04/02/2016 Question Time


04/02/2016

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Bradford. On the panel: Amber Rudd MP, Shabana Mahmood MP, Paul Nuttall MEP, Baroness Brinton and Isabel Oakeshott.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 04/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Tonight, we are in Bradford, and this is Question Time.

:00:07.:00:19.

And a big welcome, whether you are watching or listening, and welcome

:00:20.:00:25.

to our audience and our panel. Tonight, the Conservative Energy

:00:26.:00:29.

Secretary, Amber Rudd. Labour's former Shadow Chief Secretary to the

:00:30.:00:34.

Treasury, Shabana Mahmood. Deputy leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall.

:00:35.:00:38.

President of the Liberal Democrats, Baroness Brinton, and author of the

:00:39.:00:42.

controversial biography of David Cameron, about to become political

:00:43.:00:46.

editor at large of the Daily Mail, Isabel Oakeshott.

:00:47.:00:59.

Let's have our first question from dawn Thornton. Has David Cameron

:01:00.:01:27.

done enough to convince the nation to stay in Europe? Amber Rudd. That

:01:28.:01:35.

is up to the nation to decide when we get the referendum. But do you

:01:36.:01:40.

think he has done enough to convince the nation? We know the nation will

:01:41.:01:45.

decide. Yes. That is my point, it is not going to be up to individuals in

:01:46.:01:49.

government, it will be up to the whole country. My point is to say

:01:50.:01:53.

that we had a decision to give a referendum, which will take place

:01:54.:01:57.

this year. David Cameron said he would negotiate, which he has done

:01:58.:02:01.

and he has brought back a package. It is not a final agreement, but a

:02:02.:02:05.

package that deals with the things most people find most irritating in

:02:06.:02:11.

the UK, to do with sovereignty, competitiveness, immigration and not

:02:12.:02:14.

being left out of decision-making when the eurozone may feel they are

:02:15.:02:19.

making decisions without us. In your opinion, as the Prime Minister done

:02:20.:02:22.

enough to convince people in the nation as a whole to stay in? We

:02:23.:02:27.

have to wait and see because it is not complete. You do not think the

:02:28.:02:33.

job is done. He's the first to say that. But this is a milestone. In

:02:34.:02:38.

Parliament, usually we get Prime Minister is offering treaties,

:02:39.:02:42.

Maastricht, Lisbon, saying this is the treaty the UK will sign up to.

:02:43.:02:47.

For the first time we have a proposal unique to the UK. It is

:02:48.:02:51.

great progress. I hope negotiations go well and we will be in a position

:02:52.:02:57.

to campaign to stay in the EU. Do you still think there are

:02:58.:03:02.

circumstances where you might stay out, rather than remain? It depends

:03:03.:03:06.

how the next few weeks go. You are on a knife edge?

:03:07.:03:14.

I am encouraged by what we have seen, but we are still doing

:03:15.:03:17.

negotiations and we want to improve on them all the time. There are 27

:03:18.:03:21.

other member states who had to agree them. Timing will be critical and we

:03:22.:03:28.

are not there yet. Paul Nuttall. I am surprised you say he has made

:03:29.:03:31.

great progress because I think we can all agree that what he has come

:03:32.:03:35.

back with amounts to nothing. He asked for nothing and he will get

:03:36.:03:39.

nothing. A year ago he was talking about treaty change. There will be

:03:40.:03:44.

no treaty change, no powers coming back from Brussels to this country,

:03:45.:03:48.

no return of our fisheries, no reduction in our membership fee.

:03:49.:03:54.

What he will try to do is to sell this as a great victory. It is not.

:03:55.:04:00.

It is a great failure. So you must be hugely relieved because everybody

:04:01.:04:04.

will vote out. I am just not impressed. We are talking about a

:04:05.:04:10.

few glib lines about competitiveness, opposing ever

:04:11.:04:13.

greater union, a protection for non-EU rose own countries. I am not

:04:14.:04:18.

being funny, I sit in the European Parliament. There is ever closer

:04:19.:04:22.

union on every report we vote on every week. This idea of capping in

:04:23.:04:28.

work benefits for migrants does not add up to a hill of beans. The

:04:29.:04:32.

Guardian said today that it will affect very few people indeed,

:04:33.:04:38.

around 20 8000. Once we have a living wage, the poll will be even

:04:39.:04:43.

greater than it was before. Beyond that, to ensure this gets through

:04:44.:04:47.

needs a majority of member states to sign up to it and that is not going

:04:48.:04:52.

to happen. One last thing, we find out now that the European Parliament

:04:53.:04:56.

will be able to veto it. I am telling you, the European Parliament

:04:57.:05:00.

is no friend of Britain. It will not happen, it is not good enough,

:05:01.:05:04.

ladies and common. It is not good enough.

:05:05.:05:04.

APPLAUSE I go back to the point that you must

:05:05.:05:13.

be mightily relieved because your boys wanted to leave Europe anyway.

:05:14.:05:18.

Well, I think it gives us a better opportunity of leaving because the

:05:19.:05:22.

British people are clever enough to see through this show rather. The

:05:23.:05:28.

woman on the left. I am very much for going out of Europe because I

:05:29.:05:32.

think we are stronger out of it, but do you not think Ukip is actually

:05:33.:05:36.

the biggest threat for us to leave Europe? Can you explain that. At the

:05:37.:05:42.

moment, you have infighting between leave Europe and the other campaign,

:05:43.:05:48.

but do you not think that Ukip and Nigel Farage in particular are the

:05:49.:05:52.

biggest threat in terms of splitting that campaign and having a dilutive

:05:53.:05:58.

message? There are two points there. First, we would not have had this

:05:59.:06:01.

referendum if it was not for Ukip. Let's make that clear. Mr Cameron

:06:02.:06:07.

offered it to try to shoot the Ukip Fox, and he failed to do so because

:06:08.:06:10.

we won the European elections after he gave that guarantee. We are only

:06:11.:06:15.

here because of Ukip in the first place, and Ukip are the party trying

:06:16.:06:18.

to bring together these two campaigns. One is saying, yes,

:06:19.:06:25.

please come together. Now is the time, ladies and gentlemen, for

:06:26.:06:29.

these campaigns to put personalities aside, come together have one strong

:06:30.:06:33.

team, because personality should not matter. This is about the future of

:06:34.:06:38.

our country. We need to get our country back and we will only do

:06:39.:06:41.

that by leaving the European Union. APPLAUSE

:06:42.:06:47.

The central question, has David Cameron done enough, I don't think

:06:48.:06:52.

he has done enough yet, because the deal that he has achieved, which

:06:53.:06:56.

still has to be finalised, is not the central point. That is not the

:06:57.:07:00.

beginning, nor the end of the important decision we have to make

:07:01.:07:04.

about whether we stay in the European Union. I think David

:07:05.:07:06.

Cameron needs to make the more important case about how we cash

:07:07.:07:11.

back while why we need to stay, and that is the case around the fact

:07:12.:07:15.

that being in the European Union has established peace and security in

:07:16.:07:19.

our continent when war is something within living memory, that we have

:07:20.:07:23.

employment rights secured across Europe as a level playing field in

:07:24.:07:27.

which our workers benefit from things such as paid leave and equal

:07:28.:07:32.

rights for part-time workers. And fundamentally, the most important

:07:33.:07:34.

factor is access to the single market. 500 million people we can

:07:35.:07:40.

export to without having to pay any kind of tariff. That is a big deal

:07:41.:07:44.

and he has to make the case for the wider question of why we need to

:07:45.:07:48.

stay in the European Union. The question for Ukip, which they always

:07:49.:07:52.

fail to answer when we have a debate about the European Union is, what

:07:53.:07:57.

does the alternative of coming out of the European Union actually look

:07:58.:08:01.

like? If it looks like Norway, Iceland or Switzerland, who have

:08:02.:08:04.

access to the single market but on unfavourable terms that I would not

:08:05.:08:07.

want to sign up to, they never say which they would prefer. Can I

:08:08.:08:15.

answer? No, you have had a long say Ulster I will come back to you. Hold

:08:16.:08:17.

your horses. The person in the second row from

:08:18.:08:27.

the back. David Cameron knows he has not done enough which is why he is

:08:28.:08:31.

gagging cabinet ministers from saying what they really think.

:08:32.:08:35.

Reportedly, Amber Rudd, you are a Eurosceptic. What disappoints me is

:08:36.:08:40.

that people like you would rather look after your own interests than

:08:41.:08:44.

actually come out and lose a cabinet position because he has threatened

:08:45.:08:48.

to sack you. That is not good enough, unfortunately.

:08:49.:08:48.

APPLAUSE The allegation is that she is a

:08:49.:08:58.

closet euro-sceptic disguised as an enthusiast. I have unlimited

:08:59.:09:01.

research on this and there are reports that you are a Eurosceptic.

:09:02.:09:08.

I am not sure the reporting is entirely accurate. And note the

:09:09.:09:15.

adverb "Entirely". It is reasonable to sport the Prime Minister in

:09:16.:09:17.

getting the best negotiation possible. Whether there are people

:09:18.:09:22.

who still think they would prefer to be out, they still want the British

:09:23.:09:26.

to have the best choice, which will be the best negotiation we can have,

:09:27.:09:31.

or out. You would not want the best -- the worst negotiation. That is

:09:32.:09:39.

why the Cabinet support it. It is hardly fair for the Prime Minister

:09:40.:09:42.

to put the case as he sees it but sceptics in the Cabinet to be

:09:43.:09:46.

gagged. I can tell you the sceptics are very supportive of the Prime

:09:47.:09:50.

Minister to get the best negotiation he can. It does not mean they will

:09:51.:09:54.

support it but it means the best choice in terms of getting a final

:09:55.:10:02.

offer. I think this debate we have had now demonstrates how the

:10:03.:10:05.

Conservatives are completely torn apart on this, and the issues David

:10:06.:10:09.

Cameron has brought back are very important to those on the margin in

:10:10.:10:12.

the Conservative Party about whether to stay in or go out. I am a Liberal

:10:13.:10:17.

Democrat and a passionate believer that this country is stronger in. I

:10:18.:10:22.

do not want us to end up in the position of Norway, who pay 75% of

:10:23.:10:28.

their share, as if they were in, but have absolutely no say about

:10:29.:10:34.

negotiating. Here in Bradford, the effect would be catastrophic. The

:10:35.:10:39.

cloth and chemical industries so almost exclusively into European

:10:40.:10:43.

markets, and the moment we retract ourselves from the whole of that

:10:44.:10:47.

market, we have to have separate barriers, it becomes difficult for

:10:48.:10:51.

businesses to trade, life becomes much more complicated. For me, this

:10:52.:10:57.

local example would be replicated right across the country. We remain

:10:58.:11:02.

stronger in. It is better for us and prosperity. We need to be at the

:11:03.:11:05.

table to make our voice heard. The one thing I would agree with David

:11:06.:11:08.

Cameron on and where I would disagree with Euro-sceptics, is that

:11:09.:11:13.

before he went to Europe the Eurosceptics were saying he would

:11:14.:11:16.

not get anything at all. He has brought back things. I agree with

:11:17.:11:21.

Shabana that they are not important things, but by golly, he has got

:11:22.:11:27.

European nation states talking. That is what is going to have to happen.

:11:28.:11:32.

We face discussions and compromise. As far as I'm concerned, we need to

:11:33.:11:37.

make sure we keep going. It is important for business, prosperity,

:11:38.:11:39.

peace and security. APPLAUSE

:11:40.:11:46.

Let's hear from some members of our audience and then come back to the

:11:47.:11:53.

panel. I agree and disagree with some points. With Baroness Brinton,

:11:54.:12:00.

I agree the Tory party are split by the subject of the EU and whether we

:12:01.:12:04.

stay in. Going back to the lady in the audience earlier, Ukip are not

:12:05.:12:11.

split on this issue. They are the only political party who are

:12:12.:12:15.

actually embracing collaboration. Recently involving Nigel Farage, the

:12:16.:12:21.

out campaign has been launched, involving a cross-section of

:12:22.:12:24.

political parties, and as far is I can see the only political party in

:12:25.:12:29.

Westminster who are advocates of togetherness, partnership and

:12:30.:12:36.

collaboration. I am a Eurosceptic who is married to

:12:37.:12:42.

a Polish lady. I would like to know, particularly from Paul, in the event

:12:43.:12:47.

of us leaving the EU, what would happen to the EU people living in

:12:48.:12:52.

this country, both those in work and those who are currently on welfare?

:12:53.:13:00.

You mean Polish people? I mean all EU people. You, sir, in the yellow.

:13:01.:13:10.

There are some crazy European rules. For instance, somebody could come

:13:11.:13:15.

from Romania over here, a worker, and claim for their children who are

:13:16.:13:18.

still in remain near, where in remain near they get ?2 per week

:13:19.:13:22.

child benefit. Over here, they can claim ?20 per week. How on earth are

:13:23.:13:33.

the Department for Work and Pensions supposed to work out how much they

:13:34.:13:39.

will pay per person? We have heard four voices in favour of exit,

:13:40.:13:46.

leaving, what about remaining? Yes, in the middle. It seems to me that

:13:47.:13:53.

the hypocrisy of the Ukip MP is breathtaking. He says we are going

:13:54.:14:00.

to be better off outside Europe, and yet he has decided, in his own

:14:01.:14:04.

career, to be in Europe in order to influence the way that the EU works.

:14:05.:14:12.

Where is the sense in that? Well, SNP MPs go to Westminster and they

:14:13.:14:15.

want to leave, and no one has a problem with that. Let me just

:14:16.:14:23.

answer a couple of questions. The gentleman there, once we leave the

:14:24.:14:27.

EU people who are already here Wilmot be asked to leave. We have a

:14:28.:14:32.

heart. But the simple fact is that we do want to control our own

:14:33.:14:36.

borders, see an Australian points -based system which does not

:14:37.:14:40.

discriminate against an Indian doctor, or a Pakistani nurse, or

:14:41.:14:45.

someone from Australia. We want an equal playing field for everyone

:14:46.:14:48.

because at the moment we discriminate against those from

:14:49.:14:51.

outside the European Union and say that anyone can come from within

:14:52.:14:56.

that block of 28. We believe that is unfair. At the same time, we talk

:14:57.:15:02.

about peace in Europe. Peace was kept by Nato, not the European

:15:03.:15:07.

Union. You keep on adding points. I am trying to answer all the points.

:15:08.:15:21.

They are not all directed to you! I would like to answer the point About

:15:22.:15:27.

the child benefit. David Cameron said he wanted to end the practise

:15:28.:15:31.

of people claiming child benefit at home. He's come back with a

:15:32.:15:36.

half-baked proposal that they should get some collaborated level that is

:15:37.:15:43.

matching where they come from. Is that not what they are doing? It

:15:44.:15:50.

depends how high you set the bar. I think this is a shoddy sell out.

:15:51.:15:55.

APPLAUSE I really struggle to see how David

:15:56.:15:58.

Cameron can look people in the eye and say this is a good deal for

:15:59.:16:03.

Britain. The only way that he can do that is, if he's starting from the

:16:04.:16:08.

premise that we ought to remain in come what may and any little

:16:09.:16:13.

trifling concession is a massive bonus, and the reality is, that is

:16:14.:16:17.

actually David Cameron's position, he never intended to bring us out of

:16:18.:16:21.

the UK, he made those kind of noises but he didn't mean it.

:16:22.:16:25.

Amber Rudd, do you want to answer that? It's absolutely staggering

:16:26.:16:28.

that you think that a Prime Minister who goes around 27 different

:16:29.:16:33.

countries sets out four clear things to achieve, comes back with part of

:16:34.:16:37.

them, not all of them, describes it as a negotiation, has analyse what

:16:38.:16:40.

had it is about the UK voter population that they really don't

:16:41.:16:43.

like and has addressed those specific points. How does it help on

:16:44.:16:53.

borders for example? On sovereignty? It's about sovereignty and ever

:16:54.:16:57.

closer union. Ukip's consistently said everything about our EU

:16:58.:17:00.

agreements nothing will ever come back from closer union and

:17:01.:17:04.

specifically in this statement, from the EU this week, it's actually

:17:05.:17:10.

saying there'll be no more ever closer European Union. I vote in the

:17:11.:17:15.

European Parliament all the time, I vote against it, I watch your MPs

:17:16.:17:19.

vote in favour of it all the time. Can't you admit it's changed. I

:17:20.:17:25.

can't. I'm stunned from Paul's declaration that his party has a

:17:26.:17:34.

hearts. I find it... APPLAUSE

:17:35.:17:35.

Those words come pretty cheap. I would like it if his party could

:17:36.:17:39.

demonstrate that they have a heart by not blaming imgrants who're

:17:40.:17:43.

working in our country for all of our troubles and stop pursuing their

:17:44.:17:48.

divisive, destructive form of politics. Don't say it, demonstrate

:17:49.:17:52.

it. Thank you. And with respect to the lady who said that Ukip are not

:17:53.:17:58.

split, it's very true, Ukip are utterly united on their position in

:17:59.:18:00.

respect of the European Union but they'll not answer the question of

:18:01.:18:04.

what coming out of the European Union will actually mean because I

:18:05.:18:10.

promise you, if it means we have a deal like Norway where it's the

:18:11.:18:15.

tenth largest contributor to the EU budget even though they are not in

:18:16.:18:18.

thep the European Union, they have to implement three quarters of the

:18:19.:18:21.

legislation, all the rules in relation to the internal market and

:18:22.:18:25.

they are within the Schengen borderless zone so they have less

:18:26.:18:28.

control over their borders than we do. If it is a deal like that in

:18:29.:18:32.

order to get access to the single market, then I'm afraid that is a

:18:33.:18:36.

poor deal. I would rather be in the European Union, fighting for better

:18:37.:18:39.

rules for our country and making sure we get the best possible deal.

:18:40.:18:44.

I want to go to Dawn Thornton who asked the question? You have been

:18:45.:18:49.

listening to this, what do you think of what you have hard so far? I

:18:50.:18:53.

mean, I personally would like to stay in the EU. I just hope that

:18:54.:18:58.

when we start doing all the debates, that they butt the pros and cons in

:18:59.:19:02.

layman's terms sothat people can understand it because unless you

:19:03.:19:06.

have studied law or the EU, some people haven't got a clue what the

:19:07.:19:10.

pros and cons are. Listening to our panel...

:19:11.:19:15.

I'm still confused. APPLAUSE

:19:16.:19:18.

Listening to our panel, are they talking in clear layman's language

:19:19.:19:22.

for you about the EU? Yes, some of it they are, but then other stuff

:19:23.:19:26.

that you hear in the media or that you look up, you get more and more

:19:27.:19:32.

confused. So I'm waiting really for the debates to start of the going,

:19:33.:19:36.

staying in or coming out. Let's come back to the audience. I want it to

:19:37.:19:42.

be fair on this, to take it in turns for pro and anti, the question

:19:43.:19:46.

remember, has Cameron done enough to convince the nation to stay in

:19:47.:19:53.

Europe. Let's have a pro-Europe speaker first. Do you want to come

:19:54.:19:58.

in? Yes. Don't you think that, at a time when we have so many

:19:59.:20:02.

international crises abroad, it's so important to show a united Europe

:20:03.:20:06.

and surely all this talk of leaving the EU just shoes how divided we are

:20:07.:20:12.

and that's playing into the hands of people like Putin who want to see us

:20:13.:20:21.

as a weak European country. Can you answer this? The point of whether we

:20:22.:20:25.

should all be working together, I don't think we could be necessarily

:20:26.:20:30.

any less effective on our own as it were and it's not as if we are

:20:31.:20:34.

leaving NATO, we are still going to be working very hard to achieve

:20:35.:20:37.

everything we currently achieve within the union so I don't consider

:20:38.:20:40.

that a particularly powerful argument. On the issue of ever

:20:41.:20:44.

closer union which Amber you brought up and, you know, you acted as if it

:20:45.:20:48.

was a great triumph for David Cameron, I mean I don't know if

:20:49.:20:51.

anyone in the audience really ever thought that we were going to be

:20:52.:20:55.

part of ever closer union. It seems to me that this is a bit like David

:20:56.:20:59.

Cameron saying, my goodness, after a long, long, hard and tough

:21:00.:21:04.

negotiation, I can confirm that today is Thursday and tomorrow is

:21:05.:21:08.

going to be Friday. Nobody really thought we were going to be part of

:21:09.:21:16.

ever closer union. All right. APPLAUSE

:21:17.:21:18.

I completely disagree. If I could answer the lady's point, in terms of

:21:19.:21:21.

security I agree, working together is important, and I think that we

:21:22.:21:26.

are living in a dangerous world with Putin and Daesh and working together

:21:27.:21:30.

is better for the families, for the country, in terms of our prosperity.

:21:31.:21:36.

Should it only be done or can it only be done by membership of the E

:21:37.:21:40.

Snitch It's enhanced our security yes, but working together on the

:21:41.:21:43.

referendum and the terms that David Cameron's working on has shown

:21:44.:21:46.

actually EU members working very well together, wanting to deep the

:21:47.:21:51.

UK in and wanting a fair deal, one that helps the whole of the EU in

:21:52.:21:55.

terms of competitiveness. Can I knock this Norway thing in the head

:21:56.:21:59.

right now, we are not Norway, all right, we are Great Britain, we are

:22:00.:22:02.

the fifth largest economy in the world. We are Europe's biggest

:22:03.:22:07.

market place, OK. And the simple fact of the matter is, you don't

:22:08.:22:11.

have to be a member of the EU to have access to the single market.

:22:12.:22:16.

China did 300 billion euros worth of trade last year with the EU, the US

:22:17.:22:23.

did 250 billion worth of trade last year. They... You are missing the

:22:24.:22:27.

point. Without being in the European Union. They did that without being

:22:28.:22:31.

in the European Union. We can too. You are missing the point. The point

:22:32.:22:35.

about Norway is that it pays in and has to abide by the rules. Of course

:22:36.:22:44.

we are not identical to Norway. If we want to remove ourselves from the

:22:45.:22:50.

union, we have to play by the union's rules and contribute and

:22:51.:22:56.

that's the key problem that not many people... We have a bespoke European

:22:57.:23:05.

deal. We need us more than they need us. We took a speaker, you, in

:23:06.:23:11.

favour of remain, I would like to take somebody in favour of out and

:23:12.:23:17.

then somebody else. You with the beard and the spectacles?

:23:18.:23:23.

Volkswagen, all the rest of them, Skoda and the rest, Mercedes, are

:23:24.:23:28.

you telling me that they'll have to stick to the rules and not sell into

:23:29.:23:32.

this country. A great deal of the parts for all the cars and other

:23:33.:23:36.

industries come from this country, are you now telling me they'll no

:23:37.:23:41.

longer deal with us? Why do you want to leave, you obviously don't want

:23:42.:23:45.

to remain? I never wanted to be in in the first place, we were nefsh

:23:46.:23:50.

given the choice. We were only given the choice to remain within the

:23:51.:23:58.

Common Market. We went in already. We weren't given the choices to go

:23:59.:24:03.

in. My generation, a great deal of us, did not want tos be in. Did you

:24:04.:24:08.

vote in the first referendum? I did. You are old enough? Yes.

:24:09.:24:12.

LAUGHTER Harold Wilson in the document

:24:13.:24:15.

published said, and Wilson said, we are only at the start of our

:24:16.:24:19.

relationship with the European community, so when you say it was

:24:20.:24:26.

only a Common Market, he Didak chillily expect things to change. He

:24:27.:24:36.

didn't give any inkling. Did you vote no? Yes. Had a second chance in

:24:37.:24:42.

a lifetime? Yes and I will vote no again. The woman up there please on

:24:43.:24:47.

the right? I think it's really clear to understand what the alternatives

:24:48.:24:51.

are. The lady on the panel already alluded to this, we don't know what

:24:52.:24:54.

will happen if we do come out. We talk a lot about what happens when

:24:55.:24:58.

we are in the EU, but I'm on the fence, I don't know what the

:24:59.:25:02.

alternatives are and that's what we need to hear more of.

:25:03.:25:06.

APPLAUSE. And what are your worries, either

:25:07.:25:12.

way, about that? What do you fear? We have to abide by the rules, we

:25:13.:25:16.

wouldn't be able to make our own choices, I want to know for me as a

:25:17.:25:22.

citizen of the UK how we'd be affected if we weren't in the EU,

:25:23.:25:27.

there are no answers. It's unknown, we don't know how it will look for

:25:28.:25:31.

us so it's hard to make the choice. You in the third row? I would vote

:25:32.:25:37.

yes to stay in, firstly because you can see in the audience today the

:25:38.:25:41.

diversity and the benefits, particularly living in a city like

:25:42.:25:45.

Bradford, that being part of the European Union brings. That's the

:25:46.:25:51.

first point. The second point is, Ukip is scaremongering people and

:25:52.:25:55.

not providing the clear statistics and I totally agree with Shabana

:25:56.:25:59.

about the greater benefits being part of the European Union.

:26:00.:26:05.

OK. APPLAUSE

:26:06.:26:07.

I think we should move on. I said the debate begins here on Question

:26:08.:26:11.

Time tonight and it will go on week after week after week until we get

:26:12.:26:15.

this referendum. We still don't know when it will be. You wanted it the

:26:16.:26:21.

end of June yourself? If we get agreement, we'll have it at the end

:26:22.:26:26.

of June, we hope. We are not going to be rushed about timing, we ant

:26:27.:26:30.

the best deal we can for the UK -- we want. Next week, we are going to

:26:31.:26:38.

be in Llanelli in Wales. The following week, we are in

:26:39.:26:43.

Stratford-upon-Avon. There's the address to apply. I'll give it again

:26:44.:26:46.

at the end of the programme. Fatima Hussain, please?

:26:47.:26:51.

Why is the government only targeting Muslim women to learn English and

:26:52.:26:55.

not everyone else from every other country?

:26:56.:27:03.

APPLAUSE This refers to David Cameron's

:27:04.:27:08.

pledging ?20 million to teach English to women and saying if you

:27:09.:27:11.

don't improve your fluency that could affect your ability to stay in

:27:12.:27:16.

the UK. And we are in Bradford which has something like a quarter I think

:27:17.:27:22.

Asian origin in the population. Shabana Mahmood, what do you make of

:27:23.:27:27.

that idea of persuading or almost indeed inducing people to learn to

:27:28.:27:30.

speak English? Frankly the Prime Minister's case would have had more

:27:31.:27:34.

force if he was not the Prime Minister that presided over huge

:27:35.:27:41.

cuts to the English for speakers of other languages budget in the first

:27:42.:27:45.

place. He massively cut that budget and now he offers ?20 million and

:27:46.:27:51.

picks Muslim women as the big symbolic group to receive that

:27:52.:27:56.

money. I have to say, few things have angered and frankly upset me

:27:57.:28:00.

more than the article than the Prime Minister wrote in the Times

:28:01.:28:05.

newspaper linking a failure by first generation immigrant Muslim women to

:28:06.:28:10.

be able to speak English or speak English fluently with

:28:11.:28:13.

radicalisation. That was frankly disgraceful.

:28:14.:28:23.

It's not backed up by any evidence and if it was the case that it was

:28:24.:28:29.

leading to radicalisation, frankly Birmingham in the '50s would have

:28:30.:28:33.

been a hot bed of terrorism because so many first generation terrorists

:28:34.:28:38.

came in at that point. It was a ridiculous, dangerous argument

:28:39.:28:41.

because we have this avalanche of negativity coming from all sections

:28:42.:28:45.

around the British Muslim community and the Prime Minister, who is

:28:46.:28:49.

supposed to set the tone of the debate in our country, decides to

:28:50.:28:53.

make this spurious, unfounded link between English language which is

:28:54.:28:58.

incredibly important and which I really support. With that and

:28:59.:29:01.

radicalisation, it's frankly a nonsense and also deeply dangerous.

:29:02.:29:08.

APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? You support the

:29:09.:29:13.

targeting of this money to help the most vulnerable women in this

:29:14.:29:18.

situation? I want funding for English language for all groups

:29:19.:29:20.

because it's so fundamental that everybody in our country can speak

:29:21.:29:24.

English. Of course, in an environment where there's less

:29:25.:29:27.

money, it's about targeting the most vulnerable. If 22% of Muslim women

:29:28.:29:33.

have very poor or no English, incidentally compared 2010% of men,

:29:34.:29:35.

isn't it right to target the money that we have to help them? We can

:29:36.:29:40.

target to help them so that those women are better protected

:29:41.:29:43.

themselves so they can engage at schools with the doctors, they are

:29:44.:29:47.

just much more protected as individual women and it also means

:29:48.:29:52.

they can then play a role in society, get jobs, volunteer, help

:29:53.:29:56.

in society and the business of going to, like most MPs, I have people

:29:57.:30:02.

come to my surgery and sometimes the parents can't speak English, the

:30:03.:30:05.

women particularly can't, and the children help them translate so I

:30:06.:30:10.

think it's absolutely right to target the women that you have

:30:11.:30:13.

who're most vulnerable. And the women particularly in terms of

:30:14.:30:16.

helping people in society, I feel strongly about that. I want to

:30:17.:30:19.

interpose one point. In that article in the Times that you mentioned, the

:30:20.:30:25.

Prime Minister wrote: "If you don't improve your fluency, that could

:30:26.:30:29.

affect your ability to stay in the UK. " What does that mean, they kick

:30:30.:30:31.

people out? We have various pieces of

:30:32.:30:42.

legislation which are enforced. I am not entirely clear what that means.

:30:43.:30:47.

You describe it as an inducement. It is a serious approach to help the

:30:48.:30:52.

most vulnerable. Shabana, people like you should take it more

:30:53.:30:55.

seriously that these people are isolated. You say they are

:30:56.:31:00.

vulnerable and you are going to kick them out of the country. Why is it

:31:01.:31:07.

too much to ask for people who live here really long-term to be able to

:31:08.:31:10.

speaking this? APPLAUSE

:31:11.:31:18.

We are not talking about an obscure language, Swire Healey or something.

:31:19.:31:26.

If you are going to be part of our society, I believe you should be

:31:27.:31:29.

able to communicate and it is to your advantage to be able to

:31:30.:31:34.

communicate. I agree people should be able to speaking Laois and should

:31:35.:31:39.

be supported to do so. If the Prime Minister had not slashed that budget

:31:40.:31:44.

when he came into power, more people would be able to speak English

:31:45.:31:49.

today. He is now trying to ride in as the saviour of Muslims in but it

:31:50.:31:52.

was the link with the radicalisation which was his big a point which was

:31:53.:32:02.

absolutely unjustified. Not only did he cut that budget, but with the

:32:03.:32:06.

various cuts to local government, the number of local community groups

:32:07.:32:11.

that assist people like the Asian ladies, the Muslims in, we have lots

:32:12.:32:18.

of those and also lots of European people coming into this country.

:32:19.:32:22.

They have been badly affected by cuts to local government. I work in

:32:23.:32:27.

local government and I know how badly affected Bradford Council has

:32:28.:32:32.

been. It is ridiculous. Paul Nuttall, what do you make of what

:32:33.:32:40.

Shabana describes as the threat of radicalisation by mothers not

:32:41.:32:46.

speaking English? I don't think it helps. What do you mean, is it true

:32:47.:32:52.

or not? Well, look, if you live in this country, it is to your own

:32:53.:32:57.

benefit to speak the language and to be able to integrate. That is not

:32:58.:33:02.

the question. Address the question. The Prime Minister wrote "Think

:33:03.:33:08.

about the young boy growing up in Bradford, his mum can't speaking

:33:09.:33:10.

wish so he finds it hard to communicate with her. As a teenager

:33:11.:33:14.

he struggled to identify with Western culture. When that happens,

:33:15.:33:19.

the extremist narrative gives them something to believe in, however

:33:20.:33:24.

ridiculous". I think it increases the chances of people being

:33:25.:33:28.

indoctrinated by radicalisation. We need to put a halt to it. 22% of

:33:29.:33:34.

Muslim and do not speaking wish, or speak poor English. If you want to

:33:35.:33:38.

integrate and not be cut off from employment opportunities, cut out of

:33:39.:33:45.

the democratic process... I remember the old and by-election recently,

:33:46.:33:49.

and a Guardian journalist said it was depressing how many people in

:33:50.:33:52.

the Pakistani and Bangladeshi community did not speak English. It

:33:53.:33:58.

is the cost as well to society, the amount spent on translators in the

:33:59.:34:02.

NHS, the police, the public sector. If you want to be part of our

:34:03.:34:07.

society and reap the great benefits of living in Britain, then you

:34:08.:34:10.

should learn the language. Simple as that.

:34:11.:34:10.

APPLAUSE The point is not that we want people

:34:11.:34:22.

to speak English. I think we all agree we want people to be able to

:34:23.:34:26.

communicate. It is just that by targeting Muslim women, he is

:34:27.:34:31.

feeding on stereotypes, breeding hatred. He made a passing comment

:34:32.:34:35.

about Muslim women being traditionally submissive. Tell that

:34:36.:34:40.

to the thousands of women who work, who do amazing things in society. He

:34:41.:34:45.

is just belittling them. APPLAUSE

:34:46.:34:51.

If you were to swap the word target for support, would that make it

:34:52.:34:58.

easier to accept? If we said he wants to support Muslim ladies who

:34:59.:35:02.

can't speaking wish, rather than target them, I think that puts a

:35:03.:35:05.

completely different meaning on it. I think he is wanting to support

:35:06.:35:09.

them. It is not only the language but the culture. He is talking about

:35:10.:35:15.

children who grow up not being able to communicate with parents and

:35:16.:35:19.

grandparents. It is also a mixed culture, where sometimes in Asian

:35:20.:35:23.

communities, you have your elders who are living in an Asian

:35:24.:35:28.

community, and Asian mindset, not really understanding the youngsters

:35:29.:35:38.

who have grown up very Western. The question was really important. She

:35:39.:35:43.

asked, why is it only Muslim Women's Network targeted. There are plenty

:35:44.:35:47.

of other people in this country who arrive and do not have English, men

:35:48.:35:52.

and women. -- Muslim women who are targeted. It is wrong... It's

:35:53.:36:03.

important that everyone has the chance to learn the language. But

:36:04.:36:07.

the real problem with David Cameron's article was the link with

:36:08.:36:12.

radicalisation. And it was real dog whistle politics. And I think it was

:36:13.:36:17.

done utterly cynically, to try and attract some of the Ukip leaning

:36:18.:36:23.

voters who might be sympathetic with it. I say this in the context of a

:36:24.:36:29.

Ukip broadcast yesterday which, placed in front of a minaret in

:36:30.:36:34.

Turkey, was encouraging people to be very suspicious about people from

:36:35.:36:38.

Turkey. I have Turkish friends who were very distressed by what they

:36:39.:36:41.

saw last night and I believe it we go on with this sort of politics the

:36:42.:36:45.

referendum will start to become about parts of our community rather

:36:46.:36:49.

than the benefits of being in Europe. The strength of this country

:36:50.:36:54.

over the last 70 years has been our diverse communities working

:36:55.:36:59.

together, as you do in Bradford. I have certainly seen it in my own

:37:00.:37:04.

community in Watford. Paul Nuttall, explain what this was yesterday. The

:37:05.:37:12.

broadcast last night was focusing on the fact that David Cameron and

:37:13.:37:15.

other political parties in this country eventually want Turkey to

:37:16.:37:20.

join the European Union. Turkey is a country where only 3% of it falls

:37:21.:37:25.

into Europe, has lower living standards than any other country in

:37:26.:37:30.

the European Union. We heard before how you were saying the European

:37:31.:37:33.

Union brings security. You let Turkey in, it has borders with Iraq,

:37:34.:37:38.

Iran and Syria. Will that help security in this country? I think we

:37:39.:37:43.

have a valid point to say no to Turkey joining the European Union.

:37:44.:37:48.

Paul is starting to repeat the myths and errors of that broadcast last

:37:49.:37:55.

night. It is completely relevant. It was made to look like a documentary.

:37:56.:38:00.

It reached guidelines, because if you are copying the style of a

:38:01.:38:03.

programme, you are supposed to make it clear. You did not, and there

:38:04.:38:07.

were plenty of facts that were absolutely wrong as well. Did anyone

:38:08.:38:16.

see that last night? I thought it was very informative. I think you

:38:17.:38:19.

are missing the point that the Americans are increasing armoured

:38:20.:38:24.

vehicles in Europe by 100%, and feet on the ground in Europe, because of

:38:25.:38:28.

the threat of what is coming out of Russia and Eastern Europe. This is a

:38:29.:38:36.

bit of a smoke screen, to me. Amber Rudd, let's just come back to the

:38:37.:38:41.

point about Cameron using this point about language to talk about

:38:42.:38:48.

extremism, conflating the two ideas. Well, I do agree with the article

:38:49.:38:55.

when it says, as read out to me, that if the mother cannot speak to

:38:56.:38:58.

her child then it is going to be difficult for her to communicate the

:38:59.:39:02.

very strong British values that we have got. And I think we have to be

:39:03.:39:06.

careful about not pussyfooting around. With respect... British

:39:07.:39:12.

values are important and something we should not avoid. Sometimes the

:39:13.:39:17.

left is too much about saying we must not interfere with these

:39:18.:39:24.

cultural areas. I am sorry... There was a problem here, which is that

:39:25.:39:33.

Muslim would need language skills. -- Muslims in need language skills.

:39:34.:39:38.

You have repeated the fundamental mistake. If you look at people who

:39:39.:39:42.

have gone to Syria to get involved with IS, they are university

:39:43.:39:46.

graduates. Their mum has nothing to do with it.

:39:47.:39:46.

APPLAUSE The fact that they are university

:39:47.:39:57.

graduates is utterly terrifying. Instead of dealing with the scary

:39:58.:40:01.

fact in our midst, you have gone on to pick on Muslim Women's Network

:40:02.:40:05.

struggle with English. There is no link, you keep making it and it is

:40:06.:40:11.

really divisive and unfair. -- Muslim women who struggle with

:40:12.:40:18.

English. I am a lecturer here in Bradford and what upsets me about

:40:19.:40:21.

this narrative is the presumption that Asian women do not want to

:40:22.:40:26.

integrate. They absolutely do. There are huge waiting lists. Is that

:40:27.:40:35.

Asian women of all ages, over 65? Absolutely. We have loads of

:40:36.:40:40.

students from the younger section but also mothers and grandmothers

:40:41.:40:43.

who want to get out there and learn these skills. And the provision was

:40:44.:40:50.

taken away from them. Do you welcome the government proposal to spend 20

:40:51.:40:54.

million? Of course, and the women want it, too. But not targeted only

:40:55.:41:00.

at them because they are muslin women. Everybody should be supported

:41:01.:41:08.

to speak English, but targeting in this way was deeply wrong. A

:41:09.:41:18.

question from Richard Frost. Does politics need controversial

:41:19.:41:22.

characters like Donald Trump from time to time to revitalise interest

:41:23.:41:30.

from voters? What do you think? I think the danger is when those

:41:31.:41:32.

idiots get elected. APPLAUSE

:41:33.:41:42.

Paul Nuttall. Well... Maybe you should ask that next week. OK,

:41:43.:41:56.

Donald Trump. I think people like Donald Trump are the result of bland

:41:57.:42:02.

politicians, who never give a straight answer to a straight

:42:03.:42:11.

question, which is true. Come on. They avoid speaking what they

:42:12.:42:17.

consider to be the truth. Before, when we were talking about

:42:18.:42:20.

Conservative Cabinet member 's and politicians who want to leave the

:42:21.:42:23.

European Union but do not have the bottle to come out and put their

:42:24.:42:30.

country above their own political career. So -- who is going to be our

:42:31.:42:36.

Donald Trump in Europe? We have not got one at the moment but the rise

:42:37.:42:40.

of Donald Trump is the result of bland politicians in America. We

:42:41.:42:44.

might end up with a Donald Trump over here, but the problem is when

:42:45.:42:47.

people like Donald Trump get elected. Does it scare me if he

:42:48.:42:52.

becomes American president? It probably would. The journalist in me

:42:53.:42:57.

would always want, -- colourful politicians. I remember the Monster

:42:58.:43:04.

Raving Loony Party. Sadly that died out. I think there is a problem with

:43:05.:43:10.

politics being too grey, too boring, men in suits. Colourful characters

:43:11.:43:14.

like Trump, whether you agree with him or not, enliven a debate. He

:43:15.:43:20.

will spark a debate. You saw what happened when he came out with his

:43:21.:43:24.

crazy comments about not letting any Muslims into America. We have an

:43:25.:43:28.

extraordinary lively debate about that here in the UK. Yes, I would

:43:29.:43:34.

probably be a bit alarmed if he became president, but he says things

:43:35.:43:39.

others do not dare to. I was looking before coming on the programme today

:43:40.:43:43.

about what else he has said and I disagreed with most of it. But, for

:43:44.:43:48.

example, he says we should have Merry Christmas in American stores

:43:49.:43:53.

at Christmas time, rather than happy holidays. That is a great point and

:43:54.:43:56.

others will not come out with it. Good for him, I say. The politics

:43:57.:44:02.

around this table has not been grey tonight. Because there are lots of

:44:03.:44:10.

ladies. I think we need these controversial characters. The

:44:11.:44:15.

Conservatives always say it is Labour's fault. Labour always blame

:44:16.:44:19.

the Conservatives. We need these people to spice up politics and make

:44:20.:44:24.

it a bit more exciting, rather than just playing the blame game all the

:44:25.:44:32.

time, which is all you ever do. Donald Trump keeps repeating that he

:44:33.:44:36.

is not a politician and that is what makes him different. He is a

:44:37.:44:40.

politician, and you should never trust a politician who says he is

:44:41.:44:49.

not a politician. I am afraid I cannot be quite so excited about

:44:50.:44:54.

Donald Trump and talk about how he is in live in debate and making it

:44:55.:45:00.

all very interesting. Most of his rhetoric around Muslims is frankly

:45:01.:45:05.

terrifying. I am a practising British Muslim, so when I hear him,

:45:06.:45:09.

I don't think, this is an interesting debate and I'm excited

:45:10.:45:13.

to listen to it. I just think, that is scary and I hope nobody in our

:45:14.:45:17.

country things like that, because it would be bad for Britain's Muslims.

:45:18.:45:21.

I cannot take a bland approach, like others.

:45:22.:45:29.

Isabel, Donald Trump when he says some hateful speech, he's a

:45:30.:45:34.

colourful character and if the same speech was delivered by a Muslim

:45:35.:45:39.

cleric or someone like that, he'd be a terrorist. Amber Rudd?

:45:40.:45:45.

APPLAUSE You get these double standards. He's

:45:46.:45:49.

allowed to get away with things? Yes. I would like to dump the Trump,

:45:50.:45:54.

you know. APPLAUSE That is exact hi the sort

:45:55.:46:00.

of phrase he might think up, isn't it. He refers to himself always as

:46:01.:46:08.

the Donald or the Trump. So actually American politics at the moment is

:46:09.:46:11.

fascinating and there's quite a lot of interesting characters out there

:46:12.:46:14.

so I don't think he's going to continue to dominate the headlines,

:46:15.:46:18.

I certainly hope some of the others will get a fair shot soon. I want to

:46:19.:46:22.

hear from Bradford again. A question from Kerry Noble, please? Has the

:46:23.:46:26.

northern powerhouse run out of steam? Has the northern powerhouse,

:46:27.:46:32.

George Osborne's phrase, as Chancellor of the Exchequer, we need

:46:33.:46:37.

a new northern powerhouse, has this run out of steam, in other words how

:46:38.:46:40.

are things going on in Bradford. What do you think, by the way? I

:46:41.:46:46.

don't think it ever got started, never mind run out of steam. I see.

:46:47.:46:52.

APPLAUSE Amber Rudd? The point about the

:46:53.:46:57.

northern powerhouse was to make sure that the expansion in the economy,

:46:58.:47:00.

the new jobs, businesses, didn't just happen in the south-east or

:47:01.:47:03.

London and, George Osborne set out very specifically to make sure that

:47:04.:47:08.

the growth in the country did reach all parts and was particularly

:47:09.:47:11.

reaching the northern powerhouse. The bit that I was particularly

:47:12.:47:15.

pleased by and impressed by was the effort on road and rail and on rail

:47:16.:47:25.

we have seen... Electrification in rail, we have

:47:26.:47:29.

seen that, which is very expensive. Manchester and Liverpool.

:47:30.:47:38.

HECKLING... Are you feeling you're part of the

:47:39.:47:42.

northern powerhouse in Bradford? You in the checked shirt? Well, I come

:47:43.:47:48.

from Essex, for starters. Oh, great! My only comment is that we are

:47:49.:47:52.

talking about high-speed trains... You have come all the way from Essex

:47:53.:47:57.

to appear on Question Time? It's a long story, I won't go into it. We

:47:58.:48:01.

were talking about high speed trains, the only thing I can think

:48:02.:48:09.

of is national media museums and a large number of the artefacts are

:48:10.:48:12.

moving down to London, so... Yes. That is a local issue. 400,000

:48:13.:48:19.

photographic archive which has been here in Bradford for years, it was

:48:20.:48:22.

announced yesterday that it will go to the V A. Leaving that for the

:48:23.:48:37.

moment, what do you think Shabana? I was just wondering when Amber was

:48:38.:48:41.

saying how pleased she is with progress in relation to the northern

:48:42.:48:44.

powerhouse, whether she's equally pleased that one of the Sheffield

:48:45.:48:48.

offices for the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills has

:48:49.:48:52.

now shut down, its job was to deliver the powerhouse and the jobs

:48:53.:48:55.

have been shifted back to London. That doesn't seem like a northern

:48:56.:49:07.

powerhouse raging forward and delivering mean meaningful

:49:08.:49:10.

devolution. When you heard the intention announced, did you believe

:49:11.:49:13.

it or did you think it was purely a propaganda statement? I think it's

:49:14.:49:19.

entirely part of George Osborne's plan to try to get his way into

:49:20.:49:23.

Downing Street. But hang on, if he says he's going to have a northern

:49:24.:49:26.

powerhouse, everybody here in Bradford will expect to feel the

:49:27.:49:30.

effect of that and if they don't they'll blame him, you can't just do

:49:31.:49:35.

it by smoke and mirrors, can you? Well that, to be fair, is George

:49:36.:49:40.

Osborne's modus operandi when it comes to the economy more generally.

:49:41.:49:44.

I think that the northern powerhouse concept was important for him as

:49:45.:49:48.

part of his own political story, for his road to Number Ten, I think he

:49:49.:49:52.

wanted to show he cared about the north. He does. And the truth is

:49:53.:49:56.

that, if you really want to have proper devolution in our country

:49:57.:50:00.

where cities and regions can come together and go forward with their

:50:01.:50:03.

own story on economic competitiveness, you have to do that

:50:04.:50:07.

in a comprehensive way, not just the piecemeal approach. He's gone for

:50:08.:50:12.

the northern powerhouse, we may have a Midlands engine, it's too bitty

:50:13.:50:18.

and piecemeal. Sal Brinton? The infrastructure proposals are really

:50:19.:50:20.

important to the powerhouse because the point about it is that it joins

:50:21.:50:24.

up some of the centres of excellence in the north. The coalition

:50:25.:50:27.

Government agreed this would happen. The moment the Conservatives were

:50:28.:50:30.

back in power, they threw the infrastructure into the long grass.

:50:31.:50:34.

So one of the key building blocks that's going to make it happen has

:50:35.:50:39.

if not gone, certainly been delayed for a really long time. It's

:50:40.:50:43.

incredibly important that we capture what is going on well. Today in the

:50:44.:50:48.

local paper it's talking about a new super targeted cancer drug which was

:50:49.:50:51.

invented here in Bradford, it's moving on for development. For a

:50:52.:50:55.

northern powerhouse, we shouldn't just be talking about invention, but

:50:56.:50:59.

developing manufacturer here to create jobs, we should be talking

:51:00.:51:03.

about making sure the academic expertise that's doing that is

:51:04.:51:06.

plugged into the other universities, not just in the north but elsewhere

:51:07.:51:12.

as well. My problem is, with the Government saying it's removing its

:51:13.:51:15.

support in making the important links, it's just going to slowly

:51:16.:51:19.

fade away. You, Sir, in the second row? I live

:51:20.:51:25.

in Leeds just a few miles away and I think my concern, having lived in

:51:26.:51:29.

the city for about ten years, is that the economic growth and things

:51:30.:51:33.

that we see in the city appears unsustainable. It's very

:51:34.:51:37.

retail-based, very building-based. What I want to know is what are we

:51:38.:51:41.

going to do about bringing the greatness back to the north which is

:51:42.:51:45.

industry, which is, you know, developing local talent and keeping

:51:46.:51:50.

it local? Do you feel there is any sign of that happening? At the

:51:51.:51:56.

minute, like I say, from my perspective in Leeds, it's

:51:57.:52:01.

retail-based and if that's not sustainable in the current economic

:52:02.:52:06.

climate... I've no doubt the northern powerhouse was and is an

:52:07.:52:10.

economic aspiration. But it's also and in and was an electioneering

:52:11.:52:14.

device. I mean, the Tories in reality have long had a massive

:52:15.:52:19.

problem with their support base beyond London and the Home Counties.

:52:20.:52:23.

So the northern powerhouse was without doubt a device to boost

:52:24.:52:28.

support in those areas where the infrastructure projects were

:52:29.:52:31.

targeted. I think what we, as journalists have to do, is ensure

:52:32.:52:35.

that there isn't slippage of all those projects that were announced

:52:36.:52:38.

now that Cameron is home and dry with a little majority that he has.

:52:39.:52:47.

You, in the spectacles? I think the northern powerhouse is kind of

:52:48.:52:52.

summing up the Tory Government strategy of saying anything to your

:52:53.:52:57.

face and doing something completely different while you're not looking.

:52:58.:53:03.

It's a distraction tactic. They'll say anything and they'll contradict

:53:04.:53:07.

themselves tomorrow. David Cameron will talk about defending

:53:08.:53:10.

sovereignty while passing contentious legislation through back

:53:11.:53:13.

door committees, he's not defending sovereignty of Parliament at all,

:53:14.:53:17.

he's saying anything to your face. Are you a Bradford man? I'm from

:53:18.:53:24.

Sheffield. Do you sense any change in the last five years? No, it's not

:53:25.:53:31.

genuine. It's just buzz words and jingoism. And nothing is happening?

:53:32.:53:36.

That's not happening. It's simply not true. There is growth, the

:53:37.:53:40.

economy is growing, unemployment is falling, investment is rising, we

:53:41.:53:45.

have big projects going on. Unemployment is falling because of

:53:46.:53:48.

zero hour contracts and part-time work. People might have a job but it

:53:49.:53:52.

doesn't pay enough, it's not enough hours, you are talking about cutting

:53:53.:53:56.

in-work benefits as well which was promise nod to be cut. You talk

:53:57.:54:08.

about getting the votes, you say you will do it and it's not happening.

:54:09.:54:14.

I'm a model railway fan and I'm currently building a model wailway

:54:15.:54:18.

that contains a steelworks. It's now the only steelworks in the

:54:19.:54:22.

north-east that works! LAUGHTER

:54:23.:54:32.

APPLAUSE You will find yourself undercut by

:54:33.:54:35.

Chinese! The woman at the back then back to

:54:36.:54:39.

you, Paul? Cameron doesn't care about the north, that's why

:54:40.:54:46.

Sheffield steel is allowed to go to the wall and why bankers get to keep

:54:47.:54:49.

their jobs. Paul Nuttall? I'll be honest and

:54:50.:54:55.

I've said this on many occasions, I'm fed up with how London dominates

:54:56.:54:58.

the political and economical life of this country. The northern

:54:59.:55:02.

powerhouse is just a piece of political spin, never mind running

:55:03.:55:07.

out of steam. In London, they get around ?5,000 spent on them on

:55:08.:55:11.

infrastructure, in the north-east it's ?200, not much more here in

:55:12.:55:16.

Yorkshire, it's not good enough and I will throw this example out, they

:55:17.:55:21.

are arguing about a third runway for Heathrow or extending Gatwick, why

:55:22.:55:25.

don't we extend Leeds Bradford, bring the trade up here? !

:55:26.:55:31.

APPLAUSE APPLAUSE

:55:32.:55:39.

You, Sir? You mentioned earlier on the panel

:55:40.:55:42.

that it was a political move, I totally agree with that, you also

:55:43.:55:46.

earlier asked is there any change in Bradford. I'm from Bradford and it's

:55:47.:55:50.

only recently after ten years we've got a shopping centre in Bradford,

:55:51.:55:54.

never mind the powerhouse, so I think there's got to be real

:55:55.:55:58.

investment brought to Bradford. The woman second row from the back, do

:55:59.:56:02.

you feel the northern powerhouse means something? Absolutely not. I'm

:56:03.:56:07.

in a strange position of agreeing with Isabel Oakeshott in that it was

:56:08.:56:11.

aer clearly a device to get votes in the north before the election, a

:56:12.:56:15.

cynical device so as soon as the election was over, actually we have

:56:16.:56:18.

seen absolutely nothing here. If anything you see the opposite, big

:56:19.:56:21.

austerity cuts to the county, cultural things moving to London,

:56:22.:56:24.

jobs moving to London from Sheffield. It's pretty much an

:56:25.:56:30.

insult to people here, they have to pull themselves up by the boots, we

:56:31.:56:35.

have a good heritage and good economic possibilities, and we have

:56:36.:56:39.

things taken away. APPLAUSE I would say perhaps to the

:56:40.:56:47.

local authority grants because we had to cut the deficit and we were

:56:48.:56:51.

elected on the basis of reducing the deficit and cuts. Nobody likes cuts

:56:52.:56:55.

but that has to happen. In terms of investment in other areas, we have

:56:56.:57:02.

been encouraging new manufacturing, we have new announcements, opening

:57:03.:57:06.

new offshore wind with increasing jobs, we have been investing in my

:57:07.:57:09.

sector to get nuclear going, in Sheffield we have a project on small

:57:10.:57:14.

modular reactors moving forward, so there are projects moving forward,

:57:15.:57:18.

particularly in the private sector which is exactly what the northern

:57:19.:57:23.

powerhouse is trying to deliver. Sal talked about infrastructure, we have

:57:24.:57:26.

set up the national infrastructure commission to look at long-term...

:57:27.:57:31.

Long grass, long grass. Dear, oh, dear. The idea is to make sure it's

:57:32.:57:41.

cross party and gets continued and doesn't have the cynical response.

:57:42.:57:44.

Invest in the north! OK. We have to stop. Our time is up

:57:45.:57:51.

here in Bradford. We are in Llanelli next week, in Wales, the comedian

:57:52.:58:05.

Romesh Ranganathan. To join the audience in Llanelli, or

:58:06.:58:10.

extraordinaried for upon Avon the week after, get if touch, the

:58:11.:58:14.

details are on the screen. Our debate continues on Question Time

:58:15.:58:20.

extra time. Thank you to the panel, the audience and Question Time,

:58:21.:58:23.

until next Thursday, good night.

:58:24.:58:26.

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Bradford. On the panel: Conservative energy secretary Amber Rudd MP, Labour's former shadow chief secretary to the treasury Shabana Mahmood MP, deputy leader of Ukip Paul Nuttall MEP, president of the Liberal Democrats Baroness Brinton and the Daily Mail's soon to be political editor-at-large Isabel Oakeshott.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS