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QUESTION TIME FKR E075F/01 BRD000000 | 0:00:00 | 0:00:00 | |
Tonight, we're in Dundee, and this is Question Time. | 4:13:15 | 4:13:18 | |
And good evening. Welcome to you, whether you're watching | 4:13:27 | 4:13:29 | |
or listening to this programme and welcome to our panel tonight, | 4:13:29 | 4:13:33 | |
here to answer questions and debate with our audience. | 4:13:33 | 4:13:36 | |
The Conservative leader in Scotland, Ruth Davidson, | 4:13:36 | 4:13:40 | |
the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, John Swinney of the SNP, | 4:13:40 | 4:13:44 | |
Labour's Health Spokesperson in | 4:13:44 | 4:13:46 | |
the Scottish Parliament, Jenny Marra, | 4:13:46 | 4:13:48 | |
the leader of the Scottish Liberal Democrats, Willie Rennie, | 4:13:48 | 4:13:52 | |
the co-convener of the Scottish Greens, | 4:13:52 | 4:13:54 | |
Patrick Harvie, and the Daily Telegraph columnist | 4:13:54 | 4:13:57 | |
and leader writer, Tim Stanley. | 4:13:57 | 4:13:59 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:14:00 | 4:14:03 | |
Thank you very much. | 4:14:11 | 4:14:12 | |
Just before we take our first question, don't forget | 4:14:12 | 4:14:14 | |
Facebook, text or Twitter. The details are on the screen | 4:14:14 | 4:14:17 | |
if you want to comment on | 4:14:17 | 4:14:19 | |
anything that's said here, as I'm sure you may want to. | 4:14:19 | 4:14:21 | |
Callum Richardson, your question, please. | 4:14:21 | 4:14:24 | |
Is a second independence referendum | 4:14:24 | 4:14:26 | |
inevitable if Britain votes to leave the EU? | 4:14:26 | 4:14:29 | |
Ie, will Scotland have a second referendum vote if Britain, | 4:14:29 | 4:14:33 | |
as a whole, votes to leave the EU? Patrick Harvie? | 4:14:33 | 4:14:36 | |
My personal view is | 4:14:37 | 4:14:39 | |
I suspect Scotland will choose to ask itself | 4:14:39 | 4:14:42 | |
the question about independence again. | 4:14:42 | 4:14:45 | |
I'll expect to be campaigning for a Yes vote again. | 4:14:45 | 4:14:49 | |
Not for the same reasons, I have to say, | 4:14:49 | 4:14:51 | |
that some on the Yes campaign put forward. | 4:14:51 | 4:14:54 | |
The Greens have always set out a distinctive path on this one. | 4:14:54 | 4:14:58 | |
But I do hope that we don't have to address | 4:14:58 | 4:15:01 | |
that question in the context of the UK having | 4:15:01 | 4:15:04 | |
voted to leave the European Union - | 4:15:04 | 4:15:07 | |
a political and economic union that I think is of | 4:15:07 | 4:15:11 | |
far more value to us in Scotland in forging | 4:15:11 | 4:15:14 | |
a more equal, a more socially just | 4:15:14 | 4:15:16 | |
and a more environmentally responsible community of nations. | 4:15:16 | 4:15:21 | |
If we were to see the UK vote to leave | 4:15:21 | 4:15:24 | |
the European Union, I think it would be very | 4:15:24 | 4:15:28 | |
challenging for those of us who thought that we | 4:15:28 | 4:15:31 | |
had better answers to offer for some of the questions, | 4:15:31 | 4:15:34 | |
such as currency, than were put forward by the SNP in 2014. | 4:15:34 | 4:15:38 | |
I think it would be hard | 4:15:38 | 4:15:40 | |
for us to say this is a stable time in which Scotland | 4:15:40 | 4:15:43 | |
could make that break, particularly as we might be talking | 4:15:43 | 4:15:46 | |
about two years or more of negotiations. | 4:15:46 | 4:15:48 | |
I think it's far better for Scotland and for the UK, | 4:15:48 | 4:15:52 | |
whichever view you take of independence, | 4:15:52 | 4:15:54 | |
that we vote together in as big numbers as we possibly can | 4:15:54 | 4:15:58 | |
to stay in the European Union | 4:15:58 | 4:15:59 | |
and then to turn it into the socially just and progressive | 4:15:59 | 4:16:03 | |
-and democratic union that it ought to be. -All right, thank you. | 4:16:03 | 4:16:07 | |
Ruth Davidson. APPLAUSE | 4:16:07 | 4:16:09 | |
Just a reminder of the question. | 4:16:11 | 4:16:13 | |
It's not to rehearse the arguments for in and out, | 4:16:13 | 4:16:15 | |
it's about whether the second independence referendum | 4:16:15 | 4:16:18 | |
would be inevitable if the UK, | 4:16:18 | 4:16:20 | |
as a whole, voted out but Scotland voted in. | 4:16:20 | 4:16:23 | |
No, I don't think it is inevitable. I also believe, | 4:16:23 | 4:16:26 | |
actually, that the whole of the UK will vote to stay in. | 4:16:26 | 4:16:29 | |
That's certainly my hope. | 4:16:29 | 4:16:31 | |
I think that we had a huge discussion about this. | 4:16:31 | 4:16:34 | |
At every event I was at during the independence referendum, | 4:16:34 | 4:16:37 | |
this was something that was known about and discussed | 4:16:37 | 4:16:40 | |
before Scotland passed its vote. We cast a clear-cut vote, | 4:16:40 | 4:16:44 | |
two million people said, "We want to stay part of the United Kingdom." | 4:16:44 | 4:16:47 | |
I've never understood the argument that the SNP has put forward | 4:16:47 | 4:16:50 | |
that says that being part of the wider EU, | 4:16:50 | 4:16:53 | |
if there was to be a Brexit, | 4:16:53 | 4:16:55 | |
where we export 15% of our goods and services, | 4:16:55 | 4:16:57 | |
is so important that we have to leave a union | 4:16:57 | 4:17:00 | |
where we export 64% of our goods and services. | 4:17:00 | 4:17:03 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:17:03 | 4:17:04 | |
It's a really easy one to solve. | 4:17:06 | 4:17:09 | |
Because, before the independence referendum, | 4:17:09 | 4:17:11 | |
everybody senior in the SNP said it was once-in-a-generation. | 4:17:11 | 4:17:14 | |
Since then, they've refused to say that again, | 4:17:14 | 4:17:16 | |
so I'll ask John to say it tonight. | 4:17:16 | 4:17:18 | |
OK. John? She's only asking you to say that. | 4:17:18 | 4:17:21 | |
Am I not to answer the other question? | 4:17:21 | 4:17:24 | |
-You can answer hers first. -Once-in-a-generation, John? | 4:17:24 | 4:17:27 | |
The view that I take about this is that the people of Scotland | 4:17:27 | 4:17:30 | |
are the people that will decide | 4:17:30 | 4:17:31 | |
whether Scotland should be an independent country. | 4:17:31 | 4:17:34 | |
And nobody, absolutely nobody, least of all me, | 4:17:34 | 4:17:36 | |
can take away the right of the people of Scotland | 4:17:36 | 4:17:38 | |
to decide if they want to have another referendum | 4:17:38 | 4:17:41 | |
and to decide if they want to be an independent country. | 4:17:41 | 4:17:44 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:17:44 | 4:17:46 | |
So that is and issue in the hands of the people of Scotland | 4:17:46 | 4:17:48 | |
to decide, when - and if - that happens. | 4:17:48 | 4:17:51 | |
Sorry, can I just stop you there? | 4:17:51 | 4:17:53 | |
How do the people of Scotland decide whether to have | 4:17:53 | 4:17:56 | |
a referendum unless you have a referendum on | 4:17:56 | 4:17:58 | |
-whether to have a referendum? -What there would have to be... | 4:17:58 | 4:18:01 | |
The Nationalist party has to legislate for it, don't you, John? | 4:18:01 | 4:18:04 | |
There has to be demonstrably clear support | 4:18:04 | 4:18:07 | |
that people in Scotland wanted there to be | 4:18:07 | 4:18:09 | |
an independence referendum, | 4:18:09 | 4:18:10 | |
and for Scotland to be an independent country. | 4:18:10 | 4:18:13 | |
And, ultimately, that issue | 4:18:13 | 4:18:14 | |
has to be resolved in a referendum | 4:18:14 | 4:18:16 | |
where people are free to vote the way they choose | 4:18:16 | 4:18:18 | |
-in that referendum. -We did. | 4:18:18 | 4:18:20 | |
How would it be affected, come to the main point, | 4:18:20 | 4:18:22 | |
about if the rest of Britain voted out and Scotland voted in? | 4:18:22 | 4:18:26 | |
The first thing I want to say is to agree with Patrick | 4:18:26 | 4:18:29 | |
that I hope people will vote, and vote decisively, | 4:18:29 | 4:18:32 | |
to stay in the European Union. | 4:18:32 | 4:18:34 | |
I will be arguing for that. The SNP will be arguing for that, | 4:18:34 | 4:18:37 | |
the Scottish government will be arguing for that, | 4:18:37 | 4:18:39 | |
because we believe that to be advantageous | 4:18:39 | 4:18:42 | |
for the social and economic and environmental wellbeing | 4:18:42 | 4:18:44 | |
of people in Scotland. | 4:18:44 | 4:18:46 | |
That is the argument I will put forward. | 4:18:46 | 4:18:48 | |
If we find ourselves in a situation where Scotland, for example, | 4:18:48 | 4:18:52 | |
has voted decisively in favour of EU membership | 4:18:52 | 4:18:55 | |
but we are taken out of the EU | 4:18:55 | 4:18:57 | |
because of votes outwith the United Kingdom, fundamentally, | 4:18:57 | 4:19:01 | |
the promise that was given to people in the Scottish referendum, | 4:19:01 | 4:19:05 | |
that you had to vote No to stay in the EU, | 4:19:05 | 4:19:07 | |
that was the argument put forward - you must vote No to stay in the EU - | 4:19:07 | 4:19:11 | |
then I think, fundamentally, | 4:19:11 | 4:19:13 | |
part of the promise of the No campaign has been breached | 4:19:13 | 4:19:16 | |
and circumstances change | 4:19:16 | 4:19:17 | |
in relation to the question of a further referendum. | 4:19:17 | 4:19:20 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:19:20 | 4:19:22 | |
Are you genuinely trying to claim | 4:19:24 | 4:19:25 | |
the last Scottish independence referendum | 4:19:25 | 4:19:28 | |
was actually a referendum on membership of the EU? | 4:19:28 | 4:19:30 | |
Because I don't remember that. | 4:19:30 | 4:19:32 | |
-What I'm saying is... -APPLAUSE | 4:19:32 | 4:19:34 | |
On a constant basis, Tim, one of the arguments put forward by | 4:19:38 | 4:19:42 | |
the No campaign, put forward by people around this table, | 4:19:42 | 4:19:44 | |
was that the only way you could secure Scotland's | 4:19:44 | 4:19:47 | |
membership of the European Union was to vote No | 4:19:47 | 4:19:50 | |
because that guaranteed your membership as part of the UK. | 4:19:50 | 4:19:53 | |
What I'm warning and cautioning about | 4:19:53 | 4:19:55 | |
is that the gamble | 4:19:55 | 4:19:56 | |
the Prime Minister has taken with the EU referendum | 4:19:56 | 4:19:59 | |
jeopardises Scotland's membership of the EU, | 4:19:59 | 4:20:01 | |
and that was not what the Prime Minister promised | 4:20:01 | 4:20:03 | |
-in the Scottish referendum. -Now... | 4:20:03 | 4:20:05 | |
Now, I think people are sick and tired | 4:20:05 | 4:20:08 | |
of the SNP holding the entire country hostage | 4:20:08 | 4:20:11 | |
and saying that whenever... | 4:20:11 | 4:20:12 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:20:12 | 4:20:15 | |
..whenever there is a policy that the union, | 4:20:15 | 4:20:18 | |
as a whole, wishes to follow, | 4:20:18 | 4:20:20 | |
they say they will hold a referendum and leave. | 4:20:20 | 4:20:22 | |
Think about it. Let's say that actually happened - | 4:20:22 | 4:20:25 | |
let's say Britain votes to leave the EU | 4:20:25 | 4:20:27 | |
and Scotland then votes to go into it. | 4:20:27 | 4:20:29 | |
What would happen on the basis of the finances | 4:20:29 | 4:20:32 | |
that the SNP has left Scotland with? | 4:20:32 | 4:20:35 | |
You would have austerity forced upon you by the European Central Bank. | 4:20:35 | 4:20:38 | |
So it's not even something you would want if you got it. | 4:20:38 | 4:20:41 | |
Let me hear from... Hold on. I'll come to you. | 4:20:43 | 4:20:46 | |
The woman there, just two in in the fourth row. | 4:20:46 | 4:20:49 | |
-Yes, you. -I thought we voted to stay in the UK in 2014. | 4:20:49 | 4:20:54 | |
What has changed? | 4:20:54 | 4:20:56 | |
And what, in your view, has changed? Nothing? | 4:20:56 | 4:20:59 | |
Yeah, nothing. | 4:20:59 | 4:21:01 | |
55.3% of the Scottish population voted No. | 4:21:01 | 4:21:07 | |
If the UK, as a whole, voted Brexit, what would you think then? | 4:21:07 | 4:21:13 | |
I think it would give the SNP an opportunity | 4:21:13 | 4:21:19 | |
and an excuse to hold another referendum. | 4:21:19 | 4:21:21 | |
-And would you still vote No? -Yes. | 4:21:21 | 4:21:24 | |
Even if it meant not being in the EU. OK. | 4:21:24 | 4:21:26 | |
-By the way, Scottish Euro-sceptics do exist. -You said that already. | 4:21:27 | 4:21:31 | |
A recent poll showed 36% of Scottish people | 4:21:31 | 4:21:34 | |
want to leave the EU. | 4:21:34 | 4:21:35 | |
The SNP needs to stop characterising all Scots | 4:21:35 | 4:21:38 | |
-as being SNP. -Jenny Marra. | 4:21:38 | 4:21:39 | |
I don't think the UK will vote to leave the European Union. | 4:21:39 | 4:21:44 | |
I don't think people want to take that risk overall | 4:21:44 | 4:21:47 | |
with jobs and the economy. | 4:21:47 | 4:21:49 | |
But if the UK does vote to come out | 4:21:49 | 4:21:52 | |
and Scotland votes to stay, | 4:21:52 | 4:21:54 | |
then it will very much be up to the people of Scotland, | 4:21:54 | 4:21:58 | |
as John says, and as the First Minister says, | 4:21:58 | 4:22:01 | |
if they want a second referendum. | 4:22:01 | 4:22:03 | |
However, the means to that, I think, | 4:22:03 | 4:22:05 | |
would be if the SNP were to put it in their manifesto. | 4:22:05 | 4:22:08 | |
I think that's a key question for this election coming up, | 4:22:08 | 4:22:11 | |
whether John's party will put | 4:22:11 | 4:22:13 | |
a second referendum in their manifesto. | 4:22:13 | 4:22:16 | |
Because, if that did happen, there are big questions, | 4:22:16 | 4:22:18 | |
as Tim said, about currency. | 4:22:18 | 4:22:20 | |
You would then be in a situation... | 4:22:20 | 4:22:21 | |
The SNP said they wanted to keep the pound, | 4:22:21 | 4:22:23 | |
so we'd be in a sterling zone with the rest of the UK, | 4:22:23 | 4:22:26 | |
who would be out of the EU. | 4:22:26 | 4:22:27 | |
I think we would be running the largest deficit | 4:22:27 | 4:22:30 | |
out of any EU country. | 4:22:30 | 4:22:32 | |
We'd be under a lot of pressure to join the euro. | 4:22:32 | 4:22:34 | |
There's no guarantees that accession to the EU, | 4:22:34 | 4:22:37 | |
or as a continuing state, as John previously argued, | 4:22:37 | 4:22:40 | |
would be guaranteed. | 4:22:40 | 4:22:41 | |
But I believe that Scotland is best within the UK | 4:22:41 | 4:22:44 | |
and the UK is best within the EU, | 4:22:44 | 4:22:46 | |
and that's what I'll be campaigning for. | 4:22:46 | 4:22:48 | |
I cannot believe I've just heard the Labour Party | 4:22:48 | 4:22:51 | |
selling the jersey on a second independence referendum | 4:22:51 | 4:22:53 | |
sitting next to me right now. You're such a mess on this. | 4:22:53 | 4:22:56 | |
You've got candidates standing that support independence. | 4:22:56 | 4:22:58 | |
Half of your candidates are putting things out saying, | 4:22:58 | 4:23:00 | |
"A once-in-a-generation decision, | 4:23:00 | 4:23:02 | |
"let's hold Nicola Sturgeon to that promise on independence," | 4:23:02 | 4:23:05 | |
-and you're sitting here saying John Swinney is right. -No. | 4:23:05 | 4:23:07 | |
Let's get yourself in order. | 4:23:07 | 4:23:09 | |
-They said before the referendum it was once-in-a-generation. -Nope. | 4:23:09 | 4:23:12 | |
The people of this country made a choice. | 4:23:12 | 4:23:14 | |
They voted, more than two million people voted to stay in. | 4:23:14 | 4:23:16 | |
And I voted No as well. | 4:23:16 | 4:23:18 | |
We should honour that choice and we should make sure | 4:23:18 | 4:23:20 | |
we speak up for the people who voted No. | 4:23:20 | 4:23:23 | |
-Willie Rennie. -I think Ruth is right, | 4:23:23 | 4:23:25 | |
we should honour the choice that people in Scotland made. | 4:23:25 | 4:23:29 | |
It was supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. | 4:23:29 | 4:23:33 | |
But the danger that the Conservative Party | 4:23:33 | 4:23:35 | |
are imposing on Scotland is | 4:23:35 | 4:23:37 | |
that they are now threatening to leave the European Union. | 4:23:37 | 4:23:41 | |
Our ancestors would look down with incredulity | 4:23:41 | 4:23:44 | |
if they even thought we were considering | 4:23:44 | 4:23:47 | |
leaving the continent of Europe, | 4:23:47 | 4:23:49 | |
and all the benefits that come with it. | 4:23:49 | 4:23:51 | |
-We're not moving to the Caribbean! -Hold on, Tim. | 4:23:51 | 4:23:53 | |
This is exactly what the Tories have put on Scotland. | 4:23:53 | 4:23:58 | |
The danger is that, if we do leave, | 4:23:58 | 4:24:00 | |
then it opens up the whole issue about independence all over again. | 4:24:00 | 4:24:04 | |
And it is not because of the two million voters who voted No, | 4:24:04 | 4:24:09 | |
it's because of Ruth's party. | 4:24:09 | 4:24:11 | |
They're determined to keep the issue alive. | 4:24:11 | 4:24:13 | |
Sorry, you say keep it alive, | 4:24:13 | 4:24:15 | |
you've got the Prime Minister, | 4:24:15 | 4:24:17 | |
I don't know how much it counts for here, | 4:24:17 | 4:24:19 | |
but you've got the Prime Minister urging to stay, a remain vote. | 4:24:19 | 4:24:21 | |
So why do you say the Conservatives are in favour of an out vote? | 4:24:21 | 4:24:24 | |
There's large numbers of the Cabinet | 4:24:24 | 4:24:26 | |
are arguing for exit, credible people on the other side, | 4:24:26 | 4:24:30 | |
and it's all because the Tories | 4:24:30 | 4:24:32 | |
cannot keep themselves together on Europe. | 4:24:32 | 4:24:35 | |
They are now dividing the country as a result. | 4:24:35 | 4:24:37 | |
I don't think that is in the interests of Scotland, | 4:24:37 | 4:24:40 | |
I don't think it's in the interest of the UK. | 4:24:40 | 4:24:42 | |
Can I just try this? Can I hear from anybody here in the audience | 4:24:42 | 4:24:46 | |
who is going to vote out, | 4:24:46 | 4:24:47 | |
and what they think the implications... | 4:24:47 | 4:24:49 | |
A lot of hands going up! | 4:24:49 | 4:24:50 | |
..what the implications would be. | 4:24:50 | 4:24:52 | |
I'll take you, the man there on the gangway. | 4:24:52 | 4:24:54 | |
I doubt that, in the event of Brexit, | 4:24:54 | 4:24:57 | |
given the scale of the public finances in Scotland, | 4:24:57 | 4:25:02 | |
the gaping big hole that we have, | 4:25:02 | 4:25:04 | |
they prove the White Paper no better than bog roll, | 4:25:04 | 4:25:08 | |
that the Scottish people would vote to leave the United Kingdom. | 4:25:08 | 4:25:12 | |
Any other Brexit...? | 4:25:12 | 4:25:13 | |
Yes, the person in the second row from the back there. | 4:25:13 | 4:25:17 | |
I think it's ridiculous to suggest | 4:25:17 | 4:25:19 | |
we should vote to rejoin an organisation, | 4:25:19 | 4:25:22 | |
if we do stay a part of it, | 4:25:22 | 4:25:23 | |
which costs us billions of pounds every year, | 4:25:23 | 4:25:25 | |
which means that Scottish farms and Scottish fisheries | 4:25:25 | 4:25:28 | |
are run by Brussels, | 4:25:28 | 4:25:29 | |
which means that we don't have control | 4:25:29 | 4:25:31 | |
over our own borders and we can choose who comes here, | 4:25:31 | 4:25:34 | |
and which means that we have austerity | 4:25:34 | 4:25:36 | |
forced on us by the European Union, | 4:25:36 | 4:25:38 | |
as we've seen with Greece, as we've seen with Ireland. | 4:25:38 | 4:25:41 | |
I have no idea why people would campaign to rejoin | 4:25:41 | 4:25:44 | |
or stay part of an organisation | 4:25:44 | 4:25:45 | |
which forces Scotland into these situations. | 4:25:45 | 4:25:48 | |
Do you think Nicola Sturgeon, and indeed John Swinney's view, | 4:25:48 | 4:25:52 | |
in Nicola Sturgeon's words, | 4:25:52 | 4:25:54 | |
that almost certainly there would be a second referendum | 4:25:54 | 4:25:56 | |
if the vote was Brexit? You think that is a policy | 4:25:56 | 4:26:00 | |
that won't have traction here in Scotland, | 4:26:00 | 4:26:02 | |
people object to it? | 4:26:02 | 4:26:03 | |
Or do you think it will be something you go through | 4:26:03 | 4:26:06 | |
and maybe Scotland votes independent? | 4:26:06 | 4:26:08 | |
I think people would object to it on grounds that, | 4:26:08 | 4:26:10 | |
why would we want to leave the United Kingdom, | 4:26:10 | 4:26:12 | |
and the cost that would come with that, | 4:26:12 | 4:26:14 | |
to rejoin an organisation which would cost us even more money | 4:26:14 | 4:26:17 | |
and which we would then give away the control | 4:26:17 | 4:26:19 | |
that we've just took back...? | 4:26:19 | 4:26:20 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:26:20 | 4:26:22 | |
I think what that argument doesn't pay attention to is, | 4:26:26 | 4:26:29 | |
what are the views of the people of Scotland in all of this? | 4:26:29 | 4:26:32 | |
Because if the people of Scotland | 4:26:32 | 4:26:34 | |
have voted Yes to stay in the European Union, | 4:26:34 | 4:26:36 | |
and the rest of the United Kingdom votes us out of the European Union, | 4:26:36 | 4:26:40 | |
a fundamental promise and commitment that was given to people that, | 4:26:40 | 4:26:44 | |
by voting No in the Scottish referendum, | 4:26:44 | 4:26:46 | |
we would secure our membership of the European Union, | 4:26:46 | 4:26:49 | |
will have been breached. | 4:26:49 | 4:26:50 | |
Ultimately what I believe | 4:26:50 | 4:26:52 | |
is that the people of Scotland are sovereign. | 4:26:52 | 4:26:55 | |
They are the ones that are entitled to determine their own future and | 4:26:55 | 4:26:58 | |
to decide to whom they give their sovereignty. | 4:26:58 | 4:27:01 | |
Do they give it to Westminster | 4:27:01 | 4:27:02 | |
or do they give it to the European Union, | 4:27:02 | 4:27:04 | |
or do they retain it for themselves, | 4:27:04 | 4:27:05 | |
or do they decide to share it with | 4:27:05 | 4:27:07 | |
whatever institution they wish to share it with? | 4:27:07 | 4:27:09 | |
That is a fundamental choice for the people of Scotland | 4:27:09 | 4:27:12 | |
and nobody can take that choice away from the people of Scotland. | 4:27:12 | 4:27:15 | |
The man there in the blue shirt. You were shaking your head at that. | 4:27:15 | 4:27:18 | |
Are we holding politicians to stick to the promises? | 4:27:18 | 4:27:22 | |
You promised it was | 4:27:22 | 4:27:23 | |
-once-in-a-lifetime, so... -APPLAUSE | 4:27:23 | 4:27:26 | |
What was the nature of the promise, | 4:27:30 | 4:27:32 | |
that if Scotland voted No to independence | 4:27:32 | 4:27:34 | |
it would mean you were guaranteed to stay in the EU? | 4:27:34 | 4:27:37 | |
Because there'd already been the promise of a referendum on that. | 4:27:37 | 4:27:41 | |
And at every single debate I did, you brought it up every single time. | 4:27:41 | 4:27:45 | |
People knew when they were voting at the independence referendum | 4:27:45 | 4:27:48 | |
that the Conservative Party had said | 4:27:48 | 4:27:50 | |
we would have a referendum on the European Union | 4:27:50 | 4:27:52 | |
and everyone would have their say. | 4:27:52 | 4:27:54 | |
Ruth, come on, you listened to the same debates as I did. | 4:27:54 | 4:27:57 | |
-I was in them. -The Prime Minister was here... | 4:27:57 | 4:27:59 | |
The SNP raised this every single time. | 4:27:59 | 4:28:03 | |
..saying to people, | 4:28:03 | 4:28:04 | |
if you want to secure your place in the European Union, | 4:28:04 | 4:28:07 | |
you cannot choose to vote Yes | 4:28:07 | 4:28:09 | |
because it won't guarantee you membership. | 4:28:09 | 4:28:11 | |
-Won't guarantee you entry. -That was the promise that the Prime Minister | 4:28:11 | 4:28:14 | |
made to the people of Scotland and | 4:28:14 | 4:28:16 | |
that will be broken if there is a Brexit. | 4:28:16 | 4:28:18 | |
Every time you made a promise, | 4:28:18 | 4:28:19 | |
that you would honour the referendum result, | 4:28:19 | 4:28:22 | |
you wouldn't call a second one, it was once-in-a-generation... | 4:28:22 | 4:28:24 | |
Your boss Nicola Sturgeon signed the Edinburgh Agreement | 4:28:24 | 4:28:27 | |
that said we will respect the result. | 4:28:27 | 4:28:29 | |
Why are you not respecting the result that we had 18 months ago? | 4:28:29 | 4:28:32 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:28:33 | 4:28:35 | |
We have entirely respected the result. We have worked to secure... | 4:28:37 | 4:28:40 | |
-What? -LAUGHTER | 4:28:40 | 4:28:42 | |
-Listen to them! -We have worked to secure the Smith Commission | 4:28:42 | 4:28:45 | |
that agreed the further powers after it, | 4:28:45 | 4:28:47 | |
we've worked to deliver the Scotland Bill | 4:28:47 | 4:28:49 | |
which Parliament will consider in the next couple of weeks. | 4:28:49 | 4:28:52 | |
We have respected the result but, fundamentally, | 4:28:52 | 4:28:54 | |
we respect the right of the people of Scotland | 4:28:54 | 4:28:56 | |
to determine their own constitutional future. | 4:28:56 | 4:28:58 | |
Which is why there's a referendum on EU membership. | 4:28:58 | 4:29:01 | |
-Their votes will be counted. -There is hardly a week goes by, John, | 4:29:01 | 4:29:05 | |
that you don't seek an opportunity to say, | 4:29:05 | 4:29:07 | |
"If this does not happen on our terms, | 4:29:07 | 4:29:09 | |
"we are going to have another independence referendum." | 4:29:09 | 4:29:13 | |
That's exactly what happened. | 4:29:13 | 4:29:14 | |
You betrayed the trust of people. | 4:29:14 | 4:29:16 | |
You said... People... | 4:29:16 | 4:29:18 | |
You promised to the people of Scotland, | 4:29:18 | 4:29:20 | |
that there would be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. | 4:29:20 | 4:29:23 | |
You have gone back on that promise. | 4:29:23 | 4:29:25 | |
I think people in Scotland will not forgive you for that. | 4:29:25 | 4:29:28 | |
OK, you, yes. No. The man to his left. | 4:29:28 | 4:29:33 | |
First point to Jenny Marra, | 4:29:35 | 4:29:37 | |
you said that you're pushing again for the SNP to put | 4:29:37 | 4:29:42 | |
in their manifesto that they would have another referendum. | 4:29:42 | 4:29:46 | |
-No. -The clue is in the name, | 4:29:46 | 4:29:48 | |
the Scottish National Party, their aim has never changed. | 4:29:48 | 4:29:51 | |
It's like saying the Green Party, | 4:29:51 | 4:29:53 | |
if they lost an election, would cease to be a Green Party. | 4:29:53 | 4:29:56 | |
They are always for independence, you know. Get used to it. | 4:29:56 | 4:30:01 | |
The second point is, Ruth Davidson, you know, | 4:30:01 | 4:30:04 | |
David Cameron clearly came up to Scotland, | 4:30:04 | 4:30:07 | |
and the whole Project Fear team, and told the people of Scotland, | 4:30:07 | 4:30:10 | |
"If you vote No, you will be guaranteed to stay in | 4:30:10 | 4:30:14 | |
"the EU, if you vote Yes, Scotland will be out the EU." | 4:30:14 | 4:30:18 | |
That was a definite repeated threat | 4:30:18 | 4:30:21 | |
-to the Scottish people. -APPLAUSE | 4:30:21 | 4:30:24 | |
When you say... | 4:30:25 | 4:30:26 | |
Third point... Can I just say..? | 4:30:26 | 4:30:29 | |
You can't go all round the panel because you'll be here all night. | 4:30:29 | 4:30:32 | |
Hold on a second, hold on. | 4:30:32 | 4:30:33 | |
Did you or did you not know there was going to be a referendum...? | 4:30:33 | 4:30:36 | |
Yes, which was promised in 2013. | 4:30:36 | 4:30:39 | |
Yes, but the conflict between that was David Cameron and | 4:30:39 | 4:30:43 | |
Project Fear coming to Scotland... | 4:30:43 | 4:30:46 | |
These are two different things, aren't they? One is to say, | 4:30:46 | 4:30:48 | |
"If you leave the UK, you are on your own, | 4:30:48 | 4:30:53 | |
"you will have to make your own decisions | 4:30:53 | 4:30:55 | |
"versus the EU and membership," the other is, | 4:30:55 | 4:30:58 | |
"Stay but there is going to be a referendum." | 4:30:58 | 4:31:00 | |
No, but the problem... | 4:31:00 | 4:31:01 | |
It was definitely not expressed in that fashion, | 4:31:01 | 4:31:04 | |
it was expressed in the fashion, | 4:31:04 | 4:31:05 | |
"Vote No and you are guaranteed | 4:31:05 | 4:31:07 | |
"to keep your membership of the European Union." | 4:31:07 | 4:31:09 | |
That's what the Prime Minister promised to deliver. | 4:31:09 | 4:31:12 | |
You were taken in, John, weren't you? | 4:31:12 | 4:31:13 | |
Because you'd forgotten the referendum was coming. | 4:31:13 | 4:31:15 | |
That's what was in the minds of people in Scotland. | 4:31:15 | 4:31:18 | |
-That's what they were told. -Had you forgotten the referendum? | 4:31:18 | 4:31:20 | |
I voted Yes in the referendum, David. | 4:31:20 | 4:31:22 | |
On the European referendum. | 4:31:22 | 4:31:24 | |
I'm very proud I voted Yes in the Scottish referendum. | 4:31:24 | 4:31:26 | |
You haven't voted on the EU referendum yet, | 4:31:26 | 4:31:28 | |
that's what I'm talking about. | 4:31:28 | 4:31:29 | |
You, sir, in the middle there, shaking your head again. | 4:31:29 | 4:31:32 | |
-Let's hear from you. -Ruth Davidson made my point | 4:31:32 | 4:31:34 | |
that we knew there would be an in-out EU referendum | 4:31:34 | 4:31:36 | |
if the Tories won the 2015 general election. | 4:31:36 | 4:31:39 | |
We voted No, for better or worse, | 4:31:39 | 4:31:40 | |
and John Swinney is effectively saying | 4:31:40 | 4:31:42 | |
we were too stupid to understand that point | 4:31:42 | 4:31:44 | |
-and he holds all the No voters in complete contempt. -No, I'm not. | 4:31:44 | 4:31:47 | |
Not in the slightest. | 4:31:47 | 4:31:48 | |
-APPLAUSE -Incredibly insulting. -OK. | 4:31:48 | 4:31:52 | |
Yes. | 4:31:52 | 4:31:53 | |
The thing that astonishes me, actually, | 4:31:53 | 4:31:56 | |
is not that John Swinney or anybody else | 4:31:56 | 4:31:58 | |
is forever banging on about a second referendum, | 4:31:58 | 4:32:01 | |
it's the parties that were on the No side | 4:32:01 | 4:32:03 | |
that can't give up talking about a second referendum. | 4:32:03 | 4:32:05 | |
It's really quite bewildering. | 4:32:05 | 4:32:08 | |
-Look... -I will happily stop. | 4:32:08 | 4:32:09 | |
As soon as they repeat the words, "Once-in-a-generation," | 4:32:09 | 4:32:12 | |
I will happily never mention it again. | 4:32:12 | 4:32:14 | |
For as long as they continue to threaten and push, | 4:32:14 | 4:32:19 | |
someone has to stand up for the No voters. | 4:32:19 | 4:32:22 | |
There are two choices to make in Scotland in the coming months. | 4:32:22 | 4:32:24 | |
One is what kind of government are we going to elect | 4:32:24 | 4:32:27 | |
and what kind of parliament are we going to elect, | 4:32:27 | 4:32:29 | |
bold enough and strong enough to hold the Government to account? | 4:32:29 | 4:32:32 | |
The second is whether we wish to stay members of | 4:32:32 | 4:32:35 | |
a European Union which does strive for controls on bankers' excesses | 4:32:35 | 4:32:40 | |
when the UK Government tries to block it, | 4:32:40 | 4:32:42 | |
whether we want to stay part of a European Union | 4:32:42 | 4:32:44 | |
that does try to get some degree of collective response | 4:32:44 | 4:32:49 | |
to a humanitarian crisis in Europe, | 4:32:49 | 4:32:50 | |
the likes of which we haven't seen for generations, | 4:32:50 | 4:32:53 | |
-when a UK Government is saying, "We want none of it." -OK, fine. | 4:32:53 | 4:32:56 | |
-I know which way I'm voting. -APPLAUSE | 4:32:56 | 4:32:58 | |
Let's just...just take... | 4:32:58 | 4:33:01 | |
We can't stick on Europe all the time, | 4:33:01 | 4:33:03 | |
but I want to take this question from John Gordon, | 4:33:03 | 4:33:06 | |
if we can find you? | 4:33:06 | 4:33:07 | |
Hi. Is the In/Out vote on Europe not important enough | 4:33:07 | 4:33:12 | |
to listen to what the Queen thinks about it? | 4:33:12 | 4:33:15 | |
Ah, should...? Yes. | 4:33:15 | 4:33:17 | |
Do you think it is? | 4:33:17 | 4:33:19 | |
I think she does more for the country | 4:33:19 | 4:33:22 | |
than half of the people elected in Westminster. | 4:33:22 | 4:33:25 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:33:25 | 4:33:27 | |
Because the Sun, of course, had a headline this week saying, | 4:33:27 | 4:33:31 | |
"Queen backs Brexit," | 4:33:31 | 4:33:32 | |
and reports had her as telling MPs at a reception, | 4:33:32 | 4:33:35 | |
"I don't understand Europe," | 4:33:35 | 4:33:37 | |
and later saying the EU is heading in the wrong direction. | 4:33:37 | 4:33:41 | |
So the question is, why shouldn't we know what the Queen thinks? | 4:33:41 | 4:33:45 | |
Tim Stanley, do you think we should know what the Queen thinks? | 4:33:45 | 4:33:48 | |
Only if she wanted us to know. | 4:33:48 | 4:33:50 | |
The important point about that conversation is it was private. | 4:33:50 | 4:33:53 | |
Now, when the news got out, | 4:33:53 | 4:33:54 | |
the newspaper was right to report it | 4:33:54 | 4:33:56 | |
because that's what newspapers exist to do. | 4:33:56 | 4:33:59 | |
What shouldn't have happened | 4:33:59 | 4:34:01 | |
is that politicians shouldn't have gossiped | 4:34:01 | 4:34:03 | |
about what the Queen may or may not have said allegedly in private. | 4:34:03 | 4:34:06 | |
That was the mistake. | 4:34:06 | 4:34:07 | |
Now, having said all of that though, | 4:34:07 | 4:34:09 | |
whenever we think about the monarchy and its role in public life, | 4:34:09 | 4:34:13 | |
it's very much shaped by the particular monarch | 4:34:13 | 4:34:15 | |
that Elizabeth II has chosen to be. | 4:34:15 | 4:34:17 | |
Historically, it's unusual to have a monarch | 4:34:17 | 4:34:19 | |
who's this removed from politics. | 4:34:19 | 4:34:21 | |
Queen Victoria used to write passionate letters | 4:34:21 | 4:34:24 | |
to the newspapers, for example, demanding a ban on animal testing. | 4:34:24 | 4:34:28 | |
So monarchs have often been involved in politics | 4:34:28 | 4:34:30 | |
and it wouldn't surprise me | 4:34:30 | 4:34:31 | |
if a monarch was concerned about the loss of sovereignty. | 4:34:31 | 4:34:34 | |
It wouldn't surprise me if a monarch was concerned | 4:34:34 | 4:34:37 | |
about the cost of being a member of the European Union. | 4:34:37 | 4:34:39 | |
And it wouldn't surprise me if a monarch felt privately, | 4:34:39 | 4:34:42 | |
we are the fifth-largest economy in the world, | 4:34:42 | 4:34:45 | |
we are a damn important country, we can afford to go it alone. | 4:34:45 | 4:34:48 | |
The question is not... APPLAUSE | 4:34:49 | 4:34:52 | |
The question is not whether you would be surprised | 4:34:52 | 4:34:55 | |
at what the Queen may or may not think, | 4:34:55 | 4:34:57 | |
but whether all of us should be entitled | 4:34:57 | 4:34:59 | |
on an issue this important | 4:34:59 | 4:35:01 | |
to know what she thinks? | 4:35:01 | 4:35:02 | |
That's what the question is. | 4:35:02 | 4:35:04 | |
No, because that is not her constitutional role. | 4:35:04 | 4:35:07 | |
Having said that, | 4:35:07 | 4:35:08 | |
if she had intended people to know, then obviously we should know. | 4:35:08 | 4:35:11 | |
Again, I re-emphasise, we know in the '80s, or we're pretty sure, | 4:35:11 | 4:35:14 | |
that the Queen spoke about how she was distressed | 4:35:14 | 4:35:17 | |
about the state of poverty in Britain, | 4:35:17 | 4:35:19 | |
and she was concerned about apartheid in South Africa | 4:35:19 | 4:35:21 | |
and the state of the Commonwealth. | 4:35:21 | 4:35:23 | |
Don't imagine that monarchs have no political views. | 4:35:23 | 4:35:26 | |
So, John Swinney, when she said before the Scottish referendum, | 4:35:26 | 4:35:30 | |
"I hope people will think carefully about the future," | 4:35:30 | 4:35:33 | |
in your view, was that a deliberate, intentional intervention? | 4:35:33 | 4:35:36 | |
No, I don't. | 4:35:36 | 4:35:37 | |
I think it was the Queen setting out | 4:35:37 | 4:35:40 | |
that kind of thoughtful position that we would expect from the Queen. | 4:35:40 | 4:35:44 | |
And I think the point that I agree with from what Tim's said is | 4:35:44 | 4:35:47 | |
that, if the Queen's had a private conversation with senior members | 4:35:47 | 4:35:51 | |
of Government on Privy Council terms - | 4:35:51 | 4:35:54 | |
which we all know what the rules mean, | 4:35:54 | 4:35:56 | |
they are supposed to be kept private - | 4:35:56 | 4:35:58 | |
and a member of the Government has thought it fit | 4:35:58 | 4:36:01 | |
to go to Rupert Murdoch's wedding and then have a conversation there | 4:36:01 | 4:36:05 | |
which miraculously results in this story being reported | 4:36:05 | 4:36:09 | |
on the front page of the Sun, | 4:36:09 | 4:36:10 | |
it says more about senior members of the Government | 4:36:10 | 4:36:13 | |
than it says about the Queen. | 4:36:13 | 4:36:15 | |
So you think it was Michael Gove, do you? | 4:36:15 | 4:36:17 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:36:17 | 4:36:19 | |
Well, is it just me that's been wound up by that conspiracy theory | 4:36:19 | 4:36:23 | |
or is that maybe something that might have happened? | 4:36:23 | 4:36:26 | |
I think essentially, if the Queen is going to be outside of politics, | 4:36:26 | 4:36:31 | |
which she's chosen to be - | 4:36:31 | 4:36:32 | |
other than on the occasions where Tim quite rightly says | 4:36:32 | 4:36:36 | |
she says something definitive, publicly or with her own words - | 4:36:36 | 4:36:40 | |
then I think we should respect the Queen's decision | 4:36:40 | 4:36:43 | |
not to be involved in politics. | 4:36:43 | 4:36:44 | |
You, sir? Up there? | 4:36:44 | 4:36:45 | |
I would like to take the panel up on the idea that the Queen | 4:36:45 | 4:36:49 | |
is supposedly outside of politics when, as you have been discussing, | 4:36:49 | 4:36:52 | |
she was apparently having some kind of tirade | 4:36:52 | 4:36:55 | |
in a Privy Council meeting over lunch | 4:36:55 | 4:36:57 | |
and quite possibly that may have been what influenced Michael Gove. | 4:36:57 | 4:37:01 | |
She's a masterful politician, | 4:37:01 | 4:37:03 | |
and with the calibre of some of our actual elected politicians, | 4:37:03 | 4:37:06 | |
it's quite possible she's exerting | 4:37:06 | 4:37:08 | |
much more of an influence than she should. | 4:37:08 | 4:37:10 | |
-So she managed to win over Michael Gove? -You can imagine it. | 4:37:10 | 4:37:14 | |
All right, Ruth Davidson, can you imagine the scene? | 4:37:14 | 4:37:18 | |
I think I would go further than the original questioner | 4:37:18 | 4:37:21 | |
when he says he thinks the Queen's done more | 4:37:21 | 4:37:24 | |
than most elected politicians, | 4:37:24 | 4:37:26 | |
I think she's done more than all elected politicians | 4:37:26 | 4:37:29 | |
put together for the last 64 years. | 4:37:29 | 4:37:31 | |
And I think there's a difference | 4:37:31 | 4:37:33 | |
between unnamed sources gossiping about somebody else | 4:37:33 | 4:37:36 | |
and gossiping about somebody who's done so much, particularly | 4:37:36 | 4:37:40 | |
because she's stayed above politics and had a studied neutrality. | 4:37:40 | 4:37:44 | |
Because she's not able to correct the record the next day | 4:37:44 | 4:37:47 | |
and phone up the Sun. | 4:37:47 | 4:37:48 | |
What we should remember as well is that, one, the palace denied it | 4:37:48 | 4:37:52 | |
and has asked for an investigation to be launched by Ipso. | 4:37:52 | 4:37:55 | |
Two, the Deputy Prime Minister | 4:37:55 | 4:37:57 | |
who was supposed to be a protagonist in this conversation, | 4:37:57 | 4:38:00 | |
has utterly denied it. | 4:38:00 | 4:38:02 | |
And three, the only people | 4:38:02 | 4:38:03 | |
that seem to have graced the pages of the Sun with this | 4:38:03 | 4:38:06 | |
are utterly anonymous and won't put their hands up. | 4:38:06 | 4:38:09 | |
So we seem to have a story that no-one can stand up. | 4:38:09 | 4:38:12 | |
And I think when you have a person like the Queen | 4:38:12 | 4:38:14 | |
who's done so much for a country because she's stayed above politics, | 4:38:14 | 4:38:18 | |
and is then unable to make her position clear after the fact... | 4:38:18 | 4:38:20 | |
Actually, I think that while I understand newspapers | 4:38:20 | 4:38:23 | |
have to report news, this would have been best left alone | 4:38:23 | 4:38:26 | |
by the people who spoke to the Sun newspaper. | 4:38:26 | 4:38:28 | |
OK, anybody else want to come in on this? Yes? | 4:38:28 | 4:38:31 | |
Whether you take a positive view or not | 4:38:31 | 4:38:36 | |
of how the current monarch has done her job, | 4:38:36 | 4:38:39 | |
there is a very good reason why she's not entitled to have a vote, | 4:38:39 | 4:38:44 | |
either in elections or in a referendum. | 4:38:44 | 4:38:47 | |
You know, if this is someone who wished to be a private citizen | 4:38:47 | 4:38:51 | |
and to exercise a vote, | 4:38:51 | 4:38:52 | |
maybe even a vote for who the head of state would be | 4:38:52 | 4:38:55 | |
and we could all have a vote on that, I would welcome it. | 4:38:55 | 4:38:57 | |
Obviously it's difficult for someone in that position | 4:38:57 | 4:39:00 | |
not to form a personal, private view. | 4:39:00 | 4:39:02 | |
But to take a political stance, | 4:39:02 | 4:39:04 | |
whether in relation to members of the Privy Council | 4:39:04 | 4:39:07 | |
or in any other setting, is entirely at odds with her current role. | 4:39:07 | 4:39:11 | |
And if this private citizen called Elizabeth Windsor | 4:39:11 | 4:39:14 | |
wanted to have that different role, she should say so. | 4:39:14 | 4:39:16 | |
Are you alleging the story is true? Are you implying that it's true? | 4:39:16 | 4:39:22 | |
It's in the Sun, so form your own judgment. | 4:39:22 | 4:39:24 | |
LAUGHTER | 4:39:24 | 4:39:26 | |
I don't know what you mean by that. APPLAUSE | 4:39:26 | 4:39:28 | |
The thing that nauseates me most about this story | 4:39:28 | 4:39:31 | |
was hearing the editor of the Sun on the radio this morning, | 4:39:31 | 4:39:35 | |
claiming they've done this to stand up for ordinary people | 4:39:35 | 4:39:39 | |
against powerful elites. | 4:39:39 | 4:39:40 | |
To hear the editor of a Murdoch-owned newspaper saying | 4:39:40 | 4:39:44 | |
we should all pay attention to what the Queen thinks | 4:39:44 | 4:39:47 | |
because elites are a bad thing just makes my blood boil. | 4:39:47 | 4:39:51 | |
Do you want to come in on this? | 4:39:51 | 4:39:53 | |
I think for the strength of our country, | 4:39:53 | 4:39:55 | |
I think however anyone feels about the monarchy, | 4:39:55 | 4:39:58 | |
people would recognise that one of the main advantages of our Queen now | 4:39:58 | 4:40:04 | |
is she's stayed out and taken the decision, as Tim said... | 4:40:04 | 4:40:07 | |
monarchs have the decision to get involved or not, | 4:40:07 | 4:40:09 | |
she's taken the decision, | 4:40:09 | 4:40:11 | |
and that's been a strength of our democracy and that should maintain. | 4:40:11 | 4:40:14 | |
If people have private conversations with her, that should be respected. | 4:40:14 | 4:40:18 | |
Willie Rennie, do you want to come in on this? | 4:40:18 | 4:40:21 | |
No, no, it's fine. Move on. | 4:40:21 | 4:40:22 | |
You're done? OK, all done, as they say in the auctioneers'. | 4:40:22 | 4:40:26 | |
I'm in the auctioneers', all done. | 4:40:26 | 4:40:29 | |
A question from Kathy Aliberti, please. Yes? | 4:40:29 | 4:40:32 | |
Yes. Scottish Government figures yesterday revealed | 4:40:32 | 4:40:35 | |
a £15 billion deficit. | 4:40:35 | 4:40:37 | |
Is the economic case for independence now dead? | 4:40:37 | 4:40:41 | |
This goes to the heart of the whole business, I think. Ruth Davidson? | 4:40:41 | 4:40:45 | |
Somebody very close to the independence project, | 4:40:45 | 4:40:48 | |
a guy called Alex Bell, a chief adviser to Alex Salmond | 4:40:48 | 4:40:52 | |
during the White Paper-writing process | 4:40:52 | 4:40:53 | |
said the economic case was dead, | 4:40:53 | 4:40:55 | |
that you can't sell a case for low taxation, | 4:40:55 | 4:40:58 | |
high welfare on an oil price that was unusually high, | 4:40:58 | 4:41:03 | |
with revenues that were unassailable and unprovable, | 4:41:03 | 4:41:07 | |
and they've been found out. | 4:41:07 | 4:41:10 | |
The truth of the pudding has been in the eating. | 4:41:10 | 4:41:12 | |
I think, without going back over the very first question | 4:41:12 | 4:41:16 | |
we had on the programme today, | 4:41:16 | 4:41:17 | |
I think that not only is Scotland better off for being part of the UK, | 4:41:17 | 4:41:21 | |
and we see that by the Scottish Government's own figures, | 4:41:21 | 4:41:24 | |
to the tune of £1,400 per person, | 4:41:24 | 4:41:25 | |
but I think the UK's better off for having us in it. | 4:41:25 | 4:41:28 | |
I think, this decision having been made, | 4:41:28 | 4:41:31 | |
we should be pulling together, | 4:41:31 | 4:41:32 | |
trying to maximise all of our country, both sides of the border, | 4:41:32 | 4:41:35 | |
to bring in more investment from other countries and elsewhere. | 4:41:35 | 4:41:38 | |
The argument made was about the oil price, wasn't it? | 4:41:38 | 4:41:41 | |
That was where the dip in revenue came? | 4:41:41 | 4:41:43 | |
It was about actually the oil revenue, rather than the oil price. | 4:41:43 | 4:41:46 | |
This is the distinction that John Swinney's probably going to try | 4:41:46 | 4:41:49 | |
and blur because he likes to say | 4:41:49 | 4:41:51 | |
nobody suspected the oil price would drop | 4:41:51 | 4:41:53 | |
and we all got it wrong and that is just nonsense. | 4:41:53 | 4:41:55 | |
The difference is, we were saying even two years ago - | 4:41:55 | 4:41:58 | |
I stood up at First Ministers' Questions and said, | 4:41:58 | 4:42:01 | |
the OBR says that oil revenue for next year will be about £3 billion. | 4:42:01 | 4:42:04 | |
Alex Salmond tried to swat me aside, saying, don't be ridiculous, | 4:42:04 | 4:42:07 | |
it'll be £8 billion. | 4:42:07 | 4:42:08 | |
Actually it's going to be a lot lower than that. | 4:42:08 | 4:42:11 | |
We did know there was going to be a drop in revenue | 4:42:11 | 4:42:13 | |
and the cost of extraction was going to be higher. | 4:42:13 | 4:42:16 | |
We did know there would not be as much profits, | 4:42:16 | 4:42:18 | |
which meant we couldn't tax the companies as much, | 4:42:18 | 4:42:21 | |
which meant there wouldn't be as much money flowing into the coffers. | 4:42:21 | 4:42:25 | |
The difference is, | 4:42:25 | 4:42:26 | |
the SNP didn't make a case based on the fact that, we'll be independent | 4:42:26 | 4:42:30 | |
and we might take a short-term financial hit and move on, | 4:42:30 | 4:42:33 | |
they made a case promising Scottish people they would be £500 richer. | 4:42:33 | 4:42:36 | |
They knew that case was wrong when they made it, it was false, | 4:42:36 | 4:42:39 | |
they knew it and tried to con the Scottish public. | 4:42:39 | 4:42:41 | |
And I'm so glad that two million people voted No. | 4:42:41 | 4:42:44 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:42:44 | 4:42:46 | |
So just before I go to Mr Swinney, | 4:42:50 | 4:42:51 | |
you are saying the drop in the oil price is irrelevant? | 4:42:51 | 4:42:55 | |
No, I'm not saying it's irrelevant. | 4:42:55 | 4:42:57 | |
Obviously, we'd like to see a higher oil price, | 4:42:57 | 4:42:59 | |
but I will say is that the idea | 4:42:59 | 4:43:00 | |
we didn't know that oil revenues would be lower than they had been | 4:43:00 | 4:43:03 | |
and than was being promised, that is false. | 4:43:03 | 4:43:06 | |
John Swinney? | 4:43:06 | 4:43:07 | |
What's at the heart of this debate is a debate about whether | 4:43:07 | 4:43:11 | |
we have economic confidence here in Scotland. | 4:43:11 | 4:43:14 | |
And, when I look at the data published yesterday, | 4:43:14 | 4:43:17 | |
and of course the data contains very difficult news | 4:43:17 | 4:43:22 | |
because of the fall in the oil price - | 4:43:22 | 4:43:24 | |
and I don't think it's an irrelevant factor, | 4:43:24 | 4:43:26 | |
it's a very significant fall in the oil price... | 4:43:26 | 4:43:29 | |
Sorry, why do you think it's not irrelevant and she thinks it is? | 4:43:29 | 4:43:33 | |
Ruth can answer for herself, but I think it is not irrelevant | 4:43:33 | 4:43:37 | |
because the oil price has fallen very dramatically | 4:43:37 | 4:43:40 | |
compared to where it had been. | 4:43:40 | 4:43:42 | |
The issue is how we nurture and encourage the investment climate | 4:43:42 | 4:43:46 | |
to ensure we can make the most of the resource available to us. | 4:43:46 | 4:43:51 | |
If you look at the data - | 4:43:51 | 4:43:52 | |
and it's not my data, it's independent data - | 4:43:52 | 4:43:55 | |
it shows there is still a viable and strong North Sea oil and gas sector, | 4:43:55 | 4:44:00 | |
if we can get the financial arrangements | 4:44:00 | 4:44:02 | |
correct for that sector. | 4:44:02 | 4:44:03 | |
And also if it is supported by an effective and higher oil price, | 4:44:03 | 4:44:08 | |
because oil companies are struggling to prosper | 4:44:08 | 4:44:11 | |
on the type of oil price that we have at the present moment. | 4:44:11 | 4:44:15 | |
The key judgment people have to make about the figures yesterday | 4:44:15 | 4:44:19 | |
is whether we take one year and say, "Well, that's it," | 4:44:19 | 4:44:22 | |
or whether we look at a nation's finances | 4:44:22 | 4:44:24 | |
over a longer period of time. | 4:44:24 | 4:44:26 | |
Anyone who looks at a country's finances on a one-year basis | 4:44:26 | 4:44:30 | |
could look at the UK and Scotland in 2008 and say, | 4:44:30 | 4:44:33 | |
the deficit in the UK is double that of Scotland, | 4:44:33 | 4:44:36 | |
so it is all over for the United Kingdom. | 4:44:36 | 4:44:38 | |
That is the kind of rational that Ruth and her colleagues | 4:44:38 | 4:44:42 | |
are trying to get us to believe today. | 4:44:42 | 4:44:44 | |
So what I think we should take confidence from in Scotland | 4:44:44 | 4:44:47 | |
is that our economic performance is improving, | 4:44:47 | 4:44:50 | |
we have higher employment than the rest of the United Kingdom, | 4:44:50 | 4:44:53 | |
we have growing productivity in Scotland, | 4:44:53 | 4:44:55 | |
much higher than the rest of the UK in terms of growth and productivity, | 4:44:55 | 4:44:59 | |
and we are seeing a growth in onshore revenues in Scotland | 4:44:59 | 4:45:01 | |
which should give us confidence. | 4:45:01 | 4:45:03 | |
-John... -That is the heart of the argument | 4:45:03 | 4:45:05 | |
for economic self confidence here in Scotland. | 4:45:05 | 4:45:08 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE/ APPLAUSE | 4:45:08 | 4:45:11 | |
You go, Jane. | 4:45:12 | 4:45:14 | |
In terms of GDP, our deficit in Scotland is double that of the UK. | 4:45:14 | 4:45:17 | |
Our deficit is the largest in the whole of the European Union. | 4:45:17 | 4:45:20 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:45:20 | 4:45:22 | |
-Let her speak. -You've had your say. | 4:45:22 | 4:45:24 | |
I find it really sad, the figures yesterday, | 4:45:24 | 4:45:27 | |
because I am sitting on a UK panel, | 4:45:27 | 4:45:29 | |
we're all representing Scotland, | 4:45:29 | 4:45:31 | |
and actually, productivity and this deficit is so high. | 4:45:31 | 4:45:35 | |
What does it say to people in Scotland that want jobs? | 4:45:35 | 4:45:38 | |
Where are the jobs for people who have been made redundant in Dundee? | 4:45:38 | 4:45:42 | |
When are your government going to address this | 4:45:42 | 4:45:45 | |
instead of hiding behind these figures | 4:45:45 | 4:45:47 | |
which blow your case for independence apart completely? | 4:45:47 | 4:45:52 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:45:52 | 4:45:54 | |
Let's... Let's... | 4:45:54 | 4:45:56 | |
Let's take two of the things you have said. You asked about jobs. | 4:45:58 | 4:46:02 | |
Scotland has a higher employment rate today | 4:46:02 | 4:46:05 | |
than any other country in the UK. | 4:46:05 | 4:46:08 | |
That is a fact, so we are in a stronger employment position | 4:46:08 | 4:46:11 | |
-than any country in the UK. -John, you go and tell that | 4:46:11 | 4:46:14 | |
to people in Dundee who have just been made redundant. | 4:46:14 | 4:46:17 | |
Listen, I give every support and do everything I can | 4:46:17 | 4:46:21 | |
to boost the Scottish economy, | 4:46:21 | 4:46:23 | |
which is why we have a higher employment rate | 4:46:23 | 4:46:26 | |
than any part of the UK. | 4:46:26 | 4:46:28 | |
Labour politicians should occasionally celebrate that, | 4:46:28 | 4:46:31 | |
not condemn the government for delivering that in Scotland. | 4:46:31 | 4:46:34 | |
Secondly, on productivity there has been a 4.4% increase | 4:46:34 | 4:46:39 | |
in productivity in Scotland since the SNP government came to power. | 4:46:39 | 4:46:42 | |
Compared to 0.2% for the rest of the UK. | 4:46:42 | 4:46:45 | |
OK. All right. Let's not get into that detail. You, sir, up there. | 4:46:45 | 4:46:48 | |
I don't think the employment figures are true on what you are saying. | 4:46:48 | 4:46:52 | |
Because when you take the people who have been sanctioned, | 4:46:52 | 4:46:55 | |
in Britain but particularly in Scotland, | 4:46:55 | 4:46:58 | |
they just wipe those people off the books. | 4:46:58 | 4:47:02 | |
It is not more jobs being created. | 4:47:02 | 4:47:04 | |
You see people unemployed around Dundee, like the lady is saying, | 4:47:04 | 4:47:07 | |
and the people on the streets in Dundee, and homeless and all. | 4:47:07 | 4:47:11 | |
They are not employed, so where are you getting these jobs from | 4:47:11 | 4:47:14 | |
that your figures are dreaming up? They're not real jobs. | 4:47:14 | 4:47:17 | |
-They're off the books. -Willie Rennie. | 4:47:17 | 4:47:20 | |
I think John is being far too modest. | 4:47:20 | 4:47:23 | |
John predicted this would happen because he produced, | 4:47:23 | 4:47:27 | |
I don't know if you all remember, this secret Cabinet paper | 4:47:27 | 4:47:31 | |
which was subsequently published in the newspapers. | 4:47:31 | 4:47:35 | |
And it told us that Scotland's finances | 4:47:35 | 4:47:38 | |
would be prone to volatility | 4:47:38 | 4:47:40 | |
because of an oil price that may be volatile, | 4:47:40 | 4:47:43 | |
that the pensions issue would be a major concern, | 4:47:43 | 4:47:46 | |
that as a result there may be cuts to public services, cuts to jobs. | 4:47:46 | 4:47:51 | |
So John is being far too modest because he predicted this before. | 4:47:51 | 4:47:54 | |
-Then he spent the next two years trying to... -It might help | 4:47:54 | 4:47:57 | |
if you quote what I actually said, Willie. | 4:47:57 | 4:47:59 | |
Not what you've just made that up. | 4:47:59 | 4:48:00 | |
-You've just made that up. -Trying to... | 4:48:00 | 4:48:02 | |
You've made that up, I can assure you. | 4:48:02 | 4:48:04 | |
Hang on. Let's sort this out. He says you've made it up. | 4:48:04 | 4:48:07 | |
You predicted all those things. | 4:48:07 | 4:48:10 | |
-Hang on. He says you made it up. -Well, he's wrong. -No, no... | 4:48:10 | 4:48:13 | |
-This is John's modesty taking over again. -No, no... | 4:48:13 | 4:48:17 | |
He said it two years ago and spent the rest of the campaign dismissing | 4:48:17 | 4:48:21 | |
everything he was right about. | 4:48:21 | 4:48:23 | |
The argument I was putting forward | 4:48:23 | 4:48:26 | |
was the need for us to take long-term protection | 4:48:26 | 4:48:29 | |
to create an oil fund, like Norway, which is now worth £580 billion. | 4:48:29 | 4:48:32 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE | 4:48:32 | 4:48:35 | |
And we've got nothing to show for it in Scotland. | 4:48:35 | 4:48:38 | |
This is wonderful. | 4:48:38 | 4:48:39 | |
If everything is desperate, reach for the oil fund! | 4:48:39 | 4:48:42 | |
-The reality... -It's worth 580 billion in Norway! | 4:48:42 | 4:48:45 | |
Come on, John. What you would need... | 4:48:45 | 4:48:48 | |
What you would need is growth rates five times higher than China | 4:48:48 | 4:48:53 | |
in order to make up for this £15 billion deficit. | 4:48:53 | 4:48:57 | |
That is the scale of the challenge. We know about Chinese growth rates. | 4:48:57 | 4:49:02 | |
-They are not really real. -OK. | 4:49:02 | 4:49:04 | |
But John's growth rates are not real either. | 4:49:04 | 4:49:06 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:49:06 | 4:49:08 | |
Patrick Harvie. I will come to a member of the audience. | 4:49:08 | 4:49:11 | |
Until that little set to, | 4:49:11 | 4:49:12 | |
we were in real danger of having a thoughtful conversation! | 4:49:12 | 4:49:16 | |
Cathy's question is very clearly asking | 4:49:16 | 4:49:20 | |
whether the long-term case for independence | 4:49:20 | 4:49:23 | |
is effectively dead as a result of these figures. | 4:49:23 | 4:49:26 | |
I would say the SNP's case for independence is challenged, | 4:49:26 | 4:49:29 | |
but one of the reasons why the Greens never signed up | 4:49:29 | 4:49:32 | |
to the big book of answers in the White Paper | 4:49:32 | 4:49:34 | |
was that it was so heavily dependent on an oil-based future. | 4:49:34 | 4:49:40 | |
Greens see this as a challenge, | 4:49:40 | 4:49:42 | |
not just for Scotland but for all countries, | 4:49:42 | 4:49:45 | |
to break our over reliance on fossil fuels | 4:49:45 | 4:49:48 | |
before it is too late, not just for our climate | 4:49:48 | 4:49:52 | |
but for our economy as well. | 4:49:52 | 4:49:53 | |
This is a warning not just from climate change activists. | 4:49:53 | 4:49:56 | |
It came recently from the governor of the Bank of England, | 4:49:56 | 4:49:59 | |
demonstrating that our over reliance on fossil fuel, | 4:49:59 | 4:50:02 | |
an overvalued industry, | 4:50:02 | 4:50:04 | |
because we can't afford to burn everything we have found already, | 4:50:04 | 4:50:07 | |
this is a source of potential immense financial instability | 4:50:07 | 4:50:11 | |
for this country's economy. | 4:50:11 | 4:50:13 | |
Not just for areas like the Northeast, | 4:50:13 | 4:50:16 | |
which have a lot of direct dependence on oil and gas, | 4:50:16 | 4:50:18 | |
but on our whole economy as well. | 4:50:18 | 4:50:21 | |
So the challenge for us has to be | 4:50:21 | 4:50:23 | |
to find a break with that dead future | 4:50:23 | 4:50:25 | |
and invest in the alternative. | 4:50:25 | 4:50:28 | |
There are hundreds of thousands of jobs to be generated | 4:50:28 | 4:50:31 | |
in the long-term - | 4:50:31 | 4:50:32 | |
lasting, sustainable, well-paid jobs of the future. | 4:50:32 | 4:50:36 | |
Industries that can last, | 4:50:36 | 4:50:37 | |
not those that will be here today and gone tomorrow. | 4:50:37 | 4:50:40 | |
That is the challenge for Scotland. | 4:50:40 | 4:50:42 | |
I think we can meet that challenge in the context of independence | 4:50:42 | 4:50:45 | |
one day, as many other small, independent | 4:50:45 | 4:50:47 | |
northern European countries do, including those without oil. | 4:50:47 | 4:50:50 | |
But whether we do it within the UK | 4:50:50 | 4:50:52 | |
or outside of it as a strong independent country, | 4:50:52 | 4:50:55 | |
this is an urgent break we have to make in our economy | 4:50:55 | 4:50:58 | |
-because oil and gas is not our future. -Thank you. | 4:50:58 | 4:51:02 | |
APPLAUSE The man there. | 4:51:02 | 4:51:03 | |
Then I'll come to you, up there. | 4:51:03 | 4:51:06 | |
Yes, the man in the corner. | 4:51:06 | 4:51:07 | |
I think it's ridiculous to say that because of this black hole | 4:51:07 | 4:51:11 | |
that Scotland can't be independent. | 4:51:11 | 4:51:13 | |
The UK is like, £1.3 trillion in debt. It is ridiculous. | 4:51:13 | 4:51:16 | |
For David Cameron and George Osborne | 4:51:16 | 4:51:17 | |
to keep saying it's the last Labour government's fault, | 4:51:17 | 4:51:21 | |
if I had a pound for every time they have said that | 4:51:21 | 4:51:24 | |
I could probably pay for this black hole myself. | 4:51:24 | 4:51:27 | |
APPLAUSE Yes, you and then you. | 4:51:27 | 4:51:32 | |
I believe that Scotland needs to be led | 4:51:32 | 4:51:35 | |
without any more insecurity of referendums, | 4:51:35 | 4:51:37 | |
money being wasted on referendums. | 4:51:37 | 4:51:39 | |
Because if we were to invest that money in making Scotland great, | 4:51:39 | 4:51:43 | |
less people would want to leave Scotland, | 4:51:43 | 4:51:46 | |
rather than just Scotland leaving the UK or Europe. | 4:51:46 | 4:51:49 | |
APPLAUSE And you. | 4:51:49 | 4:51:51 | |
I despair, listening to this panel. | 4:51:51 | 4:51:55 | |
Every single one of you, what is the vision for the UK | 4:51:55 | 4:51:59 | |
in terms of taking forward finances? | 4:51:59 | 4:52:01 | |
Today, we have 1,500 jobs in Glasgow City Council, | 4:52:01 | 4:52:04 | |
jobs going in the NHS, jobs going in local authorities. | 4:52:04 | 4:52:08 | |
Everybody is sitting arguing amongst themselves. | 4:52:08 | 4:52:11 | |
What is your vision for the future to improve things? | 4:52:11 | 4:52:15 | |
Don't sit and argue. | 4:52:15 | 4:52:16 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:52:16 | 4:52:18 | |
I haven't brought Tim Stanley in, so I will. | 4:52:18 | 4:52:20 | |
Obviously, I hadn't spoken yet. | 4:52:20 | 4:52:22 | |
Let me give... As an Englishman, let me give my vision for Scotland. | 4:52:22 | 4:52:26 | |
It's... I bet you were waiting for that(!) | 4:52:26 | 4:52:30 | |
A very dangerous thing to do! | 4:52:30 | 4:52:32 | |
It's obvious that the SNP gambled on the oil price | 4:52:32 | 4:52:35 | |
remaining as high as it was so they could finance independence. | 4:52:35 | 4:52:41 | |
But I do hope we are not all overtaken | 4:52:41 | 4:52:44 | |
by a spirit of I told you so. | 4:52:44 | 4:52:46 | |
Partly because I think it is unhelpful, but also because, to me, | 4:52:46 | 4:52:51 | |
this shortfall and rising deficit | 4:52:51 | 4:52:53 | |
makes the positive case for unionism. | 4:52:53 | 4:52:56 | |
I am a believer in the old-fashioned principle | 4:52:56 | 4:52:59 | |
of Britain being one nation, | 4:52:59 | 4:53:01 | |
which means we are undivided by region, | 4:53:01 | 4:53:03 | |
or by class or language. | 4:53:03 | 4:53:05 | |
It means if one part of the country is running short of cash, | 4:53:05 | 4:53:09 | |
the other part steps in and helps out. | 4:53:09 | 4:53:11 | |
That, to me, is the principle of unionism, | 4:53:11 | 4:53:14 | |
the idea that we are a family | 4:53:14 | 4:53:16 | |
with collective responsibility for each other. | 4:53:16 | 4:53:20 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:53:20 | 4:53:23 | |
Sorry, you are shouting | 4:53:23 | 4:53:24 | |
and I don't normally bring in people who are shouting out | 4:53:24 | 4:53:28 | |
because it gets so noisy, but have a go. | 4:53:28 | 4:53:30 | |
-I have just relocated from the Lake District... -To Dundee? | 4:53:30 | 4:53:36 | |
To Dundee, yes. The reason I have done this, | 4:53:36 | 4:53:39 | |
as an Englishman with some Irish ancestry way back, | 4:53:39 | 4:53:42 | |
is because I can see things happening in Scotland | 4:53:42 | 4:53:46 | |
that thrill me, that excite me, | 4:53:46 | 4:53:48 | |
that make me feel this is a country going somewhere. | 4:53:48 | 4:53:52 | |
When you talk about... I know you're a member of... | 4:53:52 | 4:53:55 | |
probably a Tory sympathiser, | 4:53:55 | 4:53:56 | |
..when you talk about the Union helping people, | 4:53:56 | 4:53:59 | |
living in the Lake District | 4:53:59 | 4:54:01 | |
I felt like a colony of the south-east of England. | 4:54:01 | 4:54:03 | |
It seemed to be run for the City. | 4:54:03 | 4:54:05 | |
It was not run for the benefit of England, but for the south-east. | 4:54:07 | 4:54:12 | |
-Yes, but the south-east of England... -Let me finish. | 4:54:12 | 4:54:14 | |
..feels like a colony of the south-east of England. | 4:54:14 | 4:54:17 | |
We hate that as much. | 4:54:17 | 4:54:18 | |
But you're arguing for is voting for socialism, not independence. | 4:54:18 | 4:54:22 | |
Let me finish, please. | 4:54:22 | 4:54:24 | |
The point is that Scotland uniquely has the chance | 4:54:24 | 4:54:27 | |
to go forward on a smaller, flexible, dynamic basis. | 4:54:27 | 4:54:32 | |
I was delighted to get the chance to move here. | 4:54:32 | 4:54:34 | |
It is becoming a bit like Canada is | 4:54:34 | 4:54:36 | |
for the potential of being under Trump in the United States. | 4:54:36 | 4:54:40 | |
People who can are moving. | 4:54:40 | 4:54:41 | |
Ruth, do you want to answer? | 4:54:41 | 4:54:43 | |
Yeah, I'd like to answer this lady here. | 4:54:43 | 4:54:45 | |
I think there has been a lot of work | 4:54:45 | 4:54:47 | |
trying to make sure we have a positive economic vision | 4:54:47 | 4:54:50 | |
for the whole country. Things like reducing corporation tax | 4:54:50 | 4:54:53 | |
to encourage investment, | 4:54:53 | 4:54:54 | |
having the highest rate of growth in the last three years | 4:54:54 | 4:54:57 | |
out of all the G-7 nations. | 4:54:57 | 4:54:59 | |
That means doing things in Scotland. | 4:54:59 | 4:55:00 | |
I want to see more apprenticeships, not cutting 152,000 college places, | 4:55:00 | 4:55:05 | |
so we can train the next... | 4:55:05 | 4:55:07 | |
we can have more investment in vocational training | 4:55:07 | 4:55:10 | |
and train the next generation. | 4:55:10 | 4:55:11 | |
These are things we're trying to do | 4:55:11 | 4:55:13 | |
and I want to see happening in this country | 4:55:13 | 4:55:15 | |
to harness the growth we are seeing. | 4:55:15 | 4:55:17 | |
Yet more tax breaks for big businesses. | 4:55:17 | 4:55:19 | |
How different from the UK's agenda for the last 30 years! | 4:55:19 | 4:55:22 | |
You can see... consistent corporation tax cuts | 4:55:22 | 4:55:27 | |
under Tory, under Labour, under the coalition. | 4:55:27 | 4:55:30 | |
This has been a flat line corporation tax cut | 4:55:30 | 4:55:33 | |
and it fails to achieve a fair, equal and sustainable economy. | 4:55:33 | 4:55:36 | |
If you don't understand there's a link | 4:55:36 | 4:55:37 | |
between reducing corporation tax and encouraging business growth... | 4:55:37 | 4:55:40 | |
Seeing the biggest economic growth of any G-7 nation | 4:55:40 | 4:55:42 | |
-and more people in employment... -Half of them aren't paying taxes. | 4:55:42 | 4:55:45 | |
Here is something you will like... | 4:55:45 | 4:55:47 | |
Here is something you will like, | 4:55:47 | 4:55:48 | |
something very simple that could be done, which has been done, | 4:55:48 | 4:55:51 | |
which is put in a business champion at every embassy in the UK | 4:55:51 | 4:55:54 | |
around the world, to get businesses into other countries | 4:55:54 | 4:55:56 | |
and help them around the world. | 4:55:56 | 4:55:58 | |
These are things everyone can agree on, | 4:55:58 | 4:55:59 | |
positive visions and actions we can take to make sure | 4:55:59 | 4:56:02 | |
the next generation know there are jobs on the horizon. | 4:56:02 | 4:56:04 | |
While we flog off our local high street to the multinationals | 4:56:04 | 4:56:07 | |
and the big corporations, what a lot of nonsense. | 4:56:07 | 4:56:09 | |
We've got only a quarter of an hour left. | 4:56:09 | 4:56:11 | |
I'll take one or two more points on this and move on. | 4:56:11 | 4:56:13 | |
The man behind you in the white shirt. | 4:56:13 | 4:56:17 | |
When we're talking about financials and the money, etc, | 4:56:17 | 4:56:23 | |
one of the things I do find unusual | 4:56:23 | 4:56:25 | |
is that you are talking about "lies, damn lies, and statistics," | 4:56:25 | 4:56:30 | |
and then, frankly, figures put out by political parties. | 4:56:30 | 4:56:34 | |
Isn't it time we had, like in England, | 4:56:34 | 4:56:38 | |
a Scottish OBR so we could get some genuine figures | 4:56:38 | 4:56:42 | |
and we can make an informed decision? | 4:56:42 | 4:56:45 | |
We actually... I came from Parliament in Edinburgh tonight. | 4:56:45 | 4:56:48 | |
At 6:15pm tonight, Parliament legislated for the establishment of | 4:56:48 | 4:56:51 | |
the Scottish Fiscal Commission, which will do exactly what you say. | 4:56:51 | 4:56:54 | |
It would be independent of Parliament and government and give | 4:56:54 | 4:56:57 | |
-the statistics you are looking for. -There you have your answer. | 4:56:57 | 4:57:00 | |
I'll just come back to the questioner. | 4:57:00 | 4:57:02 | |
You've heard all this, what do you make of it? | 4:57:02 | 4:57:04 | |
Your question was whether | 4:57:04 | 4:57:05 | |
the economic case for independence was now dead. | 4:57:05 | 4:57:07 | |
As we say in Scotland, | 4:57:07 | 4:57:08 | |
the economic case for independence was hung on a shoogly peg. | 4:57:08 | 4:57:12 | |
Now it has fallen to the floor. | 4:57:12 | 4:57:13 | |
I'm horrified that the SNP want to try | 4:57:13 | 4:57:16 | |
and rehang that case on the very same peg. | 4:57:16 | 4:57:19 | |
Those of us who predicted this situation | 4:57:19 | 4:57:21 | |
were constantly told we were talking Scotland down, | 4:57:21 | 4:57:24 | |
we were scaremongering. I think all of us are owed an apology. | 4:57:24 | 4:57:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 4:57:28 | 4:57:31 | |
I'm going to go on to another question. | 4:57:31 | 4:57:33 | |
Otherwise we will stick on the same topic and I've other questions here. | 4:57:33 | 4:57:39 | |
But just to say, if you want to join us next week for Question Time, | 4:57:39 | 4:57:43 | |
we will be in Chelmsford. | 4:57:43 | 4:57:44 | |
Then we'll pause for Easter | 4:57:44 | 4:57:47 | |
and we'll be in Ilford, east London, after Easter. | 4:57:47 | 4:57:50 | |
So you can apply to our website, or you can call the number there. | 4:57:50 | 4:57:54 | |
We'll give that all again at the end. | 4:57:54 | 4:57:57 | |
Let me take this question from Laura Meach, please. | 4:57:57 | 4:58:00 | |
With the majority of NHS Trusts in Scotland | 4:58:00 | 4:58:03 | |
in financial difficulties, would the panel increase taxes | 4:58:03 | 4:58:07 | |
to safeguard the future of the NHS in Scotland? | 4:58:07 | 4:58:10 | |
That's very clear. It's true of the whole UK, | 4:58:10 | 4:58:12 | |
that there are problems and financial difficulties everywhere. | 4:58:12 | 4:58:15 | |
What would you do about it? Erm... Willie Rennie. | 4:58:15 | 4:58:19 | |
I think there is a desperate need for proper investment in the NHS. | 4:58:19 | 4:58:23 | |
There is no doubt about that. | 4:58:23 | 4:58:25 | |
We need to make sure we pass on all the budget consequentials | 4:58:25 | 4:58:29 | |
of the protected NHS budget within England. | 4:58:29 | 4:58:32 | |
We need to make sure that happens, to make sure we deal with the real | 4:58:32 | 4:58:36 | |
crisis we have in GP recruitment, | 4:58:36 | 4:58:38 | |
mental health services that are often neglected | 4:58:38 | 4:58:41 | |
need a proper boost and we also need to invest in social care. | 4:58:41 | 4:58:46 | |
We have a commitment to increased taxes because, unlike John, | 4:58:46 | 4:58:50 | |
who has been arguing for powers for 80 years | 4:58:50 | 4:58:53 | |
and is now not going to use them, | 4:58:53 | 4:58:54 | |
we are going to propose an increase in income tax for education, | 4:58:54 | 4:58:58 | |
because John's government is butchering the education system. | 4:58:58 | 4:59:03 | |
-He's cutting... -APPLAUSE | 4:59:03 | 4:59:05 | |
He's cutting 152,000 places from our colleges. | 4:59:05 | 4:59:08 | |
We are talking about the NHS, not about education. | 4:59:08 | 4:59:11 | |
You have to stick to the agenda the audience creates here. | 4:59:11 | 4:59:14 | |
-But the... -You can't just go off on a point that you want to talk about. | 4:59:14 | 4:59:18 | |
But the point also, David, was about increasing taxes | 4:59:20 | 4:59:25 | |
and I'm in favour of increasing taxes to invest in public services. | 4:59:25 | 4:59:29 | |
-I think that's absolutely the right thing to do. -Including NHS? | 4:59:29 | 4:59:33 | |
I've already set out what we want to do with the NHS, | 4:59:33 | 4:59:36 | |
but what we are proposing specifically | 4:59:36 | 4:59:38 | |
and this is why I deviated from your strict criteria, | 4:59:38 | 4:59:41 | |
is because we are in favour of increasing investment in education | 4:59:41 | 4:59:45 | |
because John's government's has butchered the education system. | 4:59:45 | 4:59:48 | |
-Jenny Marra. -Laura, I think you are right to be concerned about | 4:59:48 | 4:59:51 | |
NHS spending here in Scotland. | 4:59:51 | 4:59:53 | |
We know that here in Dundee, NHS Tayside have | 4:59:53 | 4:59:56 | |
got to make savings or cuts of £27 million over the next year | 4:59:56 | 5:00:01 | |
and that's brutal. | 5:00:01 | 5:00:03 | |
You will probably know as well as I do | 5:00:03 | 5:00:05 | |
that health services here in Dundee are really stretched. | 5:00:05 | 5:00:08 | |
We've got a GP surgery in Lochee that's on the brink of survival | 5:00:08 | 5:00:11 | |
because they can't attract. | 5:00:11 | 5:00:13 | |
Scottish Government is having real problems | 5:00:13 | 5:00:16 | |
attracting GPs to work in our surgeries | 5:00:16 | 5:00:19 | |
so there are some real problems. | 5:00:19 | 5:00:21 | |
One of the reasons we are in so much deficit in the NHS | 5:00:21 | 5:00:24 | |
is because of the SNP's reliance on agency nurses. | 5:00:24 | 5:00:28 | |
There's more and more private nurses being called in to staff our NHS. | 5:00:28 | 5:00:32 | |
That's something, that trend that really worries me. | 5:00:32 | 5:00:36 | |
Scottish Labour Party is committed going into this election | 5:00:36 | 5:00:39 | |
and I think, along with the Liberals, | 5:00:39 | 5:00:41 | |
we are the only party committed to saying, actually, | 5:00:41 | 5:00:44 | |
we think the people that can afford it should pay a little more | 5:00:44 | 5:00:48 | |
because the cuts coming from George Osborne | 5:00:48 | 5:00:51 | |
and from John Swinney... You know, the council cuts in Dundee... | 5:00:51 | 5:00:55 | |
200 council workers are losing their jobs in this city | 5:00:55 | 5:00:58 | |
because of these council cuts. | 5:00:58 | 5:01:00 | |
So we are saying quite clearly that we'd put a penny on income tax | 5:01:00 | 5:01:03 | |
and that people who can afford it should pay that little bit more | 5:01:03 | 5:01:06 | |
to deliver the public services that we need. | 5:01:06 | 5:01:08 | |
So you'd increase taxes for spending | 5:01:08 | 5:01:11 | |
-on the NHS or for education? -We have said the health budget | 5:01:11 | 5:01:14 | |
would be protected, completely, and, to be fair, | 5:01:14 | 5:01:17 | |
the Scottish Government have done that as well, | 5:01:17 | 5:01:20 | |
although I think there are other problems in the Health Service, | 5:01:20 | 5:01:23 | |
but we are saying that money, to go back to the other question, | 5:01:23 | 5:01:26 | |
should be invested in education and training | 5:01:26 | 5:01:29 | |
-because our economy badly needs it. -So you would be happy | 5:01:29 | 5:01:31 | |
to see Scotland have a different income tax rate | 5:01:31 | 5:01:34 | |
-from the rest of the UK? -Yes, well, we've... | 5:01:34 | 5:01:36 | |
You think you'd win votes on that? | 5:01:36 | 5:01:37 | |
Well, we think we will. | 5:01:37 | 5:01:39 | |
We think people recognise the problems across this country | 5:01:39 | 5:01:42 | |
in public services and those who can afford it | 5:01:42 | 5:01:44 | |
-are prepared to pay that little bit more. -Tim Stanley. | 5:01:44 | 5:01:46 | |
I admire any politician who has the guts to say they are prepared to | 5:01:51 | 5:01:54 | |
raise taxes a little bit to finance something, that's very admirable. | 5:01:54 | 5:01:57 | |
I would vote for it as a short-term measure. | 5:01:57 | 5:02:00 | |
In the long run, we have to wake up | 5:02:00 | 5:02:02 | |
to a structural problem facing the NHS, | 5:02:02 | 5:02:05 | |
which is that we as a population are getting older and | 5:02:05 | 5:02:09 | |
a great deal of the NHS's problems in many ways | 5:02:09 | 5:02:12 | |
are to do with failings in care for older people. | 5:02:12 | 5:02:15 | |
The NHS is going to have to change. | 5:02:15 | 5:02:19 | |
It will happen within a lifetime. | 5:02:19 | 5:02:21 | |
Politicians will resist it because they know the principle | 5:02:21 | 5:02:23 | |
behind the NHS is so popular, | 5:02:23 | 5:02:25 | |
it's famously described as Britain's last remaining national religion, | 5:02:25 | 5:02:28 | |
but something's got to change. | 5:02:28 | 5:02:29 | |
It might be that governments encourage people | 5:02:29 | 5:02:32 | |
to invest in old-age insurance, | 5:02:32 | 5:02:34 | |
or that some sort of top-up system is introduced, | 5:02:34 | 5:02:36 | |
so that people might pay extra for certain services. | 5:02:36 | 5:02:40 | |
Either way, the idea that we can continue to supply such a monopoly, | 5:02:40 | 5:02:44 | |
such a generous well-funded monopoly | 5:02:44 | 5:02:46 | |
that provides the kind of care people expect | 5:02:46 | 5:02:50 | |
on the model that we have right now of direct taxation, | 5:02:50 | 5:02:53 | |
I fear that's not sustainable. | 5:02:53 | 5:02:55 | |
In the long run, some party has got to build up the nerve | 5:02:55 | 5:02:59 | |
-to take that on and change it. -Fine. | 5:02:59 | 5:03:02 | |
John Swinney. APPLAUSE | 5:03:02 | 5:03:06 | |
Is it the SNP that will have the nerve to do what Tim suggests? | 5:03:06 | 5:03:09 | |
Let me say what the SNP is doing, | 5:03:09 | 5:03:11 | |
and we have responsibility for these things | 5:03:11 | 5:03:14 | |
and we take it seriously. | 5:03:14 | 5:03:15 | |
The health budget in Scotland is now £13 billion, | 5:03:15 | 5:03:18 | |
it's never been as high as that at any point in history in the past. | 5:03:18 | 5:03:22 | |
The level of employment in the National Health Service in Scotland | 5:03:25 | 5:03:28 | |
is higher than when the SNP Government came to office, | 5:03:28 | 5:03:31 | |
so we've invested to create that larger staff pool. | 5:03:31 | 5:03:34 | |
The choice I took in the budget, and it was my decision, | 5:03:34 | 5:03:38 | |
was not to use the power available to me to increase taxation | 5:03:38 | 5:03:41 | |
and the reason was not... | 5:03:41 | 5:03:42 | |
Jenny says it's because people who can afford to pay it | 5:03:42 | 5:03:45 | |
would have to pay more, it's people on £11,000. | 5:03:45 | 5:03:49 | |
-It's not... -Hear me out. | 5:03:49 | 5:03:53 | |
-John, that's not true. -People on £11,000 would have to pay more tax. | 5:03:53 | 5:03:57 | |
I don't think that is fair to ask people on that level of pay... | 5:03:57 | 5:04:00 | |
-That's simply not true. -..to pay more money into public expenditure. | 5:04:00 | 5:04:04 | |
That is not true, John. | 5:04:04 | 5:04:06 | |
John... Because the tax thresholds have been raised as a result of | 5:04:06 | 5:04:12 | |
the budget coming this year, | 5:04:12 | 5:04:14 | |
it will mean that you would have to earn over £19,000 | 5:04:14 | 5:04:17 | |
to pay a single penny more in tax as a result of these measures | 5:04:17 | 5:04:21 | |
and I think that's fair and reasonable. | 5:04:21 | 5:04:25 | |
Don't call yourself progressive. | 5:04:25 | 5:04:27 | |
People on that level of salary, | 5:04:27 | 5:04:30 | |
£11,000, would have to pay more in taxation and | 5:04:30 | 5:04:34 | |
I'm not prepared to do that. | 5:04:34 | 5:04:36 | |
If they don't have a job as a result of your cuts, | 5:04:36 | 5:04:39 | |
it doesn't matter because they won't be paying any tax anyway. | 5:04:39 | 5:04:43 | |
There are plenty of people on that level of salary who will have jobs | 5:04:43 | 5:04:47 | |
-and who would have to pay the tax. -Not if you carry on. -OK. | 5:04:47 | 5:04:51 | |
-The key thing is to shift... -Briefly, John, if you would. | 5:04:51 | 5:04:54 | |
..is to put investment in to shift the balance of care. | 5:04:54 | 5:04:58 | |
We have put £250 million | 5:04:58 | 5:05:01 | |
into integrating health and social care | 5:05:01 | 5:05:03 | |
to bring the services together | 5:05:03 | 5:05:05 | |
and shift the balance of care so people spend less time in hospital, | 5:05:05 | 5:05:09 | |
more time supported at home, getting the care they require. | 5:05:09 | 5:05:13 | |
That's the key reform we've undertaken. | 5:05:13 | 5:05:15 | |
We're further ahead than any other part of the UK | 5:05:15 | 5:05:17 | |
and our Health Service has been judged | 5:05:17 | 5:05:19 | |
to be the leading Health Service in the UK | 5:05:19 | 5:05:21 | |
effectively delivering health care services. | 5:05:21 | 5:05:23 | |
Described by the Prime Minister David Cameron | 5:05:23 | 5:05:25 | |
-as a litany of failure. -That's because... | 5:05:25 | 5:05:27 | |
-Why did he say that? -That's because | 5:05:27 | 5:05:29 | |
the staff in our National Health Service work phenomenally hard | 5:05:29 | 5:05:32 | |
to deliver the care that people in our country depend on. | 5:05:32 | 5:05:35 | |
What do you make of what David Cameron said | 5:05:35 | 5:05:37 | |
at the Scottish Tory conference, a litany of failure? | 5:05:37 | 5:05:39 | |
I thought it was an insult | 5:05:39 | 5:05:41 | |
to the National Health Service staff that work in our hospitals. | 5:05:41 | 5:05:44 | |
Ruth Davidson? | 5:05:44 | 5:05:46 | |
The gentleman there said he didn't like | 5:05:48 | 5:05:50 | |
"lies, damn lies and statistics". | 5:05:50 | 5:05:51 | |
I'll only put in one statistic, it comes from the independent | 5:05:51 | 5:05:55 | |
Scottish parliamentary information service. | 5:05:55 | 5:05:57 | |
They say between 2010 and 2015, | 5:05:57 | 5:06:00 | |
even though health spending in England went up by 7%, | 5:06:00 | 5:06:04 | |
a proportion of that is passed on through Barnett consequentials, | 5:06:04 | 5:06:07 | |
it only went up by 1% in Scotland. | 5:06:07 | 5:06:10 | |
The SNP said they would pass on all of the money that comes from down | 5:06:10 | 5:06:16 | |
-south, it would be passed on to the NHS and they didn't. -And we did. | 5:06:16 | 5:06:20 | |
-They didn't. The IFS say they didn't. -And we did. | 5:06:20 | 5:06:23 | |
-The independent health services... -Is all your politics tit for tat?! | 5:06:23 | 5:06:26 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE | 5:06:26 | 5:06:28 | |
It is when that's blatant nonsense. | 5:06:28 | 5:06:30 | |
Skimming... They've been skimming off the top | 5:06:30 | 5:06:32 | |
and taking it from healthcare for years. That's not my words. | 5:06:32 | 5:06:35 | |
That's the independent parliamentary information service. | 5:06:35 | 5:06:38 | |
The rise in Scotland and England was 1% between 2011-2013, | 5:06:38 | 5:06:41 | |
1% each according to the Treasury figures. | 5:06:41 | 5:06:44 | |
In terms of the budget that was passed on, | 5:06:44 | 5:06:46 | |
it was a 7% rise in England, 1% rise in Scotland. | 5:06:46 | 5:06:50 | |
We want every single penny passed on | 5:06:50 | 5:06:52 | |
and we don't think low-paid workers should have to pay | 5:06:52 | 5:06:55 | |
for the SNP skimming money off the top | 5:06:55 | 5:06:58 | |
for populist measures like White Papers and referendums, | 5:06:58 | 5:07:02 | |
it should all go on health. | 5:07:02 | 5:07:03 | |
-Patrick Harvie. -There will be a very dangerous consequence | 5:07:03 | 5:07:08 | |
if we think this problem, | 5:07:08 | 5:07:11 | |
and there are serious long-term challenges within the NHS | 5:07:11 | 5:07:13 | |
and the rest of our public services, | 5:07:13 | 5:07:15 | |
if we think that can be solved by passing on Barnett consequentials | 5:07:15 | 5:07:18 | |
simply by having the same spending pattern between departments | 5:07:18 | 5:07:23 | |
as the UK Government. | 5:07:23 | 5:07:24 | |
Because at the same time as we are attempting | 5:07:24 | 5:07:27 | |
to do this integration of social care and health, | 5:07:27 | 5:07:30 | |
which is the right thing to do, but it's challenging, | 5:07:30 | 5:07:33 | |
particularly when people are under pressure and under resourced. | 5:07:33 | 5:07:36 | |
At the same time, | 5:07:36 | 5:07:37 | |
the local councils which deliver those social care services | 5:07:37 | 5:07:40 | |
are having their budgets cut massively. | 5:07:40 | 5:07:42 | |
I think that we cannot protect our public services, | 5:07:42 | 5:07:46 | |
which we all of us depend on, | 5:07:46 | 5:07:47 | |
unless we are willing to raise the revenue | 5:07:47 | 5:07:49 | |
that's necessary to pay for them. | 5:07:49 | 5:07:51 | |
-And I think... -Why did you vote against it in the budget? | 5:07:51 | 5:07:54 | |
You had the chance to vote for an increase in taxation | 5:07:54 | 5:07:56 | |
and you declined. | 5:07:56 | 5:07:57 | |
All right, the person in the third row. | 5:07:57 | 5:07:59 | |
Please let me answer that allegation. | 5:07:59 | 5:08:02 | |
Only a couple of minutes left. Let's move on. Let's not have claim and counter claim. | 5:08:02 | 5:08:06 | |
It's all very well banding about statistics, | 5:08:06 | 5:08:08 | |
we want long-term reassurances | 5:08:08 | 5:08:10 | |
that we are not going to be threatened | 5:08:10 | 5:08:11 | |
with a privatised Health Service | 5:08:11 | 5:08:13 | |
and danger of TTIP and things like that in the future. | 5:08:13 | 5:08:16 | |
-Absolutely. -APPLAUSE | 5:08:16 | 5:08:19 | |
You, sir, in the blue, you wanted to speak. Just here. Yes. | 5:08:21 | 5:08:25 | |
Five minutes ago I heard a really interesting provocation | 5:08:25 | 5:08:28 | |
from Tim Stanley about taking a strategic view of the NHS | 5:08:28 | 5:08:30 | |
and I then listened to our same old politicians | 5:08:30 | 5:08:33 | |
bickering about who is spending more money, | 5:08:33 | 5:08:35 | |
putting more nurses out... | 5:08:35 | 5:08:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 5:08:37 | 5:08:40 | |
..and the inevitable obligatory pat on the head to | 5:08:40 | 5:08:43 | |
"aren't the nurses wonderful?" which any of them will say. | 5:08:43 | 5:08:46 | |
How about responding to Tim's provocation | 5:08:46 | 5:08:49 | |
and give us your strategic view...? | 5:08:49 | 5:08:51 | |
I'll respond to that if I may. | 5:08:51 | 5:08:52 | |
Laura Meach, I want to come back to you who asked the question. | 5:08:52 | 5:08:56 | |
You are saying the budgets are being protected. | 5:08:58 | 5:09:01 | |
However, NHS Tayside, as you said Jenny, | 5:09:01 | 5:09:03 | |
is £27 million in deficit this year. | 5:09:03 | 5:09:05 | |
Do you want to see taxes go up? | 5:09:05 | 5:09:07 | |
Not particularly. But, something has to be done. | 5:09:07 | 5:09:12 | |
-Absolutely. -Patrick Harvie. -I was disappointed with Willie there, | 5:09:12 | 5:09:17 | |
because the Liberal Democrats, the Greens | 5:09:17 | 5:09:19 | |
and the Labour Party in the most recent Scottish budget | 5:09:19 | 5:09:23 | |
all proposed ways of raising taxes more fairly. | 5:09:23 | 5:09:25 | |
We proposed different ways of doing it | 5:09:25 | 5:09:28 | |
and it's legitimate to have that debate | 5:09:28 | 5:09:30 | |
about different ways of doing it. | 5:09:30 | 5:09:32 | |
We think it can be done most appropriately at a local level | 5:09:32 | 5:09:35 | |
because we are talking about local services nine times out of ten | 5:09:35 | 5:09:39 | |
that are under the most pressure. | 5:09:39 | 5:09:41 | |
If we want a provocation about, | 5:09:41 | 5:09:43 | |
"Wouldn't it be great if those who can afford to pay more | 5:09:43 | 5:09:46 | |
"get to buy extra services from the NHS?" | 5:09:46 | 5:09:49 | |
I would reject that, absolutely. | 5:09:49 | 5:09:51 | |
I don't think we can afford to surrender the principle | 5:09:51 | 5:09:54 | |
that we are all of us collectively better off | 5:09:54 | 5:09:56 | |
if we pay for our healthcare on that collective basis. | 5:09:56 | 5:09:59 | |
Frankly, I can afford to pay a bit more tax, | 5:09:59 | 5:10:01 | |
an MSP or an MP can afford to pay a bit more, | 5:10:01 | 5:10:03 | |
the people who're sitting on property wealth | 5:10:03 | 5:10:06 | |
that's even more unfairly distributed than income in Scotland, | 5:10:06 | 5:10:09 | |
-can afford to pay a bit more tax... -Thank you. | 5:10:09 | 5:10:11 | |
APPLAUSE | 5:10:11 | 5:10:14 | |
One last point, the woman in the striped shirt. Yes. | 5:10:14 | 5:10:18 | |
Is it not also important to point out | 5:10:18 | 5:10:20 | |
that the World Health Organisation's said the UK no longer has an NHS, | 5:10:20 | 5:10:25 | |
that by their definition it's been abolished? | 5:10:25 | 5:10:27 | |
I think south of the border they may well be right. | 5:10:27 | 5:10:30 | |
OK. I think we have to stop because our hour is up. | 5:10:30 | 5:10:34 | |
Doesn't feel like it, does it? | 5:10:34 | 5:10:36 | |
And with you lot, we could go on a long time! | 5:10:36 | 5:10:39 | |
LAUGHTER | 5:10:39 | 5:10:41 | |
No, thank you all very much indeed. | 5:10:41 | 5:10:43 | |
Our hour is up. We are going to be in Chelmsford next week, | 5:10:43 | 5:10:47 | |
we've got the Education Secretary, Nicky Morgan, for the Tories and | 5:10:47 | 5:10:51 | |
the Shadow Defence Secretary, Emily Thornberry, for Labour. | 5:10:51 | 5:10:56 | |
Then there's a pause and then on April 7th, | 5:10:56 | 5:10:58 | |
we are going to be in Ilford in East London. | 5:10:58 | 5:11:01 | |
So if you can come to the audience in Chelmsford or in Ilford, | 5:11:01 | 5:11:03 | |
go to our website or call the number... | 5:11:03 | 5:11:07 | |
If you're listening to 5 Live, as you know, | 5:11:10 | 5:11:12 | |
this debate will go on into the night in Question Time Extra Time, | 5:11:12 | 5:11:16 | |
but here in Dundee, | 5:11:16 | 5:11:17 | |
my thanks to all six panellists who came here to take part | 5:11:17 | 5:11:22 | |
and to all of you in our audience | 5:11:22 | 5:11:24 | |
who played such a provocative role | 5:11:24 | 5:11:26 | |
in countering the many assertions you heard made. | 5:11:26 | 5:11:29 | |
I'm very grateful to you, thank you very much. | 5:11:29 | 5:11:31 | |
From Dundee, until next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight. | 5:11:31 | 5:11:35 |