04/02/2016 Question Time

Tonight, we are in Bradford, and this is Question Time.

And a big welcome, whether you are watching or listening, and welcome

to our audience and our panel. Tonight, the Conservative Energy

Secretary, Amber Rudd. Labour's former Shadow Chief Secretary to the

Treasury, Shabana Mahmood. Deputy leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall.

President of the Liberal Democrats, Baroness Brinton, and author of the

controversial biography of David Cameron, about to become political

editor at large of the Daily Mail, Isabel Oakeshott.

Let's have our first question from dawn Thornton. Has David Cameron

done enough to convince the nation to stay in Europe? Amber Rudd. That

is up to the nation to decide when we get the referendum. But do you

think he has done enough to convince the nation? We know the nation will

decide. Yes. That is my point, it is not going to be up to individuals in

government, it will be up to the whole country. My point is to say

that we had a decision to give a referendum, which will take place

this year. David Cameron said he would negotiate, which he has done

and he has brought back a package. It is not a final agreement, but a

package that deals with the things most people find most irritating in

the UK, to do with sovereignty, competitiveness, immigration and not

being left out of decision-making when the eurozone may feel they are

making decisions without us. In your opinion, as the Prime Minister done

enough to convince people in the nation as a whole to stay in? We

have to wait and see because it is not complete. You do not think the

job is done. He's the first to say that. But this is a milestone. In

Parliament, usually we get Prime Minister is offering treaties,

Maastricht, Lisbon, saying this is the treaty the UK will sign up to.

For the first time we have a proposal unique to the UK. It is

great progress. I hope negotiations go well and we will be in a position

to campaign to stay in the EU. Do you still think there are

circumstances where you might stay out, rather than remain? It depends

how the next few weeks go. You are on a knife edge?

I am encouraged by what we have seen, but we are still doing

negotiations and we want to improve on them all the time. There are 27

other member states who had to agree them. Timing will be critical and we

are not there yet. Paul Nuttall. I am surprised you say he has made

great progress because I think we can all agree that what he has come

back with amounts to nothing. He asked for nothing and he will get

nothing. A year ago he was talking about treaty change. There will be

no treaty change, no powers coming back from Brussels to this country,

no return of our fisheries, no reduction in our membership fee.

What he will try to do is to sell this as a great victory. It is not.

It is a great failure. So you must be hugely relieved because everybody

will vote out. I am just not impressed. We are talking about a

few glib lines about competitiveness, opposing ever

greater union, a protection for non-EU rose own countries. I am not

being funny, I sit in the European Parliament. There is ever closer

union on every report we vote on every week. This idea of capping in

work benefits for migrants does not add up to a hill of beans. The

Guardian said today that it will affect very few people indeed,

around 20 8000. Once we have a living wage, the poll will be even

greater than it was before. Beyond that, to ensure this gets through

needs a majority of member states to sign up to it and that is not going

to happen. One last thing, we find out now that the European Parliament

will be able to veto it. I am telling you, the European Parliament

is no friend of Britain. It will not happen, it is not good enough,

ladies and common. It is not good enough.

APPLAUSE I go back to the point that you must

be mightily relieved because your boys wanted to leave Europe anyway.

Well, I think it gives us a better opportunity of leaving because the

British people are clever enough to see through this show rather. The

woman on the left. I am very much for going out of Europe because I

think we are stronger out of it, but do you not think Ukip is actually

the biggest threat for us to leave Europe? Can you explain that. At the

moment, you have infighting between leave Europe and the other campaign,

but do you not think that Ukip and Nigel Farage in particular are the

biggest threat in terms of splitting that campaign and having a dilutive

message? There are two points there. First, we would not have had this

referendum if it was not for Ukip. Let's make that clear. Mr Cameron

offered it to try to shoot the Ukip Fox, and he failed to do so because

we won the European elections after he gave that guarantee. We are only

here because of Ukip in the first place, and Ukip are the party trying

to bring together these two campaigns. One is saying, yes,

please come together. Now is the time, ladies and gentlemen, for

these campaigns to put personalities aside, come together have one strong

team, because personality should not matter. This is about the future of

our country. We need to get our country back and we will only do

that by leaving the European Union. APPLAUSE

The central question, has David Cameron done enough, I don't think

he has done enough yet, because the deal that he has achieved, which

still has to be finalised, is not the central point. That is not the

beginning, nor the end of the important decision we have to make

about whether we stay in the European Union. I think David

Cameron needs to make the more important case about how we cash

back while why we need to stay, and that is the case around the fact

that being in the European Union has established peace and security in

our continent when war is something within living memory, that we have

employment rights secured across Europe as a level playing field in

which our workers benefit from things such as paid leave and equal

rights for part-time workers. And fundamentally, the most important

factor is access to the single market. 500 million people we can

export to without having to pay any kind of tariff. That is a big deal

and he has to make the case for the wider question of why we need to

stay in the European Union. The question for Ukip, which they always

fail to answer when we have a debate about the European Union is, what

does the alternative of coming out of the European Union actually look

like? If it looks like Norway, Iceland or Switzerland, who have

access to the single market but on unfavourable terms that I would not

want to sign up to, they never say which they would prefer. Can I

answer? No, you have had a long say Ulster I will come back to you. Hold

your horses. The person in the second row from

the back. David Cameron knows he has not done enough which is why he is

gagging cabinet ministers from saying what they really think.

Reportedly, Amber Rudd, you are a Eurosceptic. What disappoints me is

that people like you would rather look after your own interests than

actually come out and lose a cabinet position because he has threatened

to sack you. That is not good enough, unfortunately.

APPLAUSE The allegation is that she is a

closet euro-sceptic disguised as an enthusiast. I have unlimited

research on this and there are reports that you are a Eurosceptic.

I am not sure the reporting is entirely accurate. And note the

adverb "Entirely". It is reasonable to sport the Prime Minister in

getting the best negotiation possible. Whether there are people

who still think they would prefer to be out, they still want the British

to have the best choice, which will be the best negotiation we can have,

or out. You would not want the best -- the worst negotiation. That is

why the Cabinet support it. It is hardly fair for the Prime Minister

to put the case as he sees it but sceptics in the Cabinet to be

gagged. I can tell you the sceptics are very supportive of the Prime

Minister to get the best negotiation he can. It does not mean they will

support it but it means the best choice in terms of getting a final

offer. I think this debate we have had now demonstrates how the

Conservatives are completely torn apart on this, and the issues David

Cameron has brought back are very important to those on the margin in

the Conservative Party about whether to stay in or go out. I am a Liberal

Democrat and a passionate believer that this country is stronger in. I

do not want us to end up in the position of Norway, who pay 75% of

their share, as if they were in, but have absolutely no say about

negotiating. Here in Bradford, the effect would be catastrophic. The

cloth and chemical industries so almost exclusively into European

markets, and the moment we retract ourselves from the whole of that

market, we have to have separate barriers, it becomes difficult for

businesses to trade, life becomes much more complicated. For me, this

local example would be replicated right across the country. We remain

stronger in. It is better for us and prosperity. We need to be at the

table to make our voice heard. The one thing I would agree with David

Cameron on and where I would disagree with Euro-sceptics, is that

before he went to Europe the Eurosceptics were saying he would

not get anything at all. He has brought back things. I agree with

Shabana that they are not important things, but by golly, he has got

European nation states talking. That is what is going to have to happen.

We face discussions and compromise. As far as I'm concerned, we need to

make sure we keep going. It is important for business, prosperity,

peace and security. APPLAUSE

Let's hear from some members of our audience and then come back to the

panel. I agree and disagree with some points. With Baroness Brinton,

I agree the Tory party are split by the subject of the EU and whether we

stay in. Going back to the lady in the audience earlier, Ukip are not

split on this issue. They are the only political party who are

actually embracing collaboration. Recently involving Nigel Farage, the

out campaign has been launched, involving a cross-section of

political parties, and as far is I can see the only political party in

Westminster who are advocates of togetherness, partnership and

collaboration. I am a Eurosceptic who is married to

a Polish lady. I would like to know, particularly from Paul, in the event

of us leaving the EU, what would happen to the EU people living in

this country, both those in work and those who are currently on welfare?

You mean Polish people? I mean all EU people. You, sir, in the yellow.

There are some crazy European rules. For instance, somebody could come

from Romania over here, a worker, and claim for their children who are

still in remain near, where in remain near they get ?2 per week

child benefit. Over here, they can claim ?20 per week. How on earth are

the Department for Work and Pensions supposed to work out how much they

will pay per person? We have heard four voices in favour of exit,

leaving, what about remaining? Yes, in the middle. It seems to me that

the hypocrisy of the Ukip MP is breathtaking. He says we are going

to be better off outside Europe, and yet he has decided, in his own

career, to be in Europe in order to influence the way that the EU works.

Where is the sense in that? Well, SNP MPs go to Westminster and they

want to leave, and no one has a problem with that. Let me just

answer a couple of questions. The gentleman there, once we leave the

EU people who are already here Wilmot be asked to leave. We have a

heart. But the simple fact is that we do want to control our own

borders, see an Australian points -based system which does not

discriminate against an Indian doctor, or a Pakistani nurse, or

someone from Australia. We want an equal playing field for everyone

because at the moment we discriminate against those from

outside the European Union and say that anyone can come from within

that block of 28. We believe that is unfair. At the same time, we talk

about peace in Europe. Peace was kept by Nato, not the European

Union. You keep on adding points. I am trying to answer all the points.

They are not all directed to you! I would like to answer the point About

the child benefit. David Cameron said he wanted to end the practise

of people claiming child benefit at home. He's come back with a

half-baked proposal that they should get some collaborated level that is

matching where they come from. Is that not what they are doing? It

depends how high you set the bar. I think this is a shoddy sell out.

APPLAUSE I really struggle to see how David

Cameron can look people in the eye and say this is a good deal for

Britain. The only way that he can do that is, if he's starting from the

premise that we ought to remain in come what may and any little

trifling concession is a massive bonus, and the reality is, that is

actually David Cameron's position, he never intended to bring us out of

the UK, he made those kind of noises but he didn't mean it.

Amber Rudd, do you want to answer that? It's absolutely staggering

that you think that a Prime Minister who goes around 27 different

countries sets out four clear things to achieve, comes back with part of

them, not all of them, describes it as a negotiation, has analyse what

had it is about the UK voter population that they really don't

like and has addressed those specific points. How does it help on

borders for example? On sovereignty? It's about sovereignty and ever

closer union. Ukip's consistently said everything about our EU

agreements nothing will ever come back from closer union and

specifically in this statement, from the EU this week, it's actually

saying there'll be no more ever closer European Union. I vote in the

European Parliament all the time, I vote against it, I watch your MPs

vote in favour of it all the time. Can't you admit it's changed. I

can't. I'm stunned from Paul's declaration that his party has a

hearts. I find it... APPLAUSE

Those words come pretty cheap. I would like it if his party could

demonstrate that they have a heart by not blaming imgrants who're

working in our country for all of our troubles and stop pursuing their

divisive, destructive form of politics. Don't say it, demonstrate

it. Thank you. And with respect to the lady who said that Ukip are not

split, it's very true, Ukip are utterly united on their position in

respect of the European Union but they'll not answer the question of

what coming out of the European Union will actually mean because I

promise you, if it means we have a deal like Norway where it's the

tenth largest contributor to the EU budget even though they are not in

thep the European Union, they have to implement three quarters of the

legislation, all the rules in relation to the internal market and

they are within the Schengen borderless zone so they have less

control over their borders than we do. If it is a deal like that in

order to get access to the single market, then I'm afraid that is a

poor deal. I would rather be in the European Union, fighting for better

rules for our country and making sure we get the best possible deal.

I want to go to Dawn Thornton who asked the question? You have been

listening to this, what do you think of what you have hard so far? I

mean, I personally would like to stay in the EU. I just hope that

when we start doing all the debates, that they butt the pros and cons in

layman's terms sothat people can understand it because unless you

have studied law or the EU, some people haven't got a clue what the

pros and cons are. Listening to our panel...

I'm still confused. APPLAUSE

Listening to our panel, are they talking in clear layman's language

for you about the EU? Yes, some of it they are, but then other stuff

that you hear in the media or that you look up, you get more and more

confused. So I'm waiting really for the debates to start of the going,

staying in or coming out. Let's come back to the audience. I want it to

be fair on this, to take it in turns for pro and anti, the question

remember, has Cameron done enough to convince the nation to stay in

Europe. Let's have a pro-Europe speaker first. Do you want to come

in? Yes. Don't you think that, at a time when we have so many

international crises abroad, it's so important to show a united Europe

and surely all this talk of leaving the EU just shoes how divided we are

and that's playing into the hands of people like Putin who want to see us

as a weak European country. Can you answer this? The point of whether we

should all be working together, I don't think we could be necessarily

any less effective on our own as it were and it's not as if we are

leaving NATO, we are still going to be working very hard to achieve

everything we currently achieve within the union so I don't consider

that a particularly powerful argument. On the issue of ever

closer union which Amber you brought up and, you know, you acted as if it

was a great triumph for David Cameron, I mean I don't know if

anyone in the audience really ever thought that we were going to be

part of ever closer union. It seems to me that this is a bit like David

Cameron saying, my goodness, after a long, long, hard and tough

negotiation, I can confirm that today is Thursday and tomorrow is

going to be Friday. Nobody really thought we were going to be part of

ever closer union. All right. APPLAUSE

I completely disagree. If I could answer the lady's point, in terms of

security I agree, working together is important, and I think that we

are living in a dangerous world with Putin and Daesh and working together

is better for the families, for the country, in terms of our prosperity.

Should it only be done or can it only be done by membership of the E

Snitch It's enhanced our security yes, but working together on the

referendum and the terms that David Cameron's working on has shown

actually EU members working very well together, wanting to deep the

UK in and wanting a fair deal, one that helps the whole of the EU in

terms of competitiveness. Can I knock this Norway thing in the head

right now, we are not Norway, all right, we are Great Britain, we are

the fifth largest economy in the world. We are Europe's biggest

market place, OK. And the simple fact of the matter is, you don't

have to be a member of the EU to have access to the single market.

China did 300 billion euros worth of trade last year with the EU, the US

did 250 billion worth of trade last year. They... You are missing the

point. Without being in the European Union. They did that without being

in the European Union. We can too. You are missing the point. The point

about Norway is that it pays in and has to abide by the rules. Of course

we are not identical to Norway. If we want to remove ourselves from the

union, we have to play by the union's rules and contribute and

that's the key problem that not many people... We have a bespoke European

deal. We need us more than they need us. We took a speaker, you, in

favour of remain, I would like to take somebody in favour of out and

then somebody else. You with the beard and the spectacles?

Volkswagen, all the rest of them, Skoda and the rest, Mercedes, are

you telling me that they'll have to stick to the rules and not sell into

this country. A great deal of the parts for all the cars and other

industries come from this country, are you now telling me they'll no

longer deal with us? Why do you want to leave, you obviously don't want

to remain? I never wanted to be in in the first place, we were nefsh

given the choice. We were only given the choice to remain within the

Common Market. We went in already. We weren't given the choices to go

in. My generation, a great deal of us, did not want tos be in. Did you

vote in the first referendum? I did. You are old enough? Yes.

LAUGHTER Harold Wilson in the document

published said, and Wilson said, we are only at the start of our

relationship with the European community, so when you say it was

only a Common Market, he Didak chillily expect things to change. He

didn't give any inkling. Did you vote no? Yes. Had a second chance in

a lifetime? Yes and I will vote no again. The woman up there please on

the right? I think it's really clear to understand what the alternatives

are. The lady on the panel already alluded to this, we don't know what

will happen if we do come out. We talk a lot about what happens when

we are in the EU, but I'm on the fence, I don't know what the

alternatives are and that's what we need to hear more of.

APPLAUSE. And what are your worries, either

way, about that? What do you fear? We have to abide by the rules, we

wouldn't be able to make our own choices, I want to know for me as a

citizen of the UK how we'd be affected if we weren't in the EU,

there are no answers. It's unknown, we don't know how it will look for

us so it's hard to make the choice. You in the third row? I would vote

yes to stay in, firstly because you can see in the audience today the

diversity and the benefits, particularly living in a city like

Bradford, that being part of the European Union brings. That's the

first point. The second point is, Ukip is scaremongering people and

not providing the clear statistics and I totally agree with Shabana

about the greater benefits being part of the European Union.

OK. APPLAUSE

I think we should move on. I said the debate begins here on Question

Time tonight and it will go on week after week after week until we get

this referendum. We still don't know when it will be. You wanted it the

end of June yourself? If we get agreement, we'll have it at the end

of June, we hope. We are not going to be rushed about timing, we ant

the best deal we can for the UK -- we want. Next week, we are going to

be in Llanelli in Wales. The following week, we are in

Stratford-upon-Avon. There's the address to apply. I'll give it again

at the end of the programme. Fatima Hussain, please?

Why is the government only targeting Muslim women to learn English and

not everyone else from every other country?

APPLAUSE This refers to David Cameron's

pledging ?20 million to teach English to women and saying if you

don't improve your fluency that could affect your ability to stay in

the UK. And we are in Bradford which has something like a quarter I think

Asian origin in the population. Shabana Mahmood, what do you make of

that idea of persuading or almost indeed inducing people to learn to

speak English? Frankly the Prime Minister's case would have had more

force if he was not the Prime Minister that presided over huge

cuts to the English for speakers of other languages budget in the first

place. He massively cut that budget and now he offers ?20 million and

picks Muslim women as the big symbolic group to receive that

money. I have to say, few things have angered and frankly upset me

more than the article than the Prime Minister wrote in the Times

newspaper linking a failure by first generation immigrant Muslim women to

be able to speak English or speak English fluently with

radicalisation. That was frankly disgraceful.

It's not backed up by any evidence and if it was the case that it was

leading to radicalisation, frankly Birmingham in the '50s would have

been a hot bed of terrorism because so many first generation terrorists

came in at that point. It was a ridiculous, dangerous argument

because we have this avalanche of negativity coming from all sections

around the British Muslim community and the Prime Minister, who is

supposed to set the tone of the debate in our country, decides to

make this spurious, unfounded link between English language which is

incredibly important and which I really support. With that and

radicalisation, it's frankly a nonsense and also deeply dangerous.

APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? You support the

targeting of this money to help the most vulnerable women in this

situation? I want funding for English language for all groups

because it's so fundamental that everybody in our country can speak

English. Of course, in an environment where there's less

money, it's about targeting the most vulnerable. If 22% of Muslim women

have very poor or no English, incidentally compared 2010% of men,

isn't it right to target the money that we have to help them? We can

target to help them so that those women are better protected

themselves so they can engage at schools with the doctors, they are

just much more protected as individual women and it also means

they can then play a role in society, get jobs, volunteer, help

in society and the business of going to, like most MPs, I have people

come to my surgery and sometimes the parents can't speak English, the

women particularly can't, and the children help them translate so I

think it's absolutely right to target the women that you have

who're most vulnerable. And the women particularly in terms of

helping people in society, I feel strongly about that. I want to

interpose one point. In that article in the Times that you mentioned, the

Prime Minister wrote: "If you don't improve your fluency, that could

affect your ability to stay in the UK. " What does that mean, they kick

people out? We have various pieces of

legislation which are enforced. I am not entirely clear what that means.

You describe it as an inducement. It is a serious approach to help the

most vulnerable. Shabana, people like you should take it more

seriously that these people are isolated. You say they are

vulnerable and you are going to kick them out of the country. Why is it

too much to ask for people who live here really long-term to be able to

speaking this? APPLAUSE

We are not talking about an obscure language, Swire Healey or something.

If you are going to be part of our society, I believe you should be

able to communicate and it is to your advantage to be able to

communicate. I agree people should be able to speaking Laois and should

be supported to do so. If the Prime Minister had not slashed that budget

when he came into power, more people would be able to speak English

today. He is now trying to ride in as the saviour of Muslims in but it

was the link with the radicalisation which was his big a point which was

absolutely unjustified. Not only did he cut that budget, but with the

various cuts to local government, the number of local community groups

that assist people like the Asian ladies, the Muslims in, we have lots

of those and also lots of European people coming into this country.

They have been badly affected by cuts to local government. I work in

local government and I know how badly affected Bradford Council has

been. It is ridiculous. Paul Nuttall, what do you make of what

Shabana describes as the threat of radicalisation by mothers not

speaking English? I don't think it helps. What do you mean, is it true

or not? Well, look, if you live in this country, it is to your own

benefit to speak the language and to be able to integrate. That is not

the question. Address the question. The Prime Minister wrote "Think

about the young boy growing up in Bradford, his mum can't speaking

wish so he finds it hard to communicate with her. As a teenager

he struggled to identify with Western culture. When that happens,

the extremist narrative gives them something to believe in, however

ridiculous". I think it increases the chances of people being

indoctrinated by radicalisation. We need to put a halt to it. 22% of

Muslim and do not speaking wish, or speak poor English. If you want to

integrate and not be cut off from employment opportunities, cut out of

the democratic process... I remember the old and by-election recently,

and a Guardian journalist said it was depressing how many people in

the Pakistani and Bangladeshi community did not speak English. It

is the cost as well to society, the amount spent on translators in the

NHS, the police, the public sector. If you want to be part of our

society and reap the great benefits of living in Britain, then you

should learn the language. Simple as that.

APPLAUSE The point is not that we want people

to speak English. I think we all agree we want people to be able to

communicate. It is just that by targeting Muslim women, he is

feeding on stereotypes, breeding hatred. He made a passing comment

about Muslim women being traditionally submissive. Tell that

to the thousands of women who work, who do amazing things in society. He

is just belittling them. APPLAUSE

If you were to swap the word target for support, would that make it

easier to accept? If we said he wants to support Muslim ladies who

can't speaking wish, rather than target them, I think that puts a

completely different meaning on it. I think he is wanting to support

them. It is not only the language but the culture. He is talking about

children who grow up not being able to communicate with parents and

grandparents. It is also a mixed culture, where sometimes in Asian

communities, you have your elders who are living in an Asian

community, and Asian mindset, not really understanding the youngsters

who have grown up very Western. The question was really important. She

asked, why is it only Muslim Women's Network targeted. There are plenty

of other people in this country who arrive and do not have English, men

and women. -- Muslim women who are targeted. It is wrong... It's

important that everyone has the chance to learn the language. But

the real problem with David Cameron's article was the link with

radicalisation. And it was real dog whistle politics. And I think it was

done utterly cynically, to try and attract some of the Ukip leaning

voters who might be sympathetic with it. I say this in the context of a

Ukip broadcast yesterday which, placed in front of a minaret in

Turkey, was encouraging people to be very suspicious about people from

Turkey. I have Turkish friends who were very distressed by what they

saw last night and I believe it we go on with this sort of politics the

referendum will start to become about parts of our community rather

than the benefits of being in Europe. The strength of this country

over the last 70 years has been our diverse communities working

together, as you do in Bradford. I have certainly seen it in my own

community in Watford. Paul Nuttall, explain what this was yesterday. The

broadcast last night was focusing on the fact that David Cameron and

other political parties in this country eventually want Turkey to

join the European Union. Turkey is a country where only 3% of it falls

into Europe, has lower living standards than any other country in

the European Union. We heard before how you were saying the European

Union brings security. You let Turkey in, it has borders with Iraq,

Iran and Syria. Will that help security in this country? I think we

have a valid point to say no to Turkey joining the European Union.

Paul is starting to repeat the myths and errors of that broadcast last

night. It is completely relevant. It was made to look like a documentary.

It reached guidelines, because if you are copying the style of a

programme, you are supposed to make it clear. You did not, and there

were plenty of facts that were absolutely wrong as well. Did anyone

see that last night? I thought it was very informative. I think you

are missing the point that the Americans are increasing armoured

vehicles in Europe by 100%, and feet on the ground in Europe, because of

the threat of what is coming out of Russia and Eastern Europe. This is a

bit of a smoke screen, to me. Amber Rudd, let's just come back to the

point about Cameron using this point about language to talk about

extremism, conflating the two ideas. Well, I do agree with the article

when it says, as read out to me, that if the mother cannot speak to

her child then it is going to be difficult for her to communicate the

very strong British values that we have got. And I think we have to be

careful about not pussyfooting around. With respect... British

values are important and something we should not avoid. Sometimes the

left is too much about saying we must not interfere with these

cultural areas. I am sorry... There was a problem here, which is that

Muslim would need language skills. -- Muslims in need language skills.

You have repeated the fundamental mistake. If you look at people who

have gone to Syria to get involved with IS, they are university

graduates. Their mum has nothing to do with it.

APPLAUSE The fact that they are university

graduates is utterly terrifying. Instead of dealing with the scary

fact in our midst, you have gone on to pick on Muslim Women's Network

struggle with English. There is no link, you keep making it and it is

really divisive and unfair. -- Muslim women who struggle with

English. I am a lecturer here in Bradford and what upsets me about

this narrative is the presumption that Asian women do not want to

integrate. They absolutely do. There are huge waiting lists. Is that

Asian women of all ages, over 65? Absolutely. We have loads of

students from the younger section but also mothers and grandmothers

who want to get out there and learn these skills. And the provision was

taken away from them. Do you welcome the government proposal to spend 20

million? Of course, and the women want it, too. But not targeted only

at them because they are muslin women. Everybody should be supported

to speak English, but targeting in this way was deeply wrong. A

question from Richard Frost. Does politics need controversial

characters like Donald Trump from time to time to revitalise interest

from voters? What do you think? I think the danger is when those

idiots get elected. APPLAUSE

Paul Nuttall. Well... Maybe you should ask that next week. OK,

Donald Trump. I think people like Donald Trump are the result of bland

politicians, who never give a straight answer to a straight

question, which is true. Come on. They avoid speaking what they

consider to be the truth. Before, when we were talking about

Conservative Cabinet member 's and politicians who want to leave the

European Union but do not have the bottle to come out and put their

country above their own political career. So -- who is going to be our

Donald Trump in Europe? We have not got one at the moment but the rise

of Donald Trump is the result of bland politicians in America. We

might end up with a Donald Trump over here, but the problem is when

people like Donald Trump get elected. Does it scare me if he

becomes American president? It probably would. The journalist in me

would always want, -- colourful politicians. I remember the Monster

Raving Loony Party. Sadly that died out. I think there is a problem with

politics being too grey, too boring, men in suits. Colourful characters

like Trump, whether you agree with him or not, enliven a debate. He

will spark a debate. You saw what happened when he came out with his

crazy comments about not letting any Muslims into America. We have an

extraordinary lively debate about that here in the UK. Yes, I would

probably be a bit alarmed if he became president, but he says things

others do not dare to. I was looking before coming on the programme today

about what else he has said and I disagreed with most of it. But, for

example, he says we should have Merry Christmas in American stores

at Christmas time, rather than happy holidays. That is a great point and

others will not come out with it. Good for him, I say. The politics

around this table has not been grey tonight. Because there are lots of

ladies. I think we need these controversial characters. The

Conservatives always say it is Labour's fault. Labour always blame

the Conservatives. We need these people to spice up politics and make

it a bit more exciting, rather than just playing the blame game all the

time, which is all you ever do. Donald Trump keeps repeating that he

is not a politician and that is what makes him different. He is a

politician, and you should never trust a politician who says he is

not a politician. I am afraid I cannot be quite so excited about

Donald Trump and talk about how he is in live in debate and making it

all very interesting. Most of his rhetoric around Muslims is frankly

terrifying. I am a practising British Muslim, so when I hear him,

I don't think, this is an interesting debate and I'm excited

to listen to it. I just think, that is scary and I hope nobody in our

country things like that, because it would be bad for Britain's Muslims.

I cannot take a bland approach, like others.

Isabel, Donald Trump when he says some hateful speech, he's a

colourful character and if the same speech was delivered by a Muslim

cleric or someone like that, he'd be a terrorist. Amber Rudd?

APPLAUSE You get these double standards. He's

allowed to get away with things? Yes. I would like to dump the Trump,

you know. APPLAUSE That is exact hi the sort

of phrase he might think up, isn't it. He refers to himself always as

the Donald or the Trump. So actually American politics at the moment is

fascinating and there's quite a lot of interesting characters out there

so I don't think he's going to continue to dominate the headlines,

I certainly hope some of the others will get a fair shot soon. I want to

hear from Bradford again. A question from Kerry Noble, please? Has the

northern powerhouse run out of steam? Has the northern powerhouse,

George Osborne's phrase, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, we need

a new northern powerhouse, has this run out of steam, in other words how

are things going on in Bradford. What do you think, by the way? I

don't think it ever got started, never mind run out of steam. I see.

APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? The point about the

northern powerhouse was to make sure that the expansion in the economy,

the new jobs, businesses, didn't just happen in the south-east or

London and, George Osborne set out very specifically to make sure that

the growth in the country did reach all parts and was particularly

reaching the northern powerhouse. The bit that I was particularly

pleased by and impressed by was the effort on road and rail and on rail

we have seen... Electrification in rail, we have

seen that, which is very expensive. Manchester and Liverpool.

HECKLING... Are you feeling you're part of the

northern powerhouse in Bradford? You in the checked shirt? Well, I come

from Essex, for starters. Oh, great! My only comment is that we are

talking about high-speed trains... You have come all the way from Essex

to appear on Question Time? It's a long story, I won't go into it. We

were talking about high speed trains, the only thing I can think

of is national media museums and a large number of the artefacts are

moving down to London, so... Yes. That is a local issue. 400,000

photographic archive which has been here in Bradford for years, it was

announced yesterday that it will go to the V A. Leaving that for the

moment, what do you think Shabana? I was just wondering when Amber was

saying how pleased she is with progress in relation to the northern

powerhouse, whether she's equally pleased that one of the Sheffield

offices for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has

now shut down, its job was to deliver the powerhouse and the jobs

have been shifted back to London. That doesn't seem like a northern

powerhouse raging forward and delivering mean meaningful

devolution. When you heard the intention announced, did you believe

it or did you think it was purely a propaganda statement? I think it's

entirely part of George Osborne's plan to try to get his way into

Downing Street. But hang on, if he says he's going to have a northern

powerhouse, everybody here in Bradford will expect to feel the

effect of that and if they don't they'll blame him, you can't just do

it by smoke and mirrors, can you? Well that, to be fair, is George

Osborne's modus operandi when it comes to the economy more generally.

I think that the northern powerhouse concept was important for him as

part of his own political story, for his road to Number Ten, I think he

wanted to show he cared about the north. He does. And the truth is

that, if you really want to have proper devolution in our country

where cities and regions can come together and go forward with their

own story on economic competitiveness, you have to do that

in a comprehensive way, not just the piecemeal approach. He's gone for

the northern powerhouse, we may have a Midlands engine, it's too bitty

and piecemeal. Sal Brinton? The infrastructure proposals are really

important to the powerhouse because the point about it is that it joins

up some of the centres of excellence in the north. The coalition

Government agreed this would happen. The moment the Conservatives were

back in power, they threw the infrastructure into the long grass.

So one of the key building blocks that's going to make it happen has

if not gone, certainly been delayed for a really long time. It's

incredibly important that we capture what is going on well. Today in the

local paper it's talking about a new super targeted cancer drug which was

invented here in Bradford, it's moving on for development. For a

northern powerhouse, we shouldn't just be talking about invention, but

developing manufacturer here to create jobs, we should be talking

about making sure the academic expertise that's doing that is

plugged into the other universities, not just in the north but elsewhere

as well. My problem is, with the Government saying it's removing its

support in making the important links, it's just going to slowly

fade away. You, Sir, in the second row? I live

in Leeds just a few miles away and I think my concern, having lived in

the city for about ten years, is that the economic growth and things

that we see in the city appears unsustainable. It's very

retail-based, very building-based. What I want to know is what are we

going to do about bringing the greatness back to the north which is

industry, which is, you know, developing local talent and keeping

it local? Do you feel there is any sign of that happening? At the

minute, like I say, from my perspective in Leeds, it's

retail-based and if that's not sustainable in the current economic

climate... I've no doubt the northern powerhouse was and is an

economic aspiration. But it's also and in and was an electioneering

device. I mean, the Tories in reality have long had a massive

problem with their support base beyond London and the Home Counties.

So the northern powerhouse was without doubt a device to boost

support in those areas where the infrastructure projects were

targeted. I think what we, as journalists have to do, is ensure

that there isn't slippage of all those projects that were announced

now that Cameron is home and dry with a little majority that he has.

You, in the spectacles? I think the northern powerhouse is kind of

summing up the Tory Government strategy of saying anything to your

face and doing something completely different while you're not looking.

It's a distraction tactic. They'll say anything and they'll contradict

themselves tomorrow. David Cameron will talk about defending

sovereignty while passing contentious legislation through back

door committees, he's not defending sovereignty of Parliament at all,

he's saying anything to your face. Are you a Bradford man? I'm from

Sheffield. Do you sense any change in the last five years? No, it's not

genuine. It's just buzz words and jingoism. And nothing is happening?

That's not happening. It's simply not true. There is growth, the

economy is growing, unemployment is falling, investment is rising, we

have big projects going on. Unemployment is falling because of

zero hour contracts and part-time work. People might have a job but it

doesn't pay enough, it's not enough hours, you are talking about cutting

in-work benefits as well which was promise nod to be cut. You talk

about getting the votes, you say you will do it and it's not happening.

I'm a model railway fan and I'm currently building a model wailway

that contains a steelworks. It's now the only steelworks in the

north-east that works! LAUGHTER

APPLAUSE You will find yourself undercut by

Chinese! The woman at the back then back to

you, Paul? Cameron doesn't care about the north, that's why

Sheffield steel is allowed to go to the wall and why bankers get to keep

their jobs. Paul Nuttall? I'll be honest and

I've said this on many occasions, I'm fed up with how London dominates

the political and economical life of this country. The northern

powerhouse is just a piece of political spin, never mind running

out of steam. In London, they get around ?5,000 spent on them on

infrastructure, in the north-east it's ?200, not much more here in

Yorkshire, it's not good enough and I will throw this example out, they

are arguing about a third runway for Heathrow or extending Gatwick, why

don't we extend Leeds Bradford, bring the trade up here? !

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

You, Sir? You mentioned earlier on the panel

that it was a political move, I totally agree with that, you also

earlier asked is there any change in Bradford. I'm from Bradford and it's

only recently after ten years we've got a shopping centre in Bradford,

never mind the powerhouse, so I think there's got to be real

investment brought to Bradford. The woman second row from the back, do

you feel the northern powerhouse means something? Absolutely not. I'm

in a strange position of agreeing with Isabel Oakeshott in that it was

aer clearly a device to get votes in the north before the election, a

cynical device so as soon as the election was over, actually we have

seen absolutely nothing here. If anything you see the opposite, big

austerity cuts to the county, cultural things moving to London,

jobs moving to London from Sheffield. It's pretty much an

insult to people here, they have to pull themselves up by the boots, we

have a good heritage and good economic possibilities, and we have

things taken away. APPLAUSE I would say perhaps to the

local authority grants because we had to cut the deficit and we were

elected on the basis of reducing the deficit and cuts. Nobody likes cuts

but that has to happen. In terms of investment in other areas, we have

been encouraging new manufacturing, we have new announcements, opening

new offshore wind with increasing jobs, we have been investing in my

sector to get nuclear going, in Sheffield we have a project on small

modular reactors moving forward, so there are projects moving forward,

particularly in the private sector which is exactly what the northern

powerhouse is trying to deliver. Sal talked about infrastructure, we have

set up the national infrastructure commission to look at long-term...

Long grass, long grass. Dear, oh, dear. The idea is to make sure it's

cross party and gets continued and doesn't have the cynical response.

Invest in the north! OK. We have to stop. Our time is up

here in Bradford. We are in Llanelli next week, in Wales, the comedian

Romesh Ranganathan. To join the audience in Llanelli, or

extraordinaried for upon Avon the week after, get if touch, the

details are on the screen. Our debate continues on Question Time

extra time. Thank you to the panel, the audience and Question Time,

until next Thursday, good night.