11/02/2016 Question Time


11/02/2016

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Llanelli.


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Transcript


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Tonight we are in Llanelli in west Wales and this is Question Time.

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As every week, a big welcome to you if you are watching on TV, listening

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on radio five, a big welcome to you in our audience and of course our

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panel. It might, the Conservative Secretary of State for Wales,

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Stephen Crabb. Labour's First Minister of Wales, Carwyn Jones. The

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lead of Ukip, Nigel Farage. The lead of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the

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medium, Romesh Ranganathan. -- and the comedian. Thanks very much. I am

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sure you don't need reminding but, if you want to get stuck into the

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debate, we have all sorts of ways you can do it, and Facebook,

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Twitter, you can follow us at BBC Question Time, you can text us

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comments if you prefer. If you push the red button, you will see other

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peoples comments and maybe yours along the bottom of the screen.

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Alice had first question. Who is wrong, 53,000 junior doctors or

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Jeremy Hunt? Nigel Farage. I think the object of the government was to

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address a problem and the problem was that more people were dying on

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Saturdays and Sundays. One of the reasons for that was the imposition

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of the working Time directive, which the NHS found very difficult to

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adjust to. The government's objectives in making sure that in

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England, and we are in Wales where the situation is different, but the

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government objective is to try to get the NHS is safe and brilliant as

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it is seven days a week is clearly the right one. However, whether they

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have gone about it the right way is another question. When I first heard

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about this, you think of 23-year-olds after their degree and

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I thought, OK, if they have to work hard and they are poorly paid for a

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couple of years, they don't quite quickly to well-paid jobs. Actually,

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a junior doctor is anybody below the level of a consultant, so somebody

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could be 45 with a family and facing such a drastic cut to their overtime

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pay that actually they wouldn't be very well paid at all. So the

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government is right to try and get seven days a week health care, but I

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think they have gone about it in an insensitive manner. Romesh

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Ranganathan. With regards to Jeremy Hunt, considering he is working with

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doctors, his bedside manner has been appalling.

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APPLAUSE I don't think there is any debate

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that the issues needed to be addressed, but the way he has

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handled this, if you are talking about doctors' morale, what he has

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done has been, I think, unacceptable. What has happened is

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offers have been made to junior doctors, they have rejected it and

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it has been enforced on them, and he has made comments that they need to

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think more carefully about going on strike. They haven't entered into

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those decisions lightly. Nobody is striking on a whim. It hasn't

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happened a long time. They have done it because they feel seriously about

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the situation, and the long-term effects on who is going to go into

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medicine will be felt by the fact it is involved in this contract. It is

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not right. We are now in a weird situation where doctors have a

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different contract in England to different countries in the UK. David

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Cameron made comments about the Welsh NHS and, ironically, we will

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probably have a few English doctors coming here to take up the better

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contracts. APPLAUSE

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Stephen Crabb. I think the government and the doctors want

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exactly the same thing out of the new contract. They want a contract

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which gives dignity to the junior doctors, who shoulder an enormous

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burden in delivering high quality care in the NHS seven days a week,

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but we need to try and extend the uniform excellence not just Monday

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to Friday but Saturdays and Sundays, to address the weekend effect. When

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the NHS was founded, Bevan had the concept of the universalisation of

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the best, so it shouldn't just be sporadic, it should be evenly spread

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across the NHS. In addressing the weekend effect, so that Saturday and

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Sunday, equally high care is being given as with Monday to Friday, that

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is the right thing to do. But the current contract, everybody agrees,

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is not fit for purpose. You see junior doctors working up to 91

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hours, continuously, during the week, leading to a lots of stress on

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junior doctors. There are good reasons for addressing the current

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contract. Just because the Welsh government isn't having this tussle

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at the moment with the junior doctors and the BMA trade union

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doesn't mean that the same issues won't have to be phased out on in

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future in Wales and Scotland. We have taken the decision as a

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government to address the seven-day issue to ensure we get better

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outcomes. Romesh Ranganathan said it hasn't been well handled by the

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Secretary of State. Has it been? If you look at the shifts the

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government had made in terms of concessions to doctors, and the

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contract that will be introduced now, 90% of that has already been

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agreed in negotiations, so there is a lot in the contract that junior

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doctors will welcome. The sticking point we got two was around estate

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away that improve the status of Saturday, would it be a normal

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working day or unsociable hours. If you are that close, why not get it

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to a point where the doctors are happy? There is something else going

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on. Having said what I said, where I think there has been some

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intransigence is on the part of the BMA. If you look at the history of

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the NHS, every reforming Secretary of State for Health, be it Labour or

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Conservative, going right back to the days of Bevan, at some point or

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other, they come up against the intransigence of the BMA. That is

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their history. When junior doctors are on strike, it is a sign of

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abject failure. APPLAUSE

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We haven't always agreed with the BMA. There have been times we have

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disagreed with each other, but there has never been a situation where

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doctors felt they had to go on strike, that they had to stand

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outside hospitals with placards saying save the NHS, and now there

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is talk of consultants doing the same. If you look at what has

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happened in Wales, we can see there fewer people in Wales stuck in

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hospital, waiting to go home, the opposite of England. We spend more

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on health per head in Wales. Waiting times are going up in England. ?3

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billion was a little weight on reorganisation in England, but not

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in Wales. -- was hosed away. We want people to have the right access to

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health services, which means making sure morale is high. Morale is

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dropping in England. I have no compunction in saying to junior

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doctors, come to Wales, you will be treated with respect. Because your

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cancer care provisions are so poor, you have got 50,000 Welsh patience

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who go to England. On every measure in the United Kingdom... Just wait,

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will you, please? If to what you speak at once, nobody here at home

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can hear a word of what you are saying. It is pointless. Take

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Nigel's intervention and then you can comment. 50,000 people from

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Wales went to England to get health care last year. I know you are

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embarrassed about it, and it is awkward for you, but the truth is...

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It is untrue. You won't listen because you have a lot to hide. On

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every measure of waiting times and health care provision, Wales is the

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failing part of the NHS in the UK. That is complete and utter nonsense.

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Briefly. We do better on cancer, they're not 50,000 people going to

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England for cancer care, you made that figure up. Unless you can tell

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us what it is wrong, you made up. You couldn't name a German

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Chancellor the other week. You make this up as you go along. It was 4%.

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You couldn't name the Chancellor. Let's leave this local dispute. The

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woman in spectacles, I will come to you in a moment. I want to address

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something to Nigel Farage. I received cancer care at Prince

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Philip hospital in Llanelli last year. The treatment was second to

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none. I had a referral from my GP to the unit that I was being treated at

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and I was seen within ten days. I am going back for a scan on Monday and

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I have actually heard now that statistics for referrals for urgent

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cancer care, these statistics which have just come out, those referral

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times are going down, which is something I think we should be

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celebrating here in Wales. Nigel, please, I want to bring us back to

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the original question, which is, who is wrong, 53,000 junior doctors or

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Jeremy Hunt? I agree with the junior doctors and I think Jeremy Hunt is

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wrong. Are you against a seven-day NHS? Doctors work seven days now.

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Saturdays and Sundays, equal outcome? When your guidance suggests

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they are being lazy at the weekend... That is the impression

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you were kidding. There protesters outside Welsh hospitals because of

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Labour's centralisation plans as well. While we need extra doctors in

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Wales, and this is an opportunity to get them, because in Wales we have

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fewer doctors per head of the population than all but three

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European Union countries, so we need to do a lot more in terms of

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planning for doctors, and Plaid Cymru's proposals for 1000 extra

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doctors in the Welsh NHS has been rubbished by the First Minister on

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the basis that he is pretty much in denial that we don't have enough

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staff in hospitals. The Royal college of medicine recently warned

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that Wales's A departments are on the edge due to increasing demand

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and staff shortages. I welcome the First Minister saying he has a plan

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to try and recruit extra doctors who have been on strike in England, and

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I'm glad he has come round to Plaid Cymru's way of thinking. Let's hear

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from the audience. Yes. On the doctors. I qualified in medicine in

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1976 and you are quite right to point out that there have been a

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number of difficulties with Secretary of States since that time

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over the last 40 years. None have got such a lack of respect as the

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current Secretary of State, Mr Hundt. -- Mr Hunt. He has at best

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been disingenuous because, as Mr Farage pointed out, there is

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increased mortality at weekends, but there is nothing that has been

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suggested or proven to show that that is related to any lack of

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junior doctors at that time. It is multifactorial. They work hard seven

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days a week and, by imposing this contract on them, that will, I hope,

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help the serious recruitment problem we have in Wales. We are focusing on

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doctors tonight but they will not be working on their own. What comes

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next for new contracts, nurses, cleaners, porters? It seems we are

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starting with the doctors, what happens next? ... What do you think?

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With regards to nurses' contracts, they will have to be looked at and

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everybody's will have to be looked at. We are talking about junior

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doctors now but this will go all the way down. The thin end of the wedge,

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in other words? It is true that there are other roles performed in

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hospitals. If we generally to move to this... Forgive me, but nobody is

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saying junior doctors are not working really hard at the weekend.

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Of course they are, shouldering a huge burden alongside nurses in

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keeping the NHS in business at the weekend, but it is about addressing

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what has become known as weekend effect to ensure an even quality of

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excellence from Monday all the way to Sunday, seven days a week. There

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will be other roles in the NHS that need to be looked at. The decision

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that needs to be taken by the Welsh and Scottish Government and the

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administration in Northern Ireland is whether they will embrace this

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challenge or run away from it because it is too difficult.

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Everybody would love a negotiated outcome. That is what we tried to

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get, but that wasn't possible, and so we are going to have to move

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ahead with this new contract. If you are not saying it is junior

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doctors who cause the weekend effect, why is it that in direct

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response to dealing with the weekend effect, you are changing the

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contracts for junior doctors? You are contradicting yourself. That is

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exactly what you have done. The existing contract prevents the

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changes to rostering that would be necessary to address the problem of

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the weekend effect. The point I also made earlier was that, pushing to

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decide the issue of the seven-day NHS, the current contract is not fit

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for purpose. The BMA have agreed that, junior doctors know it is not

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fit for purpose and leads to doctors being overworked, which puts patient

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service at risk. Going back to Leanne Acra's point, she made a

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point about the amount of nurses employed in Wales. Yesterday, we saw

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Kirsty Williams, the Welsh Lib Dem leader, her bill on more nurses was

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passed, which would require minimum staffing levels for nurses on NHS

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wards in Wales. Does that not show the failure of the Labour government

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in Wales in funding, giving us a good NHS? What is your view of this

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seven-day working thing, Carwyn Jones? I have not noticed my local

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hospital closing its doors on Friday and opening on Monday. We know

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hospitals work seven days a week. Stephen is saying that his

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government, the government he is a member of, negotiates with people,

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and if there is no agreement, they impose settlement anyway. That is

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not negotiation and that is not the way we will do things in Wales.

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Scotland and Northern Ireland will also take the same approach. We want

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to work with doctors, not impose terms on them. We can see the chaos

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being created in the NHS. We have more doctors in Wales than ever,

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more nurses than ever. That does not mean there are no challengers. We

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know for example in A demand goes up 7% every year, and meeting that

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can be difficult. But we spend more per head on health in Wales than in

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England. We have fewer doctors per head of population than warmest

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every country in the EU, except for three. I don't accept that at all,

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because we have more doctors than ever before. It is a fact. We have

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world leading centres, such as a burns unit in Swansea. They are

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world leaders. Of course we want to attract people to Wales who Ahmed

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qui qualified, but we will not do it on the basis of saying to our

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medical profession, you come into Wales, we will talk to you but we

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will never listen. Tell me how many countries in the EU have more

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doctors per head of population than Wales? Romania, Poland and Slovenia

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have fewer doctors per head of population than we do in Wales. You

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have just told me that is not the case. Stephen Crabb, you are

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Secretary of State for Wales. You know the facts and figures. Is she

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right or wrong? It might sound like I am ducking the question but health

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is fully devolved. I am not familiar with those statistics. You are

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Secretary of State for Wales, surely you follow what is going on here.

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APPLAUSE Carwyn Jones might not have the BMA

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knocking on his door having an argument about delivering health

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services, but hardly a month goes by without protests outside the

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assembly buildings by patients and families who are sick and tired of

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the reorganisation of A, maternity services, paediatrics. There are

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plenty of problems. A point from you, and then you. Is it not

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glaringly obvious that at the turn of the molinia made previous

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government car crashed GP services and as a consequence people are

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turning up in A, increasing the onus on the hospital service. And

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another factor that seems glaringly obvious, you

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another factor that seems glaringly paid a fortune. Why not put

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another factor that seems glaringly doctors into the salaries, thereby

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funding doctors into the salaries, thereby

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not the backwards way round? OK, and you, sir. Spreading the workforce

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more thinly is not the solution. The problem is recruitment and

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retention. We have a ?3.3 billion spent on low, and agency staff last

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year in the NHS, and that speaks volumes.

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Is it all the Conservatives want to do, balance the deaths throughout

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the week, instead of just on the weekend?

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APPLAUSE And on that happy note... I think we

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will go on another question. I should just say, if you want to come

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to Question Time, next week we will be in Stratford-upon-Avon, and the

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week after that in Poole in Dorset. You can apply on the website, or you

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can phone. Now, a question from Sally McDonald. We bailed out the

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bankers. Why not bail out our steel industry?

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APPLAUSE Leanne Wood, are you a baler? I

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think the steel industry is as important to Wales as the banking

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industry was to the whole of the UK. And I think both governments on both

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ends of the motorway should be doing everything possible to look at

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finding a solution to protect the jobs and industry. It is hugely

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important to Wales. 18,000 jobs are in the steel industry in this

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country. It is ?3.2 billion of value to our economy. Once those jobs are

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lost in manufacturing industry from the area of Wales that I come from,

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we lost the mining industry and we are still paying the price for that

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today. Plaid Cymru has put forward a proposal for the Welsh government to

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continue to consider taking a public stake in the steel industry, to get

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over what we hope is a temporary situation. And then we can make sure

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those jobs are secure. Do you mean nationalisation it for a bit?

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Nationalise it, not for long? However long it would need. What do

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you do with the steel that is produced, with Chinese steel being

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so cheap? There are infrastructure projects in the pipeline for Wales.

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We have an extension of the Mfor-macro that is planned. There

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are rail projects in the pipeline. All of these will acquire steel. It

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is inconceivable that the industry would be put at risk. Then we would

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have to buy steel from elsewhere when we have reproduced here with

:21:37.:21:43.

the jobs that are reliant upon it. What is happening with the steel

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industry in Wales is hugely concerning for workers and families.

:21:47.:21:51.

It is a time of stress and uncertainty. That is true for every

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country on earth where steel is being produced right now. There is a

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global storm that has turned global steel markets upside down. Leanne

:22:00.:22:04.

Wood is quite right, for Wales, steel is not just iconic Liam

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Porter, but economically important. Particularly here in south Wales.

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The idea of nationalisation sounds appealing on the surface if we

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really believed government had the answer, if there was a civil servant

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or a politician that had the answer to bring back profitability to the

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Welsh steel industry. The truth is there have been times when the steel

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industry has been nationalised and that has not stopped job cuts. So do

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nothing? That is not what is happening, and you know that. Sally

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up in the corner said, you bailed out the bankers, why not the steel

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industry? The bankers, you are gradually selling them back. They'll

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out the steel industry for the short term. The point is... Persuade her.

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Is taxpayers money being used to support steel industry and steel

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jobs elsewhere in the UK? Absolutely. The UK Government is

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spending tens of millions of your money to help relieve energy costs,

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to support the steel industry in different ways. Government is not

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going to bring back profitability to the steel industry and people in the

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industry know that. It is about working with the industry to help

:23:18.:23:21.

create a level playing field, to protect against the dumping of cheap

:23:22.:23:26.

Chinese steel, to help the steel industry modernise and return to

:23:27.:23:31.

profitability. That is the only way to get sustainable steel jobs in

:23:32.:23:34.

Wales. You cannot say you want to protect Welsh steel from Chinese

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dumping when at the same time there are people from your government

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trying to make sure that tariffs are not imposed on Chinese steel. The US

:23:44.:23:49.

imposes a 200 and sick stiff 5% import tariffs on Chinese steel to

:23:50.:24:01.

the United states. -- 264% import tariff on Chinese steel. You got a

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round of applause by saying something that is completely untrue.

:24:10.:24:13.

UK Government ministers have been in Europe arguing for tariffs on

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imported Chinese steel, tariffs on other steel products coming in. You

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are completely wrong. At the same time you are lobbying for Watt

:24:26.:24:30.

Carwyn Jones, what can the Welsh government do? First of all, our

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plans are not antiquated. They have had investment. Getting through this

:24:36.:24:39.

difficult time is the important thing. First of all, tariffs, Leanne

:24:40.:24:46.

Wood is correct, the Tories have opposed the imposition of tariffs at

:24:47.:24:50.

a European level. Nigel will tell you that it is a problem in London,

:24:51.:24:54.

not in Brussels. It means we should protect European steel. There are

:24:55.:24:58.

two other issues. First, the strength of the pound, exports are

:24:59.:25:04.

being hit because of it. And energy prices. The pound is falling on the

:25:05.:25:09.

exchanges. What are you talking about? Oh, dear! If you talk to

:25:10.:25:14.

people in the steel industry, you might learn something. Energy costs

:25:15.:25:20.

are far too high in the UK. Other countries have far more renewables

:25:21.:25:24.

than us but energy costs are lower. It is right to say that the UK

:25:25.:25:28.

Government has recognised that and said we will do something about it,

:25:29.:25:33.

but nothing has happened yet. That is the problem. We have put forward

:25:34.:25:37.

a package of 50 million to help the steel industry. On its own, that

:25:38.:25:41.

will not be enough. We need to make sure we get support from the UK

:25:42.:25:46.

Government, and we need progress on those infrastructure projects. It

:25:47.:25:51.

means HS2, electrification, we have no date for electrification to

:25:52.:25:58.

Swansea. All of these things can create a market for Welsh steel. And

:25:59.:26:03.

the government can insist on using British steel for that? You cannot

:26:04.:26:10.

be that blunt but you can specify through the procurement process that

:26:11.:26:13.

you use steel of a specific quality. That is how other countries do it.

:26:14.:26:19.

So you write the specification so that it can only be provided by

:26:20.:26:24.

Wales or the Northeast? Other countries do it, it is time we got

:26:25.:26:30.

smarter. As a steel worker facing redundancy, I would like to ask

:26:31.:26:35.

Steven, I felt completely betrayed this week when the government

:26:36.:26:39.

opposed the increase in tariff for cheap imported steel. I want to know

:26:40.:26:43.

when the government is going to start talking the talk and walk the

:26:44.:26:47.

walk and support British industry and British jobs.

:26:48.:26:49.

APPLAUSE The UK Government has voted for and

:26:50.:27:01.

supported and called for tariffs against cheap Chinese steel. The

:27:02.:27:05.

vote you are referring to was an effort by other countries in Europe

:27:06.:27:08.

which was blocked by a range of other countries in Europe, not just

:27:09.:27:14.

to address the underpricing and undercutting by Chinese steel but to

:27:15.:27:18.

put barriers above that which would have a negative impact on wider

:27:19.:27:21.

industry in the UK, destroying jobs in the wider economy. That

:27:22.:27:29.

industry in the UK, destroying jobs European countries. Once the British

:27:30.:27:33.

steel industry has gone, we have to buy it from overseas. What will

:27:34.:27:39.

happen when the economy picks up? The thing is, I have read the same

:27:40.:27:45.

things as you. I was disappointed as well because the government have

:27:46.:27:48.

been making noises about supporting British steel and it feels like what

:27:49.:27:52.

they are saying is a lie. What they are doing is in direct contradiction

:27:53.:27:55.

of that because they blocked the tariffs. The European Commission

:27:56.:28:01.

wanted to make British steel more competitive and it was blocked by

:28:02.:28:06.

us. What is going on? I take your argument that there are other

:28:07.:28:09.

industries that are dependent on that, but then you just have to

:28:10.:28:14.

admit. Don't say you are going to support British steel when you are

:28:15.:28:15.

not going to. support British steel when you are

:28:16.:28:18.

Sally, you asked the question, why APPLAUSE

:28:19.:28:25.

Sally, you asked the question, why is

:28:26.:28:29.

for supporting the steel industry? And the answer is, because it can't,

:28:30.:28:32.

because it is important. It has And the answer is, because it can't,

:28:33.:28:37.

given away the power. I worked And the answer is, because it can't,

:28:38.:28:38.

this industry for 20 years And the answer is, because it can't,

:28:39.:28:41.

getting into politics. That is the difference, I worked in

:28:42.:28:43.

getting into politics. That is the understand the subject. You thought

:28:44.:28:49.

the pound was going up when it is going through the floor, so give me

:28:50.:28:51.

a break, please! Will you listen to the facts?

:28:52.:29:03.

Sterling is... If you don't get it, goodness knows how Wales gets you as

:29:04.:29:08.

First Minister. I really do not know. Answer the question. You in

:29:09.:29:19.

the pink shirt. What we have heard from this panel tonight is pitiful,

:29:20.:29:23.

because none of the politicians on this platform have the courage to

:29:24.:29:27.

tell you that, because the Chinese have had a downturn in their economy

:29:28.:29:31.

and they are dumping hundreds of thousands of tonnes of steel at a

:29:32.:29:35.

loss, just to get some foreign exchange in, and what we should be

:29:36.:29:42.

saying is, this isn't fair play. Leanne Wood mention the Americans.

:29:43.:29:45.

America is a sovereign country. When it needs to, it looks after American

:29:46.:29:51.

workers and American industry. As members of the EU, we are impotent

:29:52.:29:54.

and we can't do it and we must vote to get out.

:29:55.:30:03.

APPLAUSE That is all well and good, but the

:30:04.:30:08.

tariffs this person is referring to came from the European Commission,

:30:09.:30:13.

not blocked by us. We are not allowed in this country to set

:30:14.:30:20.

tariff policy. We can vote, but we are a minority. We cannot set tariff

:30:21.:30:24.

policies and we are not in charge of the steel industry, the financial

:30:25.:30:29.

industry, the fishing industry. We have surrendered control of

:30:30.:30:32.

industry, the fishing industry. We nation and this referendum gives us

:30:33.:30:36.

a chance to take control of both industries. Let me take you back to

:30:37.:30:39.

the question, which was that we did bail out the banks, and Sally says,

:30:40.:30:46.

why not bail out the steel industry? The British government, do you

:30:47.:30:50.

believe it should find the money to nationalise part of the steel

:30:51.:30:56.

industry? I believe in helping. The reason we bailed out the banks was

:30:57.:30:59.

because that was agreed at European level. Funny how now those banks are

:31:00.:31:05.

the same people, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, who were chucking shed loads

:31:06.:31:10.

of money into the remaining campaign in the referendum. We should stop

:31:11.:31:15.

the dumping of Chinese steel onto the market at levels that are

:31:16.:31:19.

unacceptable and unfair. That is what we should do. You can quite

:31:20.:31:26.

easily help the steel industry would not having to nationalise it. The

:31:27.:31:30.

industry needs to stand on its own two feet, but take the boundaries of

:31:31.:31:35.

way. We have got expensive energy costs and tariffs. We have a

:31:36.:31:39.

fantastic opportunity and a natural resource in Wales to create energy

:31:40.:31:42.

through the use of a tidal lagoon that can create the resource for the

:31:43.:31:47.

steel industry on its doorstep in portal book. Why can't we think of

:31:48.:31:53.

the bigger picture instead of being narrow-minded? -- import Tolbert. We

:31:54.:31:57.

can subsidise but not necessarily nationalise. That is why I called

:31:58.:32:03.

for a temporary nationalisation so it can get to stand on its own to --

:32:04.:32:10.

two feet. In terms of the bigger picture, the point has been well

:32:11.:32:15.

made. We have talked a lot about tariffs and the position that this

:32:16.:32:21.

government has taken, but I think, in terms of Ukip voting record, they

:32:22.:32:26.

have the worst ever voting record across Europe. I know this is a

:32:27.:32:31.

fact, you actually voted to block lower energy prices. Quite frankly,

:32:32.:32:36.

all of this is very well related, and I think we have to look at the

:32:37.:32:40.

bigger picture, in terms of renewable energy. What are we

:32:41.:32:44.

prepared to subsidise and what are we not prepared to? At the moment,

:32:45.:32:49.

we are subsidising a one-horse race, nuclear. We have to look at the

:32:50.:32:54.

bigger picture. I have never voted for more extensive energy full stop

:32:55.:33:00.

-- expensive energy. Renewables, great in theory, but in practice

:33:01.:33:03.

they are costing hundreds of thousands of jobs in heavy

:33:04.:33:09.

manufacturing by causing expensive electricity across the UK, and that

:33:10.:33:15.

is a fact. Let's go back to Sally. What is your view? I can't

:33:16.:33:20.

understand why they can't increase the tariffs and lower the energy

:33:21.:33:24.

costs? Why can't we have lower energy costs was to mark the other

:33:25.:33:30.

European countries seem to. Briefly, why can't we? UK companies pay 9p

:33:31.:33:40.

per kilowatt. Is that right? We can and we are, so we are paying money,

:33:41.:33:46.

taxpayers money is going to be steel companies to compensate them for

:33:47.:33:50.

those additional energy costs that we are talking about. Why are the

:33:51.:33:55.

costs doubled and in the rest of Europe? Various reasons... George

:33:56.:34:05.

Osborne's carbon floor. Part of the reason for high energy bills is

:34:06.:34:10.

because we are asking energy bill payers, both business, industry,

:34:11.:34:14.

household, to subsidise renewables. That is generally a good thing, so

:34:15.:34:18.

long as renewable energy is productive and contributing to a

:34:19.:34:23.

healthy energy mix. Where it has its particular impact is with those

:34:24.:34:27.

industries which use massive quantities of that energy, and there

:34:28.:34:34.

is a case to help them. I am going to move onto another question. We

:34:35.:34:38.

will take one from Jennifer Roland, please. Would Brexit be a way of

:34:39.:34:46.

controlling immigration? That is Britain's exit from the European

:34:47.:34:53.

Union. Would it be a way of controlling immigration? What is

:34:54.:34:59.

your view? Are you in favour of Brexit to control immigration? I

:35:00.:35:02.

would like to hear the panel's opinions first. Be brave! All my

:35:03.:35:09.

working life I have worked for the NHS and I have seen the situation of

:35:10.:35:14.

the establishment involved totally from the day I started to the day I

:35:15.:35:19.

retired, and not always in a positive way. I have seen many

:35:20.:35:24.

immigrants or foreigners or whatever you want to call them come and

:35:25.:35:29.

contribute wonderfully to our society. They have brought

:35:30.:35:33.

specialisms. They have contributed without any question. But something

:35:34.:35:40.

has to be done, because our public services can't cope. And you think

:35:41.:35:47.

leaving the EU might be the way? : it might be. I'm yet to be persuaded

:35:48.:35:56.

conclusively. Well, my biggest issue with regards to this issue is the

:35:57.:36:02.

fact that all of the side in this argument seem to be using

:36:03.:36:06.

scaremongering with regards to immigration. Mr Farage said that we

:36:07.:36:15.

need to get control of our borders, because, if we don't, there will be

:36:16.:36:20.

an increase in terrorism. I think that is exactly the type of

:36:21.:36:23.

scaremongering that worries me, and those kind of sentiment I find

:36:24.:36:28.

frightening. You look at the terrorist atrocities that have

:36:29.:36:32.

happened in England, the 7/7 bombers, three or four of those were

:36:33.:36:36.

British-born. The people who murdered Lee Rigby, both were

:36:37.:36:40.

British-born. You are looking at a situation where people are

:36:41.:36:43.

cultivating a distrust of immigrants and immigration and ignoring what

:36:44.:36:47.

they have contributed to the UK in order to create a sense of fear so

:36:48.:36:51.

all of a sudden we don't want immigration to happen. David Cameron

:36:52.:36:56.

is guilty as well. I saw a speech where you were talking about the

:36:57.:37:01.

fear factor which shouldn't come into play, but David Cameron's

:37:02.:37:05.

unacceptable comments about this jungle moving from Calais to the

:37:06.:37:11.

south coast, should we go ahead with exiting Europe, is absolutely

:37:12.:37:16.

ridiculous. I want to hear proper economic arguments. I don't want,

:37:17.:37:20.

oh, Kent is going to look a bit dodgy! If that isn't scaremongering,

:37:21.:37:24.

I don't know what is. The fact is that it was such a good example of

:37:25.:37:29.

scaremongering that Ukip accused David Cameron of scaremongering, and

:37:30.:37:33.

that is their territory. APPLAUSE

:37:34.:37:42.

Nigel Farage. There are of arguments about the pros and cons of

:37:43.:37:44.

immigration. Jennifer talked about the NHS. Cancer specialist Angus

:37:45.:37:51.

Dalglish was saying this weekend that the reality is we have an NHS

:37:52.:37:57.

that is available to 508 million people. That is not the number using

:37:58.:38:02.

it, but it is available. You are right, whether we look at hospital

:38:03.:38:06.

or primary school places, our public services cannot cope with a British

:38:07.:38:11.

population that is rising by half a million people every year. But that

:38:12.:38:15.

was not the question, and the fact that two of the Paris bombers got in

:38:16.:38:19.

through the Greek Islands posing as refugees, important though that

:38:20.:38:23.

debate is, and I certainly wouldn't want to scaremongering over it, but

:38:24.:38:26.

I do think we should protect ourselves over those things if we

:38:27.:38:30.

can. But the key question, the keyword, is, is Brexit the only way

:38:31.:38:36.

we can control immigration? It is the only way we can, because the

:38:37.:38:41.

fact is we are locked into something where we have a complete open door

:38:42.:38:46.

to half a million people. Any one of those people can come to Britain.

:38:47.:38:50.

When we were in a political union with France and the Netherlands and

:38:51.:38:53.

Germany and countries that were roughly similar education standards,

:38:54.:38:59.

income standards, it wasn't a problem, but now we have let in

:39:00.:39:03.

countries that are very much poorer in eastern Europe and we see the

:39:04.:39:07.

miseries that the south are going through, with a Eurozone that is

:39:08.:39:11.

about to go back into crisis, we have realised it is irresponsible to

:39:12.:39:14.

have a total open door. We can't predict what public services we

:39:15.:39:19.

need, we have no idea within the nearest couple of million who will

:39:20.:39:21.

be here in the next couple of years. I am not against immigration but I'm

:39:22.:39:27.

for controlling immigration. I want us to exit political union, to have

:39:28.:39:33.

a trade agreement but, in terms of immigration policy, I want an

:39:34.:39:36.

Australian style points system, where people who come to Britain

:39:37.:39:37.

have skills for Britain. where people who come to Britain

:39:38.:39:48.

. Stephen Crabb, perhaps you would answer the accusation that the Prime

:39:49.:39:51.

Minister was scaremongering talking about what would happen if we left.

:39:52.:39:57.

Nigel tried to say that he is not against immigration. He is the man

:39:58.:40:02.

who said he feels uncomfortable hearing foreign accents on the

:40:03.:40:05.

train. He is a master of pressing the button of fear. Do you support

:40:06.:40:14.

uncontrolled immigration? Are you happy if large sections of our towns

:40:15.:40:18.

and cities are non-English speaking? Are you totally comfortable with

:40:19.:40:24.

that? I don't feel uncomfortable on commuter lines, as you described,

:40:25.:40:28.

hearing foreign accents being spoken. Said you are happy with an

:40:29.:40:34.

open door to half a million people? That is fine, that is your

:40:35.:40:37.

government policy! Lets have both views. We just heard a question

:40:38.:40:45.

about the steel industry. Nigel tries to reduce everything to a

:40:46.:40:48.

secret formula of Brexit. There is no question which can't be solved

:40:49.:40:53.

with this potion in a bottle marked Brexit. It is nonsense. The

:40:54.:40:59.

pressures of migration that Britain, Europe, North America, Australia are

:41:00.:41:02.

facing, they don't change. It won't change whether we are in or out of

:41:03.:41:08.

Europe. World is on the move. One of the biggest factors drawing people

:41:09.:41:12.

to this country is the fact that we have such a dynamic economy. We are

:41:13.:41:16.

creating new jobs at such a faster pace compared to other countries in

:41:17.:41:20.

Europe and the majority of people coming to this country want to come

:41:21.:41:24.

here to work. They are bringing skills, talents, their work ethic,

:41:25.:41:29.

and that boosts our economy. What we need to address, which is why we

:41:30.:41:34.

have gone down the road of renegotiation, is this artificial

:41:35.:41:36.

draw factor created by having a benefits system which draws extra

:41:37.:41:40.

people to the country because they can claim benefits from day one. We

:41:41.:41:45.

want people to come and work. Is that a boost for British workers?

:41:46.:41:50.

Because replacing them with foreign workers, or driving down the wages,

:41:51.:41:54.

it may be good for the multinationals or the type of people

:41:55.:41:57.

who find the Conservative Party, but is it good for British workers and

:41:58.:42:03.

families? I don't think so. The woman in black. Mr Farage wants to

:42:04.:42:11.

put the whole NHS crisis down to immigration. Please let me finish.

:42:12.:42:15.

You are either completely naive or very manipulative. The problem isn't

:42:16.:42:20.

immigrants. It is a factor, because there people come into the country,

:42:21.:42:23.

and that is how we are working, but it is an ageing population, people

:42:24.:42:31.

are surviving longer, surviving strokes and aneurysms more than

:42:32.:42:34.

before, and what you are doing is dangerous but you can't see it

:42:35.:42:37.

because you are so stuck in your rhetoric. Just because you have

:42:38.:42:41.

changed the way you speak and you are careful with your words, it

:42:42.:42:44.

doesn't mean your message is different to two years ago. I want

:42:45.:42:50.

to go to this woman. Your turn. Iron you pointed out -- you pointed out

:42:51.:42:59.

that two of the terrorists were British-born. That doesn't make you

:43:00.:43:04.

British. I am Australian and my allegiances lie with Australia, so

:43:05.:43:08.

that is one point. The immigration point of view is, too. If we need

:43:09.:43:12.

more immigration to do jobs, we encourage our people to do them. We

:43:13.:43:16.

train them. We bring up our children with a good work ethic, not that the

:43:17.:43:24.

government owes you a living. And, yes, immigration needs to be

:43:25.:43:26.

controlled and it needs to be controlled by a sovereign nation out

:43:27.:43:30.

of the EU. APPLAUSE We have heard a lot of

:43:31.:43:39.

arguments about Britain's leading Europe in terms of immigration, but

:43:40.:43:42.

we need to look at the effect it will have persistently on Wales.

:43:43.:43:47.

This building was made with EU funding and a lots of other places

:43:48.:43:51.

in Wales rely on that funding. How do you expect the Welsh assembly to

:43:52.:43:55.

run without that extra funding considering the government is

:43:56.:43:58.

cutting the Welsh assembly budget and I can't see them fully

:43:59.:44:01.

subsidising that funding if we were to leave?

:44:02.:44:06.

I am in no doubt that it is in the interests of Wales to remain as a

:44:07.:44:12.

member of the European Union, for many of the reasons you have

:44:13.:44:16.

outlined. But the question is specifically about immigration. I

:44:17.:44:20.

think we have to separate the types of immigration we are talking about.

:44:21.:44:25.

When we have free movement of people in Europe there are positives and

:44:26.:44:30.

negatives. There are 1.2 million people from Britain in other parts

:44:31.:44:33.

of the EU, so there is a balance to be struck. The other immigration,

:44:34.:44:40.

not related to membership of the EU, is the people coming from countries

:44:41.:44:44.

like Syria, who are escaping war and they have come as refugees. So we

:44:45.:44:51.

need to differentiate between the two groups. What are the negatives

:44:52.:44:59.

to EU immigration? The point about driving down wages for unskilled

:45:00.:45:03.

workers is a fair one, but I would say that would be dealt with by

:45:04.:45:06.

strengthening trade unions and making sure everyone has a living

:45:07.:45:11.

wage, not by pulling out of the European Union. But doesn't a higher

:45:12.:45:18.

wage and attract more people? One of the points is that the government is

:45:19.:45:22.

fiddling around with benefits. The camera and renegotiation is

:45:23.:45:25.

pathetic. Limit benefits for four years and then they will be the same

:45:26.:45:31.

as they are now. One of the government's flagship policies is to

:45:32.:45:34.

take the minimum wage and to turn it into a living wage. It is a very,

:45:35.:45:40.

very substantial increase. But that will drag in even more migrant

:45:41.:45:45.

Labour, so the numbers coming to Britain will go up, not down. My

:45:46.:45:51.

concern about this debate is the way in which the scaremongering takes

:45:52.:45:55.

place, and the way in which we are encouraged to divide and rule. While

:45:56.:46:01.

we are blaming immigrants, our eyes are not looking at those people who

:46:02.:46:05.

are very, very wealthy, avoiding tax. If they were paying the right

:46:06.:46:12.

tax, there would be enough resources for everyone. The woman with the

:46:13.:46:23.

Fox. Is it a fox? I understand the argument for leaving the EU was

:46:24.:46:30.

immigration, and I understand that it can be a bad thing. At the same

:46:31.:46:35.

time, I don't think I see why we seem to have a fear over immigrants.

:46:36.:46:40.

At the end of the day, we are all people, we are all human and we need

:46:41.:46:44.

to support each other, and I don't feel we should get out of the EU

:46:45.:46:47.

just because of the fact that they are coming into our country,

:46:48.:46:51.

stealing our jobs, getting our benefits. I am pretty sure the

:46:52.:46:56.

average immigrant in the street would not say they are here to steal

:46:57.:47:02.

your job, use the NHS, take benefits and so on.

:47:03.:47:10.

I agree totally. We are calling them immigrants, they are actually human

:47:11.:47:14.

beings like the rest of us. They are very desperate human beings, leaving

:47:15.:47:18.

everything they know, their homes. They have nothing with them,

:47:19.:47:24.

sometimes, no possessions. They are desperate. If we were in a situation

:47:25.:47:28.

of such desperation we would want someone to help us. You are not

:47:29.:47:32.

talking about wrecks it being a factor, you are talking about Syrian

:47:33.:47:42.

refugees. -- Brexit. They are separate. We are mixing immigration

:47:43.:47:46.

with exit in Europe. How can we make a decision about whether we stay in

:47:47.:47:51.

or leave Europe when we are given so little information about Europe? It

:47:52.:47:55.

has turned into a political game. Anywhere else in Europe, they have

:47:56.:47:59.

trips to the European Parliament, they go to see debates, things are

:48:00.:48:03.

televised on the news. Here, we hear nothing about ordinary debates in

:48:04.:48:09.

Europe and we are asked to suddenly make a decision. Carwyn Jones, do

:48:10.:48:14.

you agree? There is a lot of misinformation about Europe. Some of

:48:15.:48:19.

the media in London, some of the newspapers, they border on fantasy.

:48:20.:48:24.

But it is an important issue and it deserves to have an important

:48:25.:48:26.

debate. One of the things I regret is that the referendum will be six

:48:27.:48:32.

weeks after an election in Wales. We should have a proper debate without

:48:33.:48:35.

an election in the middle. The question is about immigration. Let

:48:36.:48:41.

me take some of the heat out of this. Every person in this room, and

:48:42.:48:45.

every person watching tonight is the descendant of an immigrant. It all

:48:46.:48:51.

depends when your family came. All of my family are Welsh, but I have

:48:52.:48:55.

blue eyes, which means at some point someone in my family lived near the

:48:56.:49:01.

Caspian Sea in Asia. Welsh has its roots in Sanskrit. Where do we draw

:49:02.:49:06.

the line? We have to bear that in mind. People are afraid of

:49:07.:49:10.

immigration, what it might mean for them and their jobs, and I

:49:11.:49:14.

understand that. It tugs at the heartstrings. We see people at the

:49:15.:49:19.

Borders, children who lost their lives, people who are coming and not

:49:20.:49:22.

doing it lightly, who have seen relatives killed. We also know we

:49:23.:49:27.

cannot accommodate everybody in Europe. The point is, this is a

:49:28.:49:32.

European issue that needs a European solution. To think the UK can bury

:49:33.:49:36.

its head in the sand and hope it goes away is not going to work. The

:49:37.:49:40.

other thing is that if you leave the EU controlling immigration,

:49:41.:49:46.

Switzerland is not a member of the EU and its immigration rate is more

:49:47.:49:50.

than double that of the EU. Secondly, if we leave the EU, we

:49:51.:49:52.

suddenly have a land border Secondly, if we leave the EU, we

:49:53.:49:59.

be policed. You Secondly, if we leave the EU, we

:50:00.:50:02.

immigration unless you have cooperation from at

:50:03.:50:09.

immigration unless you have Republic of Ireland. We have to

:50:10.:50:14.

think how Republic of Ireland. We have to

:50:15.:50:17.

European terms. For me, Republic of Ireland. We have to

:50:18.:50:22.

European solution, rather than what we see at the moment which is a lot

:50:23.:50:27.

of hot air, a lot of people having things thrown at them that are

:50:28.:50:31.

scaremongering. Let's act as human beings and be rational about helping

:50:32.:50:34.

other people, yes, but also understanding that the EU does not

:50:35.:50:39.

affect the level of immigration and Switzerland is an example. The woman

:50:40.:50:47.

in yellow. I wanted to pick up on the point that Brexit is just about

:50:48.:50:52.

immigration, that is a small part of it in my mind. I am not 100% that

:50:53.:51:00.

this was funded by EU money. It probably was. We don't need theatres

:51:01.:51:04.

and arts centres, we need investment in industry to create jobs in a

:51:05.:51:09.

deprived area, we need factories, not art galleries, ice rinks. If we

:51:10.:51:15.

came out of Europe, instead of spending millions of pounds paying

:51:16.:51:18.

into a project to flatter us with lovely theatres, could that money

:51:19.:51:25.

not be used to in carriage industry, global companies, to come and build

:51:26.:51:30.

factories in Wales? -- to encourage industry.

:51:31.:51:37.

Why is it only Nigel Farage who mentions controlled immigration?

:51:38.:51:40.

Quite, because that was the question. It has to be controlled.

:51:41.:51:47.

Quite, because that was the The answer is that it is the only

:51:48.:51:52.

way of controlling immigration, and the panel have danced around the

:51:53.:51:57.

issue and ignored the question. APPLAUSE

:51:58.:51:59.

I see it every week, we always go on about houses and the health service

:52:00.:52:07.

and schools being pushed, but it has to be controlled. The problem is,

:52:08.:52:17.

Nigel is right to talk about controlling immigration. Nobody has

:52:18.:52:21.

a problem with that. It is the nature of the debate I find

:52:22.:52:27.

distasteful. You get to a point where every symptom of your

:52:28.:52:31.

frustrations in everyday life are blamed on immigrants. You are in

:52:32.:52:35.

able shop and it is busy, we have let too many of them in, it is a

:52:36.:52:43.

nightmare! Actually, with the population having risen as much as

:52:44.:52:46.

ours, congestion is a very real problem. But the problem is not the

:52:47.:52:53.

problem of controlling immigration. That is not

:52:54.:52:54.

problem of controlling immigration. the way that debate is held

:52:55.:52:59.

engenders a distrust among our population.

:53:00.:53:01.

engenders a distrust among our Nigel is right to say that Brexit

:53:02.:53:07.

will control immigration, but it is just the way it is put that you do

:53:08.:53:13.

not like? I am not saying it is the only way to control immigration. But

:53:14.:53:17.

I do believe uncontrolled immigration is a bad thing. We have

:53:18.:53:26.

a few minutes and I want to take a question. Should MPs pay rise faster

:53:27.:53:44.

than nurses and teachers? Welsh assembly members are getting ?10,000

:53:45.:53:51.

wage rise this year, which I make 80%, up to 60 4000. Is that right?

:53:52.:54:00.

It is. Is it right? Ola No. It is not going to wash with people when

:54:01.:54:06.

you have an increase like that. At one time we used to vote on our own

:54:07.:54:11.

pay increase, so we created a system where an independent panel suggests

:54:12.:54:14.

what the pay increase should be. I don't think it works. What should

:54:15.:54:20.

you do about it? I would like to say, we have a system where our

:54:21.:54:25.

paying Greece is linked to teachers, nurses, doctors. We would not have a

:54:26.:54:31.

situation where we have nothing for three or four years. What are you

:54:32.:54:35.

going to do with the ten grand? APPLAUSE

:54:36.:54:42.

I will continue to give a substantial amount to charity. I

:54:43.:54:48.

always have done. I do not make a song and dance, but that is the

:54:49.:55:01.

answer. You mentioned it, though. I don't think people can accept the

:55:02.:55:05.

pay of politicians rising as fast as it has and I have said I will mop

:55:06.:55:09.

take the pay rise. I will not give it to charity, I will not take it,

:55:10.:55:14.

as I did not take the ?23,000 increase I was entitled to when I

:55:15.:55:19.

became leader of the party. Because in these times when people are

:55:20.:55:24.

facing cuts, when we are losing public services, libraries, when so

:55:25.:55:28.

many people are reliant on food banks, food banks in 2016, that is

:55:29.:55:34.

what people cannot accept, when politicians take huge pay increases.

:55:35.:55:41.

In the blue shirt. So, are any of you going to give it back? Well, she

:55:42.:55:49.

is not taking it. I am sorry. But you are all going to accept it? The

:55:50.:56:00.

problem with the pay of MPs now is that we took the correct decision to

:56:01.:56:04.

hand it to an independent body, to take MPs away from voting on their

:56:05.:56:08.

salary. It is an independent body to make the decision about salary and

:56:09.:56:14.

pensions for MPs. That removes any mechanism for an MP to say, I do not

:56:15.:56:19.

want that pay increase. There is not the mechanism in the way it is paid

:56:20.:56:24.

to say that. Leanne Wood said she refuses to take it. I have not

:56:25.:56:35.

flipped my home! Hang on, the First Minister of Wales says you get paid

:56:36.:56:41.

anyway. You cannot not be paid. After the next election, the money

:56:42.:56:45.

will be paid anyway. That is my understanding. I will not defend it.

:56:46.:56:52.

I am amazed that two assembly members do not know how they are

:56:53.:57:00.

paid! Well, I am paid in euros, as an MEP. So your pay is going up. As

:57:01.:57:08.

my foreign exchange trading expert on my right will explain, as the

:57:09.:57:13.

pound has fallen, my euro is in our buying more pounds. So my pay

:57:14.:57:22.

fluctuates. The question was, is it right. I think Parliament does not

:57:23.:57:27.

regulate the steel industry, does not regulate the banking industry,

:57:28.:57:31.

the fishing industry, I think we should cut the pay of MPs, unless we

:57:32.:57:35.

get Brexit, and then we should pay them more because they will be

:57:36.:57:41.

running the country. Let's be honest, they have to pretend to be

:57:42.:57:45.

awkward about it, but they are loving it.

:57:46.:57:45.

APPLAUSE Very briefly, in the fourth row. I

:57:46.:57:58.

think it is disgusting in a time of food banks and austerity that only

:57:59.:58:01.

one politician on the panel is willing to turn down the pay rise. I

:58:02.:58:07.

think everyone on the panel, apart from the comedian, should do. He is

:58:08.:58:20.

free, is the? -- is he? We have to stop. Our time is up and we can only

:58:21.:58:24.

do one hour. Someone was saying earlier that we should do two hours.

:58:25.:58:29.

That would be nice, but our time is up. We will be in

:58:30.:58:38.

Stratford-upon-Avon next week. The week after that we will be in Poole.

:58:39.:58:46.

If you would like to come to Stratford-upon-Avon, or to pool,

:58:47.:58:54.

applied to the website, or phone. If you are listening on radio, the

:58:55.:58:58.

debate continues until the early hours. Here, it comes to a halt.

:58:59.:59:02.

Thank you to our panel, to all of you who came to take part. From

:59:03.:59:07.

Llanelli, until next Thursday night, from Question Time, good night.

:59:08.:59:36.

For waking us up... CHRIS EVANS: Good morning, friends.

:59:37.:59:41.

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