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Tonight we're in Chelmsford, and this is Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:04 | |
Good evening and welcome to you, | 0:00:11 | 0:00:13 | |
whether you're watching or listening. | 0:00:13 | 0:00:14 | |
On our panel tonight, | 0:00:14 | 0:00:16 | |
the Conservative Education Secretary Nicky Morgan. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:19 | |
Labour's Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry. | 0:00:19 | 0:00:22 | |
The SNP Trade and Industry spokesperson at Westminster, | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:28 | |
Ukip's leader in the European Parliament, Roger Helmer. | 0:00:28 | 0:00:32 | |
The director of the think-tank the Institute Of Economic Affairs, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
Mark Littlewood. | 0:00:35 | 0:00:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
Thank you very much. Thank you very much. | 0:00:49 | 0:00:51 | |
Don't forget you have, at your service at home, | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
Facebook, text or Twitter, to comment on what's said here. | 0:00:53 | 0:00:57 | |
There are the details on the screen. | 0:00:57 | 0:00:58 | |
Let's have our first question from Graham Bartlett tonight, please. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:02 | |
Why is this Government cutting corporation tax | 0:01:02 | 0:01:04 | |
at the expense of the disabled? | 0:01:04 | 0:01:07 | |
The result of yesterday's Budget. | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
Nicky Morgan. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:11 | |
Well, we aren't doing that. | 0:01:11 | 0:01:13 | |
Let's push back on that immediately. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:15 | |
Yesterday's Budget was about putting the next generation first. | 0:01:15 | 0:01:19 | |
It was about continuing to repair the damage done to our economy | 0:01:19 | 0:01:23 | |
by the Labour Party when they were in government. | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
What we've found, in terms of corporation tax, for example, | 0:01:26 | 0:01:29 | |
is that if you lower the rates, actually, you get more money in. | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
And that's a good thing | 0:01:32 | 0:01:33 | |
for all the things we want to spend our money on, | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
like, in my case, obviously, schools and education. But... | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
Sorry, can I just check one thing? You say we're not doing that. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
You do agree with Mr Bartlett you are both cutting corporation tax | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
and making savings on the disabled? | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
No. Because I agree about the corporation tax. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
But we are not making savings on the disabled, | 0:01:50 | 0:01:52 | |
because we are, at the moment, consulting on making some changes | 0:01:52 | 0:01:55 | |
to the way that Personal Independence Payments... | 0:01:55 | 0:01:59 | |
What's the figure of £4.4 billion saving | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
from January 2017 to do with it | 0:02:02 | 0:02:03 | |
if it's not to do with making a saving? | 0:02:03 | 0:02:05 | |
No, no. It's about less, but overall | 0:02:05 | 0:02:07 | |
the amount of money we are spending on disability benefits | 0:02:07 | 0:02:10 | |
actually rises throughout the Parliament. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:12 | |
By the end of this Parliament, we will be spending £3 billion more | 0:02:12 | 0:02:15 | |
on Personal Independence Payments than we were in 2010, | 0:02:15 | 0:02:19 | |
or the equivalent benefit - Disability Living Allowance. | 0:02:19 | 0:02:22 | |
We spend £50 billion on disability benefits in this country. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
That's more than we're spending on, for example, police and defence. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:29 | |
It's more than the schools budget. | 0:02:29 | 0:02:31 | |
Sorry, I don't want to stop you again, | 0:02:31 | 0:02:32 | |
but the Institute For Fiscal Studies, | 0:02:32 | 0:02:34 | |
who we know are sort of great gurus on this, | 0:02:34 | 0:02:36 | |
say that 370,000 people could lose up to £3,500 a year | 0:02:36 | 0:02:41 | |
as a result of these measures you're taking. | 0:02:41 | 0:02:43 | |
Are you saying nobody's going to lose out? | 0:02:43 | 0:02:45 | |
No. What we are saying is | 0:02:45 | 0:02:46 | |
that this is about the way that people's needs are assessed | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
and making sure that the benefit is targeted | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
absolutely at the right people. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:53 | |
Personal Independence Payment, | 0:02:53 | 0:02:55 | |
I know as a constituency Member of Parliament, | 0:02:55 | 0:02:57 | |
having constituents who claim it, who go through the system, | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
is there to help people to live independently. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:03 | |
It's about making sure the money we are spending - | 0:03:03 | 0:03:05 | |
we are spending more, as I say, on disability benefits - | 0:03:05 | 0:03:08 | |
is going to the right people to help them with the right needs. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:10 | |
And I think, overall, you know, | 0:03:10 | 0:03:12 | |
we want there to be control of the welfare budget, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
that's something we've made very clear in our manifesto. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
We also made very clear we're not going to balance the books | 0:03:18 | 0:03:20 | |
on the back of the most vulnerable and the disabled. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:23 | |
And we absolutely still hold to that promise. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
Mr Bartlett, does that answer your question? Has she got it right? | 0:03:25 | 0:03:27 | |
No. They're targeting the disabled at the expense of the corporations, | 0:03:27 | 0:03:32 | |
who are getting away with it. | 0:03:32 | 0:03:34 | |
They should pay more money | 0:03:34 | 0:03:35 | |
so we can have better facilities for the disabled. | 0:03:35 | 0:03:37 | |
-But they will pay more money. -No. | 0:03:37 | 0:03:39 | |
I'll come back to you, Nicky. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:42 | |
Emily Thornberry. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:44 | |
Well, you're right, Graham. Of course they are. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:46 | |
They're targeting those who they think won't be able to fight back. | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
They're going to change the rules | 0:03:49 | 0:03:50 | |
so that if you need assistance in going to the loo, | 0:03:50 | 0:03:52 | |
assistance in getting dressed, | 0:03:52 | 0:03:54 | |
then they will look again | 0:03:54 | 0:03:55 | |
at how much Personal Independence Payments you can get. | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
And that's going to cost the disabled £67 a week. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
It is outrageous. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:03 | |
And this idea that, "Oh, we're cutting corporation tax | 0:04:03 | 0:04:06 | |
"in order to be able to gather in more money," | 0:04:06 | 0:04:08 | |
I mean, what kind of Alice In Wonderland world are we living in? | 0:04:08 | 0:04:10 | |
You know, are we saying, oh, we're cutting corporation tax | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
and so, therefore, people won't fiddle | 0:04:13 | 0:04:15 | |
their corporation tax any more? | 0:04:15 | 0:04:17 | |
Shouldn't we actually be making sure | 0:04:17 | 0:04:18 | |
the corporations and the very rich pay their taxes | 0:04:18 | 0:04:21 | |
and we make sure that we look after the most vulnerable in this society? | 0:04:21 | 0:04:24 | |
This Budget... | 0:04:24 | 0:04:25 | |
This Budget is about choices | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
and, frankly, I think that George Osborne | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
has shown his true colours here | 0:04:33 | 0:04:35 | |
by picking on those who can't fight back. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:37 | |
How much did you raise corporation tax by when you were in Government? | 0:04:37 | 0:04:43 | |
-Do you remember? -No, I don't remember. I don't remember. But... | 0:04:43 | 0:04:46 | |
-I don't think you did raise it, did you? -Yes, but they're cutting it. | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
I mean, what are you saying? | 0:04:49 | 0:04:50 | |
And at the moment, you know, what are we doing? | 0:04:50 | 0:04:52 | |
We're actually cutting corporation tax down | 0:04:52 | 0:04:54 | |
to the same rate as Google might be prepared to pay it? | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
What kind of...? I mean, this is not right. | 0:04:57 | 0:04:59 | |
All right. Mark Littlewood. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:00 | |
Well, listen, I want lower, simpler taxes. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:02 | |
I'm a low-tax kind of guy. | 0:05:02 | 0:05:04 | |
I think that helps the economy, it helps employment, | 0:05:04 | 0:05:07 | |
it helps economic growth. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:08 | |
And ultimately, if you can find the sweet spot, | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
it helps Government revenues as well. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:13 | |
We have previously had taxes that are so high | 0:05:13 | 0:05:15 | |
that you don't actually get as much revenue as you might off them. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
So I don't mind corporation tax going down. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
But I do mind this... | 0:05:20 | 0:05:22 | |
Politicians of all stripes have got to work out | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
how they're going to make savings. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:26 | |
We are still, after six years of so-called austerity, | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
having a Government that is living well beyond the means of taxpayers | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
to the tune of tens of billions of pounds a year. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
Most independent experts believe that George Osborne | 0:05:37 | 0:05:39 | |
only has a 50/50 chance, possibly worse, | 0:05:39 | 0:05:42 | |
of balancing the books by 2020. | 0:05:42 | 0:05:44 | |
So we've got to find some savings. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:46 | |
But...what the Conservatives have extremely unhelpfully done | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
is to ring-fence core constituencies, | 0:05:50 | 0:05:53 | |
largely of Conservative voters - | 0:05:53 | 0:05:55 | |
for example, affluent pensioners | 0:05:55 | 0:05:58 | |
still receiving their winter fuel allowance. | 0:05:58 | 0:06:00 | |
And if you ring-fence huge areas of Government spending, | 0:06:00 | 0:06:04 | |
then the axe falls unfairly. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:07 | |
And I would have thought | 0:06:07 | 0:06:08 | |
about the last thing you should be looking to cut | 0:06:08 | 0:06:10 | |
is assistance to the disabled. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:12 | |
But if you've ring-fenced so many other things, | 0:06:12 | 0:06:14 | |
2% on defence, 0.7% on international aid, | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
then you get these arbitrary cuts in spending. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
So let's get taxes down, | 0:06:20 | 0:06:22 | |
that's the right way to boost our economy, | 0:06:22 | 0:06:25 | |
but let's actually put all Government departments on the table | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
for efficiencies in savings. | 0:06:28 | 0:06:30 | |
That's the only way I think we will balance the books in 2020. | 0:06:30 | 0:06:34 | |
Nicky Morgan, just pick up briefly on what Mark said, would you? | 0:06:39 | 0:06:42 | |
That you've ring-fenced so many things | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
you end up going for areas that perhaps you shouldn't go for. | 0:06:45 | 0:06:49 | |
Well, we certainly have, obviously, set out protections, | 0:06:49 | 0:06:51 | |
but I think they are areas which are very important. So... | 0:06:51 | 0:06:55 | |
-Affluent pensioners? -..2% defence spending, | 0:06:55 | 0:06:57 | |
0.7% on international aid, | 0:06:57 | 0:07:01 | |
our health budget. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:02 | |
Affluent, middle-class pensioners - | 0:07:02 | 0:07:05 | |
they're protected and ring-fenced by your Government. | 0:07:05 | 0:07:07 | |
-No. -But it's true. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:09 | |
The Prime Minister has made a clear commitment to pensioners | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
about benefits which they rely on hugely and are very important. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:16 | |
Things like bus passes, for example, and Winter Fuel Payments. | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
But I think this is completely the wrong argument to be having. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
The point is, actually, over the course of the last six years, | 0:07:22 | 0:07:25 | |
we have brought things under control. | 0:07:25 | 0:07:27 | |
We are much closer to living within our means. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:29 | |
If you look at the Budget book, you can see we're much closer | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
to spending what we are raising in taxes. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:34 | |
We have got further to do, | 0:07:34 | 0:07:36 | |
and the Chancellor has been honest about that. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:38 | |
And we're dealing with the particular issue that arose. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
The person there in the fourth row. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
I'd like to know why there's two different rules - | 0:07:42 | 0:07:46 | |
one for corporations, and one for ordinary people. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:48 | |
And why the Conservatives are so happy | 0:07:48 | 0:07:51 | |
to try and appease the corporations by cutting taxes, | 0:07:51 | 0:07:56 | |
whereas individuals are being forced to pay their taxes, | 0:07:56 | 0:07:59 | |
the disabled are being forced | 0:07:59 | 0:08:01 | |
to reduce their standard of living, | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
yet corporations, we're so happy for them to reduce it, | 0:08:04 | 0:08:08 | |
when some companies are trying to avoid paying taxes altogether. | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
All right. And the woman over there on the far right, yes. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:15 | |
You said that you ring-fenced the spending on the healthcare, | 0:08:15 | 0:08:18 | |
but the NHS is on its knees. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
It can't meet its demands. It doesn't need ring-fencing. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:24 | |
It needs more money. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:26 | |
By cutting corporate taxing and ring-fencing the NHS, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
it's sort of like saying that you appreciate Google | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
more than you appreciate the NHS. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:34 | |
So why don't you invest? | 0:08:34 | 0:08:35 | |
And by cutting disability benefits, by cutting social services, | 0:08:35 | 0:08:39 | |
all you're doing is bringing the NHS down to its knees. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:41 | |
The NHS won't be around for another couple of years | 0:08:41 | 0:08:43 | |
-if you continue to do this. -Nicky, I'll come back to you, | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
but, Roger Helmer... Then I'll come back to you. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:49 | |
Well, Nicky has said that this is a Budget for the next generation. | 0:08:49 | 0:08:53 | |
And, of course, it's no such thing. | 0:08:53 | 0:08:55 | |
It's a Budget for the next three months. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:57 | |
Because George Osborne's job, and his boss' job, | 0:08:57 | 0:09:01 | |
depend upon them winning the referendum | 0:09:01 | 0:09:04 | |
and they are throwing everything, including the kitchen sink, | 0:09:04 | 0:09:07 | |
at that project. | 0:09:07 | 0:09:08 | |
Coming back to the specific question... | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
Hang on, what is it in this Budget | 0:09:10 | 0:09:11 | |
that will help win the referendum, in your view? | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
Well, there are tax reductions for large numbers of smaller businesses, | 0:09:14 | 0:09:18 | |
so there's quite a range of people there | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
who will be helped by the Budget and... | 0:09:21 | 0:09:23 | |
-And middle-income and richer people... -Yep. | 0:09:23 | 0:09:27 | |
..who the Conservatives are hoping to keep on side. | 0:09:27 | 0:09:29 | |
But the point I would like to make is that I agree with Mark | 0:09:29 | 0:09:33 | |
that lower corporation tax is not about making gifts to companies, | 0:09:33 | 0:09:38 | |
it's about making Britain an attractive place to invest, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
an attractive place to build factories, | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
create jobs and all those things. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:45 | |
Where I think George Osborne has got it dramatically wrong is, | 0:09:45 | 0:09:49 | |
as the questioners have been suggesting, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:51 | |
is to pick on the disabled. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
There are all sorts of groups in society | 0:09:54 | 0:09:55 | |
you might want to look again at the benefits they get, | 0:09:55 | 0:09:59 | |
but the disabled...? | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
And whereas for a single disabled person | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
the loss of £3,500 a year, for them, is an enormous amount of money, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:09 | |
according to the statistics I've seen, over the next five years, | 0:10:09 | 0:10:14 | |
the total saving for the Government | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
is of the order of £4.5 billion. | 0:10:16 | 0:10:19 | |
Well, if we leave the European Union after 23rd June, | 0:10:19 | 0:10:22 | |
we'll get that amount of money back in three months. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
OK. Tasmina. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:27 | |
George Osborne has failed on debt, on deficit, on growth, | 0:10:28 | 0:10:32 | |
on trade and exports. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
He's failed on everything | 0:10:34 | 0:10:35 | |
and he wants the disabled people of this country to pay for it | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
and it is not on. | 0:10:38 | 0:10:40 | |
Tory austerity... | 0:10:40 | 0:10:41 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:10:41 | 0:10:43 | |
Tory austerity - which isn't working - is a choice, not a necessity. | 0:10:43 | 0:10:47 | |
Penalising the disabled people by having £4.4 billion of cuts | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
on money they should be getting is a choice, not a necessity. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:57 | |
And to say this is for the next generation is highly questionable. | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
In fact, George Osborne mentioned the next generation, I think, | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
at least 18 times in his speech yesterday. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
What has he done for the next generation? | 0:11:06 | 0:11:08 | |
He doesn't want 16- and 17-year-olds to vote. | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
He's cut student maintenance allowances. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
He's cut allowances for student nurses. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
He's cut allowances for 18- to 21-year-olds who are unemployed | 0:11:15 | 0:11:19 | |
who need housing benefit. | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
That is not somebody who's planning for the next generation, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
that's someone who's planning for himself. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
And the time has come to call time on this Chancellor, | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
because the disabled people of this country cannot take any more. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:33 | |
The Resolution Foundation, having looked at all the figures, | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
have come to the conclusion, which is one with which I agree, | 0:11:37 | 0:11:40 | |
the top 10% of households in this country | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
will be 20 times better off | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
as a result of yesterday's Budget. | 0:11:45 | 0:11:48 | |
-Tasmina, do you...? -We have to look at ourselves as a country | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
and think, is this where we want to go? | 0:11:51 | 0:11:53 | |
Is this a reflection of ourselves? | 0:11:53 | 0:11:55 | |
Why are we not looking after the people who need our help the most? | 0:11:55 | 0:11:58 | |
Tasmina, in... | 0:11:58 | 0:11:59 | |
The Government has a majority of 12. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
We hear today that 20 Conservative MPs | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
have written to say that they're very concerned | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
about the disability changes. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:12 | |
Do you think that it'll get through, | 0:12:12 | 0:12:14 | |
or do you think it will be rejected by the House of Commons? | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
Because, presumably, the SNP will use its strength to vote against it. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:21 | |
Absolutely, and without a doubt. | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
And I'm very pleased to see | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
that there are voices across the House of Commons and in Government, | 0:12:25 | 0:12:28 | |
on the Government benches, who are voices of reason, | 0:12:28 | 0:12:30 | |
to see that this is absolutely not the right way forward. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
The Government faces another difficulty | 0:12:33 | 0:12:35 | |
and another defeat, potentially. | 0:12:35 | 0:12:37 | |
Nicky Morgan, do you think the Chancellor will lose the vote? | 0:12:37 | 0:12:39 | |
Well, first of all, we've got to finish the consultation | 0:12:39 | 0:12:42 | |
and the conversations that we're having with MPs, | 0:12:42 | 0:12:44 | |
but also with disability groups and others | 0:12:44 | 0:12:47 | |
before we even bring any legislation forward. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:50 | |
Can I just pick up the point that the lady in the audience made | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
about the taxes for businesses and the taxes for individuals? | 0:12:53 | 0:12:57 | |
Sorry, can I just come back to that other thing? | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
Are you saying this is just for consultation, | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
this wasn't an announcement on saving money? | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
It was in the Budget speech. | 0:13:03 | 0:13:04 | |
No, no, it wasn't in the Budget speech, actually. | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
What are we talking about, then? | 0:13:07 | 0:13:09 | |
Just something you were half-thinking about? | 0:13:09 | 0:13:11 | |
No, no, there's been an independent review that has happened. | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
Proposals have been put forward | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
and we are continuing the conversation about this, | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
to make sure, as I said in my original answer, | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
that the Personal Independence Payment | 0:13:20 | 0:13:22 | |
is targeted at the right people. | 0:13:22 | 0:13:24 | |
-Is that how you see it? Not in the Budget? -No, I don't see it. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:26 | |
I remember Cameron saying that, on Personal Independence plans, | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
he said, "This is our measure and we will enhance and safeguard it." | 0:13:30 | 0:13:33 | |
That's what he said before the general election, | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
-and he has gone back on his word. -Hang on a second. But... | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
-No, no, that is what he said before the election. -Yes, absolutely. | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
The Prime Minister didn't deliver the Budget yesterday, | 0:13:41 | 0:13:43 | |
the Chancellor did. This is a measure... | 0:13:43 | 0:13:45 | |
Oh, they don't talk to each other? | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
This is a measure that is still being discussed in Government. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
And, as I say, it's about making sure that the welfare spending... | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
So he didn't say, "Look, George, I promised not to do anything | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
"to personal independence plans. | 0:13:57 | 0:13:59 | |
"In fact, I promised to enhance and safeguard it, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:01 | |
"so please don't touch it"? He didn't tell them that? | 0:14:01 | 0:14:03 | |
If the entire Budget's up for discussion, | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
I'm very interested in having this discussion now, | 0:14:05 | 0:14:07 | |
because that certainly wasn't how it was played. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
And indeed, Graham Ellis, one of your own members, | 0:14:10 | 0:14:12 | |
who was on the executive of the disabled group | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
in the Conservative Party, actually resigned as a result of that. | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
There are serious issues surrounding this. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:19 | |
He said he couldn't possibly fathom being a member of a party | 0:14:19 | 0:14:21 | |
that was going to have such a terrible impact | 0:14:21 | 0:14:24 | |
-on the disabled people. -That's why we're still discussing it. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:26 | |
Disabled people in this country | 0:14:26 | 0:14:28 | |
have committed suicide as a result of some of the cuts | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
that have been brought forward by this Government. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
-It is unforgiveable. -The woman here in the front. | 0:14:33 | 0:14:35 | |
The lady said about the suicide... | 0:14:36 | 0:14:38 | |
With the disabled people, | 0:14:38 | 0:14:40 | |
with them having their money cut, | 0:14:40 | 0:14:42 | |
surely there will be more distress? | 0:14:42 | 0:14:44 | |
Because people can't get anywhere, they get depressed even more, | 0:14:44 | 0:14:48 | |
it'll cost them more, | 0:14:48 | 0:14:50 | |
and then, as you say, they commit suicide. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:52 | |
So, you know, they're making it worse for them. | 0:14:52 | 0:14:55 | |
-People's mental health issues, absolutely. -Hold on, Tasmina. | 0:14:55 | 0:14:58 | |
Just clarify this, | 0:14:58 | 0:14:59 | |
and then we must just talk about the corporation-tax part of this. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:02 | |
This £4.4 billion saving by 2021... | 0:15:02 | 0:15:06 | |
on disability - | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
you're saying that is not a policy? That just doesn't exist? | 0:15:08 | 0:15:11 | |
It's a fantasy? | 0:15:11 | 0:15:13 | |
No, no, it is something that has been put forward. | 0:15:13 | 0:15:15 | |
There has been a review, there has been a suggestion. | 0:15:15 | 0:15:18 | |
We are not ready to bring the legislation forward. | 0:15:18 | 0:15:20 | |
Can I just ask you, then, how does it square | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
with what the Prime Minister said before the last election? | 0:15:22 | 0:15:25 | |
"We haven't created this to undermine it. | 0:15:25 | 0:15:27 | |
"We want to enhance and safeguard it. | 0:15:27 | 0:15:29 | |
"The most disabled should always be protected." | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:33 | |
There's been a suggestion | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
of a change in the way the personal independence needs are assessed. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:39 | |
And that's something we all continue to discuss. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:42 | |
So is it all up for debate? Can we argue other things, too? | 0:15:42 | 0:15:44 | |
Are there other things that...? | 0:15:44 | 0:15:46 | |
I'm sure you'll argue lots of things, Emily. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:48 | |
The Budget is merely a suggestion, is it? | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
Can I just answer the question? | 0:15:50 | 0:15:51 | |
Hold on. All right. One at a time. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:53 | |
Corporation tax and personal tax - I think this is really important. | 0:15:53 | 0:15:56 | |
I do think that if you bring down taxes on companies - | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
we want them to set up and we want them to invest in this country, | 0:15:58 | 0:16:01 | |
we want them to employ people. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:02 | |
But I should also just point out | 0:16:02 | 0:16:04 | |
that yesterday the Chancellor also said | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
that the income-tax personal allowance | 0:16:06 | 0:16:08 | |
is going to go up again in April, and it will go up again next year. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
31 million people are going to be paying less tax - | 0:16:11 | 0:16:14 | |
individuals, as a result of changes introduced under the last government | 0:16:14 | 0:16:18 | |
and in the current government. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:19 | |
We're also introducing the National Living Wage, | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
so that people's wages will be going up, too. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:24 | |
So to say that we are somehow ignoring individuals | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
and focusing on business is not right. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:29 | |
But, of course, we need people to come to this country to invest, | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
because they're the ones that are going to employ people. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
What about the employment support allowance cut by £30 per week? | 0:16:35 | 0:16:39 | |
-What about that? -Can we just clarify one thing? | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
Because it does sound, from what you're saying - | 0:16:41 | 0:16:43 | |
I don't know whether I'm misinterpreting this, Nicky... | 0:16:43 | 0:16:46 | |
You've got 20 Conservative MPs opposed to this policy, | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
written to the Chancellor - | 0:16:49 | 0:16:50 | |
it sounds as if you may be saying that this £4.4 billion saving | 0:16:50 | 0:16:55 | |
isn't actually now going to happen. | 0:16:55 | 0:16:57 | |
On reflection, the opposition to it is so great | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
you may have to reconsider. | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
Wouldn't the Chancellor have even more difficulty balancing the books? | 0:17:02 | 0:17:05 | |
Then let me just hear the answer to the question. | 0:17:05 | 0:17:07 | |
Well, we are absolutely still engaged in a discussion on that | 0:17:07 | 0:17:10 | |
with both Members of Parliament, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:12 | |
as I say, with disability groups and campaigners, very much. | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
That's political speak for, "We aren't going to do it." | 0:17:15 | 0:17:19 | |
This is clearly an issue about... | 0:17:19 | 0:17:20 | |
This is another £4.4 billion that has to be found from somewhere else. | 0:17:20 | 0:17:23 | |
Hang on a second. People can't have it both ways. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:25 | |
They can't, on the one hand say, "You can't make this change," | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
and then say, "You're not going to." | 0:17:28 | 0:17:29 | |
-That's not what we said. -We have a track record, as a government... | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
Tasmina, you must let her just finish her sentences. Like I must! | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
We have a track record, as a government, of making savings. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
They're difficult decisions to make, as ministers, | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
but they are the right thing to do | 0:17:41 | 0:17:42 | |
for exactly the reason, when we stated this discussion, | 0:17:42 | 0:17:44 | |
that we want to live within our means as a government. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:47 | |
That's what we ask people to do in their lives. | 0:17:47 | 0:17:49 | |
-It's what we should do as a government. -The woman in pink there. | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
Yes. If we've decided to cut corporation tax | 0:17:52 | 0:17:54 | |
to make the UK an interesting place and a good place to invest in, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:59 | |
hasn't David Cameron shot himself in the foot | 0:17:59 | 0:18:01 | |
by actually bringing along an EU referendum | 0:18:01 | 0:18:03 | |
where, actually, we could be outside Europe now | 0:18:03 | 0:18:06 | |
and less attractive to business? | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
Emily Thornberry, can you answer that? | 0:18:08 | 0:18:09 | |
I mean, I agree with you. Of course I do. But, you know, I... | 0:18:09 | 0:18:12 | |
You mean you agree with her that cutting corporation tax | 0:18:12 | 0:18:15 | |
is a good idea to encourage business? That's what's she said. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
No, what she said was, if we're going to cut corporation tax | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
in order to make the UK more attractive, | 0:18:20 | 0:18:22 | |
then surely an even bigger threat is leaving the EU? | 0:18:22 | 0:18:24 | |
And I agree with that. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:25 | |
I think that leaving the EU is a threat to inward investment, | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
and at a time when we're not getting | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
enough inward investment into this country - | 0:18:30 | 0:18:32 | |
is one of the many problems that we have. | 0:18:32 | 0:18:34 | |
You know, the borrowing has gone up by 35 billion since November. | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
You know, the Chancellor was saying one sum | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
and then a few months later it's £35 billion more. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:44 | |
And it seems like we've got another £4 billion to add on top, | 0:18:44 | 0:18:46 | |
given the U-turn we've heard tonight. | 0:18:46 | 0:18:49 | |
But we have a Budget that doesn't actually address the real issues. | 0:18:49 | 0:18:52 | |
The real issues are people's wages are not going up | 0:18:52 | 0:18:54 | |
at the same rate as prices, | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
we have a housing crisis and we're not getting enough houses built, | 0:18:56 | 0:19:00 | |
we're not getting enough investment into our country. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:02 | |
You know, our growth is slowing down, | 0:19:02 | 0:19:04 | |
our tax burden, as a whole, is going up, | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
and very rich people and big businesses | 0:19:07 | 0:19:09 | |
are not paying their taxes. | 0:19:09 | 0:19:10 | |
And what would Labour do about all this? | 0:19:10 | 0:19:12 | |
The first thing... I mean, I can talk all night | 0:19:12 | 0:19:15 | |
about what we would do instead. So, let me not. | 0:19:15 | 0:19:17 | |
-One thing we would do... -On the issues that the Chancellor... | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
You wouldn't have cut taxes? | 0:19:20 | 0:19:22 | |
One of the things that I would do is I would invest in homes. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
-I would invest in more houses. -We are. | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
Nicky's going to tell you that's what she's going to do. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:31 | |
If we were to be doing something in order to save money later, | 0:19:31 | 0:19:33 | |
how about building some homes for the younger generation? | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
Where are our kids going to live if we don't build them homes? | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
And if we want to cut the budget, | 0:19:40 | 0:19:42 | |
if you want to cut the amount of money we pay out on benefits, | 0:19:42 | 0:19:45 | |
how about building some homes so that rents are no longer so high | 0:19:45 | 0:19:48 | |
so we don't have to pay out so much money in housing benefit? | 0:19:48 | 0:19:51 | |
-Let's address the corporation tax. -Let's stick with corporation tax. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:54 | |
The big question I would have for George Osborne, if he were here... | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
He's not in the audience anywhere, is he? No. | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
What is the point of, on the one hand saying, | 0:19:59 | 0:20:03 | |
"We are going to be really decisive | 0:20:03 | 0:20:05 | |
"and we are going to lower corporation tax," | 0:20:05 | 0:20:07 | |
and on the other hand say, | 0:20:07 | 0:20:09 | |
"Yes, but we're withdrawing an awful lot of tax allowances and so on, | 0:20:09 | 0:20:13 | |
"so that, in effect, you drive them up again"? | 0:20:13 | 0:20:17 | |
And I think that's a rather curious situation. | 0:20:17 | 0:20:20 | |
It's not my job to come to the defence of George Osborne, | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
but I understand that he has at least made some moves | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
to prevent large companies from exporting tax. | 0:20:26 | 0:20:29 | |
And that is absolutely right and he should have done it long ago. | 0:20:29 | 0:20:32 | |
Just stick with tax, Mark, and then we'll move on. | 0:20:32 | 0:20:35 | |
On corporation tax, do you agree with Roger | 0:20:35 | 0:20:36 | |
that he's given with one hand and taken away with the other? | 0:20:36 | 0:20:39 | |
He has somewhat, yes. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:40 | |
Because his new target is to reduce corporation tax to 17%, | 0:20:40 | 0:20:44 | |
but to make it harder to offset your previous losses | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
against your current profits. | 0:20:47 | 0:20:48 | |
So that's the allowance he's got rid of. | 0:20:48 | 0:20:50 | |
I can understand why people get furious about corporation tax, | 0:20:50 | 0:20:53 | |
because I can see, on the face of it, | 0:20:53 | 0:20:55 | |
that it looks like there's a big cheat going on. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
But we're going to have to modernise our tax system. | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
This was a tax that was brought in in the 1930s - | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
a much simpler time. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:04 | |
When you are now dealing with companies | 0:21:04 | 0:21:06 | |
that have an algorithm in Los Angeles, | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
their website hosted in Holland, | 0:21:09 | 0:21:11 | |
the intellectual property registered in Singapore, | 0:21:11 | 0:21:15 | |
it's very difficult to work out precisely | 0:21:15 | 0:21:17 | |
where the economic activity is taking place. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:19 | |
Back in simpler times | 0:21:19 | 0:21:20 | |
when we just went to the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker | 0:21:20 | 0:21:23 | |
on the high street, | 0:21:23 | 0:21:24 | |
it was much easier to work out where economic activity was taking place. | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
Do you agree with the woman in pink when she says | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
we need to get corporation tax down to get business into Britain? | 0:21:29 | 0:21:33 | |
Yeah, I would abolish corporation tax altogether. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:36 | |
I want to encourage all companies to come here, invest, | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
employ people who, by the way, | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
then pay income tax and VAT when they go out to the shops. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:45 | |
And the problem is, I think, if you don't abolish it, | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
these huge internet multinational companies | 0:21:48 | 0:21:50 | |
have different IP registered all over the place, | 0:21:50 | 0:21:53 | |
perfectly rationally, intelligently, | 0:21:53 | 0:21:54 | |
and it's the little guy with the little corner shop | 0:21:54 | 0:21:56 | |
who actually gets penalised. | 0:21:56 | 0:21:58 | |
It's the smaller companies that get penalised. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:00 | |
Isn't that another argument for the EU? | 0:22:00 | 0:22:02 | |
I mean, isn't it about time | 0:22:02 | 0:22:03 | |
the countries of the EU actually stuck together | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
and said to these large companies, "You must pay your taxes, | 0:22:05 | 0:22:08 | |
"and we, the EU, will not let you get away | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
"with not paying your taxes any more"? | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
I would prefer our taxes to be set | 0:22:13 | 0:22:15 | |
by our democratically elected parliament | 0:22:15 | 0:22:18 | |
rather than the European Commission. | 0:22:18 | 0:22:19 | |
But if we were able to club together | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
and make sure that they did it properly? | 0:22:21 | 0:22:23 | |
The European Union has proved itself completely incapable | 0:22:23 | 0:22:26 | |
of dealing with issues like that. | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
It is fantasy to think that they help. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:29 | |
OK, we'll come to the European Union maybe in a moment. | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
It will be no surprise. Yes, you. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
Is cutting corporation tax a last-ditch attempt | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
to keep the big businesses, like HSBC, in our country, | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
because we're scared that we will actually leave the EU? | 0:22:40 | 0:22:43 | |
-Is that what you think it is? -Yes. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:46 | |
I'm asking, is it? | 0:22:46 | 0:22:48 | |
It's that I thought it could well be. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:50 | |
Are they trying to appease companies like HSBC | 0:22:50 | 0:22:53 | |
to keep their big, huge headquarters here, | 0:22:53 | 0:22:56 | |
because they're worried they'll actually leave if we leave the EU? | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
Nicky Morgan, briefly, is that the argument? | 0:22:59 | 0:23:01 | |
No, I think it is about making sure that companies know | 0:23:01 | 0:23:04 | |
that Britain is a good place for them to invest and to employ. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
I mean, companies like HSBC and others, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:09 | |
they employ a lot of people in this country | 0:23:09 | 0:23:12 | |
who, as Mark says, then pay their personal taxes. | 0:23:12 | 0:23:15 | |
Emily and I are not going to agree on very much tonight, | 0:23:15 | 0:23:18 | |
but I think the one thing we can agree on | 0:23:18 | 0:23:20 | |
is that, actually, we should stay in a reformed EU. | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
Just to answer the lady's question... | 0:23:23 | 0:23:25 | |
There isn't a reformed EU to stay in! | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
Which reformed EU? | 0:23:27 | 0:23:29 | |
Nicky, please. Which reformed EU? There is no reformed EU. | 0:23:29 | 0:23:32 | |
There is a reformed EU. | 0:23:32 | 0:23:33 | |
I'm not a seer about the way this programme will go, | 0:23:33 | 0:23:36 | |
but there just might be a question on Europe. | 0:23:36 | 0:23:39 | |
So let's take another aspect to headline from the Budget. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:44 | |
But before I do, let me just say about Question Time's plans. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:47 | |
We're off the air for Easter. | 0:23:47 | 0:23:49 | |
If you want to come to Question Time, | 0:23:49 | 0:23:53 | |
we're in Ilford, curiously - | 0:23:53 | 0:23:56 | |
not far from Chelmsford - | 0:23:56 | 0:23:58 | |
on April 7th. | 0:23:58 | 0:23:59 | |
Ilford. We call it East London, | 0:23:59 | 0:24:01 | |
to separate it from Chelmsford, Essex. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:03 | |
And then in Doncaster the week after that. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
That's April 7th and then 14th April 14th. | 0:24:06 | 0:24:09 | |
And you can apply. The details are on the screen now, | 0:24:09 | 0:24:11 | |
the television and the website. | 0:24:11 | 0:24:13 | |
But I will give them at the end in more detail. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:15 | |
Just so you know, cos you'll be extremely welcome. | 0:24:15 | 0:24:18 | |
Jennie Stanton, you're very welcome, too. Can we have your question? | 0:24:18 | 0:24:21 | |
The sugar tax will add about 25p per bottle of soft drink. | 0:24:21 | 0:24:26 | |
Will that really deter parents from buying it? | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
Mark Littlewood. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:31 | |
This is a disastrous, pernicious, | 0:24:31 | 0:24:34 | |
unfair, regressive tax | 0:24:34 | 0:24:36 | |
that will do absolutely nothing to help public health. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
Absolutely nothing. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:41 | |
The economic evidence is pretty clear on this point. | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
Wherever these things have been tried, | 0:24:44 | 0:24:46 | |
whether it's been on sugar or sugary drinks, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
in, say, Mexico, when it's been on a fat tax, | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
tried in Denmark, it actually gets you virtually zero of the way | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
towards improving public health. | 0:24:56 | 0:24:58 | |
-Why? -Well, because for example, people will trade down brands. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:02 | |
So rather than buying perhaps a premium brand of cola, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:07 | |
you will simply switch to buying the local brand | 0:25:07 | 0:25:09 | |
or a less-recognised brand, | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
quite possibly consuming still more sugar. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:13 | |
So people switch their shopping habits. | 0:25:13 | 0:25:16 | |
And what really appalled me about seeing this in the Budget | 0:25:16 | 0:25:20 | |
was politicians on both sides of the House, | 0:25:20 | 0:25:22 | |
Conservative and Labour, sort of congratulating themselves | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
that they have brought in a new taxation | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
which is going to hit you in the pocket. | 0:25:29 | 0:25:30 | |
It's all very well for Nicky to say your income tax is going down, | 0:25:30 | 0:25:33 | |
but your shopping bill is going to go up | 0:25:33 | 0:25:36 | |
on the grounds that this will help public health. It won't. | 0:25:36 | 0:25:39 | |
And I was particularly upset | 0:25:39 | 0:25:40 | |
to see the Labour Party warmly applauding it. | 0:25:40 | 0:25:43 | |
This is a tax that is regressive and hits the poorest hardest. | 0:25:43 | 0:25:48 | |
To actually see the Labour opposition | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
almost warmly applauding George Osborne for bringing it in | 0:25:51 | 0:25:53 | |
I thought was absolutely horrific. | 0:25:53 | 0:25:55 | |
So this is a bad tax, it's going to the poor, | 0:25:55 | 0:25:57 | |
and it will do nothing to improve the health of our children | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
or, indeed, the adult population. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:02 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
You, sir. | 0:26:05 | 0:26:06 | |
So what can be done to reduce the cost of healthy food? | 0:26:06 | 0:26:10 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:26:11 | 0:26:15 | |
Well, everybody always looks at the food side of it. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
I think the real problem is exercise, actually. | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
Calories, generally going down. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:24 | |
Sugar consumption is generally going down year-on-year in Britain. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:28 | |
If there is an obesity epidemic, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
it is not being caused by sugar consumption going up at all. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:33 | |
It's caused by us having a sedentary lifestyle. | 0:26:33 | 0:26:35 | |
So don't play football on your PlayStation, | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
go and play it in the park, is what we've got to tell our kids. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:39 | |
Man in the yellow shirt, yes. Go on. | 0:26:39 | 0:26:42 | |
I have to disagree with the man who just spoke, | 0:26:42 | 0:26:44 | |
because we tax alcoholic drinks because they are unhealthy. | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
Why not tax sugary drinks? Because they're definitely unhealthy. | 0:26:47 | 0:26:51 | |
Tasmina. | 0:26:51 | 0:26:52 | |
George Osborne would have absolutely loved | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
all of the headlines about this Budget to be about the sugar tax, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:59 | |
but they weren't, and events took over from it. | 0:26:59 | 0:27:02 | |
However, I would say, in terms of public health, | 0:27:02 | 0:27:05 | |
whilst I don't believe it will stop people from drinking sugary drinks, | 0:27:05 | 0:27:09 | |
not least children, | 0:27:09 | 0:27:11 | |
it will raise awareness, in terms of health issues, | 0:27:11 | 0:27:13 | |
which is an important effect of it. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:16 | |
We need to do something about obesity in this country. | 0:27:16 | 0:27:20 | |
Is this going to be the answer? Absolutely not. | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
Can it be part of an answer? Yes, it can, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
in terms of how we encourage the people of this country | 0:27:25 | 0:27:28 | |
to try and eat better. | 0:27:28 | 0:27:30 | |
And one of the ways we are doing that in Scotland | 0:27:30 | 0:27:33 | |
is by free school meals, | 0:27:33 | 0:27:34 | |
which we have for primary-one-to-three children, | 0:27:34 | 0:27:37 | |
where they're guaranteed a healthy meal every single day. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
-And that's now being extended in the next year. -So... | 0:27:40 | 0:27:42 | |
Please, it's worthwhile listening. I'm talking about children. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
We're actually talking about the sugar tax, soft drinks, | 0:27:45 | 0:27:47 | |
not about Scotland's policy on meals for children. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:51 | |
Why not raise awareness of it? | 0:27:51 | 0:27:54 | |
Don't raise a tax to raise awareness of it, | 0:27:54 | 0:27:56 | |
just raise awareness of it. | 0:27:56 | 0:27:57 | |
It's a bizarre way to set your tax policy. | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
But I will finish my answer, because it's important. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:03 | |
We were talking about health in the main. | 0:28:03 | 0:28:05 | |
And in the main, Nicola Sturgeon has also confirmed that, | 0:28:05 | 0:28:10 | |
in the next parliament, we'll be also ensuring | 0:28:10 | 0:28:12 | |
that children that go to nursery get a meal a day. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:15 | |
And what we need to be looking... | 0:28:15 | 0:28:16 | |
I am sorry, look, it's all very well to sit here | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
and talk about Scottish policy on children. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
What is your answer to Jennie Stanton's question? | 0:28:22 | 0:28:25 | |
Is it going to make a difference? | 0:28:25 | 0:28:26 | |
I'm saying it will, in terms of raising awareness. | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
That was the first part of my answer. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:31 | |
Well, then, that's fine. That's all we need. | 0:28:31 | 0:28:33 | |
Roger Helmer. | 0:28:33 | 0:28:34 | |
I'm just amazed by Tasmina. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:37 | |
-She is prepared... -It has to be part of a health initiative. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:40 | |
Hang on, the chair has just given... | 0:28:40 | 0:28:42 | |
You are prepared to apply a regressive tax | 0:28:42 | 0:28:46 | |
which affects lower-income, poorer people disproportionately, | 0:28:46 | 0:28:51 | |
merely so that you can have the satisfaction of raising awareness. | 0:28:51 | 0:28:53 | |
I think that is tragic, coming from a left-wing... | 0:28:53 | 0:28:56 | |
That's not what I said at all. | 0:28:56 | 0:28:57 | |
Well, that's exactly what you said. | 0:28:57 | 0:28:59 | |
Word for word, that is what you said. | 0:28:59 | 0:29:01 | |
Nicky Morgan, you come to the defence of it. | 0:29:01 | 0:29:03 | |
I do think it's the right thing to do. | 0:29:03 | 0:29:05 | |
And I have to say, I've had my mind converted on that, | 0:29:05 | 0:29:08 | |
because I think behaviour does need to change, | 0:29:08 | 0:29:10 | |
and I think that there is an issue about wider health and exercise | 0:29:10 | 0:29:14 | |
and everything else. | 0:29:14 | 0:29:16 | |
-But when I looked at the figures... -What converted you? | 0:29:16 | 0:29:18 | |
Was it the Prime Minister changed his mind, | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
-you thought you'd better stay alongside him? -Absolutely! | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
It hasn't worked in other countries. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:29 | |
Of course I always support my Prime Minister. Of course I do. But... | 0:29:29 | 0:29:31 | |
-Whichever way he goes, you'll be with him? -No, no, no. | 0:29:31 | 0:29:34 | |
Look, we debated this, I think, when I was on a previous Question Time. | 0:29:34 | 0:29:38 | |
It was one of the warm-up questions. | 0:29:38 | 0:29:40 | |
But, you know, the biggest single source of sugar intake | 0:29:40 | 0:29:42 | |
in young people's diets is sugary drinks. | 0:29:42 | 0:29:45 | |
And when you've got one in ten young people | 0:29:45 | 0:29:47 | |
starting primary school obese, | 0:29:47 | 0:29:48 | |
and it rises to two in ten leaving primary school obese, | 0:29:48 | 0:29:51 | |
there is clearly an issue in this country. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:53 | |
So what about latte macchiatos, and all those things I don't understand, | 0:29:53 | 0:29:57 | |
that are absolutely full of sugar? | 0:29:57 | 0:29:58 | |
The medical evidence is that, actually, | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
in spite of the sugar in those sort of drinks, | 0:30:01 | 0:30:03 | |
actually, the milk and presumably the calcium and everything else | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
is still beneficial to people. | 0:30:06 | 0:30:08 | |
-But let me say to you one other thing. -Not if it's full of sugar. | 0:30:08 | 0:30:11 | |
Well, look, Roger, there is medical evidence. | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
And that's how this policy has been developed. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:16 | |
Oh, come on. That's an excuse. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:18 | |
-Hang on. -Why have you frozen cider duty and beer duty, | 0:30:18 | 0:30:21 | |
which are considerably worse for you than a cup of lemonade? | 0:30:21 | 0:30:24 | |
So you're going to increase... | 0:30:24 | 0:30:25 | |
We're talking about young people's health. | 0:30:25 | 0:30:27 | |
They're not drinking cider and beer, one assumes. | 0:30:27 | 0:30:30 | |
So you want an 18-year-old to switch | 0:30:30 | 0:30:31 | |
from drinking Coca-Cola and start drinking cider? | 0:30:31 | 0:30:34 | |
That's the economic incentive you've set up in your Budget. Ridiculous. | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
The other thing... | 0:30:37 | 0:30:39 | |
One at a time. One at a time. | 0:30:39 | 0:30:40 | |
The other thing is the drinks industry has got two years | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
in which to reduce the sugar content of its drinks, | 0:30:43 | 0:30:47 | |
in which case there won't be a tax on those drinks. | 0:30:47 | 0:30:49 | |
And we've seen that some companies - | 0:30:49 | 0:30:51 | |
because we're on the BBC, I won't mention names - | 0:30:51 | 0:30:53 | |
but there are some companies that have already done that | 0:30:53 | 0:30:55 | |
and that behaviour has changed. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:57 | |
And, therefore, those drinks are healthier for young people. | 0:30:57 | 0:30:59 | |
It is perfectly possible to do it. | 0:30:59 | 0:31:01 | |
So what will George do for his £520 million | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
if, in fact, people are going to change their habits | 0:31:04 | 0:31:06 | |
and stop consuming sweet drinks? | 0:31:06 | 0:31:08 | |
Well, that's something that, obviously, | 0:31:08 | 0:31:10 | |
we will look at as part of the Government. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:12 | |
-Another part of the Budget that's a suggestion. -No. | 0:31:12 | 0:31:14 | |
The woman up there. And then I'll come to you, Emily. | 0:31:14 | 0:31:17 | |
This tax might never actually be paid | 0:31:17 | 0:31:19 | |
if recipes are changed and sugar is dropped. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
So that money should be going into sports in primary schools - | 0:31:22 | 0:31:25 | |
As Mark said, really, exercise is key to reducing obesity. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:30 | |
So if that tax isn't raised, | 0:31:30 | 0:31:32 | |
then the sport in school won't increase. | 0:31:32 | 0:31:34 | |
And that will be three years in the future, so what happens now? | 0:31:34 | 0:31:36 | |
Emily Thornberry. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:38 | |
I mean, I think, again, it just shows, I think, | 0:31:38 | 0:31:40 | |
that this Government is just making it up as it goes along. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:42 | |
I mean, in 2012, after the Olympics, | 0:31:42 | 0:31:45 | |
there was supposed to be the sports premium. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:47 | |
And yet, at that stage, the Government cut back | 0:31:47 | 0:31:50 | |
on the two hours a week that young people were supposed to spend | 0:31:50 | 0:31:53 | |
doing physical education. | 0:31:53 | 0:31:54 | |
And now we're saying, well, we're going to have a sugar tax | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
and the money from that sugar tax is now going to pay for PE in schools. | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
I mean, I support a sugar tax as part of an overall strategy, | 0:32:01 | 0:32:06 | |
as part of an obesity strategy. | 0:32:06 | 0:32:07 | |
The government keeps talking about | 0:32:07 | 0:32:09 | |
being about to have an obesity strategy. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:11 | |
He's put it off, I think, five times. | 0:32:11 | 0:32:13 | |
The Prime Minister is supposed to be the person who's leading on it. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:16 | |
We still await this obesity strategy. | 0:32:16 | 0:32:18 | |
It does seem to me that part of it has to be getting kids more active. | 0:32:18 | 0:32:22 | |
The difficulty is, we are in a changing society. | 0:32:22 | 0:32:26 | |
And to be quite honest, | 0:32:26 | 0:32:27 | |
we all know that at home, kids are tending not to go out as much, | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
they tend to be in front of computers much more, | 0:32:30 | 0:32:33 | |
which makes the job at school being that much more important | 0:32:33 | 0:32:36 | |
to make sure that kids get active and actually enjoy being active. | 0:32:36 | 0:32:39 | |
And that's a really important part of it. | 0:32:39 | 0:32:42 | |
But as part of the sugar tax, we also, I think, | 0:32:42 | 0:32:44 | |
have to look at advertising. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:46 | |
I think we have to look at the fact that you can have cartoons, | 0:32:46 | 0:32:48 | |
you can have personalities, endorsing, you know, sugary drinks. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:52 | |
And as the guy said in the middle here, | 0:32:52 | 0:32:54 | |
you know, who's there to promote carrots? | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
You know, you don't get the same sort of publicity. | 0:32:56 | 0:33:00 | |
It does seem to me... | 0:33:00 | 0:33:01 | |
Can I suggest parents are perhaps there to promote carrots? | 0:33:01 | 0:33:04 | |
Of course, parents. But do you know what? | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
There are poor children being born today | 0:33:06 | 0:33:08 | |
who will not live as long as their parents. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
We have to do something about the obesity in our society. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:16 | |
We must tackle it. We can't just keep talking about it. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:18 | |
OK. Let us talk about it a bit more with our audience. | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
The woman there first of all. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
If the policy is successful | 0:33:23 | 0:33:25 | |
and manufacturers convert their sugar into, say, | 0:33:25 | 0:33:28 | |
saccharin or aspartame, what would the impact be? | 0:33:28 | 0:33:32 | |
-Because I thought they were meant to be more unhealthy? -As bad. -Yes. | 0:33:32 | 0:33:35 | |
And you, sir, in the yellow waistcoat. | 0:33:35 | 0:33:37 | |
Instead of the sugar tax, isn't it time that this, | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
all of us, in fact, swallowed the bitter pill | 0:33:40 | 0:33:43 | |
of a dedicated tax to help fund the NHS? | 0:33:43 | 0:33:45 | |
All right. | 0:33:45 | 0:33:47 | |
And the woman in the spectacles there at the back. | 0:33:47 | 0:33:50 | |
For me, the sugar tax is a real red herring. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:53 | |
I think a far more worthwhile policy would be helping children | 0:33:53 | 0:33:56 | |
to learn how to cook and teaching them more about nutrition. | 0:33:56 | 0:33:58 | |
Because people are getting fatter | 0:33:58 | 0:34:00 | |
because they don't have the time or the inclination to cook properly. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:03 | |
OK, and you up there. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:05 | |
The person up there at the back. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
Surely it's about time to educate parents | 0:34:09 | 0:34:11 | |
not to give children sugary drinks. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
They ought to start promoting giving them tap water, | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
which is a lot cheaper. | 0:34:17 | 0:34:19 | |
So it doesn't matter if you come from a poor background, | 0:34:19 | 0:34:22 | |
or sort of what income you have, | 0:34:22 | 0:34:24 | |
-water is cheap. -OK. | 0:34:24 | 0:34:26 | |
And you, sir, on the gangway here. Yes. | 0:34:26 | 0:34:29 | |
Yes, the issue is consumption, not production. | 0:34:29 | 0:34:32 | |
And if the government was sincere about the health of the children, | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
they would actually legislate | 0:34:35 | 0:34:37 | |
to limit the amount of sugar in the drinks in the first place | 0:34:37 | 0:34:39 | |
and not just apply a tax that won't affect very many people. | 0:34:39 | 0:34:42 | |
Good points. Can we go on? | 0:34:42 | 0:34:44 | |
Let's go on to another question, then. | 0:34:44 | 0:34:45 | |
Amber Finch, let's have your question, please. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
Will forcing schools to become academies raise standards, | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
or will it just be the same school with same problems just rebranded? | 0:34:51 | 0:34:54 | |
Very interesting. We've had a lot of questions about academy schools. | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
And the policy is that all schools, within six years, | 0:34:57 | 0:35:01 | |
are going to be academy schools. | 0:35:01 | 0:35:03 | |
Will it raise standards, | 0:35:03 | 0:35:05 | |
or will they just be the same schools with the same old problems? | 0:35:05 | 0:35:08 | |
Emily Thornberry, you kick off on this. | 0:35:08 | 0:35:11 | |
-I think that the way... -It was Labour policy, | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
it should be said, wasn't it, to start with? | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
Labour's policy was to introduce academies | 0:35:15 | 0:35:17 | |
where a school was failing. | 0:35:17 | 0:35:19 | |
And, as part of a larger package, was to make a school an academy | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
as an attempt to try to raise standards. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
What the government is doing | 0:35:25 | 0:35:27 | |
is they have introduced, on the basis of dogma, | 0:35:27 | 0:35:29 | |
they have decided that all schools should be academies, | 0:35:29 | 0:35:31 | |
whether they want to be academies or not. | 0:35:31 | 0:35:34 | |
And most primary schools do not want to be academies. | 0:35:34 | 0:35:36 | |
Eight out of ten primary schools are either good or outstanding. | 0:35:36 | 0:35:40 | |
You know, so why do they need to be made academies? | 0:35:40 | 0:35:43 | |
Why do they need to be made academies? | 0:35:43 | 0:35:44 | |
What do they lose by being an academy? | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
Just for the sake of people who are not up to speed on this. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
So if you're an academy, | 0:35:49 | 0:35:51 | |
it basically means you're a stand-alone school. | 0:35:51 | 0:35:53 | |
So the head teacher, who's having problems with not enough staff, | 0:35:53 | 0:35:56 | |
with 8% cuts to their budget, you know, a whole range of problems, | 0:35:56 | 0:36:00 | |
problems about attainment, all kind of crises, | 0:36:00 | 0:36:02 | |
the new Sats, which the government have introduced | 0:36:02 | 0:36:05 | |
without giving any proper details, | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
the new GCSEs, the new A-levels... | 0:36:07 | 0:36:09 | |
All these different things, that head teachers have to deal with. | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
Instead, they have to stop doing all of that, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:14 | |
they have to go off and find some trustees, | 0:36:14 | 0:36:15 | |
they have to set themselves up as an independent school. | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
If they're a small primary school in a village, | 0:36:18 | 0:36:20 | |
where they've got, let's say, 120 kids, | 0:36:20 | 0:36:22 | |
they're not going to be allowed to be an academy by themselves. | 0:36:22 | 0:36:25 | |
So they're going to have to find themselves another school | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
to become an academy with, | 0:36:28 | 0:36:29 | |
or join one of these dreadful academy chains, | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
which the Chief Inspector has said | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
some of them are worse than some of the worst local authorities. | 0:36:33 | 0:36:36 | |
You know, it's not just me, Nicky, who criticises the academies | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
and the way in which you're insisting | 0:36:39 | 0:36:41 | |
all schools become academies. | 0:36:41 | 0:36:43 | |
If you listen to the spokesperson | 0:36:43 | 0:36:44 | |
from the Local Government Association, who's a Tory, | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
I mean, he is quite astounded | 0:36:47 | 0:36:48 | |
that you're insisting on all primary schools, | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
all schools becoming academies. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
He says it defies reason | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
that councils are being portrayed as barriers to improvement, | 0:36:55 | 0:36:58 | |
given that 82% of council-maintained schools are good or outstanding. | 0:36:58 | 0:37:04 | |
So what they're doing is, | 0:37:04 | 0:37:05 | |
instead of actually dealing with the problems that they have, | 0:37:05 | 0:37:08 | |
and they have a number of problems - | 0:37:08 | 0:37:10 | |
not enough maths teachers, not enough physics teachers, | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
the number of pupils going up, | 0:37:13 | 0:37:14 | |
the amount of money going into the budgets going down... | 0:37:14 | 0:37:17 | |
Instead of addressing any of that, they decide to simply follow dogma | 0:37:17 | 0:37:21 | |
and make all schools - force all schools to - become academies. | 0:37:21 | 0:37:24 | |
-It's not thought through. -All right. | 0:37:24 | 0:37:26 | |
Just a reminder that it was... | 0:37:26 | 0:37:28 | |
It was, nevertheless, Labour that started the ball rolling. | 0:37:30 | 0:37:35 | |
But only for failed schools. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:36 | |
This is like Lansley. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:38 | |
Why would it do better for failed schools? | 0:37:38 | 0:37:41 | |
Because when you had tried everything else, in the end, | 0:37:41 | 0:37:44 | |
what you would do is allow a school to be essentially reborn. | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
You would put in support from elsewhere, | 0:37:48 | 0:37:50 | |
you would put in additional money, | 0:37:50 | 0:37:52 | |
you would quite often put in... | 0:37:52 | 0:37:54 | |
You would help rebuild the schools. | 0:37:54 | 0:37:56 | |
And then you would put focus on that school | 0:37:56 | 0:37:58 | |
and it would be given a great deal of support and assistance. | 0:37:58 | 0:38:01 | |
Instead, what this government's doing | 0:38:01 | 0:38:03 | |
is allowing all the school, forcing all the schools | 0:38:03 | 0:38:06 | |
to become independent, without that sort of support. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:08 | |
Nicky Morgan. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:09 | |
Yes, academisation does absolutely raise standards. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:13 | |
We've got 1.4 million more children in schools rated good or outstanding | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
than we had in 2010. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:19 | |
And what we see is that, actually, having a sponsor, | 0:38:19 | 0:38:22 | |
having somebody else running the school than a local authority, | 0:38:22 | 0:38:27 | |
absolutely does drive school improvement. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:29 | |
-There is no evidence. -Hold on. You had a long go. | 0:38:29 | 0:38:31 | |
-Let her answer. -There is plenty. | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
-There is no evidence. -Emily, do let her just answer. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:35 | |
There is plenty of evidence. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:37 | |
Results in primary sponsored academies, | 0:38:37 | 0:38:39 | |
they're improving faster than local-authority schools. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:41 | |
We see that in secondary converter academies, | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
their proportion of GCSEs being passed | 0:38:43 | 0:38:45 | |
is higher than in local-authority schools. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
-You're using jargon about converter schools. -I'm sorry. I'm sorry. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:50 | |
Just to clarify. | 0:38:50 | 0:38:52 | |
-If a school is made to become an academy... -Yep. | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
..does it have to look for a sponsor | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
or can it just find a group of trustees and they do it? | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
They can do it both ways. So if a school wants to convert... | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
And what we've seen is many schools become academies on their own | 0:39:03 | 0:39:06 | |
in the course of the last six years, | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
because they're strong enough to do that. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:10 | |
But if there is a problem, if a school has been failing, | 0:39:10 | 0:39:12 | |
or if its pupils are not making the progress that they should be, | 0:39:12 | 0:39:16 | |
then we will find them a sponsor. | 0:39:16 | 0:39:18 | |
And supposing a head teacher is happy | 0:39:18 | 0:39:20 | |
with his or her own arrangements within a council, | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
why are you forcing them to become academies? | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
Well, because we know... | 0:39:25 | 0:39:26 | |
What we're seeing in the system is more collaboration, | 0:39:26 | 0:39:28 | |
more schools working together. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:30 | |
And the ultimate thing is, | 0:39:30 | 0:39:32 | |
we believe the people who are best capable of running schools | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
are the heads, the teachers and the governors. | 0:39:35 | 0:39:38 | |
And if they say they don't want to be academies? | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
Well, we think... We do want all schools to become academies. | 0:39:42 | 0:39:45 | |
I mean, that's the direction of travel. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
We don't have the capacity | 0:39:47 | 0:39:48 | |
to run two different systems in this country - | 0:39:48 | 0:39:50 | |
some local-authority, some academy schools. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:52 | |
Academy schools are hugely successful. There are... | 0:39:52 | 0:39:55 | |
And some are not. | 0:39:55 | 0:39:57 | |
Well, where they aren't, Emily, | 0:39:57 | 0:39:58 | |
actually, we will intervene much more swiftly. | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
You have a school in your own constituency | 0:40:01 | 0:40:03 | |
which languished in local-authority control in special measures | 0:40:03 | 0:40:06 | |
for six years. | 0:40:06 | 0:40:07 | |
That will not happen with the academy system, | 0:40:07 | 0:40:10 | |
because we will intervene much more swiftly to turn them around. | 0:40:10 | 0:40:12 | |
It's a universal policy, in other words. Roger Helmer. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
I don't pretend to know a lot about education. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
But I do know a lot about managing large groups of people, | 0:40:17 | 0:40:20 | |
because that's what I used to do before I got into politics. | 0:40:20 | 0:40:22 | |
You may think you've got the greatest idea in the world | 0:40:22 | 0:40:25 | |
for academies. | 0:40:25 | 0:40:26 | |
And there are similar comments that can be made | 0:40:26 | 0:40:28 | |
about the health service and the junior doctors. | 0:40:28 | 0:40:31 | |
Isn't it part of your job | 0:40:31 | 0:40:32 | |
to sell your ideas to people instead of just saying, | 0:40:32 | 0:40:35 | |
"That's what you've got to do"? | 0:40:35 | 0:40:37 | |
To get them on board, so they're enthusiastic? | 0:40:37 | 0:40:40 | |
But we see that. People are adopting the academisation, | 0:40:40 | 0:40:43 | |
people are converting voluntarily. | 0:40:43 | 0:40:45 | |
And if you go to schools up and down the country, | 0:40:45 | 0:40:47 | |
as I do, day in and day out, | 0:40:47 | 0:40:49 | |
you see fantastic heads and teachers running their schools, | 0:40:49 | 0:40:53 | |
working with other schools, | 0:40:53 | 0:40:54 | |
making a difference to the young people in their charge. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:57 | |
That is what I want to see. | 0:40:57 | 0:40:58 | |
And at the end of the day, Roger, as Secretary of State, | 0:40:58 | 0:41:01 | |
people do expect me to set out my vision for the education system, | 0:41:01 | 0:41:05 | |
to lead and to work with others. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:07 | |
That's exactly what our white paper today is all about. | 0:41:07 | 0:41:10 | |
It's answering the questions that we started in the last government | 0:41:10 | 0:41:12 | |
and saying, "This is where we are headed. | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
"We are all going towards this place." | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
All right, let's hear.. | 0:41:17 | 0:41:18 | |
But what is absolutely clear is | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
you are insisting on people choosing the route that you've set | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
and not having a choice whether to become academies or not. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
We are reaching a tipping point, as I say, | 0:41:26 | 0:41:29 | |
and, actually, we want to run one system | 0:41:29 | 0:41:30 | |
where the money goes directly to the schools, | 0:41:30 | 0:41:32 | |
-and it's the schools that manage themselves. -I think we've got that. | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
Let us hear from the audience. You, sir. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:38 | |
I'm sorry, this is just not going to solve the crisis | 0:41:38 | 0:41:40 | |
in recruitment, in retention in schools, | 0:41:40 | 0:41:42 | |
which is getting worse and worse | 0:41:42 | 0:41:44 | |
and will not change unless you make significant steps | 0:41:44 | 0:41:46 | |
improving the workload and the pay of teachers. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
All right. And the woman there. | 0:41:50 | 0:41:52 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:41:52 | 0:41:55 | |
By turning schools into academies, | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
are we passing off the government - | 0:41:59 | 0:42:00 | |
using that to pass off responsibility for failing schools | 0:42:00 | 0:42:03 | |
-to the local authorities and the trustees of the schools? -No. | 0:42:03 | 0:42:07 | |
-Is that what you think? -I do, yes. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:09 | |
-Do you want to answer? -No. Absolutely not. | 0:42:09 | 0:42:12 | |
What we are saying is the Department for Education, | 0:42:12 | 0:42:14 | |
me as Secretary of State - | 0:42:14 | 0:42:16 | |
we have these eight regional school commissioners around the country - | 0:42:16 | 0:42:19 | |
absolutely get involved in schools that are failing. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
The whole purpose of the Education Adoption Act that we just passed, | 0:42:22 | 0:42:25 | |
that got Royal Assent yesterday, | 0:42:25 | 0:42:26 | |
is about identifying schools, both maintained and academies, | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
that are failing, or are coasting, and actually intervening swiftly. | 0:42:29 | 0:42:32 | |
Can I just come back to the point | 0:42:32 | 0:42:34 | |
the gentleman made about teacher recruitment? | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
Because it is very, very important. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:38 | |
The biggest thing that improves the life chance of young people | 0:42:38 | 0:42:40 | |
is the quality of the teaching | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
and having enough great teachers in the classroom. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
And if you look at the white paper that we published today, | 0:42:45 | 0:42:47 | |
the whole thing is about setting out | 0:42:47 | 0:42:49 | |
and supporting teachers as professionals. | 0:42:49 | 0:42:51 | |
It's about making sure that they are absolutely in control, | 0:42:51 | 0:42:54 | |
that we've got the best teachers in our classrooms, | 0:42:54 | 0:42:57 | |
and they're supported by their head teachers. | 0:42:57 | 0:42:59 | |
Is anyone here - you've got experience of this around here - | 0:42:59 | 0:43:03 | |
in favour of the academy schools? | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
You are, sir. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:07 | |
You are. | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
You've spoken already. You've spoken already, too! | 0:43:09 | 0:43:13 | |
Anybody else who has not spoken already? | 0:43:13 | 0:43:15 | |
Well, OK, go on, then, quickly, you in pink there. | 0:43:15 | 0:43:17 | |
-And then I'll come to you. -It's moving forward. | 0:43:17 | 0:43:20 | |
And it's taking schools to the next level. | 0:43:20 | 0:43:23 | |
It's investment. | 0:43:23 | 0:43:25 | |
And I think the Conservatives are doing a great job | 0:43:25 | 0:43:27 | |
-in making that move. -Tasmina. | 0:43:27 | 0:43:30 | |
Of course, education is devolved to Scotland. | 0:43:30 | 0:43:34 | |
But we're always very keen to learn from good practice | 0:43:34 | 0:43:37 | |
for our systems up north as well. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:39 | |
But in terms of these academies, | 0:43:39 | 0:43:41 | |
I can't help but think, | 0:43:41 | 0:43:42 | |
because they are being imposed upon rather than through choice, | 0:43:42 | 0:43:46 | |
that we may well be creeping towards a system where, | 0:43:46 | 0:43:48 | |
depending on where you live and who is running your school, | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
will depend on the type of education that you get. | 0:43:51 | 0:43:54 | |
And, you know, education for our young people | 0:43:54 | 0:43:57 | |
must be based on absolutely their ability to learn, | 0:43:57 | 0:44:00 | |
not their ability to pay or where they might live. | 0:44:00 | 0:44:02 | |
But, Nicky, you can't help but find yourself in a situation | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
where, if every school has to be an academy, | 0:44:05 | 0:44:08 | |
whether they like it or not, | 0:44:08 | 0:44:10 | |
you will have some schools who are more willing to do it than others. | 0:44:10 | 0:44:13 | |
You will have different terms and conditions in different schools. | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
You will have an issue in terms of recruitment | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
and in terms of the breadth of pupils | 0:44:18 | 0:44:20 | |
who are going to those schools. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:21 | |
Then, why wouldn't you get that with local-authority control? | 0:44:21 | 0:44:25 | |
-Pardon? -Why don't you get that with local-authority control? | 0:44:25 | 0:44:28 | |
Well, with local authority control you can be guaranteed there is, | 0:44:28 | 0:44:31 | |
in terms of a comprehensive education system, David, | 0:44:31 | 0:44:33 | |
you can be guaranteed that everyone can benefit from the same education. | 0:44:33 | 0:44:38 | |
What can happen in certain areas, | 0:44:38 | 0:44:39 | |
particularly if people don't want to do it... | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
Because, remember, this is not through choice. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:44 | |
You can apply for free schools if you wish in Scotland through choice | 0:44:44 | 0:44:47 | |
and people make applications, | 0:44:47 | 0:44:48 | |
but that's because the parents and the head teachers want it to happen. | 0:44:48 | 0:44:52 | |
You have a different set of circumstances | 0:44:52 | 0:44:54 | |
where that is imposed upon you. | 0:44:54 | 0:44:56 | |
And what we need to make sure that we're protecting national pay, | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
we're protecting national terms and conditions. | 0:45:00 | 0:45:02 | |
What we don't have is different terms and conditions | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
across different schools, because it's the children that will suffer. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
OK, I think you've made the point. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:10 | |
Mark Littlewood. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:11 | |
The more I hear these sort of debates, | 0:45:11 | 0:45:14 | |
the more I become more and more persuaded | 0:45:14 | 0:45:16 | |
that we've got to get politicians and bureaucrats | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
out of our education system altogether. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:45:21 | 0:45:23 | |
I am, therefore, sympathetic | 0:45:28 | 0:45:30 | |
to the direction of travel that Nicky is going in. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
I'm sympathetic to it. I don't necessarily sign up to all of it. | 0:45:33 | 0:45:36 | |
But I'm sympathetic to it. | 0:45:36 | 0:45:38 | |
Because I don't really want local-education authorities, | 0:45:38 | 0:45:41 | |
politicians, meddling in it. | 0:45:41 | 0:45:42 | |
The one thing I hope we don't swap out | 0:45:42 | 0:45:45 | |
is if we remove the local bureaucracy, | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
I hope that's not replaced by central diktats being issued | 0:45:48 | 0:45:52 | |
by the Secretary of State for Education, | 0:45:52 | 0:45:54 | |
however charming and well-intentioned she may be. | 0:45:54 | 0:45:57 | |
We have got to let teachers teach again. | 0:45:57 | 0:46:00 | |
We are having political arguments that lead to endless form filling, | 0:46:00 | 0:46:04 | |
tick boxes, incredibly prescriptive national curriculums | 0:46:04 | 0:46:09 | |
about exactly what each pupil needs to learn when. | 0:46:09 | 0:46:12 | |
Let's put our faith back in the teaching profession. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:16 | |
Let them design the curriculum. | 0:46:16 | 0:46:18 | |
Let them work out what happens in the classroom. | 0:46:18 | 0:46:20 | |
More power to the teachers, less to the politicians, | 0:46:20 | 0:46:23 | |
and we'll have a much better education system in the UK. | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
All right. One more point from you, sir. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:29 | |
The point made here... | 0:46:29 | 0:46:30 | |
When you came to being Education Secretary in 2014, | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
you said - September, at the Conservative conference - | 0:46:34 | 0:46:38 | |
you said you were going to reduce the teachers' workload. | 0:46:38 | 0:46:42 | |
What happened? | 0:46:42 | 0:46:43 | |
We have taken steps absolutely to do that. | 0:46:43 | 0:46:45 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:46:45 | 0:46:47 | |
What about the extra hour, Nicky? | 0:46:47 | 0:46:49 | |
Is that going to help teacher recruitment? | 0:46:49 | 0:46:51 | |
It doesn't have to be run by teachers. | 0:46:51 | 0:46:53 | |
The whole point about extracurricular activities | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
is that other people can come in and run the sport. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:58 | |
Very briefly. | 0:46:58 | 0:46:59 | |
We have absolutely made a commitment of not introducing changes | 0:46:59 | 0:47:02 | |
midway through the year, lightening the Ofsted load, we've more say. | 0:47:02 | 0:47:05 | |
There are three working groups looking at the things | 0:47:05 | 0:47:07 | |
that teachers most complain about - | 0:47:07 | 0:47:09 | |
marking, data collection and lesson-planning. | 0:47:09 | 0:47:12 | |
and I'll have more to say about that next week. | 0:47:12 | 0:47:14 | |
Can I just raise a point? | 0:47:14 | 0:47:15 | |
There are some parts of the country where all these schools, | 0:47:15 | 0:47:19 | |
in an area where you have grave concerns about education standards, | 0:47:19 | 0:47:22 | |
they are all academies. | 0:47:22 | 0:47:24 | |
And you have nothing, no you have answer | 0:47:24 | 0:47:26 | |
to how to raise the standards there. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:28 | |
If you're only way of raising standards, as you say, | 0:47:28 | 0:47:31 | |
is by turning a school into an academy, | 0:47:31 | 0:47:33 | |
you know, you don't have the answers. | 0:47:33 | 0:47:35 | |
You need to read the white paper, | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
because that is exactly what we cover in the white paper. | 0:47:37 | 0:47:39 | |
I'm a bit weird - I have. | 0:47:39 | 0:47:41 | |
And what you've got is, in order to be able | 0:47:41 | 0:47:43 | |
to get more teachers into the profession, | 0:47:43 | 0:47:45 | |
you're setting up a website. | 0:47:45 | 0:47:46 | |
You're setting up a website. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:48 | |
We have had four years | 0:47:48 | 0:47:49 | |
with more teachers leaving the profession | 0:47:49 | 0:47:51 | |
than we've had coming into the profession. | 0:47:51 | 0:47:53 | |
You have a crisis, | 0:47:53 | 0:47:54 | |
in terms of recruitment and retention of teachers. | 0:47:54 | 0:47:57 | |
Yes, you may have more teachers than ever, | 0:47:57 | 0:47:59 | |
but you have more pupils than ever. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
We have these ginormous great schools, | 0:48:02 | 0:48:04 | |
we have, you know, so many children in classes of more than 40, | 0:48:04 | 0:48:07 | |
and you're not addressing that. | 0:48:07 | 0:48:08 | |
It is becoming like Andrew Lansley | 0:48:08 | 0:48:10 | |
and the health service all over again. | 0:48:10 | 0:48:13 | |
Nicky, I'll give you a sentence or two. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:15 | |
We have a challenge in teacher recruitment, | 0:48:15 | 0:48:18 | |
but particularly because there are certain subjects... | 0:48:18 | 0:48:21 | |
Maths, physics... | 0:48:21 | 0:48:23 | |
Please, don't interrupt each other. Please. Or we'll never get anywhere. | 0:48:23 | 0:48:26 | |
Just let each other speak. | 0:48:26 | 0:48:28 | |
Fewer people took them and studied them to A-level and beyond | 0:48:28 | 0:48:31 | |
under the last Labour government | 0:48:31 | 0:48:33 | |
and, therefore, that has led to issues around teacher recruitment. | 0:48:33 | 0:48:36 | |
Doctor Catherine Gouveia, please. | 0:48:36 | 0:48:39 | |
I think it may be our last question. Let's have it. | 0:48:39 | 0:48:42 | |
Thank you. I'm a junior doctor, | 0:48:42 | 0:48:44 | |
my husband works in financial markets, | 0:48:44 | 0:48:46 | |
yet between us we find it difficult | 0:48:46 | 0:48:48 | |
to evaluate the pros and cons | 0:48:48 | 0:48:50 | |
of making a voting decision in the EU referendum. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:53 | |
Have the public been well prepared to vote in this referendum? | 0:48:53 | 0:48:57 | |
Right. When you say, "I'm a doctor and my husband works in finance," | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
you mean that... we ought to understand it? | 0:49:00 | 0:49:02 | |
Yes. | 0:49:02 | 0:49:04 | |
That's saying a lot! | 0:49:04 | 0:49:05 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:49:05 | 0:49:08 | |
Mark Littlewood, the question is an important one, | 0:49:08 | 0:49:10 | |
and we get it all the time. | 0:49:10 | 0:49:11 | |
The pros and cons of the EU referendum. | 0:49:11 | 0:49:13 | |
Have the public been prepared to vote? | 0:49:13 | 0:49:15 | |
Do they know enough? Has enough been said? Is it clear enough? | 0:49:15 | 0:49:18 | |
Your go. Fire away. | 0:49:18 | 0:49:20 | |
By June 23rd, I'm pretty sure you and your partner | 0:49:20 | 0:49:23 | |
will be heartily sick of another 99 days | 0:49:23 | 0:49:27 | |
of people fighting about the European Union. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:29 | |
Look, I think this is going to be a major decision | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
that is going to have an impact on the UK | 0:49:32 | 0:49:36 | |
for potentially generations to come. | 0:49:36 | 0:49:38 | |
I don't have an issue | 0:49:38 | 0:49:39 | |
in which I have a different opinion to my partner, | 0:49:39 | 0:49:42 | |
I have an issue in which I have a different opinion | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
to be the one I had 20 years ago. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:47 | |
You were a federalist? | 0:49:47 | 0:49:49 | |
Yeah, I was a former keen pro-European. | 0:49:49 | 0:49:53 | |
I love the idea of a European Union | 0:49:53 | 0:49:56 | |
that is liberal, democratic, | 0:49:56 | 0:49:59 | |
a brotherhood of man, light-touch regulation. | 0:49:59 | 0:50:03 | |
And if that European Union does exist | 0:50:03 | 0:50:05 | |
somewhere in a parallel universe, | 0:50:05 | 0:50:07 | |
then that's great for that parallel universe. | 0:50:07 | 0:50:09 | |
Oh, it's reformed. Nicky's already told us. | 0:50:09 | 0:50:11 | |
But it doesn't exist here. | 0:50:11 | 0:50:13 | |
So you're going to have to, just as you do in a general election, | 0:50:13 | 0:50:16 | |
or I think this decision is more important, however, | 0:50:16 | 0:50:18 | |
you're going to have to listen to all sides of the debate | 0:50:18 | 0:50:20 | |
and you're going to have to decide who you trust | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
and what, in your heart and your head, feels right. | 0:50:23 | 0:50:26 | |
And I think it is absolutely right and proper | 0:50:26 | 0:50:29 | |
that this decision is being batted to you, the electorate, | 0:50:29 | 0:50:32 | |
not the politicians on this panel. | 0:50:32 | 0:50:35 | |
-What, you that it was right to have a referendum? -Yes. | 0:50:35 | 0:50:38 | |
And it wasn't just to save the Conservative Party | 0:50:38 | 0:50:41 | |
from its divisions? | 0:50:41 | 0:50:42 | |
I'm sure it was to save the Conservative Party | 0:50:42 | 0:50:44 | |
from its divisions. | 0:50:44 | 0:50:45 | |
But even if that was the trigger for it, I'm delighted that we've got it. | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
Finally, at last, after decades of arguing about it, | 0:50:49 | 0:50:53 | |
you, the people, are actually going to decide | 0:50:53 | 0:50:55 | |
on the future of our nation. | 0:50:55 | 0:50:56 | |
-And your vote - decided? -I will vote to leave. | 0:50:56 | 0:50:58 | |
You're going to vote to leave. All right. | 0:50:58 | 0:51:00 | |
And even if you find it boring and technical | 0:51:00 | 0:51:02 | |
and there's mudslinging involved, | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
I just implore you, do your best | 0:51:04 | 0:51:06 | |
to try and make the best judgment you can. | 0:51:06 | 0:51:08 | |
Because what you do on June 23rd | 0:51:08 | 0:51:09 | |
will have an impact for a very long time to come. | 0:51:09 | 0:51:12 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:51:12 | 0:51:14 | |
And it's been noticeable, Emily Thornberry, | 0:51:14 | 0:51:17 | |
that the Prime Minister and the people around him | 0:51:17 | 0:51:19 | |
who want to remain have been vociferous, | 0:51:19 | 0:51:22 | |
and Labour's been strangely silent about this whole issue. | 0:51:22 | 0:51:26 | |
Not speaking out. Why is that? | 0:51:26 | 0:51:28 | |
I don't think we're not speaking out. | 0:51:28 | 0:51:31 | |
-We never hear you. -Well, all right. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:32 | |
You know, well, let's talk a bit louder. | 0:51:32 | 0:51:35 | |
Labour is in favour of remaining in the European Union | 0:51:35 | 0:51:38 | |
because, over and above everything else, | 0:51:38 | 0:51:41 | |
we need to make sure that people have jobs, | 0:51:41 | 0:51:44 | |
and we need to make sure | 0:51:44 | 0:51:45 | |
that we have investment coming into this country. | 0:51:45 | 0:51:47 | |
And we believe, at a time when there may be cold winds | 0:51:47 | 0:51:50 | |
blowing through the economies of the world in the near future, | 0:51:50 | 0:51:53 | |
we must stay in the European Union. | 0:51:53 | 0:51:55 | |
It is to the advantage of all of us. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
Do you believe the ground has been well prepared? | 0:51:58 | 0:52:00 | |
And that's why I asked you the question about Labour. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:02 | |
Do you think the issues have been spelled out | 0:52:02 | 0:52:04 | |
in a way that somebody with a busy life, a professional life, | 0:52:04 | 0:52:07 | |
listening to the arguments, can make up their minds? | 0:52:07 | 0:52:10 | |
I think that jobs and investment are two very important reasons. | 0:52:10 | 0:52:15 | |
I think that if we were to go off as an island | 0:52:15 | 0:52:17 | |
off into the Atlantic all by ourselves, | 0:52:17 | 0:52:20 | |
I think we would be putting ourselves at risk. | 0:52:20 | 0:52:22 | |
I think the world is getting to be a smaller place | 0:52:22 | 0:52:25 | |
and I think we've talked about it tonight - | 0:52:25 | 0:52:27 | |
you know, some of these multinational companies | 0:52:27 | 0:52:29 | |
do not care about national borders any more. | 0:52:29 | 0:52:31 | |
We need to be able to remain within the European Union | 0:52:31 | 0:52:34 | |
so that we are big enough to stand up to these companies. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:37 | |
And also there are issues such as climate change | 0:52:37 | 0:52:40 | |
which do not recognise national borders. | 0:52:40 | 0:52:42 | |
We need to be able to work within a bigger union. | 0:52:42 | 0:52:45 | |
That's why we are safer. | 0:52:45 | 0:52:47 | |
I think we are in one of the safer corners of the world | 0:52:47 | 0:52:49 | |
and we should keep it that way. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:51 | |
Do you think the arguments have been well put? | 0:52:51 | 0:52:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:52:53 | 0:52:55 | |
I think the arguments have been very much focused | 0:52:55 | 0:52:57 | |
towards the economic side, but what about the cultural side of things? | 0:52:57 | 0:53:00 | |
So I think that we as a nation, and in Chelmsford in particular, | 0:53:00 | 0:53:03 | |
I feel like we're very naive about other cultures. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:07 | |
And surely by leaving the EU | 0:53:07 | 0:53:08 | |
we would become more naive | 0:53:08 | 0:53:10 | |
because we wouldn't learn about the other cultures in Europe. | 0:53:10 | 0:53:12 | |
All right. And at the very back there, | 0:53:12 | 0:53:15 | |
do you think that we are being well prepared for this vote? | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
I don't think we're being very well prepared at all. | 0:53:18 | 0:53:20 | |
I haven't heard - purely because I'm 17 - | 0:53:20 | 0:53:24 | |
I haven't heard much about how it's going to impact | 0:53:24 | 0:53:27 | |
the next generation at all. | 0:53:27 | 0:53:29 | |
All right. And you, sir, up there on the gangway. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
I'm a little bit more concerned that the politicians don't know | 0:53:33 | 0:53:37 | |
whether we should stay in the EU or leave the EU. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
And I'm a little bit concerned that having a Prime Minister | 0:53:40 | 0:53:44 | |
that's so set on staying in the EU, when we have the chance to leave it, | 0:53:44 | 0:53:48 | |
will create more economic uncertainty if we do vote to leave. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
All right. Roger Helmer. | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
Well, what we get is, we get people, as in this audience, | 0:53:53 | 0:53:56 | |
saying, "Tell us the facts." | 0:53:56 | 0:53:58 | |
Now, what we're looking at is the future, | 0:53:58 | 0:54:00 | |
two years, five years ahead, | 0:54:00 | 0:54:02 | |
and nobody can be sure what is going to be happening | 0:54:02 | 0:54:05 | |
two years or five years ahead. | 0:54:05 | 0:54:07 | |
Although we have a pretty clear idea of the sort of trade terms - | 0:54:07 | 0:54:11 | |
it can't be worse than WTO trade rules - | 0:54:11 | 0:54:13 | |
and we will get a free trade deal which will be better. | 0:54:13 | 0:54:16 | |
But the question I would put to those who want to stay in, | 0:54:16 | 0:54:19 | |
what is the European Union going to look like in five years' time? | 0:54:19 | 0:54:23 | |
In five years' time, those million migrants in Germany, | 0:54:23 | 0:54:26 | |
if they've stayed in Germany, | 0:54:26 | 0:54:28 | |
will have a right, under free movement, | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
to come to any other member states, including to Britain. | 0:54:30 | 0:54:34 | |
And right as we speak, | 0:54:36 | 0:54:37 | |
there is this European Council going on today and tomorrow, | 0:54:37 | 0:54:41 | |
where they're discussing this absolutely bizarre deal with Turkey, | 0:54:41 | 0:54:44 | |
where Turkey takes one person back from Greece | 0:54:44 | 0:54:47 | |
in exchange for Greece taking one migrant from Turkey. | 0:54:47 | 0:54:51 | |
And we're paying 6 billion euros for the privilege. | 0:54:51 | 0:54:55 | |
And we are fast tracking visa-free access to the Schengen area. | 0:54:55 | 0:54:59 | |
And we've agreed to fast-track Turkish membership. | 0:54:59 | 0:55:03 | |
Turkish membership is 75 million Turks. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:07 | |
Now, I'm not going to suggest for a moment | 0:55:07 | 0:55:09 | |
that 75 million Turks are coming to Britain. | 0:55:09 | 0:55:11 | |
But it is quite reasonable to suppose that several million | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
might move to Western Europe in the interests of... | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
All right. The woman there. | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
Three in. Yes. | 0:55:21 | 0:55:23 | |
I think it's amazing | 0:55:25 | 0:55:26 | |
how inarticulate the politicians are with this. | 0:55:26 | 0:55:29 | |
I think if you were to ask people why to stay or why to go, | 0:55:29 | 0:55:33 | |
you would have better conversations in the pub | 0:55:33 | 0:55:35 | |
than you would hear in the House of Commons, | 0:55:35 | 0:55:38 | |
and ones which people would understand. | 0:55:38 | 0:55:40 | |
I work in marketing | 0:55:40 | 0:55:41 | |
and I think they're two of the worst campaigns I've seen. | 0:55:41 | 0:55:44 | |
I think you should be very clear | 0:55:44 | 0:55:45 | |
about what we would gain if we stayed | 0:55:45 | 0:55:48 | |
and what we would be losing if we left. | 0:55:48 | 0:55:50 | |
Those are the two questions we need answering before we can vote. | 0:55:50 | 0:55:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:55:53 | 0:55:56 | |
Tasmina. | 0:55:56 | 0:55:57 | |
Thank you, David. | 0:55:59 | 0:56:00 | |
If I may go back to the lady who asked the initial question, | 0:56:00 | 0:56:03 | |
is the ground well prepared? No, it's not. | 0:56:03 | 0:56:05 | |
It certainly isn't yet. | 0:56:05 | 0:56:06 | |
And that's one of the reasons why | 0:56:06 | 0:56:08 | |
we didn't want to have the referendum so close, | 0:56:08 | 0:56:10 | |
because we want to give the people of this country | 0:56:10 | 0:56:12 | |
an opportunity to have a national conversation. | 0:56:12 | 0:56:15 | |
One which we enjoyed in the Scottish independence referendum, | 0:56:15 | 0:56:18 | |
where all of the arguments, for and against - | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
and, of course, there are two sides to every story - | 0:56:21 | 0:56:23 | |
are played out, so people can make an informed decision | 0:56:23 | 0:56:26 | |
based on fact, not based on fear. | 0:56:26 | 0:56:29 | |
What we've seen at the moment, however, | 0:56:29 | 0:56:31 | |
is men in suits involved in this debate from beginning to end, | 0:56:31 | 0:56:35 | |
and there need to be more women involved in this debate. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:38 | |
And I think we'll see... We will have a changing face of this debate | 0:56:38 | 0:56:42 | |
when this happens, because we need to see and think about | 0:56:42 | 0:56:45 | |
what membership of the EU means for women, | 0:56:45 | 0:56:47 | |
what it means for young people, for farmers and fishermen. | 0:56:47 | 0:56:50 | |
All of the sectors that make up our society | 0:56:50 | 0:56:53 | |
should have a say in this debate. | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
We shouldn't try and stifle the debate | 0:56:55 | 0:56:57 | |
by saying people are going to be bored by it, | 0:56:57 | 0:56:59 | |
this is a matter of great importance. | 0:56:59 | 0:57:01 | |
And to the lady who's 17 at the back, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:03 | |
I voted for you to have a vote in this referendum - | 0:57:03 | 0:57:05 | |
you should most certainly be having one. | 0:57:05 | 0:57:07 | |
Nicky Morgan, can you pick up the point that Tasmina made | 0:57:07 | 0:57:10 | |
that this is being done in a rush? Why is it being done in such a rush? | 0:57:10 | 0:57:13 | |
No, I don't think it's being done in a rush. | 0:57:13 | 0:57:16 | |
But I think we've got time to debate the issues | 0:57:16 | 0:57:18 | |
between the end of February or the middle of February, | 0:57:18 | 0:57:21 | |
when the Prime Minister negotiated the deal, | 0:57:21 | 0:57:23 | |
right through to the 23rd of June. | 0:57:23 | 0:57:25 | |
And from the lady who talked about the campaigns, | 0:57:25 | 0:57:28 | |
I mean, I think this is what we want to see, the conversations happening. | 0:57:28 | 0:57:31 | |
-It shouldn't be happening just in Westminster. -Briefly. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
Yes, I must come back on Emily's point. She's worried about jobs. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:36 | |
I'm worried about jobs, too. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:38 | |
I'm worried about the jobs we've lost in the steel industry, | 0:57:38 | 0:57:41 | |
the jobs we've lost with aluminium plant closures, | 0:57:41 | 0:57:43 | |
the jobs we've lost in the chemicals industry | 0:57:43 | 0:57:45 | |
and the fertiliser industry. | 0:57:45 | 0:57:46 | |
-All as a direct result of European policies... -Nonsense. | 0:57:46 | 0:57:50 | |
..which have driven up energy prices. Look at the facts. | 0:57:50 | 0:57:52 | |
We have to stop. We've run out of time. | 0:57:52 | 0:57:55 | |
Way run out of time. I'm so sorry to those of you who had your hands up. | 0:57:55 | 0:58:00 | |
We will come back to it, but it won't be in Chelmsford. | 0:58:00 | 0:58:03 | |
I know. What can be done? | 0:58:03 | 0:58:05 | |
Question Time is back after Easter, on 7th April. | 0:58:05 | 0:58:09 | |
We're going to be in Ilford. | 0:58:09 | 0:58:10 | |
Come to Ilford. We have on the panel | 0:58:10 | 0:58:12 | |
the novelist, the author of Trainspotting, Irvine Welsh, | 0:58:12 | 0:58:16 | |
and the Daily Telegraph columnist Allison Pearson. | 0:58:16 | 0:58:19 | |
I don't know who the politicians are going to be yet. | 0:58:19 | 0:58:21 | |
And the week after that we're going to be in Doncaster. | 0:58:21 | 0:58:23 | |
So if you want to come to either Ilford or Doncaster, | 0:58:23 | 0:58:26 | |
there are the details on the screen. | 0:58:26 | 0:58:27 | |
You can phone us or you can go to our website. | 0:58:27 | 0:58:30 | |
If you phone us, it's... | 0:58:30 | 0:58:33 | |
On Radio 5 Live, of course, this debate carries on into the night. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:37 | |
But my thanks to our panel | 0:58:37 | 0:58:39 | |
and all of you who came to Chelmsford to take part. | 0:58:39 | 0:58:41 | |
Until a fortnight or so from now, from Question Time, goodnight. | 0:58:41 | 0:58:45 |