17/12/2015 Question Time


17/12/2015

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Slough. On the panel are Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, Emily Thornberry MP, Mark Reckless, Hannah Bardell MP and Piers Morgan.


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Transcript


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Good evening. This is Slough and this is Question Time.

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And a big welcome, whether you're watching,

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listening on the radio,

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and, of course, to our audience here, and our panel.

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Our panel tonight is the Conservative MP for North East Somerset,

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Jacob Rees-Mogg,

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the former Tory MP who defected to Ukip

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and then lost Rochester at the last election, Mark Reckless,

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Labour's Emily Thornberry, who came unstuck in Rochester,

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sacked by Ed Miliband for tweeting a picture of a white van,

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and who's now on Jeremy Corbyn's front-bench team

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as Shadow Employment Minister,

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and one of the SNP's new MPs

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who leads for the party on business matters, Hannah Bardell,

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and the journalist and broadcaster Piers Morgan.

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APPLAUSE

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And thank you very much.

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As ever, if you want to join in the debate from home,

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you can do so - text or tweet...

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Oh, and we are on Facebook, too, now,

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so you can "like" us, if you like.

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LAUGHTER

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Our first question tonight, from Kevin Chapman, please. Kevin Chapman.

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Even if David Cameron was to get agreement in Europe,

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would his changes go far enough for a vote to stay?

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As they all sit round the table having dinner in Brussels.

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Jacob Rees-Mogg.

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No.

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I think that what has been asked for is fundamentally trivial,

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that three parts of it -

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the EU to be competitive is something the EU wants to do anyway.

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The euro ins and outs - well, the only vote they've had of this kind,

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the other euro outs didn't support us anyway,

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so there's not much to be had in that.

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The free movement of people...

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Taking that out of the preamble is entirely irrelevant.

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If the whole text of the treaty creates...

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Er, the ever-closer union, sorry, of people.

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Just taking it out of the preamble doesn't change a thing.

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The preamble is not the legal essence of the text,

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the main bulk is.

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So that leaves you with this thing on benefits.

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Now, first of all, experts have said -

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the Office of Budgetary Responsibility said,

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and the Treasury Select Committee,

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that this would not make much difference to the numbers who came.

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Secondly, I think it's a dreadful way to think of brave people

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who move halfway across a continent to come and work here

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that they're simply coming to grub for benefits. They're not.

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They're coming here to change their lives fundamentally.

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They're taking a risk,

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they're leaving their families, their friends,

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and they're doing something at great sacrifice

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to improve their life and the lives of their families.

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To say they're doing it because

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they're little better than benefits cheats

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is, I think, a really awful view of the people who come here.

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I think they come here...

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And so, to conclude,

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I think we need fundamental change

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on the free movement of people.

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We need to control our borders

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so that we are fair in our treatment of people

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who come here from India

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as opposed to people who come here from Bulgaria.

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I don't see why we have this open-door policy for the EU,

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but incredibly strict regulations on anybody else.

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So I think what is being asked for is fundamentally trivial,

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and we need to be asking for more.

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And if we don't even get what we're currently asking for

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the whole renegotiation is a waste of time.

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So when you said it was...

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APPLAUSE

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When you said what Cameron was asking for was thin gruel,

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you were declaring that you will vote out?

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Had the Prime Minister gone for a proper renegotiation,

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I could have been persuaded to vote to stay in.

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But if we stay in now, we are voting to join a full, federal Europe.

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We are staying on the pathway towards an integrated EU.

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That is what they are doing across Europe.

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We are just a little bit behind,

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but that is the route map.

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We need to pull out of that

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-and re-establish our own control of our own affairs.

-Piers Morgan.

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Piers.

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I agree with some of that.

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David Cameron has proven to be an absolutely atrocious negotiator.

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I wouldn't trust him to negotiate my purchase

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of a cheese and pickle sandwich,

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never mind our position in Europe!

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What's wrong with his negotiating style?

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Like he said, the gentleman to my left -

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he asked for very little, he's not even going to get that.

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It's humiliating.

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He will come back with a bit of paper in his hand and say,

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"Great news! I've managed to establish

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"that English people can carry on speaking English.

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"It's a huge victory and I'm a triumph."

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And that's basically what this comes down to.

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He will have achieved nothing

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even if he achieves what he's trying to achieve.

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So I think it's very embarrassing for our country.

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I think he has let us down in the negotiating room.

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Clearly, the Germans and the French in particular look at him...

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You know, in a poker game, they've called his bluff.

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And, unfortunately, they hold all the aces.

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And so... Look, I'm a European.

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We're all... Most of us here, I'd imagine, are Europeans.

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As John Major said the other day on the Today show,

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which I thought was a perfect way of describing this,

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it's the worst possible time,

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isn't it, for England to go back to being Little England,

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detached from the European Union

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when we're facing this chronic migration issue,

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which has to be resolved,

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and we're also facing the worst terror threat

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that we have faced in my lifetime.

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Is it not the issue as well, though,

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that he is doing the two at the same time.

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That instead of standing up to Ukip

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and standing up to the Euro-sceptics

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and saying, "Actually, no,

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"we're going to have a negotiation first,"

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he's trying to do that and come home and placate people at home

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with an EU referendum.

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He's trying to achieve a pyrrhic victory,

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which - even if he achieves it - as Jacob said, is meaningless,

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but I don't think he'll even achieve that.

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Hannah, what do you think he should have done? What should he be doing?

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I think he should've been making the positive case for Europe,

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negotiating on that basis.

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Because he's gone to Europe

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and just really annoyed everybody over there.

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Because they know he's back home trying to...

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He's essentially trying to face both ways.

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There are many, many positive aspects to remaining within Europe.

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It brings huge business, particularly in Scotland,

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we have...and across the UK,

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billions of pounds of investment reliant upon the EU.

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There is a positive case to be made for that.

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But what he has not done is made that positive case.

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And I'm not normally likely to agree with Piers, but I do...

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Really? Why?

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-We were getting on very well in the Green Room.

-We were, yeah.

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What's the matter with you?

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But...there is a point here that he's doing it in a way

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that is with one hand tied behind his back.

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He should've stood up, been stronger.

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Do you think the result will be

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that England votes "out"?

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If you go by the polls just now,

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we could be in the position that England votes to come out

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and then the devolved nations, other nations of the United Kingdom,

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including Scotland, are taken out of Europe against its will.

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We should have a quad-lock.

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We should be in a position that those other nations get a say.

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And Alan Johnston has said he could see a reason why people would be

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particularly upset in a devolved nation.

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And Nicola Sturgeon said in effect there'd be

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another referendum from Scotland if Britain pulled out.

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She's said that we would look at the conditions

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under which any future referendum would be held.

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But it could be... You have to go by what your people feel.

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And, ultimately, at the moment,

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the majority of people in Scotland are pro staying in Europe.

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OK. Let's come to some members of the audience, then I'll come to you.

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Man in the front here. Yes.

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What I want to know, and the British people want to know,

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is will there ever be a situation

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where David Cameron can renegotiate a free movement of people?

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Emily Thornberry, what do you think?

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I don't think you can renegotiate a free movement of people.

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I think the European Union is based on the idea

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of free movement of people and goods.

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I think that's kind of fundamental to it.

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There's a Schengen agreement within Europe

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which means that people can move freely around Europe

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without needing to show their passports.

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Now, clearly, if Europe are going to keep that

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on the Continent of Europe,

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they need to do a great deal more in sharing security information.

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Because you can't have people moving from Brussels to France

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and the security services not passing information on.

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So it seems to me that they need to do a lot more work on Schengen.

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We're not part of Schengen.

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You still have to show a passport to come into Britain.

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But, nevertheless, the EU is based on that and that is how it is.

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But I just don't think that we are in a position as a country

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to start cutting ourselves off from the rest of the world.

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As the world gets smaller,

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as we get closer to one another,

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I think the idea of Britain sailing off into the Atlantic,

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and losing...possibly losing Scotland

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and becoming Little Englanders

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is something which deeply worries me.

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I think that David Cameron is playing games

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with the future of this country.

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I think he's doing that in order to be able to keep...

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to ride the many-headed tiger that is the Tory Party!

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I think there are Conservatives who will never be placated.

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Some might be, but he's prepared to have a gamble,

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and it's with our future.

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And, actually, part of being in Europe is about jobs.

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It's about growth.

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It's about investment.

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In Slough, there are more, I think, international HQs

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than in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland put together.

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Slough is an internationalist place

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and actually it benefits from being part of the European Union.

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We have to be realistic about this. I'm not saying it's perfect.

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I think there's lots of things that should be changed.

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And what I would do is say that we are part of Europe,

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we are Europeans, and we want to get together with other people

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who think the same way and be able to change it.

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For example, with state aid.

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If you want to spend state money

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you need to make sure you get as much bang for your buck as possible.

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So if you're having a contract with an employer,

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you can say, "Right, we're going to give you a government contract

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"but we expect you to have a certain number of apprentices,

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"a certain number of local people,

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"we expect you to train people up."

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At the moment, the European Union rules are very hazy about that.

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We need to be negotiating things

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like that for the sake of the country.

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Let's go back to where we are,

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with the negotiations going on today and tomorrow.

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The man up there in spectacles, what do you think?

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To go back to your earlier point -

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couldn't we be like Switzerland and be successful outside the EU?

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APPLAUSE

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You, sir, in the front. Yes.

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All the defence of Europe is a defence of the economy.

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What about the defence of society?

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I think that's what people are more concerned about.

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Can you go a bit further? Explain what you mean?

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If you talk to older people - older than even I am -

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they are very, very concerned about the changes

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that are happening to our country.

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Now, time and again the argument is based around the economy.

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It's not based around British society itself

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and the values that Britain stands for.

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So the... Immigration...

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I... The implication is,

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immigration is the thing you need to control? Is that what you mean?

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I don't personally believe it's something we need to control,

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but I do believe that that is a major concern in our society.

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And you in the front row.

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I agree with what the panel members who've spoken already have said

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but I really think David Cameron is alienating a lot of other nations

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in what he's going to do tonight.

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I think there's a lot of things wrong with the EU,

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as all the members of the panel have said,

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and what he's doing is actually going backwards, at the moment.

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He really needs to be trying to build those relationships

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in a means to make the EU better.

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-I think that really needs to happen.

-Before I come to Mark Reckless,

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does anybody here approve of what the Prime Minister's doing,

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or trying to achieve in Brussels?

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Would speak up for it? Yes, you, sir.

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-Wow, one hand!

-Or two.

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Well, it's best to be alone than have no representation whatsoever.

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-PIERS MORGAN LAUGHS

-Quite right.

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I certainly would agree with him,

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because it is not an easy task for him.

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He is trying his utmost, his very best

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to come up with whatever good is required for this country.

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In that respect I would say, yes, he is doing his best.

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And do you think the vote will go in favour... The question was -

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if he gets what he's going to try and get,

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that will get Britain voting to stay in. Do you agree with that?

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I would still want to see a referendum, nonetheless.

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Mark Reckless.

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He's virtually asked for nothing

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and it's not even clear he's going to get that.

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I'm sure at the last moment he'll bring some sort of rabbit

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out of the hat and all his fellow leaders

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and some of the media will big up what he's supposedly achieved.

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But I think what David Cameron has shown with this renegotiation

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is not what he wanted, of pretending that somehow

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the European Union was going to be better in the future

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rather than voting on what we know it to be.

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But he has shown just how little influence this country has.

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Since he was elected as Prime Minister he has voted 40 times

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against measures in the Council of Ministers in the European Union.

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And every single one of those 40 times he has been outvoted.

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And now, at the time when our leverage in Europe should be greater

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than any other, when we're about to have this referendum,

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and the polls are so close - even then, rather than actually

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giving even the minimum that he's asking for,

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Europe is saying, "No, that's not the way we do it,

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"it's not in our interest.

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"We want to go in this different direction."

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I think we need to recognise that if other countries...

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the European Union wants to be this ever-closer union,

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wants to become 27 or 28 countries that become essentially one

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for the key tasks of a state, then that is not for us.

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I think there's no shame in that.

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We should have friendly relations with the European Union,

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we should have free trade with them, but we don't want to spend

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£55 million a day to have 27 other countries

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make laws for us that we could much better make for ourselves.

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We need to lift our eyes to the horizon

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and trade freely with the whole world,

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not focus on one declining continent of it.

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APPLAUSE

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Philip Markwick, you had a question about this.

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I'm just interested in your take on this.

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Do you think the other countries of the EU are being unreasonable?

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-I'll ask the question.

-Yeah.

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The UK seems to have reasonable requests.

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Why is the EU flirting with a Brexit?

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The UK seems to have reasonable requests.

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Why are they flirting, Jacob Rees-Mogg?

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Why would they risk Britain leaving?

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Well, I'm afraid my view is it's all a great charade,

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that we've asked for so little and they're just making a fuss about

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one thing so that when we get one little bit of it,

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everyone will say, "Fantastic triumph!"

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"Glory for the great British leadership!" "Hail to the chief!"

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But I think it's all an absolute stitch-up.

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I imagine this was agreed a long time ago.

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If one reads the papers it basically comes down to,

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"Does Mrs Merkel approve?"

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If the Chancellor of Germany approves, we'll get it.

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And a few months ago it looked as if she did.

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I expect that after a long session

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we will get most of this fiddly little thing on benefits.

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The other three are just not serious things to ask for.

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They are no-change, the gentleman's absolutely right.

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The European Council is not flirting with Brexit.

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It's going to allow us to appear to have a phoney victory and

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I don't think the British electorate will be fooled this time

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in the way they were in 1975

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when they were told there had been major changes

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and there hadn't been any changes at all.

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How many Tories will be on your side of the argument, do you think,

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if he does come back with what you call a phoney fix?

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I think the numbers are growing every day.

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We get bigger and stronger! I think if you talk to...

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APPLAUSE

0:16:220:16:23

If you talk to fellow Conservative MPs, a lot of them are very cautious

0:16:230:16:27

on this renegotiation.

0:16:270:16:30

They are perhaps more... dutiful than I am.

0:16:300:16:34

Duty and loyalty are very attractive qualities which

0:16:340:16:37

I probably ought to have more of to the leader of our party.

0:16:370:16:40

But I think as we get closer to the referendum

0:16:400:16:42

more and more people will make their views clear.

0:16:420:16:45

If you go to the Conservative Party in the country at large,

0:16:450:16:47

and Conservative associations, they make me look like a pro-European,

0:16:470:16:51

so I know exactly where the Tory Party is.

0:16:510:16:54

Isn't the problem here, though, that we're basically,

0:16:540:16:56

because of Cameron's behaviour over this renegotiation,

0:16:560:17:00

we are basically drifting into a potential scenario where, actually,

0:17:000:17:03

we may have a referendum which leads to us leaving the European Union?

0:17:030:17:07

-Yes. I know.

-It doesn't get much more serious,

0:17:070:17:10

particularly if that then triggers

0:17:100:17:12

Scotland, which is very pro-European - in my view quite rightly -

0:17:120:17:16

then says, "Sod that for a game of soldiers,

0:17:160:17:19

"we're out of the United Kingdom."

0:17:190:17:21

So this is actually very big stakes and not a time for

0:17:210:17:26

the British Prime Minister, in my view, to be playing silly games,

0:17:260:17:29

which is what I think he's doing, a lot of this audience

0:17:290:17:32

clearly share that view, but more importantly

0:17:320:17:35

-so do the other members of the European Union.

-That's right.

0:17:350:17:37

I think that...

0:17:370:17:39

-Let's face it, they are probably right.

-But they talk about it...

0:17:390:17:42

Some people talk about it as if it's going to be some sort of

0:17:420:17:45

amicable divorce, as if you could have Britain

0:17:450:17:48

as one party and Europe as the other party - it's not like that.

0:17:480:17:51

It's like... We're all thinking about Christmas,

0:17:510:17:53

a group of brothers and sisters meeting up

0:17:530:17:56

and one strops off. What happens?

0:17:560:17:58

The others continue and they don't have anything to do with them.

0:17:580:18:01

People talk about Switzerland, why can't we be like Switzerland?

0:18:010:18:05

I don't know if you remember the Prime Minister of Norway saying,

0:18:050:18:08

"We're outside Europe and what happens is

0:18:080:18:11

"we get faxed information on what it is we are supposed to do

0:18:110:18:14

"if we want to engage with Europe, and trade with Europe."

0:18:140:18:18

We don't need to be told from the Continent of Europe

0:18:180:18:21

how we trade with Europe,

0:18:210:18:24

we need to be absolutely right there.

0:18:240:18:26

It's not right for Mark to say,

0:18:260:18:28

why can't we just trade with the rest of the world?

0:18:280:18:30

Our biggest trading partner is the rest of Europe. Let's get real.

0:18:300:18:34

-APPLAUSE

-We would be in the worst possible...

0:18:340:18:36

You. Young man there. Yep.

0:18:360:18:39

I'm an A-level politics student studying the Constitution

0:18:390:18:43

and the doctrine of parliamentary sovereignty,

0:18:430:18:46

and I find it disgraceful that our politicians throughout

0:18:460:18:49

the last 30 years or so have eroded the doctrine of parliamentary

0:18:490:18:54

sovereignty without even asking the people.

0:18:540:18:57

APPLAUSE

0:18:570:19:00

The man in the red pullover, there. You, sir.

0:19:010:19:04

I ask the panel, do they believe that the majority of

0:19:040:19:08

the English public have enough knowledge

0:19:080:19:11

and information and understanding of the EU to make a vote

0:19:110:19:17

constructively, or will they just be emotional votes?

0:19:170:19:21

APPLAUSE What do you think?

0:19:210:19:23

All the people I've spoken to - some of them are well educated

0:19:250:19:30

and some aren't - it's going to be emotional.

0:19:300:19:33

I trust the people, as I do at general elections,

0:19:330:19:35

that the British people in their votes get good governments

0:19:350:19:40

again and again, and the governments that they want.

0:19:400:19:42

I think the mass decisions of millions of people actually are

0:19:420:19:47

better at getting the right answers than a few of the elite.

0:19:470:19:50

So I trust the people against the establishment.

0:19:500:19:54

The gentleman makes a very good point about engagement

0:19:540:19:56

and I think that is exactly right. The opportunity to engage

0:19:560:19:59

and be educated positively

0:19:590:20:00

about the issue that's going to be put in front of you.

0:20:000:20:03

We did that in Scotland at the referendum,

0:20:030:20:06

we inspired a nation, you could say.

0:20:060:20:08

Whether you were for or against,

0:20:080:20:11

the fact that we asked people the big questions,

0:20:110:20:13

we gave them the opportunity to be in charge of their future

0:20:130:20:16

in a democratic way.

0:20:160:20:18

Unfortunately, that's not what is happening here

0:20:180:20:20

and it's not going to be that kind of referendum,

0:20:200:20:23

because we are running out of time.

0:20:230:20:25

The only advantage I can see that I've got out of it,

0:20:250:20:28

that I've seen as a real advantage, that I understand,

0:20:280:20:31

I don't have to keep changing my money when I go on holiday.

0:20:310:20:34

LAUGHTER

0:20:340:20:36

The crux of what I was getting at is, do you think the Prime Minister

0:20:360:20:40

is pursuing a negotiation in good faith or not?

0:20:400:20:45

-No.

-No.

0:20:450:20:46

I certainly think the Prime Minister is acting in good faith, yes.

0:20:460:20:49

-Do you?

-Of course I do.

-I don't think he is.

0:20:490:20:51

He doesn't want to be quoted saying anything else

0:20:510:20:54

but he doesn't mean that.

0:20:540:20:55

I would say that privately. I trust the Prime Minister.

0:20:550:20:58

You'd say something in private that you actually said in public?

0:20:580:21:01

I always do. I am very unusual.

0:21:010:21:02

That is a very unusual thing for a politician.

0:21:020:21:04

I have always trusted the Prime Minister,

0:21:040:21:07

I continue to trust his... good faith.

0:21:070:21:10

He is doing his best as he sees it,

0:21:100:21:12

but I fundamentally disagree with the approach he's taking.

0:21:120:21:14

Jacob, I don't trust the Prime Minister.

0:21:140:21:18

You may remember a session when we were both Conservative MPs,

0:21:180:21:20

and I asked the Prime Minister a question about

0:21:200:21:23

the European Arrest Warrant. He'd previously argued against it.

0:21:230:21:26

He then turned round, and with apparent sincerity

0:21:260:21:29

said that there was no other way in order to tackle terrorists,

0:21:290:21:33

and we had to go down this path.

0:21:330:21:36

He promised a vote in the House of Commons on that

0:21:360:21:39

before the by-election which I fought, and he broke his word on it.

0:21:390:21:42

What he is doing with this renegotiation, or he's trying to do,

0:21:420:21:45

is choreographing it,

0:21:450:21:46

so as well as being the captain of one of the teams,

0:21:460:21:49

he gets to set the rules of this referendum, and that isn't right.

0:21:490:21:52

I wanted to take up a point about the devolved administrations

0:21:520:21:54

and what we heard from Hannah. What the SNP did is

0:21:540:21:57

it argued there was going to be this sort of honey and sunlit uplands

0:21:570:22:01

for Scotland because the oil price would be at 120 a barrel forever.

0:22:010:22:05

In fact it's at 40.

0:22:050:22:06

The idea that we vote to leave the European Union,

0:22:060:22:09

that the Scots feel so strongly about this,

0:22:090:22:11

and the case for independence, as Hannah would claim, is so strong,

0:22:110:22:14

it is absolutely preposterous to believe that Scotland would

0:22:140:22:17

vote for independence when the black hole in its finances is so enormous.

0:22:170:22:21

As far as Wales is concerned, we actually saw a poll recently

0:22:210:22:25

in Wales that saw more people voting to leave the European Union

0:22:250:22:28

than wanting to remain. So we can come out as a United Kingdom

0:22:280:22:32

and once again govern ourselves.

0:22:320:22:34

APPLAUSE

0:22:340:22:36

He says there's no risk to the union.

0:22:360:22:39

I'm glad he gave me the opportunity to speak about the oil price,

0:22:390:22:42

because it is something that has been peddled out

0:22:420:22:46

by the Unionist parties and the anti-European people, Euro-sceptics

0:22:460:22:49

time and time and again. Let's be very clear,

0:22:490:22:52

Scotland's economy is just as strong and we are just as well off

0:22:520:22:56

as the rest of the UK, per head of population, without oil and gas.

0:22:560:22:59

Now, nobody got it right on the oil price.

0:22:590:23:02

The OBR's forecast was actually further out than the one

0:23:020:23:06

that we had in the white paper, but let's be clear,

0:23:060:23:09

the whole point of having independence

0:23:090:23:11

and having control over your own affairs,

0:23:110:23:13

whether that's as a nation or as a region, is that you have the control

0:23:130:23:16

and the ability to do with your resources what you feel is right.

0:23:160:23:20

And in 2011, the Coalition Government,

0:23:200:23:22

as described by the local Chamber of Commerce,

0:23:220:23:25

committed "a drive-by shooting" on the oil and gas industry

0:23:250:23:28

by hiking up taxes. There's not been a stable tax regime.

0:23:280:23:31

We would put in place a stable tax regime

0:23:310:23:33

and we would manage it in an appropriate way.

0:23:330:23:36

If you want this independence for Scotland,

0:23:360:23:38

why do you want the UK to be ruled by Brussels?

0:23:380:23:41

Surely there's an inconsistency.

0:23:410:23:43

APPLAUSE

0:23:430:23:44

All right, all right. OK.

0:23:480:23:49

Surely the United Kingdom as a whole is much more able

0:23:490:23:52

to be independent than Scotland.

0:23:520:23:54

Well, no, because you have not advocated well for us

0:23:540:23:58

-at European level.

-We'll take it one step at a time.

0:23:580:24:01

We've got the negotiations, then the referendum

0:24:010:24:03

and then we'll have, no doubt, questions, depending on what happens.

0:24:030:24:06

But it'll be good for Labour and the SNP to be campaigning together

0:24:060:24:09

to be able to be part of a union of nations.

0:24:090:24:12

I look forward to that.

0:24:120:24:14

If Labour could unite on anything, that would be good!

0:24:140:24:17

All right. Let's go on, cos we've spent a lot of time on that.

0:24:170:24:20

We're back after Christmas, I should say.

0:24:200:24:22

This is our last programme before Christmas. Well, it had better be!

0:24:220:24:26

We're back on 14th January, and we're going to be in London on the 14th,

0:24:260:24:29

in Limehouse,

0:24:290:24:31

and the following week we're going to be in Belfast,

0:24:310:24:34

and the details are on the screen of how to apply.

0:24:340:24:37

I want to take another question now, let's take this one.

0:24:370:24:39

Hannah Ishaq, please.

0:24:390:24:40

Do you think our military involvement in Syria

0:24:400:24:43

is contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK?

0:24:430:24:46

Do you think our military involvement in Syria

0:24:460:24:49

is contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK?

0:24:490:24:54

Hannah Bardell.

0:24:540:24:55

Yes, I think there is a very good chance that it is.

0:24:560:25:00

I have to say, as a new MP, sitting in the House that night

0:25:000:25:03

that we voted to bomb Syria was pretty devastating, actually.

0:25:030:25:07

I believe that I voted the right way,

0:25:070:25:10

not to bomb Syria, because the reality...

0:25:100:25:13

The reality is that there are a whole number of countries

0:25:180:25:22

already bombing Syria.

0:25:220:25:23

So to go in there just to join in, just to do something,

0:25:230:25:26

it's as if we had to do something because nothing wasn't an option.

0:25:260:25:30

Nobody was suggesting nothing.

0:25:300:25:31

We were very supportive of the Vienna agreement,

0:25:310:25:34

which was about sensible transition to a stable government,

0:25:340:25:38

which was about engaging and working with international partners,

0:25:380:25:41

something that the UN was very keen on.

0:25:410:25:44

But what many people that have come out of Syria have said

0:25:440:25:46

is that bombing is not going to solve the problem.

0:25:460:25:49

It will only marginalise...

0:25:490:25:50

The question is, is it contributing to radicalisation?

0:25:500:25:54

We are attacking an ideology,

0:25:540:25:56

we are not just attacking individual fighters on the ground.

0:25:560:25:59

We are going after an ideology, and it is so important

0:25:590:26:03

that we have to try and understand that and hit it at its heart.

0:26:030:26:06

So, stop the flow of money that is coming through oil,

0:26:060:26:09

attack their cyber and digital technology.

0:26:090:26:13

None of that's being done. We're not even bombing Raqqa.

0:26:130:26:15

The Prime Minister stood up on 2nd December

0:26:150:26:17

and said, "We're going to hit them where it hurts,

0:26:170:26:20

"we're going to hit them in Raqqa," and the Defence Secretary

0:26:200:26:23

has already reeled back from that and said,

0:26:230:26:25

"We'll get round to it when we find a strategy,

0:26:250:26:27

"and we've worked out what we're going to do."

0:26:270:26:29

You're answering a different question.

0:26:290:26:31

The question is, is what we're doing in Syria

0:26:310:26:33

contributing to the radicalisation of Muslims in the UK?

0:26:330:26:36

Yes, because I think people feel that they are...

0:26:360:26:39

there's going to be more displaced people, more chaos on the ground.

0:26:390:26:45

But I also think that Muslims in the UK will realise that...

0:26:450:26:51

you know, as everybody does,

0:26:510:26:53

that the extremists are nothing to do with Islam.

0:26:530:26:56

They're nothing to do with the Muslim tradition,

0:26:560:26:59

and we have to call them out for what they are. Daesh are terrorists.

0:26:590:27:03

They are a faction, and they have nothing to do with that religion.

0:27:030:27:07

-Jacob Rees-Mogg.

-Erm...

0:27:080:27:10

I think it's a very interesting question,

0:27:120:27:14

to which there is no very straightforward answer.

0:27:140:27:17

There are certainly examples historically when

0:27:170:27:20

the counterterrorist actions that are taken

0:27:200:27:23

lead to greater activity by the terrorists.

0:27:230:27:25

That is known from our experience in Northern Ireland,

0:27:250:27:28

where the early response, particularly internment,

0:27:280:27:31

led to greater support in the LOCAL community for terrorism.

0:27:310:27:35

Why I don't think it's the case now is that the radicalisation

0:27:350:27:40

of SOME people in this country predates our bombing of Syria

0:27:400:27:44

by quite a considerable time, so there was already this risk,

0:27:440:27:47

and relatively small numbers of people going to Syria

0:27:470:27:51

from the United Kingdom to be involved in that particular fight.

0:27:510:27:55

I don't think the bombing over the last two weeks has had a particular

0:27:550:27:59

effect on that. But I also think, as the more general point,

0:27:590:28:03

the effect you get of a crackdown on terrorism is more likely to be

0:28:030:28:06

domestic than it is to be international.

0:28:060:28:08

So on balance I think, no.

0:28:080:28:11

OK. What do you think, Hannah?

0:28:110:28:14

I don't think it'd be fair to just be looking at Syria here.

0:28:140:28:16

If we look at London itself, only recently there was an attack

0:28:160:28:20

on the Tube, so, from it happening in Syria,

0:28:200:28:22

it's always going to affect what's happening back home.

0:28:220:28:25

Also, the people who did the bombing in France, they weren't Syrian.

0:28:250:28:30

They were born in Europe, so we need to look at

0:28:300:28:33

what's happening at home before we attack anywhere else.

0:28:330:28:37

APPLAUSE

0:28:370:28:39

So you think it is a contribution, in other words?

0:28:390:28:42

I think it certainly contributes.

0:28:420:28:44

There are people who already have an ideology in the Middle East,

0:28:440:28:47

or even here, who think the West are evil,

0:28:470:28:50

or the West are having such a negative impact on them,

0:28:500:28:52

so by the West actually confirming their suspicions,

0:28:520:28:56

-they're only going to be more radical.

-Emily Thornberry.

0:28:560:28:58

I think there is something about some of the wars

0:28:580:29:01

that have taken place in the Middle East,

0:29:010:29:04

and a feeling amongst some people that Western lives

0:29:040:29:07

are more important than the lives of Muslim people in the Middle East.

0:29:070:29:11

And I think that...

0:29:110:29:13

So you will have the Prime Minister, for example,

0:29:130:29:16

talking about a city as being the head of a snake,

0:29:160:29:19

and if you're bombing that city

0:29:190:29:21

there will be civilians who will be killed, but

0:29:210:29:23

not talking about those civilians and not being aware of that.

0:29:230:29:27

Which is why I was not prepared to vote for the bombing of Syria,

0:29:270:29:30

because I felt that it just simply wasn't part

0:29:300:29:33

of a strategy that made any sense.

0:29:330:29:35

I don't think you should go into a country and destabilise it

0:29:350:29:38

even more than it is, and then walk away again

0:29:380:29:41

and think that your own country is going to be safer.

0:29:410:29:43

Because I think if you look at where we have been involved

0:29:430:29:46

in military action over the last few years,

0:29:460:29:48

we have not necessarily made those countries any more stable,

0:29:480:29:51

or made ourselves any safer.

0:29:510:29:53

I think the alienation and feeling among some people,

0:29:530:29:56

you know, who have gone through Ramadan,

0:29:560:29:58

who have gone through starving along with Muslims across the world, and

0:29:580:30:02

who feel that there are some people in Britain who just don't consider

0:30:020:30:05

some lives as being as important as others,

0:30:050:30:07

and that is obviously completely wrong.

0:30:070:30:09

We have to be really clear about that,

0:30:090:30:12

you know, we have to be really clear about what we're doing

0:30:120:30:14

and why we do it. There are many other reasons,

0:30:140:30:17

I think, for the radicalisation of people.

0:30:170:30:19

I don't think that it is to do with wars.

0:30:190:30:22

-I think there's also making sure...

-Surely... Sorry.

0:30:220:30:25

The main reason, surely, for the start of radicalisation,

0:30:250:30:28

I suspect in Britain and many other countries,

0:30:280:30:31

was the senseless, illegal war in Iraq.

0:30:310:30:34

APPLAUSE

0:30:340:30:36

The reason I think... It's really important to understand

0:30:390:30:42

the history here. You know, when we went to war in Iraq,

0:30:420:30:45

on completely bogus claims about weapons of mass destruction,

0:30:450:30:48

and we did so, in my view, illegally,

0:30:480:30:51

what we did was we created a hornet's nest

0:30:510:30:54

which we then didn't try and repair.

0:30:540:30:56

And we just decamped and we let Iraq burn.

0:30:560:30:59

And through that burning came Isis, who were basically representing

0:30:590:31:03

a bunch of people who'd been bombed and were poor and desperate

0:31:030:31:09

and thinking, we need something we can attach ourselves to.

0:31:090:31:12

That's where this all started.

0:31:120:31:14

But that doesn't mean that the military action in Syria is wrong,

0:31:140:31:18

because let's ask ourselves why we sent in airpower when we did.

0:31:180:31:22

We did it after the absolutely appalling scenes

0:31:220:31:26

on the streets of Paris, where Isis bombed football stadiums,

0:31:260:31:30

they bombed restaurants, they bombed music concert venues.

0:31:300:31:34

They tried to attack every form of Western life.

0:31:340:31:37

-If that had happened...

-How is bombing them going to help that?

0:31:370:31:40

-That's inflammatory.

-Let me explain.

0:31:400:31:42

There is a multifaceted way that you deal with an enemy like Isis.

0:31:420:31:46

They are not like Al-Qaeda,

0:31:460:31:47

they are a geographic territorial ambition group.

0:31:470:31:51

They want to take over states.

0:31:510:31:53

They want the world to become an Islamic State in their likeness,

0:31:530:31:58

which is a terrifying prospect, by the way.

0:31:580:32:00

Is it effective, deciding to extend the bombing to Syria?

0:32:000:32:03

I think you have to do something. These people will stop at nothing.

0:32:030:32:06

You see, politicians who want to be seen to be doing something...

0:32:060:32:09

-Let me finish.

-..are politicians you should be very worried about.

0:32:090:32:12

-I heard what you said.

-They have to have a plan.

0:32:120:32:14

No, this is the plan, I think.

0:32:140:32:16

From a military point of view, if you're going to combat these people

0:32:160:32:19

on the ground, which is... they're in Syria and Iraq,

0:32:190:32:22

you have to do it in a multifaceted way. You attack the money -

0:32:220:32:25

they've got trillions of dollars coming in from their oil revenues,

0:32:250:32:28

for starters. A lot of it from the very people that we're siding with,

0:32:280:32:32

so it's a ludicrous load of hypocrisy.

0:32:320:32:34

You've got to attack them politically, diplomatically,

0:32:340:32:37

and when it comes to military action you've got to have, in my view,

0:32:370:32:40

and it was promising to see the start of this at the Saudi-led

0:32:400:32:44

coalition this week, where they may put boots on the ground,

0:32:440:32:47

Arab boots on the ground, to combat what is an Arab problem,

0:32:470:32:51

but we need to support them with airpower

0:32:510:32:52

because we have sophisticated airpower.

0:32:520:32:54

-Are you saying...

-You can't win it without airpower.

0:32:540:32:57

Are you saying that it's not contributing to the radicalisation of

0:32:570:33:00

Muslims here in Britain, which is what Hannah's question was?

0:33:000:33:03

I think what is happening in Syria is now a trigger for it being

0:33:030:33:06

used as an excuse, but the genuine radicalisation started from Iraq,

0:33:060:33:09

-and that should never have happened.

-Fine.

0:33:090:33:11

The woman there in the centre has been patiently waiting.

0:33:110:33:15

I think obviously our aggressive foreign policy is

0:33:150:33:19

a contributing factor, but don't you think that a large problem is,

0:33:190:33:24

look at the people who are voting to take this action.

0:33:240:33:26

It's white middle-class men.

0:33:260:33:30

There's no good examples for Muslim children.

0:33:300:33:33

I was speaking to a leader of a Muslim school in Slough

0:33:330:33:36

recently who told me that he invited a police officer

0:33:360:33:40

with a big beard to come and meet the children

0:33:400:33:42

to show them that they do have opportunities

0:33:420:33:45

in this country, because I don't think that they believe they do.

0:33:450:33:49

All right. The man behind you was shaking his head, I think.

0:33:490:33:51

Immediately behind you, as you started speaking. Yes, you, sir.

0:33:510:33:54

Yes, I think we're fundamentally missing the point.

0:33:540:33:57

I think Isis and Al-Qaeda are

0:33:570:33:59

a vehicle for this particular ideology.

0:33:590:34:02

What we have to do is tackle the root of where this ideology

0:34:020:34:06

stems from, and it's agreed that this strain...

0:34:060:34:09

this stream of Islam is

0:34:090:34:11

called Wahhabism from Saudi Arabia,

0:34:110:34:13

and it's Saudi Arabia which has been exporting and funding

0:34:130:34:17

this type of ideology.

0:34:170:34:19

And the fact is the UK and the West have a very close relationship

0:34:190:34:24

with Saudi Arabia, so that's where the root of the ideology

0:34:240:34:29

and the root of the problem is coming from,

0:34:290:34:31

and before we deal with that...

0:34:310:34:34

that's where we need to look at first.

0:34:340:34:37

OK. And you up there. APPLAUSE

0:34:370:34:40

The woman there. Yes.

0:34:420:34:43

Yeah. We are taught, like, from pretty much as soon as

0:34:430:34:46

we can walk and talk that violence isn't the answer,

0:34:460:34:49

so you go in, you spend £100,000 on bombing a country

0:34:490:34:55

but have no money to help the hundreds and thousands of people

0:34:550:35:00

that are now fleeing that country... it doesn't make any sense to me.

0:35:000:35:04

You go in and we are portraying ourselves as these people who

0:35:040:35:09

bomb a country to prevent people from being angry at us.

0:35:090:35:15

It doesn't make any sense. We are planning... We are planning...

0:35:150:35:20

No, we're trying to stop them beheading people

0:35:200:35:23

and stoning gays to death, and marauding around committing

0:35:230:35:26

the atrocities we saw on the streets of Paris.

0:35:260:35:29

-You're not going to stop...

-APPLAUSE

0:35:290:35:31

At some point you've got to stand up to these people.

0:35:310:35:34

And you've got to defeat them militarily.

0:35:340:35:36

Mark Reckless. Stop all talking at once. Mark Reckless.

0:35:360:35:39

I think people who've been making these decisions have really

0:35:390:35:42

been all over the place. I was listening

0:35:420:35:44

to Emily just now saying

0:35:440:35:45

we shouldn't just vote to bomb without any plan,

0:35:450:35:48

and how...now under Jeremy Corbyn she's against bombing IS in Syria,

0:35:480:35:52

but unless I'm much mistaken,

0:35:520:35:54

Emily, you voted previously for bombing IS in Iraq,

0:35:540:35:58

and before that you voted to intervene by bombing in Libya,

0:35:580:36:01

-from which we're still suffering the consequences.

-And I can...

0:36:010:36:04

Yeah, yeah.

0:36:040:36:06

And I tell you what... I tell you what happened, was

0:36:060:36:08

when we were asked by the Iraqis...

0:36:080:36:11

Iraq is a mess, and I agree with Piers

0:36:110:36:13

that Iraq is a mess after we have gone in.

0:36:130:36:16

But I was on the demonstrations against being involved in Iraq,

0:36:160:36:20

I was completely against the Iraq war,

0:36:200:36:22

but the fact is we went in and Iraq is now the country it is

0:36:220:36:26

largely as a result of our actions.

0:36:260:36:28

And so if the Iraqi government asks for our help to fight Isis,

0:36:280:36:32

and they have boots on the ground, and have their own troops,

0:36:320:36:35

then in those circumstances, yes, we back them up.

0:36:350:36:37

Completely different to Syria,

0:36:370:36:39

where they don't even have any boots on the ground.

0:36:390:36:41

We're talking about the effect. I must bring you back to the point.

0:36:410:36:44

The question was about the effect of these things on domestic

0:36:440:36:47

Muslim people in this country and whether they feel...

0:36:470:36:51

whether the accumulation particularly of Syria is a further radicalisation.

0:36:510:36:56

To an extent it does have an effect, and I suspect it will be mixed.

0:36:560:36:59

Some people will react differently

0:36:590:37:01

and some people will pervert their religion

0:37:010:37:03

and they haven't succeeded in other parts of their life

0:37:030:37:06

and they will jump on this as the thing

0:37:060:37:08

that can give them significance.

0:37:080:37:10

But it's the same whether it's Islamic State in Iraq or in Syria.

0:37:100:37:13

-No, it's not.

-And what we hear from the Prime Minister,

0:37:130:37:16

it's like he thinks this is unfinished business,

0:37:160:37:18

that we had this vote that he lost before to bomb Syria.

0:37:180:37:21

But that time he was trying to bomb the regime, Assad.

0:37:210:37:24

Now he's trying to bomb the other side, IS,

0:37:240:37:26

who are fighting AGAINST Assad.

0:37:260:37:28

And you, sir, in the spectacles there. Third row. Yes, you.

0:37:280:37:32

There is a gigantic chasm between peer-reviewed, academic,

0:37:320:37:35

evidence-based research on counterterrorism and terrorism

0:37:350:37:39

and the jingoistic rhetoric we hear on the media about,

0:37:390:37:41

you know, they hate our freedoms, it's about ideology,

0:37:410:37:44

we're at war with an ideology.

0:37:440:37:46

The consensus in the academic community is that

0:37:460:37:48

ideology is incidental, not causative.

0:37:480:37:51

The causative factors are much more things like despair,

0:37:510:37:56

-things like alienation...

-EMILY THORNBERRY:

-Yes.

0:37:560:37:59

..things like feeling that certain people

0:37:590:38:02

are separated from wider society.

0:38:020:38:04

-Are you talking about this country?

-This country and many others.

0:38:040:38:07

That's what I was trying to say.

0:38:070:38:09

The picture that you have of a family with little children

0:38:090:38:12

going off to Islamic State because somehow there might be

0:38:120:38:14

a better life for them there is just terrifying.

0:38:140:38:17

Absolutely. The point is if we talk about things like ideology we're

0:38:170:38:20

falling into the same trap,

0:38:200:38:22

the same rhetoric that was used even word for word in colonial times,

0:38:220:38:28

when people of colonial British... or British colonies would resist

0:38:280:38:33

and fight back, they were labelled as extremists.

0:38:330:38:36

They were labelled as there's something wrong with their ideology.

0:38:360:38:40

APPLAUSE

0:38:400:38:41

I just want to come back to the lady on the edge saying we won't

0:38:410:38:44

do anything to help in Syria.

0:38:440:38:46

The British people, that's us, taxpayers,

0:38:460:38:48

have spent £1 billion to try to help the refugees in Syria.

0:38:480:38:51

We've done more than any other country other than

0:38:510:38:54

the United States to do this, and I think this is very important.

0:38:540:38:58

I'm not usually a great fan of overseas aid,

0:38:580:39:00

but I think this is absolutely the right way to spend it,

0:39:000:39:03

to help the most troubled people, the most at-risk refugees.

0:39:030:39:07

ALL TALK AT ONCE No, we're closing up now.

0:39:070:39:10

There is a naivety about the use of airpower

0:39:100:39:12

if you're going to try and defeat them militarily.

0:39:120:39:15

Ask anybody in the military.

0:39:150:39:17

Can boots on the ground defeat Isis without airpower? No, they can't.

0:39:170:39:21

So if you sign up to the idea that Isis must be defeated,

0:39:210:39:25

at some point you've got to acknowledge we need airpower.

0:39:250:39:28

I'm afraid it's a military necessity.

0:39:280:39:30

-But and boots on the ground.

-Yes. Supporting the boots on the ground.

0:39:300:39:34

All right, I want to move on to another question

0:39:340:39:36

because we have 20 minutes left,

0:39:360:39:37

and we've got two more questions I'd like to get to if I can.

0:39:370:39:40

For the sake of our audience getting through the questions

0:39:400:39:43

they want to ask. Pam Grant, your turn.

0:39:430:39:45

If Donald Trump becomes President of the United States,

0:39:450:39:49

would it upset our special relationship?

0:39:490:39:52

LAUGHTER

0:39:520:39:54

Mark Reckless. Mark, you start on this.

0:39:540:39:58

I think it probably would.

0:40:040:40:05

It is absolutely extraordinary that

0:40:050:40:08

a man such as Donald Trump,

0:40:080:40:10

with the views he has expressed,

0:40:100:40:12

is polling, I think, around 40%

0:40:120:40:14

of likely Republican voters.

0:40:140:40:17

Now, I don't believe he's going to get the Republican nomination

0:40:170:40:21

or still less become President of the United States.

0:40:210:40:24

But to think he MIGHT get the Republican nomination,

0:40:240:40:27

and if something blew up with Hillary Clinton, all those

0:40:270:40:30

e-mails, something else came out, that actually you can paint

0:40:300:40:33

a scenario in which he does become president of the United States.

0:40:330:40:36

I think that would be very unwelcome,

0:40:360:40:39

but I think Donald Trump, he is gauging something.

0:40:390:40:41

There's something happening in America but also in Europe,

0:40:410:40:44

probably in our own country,

0:40:440:40:46

there's a huge disconnect between the politicians and the public.

0:40:460:40:51

And instead of a free market there is a crony corporatism

0:40:510:40:55

and a belief that however you vote the power has all gone to people

0:40:550:40:59

who are not accountable, whether it's the European Commission

0:40:590:41:02

or judges or quangos,

0:41:020:41:04

and actually people who want to make a difference

0:41:040:41:06

over their own lives, they want their democracy back.

0:41:060:41:09

And that's why I want to get out of the European Union

0:41:090:41:12

and I think probably in America it's something in a way I don't

0:41:120:41:14

agree with, but it's something Donald Trump is expressing...

0:41:140:41:17

-HANNAH BARDELL:

-That's a great shoehorn, Mark.

0:41:170:41:19

How did you get the European Union into a question about Donald Trump?

0:41:190:41:23

He gets the European Union into everything.

0:41:230:41:26

You, sir. Yes. Come on, quickly.

0:41:260:41:28

Last time I checked, over 400,000 people had

0:41:280:41:30

voted against Donald Trump being allowed into the UK.

0:41:300:41:33

-Now 500, I think.

-Over 500, in fact.

0:41:330:41:35

So is that going to be seriously debated in Parliament,

0:41:350:41:38

-as the people have spoken?

-Should it be?

0:41:380:41:40

-HANNAH BARDELL:

-It should be.

-Why?

0:41:400:41:41

That means 65 million people didn't, of course. So it's all relative.

0:41:410:41:47

You have a go at this, Piers Morgan.

0:41:470:41:49

Look, I've done this show 19 times, somebody informed me yesterday.

0:41:490:41:53

-Which show is this?

-Question Time.

0:41:530:41:56

You are a show, aren't you?

0:41:560:41:58

No, it's a programme.

0:41:580:41:59

-A programme.

-He's been in America too long!

0:41:590:42:02

CHEERING

0:42:020:42:04

Thank you.

0:42:050:42:07

Thank you very much indeed for saying that, thank you.

0:42:090:42:11

I would like to apologise for denigrating your programme.

0:42:110:42:15

Now make your point.

0:42:150:42:17

Your programme 19 times,

0:42:170:42:18

and I'm about to get the biggest cheer I've ever had

0:42:180:42:21

in the 19 times I have appeared,

0:42:210:42:23

because I've known Donald Trump ten years,

0:42:230:42:25

his judgment is very sound, he made me his first Celebrity Apprentice

0:42:250:42:29

in America, and I consider him to be a personal friend.

0:42:290:42:32

-SILENCE FROM AUDIENCE

-Exactly.

0:42:320:42:35

So, to me, I'm slightly alarmed at the way this has played out for him.

0:42:350:42:38

I didn't understand what the whole "we're going to ban Muslims"

0:42:380:42:41

stuff was about. I wrote a column attacking him for it.

0:42:410:42:44

But I do understand on a separate level

0:42:440:42:47

why he is resonating with the American public.

0:42:470:42:50

And the reason is that they are fearful.

0:42:500:42:52

They are very fearful that they are now heading towards another

0:42:520:42:55

9/11 scenario following what happened in California

0:42:550:42:57

two weeks ago. And he's tapping into that fear.

0:42:570:43:00

He's also totally different to any other politician in America.

0:43:000:43:03

He speaks his mind, he never apologises, he's bombastic,

0:43:030:43:07

he's a showman,

0:43:070:43:09

but in a way he's a slight throwback to how America used to be

0:43:090:43:12

when it was a chest-beating, all-dominant superpower.

0:43:120:43:15

And to underestimate him is to make a big mistake, in my view.

0:43:150:43:19

He's a very smart guy, he knows exactly what he's doing.

0:43:190:43:22

We may not like it, but trust me, banning him from Britain

0:43:220:43:25

will not make any difference to his prospects.

0:43:250:43:27

The question was if he became President would it

0:43:270:43:29

upset our special relationship? Would it be a different Trump

0:43:290:43:32

from the one that seems to be upsetting people at the moment?

0:43:320:43:34

I actually don't think so. Banning him would be difficult, obviously,

0:43:340:43:38

if you couldn't let the President into the country,

0:43:380:43:40

but I looked at what Vladimir Putin said today about him,

0:43:400:43:42

and it was quite interesting.

0:43:420:43:44

He was talking him up very warmly.

0:43:440:43:45

-Brilliant and talented, he called him.

-Right.

0:43:450:43:48

And whether you like him or not, Trump, you don't get to get

0:43:480:43:51

a 10 billion empire without being fairly brilliant or talented.

0:43:510:43:54

Even if he's offensive.

0:43:540:43:56

-Doesn't seem to go down too well in Scotland, does he?

-No.

0:43:560:44:00

No, and I would like to think that Nicola Sturgeon,

0:44:000:44:02

our First Minister, has led the way on this.

0:44:020:44:05

She removed him from the GlobalScot network,

0:44:050:44:07

removed him from being an ambassador for Scotland,

0:44:070:44:10

and he's also had his honorary degree...

0:44:100:44:11

-What?

-Who made him the ambassador?

0:44:110:44:13

-Yeah, who made him ambassador?

-Alex Salmond.

-Well, let's be clear.

0:44:130:44:18

You liked him when it suited you, didn't you?

0:44:180:44:21

Well, he invested in Scotland,

0:44:210:44:22

he has a number of businesses there, and the people who work...

0:44:220:44:25

There are 20,000 people work for the Trump Organisation.

0:44:250:44:28

Presumably they do not all hold his views.

0:44:280:44:31

So it is not they or the areas that he has his businesses

0:44:310:44:35

that should be disadvantaged. What he should do is apologise.

0:44:350:44:39

He should apologise for views that are abhorrent,

0:44:390:44:42

that are divisive, and have no place in our society.

0:44:420:44:45

Which particular views, and to whom?

0:44:450:44:48

Well, the views about banning Muslims.

0:44:480:44:51

That is just... It is abhorrent. It's a ridiculous thing to suggest.

0:44:510:44:56

And, at the end of the day, we share a lot across the ocean with America.

0:44:560:45:03

We've exported Piers Morgan.

0:45:030:45:04

I think some exports we might have quite happily left there.

0:45:040:45:07

No, I've come back. I've been reimported.

0:45:070:45:10

The woman here on my left. Yes.

0:45:100:45:13

Hi.

0:45:130:45:14

As Jacob Rees-Mogg said, in terms of people voting,

0:45:140:45:18

the people's vote is the true vote,

0:45:180:45:20

if the people of America vote for Donald Trump,

0:45:200:45:23

then that's what they deserve.

0:45:230:45:25

-Jacob?

-I think the lady is absolutely right that

0:45:250:45:29

we have to trust democracy.

0:45:290:45:31

I would say two other things.

0:45:310:45:33

First of all, I think we overstate the special relationship,

0:45:330:45:36

and that we think we have a very strong relationship with the US

0:45:360:45:39

and the US doesn't lose a lot of sleep over what the

0:45:390:45:42

United Kingdom thinks, and I think we should be cautious about that.

0:45:420:45:45

The second is that I think we have a tendency to think

0:45:450:45:50

all American presidents are deeply stupid.

0:45:500:45:53

We thought that of Ronald Reagan, we thought that of George Bush Jr.

0:45:530:45:56

-Obama?

-We don't think that of Obama, but we thought

0:45:560:45:59

of Bill Clinton that he had certain problems in the fidelity area.

0:45:590:46:05

It doesn't make him stupid.

0:46:050:46:06

-It doesn't make him stupid.

-Not necessarily stupid.

0:46:060:46:09

-But we like to look down on American Presidents...

-Incautious, perhaps.

0:46:090:46:13

..because of the way they appeal to their electorates

0:46:130:46:17

and they appeal to their electorates in ways that are too

0:46:170:46:19

populist for the British political system, and we don't like,

0:46:190:46:23

and they say things which go down very badly here.

0:46:230:46:26

But if you want to give a great boost to Mr Trump's campaign,

0:46:260:46:31

ban him from coming to the UK,

0:46:310:46:33

because it would run so badly in the US,

0:46:330:46:36

they would think the UK had no business

0:46:360:46:38

banning an American presidential candidate.

0:46:380:46:40

It would boost his support, it would mean that somebody

0:46:400:46:43

who we think it will be difficult to deal with,

0:46:430:46:45

who is friends with Mr Morgan and Mr Putin,

0:46:450:46:47

so he keeps very fine company...

0:46:470:46:49

APPLAUSE

0:46:490:46:53

-That is a low blow, Rees-Mogg.

-I meant it in a friendly way.

0:46:530:46:58

Are you likening me to the Russian dictator? Come on!

0:46:580:47:01

You are a very powerful figure.

0:47:010:47:04

The gentleman there with the spectacles and the moustache.

0:47:040:47:06

I think if he is democratically elected

0:47:060:47:09

he should not be banned from coming.

0:47:090:47:11

There is loads of leaders all over the world who have said things

0:47:110:47:14

or believe in things that we don't agree with.

0:47:140:47:17

And you think we could get on with him as President?

0:47:170:47:19

-That was what was behind the question.

-Sure.

0:47:190:47:22

Because that particular aspect is one aspect of many aspects

0:47:220:47:25

that a president carries. But what I do fear, though,

0:47:250:47:28

is that if those are his genuine beliefs,

0:47:280:47:31

going back to the previous question,

0:47:310:47:33

he could then become a catalyst for radicalisation,

0:47:330:47:38

if he expresses his views in these terms.

0:47:380:47:41

And the man behind you. Yes, you, sir.

0:47:410:47:45

I was going to say that in terms of the previous

0:47:450:47:47

question about radicalisation,

0:47:470:47:49

this is a man who has got an audience of 300 million in America

0:47:490:47:53

and the world now, and he's beating his chest saying,

0:47:530:47:56

"Muslims, don't come into my country."

0:47:560:47:59

He's saying he's going to...

0:47:590:48:01

-What's he going to say...? He's going to...

-Ban.

-..ban mosques,

0:48:010:48:04

he's going to close mosques.

0:48:040:48:06

He's making Muslims the enemy within America.

0:48:060:48:08

CLAPPING STARTS

0:48:080:48:09

So those who are on the edge,

0:48:090:48:12

of sanity, and about to be radicalised, that's him.

0:48:120:48:16

-That's the message.

-Emily Thornberry, then I'll come to you.

0:48:160:48:19

I think we have had presidents

0:48:190:48:21

in the past that have been ignorant of world affairs,

0:48:210:48:24

have not known very much about the world outside America.

0:48:240:48:28

We've had American presidents

0:48:280:48:30

who I don't think have been particularly bright.

0:48:300:48:34

We haven't yet had a president of the United States

0:48:340:48:37

who indulges in cheap and nasty racist slurs.

0:48:370:48:41

APPLAUSE

0:48:410:48:44

There've been quite a few who supported slavery historically.

0:48:440:48:47

ALL TALK AT ONCE

0:48:470:48:50

All right, guys.

0:48:500:48:52

In my lifetime. But it is now...

0:48:520:48:56

But the idea that we might have someone like Donald Trump

0:48:560:48:59

being President of the United States is I think frankly appalling.

0:48:590:49:03

It is appalling. Of course it will

0:49:030:49:05

affect the relationship between Britain and America.

0:49:050:49:08

If it didn't, I would think much less of this country.

0:49:080:49:11

I certainly hope that if he does get the Republican nomination, and it

0:49:110:49:15

looks like he might,

0:49:150:49:16

but who knows, their polls might be as bad as ours...

0:49:160:49:19

If he does become their nominee, Hillary Clinton

0:49:190:49:22

will become the first President of the United States,

0:49:220:49:25

and wouldn't that be fantastic?

0:49:250:49:27

The first woman President of the United States.

0:49:270:49:30

And she certainly knows about world affairs,

0:49:300:49:32

she's certainly bright, she's been through the mill,

0:49:320:49:35

she's as tough as anything and she would be an excellent President.

0:49:350:49:38

You, sir, last point and we'll take

0:49:380:49:40

-another question.

-Yes, as President he'd obviously be allowed in...

0:49:400:49:44

I think he just needs educating and introduced to a few Muslims over

0:49:440:49:47

here. He's got this wrong idea that certain parts of London are no-go

0:49:470:49:50

areas, where police are frightened of Muslims.

0:49:500:49:52

He just needs educating.

0:49:520:49:55

APPLAUSE

0:49:550:49:56

Maybe he should come over.

0:49:560:49:59

I think we've got time for one more question, which we must have, given

0:49:590:50:03

where we are. Duncan Reid, please.

0:50:030:50:07

Will Heathrow expansion provide the promised number of jobs,

0:50:070:50:11

and can this justify the cost to the environment?

0:50:110:50:14

This is the building of another runway at Heathrow,

0:50:140:50:17

the Prime Minister is deferring a judgment until after the summer.

0:50:170:50:20

Will it provide the jobs, can it justify the cost to the environment?

0:50:200:50:23

-What's your view?

-Heathrow Airport Ltd hasn't complained that the

0:50:230:50:27

Davies Commission report has happily traded the shortening

0:50:270:50:31

of people's lives for profit. That cannot be right.

0:50:310:50:33

You think it is the shortening of people's lives for profit?

0:50:330:50:37

Who'd like to go on this on Heathrow?

0:50:370:50:39

Emily Thornberry, you were just talking, Mark Reckless,

0:50:390:50:42

-you start on this one.

-Good.

0:50:420:50:43

I will start again, and be criticised for this,

0:50:430:50:46

-with a point about the European Union.

-Oh, no, please!

0:50:460:50:48

LAUGHTER

0:50:480:50:50

Jose Mourinho!

0:50:500:50:51

The reason David Cameron, our Prime Minister,

0:50:510:50:54

has said he is going to delay for another six months taking a decision

0:50:540:50:58

is to see whether Heathrow could have a third runway yet still

0:50:580:51:02

meet the European Union legislation on nitrogen dioxin emissions.

0:51:020:51:05

Very dangerous, kills a lot of people,

0:51:050:51:08

partly because of all these diesel engines

0:51:080:51:10

that again the European Union has encouraged through its regulations

0:51:100:51:14

and allowed to come onto our roads

0:51:140:51:16

despite being nowhere near meeting their own...

0:51:160:51:20

-What's your answer to the question?

-That's where we are on Heathrow.

0:51:200:51:24

-And that's it?

-No, no-one knows if you can build a third runway,

0:51:240:51:29

because the legislation and what they pass in Europe is so unclear,

0:51:290:51:33

that this massive decision for our economy is held up.

0:51:330:51:37

What I believe and what Ukip believes is instead of expanding

0:51:370:51:40

Heathrow, we should have a second runway at Gatwick.

0:51:400:51:43

Allow Gatwick to compete with Heathrow,

0:51:430:51:47

-and that we should get on with doing it.

-All right, thank you.

0:51:470:51:50

The woman in the third row.

0:51:500:51:52

What's your view?

0:51:520:51:55

I just wondered whether the panel believes that the decision on

0:51:550:51:58

Heathrow and the can being kicked down the road has got anything to

0:51:580:52:02

do with the London mayoral elections.

0:52:020:52:08

Perish the thought.

0:52:080:52:09

Jacob Rees-Mogg, you know the inside workings of the Tory party.

0:52:090:52:12

I-I wish I did.

0:52:120:52:14

I think that's a shockingly cynical view and I can't imagine such

0:52:140:52:17

a thought will have entered the Prime Minister's head.

0:52:170:52:20

But if I may answer the main question... I think we absolutely

0:52:200:52:24

ought to extend Heathrow.

0:52:240:52:26

Heathrow is THE most convenient London airport.

0:52:260:52:30

I realise in Slough this may not please everybody.

0:52:300:52:33

I used to live near Slough with the aeroplanes going over

0:52:330:52:38

and I confess they didn't prove too bothersome them.

0:52:380:52:41

-Eton, was that?

-Absolutely right. I...

0:52:410:52:44

APPLAUSE

0:52:440:52:48

LAUGHTER

0:52:480:52:51

I was at school with your son.

0:52:530:52:56

LAUGHTER

0:52:560:52:59

Fantastic!

0:52:590:53:01

But I think it is crucially important economically...

0:53:010:53:06

That was a brilliant thing.

0:53:060:53:09

That's the best thing I've seen him take in a long time.

0:53:090:53:12

Let's get back to the important topic of Heathrow rather than my

0:53:120:53:16

and Henry Dimbleby's education.

0:53:160:53:20

We need a functional airport, that is close to London,

0:53:200:53:23

is well-connected, allows us to compete internationally,

0:53:230:53:27

has all the routes to China and the Far East.

0:53:270:53:29

And every project we come up with is stopped by a particle,

0:53:290:53:33

a bat, a badger or a newt.

0:53:330:53:36

-And we can't allow...

-What?

0:53:360:53:37

-There is always some environmental thing.

-A badger and a newt?

0:53:370:53:41

Newts stop endless building projects.

0:53:410:53:43

We can't build roads because of a newt.

0:53:430:53:46

We can't build a house because of a bat.

0:53:460:53:48

What about people and the needs of our economy of the British people?

0:53:480:53:52

OK. I want some audience views.

0:53:520:53:54

Man in the blue tie. You sir, yes.

0:53:540:53:56

Quick views from the audience. I want

0:53:560:53:57

to bring everybody in. We've only got three minutes left. Fire away.

0:53:570:54:00

Why is nobody looking at the big picture?

0:54:000:54:04

Boris has suggested an airport in the estuary,

0:54:040:54:07

and moving it there would cost a lot of money, create a lot of space,

0:54:070:54:12

very valuable real estate at Heathrow,

0:54:120:54:16

create a lot of jobs in Essex.

0:54:160:54:19

It can be connected.

0:54:190:54:21

A lot of money, but a new garden city at Heathrow will house up to

0:54:210:54:27

a quarter of a million people, a new Canary Wharf,

0:54:270:54:30

larger than that, it would be a fantastic asset.

0:54:300:54:33

-That is the long view.

-Emily Thornberry, do you agree?

0:54:330:54:36

I think the Boris Island was always discredited.

0:54:360:54:40

The moment he said it, it was one of Boris's fantasies. But...

0:54:400:54:45

-He says you haven't looked at it.

-Have you really studied it?

0:54:450:54:48

There were many studies of Boris Island and they would come back and

0:54:480:54:52

say to Boris, "It doesn't work."

0:54:520:54:54

Boris would say, "I will commission somebody else." Somebody else would

0:54:540:54:58

-have a look at it. It isn't viable.

-Have you looked at it?

0:54:580:55:01

-So the answer...

-And it is very unpopular in Rochester.

0:55:010:55:05

The answer I want to give is the fact that

0:55:050:55:08

studies show that 10,000 Londoners' lives

0:55:080:55:11

have been shortened as a result of pollution.

0:55:110:55:13

In those circumstances, it isn't a particle, it is people's lives.

0:55:130:55:17

We have seen the Supreme Court saying the area around Heathrow

0:55:180:55:23

breaches the EU air-quality directive.

0:55:230:55:26

-All right.

-We have to look at that before deciding

0:55:260:55:29

whether we have another runway.

0:55:290:55:31

The woman on the gangway over there.

0:55:310:55:34

This is because of diesel.

0:55:340:55:35

If we had stuck to petrol engines we would not have this problem,

0:55:350:55:38

so we ought to re-encourage petrol and get away from diesel.

0:55:380:55:41

Can you run aeroplanes on petrol?

0:55:410:55:43

No, no, the diesel in cars,

0:55:430:55:44

causing pollution when people go to the airport.

0:55:440:55:47

-Right.

-It is not the pollution from the aeroplanes.

0:55:470:55:49

OK. The woman on the gangway.

0:55:490:55:51

The expansion of Heathrow will add £100 billion to the economy

0:55:510:55:55

and the top two thirds of businesses use Heathrow to import and export.

0:55:550:55:59

Is that not helping the economy?

0:55:590:56:02

So you are in favour. All right, Piers Morgan.

0:56:020:56:05

In the time we have dithered over this and in the time it will take

0:56:050:56:08

for any decision to come after endless enquiries which establish

0:56:080:56:12

another enquiry,

0:56:120:56:14

China has built 80 new airports,

0:56:140:56:18

never mind just extra runways.

0:56:180:56:21

The reason Europe is seen to be in decline, which it indisputably

0:56:210:56:25

is around the world, is precisely because of this kind of nonsense.

0:56:250:56:28

Heathrow is a world-class airport, a massive asset to this country.

0:56:280:56:32

Frankly, we should be looking at not just one new runway,

0:56:320:56:36

probably two, and I would build another spanking new airport

0:56:360:56:40

just outside the M25 with travel into central London.

0:56:400:56:44

And I would make ourselves the European hub for anyone

0:56:440:56:47

coming from America, China, or the Middle East or wherever.

0:56:470:56:51

And I would do this fast, so we can seize the moment and not let,

0:56:510:56:55

as Willie Walsh, I saw the BA guy this week

0:56:550:56:58

saying, "We'll take our business to other countries."

0:56:580:57:01

-OK.

-This is a dangerous situation for our economy.

0:57:010:57:04

APPLAUSE

0:57:040:57:06

We are over time, I'm afraid. Hannah, I'll bring you in.

0:57:060:57:09

No, no, I can't... Hannah.

0:57:090:57:10

Boris Johnson said he would lie down in front of the bulldozers

0:57:100:57:14

if it came to it.

0:57:140:57:15

If that is not a win-win, I don't know what is.

0:57:150:57:18

-Hannah.

-I will solve the problem. Just bring it to Scotland.

0:57:180:57:21

Fine. On which note, thank you very much.

0:57:210:57:24

I'm sorry to those who had your hands up.

0:57:240:57:26

We're overrunning and we have to stop or we get our knuckles rapped

0:57:260:57:30

on this programme. If it were a show,

0:57:300:57:34

no doubt we'd be allowed to go on as long as we want.

0:57:340:57:37

-If it was a show, I would be hosting it!

-Well, your day may come.

0:57:370:57:43

We will be in London for

0:57:430:57:45

the next programme on January 14th,

0:57:450:57:48

and Belfast the week after.

0:57:480:57:50

If you want to come,

0:57:500:57:52

you can apply through the website.

0:57:520:57:55

The address is on the screen.

0:57:550:57:56

Or you can call...

0:57:560:57:59

Radio 5 Live listeners,

0:57:590:58:01

the debate continues on Question Time Extra Time.

0:58:010:58:04

But for here, my thanks to our panel,

0:58:040:58:06

to all of you who came here to Slough to take part in this programme,

0:58:060:58:10

a very happy Christmas to everyone

0:58:100:58:12

and see you again in the New Year. Goodnight.

0:58:120:58:14

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Slough. On the panel are Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, Labour's Emily Thornberry MP, Ukip's Mark Reckless, the SNP's Hannah Bardell MP and journalist Piers Morgan.


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