04/02/2016 Question Time


David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Bradford. On the panel: Amber Rudd MP, Shabana Mahmood MP, Paul Nuttall MEP, Baroness Brinton and Isabel Oakeshott.

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Tonight, we are in Bradford, and this is Question Time.


And a big welcome, whether you are watching or listening, and welcome


to our audience and our panel. Tonight, the Conservative Energy


Secretary, Amber Rudd. Labour's former Shadow Chief Secretary to the


Treasury, Shabana Mahmood. Deputy leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall.


President of the Liberal Democrats, Baroness Brinton, and author of the


controversial biography of David Cameron, about to become political


editor at large of the Daily Mail, Isabel Oakeshott.


Let's have our first question from dawn Thornton. Has David Cameron


done enough to convince the nation to stay in Europe? Amber Rudd. That


is up to the nation to decide when we get the referendum. But do you


think he has done enough to convince the nation? We know the nation will


decide. Yes. That is my point, it is not going to be up to individuals in


government, it will be up to the whole country. My point is to say


that we had a decision to give a referendum, which will take place


this year. David Cameron said he would negotiate, which he has done


and he has brought back a package. It is not a final agreement, but a


package that deals with the things most people find most irritating in


the UK, to do with sovereignty, competitiveness, immigration and not


being left out of decision-making when the eurozone may feel they are


making decisions without us. In your opinion, as the Prime Minister done


enough to convince people in the nation as a whole to stay in? We


have to wait and see because it is not complete. You do not think the


job is done. He's the first to say that. But this is a milestone. In


Parliament, usually we get Prime Minister is offering treaties,


Maastricht, Lisbon, saying this is the treaty the UK will sign up to.


For the first time we have a proposal unique to the UK. It is


great progress. I hope negotiations go well and we will be in a position


to campaign to stay in the EU. Do you still think there are


circumstances where you might stay out, rather than remain? It depends


how the next few weeks go. You are on a knife edge?


I am encouraged by what we have seen, but we are still doing


negotiations and we want to improve on them all the time. There are 27


other member states who had to agree them. Timing will be critical and we


are not there yet. Paul Nuttall. I am surprised you say he has made


great progress because I think we can all agree that what he has come


back with amounts to nothing. He asked for nothing and he will get


nothing. A year ago he was talking about treaty change. There will be


no treaty change, no powers coming back from Brussels to this country,


no return of our fisheries, no reduction in our membership fee.


What he will try to do is to sell this as a great victory. It is not.


It is a great failure. So you must be hugely relieved because everybody


will vote out. I am just not impressed. We are talking about a


few glib lines about competitiveness, opposing ever


greater union, a protection for non-EU rose own countries. I am not


being funny, I sit in the European Parliament. There is ever closer


union on every report we vote on every week. This idea of capping in


work benefits for migrants does not add up to a hill of beans. The


Guardian said today that it will affect very few people indeed,


around 20 8000. Once we have a living wage, the poll will be even


greater than it was before. Beyond that, to ensure this gets through


needs a majority of member states to sign up to it and that is not going


to happen. One last thing, we find out now that the European Parliament


will be able to veto it. I am telling you, the European Parliament


is no friend of Britain. It will not happen, it is not good enough,


ladies and common. It is not good enough.


APPLAUSE I go back to the point that you must


be mightily relieved because your boys wanted to leave Europe anyway.


Well, I think it gives us a better opportunity of leaving because the


British people are clever enough to see through this show rather. The


woman on the left. I am very much for going out of Europe because I


think we are stronger out of it, but do you not think Ukip is actually


the biggest threat for us to leave Europe? Can you explain that. At the


moment, you have infighting between leave Europe and the other campaign,


but do you not think that Ukip and Nigel Farage in particular are the


biggest threat in terms of splitting that campaign and having a dilutive


message? There are two points there. First, we would not have had this


referendum if it was not for Ukip. Let's make that clear. Mr Cameron


offered it to try to shoot the Ukip Fox, and he failed to do so because


we won the European elections after he gave that guarantee. We are only


here because of Ukip in the first place, and Ukip are the party trying


to bring together these two campaigns. One is saying, yes,


please come together. Now is the time, ladies and gentlemen, for


these campaigns to put personalities aside, come together have one strong


team, because personality should not matter. This is about the future of


our country. We need to get our country back and we will only do


that by leaving the European Union. APPLAUSE


The central question, has David Cameron done enough, I don't think


he has done enough yet, because the deal that he has achieved, which


still has to be finalised, is not the central point. That is not the


beginning, nor the end of the important decision we have to make


about whether we stay in the European Union. I think David


Cameron needs to make the more important case about how we cash


back while why we need to stay, and that is the case around the fact


that being in the European Union has established peace and security in


our continent when war is something within living memory, that we have


employment rights secured across Europe as a level playing field in


which our workers benefit from things such as paid leave and equal


rights for part-time workers. And fundamentally, the most important


factor is access to the single market. 500 million people we can


export to without having to pay any kind of tariff. That is a big deal


and he has to make the case for the wider question of why we need to


stay in the European Union. The question for Ukip, which they always


fail to answer when we have a debate about the European Union is, what


does the alternative of coming out of the European Union actually look


like? If it looks like Norway, Iceland or Switzerland, who have


access to the single market but on unfavourable terms that I would not


want to sign up to, they never say which they would prefer. Can I


answer? No, you have had a long say Ulster I will come back to you. Hold


your horses. The person in the second row from


the back. David Cameron knows he has not done enough which is why he is


gagging cabinet ministers from saying what they really think.


Reportedly, Amber Rudd, you are a Eurosceptic. What disappoints me is


that people like you would rather look after your own interests than


actually come out and lose a cabinet position because he has threatened


to sack you. That is not good enough, unfortunately.


APPLAUSE The allegation is that she is a


closet euro-sceptic disguised as an enthusiast. I have unlimited


research on this and there are reports that you are a Eurosceptic.


I am not sure the reporting is entirely accurate. And note the


adverb "Entirely". It is reasonable to sport the Prime Minister in


getting the best negotiation possible. Whether there are people


who still think they would prefer to be out, they still want the British


to have the best choice, which will be the best negotiation we can have,


or out. You would not want the best -- the worst negotiation. That is


why the Cabinet support it. It is hardly fair for the Prime Minister


to put the case as he sees it but sceptics in the Cabinet to be


gagged. I can tell you the sceptics are very supportive of the Prime


Minister to get the best negotiation he can. It does not mean they will


support it but it means the best choice in terms of getting a final


offer. I think this debate we have had now demonstrates how the


Conservatives are completely torn apart on this, and the issues David


Cameron has brought back are very important to those on the margin in


the Conservative Party about whether to stay in or go out. I am a Liberal


Democrat and a passionate believer that this country is stronger in. I


do not want us to end up in the position of Norway, who pay 75% of


their share, as if they were in, but have absolutely no say about


negotiating. Here in Bradford, the effect would be catastrophic. The


cloth and chemical industries so almost exclusively into European


markets, and the moment we retract ourselves from the whole of that


market, we have to have separate barriers, it becomes difficult for


businesses to trade, life becomes much more complicated. For me, this


local example would be replicated right across the country. We remain


stronger in. It is better for us and prosperity. We need to be at the


table to make our voice heard. The one thing I would agree with David


Cameron on and where I would disagree with Euro-sceptics, is that


before he went to Europe the Eurosceptics were saying he would


not get anything at all. He has brought back things. I agree with


Shabana that they are not important things, but by golly, he has got


European nation states talking. That is what is going to have to happen.


We face discussions and compromise. As far as I'm concerned, we need to


make sure we keep going. It is important for business, prosperity,


peace and security. APPLAUSE


Let's hear from some members of our audience and then come back to the


panel. I agree and disagree with some points. With Baroness Brinton,


I agree the Tory party are split by the subject of the EU and whether we


stay in. Going back to the lady in the audience earlier, Ukip are not


split on this issue. They are the only political party who are


actually embracing collaboration. Recently involving Nigel Farage, the


out campaign has been launched, involving a cross-section of


political parties, and as far is I can see the only political party in


Westminster who are advocates of togetherness, partnership and


collaboration. I am a Eurosceptic who is married to


a Polish lady. I would like to know, particularly from Paul, in the event


of us leaving the EU, what would happen to the EU people living in


this country, both those in work and those who are currently on welfare?


You mean Polish people? I mean all EU people. You, sir, in the yellow.


There are some crazy European rules. For instance, somebody could come


from Romania over here, a worker, and claim for their children who are


still in remain near, where in remain near they get ?2 per week


child benefit. Over here, they can claim ?20 per week. How on earth are


the Department for Work and Pensions supposed to work out how much they


will pay per person? We have heard four voices in favour of exit,


leaving, what about remaining? Yes, in the middle. It seems to me that


the hypocrisy of the Ukip MP is breathtaking. He says we are going


to be better off outside Europe, and yet he has decided, in his own


career, to be in Europe in order to influence the way that the EU works.


Where is the sense in that? Well, SNP MPs go to Westminster and they


want to leave, and no one has a problem with that. Let me just


answer a couple of questions. The gentleman there, once we leave the


EU people who are already here Wilmot be asked to leave. We have a


heart. But the simple fact is that we do want to control our own


borders, see an Australian points -based system which does not


discriminate against an Indian doctor, or a Pakistani nurse, or


someone from Australia. We want an equal playing field for everyone


because at the moment we discriminate against those from


outside the European Union and say that anyone can come from within


that block of 28. We believe that is unfair. At the same time, we talk


about peace in Europe. Peace was kept by Nato, not the European


Union. You keep on adding points. I am trying to answer all the points.


They are not all directed to you! I would like to answer the point About


the child benefit. David Cameron said he wanted to end the practise


of people claiming child benefit at home. He's come back with a


half-baked proposal that they should get some collaborated level that is


matching where they come from. Is that not what they are doing? It


depends how high you set the bar. I think this is a shoddy sell out.


APPLAUSE I really struggle to see how David


Cameron can look people in the eye and say this is a good deal for


Britain. The only way that he can do that is, if he's starting from the


premise that we ought to remain in come what may and any little


trifling concession is a massive bonus, and the reality is, that is


actually David Cameron's position, he never intended to bring us out of


the UK, he made those kind of noises but he didn't mean it.


Amber Rudd, do you want to answer that? It's absolutely staggering


that you think that a Prime Minister who goes around 27 different


countries sets out four clear things to achieve, comes back with part of


them, not all of them, describes it as a negotiation, has analyse what


had it is about the UK voter population that they really don't


like and has addressed those specific points. How does it help on


borders for example? On sovereignty? It's about sovereignty and ever


closer union. Ukip's consistently said everything about our EU


agreements nothing will ever come back from closer union and


specifically in this statement, from the EU this week, it's actually


saying there'll be no more ever closer European Union. I vote in the


European Parliament all the time, I vote against it, I watch your MPs


vote in favour of it all the time. Can't you admit it's changed. I


can't. I'm stunned from Paul's declaration that his party has a


hearts. I find it... APPLAUSE


Those words come pretty cheap. I would like it if his party could


demonstrate that they have a heart by not blaming imgrants who're


working in our country for all of our troubles and stop pursuing their


divisive, destructive form of politics. Don't say it, demonstrate


it. Thank you. And with respect to the lady who said that Ukip are not


split, it's very true, Ukip are utterly united on their position in


respect of the European Union but they'll not answer the question of


what coming out of the European Union will actually mean because I


promise you, if it means we have a deal like Norway where it's the


tenth largest contributor to the EU budget even though they are not in


thep the European Union, they have to implement three quarters of the


legislation, all the rules in relation to the internal market and


they are within the Schengen borderless zone so they have less


control over their borders than we do. If it is a deal like that in


order to get access to the single market, then I'm afraid that is a


poor deal. I would rather be in the European Union, fighting for better


rules for our country and making sure we get the best possible deal.


I want to go to Dawn Thornton who asked the question? You have been


listening to this, what do you think of what you have hard so far? I


mean, I personally would like to stay in the EU. I just hope that


when we start doing all the debates, that they butt the pros and cons in


layman's terms sothat people can understand it because unless you


have studied law or the EU, some people haven't got a clue what the


pros and cons are. Listening to our panel...


I'm still confused. APPLAUSE


Listening to our panel, are they talking in clear layman's language


for you about the EU? Yes, some of it they are, but then other stuff


that you hear in the media or that you look up, you get more and more


confused. So I'm waiting really for the debates to start of the going,


staying in or coming out. Let's come back to the audience. I want it to


be fair on this, to take it in turns for pro and anti, the question


remember, has Cameron done enough to convince the nation to stay in


Europe. Let's have a pro-Europe speaker first. Do you want to come


in? Yes. Don't you think that, at a time when we have so many


international crises abroad, it's so important to show a united Europe


and surely all this talk of leaving the EU just shoes how divided we are


and that's playing into the hands of people like Putin who want to see us


as a weak European country. Can you answer this? The point of whether we


should all be working together, I don't think we could be necessarily


any less effective on our own as it were and it's not as if we are


leaving NATO, we are still going to be working very hard to achieve


everything we currently achieve within the union so I don't consider


that a particularly powerful argument. On the issue of ever


closer union which Amber you brought up and, you know, you acted as if it


was a great triumph for David Cameron, I mean I don't know if


anyone in the audience really ever thought that we were going to be


part of ever closer union. It seems to me that this is a bit like David


Cameron saying, my goodness, after a long, long, hard and tough


negotiation, I can confirm that today is Thursday and tomorrow is


going to be Friday. Nobody really thought we were going to be part of


ever closer union. All right. APPLAUSE


I completely disagree. If I could answer the lady's point, in terms of


security I agree, working together is important, and I think that we


are living in a dangerous world with Putin and Daesh and working together


is better for the families, for the country, in terms of our prosperity.


Should it only be done or can it only be done by membership of the E


Snitch It's enhanced our security yes, but working together on the


referendum and the terms that David Cameron's working on has shown


actually EU members working very well together, wanting to deep the


UK in and wanting a fair deal, one that helps the whole of the EU in


terms of competitiveness. Can I knock this Norway thing in the head


right now, we are not Norway, all right, we are Great Britain, we are


the fifth largest economy in the world. We are Europe's biggest


market place, OK. And the simple fact of the matter is, you don't


have to be a member of the EU to have access to the single market.


China did 300 billion euros worth of trade last year with the EU, the US


did 250 billion worth of trade last year. They... You are missing the


point. Without being in the European Union. They did that without being


in the European Union. We can too. You are missing the point. The point


about Norway is that it pays in and has to abide by the rules. Of course


we are not identical to Norway. If we want to remove ourselves from the


union, we have to play by the union's rules and contribute and


that's the key problem that not many people... We have a bespoke European


deal. We need us more than they need us. We took a speaker, you, in


favour of remain, I would like to take somebody in favour of out and


then somebody else. You with the beard and the spectacles?


Volkswagen, all the rest of them, Skoda and the rest, Mercedes, are


you telling me that they'll have to stick to the rules and not sell into


this country. A great deal of the parts for all the cars and other


industries come from this country, are you now telling me they'll no


longer deal with us? Why do you want to leave, you obviously don't want


to remain? I never wanted to be in in the first place, we were nefsh


given the choice. We were only given the choice to remain within the


Common Market. We went in already. We weren't given the choices to go


in. My generation, a great deal of us, did not want tos be in. Did you


vote in the first referendum? I did. You are old enough? Yes.


LAUGHTER Harold Wilson in the document


published said, and Wilson said, we are only at the start of our


relationship with the European community, so when you say it was


only a Common Market, he Didak chillily expect things to change. He


didn't give any inkling. Did you vote no? Yes. Had a second chance in


a lifetime? Yes and I will vote no again. The woman up there please on


the right? I think it's really clear to understand what the alternatives


are. The lady on the panel already alluded to this, we don't know what


will happen if we do come out. We talk a lot about what happens when


we are in the EU, but I'm on the fence, I don't know what the


alternatives are and that's what we need to hear more of.


APPLAUSE. And what are your worries, either


way, about that? What do you fear? We have to abide by the rules, we


wouldn't be able to make our own choices, I want to know for me as a


citizen of the UK how we'd be affected if we weren't in the EU,


there are no answers. It's unknown, we don't know how it will look for


us so it's hard to make the choice. You in the third row? I would vote


yes to stay in, firstly because you can see in the audience today the


diversity and the benefits, particularly living in a city like


Bradford, that being part of the European Union brings. That's the


first point. The second point is, Ukip is scaremongering people and


not providing the clear statistics and I totally agree with Shabana


about the greater benefits being part of the European Union.




I think we should move on. I said the debate begins here on Question


Time tonight and it will go on week after week after week until we get


this referendum. We still don't know when it will be. You wanted it the


end of June yourself? If we get agreement, we'll have it at the end


of June, we hope. We are not going to be rushed about timing, we ant


the best deal we can for the UK -- we want. Next week, we are going to


be in Llanelli in Wales. The following week, we are in


Stratford-upon-Avon. There's the address to apply. I'll give it again


at the end of the programme. Fatima Hussain, please?


Why is the government only targeting Muslim women to learn English and


not everyone else from every other country?


APPLAUSE This refers to David Cameron's


pledging ?20 million to teach English to women and saying if you


don't improve your fluency that could affect your ability to stay in


the UK. And we are in Bradford which has something like a quarter I think


Asian origin in the population. Shabana Mahmood, what do you make of


that idea of persuading or almost indeed inducing people to learn to


speak English? Frankly the Prime Minister's case would have had more


force if he was not the Prime Minister that presided over huge


cuts to the English for speakers of other languages budget in the first


place. He massively cut that budget and now he offers ?20 million and


picks Muslim women as the big symbolic group to receive that


money. I have to say, few things have angered and frankly upset me


more than the article than the Prime Minister wrote in the Times


newspaper linking a failure by first generation immigrant Muslim women to


be able to speak English or speak English fluently with


radicalisation. That was frankly disgraceful.


It's not backed up by any evidence and if it was the case that it was


leading to radicalisation, frankly Birmingham in the '50s would have


been a hot bed of terrorism because so many first generation terrorists


came in at that point. It was a ridiculous, dangerous argument


because we have this avalanche of negativity coming from all sections


around the British Muslim community and the Prime Minister, who is


supposed to set the tone of the debate in our country, decides to


make this spurious, unfounded link between English language which is


incredibly important and which I really support. With that and


radicalisation, it's frankly a nonsense and also deeply dangerous.


APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? You support the


targeting of this money to help the most vulnerable women in this


situation? I want funding for English language for all groups


because it's so fundamental that everybody in our country can speak


English. Of course, in an environment where there's less


money, it's about targeting the most vulnerable. If 22% of Muslim women


have very poor or no English, incidentally compared 2010% of men,


isn't it right to target the money that we have to help them? We can


target to help them so that those women are better protected


themselves so they can engage at schools with the doctors, they are


just much more protected as individual women and it also means


they can then play a role in society, get jobs, volunteer, help


in society and the business of going to, like most MPs, I have people


come to my surgery and sometimes the parents can't speak English, the


women particularly can't, and the children help them translate so I


think it's absolutely right to target the women that you have


who're most vulnerable. And the women particularly in terms of


helping people in society, I feel strongly about that. I want to


interpose one point. In that article in the Times that you mentioned, the


Prime Minister wrote: "If you don't improve your fluency, that could


affect your ability to stay in the UK. " What does that mean, they kick


people out? We have various pieces of


legislation which are enforced. I am not entirely clear what that means.


You describe it as an inducement. It is a serious approach to help the


most vulnerable. Shabana, people like you should take it more


seriously that these people are isolated. You say they are


vulnerable and you are going to kick them out of the country. Why is it


too much to ask for people who live here really long-term to be able to


speaking this? APPLAUSE


We are not talking about an obscure language, Swire Healey or something.


If you are going to be part of our society, I believe you should be


able to communicate and it is to your advantage to be able to


communicate. I agree people should be able to speaking Laois and should


be supported to do so. If the Prime Minister had not slashed that budget


when he came into power, more people would be able to speak English


today. He is now trying to ride in as the saviour of Muslims in but it


was the link with the radicalisation which was his big a point which was


absolutely unjustified. Not only did he cut that budget, but with the


various cuts to local government, the number of local community groups


that assist people like the Asian ladies, the Muslims in, we have lots


of those and also lots of European people coming into this country.


They have been badly affected by cuts to local government. I work in


local government and I know how badly affected Bradford Council has


been. It is ridiculous. Paul Nuttall, what do you make of what


Shabana describes as the threat of radicalisation by mothers not


speaking English? I don't think it helps. What do you mean, is it true


or not? Well, look, if you live in this country, it is to your own


benefit to speak the language and to be able to integrate. That is not


the question. Address the question. The Prime Minister wrote "Think


about the young boy growing up in Bradford, his mum can't speaking


wish so he finds it hard to communicate with her. As a teenager


he struggled to identify with Western culture. When that happens,


the extremist narrative gives them something to believe in, however


ridiculous". I think it increases the chances of people being


indoctrinated by radicalisation. We need to put a halt to it. 22% of


Muslim and do not speaking wish, or speak poor English. If you want to


integrate and not be cut off from employment opportunities, cut out of


the democratic process... I remember the old and by-election recently,


and a Guardian journalist said it was depressing how many people in


the Pakistani and Bangladeshi community did not speak English. It


is the cost as well to society, the amount spent on translators in the


NHS, the police, the public sector. If you want to be part of our


society and reap the great benefits of living in Britain, then you


should learn the language. Simple as that.


APPLAUSE The point is not that we want people


to speak English. I think we all agree we want people to be able to


communicate. It is just that by targeting Muslim women, he is


feeding on stereotypes, breeding hatred. He made a passing comment


about Muslim women being traditionally submissive. Tell that


to the thousands of women who work, who do amazing things in society. He


is just belittling them. APPLAUSE


If you were to swap the word target for support, would that make it


easier to accept? If we said he wants to support Muslim ladies who


can't speaking wish, rather than target them, I think that puts a


completely different meaning on it. I think he is wanting to support


them. It is not only the language but the culture. He is talking about


children who grow up not being able to communicate with parents and


grandparents. It is also a mixed culture, where sometimes in Asian


communities, you have your elders who are living in an Asian


community, and Asian mindset, not really understanding the youngsters


who have grown up very Western. The question was really important. She


asked, why is it only Muslim Women's Network targeted. There are plenty


of other people in this country who arrive and do not have English, men


and women. -- Muslim women who are targeted. It is wrong... It's


important that everyone has the chance to learn the language. But


the real problem with David Cameron's article was the link with


radicalisation. And it was real dog whistle politics. And I think it was


done utterly cynically, to try and attract some of the Ukip leaning


voters who might be sympathetic with it. I say this in the context of a


Ukip broadcast yesterday which, placed in front of a minaret in


Turkey, was encouraging people to be very suspicious about people from


Turkey. I have Turkish friends who were very distressed by what they


saw last night and I believe it we go on with this sort of politics the


referendum will start to become about parts of our community rather


than the benefits of being in Europe. The strength of this country


over the last 70 years has been our diverse communities working


together, as you do in Bradford. I have certainly seen it in my own


community in Watford. Paul Nuttall, explain what this was yesterday. The


broadcast last night was focusing on the fact that David Cameron and


other political parties in this country eventually want Turkey to


join the European Union. Turkey is a country where only 3% of it falls


into Europe, has lower living standards than any other country in


the European Union. We heard before how you were saying the European


Union brings security. You let Turkey in, it has borders with Iraq,


Iran and Syria. Will that help security in this country? I think we


have a valid point to say no to Turkey joining the European Union.


Paul is starting to repeat the myths and errors of that broadcast last


night. It is completely relevant. It was made to look like a documentary.


It reached guidelines, because if you are copying the style of a


programme, you are supposed to make it clear. You did not, and there


were plenty of facts that were absolutely wrong as well. Did anyone


see that last night? I thought it was very informative. I think you


are missing the point that the Americans are increasing armoured


vehicles in Europe by 100%, and feet on the ground in Europe, because of


the threat of what is coming out of Russia and Eastern Europe. This is a


bit of a smoke screen, to me. Amber Rudd, let's just come back to the


point about Cameron using this point about language to talk about


extremism, conflating the two ideas. Well, I do agree with the article


when it says, as read out to me, that if the mother cannot speak to


her child then it is going to be difficult for her to communicate the


very strong British values that we have got. And I think we have to be


careful about not pussyfooting around. With respect... British


values are important and something we should not avoid. Sometimes the


left is too much about saying we must not interfere with these


cultural areas. I am sorry... There was a problem here, which is that


Muslim would need language skills. -- Muslims in need language skills.


You have repeated the fundamental mistake. If you look at people who


have gone to Syria to get involved with IS, they are university


graduates. Their mum has nothing to do with it.


APPLAUSE The fact that they are university


graduates is utterly terrifying. Instead of dealing with the scary


fact in our midst, you have gone on to pick on Muslim Women's Network


struggle with English. There is no link, you keep making it and it is


really divisive and unfair. -- Muslim women who struggle with


English. I am a lecturer here in Bradford and what upsets me about


this narrative is the presumption that Asian women do not want to


integrate. They absolutely do. There are huge waiting lists. Is that


Asian women of all ages, over 65? Absolutely. We have loads of


students from the younger section but also mothers and grandmothers


who want to get out there and learn these skills. And the provision was


taken away from them. Do you welcome the government proposal to spend 20


million? Of course, and the women want it, too. But not targeted only


at them because they are muslin women. Everybody should be supported


to speak English, but targeting in this way was deeply wrong. A


question from Richard Frost. Does politics need controversial


characters like Donald Trump from time to time to revitalise interest


from voters? What do you think? I think the danger is when those


idiots get elected. APPLAUSE


Paul Nuttall. Well... Maybe you should ask that next week. OK,


Donald Trump. I think people like Donald Trump are the result of bland


politicians, who never give a straight answer to a straight


question, which is true. Come on. They avoid speaking what they


consider to be the truth. Before, when we were talking about


Conservative Cabinet member 's and politicians who want to leave the


European Union but do not have the bottle to come out and put their


country above their own political career. So -- who is going to be our


Donald Trump in Europe? We have not got one at the moment but the rise


of Donald Trump is the result of bland politicians in America. We


might end up with a Donald Trump over here, but the problem is when


people like Donald Trump get elected. Does it scare me if he


becomes American president? It probably would. The journalist in me


would always want, -- colourful politicians. I remember the Monster


Raving Loony Party. Sadly that died out. I think there is a problem with


politics being too grey, too boring, men in suits. Colourful characters


like Trump, whether you agree with him or not, enliven a debate. He


will spark a debate. You saw what happened when he came out with his


crazy comments about not letting any Muslims into America. We have an


extraordinary lively debate about that here in the UK. Yes, I would


probably be a bit alarmed if he became president, but he says things


others do not dare to. I was looking before coming on the programme today


about what else he has said and I disagreed with most of it. But, for


example, he says we should have Merry Christmas in American stores


at Christmas time, rather than happy holidays. That is a great point and


others will not come out with it. Good for him, I say. The politics


around this table has not been grey tonight. Because there are lots of


ladies. I think we need these controversial characters. The


Conservatives always say it is Labour's fault. Labour always blame


the Conservatives. We need these people to spice up politics and make


it a bit more exciting, rather than just playing the blame game all the


time, which is all you ever do. Donald Trump keeps repeating that he


is not a politician and that is what makes him different. He is a


politician, and you should never trust a politician who says he is


not a politician. I am afraid I cannot be quite so excited about


Donald Trump and talk about how he is in live in debate and making it


all very interesting. Most of his rhetoric around Muslims is frankly


terrifying. I am a practising British Muslim, so when I hear him,


I don't think, this is an interesting debate and I'm excited


to listen to it. I just think, that is scary and I hope nobody in our


country things like that, because it would be bad for Britain's Muslims.


I cannot take a bland approach, like others.


Isabel, Donald Trump when he says some hateful speech, he's a


colourful character and if the same speech was delivered by a Muslim


cleric or someone like that, he'd be a terrorist. Amber Rudd?


APPLAUSE You get these double standards. He's


allowed to get away with things? Yes. I would like to dump the Trump,


you know. APPLAUSE That is exact hi the sort


of phrase he might think up, isn't it. He refers to himself always as


the Donald or the Trump. So actually American politics at the moment is


fascinating and there's quite a lot of interesting characters out there


so I don't think he's going to continue to dominate the headlines,


I certainly hope some of the others will get a fair shot soon. I want to


hear from Bradford again. A question from Kerry Noble, please? Has the


northern powerhouse run out of steam? Has the northern powerhouse,


George Osborne's phrase, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, we need


a new northern powerhouse, has this run out of steam, in other words how


are things going on in Bradford. What do you think, by the way? I


don't think it ever got started, never mind run out of steam. I see.


APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? The point about the


northern powerhouse was to make sure that the expansion in the economy,


the new jobs, businesses, didn't just happen in the south-east or


London and, George Osborne set out very specifically to make sure that


the growth in the country did reach all parts and was particularly


reaching the northern powerhouse. The bit that I was particularly


pleased by and impressed by was the effort on road and rail and on rail


we have seen... Electrification in rail, we have


seen that, which is very expensive. Manchester and Liverpool.


HECKLING... Are you feeling you're part of the


northern powerhouse in Bradford? You in the checked shirt? Well, I come


from Essex, for starters. Oh, great! My only comment is that we are


talking about high-speed trains... You have come all the way from Essex


to appear on Question Time? It's a long story, I won't go into it. We


were talking about high speed trains, the only thing I can think


of is national media museums and a large number of the artefacts are


moving down to London, so... Yes. That is a local issue. 400,000


photographic archive which has been here in Bradford for years, it was


announced yesterday that it will go to the V A. Leaving that for the


moment, what do you think Shabana? I was just wondering when Amber was


saying how pleased she is with progress in relation to the northern


powerhouse, whether she's equally pleased that one of the Sheffield


offices for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has


now shut down, its job was to deliver the powerhouse and the jobs


have been shifted back to London. That doesn't seem like a northern


powerhouse raging forward and delivering mean meaningful


devolution. When you heard the intention announced, did you believe


it or did you think it was purely a propaganda statement? I think it's


entirely part of George Osborne's plan to try to get his way into


Downing Street. But hang on, if he says he's going to have a northern


powerhouse, everybody here in Bradford will expect to feel the


effect of that and if they don't they'll blame him, you can't just do


it by smoke and mirrors, can you? Well that, to be fair, is George


Osborne's modus operandi when it comes to the economy more generally.


I think that the northern powerhouse concept was important for him as


part of his own political story, for his road to Number Ten, I think he


wanted to show he cared about the north. He does. And the truth is


that, if you really want to have proper devolution in our country


where cities and regions can come together and go forward with their


own story on economic competitiveness, you have to do that


in a comprehensive way, not just the piecemeal approach. He's gone for


the northern powerhouse, we may have a Midlands engine, it's too bitty


and piecemeal. Sal Brinton? The infrastructure proposals are really


important to the powerhouse because the point about it is that it joins


up some of the centres of excellence in the north. The coalition


Government agreed this would happen. The moment the Conservatives were


back in power, they threw the infrastructure into the long grass.


So one of the key building blocks that's going to make it happen has


if not gone, certainly been delayed for a really long time. It's


incredibly important that we capture what is going on well. Today in the


local paper it's talking about a new super targeted cancer drug which was


invented here in Bradford, it's moving on for development. For a


northern powerhouse, we shouldn't just be talking about invention, but


developing manufacturer here to create jobs, we should be talking


about making sure the academic expertise that's doing that is


plugged into the other universities, not just in the north but elsewhere


as well. My problem is, with the Government saying it's removing its


support in making the important links, it's just going to slowly


fade away. You, Sir, in the second row? I live


in Leeds just a few miles away and I think my concern, having lived in


the city for about ten years, is that the economic growth and things


that we see in the city appears unsustainable. It's very


retail-based, very building-based. What I want to know is what are we


going to do about bringing the greatness back to the north which is


industry, which is, you know, developing local talent and keeping


it local? Do you feel there is any sign of that happening? At the


minute, like I say, from my perspective in Leeds, it's


retail-based and if that's not sustainable in the current economic


climate... I've no doubt the northern powerhouse was and is an


economic aspiration. But it's also and in and was an electioneering


device. I mean, the Tories in reality have long had a massive


problem with their support base beyond London and the Home Counties.


So the northern powerhouse was without doubt a device to boost


support in those areas where the infrastructure projects were


targeted. I think what we, as journalists have to do, is ensure


that there isn't slippage of all those projects that were announced


now that Cameron is home and dry with a little majority that he has.


You, in the spectacles? I think the northern powerhouse is kind of


summing up the Tory Government strategy of saying anything to your


face and doing something completely different while you're not looking.


It's a distraction tactic. They'll say anything and they'll contradict


themselves tomorrow. David Cameron will talk about defending


sovereignty while passing contentious legislation through back


door committees, he's not defending sovereignty of Parliament at all,


he's saying anything to your face. Are you a Bradford man? I'm from


Sheffield. Do you sense any change in the last five years? No, it's not


genuine. It's just buzz words and jingoism. And nothing is happening?


That's not happening. It's simply not true. There is growth, the


economy is growing, unemployment is falling, investment is rising, we


have big projects going on. Unemployment is falling because of


zero hour contracts and part-time work. People might have a job but it


doesn't pay enough, it's not enough hours, you are talking about cutting


in-work benefits as well which was promise nod to be cut. You talk


about getting the votes, you say you will do it and it's not happening.


I'm a model railway fan and I'm currently building a model wailway


that contains a steelworks. It's now the only steelworks in the


north-east that works! LAUGHTER


APPLAUSE You will find yourself undercut by


Chinese! The woman at the back then back to


you, Paul? Cameron doesn't care about the north, that's why


Sheffield steel is allowed to go to the wall and why bankers get to keep


their jobs. Paul Nuttall? I'll be honest and


I've said this on many occasions, I'm fed up with how London dominates


the political and economical life of this country. The northern


powerhouse is just a piece of political spin, never mind running


out of steam. In London, they get around ?5,000 spent on them on


infrastructure, in the north-east it's ?200, not much more here in


Yorkshire, it's not good enough and I will throw this example out, they


are arguing about a third runway for Heathrow or extending Gatwick, why


don't we extend Leeds Bradford, bring the trade up here? !




You, Sir? You mentioned earlier on the panel


that it was a political move, I totally agree with that, you also


earlier asked is there any change in Bradford. I'm from Bradford and it's


only recently after ten years we've got a shopping centre in Bradford,


never mind the powerhouse, so I think there's got to be real


investment brought to Bradford. The woman second row from the back, do


you feel the northern powerhouse means something? Absolutely not. I'm


in a strange position of agreeing with Isabel Oakeshott in that it was


aer clearly a device to get votes in the north before the election, a


cynical device so as soon as the election was over, actually we have


seen absolutely nothing here. If anything you see the opposite, big


austerity cuts to the county, cultural things moving to London,


jobs moving to London from Sheffield. It's pretty much an


insult to people here, they have to pull themselves up by the boots, we


have a good heritage and good economic possibilities, and we have


things taken away. APPLAUSE I would say perhaps to the


local authority grants because we had to cut the deficit and we were


elected on the basis of reducing the deficit and cuts. Nobody likes cuts


but that has to happen. In terms of investment in other areas, we have


been encouraging new manufacturing, we have new announcements, opening


new offshore wind with increasing jobs, we have been investing in my


sector to get nuclear going, in Sheffield we have a project on small


modular reactors moving forward, so there are projects moving forward,


particularly in the private sector which is exactly what the northern


powerhouse is trying to deliver. Sal talked about infrastructure, we have


set up the national infrastructure commission to look at long-term...


Long grass, long grass. Dear, oh, dear. The idea is to make sure it's


cross party and gets continued and doesn't have the cynical response.


Invest in the north! OK. We have to stop. Our time is up


here in Bradford. We are in Llanelli next week, in Wales, the comedian


Romesh Ranganathan. To join the audience in Llanelli, or


extraordinaried for upon Avon the week after, get if touch, the


details are on the screen. Our debate continues on Question Time


extra time. Thank you to the panel, the audience and Question Time,


until next Thursday, good night.


David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Bradford. On the panel: Conservative energy secretary Amber Rudd MP, Labour's former shadow chief secretary to the treasury Shabana Mahmood MP, deputy leader of Ukip Paul Nuttall MEP, president of the Liberal Democrats Baroness Brinton and the Daily Mail's soon to be political editor-at-large Isabel Oakeshott.

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