19/11/2015 Question Time


19/11/2015

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Conservative former Defence, now Business Minister, Anna Soubry.

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Labour's Shadow Home Secretary, Andy Burnham.

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Guardian leader writer, former editor of the French daily

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Le Monde, and just back from Paris, Natalie Nougayrede.

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Military historian, Daily Mail columnist and former editor of

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Broadcaster Mehdi Hasan, based in Washington working for

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And the Russian-British businessman Evgeny Lebedev, owner of the

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If you want to text or tweet our hashtag is BBCQT,

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Text comments to 83981, and press the Red Button to see what

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Lets have our first question from Dr Nina Parmar, please. Is it time to

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take full military action against Isis? Anna Soubry. In short, yes.

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APPLAUSE I think it is really important that

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everybody, if I may say, understands that nobody likes to say yes,

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because we understand that that is a very dangerous thing to do and it

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puts lots of lives at risk. But it is the right thing to do now because

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of what has happened in France, in Paris, the city of love that has

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been turned into these terrible scenes, which I think have touched

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everybody's hearts, and rightly so. But it has shown us, as if we did

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not know, what crisis really is like. It is a barbarity and

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brutality I don't think we have seen the like of before. So we do need to

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take that action and we need to take it as quickly as we can. But I also

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want to say that we need to take it with political consensus, as much as

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we can. I am pleased to hear the words of Alex Salmond, foreign

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affairs spokesman for the SNP. We have our differences but he speaks a

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lot of sense at times, and he speaks with authority. And I think he is

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beginning to talk the right language, if I may say. And I look

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forward to Labour also coming with us, and other parties, so that if we

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can build a consensus, we need to get on with this. Unfortunately, we

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need to act quickly. The question was to take full military action.

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What do you mean by that, Anna Soubry? At the moment, we mean air

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strikes, not boots on the ground. There is an argument that that is a

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more effective and additional way of taking on these terrorists, but we

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now need to join our international colleagues. We are working in Iraq

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and taking action thereby we need to extend it into Syria. But it is not

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against the Syrians. Make it clear, this is not the same as 2013 when

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the vote was about Syria, Assad and what he was doing with chemical

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weapons. This is about Isis, and times against us and we need to get

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on and sort it out. Mehdi Hasan. Full military action. Let's start

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with the point that there is already military action. Isis have been

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bombed for nearly a year now and that has not made as much difference

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as those who were in favour of that were saying a year ago. For me, I

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remember 9/11 when I think about Paris, I think about the major

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atrocity of our lives, the September 11 attacks. What did we do after

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that? We had a president who declared war, went into Afghanistan

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guns blazing, had air strikes, supported rebel groups on the ground

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and toppled the Isis of 2001, the Taliban, a horrific regime. We

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patted ourselves on the back and 14 years later we are still stuck in

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Afghanistan fighting a brutal terrorist insurgency, fighting

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terrorists across the world. Who believes the world is any safer than

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it was on September 12, 2001? In fact, the opposite.

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APPLAUSE So, no action is your view? Not at

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all. But the idea of full military action... What action? There is a

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reason why Isis are striking -- thriving in Syria and Iraq, it is

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because they war-torn countries. If you are going to defeat Isis in

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Syria the first thing to do is get a ceasefire and solution in Syria. The

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Foreign Office select committee pointed out that your government has

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not made the case for air strikes because it has no coherent policy

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and air strikes distract -- distract us from what needs to be done on the

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ground, getting Saudi Arabia and Iran round the table.

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APPLAUSE I want to hear from the man down

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there in white. Unfortunately, the conflicts in the Middle East date

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back to the seventh century. A political solution at this second is

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out of the question for both sides at this moment. The man on the

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gangway. Anna Soubry, you talk of political consensus but earlier

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today I was reading on the BBC that David Cameron was willing to take

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action without a UN mandate because of the Russians blocking it with a

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veto. That is different. Ira member when we were going into Iraq and

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Tony Blair did not have a mandate from the UN, that has become his

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legacy. -- I remember. How would it be OK for David Cameron but it was

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not OK back then? Max Hastings. I agree with everything that was just

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said on the other side of the table about the need for caution at this

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stage. Anybody who pretends the answers are easy are people we

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should mistrust. We have to strengthen domestic security against

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terrorism here in Europe. That is the easy part. But what we do

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abroad, the great principle one should act on is don't make things

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any worse. We talk of building consensus, but consensus for what? I

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know hardly anybody in the military field who believes simply bombing in

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Syria will achieve anything, unless there is also a political and

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somatic offensive. -- unless there is also a political and diplomatic

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offensive. As you know, this is not just about taking air strikes

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against Isis, that is only part of all the other things we are doing,

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including finding a short and long-term solution in Syria and

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Iraq. This is just another thing. Can we get it in the right order?

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The first thing that has to be done, whether you like it or not, the

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Russians have to be talked to. There can be no deal in Syria without

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talking to the Russians. Cameron has a ready done that, talked to Putin.

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Which side are you on in this argument? In the circumstances we

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find ourselves this week, it would be wrong to rule anything out. This

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is an attack on our way of life. I don't think we can sit by and accept

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it. But I have sat in Parliament this week and I have had a growing

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feeling that we are back where we were ten or more years ago as Mehdi

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Hasan was saying, and not learning the lessons of the last decade. What

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were the two big lessons of Iraq? Number one, the UN mandate. That was

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a failure on our part. We should have worked to get that and we

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didn't. It was reported that Cameron met Putin in Vienna last week but

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did not once raised the question of the UN. We need to see evidence that

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he wants to get the UN mandate because you need to build a

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consensus, build solidarity to take on this question. He should be

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working hard to get that UN mandate. Are you saying it would not

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be legitimate without the UN mandate. In the House of Commons he

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said it was desirable but not an essential qualification. You have to

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look at the circumstances. We have four of five permanent members

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involved in some way. The circumstances are building and we

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have had progress with Russia. The 2nd question is an important one.

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The 2nd failure of Iraq was the failure to plan for the aftermath.

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That was the failure. And that actually...

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APPLAUSE And let's be honest, speaking as

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somebody who voted for that intervention, that failure to plan

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led to the conditions that we see. Let me finish the point.

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led to the conditions that we see. to be a plan for Syria, doesn't

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there, there has to be to be a plan for Syria, doesn't

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what will happen on the ground. Syria

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what will happen on the ground. different groups, if you just bomb,

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what will happen on the ground. what is going to happen on the

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ground? The conditions are being plan that has international backing

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so if there is action there is then a plan for the future of Syria. So

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the idea a plan for the future of Syria. So

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cross over the phoney border into a plan for the future of Syria. So

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Syria, you would oppose them doing a plan for the future of Syria. So

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of their power unless there was UN agreement on the future of Syria and

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those other things. I didn't quite say that. I want to see the Prime

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Minister straining every sinew to get that UN backing. I am saying

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that looks possible now, given the progress with Russia and given the

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fact that members of the Security Council, most of them, are now

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committed one way or another. It looks possible. He

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committed one way or another. It prioritising that, not just

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committed one way or another. It it would be nice. He needs to get

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that UN mandate because if he gets it we will be in a stronger position

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going forward. About the UN mandate, we all know that for the four years

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that the Syrian civil war has been going on, Russia has presented three

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times its veto in the UN Security Council, blocking that UN mandate.

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Now, Russia will, I think, only agree to a resolution if the text

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says that Assad, the Syrian president who has had his army

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bombing civilians for four years now and creating a huge human

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bombing civilians for four years now is responsible for the overall

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majority of the 250, up to is responsible for the overall

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300,000 people who have been killed sure he is considered as an ally.

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This is the problem we now. The person who has set his own

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country to fire and caused this tragedy in Syria. What has happened

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in Paris this past week is basically the Syrian civil war flowing out,

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exporting its disorder and its horrors to our European soil. And we

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are all faced, as Europeans, with this problem. And I think it

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revolves centrally around stopping the massacres and atrocities that

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Assad has been carrying out. APPLAUSE

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We were hearing about Putin's involvement. There's been talk about

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the possibility of an alliance between countries in Europe which I

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very much hope will be achieved very soon. We work together to achieve

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something which I believe is truly the biggest threat humanity faces.

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When I read about Isis the first time, or Islamic state, or the

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formation of it and the potential threat that I saw it would be posing

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to our way of life because their whole culture, their whole way of

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living and the whole premise on which they exist is to fight against

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our way of life, the aim of the caliphate is to spread the caliphate

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across all worlds Muslims and to spread Islam across the world, I

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don't know how much more, how many more atrocities need to happen in

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order for people to wake up, for the Governments to wake up to work

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together to defeat this enemy. We've had so far Tunisia, Beirut, Turkey,

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the downing of a Russian plane with 224 innocent civilians and last

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weekend we had Paris. The terrible thing... I just say one thing.

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If Putin was bombing Isis, why did Isis claim to bring down the Russian

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plane. You mentioned 9/11 earlier and the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.

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Al-Qaeda train and exist on Taliban-controlled Afghanistan land

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and the atrocity that was committeded on American soil on 9/11

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was absolutely outrageous. Islamic state is much more sophisticated

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than Al-Qaeda was then, can you just imagine what they are capable of

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doing. The question that Nina asked was, is it time to take full

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military action. What military action do you think should be taken

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and would Russia agree to? At the moment there is a need for

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coordinated air strikes and I complete hi agree with Max that air

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strikes on their own is not going to solve this, but, as I learn and, as

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I speak to, actually independent newspaper correspondents who I

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believe, particularly Patrick Hoburn, one of the greatest world

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experts on Isis who's just written a book on Isis, a coalition of ground

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forces fighting already on Syrian land is the solution so far. The

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woman there? It seems to me as though we are fighting an

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unconventional and evolving enemy so it's conventional warfare, is that

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the solution, I don't think it is, it doesn't seem the solution, it

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hasn't worked so far. In what sense is it not? Do they really have

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boundaries, specific land boundaries? They seem to be

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infiltrating the whole world so going in and bombing a specific part

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of the woshled... Max Hastings, what do the military say about taking on

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Isis, on the military front... The military is very divided. There are

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some military leaders who'd like to see us go in there and bomb but the

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problem is still, and the friends whom I respect feel this, nobody

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around this table yet has defined what are our objectives, whose side

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are we on, it's not enough to be against Assad and Isis, I would have

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thought everything we have learn learnt in the last 14 years is

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about... The question was about Isis and you are confusing it with our

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dispute with Assad. It's been fuelled by Assad. He's killed...

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ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

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This is really important. I want air strikes against Isis. We are doing

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the right thing by having all our negotiations in Vienna about the

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future of Syria, we want peace in Syria, and Assad was part of the

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short-term, but not the long-term solution. What about Libya? We are

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doing lots of things. This is one thing we must now do because of

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what's happened, particularly in Paris, but also the downing of the

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jet. This is where there's a problem. The Government's argument I

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think has been too simplistic because you are trying to separate

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the two things completely and trying to say there's Isil here and Assad

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and the Civil War here. These two things can't be separated in that

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way, if you were to bomb around Raqqa and that area, you have a

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complex situation on the ground because of the Civil War. And you,

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you too have to make a choice. The Select Committee said to the

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Government, you cannot separate these things in the way that you are

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trying to do and you've got to answer that as a Government before

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you can expect... All right, hold it you two. We a

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agree on that. Fine, let us hear what our audience think. You, Sir,

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on the front? Is it not more realistic to talk about engaging

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Isis, potentially driving a wedge between the various factionses that

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constitute Isis, but also the reality surely is not about

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eliminating Isis but a policy of condition teenagement because the

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idea that they are somehow going to be eliminated from the region I

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think is ridiculous. What do you mean by containment? How would it

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prevent Paris happening? Well, it looks as though the successes have

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already been achieved if we are to believe it, it's about taking out

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leaders and the higher Echelons of Isis in an attempt to hold back the

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movement and hold back the spread of... Hold on, hold on panel, I want

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to hear members of the audience because I think people watching

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would like to hear what they have to say. It's obvious that you are keen

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to go in and bomb and have massive military action. Keen or not keen,

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you think it's now the time to to so, how are you going to protect

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against massive collateral damage and civilian loss because these poor

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people are being attacked by Assad, their own government and now by our

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forces, the French went in and bombed today, I don't know if you

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have seen the images of loss of life, children, hospitals, where do

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these people turn because they can't turn to us?

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All right. APPLAUSE

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NATS Lee, President Hollande has said France is at war, what is your

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answer to her -- Natalie? It's obvious that I think a policy that

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would be just about air strikes, it has its obvious limits and it's

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Daning ruse, the ones you just mentioned. -- dangerous. Concerning

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those dangers, collateral damage, I would worry more because I covered

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the war in Chechnya ten years ago and I would worry much more about

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the collateral damage from Russian bombs than from western bombs at

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this point in time, but it's obvious that just air strikes will not do

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it, so we are facing a very complex situation where I don't think Isis

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can be convinced or it doesn't look like it's an entity that you can

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break down into different tendencies an trends. These are highly

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idealogyised. Look, nobody wants to do this, nobody has a happy heart

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doing it, it's just that because of where we are, we can't negotiate

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with these people, they are beyond reason and, almost humanity. It's

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with huge regret... You have made your point. The woman with the

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spectacles three in and then I'll come to you as you have had your

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hand up for some time. You, first? Should we not be investigating who's

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actually funding Isis... Yes APPLAUSE

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The idea that it can be stopped, the funding? Oh, yes. Yes, so who is

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buying oil potentially from them, who is giving them weapons, who is

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giving them arms, for example, and shouldn't we sanction countries that

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are funding them, is that not more of a point for the UN to tackle?

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Should we sanction it ourselves, that's the danger. What about the

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money flowing now? It's outrageous that Isis is selling $2 million

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worth of oil a day, it's outrageous that the oil roots have only just

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been bombed now. Just to clarify, you would like the oil routes

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bombed? I'm saying if you are going to take military action against

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Isil, do that. You are bombing Raqqa, a city of people. You approve

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of the bombing, clarify? My view is Isis cannot be defeated without a

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component of military action. Should it be the West? No. That raises a

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whole other issue with blow back. I want to say one thing, if military

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action is the right course of action, fine, but let's be honest

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about the consequences, it's not cost free. Plenty of Isis experts

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have said, they have made the point that Russia's attacked Isis and a

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plane went down, France is bombing Isis, Paris is. There are

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consequences to our foreign policy. There have been seven thwarted

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attacks in the last 12 months on our country, on our people. We need to

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contain them. David Cameron went on Andrew Marr and said Russia

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intervening in Syria leads to more radicalisation and terrorism. He was

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supporting Assad. We'll be supporting Assad if we go in and

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only take on Isis. The woman there on the gangway. You, yes? I would

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like to go back to the first statement you made Anna, you said

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Isis is a threat, I would like to remind you that Assad's regime has

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killed seven more times people than Isis has done this year alone. When

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will Assad become a threat, when he attacks a European country? That's

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what it seems to me now. What do you think of Isis? It doesn't represent

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Islam, it goes there saying we are going to take over and we are doing

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this for the sake of Islam. . It doesn't. My heart goes out to the

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people attacked in Paris but now we have the situation where we have to

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apologise and do this and that, but what I want to ask you, Isis is a

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threat, but Assad is a bigger they want. Why don't you take that into

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account? I don't think he's a bigger threat. I agree with your analysis

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of the barbarity of the regime. Parliament took a vote that we'd not

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get involved in the internal Civil War against Assad. We are working

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diplomatically in Vienna, working with allies, I'm talking about Isis

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and the need to take the air strikes which others are doing to join in

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that coalition. Thank you, I don't want to stop you but I don't want to

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stop the other five people. When you spoke of us and them, of

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none-Islamic individuals and Islamic individuals, I want to reiterate

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that Islamic state doesn't represent Muslims at all.

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APPLAUSE I did agree with a lot of what he

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said though. Mehdi's point, why is it that we criticise Russia's stance

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but not our own in terms of mill tar action. I'll take another question

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-- military action. We have a number of questions on the topic. I'll come

:23:49.:23:53.

to you if a moment then you, Sir. Simon Warr. I should say, as ever,

:23:54.:23:57.

where we are going to be next though. We are in Manchester next

:23:58.:24:00.

week and Birmingham the week after that. On the screen is the number if

:24:01.:24:05.

you want to come. We'll be back in Belfast where we were due to be

:24:06.:24:08.

tonight, we'll be back there in January. Simon Warr, please?

:24:09.:24:17.

Isn't declaring all out war on Isis precisely what they want us to do?

:24:18.:24:23.

Natalie? I think you have a point there. I think they do want to

:24:24.:24:30.

attract as much retaliation and response as possible, possibly even

:24:31.:24:34.

ground troops which I think would be a dangerous option from a Western

:24:35.:24:39.

perspective and, we've seen the results of ground operations

:24:40.:24:42.

elsewhere which weren't quite convincing. So I do think that one

:24:43.:24:46.

has to be careful with that kind of vocabulary. It's clear the French

:24:47.:24:50.

President used that kind of vole cack lair because of the utter

:24:51.:24:56.

horror of what had happened in Paris -- vocabulary. The pain everybody

:24:57.:25:03.

felt, it was felt there was a need to put everybody in mobilisation

:25:04.:25:07.

mode. That was clearly a rhetoric he felt would be able to rally people

:25:08.:25:11.

in France, but also people beyond France. I do want to make the point

:25:12.:25:17.

that French people have been extremely sensitive and touched by

:25:18.:25:23.

the signal of support and the messages of support they have been

:25:24.:25:31.

getting. I think it's important, it's important to see the larger

:25:32.:25:34.

European angle and I think it's important to keep in mind that we

:25:35.:25:38.

need to do something together and show that we are in this together

:25:39.:25:42.

and not fragmented each and every nation on its own. Simon, you say it

:25:43.:25:49.

may be that all-out war may be precisely what Isis wants. Are you

:25:50.:25:53.

suggesting no military action should be taken because that's what it

:25:54.:25:57.

wants to provoke? Yes. They should go by divide and rule. Isis have had

:25:58.:26:02.

their nose put out of joint because everybody is flooding across to

:26:03.:26:05.

Western Europe. They want to turn Muslims in Europe against other

:26:06.:26:09.

Muslims. I read in the paper some incident in Scotland where some poor

:26:10.:26:15.

innocent Muslim man in a shop was threatened because of this. That's

:26:16.:26:20.

exactly what Isis want, the more we attack them, we bomb them, innocent

:26:21.:26:25.

Muslims are going to be slaughtered, they'll say, look what the West are

:26:26.:26:29.

dog to us again and they are going to hopefully...

:26:30.:26:31.

APPLAUSE Get the support.

:26:32.:26:40.

We have heard a lot about strategy and what is David Cameron's strategy

:26:41.:26:46.

tonight, but I would raise this question. President Hollande

:26:47.:26:56.

declared war against Isis. France is a member of Nato and as I understand

:26:57.:27:01.

it the philosophy of Nato is that if one member is attacked, all members

:27:02.:27:07.

are attacked. So what is Nato's strategy? Max Hastings. We are still

:27:08.:27:14.

coming to terms with the huge problem of non-state enemies, which

:27:15.:27:17.

is new to this generation. In the days of the old days of Nato we knew

:27:18.:27:21.

who the enemy was, the Soviet Union, but this is a new world. Everybody

:27:22.:27:26.

is still trying to feel their way to how to deal with this. It isn't easy

:27:27.:27:32.

because it was by no means a silly point that was put about the notion,

:27:33.:27:35.

would we be doing what Isis wanted by attacking them. They are putting

:27:36.:27:40.

out videos all the time challenging the West to come and fight them on

:27:41.:27:45.

the ground. But everything I have heard so far this evening, outrage

:27:46.:27:50.

is no substitute for policy. We all load of Isis and everything it

:27:51.:27:54.

stands for, we all recoil from Assad, but if we are going to launch

:27:55.:27:59.

military action, who are we for, who are we aiming to support? I think it

:28:00.:28:02.

is right that Nato, France or Britain stops to answer that

:28:03.:28:06.

question before we launch any military action.

:28:07.:28:11.

APPLAUSE Let's hear the Jeremy Corbyn take on

:28:12.:28:16.

this. This is my take on it. I want to come back to what Simon said

:28:17.:28:20.

because I think he put it very well. They want us to be forced into knee

:28:21.:28:25.

jerk response is my take on it. I want to come back to what Simon said

:28:26.:28:28.

because I think he put it very well. They want us to be forced into knee

:28:29.:28:30.

jerk responses polarise. That is what this is designed to do, it is

:28:31.:28:34.

designed to divide us, to set one country against another, designed to

:28:35.:28:37.

set one religion against another, designed to make us want to turn our

:28:38.:28:41.

back on refugees, which in my view we must not do. That is what it is

:28:42.:28:46.

designed to do and we need to think it through, which is why we must not

:28:47.:28:51.

let it happen, which is why the UN route is so important. If we are not

:28:52.:28:55.

allowing ourselves to be divided, we will be in a stronger position. If

:28:56.:29:02.

we hold together, that is how we will prevail. You are suggesting the

:29:03.:29:06.

Prime Minister should get parliamentary approval here, from

:29:07.:29:10.

labour and Jeremy Corbyn, if the UN route is taken, and otherwise it is

:29:11.:29:15.

a rather iffy question. He has not put his proposal, David, has he? We

:29:16.:29:21.

don't know what he wants. It is premature, but I am saying that I

:29:22.:29:26.

think the question is a very good one, because that is understanding

:29:27.:29:29.

the nature of what we are confronting. We need to become more

:29:30.:29:33.

sophisticated. Country that was attacked in the first place often

:29:34.:29:38.

has an instinctive strike back straightaway. We should do it

:29:39.:29:42.

together, as the gentleman says, as a European union. You must all

:29:43.:29:46.

please come on the panel, keep your remarks a bit more taut, because

:29:47.:29:49.

otherwise nobody in the audience will get a chance to speak and half

:29:50.:29:54.

the panel will not get a chance to speak. I agree we need to be

:29:55.:29:58.

sophisticated, and I worry about the language of war. I get why President

:29:59.:30:02.

Hollande talk that way, I get his desire for vengeance and I would

:30:03.:30:05.

probably say the same in his position. But war is traditionally

:30:06.:30:11.

between two states. Why give these cowardly women or is the prestige

:30:12.:30:14.

and status they desperately crave as warriors and soldiers, and which

:30:15.:30:25.

they do not deserve. -- why give these cowards the prestige. In the

:30:26.:30:30.

month of Remembrance Sunday, I find it astonishing that we are not

:30:31.:30:33.

thinking of the human cost to UK troops, and the fact that we know

:30:34.:30:38.

after the last two war is the amount of damage it did to our troops, the

:30:39.:30:44.

number of lives lost. Last week, 8000 veterans that served this

:30:45.:30:49.

country were homeless. When we are talking about long-term strategy, we

:30:50.:30:52.

need to think about how we are going to deal with that, our mental health

:30:53.:30:55.

resources, supporting to deal with that, our mental health

:30:56.:31:01.

the streets. It is appalling, the way we treat them. Are you saying

:31:02.:31:05.

that no act of war is legitimate for whatever purpose? Not at all. I am

:31:06.:31:11.

saying if we are putting our troops on the ground in a vulnerable

:31:12.:31:15.

position we need to not only think about the cost to civilian life in

:31:16.:31:19.

that country, but the cost to our troops and public services and how

:31:20.:31:22.

we are going to support them, which we are failing to do at the moment.

:31:23.:31:29.

APPLAUSE Politicians all the way up to our

:31:30.:31:35.

previous Prime Minister Tony Blair, commentators, experts have all

:31:36.:31:38.

acknowledged that commentators, experts have all

:31:39.:31:41.

has partly led to the unrest in the region and even

:31:42.:31:47.

has partly led to the unrest in the bodies. I am concerned, as a citizen

:31:48.:31:49.

of this country, that any bodies. I am concerned, as a citizen

:31:50.:31:52.

action will lead to bodies. I am concerned, as a citizen

:31:53.:31:55.

into Isis and more unrest in the region. How can we avoid that? We

:31:56.:32:02.

are suppressing lessons learned from Iraq with the delay in the Chilcot

:32:03.:32:08.

Inquiry. I was very much against the invasion of Iraq and if I had been

:32:09.:32:11.

in Parliament I would not have voted for it. But in the extraordinary

:32:12.:32:17.

circumstances which we are in, we have never known anything like Isis.

:32:18.:32:21.

It is not just about what they did in Paris, or what they did with the

:32:22.:32:25.

aeroplane or in Baghdad. It is also the fact that they behead people.

:32:26.:32:30.

They murder people because they are gay. They are beyond barbarity. We

:32:31.:32:35.

have never known anything like this before. There are other things, this

:32:36.:32:40.

is not in isolation. Do you know before. There are other things, this

:32:41.:32:47.

that Saudi Arabia beheads people and we are quite close allies with Saudi

:32:48.:32:49.

Arabia? APPLAUSE

:32:50.:32:58.

Hang on, that sounds like apologies. They don't go onto the streets of

:32:59.:33:03.

Paris and shoot people in the way that they did. Don't try and make

:33:04.:33:08.

out... You said that headings, I am just pointing out. You are just

:33:09.:33:13.

making a cheap point, this is beyond cheap political points.

:33:14.:33:16.

making a cheap point, this is beyond cheap point, it goes to the heart of

:33:17.:33:21.

our policy in the Middle East. Re-evaluate what the

:33:22.:33:25.

our policy in the Middle East. in the Middle East. Are we taking

:33:26.:33:27.

the right stance in the various conflicts? Right now, a

:33:28.:33:29.

the right stance in the various Arab countries are bombing Yemen,

:33:30.:33:32.

the poorest country in the Middle East, and we are helping them do

:33:33.:33:40.

that. You are just throwing stuff into muddy the waters. Don't have a

:33:41.:33:51.

spat. What are you trying to say? Only people in Paris matter? I am

:33:52.:33:55.

not saying that and you know that. You are better than these cheap

:33:56.:34:01.

points. I would go back to Simon's original question about whether this

:34:02.:34:04.

is exactly what they want us to do and I would say no, because they

:34:05.:34:08.

would not be able to withstand the military might of a united force.

:34:09.:34:11.

The trouble with what is happening now is that it is very this jointed.

:34:12.:34:16.

The French are doing something, the Russians are doing something, the

:34:17.:34:19.

Brits are not doing anything on Syrian territory. The idea that if

:34:20.:34:24.

Brits are not doing anything on we leave them alone they will leave

:34:25.:34:25.

us alone is really not going to work and is naive. I will tell you why,

:34:26.:34:31.

because as was pointed out earlier, there have been seven possible

:34:32.:34:33.

attacks foiled in this country just this year. That is a terrifying

:34:34.:34:43.

thought. If we do try and boost Rape Crisis, we are going to kill a lot

:34:44.:34:46.

of innocent civilians at the same time. That is going to breed more

:34:47.:34:50.

discontent which will lead to other groups. We may get rid of Isis, but

:34:51.:34:59.

another group will grow. We need to keep a sense of proportion. You keep

:35:00.:35:02.

saying this is an unprecedented threat. This is quite untrue. In the

:35:03.:35:07.

2nd and First World War, this country faced far graver

:35:08.:35:11.

challengers. Isis is a disease, and unpleasant disease, but this is not

:35:12.:35:16.

an existential threat. The one thing that will not help us is if

:35:17.:35:19.

politicians in senior positions, such as you, grossly exaggerate.

:35:20.:35:25.

Isis is not an ex is then shall threaten our society. We keep our

:35:26.:35:29.

nerve, act sensibly and do not make things worse by military action. We

:35:30.:35:33.

will see this through and I'm quite sure we will prevail.

:35:34.:35:38.

APPLAUSE I wanted to address the point that

:35:39.:35:42.

this country has faced extraordinary threaten the First World War and the

:35:43.:35:45.

2nd World War but I would argue that this threat is just as strong. We

:35:46.:35:51.

are not going to be invaded and occupied. One person at a time.

:35:52.:36:01.

Natalie, please. I think we are facing a very, very scary

:36:02.:36:04.

phenomenon, which is a combination of territories controlled today, in

:36:05.:36:14.

Syria and Iraq, controlled by Isis, networks that feed into Europe, that

:36:15.:36:19.

exist. There are Isis cells in Europe. Then there is the ideology

:36:20.:36:24.

of Isis, which spreads online and which tries to target young Muslims

:36:25.:36:27.

in Europe, but not just young Muslims. We know this is a

:36:28.:36:34.

completely new phenomenon. They want to cast themselves as a state, and

:36:35.:36:38.

they have some of the attributes of a state because they do have hard

:36:39.:36:42.

military equipment, heavy military equipment, and they claim even to

:36:43.:36:46.

produce their own money. We are dealing with a phenomenon which is

:36:47.:36:51.

quite new. The point is not to ask whether the West or Europe hasn't

:36:52.:36:55.

made mistakes in the Middle East, of course it has made mistakes in the

:36:56.:36:58.

Middle East. But that is not the question today. The question today

:36:59.:37:03.

is how to get it right and how to understand that the new guy

:37:04.:37:07.

mentioned is that this thing going on in the Middle East is now coming

:37:08.:37:11.

to us. -- the new dimensional is that this thing is coming to us.

:37:12.:37:15.

That is the new phenomenon. It is not quite the first time. There have

:37:16.:37:19.

been bombings in London and Madrid in the last decade or so, but the

:37:20.:37:24.

magnitude of what has happened in Paris forces us to get it right this

:37:25.:37:29.

time. I think we can only do that if we work together and if we identify

:37:30.:37:33.

that the main factor that has grown Isis these last years has been the

:37:34.:37:39.

massacres, the massacres carried out of Sunni populations by the Assad

:37:40.:37:45.

regime. In Syria, that has been the main reason for the growth of Isis.

:37:46.:37:51.

I am going to move on to a slightly different question. Amy Anderson.

:37:52.:37:56.

How are British citizens supposed to feel protected when Europe has

:37:57.:38:01.

welcomed jihadis back into our world as apparent refugees. How is Britain

:38:02.:38:10.

supposed to feel protected when Europe has welcomed jihadis back as

:38:11.:38:16.

apparent refugees? Well, I think the original response of Europeans was

:38:17.:38:19.

very, very admirable, because the pictures that we saw, and actually

:38:20.:38:24.

the Independent newspaper was the first to publish the picture of the

:38:25.:38:29.

little boy washed up on shore, the fact that Europeans welcomed

:38:30.:38:32.

refugees with open arms was very, very commendable. That said, with

:38:33.:38:36.

recent events and what has happened in Paris, I think we have two review

:38:37.:38:42.

how we accept and what we do with the incoming refugees, and how they

:38:43.:38:51.

are accepted, and not be, I suppose, well, not free for all. I would say

:38:52.:38:57.

we just need to have some sort of controls and see how we can accept

:38:58.:39:06.

them. Mehdi Hasan. With regard to the question, in France and Paris,

:39:07.:39:10.

as far as I am aware, there were no refugees involved, every perpetrator

:39:11.:39:16.

was an EU citizen. There has been a fake Syrian passport recovered, but

:39:17.:39:20.

no evidence of a refugee involved. You know what, I don't care. Let's

:39:21.:39:25.

say there were eight refugees involved. Are we going to punish 5

:39:26.:39:30.

million Syrian refugees because five Syrians were involved in an act of

:39:31.:39:34.

terror? What steps would you take to try and make sure that among the

:39:35.:39:40.

people, 20,000 is the target in Britain, according to the Prime

:39:41.:39:45.

Minister... We have taken 216 on the UN scheme. What would you make --

:39:46.:39:51.

how would you make sure that didn't include... What would you do about

:39:52.:39:56.

it? The United States government already has intensive vetting

:39:57.:39:59.

procedures for refugees in resettlement schemes. If you had

:40:00.:40:03.

more than open door on refugees you could vet them better, if they do

:40:04.:40:06.

not come on rickety boats, which is harder to deal with. But if you

:40:07.:40:10.

leave them in overcrowded camps on the borders of Syria, they are much

:40:11.:40:14.

more prime targets for Isil recruitment than if they come here

:40:15.:40:18.

and we show the world there is no clash between the West and Islam. Do

:40:19.:40:25.

you agree? I don't think there is evidence yet, as has been said. The

:40:26.:40:30.

thing to stress is that Isis, Isil, they want us to turn our backs on

:40:31.:40:34.

the few gees. It makes us better than them, the fact that we do

:40:35.:40:40.

welcome people in. -- refugees. What could we do about it? Of course,

:40:41.:40:44.

there needs to be better control. In the summer, Greek authorities were

:40:45.:40:48.

overwhelmed and could not process people arriving on the shores of

:40:49.:40:51.

Europe, so they were not properly getting the details down so that the

:40:52.:40:55.

information could be shared across Europe with intelligence services,

:40:56.:41:00.

so gaps were therein the system. We need a much better system across

:41:01.:41:04.

Europe. I think the time has come to look again at the Schengen

:41:05.:41:07.

agreement, the idea that Europe can have no internal borders at all. It

:41:08.:41:12.

is wonderful, it is idealistic, but I think it is basically designed for

:41:13.:41:16.

a different age than the one that we are now in. We need better control

:41:17.:41:19.

because that better protect vulnerable people as well. Your

:41:20.:41:24.

characterisation in your question I don't think was fair. However, it

:41:25.:41:28.

would seem one of the individuals who went back to Belgium had been in

:41:29.:41:32.

Syria. That was actually mostly my point. We have found out obviously

:41:33.:41:38.

that the people that committed the Paris atrocities were EU citizens.

:41:39.:41:44.

However, what happened is they went to Syria, committed further

:41:45.:41:49.

atrocities, but they were not picked up and they came back. You have a

:41:50.:41:57.

really good point. And that, bottom line, we should know who these

:41:58.:42:03.

people are. Your point is strong and the point is that other member

:42:04.:42:06.

states who do not have a history of dealing with terrorism, such as

:42:07.:42:10.

Belgium, perhaps don't have sophisticated systems to monitor

:42:11.:42:13.

people. The characteristics of this terrible attack was that it was an

:42:14.:42:17.

attack planned and coordinated in a different member state from the one

:42:18.:42:20.

in which it was carried out. That tells us there need to be better

:42:21.:42:26.

sharing of information about people coming in and out. Such as a carload

:42:27.:42:32.

of explosives guns... Exactly, better checks at the Channel Tunnel.

:42:33.:42:37.

I don't think that there are the same border checks there. We need to

:42:38.:42:42.

look at our procedures across Europe because quite frankly there are

:42:43.:42:43.

gaps. OK, a question very much on this

:42:44.:42:48.

point OK, a question very much on this

:42:49.:43:08.

intelligence is where it should be. OK, a question very much on this

:43:09.:43:13.

We shouldn't confuse refugees and all the right things we are doing by

:43:14.:43:14.

them and what has all the right things we are doing by

:43:15.:43:21.

passports taken away from all the right things we are doing by

:43:22.:43:30.

they couldn't go and join terror groups notely in countries like

:43:31.:43:32.

Syria. I was astonished at this figure. Nearly 100,000 figure were

:43:33.:43:38.

refused entry into Brinton grounds they were a float to our national

:43:39.:43:49.

security -- 100,000 people were refused entry into Britain. What

:43:50.:43:57.

about the police though, Anna? Andy I will quite happily deal with the

:43:58.:44:00.

question about the police. You are about to cut the police aren't you,

:44:01.:44:07.

25% cuts? No. APPLAUSE

:44:08.:44:10.

You made a speech where you said it was doable and I would like you to

:44:11.:44:15.

agree that it was doable to make cuts of between 5 and up 2010%. Do

:44:16.:44:21.

you still stand by that, yes or no? Well, an narks I'm taking a very

:44:22.:44:25.

responsible position because you are planning 25% cuts. That was what

:44:26.:44:34.

George Osborne at the Budget said, unprotected department budgets at

:44:35.:44:38.

the department. Would you take it in turns to talk and not talk over each

:44:39.:44:40.

other. Wait a minute. turns to talk and not talk over each

:44:41.:44:48.

turns. I have said on advice from the police, they

:44:49.:44:48.

turns. I have said on advice from over 5 years is difficult but

:44:49.:44:54.

doable. If you go beyond that 52010%, it debts more difficult.

:44:55.:44:58.

Going into doubling figures, it's very dangerous. I've learnt

:44:59.:45:01.

something and I've been made aware of a letter that's been sent to the

:45:02.:45:07.

Home Secretary, commissioned by COBRA last weekend when the question

:45:08.:45:10.

was asked, what are the resource implication for the police in the

:45:11.:45:14.

wake of Paris and the let's gone back which says what I've just said,

:45:15.:45:18.

that it's doable to do 5% over the next five years, if you cut the

:45:19.:45:23.

budget between 5 and 10 it's difficult but go beyond that it's

:45:24.:45:27.

dangerous. That would take thousands of police officers off the beat if

:45:28.:45:30.

you do that. I'm saying to you, I'm supporting the Government in many

:45:31.:45:33.

ways in terms of what you are doing. I support what they are dog on the

:45:34.:45:38.

investigatory powers Bill. You have got to listen to the police and drop

:45:39.:45:45.

these plans. You didn't answer the question. I did answer the question.

:45:46.:45:49.

Do you stand by your statement that you made - and now you are

:45:50.:45:54.

interrupting me - do you stand by your statement that 5-10... I stand

:45:55.:45:59.

by my statement. I won't interrupt you. Let me tell you what I said.

:46:00.:46:04.

Look, this is getting silly. Wait a moment. Look, we've got serious

:46:05.:46:08.

things to talk about. APPLAUSE

:46:09.:46:11.

In the House of Commons, there's room for a lot of political tit for

:46:12.:46:16.

cat, we are talking about serious things here. You are saying that a

:46:17.:46:28.

5% cut 5 is doable, 5-10 is difficult, over 10 is dangerous. Is

:46:29.:46:32.

that clear? Your point is? In a speech Andy said... I've just

:46:33.:46:38.

repeated it, Anna. Let mayor finish, for goodness sake. Come on? In a

:46:39.:46:45.

speech, he said 5-10% was doable. That's what he said already. I've

:46:46.:46:51.

said it again. I'm going to leave this. Can I answer the gentleman's

:46:52.:46:58.

question? Yes, I'm going to leave the point. He's changed his mind.

:46:59.:47:08.

France expanded their surveillance power after Charlie Hebdo, please

:47:09.:47:11.

let's not assume that mass surveillance is a magic bullet. Some

:47:12.:47:18.

of the most repressive countries, Saudi, Iran, China, Russia vrks had

:47:19.:47:24.

mass casualty attacks. Every time there is an attack, we increase and

:47:25.:47:30.

get more counterterror laws, we don't care about civil liberties,

:47:31.:47:35.

the terrorist want to turn open society into closed society.

:47:36.:47:41.

Max Hastings, same rule force you? -- rules for you? We have to

:47:42.:47:45.

remember that a range of plots has been frustrated in the last year,

:47:46.:47:49.

ten years, which are overwhelmingly due to electronic surveillance.

:47:50.:47:54.

Where do we draw the line? What is obvious, our parents and

:47:55.:47:58.

grandparents had to defend themselves with Spitfires. It's

:47:59.:48:00.

obvious that when we are dealing with a threat of this seriousness,

:48:01.:48:06.

and it is serious enough that we have to review at every level,

:48:07.:48:11.

including the police and intelligence and electronics experts

:48:12.:48:14.

of what we do. It must be a proportionate response and we have

:48:15.:48:17.

to keep our head. Listening to the representatives of the two main

:48:18.:48:22.

parties arguing about police funding is deeply depressing.

:48:23.:48:28.

APPLAUSE All right.

:48:29.:48:34.

I want to take a question from Emily Otvos, please? Do Muslims have a

:48:35.:48:39.

responsibility for controlling and preventing radicalisation? Do

:48:40.:48:43.

Muslims take a responsibility or have a responsibility for

:48:44.:48:45.

controlling and preventing radicalisation? Absolutely. I think

:48:46.:48:56.

we need to hear more Muslims speaking out about what is happening

:48:57.:49:02.

against Islamic state, its policy and I really hope we'll hear more of

:49:03.:49:07.

that. The other point to make is that the coalition I talked about

:49:08.:49:11.

earlier has to include Muslim countries because that's absolutely

:49:12.:49:15.

crucial a part of war against Islamic state. I think that is a

:49:16.:49:18.

worrying statement because I think if we hold, after an event like

:49:19.:49:23.

Paris, if we hold all Muslims somehow responsible or we ask them

:49:24.:49:28.

that they need to somehow feel a special responsibility for it, we

:49:29.:49:32.

are stigmatising huge communities. Hear, hear. That is what Isis wants.

:49:33.:49:39.

I didn't say that, I said I would like to hear more moderate Muslims

:49:40.:49:46.

voicing their opinions. What about a march of moderates? That implies

:49:47.:49:50.

that Muslims are especially responsible. I have nothing to do

:49:51.:49:54.

with Isis, my daughter doesn't, my 77-year-old father doesn't. In fact,

:49:55.:50:05.

last week two of the attackers in Paris were guys who owned a bar and

:50:06.:50:09.

sold a bar six weeks before the attacks, not my definition of devout

:50:10.:50:13.

Muslim. Should I ask bar owners to go on a march. All right, you have

:50:14.:50:18.

made the point, thank you Mehdi. Thank you. Please, I know you are

:50:19.:50:25.

getting angry. I'm not angry at all, you are. I'm not. I want to be able

:50:26.:50:30.

to hear what everybody is saying. You, there? I was the one that asked

:50:31.:50:34.

the question and I don't think Muslims have any more right than

:50:35.:50:38.

anybody else to take responsibility for preventing radicalisation. The

:50:39.:50:42.

Isis militants come in and destroy our Western democracy and, as a

:50:43.:50:48.

society, we all out of basic level of humanities have a responsibility

:50:49.:50:52.

for preventing radicalisation. It happens in schools, every day

:50:53.:50:54.

communities, we all need to take responsibility for this and, saying

:50:55.:51:00.

that Muslims alone should take responsibility just encourages

:51:01.:51:06.

Islamophobia. The man in the third row, fourth in? I'm a teacher and I

:51:07.:51:13.

take your point about Muslims. In Luton, we want to talk about the

:51:14.:51:21.

mosques, students, we have talked to them. We argue that we are white

:51:22.:51:27.

English teachers, how the hell are we supposed to know who they are. We

:51:28.:51:34.

don't have a clue. I hope the mosques would know more than we

:51:35.:51:40.

would. Andy Burnham? Well, I think politicians particularly knead toe

:51:41.:51:43.

take great care in making statements of the kind that you are objecting

:51:44.:51:48.

to. Earlier in the summer, the Prime Minister made a speech where he said

:51:49.:51:52.

parts of the Muslim community were quietly condoning extremism. Now,

:51:53.:51:56.

that alienates at a stroke the very people that you need to be working

:51:57.:52:02.

with together hand in hand to deal with the issues, so I take the point

:52:03.:52:05.

entirely where you are coming from. However, and this is to give a nod

:52:06.:52:14.

to Evgeny, Sadiq Khan, one of the most prominent Muslim politicians in

:52:15.:52:18.

the country, has said prominent Muslims should do more to take on

:52:19.:52:22.

the cancer of extremism - his words. Coming from him, that is an

:52:23.:52:25.

important statement and people do want to hear that, but it's about,

:52:26.:52:29.

as you are saying, everybody, a cross community, it's everybody's

:52:30.:52:34.

issue. It's not a religion, it's a perversion of Islam, as we have

:52:35.:52:39.

said. Often it's because communities are disenfranchised where people

:52:40.:52:42.

feel like they are second class citizens where they don't get the

:52:43.:52:45.

same opportunities in life. There are deep-seated causes and we need a

:52:46.:52:50.

more sophisticated response. If I could say one thing to add to

:52:51.:52:56.

Sadiq's words, which is that they should stop burying their heads in

:52:57.:53:00.

the sand and speak out against this cancer. The Muslim Council of

:53:01.:53:06.

Britain... Anna Soubry? Every single leading cleric and leader of Muslim

:53:07.:53:12.

communities came out and signed a statement condemning what happened

:53:13.:53:16.

in Paris and in other terror attacks by Isis and it's really sad it

:53:17.:53:21.

didn't get the publicity it deserved.

:53:22.:53:23.

APPLAUSE This idea that the Muslim community

:53:24.:53:27.

is not doing its bit is not true and I think it's worth remembering,

:53:28.:53:33.

actually more Muslims died in Paris than actually committed those

:53:34.:53:37.

atrocities. APPLAUSE

:53:38.:53:41.

Max Hastings? One thing we haven't said to far this evening, I for one,

:53:42.:53:47.

I doubt if anyone else in this hall would disagree, I'm absolutely

:53:48.:53:51.

confident that we are going to win this, although what's happening is

:53:52.:53:55.

horrendous, Isis is a death cult borne out of the deep frustration in

:53:56.:53:58.

extreme Muslim circles that it has nothing to offer. All the

:53:59.:54:03.

hard-working, sensible law-abiding Muslims around the world who're

:54:04.:54:06.

getting on with their lives, it has nothing to offer the world at large.

:54:07.:54:12.

Whereas communism and fascism pose more serious threats, we ought to,

:54:13.:54:16.

as we approach the end of the programme, there's every reason to

:54:17.:54:21.

feel an optimism despite this ghastly event in Paris and despite

:54:22.:54:26.

whatever may happen here, we are stronger than they are because our

:54:27.:54:30.

values are income braibly more valuable than theirs. Plawzth

:54:31.:54:43.

APPLAUSE -- income braibly more valuable than

:54:44.:54:49.

theirs. APPLAUSE

:54:50.:54:49.

This is not a war from APPLAUSE

:54:50.:54:55.

necessarily Christians or the West, it's also a war on Muslims. Millions

:54:56.:55:01.

of refugees. The woman in the second row from the back? Hi. I would like

:55:02.:55:09.

to ask Evgeny, instead of asking Muslims to

:55:10.:55:09.

to ask Evgeny, instead of asking shouldn't he perhaps ask the media

:55:10.:55:16.

to take responsibility for propagating this afilliation between

:55:17.:55:21.

Muslims and Isis when actually that should feeds into Islamophobia and

:55:22.:55:27.

alienates Muslims? APPLAUSE

:55:28.:55:29.

You have to speak for the whole media, not just your particular bit?

:55:30.:55:34.

I shall. I'll say the war being waged against us is a different war,

:55:35.:55:40.

as Max rightly pointed out. It's waged on three fronts; on the

:55:41.:55:43.

ground, information war which you mentioned and the third is

:55:44.:55:46.

ideological war and you are right, it's a very, very fine balance and I

:55:47.:55:52.

know that editors that workfor my newspapers and other newspapers have

:55:53.:55:55.

to come up against a very difficult decision on a daily basis on whether

:55:56.:55:59.

to give coverage to particular atrocities being committed. But

:56:00.:56:04.

where do you draw the line and stop showing the public, where do you

:56:05.:56:09.

stop thoughing what is happening, for example when Stephen Sotlov was

:56:10.:56:16.

beheaded, the Independent took a decision not to put Jihadi John on

:56:17.:56:22.

the front-page in his boiler suit but a picture of Stephen Sotlov when

:56:23.:56:30.

he was free. What is your objection? A lot of what matters is not what

:56:31.:56:35.

you show, but how you show it. I take objection to the fact that we

:56:36.:56:39.

refer to the terrorist group as imlambic state. At what point are

:56:40.:56:45.

they acting -- Islamic state. If I call myself a zebra, do you then

:56:46.:56:54.

refer to me as a zebra? You on the third row a quick point if

:56:55.:56:59.

refer to me as a zebra? You on the would? We are a British society and

:57:00.:57:01.

Government. We would? We are a British society and

:57:02.:57:06.

to Isis and others. We have programmes running successfully

:57:07.:57:07.

where we programmes running successfully

:57:08.:57:08.

we undermine, challenge programmes running successfully

:57:09.:57:18.

this awful dogma, this programmes running successfully

:57:19.:57:20.

that's been and said to be in some way part of Islam, it's not, it's

:57:21.:57:24.

completely contrary and we make that argument and it's done by brilliant

:57:25.:57:29.

people who often do it voluntarily within the Muslim community. That is

:57:30.:57:32.

such an important way to stop this from happening in the very first

:57:33.:57:36.

place. This is not going to be a short-term thing, it's going to take

:57:37.:57:40.

a long time. On that note, we have had an hour, aired a number of

:57:41.:57:44.

issues but we can't go on longer but I hope some of the things we have

:57:45.:57:49.

said have been interesting and helpful to those watching. Thank you

:57:50.:57:51.

to the audience for taking helpful to those watching. Thank you

:57:52.:57:54.

to the audience for taking part. We are in Manchester next week and

:57:55.:57:57.

Birmingham the week after that. If you would like to come either place,

:57:58.:58:00.

Manchester or Birmingham, it would be good to see you. You can apply to

:58:01.:58:04.

the website or to the number on the screen there.

:58:05.:58:09.

If you are listening on Five Live, as many do, as you know, the debate

:58:10.:58:13.

will go on in a lively form on Question Time extra time, but here,

:58:14.:58:19.

my thanks to our panel and again to you our audience for coming here for

:58:20.:58:22.

this special programme. Until next Thursday from Question Time, good

:58:23.:58:24.

night.

:58:25.:58:26.

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