11/02/2016 Question Time

Tonight we are in Llanelli in west Wales and this is Question Time.

As every week, a big welcome to you if you are watching on TV, listening

on radio five, a big welcome to you in our audience and of course our

panel. It might, the Conservative Secretary of State for Wales,

Stephen Crabb. Labour's First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones. The

lead of Ukip, Nigel Farage. The lead of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the

medium, Romesh Ranganathan. -- and the comedian. Thanks very much. I am

sure you don't need reminding but, if you want to get stuck into the

debate, we have all sorts of ways you can do it, and Facebook,

Twitter, you can follow us at BBC Question Time, you can text us

comments if you prefer. If you push the red button, you will see other

peoples comments and maybe yours along the bottom of the screen.

Alice had first question. Who is wrong, 53,000 junior doctors or

Jeremy Hunt? Nigel Farage. I think the object of the government was to

address a problem and the problem was that more people were dying on

Saturdays and Sundays. One of the reasons for that was the imposition

of the working Time directive, which the NHS found very difficult to

adjust to. The government's objectives in making sure that in

England, and we are in Wales where the situation is different, but the

government objective is to try to get the NHS is safe and brilliant as

it is seven days a week is clearly the right one. However, whether they

have gone about it the right way is another question. When I first heard

about this, you think of 23-year-olds after their degree and

I thought, OK, if they have to work hard and they are poorly paid for a

couple of years, they don't quite quickly to well-paid jobs. Actually,

a junior doctor is anybody below the level of a consultant, so somebody

could be 45 with a family and facing such a drastic cut to their overtime

pay that actually they wouldn't be very well paid at all. So the

government is right to try and get seven days a week health care, but I

think they have gone about it in an insensitive manner. Romesh

Ranganathan. With regards to Jeremy Hunt, considering he is working with

doctors, his bedside manner has been appalling.

APPLAUSE I don't think there is any debate

that the issues needed to be addressed, but the way he has

handled this, if you are talking about doctors' morale, what he has

done has been, I think, unacceptable. What has happened is

offers have been made to junior doctors, they have rejected it and

it has been enforced on them, and he has made comments that they need to

think more carefully about going on strike. They haven't entered into

those decisions lightly. Nobody is striking on a whim. It hasn't

happened a long time. They have done it because they feel seriously about

the situation, and the long-term effects on who is going to go into

medicine will be felt by the fact it is involved in this contract. It is

not right. We are now in a weird situation where doctors have a

different contract in England to different countries in the UK. David

Cameron made comments about the Welsh NHS and, ironically, we will

probably have a few English doctors coming here to take up the better

contracts. APPLAUSE

Stephen Crabb. I think the government and the doctors want

exactly the same thing out of the new contract. They want a contract

which gives dignity to the junior doctors, who shoulder an enormous

burden in delivering high quality care in the NHS seven days a week,

but we need to try and extend the uniform excellence not just Monday

to Friday but Saturdays and Sundays, to address the weekend effect. When

the NHS was founded, Bevan had the concept of the universalisation of

the best, so it shouldn't just be sporadic, it should be evenly spread

across the NHS. In addressing the weekend effect, so that Saturday and

Sunday, equally high care is being given as with Monday to Friday, that

is the right thing to do. But the current contract, everybody agrees,

is not fit for purpose. You see junior doctors working up to 91

hours, continuously, during the week, leading to a lots of stress on

junior doctors. There are good reasons for addressing the current

contract. Just because the Welsh government isn't having this tussle

at the moment with the junior doctors and the BMA trade union

doesn't mean that the same issues won't have to be phased out on in

future in Wales and Scotland. We have taken the decision as a

government to address the seven-day issue to ensure we get better

outcomes. Romesh Ranganathan said it hasn't been well handled by the

Secretary of State. Has it been? If you look at the shifts the

government had made in terms of concessions to doctors, and the

contract that will be introduced now, 90% of that has already been

agreed in negotiations, so there is a lot in the contract that junior

doctors will welcome. The sticking point we got two was around estate

away that improve the status of Saturday, would it be a normal

working day or unsociable hours. If you are that close, why not get it

to a point where the doctors are happy? There is something else going

on. Having said what I said, where I think there has been some

intransigence is on the part of the BMA. If you look at the history of

the NHS, every reforming Secretary of State for Health, be it Labour or

Conservative, going right back to the days of Bevan, at some point or

other, they come up against the intransigence of the BMA. That is

their history. When junior doctors are on strike, it is a sign of

abject failure. APPLAUSE

We haven't always agreed with the BMA. There have been times we have

disagreed with each other, but there has never been a situation where

doctors felt they had to go on strike, that they had to stand

outside hospitals with placards saying save the NHS, and now there

is talk of consultants doing the same. If you look at what has

happened in Wales, we can see there fewer people in Wales stuck in

hospital, waiting to go home, the opposite of England. We spend more

on health per head in Wales. Waiting times are going up in England. ?3

billion was a little weight on reorganisation in England, but not

in Wales. -- was hosed away. We want people to have the right access to

health services, which means making sure morale is high. Morale is

dropping in England. I have no compunction in saying to junior

doctors, come to Wales, you will be treated with respect. Because your

cancer care provisions are so poor, you have got 50,000 Welsh patience

who go to England. On every measure in the United Kingdom... Just wait,

will you, please? If to what you speak at once, nobody here at home

can hear a word of what you are saying. It is pointless. Take

Nigel's intervention and then you can comment. 50,000 people from

Wales went to England to get health care last year. I know you are

embarrassed about it, and it is awkward for you, but the truth is...

It is untrue. You won't listen because you have a lot to hide. On

every measure of waiting times and health care provision, Wales is the

failing part of the NHS in the UK. That is complete and utter nonsense.

Briefly. We do better on cancer, they're not 50,000 people going to

England for cancer care, you made that figure up. Unless you can tell

us what it is wrong, you made up. You couldn't name a German

Chancellor the other week. You make this up as you go along. It was 4%.

You couldn't name the Chancellor. Let's leave this local dispute. The

woman in spectacles, I will come to you in a moment. I want to address

something to Nigel Farage. I received cancer care at Prince

Philip hospital in Llanelli last year. The treatment was second to

none. I had a referral from my GP to the unit that I was being treated at

and I was seen within ten days. I am going back for a scan on Monday and

I have actually heard now that statistics for referrals for urgent

cancer care, these statistics which have just come out, those referral

times are going down, which is something I think we should be

celebrating here in Wales. Nigel, please, I want to bring us back to

the original question, which is, who is wrong, 53,000 junior doctors or

Jeremy Hunt? I agree with the junior doctors and I think Jeremy Hunt is

wrong. Are you against a seven-day NHS? Doctors work seven days now.

Saturdays and Sundays, equal outcome? When your guidance suggests

they are being lazy at the weekend... That is the impression

you were kidding. There protesters outside Welsh hospitals because of

Labour's centralisation plans as well. While we need extra doctors in

Wales, and this is an opportunity to get them, because in Wales we have

fewer doctors per head of the population than all but three

European Union countries, so we need to do a lot more in terms of

planning for doctors, and Plaid Cymru's proposals for 1000 extra

doctors in the Welsh NHS has been rubbished by the First Minister on

the basis that he is pretty much in denial that we don't have enough

staff in hospitals. The Royal college of medicine recently warned

that Wales's A departments are on the edge due to increasing demand

and staff shortages. I welcome the First Minister saying he has a plan

to try and recruit extra doctors who have been on strike in England, and

I'm glad he has come round to Plaid Cymru's way of thinking. Let's hear

from the audience. Yes. On the doctors. I qualified in medicine in

1976 and you are quite right to point out that there have been a

number of difficulties with Secretary of States since that time

over the last 40 years. None have got such a lack of respect as the

current Secretary of State, Mr Hundt. -- Mr Hunt. He has at best

been disingenuous because, as Mr Farage pointed out, there is

increased mortality at weekends, but there is nothing that has been

suggested or proven to show that that is related to any lack of

junior doctors at that time. It is multifactorial. They work hard seven

days a week and, by imposing this contract on them, that will, I hope,

help the serious recruitment problem we have in Wales. We are focusing on

doctors tonight but they will not be working on their own. What comes

next for new contracts, nurses, cleaners, porters? It seems we are

starting with the doctors, what happens next? ... What do you think?

With regards to nurses' contracts, they will have to be looked at and

everybody's will have to be looked at. We are talking about junior

doctors now but this will go all the way down. The thin end of the wedge,

in other words? It is true that there are other roles performed in

hospitals. If we generally to move to this... Forgive me, but nobody is

saying junior doctors are not working really hard at the weekend.

Of course they are, shouldering a huge burden alongside nurses in

keeping the NHS in business at the weekend, but it is about addressing

what has become known as weekend effect to ensure an even quality of

excellence from Monday all the way to Sunday, seven days a week. There

will be other roles in the NHS that need to be looked at. The decision

that needs to be taken by the Welsh and Scottish Government and the

administration in Northern Ireland is whether they will embrace this

challenge or run away from it because it is too difficult.

Everybody would love a negotiated outcome. That is what we tried to

get, but that wasn't possible, and so we are going to have to move

ahead with this new contract. If you are not saying it is junior

doctors who cause the weekend effect, why is it that in direct

response to dealing with the weekend effect, you are changing the

contracts for junior doctors? You are contradicting yourself. That is

exactly what you have done. The existing contract prevents the

changes to rostering that would be necessary to address the problem of

the weekend effect. The point I also made earlier was that, pushing to

decide the issue of the seven-day NHS, the current contract is not fit

for purpose. The BMA have agreed that, junior doctors know it is not

fit for purpose and leads to doctors being overworked, which puts patient

service at risk. Going back to Leanne Acra's point, she made a

point about the amount of nurses employed in Wales. Yesterday, we saw

Kirsty Williams, the Welsh Lib Dem leader, her bill on more nurses was

passed, which would require minimum staffing levels for nurses on NHS

wards in Wales. Does that not show the failure of the Labour government

in Wales in funding, giving us a good NHS? What is your view of this

seven-day working thing, Carwyn Jones? I have not noticed my local

hospital closing its doors on Friday and opening on Monday. We know

hospitals work seven days a week. Stephen is saying that his

government, the government he is a member of, negotiates with people,

and if there is no agreement, they impose settlement anyway. That is

not negotiation and that is not the way we will do things in Wales.

Scotland and Northern Ireland will also take the same approach. We want

to work with doctors, not impose terms on them. We can see the chaos

being created in the NHS. We have more doctors in Wales than ever,

more nurses than ever. That does not mean there are no challengers. We

know for example in A demand goes up 7% every year, and meeting that

can be difficult. But we spend more per head on health in Wales than in

England. We have fewer doctors per head of population than warmest

every country in the EU, except for three. I don't accept that at all,

because we have more doctors than ever before. It is a fact. We have

world leading centres, such as a burns unit in Swansea. They are

world leaders. Of course we want to attract people to Wales who Ahmed

qui qualified, but we will not do it on the basis of saying to our

medical profession, you come into Wales, we will talk to you but we

will never listen. Tell me how many countries in the EU have more

doctors per head of population than Wales? Romania, Poland and Slovenia

have fewer doctors per head of population than we do in Wales. You

have just told me that is not the case. Stephen Crabb, you are

Secretary of State for Wales. You know the facts and figures. Is she

right or wrong? It might sound like I am ducking the question but health

is fully devolved. I am not familiar with those statistics. You are

Secretary of State for Wales, surely you follow what is going on here.

APPLAUSE Carwyn Jones might not have the BMA

knocking on his door having an argument about delivering health

services, but hardly a month goes by without protests outside the

assembly buildings by patients and families who are sick and tired of

the reorganisation of A, maternity services, paediatrics. There are

plenty of problems. A point from you, and then you. Is it not

glaringly obvious that at the turn of the molinia made previous

government car crashed GP services and as a consequence people are

turning up in A, increasing the onus on the hospital service. And

another factor that seems glaringly obvious, you

another factor that seems glaringly paid a fortune. Why not put

another factor that seems glaringly doctors into the salaries, thereby

funding doctors into the salaries, thereby

not the backwards way round? OK, and you, sir. Spreading the workforce

more thinly is not the solution. The problem is recruitment and

retention. We have a ?3.3 billion spent on low, and agency staff last

year in the NHS, and that speaks volumes.

Is it all the Conservatives want to do, balance the deaths throughout

the week, instead of just on the weekend?

APPLAUSE And on that happy note... I think we

will go on another question. I should just say, if you want to come

to Question Time, next week we will be in Stratford-upon-Avon, and the

week after that in Poole in Dorset. You can apply on the website, or you

can phone. Now, a question from Sally McDonald. We bailed out the

bankers. Why not bail out our steel industry?

APPLAUSE Leanne Wood, are you a baler? I

think the steel industry is as important to Wales as the banking

industry was to the whole of the UK. And I think both governments on both

ends of the motorway should be doing everything possible to look at

finding a solution to protect the jobs and industry. It is hugely

important to Wales. 18,000 jobs are in the steel industry in this

country. It is ?3.2 billion of value to our economy. Once those jobs are

lost in manufacturing industry from the area of Wales that I come from,

we lost the mining industry and we are still paying the price for that

today. Plaid Cymru has put forward a proposal for the Welsh government to

continue to consider taking a public stake in the steel industry, to get

over what we hope is a temporary situation. And then we can make sure

those jobs are secure. Do you mean nationalisation it for a bit?

Nationalise it, not for long? However long it would need. What do

you do with the steel that is produced, with Chinese steel being

so cheap? There are infrastructure projects in the pipeline for Wales.

We have an extension of the Mfor-macro that is planned. There

are rail projects in the pipeline. All of these will acquire steel. It

is inconceivable that the industry would be put at risk. Then we would

have to buy steel from elsewhere when we have reproduced here with

the jobs that are reliant upon it. What is happening with the steel

industry in Wales is hugely concerning for workers and families.

It is a time of stress and uncertainty. That is true for every

country on earth where steel is being produced right now. There is a

global storm that has turned global steel markets upside down. Leanne

Wood is quite right, for Wales, steel is not just iconic Liam

Porter, but economically important. Particularly here in south Wales.

The idea of nationalisation sounds appealing on the surface if we

really believed government had the answer, if there was a civil servant

or a politician that had the answer to bring back profitability to the

Welsh steel industry. The truth is there have been times when the steel

industry has been nationalised and that has not stopped job cuts. So do

nothing? That is not what is happening, and you know that. Sally

up in the corner said, you bailed out the bankers, why not the steel

industry? The bankers, you are gradually selling them back. They'll

out the steel industry for the short term. The point is... Persuade her.

Is taxpayers money being used to support steel industry and steel

jobs elsewhere in the UK? Absolutely. The UK Government is

spending tens of millions of your money to help relieve energy costs,

to support the steel industry in different ways. Government is not

going to bring back profitability to the steel industry and people in the

industry know that. It is about working with the industry to help

create a level playing field, to protect against the dumping of cheap

Chinese steel, to help the steel industry modernise and return to

profitability. That is the only way to get sustainable steel jobs in

Wales. You cannot say you want to protect Welsh steel from Chinese

dumping when at the same time there are people from your government

trying to make sure that tariffs are not imposed on Chinese steel. The US

imposes a 200 and sick stiff 5% import tariffs on Chinese steel to

the United states. -- 264% import tariff on Chinese steel. You got a

round of applause by saying something that is completely untrue.

UK Government ministers have been in Europe arguing for tariffs on

imported Chinese steel, tariffs on other steel products coming in. You

are completely wrong. At the same time you are lobbying for Watt

Carwyn Jones, what can the Welsh government do? First of all, our

plans are not antiquated. They have had investment. Getting through this

difficult time is the important thing. First of all, tariffs, Leanne

Wood is correct, the Tories have opposed the imposition of tariffs at

a European level. Nigel will tell you that it is a problem in London,

not in Brussels. It means we should protect European steel. There are

two other issues. First, the strength of the pound, exports are

being hit because of it. And energy prices. The pound is falling on the

exchanges. What are you talking about? Oh, dear! If you talk to

people in the steel industry, you might learn something. Energy costs

are far too high in the UK. Other countries have far more renewables

than us but energy costs are lower. It is right to say that the UK

Government has recognised that and said we will do something about it,

but nothing has happened yet. That is the problem. We have put forward

a package of 50 million to help the steel industry. On its own, that

will not be enough. We need to make sure we get support from the UK

Government, and we need progress on those infrastructure projects. It

means HS2, electrification, we have no date for electrification to

Swansea. All of these things can create a market for Welsh steel. And

the government can insist on using British steel for that? You cannot

be that blunt but you can specify through the procurement process that

you use steel of a specific quality. That is how other countries do it.

So you write the specification so that it can only be provided by

Wales or the Northeast? Other countries do it, it is time we got

smarter. As a steel worker facing redundancy, I would like to ask

Steven, I felt completely betrayed this week when the government

opposed the increase in tariff for cheap imported steel. I want to know

when the government is going to start talking the talk and walk the

walk and support British industry and British jobs.

APPLAUSE The UK Government has voted for and

supported and called for tariffs against cheap Chinese steel. The

vote you are referring to was an effort by other countries in Europe

which was blocked by a range of other countries in Europe, not just

to address the underpricing and undercutting by Chinese steel but to

put barriers above that which would have a negative impact on wider

industry in the UK, destroying jobs in the wider economy. That

industry in the UK, destroying jobs European countries. Once the British

steel industry has gone, we have to buy it from overseas. What will

happen when the economy picks up? The thing is, I have read the same

things as you. I was disappointed as well because the government have

been making noises about supporting British steel and it feels like what

they are saying is a lie. What they are doing is in direct contradiction

of that because they blocked the tariffs. The European Commission

wanted to make British steel more competitive and it was blocked by

us. What is going on? I take your argument that there are other

industries that are dependent on that, but then you just have to

admit. Don't say you are going to support British steel when you are

not going to. support British steel when you are

Sally, you asked the question, why APPLAUSE

Sally, you asked the question, why is

for supporting the steel industry? And the answer is, because it can't,

because it is important. It has And the answer is, because it can't,

given away the power. I worked And the answer is, because it can't,

this industry for 20 years And the answer is, because it can't,

getting into politics. That is the difference, I worked in

getting into politics. That is the understand the subject. You thought

the pound was going up when it is going through the floor, so give me

a break, please! Will you listen to the facts?

Sterling is... If you don't get it, goodness knows how Wales gets you as

First Minister. I really do not know. Answer the question. You in

the pink shirt. What we have heard from this panel tonight is pitiful,

because none of the politicians on this platform have the courage to

tell you that, because the Chinese have had a downturn in their economy

and they are dumping hundreds of thousands of tonnes of steel at a

loss, just to get some foreign exchange in, and what we should be

saying is, this isn't fair play. Leanne Wood mention the Americans.

America is a sovereign country. When it needs to, it looks after American

workers and American industry. As members of the EU, we are impotent

and we can't do it and we must vote to get out.

APPLAUSE That is all well and good, but the

tariffs this person is referring to came from the European Commission,

not blocked by us. We are not allowed in this country to set

tariff policy. We can vote, but we are a minority. We cannot set tariff

policies and we are not in charge of the steel industry, the financial

industry, the fishing industry. We have surrendered control of

industry, the fishing industry. We nation and this referendum gives us

a chance to take control of both industries. Let me take you back to

the question, which was that we did bail out the banks, and Sally says,

why not bail out the steel industry? The British government, do you

believe it should find the money to nationalise part of the steel

industry? I believe in helping. The reason we bailed out the banks was

because that was agreed at European level. Funny how now those banks are

the same people, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, who were chucking shed loads

of money into the remaining campaign in the referendum. We should stop

the dumping of Chinese steel onto the market at levels that are

unacceptable and unfair. That is what we should do. You can quite

easily help the steel industry would not having to nationalise it. The

industry needs to stand on its own two feet, but take the boundaries of

way. We have got expensive energy costs and tariffs. We have a

fantastic opportunity and a natural resource in Wales to create energy

through the use of a tidal lagoon that can create the resource for the

steel industry on its doorstep in portal book. Why can't we think of

the bigger picture instead of being narrow-minded? -- import Tolbert. We

can subsidise but not necessarily nationalise. That is why I called

for a temporary nationalisation so it can get to stand on its own to --

two feet. In terms of the bigger picture, the point has been well

made. We have talked a lot about tariffs and the position that this

government has taken, but I think, in terms of Ukip voting record, they

have the worst ever voting record across Europe. I know this is a

fact, you actually voted to block lower energy prices. Quite frankly,

all of this is very well related, and I think we have to look at the

bigger picture, in terms of renewable energy. What are we

prepared to subsidise and what are we not prepared to? At the moment,

we are subsidising a one-horse race, nuclear. We have to look at the

bigger picture. I have never voted for more extensive energy full stop

-- expensive energy. Renewables, great in theory, but in practice

they are costing hundreds of thousands of jobs in heavy

manufacturing by causing expensive electricity across the UK, and that

is a fact. Let's go back to Sally. What is your view? I can't

understand why they can't increase the tariffs and lower the energy

costs? Why can't we have lower energy costs was to mark the other

European countries seem to. Briefly, why can't we? UK companies pay 9p

per kilowatt. Is that right? We can and we are, so we are paying money,

taxpayers money is going to be steel companies to compensate them for

those additional energy costs that we are talking about. Why are the

costs doubled and in the rest of Europe? Various reasons... George

Osborne's carbon floor. Part of the reason for high energy bills is

because we are asking energy bill payers, both business, industry,

household, to subsidise renewables. That is generally a good thing, so

long as renewable energy is productive and contributing to a

healthy energy mix. Where it has its particular impact is with those

industries which use massive quantities of that energy, and there

is a case to help them. I am going to move onto another question. We

will take one from Jennifer Roland, please. Would Brexit be a way of

controlling immigration? That is Britain's exit from the European

Union. Would it be a way of controlling immigration? What is

your view? Are you in favour of Brexit to control immigration? I

would like to hear the panel's opinions first. Be brave! All my

working life I have worked for the NHS and I have seen the situation of

the establishment involved totally from the day I started to the day I

retired, and not always in a positive way. I have seen many

immigrants or foreigners or whatever you want to call them come and

contribute wonderfully to our society. They have brought

specialisms. They have contributed without any question. But something

has to be done, because our public services can't cope. And you think

leaving the EU might be the way? : it might be. I'm yet to be persuaded

conclusively. Well, my biggest issue with regards to this issue is the

fact that all of the side in this argument seem to be using

scaremongering with regards to immigration. Mr Farage said that we

need to get control of our borders, because, if we don't, there will be

an increase in terrorism. I think that is exactly the type of

scaremongering that worries me, and those kind of sentiment I find

frightening. You look at the terrorist atrocities that have

happened in England, the 7/7 bombers, three or four of those were

British-born. The people who murdered Lee Rigby, both were

British-born. You are looking at a situation where people are

cultivating a distrust of immigrants and immigration and ignoring what

they have contributed to the UK in order to create a sense of fear so

all of a sudden we don't want immigration to happen. David Cameron

is guilty as well. I saw a speech where you were talking about the

fear factor which shouldn't come into play, but David Cameron's

unacceptable comments about this jungle moving from Calais to the

south coast, should we go ahead with exiting Europe, is absolutely

ridiculous. I want to hear proper economic arguments. I don't want,

oh, Kent is going to look a bit dodgy! If that isn't scaremongering,

I don't know what is. The fact is that it was such a good example of

scaremongering that Ukip accused David Cameron of scaremongering, and

that is their territory. APPLAUSE

Nigel Farage. There are of arguments about the pros and cons of

immigration. Jennifer talked about the NHS. Cancer specialist Angus

Dalglish was saying this weekend that the reality is we have an NHS

that is available to 508 million people. That is not the number using

it, but it is available. You are right, whether we look at hospital

or primary school places, our public services cannot cope with a British

population that is rising by half a million people every year. But that

was not the question, and the fact that two of the Paris bombers got in

through the Greek Islands posing as refugees, important though that

debate is, and I certainly wouldn't want to scaremongering over it, but

I do think we should protect ourselves over those things if we

can. But the key question, the keyword, is, is Brexit the only way

we can control immigration? It is the only way we can, because the

fact is we are locked into something where we have a complete open door

to half a million people. Any one of those people can come to Britain.

When we were in a political union with France and the Netherlands and

Germany and countries that were roughly similar education standards,

income standards, it wasn't a problem, but now we have let in

countries that are very much poorer in eastern Europe and we see the

miseries that the south are going through, with a Eurozone that is

about to go back into crisis, we have realised it is irresponsible to

have a total open door. We can't predict what public services we

need, we have no idea within the nearest couple of million who will

be here in the next couple of years. I am not against immigration but I'm

for controlling immigration. I want us to exit political union, to have

a trade agreement but, in terms of immigration policy, I want an

Australian style points system, where people who come to Britain

have skills for Britain. where people who come to Britain

. Stephen Crabb, perhaps you would answer the accusation that the Prime

Minister was scaremongering talking about what would happen if we left.

Nigel tried to say that he is not against immigration. He is the man

who said he feels uncomfortable hearing foreign accents on the

train. He is a master of pressing the button of fear. Do you support

uncontrolled immigration? Are you happy if large sections of our towns

and cities are non-English speaking? Are you totally comfortable with

that? I don't feel uncomfortable on commuter lines, as you described,

hearing foreign accents being spoken. Said you are happy with an

open door to half a million people? That is fine, that is your

government policy! Lets have both views. We just heard a question

about the steel industry. Nigel tries to reduce everything to a

secret formula of Brexit. There is no question which can't be solved

with this potion in a bottle marked Brexit. It is nonsense. The

pressures of migration that Britain, Europe, North America, Australia are

facing, they don't change. It won't change whether we are in or out of

Europe. World is on the move. One of the biggest factors drawing people

to this country is the fact that we have such a dynamic economy. We are

creating new jobs at such a faster pace compared to other countries in

Europe and the majority of people coming to this country want to come

here to work. They are bringing skills, talents, their work ethic,

and that boosts our economy. What we need to address, which is why we

have gone down the road of renegotiation, is this artificial

draw factor created by having a benefits system which draws extra

people to the country because they can claim benefits from day one. We

want people to come and work. Is that a boost for British workers?

Because replacing them with foreign workers, or driving down the wages,

it may be good for the multinationals or the type of people

who find the Conservative Party, but is it good for British workers and

families? I don't think so. The woman in black. Mr Farage wants to

put the whole NHS crisis down to immigration. Please let me finish.

You are either completely naive or very manipulative. The problem isn't

immigrants. It is a factor, because there people come into the country,

and that is how we are working, but it is an ageing population, people

are surviving longer, surviving strokes and aneurysms more than

before, and what you are doing is dangerous but you can't see it

because you are so stuck in your rhetoric. Just because you have

changed the way you speak and you are careful with your words, it

doesn't mean your message is different to two years ago. I want

to go to this woman. Your turn. Iron you pointed out -- you pointed out

that two of the terrorists were British-born. That doesn't make you

British. I am Australian and my allegiances lie with Australia, so

that is one point. The immigration point of view is, too. If we need

more immigration to do jobs, we encourage our people to do them. We

train them. We bring up our children with a good work ethic, not that the

government owes you a living. And, yes, immigration needs to be

controlled and it needs to be controlled by a sovereign nation out

of the EU. APPLAUSE We have heard a lot of

arguments about Britain's leading Europe in terms of immigration, but

we need to look at the effect it will have persistently on Wales.

This building was made with EU funding and a lots of other places

in Wales rely on that funding. How do you expect the Welsh assembly to

run without that extra funding considering the government is

cutting the Welsh assembly budget and I can't see them fully

subsidising that funding if we were to leave?

I am in no doubt that it is in the interests of Wales to remain as a

member of the European Union, for many of the reasons you have

outlined. But the question is specifically about immigration. I

think we have to separate the types of immigration we are talking about.

When we have free movement of people in Europe there are positives and

negatives. There are 1.2 million people from Britain in other parts

of the EU, so there is a balance to be struck. The other immigration,

not related to membership of the EU, is the people coming from countries

like Syria, who are escaping war and they have come as refugees. So we

need to differentiate between the two groups. What are the negatives

to EU immigration? The point about driving down wages for unskilled

workers is a fair one, but I would say that would be dealt with by

strengthening trade unions and making sure everyone has a living

wage, not by pulling out of the European Union. But doesn't a higher

wage and attract more people? One of the points is that the government is

fiddling around with benefits. The camera and renegotiation is

pathetic. Limit benefits for four years and then they will be the same

as they are now. One of the government's flagship policies is to

take the minimum wage and to turn it into a living wage. It is a very,

very substantial increase. But that will drag in even more migrant

Labour, so the numbers coming to Britain will go up, not down. My

concern about this debate is the way in which the scaremongering takes

place, and the way in which we are encouraged to divide and rule. While

we are blaming immigrants, our eyes are not looking at those people who

are very, very wealthy, avoiding tax. If they were paying the right

tax, there would be enough resources for everyone. The woman with the

Fox. Is it a fox? I understand the argument for leaving the EU was

immigration, and I understand that it can be a bad thing. At the same

time, I don't think I see why we seem to have a fear over immigrants.

At the end of the day, we are all people, we are all human and we need

to support each other, and I don't feel we should get out of the EU

just because of the fact that they are coming into our country,

stealing our jobs, getting our benefits. I am pretty sure the

average immigrant in the street would not say they are here to steal

your job, use the NHS, take benefits and so on.

I agree totally. We are calling them immigrants, they are actually human

beings like the rest of us. They are very desperate human beings, leaving

everything they know, their homes. They have nothing with them,

sometimes, no possessions. They are desperate. If we were in a situation

of such desperation we would want someone to help us. You are not

talking about wrecks it being a factor, you are talking about Syrian

refugees. -- Brexit. They are separate. We are mixing immigration

with exit in Europe. How can we make a decision about whether we stay in

or leave Europe when we are given so little information about Europe? It

has turned into a political game. Anywhere else in Europe, they have

trips to the European Parliament, they go to see debates, things are

televised on the news. Here, we hear nothing about ordinary debates in

Europe and we are asked to suddenly make a decision. Carwyn Jones, do

you agree? There is a lot of misinformation about Europe. Some of

the media in London, some of the newspapers, they border on fantasy.

But it is an important issue and it deserves to have an important

debate. One of the things I regret is that the referendum will be six

weeks after an election in Wales. We should have a proper debate without

an election in the middle. The question is about immigration. Let

me take some of the heat out of this. Every person in this room, and

every person watching tonight is the descendant of an immigrant. It all

depends when your family came. All of my family are Welsh, but I have

blue eyes, which means at some point someone in my family lived near the

Caspian Sea in Asia. Welsh has its roots in Sanskrit. Where do we draw

the line? We have to bear that in mind. People are afraid of

immigration, what it might mean for them and their jobs, and I

understand that. It tugs at the heartstrings. We see people at the

Borders, children who lost their lives, people who are coming and not

doing it lightly, who have seen relatives killed. We also know we

cannot accommodate everybody in Europe. The point is, this is a

European issue that needs a European solution. To think the UK can bury

its head in the sand and hope it goes away is not going to work. The

other thing is that if you leave the EU controlling immigration,

Switzerland is not a member of the EU and its immigration rate is more

than double that of the EU. Secondly, if we leave the EU, we

suddenly have a land border Secondly, if we leave the EU, we

be policed. You Secondly, if we leave the EU, we

immigration unless you have cooperation from at

immigration unless you have Republic of Ireland. We have to

think how Republic of Ireland. We have to

European terms. For me, Republic of Ireland. We have to

European solution, rather than what we see at the moment which is a lot

of hot air, a lot of people having things thrown at them that are

scaremongering. Let's act as human beings and be rational about helping

other people, yes, but also understanding that the EU does not

affect the level of immigration and Switzerland is an example. The woman

in yellow. I wanted to pick up on the point that Brexit is just about

immigration, that is a small part of it in my mind. I am not 100% that

this was funded by EU money. It probably was. We don't need theatres

and arts centres, we need investment in industry to create jobs in a

deprived area, we need factories, not art galleries, ice rinks. If we

came out of Europe, instead of spending millions of pounds paying

into a project to flatter us with lovely theatres, could that money

not be used to in carriage industry, global companies, to come and build

factories in Wales? -- to encourage industry.

Why is it only Nigel Farage who mentions controlled immigration?

Quite, because that was the question. It has to be controlled.

Quite, because that was the The answer is that it is the only

way of controlling immigration, and the panel have danced around the

issue and ignored the question. APPLAUSE

I see it every week, we always go on about houses and the health service

and schools being pushed, but it has to be controlled. The problem is,

Nigel is right to talk about controlling immigration. Nobody has

a problem with that. It is the nature of the debate I find

distasteful. You get to a point where every symptom of your

frustrations in everyday life are blamed on immigrants. You are in

able shop and it is busy, we have let too many of them in, it is a

nightmare! Actually, with the population having risen as much as

ours, congestion is a very real problem. But the problem is not the

problem of controlling immigration. That is not

problem of controlling immigration. the way that debate is held

engenders a distrust among our population.

engenders a distrust among our Nigel is right to say that Brexit

will control immigration, but it is just the way it is put that you do

not like? I am not saying it is the only way to control immigration. But

I do believe uncontrolled immigration is a bad thing. We have

a few minutes and I want to take a question. Should MPs pay rise faster

than nurses and teachers? Welsh assembly members are getting ?10,000

wage rise this year, which I make 80%, up to 60 4000. Is that right?

It is. Is it right? Ola No. It is not going to wash with people when

you have an increase like that. At one time we used to vote on our own

pay increase, so we created a system where an independent panel suggests

what the pay increase should be. I don't think it works. What should

you do about it? I would like to say, we have a system where our

paying Greece is linked to teachers, nurses, doctors. We would not have a

situation where we have nothing for three or four years. What are you

going to do with the ten grand? APPLAUSE

I will continue to give a substantial amount to charity. I

always have done. I do not make a song and dance, but that is the

answer. You mentioned it, though. I don't think people can accept the

pay of politicians rising as fast as it has and I have said I will mop

take the pay rise. I will not give it to charity, I will not take it,

as I did not take the ?23,000 increase I was entitled to when I

became leader of the party. Because in these times when people are

facing cuts, when we are losing public services, libraries, when so

many people are reliant on food banks, food banks in 2016, that is

what people cannot accept, when politicians take huge pay increases.

In the blue shirt. So, are any of you going to give it back? Well, she

is not taking it. I am sorry. But you are all going to accept it? The

problem with the pay of MPs now is that we took the correct decision to

hand it to an independent body, to take MPs away from voting on their

salary. It is an independent body to make the decision about salary and

pensions for MPs. That removes any mechanism for an MP to say, I do not

want that pay increase. There is not the mechanism in the way it is paid

to say that. Leanne Wood said she refuses to take it. I have not

flipped my home! Hang on, the First Minister of Wales says you get paid

anyway. You cannot not be paid. After the next election, the money

will be paid anyway. That is my understanding. I will not defend it.

I am amazed that two assembly members do not know how they are

paid! Well, I am paid in euros, as an MEP. So your pay is going up. As

my foreign exchange trading expert on my right will explain, as the

pound has fallen, my euro is in our buying more pounds. So my pay

fluctuates. The question was, is it right. I think Parliament does not

regulate the steel industry, does not regulate the banking industry,

the fishing industry, I think we should cut the pay of MPs, unless we

get Brexit, and then we should pay them more because they will be

running the country. Let's be honest, they have to pretend to be

awkward about it, but they are loving it.

APPLAUSE Very briefly, in the fourth row. I

think it is disgusting in a time of food banks and austerity that only

one politician on the panel is willing to turn down the pay rise. I

think everyone on the panel, apart from the comedian, should do. He is

free, is the? -- is he? We have to stop. Our time is up and we can only

do one hour. Someone was saying earlier that we should do two hours.

That would be nice, but our time is up. We will be in

Stratford-upon-Avon next week. The week after that we will be in Poole.

If you would like to come to Stratford-upon-Avon, or to pool,

applied to the website, or phone. If you are listening on radio, the

debate continues until the early hours. Here, it comes to a halt.

Thank you to our panel, to all of you who came to take part. From

Llanelli, until next Thursday night, from Question Time, good night.

For waking us up... CHRIS EVANS: Good morning, friends.