Browse content similar to 17/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good evening. This is Slough and this is Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
And a big welcome, whether you're watching, | 0:00:12 | 0:00:15 | |
listening on the radio, | 0:00:15 | 0:00:17 | |
and, of course, to our audience here, and our panel. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:19 | |
Our panel tonight is the Conservative MP for North East Somerset, | 0:00:19 | 0:00:23 | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg, | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
the former Tory MP who defected to Ukip | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
and then lost Rochester at the last election, Mark Reckless, | 0:00:28 | 0:00:32 | |
Labour's Emily Thornberry, who came unstuck in Rochester, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:36 | |
sacked by Ed Miliband for tweeting a picture of a white van, | 0:00:36 | 0:00:39 | |
and who's now on Jeremy Corbyn's front-bench team | 0:00:39 | 0:00:42 | |
as Shadow Employment Minister, | 0:00:42 | 0:00:43 | |
and one of the SNP's new MPs | 0:00:43 | 0:00:45 | |
who leads for the party on business matters, Hannah Bardell, | 0:00:45 | 0:00:49 | |
and the journalist and broadcaster Piers Morgan. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:55 | 0:00:57 | |
And thank you very much. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
As ever, if you want to join in the debate from home, | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
you can do so - text or tweet... | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
Oh, and we are on Facebook, too, now, | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
so you can "like" us, if you like. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:26 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:01:26 | 0:01:27 | |
Our first question tonight, from Kevin Chapman, please. Kevin Chapman. | 0:01:27 | 0:01:31 | |
Even if David Cameron was to get agreement in Europe, | 0:01:31 | 0:01:35 | |
would his changes go far enough for a vote to stay? | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
As they all sit round the table having dinner in Brussels. | 0:01:39 | 0:01:42 | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:44 | |
No. | 0:01:44 | 0:01:45 | |
I think that what has been asked for is fundamentally trivial, | 0:01:45 | 0:01:49 | |
that three parts of it - | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
the EU to be competitive is something the EU wants to do anyway. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:56 | |
The euro ins and outs - well, the only vote they've had of this kind, | 0:01:56 | 0:02:00 | |
the other euro outs didn't support us anyway, | 0:02:00 | 0:02:03 | |
so there's not much to be had in that. | 0:02:03 | 0:02:05 | |
The free movement of people... | 0:02:05 | 0:02:06 | |
Taking that out of the preamble is entirely irrelevant. | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
If the whole text of the treaty creates... | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
Er, the ever-closer union, sorry, of people. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:14 | |
Just taking it out of the preamble doesn't change a thing. | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
The preamble is not the legal essence of the text, | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
the main bulk is. | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
So that leaves you with this thing on benefits. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
Now, first of all, experts have said - | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
the Office of Budgetary Responsibility said, | 0:02:28 | 0:02:31 | |
and the Treasury Select Committee, | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
that this would not make much difference to the numbers who came. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
Secondly, I think it's a dreadful way to think of brave people | 0:02:35 | 0:02:39 | |
who move halfway across a continent to come and work here | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
that they're simply coming to grub for benefits. They're not. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:45 | |
They're coming here to change their lives fundamentally. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:48 | |
They're taking a risk, | 0:02:48 | 0:02:49 | |
they're leaving their families, their friends, | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
and they're doing something at great sacrifice | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
to improve their life and the lives of their families. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
To say they're doing it because | 0:02:58 | 0:02:59 | |
they're little better than benefits cheats | 0:02:59 | 0:03:02 | |
is, I think, a really awful view of the people who come here. | 0:03:02 | 0:03:05 | |
I think they come here... | 0:03:05 | 0:03:07 | |
And so, to conclude, | 0:03:10 | 0:03:12 | |
I think we need fundamental change | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
on the free movement of people. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:17 | |
We need to control our borders | 0:03:17 | 0:03:19 | |
so that we are fair in our treatment of people | 0:03:19 | 0:03:22 | |
who come here from India | 0:03:22 | 0:03:23 | |
as opposed to people who come here from Bulgaria. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
I don't see why we have this open-door policy for the EU, | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
but incredibly strict regulations on anybody else. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:34 | |
So I think what is being asked for is fundamentally trivial, | 0:03:34 | 0:03:38 | |
and we need to be asking for more. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:40 | |
And if we don't even get what we're currently asking for | 0:03:40 | 0:03:42 | |
the whole renegotiation is a waste of time. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:45 | |
So when you said it was... | 0:03:45 | 0:03:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
When you said what Cameron was asking for was thin gruel, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:52 | |
you were declaring that you will vote out? | 0:03:52 | 0:03:55 | |
Had the Prime Minister gone for a proper renegotiation, | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
I could have been persuaded to vote to stay in. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:01 | |
But if we stay in now, we are voting to join a full, federal Europe. | 0:04:01 | 0:04:05 | |
We are staying on the pathway towards an integrated EU. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:10 | |
That is what they are doing across Europe. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
We are just a little bit behind, | 0:04:13 | 0:04:16 | |
but that is the route map. | 0:04:16 | 0:04:18 | |
We need to pull out of that | 0:04:18 | 0:04:19 | |
-and re-establish our own control of our own affairs. -Piers Morgan. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:23 | |
Piers. | 0:04:25 | 0:04:27 | |
I agree with some of that. | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
David Cameron has proven to be an absolutely atrocious negotiator. | 0:04:29 | 0:04:32 | |
I wouldn't trust him to negotiate my purchase | 0:04:32 | 0:04:35 | |
of a cheese and pickle sandwich, | 0:04:35 | 0:04:37 | |
never mind our position in Europe! | 0:04:37 | 0:04:40 | |
What's wrong with his negotiating style? | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
Like he said, the gentleman to my left - | 0:04:43 | 0:04:45 | |
he asked for very little, he's not even going to get that. | 0:04:45 | 0:04:48 | |
It's humiliating. | 0:04:48 | 0:04:50 | |
He will come back with a bit of paper in his hand and say, | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
"Great news! I've managed to establish | 0:04:53 | 0:04:55 | |
"that English people can carry on speaking English. | 0:04:55 | 0:04:59 | |
"It's a huge victory and I'm a triumph." | 0:04:59 | 0:05:01 | |
And that's basically what this comes down to. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:03 | |
He will have achieved nothing | 0:05:03 | 0:05:05 | |
even if he achieves what he's trying to achieve. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
So I think it's very embarrassing for our country. | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
I think he has let us down in the negotiating room. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:14 | |
Clearly, the Germans and the French in particular look at him... | 0:05:14 | 0:05:17 | |
You know, in a poker game, they've called his bluff. | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
And, unfortunately, they hold all the aces. | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
And so... Look, I'm a European. | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
We're all... Most of us here, I'd imagine, are Europeans. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:28 | |
As John Major said the other day on the Today show, | 0:05:28 | 0:05:31 | |
which I thought was a perfect way of describing this, | 0:05:31 | 0:05:34 | |
it's the worst possible time, | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
isn't it, for England to go back to being Little England, | 0:05:36 | 0:05:40 | |
detached from the European Union | 0:05:40 | 0:05:42 | |
when we're facing this chronic migration issue, | 0:05:42 | 0:05:45 | |
which has to be resolved, | 0:05:45 | 0:05:46 | |
and we're also facing the worst terror threat | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
that we have faced in my lifetime. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:51 | |
Is it not the issue as well, though, | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
that he is doing the two at the same time. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:54 | |
That instead of standing up to Ukip | 0:05:54 | 0:05:56 | |
and standing up to the Euro-sceptics | 0:05:56 | 0:05:58 | |
and saying, "Actually, no, | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
"we're going to have a negotiation first," | 0:06:00 | 0:06:02 | |
he's trying to do that and come home and placate people at home | 0:06:02 | 0:06:05 | |
with an EU referendum. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
He's trying to achieve a pyrrhic victory, | 0:06:07 | 0:06:10 | |
which - even if he achieves it - as Jacob said, is meaningless, | 0:06:10 | 0:06:12 | |
but I don't think he'll even achieve that. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:15 | |
Hannah, what do you think he should have done? What should he be doing? | 0:06:15 | 0:06:18 | |
I think he should've been making the positive case for Europe, | 0:06:18 | 0:06:20 | |
negotiating on that basis. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
Because he's gone to Europe | 0:06:22 | 0:06:24 | |
and just really annoyed everybody over there. | 0:06:24 | 0:06:27 | |
Because they know he's back home trying to... | 0:06:27 | 0:06:29 | |
He's essentially trying to face both ways. | 0:06:29 | 0:06:31 | |
There are many, many positive aspects to remaining within Europe. | 0:06:31 | 0:06:35 | |
It brings huge business, particularly in Scotland, | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
we have...and across the UK, | 0:06:38 | 0:06:40 | |
billions of pounds of investment reliant upon the EU. | 0:06:40 | 0:06:43 | |
There is a positive case to be made for that. | 0:06:43 | 0:06:46 | |
But what he has not done is made that positive case. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
And I'm not normally likely to agree with Piers, but I do... | 0:06:49 | 0:06:54 | |
Really? Why? | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
-We were getting on very well in the Green Room. -We were, yeah. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
What's the matter with you? | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
But...there is a point here that he's doing it in a way | 0:07:01 | 0:07:03 | |
that is with one hand tied behind his back. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:06 | |
He should've stood up, been stronger. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:08 | |
Do you think the result will be | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
that England votes "out"? | 0:07:10 | 0:07:12 | |
If you go by the polls just now, | 0:07:12 | 0:07:14 | |
we could be in the position that England votes to come out | 0:07:14 | 0:07:17 | |
and then the devolved nations, other nations of the United Kingdom, | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
including Scotland, are taken out of Europe against its will. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
We should have a quad-lock. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:26 | |
We should be in a position that those other nations get a say. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:30 | |
And Alan Johnston has said he could see a reason why people would be | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
particularly upset in a devolved nation. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:36 | |
And Nicola Sturgeon said in effect there'd be | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
another referendum from Scotland if Britain pulled out. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
She's said that we would look at the conditions | 0:07:41 | 0:07:44 | |
under which any future referendum would be held. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:46 | |
But it could be... You have to go by what your people feel. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
And, ultimately, at the moment, | 0:07:50 | 0:07:52 | |
the majority of people in Scotland are pro staying in Europe. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:55 | |
OK. Let's come to some members of the audience, then I'll come to you. | 0:07:55 | 0:07:58 | |
Man in the front here. Yes. | 0:07:58 | 0:08:00 | |
What I want to know, and the British people want to know, | 0:08:00 | 0:08:03 | |
is will there ever be a situation | 0:08:03 | 0:08:05 | |
where David Cameron can renegotiate a free movement of people? | 0:08:05 | 0:08:09 | |
Emily Thornberry, what do you think? | 0:08:09 | 0:08:12 | |
I don't think you can renegotiate a free movement of people. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:15 | |
I think the European Union is based on the idea | 0:08:15 | 0:08:17 | |
of free movement of people and goods. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:21 | |
I think that's kind of fundamental to it. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
There's a Schengen agreement within Europe | 0:08:23 | 0:08:26 | |
which means that people can move freely around Europe | 0:08:26 | 0:08:28 | |
without needing to show their passports. | 0:08:28 | 0:08:30 | |
Now, clearly, if Europe are going to keep that | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
on the Continent of Europe, | 0:08:33 | 0:08:35 | |
they need to do a great deal more in sharing security information. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:38 | |
Because you can't have people moving from Brussels to France | 0:08:38 | 0:08:42 | |
and the security services not passing information on. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:44 | |
So it seems to me that they need to do a lot more work on Schengen. | 0:08:44 | 0:08:47 | |
We're not part of Schengen. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:49 | |
You still have to show a passport to come into Britain. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:51 | |
But, nevertheless, the EU is based on that and that is how it is. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
But I just don't think that we are in a position as a country | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
to start cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world. | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
As the world gets smaller, | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
as we get closer to one another, | 0:09:03 | 0:09:05 | |
I think the idea of Britain sailing off into the Atlantic, | 0:09:05 | 0:09:08 | |
and losing...possibly losing Scotland | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
and becoming Little Englanders | 0:09:10 | 0:09:12 | |
is something which deeply worries me. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:14 | |
I think that David Cameron is playing games | 0:09:14 | 0:09:17 | |
with the future of this country. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:19 | |
I think he's doing that in order to be able to keep... | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
to ride the many-headed tiger that is the Tory Party! | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
I think there are Conservatives who will never be placated. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
Some might be, but he's prepared to have a gamble, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
and it's with our future. | 0:09:33 | 0:09:34 | |
And, actually, part of being in Europe is about jobs. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
It's about growth. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:38 | |
It's about investment. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:40 | |
In Slough, there are more, I think, international HQs | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
than in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland put together. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:46 | |
Slough is an internationalist place | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
and actually it benefits from being part of the European Union. | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
We have to be realistic about this. I'm not saying it's perfect. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:55 | |
I think there's lots of things that should be changed. | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
And what I would do is say that we are part of Europe, | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
we are Europeans, and we want to get together with other people | 0:10:01 | 0:10:04 | |
who think the same way and be able to change it. | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
For example, with state aid. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:08 | |
If you want to spend state money | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
you need to make sure you get as much bang for your buck as possible. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
So if you're having a contract with an employer, | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
you can say, "Right, we're going to give you a government contract | 0:10:15 | 0:10:18 | |
"but we expect you to have a certain number of apprentices, | 0:10:18 | 0:10:21 | |
"a certain number of local people, | 0:10:21 | 0:10:23 | |
"we expect you to train people up." | 0:10:23 | 0:10:25 | |
At the moment, the European Union rules are very hazy about that. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:28 | |
We need to be negotiating things | 0:10:28 | 0:10:30 | |
like that for the sake of the country. | 0:10:30 | 0:10:32 | |
Let's go back to where we are, | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
with the negotiations going on today and tomorrow. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:36 | |
The man up there in spectacles, what do you think? | 0:10:36 | 0:10:39 | |
To go back to your earlier point - | 0:10:39 | 0:10:41 | |
couldn't we be like Switzerland and be successful outside the EU? | 0:10:41 | 0:10:45 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
You, sir, in the front. Yes. | 0:10:48 | 0:10:50 | |
All the defence of Europe is a defence of the economy. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:54 | |
What about the defence of society? | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
I think that's what people are more concerned about. | 0:10:56 | 0:10:58 | |
Can you go a bit further? Explain what you mean? | 0:10:58 | 0:11:01 | |
If you talk to older people - older than even I am - | 0:11:01 | 0:11:03 | |
they are very, very concerned about the changes | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
that are happening to our country. | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
Now, time and again the argument is based around the economy. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
It's not based around British society itself | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
and the values that Britain stands for. | 0:11:14 | 0:11:16 | |
So the... Immigration... | 0:11:16 | 0:11:18 | |
I... The implication is, | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
immigration is the thing you need to control? Is that what you mean? | 0:11:20 | 0:11:23 | |
I don't personally believe it's something we need to control, | 0:11:23 | 0:11:26 | |
but I do believe that that is a major concern in our society. | 0:11:26 | 0:11:28 | |
And you in the front row. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:30 | |
I agree with what the panel members who've spoken already have said | 0:11:30 | 0:11:34 | |
but I really think David Cameron is alienating a lot of other nations | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
in what he's going to do tonight. | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
I think there's a lot of things wrong with the EU, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
as all the members of the panel have said, | 0:11:42 | 0:11:45 | |
and what he's doing is actually going backwards, at the moment. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
He really needs to be trying to build those relationships | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
in a means to make the EU better. | 0:11:51 | 0:11:52 | |
-I think that really needs to happen. -Before I come to Mark Reckless, | 0:11:52 | 0:11:56 | |
does anybody here approve of what the Prime Minister's doing, | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
or trying to achieve in Brussels? | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
Would speak up for it? Yes, you, sir. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
-Wow, one hand! -Or two. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:06 | |
Well, it's best to be alone than have no representation whatsoever. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:10 | |
-PIERS MORGAN LAUGHS -Quite right. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
I certainly would agree with him, | 0:12:13 | 0:12:16 | |
because it is not an easy task for him. | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
He is trying his utmost, his very best | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
to come up with whatever good is required for this country. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:29 | |
In that respect I would say, yes, he is doing his best. | 0:12:29 | 0:12:36 | |
And do you think the vote will go in favour... The question was - | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
if he gets what he's going to try and get, | 0:12:40 | 0:12:44 | |
that will get Britain voting to stay in. Do you agree with that? | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
I would still want to see a referendum, nonetheless. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
Mark Reckless. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
He's virtually asked for nothing | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
and it's not even clear he's going to get that. | 0:12:57 | 0:13:00 | |
I'm sure at the last moment he'll bring some sort of rabbit | 0:13:00 | 0:13:02 | |
out of the hat and all his fellow leaders | 0:13:02 | 0:13:05 | |
and some of the media will big up what he's supposedly achieved. | 0:13:05 | 0:13:09 | |
But I think what David Cameron has shown with this renegotiation | 0:13:09 | 0:13:12 | |
is not what he wanted, of pretending that somehow | 0:13:12 | 0:13:15 | |
the European Union was going to be better in the future | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
rather than voting on what we know it to be. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
But he has shown just how little influence this country has. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:24 | |
Since he was elected as Prime Minister he has voted 40 times | 0:13:24 | 0:13:29 | |
against measures in the Council of Ministers in the European Union. | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
And every single one of those 40 times he has been outvoted. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
And now, at the time when our leverage in Europe should be greater | 0:13:37 | 0:13:41 | |
than any other, when we're about to have this referendum, | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
and the polls are so close - even then, rather than actually | 0:13:44 | 0:13:49 | |
giving even the minimum that he's asking for, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
Europe is saying, "No, that's not the way we do it, | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
"it's not in our interest. | 0:13:54 | 0:13:56 | |
"We want to go in this different direction." | 0:13:56 | 0:13:58 | |
I think we need to recognise that if other countries... | 0:13:58 | 0:14:02 | |
the European Union wants to be this ever-closer union, | 0:14:02 | 0:14:06 | |
wants to become 27 or 28 countries that become essentially one | 0:14:06 | 0:14:10 | |
for the key tasks of a state, then that is not for us. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:15 | |
I think there's no shame in that. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:16 | |
We should have friendly relations with the European Union, | 0:14:16 | 0:14:19 | |
we should have free trade with them, but we don't want to spend | 0:14:19 | 0:14:23 | |
£55 million a day to have 27 other countries | 0:14:23 | 0:14:25 | |
make laws for us that we could much better make for ourselves. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
We need to lift our eyes to the horizon | 0:14:29 | 0:14:31 | |
and trade freely with the whole world, | 0:14:31 | 0:14:34 | |
not focus on one declining continent of it. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:14:37 | 0:14:39 | |
Philip Markwick, you had a question about this. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:47 | |
I'm just interested in your take on this. | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
Do you think the other countries of the EU are being unreasonable? | 0:14:49 | 0:14:53 | |
-I'll ask the question. -Yeah. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
The UK seems to have reasonable requests. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
Why is the EU flirting with a Brexit? | 0:14:58 | 0:15:01 | |
The UK seems to have reasonable requests. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:04 | |
Why are they flirting, Jacob Rees-Mogg? | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
Why would they risk Britain leaving? | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
Well, I'm afraid my view is it's all a great charade, | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
that we've asked for so little and they're just making a fuss about | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
one thing so that when we get one little bit of it, | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
everyone will say, "Fantastic triumph!" | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
"Glory for the great British leadership!" "Hail to the chief!" | 0:15:20 | 0:15:23 | |
But I think it's all an absolute stitch-up. | 0:15:23 | 0:15:27 | |
I imagine this was agreed a long time ago. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:30 | |
If one reads the papers it basically comes down to, | 0:15:30 | 0:15:33 | |
"Does Mrs Merkel approve?" | 0:15:33 | 0:15:34 | |
If the Chancellor of Germany approves, we'll get it. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
And a few months ago it looked as if she did. | 0:15:37 | 0:15:39 | |
I expect that after a long session | 0:15:39 | 0:15:41 | |
we will get most of this fiddly little thing on benefits. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:45 | |
The other three are just not serious things to ask for. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:49 | |
They are no-change, the gentleman's absolutely right. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:52 | |
The European Council is not flirting with Brexit. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:55 | |
It's going to allow us to appear to have a phoney victory and | 0:15:55 | 0:15:59 | |
I don't think the British electorate will be fooled this time | 0:15:59 | 0:16:03 | |
in the way they were in 1975 | 0:16:03 | 0:16:04 | |
when they were told there had been major changes | 0:16:04 | 0:16:07 | |
and there hadn't been any changes at all. | 0:16:07 | 0:16:09 | |
How many Tories will be on your side of the argument, do you think, | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
if he does come back with what you call a phoney fix? | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
I think the numbers are growing every day. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:18 | |
We get bigger and stronger! I think if you talk to... | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:16:22 | 0:16:23 | |
If you talk to fellow Conservative MPs, a lot of them are very cautious | 0:16:23 | 0:16:27 | |
on this renegotiation. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
They are perhaps more... dutiful than I am. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:34 | |
Duty and loyalty are very attractive qualities which | 0:16:34 | 0:16:37 | |
I probably ought to have more of to the leader of our party. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:40 | |
But I think as we get closer to the referendum | 0:16:40 | 0:16:42 | |
more and more people will make their views clear. | 0:16:42 | 0:16:45 | |
If you go to the Conservative Party in the country at large, | 0:16:45 | 0:16:47 | |
and Conservative associations, they make me look like a pro-European, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
so I know exactly where the Tory Party is. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
Isn't the problem here, though, that we're basically, | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
because of Cameron's behaviour over this renegotiation, | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
we are basically drifting into a potential scenario where, actually, | 0:17:00 | 0:17:03 | |
we may have a referendum which leads to us leaving the European Union? | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
-Yes. I know. -It doesn't get much more serious, | 0:17:07 | 0:17:10 | |
particularly if that then triggers | 0:17:10 | 0:17:12 | |
Scotland, which is very pro-European - in my view quite rightly - | 0:17:12 | 0:17:16 | |
then says, "Sod that for a game of soldiers, | 0:17:16 | 0:17:19 | |
"we're out of the United Kingdom." | 0:17:19 | 0:17:21 | |
So this is actually very big stakes and not a time for | 0:17:21 | 0:17:26 | |
the British Prime Minister, in my view, to be playing silly games, | 0:17:26 | 0:17:29 | |
which is what I think he's doing, a lot of this audience | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
clearly share that view, but more importantly | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
-so do the other members of the European Union. -That's right. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
I think that... | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
-Let's face it, they are probably right. -But they talk about it... | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
Some people talk about it as if it's going to be some sort of | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
amicable divorce, as if you could have Britain | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
as one party and Europe as the other party - it's not like that. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:51 | |
It's like... We're all thinking about Christmas, | 0:17:51 | 0:17:53 | |
a group of brothers and sisters meeting up | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
and one strops off. What happens? | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
The others continue and they don't have anything to do with them. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
People talk about Switzerland, why can't we be like Switzerland? | 0:18:01 | 0:18:05 | |
I don't know if you remember the Prime Minister of Norway saying, | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
"We're outside Europe and what happens is | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
"we get faxed information on what it is we are supposed to do | 0:18:11 | 0:18:14 | |
"if we want to engage with Europe, and trade with Europe." | 0:18:14 | 0:18:18 | |
We don't need to be told from the Continent of Europe | 0:18:18 | 0:18:21 | |
how we trade with Europe, | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
we need to be absolutely right there. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:26 | |
It's not right for Mark to say, | 0:18:26 | 0:18:28 | |
why can't we just trade with the rest of the world? | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
Our biggest trading partner is the rest of Europe. Let's get real. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
-APPLAUSE -We would be in the worst possible... | 0:18:34 | 0:18:36 | |
You. Young man there. Yep. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
I'm an A-level politics student studying the Constitution | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
and the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty, | 0:18:43 | 0:18:46 | |
and I find it disgraceful that our politicians throughout | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
the last 30 years or so have eroded the doctrine of parliamentary | 0:18:49 | 0:18:54 | |
sovereignty without even asking the people. | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
The man in the red pullover, there. You, sir. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:04 | |
I ask the panel, do they believe that the majority of | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
the English public have enough knowledge | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
and information and understanding of the EU to make a vote | 0:19:11 | 0:19:17 | |
constructively, or will they just be emotional votes? | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
APPLAUSE What do you think? | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
All the people I've spoken to - some of them are well educated | 0:19:25 | 0:19:30 | |
and some aren't - it's going to be emotional. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:33 | |
I trust the people, as I do at general elections, | 0:19:33 | 0:19:35 | |
that the British people in their votes get good governments | 0:19:35 | 0:19:40 | |
again and again, and the governments that they want. | 0:19:40 | 0:19:42 | |
I think the mass decisions of millions of people actually are | 0:19:42 | 0:19:47 | |
better at getting the right answers than a few of the elite. | 0:19:47 | 0:19:50 | |
So I trust the people against the establishment. | 0:19:50 | 0:19:54 | |
The gentleman makes a very good point about engagement | 0:19:54 | 0:19:56 | |
and I think that is exactly right. The opportunity to engage | 0:19:56 | 0:19:59 | |
and be educated positively | 0:19:59 | 0:20:00 | |
about the issue that's going to be put in front of you. | 0:20:00 | 0:20:03 | |
We did that in Scotland at the referendum, | 0:20:03 | 0:20:06 | |
we inspired a nation, you could say. | 0:20:06 | 0:20:08 | |
Whether you were for or against, | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
the fact that we asked people the big questions, | 0:20:11 | 0:20:13 | |
we gave them the opportunity to be in charge of their future | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
in a democratic way. | 0:20:16 | 0:20:18 | |
Unfortunately, that's not what is happening here | 0:20:18 | 0:20:20 | |
and it's not going to be that kind of referendum, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
because we are running out of time. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:25 | |
The only advantage I can see that I've got out of it, | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
that I've seen as a real advantage, that I understand, | 0:20:28 | 0:20:31 | |
I don't have to keep changing my money when I go on holiday. | 0:20:31 | 0:20:34 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:20:34 | 0:20:36 | |
The crux of what I was getting at is, do you think the Prime Minister | 0:20:36 | 0:20:40 | |
is pursuing a negotiation in good faith or not? | 0:20:40 | 0:20:45 | |
-No. -No. | 0:20:45 | 0:20:46 | |
I certainly think the Prime Minister is acting in good faith, yes. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
-Do you? -Of course I do. -I don't think he is. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:51 | |
He doesn't want to be quoted saying anything else | 0:20:51 | 0:20:54 | |
but he doesn't mean that. | 0:20:54 | 0:20:55 | |
I would say that privately. I trust the Prime Minister. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:58 | |
You'd say something in private that you actually said in public? | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
I always do. I am very unusual. | 0:21:01 | 0:21:02 | |
That is a very unusual thing for a politician. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:04 | |
I have always trusted the Prime Minister, | 0:21:04 | 0:21:07 | |
I continue to trust his... good faith. | 0:21:07 | 0:21:10 | |
He is doing his best as he sees it, | 0:21:10 | 0:21:12 | |
but I fundamentally disagree with the approach he's taking. | 0:21:12 | 0:21:14 | |
Jacob, I don't trust the Prime Minister. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
You may remember a session when we were both Conservative MPs, | 0:21:18 | 0:21:20 | |
and I asked the Prime Minister a question about | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
the European Arrest Warrant. He'd previously argued against it. | 0:21:23 | 0:21:26 | |
He then turned round, and with apparent sincerity | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
said that there was no other way in order to tackle terrorists, | 0:21:29 | 0:21:33 | |
and we had to go down this path. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:36 | |
He promised a vote in the House of Commons on that | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
before the by-election which I fought, and he broke his word on it. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:42 | |
What he is doing with this renegotiation, or he's trying to do, | 0:21:42 | 0:21:45 | |
is choreographing it, | 0:21:45 | 0:21:46 | |
so as well as being the captain of one of the teams, | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
he gets to set the rules of this referendum, and that isn't right. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:52 | |
I wanted to take up a point about the devolved administrations | 0:21:52 | 0:21:54 | |
and what we heard from Hannah. What the SNP did is | 0:21:54 | 0:21:57 | |
it argued there was going to be this sort of honey and sunlit uplands | 0:21:57 | 0:22:01 | |
for Scotland because the oil price would be at 120 a barrel forever. | 0:22:01 | 0:22:05 | |
In fact it's at 40. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:06 | |
The idea that we vote to leave the European Union, | 0:22:06 | 0:22:09 | |
that the Scots feel so strongly about this, | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
and the case for independence, as Hannah would claim, is so strong, | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
it is absolutely preposterous to believe that Scotland would | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
vote for independence when the black hole in its finances is so enormous. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:21 | |
As far as Wales is concerned, we actually saw a poll recently | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
in Wales that saw more people voting to leave the European Union | 0:22:25 | 0:22:28 | |
than wanting to remain. So we can come out as a United Kingdom | 0:22:28 | 0:22:32 | |
and once again govern ourselves. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
He says there's no risk to the union. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
I'm glad he gave me the opportunity to speak about the oil price, | 0:22:39 | 0:22:42 | |
because it is something that has been peddled out | 0:22:42 | 0:22:46 | |
by the Unionist parties and the anti-European people, Euro-sceptics | 0:22:46 | 0:22:49 | |
time and time and again. Let's be very clear, | 0:22:49 | 0:22:52 | |
Scotland's economy is just as strong and we are just as well off | 0:22:52 | 0:22:56 | |
as the rest of the UK, per head of population, without oil and gas. | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
Now, nobody got it right on the oil price. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:02 | |
The OBR's forecast was actually further out than the one | 0:23:02 | 0:23:06 | |
that we had in the white paper, but let's be clear, | 0:23:06 | 0:23:09 | |
the whole point of having independence | 0:23:09 | 0:23:11 | |
and having control over your own affairs, | 0:23:11 | 0:23:13 | |
whether that's as a nation or as a region, is that you have the control | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
and the ability to do with your resources what you feel is right. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
And in 2011, the Coalition Government, | 0:23:20 | 0:23:22 | |
as described by the local Chamber of Commerce, | 0:23:22 | 0:23:25 | |
committed "a drive-by shooting" on the oil and gas industry | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
by hiking up taxes. There's not been a stable tax regime. | 0:23:28 | 0:23:31 | |
We would put in place a stable tax regime | 0:23:31 | 0:23:33 | |
and we would manage it in an appropriate way. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:36 | |
If you want this independence for Scotland, | 0:23:36 | 0:23:38 | |
why do you want the UK to be ruled by Brussels? | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
Surely there's an inconsistency. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:43 | 0:23:44 | |
All right, all right. OK. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:49 | |
Surely the United Kingdom as a whole is much more able | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
to be independent than Scotland. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
Well, no, because you have not advocated well for us | 0:23:54 | 0:23:58 | |
-at European level. -We'll take it one step at a time. | 0:23:58 | 0:24:01 | |
We've got the negotiations, then the referendum | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
and then we'll have, no doubt, questions, depending on what happens. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
But it'll be good for Labour and the SNP to be campaigning together | 0:24:06 | 0:24:09 | |
to be able to be part of a union of nations. | 0:24:09 | 0:24:12 | |
I look forward to that. | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
If Labour could unite on anything, that would be good! | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
All right. Let's go on, cos we've spent a lot of time on that. | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
We're back after Christmas, I should say. | 0:24:20 | 0:24:22 | |
This is our last programme before Christmas. Well, it had better be! | 0:24:22 | 0:24:26 | |
We're back on 14th January, and we're going to be in London on the 14th, | 0:24:26 | 0:24:29 | |
in Limehouse, | 0:24:29 | 0:24:31 | |
and the following week we're going to be in Belfast, | 0:24:31 | 0:24:34 | |
and the details are on the screen of how to apply. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:37 | |
I want to take another question now, let's take this one. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:39 | |
Hannah Ishaq, please. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:40 | |
Do you think our military involvement in Syria | 0:24:40 | 0:24:43 | |
is contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK? | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
Do you think our military involvement in Syria | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
is contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK? | 0:24:49 | 0:24:54 | |
Hannah Bardell. | 0:24:54 | 0:24:55 | |
Yes, I think there is a very good chance that it is. | 0:24:56 | 0:25:00 | |
I have to say, as a new MP, sitting in the House that night | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
that we voted to bomb Syria was pretty devastating, actually. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:07 | |
I believe that I voted the right way, | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
not to bomb Syria, because the reality... | 0:25:10 | 0:25:13 | |
The reality is that there are a whole number of countries | 0:25:18 | 0:25:22 | |
already bombing Syria. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:23 | |
So to go in there just to join in, just to do something, | 0:25:23 | 0:25:26 | |
it's as if we had to do something because nothing wasn't an option. | 0:25:26 | 0:25:30 | |
Nobody was suggesting nothing. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:31 | |
We were very supportive of the Vienna agreement, | 0:25:31 | 0:25:34 | |
which was about sensible transition to a stable government, | 0:25:34 | 0:25:38 | |
which was about engaging and working with international partners, | 0:25:38 | 0:25:41 | |
something that the UN was very keen on. | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
But what many people that have come out of Syria have said | 0:25:44 | 0:25:46 | |
is that bombing is not going to solve the problem. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
It will only marginalise... | 0:25:49 | 0:25:50 | |
The question is, is it contributing to radicalisation? | 0:25:50 | 0:25:54 | |
We are attacking an ideology, | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
we are not just attacking individual fighters on the ground. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
We are going after an ideology, and it is so important | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
that we have to try and understand that and hit it at its heart. | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
So, stop the flow of money that is coming through oil, | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
attack their cyber and digital technology. | 0:26:09 | 0:26:13 | |
None of that's being done. We're not even bombing Raqqa. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:15 | |
The Prime Minister stood up on 2nd December | 0:26:15 | 0:26:17 | |
and said, "We're going to hit them where it hurts, | 0:26:17 | 0:26:20 | |
"we're going to hit them in Raqqa," and the Defence Secretary | 0:26:20 | 0:26:23 | |
has already reeled back from that and said, | 0:26:23 | 0:26:25 | |
"We'll get round to it when we find a strategy, | 0:26:25 | 0:26:27 | |
"and we've worked out what we're going to do." | 0:26:27 | 0:26:29 | |
You're answering a different question. | 0:26:29 | 0:26:31 | |
The question is, is what we're doing in Syria | 0:26:31 | 0:26:33 | |
contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK? | 0:26:33 | 0:26:36 | |
Yes, because I think people feel that they are... | 0:26:36 | 0:26:39 | |
there's going to be more displaced people, more chaos on the ground. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:45 | |
But I also think that Muslims in the UK will realise that... | 0:26:45 | 0:26:51 | |
you know, as everybody does, | 0:26:51 | 0:26:53 | |
that the extremists are nothing to do with Islam. | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
They're nothing to do with the Muslim tradition, | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
and we have to call them out for what they are. Daesh are terrorists. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
They are a faction, and they have nothing to do with that religion. | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
-Jacob Rees-Mogg. -Erm... | 0:27:08 | 0:27:10 | |
I think it's a very interesting question, | 0:27:12 | 0:27:14 | |
to which there is no very straightforward answer. | 0:27:14 | 0:27:17 | |
There are certainly examples historically when | 0:27:17 | 0:27:20 | |
the counterterrorist actions that are taken | 0:27:20 | 0:27:23 | |
lead to greater activity by the terrorists. | 0:27:23 | 0:27:25 | |
That is known from our experience in Northern Ireland, | 0:27:25 | 0:27:28 | |
where the early response, particularly internment, | 0:27:28 | 0:27:31 | |
led to greater support in the LOCAL community for terrorism. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:35 | |
Why I don't think it's the case now is that the radicalisation | 0:27:35 | 0:27:40 | |
of SOME people in this country predates our bombing of Syria | 0:27:40 | 0:27:44 | |
by quite a considerable time, so there was already this risk, | 0:27:44 | 0:27:47 | |
and relatively small numbers of people going to Syria | 0:27:47 | 0:27:51 | |
from the United Kingdom to be involved in that particular fight. | 0:27:51 | 0:27:55 | |
I don't think the bombing over the last two weeks has had a particular | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
effect on that. But I also think, as the more general point, | 0:27:59 | 0:28:03 | |
the effect you get of a crackdown on terrorism is more likely to be | 0:28:03 | 0:28:06 | |
domestic than it is to be international. | 0:28:06 | 0:28:08 | |
So on balance I think, no. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:11 | |
OK. What do you think, Hannah? | 0:28:11 | 0:28:14 | |
I don't think it'd be fair to just be looking at Syria here. | 0:28:14 | 0:28:16 | |
If we look at London itself, only recently there was an attack | 0:28:16 | 0:28:20 | |
on the Tube, so, from it happening in Syria, | 0:28:20 | 0:28:22 | |
it's always going to affect what's happening back home. | 0:28:22 | 0:28:25 | |
Also, the people who did the bombing in France, they weren't Syrian. | 0:28:25 | 0:28:30 | |
They were born in Europe, so we need to look at | 0:28:30 | 0:28:33 | |
what's happening at home before we attack anywhere else. | 0:28:33 | 0:28:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:28:37 | 0:28:39 | |
So you think it is a contribution, in other words? | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
I think it certainly contributes. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
There are people who already have an ideology in the Middle East, | 0:28:44 | 0:28:47 | |
or even here, who think the West are evil, | 0:28:47 | 0:28:50 | |
or the West are having such a negative impact on them, | 0:28:50 | 0:28:52 | |
so by the West actually confirming their suspicions, | 0:28:52 | 0:28:56 | |
-they're only going to be more radical. -Emily Thornberry. | 0:28:56 | 0:28:58 | |
I think there is something about some of the wars | 0:28:58 | 0:29:01 | |
that have taken place in the Middle East, | 0:29:01 | 0:29:04 | |
and a feeling amongst some people that Western lives | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 | |
are more important than the lives of Muslim people in the Middle East. | 0:29:07 | 0:29:11 | |
And I think that... | 0:29:11 | 0:29:13 | |
So you will have the Prime Minister, for example, | 0:29:13 | 0:29:16 | |
talking about a city as being the head of a snake, | 0:29:16 | 0:29:19 | |
and if you're bombing that city | 0:29:19 | 0:29:21 | |
there will be civilians who will be killed, but | 0:29:21 | 0:29:23 | |
not talking about those civilians and not being aware of that. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:27 | |
Which is why I was not prepared to vote for the bombing of Syria, | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
because I felt that it just simply wasn't part | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
of a strategy that made any sense. | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
I don't think you should go into a country and destabilise it | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
even more than it is, and then walk away again | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
and think that your own country is going to be safer. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:43 | |
Because I think if you look at where we have been involved | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
in military action over the last few years, | 0:29:46 | 0:29:48 | |
we have not necessarily made those countries any more stable, | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
or made ourselves any safer. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:53 | |
I think the alienation and feeling among some people, | 0:29:53 | 0:29:56 | |
you know, who have gone through Ramadan, | 0:29:56 | 0:29:58 | |
who have gone through starving along with Muslims across the world, and | 0:29:58 | 0:30:02 | |
who feel that there are some people in Britain who just don't consider | 0:30:02 | 0:30:05 | |
some lives as being as important as others, | 0:30:05 | 0:30:07 | |
and that is obviously completely wrong. | 0:30:07 | 0:30:09 | |
We have to be really clear about that, | 0:30:09 | 0:30:12 | |
you know, we have to be really clear about what we're doing | 0:30:12 | 0:30:14 | |
and why we do it. There are many other reasons, | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
I think, for the radicalisation of people. | 0:30:17 | 0:30:19 | |
I don't think that it is to do with wars. | 0:30:19 | 0:30:22 | |
-I think there's also making sure... -Surely... Sorry. | 0:30:22 | 0:30:25 | |
The main reason, surely, for the start of radicalisation, | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
I suspect in Britain and many other countries, | 0:30:28 | 0:30:31 | |
was the senseless, illegal war in Iraq. | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:30:34 | 0:30:36 | |
The reason I think... It's really important to understand | 0:30:39 | 0:30:42 | |
the history here. You know, when we went to war in Iraq, | 0:30:42 | 0:30:45 | |
on completely bogus claims about weapons of mass destruction, | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
and we did so, in my view, illegally, | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
what we did was we created a hornet's nest | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
which we then didn't try and repair. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:56 | |
And we just decamped and we let Iraq burn. | 0:30:56 | 0:30:59 | |
And through that burning came Isis, who were basically representing | 0:30:59 | 0:31:03 | |
a bunch of people who'd been bombed and were poor and desperate | 0:31:03 | 0:31:09 | |
and thinking, we need something we can attach ourselves to. | 0:31:09 | 0:31:12 | |
That's where this all started. | 0:31:12 | 0:31:14 | |
But that doesn't mean that the military action in Syria is wrong, | 0:31:14 | 0:31:18 | |
because let's ask ourselves why we sent in airpower when we did. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:22 | |
We did it after the absolutely appalling scenes | 0:31:22 | 0:31:26 | |
on the streets of Paris, where Isis bombed football stadiums, | 0:31:26 | 0:31:30 | |
they bombed restaurants, they bombed music concert venues. | 0:31:30 | 0:31:34 | |
They tried to attack every form of Western life. | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
-If that had happened... -How is bombing them going to help that? | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
-That's inflammatory. -Let me explain. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:42 | |
There is a multifaceted way that you deal with an enemy like Isis. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:46 | |
They are not like Al-Qaeda, | 0:31:46 | 0:31:47 | |
they are a geographic territorial ambition group. | 0:31:47 | 0:31:51 | |
They want to take over states. | 0:31:51 | 0:31:53 | |
They want the world to become an Islamic State in their likeness, | 0:31:53 | 0:31:58 | |
which is a terrifying prospect, by the way. | 0:31:58 | 0:32:00 | |
Is it effective, deciding to extend the bombing to Syria? | 0:32:00 | 0:32:03 | |
I think you have to do something. These people will stop at nothing. | 0:32:03 | 0:32:06 | |
You see, politicians who want to be seen to be doing something... | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
-Let me finish. -..are politicians you should be very worried about. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
-I heard what you said. -They have to have a plan. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:14 | |
No, this is the plan, I think. | 0:32:14 | 0:32:16 | |
From a military point of view, if you're going to combat these people | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
on the ground, which is... they're in Syria and Iraq, | 0:32:19 | 0:32:22 | |
you have to do it in a multifaceted way. You attack the money - | 0:32:22 | 0:32:25 | |
they've got trillions of dollars coming in from their oil revenues, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:28 | |
for starters. A lot of it from the very people that we're siding with, | 0:32:28 | 0:32:32 | |
so it's a ludicrous load of hypocrisy. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
You've got to attack them politically, diplomatically, | 0:32:34 | 0:32:37 | |
and when it comes to military action you've got to have, in my view, | 0:32:37 | 0:32:40 | |
and it was promising to see the start of this at the Saudi-led | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
coalition this week, where they may put boots on the ground, | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
Arab boots on the ground, to combat what is an Arab problem, | 0:32:47 | 0:32:51 | |
but we need to support them with airpower | 0:32:51 | 0:32:52 | |
because we have sophisticated airpower. | 0:32:52 | 0:32:54 | |
-Are you saying... -You can't win it without airpower. | 0:32:54 | 0:32:57 | |
Are you saying that it's not contributing to the radicalisation of | 0:32:57 | 0:33:00 | |
Muslims here in Britain, which is what Hannah's question was? | 0:33:00 | 0:33:03 | |
I think what is happening in Syria is now a trigger for it being | 0:33:03 | 0:33:06 | |
used as an excuse, but the genuine radicalisation started from Iraq, | 0:33:06 | 0:33:09 | |
-and that should never have happened. -Fine. | 0:33:09 | 0:33:11 | |
The woman there in the centre has been patiently waiting. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
I think obviously our aggressive foreign policy is | 0:33:15 | 0:33:19 | |
a contributing factor, but don't you think that a large problem is, | 0:33:19 | 0:33:24 | |
look at the people who are voting to take this action. | 0:33:24 | 0:33:26 | |
It's white middle-class men. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
There's no good examples for Muslim children. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:33 | |
I was speaking to a leader of a Muslim school in Slough | 0:33:33 | 0:33:36 | |
recently who told me that he invited a police officer | 0:33:36 | 0:33:40 | |
with a big beard to come and meet the children | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
to show them that they do have opportunities | 0:33:42 | 0:33:45 | |
in this country, because I don't think that they believe they do. | 0:33:45 | 0:33:49 | |
All right. The man behind you was shaking his head, I think. | 0:33:49 | 0:33:51 | |
Immediately behind you, as you started speaking. Yes, you, sir. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:54 | |
Yes, I think we're fundamentally missing the point. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
I think Isis and Al-Qaeda are | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
a vehicle for this particular ideology. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:02 | |
What we have to do is tackle the root of where this ideology | 0:34:02 | 0:34:06 | |
stems from, and it's agreed that this strain... | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
this stream of Islam is | 0:34:09 | 0:34:11 | |
called Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia, | 0:34:11 | 0:34:13 | |
and it's Saudi Arabia which has been exporting and funding | 0:34:13 | 0:34:17 | |
this type of ideology. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:19 | |
And the fact is the UK and the West have a very close relationship | 0:34:19 | 0:34:24 | |
with Saudi Arabia, so that's where the root of the ideology | 0:34:24 | 0:34:29 | |
and the root of the problem is coming from, | 0:34:29 | 0:34:31 | |
and before we deal with that... | 0:34:31 | 0:34:34 | |
that's where we need to look at first. | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
OK. And you up there. APPLAUSE | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
The woman there. Yes. | 0:34:42 | 0:34:43 | |
Yeah. We are taught, like, from pretty much as soon as | 0:34:43 | 0:34:46 | |
we can walk and talk that violence isn't the answer, | 0:34:46 | 0:34:49 | |
so you go in, you spend £100,000 on bombing a country | 0:34:49 | 0:34:55 | |
but have no money to help the hundreds and thousands of people | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
that are now fleeing that country... it doesn't make any sense to me. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:04 | |
You go in and we are portraying ourselves as these people who | 0:35:04 | 0:35:09 | |
bomb a country to prevent people from being angry at us. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:15 | |
It doesn't make any sense. We are planning... We are planning... | 0:35:15 | 0:35:20 | |
No, we're trying to stop them beheading people | 0:35:20 | 0:35:23 | |
and stoning gays to death, and marauding around committing | 0:35:23 | 0:35:26 | |
the atrocities we saw on the streets of Paris. | 0:35:26 | 0:35:29 | |
-You're not going to stop... -APPLAUSE | 0:35:29 | 0:35:31 | |
At some point you've got to stand up to these people. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
And you've got to defeat them militarily. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:36 | |
Mark Reckless. Stop all talking at once. Mark Reckless. | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
I think people who've been making these decisions have really | 0:35:39 | 0:35:42 | |
been all over the place. I was listening | 0:35:42 | 0:35:44 | |
to Emily just now saying | 0:35:44 | 0:35:45 | |
we shouldn't just vote to bomb without any plan, | 0:35:45 | 0:35:48 | |
and how...now under Jeremy Corbyn she's against bombing IS in Syria, | 0:35:48 | 0:35:52 | |
but unless I'm much mistaken, | 0:35:52 | 0:35:54 | |
Emily, you voted previously for bombing IS in Iraq, | 0:35:54 | 0:35:58 | |
and before that you voted to intervene by bombing in Libya, | 0:35:58 | 0:36:01 | |
-from which we're still suffering the consequences. -And I can... | 0:36:01 | 0:36:04 | |
Yeah, yeah. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:06 | |
And I tell you what... I tell you what happened, was | 0:36:06 | 0:36:08 | |
when we were asked by the Iraqis... | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
Iraq is a mess, and I agree with Piers | 0:36:11 | 0:36:13 | |
that Iraq is a mess after we have gone in. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:16 | |
But I was on the demonstrations against being involved in Iraq, | 0:36:16 | 0:36:20 | |
I was completely against the Iraq war, | 0:36:20 | 0:36:22 | |
but the fact is we went in and Iraq is now the country it is | 0:36:22 | 0:36:26 | |
largely as a result of our actions. | 0:36:26 | 0:36:28 | |
And so if the Iraqi government asks for our help to fight Isis, | 0:36:28 | 0:36:32 | |
and they have boots on the ground, and have their own troops, | 0:36:32 | 0:36:35 | |
then in those circumstances, yes, we back them up. | 0:36:35 | 0:36:37 | |
Completely different to Syria, | 0:36:37 | 0:36:39 | |
where they don't even have any boots on the ground. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:41 | |
We're talking about the effect. I must bring you back to the point. | 0:36:41 | 0:36:44 | |
The question was about the effect of these things on domestic | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
Muslim people in this country and whether they feel... | 0:36:47 | 0:36:51 | |
whether the accumulation particularly of Syria is a further radicalisation. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:56 | |
To an extent it does have an effect, and I suspect it will be mixed. | 0:36:56 | 0:36:59 | |
Some people will react differently | 0:36:59 | 0:37:01 | |
and some people will pervert their religion | 0:37:01 | 0:37:03 | |
and they haven't succeeded in other parts of their life | 0:37:03 | 0:37:06 | |
and they will jump on this as the thing | 0:37:06 | 0:37:08 | |
that can give them significance. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:10 | |
But it's the same whether it's Islamic State in Iraq or in Syria. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
-No, it's not. -And what we hear from the Prime Minister, | 0:37:13 | 0:37:16 | |
it's like he thinks this is unfinished business, | 0:37:16 | 0:37:18 | |
that we had this vote that he lost before to bomb Syria. | 0:37:18 | 0:37:21 | |
But that time he was trying to bomb the regime, Assad. | 0:37:21 | 0:37:24 | |
Now he's trying to bomb the other side, IS, | 0:37:24 | 0:37:26 | |
who are fighting AGAINST Assad. | 0:37:26 | 0:37:28 | |
And you, sir, in the spectacles there. Third row. Yes, you. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:32 | |
There is a gigantic chasm between peer-reviewed, academic, | 0:37:32 | 0:37:35 | |
evidence-based research on counterterrorism and terrorism | 0:37:35 | 0:37:39 | |
and the jingoistic rhetoric we hear on the media about, | 0:37:39 | 0:37:41 | |
you know, they hate our freedoms, it's about ideology, | 0:37:41 | 0:37:44 | |
we're at war with an ideology. | 0:37:44 | 0:37:46 | |
The consensus in the academic community is that | 0:37:46 | 0:37:48 | |
ideology is incidental, not causative. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
The causative factors are much more things like despair, | 0:37:51 | 0:37:56 | |
-things like alienation... -EMILY THORNBERRY: -Yes. | 0:37:56 | 0:37:59 | |
..things like feeling that certain people | 0:37:59 | 0:38:02 | |
are separated from wider society. | 0:38:02 | 0:38:04 | |
-Are you talking about this country? -This country and many others. | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
That's what I was trying to say. | 0:38:07 | 0:38:09 | |
The picture that you have of a family with little children | 0:38:09 | 0:38:12 | |
going off to Islamic State because somehow there might be | 0:38:12 | 0:38:14 | |
a better life for them there is just terrifying. | 0:38:14 | 0:38:17 | |
Absolutely. The point is if we talk about things like ideology we're | 0:38:17 | 0:38:20 | |
falling into the same trap, | 0:38:20 | 0:38:22 | |
the same rhetoric that was used even word for word in colonial times, | 0:38:22 | 0:38:28 | |
when people of colonial British... or British colonies would resist | 0:38:28 | 0:38:33 | |
and fight back, they were labelled as extremists. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
They were labelled as there's something wrong with their ideology. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:40 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:38:40 | 0:38:41 | |
I just want to come back to the lady on the edge saying we won't | 0:38:41 | 0:38:44 | |
do anything to help in Syria. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:46 | |
The British people, that's us, taxpayers, | 0:38:46 | 0:38:48 | |
have spent £1 billion to try to help the refugees in Syria. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:51 | |
We've done more than any other country other than | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
the United States to do this, and I think this is very important. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
I'm not usually a great fan of overseas aid, | 0:38:58 | 0:39:00 | |
but I think this is absolutely the right way to spend it, | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
to help the most troubled people, the most at-risk refugees. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:07 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE No, we're closing up now. | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
There is a naivety about the use of airpower | 0:39:10 | 0:39:12 | |
if you're going to try and defeat them militarily. | 0:39:12 | 0:39:15 | |
Ask anybody in the military. | 0:39:15 | 0:39:17 | |
Can boots on the ground defeat Isis without airpower? No, they can't. | 0:39:17 | 0:39:21 | |
So if you sign up to the idea that Isis must be defeated, | 0:39:21 | 0:39:25 | |
at some point you've got to acknowledge we need airpower. | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
I'm afraid it's a military necessity. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:30 | |
-But and boots on the ground. -Yes. Supporting the boots on the ground. | 0:39:30 | 0:39:34 | |
All right, I want to move on to another question | 0:39:34 | 0:39:36 | |
because we have 20 minutes left, | 0:39:36 | 0:39:37 | |
and we've got two more questions I'd like to get to if I can. | 0:39:37 | 0:39:40 | |
For the sake of our audience getting through the questions | 0:39:40 | 0:39:43 | |
they want to ask. Pam Grant, your turn. | 0:39:43 | 0:39:45 | |
If Donald Trump becomes President of the United States, | 0:39:45 | 0:39:49 | |
would it upset our special relationship? | 0:39:49 | 0:39:52 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:39:52 | 0:39:54 | |
Mark Reckless. Mark, you start on this. | 0:39:54 | 0:39:58 | |
I think it probably would. | 0:40:04 | 0:40:05 | |
It is absolutely extraordinary that | 0:40:05 | 0:40:08 | |
a man such as Donald Trump, | 0:40:08 | 0:40:10 | |
with the views he has expressed, | 0:40:10 | 0:40:12 | |
is polling, I think, around 40% | 0:40:12 | 0:40:14 | |
of likely Republican voters. | 0:40:14 | 0:40:17 | |
Now, I don't believe he's going to get the Republican nomination | 0:40:17 | 0:40:21 | |
or still less become President of the United States. | 0:40:21 | 0:40:24 | |
But to think he MIGHT get the Republican nomination, | 0:40:24 | 0:40:27 | |
and if something blew up with Hillary Clinton, all those | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
e-mails, something else came out, that actually you can paint | 0:40:30 | 0:40:33 | |
a scenario in which he does become president of the United States. | 0:40:33 | 0:40:36 | |
I think that would be very unwelcome, | 0:40:36 | 0:40:39 | |
but I think Donald Trump, he is gauging something. | 0:40:39 | 0:40:41 | |
There's something happening in America but also in Europe, | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
probably in our own country, | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
there's a huge disconnect between the politicians and the public. | 0:40:46 | 0:40:51 | |
And instead of a free market there is a crony corporatism | 0:40:51 | 0:40:55 | |
and a belief that however you vote the power has all gone to people | 0:40:55 | 0:40:59 | |
who are not accountable, whether it's the European Commission | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
or judges or quangos, | 0:41:02 | 0:41:04 | |
and actually people who want to make a difference | 0:41:04 | 0:41:06 | |
over their own lives, they want their democracy back. | 0:41:06 | 0:41:09 | |
And that's why I want to get out of the European Union | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
and I think probably in America it's something in a way I don't | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
agree with, but it's something Donald Trump is expressing... | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
-HANNAH BARDELL: -That's a great shoehorn, Mark. | 0:41:17 | 0:41:19 | |
How did you get the European Union into a question about Donald Trump? | 0:41:19 | 0:41:23 | |
He gets the European Union into everything. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
You, sir. Yes. Come on, quickly. | 0:41:26 | 0:41:28 | |
Last time I checked, over 400,000 people had | 0:41:28 | 0:41:30 | |
voted against Donald Trump being allowed into the UK. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
-Now 500, I think. -Over 500, in fact. | 0:41:33 | 0:41:35 | |
So is that going to be seriously debated in Parliament, | 0:41:35 | 0:41:38 | |
-as the people have spoken? -Should it be? | 0:41:38 | 0:41:40 | |
-HANNAH BARDELL: -It should be. -Why? | 0:41:40 | 0:41:41 | |
That means 65 million people didn't, of course. So it's all relative. | 0:41:41 | 0:41:47 | |
You have a go at this, Piers Morgan. | 0:41:47 | 0:41:49 | |
Look, I've done this show 19 times, somebody informed me yesterday. | 0:41:49 | 0:41:53 | |
-Which show is this? -Question Time. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
You are a show, aren't you? | 0:41:56 | 0:41:58 | |
No, it's a programme. | 0:41:58 | 0:41:59 | |
-A programme. -He's been in America too long! | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
CHEERING | 0:42:02 | 0:42:04 | |
Thank you. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:07 | |
Thank you very much indeed for saying that, thank you. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:11 | |
I would like to apologise for denigrating your programme. | 0:42:11 | 0:42:15 | |
Now make your point. | 0:42:15 | 0:42:17 | |
Your programme 19 times, | 0:42:17 | 0:42:18 | |
and I'm about to get the biggest cheer I've ever had | 0:42:18 | 0:42:21 | |
in the 19 times I have appeared, | 0:42:21 | 0:42:23 | |
because I've known Donald Trump ten years, | 0:42:23 | 0:42:25 | |
his judgment is very sound, he made me his first Celebrity Apprentice | 0:42:25 | 0:42:29 | |
in America, and I consider him to be a personal friend. | 0:42:29 | 0:42:32 | |
-SILENCE FROM AUDIENCE -Exactly. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:35 | |
So, to me, I'm slightly alarmed at the way this has played out for him. | 0:42:35 | 0:42:38 | |
I didn't understand what the whole "we're going to ban Muslims" | 0:42:38 | 0:42:41 | |
stuff was about. I wrote a column attacking him for it. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:44 | |
But I do understand on a separate level | 0:42:44 | 0:42:47 | |
why he is resonating with the American public. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:50 | |
And the reason is that they are fearful. | 0:42:50 | 0:42:52 | |
They are very fearful that they are now heading towards another | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
9/11 scenario following what happened in California | 0:42:55 | 0:42:57 | |
two weeks ago. And he's tapping into that fear. | 0:42:57 | 0:43:00 | |
He's also totally different to any other politician in America. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
He speaks his mind, he never apologises, he's bombastic, | 0:43:03 | 0:43:07 | |
he's a showman, | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
but in a way he's a slight throwback to how America used to be | 0:43:09 | 0:43:12 | |
when it was a chest-beating, all-dominant superpower. | 0:43:12 | 0:43:15 | |
And to underestimate him is to make a big mistake, in my view. | 0:43:15 | 0:43:19 | |
He's a very smart guy, he knows exactly what he's doing. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:22 | |
We may not like it, but trust me, banning him from Britain | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
will not make any difference to his prospects. | 0:43:25 | 0:43:27 | |
The question was if he became President would it | 0:43:27 | 0:43:29 | |
upset our special relationship? Would it be a different Trump | 0:43:29 | 0:43:32 | |
from the one that seems to be upsetting people at the moment? | 0:43:32 | 0:43:34 | |
I actually don't think so. Banning him would be difficult, obviously, | 0:43:34 | 0:43:38 | |
if you couldn't let the President into the country, | 0:43:38 | 0:43:40 | |
but I looked at what Vladimir Putin said today about him, | 0:43:40 | 0:43:42 | |
and it was quite interesting. | 0:43:42 | 0:43:44 | |
He was talking him up very warmly. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:45 | |
-Brilliant and talented, he called him. -Right. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
And whether you like him or not, Trump, you don't get to get | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
a 10 billion empire without being fairly brilliant or talented. | 0:43:51 | 0:43:54 | |
Even if he's offensive. | 0:43:54 | 0:43:56 | |
-Doesn't seem to go down too well in Scotland, does he? -No. | 0:43:56 | 0:44:00 | |
No, and I would like to think that Nicola Sturgeon, | 0:44:00 | 0:44:02 | |
our First Minister, has led the way on this. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
She removed him from the GlobalScot network, | 0:44:05 | 0:44:07 | |
removed him from being an ambassador for Scotland, | 0:44:07 | 0:44:10 | |
and he's also had his honorary degree... | 0:44:10 | 0:44:11 | |
-What? -Who made him the ambassador? | 0:44:11 | 0:44:13 | |
-Yeah, who made him ambassador? -Alex Salmond. -Well, let's be clear. | 0:44:13 | 0:44:18 | |
You liked him when it suited you, didn't you? | 0:44:18 | 0:44:21 | |
Well, he invested in Scotland, | 0:44:21 | 0:44:22 | |
he has a number of businesses there, and the people who work... | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
There are 20,000 people work for the Trump Organisation. | 0:44:25 | 0:44:28 | |
Presumably they do not all hold his views. | 0:44:28 | 0:44:31 | |
So it is not they or the areas that he has his businesses | 0:44:31 | 0:44:35 | |
that should be disadvantaged. What he should do is apologise. | 0:44:35 | 0:44:39 | |
He should apologise for views that are abhorrent, | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
that are divisive, and have no place in our society. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:45 | |
Which particular views, and to whom? | 0:44:45 | 0:44:48 | |
Well, the views about banning Muslims. | 0:44:48 | 0:44:51 | |
That is just... It is abhorrent. It's a ridiculous thing to suggest. | 0:44:51 | 0:44:56 | |
And, at the end of the day, we share a lot across the ocean with America. | 0:44:56 | 0:45:03 | |
We've exported Piers Morgan. | 0:45:03 | 0:45:04 | |
I think some exports we might have quite happily left there. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:07 | |
No, I've come back. I've been reimported. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:10 | |
The woman here on my left. Yes. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:13 | |
Hi. | 0:45:13 | 0:45:14 | |
As Jacob Rees-Mogg said, in terms of people voting, | 0:45:14 | 0:45:18 | |
the people's vote is the true vote, | 0:45:18 | 0:45:20 | |
if the people of America vote for Donald Trump, | 0:45:20 | 0:45:23 | |
then that's what they deserve. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
-Jacob? -I think the lady is absolutely right that | 0:45:25 | 0:45:29 | |
we have to trust democracy. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | |
I would say two other things. | 0:45:31 | 0:45:33 | |
First of all, I think we overstate the special relationship, | 0:45:33 | 0:45:36 | |
and that we think we have a very strong relationship with the US | 0:45:36 | 0:45:39 | |
and the US doesn't lose a lot of sleep over what the | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
United Kingdom thinks, and I think we should be cautious about that. | 0:45:42 | 0:45:45 | |
The second is that I think we have a tendency to think | 0:45:45 | 0:45:50 | |
all American presidents are deeply stupid. | 0:45:50 | 0:45:53 | |
We thought that of Ronald Reagan, we thought that of George Bush Jr. | 0:45:53 | 0:45:56 | |
-Obama? -We don't think that of Obama, but we thought | 0:45:56 | 0:45:59 | |
of Bill Clinton that he had certain problems in the fidelity area. | 0:45:59 | 0:46:05 | |
It doesn't make him stupid. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:06 | |
-It doesn't make him stupid. -Not necessarily stupid. | 0:46:06 | 0:46:09 | |
-But we like to look down on American Presidents... -Incautious, perhaps. | 0:46:09 | 0:46:13 | |
..because of the way they appeal to their electorates | 0:46:13 | 0:46:17 | |
and they appeal to their electorates in ways that are too | 0:46:17 | 0:46:19 | |
populist for the British political system, and we don't like, | 0:46:19 | 0:46:23 | |
and they say things which go down very badly here. | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
But if you want to give a great boost to Mr Trump's campaign, | 0:46:26 | 0:46:31 | |
ban him from coming to the UK, | 0:46:31 | 0:46:33 | |
because it would run so badly in the US, | 0:46:33 | 0:46:36 | |
they would think the UK had no business | 0:46:36 | 0:46:38 | |
banning an American presidential candidate. | 0:46:38 | 0:46:40 | |
It would boost his support, it would mean that somebody | 0:46:40 | 0:46:43 | |
who we think it will be difficult to deal with, | 0:46:43 | 0:46:45 | |
who is friends with Mr Morgan and Mr Putin, | 0:46:45 | 0:46:47 | |
so he keeps very fine company... | 0:46:47 | 0:46:49 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
-That is a low blow, Rees-Mogg. -I meant it in a friendly way. | 0:46:53 | 0:46:58 | |
Are you likening me to the Russian dictator? Come on! | 0:46:58 | 0:47:01 | |
You are a very powerful figure. | 0:47:01 | 0:47:04 | |
The gentleman there with the spectacles and the moustache. | 0:47:04 | 0:47:06 | |
I think if he is democratically elected | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
he should not be banned from coming. | 0:47:09 | 0:47:11 | |
There is loads of leaders all over the world who have said things | 0:47:11 | 0:47:14 | |
or believe in things that we don't agree with. | 0:47:14 | 0:47:17 | |
And you think we could get on with him as President? | 0:47:17 | 0:47:19 | |
-That was what was behind the question. -Sure. | 0:47:19 | 0:47:22 | |
Because that particular aspect is one aspect of many aspects | 0:47:22 | 0:47:25 | |
that a president carries. But what I do fear, though, | 0:47:25 | 0:47:28 | |
is that if those are his genuine beliefs, | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
going back to the previous question, | 0:47:31 | 0:47:33 | |
he could then become a catalyst for radicalisation, | 0:47:33 | 0:47:38 | |
if he expresses his views in these terms. | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
And the man behind you. Yes, you, sir. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:45 | |
I was going to say that in terms of the previous | 0:47:45 | 0:47:47 | |
question about radicalisation, | 0:47:47 | 0:47:49 | |
this is a man who has got an audience of 300 million in America | 0:47:49 | 0:47:53 | |
and the world now, and he's beating his chest saying, | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
"Muslims, don't come into my country." | 0:47:56 | 0:47:59 | |
He's saying he's going to... | 0:47:59 | 0:48:01 | |
-What's he going to say...? He's going to... -Ban. -..ban mosques, | 0:48:01 | 0:48:04 | |
he's going to close mosques. | 0:48:04 | 0:48:06 | |
He's making Muslims the enemy within America. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:08 | |
CLAPPING STARTS | 0:48:08 | 0:48:09 | |
So those who are on the edge, | 0:48:09 | 0:48:12 | |
of sanity, and about to be radicalised, that's him. | 0:48:12 | 0:48:16 | |
-That's the message. -Emily Thornberry, then I'll come to you. | 0:48:16 | 0:48:19 | |
I think we have had presidents | 0:48:19 | 0:48:21 | |
in the past that have been ignorant of world affairs, | 0:48:21 | 0:48:24 | |
have not known very much about the world outside America. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 | |
We've had American presidents | 0:48:28 | 0:48:30 | |
who I don't think have been particularly bright. | 0:48:30 | 0:48:34 | |
We haven't yet had a president of the United States | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
who indulges in cheap and nasty racist slurs. | 0:48:37 | 0:48:41 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:48:41 | 0:48:44 | |
There've been quite a few who supported slavery historically. | 0:48:44 | 0:48:47 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
All right, guys. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:52 | |
In my lifetime. But it is now... | 0:48:52 | 0:48:56 | |
But the idea that we might have someone like Donald Trump | 0:48:56 | 0:48:59 | |
being President of the United States is I think frankly appalling. | 0:48:59 | 0:49:03 | |
It is appalling. Of course it will | 0:49:03 | 0:49:05 | |
affect the relationship between Britain and America. | 0:49:05 | 0:49:08 | |
If it didn't, I would think much less of this country. | 0:49:08 | 0:49:11 | |
I certainly hope that if he does get the Republican nomination, and it | 0:49:11 | 0:49:15 | |
looks like he might, | 0:49:15 | 0:49:16 | |
but who knows, their polls might be as bad as ours... | 0:49:16 | 0:49:19 | |
If he does become their nominee, Hillary Clinton | 0:49:19 | 0:49:22 | |
will become the first President of the United States, | 0:49:22 | 0:49:25 | |
and wouldn't that be fantastic? | 0:49:25 | 0:49:27 | |
The first woman President of the United States. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
And she certainly knows about world affairs, | 0:49:30 | 0:49:32 | |
she's certainly bright, she's been through the mill, | 0:49:32 | 0:49:35 | |
she's as tough as anything and she would be an excellent President. | 0:49:35 | 0:49:38 | |
You, sir, last point and we'll take | 0:49:38 | 0:49:40 | |
-another question. -Yes, as President he'd obviously be allowed in... | 0:49:40 | 0:49:44 | |
I think he just needs educating and introduced to a few Muslims over | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
here. He's got this wrong idea that certain parts of London are no-go | 0:49:47 | 0:49:50 | |
areas, where police are frightened of Muslims. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:52 | |
He just needs educating. | 0:49:52 | 0:49:55 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:49:55 | 0:49:56 | |
Maybe he should come over. | 0:49:56 | 0:49:59 | |
I think we've got time for one more question, which we must have, given | 0:49:59 | 0:50:03 | |
where we are. Duncan Reid, please. | 0:50:03 | 0:50:07 | |
Will Heathrow expansion provide the promised number of jobs, | 0:50:07 | 0:50:11 | |
and can this justify the cost to the environment? | 0:50:11 | 0:50:14 | |
This is the building of another runway at Heathrow, | 0:50:14 | 0:50:17 | |
the Prime Minister is deferring a judgment until after the summer. | 0:50:17 | 0:50:20 | |
Will it provide the jobs, can it justify the cost to the environment? | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
-What's your view? -Heathrow Airport Ltd hasn't complained that the | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
Davies Commission report has happily traded the shortening | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
of people's lives for profit. That cannot be right. | 0:50:31 | 0:50:33 | |
You think it is the shortening of people's lives for profit? | 0:50:33 | 0:50:37 | |
Who'd like to go on this on Heathrow? | 0:50:37 | 0:50:39 | |
Emily Thornberry, you were just talking, Mark Reckless, | 0:50:39 | 0:50:42 | |
-you start on this one. -Good. | 0:50:42 | 0:50:43 | |
I will start again, and be criticised for this, | 0:50:43 | 0:50:46 | |
-with a point about the European Union. -Oh, no, please! | 0:50:46 | 0:50:48 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:50:48 | 0:50:50 | |
Jose Mourinho! | 0:50:50 | 0:50:51 | |
The reason David Cameron, our Prime Minister, | 0:50:51 | 0:50:54 | |
has said he is going to delay for another six months taking a decision | 0:50:54 | 0:50:58 | |
is to see whether Heathrow could have a third runway yet still | 0:50:58 | 0:51:02 | |
meet the European Union legislation on nitrogen dioxin emissions. | 0:51:02 | 0:51:05 | |
Very dangerous, kills a lot of people, | 0:51:05 | 0:51:08 | |
partly because of all these diesel engines | 0:51:08 | 0:51:10 | |
that again the European Union has encouraged through its regulations | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
and allowed to come onto our roads | 0:51:14 | 0:51:16 | |
despite being nowhere near meeting their own... | 0:51:16 | 0:51:20 | |
-What's your answer to the question? -That's where we are on Heathrow. | 0:51:20 | 0:51:24 | |
-And that's it? -No, no-one knows if you can build a third runway, | 0:51:24 | 0:51:29 | |
because the legislation and what they pass in Europe is so unclear, | 0:51:29 | 0:51:33 | |
that this massive decision for our economy is held up. | 0:51:33 | 0:51:37 | |
What I believe and what Ukip believes is instead of expanding | 0:51:37 | 0:51:40 | |
Heathrow, we should have a second runway at Gatwick. | 0:51:40 | 0:51:43 | |
Allow Gatwick to compete with Heathrow, | 0:51:43 | 0:51:47 | |
-and that we should get on with doing it. -All right, thank you. | 0:51:47 | 0:51:50 | |
The woman in the third row. | 0:51:50 | 0:51:52 | |
What's your view? | 0:51:52 | 0:51:55 | |
I just wondered whether the panel believes that the decision on | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
Heathrow and the can being kicked down the road has got anything to | 0:51:58 | 0:52:02 | |
do with the London mayoral elections. | 0:52:02 | 0:52:08 | |
Perish the thought. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:09 | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg, you know the inside workings of the Tory party. | 0:52:09 | 0:52:12 | |
I-I wish I did. | 0:52:12 | 0:52:14 | |
I think that's a shockingly cynical view and I can't imagine such | 0:52:14 | 0:52:17 | |
a thought will have entered the Prime Minister's head. | 0:52:17 | 0:52:20 | |
But if I may answer the main question... I think we absolutely | 0:52:20 | 0:52:24 | |
ought to extend Heathrow. | 0:52:24 | 0:52:26 | |
Heathrow is THE most convenient London airport. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:30 | |
I realise in Slough this may not please everybody. | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
I used to live near Slough with the aeroplanes going over | 0:52:33 | 0:52:38 | |
and I confess they didn't prove too bothersome them. | 0:52:38 | 0:52:41 | |
-Eton, was that? -Absolutely right. I... | 0:52:41 | 0:52:44 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:52:44 | 0:52:48 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:52:48 | 0:52:51 | |
I was at school with your son. | 0:52:53 | 0:52:56 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:52:56 | 0:52:59 | |
Fantastic! | 0:52:59 | 0:53:01 | |
But I think it is crucially important economically... | 0:53:01 | 0:53:06 | |
That was a brilliant thing. | 0:53:06 | 0:53:09 | |
That's the best thing I've seen him take in a long time. | 0:53:09 | 0:53:12 | |
Let's get back to the important topic of Heathrow rather than my | 0:53:12 | 0:53:16 | |
and Henry Dimbleby's education. | 0:53:16 | 0:53:20 | |
We need a functional airport, that is close to London, | 0:53:20 | 0:53:23 | |
is well-connected, allows us to compete internationally, | 0:53:23 | 0:53:27 | |
has all the routes to China and the Far East. | 0:53:27 | 0:53:29 | |
And every project we come up with is stopped by a particle, | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
a bat, a badger or a newt. | 0:53:33 | 0:53:36 | |
-And we can't allow... -What? | 0:53:36 | 0:53:37 | |
-There is always some environmental thing. -A badger and a newt? | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
Newts stop endless building projects. | 0:53:41 | 0:53:43 | |
We can't build roads because of a newt. | 0:53:43 | 0:53:46 | |
We can't build a house because of a bat. | 0:53:46 | 0:53:48 | |
What about people and the needs of our economy of the British people? | 0:53:48 | 0:53:52 | |
OK. I want some audience views. | 0:53:52 | 0:53:54 | |
Man in the blue tie. You sir, yes. | 0:53:54 | 0:53:56 | |
Quick views from the audience. I want | 0:53:56 | 0:53:57 | |
to bring everybody in. We've only got three minutes left. Fire away. | 0:53:57 | 0:54:00 | |
Why is nobody looking at the big picture? | 0:54:00 | 0:54:04 | |
Boris has suggested an airport in the estuary, | 0:54:04 | 0:54:07 | |
and moving it there would cost a lot of money, create a lot of space, | 0:54:07 | 0:54:12 | |
very valuable real estate at Heathrow, | 0:54:12 | 0:54:16 | |
create a lot of jobs in Essex. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:19 | |
It can be connected. | 0:54:19 | 0:54:21 | |
A lot of money, but a new garden city at Heathrow will house up to | 0:54:21 | 0:54:27 | |
a quarter of a million people, a new Canary Wharf, | 0:54:27 | 0:54:30 | |
larger than that, it would be a fantastic asset. | 0:54:30 | 0:54:33 | |
-That is the long view. -Emily Thornberry, do you agree? | 0:54:33 | 0:54:36 | |
I think the Boris Island was always discredited. | 0:54:36 | 0:54:40 | |
The moment he said it, it was one of Boris's fantasies. But... | 0:54:40 | 0:54:45 | |
-He says you haven't looked at it. -Have you really studied it? | 0:54:45 | 0:54:48 | |
There were many studies of Boris Island and they would come back and | 0:54:48 | 0:54:52 | |
say to Boris, "It doesn't work." | 0:54:52 | 0:54:54 | |
Boris would say, "I will commission somebody else." Somebody else would | 0:54:54 | 0:54:58 | |
-have a look at it. It isn't viable. -Have you looked at it? | 0:54:58 | 0:55:01 | |
-So the answer... -And it is very unpopular in Rochester. | 0:55:01 | 0:55:05 | |
The answer I want to give is the fact that | 0:55:05 | 0:55:08 | |
studies show that 10,000 Londoners' lives | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
have been shortened as a result of pollution. | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
In those circumstances, it isn't a particle, it is people's lives. | 0:55:13 | 0:55:17 | |
We have seen the Supreme Court saying the area around Heathrow | 0:55:18 | 0:55:23 | |
breaches the EU air-quality directive. | 0:55:23 | 0:55:26 | |
-All right. -We have to look at that before deciding | 0:55:26 | 0:55:29 | |
whether we have another runway. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:31 | |
The woman on the gangway over there. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:34 | |
This is because of diesel. | 0:55:34 | 0:55:35 | |
If we had stuck to petrol engines we would not have this problem, | 0:55:35 | 0:55:38 | |
so we ought to re-encourage petrol and get away from diesel. | 0:55:38 | 0:55:41 | |
Can you run aeroplanes on petrol? | 0:55:41 | 0:55:43 | |
No, no, the diesel in cars, | 0:55:43 | 0:55:44 | |
causing pollution when people go to the airport. | 0:55:44 | 0:55:47 | |
-Right. -It is not the pollution from the aeroplanes. | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
OK. The woman on the gangway. | 0:55:49 | 0:55:51 | |
The expansion of Heathrow will add £100 billion to the economy | 0:55:51 | 0:55:55 | |
and the top two thirds of businesses use Heathrow to import and export. | 0:55:55 | 0:55:59 | |
Is that not helping the economy? | 0:55:59 | 0:56:02 | |
So you are in favour. All right, Piers Morgan. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:05 | |
In the time we have dithered over this and in the time it will take | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
for any decision to come after endless enquiries which establish | 0:56:08 | 0:56:12 | |
another enquiry, | 0:56:12 | 0:56:14 | |
China has built 80 new airports, | 0:56:14 | 0:56:18 | |
never mind just extra runways. | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
The reason Europe is seen to be in decline, which it indisputably | 0:56:21 | 0:56:25 | |
is around the world, is precisely because of this kind of nonsense. | 0:56:25 | 0:56:28 | |
Heathrow is a world-class airport, a massive asset to this country. | 0:56:28 | 0:56:32 | |
Frankly, we should be looking at not just one new runway, | 0:56:32 | 0:56:36 | |
probably two, and I would build another spanking new airport | 0:56:36 | 0:56:40 | |
just outside the M25 with travel into central London. | 0:56:40 | 0:56:44 | |
And I would make ourselves the European hub for anyone | 0:56:44 | 0:56:47 | |
coming from America, China, or the Middle East or wherever. | 0:56:47 | 0:56:51 | |
And I would do this fast, so we can seize the moment and not let, | 0:56:51 | 0:56:55 | |
as Willie Walsh, I saw the BA guy this week | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
saying, "We'll take our business to other countries." | 0:56:58 | 0:57:01 | |
-OK. -This is a dangerous situation for our economy. | 0:57:01 | 0:57:04 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:57:04 | 0:57:06 | |
We are over time, I'm afraid. Hannah, I'll bring you in. | 0:57:06 | 0:57:09 | |
No, no, I can't... Hannah. | 0:57:09 | 0:57:10 | |
Boris Johnson said he would lie down in front of the bulldozers | 0:57:10 | 0:57:14 | |
if it came to it. | 0:57:14 | 0:57:15 | |
If that is not a win-win, I don't know what is. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:18 | |
-Hannah. -I will solve the problem. Just bring it to Scotland. | 0:57:18 | 0:57:21 | |
Fine. On which note, thank you very much. | 0:57:21 | 0:57:24 | |
I'm sorry to those who had your hands up. | 0:57:24 | 0:57:26 | |
We're overrunning and we have to stop or we get our knuckles rapped | 0:57:26 | 0:57:30 | |
on this programme. If it were a show, | 0:57:30 | 0:57:34 | |
no doubt we'd be allowed to go on as long as we want. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:37 | |
-If it was a show, I would be hosting it! -Well, your day may come. | 0:57:37 | 0:57:43 | |
We will be in London for | 0:57:43 | 0:57:45 | |
the next programme on January 14th, | 0:57:45 | 0:57:48 | |
and Belfast the week after. | 0:57:48 | 0:57:50 | |
If you want to come, | 0:57:50 | 0:57:52 | |
you can apply through the website. | 0:57:52 | 0:57:55 | |
The address is on the screen. | 0:57:55 | 0:57:56 | |
Or you can call... | 0:57:56 | 0:57:59 | |
Radio 5 Live listeners, | 0:57:59 | 0:58:01 | |
the debate continues on Question Time Extra Time. | 0:58:01 | 0:58:04 | |
But for here, my thanks to our panel, | 0:58:04 | 0:58:06 | |
to all of you who came here to Slough to take part in this programme, | 0:58:06 | 0:58:10 | |
a very happy Christmas to everyone | 0:58:10 | 0:58:12 | |
and see you again in the New Year. Goodnight. | 0:58:12 | 0:58:14 |