memorial service. Do you think he's

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being bullied is the point? I think he's being vilified, bullied and the

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Murdoch press is trying to indoctrine ate the rest of the

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country into electing another Conservative.

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APPLAUSE I'll come to you first in red, here?

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I would like to put it to Stig who works for the Sun, how respectful

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are you to people many general? I mean, for instance, that photograph

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of him at the cenotaph bowing his head, right next to it is the

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picture of a scantily dressed woman. How respectful is that? !

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It might have gone so far in the other direction now that these

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people who're attacking him might be doing Corbyn a favour. He's an

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underdog and there is no doubt he's been powered upon, so it will be

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interesting to see the effects of this.

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Paul Nuttall? I missed the bow. I was at the cenotaph in Liverpool, at

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the remembrance service, and I've also missed it because, as you can

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guess from my accent, I'm from Liverpool and you very rarely see

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the Sun! For obvious reasons... APPLAUSE

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Look, this is just a total none-story, let's be frank about all

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of this. Whether he bows or not is unimportant. As far as I'm

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concerned, you know, I think there's far more worrying things about

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Jeremy Corbyn and that's his views on the IRA, his views on Hezbollah

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and ham mass, wanting to give the Falklands back to Argentina -- ham

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mass. Hamas. And to have the General come out on

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the Marr show on Sunday and say he'd be worried if Jeremy Corbyn becomes

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Prime Minister, do you know what, so would I, he'd leave us without a

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nuclear deterrent and not allow us to sit at the top table in the

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world. APPLAUS

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Lucy, can we pick up that point. There was a curious moment, because

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Nicholas Houghton said he was worried and Jeremy Corbyn said this

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was quite improper for a General to say this, and then Labour's own

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Shadow Defence Secretary said, I think he was absolutely fine to say

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that and she believes it, you know, it's a curious party which is so

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divided on such a serious issue? That's not the sequence of events.

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Maria responded first and she was on the same TV programme he was. But

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look, I think that, I don't happen to share the same view as Jeremy

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Corbyn about the maintenance of our nuclear deterrent, I think it's

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important that we continue to have that. But I absolutely defend his

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right to open up a debate about it. He is a politician, it's not for the

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Chief of the Defence stamp and the Head of The Army to go on national

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television and talk about Jeremy Corbyn's suitability as Prime

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Minister or policy discussions about nuclear deterrent... Test the best

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qualified. We live in... We live in an elected democracy where the

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people decide through their elected politicians what our policies are

:24:47.:24:50.

about whether we go to war, about what capabilities we have and need

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and what our policies are. It's for the Chief of Defence Staff to carry

:24:55.:25:01.

out the policies. Is it for you a deal breaker if Jeremy Corbyn would

:25:02.:25:05.

activate or say whether he'd be prepared to say it's not a deterrent

:25:06.:25:11.

or not, are you indifferent? It's an incredibly important issue. Which

:25:12.:25:14.

side are you on, are you in favour of having the deterrent? Yesp How

:25:15.:25:19.

can you be in a party of someone who is not in favour? The vast majority

:25:20.:25:27.

of... Perfectly obvious point, but how do you go into an election with

:25:28.:25:31.

a leader that says he's not if favour of nuclear deterrents with

:25:32.:25:36.

the party members who say they want them? There is an important debate

:25:37.:25:40.

to have. You were elected on the mandate. When you were elected not

:25:41.:25:44.

that long ago you said, as a party, we believe in the Trident deterrent,

:25:45.:25:48.

now you are a party whose leader says it's not. Imp elected on one

:25:49.:25:53.

set of beliefs and you are moving away from it or your leader is, and

:25:54.:25:57.

that's an extraordinary position to be in. The Labour Party, what can

:25:58.:26:04.

you do, people support him and his policies and we can't ignore it, you

:26:05.:26:09.

have to respect the fact he's popular and principled whether you

:26:10.:26:14.

agree with him or not. So Sajid Javid, popular and principled? On

:26:15.:26:20.

the point about the General, he shouldn't be involved in politics

:26:21.:26:25.

but this General wasn't. He was pointing out our deterrent works

:26:26.:26:29.

every second every hour of every day by deterring and if you have

:26:30.:26:34.

someone... APPLAUSE

:26:35.:26:36.

If you have someone who wants to be Prime Minister, remember Jeremy

:26:37.:26:38.

Corbyn is the alternative Prime Minister, that's what he is, so he

:26:39.:26:43.

should be scrutinised. If you have someone who says I would never press

:26:44.:26:47.

the button under any circumstances, it's not a deterrent any more. Hang

:26:48.:26:52.

on, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, the Chief of Defence

:26:53.:26:56.

Staff by saying what he'd said, it would worry me if that thought was

:26:57.:27:02.

translated into power, ie I wouldn't use the deterrent, is interfering in

:27:03.:27:06.

politics. It's not because he's asked a question about if there is

:27:07.:27:10.

someone that says I'll never press the button, what happens and his

:27:11.:27:14.

answer is, that it means it's no longer a deterrent. From that point

:27:15.:27:18.

on, it's no longer a deterrent. It won't deter anyone. Hang on, hang

:27:19.:27:23.

on, hang on. You are not saying there can't be a Government that

:27:24.:27:31.

wins an election on a unilateral disarmament? Of course if that's

:27:32.:27:35.

what the British people vote for. He's not saying that. The point is,

:27:36.:27:40.

it wasn't a hypothetical debate he was having. This is the live issue

:27:41.:27:47.

because Jeremy Corbyn's set out a position and so he was Wading into

:27:48.:27:50.

that debate and that political debate. There was no question of

:27:51.:27:54.

that, it was a clumsy intervention into politics which is not what he

:27:55.:27:59.

should be doing, he's the Chief of the Defence Staff. We are not an

:28:00.:28:05.

Army-run country. One of our most decorated Generals answering a FC

:28:06.:28:09.

chill question. He was Wading into it. The first duty of the Government

:28:10.:28:13.

is to protect the people. Therefore I would be concerned if they didn't.

:28:14.:28:16.

Can you remember the original question, is he being bullies is the

:28:17.:28:21.

point? There are a lot of things, as you have just seen, that I don't

:28:22.:28:25.

like about Jeremy Corbyn's views but the bow I think was absolutely fine.

:28:26.:28:29.

I saw the bow, I didn't think there was any problem with it. This week,

:28:30.:28:33.

we have heard people saying is he going to kneel in front of the

:28:34.:28:38.

Queen, is that disrespectful, I went in front of the Queen a few years

:28:39.:28:43.

ago, I never thought in my life as a child I would ever get to meet the

:28:44.:28:50.

Queen never mind join the Privy Council, I almost fainted by seeing

:28:51.:28:54.

her. If someone wants to show that respect in a different way it

:28:55.:28:58.

doesn't matter as long as they are respectful. A lot of things I don't

:28:59.:29:04.

like about him but he's respectful. The woman at the very back? I don't

:29:05.:29:10.

think I say this very often but I whole heartedly agree with Richard

:29:11.:29:15.

Dawkins in what he said about the Sun headline being scandalous and

:29:16.:29:20.

shameful. I found it disingenuous to hear Stig trying to defend the

:29:21.:29:29.

position around the Sun. You in yellow with the hat on? If you are

:29:30.:29:38.

going back to disrespect, during the actual proceedings, David Cameron

:29:39.:29:42.

had a poppy photo-shopped on to him earlier in the day and Boris Johnson

:29:43.:29:47.

was caught talking during the minutes' silence. Both those things

:29:48.:29:52.

were widely reported. It wasn't widely reported in the same way that

:29:53.:29:56.

you widely reported Jeremy Corbyn, what a nasty person he is. It's a

:29:57.:30:01.

horrible way to treat a person and it's not just the Sun, it's a great

:30:02.:30:04.

many of the national newspapers having a go at him. While I'm

:30:05.:30:10.

speaking, shut up, right. APPLAUSE

:30:11.:30:16.

I don't think you can tell a panel member to shut up, but finish your

:30:17.:30:24.

point. It is not just the Sun, it is the whole Murdoch empire that has

:30:25.:30:29.

taken against Jeremy Corbyn. It is unfair and it is bullying. If it

:30:30.:30:33.

happened in the street, you would be arrested. Again, you say the

:30:34.:30:39.

criticism comes from the Sun, but it came from people in his own party,

:30:40.:30:43.

from people watching the TV. We reported what people said. On

:30:44.:30:49.

Wednesday we had David Cameron mocked up as a jelly on the front

:30:50.:30:53.

page. One of the things the Sun does is try to capture where the debate

:30:54.:30:59.

is. When it came to Cameron, it is not a plot about Corbyn. We think

:31:00.:31:03.

Cameron's position on the EU is ridiculous. On tax credits, we think

:31:04.:31:08.

the Tory party have shamed themselves as a party in their

:31:09.:31:13.

stance. While we do report on things in a colourful way, we picked up on

:31:14.:31:17.

what people were saying, people in his party and people watching on

:31:18.:31:19.

television. APPLAUSE

:31:20.:31:28.

Carol Hawkins, please. With council budgets cutting social care and

:31:29.:31:32.

A's struggling, will the NHS fail this winter? We heard it is not

:31:33.:31:40.

achieving its targets. Sajid Javid. No, it won't. It is going to be

:31:41.:31:44.

difficult. It has been from any winters now. It will certainly be

:31:45.:31:51.

challenging. The NHS is one of the most difficult organisations to run,

:31:52.:31:54.

no matter who is in power. But the one way to make sure it can deal

:31:55.:31:58.

with these challenges, not just winter, but the growing challenge of

:31:59.:32:03.

an ageing population, more and more medicine and treatments that we want

:32:04.:32:06.

the NHS to provide and we all want it to stay what it is, a world-class

:32:07.:32:11.

service, free at the point of use. We will only do that if we keep

:32:12.:32:16.

making sure it has enough resources, first of all, and we can only do

:32:17.:32:20.

that if the economy is strong. That is why we are able to commit it will

:32:21.:32:29.

get ?8 billion extra every year. Why does it have a deficit of 1 billion

:32:30.:32:36.

this year? Does not. NHS Trusts have an overall deficit of 1 billion.

:32:37.:32:41.

Some might have deficits, somewhat have surpluses. It would -- or is

:32:42.:32:47.

will be challenging. There is not a financial problem as long as we keep

:32:48.:32:51.

the economy strong. This feedback into, if you keep the economy strong

:32:52.:32:57.

and prioritise the NHS, you have to make difficult decisions elsewhere.

:32:58.:33:00.

That is what we have done and that is what will keep the NHS strong.

:33:01.:33:07.

What are you talking about? The NHS was created when Britain had no

:33:08.:33:10.

money. We had just been at war and everybody decided to pull together.

:33:11.:33:15.

It is absolute nonsense. There is -- there was a report last year which

:33:16.:33:22.

rated Britain's health care top out of 11 western countries. At the

:33:23.:33:25.

bottom came the US. There are countries like Canada and

:33:26.:33:28.

Switzerland in there and we came out the best. There is money, we just

:33:29.:33:33.

need to put it in and make sure it is run properly. The NHS is the best

:33:34.:33:37.

thing we have in this country. To say we don't have the money and we

:33:38.:33:41.

have to focus on the economy, we need to focus on the NHS. The money

:33:42.:33:48.

is there if we want it. I said we prioritise the NHS. How? We only

:33:49.:33:54.

have the money if we keep the economy strong. That is why we are

:33:55.:33:58.

the only party at the election that signed up to the Simon Stevens plan

:33:59.:34:00.

to find efficiencies and keep putting money in. What do you mean

:34:01.:34:07.

by finding efficiency? Further adding privatisation. You are

:34:08.:34:13.

running it down. Standards are going down. Simon Stevens says the quid

:34:14.:34:18.

pro quo of the 8 billion put in was that you find ?22 billion of

:34:19.:34:23.

savings. Are you finding those with A levels missing their target,

:34:24.:34:29.

5000 patients in beds who should be discharged, ambulances missing their

:34:30.:34:33.

targets? It doesn't sound as though it is working. I am the first to

:34:34.:34:38.

accept the NHS has challenges. Of course it does. When you are trying

:34:39.:34:43.

to have an organisation with over 2 million employees that is trying to

:34:44.:34:46.

offer a service free at the point of use, it will. We have a growing

:34:47.:34:50.

population, greater need all the time. There is no government that

:34:51.:34:55.

has not had issues with the NHS, but one thing I do know is required is

:34:56.:34:59.

that it needs more money each year and you will only have that if you

:35:00.:35:02.

have a strong economy. APPLAUSE Schlein I thought I wasn't

:35:03.:35:10.

going to talk tonight but when you mentioned the NHS, it upsets me. I

:35:11.:35:16.

work in the NHS and it is cut upon cut upon cut. I never see any money

:35:17.:35:21.

coming in. Everyday I go to work it is about cutting something having

:35:22.:35:25.

higher targets. It is unbelievable, the amount of stress in the NHS.

:35:26.:35:29.

Most people I work with cannot wait to leave. The woman in yellow. Reed

:35:30.:35:41.

you confidently said the NHS is not going to have a crisis this winter,

:35:42.:35:45.

so what do you think about Jeremy Hunt having lost touch with 45,000

:35:46.:35:51.

junior doctors? APPLAUSE

:35:52.:36:03.

The NHS is in a terrible crisis. It is the 2nd year on the run and it is

:36:04.:36:07.

over budget by ?1 billion in the first quarter. Ambulance targets are

:36:08.:36:12.

being missed, A units are missing targets. 111 is just a joke. There

:36:13.:36:19.

is a problem with the NHS and it is a long-term problem, a structural

:36:20.:36:23.

problem. It is too big, there are too many managers.

:36:24.:36:29.

APPLAUSE Hold on. Under Labour, between 97,

:36:30.:36:38.

and 2010, the NHS budget troubles. But the number of managers grew

:36:39.:36:43.

within the NHS by 58%. -- the NHS budget troubles. There are 50,000

:36:44.:36:58.

not qualified to in the NHS. -- there are 50,000 people who work for

:36:59.:37:03.

the NHS who are on over ?100,000 a year. Is it the porters, the nurses,

:37:04.:37:07.

the ambulance to arrive is it the porters, the nurses, the ambulance

:37:08.:37:10.

to rivals? Of course not. And the PFI deals are saddling the NHS with

:37:11.:37:15.

a debt of ?2 billion every year. APPLAUSE

:37:16.:37:24.

I am a social worker in a Children's Hospital local and every day I work

:37:25.:37:31.

alongside health, care, education. My son is a police Sergeant and my

:37:32.:37:37.

daughter-in-law is a teacher. This government are decimating our public

:37:38.:37:39.

services. APPLAUSE

:37:40.:37:45.

It is about time you realised what your government is doing. Do you

:37:46.:37:49.

know that in Staffordshire there is a two-year wait for a paediatric

:37:50.:37:57.

assessment? Children waiting two years under your government. It is

:37:58.:38:05.

shameful. You have made comments in the past that you would like more of

:38:06.:38:10.

the NHS privatised. Actually, I don't think most people in this

:38:11.:38:13.

audience and this country do want to see the NHS privatised. I am going

:38:14.:38:19.

to finish. The reason we are top of that league table in terms of health

:38:20.:38:23.

care and the US is at the bottom and we are not in a breaking bad

:38:24.:38:28.

situation is because we have nationalised health care. So you --

:38:29.:38:32.

would you like to make clear your position on privatising the NHS?

:38:33.:38:38.

What I was talking about specifically is procurement. In some

:38:39.:38:41.

cases you have the NHS paying over 30 times the cost for drugs. How is

:38:42.:38:48.

privatisation going to help that? I thought it might be a good idea to

:38:49.:38:52.

bring in a private company to get bang for our buck in this area. The

:38:53.:38:57.

bigger problem is that we are allowing over 300,000 people into

:38:58.:39:02.

this country every year. You cannot plan for an NHS when there are too

:39:03.:39:06.

many people in the country. Shame on you. We would not have an NHS

:39:07.:39:09.

without doctors coming from different countries. We should be

:39:10.:39:17.

training up our own. Shame on you, Paul.

:39:18.:39:23.

I would like to agree with the audience and not Paul Nuttall. The

:39:24.:39:28.

first thing to say is my husband is an Accident Emergency doctor, so I

:39:29.:39:31.

live and breathe what is happening in the NHS. He will tell you, as he

:39:32.:39:37.

tells me, that the NHS is absolutely on the brink of crisis. Sajid Javid,

:39:38.:39:42.

you are being very brave to suggest we are not going to have a crisis

:39:43.:39:47.

this winter. The reason we did not have that kind of traditional crisis

:39:48.:39:50.

in the last couple of winters is because we had very mild weather. My

:39:51.:39:54.

husband will tell you that it is when things get cold that things get

:39:55.:39:59.

really difficult. Why do we have such a crisis in the NHS? It is not

:40:00.:40:05.

straightforward. First of all, the resources are not there. Sajid Javid

:40:06.:40:09.

said the government have pledged 8 billion, but they have not seen a

:40:10.:40:12.

penny of that yet and we are some way off getting that money. The

:40:13.:40:18.

really big challenge for accident, emergency and hospital care at the

:40:19.:40:21.

moment is the huge numbers of elderly patients coming in who

:40:22.:40:24.

should be being looked after at home and in the community. But we have

:40:25.:40:29.

seen an absolute decimation of social care in this country.

:40:30.:40:35.

APPLAUSE As David Cameron himself is now

:40:36.:40:39.

admitting, the cuts to local government are having a devastating

:40:40.:40:43.

effect. The problem just goes elsewhere, and it is moving to

:40:44.:40:48.

front-line National Health Service. We have also seen top-down

:40:49.:40:51.

reorganisation of the NHS which we did not need to see, which has now

:40:52.:40:54.

put competition at the heart of the NHS. For example, the tender in

:40:55.:41:01.

Greater Manchester for the Ambulance Service, the patient transport

:41:02.:41:03.

service, had to go out to competition. It was awarded by some

:41:04.:41:09.

narrow measure to a bus company. That company has now had to pull out

:41:10.:41:12.

of the operation because they fiddled the numbers and got bonuses

:41:13.:41:17.

they should not have got. We had a terrible bus company running the

:41:18.:41:21.

ambience was there. Going to the broader point, when we were going

:41:22.:41:25.

through the election campaign, my memory is that Labour was proposing

:41:26.:41:29.

less extra money for the NHS than the Conservatives.

:41:30.:41:34.

APPLAUSE No. We were proposing a cash

:41:35.:41:42.

injection of 2.5 billion this year. What about each year? And we

:41:43.:41:48.

proposed resources to social care. You have proposed, and we have yet

:41:49.:41:53.

to see the money, and Simon Stevens, head of the National Health Service,

:41:54.:41:56.

called you up on this. You proposed 8 billion by the end of this

:41:57.:42:00.

Parliament, in five years, and you have yet to say where that will come

:42:01.:42:04.

from. That does not help the deaf is it the NHS faces now and does not

:42:05.:42:09.

help the crisis the NHS is facing. It is made up money. Why did Labour

:42:10.:42:18.

cut NHS spending in Wales? APPLAUSE

:42:19.:42:26.

You know as well as I do that the budget agreement in Wales is all

:42:27.:42:32.

about devolved budgets and there are different issues. I am incredibly

:42:33.:42:36.

proud of what the Labour Party did in 13 years of government, which was

:42:37.:42:42.

bring the NHS back from its knees and created a world-class service.

:42:43.:42:49.

You ask anyone who works in it. And what the Conservative government are

:42:50.:42:54.

doing now, with junior doctors, just speaks absolute volumes. They have

:42:55.:42:59.

no respect for the people on the front line. There are voices raised

:43:00.:43:10.

against that. Everywhere is in debt from the last government through PFI

:43:11.:43:20.

deals. Ridiculous. Two people in the very back. The woman first. I am a

:43:21.:43:26.

local GP and the reason I am jumping up and down is that I do not know

:43:27.:43:29.

how Sajid Javid can talk about resource into the NHS. General

:43:30.:43:35.

Practice Committee which delivers 90% of NHS care, now does so on 8%

:43:36.:43:41.

of the budget, which is a 20% disinvestment over the last five

:43:42.:43:46.

years. As a result, we are now absolutely on our knees. In our

:43:47.:43:50.

local paper today is a local practice that looks after 12,000

:43:51.:43:54.

people, about to close because they have been trying to recruit to

:43:55.:43:58.

replace their GPs that are retiring, and they can't do that. They have

:43:59.:44:03.

been advertising for in excess of a year. Practices are poaching doctors

:44:04.:44:10.

from one another to just survive. Do you have more confidence in Paul

:44:11.:44:13.

Nuttall's version of how things should be done, or Lucy Powell? Or

:44:14.:44:17.

do you have no confidence in anybody? Nobody ever holds the

:44:18.:44:23.

providers to account. Private companies come in with the lowest

:44:24.:44:28.

bid. When you pay peanuts, unfortunately, you get monkeys.

:44:29.:44:35.

APPLAUSE There are hundreds of people across

:44:36.:44:40.

this country facing their future without a GP. The problem has been

:44:41.:44:45.

animated by this conversation. The NHS, which was an idea of the Labour

:44:46.:44:50.

Party, is too big an issue to be given to politicians to squabble

:44:51.:44:51.

over. APPLAUSE

:44:52.:45:00.

The NHS has a 30 year problem, as we get older, live longer, have more

:45:01.:45:04.

illnesses that require treatment. It cannot be solved in an electoral

:45:05.:45:08.

cycle, by Health Secretary 's who are there for one or two years with

:45:09.:45:13.

an eye on the next job, it cannot be solved by people squabbling over who

:45:14.:45:15.

they think could give more than another. It needs somebody to say

:45:16.:45:21.

this is an existential crisis for something we feel strongly about in

:45:22.:45:24.

this country. It needs to be a cross party effort to say, we need 30 or

:45:25.:45:30.

40 billion, let's find the right figure and get an agreement to spend

:45:31.:45:34.

it and find ways to stop wasting it. APPLAUSE

:45:35.:45:42.

Can you seriously imagine parties agreeing on the huge amount... No, I

:45:43.:45:50.

can't. It means taxation levels and spending levels? I can't imagine it

:45:51.:45:54.

but there is a moment in which we have to look at, is it worth people

:45:55.:45:58.

arguing about who said they would give more to the NHS or not. Or is

:45:59.:46:02.

the argument for the next 30 years when pop laces are going to live

:46:03.:46:09.

until 100, 120, one in three diagnosese of diabetes, this is an

:46:10.:46:14.

extestential crisis and politicians may not agree, but not to treat it

:46:15.:46:17.

as a football to kick around would be a very good beginning.

:46:18.:46:23.

APPLAUSE You? Briefly if you would. Can I back up

:46:24.:46:28.

the point that the GP made. There is a real crisis, I've a daughter who's

:46:29.:46:32.

a junior doctor, a son who will be a doctor, they are not going to be

:46:33.:46:37.

saying in this country to work under those circumstances. On the 8th

:46:38.:46:41.

December there'll be a strike unlest Jeremy Hunt...

:46:42.:46:44.

APPLAUSE And you on the right there? I'm

:46:45.:46:50.

really worried about this mantra, keep the economy strong - that the

:46:51.:46:54.

Government uses because we hear it continually, we have heard it about

:46:55.:46:57.

Tax Credit cuts and the Health Service, we hear it about education

:46:58.:47:01.

and I feel it's a way of the Government distancing itself from

:47:02.:47:05.

the consequences of the cuts that it's making and its policies. We

:47:06.:47:10.

have heard recently David Cameron himself wasn't fully aware or

:47:11.:47:14.

appreciative of the problems within his own locality, his own council

:47:15.:47:18.

and what they were struggling with. And somehow you have got to

:47:19.:47:24.

understand what your policies are causing people to suffer in their

:47:25.:47:30.

lives today. APPLAUSE

:47:31.:47:38.

I understand what the lady is saying and politicians don't say we'll keep

:47:39.:47:44.

the economy strong because they are obsessed by the economy and that is

:47:45.:47:47.

it. If we don't have a strong economy, we don't have jobs for our

:47:48.:47:51.

young people, we don't have jobs for anyone, we don't have growth, we

:47:52.:47:54.

don't have opportunities, we won't be able to raise the taxes that are

:47:55.:47:58.

required to pay for the schools to pay for the nice, to pay for the

:47:59.:48:02.

defence of our country, to pay for welfare for vulnerable people. That

:48:03.:48:05.

all requires money. And that means a strong economy. That means you've

:48:06.:48:10.

got to be competitive. You've got to have low taxes, low regular laying,

:48:11.:48:13.

you have got to trade with the rest of the world, there's no way out of

:48:14.:48:17.

that. Countries who've tried it have ended up like Greece and what's

:48:18.:48:22.

happened with Greece's NHS? APPLAUSE It trickles down. The man

:48:23.:48:28.

with the yellow handkerchief in his pocket? Does anyone know the cost of

:48:29.:48:38.

building hospitals. PFI. ?445 million under PFI we have been

:48:39.:48:43.

charged ?2.7 billion. All the PFI contracts aparts from one were put

:48:44.:48:48.

in during the Labour administration, a total of ?11. 8 million, the cost

:48:49.:48:52.

of buildings, ?79 billion to be paid back. The contracts should be

:48:53.:48:57.

renegotiated. There must be some obscure EU regular laces because we

:48:58.:49:02.

are enabled to do it. And they were all Labour... The

:49:03.:49:07.

woman waving her hand in the second from back row? You say that you are

:49:08.:49:12.

going to start putting ?8 billion into the NHS every year which hasn't

:49:13.:49:17.

happened yet, but one of the big problems in the mace is lack of

:49:18.:49:20.

staffing and there are so many things you are doing at the moment

:49:21.:49:23.

that is going to decrease that staffing. You want to decrease

:49:24.:49:28.

immigration which the NHS gets a lot of skilled workers from the EU to

:49:29.:49:32.

work in the NHS and without them we wouldn't be able to be there. The

:49:33.:49:38.

junior contracts are pushing junior doctors away, there's been a

:49:39.:49:41.

decrease in medical school applications this year and an

:49:42.:49:45.

increase in junior doctors wanting to work abroad. I'm a medical

:49:46.:49:49.

student and I don't want to stay in England if these plans go through.

:49:50.:49:55.

What did you say? She's getting trained by us, by our taxes and now

:49:56.:49:59.

she's saying she doesn't want to work in this country.

:50:00.:50:06.

APPLAUSE All right. I think you will find she's probably in about ?50,000

:50:07.:50:11.

worth of debt once she finishes. APPLAUSE

:50:12.:50:18.

We are obviously deep into the NHS and cuts and somebody was talking

:50:19.:50:21.

about the state of the combhi so I just want to keep on that topic but

:50:22.:50:25.

with a different question from Rachel Taylor, please?

:50:26.:50:31.

Can we really afford to send ?500 million to help with the migration

:50:32.:50:35.

crisis when there are so many cut backs happening here?

:50:36.:50:39.

We have been talking about the NHS, the cutbacks and all the rest of it,

:50:40.:50:45.

can we afford to send ?500 million which has been promised to help with

:50:46.:50:50.

the migration crisis, Paul Nuttall? We should be helping with the

:50:51.:50:54.

migration crisis and sending money. I do hope that that cash though will

:50:55.:50:58.

come out of the ?12 billion worth of foreign aid that we send out every

:50:59.:51:12.

single year. Do you approve of the friend aid? I would approve of it in

:51:13.:51:19.

places where there are starving children or there's ebola or the

:51:20.:51:21.

migration problem. I would support that. What I don't support is

:51:22.:51:26.

foreign aid going to countries richer than ourselves. I want you to

:51:27.:51:30.

consider, that's ?235 25 million every single day that leaves these

:51:31.:51:35.

shores. Do you know last night, 100,000 kids had to sleep in hostels

:51:36.:51:44.

in B In the week of Armistice, 8,000 ex-servicemen slept rough last

:51:45.:51:47.

night. Do you know what, that's your taxation. That should be spent here

:51:48.:51:52.

in our country on our people, on our transport network, on our schools

:51:53.:52:00.

and on the NHS. Stig Abell? Do you want to come in

:52:01.:52:07.

on this, I heard you say "well said"? Speak your mind? I honestly

:52:08.:52:11.

believe we are spending too much on foreign aid. I do believe that we

:52:12.:52:16.

have to pay for the migrant crisis, especially the people coming from

:52:17.:52:19.

Sir yarks but we also have to realise the amount of pressure it's

:52:20.:52:23.

putting on our country on all Public Services, not just the Health

:52:24.:52:28.

Service, it's the policing, the benefits system, you name it and

:52:29.:52:33.

it's putting pressure on this vast amount of people. -- coming from

:52:34.:52:44.

Syria. If we got rid of tremendous dent we'd have ?167 billion which

:52:45.:52:49.

would be... APPLAUSE

:52:50.:52:51.

And we'd be unsafe. It would be like Ukraine. Keep me in false eye lashes

:52:52.:52:57.

for a bit. Do I think that we are giving too much money - we are a

:52:58.:53:02.

really rich country. In the light of the cutbacks? I know, but it's this

:53:03.:53:07.

idea isn't it, you know, that like there aren't enough council houses,

:53:08.:53:11.

you know and that people shouldn't be allowed to buy the council

:53:12.:53:16.

houses. I'm quite for that, we just need to build more council houses.

:53:17.:53:19.

The thing is, it's not a case of should we or shouldn't we give aid

:53:20.:53:24.

to other countries. Take it from the rich people, your friends, or the

:53:25.:53:43.

people who're Getting let off from being taxed. We took what we wanted,

:53:44.:53:53.

split up the land and everything and were built on colonialism. So we are

:53:54.:53:56.

now going to say you can't have anything back. You in the middle?

:53:57.:54:00.

The terms of foreign aid, we need to act to spend more. There are crises

:54:01.:54:05.

going on constantly around the world not getting national attention.

:54:06.:54:09.

There is plenty of money that yes OK isn't going to work, probably should

:54:10.:54:13.

go, to say get rid of Trident is going to give us a massive national

:54:14.:54:19.

security error in this country. We have massive terrorist threats going

:54:20.:54:23.

on and you want to disrupt the one process that's keeping us safe, it's

:54:24.:54:29.

preposterous and stupid. How is it keeping us safe?

:54:30.:54:33.

Stig? Nobody objects to the notion of foreign aid, we are a wealthy

:54:34.:54:37.

country, we have to have our responsibility as part of a

:54:38.:54:43.

globalised world to help people. No-one in their right mind would

:54:44.:54:48.

ever question that. They'd question how we've arrived at an arbitrary

:54:49.:54:56.

figure. It has to be ?12 billion, which is 0.7%. That means you have

:54:57.:55:00.

to find things to spend money on at the end of your budget so you are

:55:01.:55:03.

not responding to crises or spending the money where it's needed, you are

:55:04.:55:08.

trying to make a balance sheet work, which is an appalling way to deal

:55:09.:55:12.

with humanitarian issues around the world. If you are sitting there as

:55:13.:55:16.

Chancellor of the Exchequer now, you have a commitment to the 0.7%

:55:17.:55:21.

because your parties agree it. If you don't have that, you are sitting

:55:22.:55:25.

there with the Chancellor, you have all the problems with the welfare

:55:26.:55:30.

and NHS... You should be expected to prioritise. You can even say, we'll

:55:31.:55:37.

have a maximum of 0.7%, but we'll prioritise against that. When facing

:55:38.:55:42.

cry says, when people are sleeping rough, we may move that number. You

:55:43.:55:46.

are binding yourself to an arbitrary figure. If that meant ?12 billion

:55:47.:55:50.

was spent beautifully wisely and saved desperate people in the world,

:55:51.:55:54.

that would be a great thing but it actually means accountants get at it

:55:55.:55:57.

and say, at the end of the year we make sure we spend it and quick fix

:55:58.:56:01.

things because that's where the money can go.

:56:02.:56:09.

Lucy Powell? Look, what these issues are always are, is very emittive.

:56:10.:56:13.

What are the two main principles that should guide you about how you

:56:14.:56:18.

spend Government money within the envelope that you have available to

:56:19.:56:21.

you -- emotive. The first thing is whether it's the right thing to do

:56:22.:56:25.

for the country or not, whether it's the right thing to do, the second

:56:26.:56:29.

thing is whether in the long run it helps you save money and deal with

:56:30.:56:33.

other problems that may come up the track. In the case of foreign aid, I

:56:34.:56:38.

think it meets both those requirements because, not only is it

:56:39.:56:42.

the right thing to do, but in the long run it will help deal with

:56:43.:56:45.

people wanting the leave the country. No-one wants to leave their

:56:46.:56:49.

home country without good reason and, for many of the people who're

:56:50.:56:54.

now travelling in terrible circumstances half way around the

:56:55.:56:58.

world with their small children in really dangerous circumstances,

:56:59.:57:01.

they're dog so because they are living in fear of where they are

:57:02.:57:06.

living and they are living in terrible war and terrible

:57:07.:57:10.

circumstances -- they are doing so. We should be taking action as a

:57:11.:57:17.

country to try and help persuade those people to stay in their home

:57:18.:57:21.

countries or settle themselves there. I'm going to have to stop you

:57:22.:57:26.

because I'm coming to tend and I want to bring Sa individual Javid

:57:27.:57:33.

in? We are a proud nation. We have a responsibility to help the most

:57:34.:57:38.

desperate people in the world -- coming to the end.

:57:39.:57:45.

APPLAUSE The Syrian refugees are exceptionally desperate right now

:57:46.:57:49.

and it's right we provide them with shelter, food medicine. If we don't

:57:50.:57:52.

help there, this could be a problem on our doorstep, a much bigger

:57:53.:57:57.

issue, so it's both moral and practical.

:57:58.:58:00.

APPLAUSE I'm sorry to say, time's up.

:58:01.:58:07.

That was quick. It was quick. It always goes quick. We can't do

:58:08.:58:12.

extra time. You are in Belfast next week, you can come there. Manchester

:58:13.:58:17.

the week after that. The details are on the screen on how to apply. Next

:58:18.:58:25.

week in Belfast, we have Theresa Villiers, Peter Hain and the

:58:26.:58:30.

comedian and writer Rory Maguire, the week after that we are in

:58:31.:58:34.

Manchester. If you want to come to Belfast or Manchester, go to the

:58:35.:58:38.

website or call the number. This debate carries on on Five Live. My

:58:39.:58:44.

talks to the panel and to all of you who came to take part in

:58:45.:58:48.

Stoke-on-Trent. From all of us here, good night.

:58:49.:58:56.

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Stoke-on-Trent. The panellists are Conservative business secretary Sajid Javid MP, Labour's shadow education secretary Lucy Powell MP, Ukip deputy leader Paul Nuttall MEP, writer and campaigner Paris Lees and managing editor of The Sun Stig Abell.


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