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Tonight, we're in Liverpool. This is Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
A big welcome to our audience here, to all of you watching or listening | 0:00:13 | 0:00:16 | |
and to tonight's panel. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:18 | |
Conservative Justice Minister Dominic Raab. | 0:00:18 | 0:00:22 | |
Labour's Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer John McDonnell. | 0:00:22 | 0:00:26 | |
The Ukip MEP and Health Spokesman Louise Bours. | 0:00:26 | 0:00:30 | |
Guardian columnist Zoe Williams. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:32 | |
And the former England and Premier League footballer, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:35 | |
Jermaine Jenas. APPLAUSE | 0:00:35 | 0:00:38 | |
Great. Thank you very much. | 0:00:52 | 0:00:54 | |
A reminder, as always, if you want to join the debate, | 0:00:54 | 0:00:56 | |
use Facebook or Twitter. Our hashtag is BBCQT. | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
You can follow us at BBC Question Time. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:02 | |
If you want to text comments instead, | 0:01:02 | 0:01:04 | |
you go to 83981, | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
and pushing the Red Button will tell you what others are saying. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:09 | |
Our first question from James Mitchell, please. | 0:01:09 | 0:01:12 | |
Mr Mitchell. | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
Will the EU referendum be won based on who can scare the public more? | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
Will the referendum be won based on who can scare the public more? | 0:01:17 | 0:01:22 | |
That was one of the accusations made about scare tactics. Dominic Raab. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:26 | |
We've had a lot of scaremongering from those wanting to stay in. | 0:01:26 | 0:01:30 | |
All this talk about a leap into the darkness. | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
We need to debate the substance of this. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
I am in favour of leaving the European Union, | 0:01:35 | 0:01:39 | |
partly because I think, if I look at the effect | 0:01:39 | 0:01:41 | |
of pulling back democratic control over our laws and regulation, | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
we'll be able to have the right balance to promote business growth, | 0:01:45 | 0:01:51 | |
which is good for jobs, the right balance to make sure we have cheaper | 0:01:51 | 0:01:55 | |
energy bills, cheaper food bills, and also be freed up to trade more | 0:01:55 | 0:01:59 | |
energetically with the real growth areas like Latin America and Asia. | 0:01:59 | 0:02:04 | |
I also, frankly, whether on the left or the right, | 0:02:04 | 0:02:06 | |
I think you should have stronger democratic control | 0:02:06 | 0:02:09 | |
over the laws of the land. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:11 | |
60% of them are made or derive from the EU, | 0:02:11 | 0:02:15 | |
so I think the EU has really tested to breaking point | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
the democratic contract. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
I think if we go on down that path, we will only erode public trust | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
in our political class even more. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:27 | |
APPLAUSE The way that the... | 0:02:27 | 0:02:30 | |
Other government ministers who, like you, want out | 0:02:34 | 0:02:37 | |
have called the Government's own claims dodgy, baloney, miserable, | 0:02:37 | 0:02:42 | |
negative, fear-based - do you agree? | 0:02:42 | 0:02:44 | |
I choose my own words to describe it. | 0:02:44 | 0:02:46 | |
I think there is a lot of Project Fear coming out, | 0:02:46 | 0:02:50 | |
almost a scare story everyday. | 0:02:50 | 0:02:52 | |
I don't think anyone credibly believes it. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:54 | |
We heard this week the suggestion we'd be locked out of trade. | 0:02:54 | 0:02:58 | |
Actually, if you look at what Britain's former ambassador | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
to the EU, Lord Kerr, has said, | 0:03:01 | 0:03:03 | |
there's no doubt we'd keep having a strong trading | 0:03:03 | 0:03:05 | |
relationship with the EU if we were out. | 0:03:05 | 0:03:07 | |
The CBI said we'd have a high-level, ambitious free trade deal. | 0:03:07 | 0:03:10 | |
Even the Prime Minister said it's scaremongering to say otherwise. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
Let's talk about the facts and substance and enlighten the debate, | 0:03:13 | 0:03:16 | |
not try and cast a shadow over it. | 0:03:16 | 0:03:18 | |
Was Iain Duncan Smith, who's one of your Brexit ministers, | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
was he scaremongering when he said the UK would be more | 0:03:22 | 0:03:25 | |
vulnerable to a Paris-style terror attack if we stayed in the EU? | 0:03:25 | 0:03:30 | |
-Is that true? -There is a real issue around border controls. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:34 | |
If you look at what Rob Wainwright, who's the head of Europol has said, | 0:03:34 | 0:03:37 | |
he says we've got 5,000 terrorist suspects, | 0:03:37 | 0:03:40 | |
or people who have been to terrorist camps, | 0:03:40 | 0:03:42 | |
who have been out there and have come back, | 0:03:42 | 0:03:45 | |
and they're flowing freely - or at least potentially - | 0:03:45 | 0:03:47 | |
because we haven't got control of our borders. | 0:03:47 | 0:03:49 | |
I think the border control issue | 0:03:49 | 0:03:50 | |
does have an implication for security, yes. | 0:03:50 | 0:03:52 | |
OK. John McDonnell. | 0:03:52 | 0:03:54 | |
I just think both sides now should just calm down a bit. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:59 | |
Most of us want a sensible, rational debate and discussion. | 0:03:59 | 0:04:02 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:04:02 | 0:04:04 | |
I don't think people should be frightened into voting either way. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:14 | |
I voted against joining the common market. | 0:04:14 | 0:04:17 | |
I'm old enough to have had a vote originally. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:19 | |
I voted against going to the common market. | 0:04:19 | 0:04:21 | |
But the longer the European Union has developed, | 0:04:21 | 0:04:23 | |
I have come to a view that in the short term, | 0:04:23 | 0:04:25 | |
because of the fragility of our economy, | 0:04:25 | 0:04:28 | |
withdrawal would set us backwards. | 0:04:28 | 0:04:31 | |
Withdrawal from a market that almost 50% of our trade is with | 0:04:31 | 0:04:35 | |
would destabilise our economy when we are at a fragile position. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:39 | |
I want to move the debate on into... | 0:04:39 | 0:04:42 | |
I think we should have a longer-term vision for Europe. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:46 | |
I think the key issues that we face in the 21st century, | 0:04:46 | 0:04:49 | |
we have to deal with on an international level | 0:04:49 | 0:04:51 | |
across Europe. | 0:04:51 | 0:04:52 | |
If you look at what those key issues are, | 0:04:52 | 0:04:56 | |
they are about peace, to be frank. | 0:04:56 | 0:04:58 | |
People just accept peace for granted within Europe. | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
It's only 70 years ago my father was in the British Army. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
Before that, my grandfather was in the First World War. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
Europe has secured peace, | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
and by including more and more states in the EU, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:12 | |
we consolidate that peace. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:15 | |
Trying to work out where you stand on this. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:17 | |
You said something rather interesting. | 0:05:17 | 0:05:19 | |
You said in the short term, we should stay. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:21 | |
Do you mean in the long term, Labour policy would be to pull out? | 0:05:21 | 0:05:25 | |
I'm trying to say two things. | 0:05:25 | 0:05:26 | |
One is, in the short term, there are risks. | 0:05:26 | 0:05:29 | |
-Are you going to vote in or out? -I'm going to vote in. | 0:05:29 | 0:05:33 | |
Let me finish my point, David. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:35 | |
In the long term, we have to pitch this debate on the long-term future | 0:05:35 | 0:05:40 | |
of our country and Europe. | 0:05:40 | 0:05:41 | |
The long-term advantages are these - | 0:05:41 | 0:05:44 | |
that we continue to secure peace. | 0:05:44 | 0:05:46 | |
The big issue facing us is climate change, | 0:05:46 | 0:05:49 | |
we can only tackle that on a European basis and globally. | 0:05:49 | 0:05:52 | |
In addition to that, mass migration. | 0:05:52 | 0:05:54 | |
We've seen the problems we've got now, | 0:05:54 | 0:05:56 | |
we can only do that through co-operation. | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
Also, I have to say as well, | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
this argument we've ceded sovereignty | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
to European institutions, | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
we have ceded sovereignty to multinational corporations. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:08 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
The only way we can tackle them and bring them under some form of | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
democratic control, including making sure they pay tax, | 0:06:14 | 0:06:17 | |
is on a European scale. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:19 | |
On those bases, both short-term and long-term, | 0:06:19 | 0:06:22 | |
-my view is that we remain in. -OK. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:24 | |
APPLAUSE You, sir. The man with spectacles. | 0:06:24 | 0:06:28 | |
John, you say you want to stay in the European Union | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
to give more democratic control over business. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:35 | |
But whilst we are within the European Union, | 0:06:35 | 0:06:38 | |
it is illegal to expand state ownership of business. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:41 | |
How does that aid democratic control of business? | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
That's a great question. | 0:06:44 | 0:06:46 | |
If we stay in, we've got to have our reform agenda. | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
What's interesting, right across Europe now, | 0:06:49 | 0:06:51 | |
we are working with socialists, social democratic | 0:06:51 | 0:06:54 | |
and other progressive parties to develop that reform agenda, | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
which means ensuring more democratic control at a local level - | 0:06:57 | 0:07:01 | |
subsidiarity really works, but also coming to common agreements. | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
How we democratically control, for example, the flow of capital, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:08 | |
ensuring we get the long-term investment that we need | 0:07:08 | 0:07:10 | |
-that shares prosperity right across Europe. -All right. | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
-We can only do that on a European basis. -Jermaine. | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
Do you think the parties are trying to scare the public on how to vote? | 0:07:16 | 0:07:20 | |
I do think there is an element of scaremongering. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:24 | |
My position on this is I can't make an educated decision, | 0:07:24 | 0:07:29 | |
based on I don't feel I'm being given enough facts | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
one way or another. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:34 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:34 | 0:07:36 | |
It's hard enough as it is. | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
Then you've got the Boris situation with Cameron and the squabbling. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:47 | |
It's like you're getting pulled from pillar to post. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:49 | |
The scaremongering tactics, if I can use a footballing phrase, | 0:07:49 | 0:07:53 | |
this has been used by footballers and agents for years. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
You get a top player at a club, Wayne Rooney, for example, | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
and he wants a new deal at that club. | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
The agent will go to Real Madrid, or to Liverpool and he'll go, | 0:08:02 | 0:08:05 | |
"Right, get interested in our player..." | 0:08:05 | 0:08:07 | |
And he will almost force Manchester United's hand to make sure | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
he gets the deal he wants. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:12 | |
It's no different, really, what they're doing. | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
In politics, who plays which part? Who is your Wayne Rooney? | 0:08:16 | 0:08:20 | |
-I'm not going down that road. -LAUGHTER | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
-OK. Hold on a second... -Jermaine has made a good point. | 0:08:24 | 0:08:27 | |
We've been dragged into this issue | 0:08:27 | 0:08:29 | |
over an issue of Conservative leadership. | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
I don't think that's the main issue. That's what's happening. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:35 | |
We've seen a fight between Boris and Osborne | 0:08:35 | 0:08:37 | |
which is detracting from a proper debate that we should be having, | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
-a rational debate. -APPLAUSE | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
In fairness, whether your view is that you want state ownership or, | 0:08:44 | 0:08:47 | |
like me, you want more of a free enterprise model, | 0:08:47 | 0:08:50 | |
the truth is it's only this Government that has given you, | 0:08:50 | 0:08:54 | |
whether in this room or watching at home, a say, a voice, the choice. | 0:08:54 | 0:08:58 | |
I think it's a once in a generation lifetime. | 0:08:58 | 0:09:00 | |
I think John and I and all the panellists want to shed light on it, | 0:09:00 | 0:09:03 | |
not to spread the shade of darkness and the rest of it. | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
Actually, in the last analysis, you are the ones that have the say. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
In fact, I disagree with the Prime Minister on this | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
but I would pay huge credit to him | 0:09:13 | 0:09:15 | |
for giving the British people a say after 40 years. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:18 | |
APPLAUSE OK. You, sir. | 0:09:18 | 0:09:21 | |
With all the scaremongering that's going on in the media about this, | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
I don't see how the general public can make an informed decision. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
You've seen Hollande's comments today about leaving the EU, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:34 | |
saying the economic impact that will have, | 0:09:34 | 0:09:37 | |
but reading articles in the newspapers, | 0:09:37 | 0:09:39 | |
there do not seem to be any facts. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:41 | |
It's both sides saying different things | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
and you don't know who to believe. | 0:09:44 | 0:09:46 | |
When you say you don't know who to believe, | 0:09:46 | 0:09:48 | |
you think the arguments are not meeting each other? | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
-Everybody just says what they think... -Yeah. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:53 | |
..will win you over and in fact, what you are saying is | 0:09:53 | 0:09:56 | |
it's not winning you over because you don't believe any of them. | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
I don't believe what they're saying cos I think they've got | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
-their own agendas and I don't know how to vote. -Zoe Williams. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:07 | |
Not only are both sides using scare tactics, I think both sides | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
are relying over heavily on economic arguments they can't justify. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:15 | |
They are making arguments like, | 0:10:15 | 0:10:17 | |
"Do this because otherwise it will cost you more." | 0:10:17 | 0:10:20 | |
"No, do this because otherwise, it will cost you more that way." | 0:10:20 | 0:10:22 | |
It's not only incredible, you know, you don't really believe it, | 0:10:22 | 0:10:26 | |
but it's really insulting. | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
Most of us don't make choices based on how much a tin of bean costs - | 0:10:28 | 0:10:32 | |
how much a tin of beans costs. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:33 | |
It's very insulting and very uninspiring. | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
At the moment, I think Brexit are making a slightly better hope case, | 0:10:35 | 0:10:40 | |
while the kind of "ins" are making a kind of fear case. | 0:10:40 | 0:10:44 | |
I would like to see the "in" side | 0:10:44 | 0:10:46 | |
making a better case for a hopeful Europe. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:50 | |
Even though you're right that it is there for peace, | 0:10:50 | 0:10:53 | |
to combat climate change, | 0:10:53 | 0:10:55 | |
to deal with mass migration in a cooperative way, | 0:10:55 | 0:10:57 | |
you've got to make a case for something good happening | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
as a result of Europe. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:02 | |
I'd say it's good to be part of Europe because you can build | 0:11:02 | 0:11:04 | |
a renewables programme that you share across the continent. | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
It's good to be part of Europe | 0:11:07 | 0:11:08 | |
because it's the most dense knowledge-based economy | 0:11:08 | 0:11:11 | |
with the best universities, | 0:11:11 | 0:11:12 | |
and we share that infrastructure and it's ours to use. | 0:11:12 | 0:11:16 | |
There are really good hope cases to be made, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:18 | |
but obviously only if you are in and lobbying for those cases. | 0:11:18 | 0:11:22 | |
Whenever I write that, somebody always says, | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
"Hang on, you want us to believe in a Europe that doesn't exist. | 0:11:24 | 0:11:27 | |
"That's completely the opposite to the way it is now | 0:11:27 | 0:11:29 | |
"in order that we vote for it. | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
"In order that we change it even though we never do." | 0:11:31 | 0:11:33 | |
And I'm like, "Well, yeah, basically." | 0:11:33 | 0:11:35 | |
APPLAUSE Louise Bours. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
In answer to the first question, I think absolutely. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:44 | |
Scare tactics will be used and I have no doubt | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
they will continue to be used right up until the 23rd of June. | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
I hope the Brexit campaign doesn't go down the route that | 0:11:51 | 0:11:56 | |
the "in" campaign seem to be going down at the moment, | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
which is just fraught with huge, | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
mammoth scare stories on a daily basis. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:06 | |
I think several panellists and several members of the audience | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
have already alluded to it, that what's happening is | 0:12:09 | 0:12:13 | |
there's no tangible facts being pushed out there by either side. | 0:12:13 | 0:12:19 | |
What we have is politicians who are just spouting lots of statistics | 0:12:19 | 0:12:24 | |
that back up their arguments, | 0:12:24 | 0:12:26 | |
and we all know statistics can be made to back up anything | 0:12:26 | 0:12:29 | |
we want to say, instead of making a positive case for what | 0:12:29 | 0:12:33 | |
a fantastic country this is. | 0:12:33 | 0:12:36 | |
We're the fifth-largest economy in the world. | 0:12:36 | 0:12:38 | |
If you think in terms of our soft power across the globe, | 0:12:39 | 0:12:43 | |
in terms of football, sport, music, arts, culture, | 0:12:43 | 0:12:47 | |
we have tremendous influence across the world. | 0:12:47 | 0:12:51 | |
We contribute massively to that soft power economy. | 0:12:51 | 0:12:54 | |
I think those kind of things are not talked about enough. | 0:12:54 | 0:12:58 | |
In reference to a point John made, it certainly isn't | 0:12:58 | 0:13:01 | |
the European Union that have kept peace in Europe. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
-It is Nato. -APPLAUSE | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
I think we ought to acknowledge that. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:08 | |
Louise, if it's so simple to prescribe how the argument | 0:13:11 | 0:13:15 | |
should be fought by people like you on Brexit, | 0:13:15 | 0:13:18 | |
why can't you get your campaign together? | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
You've got two campaigns that seem to spend most of their time | 0:13:20 | 0:13:23 | |
sniping at each other. | 0:13:23 | 0:13:24 | |
Absolutely, that's a very, very bad thing. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:27 | |
That's a very bad show, and I wish the people | 0:13:27 | 0:13:31 | |
at the head of these campaigns would put their egos aside | 0:13:31 | 0:13:33 | |
and come together for the good of the Brexit campaign, | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
and I'm hopeful that will happen. | 0:13:37 | 0:13:39 | |
What do you have against each other? I don't know which side you're on. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
-You're on the Farage side? -I'm not on any side. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:45 | |
I'm not on either side. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
I want a campaign that is going to give people...not facts | 0:13:47 | 0:13:50 | |
and anacronyms and mad statistics. | 0:13:50 | 0:13:52 | |
I want to see the fundamental case for Europe. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
What a great country we are, | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
supporting our SMEs, supporting business in this country, | 0:13:57 | 0:14:01 | |
entrepreneurship, inventiveness, | 0:14:01 | 0:14:03 | |
all these fantastic things we give to the world. | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
It is a marvellous place to live. We're very lucky. | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
And that is the message I want to give. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:10 | |
OK. The woman at the very back. On the right. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:13 | |
I just wanted to say we need clarification | 0:14:13 | 0:14:15 | |
on the main salient facts. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:18 | |
For example, in October we've got the relaxation of the visas | 0:14:18 | 0:14:24 | |
for the Turkish nationals. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
Does that mean we're going to get an influx | 0:14:27 | 0:14:29 | |
of migrant workers from Turkey? | 0:14:29 | 0:14:32 | |
Have we got any say in that? Can we say no? | 0:14:32 | 0:14:34 | |
We have to bear in mind that one of those... | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
You picked up a really, really interesting point. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:39 | |
One of the things everybody is pushing for, including Mr Cameron, | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
is for Turkey to be a full member of the European Union, | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
and that opens our borders to another 75 million people. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:49 | |
You know, we have to look at our infrastructure and public services | 0:14:49 | 0:14:53 | |
which, in many places here in the north-west, are at capacity. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:57 | |
Could we cope with that? | 0:14:57 | 0:14:59 | |
Let's hear from some more members of the audience. | 0:14:59 | 0:15:01 | |
The man in the blue shirt? Then I'll come over to you. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:03 | |
Jermaine was talking about facts | 0:15:03 | 0:15:05 | |
and John's sat there as a Labour representative. | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
If you look at Stuart Rose yesterday | 0:15:09 | 0:15:11 | |
and what he told to the Treasury Select Committee | 0:15:11 | 0:15:14 | |
where he confirmed that the Bank of England report | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
that stated how immigration had impacted | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
on the low and semi-skilled workers, | 0:15:20 | 0:15:24 | |
six million workers in this country | 0:15:24 | 0:15:26 | |
that have been affected by immigration | 0:15:26 | 0:15:29 | |
have got a reduced standard of living. | 0:15:29 | 0:15:31 | |
How can a Labour representative sit there and say | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
you're going to vote to stay in when it's having such | 0:15:34 | 0:15:37 | |
a dramatic effect on so many people? | 0:15:37 | 0:15:40 | |
-Six million people in this country. -APPLAUSE | 0:15:40 | 0:15:45 | |
What do you think of what Lord Rose in effect said, therefore, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
was if you vote to leave the EU, | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
wages will go up for six million people. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
-Do you think he meant to say that? -Yes. | 0:15:52 | 0:15:54 | |
-He clarified his comments, yes. -He explained it's supply and demand. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:58 | |
For years now, the left has been saying the same thing, you know. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:03 | |
Immigration is good, it creates jobs. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:05 | |
Yes, it does, that much is true. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
But the wage compression effect is massive | 0:16:08 | 0:16:10 | |
so it makes you wonder, then, for the likes of Stuart Rose | 0:16:10 | 0:16:13 | |
and all of the people writing these letters from the FTSE, | 0:16:13 | 0:16:16 | |
what do they really care about? | 0:16:16 | 0:16:18 | |
The wages of British people or profits that can be made | 0:16:18 | 0:16:20 | |
-for these multinational companies? -Big business. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:23 | |
APPLAUSE OK. Over to you up there. | 0:16:23 | 0:16:25 | |
No, behind you. The man behind you. Then I will come to you. | 0:16:26 | 0:16:29 | |
I think there's a lot of confusing facts out there at the minute | 0:16:29 | 0:16:33 | |
but I think what's definitely clear is the Eurozone's failed. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
Isn't it time to get hold of our currency | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
and get control of our economy before we press on into the world? | 0:16:39 | 0:16:44 | |
Just get Britain sorted first and then... | 0:16:44 | 0:16:47 | |
-You are a Brexiter? -I am. -The woman in front of you? | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
I am a Brexiter as well. | 0:16:51 | 0:16:53 | |
If you look at what's happened with the refugee crisis | 0:16:53 | 0:16:56 | |
over the last six months, | 0:16:56 | 0:16:58 | |
how am I supposed to believe in a Europe when all the countries | 0:16:58 | 0:17:01 | |
are squabbling about what to do with the refugee crisis? | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
They can't decide what's best for Europe, | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
so how are they going to decide what's best for us? | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
And how am I supposed to think it's good to stay in? | 0:17:09 | 0:17:11 | |
OK. We've got a question about that which I'll take in a moment. | 0:17:11 | 0:17:14 | |
But let's hear from you, sir. Over there. And you in the front. | 0:17:14 | 0:17:18 | |
I'll take you in the front on the second row first. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:21 | |
Then you behind. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:23 | |
I am very much divided over this issue | 0:17:23 | 0:17:25 | |
but I'm very confused about Labour's position. | 0:17:25 | 0:17:27 | |
I was watching Prime Minister's Questions yesterday | 0:17:27 | 0:17:29 | |
and as far as I'm concerned, it looks like Jeremy Corbyn | 0:17:29 | 0:17:32 | |
and the whole of the frontbench just want this issue to go away | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
because it's not on their agenda. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:37 | |
John McDonnell, what do you say to that? | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
Let me add to that what the leader of the Green Party said today, | 0:17:39 | 0:17:42 | |
that she was concerned by the relative silence | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
from the Labour leadership on the EU referendum. | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
Why is this? | 0:17:48 | 0:17:49 | |
It's not silence, and to be frank, the focus of the debate | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
seems to have been divisions within the Conservative Party so far. | 0:17:51 | 0:17:54 | |
Now is the time, you're right, now's the time for Labour itself... | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
And Alan Johnson's been doing various meetings | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
around the country expressing our policy, but you're right, | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
now is the time for us to actually come out a bit more | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
in terms of explaining our views. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:07 | |
The view is that we want to transform Europe. | 0:18:07 | 0:18:09 | |
We don't want the EU as it now is, we have our own reform agenda | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
and it's about protecting wages, | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
making sure we enforce trade union rights. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
The benefits we have had so far | 0:18:17 | 0:18:19 | |
is actually our campaigns in Europe have developed issues | 0:18:19 | 0:18:22 | |
around maternity and paternity leave, protection for workers, | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
which this Government's tried to undermine. | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
So we have used Europe as the vehicle to protect that. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
Why haven't you been campaigning on this? | 0:18:30 | 0:18:33 | |
Three weeks have gone by. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:34 | |
Did you decide not to and to let the Tories fight each other? | 0:18:34 | 0:18:37 | |
No. Enjoyable though that might have been at times, but no. Not at all. | 0:18:37 | 0:18:42 | |
Are you saying Jeremy Corbyn and you will come out fighting? | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
We've been out there but we've been crowded out of the media | 0:18:45 | 0:18:48 | |
because of what's happened in the Tory Party. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:50 | |
We will be out there on the stump, arguing our case. | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
Our case is... We've got Europhiles and Europhobes. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:57 | |
Those who accept everything about Europe that is good, | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
those who detest Europe. | 0:19:00 | 0:19:02 | |
Our decision is a rational one, | 0:19:02 | 0:19:04 | |
which is we believe it's in the best interests to remain within the EU | 0:19:04 | 0:19:08 | |
but there are real issues that have to be addressed | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
and we have got to develop a reform agenda | 0:19:12 | 0:19:14 | |
and that is about protecting wages. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
It's about developing trade union rights and long-term investment. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:21 | |
It's about having, exactly as Zoe said, | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
a real vision for the future, one of hope. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:25 | |
-It does exist... -Hold on. APPLAUSE | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
That agenda is being developed right across Europe with other... | 0:19:29 | 0:19:34 | |
With respect, I think we've got the point twice now. | 0:19:34 | 0:19:36 | |
Dominic Raab, do you want to comment on what John said? | 0:19:36 | 0:19:39 | |
I think the truth is there are different views | 0:19:39 | 0:19:41 | |
within the Labour Party and that's respectable. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
We're not clones in the Tory party. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:44 | |
They're not clones in the Labour Party. | 0:19:44 | 0:19:46 | |
Frank Field, one of the most respected Labour figures, | 0:19:46 | 0:19:49 | |
has talked very much about the social impact of immigration | 0:19:49 | 0:19:53 | |
and that's been the key reason, the lack of border controls, | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
why he's come out for Brexit. | 0:19:56 | 0:19:58 | |
I wondered if I may pick up on the point the gentleman made | 0:19:58 | 0:20:01 | |
about businesses and Lord Rose's comments. | 0:20:01 | 0:20:03 | |
The key thing about the EU is we get huge amounts of red tape | 0:20:03 | 0:20:07 | |
but the big businesses with the big HR departments | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
and lawyers are much better placed to deal with it. | 0:20:10 | 0:20:12 | |
The commission's own advisory group say that their red tape | 0:20:12 | 0:20:15 | |
hits small businesses ten times harder than big businesses. | 0:20:15 | 0:20:19 | |
Up here in the north-west, | 0:20:19 | 0:20:20 | |
99% of the firms are small businesses | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
and two-thirds of employment is through small businesses | 0:20:23 | 0:20:26 | |
so do you want to stick up for the big corporations | 0:20:26 | 0:20:28 | |
in hock with the EU? | 0:20:28 | 0:20:29 | |
Or stand up for the little guy, the worker and the small businesses? | 0:20:29 | 0:20:33 | |
Are we throwing light on this issue? APPLAUSE | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
What? Shaking your heads. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
The man up there. You, sir, with the glasses? Yes. | 0:20:39 | 0:20:41 | |
I think we're skirting around the major issue here | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
which is democracy. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
British democracy is a beacon around the world and the European Union | 0:20:46 | 0:20:50 | |
is inherently undemocratic, the way it works. | 0:20:50 | 0:20:52 | |
This is the last chance we are going to get to vote on this | 0:20:52 | 0:20:55 | |
for a long, long time. | 0:20:55 | 0:20:57 | |
It's really important that people realise that democracy | 0:20:57 | 0:20:59 | |
is at the heart of the election here. | 0:20:59 | 0:21:01 | |
APPLAUSE OK. The woman in the second row? | 0:21:01 | 0:21:04 | |
John McDonnell keeps talking about the reform agenda | 0:21:05 | 0:21:08 | |
and isn't the whole point that attempts at reform... | 0:21:08 | 0:21:12 | |
Where is your potency to have reform within the current EU system? | 0:21:12 | 0:21:17 | |
OK. Leave that as a question. | 0:21:17 | 0:21:19 | |
-And the man behind? -On a similar theme, | 0:21:19 | 0:21:22 | |
how long would you allow for this reform agenda, you know? | 0:21:22 | 0:21:26 | |
If you are going to allow one? | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
-If you vote to stay in, how long would you allow? -Yes. | 0:21:29 | 0:21:31 | |
It... Sorry. | 0:21:31 | 0:21:33 | |
Look. I've got a problem with this democratic thing. | 0:21:33 | 0:21:36 | |
There is a democratic deficit in Europe, for sure. | 0:21:36 | 0:21:38 | |
Nobody would say it's perfect. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:40 | |
Nobody does say it's perfect, except for the "in" campaign, | 0:21:40 | 0:21:43 | |
which I think is making a mistake. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:45 | |
When you say it's a democratic deficit, | 0:21:45 | 0:21:47 | |
you've got to look at something like the environment. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
The European Union, over the past 20 years, | 0:21:49 | 0:21:51 | |
has acted almost as an environmental union. | 0:21:51 | 0:21:53 | |
Everybody said we want this for the environment - | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
clean beaches, clean air, and Europe brought that into play and did it | 0:21:56 | 0:21:59 | |
with very, very slow laws which are very difficult to unpick. | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
Compare that to the way the British governments work, | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
the Government will say hug a husky... | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
No, hang on a sec. A hoodie. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:08 | |
No, a husky...one week and then come in, | 0:22:08 | 0:22:11 | |
suddenly the renewables programme is pulled back, | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
suddenly renewables are back on the table, | 0:22:14 | 0:22:15 | |
suddenly their commitments are this, then not this... | 0:22:15 | 0:22:19 | |
You see a huge amount of tegiversation | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
with national governments which bears no relation | 0:22:21 | 0:22:23 | |
to the things that we've democratically asked for. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:25 | |
So the idea that just by being kind of outside Europe we'll get | 0:22:25 | 0:22:30 | |
the democracy that we deserve, I think, is wrong. | 0:22:30 | 0:22:32 | |
APPLAUSE OK. I'm going to move on. | 0:22:32 | 0:22:35 | |
Each week we do quite a substantial chunk on this, | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
but I want to pick up the question that a woman up there put | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
and Catherine Boots has it here. Yes, Catherine. | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
Has the migrant crisis been mishandled by European countries? | 0:22:45 | 0:22:53 | |
Has the migrant crisis been mishandled? Louise Bours? | 0:22:53 | 0:22:55 | |
Absolutely. We had, at the beginning of it, Angela Merkel. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
I'm sure you'll all remember Angela Merkel | 0:22:59 | 0:23:02 | |
basically saying, "Everyone, come. The doors are open." | 0:23:02 | 0:23:07 | |
Then today, or yesterday...today, I think it was, | 0:23:07 | 0:23:11 | |
we had Donald Tusk, the President of the European Council, | 0:23:11 | 0:23:16 | |
saying, "Don't come, it's closed. You cannot come." | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
So we've had this huge open-arm invitation | 0:23:20 | 0:23:24 | |
and now we have this huge, | 0:23:24 | 0:23:25 | |
"Stop, don't come, you're not wanted." | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
Of course it's been mishandled. | 0:23:28 | 0:23:29 | |
It was so, so silly to say what she did initially, | 0:23:29 | 0:23:34 | |
not knowing how many would come, not knowing how they would come, | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
and also not taking into consideration at all | 0:23:37 | 0:23:41 | |
the terrorist threat that exists at the moment in those countries. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:46 | |
We have to all... | 0:23:46 | 0:23:48 | |
You know, we have to admit that when these migrants are coming... | 0:23:48 | 0:23:52 | |
The European Union figures themselves are saying now | 0:23:52 | 0:23:55 | |
that roughly 5,000 jihadists have already made their way | 0:23:55 | 0:24:00 | |
on to the continent with the migrants/refugees. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:04 | |
You said the cultures that people came are wrong | 0:24:04 | 0:24:06 | |
and blamed those attacks in Cologne | 0:24:06 | 0:24:09 | |
on the people who had been allowed in and said that was foolish. | 0:24:09 | 0:24:13 | |
-You weren't talking about jihadis? -No, absolutely. | 0:24:13 | 0:24:17 | |
We have to accept that the people who are coming | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
are culturally different from us. | 0:24:20 | 0:24:22 | |
Sometimes that is a great thing and cultures can integrate | 0:24:22 | 0:24:25 | |
and we all live happily. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:27 | |
What Cologne showed us was that these huge numbers of young males, | 0:24:27 | 0:24:35 | |
obviously, who see women as very different to Western men, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:40 | |
how they see women, | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
and unfortunately those mass sexual assaults | 0:24:42 | 0:24:44 | |
didn't just happen in Cologne but Helsinki and across Europe | 0:24:44 | 0:24:48 | |
and they were organised. | 0:24:48 | 0:24:50 | |
That is a very frightening thing for people in this country. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:53 | |
If you then had, in Germany, signs being put up in swimming pools | 0:24:53 | 0:24:58 | |
and public buildings, for women, saying what you can do, | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
what you can't do, you mustn't smile, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
you mustn't wear your... | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
-That's wrong. -Sorry to stop you. | 0:25:06 | 0:25:07 | |
There are many people around the table, we have to bring them in. | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
Jermaine? What's your view? | 0:25:10 | 0:25:11 | |
The road that Angela Merkel went down was pretty ridiculous, | 0:25:11 | 0:25:15 | |
to be honest with you, and it caused chaos. | 0:25:15 | 0:25:19 | |
I spoke about facts when I spoke about the EU | 0:25:19 | 0:25:24 | |
and whether to stay in or leave. I wanted some type of facts. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:28 | |
The way they have handled this situation is something that | 0:25:28 | 0:25:31 | |
probably takes me away from that | 0:25:31 | 0:25:33 | |
because I think it's been completely mishandled. | 0:25:33 | 0:25:36 | |
Doesn't give me any confidence, so to speak, within the EU. | 0:25:36 | 0:25:39 | |
I would like to probably see more of a pro rata-type basis handling | 0:25:39 | 0:25:45 | |
of the situation, look at each country's economic value basically, | 0:25:45 | 0:25:52 | |
how much land they've got and deal with the situation like that. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:57 | |
I don't think... It's definitely not something we can turn our backs on, | 0:25:57 | 0:26:01 | |
it's there and we need to deal with it in that type of way. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:04 | |
-Dominic. -That's the key to it. | 0:26:04 | 0:26:06 | |
We've got to have an immigration system people have confidence in. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:10 | |
The truth is, put the asylum seekers, the genuine refugees, | 0:26:10 | 0:26:13 | |
those fleeing persecution to one side in a moment... | 0:26:13 | 0:26:16 | |
That was what her question is about. Let's stick with her question. | 0:26:16 | 0:26:20 | |
But they are a relatively small proportion | 0:26:20 | 0:26:22 | |
and we should treat them humanely and offer them a safe haven. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
1.5 million, is that relatively small? | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
Sorry, the vast majority coming through Calais | 0:26:28 | 0:26:32 | |
and the routes from Syria, through the Mediterranean, | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
whether we call them refugees, they are coming for a better life. | 0:26:35 | 0:26:38 | |
They're what we, in that unsavoury phrase, | 0:26:38 | 0:26:40 | |
call economic migrants. | 0:26:40 | 0:26:41 | |
And the truth is we need to do three things to restore trust | 0:26:41 | 0:26:45 | |
in our immigration system - make sure people coming here can be | 0:26:45 | 0:26:48 | |
self-sufficient, make sure if they break the law they can be removed | 0:26:48 | 0:26:52 | |
from this country and have some control over the raw numbers | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
because of the pressures on wages, as has already been mentioned, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
because of the pressures on public services. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:01 | |
We cannot do any of those three things from within the EU | 0:27:01 | 0:27:04 | |
and that's why... | 0:27:04 | 0:27:06 | |
I wish we could but we can't. | 0:27:06 | 0:27:08 | |
If you want to restore public confidence in our border controls, | 0:27:08 | 0:27:10 | |
you have to leave the European Union. | 0:27:10 | 0:27:12 | |
I'm going back to the questioner. APPLAUSE | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
May I interrupt? | 0:27:15 | 0:27:17 | |
All the heads of Government have put millions of pounds for the migrants, | 0:27:20 | 0:27:25 | |
yes, to make...help them. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
Where's the help? There's thousands of them at the border. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:33 | |
Young children. | 0:27:33 | 0:27:35 | |
There should be people sent out there with the millions | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
you're sending out there for nurses, builders. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:42 | |
Them tents are no use, | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
you're putting children in tents in the middle of winter. | 0:27:45 | 0:27:48 | |
The time we've been in this situation since last year, | 0:27:48 | 0:27:52 | |
nothing's been done. | 0:27:52 | 0:27:54 | |
You've got a few tents and a few toilets. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
42 toilets in one camp for 8,000 people. | 0:27:57 | 0:28:03 | |
How is that good for the migrant? | 0:28:03 | 0:28:07 | |
Put some money where it's seen. | 0:28:07 | 0:28:09 | |
-I can't see any money going out there. -OK. Zoe Williams? | 0:28:09 | 0:28:12 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:28:12 | 0:28:14 | |
I'm surprised to hear Dominic say these are economic migrants | 0:28:19 | 0:28:22 | |
rather than refugees because we know there is a war in Syria, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
we know there are violent situations in Iraq, Afghanistan, | 0:28:26 | 0:28:30 | |
Central African Republic, Eritrea. | 0:28:30 | 0:28:32 | |
We know where the refugees are coming from and why they're fleeing. | 0:28:32 | 0:28:36 | |
The idea that most are economic migrants is patently untrue. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
-APPLAUSE -You don't know that. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
I actually do know that. Oh, yes, I do. The UNHCR... | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
It's impossible for you to know that. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
-How would it be impossible? -Some are fleeing persecution. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:51 | |
Can I just tell you, nobody puts their children on a black dinghy | 0:28:51 | 0:28:54 | |
across that strait if it's not safer on the boat than it is on the land. | 0:28:54 | 0:28:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
I've actually been in Lesbos, I've seen the people come in. | 0:29:01 | 0:29:04 | |
850,000 came through Lesbos last year. | 0:29:04 | 0:29:06 | |
It's an awe-inspiringly dangerous journey, and a very expensive one, | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
funnelling money back to the smugglers. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:12 | |
And we'll get more of those tragic cases | 0:29:12 | 0:29:14 | |
-if we don't deal with the problem in the region. At source. -OK. | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
We're putting more money than any other European country | 0:29:17 | 0:29:20 | |
-to try and do that. -Dominic. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:22 | |
If you just open your borders, which is John's position, | 0:29:22 | 0:29:24 | |
you will find the problem gets worse, not better. | 0:29:24 | 0:29:27 | |
They are leaving a safe country. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:30 | |
Why do they put them in the boats from Turkey? | 0:29:30 | 0:29:35 | |
-Turkey is a safe country. -All right. Finish, Zoe, please. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
-Why take that risk? -One at a time, please. Not two at a time. Zoe. | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
The point is, OK, it's fine. | 0:29:41 | 0:29:43 | |
Solve the problem at source if you think you can, but in the meantime, | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
we're signatories to the Refugee Convention. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:49 | |
When people are fleeing for their lives, | 0:29:49 | 0:29:50 | |
they don't listen to Merkel or Tusk, particularly, | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
they flee danger and we've got duties, | 0:29:53 | 0:29:55 | |
-as human beings, to care for them. -APPLAUSE | 0:29:55 | 0:29:59 | |
You might have a long-term plan to deal with Syria | 0:30:00 | 0:30:03 | |
but until you make it work... | 0:30:03 | 0:30:05 | |
The EU system says you go to your first port of entry | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
and then you have an allocation. | 0:30:08 | 0:30:11 | |
Donald Tusk is now saying do not come to Europe, | 0:30:11 | 0:30:13 | |
do not believe the smugglers, | 0:30:13 | 0:30:15 | |
do not risk your lives and money. It's all for nothing. | 0:30:15 | 0:30:18 | |
-John McDonnell? -Can you remember, only a year ago, | 0:30:18 | 0:30:22 | |
that body of the baby picked up off the beach? | 0:30:22 | 0:30:26 | |
Can you remember that? That's how desperate things were. | 0:30:26 | 0:30:30 | |
Where people were coming cross, exactly as Zoe said, | 0:30:30 | 0:30:32 | |
on life rafts and all the rest, and they were fleeing... | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
They were fleeing... | 0:30:35 | 0:30:37 | |
-They were fleeing... -They were safe. | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
-He was living in safety. -He was. -They were fleeing... | 0:30:40 | 0:30:43 | |
-He put his child... -Sorry. John, just for a second. | 0:30:43 | 0:30:46 | |
Wait. Start again, sir, so we can hear the point. | 0:30:46 | 0:30:48 | |
Sorry. That man was in safety, he was living in a camp. | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
He put his children in danger. He brought his child across. | 0:30:51 | 0:30:55 | |
-He was responsible. Nobody else. -APPLAUSE | 0:30:55 | 0:30:58 | |
-They were fleeing a war zone. -He wasn't. | 0:30:58 | 0:31:02 | |
They were fleeing a war zone and then when they get to Turkey, | 0:31:02 | 0:31:05 | |
they had no assistance whatsoever and they were absolutely desperate. | 0:31:05 | 0:31:10 | |
Absolute desperation. The whole... | 0:31:10 | 0:31:12 | |
If you look at the refugees system we are in at the moment... | 0:31:12 | 0:31:15 | |
I take Dominic's point seriously. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:18 | |
We've got to resolve the situation at source, | 0:31:18 | 0:31:20 | |
and that means trying to secure peace in Syria through negotiations. | 0:31:20 | 0:31:25 | |
I have to say, us bombing Syria doesn't help in that situation. | 0:31:25 | 0:31:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
-Can I just finish on this? -Well, no... | 0:31:31 | 0:31:33 | |
I believe we have a duty, humanitarian duty, to do, | 0:31:33 | 0:31:40 | |
exactly as this lady has said, | 0:31:40 | 0:31:42 | |
everything we can to assist the refugees themselves. | 0:31:42 | 0:31:45 | |
The only way you can do that is if countries come together | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
in a co-ordinated way, add together their resources, | 0:31:48 | 0:31:52 | |
help all we can, of course around the Syrian borders themselves, | 0:31:52 | 0:31:56 | |
but also, actually, if people have to be resettled, | 0:31:56 | 0:32:00 | |
we do it on a planned basis, exactly as Jermaine has said, | 0:32:00 | 0:32:03 | |
on a planned and co-operative basis right across Europe. | 0:32:03 | 0:32:06 | |
As a country, to be frank, | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
in comparison with other European countries, we have failed dismally. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:13 | |
Use Catherine Boots' question. If you could answer, briefly, that. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:16 | |
Has the crisis been mishandled by the heads of the European countries? | 0:32:16 | 0:32:20 | |
I believe it's been mishandled by every European state, | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
and that includes our one. | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
We need to do more and we need to cooperate to achieve it. | 0:32:25 | 0:32:30 | |
You, sir, there. And then I'll come to you up there. Yes. | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
I take it the panel watches the internet. | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
If you watch the internet, you will find half of the stuff | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
you see on the media on the telly is edited. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:40 | |
Half of them immigrants, they don't want water, they don't want food, | 0:32:40 | 0:32:45 | |
they want money and they want to try to get to Britain. | 0:32:45 | 0:32:48 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:32:48 | 0:32:50 | |
You up there. Yes. The woman up there. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:52 | |
I volunteer at a local refugee crisis centre, | 0:32:52 | 0:32:55 | |
and I think for Louise to basically brand them | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
as people who come here searching for money and... | 0:32:58 | 0:33:02 | |
-I didn't say that. -You said their opinions of women and these things. | 0:33:02 | 0:33:08 | |
They are fleeing from war zones. | 0:33:08 | 0:33:10 | |
Can you imagine how you would feel to have to leave everything behind? | 0:33:10 | 0:33:13 | |
-To leave your family? -Can I answer that? -No, you can't. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:17 | |
She just commented on what you said, which is fair enough. | 0:33:17 | 0:33:21 | |
-I didn't say that, though, she made it up. -Yes, you. | 0:33:21 | 0:33:24 | |
The union is supposed to be based on unity and solidarity | 0:33:24 | 0:33:28 | |
and each of these member states, they're not seeing them as people, | 0:33:28 | 0:33:31 | |
they see them as nothing, really. | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
It's not on. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:35 | |
I don't see how people can say remaining in the EU is good | 0:33:35 | 0:33:40 | |
if the leaders are going to act in this way. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
I think it's disgusting, the way they have handled it. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:45 | |
I'll take a point from you, sir, then we'll go on. Yes. | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
Man in the check shirt. | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
A lot of people are linking immigration to terrorism. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:52 | |
Not all immigrants are terrorists, we know that. | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:33:55 | 0:33:57 | |
But I don't want to link the immigration argument to terrorism. | 0:33:57 | 0:34:03 | |
The country cannot cope. | 0:34:04 | 0:34:06 | |
The infrastructure, the NHS, housing, | 0:34:06 | 0:34:09 | |
it's that that cannot cope with the immigrants. | 0:34:09 | 0:34:12 | |
-We cannot cope. -All right. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:14 | |
Thank you very much. I want to go on. | 0:34:14 | 0:34:16 | |
APPLAUSE I want to go on. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:18 | |
Because I don't want to stick on Europe for the whole programme. | 0:34:18 | 0:34:21 | |
I want to carry on. Wait. HE MUMBLES | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
Just say where we're going to be next week, | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
which is Dundee and then Chelmsford. | 0:34:27 | 0:34:29 | |
And the way to get into this audience | 0:34:29 | 0:34:32 | |
and have these arguments is on the screen. | 0:34:32 | 0:34:34 | |
You can either call or apply to the website. | 0:34:34 | 0:34:37 | |
Right. A question from Barry Pickard, please. | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
Cutting the top rank of income tax from 50p down to 45p | 0:34:40 | 0:34:44 | |
raised an extra £8 billion from the super-rich. | 0:34:44 | 0:34:48 | |
Should it now be cut to 40p? | 0:34:48 | 0:34:50 | |
Should we now cut income tax to 40p because, | 0:34:50 | 0:34:53 | |
as the Chancellor of the Exchequer claimed, | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
it gained £8 billion when they reduced it by 5p. John. | 0:34:56 | 0:35:02 | |
Within hours of George Osborne making that claim, | 0:35:02 | 0:35:08 | |
it was refuted by the Institute for Fiscal Studies and many others, | 0:35:08 | 0:35:13 | |
because what happened was that we saw a huge exercise in tax planning. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:19 | |
So people delayed certain payments | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
and bonuses, etc, until that tax regime was reduced. | 0:35:22 | 0:35:27 | |
So instead of paying it in the year it was at 50p, | 0:35:27 | 0:35:30 | |
they then delayed that. | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
So we had an artificial low one year and an artificial high the next. | 0:35:33 | 0:35:38 | |
The IFS has said that over the next five-year period, actually, | 0:35:38 | 0:35:42 | |
it will cost us, they say, 360 million. Something like that. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:47 | |
So the reduction didn't gain us anything, it's cost us everything. | 0:35:47 | 0:35:52 | |
My view is that the wealthy, the corporations and others, | 0:35:52 | 0:35:58 | |
should pay their taxes, pay a fair rate of tax | 0:35:58 | 0:36:01 | |
and shoulder the burden the rest of us do. | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:36:03 | 0:36:06 | |
OK. As Shadow Chancellor, | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
what rate of tax would you have at the top? | 0:36:11 | 0:36:13 | |
We oppose 45p and we would put it back to 50p and leave it at that. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:17 | |
-No higher? -No, leave it at that. | 0:36:17 | 0:36:20 | |
-I thought you wanted to go to 60 at one point. -That was years ago. | 0:36:20 | 0:36:25 | |
There is a good point, to be honest. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
This whole debate around income tax, I think, is not the issue. | 0:36:28 | 0:36:32 | |
The issue is the corporations paying their taxes. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:36 | |
Look at Google and all the others. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:38 | |
We need a fair tax system | 0:36:38 | 0:36:40 | |
and we need to ensure corporations pay their way. | 0:36:40 | 0:36:44 | |
No-one in this audience would have been able to do a deal | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
like Google, where they put off their taxes for the ten years | 0:36:47 | 0:36:50 | |
and then only pay a tenth of what they should have. That's outrageous. | 0:36:50 | 0:36:54 | |
The debate is moving onto tax justice, | 0:36:54 | 0:36:56 | |
rather than issues around income tax. | 0:36:56 | 0:36:58 | |
APPLAUSE Dominic Rabb. | 0:36:58 | 0:37:01 | |
First of all, on the tax deficit, | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
the difference between tax owed and tax collected, | 0:37:07 | 0:37:10 | |
it is at its lowest level on record. | 0:37:10 | 0:37:13 | |
So we have done a huge amount to deal with that problem. | 0:37:13 | 0:37:16 | |
On tax cutting, when you cut taxes, you spur innovation | 0:37:16 | 0:37:20 | |
and jobs growth, and that brings in revenue. | 0:37:20 | 0:37:23 | |
In principle, it's a good thing. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:25 | |
But for me, the focus would be on low and middle incomes. | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
If you look at what we have done since 2010, | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
those earning £10,000-£15,000, lowish incomes, | 0:37:31 | 0:37:35 | |
are paying 60% less tax than in 2010. | 0:37:35 | 0:37:39 | |
If you are a millionaire, you are paying 12.4% more tax. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
I think those tax cuts are a good example of something that is good | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
for the economy and good for our society. | 0:37:45 | 0:37:47 | |
When I look at Labour, the first tax policy | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
they have come out with is raising the basic rate of tax. | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
You're talking about people on £11,000. | 0:37:54 | 0:37:56 | |
For the Labour Party, | 0:37:56 | 0:37:58 | |
raising tax is the closest thing they have to religion. | 0:37:58 | 0:38:01 | |
It's not just bad for enterprise and jobs but also bad for society. | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:38:04 | 0:38:06 | |
-Am I wrong about the basic rate? -Be serious. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:09 | |
We've not said about increasing the basic rate. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:13 | |
What I've said is that we are not focusing on income tax. | 0:38:13 | 0:38:17 | |
You are misleading the audience. | 0:38:17 | 0:38:20 | |
Jeremy Corbyn has said crystal clear that he wants to raise | 0:38:20 | 0:38:23 | |
-the basic rate of tax. -No, he hasn't. | 0:38:23 | 0:38:25 | |
-Be honest about it. -Be straight about this. | 0:38:25 | 0:38:29 | |
We've said consistently on the 45p rate | 0:38:29 | 0:38:32 | |
it was a mistake to reduce it from 50p, | 0:38:32 | 0:38:34 | |
and we have also said we are not interested | 0:38:34 | 0:38:37 | |
in increasing the basic rate of tax. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:39 | |
What we're interested in is collecting taxes from corporations | 0:38:39 | 0:38:43 | |
and making sure there is a fair taxation system. | 0:38:43 | 0:38:46 | |
That is the quickest U-turn in opposition I have ever seen. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:48 | |
-You're making it up as you go along. -Jermaine. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:51 | |
I agree with John's point about the corporations. | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
I think that issue definitely needs to be addressed. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
It's also probably naive to think | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
if we reduced the level of tax from 45p down to 40p, | 0:39:00 | 0:39:05 | |
that in turn would create more money, | 0:39:05 | 0:39:09 | |
as that figure tried to put across. | 0:39:09 | 0:39:13 | |
But, look. I think most people are quite happy to pay their way | 0:39:13 | 0:39:19 | |
to support our sectors. | 0:39:19 | 0:39:22 | |
Our sectors, for me, are struggling. | 0:39:22 | 0:39:24 | |
Teachers, our schools, our NHS are bursting at the seams. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:29 | |
We need to raise money for those sectors, to support them. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:34 | |
If that means the rate of tax has to be pushed up to 50p, then it does. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:38 | |
-APPLAUSE -It is as simple as that. | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
OK. Louise Bours. | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
These kind of questions always confuse me. | 0:39:45 | 0:39:47 | |
I don't know about people sitting in the audience and at home, | 0:39:47 | 0:39:49 | |
but when you hear Conservatives and Labour just argue, | 0:39:49 | 0:39:52 | |
they are so determined that each is right. | 0:39:52 | 0:39:55 | |
-Doesn't Ukip believe it's right? -They never do that! | 0:39:55 | 0:39:59 | |
What I would like to see... | 0:39:59 | 0:40:01 | |
We have the most complex tax system, I think, in the world. | 0:40:01 | 0:40:05 | |
It's tens of thousands of pages long, our tax system. | 0:40:05 | 0:40:08 | |
I would like it simplified. | 0:40:08 | 0:40:10 | |
I'd like to take people on minimum wage out of tax | 0:40:10 | 0:40:13 | |
and National Insurance altogether. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
I don't think they should be paying tax and National Insurance | 0:40:16 | 0:40:18 | |
if you're earning the minimum wage. That would be a help. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:21 | |
We have to target those who make avoiding tax a profession. | 0:40:21 | 0:40:26 | |
We all know who those are, the big corporations. | 0:40:26 | 0:40:31 | |
I would like to see a real will within the Government to go after | 0:40:31 | 0:40:38 | |
those big corporations so they pay their fair share. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:41 | |
It can never be right in a society where we have people on minimum wage | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
paying tax and National Insurance, | 0:40:44 | 0:40:46 | |
and we have the likes of Google and Starbucks | 0:40:46 | 0:40:49 | |
and the rest of them paying nothing. | 0:40:49 | 0:40:51 | |
To do that, you have to have international agreements. | 0:40:51 | 0:40:54 | |
You voted against the European Union and those international agreements. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:59 | |
-Hang on. Of course... -APPLAUSE | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
Hang on, ladies and gentlemen. | 0:41:02 | 0:41:04 | |
Do you want the European Union having a hold over your taxes? | 0:41:04 | 0:41:07 | |
You blocked country by country reporting! | 0:41:07 | 0:41:11 | |
-You voted against it consistently! -John, I listen to it every week. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:15 | |
They want tax harmonisation across the European Union. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:19 | |
No. You voted against country by country reporting. | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
Can you just answer the question John has put to you? | 0:41:22 | 0:41:27 | |
You voted against country by country reporting, | 0:41:27 | 0:41:30 | |
so we could identify how much tax should be paid in each country. | 0:41:30 | 0:41:34 | |
We voted, and we always vote and will continue to vote against | 0:41:34 | 0:41:40 | |
anything that hands any further powers | 0:41:40 | 0:41:43 | |
to the Commission and to the European Union. | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
-It didn't. It gave powers to us. -No, it didn't. Read the thing. | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
Labour MEPs always read them in such a vague way. | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
This is going nowhere fast. You in the front. | 0:41:53 | 0:41:56 | |
Then I'll come to you, Zoe. The man here in the front. | 0:41:56 | 0:41:58 | |
I've got some advice for the Chancellor. | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
Cut Iain Duncan Smith, save the country a fortune | 0:42:00 | 0:42:04 | |
and you could have a promotion on the way, Dominic. | 0:42:04 | 0:42:08 | |
That's a generous offer but I will respectfully decline. | 0:42:08 | 0:42:11 | |
Zoe Williams. Then I'll come to you. | 0:42:11 | 0:42:12 | |
This chap really hates Iain Duncan Smith so I'm with you. | 0:42:12 | 0:42:16 | |
To return to the question, | 0:42:17 | 0:42:19 | |
what I find worrying about George Osborne | 0:42:19 | 0:42:21 | |
and his £8 billion figure | 0:42:21 | 0:42:23 | |
is that I don't think he made a mistake. | 0:42:23 | 0:42:26 | |
I think he knew that wasn't true. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:27 | |
We seem to be living through a post-truth politics, | 0:42:27 | 0:42:31 | |
where there is no onus upon them to say what is actually true any more. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:37 | |
I would really like to see him held to account more on that. | 0:42:37 | 0:42:40 | |
You can't say "We saved £8 billion" | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
when you know it is just deferred tax from one year to the next, | 0:42:42 | 0:42:46 | |
and you really should be held up on it. | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
On the basic level of income tax, it's a really blunt tool. | 0:42:48 | 0:42:52 | |
Most people on low income who are taken out of income tax, | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
that money was clawed back through reductions in tax credits. | 0:42:55 | 0:42:59 | |
The people who really won from the raising of the minimum threshold | 0:42:59 | 0:43:03 | |
were those on middle and high incomes. | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
Again, there is a huge amount of deliberate mendacity which | 0:43:06 | 0:43:10 | |
makes us all think, "I don't know who is telling the truth." | 0:43:10 | 0:43:13 | |
The fact is they are not telling the truth often enough. | 0:43:13 | 0:43:16 | |
OK. The woman, here. | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
If George Osborne did save £8 billion, | 0:43:18 | 0:43:21 | |
can he not use it to vaccinate our children against meningitis B? | 0:43:21 | 0:43:24 | |
APPLAUSE Dominic Rabb. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:27 | |
Look, there are huge pressures on the public finances. | 0:43:29 | 0:43:33 | |
We've cut the deficit by half as a proportion of GDP | 0:43:33 | 0:43:36 | |
but there's still a way to go. | 0:43:36 | 0:43:38 | |
Which is a short way of saying it is one of those things | 0:43:38 | 0:43:40 | |
you would love to do if you could but there are so many other | 0:43:40 | 0:43:43 | |
campaigns and pressure groups looking to try | 0:43:43 | 0:43:45 | |
and find ways to use that money. | 0:43:45 | 0:43:47 | |
I have a three-year-old and a one-year-old at home, | 0:43:47 | 0:43:50 | |
and I know the fear and concern people have around it. | 0:43:50 | 0:43:53 | |
It's something we'd love to be able to do if we had the money, | 0:43:53 | 0:43:56 | |
and who knows, with... | 0:43:56 | 0:43:58 | |
Your three-year-old and one-year-old will be vaccinated by next year. | 0:43:58 | 0:44:02 | |
My eight and nine-year-olds won't. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:03 | |
All I'm saying is as a parent, I totally understand the concern. | 0:44:03 | 0:44:09 | |
You cannot fund these things in the NHS | 0:44:09 | 0:44:12 | |
unless you've got a growing, vibrant economy. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:15 | |
Do you anticipate further cuts in the Budget in three weeks? | 0:44:15 | 0:44:19 | |
I can't pre-empt the Chancellor. | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
We've got to make sure we have stable public finances, | 0:44:22 | 0:44:25 | |
we continue on the stable path, and when we've got room to do it, | 0:44:25 | 0:44:29 | |
we invest in vital things, | 0:44:29 | 0:44:31 | |
whether it's meningitis or other parts of the NHS, | 0:44:31 | 0:44:34 | |
and we make sure people have more money in their pocket, | 0:44:34 | 0:44:37 | |
particularly low and middle-income workers. | 0:44:37 | 0:44:39 | |
I'll take a couple more points and we'll go on to another. You, sir. | 0:44:39 | 0:44:42 | |
The reality is we're all going to have to pay more tax. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:44 | |
Why aren't the politicians more honest about it? | 0:44:44 | 0:44:47 | |
We're in this race for the bottom. | 0:44:47 | 0:44:49 | |
Everybody wants to cut tax, we're living longer, | 0:44:49 | 0:44:51 | |
there's more care needed, | 0:44:51 | 0:44:52 | |
people will be missing out because of all the cuts, | 0:44:52 | 0:44:55 | |
particularly in Liverpool in social care...packages. | 0:44:55 | 0:44:58 | |
We're going to have to pay more tax. | 0:44:58 | 0:45:00 | |
Let's be grown up about it | 0:45:00 | 0:45:02 | |
and let's have the politicians admitting it | 0:45:02 | 0:45:04 | |
and let's have a rational debate. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:05 | |
And the man behind you. | 0:45:05 | 0:45:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:45:07 | 0:45:09 | |
You, sir. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:10 | |
Am I wrong in believing that Labour, for 12.5 years | 0:45:10 | 0:45:13 | |
of a 13-year government, had a higher tax rate at 40%? | 0:45:13 | 0:45:17 | |
Is that not true? | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
-Now you're trying to be... -Why do you only have 40%? | 0:45:19 | 0:45:23 | |
-Now you're trying to be the poorer man's best friend. -Yeah. | 0:45:23 | 0:45:26 | |
I was on the back benches then | 0:45:26 | 0:45:28 | |
and I used to put alternative budgets up every year. | 0:45:28 | 0:45:30 | |
-So it's not your fault. -Let me finish. | 0:45:30 | 0:45:32 | |
I used to put up alternative budgets every year | 0:45:32 | 0:45:35 | |
and in that was included a 50p rate. | 0:45:35 | 0:45:36 | |
There you are, you've got the answer. | 0:45:36 | 0:45:38 | |
The argument then was that that struck the right balance. | 0:45:38 | 0:45:41 | |
And the point that this gentleman made | 0:45:41 | 0:45:43 | |
about "We're all going to have to pay more taxes", | 0:45:43 | 0:45:45 | |
the issue for most people is they... | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
People don't jib against paying taxes | 0:45:48 | 0:45:51 | |
if they think the system is fair. | 0:45:51 | 0:45:53 | |
None of us now think the system is fair | 0:45:53 | 0:45:56 | |
because we're seeing the wealthiest and the corporations | 0:45:56 | 0:46:00 | |
laugh all the way to the bank by manipulating the tax system. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:04 | |
I'll just take a couple more quick questions | 0:46:04 | 0:46:07 | |
before we come to the end of the programme. | 0:46:07 | 0:46:09 | |
We've got ten minutes or so | 0:46:09 | 0:46:11 | |
and I think both these ones are worth taking. | 0:46:11 | 0:46:13 | |
Alan King first of all, please. Alan King. | 0:46:13 | 0:46:15 | |
When do we start to see Donald Trump as a serious politician? | 0:46:15 | 0:46:21 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:46:21 | 0:46:23 | |
When do we stop seeing Trump as a joke | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
and see him as a serious politician? | 0:46:26 | 0:46:28 | |
What do you think? | 0:46:30 | 0:46:32 | |
I don't know when we start seeing him as a serious human being. | 0:46:32 | 0:46:36 | |
Look, we see him as a serious threat right now | 0:46:36 | 0:46:40 | |
and if, by serious politician, | 0:46:40 | 0:46:42 | |
you mean serious threat to the entire world, | 0:46:42 | 0:46:44 | |
then I say start thinking that now. | 0:46:44 | 0:46:46 | |
The problem is there's nothing we can do about it so, you know, | 0:46:46 | 0:46:50 | |
it's that kind of impotent anxiety that isn't going to get us anywhere. | 0:46:50 | 0:46:54 | |
It's... It really irritates me cos everybody says, you know, | 0:46:54 | 0:46:58 | |
"This is populist politics, left-wing populism | 0:46:58 | 0:47:00 | |
"and right-wing populism are both the same." | 0:47:00 | 0:47:02 | |
They're not the same - | 0:47:02 | 0:47:03 | |
left-wing populism looks like Bernie Sanders | 0:47:03 | 0:47:05 | |
and wants a democratic socialist life | 0:47:05 | 0:47:08 | |
where people have more and are happier, | 0:47:08 | 0:47:10 | |
and right-wing populism looks like a guy who won't distance | 0:47:10 | 0:47:13 | |
himself from the Klu Klux Klan. So, you know... | 0:47:13 | 0:47:16 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:47:16 | 0:47:18 | |
Do you agree with that, Dominic? | 0:47:18 | 0:47:19 | |
I think that stuff around the Klu Klux Klan | 0:47:21 | 0:47:23 | |
and refusing to disavow them put him beyond the pale. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:28 | |
I think that raises a serious question mark | 0:47:28 | 0:47:30 | |
around his integrity. | 0:47:30 | 0:47:31 | |
I think I'm also worried about what he might do. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:34 | |
He's talking about building a wall, | 0:47:34 | 0:47:35 | |
making the Mexicans pay for it, bringing back torture... | 0:47:35 | 0:47:39 | |
But the thing is, | 0:47:39 | 0:47:41 | |
whether you're a left-wing or a right-wing populist, | 0:47:41 | 0:47:43 | |
you prey on the very seductive vulnerabilities of people. | 0:47:43 | 0:47:48 | |
You come up with these populist utopian ideas | 0:47:48 | 0:47:51 | |
but you always, in the end, end up breaking your promises, | 0:47:51 | 0:47:55 | |
and I think, in the end, | 0:47:55 | 0:47:56 | |
the American people will be too smart to vote for that. | 0:47:56 | 0:47:59 | |
-I certainly hope so. -You in the fourth row there, yes. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
I think we need to look at the kind of anger | 0:48:02 | 0:48:06 | |
that Donald Trump is harnessing, | 0:48:06 | 0:48:07 | |
but I do agree with Zoe that we should actually consider him | 0:48:07 | 0:48:11 | |
more of a threat and we should be thinking about whether, | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
if he is elected President of the United States, | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
whether that is a man that in any way, shape or form | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
we want to do any business with. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:22 | |
And the woman here on the second row. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:24 | |
Isn't part of the problem that we like democracy until the person | 0:48:24 | 0:48:29 | |
who democracy elects isn't somebody that we would choose? | 0:48:29 | 0:48:33 | |
And wouldn't somebody like President Assad or Mugabe... | 0:48:33 | 0:48:36 | |
We argue that's why you don't have democracy, | 0:48:36 | 0:48:39 | |
cos you end up with a Trump. | 0:48:39 | 0:48:41 | |
LAUGHTER Louise Bours, do you agree with her? | 0:48:41 | 0:48:45 | |
I've agreed with a couple of things the lady said this evening. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:48 | |
Very insightful. | 0:48:48 | 0:48:50 | |
Look, I mean, love him or loathe him, | 0:48:50 | 0:48:54 | |
the people of the Republican Party, they keep voting him through | 0:48:54 | 0:48:58 | |
and that is democracy. | 0:48:58 | 0:49:00 | |
Just because we don't like him | 0:49:00 | 0:49:02 | |
or find his views unpalatable, etc, etc, | 0:49:02 | 0:49:05 | |
that really, as far as we're concerned in Great Britain, | 0:49:05 | 0:49:08 | |
has nothing to do with us. | 0:49:08 | 0:49:10 | |
This election is the United States of America | 0:49:10 | 0:49:13 | |
and just as we don't want them | 0:49:13 | 0:49:14 | |
interfering in our democratic process in elections over here, | 0:49:14 | 0:49:18 | |
we really have no right to interfere in theirs. | 0:49:18 | 0:49:21 | |
Now, whether he wins the nomination | 0:49:21 | 0:49:23 | |
and goes forward to the presidential elections, | 0:49:23 | 0:49:26 | |
we will have to wait and see and then the American people can decide. | 0:49:26 | 0:49:30 | |
But that's what democracy's all about - | 0:49:30 | 0:49:32 | |
it doesn't matter whether we like him, | 0:49:32 | 0:49:34 | |
it's what the American people want, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:36 | |
and if they're going to vote for him then they will have the government | 0:49:36 | 0:49:39 | |
and the president that they deserve and that's the important thing. | 0:49:39 | 0:49:42 | |
Unless we want to have elections like in the European Union | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
where you're given a ballot paper... | 0:49:45 | 0:49:47 | |
Like when we were electing | 0:49:47 | 0:49:48 | |
the President of the European Parliament, | 0:49:48 | 0:49:51 | |
we had one candidate and all we had was "yes" on the ballot paper. | 0:49:51 | 0:49:54 | |
So unless you want elections like that, Donald Trump, | 0:49:54 | 0:49:58 | |
he is the Republican Party's choice at the moment. | 0:49:58 | 0:50:00 | |
OK, man up there. | 0:50:00 | 0:50:02 | |
Are we going to be prepared for the migrant crisis from America? | 0:50:02 | 0:50:05 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:50:05 | 0:50:06 | |
-I didn't quite hear that. -What was that? | 0:50:06 | 0:50:08 | |
Are we going to be prepared for the migrant crisis from America? | 0:50:08 | 0:50:12 | |
And the man in pink there, I wanted to go to. Yes. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:16 | |
It's OK Zoe saying that we shouldn't poke around in the politics | 0:50:16 | 0:50:19 | |
-of America and what Trump's doing but... -I didn't say that. | 0:50:19 | 0:50:22 | |
..it seems it's OK for us to poke around in the politics | 0:50:22 | 0:50:25 | |
of the Middle East when a particular leader over there is... | 0:50:25 | 0:50:29 | |
-Jermaine. -My point is, | 0:50:29 | 0:50:32 | |
maybe we should poke around in the politics of the United States. | 0:50:32 | 0:50:37 | |
Jermaine. | 0:50:37 | 0:50:39 | |
I think it's very worrying to me that Donald Trump is getting | 0:50:39 | 0:50:43 | |
so far within his political career. | 0:50:43 | 0:50:45 | |
He comes across to me | 0:50:45 | 0:50:46 | |
as a person that seems to thrive on people's insecurities | 0:50:46 | 0:50:50 | |
and weaknesses and I just think, you know, it's easy for us to say, | 0:50:50 | 0:50:54 | |
"Right, it's not our country and let's not get involved", | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
but at some point, we're going to have to deal with America | 0:50:57 | 0:51:00 | |
over certain subjects, | 0:51:00 | 0:51:01 | |
so do I want that to be Donald Trump? | 0:51:01 | 0:51:03 | |
-No, I do not. -We have no choice, though. It's their choice. | 0:51:03 | 0:51:06 | |
It is their choice, obviously, but that's why I'm saying | 0:51:06 | 0:51:10 | |
it's so worrying to me that he's getting so far down the line. | 0:51:10 | 0:51:13 | |
Yeah, nobody's suggesting we intervene in America, Louise, | 0:51:13 | 0:51:16 | |
we're just saying it's a bad thing. | 0:51:16 | 0:51:17 | |
You, sir, in the white T-shirt. | 0:51:17 | 0:51:19 | |
-If he becomes president, what then? -All right, hold on. | 0:51:19 | 0:51:22 | |
I think the biggest fear for me... | 0:51:22 | 0:51:24 | |
I think you're absolutely right, it's America's issue, this. | 0:51:24 | 0:51:27 | |
Bigger fear for me is if Jeremy | 0:51:27 | 0:51:29 | |
and John's ragtag bunch of socialists get into number ten. | 0:51:29 | 0:51:32 | |
-I'd agree with that, sir. -John, you maybe want to answer him. | 0:51:32 | 0:51:36 | |
Thanks for that. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:39 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:51:39 | 0:51:42 | |
I think we've got to take Trump seriously and I think it's... | 0:51:42 | 0:51:47 | |
I find it extremely worrying | 0:51:47 | 0:51:50 | |
about some of the statements that he's made, | 0:51:50 | 0:51:52 | |
the instability that he will cause within his own country | 0:51:52 | 0:51:55 | |
and the instability that he could cause globally. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:59 | |
It's not interfering in American politics, | 0:51:59 | 0:52:01 | |
it's completely, of course, up to the American people, | 0:52:01 | 0:52:04 | |
but as friends of the American people, our closest ally, | 0:52:04 | 0:52:07 | |
I think as friends we should express our caution and concern about it. | 0:52:07 | 0:52:13 | |
This is someone who actually could damage - damage - | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
international relations overall. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:18 | |
Why is he so appealing to the Republican voter? | 0:52:18 | 0:52:20 | |
I think there's a real... | 0:52:20 | 0:52:22 | |
Within America itself, | 0:52:22 | 0:52:24 | |
there is a real disaffection about the system overall, | 0:52:24 | 0:52:28 | |
about how large numbers of people now have had their wages suppressed, | 0:52:28 | 0:52:32 | |
their public services are collapsing, | 0:52:32 | 0:52:34 | |
and if you look at the opinion polls, | 0:52:34 | 0:52:36 | |
there's real anger out there. | 0:52:36 | 0:52:38 | |
And they're seizing upon Trump as an opportunity to protest | 0:52:38 | 0:52:42 | |
against the system itself. | 0:52:42 | 0:52:44 | |
Now, I'm hoping, I'm hoping that as the debate goes on, | 0:52:44 | 0:52:49 | |
the more exposed that he becomes, that people will then say, | 0:52:49 | 0:52:53 | |
"This is not for us", | 0:52:53 | 0:52:54 | |
and that there'll be a vote for a candidate | 0:52:54 | 0:52:57 | |
who actually will represent all of America | 0:52:57 | 0:52:59 | |
rather than one small section. | 0:52:59 | 0:53:01 | |
But I think we do have the opportunity, | 0:53:01 | 0:53:04 | |
as friends of America, to actually say, | 0:53:04 | 0:53:06 | |
"This could be damaging to us all and please, please think carefully." | 0:53:06 | 0:53:10 | |
OK. Last point from you, madam. | 0:53:10 | 0:53:12 | |
Ah. All I have to say is that really, | 0:53:12 | 0:53:14 | |
that's why I'd really prefer to stay in Europe, | 0:53:14 | 0:53:18 | |
cos imagine Donald Trump with Putin. | 0:53:18 | 0:53:20 | |
And they're the superpowers, aren't they? | 0:53:20 | 0:53:23 | |
-And there you have a very unsafe planet, really. -OK. Right. | 0:53:23 | 0:53:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:53:28 | 0:53:31 | |
We'll take a last question from James Yates, please. | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
James Yates. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:35 | |
Should tackling in rugby be banned in schools? | 0:53:35 | 0:53:38 | |
You write about medicine yourself, do you? | 0:53:38 | 0:53:41 | |
Yeah, well, just started. | 0:53:41 | 0:53:43 | |
-What, you've just started? -Yeah. | 0:53:43 | 0:53:44 | |
-So you know about this issue. -Not really. | 0:53:44 | 0:53:46 | |
Should tackling rugby... | 0:53:46 | 0:53:48 | |
Should tackling in rugby be banned in schools? | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
We know that there's a policy | 0:53:51 | 0:53:53 | |
to get millions more children playing rugby. | 0:53:53 | 0:53:55 | |
Jermaine, you would know about this. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:57 | |
Initially, when you hear that statement, | 0:53:57 | 0:54:00 | |
you feel like saying, "Well, it would be almost | 0:54:00 | 0:54:03 | |
"like banning shooting from playing football." | 0:54:03 | 0:54:05 | |
If you're playing football, | 0:54:05 | 0:54:06 | |
like, kids aren't allowed to shoot no more. | 0:54:06 | 0:54:09 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:54:09 | 0:54:11 | |
I thought you meant something quite different. | 0:54:11 | 0:54:13 | |
It is, it's like... Oh, yeah, sorry! | 0:54:13 | 0:54:17 | |
Yeah, wrong way. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:18 | |
No, it's almost like saying to a young footballer, | 0:54:18 | 0:54:21 | |
"You can't shoot at goal no more", | 0:54:21 | 0:54:23 | |
and I just think that rugby, part of it is tackling. | 0:54:23 | 0:54:28 | |
And granted, you know, the injuries that can be sustained aren't great | 0:54:28 | 0:54:33 | |
and what I think we should do is... | 0:54:33 | 0:54:34 | |
You know, when I was at school, there was parts | 0:54:34 | 0:54:36 | |
where you was on the school field and someone would have a shot, | 0:54:36 | 0:54:39 | |
probably someone who wasn't very good, and it would hit | 0:54:39 | 0:54:42 | |
somebody in the face and they'd have a bloody nose. | 0:54:42 | 0:54:44 | |
So what they made us do was start playing with a sponge football | 0:54:44 | 0:54:47 | |
or a smaller football. | 0:54:47 | 0:54:48 | |
The thing with rugby, | 0:54:48 | 0:54:49 | |
I'm sure they'd do what they do with American football - | 0:54:49 | 0:54:52 | |
you can play tag, have, like, a flag hanging out of your shorts | 0:54:52 | 0:54:56 | |
and they can take that off, or start wearing protective gear | 0:54:56 | 0:54:59 | |
and then as you get older, the layers of protective gear come off. | 0:54:59 | 0:55:02 | |
So you would like that to happen? | 0:55:02 | 0:55:04 | |
You don't want 16-, 17-, 18-year-olds | 0:55:04 | 0:55:06 | |
tackling each other and... | 0:55:06 | 0:55:08 | |
I think it's important that we obviously don't end up with, yeah, | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
16-, 17-year-olds who have got major issues through getting | 0:55:11 | 0:55:15 | |
concussion through the early stages of their career. | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
So, yeah, I think I would like to see some type of protective gear | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
for these youngsters to wear until they get to that professional stage. | 0:55:21 | 0:55:25 | |
Dominic. We'll have to go quickly around the table on this. | 0:55:25 | 0:55:27 | |
This is an issue. 70 doctors and scientists called for this ban. | 0:55:27 | 0:55:31 | |
No. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:32 | |
I think we should try and make all these contact sports a bit safer | 0:55:32 | 0:55:35 | |
but I don't think we should be banning them. | 0:55:35 | 0:55:37 | |
We need to be encouraging youngsters to do more sports. | 0:55:37 | 0:55:40 | |
It's good for their health, | 0:55:40 | 0:55:41 | |
it's also good for other life skills... | 0:55:41 | 0:55:43 | |
-OK, very quickly... -Mm-hm. | 0:55:45 | 0:55:47 | |
We have the same debate around boxing. | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
I'm a trustee of Fight For Peace in Newham | 0:55:49 | 0:55:51 | |
and it gets a lot of youngsters very difficult to reach | 0:55:51 | 0:55:54 | |
into the club to do the competitive martial arts or boxing, | 0:55:54 | 0:55:57 | |
but then it also works on their numeracy, their literacy. | 0:55:57 | 0:56:00 | |
I got involved mentoring | 0:56:00 | 0:56:02 | |
and all I'm saying is these kind of sports have got the potential | 0:56:02 | 0:56:04 | |
and the power to reach certain youngsters, | 0:56:04 | 0:56:06 | |
particularly from tough backgrounds, that nothing else does. | 0:56:06 | 0:56:09 | |
-So let's not get rid of that. -We have to be very brief. | 0:56:09 | 0:56:12 | |
-I don't know... -Who's most likely to be brief? | 0:56:12 | 0:56:15 | |
Yes, you can be brief. | 0:56:15 | 0:56:16 | |
I remember interviewing the academic who did this research | 0:56:16 | 0:56:19 | |
when she first started it. | 0:56:19 | 0:56:20 | |
She's a public health epidemiologist and I was like, | 0:56:20 | 0:56:22 | |
"What do you want to do rugby for? | 0:56:22 | 0:56:24 | |
"It's just a weird thing posh people play." | 0:56:24 | 0:56:26 | |
And she said, "You've got no idea how dangerous this is. | 0:56:26 | 0:56:29 | |
"If you knew how dangerous it was and how often people | 0:56:29 | 0:56:32 | |
"are brain damaged by it, there's no way you would let your children | 0:56:32 | 0:56:35 | |
"anywhere near it." I think all these arguments - | 0:56:35 | 0:56:37 | |
"Oh, it's really good for you to get into the fresh air..." | 0:56:37 | 0:56:40 | |
You don't need to get a concussion in the fresh air, | 0:56:40 | 0:56:42 | |
there are loads of ways to get fit, not concussing yourself. | 0:56:42 | 0:56:45 | |
Shouldn't it be left to the parents, not Government to decide? | 0:56:45 | 0:56:47 | |
If parents knew how dangerous it was, | 0:56:47 | 0:56:49 | |
they would vote with their feet. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:50 | |
John, can I ask you in a phrase to say | 0:56:50 | 0:56:53 | |
whether rugby tackling should be banned? | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
I think we need to take into account what the doctors are now warning us | 0:56:55 | 0:56:59 | |
and I think on Jermaine's point, | 0:56:59 | 0:57:00 | |
you change the techniques, you look at enhanced protections. | 0:57:00 | 0:57:04 | |
In that way, you preserve the sport, but you don't have the risk as well. | 0:57:04 | 0:57:07 | |
-Louise. -The benefits outweigh the risks, in my opinion. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:11 | |
It teaches our kids team-manship, competitiveness, | 0:57:11 | 0:57:14 | |
discipline, respect... | 0:57:14 | 0:57:17 | |
I think all team games are very positive and remember, | 0:57:17 | 0:57:20 | |
we want to tackle childhood obesity. | 0:57:20 | 0:57:22 | |
That will be a big killer, far bigger killer to our kids | 0:57:22 | 0:57:25 | |
than injuries within sports, so let's support it. | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
One point from our audience. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
Somebody who hasn't spoken before. Yes. | 0:57:29 | 0:57:31 | |
I appreciate and understand what the whole panel have said. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
However, with many things within school, | 0:57:34 | 0:57:38 | |
why aren't the children being asked what they think? | 0:57:38 | 0:57:41 | |
Thank you very much, everybody, we've got to stop. Time's up. | 0:57:41 | 0:57:45 | |
We're in Dundee next week, as I said earlier on. | 0:57:45 | 0:57:47 | |
We have the Conservative leader in Scotland, Ruth Davidson, | 0:57:47 | 0:57:50 | |
with us on the panel | 0:57:50 | 0:57:52 | |
and the SNP's Deputy First Minister, John Swinney, | 0:57:52 | 0:57:54 | |
on the panel as well. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:56 | |
The week after that, we're going to be in Chelmsford, | 0:57:56 | 0:57:58 | |
no idea who we're going to have on the panel then. | 0:57:58 | 0:58:00 | |
But if you want to come to Dundee or Chelmsford, | 0:58:00 | 0:58:03 | |
go to our website or call... | 0:58:03 | 0:58:04 | |
If you're listening to this on Radio 5 Live, | 0:58:06 | 0:58:08 | |
as you know, this debate carries on through the night | 0:58:08 | 0:58:11 | |
until one or two or three, | 0:58:11 | 0:58:12 | |
I don't know when it stops in the morning - | 0:58:12 | 0:58:14 | |
a lot to talk about. | 0:58:14 | 0:58:16 | |
That goes on on Question Time Extra Time. | 0:58:16 | 0:58:18 | |
But here in Liverpool, my thanks to our panel and to all of you | 0:58:18 | 0:58:22 | |
who came to take part in this edition of Question Time. | 0:58:22 | 0:58:25 | |
Until next Thursday, from all of us here, goodnight. | 0:58:25 | 0:58:28 |