Browse content similar to 19/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Conservative former Defence, now Business Minister, Anna Soubry. | :00:00. | :00:26. | |
Labour's Shadow Home Secretary, Andy Burnham. | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
Guardian leader writer, former editor of the French daily | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
Le Monde, and just back from Paris, Natalie Nougayrede. | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
Military historian, Daily Mail columnist and former editor of | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
Broadcaster Mehdi Hasan, based in Washington working for | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
And the Russian-British businessman Evgeny Lebedev, owner of the | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
If you want to text or tweet our hashtag is BBCQT, | :00:55. | :01:14. | |
Text comments to 83981, and press the Red Button to see what | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
Lets have our first question from Dr Nina Parmar, please. Is it time to | :01:21. | :01:38. | |
take full military action against Isis? Anna Soubry. In short, yes. | :01:39. | :01:46. | |
APPLAUSE I think it is really important that | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
everybody, if I may say, understands that nobody likes to say yes, | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
because we understand that that is a very dangerous thing to do and it | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
puts lots of lives at risk. But it is the right thing to do now because | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
of what has happened in France, in Paris, the city of love that has | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
been turned into these terrible scenes, which I think have touched | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
everybody's hearts, and rightly so. But it has shown us, as if we did | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
not know, what crisis really is like. It is a barbarity and | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
brutality I don't think we have seen the like of before. So we do need to | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
take that action and we need to take it as quickly as we can. But I also | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
want to say that we need to take it with political consensus, as much as | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
we can. I am pleased to hear the words of Alex Salmond, foreign | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
affairs spokesman for the SNP. We have our differences but he speaks a | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
lot of sense at times, and he speaks with authority. And I think he is | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
beginning to talk the right language, if I may say. And I look | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
forward to Labour also coming with us, and other parties, so that if we | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
can build a consensus, we need to get on with this. Unfortunately, we | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
need to act quickly. The question was to take full military action. | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
What do you mean by that, Anna Soubry? At the moment, we mean air | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
strikes, not boots on the ground. There is an argument that that is a | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
more effective and additional way of taking on these terrorists, but we | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
now need to join our international colleagues. We are working in Iraq | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
and taking action thereby we need to extend it into Syria. But it is not | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
against the Syrians. Make it clear, this is not the same as 2013 when | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
the vote was about Syria, Assad and what he was doing with chemical | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
weapons. This is about Isis, and times against us and we need to get | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
on and sort it out. Mehdi Hasan. Full military action. Let's start | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
with the point that there is already military action. Isis have been | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
bombed for nearly a year now and that has not made as much difference | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
as those who were in favour of that were saying a year ago. For me, I | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
remember 9/11 when I think about Paris, I think about the major | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
atrocity of our lives, the September 11 attacks. What did we do after | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
that? We had a president who declared war, went into Afghanistan | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
guns blazing, had air strikes, supported rebel groups on the ground | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
and toppled the Isis of 2001, the Taliban, a horrific regime. We | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
patted ourselves on the back and 14 years later we are still stuck in | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
Afghanistan fighting a brutal terrorist insurgency, fighting | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
terrorists across the world. Who believes the world is any safer than | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
it was on September 12, 2001? In fact, the opposite. | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
APPLAUSE So, no action is your view? Not at | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
all. But the idea of full military action... What action? There is a | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
reason why Isis are striking -- thriving in Syria and Iraq, it is | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
because they war-torn countries. If you are going to defeat Isis in | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
Syria the first thing to do is get a ceasefire and solution in Syria. The | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
Foreign Office select committee pointed out that your government has | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
not made the case for air strikes because it has no coherent policy | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
and air strikes distract -- distract us from what needs to be done on the | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
ground, getting Saudi Arabia and Iran round the table. | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
APPLAUSE I want to hear from the man down | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
there in white. Unfortunately, the conflicts in the Middle East date | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
back to the seventh century. A political solution at this second is | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
out of the question for both sides at this moment. The man on the | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
gangway. Anna Soubry, you talk of political consensus but earlier | :05:54. | :05:55. | |
today I was reading on the BBC that David Cameron was willing to take | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
action without a UN mandate because of the Russians blocking it with a | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
veto. That is different. Ira member when we were going into Iraq and | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
Tony Blair did not have a mandate from the UN, that has become his | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
legacy. -- I remember. How would it be OK for David Cameron but it was | :06:14. | :06:21. | |
not OK back then? Max Hastings. I agree with everything that was just | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
said on the other side of the table about the need for caution at this | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
stage. Anybody who pretends the answers are easy are people we | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
should mistrust. We have to strengthen domestic security against | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
terrorism here in Europe. That is the easy part. But what we do | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
abroad, the great principle one should act on is don't make things | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
any worse. We talk of building consensus, but consensus for what? I | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
know hardly anybody in the military field who believes simply bombing in | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
Syria will achieve anything, unless there is also a political and | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
somatic offensive. -- unless there is also a political and diplomatic | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
offensive. As you know, this is not just about taking air strikes | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
against Isis, that is only part of all the other things we are doing, | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
including finding a short and long-term solution in Syria and | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
Iraq. This is just another thing. Can we get it in the right order? | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
The first thing that has to be done, whether you like it or not, the | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
Russians have to be talked to. There can be no deal in Syria without | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
talking to the Russians. Cameron has a ready done that, talked to Putin. | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
Which side are you on in this argument? In the circumstances we | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
find ourselves this week, it would be wrong to rule anything out. This | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
is an attack on our way of life. I don't think we can sit by and accept | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
it. But I have sat in Parliament this week and I have had a growing | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
feeling that we are back where we were ten or more years ago as Mehdi | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Hasan was saying, and not learning the lessons of the last decade. What | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
were the two big lessons of Iraq? Number one, the UN mandate. That was | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
a failure on our part. We should have worked to get that and we | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
didn't. It was reported that Cameron met Putin in Vienna last week but | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
did not once raised the question of the UN. We need to see evidence that | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
he wants to get the UN mandate because you need to build a | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
consensus, build solidarity to take on this question. He should be | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
working hard to get that UN mandate. Are you saying it would not | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
be legitimate without the UN mandate. In the House of Commons he | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
said it was desirable but not an essential qualification. You have to | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
look at the circumstances. We have four of five permanent members | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
involved in some way. The circumstances are building and we | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
have had progress with Russia. The 2nd question is an important one. | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
The 2nd failure of Iraq was the failure to plan for the aftermath. | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
That was the failure. And that actually... | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
APPLAUSE And let's be honest, speaking as | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
somebody who voted for that intervention, that failure to plan | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
led to the conditions that we see. Let me finish the point. | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
led to the conditions that we see. to be a plan for Syria, doesn't | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
there, there has to be to be a plan for Syria, doesn't | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
what will happen on the ground. Syria | :09:29. | :09:28. | |
what will happen on the ground. different groups, if you just bomb, | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
what will happen on the ground. what is going to happen on the | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
ground? The conditions are being plan that has international backing | :09:34. | :09:44. | |
so if there is action there is then a plan for the future of Syria. So | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
the idea a plan for the future of Syria. So | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
cross over the phoney border into a plan for the future of Syria. So | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
Syria, you would oppose them doing a plan for the future of Syria. So | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
of their power unless there was UN agreement on the future of Syria and | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
those other things. I didn't quite say that. I want to see the Prime | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
Minister straining every sinew to get that UN backing. I am saying | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
that looks possible now, given the progress with Russia and given the | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
fact that members of the Security Council, most of them, are now | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
committed one way or another. It looks possible. He | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
committed one way or another. It prioritising that, not just | :10:28. | :10:29. | |
committed one way or another. It it would be nice. He needs to get | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
that UN mandate because if he gets it we will be in a stronger position | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
going forward. About the UN mandate, we all know that for the four years | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
that the Syrian civil war has been going on, Russia has presented three | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
times its veto in the UN Security Council, blocking that UN mandate. | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
Now, Russia will, I think, only agree to a resolution if the text | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
says that Assad, the Syrian president who has had his army | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
bombing civilians for four years now and creating a huge human | :11:06. | :11:06. | |
bombing civilians for four years now is responsible for the overall | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
majority of the 250, up to is responsible for the overall | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
300,000 people who have been killed sure he is considered as an ally. | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
This is the problem we now. The person who has set his own | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
country to fire and caused this tragedy in Syria. What has happened | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
in Paris this past week is basically the Syrian civil war flowing out, | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
exporting its disorder and its horrors to our European soil. And we | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
are all faced, as Europeans, with this problem. And I think it | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
revolves centrally around stopping the massacres and atrocities that | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
Assad has been carrying out. APPLAUSE | :11:53. | :12:01. | |
We were hearing about Putin's involvement. There's been talk about | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
the possibility of an alliance between countries in Europe which I | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
very much hope will be achieved very soon. We work together to achieve | :12:15. | :12:21. | |
something which I believe is truly the biggest threat humanity faces. | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
When I read about Isis the first time, or Islamic state, or the | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
formation of it and the potential threat that I saw it would be posing | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
to our way of life because their whole culture, their whole way of | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
living and the whole premise on which they exist is to fight against | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
our way of life, the aim of the caliphate is to spread the caliphate | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
across all worlds Muslims and to spread Islam across the world, I | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
don't know how much more, how many more atrocities need to happen in | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
order for people to wake up, for the Governments to wake up to work | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
together to defeat this enemy. We've had so far Tunisia, Beirut, Turkey, | :13:04. | :13:12. | |
the downing of a Russian plane with 224 innocent civilians and last | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
weekend we had Paris. The terrible thing... I just say one thing. | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
If Putin was bombing Isis, why did Isis claim to bring down the Russian | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
plane. You mentioned 9/11 earlier and the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
Al-Qaeda train and exist on Taliban-controlled Afghanistan land | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
and the atrocity that was committeded on American soil on 9/11 | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
was absolutely outrageous. Islamic state is much more sophisticated | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
than Al-Qaeda was then, can you just imagine what they are capable of | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
doing. The question that Nina asked was, is it time to take full | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
military action. What military action do you think should be taken | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
and would Russia agree to? At the moment there is a need for | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
coordinated air strikes and I complete hi agree with Max that air | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
strikes on their own is not going to solve this, but, as I learn and, as | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
I speak to, actually independent newspaper correspondents who I | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
believe, particularly Patrick Hoburn, one of the greatest world | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
experts on Isis who's just written a book on Isis, a coalition of ground | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
forces fighting already on Syrian land is the solution so far. The | :14:34. | :14:41. | |
woman there? It seems to me as though we are fighting an | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
unconventional and evolving enemy so it's conventional warfare, is that | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
the solution, I don't think it is, it doesn't seem the solution, it | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
hasn't worked so far. In what sense is it not? Do they really have | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
boundaries, specific land boundaries? They seem to be | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
infiltrating the whole world so going in and bombing a specific part | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
of the woshled... Max Hastings, what do the military say about taking on | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
Isis, on the military front... The military is very divided. There are | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
some military leaders who'd like to see us go in there and bomb but the | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
problem is still, and the friends whom I respect feel this, nobody | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
around this table yet has defined what are our objectives, whose side | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
are we on, it's not enough to be against Assad and Isis, I would have | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
thought everything we have learn learnt in the last 14 years is | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
about... The question was about Isis and you are confusing it with our | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
dispute with Assad. It's been fuelled by Assad. He's killed... | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
This is really important. I want air strikes against Isis. We are doing | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
the right thing by having all our negotiations in Vienna about the | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
future of Syria, we want peace in Syria, and Assad was part of the | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
short-term, but not the long-term solution. What about Libya? We are | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
doing lots of things. This is one thing we must now do because of | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
what's happened, particularly in Paris, but also the downing of the | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
jet. This is where there's a problem. The Government's argument I | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
think has been too simplistic because you are trying to separate | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
the two things completely and trying to say there's Isil here and Assad | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
and the Civil War here. These two things can't be separated in that | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
way, if you were to bomb around Raqqa and that area, you have a | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
complex situation on the ground because of the Civil War. And you, | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
you too have to make a choice. The Select Committee said to the | :16:44. | :16:45. | |
Government, you cannot separate these things in the way that you are | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
trying to do and you've got to answer that as a Government before | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
you can expect... All right, hold it you two. We a | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
agree on that. Fine, let us hear what our audience think. You, Sir, | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
on the front? Is it not more realistic to talk about engaging | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
Isis, potentially driving a wedge between the various factionses that | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
constitute Isis, but also the reality surely is not about | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
eliminating Isis but a policy of condition teenagement because the | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
idea that they are somehow going to be eliminated from the region I | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
think is ridiculous. What do you mean by containment? How would it | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
prevent Paris happening? Well, it looks as though the successes have | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
already been achieved if we are to believe it, it's about taking out | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
leaders and the higher Echelons of Isis in an attempt to hold back the | :17:40. | :17:47. | |
movement and hold back the spread of... Hold on, hold on panel, I want | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
to hear members of the audience because I think people watching | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
would like to hear what they have to say. It's obvious that you are keen | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
to go in and bomb and have massive military action. Keen or not keen, | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
you think it's now the time to to so, how are you going to protect | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
against massive collateral damage and civilian loss because these poor | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
people are being attacked by Assad, their own government and now by our | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
forces, the French went in and bombed today, I don't know if you | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
have seen the images of loss of life, children, hospitals, where do | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
these people turn because they can't turn to us? | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
All right. APPLAUSE | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
NATS Lee, President Hollande has said France is at war, what is your | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
answer to her -- Natalie? It's obvious that I think a policy that | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
would be just about air strikes, it has its obvious limits and it's | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
Daning ruse, the ones you just mentioned. -- dangerous. Concerning | :18:48. | :18:55. | |
those dangers, collateral damage, I would worry more because I covered | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
the war in Chechnya ten years ago and I would worry much more about | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
the collateral damage from Russian bombs than from western bombs at | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
this point in time, but it's obvious that just air strikes will not do | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
it, so we are facing a very complex situation where I don't think Isis | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
can be convinced or it doesn't look like it's an entity that you can | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
break down into different tendencies an trends. These are highly | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
idealogyised. Look, nobody wants to do this, nobody has a happy heart | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
doing it, it's just that because of where we are, we can't negotiate | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
with these people, they are beyond reason and, almost humanity. It's | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
with huge regret... You have made your point. The woman with the | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
spectacles three in and then I'll come to you as you have had your | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
hand up for some time. You, first? Should we not be investigating who's | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
actually funding Isis... Yes APPLAUSE | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
The idea that it can be stopped, the funding? Oh, yes. Yes, so who is | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
buying oil potentially from them, who is giving them weapons, who is | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
giving them arms, for example, and shouldn't we sanction countries that | :20:12. | :20:21. | |
are funding them, is that not more of a point for the UN to tackle? | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
Should we sanction it ourselves, that's the danger. What about the | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
money flowing now? It's outrageous that Isis is selling $2 million | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
worth of oil a day, it's outrageous that the oil roots have only just | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
been bombed now. Just to clarify, you would like the oil routes | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
bombed? I'm saying if you are going to take military action against | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
Isil, do that. You are bombing Raqqa, a city of people. You approve | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
of the bombing, clarify? My view is Isis cannot be defeated without a | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
component of military action. Should it be the West? No. That raises a | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
whole other issue with blow back. I want to say one thing, if military | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
action is the right course of action, fine, but let's be honest | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
about the consequences, it's not cost free. Plenty of Isis experts | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
have said, they have made the point that Russia's attacked Isis and a | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
plane went down, France is bombing Isis, Paris is. There are | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
consequences to our foreign policy. There have been seven thwarted | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
attacks in the last 12 months on our country, on our people. We need to | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
contain them. David Cameron went on Andrew Marr and said Russia | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
intervening in Syria leads to more radicalisation and terrorism. He was | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
supporting Assad. We'll be supporting Assad if we go in and | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
only take on Isis. The woman there on the gangway. You, yes? I would | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
like to go back to the first statement you made Anna, you said | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
Isis is a threat, I would like to remind you that Assad's regime has | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
killed seven more times people than Isis has done this year alone. When | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
will Assad become a threat, when he attacks a European country? That's | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
what it seems to me now. What do you think of Isis? It doesn't represent | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
Islam, it goes there saying we are going to take over and we are doing | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
this for the sake of Islam. . It doesn't. My heart goes out to the | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
people attacked in Paris but now we have the situation where we have to | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
apologise and do this and that, but what I want to ask you, Isis is a | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
threat, but Assad is a bigger they want. Why don't you take that into | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
account? I don't think he's a bigger threat. I agree with your analysis | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
of the barbarity of the regime. Parliament took a vote that we'd not | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
get involved in the internal Civil War against Assad. We are working | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
diplomatically in Vienna, working with allies, I'm talking about Isis | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
and the need to take the air strikes which others are doing to join in | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
that coalition. Thank you, I don't want to stop you but I don't want to | :23:12. | :23:21. | |
stop the other five people. When you spoke of us and them, of | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
none-Islamic individuals and Islamic individuals, I want to reiterate | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
that Islamic state doesn't represent Muslims at all. | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
APPLAUSE I did agree with a lot of what he | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
said though. Mehdi's point, why is it that we criticise Russia's stance | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
but not our own in terms of mill tar action. I'll take another question | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
-- military action. We have a number of questions on the topic. I'll come | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
to you if a moment then you, Sir. Simon Warr. I should say, as ever, | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
where we are going to be next though. We are in Manchester next | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
week and Birmingham the week after that. On the screen is the number if | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
you want to come. We'll be back in Belfast where we were due to be | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
tonight, we'll be back there in January. Simon Warr, please? | :24:09. | :24:17. | |
Isn't declaring all out war on Isis precisely what they want us to do? | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
Natalie? I think you have a point there. I think they do want to | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
attract as much retaliation and response as possible, possibly even | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
ground troops which I think would be a dangerous option from a Western | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
perspective and, we've seen the results of ground operations | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
elsewhere which weren't quite convincing. So I do think that one | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
has to be careful with that kind of vocabulary. It's clear the French | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
President used that kind of vole cack lair because of the utter | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
horror of what had happened in Paris -- vocabulary. The pain everybody | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
felt, it was felt there was a need to put everybody in mobilisation | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
mode. That was clearly a rhetoric he felt would be able to rally people | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
in France, but also people beyond France. I do want to make the point | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
that French people have been extremely sensitive and touched by | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
the signal of support and the messages of support they have been | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
getting. I think it's important, it's important to see the larger | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
European angle and I think it's important to keep in mind that we | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
need to do something together and show that we are in this together | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
and not fragmented each and every nation on its own. Simon, you say it | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
may be that all-out war may be precisely what Isis wants. Are you | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
suggesting no military action should be taken because that's what it | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
wants to provoke? Yes. They should go by divide and rule. Isis have had | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
their nose put out of joint because everybody is flooding across to | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
Western Europe. They want to turn Muslims in Europe against other | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
Muslims. I read in the paper some incident in Scotland where some poor | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
innocent Muslim man in a shop was threatened because of this. That's | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
exactly what Isis want, the more we attack them, we bomb them, innocent | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
Muslims are going to be slaughtered, they'll say, look what the West are | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
dog to us again and they are going to hopefully... | :26:30. | :26:31. | |
APPLAUSE Get the support. | :26:32. | :26:40. | |
We have heard a lot about strategy and what is David Cameron's strategy | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
tonight, but I would raise this question. President Hollande | :26:47. | :26:56. | |
declared war against Isis. France is a member of Nato and as I understand | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
it the philosophy of Nato is that if one member is attacked, all members | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
are attacked. So what is Nato's strategy? Max Hastings. We are still | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
coming to terms with the huge problem of non-state enemies, which | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
is new to this generation. In the days of the old days of Nato we knew | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
who the enemy was, the Soviet Union, but this is a new world. Everybody | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
is still trying to feel their way to how to deal with this. It isn't easy | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
because it was by no means a silly point that was put about the notion, | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
would we be doing what Isis wanted by attacking them. They are putting | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
out videos all the time challenging the West to come and fight them on | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
the ground. But everything I have heard so far this evening, outrage | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
is no substitute for policy. We all load of Isis and everything it | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
stands for, we all recoil from Assad, but if we are going to launch | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
military action, who are we for, who are we aiming to support? I think it | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
is right that Nato, France or Britain stops to answer that | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
question before we launch any military action. | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
APPLAUSE Let's hear the Jeremy Corbyn take on | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
this. This is my take on it. I want to come back to what Simon said | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
because I think he put it very well. They want us to be forced into knee | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
jerk response is my take on it. I want to come back to what Simon said | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
because I think he put it very well. They want us to be forced into knee | :28:29. | :28:30. | |
jerk responses polarise. That is what this is designed to do, it is | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
designed to divide us, to set one country against another, designed to | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
set one religion against another, designed to make us want to turn our | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
back on refugees, which in my view we must not do. That is what it is | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
designed to do and we need to think it through, which is why we must not | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
let it happen, which is why the UN route is so important. If we are not | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
allowing ourselves to be divided, we will be in a stronger position. If | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
we hold together, that is how we will prevail. You are suggesting the | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
Prime Minister should get parliamentary approval here, from | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
labour and Jeremy Corbyn, if the UN route is taken, and otherwise it is | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
a rather iffy question. He has not put his proposal, David, has he? We | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
don't know what he wants. It is premature, but I am saying that I | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
think the question is a very good one, because that is understanding | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
the nature of what we are confronting. We need to become more | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
sophisticated. Country that was attacked in the first place often | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
has an instinctive strike back straightaway. We should do it | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
together, as the gentleman says, as a European union. You must all | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
please come on the panel, keep your remarks a bit more taut, because | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
otherwise nobody in the audience will get a chance to speak and half | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
the panel will not get a chance to speak. I agree we need to be | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
sophisticated, and I worry about the language of war. I get why President | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
Hollande talk that way, I get his desire for vengeance and I would | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
probably say the same in his position. But war is traditionally | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
between two states. Why give these cowardly women or is the prestige | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
and status they desperately crave as warriors and soldiers, and which | :30:15. | :30:25. | |
they do not deserve. -- why give these cowards the prestige. In the | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
month of Remembrance Sunday, I find it astonishing that we are not | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
thinking of the human cost to UK troops, and the fact that we know | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
after the last two war is the amount of damage it did to our troops, the | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
number of lives lost. Last week, 8000 veterans that served this | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
country were homeless. When we are talking about long-term strategy, we | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
need to think about how we are going to deal with that, our mental health | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
resources, supporting to deal with that, our mental health | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
the streets. It is appalling, the way we treat them. Are you saying | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
that no act of war is legitimate for whatever purpose? Not at all. I am | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
saying if we are putting our troops on the ground in a vulnerable | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
position we need to not only think about the cost to civilian life in | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
that country, but the cost to our troops and public services and how | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
we are going to support them, which we are failing to do at the moment. | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
APPLAUSE Politicians all the way up to our | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
previous Prime Minister Tony Blair, commentators, experts have all | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
acknowledged that commentators, experts have all | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
has partly led to the unrest in the region and even | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
has partly led to the unrest in the bodies. I am concerned, as a citizen | :31:48. | :31:49. | |
of this country, that any bodies. I am concerned, as a citizen | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
action will lead to bodies. I am concerned, as a citizen | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
into Isis and more unrest in the region. How can we avoid that? We | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
are suppressing lessons learned from Iraq with the delay in the Chilcot | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
Inquiry. I was very much against the invasion of Iraq and if I had been | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
in Parliament I would not have voted for it. But in the extraordinary | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
circumstances which we are in, we have never known anything like Isis. | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
It is not just about what they did in Paris, or what they did with the | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
aeroplane or in Baghdad. It is also the fact that they behead people. | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
They murder people because they are gay. They are beyond barbarity. We | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
have never known anything like this before. There are other things, this | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
is not in isolation. Do you know before. There are other things, this | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
that Saudi Arabia beheads people and we are quite close allies with Saudi | :32:48. | :32:49. | |
Arabia? APPLAUSE | :32:50. | :32:58. | |
Hang on, that sounds like apologies. They don't go onto the streets of | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
Paris and shoot people in the way that they did. Don't try and make | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
out... You said that headings, I am just pointing out. You are just | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
making a cheap point, this is beyond cheap political points. | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
making a cheap point, this is beyond cheap point, it goes to the heart of | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
our policy in the Middle East. Re-evaluate what the | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
our policy in the Middle East. in the Middle East. Are we taking | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
the right stance in the various conflicts? Right now, a | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
the right stance in the various Arab countries are bombing Yemen, | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
the poorest country in the Middle East, and we are helping them do | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
that. You are just throwing stuff into muddy the waters. Don't have a | :33:41. | :33:51. | |
spat. What are you trying to say? Only people in Paris matter? I am | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
not saying that and you know that. You are better than these cheap | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
points. I would go back to Simon's original question about whether this | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
is exactly what they want us to do and I would say no, because they | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
would not be able to withstand the military might of a united force. | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
The trouble with what is happening now is that it is very this jointed. | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
The French are doing something, the Russians are doing something, the | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
Brits are not doing anything on Syrian territory. The idea that if | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
Brits are not doing anything on we leave them alone they will leave | :34:25. | :34:25. | |
us alone is really not going to work and is naive. I will tell you why, | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
because as was pointed out earlier, there have been seven possible | :34:32. | :34:33. | |
attacks foiled in this country just this year. That is a terrifying | :34:34. | :34:43. | |
thought. If we do try and boost Rape Crisis, we are going to kill a lot | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
of innocent civilians at the same time. That is going to breed more | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
discontent which will lead to other groups. We may get rid of Isis, but | :34:51. | :34:59. | |
another group will grow. We need to keep a sense of proportion. You keep | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
saying this is an unprecedented threat. This is quite untrue. In the | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
2nd and First World War, this country faced far graver | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
challengers. Isis is a disease, and unpleasant disease, but this is not | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
an existential threat. The one thing that will not help us is if | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
politicians in senior positions, such as you, grossly exaggerate. | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
Isis is not an ex is then shall threaten our society. We keep our | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
nerve, act sensibly and do not make things worse by military action. We | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
will see this through and I'm quite sure we will prevail. | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
APPLAUSE I wanted to address the point that | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
this country has faced extraordinary threaten the First World War and the | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
2nd World War but I would argue that this threat is just as strong. We | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
are not going to be invaded and occupied. One person at a time. | :35:52. | :36:01. | |
Natalie, please. I think we are facing a very, very scary | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
phenomenon, which is a combination of territories controlled today, in | :36:05. | :36:14. | |
Syria and Iraq, controlled by Isis, networks that feed into Europe, that | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
exist. There are Isis cells in Europe. Then there is the ideology | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
of Isis, which spreads online and which tries to target young Muslims | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
in Europe, but not just young Muslims. We know this is a | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
completely new phenomenon. They want to cast themselves as a state, and | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
they have some of the attributes of a state because they do have hard | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
military equipment, heavy military equipment, and they claim even to | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
produce their own money. We are dealing with a phenomenon which is | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
quite new. The point is not to ask whether the West or Europe hasn't | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
made mistakes in the Middle East, of course it has made mistakes in the | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
Middle East. But that is not the question today. The question today | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
is how to get it right and how to understand that the new guy | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
mentioned is that this thing going on in the Middle East is now coming | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
to us. -- the new dimensional is that this thing is coming to us. | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
That is the new phenomenon. It is not quite the first time. There have | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
been bombings in London and Madrid in the last decade or so, but the | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
magnitude of what has happened in Paris forces us to get it right this | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
time. I think we can only do that if we work together and if we identify | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
that the main factor that has grown Isis these last years has been the | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
massacres, the massacres carried out of Sunni populations by the Assad | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
regime. In Syria, that has been the main reason for the growth of Isis. | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
I am going to move on to a slightly different question. Amy Anderson. | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
How are British citizens supposed to feel protected when Europe has | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
welcomed jihadis back into our world as apparent refugees. How is Britain | :38:02. | :38:10. | |
supposed to feel protected when Europe has welcomed jihadis back as | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
apparent refugees? Well, I think the original response of Europeans was | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
very, very admirable, because the pictures that we saw, and actually | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
the Independent newspaper was the first to publish the picture of the | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
little boy washed up on shore, the fact that Europeans welcomed | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
refugees with open arms was very, very commendable. That said, with | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
recent events and what has happened in Paris, I think we have two review | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
how we accept and what we do with the incoming refugees, and how they | :38:43. | :38:51. | |
are accepted, and not be, I suppose, well, not free for all. I would say | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
we just need to have some sort of controls and see how we can accept | :38:58. | :39:06. | |
them. Mehdi Hasan. With regard to the question, in France and Paris, | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
as far as I am aware, there were no refugees involved, every perpetrator | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
was an EU citizen. There has been a fake Syrian passport recovered, but | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
no evidence of a refugee involved. You know what, I don't care. Let's | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
say there were eight refugees involved. Are we going to punish 5 | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
million Syrian refugees because five Syrians were involved in an act of | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
terror? What steps would you take to try and make sure that among the | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
people, 20,000 is the target in Britain, according to the Prime | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
Minister... We have taken 216 on the UN scheme. What would you make -- | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
how would you make sure that didn't include... What would you do about | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
it? The United States government already has intensive vetting | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
procedures for refugees in resettlement schemes. If you had | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
more than open door on refugees you could vet them better, if they do | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
not come on rickety boats, which is harder to deal with. But if you | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
leave them in overcrowded camps on the borders of Syria, they are much | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
more prime targets for Isil recruitment than if they come here | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
and we show the world there is no clash between the West and Islam. Do | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
you agree? I don't think there is evidence yet, as has been said. The | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
thing to stress is that Isis, Isil, they want us to turn our backs on | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
the few gees. It makes us better than them, the fact that we do | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
welcome people in. -- refugees. What could we do about it? Of course, | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
there needs to be better control. In the summer, Greek authorities were | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
overwhelmed and could not process people arriving on the shores of | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
Europe, so they were not properly getting the details down so that the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
information could be shared across Europe with intelligence services, | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
so gaps were therein the system. We need a much better system across | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
Europe. I think the time has come to look again at the Schengen | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
agreement, the idea that Europe can have no internal borders at all. It | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
is wonderful, it is idealistic, but I think it is basically designed for | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
a different age than the one that we are now in. We need better control | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
because that better protect vulnerable people as well. Your | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
characterisation in your question I don't think was fair. However, it | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
would seem one of the individuals who went back to Belgium had been in | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
Syria. That was actually mostly my point. We have found out obviously | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
that the people that committed the Paris atrocities were EU citizens. | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
However, what happened is they went to Syria, committed further | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
atrocities, but they were not picked up and they came back. You have a | :41:50. | :41:57. | |
really good point. And that, bottom line, we should know who these | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
people are. Your point is strong and the point is that other member | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
states who do not have a history of dealing with terrorism, such as | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
Belgium, perhaps don't have sophisticated systems to monitor | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
people. The characteristics of this terrible attack was that it was an | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
attack planned and coordinated in a different member state from the one | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
in which it was carried out. That tells us there need to be better | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
sharing of information about people coming in and out. Such as a carload | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
of explosives guns... Exactly, better checks at the Channel Tunnel. | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
I don't think that there are the same border checks there. We need to | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
look at our procedures across Europe because quite frankly there are | :42:43. | :42:43. | |
gaps. OK, a question very much on this | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
point OK, a question very much on this | :42:49. | :43:08. | |
intelligence is where it should be. OK, a question very much on this | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
We shouldn't confuse refugees and all the right things we are doing by | :43:14. | :43:14. | |
them and what has all the right things we are doing by | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
passports taken away from all the right things we are doing by | :43:22. | :43:30. | |
they couldn't go and join terror groups notely in countries like | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
Syria. I was astonished at this figure. Nearly 100,000 figure were | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
refused entry into Brinton grounds they were a float to our national | :43:39. | :43:49. | |
security -- 100,000 people were refused entry into Britain. What | :43:50. | :43:57. | |
about the police though, Anna? Andy I will quite happily deal with the | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
question about the police. You are about to cut the police aren't you, | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
25% cuts? No. APPLAUSE | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
You made a speech where you said it was doable and I would like you to | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
agree that it was doable to make cuts of between 5 and up 2010%. Do | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
you still stand by that, yes or no? Well, an narks I'm taking a very | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
responsible position because you are planning 25% cuts. That was what | :44:26. | :44:34. | |
George Osborne at the Budget said, unprotected department budgets at | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
the department. Would you take it in turns to talk and not talk over each | :44:39. | :44:40. | |
other. Wait a minute. turns to talk and not talk over each | :44:41. | :44:48. | |
turns. I have said on advice from the police, they | :44:49. | :44:48. | |
turns. I have said on advice from over 5 years is difficult but | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
doable. If you go beyond that 52010%, it debts more difficult. | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
Going into doubling figures, it's very dangerous. I've learnt | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
something and I've been made aware of a letter that's been sent to the | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
Home Secretary, commissioned by COBRA last weekend when the question | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
was asked, what are the resource implication for the police in the | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
wake of Paris and the let's gone back which says what I've just said, | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
that it's doable to do 5% over the next five years, if you cut the | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
budget between 5 and 10 it's difficult but go beyond that it's | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
dangerous. That would take thousands of police officers off the beat if | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
you do that. I'm saying to you, I'm supporting the Government in many | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
ways in terms of what you are doing. I support what they are dog on the | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
investigatory powers Bill. You have got to listen to the police and drop | :45:39. | :45:45. | |
these plans. You didn't answer the question. I did answer the question. | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
Do you stand by your statement that you made - and now you are | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
interrupting me - do you stand by your statement that 5-10... I stand | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
by my statement. I won't interrupt you. Let me tell you what I said. | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
Look, this is getting silly. Wait a moment. Look, we've got serious | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
things to talk about. APPLAUSE | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
In the House of Commons, there's room for a lot of political tit for | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
cat, we are talking about serious things here. You are saying that a | :46:17. | :46:28. | |
5% cut 5 is doable, 5-10 is difficult, over 10 is dangerous. Is | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
that clear? Your point is? In a speech Andy said... I've just | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
repeated it, Anna. Let mayor finish, for goodness sake. Come on? In a | :46:39. | :46:45. | |
speech, he said 5-10% was doable. That's what he said already. I've | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
said it again. I'm going to leave this. Can I answer the gentleman's | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
question? Yes, I'm going to leave the point. He's changed his mind. | :46:59. | :47:08. | |
France expanded their surveillance power after Charlie Hebdo, please | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
let's not assume that mass surveillance is a magic bullet. Some | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
of the most repressive countries, Saudi, Iran, China, Russia vrks had | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
mass casualty attacks. Every time there is an attack, we increase and | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
get more counterterror laws, we don't care about civil liberties, | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
the terrorist want to turn open society into closed society. | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
Max Hastings, same rule force you? -- rules for you? We have to | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
remember that a range of plots has been frustrated in the last year, | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
ten years, which are overwhelmingly due to electronic surveillance. | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
Where do we draw the line? What is obvious, our parents and | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
grandparents had to defend themselves with Spitfires. It's | :47:59. | :48:00. | |
obvious that when we are dealing with a threat of this seriousness, | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
and it is serious enough that we have to review at every level, | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
including the police and intelligence and electronics experts | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
of what we do. It must be a proportionate response and we have | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
to keep our head. Listening to the representatives of the two main | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
parties arguing about police funding is deeply depressing. | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
APPLAUSE All right. | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
I want to take a question from Emily Otvos, please? Do Muslims have a | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
responsibility for controlling and preventing radicalisation? Do | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
Muslims take a responsibility or have a responsibility for | :48:44. | :48:45. | |
controlling and preventing radicalisation? Absolutely. I think | :48:46. | :48:56. | |
we need to hear more Muslims speaking out about what is happening | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
against Islamic state, its policy and I really hope we'll hear more of | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
that. The other point to make is that the coalition I talked about | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
earlier has to include Muslim countries because that's absolutely | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
crucial a part of war against Islamic state. I think that is a | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
worrying statement because I think if we hold, after an event like | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
Paris, if we hold all Muslims somehow responsible or we ask them | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
that they need to somehow feel a special responsibility for it, we | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
are stigmatising huge communities. Hear, hear. That is what Isis wants. | :49:33. | :49:39. | |
I didn't say that, I said I would like to hear more moderate Muslims | :49:40. | :49:46. | |
voicing their opinions. What about a march of moderates? That implies | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
that Muslims are especially responsible. I have nothing to do | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
with Isis, my daughter doesn't, my 77-year-old father doesn't. In fact, | :49:55. | :50:05. | |
last week two of the attackers in Paris were guys who owned a bar and | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
sold a bar six weeks before the attacks, not my definition of devout | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
Muslim. Should I ask bar owners to go on a march. All right, you have | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
made the point, thank you Mehdi. Thank you. Please, I know you are | :50:19. | :50:25. | |
getting angry. I'm not angry at all, you are. I'm not. I want to be able | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
to hear what everybody is saying. You, there? I was the one that asked | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
the question and I don't think Muslims have any more right than | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
anybody else to take responsibility for preventing radicalisation. The | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
Isis militants come in and destroy our Western democracy and, as a | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
society, we all out of basic level of humanities have a responsibility | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
for preventing radicalisation. It happens in schools, every day | :50:53. | :50:54. | |
communities, we all need to take responsibility for this and, saying | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
that Muslims alone should take responsibility just encourages | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
Islamophobia. The man in the third row, fourth in? I'm a teacher and I | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
take your point about Muslims. In Luton, we want to talk about the | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
mosques, students, we have talked to them. We argue that we are white | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
English teachers, how the hell are we supposed to know who they are. We | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
don't have a clue. I hope the mosques would know more than we | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
would. Andy Burnham? Well, I think politicians particularly knead toe | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
take great care in making statements of the kind that you are objecting | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
to. Earlier in the summer, the Prime Minister made a speech where he said | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
parts of the Muslim community were quietly condoning extremism. Now, | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
that alienates at a stroke the very people that you need to be working | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
with together hand in hand to deal with the issues, so I take the point | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
entirely where you are coming from. However, and this is to give a nod | :52:06. | :52:14. | |
to Evgeny, Sadiq Khan, one of the most prominent Muslim politicians in | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
the country, has said prominent Muslims should do more to take on | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
the cancer of extremism - his words. Coming from him, that is an | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
important statement and people do want to hear that, but it's about, | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
as you are saying, everybody, a cross community, it's everybody's | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
issue. It's not a religion, it's a perversion of Islam, as we have | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
said. Often it's because communities are disenfranchised where people | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
feel like they are second class citizens where they don't get the | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
same opportunities in life. There are deep-seated causes and we need a | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
more sophisticated response. If I could say one thing to add to | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
Sadiq's words, which is that they should stop burying their heads in | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
the sand and speak out against this cancer. The Muslim Council of | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
Britain... Anna Soubry? Every single leading cleric and leader of Muslim | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
communities came out and signed a statement condemning what happened | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
in Paris and in other terror attacks by Isis and it's really sad it | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
didn't get the publicity it deserved. | :53:22. | :53:23. | |
APPLAUSE This idea that the Muslim community | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
is not doing its bit is not true and I think it's worth remembering, | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
actually more Muslims died in Paris than actually committed those | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
atrocities. APPLAUSE | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
Max Hastings? One thing we haven't said to far this evening, I for one, | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
I doubt if anyone else in this hall would disagree, I'm absolutely | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
confident that we are going to win this, although what's happening is | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
horrendous, Isis is a death cult borne out of the deep frustration in | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
extreme Muslim circles that it has nothing to offer. All the | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
hard-working, sensible law-abiding Muslims around the world who're | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
getting on with their lives, it has nothing to offer the world at large. | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
Whereas communism and fascism pose more serious threats, we ought to, | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
as we approach the end of the programme, there's every reason to | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
feel an optimism despite this ghastly event in Paris and despite | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
whatever may happen here, we are stronger than they are because our | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
values are income braibly more valuable than theirs. Plawzth | :54:31. | :54:43. | |
APPLAUSE -- income braibly more valuable than | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
theirs. APPLAUSE | :54:50. | :54:49. | |
This is not a war from APPLAUSE | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
necessarily Christians or the West, it's also a war on Muslims. Millions | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
of refugees. The woman in the second row from the back? Hi. I would like | :55:02. | :55:09. | |
to ask Evgeny, instead of asking Muslims to | :55:10. | :55:09. | |
to ask Evgeny, instead of asking shouldn't he perhaps ask the media | :55:10. | :55:16. | |
to take responsibility for propagating this afilliation between | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
Muslims and Isis when actually that should feeds into Islamophobia and | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
alienates Muslims? APPLAUSE | :55:28. | :55:29. | |
You have to speak for the whole media, not just your particular bit? | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
I shall. I'll say the war being waged against us is a different war, | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
as Max rightly pointed out. It's waged on three fronts; on the | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
ground, information war which you mentioned and the third is | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
ideological war and you are right, it's a very, very fine balance and I | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
know that editors that workfor my newspapers and other newspapers have | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
to come up against a very difficult decision on a daily basis on whether | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
to give coverage to particular atrocities being committed. But | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
where do you draw the line and stop showing the public, where do you | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
stop thoughing what is happening, for example when Stephen Sotlov was | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
beheaded, the Independent took a decision not to put Jihadi John on | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
the front-page in his boiler suit but a picture of Stephen Sotlov when | :56:23. | :56:30. | |
he was free. What is your objection? A lot of what matters is not what | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
you show, but how you show it. I take objection to the fact that we | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
refer to the terrorist group as imlambic state. At what point are | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
they acting -- Islamic state. If I call myself a zebra, do you then | :56:46. | :56:54. | |
refer to me as a zebra? You on the third row a quick point if | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
refer to me as a zebra? You on the would? We are a British society and | :57:00. | :57:01. | |
Government. We would? We are a British society and | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
to Isis and others. We have programmes running successfully | :57:07. | :57:07. | |
where we programmes running successfully | :57:08. | :57:08. | |
we undermine, challenge programmes running successfully | :57:09. | :57:18. | |
this awful dogma, this programmes running successfully | :57:19. | :57:20. | |
that's been and said to be in some way part of Islam, it's not, it's | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
completely contrary and we make that argument and it's done by brilliant | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
people who often do it voluntarily within the Muslim community. That is | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
such an important way to stop this from happening in the very first | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
place. This is not going to be a short-term thing, it's going to take | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
a long time. On that note, we have had an hour, aired a number of | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
issues but we can't go on longer but I hope some of the things we have | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
said have been interesting and helpful to those watching. Thank you | :57:50. | :57:51. | |
to the audience for taking helpful to those watching. Thank you | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
to the audience for taking part. We are in Manchester next week and | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
Birmingham the week after that. If you would like to come either place, | :57:58. | :58:00. | |
Manchester or Birmingham, it would be good to see you. You can apply to | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
the website or to the number on the screen there. | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
If you are listening on Five Live, as many do, as you know, the debate | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
will go on in a lively form on Question Time extra time, but here, | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
my thanks to our panel and again to you our audience for coming here for | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
this special programme. Until next Thursday from Question Time, good | :58:23. | :58:24. | |
night. | :58:25. | :58:26. |