25/02/2016 Question Time


25/02/2016

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Poole, Dorset. On the panel are Elizabeth Truss, Diane Abbott, Julia Hartley-Brewer, Giles Fraser and Julian Fellowes.


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Transcript


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Tonight, we are in Poole in Dorset, and this is Question Time.

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And of course, welcome to all of you and to people watching at home,

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or listening on the radio,

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and to our panel. Tonight, our panel is

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the Conservative Environment Secretary, Elizabeth Truss,

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Labour's Shadow International Development Secretary, Diane Abbott,

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the columnist and broadcaster, Julia Hartley-Brewer,

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the parish priest and Guardian columnist, Giles Fraser,

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and the creator of Downton Abbey

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who takes the Tory whip in the House of Lords, Julian Fellowes.

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APPLAUSE

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As always, a reminder you can join in this debate from home.

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Facebook, Twitter, #bbcqt.

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You can like us or not as you choose.

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You can follow us - @BBCQuestionTime,

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you can text comments to 83981, press the red button to see what

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others are saying.

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Before I take the first question, we are now into the

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referendum campaign, I suppose.

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We've got just 17 weeks to go before the vote.

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So here on Question Time,

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we're going to be trying to balance our panels

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and our audiences to meet both sides of the argument.

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Tonight, for instance, we have

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two politicians who want Britain to remain and three

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non-politicians, who I think we shall see, want to leave.

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And we'll chop and change as the weeks go on.

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And we'll expect everybody on either side to

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speak up loudly in the audience,

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so that we don't get accused of bias.

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Darrel Kwong, please, has the first question.

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323,000 net immigration. Surely we have to leave the EU

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to get control?

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OK. We have to leave the EU to get control of immigration.

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Big point. Liz Truss.

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It is certainly the case

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that we have to do more to address immigration.

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We have worked very hard on this.

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We've put in a cap for migrants

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from outside the EU.

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And the deal that David Cameron has negotiated in Europe will mean

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that we do reduce the pull factors in terms of welfare and benefits,

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so that people can't start claiming the minute they arrive in Britain,

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and they do have to look for a job straightaway.

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And if they don't get a job, then they will have to leave.

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That is what is really important to British people, that

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the rules are fair and people...

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Are you going to get down to the 100,000 that Cameron promised?

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And people aren't getting something for nothing.

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Are you going to get down to the 100,000? 300,000 at the moment.

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That is still our aim, David, and we have seen the most recent

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figures in quarterly returns have dipped slightly.

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But we do need to make more progress.

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But what I would say here is,

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in terms of our debate about the European Union,

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free movement of people is a very important

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part of the single market. And the single market brings huge

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benefits to Britain.

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There is £150 billion worth of trade

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we do with the single market every year.

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We've got access to everything, unfettered access to selling our

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services, selling our goods, selling our farmed products.

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And I think it would be hugely damaging for us to leave

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that single market.

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But Darrel is talking about immigration. There are lots of

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aspects to this vote. He's talking about immigration.

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What I am saying is that free movement does go hand in hand

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with being part of the single market,

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so anybody who says that they want to get rid

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of free movement also has to accept

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that means getting out, in some way, of the single market.

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It means not being able to sell our goods and services.

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It means less growth here in Britain,

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and it means people not being able to benefit from those

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exports, which means jobs, it means businesses,

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-it means people being able to buy their homes.

-OK, but...

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What I am saying is there is no utopia

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where we can simply close the borders and say,

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our economy will remain intact and remain the same.

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-It won't.

-The question is about immigration.

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If we left the EU, in your opinion would we be able to control

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immigration and get it down to the kind of figures

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the Tory Government promised?

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Of course we could totally close our borders and close off trade with

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the rest of the world, but we would be very, very poorly off

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-and we would see economic stagnation.

-All right.

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And I don't think that's an option.

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-Julian Fellowes.

-We know also that we don't have enough

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skills in this country and what we need to do is build up

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the skills of our young people to be able to do those jobs like

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engineering, where we do not have enough people to do those jobs.

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-Julian Fellowes.

-I think the element of immigration

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that gets rather lost in the EU conversation is that a great

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many of the immigrants who want to come to this country

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are nothing to do with the EU.

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And we don't seem to have a frightfully effective policy

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there, even though we are not fettered by the EU laws

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dealing with people outside.

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We obviously need a better policy. But like everyone else here,

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I am sure, I am very torn by this,

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because people talk about, "They are only financial immigrants",

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whatever the term is,

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"They're not really persecuted, they just want a better life."

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Well, why shouldn't they want a better life?

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APPLAUSE

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I don't understand that.

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I think we obviously have to find a better balance,

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we obviously have to find a policy, but we never

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want to shut our doors completely. We're all agreed on that.

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In your opinion, would one of the advantages of leaving the EU be

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that you could get better control over immigration?

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Is that something you'd think of as an advantage?

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You could have obviously a better control of the EU area

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because we would not be part of the freedom of movement.

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Would you like to see that happen?

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I'd like to be out, we'll get to that later,

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but actually the immigration is not my reason.

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Obviously you would control the borders better

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but I think we need a better immigration policy across the board,

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-and that is it.

-The woman there.

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-I'm sorry, but I can't accept...

-Sorry, start... Yeah, go on.

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Sorry. I was just saying I'm sorry, but I can't accept

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Liz's argument that they are trying to remove the pull

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factors for migrants, because what is increasing the living wage to

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£9 in 2020 going to do?

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Especially Eastern Europeans who have a minimum wage that's already

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one tenth of what ours is.

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Surely that's going to increase net migration.

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So what would you do? Not touch the minimum wage,

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or get out of the EU and control the borders?

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I would get out of the EU so we could have a fair,

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points based system, so we don't favour

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people from outside the EU over people in the EU.

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Because we can have someone unskilled within Europe

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coming in without any questions, but a really talented doctor from

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India has to go through a really intensive process.

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-It doesn't make sense.

-OK. Diane Abbott. Will you answer that?

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Pick up her point if you would.

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APPLAUSE

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My parents were immigrants.

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So the audience will forgive me if I say

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I worry about a narrative on immigration which only stresses

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the negatives, which...

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APPLAUSE

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..which is riddled with myths,

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that immigrants just come here to sit down and live off benefits,

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and actually panders to people, and raises expectations that you can

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clear the streets of anyone foreign looking,

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when in 2016, in the globalised world, it's not going to happen.

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I was in the House of Commons this week,

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and one of his own Conservative MPs asked David Cameron,

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with his fiddling around with benefits, how many fewer migrants

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will we see? He didn't answer.

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Cameron's renegotiation is a con, it's a con,

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it's about managing the Tory party.

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It's all about his internal management of the Tory party.

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There are reasons to stay in Europe,

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there are reasons to stay out of Europe.

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I personally am glad we're having a referendum.

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It should be the people's referendum. It shouldn't be

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dominated by the games they are playing in the Tory party,

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Dave versus Boris.

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I think we should look at the real issues, have a genuine debate.

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It's a once-in-a-lifetime debate...

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We know all that.

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-All right...

-Wait a minute. The question... I want to go back to the

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question that Darrel asked, which was about immigration.

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You know the Tory party had this plan at the last election in the

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-manifesto to limit immigration to tens of thousands.

-Yeah, but...

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What's your opinion on the level of immigration

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that this country should try to achieve,

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or do you think it should be open to anybody?

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We've never had...

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This country's never had an open door on immigration.

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No. What do you think?

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-Well...

-Where have you been...?

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I've actually been in Hackney, dealing with thousands of people

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every year trying to get their relatives

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and their mothers and their children in.

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That's where I've been. That's why I know we don't have

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open door immigration.

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I wouldn't want to give a figure.

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I think the important thing is we have a fair immigration system,

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an immigration system which works for our economy.

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I don't think you can give a figure.

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I think the Tories have got into trouble

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putting out figures which they can't meet.

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Julia... I'll come to you, Darrel, in a moment. Julia.

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Before I get to the substance, can I question, Diane,

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whether you did want us to have a referendum?

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Because in 2011 you voted against having a referendum

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because you don't think the British people should have a say.

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-Is that not right?

-No.

-Are you sure?

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The problem I have is we've got two politicians here, Diane Abbott

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-who was...

-Can I answer your question?

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-Can I answer your question?

-No.

-You did ask it.

-Yeah.

-Be brief.

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I have always argued, inside the party,

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that we should come out for a referendum.

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That's always been my position.

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You voted against a referendum in 2011.

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-I'm a loyal party member, what can I do?

-You voted against...

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Anyway. OK, we've got two politicians, Diane Abbott,

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who was a member of the Labour Party

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which basically had an open immigration policy with

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the rest of Europe without ever asking the British people

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for consent, and Liz Truss,

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who's clearly a fully paid up member of Project Fear.

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I don't know about you, I'm waiting for the plagues of locusts.

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APPLAUSE

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No-one is suggesting the choice is between an open door

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immigration policy and no-one coming here at all.

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What we should have is a policy that virtually every

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country in the world has, which is that we let in people

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that we need and want and we don't let in other people.

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It's not complicated. Hundreds of other countries manage to do it.

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-And it's very simple.

-But...

-No. Can I...?

-No. Hold on a second.

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APPLAUSE

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To Darrel's question, do you think that can only

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be achieved by leaving the EU?

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Yeah, absolutely it can only be achieved by leaving the EU.

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Certainly not the deal that David Cameron has got.

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The idea that if we want to have free trade with Europe,

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that we have to have an open door policy is absolute nonsense.

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What Norway, Switzerland or other

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smaller countries have negotiated is not the same as

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a negotiation from the fifth biggest economy in the world.

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The fact is, there is no other country that has

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full access to the single market without having

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free movement of people.

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It was the way it was set up in the first place.

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It was about free movement of goods, services, people and capital.

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-That is the whole concept of the single market.

-All right...

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You're saying you can pick and choose between one element of it.

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-Yes, you can.

-You can't.

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And the fact is that Europe exports 7% of its products to Britain...

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-We'll come to that.

-..and Britain exports 44% to Europe.

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We'll come to that. You keep saying, "the fact is".

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We'll come to what you think the facts are, but I want to go back to

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the questioner before I come to Giles.

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Darrel, what do you make of what you have heard so far?

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I can only go from my own experiences.

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I work in the private rented sector and I deal with letting agents.

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One of the reason as to why rents are so high is

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because of migration into places like Diane's Hackney,

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where she complains about the cost of renting.

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One of the reasons is that the demand is so high and we do not have

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the resources to deal with it, so we need to be doing something

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-moving forward.

-And leaving the EU is your view?

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It is one of the things that we can control, in addition to others

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but I certainly believe that we should leave the EU.

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-Giles Fraser, your turn.

-I want to disrupt the link that you've

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made, because I'm in favour of leaving the EU.

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I'm a keen Brexiter.

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I would have us have more immigration into this country

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and not less. And that is not a popular view.

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And the reason is at the moment because there is a humanitarian

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crisis in the Middle East.

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APPLAUSE

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And it's not just about whether we need doctors and

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engineers and professional people and what would be

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in our advantage, and whether rents would go up and go down.

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There are people in

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places like Aleppo and in Syria, who are having barrel bombs

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dropped on them, they're fleeing for their lives.

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You and your family, me and my family, I'd be fleeing for

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my life, and I would want there to be

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a country that had the humanitarian principles

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that at a time like this would open their doors.

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Yes, it might be difficult for us. It might be.

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But for me, there is a basic Christian principle about

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welcoming the stranger in need, and at this time

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I would want us to be generous, and probably more

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generous than we feel comfortable, in order to accept

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people who are fleeing for their lives.

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Giles...

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APPLAUSE

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You make the point about Syria, but if you exclude Syria from

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the argument, if you exclude the millions of people

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who have left Syria for Turkey and wherever,

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On the general point that Darrel's making about immigration

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from the European countries, you say you want to get out of the EU.

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They would then not have automatic access here

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and you would approve of that?

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The truth of the matter is, if we came out of the European Union

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it would mean perhaps that we would have

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greater control over our borders.

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It does not mean we would close our borders, necessarily,

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it means we have greater control over them.

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It could be that we would be generous

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with our immigration policy.

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For me, the whole reason that I think it is right for us to

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come out of the European Union is a basic principle of democracy,

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is that we should be in charge of our own future.

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And that we elect these politicians on our behalf,

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and it is not for them to give that power away to someone else.

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They must return it to us

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when the election comes round again, undiminished.

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And they shouldn't give away what is not theirs to give.

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So it's a basic principle of democracy.

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APPLAUSE

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Can I just say one more thing?

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This debate is going to be very narrow and very nasty

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if we make the debate about Europe,

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a once-in-a-lifetime debate, simply about immigration.

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-That would be a huge mistake.

-All right.

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APPLAUSE

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You, sir, at the back.

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We're going to move on to another aspect of it because I'm aware

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that everybody's minds are focused

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at the moment, because of this June 23rd vote,

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on all the aspects of the EU.

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You, sir. We'll move on to the thing about trade in a moment. Yes.

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I think Britain's been very generous towards immigration over the years.

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For years and years and years. And I hope

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we will be, to some extent.

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But, the gentleman and Diane,

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where are these people going to live?

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You know. On the streets?

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There's going to be more crime. There has to be another way.

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We cannot keep getting flooded and flooded with immigrants.

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Where's the infrastructure coming from? Where are they going to live?

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-It will be like a ghetto.

-Oh! That is outrageous, look...

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-Can I...?

-You go.

-I say that as the son of a Polish immigrant

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and very proud of it, too.

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Can I just say, this narrative, which suggests that immigrants

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are a dead weight on the economy, that they contribute nothing, that

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-they are just a huge problem...

-I didn't say that.

-No, let me...

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The country cannot be swamped. It is logic.

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Without immigration, from the Second World War onwards,

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we wouldn't have the National Health Service we have today.

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I know, I wouldn't be here!

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I don't think anyone is suggesting no immigration...

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-No, no, I'm talking about the narrative.

-We can't keep on...

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It's a negative narrative and, in the end, it gets us nowhere.

0:16:570:17:00

What do you say to what Giles Fraser said about allowing many more people

0:17:000:17:04

in and being much more generous to people from Syria who are refugees,

0:17:040:17:07

who aren't people coming from Poland like his father,

0:17:070:17:09

but are people from the Middle East?

0:17:090:17:11

I visited, in the past few weeks, the refugee camp

0:17:110:17:15

at Calais and I visited Lesbos,

0:17:150:17:17

where Syrian refugees were also coming into,

0:17:170:17:21

and the conditions in Calais are disgusting.

0:17:210:17:24

-They are inhumane.

-..let them come over to the UK - you are

0:17:240:17:28

-just spreading the problem.

-I certainly...

-It is all

0:17:280:17:30

very well saying, yes, we can have an open-door policy...

0:17:300:17:34

-I do...

-Let her answer the question.

0:17:340:17:37

I don't think that we are taking our fair share of Syrian refugees.

0:17:370:17:45

APPLAUSE

0:17:450:17:49

These are people in desperate circumstances,

0:17:490:17:53

being exploited by people traffickers.

0:17:530:17:56

I think we should step up and take a fair share.

0:17:560:18:00

-That's the human argument.

-Liz Truss?

0:18:000:18:03

It is much better to take the approach we are taking,

0:18:030:18:07

which is to have a comprehensive solution that helps people nearer

0:18:070:18:12

their home rather than attracting people to Europe into the arms of

0:18:120:18:17

the people traffickers who are killing people day after day.

0:18:170:18:22

I think it is a huge problem,

0:18:220:18:24

if we attract more migrants, refugees to Europe.

0:18:240:18:28

-What will you do about the people in Europe?

-We are the second

0:18:280:18:32

biggest bilateral donor in Syria.

0:18:320:18:34

We are helping sort out the problem at source, give people homes and

0:18:340:18:38

-make sure that they have a sustainable future...

-Sorry, give

0:18:380:18:42

-people homes? What homes are we giving people?

-We are giving them...

0:18:420:18:47

-Tents.

-Tents.

-..accommodation close to Syria,

0:18:470:18:49

close to their homes, rather than them taking

0:18:490:18:52

a perilous journey, falling into the arms of the people traffickers

0:18:520:18:57

and then failing to accommodate those people in Europe.

0:18:570:19:01

-All right.

-We are taking 20,000 refugees but we are doing it in an

0:19:010:19:04

organised and systematic way so people are properly accommodated

0:19:040:19:09

here in the UK, and that is the right approach.

0:19:090:19:11

Can I say, if Diane wants to help the Syrian refugees, why didn't you

0:19:110:19:14

support military action against Assad and Syria...Isis?

0:19:140:19:17

Do you really think that bombing Syria would have helped anything?

0:19:170:19:22

I think bombing Assad's forces would help, yes.

0:19:220:19:24

The woman in the fifth row?

0:19:240:19:26

I think my view is that a group of my friends, who are all nurses, have

0:19:260:19:30

been raising money for a couple of weeks and they

0:19:300:19:33

will go over to Calais this weekend to the camps, where they will

0:19:330:19:36

take with them sleeping bags, torches, medical supplies,

0:19:360:19:40

and they have done that with their own money.

0:19:400:19:42

A lot of us have sponsored them to do it. It is not just a case of who

0:19:420:19:45

is coming in, it's the fact we are turning a blind eye to these people

0:19:450:19:49

in need and we are not going out to help anyone with the exception of

0:19:490:19:52

sending warplanes over to bomb Syria.

0:19:520:19:55

Hear, hear.

0:19:550:19:56

APPLAUSE

0:19:560:19:58

OK. You, in blue, the man in blue?

0:19:580:20:01

I think the argument has got a little bit more towards

0:20:010:20:03

immigration. I think we, the British public, are quite selfish.

0:20:030:20:07

We love all the benefits of the EU without any of the disadvantages.

0:20:070:20:11

Let's face it, it is more about - it is more than just immigration.

0:20:110:20:16

Let's not forget, any of us, at any time, can go to any of these

0:20:160:20:20

countries and live there. We have many UK nationals out...

0:20:200:20:23

Absolutely right.

0:20:230:20:25

What happens to all those people when we close our borders?

0:20:250:20:29

All right. We will go on to

0:20:290:20:31

the wider aspect of jobs and the economy. Margaret Malt has a

0:20:310:20:34

question. Let's stick with Europe for the moment, Margaret Malt.

0:20:340:20:38

If we leave the EU, would there be job losses

0:20:380:20:43

and would EU trading be affected?

0:20:430:20:45

-Julia Hartley-Brewer?

-Well, we have heard talk

0:20:450:20:49

of three million job losses and a complete

0:20:490:20:53

closing down of all trade from the Project Fear brigade.

0:20:530:20:57

Absolute loads of codswallop. It...

0:20:570:20:59

APPLAUSE

0:20:590:21:02

I, genuinely, I was a political editor for many years,

0:21:050:21:08

and I have honestly never heard more nonsense talked about on any subject

0:21:080:21:12

ever in my time as a political journalist.

0:21:120:21:15

I very much agree with Giles on the issue of sovereignty and democracy,

0:21:150:21:18

but I know that when it comes to voting on June 23rd, most of us will

0:21:180:21:21

be concerned about security

0:21:210:21:22

and also the economy, and are our jobs safe,

0:21:220:21:25

is our trade going to be safe?

0:21:250:21:27

We had lots of nonsense coming out last week, with letters

0:21:270:21:31

from FTSE 100 Chief Executives, 36 signed a letter saying

0:21:310:21:35

the perils of leaving the EU.

0:21:350:21:38

Of course, two-thirds of FTSE 100 Chief Executives chose

0:21:380:21:41

not to sign the letter, and a small point,

0:21:410:21:44

15 of the 36 have received EU funding and eight of the 36

0:21:440:21:49

in 2003 warned of the perils of not joining the EU and

0:21:490:21:54

how our economy would collapse. How's that working out?

0:21:540:21:57

What do you think would happen, Julia, if the vote was Brexit?

0:21:570:22:00

How long would it take?

0:22:000:22:01

-You've seen the figures about sterling falling.

-Yep.

0:22:010:22:04

In the Financial Times today, it says it will be a difficult

0:22:040:22:08

-two-year period, do you agree with that?

-I think it will be a

0:22:080:22:11

difficult period, but no more difficult than any democracy when

0:22:110:22:14

they have a vote and make a decision to do something new.

0:22:140:22:16

The reality is we are not Norway, not Switzerland, not Canada,

0:22:160:22:19

we are the fifth biggest economy in the world. We will be

0:22:190:22:22

able to negotiate a deal.

0:22:220:22:23

If you seriously think that the French and the Germans will go,

0:22:230:22:27

"Right, you have knifed us in the back, we are off, we don't

0:22:270:22:29

"care any more," and Mercedes and BMW won't be in Angela Merkel's

0:22:290:22:32

office the next day saying,

0:22:320:22:34

"Are you insane? Britain is one of our biggest markets."

0:22:340:22:37

They need to trade with us as much as we need to trade with them.

0:22:370:22:41

They are not going to do us over. One final point...

0:22:410:22:46

David Cameron's argument seems to be that they will knife us in the back,

0:22:480:22:52

they will turn us over if we do that.

0:22:520:22:55

That's the same argument you give to a battered wife

0:22:550:22:57

in a domestic abusive relationship.

0:22:570:22:59

Go back to your violent husband, or he might hurt you even more.

0:22:590:23:02

If they are our friend, they will want to trade with us.

0:23:020:23:05

Actually, what the Foreign Secretary

0:23:050:23:08

said was that a Leave vote would be seen as two fingers to Europe

0:23:080:23:12

and they would give two fingers back to us and therefore...

0:23:120:23:16

And they don't want to sell us any cars, they don't want to

0:23:160:23:19

sell anything to us? 16% of goods and services sold by the EU are sold

0:23:190:23:22

-to the British people.

-Ask Liz Truss.

0:23:220:23:25

I think Britain is a great country, a fantastic country.

0:23:250:23:28

Of course we could do well if we were outside the EU. I think the

0:23:280:23:32

question is, how much better can we do by staying in the EU

0:23:320:23:37

and continuing to take advantage of full access

0:23:370:23:41

to the single market? No other country has full access to goods and

0:23:410:23:46

services without being part of free movement,

0:23:460:23:50

without accepting those regulations and making sure that we

0:23:500:23:55

share the rules and the system of Europe.

0:23:550:23:59

Now, if people do want to leave, and I think it is a perfectly

0:23:590:24:03

respectable point of view, I think they have to say what

0:24:030:24:07

the alternative would look like and what the model would look like.

0:24:070:24:10

The fact is, there is a process, a two-year process,

0:24:100:24:13

where we will be in limbo as a country, we will be in a

0:24:130:24:16

twilight zone, where we are looking

0:24:160:24:19

at what the future options might look like,

0:24:190:24:22

-we...

-That is not very long.

-It could be longer than two years.

0:24:220:24:26

We know how long it does take to reach decisions in the EU.

0:24:260:24:31

-That is an argument for the EU, is it?

-Well...

0:24:310:24:35

-It is not just...

-Laughable! Laughable!

0:24:350:24:37

It's not just the EU...

0:24:370:24:39

So, let me give you one example from Defra.

0:24:400:24:44

We are still negotiating to open up the US market to British beef,

0:24:440:24:49

20 years after that market was closed due to BSE.

0:24:490:24:53

That is how long trade negotiations take.

0:24:530:24:56

So, what do you think would happen?

0:24:560:24:58

We have 53 agreements with different countries around the world through

0:24:580:25:02

the EU. Those would have to be renegotiated, the single

0:25:020:25:06

-market access would have to be renegotiated.

-People know that

0:25:060:25:10

because you've said that and everybody has said that. What do you

0:25:100:25:13

think the damage of that would be? That's what's interesting.

0:25:130:25:16

How much will unemployment go up by? How much would trade fall by?

0:25:160:25:19

How much would sterling fall by? Have you done an assessment of

0:25:190:25:22

that when you come to defence of the government position?

0:25:220:25:25

The Government will be producing an assessment...

0:25:250:25:27

You haven't got it yet?

0:25:270:25:29

Not yet. There will be an economic analysis.

0:25:290:25:32

But not only will we spend our time trying to disentangle ourselves

0:25:320:25:36

from these arrangements with the EU, think of

0:25:360:25:39

all the stuff we could be doing instead. Think of what is

0:25:390:25:41

really important in terms of improving our country, raising our

0:25:410:25:45

productivity, reforming our welfare system, making sure our schools

0:25:450:25:49

are better, thinking about the Health Service. We will have the

0:25:490:25:52

entire Government machine tied up with disentangling ourselves from

0:25:520:25:55

-Europe, possibly never to get a better solution anyway.

-All right.

0:25:550:26:00

If you think four months is long to talk about this, imagine what five

0:26:000:26:04

-or ten years talking about this...

-So we shouldn't have had

0:26:040:26:07

-a referendum at all?

-I think it is

0:26:070:26:09

right that people decide, but I know what I think is right for Britain.

0:26:090:26:13

Giles Fraser.

0:26:130:26:15

So, people say economically, it will be a leap into the dark.

0:26:150:26:20

We pay 50 million a day to the EU.

0:26:200:26:24

We get some of it back, of course, when they let us, in the way

0:26:240:26:30

they want, but in effect...

0:26:300:26:32

Sorry. Let's hit this thing on the head of 50 million. The National

0:26:320:26:37

-Audit Office figure is £15 million net of what is given back.

-Hang on,

0:26:370:26:41

-I'm coming on to that.

-Yes, but this quote of 50 million, it is

0:26:410:26:45

easy on the ear, but it is not accurate, is it?

0:26:450:26:48

So... We are down £11 billion a year for being in

0:26:480:26:54

-Europe.

-It doesn't help your case to quote £50 billion when

0:26:540:26:59

-it is not the right figure.

-It's 7 billion.

0:26:590:27:01

So we give it out and we get some back, which is

0:27:010:27:04

exactly what I said to start with.

0:27:040:27:06

But the point I'm trying to make is, that I think we would be,

0:27:060:27:09

we would be a net beneficiary financially of coming out and that

0:27:090:27:13

in itself is not a leap into the dark, that seems to be a leap into

0:27:130:27:17

what I understand to be - I won't bandy figures -

0:27:170:27:20

£11 billion-plus. That seems to be a pretty good leap into the dark...

0:27:200:27:24

-This compares...

-Hang on. I'm happy to accept, let me concede the point,

0:27:240:27:29

I'm happy to accept I might be wrong about the figures.

0:27:290:27:32

I'm not bandying figures about, that's boring.

0:27:320:27:34

-Even if...

-You were bandying them around.

0:27:340:27:37

That's what you were doing!

0:27:370:27:38

So, even if we are poorer, I think

0:27:380:27:41

democracy is not for sale. That is a fundamental point. Even if we

0:27:410:27:46

are a bit poorer, and the economic stuff that is going on in Europe,

0:27:460:27:50

for me the crucial stuff, how the Greek people were treated in their

0:27:500:27:55

financial crisis by the Europeans, how...

0:27:550:27:58

APPLAUSE

0:27:580:28:02

Shamelessly. How trade deals are being negotiated - TTIP -

0:28:020:28:05

in our name without us knowing

0:28:050:28:07

a single thing about what is going on.

0:28:070:28:11

This is the problem economically.

0:28:110:28:15

I don't want to nickel and dime over whether we will be a bit

0:28:150:28:18

poorer or richer, personally,

0:28:180:28:20

I don't think democracy is for sale, we should come out.

0:28:200:28:22

OK. Let's hear from the audience. You, sir, in the front row?

0:28:220:28:26

Unemployment is at a record low and the economy is one of

0:28:280:28:31

the best performing in Europe.

0:28:310:28:33

-Is that because of Europe or despite Europe?

-Diane Abbott?

0:28:330:28:37

One of the... It is partly because of Europe.

0:28:370:28:41

One of the strongest arguments for

0:28:410:28:45

voting to stay in the EU is what coming out of

0:28:450:28:49

the EU would do to jobs and the economy.

0:28:490:28:52

That's why the Labour Party and all of the trade unions

0:28:520:28:55

are in favour of staying in. Julia...

0:28:550:28:58

Not all of the trade unions.

0:28:580:29:01

ASLEF and RMT are not in favour.

0:29:010:29:04

They are not manufacturing unions. My point is this.

0:29:040:29:08

They will continue to sell to us,

0:29:080:29:10

but our ability to sell to Europe could be

0:29:100:29:15

fatally hampered by tariffs and a tariff war.

0:29:150:29:20

The other point is this. There is a great deal of manufacturing

0:29:200:29:24

in this country, car manufacturers to begin with.

0:29:240:29:28

Those manufacturers from Japan and so on are only here

0:29:280:29:32

because we are within the EU. There are financial services

0:29:320:29:36

companies that are only in London because we are within the EU.

0:29:360:29:39

I think there are two problems.

0:29:390:29:41

One - our goods would face a tariff fall,

0:29:410:29:44

and the other - that bit by bit, the headquarters of firms that have

0:29:440:29:48

only come here because we're in the EU would relocate to the Continent.

0:29:480:29:53

Julian, I'm going to come to you,

0:29:530:29:54

but I'd like to hear from some members of the audience before I do.

0:29:540:29:57

The woman over there, and then

0:29:570:29:59

I'll come to you, sir, in the pink shirt. Yes?

0:29:590:30:01

It's OK with the EU market,

0:30:010:30:03

but surely our biggest price we have to pay is our safety.

0:30:030:30:06

We've been letting in terrorists willy-nilly

0:30:060:30:08

without actually checking them through,

0:30:080:30:10

so what's the excuse? That's what I want to know.

0:30:100:30:12

-So, terrorism is what do you think is the major issue?

-Yeah, it is.

0:30:120:30:15

Because our safety... It's all right staying in the EU market,

0:30:150:30:18

but how many are we letting through through the EU?

0:30:180:30:21

OK, and you, sir, in the pink shirt.

0:30:210:30:24

There are many people that trade

0:30:240:30:25

with the EU that are not in the EU. Countries like China.

0:30:250:30:28

-Yes. Funnily enough.

-They pay tariffs.

0:30:280:30:32

We don't have to be in the EU to trade with the EU.

0:30:340:30:37

But they have to pay tariffs.

0:30:370:30:39

But you would have to pay a higher tariff.

0:30:390:30:42

And they don't have access to the services market,

0:30:420:30:44

which is really important.

0:30:440:30:46

Two thirds of our economy is services,

0:30:460:30:48

and they don't have access to that.

0:30:480:30:51

Isn't it amazing that only four of the G20 countries are in the EU,

0:30:510:30:54

and yet somehow manage to survive. I wonder how they do that?

0:30:540:30:58

The man there. Yes, you, sir, with the brown pullover on.

0:30:590:31:05

You all keep saying that the referendum...

0:31:050:31:08

There needs to be a referendum because the people need to decide.

0:31:080:31:11

But I was just wondering,

0:31:110:31:13

with everyone throwing these facts around like 50 billion figure

0:31:130:31:16

for political point scoring,

0:31:160:31:18

how are the British people supposed to decide

0:31:180:31:20

when they haven't got the right information?

0:31:200:31:23

Well, and it goes to the heart of it,

0:31:230:31:26

because a lot of people say give us the facts,

0:31:260:31:29

tell us what the consequences of one thing or the other would be.

0:31:290:31:33

Julian Fellowes, how do you think people should survive?

0:31:330:31:35

I'll come to you later.

0:31:350:31:36

I don't really think whether

0:31:360:31:38

we should stay in or get out is a financial argument.

0:31:380:31:42

I agree that it is a complete fantasy to think that

0:31:420:31:45

the car manufacturers of Germany

0:31:450:31:47

and the wine growers of France are suddenly going to

0:31:470:31:50

turn their back on one of their best markets

0:31:500:31:52

because we're supposed to have made a V sign at them.

0:31:520:31:55

I've worked all my life in a business

0:31:550:31:57

where everyone makes a V sign at you every morning

0:31:570:31:59

and you then get on with the business at hand.

0:31:590:32:02

It is just nonsense to think that.

0:32:020:32:04

We also will have unfettered access to all sorts of other world markets

0:32:040:32:08

and expand in different ways.

0:32:080:32:11

I would be very surprised if there was really

0:32:110:32:14

much difference in it at all.

0:32:140:32:16

I love being European. I love Europe.

0:32:160:32:18

I think it's great, and I think if we do come out,

0:32:180:32:21

the first thing we should do is try to make as good arrangements

0:32:210:32:24

with everyone, be pals with everyone, set up everything.

0:32:240:32:28

I've been told, "We'll pay almost as much money

0:32:280:32:30

"if we want to go on trading."

0:32:300:32:32

Well, let's do the sums, and if they work let's pay it. That's all fine.

0:32:320:32:36

But we won't have to live under rules

0:32:360:32:39

-we have not wanted or asked for or voted for.

-Hear, hear.

0:32:390:32:42

Yes. The woman in the very back there.

0:32:500:32:52

Yeah, I'm as confused as anybody here.

0:32:520:32:54

I agree with the young girl over there.

0:32:540:32:57

I just can't make my mind up whether we stay in Europe or whether we go.

0:32:570:33:02

Where's this assessment coming from, Liz?

0:33:020:33:04

When are we going to see it so that we can make this informed decision?

0:33:040:33:07

Is it going to be a week before the referendum?

0:33:070:33:09

-A week after?

-The week after?

0:33:090:33:12

There is going to be an assessment produced

0:33:140:33:17

and also a look at the alternative models.

0:33:170:33:20

And that will be produced fairly shortly.

0:33:200:33:23

But I think it is clear that if you look at the exit process,

0:33:230:33:28

there will be two years of uncertainty,

0:33:280:33:31

and if you look at the access to the European single market,

0:33:310:33:36

including services, which represents two thirds of the UK economy,

0:33:360:33:40

no other country has access to that market without having to

0:33:400:33:44

follow the rules, and we are part of making rules.

0:33:440:33:47

I know some of the rules are frustrating.

0:33:470:33:49

I couldn't agree with you more, Julian.

0:33:490:33:50

As Defra Secretary, I have to deal with them every day.

0:33:500:33:53

But the fact is, if we want export our lamb to Europe,

0:33:530:33:56

and we export 38% of all the lamb we produce to Europe,

0:33:560:34:00

we will have to follow those rules anyway. And that is the problem.

0:34:000:34:03

You know, the question is, do we be part of it

0:34:030:34:06

and help come up with the rules,

0:34:060:34:09

or do we have to follow the rules anyway because it is our closest

0:34:090:34:12

market to us, we are geographically located next to Europe?

0:34:120:34:16

Just come back to this assessment thing you keep talking about

0:34:160:34:19

that's going to come out, for some reason isn't ready yet.

0:34:190:34:23

But it is going to come out.

0:34:230:34:24

Given that the Government has said that civil servants can't

0:34:240:34:28

brief people who are against staying in the EU,

0:34:280:34:31

can only brief ministers who are in favour,

0:34:310:34:34

is anybody going to trust this assessment?

0:34:340:34:37

The Government is parti pris. The Prime Minister has said

0:34:370:34:39

they are going to stay in. APPLAUSE

0:34:390:34:42

David, we have an impartial civil service, which is responsible...

0:34:420:34:49

Why aren't they allowed to advise the people who want to exit?

0:34:490:34:52

They are able to provide facts,

0:34:520:34:55

they are able to provide facts to all ministers,

0:34:550:34:58

regardless of whether those ministers have taken the decision

0:34:580:35:02

that they want to leave the official Government position and leave.

0:35:020:35:05

-No, they are not.

-They are able to provide facts.

0:35:050:35:07

But Heywood specifically forbade giving information to people

0:35:070:35:11

who were in favour of coming out.

0:35:110:35:13

I mean, that is what we are told in the papers, anyway.

0:35:130:35:15

I can assure you, Julian,

0:35:150:35:17

in Defra we have ministers of both sets of opinions,

0:35:170:35:20

and all ministers are provided with the facts by the civil servants,

0:35:200:35:24

and civil servants are impartial.

0:35:240:35:27

They are not allowed to take sides in this debate.

0:35:270:35:29

Does that include the civil servant who wrote to

0:35:290:35:31

the FTSE 100 companies asking them

0:35:310:35:33

to sign that letter supporting staying in?

0:35:330:35:35

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:35:350:35:38

-I think...

-Yes, you.

0:35:380:35:41

My major concern here is we've got two politicians on the panel

0:35:410:35:45

and we've got our politicians...

0:35:450:35:48

We voted for them,

0:35:480:35:51

and yet they want to be subservient to the European Union.

0:35:510:35:55

And I'm just concerned that they are second-rate politicians

0:35:550:36:02

being lorded over by the European Parliament.

0:36:020:36:04

-That's a bit harsh!

-Can I say - we live in an interconnected world.

0:36:040:36:09

We are members of Nato, we are members of the WTO, we are

0:36:090:36:14

members of the European Union.

0:36:140:36:15

We have to work with other countries to get things done.

0:36:150:36:18

We do not invite second-rate politicians

0:36:180:36:20

onto the Question Time panel.

0:36:200:36:22

-We only invite...

-Thanks, David.

-We only invite the first rank.

0:36:220:36:27

You're being dictated to by the European Parliament.

0:36:270:36:29

You may disagree with them,

0:36:290:36:30

but they are the first rank of politicians that are on offer.

0:36:300:36:33

LAUGHTER I put that caveat in.

0:36:330:36:35

Why aren't they fighting for us, then,

0:36:350:36:37

against the European Parliament?

0:36:370:36:39

But the question is, do we stay in Europe

0:36:390:36:41

and fight for the rules that we want, or do we leave it...

0:36:410:36:44

But you are not! You're not doing it.

0:36:440:36:45

..and end up having to follow those rules

0:36:450:36:47

because we want to do trade with that market?

0:36:470:36:49

You can still trade with it.

0:36:490:36:51

We're members of organisations like Nato, the WTO -

0:36:510:36:53

we have to work with other countries to get things done.

0:36:530:36:56

That's what politics is about.

0:36:560:36:59

I must say, my favourite part of Project Fear is that we should all

0:36:590:37:03

vote to stay in because otherwise we won't get cheap flights.

0:37:030:37:08

The idea that whether or not you can fly on Queasy Jet should

0:37:080:37:12

decide the future of this country is rather extraordinary to me.

0:37:120:37:16

The woman in blue, there. You.

0:37:160:37:18

Am I the only person here who has

0:37:180:37:20

a member of the economic Parliament... European Parliament?

0:37:200:37:24

Cos we do have people who represent us in Europe.

0:37:240:37:27

They haven't just made decisions about us.

0:37:270:37:30

We have actually voted for people who represent us in Europe.

0:37:300:37:34

Those powers have been given away by our politicians to other

0:37:340:37:37

politicians in other countries and unelected bureaucrats.

0:37:370:37:40

Are you telling me they don't represent our views from Britain?

0:37:400:37:43

Are you telling me that the people that we pay for

0:37:430:37:45

to represent us in Europe,

0:37:450:37:47

that they are not representing our views?

0:37:470:37:49

Well, then, let's put them up to account,

0:37:490:37:51

cos if I was a teacher not doing my job, I'd be out of a job.

0:37:510:37:54

-Julia?

-The point is that we have only a tiny say of what

0:37:540:37:58

happens in the European Parliament and a tiny say of what

0:37:580:38:01

happens in the European Council and European Commission.

0:38:010:38:03

-And we are repeatedly voted down. I think 70 cases...

-72.

0:38:030:38:06

-72 since 2010 where David Cameron has...

-We lost 72.

0:38:060:38:09

Yes, we lost all 72. The reality is...

0:38:090:38:11

Of course we have to compromise, of course we have to do deals,

0:38:110:38:14

and we do that in Nato, we do that with the World Trade Organisation,

0:38:140:38:17

we do that with lots of bodies.

0:38:170:38:18

We don't give away our sovereignty to do so.

0:38:180:38:21

Can I just...? Can I ask whether...?

0:38:210:38:25

Can I just ask a question? I know this is a political audience,

0:38:250:38:29

but I'd love to know how many people here know the name of their MEP.

0:38:290:38:32

How many people here know the name of their MEP?

0:38:320:38:34

-If they don't know... I'm not going to test them all.

-Really?

0:38:340:38:38

That's actually rather important.

0:38:380:38:40

-You don't know, David. You don't know their names.

-All right.

0:38:400:38:42

Just hands up if you know the name of your MEP.

0:38:420:38:44

-You do, sir. Who is he or she?

-Clare Moody.

0:38:440:38:47

-Right, what area is that?

-MEP for the South West.

0:38:470:38:50

We've got about 20 hands up in the whole big audience.

0:38:500:38:52

-That really says something.

-Let's go onto another question.

0:38:520:38:55

We won't leave the EU for the moment.

0:38:550:38:58

But just before we go to it, since we've been 40 minutes on this,

0:38:580:39:01

a reminder about where we're going to be next week.

0:39:010:39:04

We are in Liverpool. And the week after that, we are in Dundee.

0:39:040:39:07

And you can apply either by telephone or to our website.

0:39:070:39:10

Let's go to the harsh politics of this,

0:39:100:39:12

and have this question from Harrison Taylor, please.

0:39:120:39:15

Will Boris Johnson be a vote winner in the EU referendum?

0:39:150:39:20

Will Boris Johnson, who has come out as an Out,

0:39:200:39:23

will he... Is he persuasive? Giles Fraser?

0:39:230:39:25

I did actually think when the Prime Minister

0:39:250:39:28

was having a go at Jeremy Corbyn

0:39:280:39:30

for doing up his tie and putting his jacket on,

0:39:300:39:33

I half thought for a minute he was actually having

0:39:330:39:35

a go at Boris about that, and not just Jeremy Corbyn.

0:39:350:39:40

I imagine Boris sings the national anthem,

0:39:400:39:44

-which was the last part of the barb against Corbyn.

-Here's the thing.

0:39:440:39:47

I quite like the fact we are having a debate about this,

0:39:470:39:50

that the Tories are having a debate about this.

0:39:500:39:52

I quite like the fact that you're having unusual alliances

0:39:520:39:56

and that actually, there's a proper debate going on.

0:39:560:39:59

I actually wish there was more

0:39:590:40:01

of a debate in the Labour Party about this going on.

0:40:010:40:03

I think the Labour Party are slightly absent from the field.

0:40:030:40:06

APPLAUSE

0:40:060:40:08

And I wish they would get stuck in more.

0:40:080:40:12

And I quite like the fact that you have a Boris

0:40:120:40:15

and the others arguing with each other.

0:40:150:40:18

I think that is just what we want in our democracy,

0:40:180:40:21

having a proper debate where there aren't any obvious sides any more.

0:40:210:40:25

This is too important an issue

0:40:250:40:27

for it to become one of those tribal playpen issues.

0:40:270:40:30

So really, really good that we have all different people arguing

0:40:300:40:33

with each other, a kaleidoscope which is being shaken up,

0:40:330:40:37

and I think we should all think afresh and anew about this subject.

0:40:370:40:42

And it is really good to see

0:40:420:40:44

politicians breaking the mould about where they stand.

0:40:440:40:47

Why do you think Labour is not arguing about it

0:40:470:40:49

in the way that you would like?

0:40:490:40:52

The Labour Party used to have a good tradition of Euroscepticism,

0:40:520:40:56

with heroes of mine like Tony Benn, and I think probably through

0:40:560:41:01

the Tony Blair period onwards that got squashed out of them.

0:41:010:41:06

And now I suspect Mr Corbyn, in his heart of hearts,

0:41:060:41:10

is very ambivalent about Europe.

0:41:100:41:13

I suspect Diane is secretly pretty ambivalent about Europe, really.

0:41:130:41:17

But they are not really allowed to say so.

0:41:170:41:20

She is smiling a very saturnine kind of smile here beside you.

0:41:200:41:23

And I wish they'd say so more.

0:41:230:41:25

Can we just unleash the Labour Party to have a proper debate on this?

0:41:250:41:29

APPLAUSE

0:41:290:41:31

Diane?

0:41:310:41:33

You have the freedom of the airwaves offered you by Giles

0:41:330:41:36

to unleash your inner self.

0:41:360:41:38

That's very tempting, Giles, but not this minute.

0:41:380:41:43

I sincerely hope this referendum isn't decided as to whether

0:41:430:41:47

people like Boris or not,

0:41:470:41:50

just as I hope that we don't confuse the issue of Europe with

0:41:500:41:54

the issue of the immigration,

0:41:540:41:55

because Julian made a very good point that some of the people that

0:41:550:41:58

many people regard as immigrants are not from Europe at all.

0:41:580:42:01

Just as I hope...

0:42:010:42:02

Somebody said, a couple of people said, and they were right,

0:42:020:42:05

figures, going backwards and forwards...

0:42:050:42:07

I think we need a debate on first principles.

0:42:070:42:11

And one of the principles is that this is 2015...

0:42:110:42:16

16!

0:42:160:42:17

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:42:170:42:21

-One of the principles is...

-Typical Labour, stuck in the past.

0:42:210:42:24

Only a year.

0:42:240:42:27

But my point is a real one.

0:42:270:42:29

There are so many things that are issues to us now

0:42:290:42:34

in the 21st century that are better addressed working with

0:42:340:42:39

other European countries, whether it is climate change,

0:42:390:42:42

whether it is this whole refugee crisis we are facing in Europe.

0:42:420:42:46

The idea that we're going to retreat into ourselves, you know,

0:42:460:42:50

in the 21st century, must be wrong.

0:42:500:42:52

You talked about where the Labour Party is.

0:42:520:42:55

The point to stress is the Labour Party has

0:42:550:42:59

a very different vision of Europe.

0:42:590:43:02

Jeremy Corbyn has a very different vision from David Cameron.

0:43:020:43:05

David Cameron went and was battling to preserve bankers' bonuses.

0:43:050:43:09

He was negotiating this totally fraudulent stuff

0:43:090:43:12

about benefits and immigration.

0:43:120:43:13

We want a Europe that is a social Europe,

0:43:130:43:16

that will protect workers, protect workers' rights,

0:43:160:43:20

that will fight climate change. We want a social Europe,

0:43:200:43:24

but we believe that in the 21st century it must make

0:43:240:43:28

more sense to come together

0:43:280:43:30

with our European neighbours than to retreat into some sort of bastion.

0:43:300:43:36

-Have you changed your view on this in your time in politics?

-On Europe?

0:43:360:43:40

-Yes.

-I've always been a sceptic about the eurozone.

0:43:400:43:45

-And I think I've been proved right. The problem...

-About the EU.

-No, no.

0:43:450:43:51

I've always been pro-Europe.

0:43:510:43:53

But I was always sceptical about the economic aspects of it

0:43:530:43:56

cos there wasn't genuine convergence between the economies,

0:43:560:43:59

and we've seen what happened to Greece.

0:43:590:44:01

The woman there on the left.

0:44:010:44:03

Yes, I was a little concerned about Julia saying something

0:44:030:44:05

related to we will choose who we want and what we need,

0:44:050:44:09

and I think that is a little bit dangerous, choosing people that way.

0:44:090:44:13

But the issue with the referendum, I think it's a disgrace

0:44:130:44:15

to have the Prime Minister forcing this,

0:44:150:44:19

going to Brussels, demanding something that I think

0:44:190:44:22

Ukip forced him into when it's not really about that.

0:44:220:44:26

It's fine to have the discussion about something like this,

0:44:260:44:29

but there are so many different facets of this,

0:44:290:44:32

and really it is not even going to address the issue.

0:44:320:44:36

And I think having a referendum costing

0:44:360:44:39

so much for people to go and vote and do all the polling,

0:44:390:44:42

I think it is a disgrace to spend

0:44:420:44:43

so much money on an issue that really isn't a real issue.

0:44:430:44:48

Why is it not a real issue?

0:44:480:44:49

-It's about the Tory party!

-Because it's not really about

0:44:490:44:53

what he's pushing. Everyone is saying something different.

0:44:530:44:56

Is it really about staying

0:44:560:44:58

in Europe, or is it about being part of

0:44:580:45:01

a party that believes in the same thing?

0:45:010:45:03

Even his frontbenchers don't even agree or support him.

0:45:030:45:06

What do you think it is about?

0:45:060:45:08

I don't think it's about... I think Ukip forced him into a decision...

0:45:080:45:11

The British people demanded it. Democracy costs money.

0:45:110:45:14

We can have a totalitarian state and not bother.

0:45:140:45:16

The British people demanded it or the Conservative Party?

0:45:160:45:19

-The British people demanded it.

-What was the evidence?

0:45:190:45:21

It was quite clear at the time, the polling, again and again,

0:45:210:45:24

the British people at the election before had been promised a referendum and were not given it.

0:45:240:45:28

The British people demanded it, and it was clear that yes,

0:45:280:45:30

of course, the Tories would haemorrhage votes to Ukip

0:45:300:45:33

if they did not give it. That is democracy in action.

0:45:330:45:35

We can have a totalitarian state and not have these expensive elections

0:45:350:45:38

if you prefer, but some of us quite like the chance to vote.

0:45:380:45:41

All right. Julian.

0:45:410:45:42

APPLAUSE

0:45:420:45:44

To, um...

0:45:440:45:46

..to go back to the actual question about Boris,

0:45:470:45:51

the one thing I hate about this,

0:45:510:45:54

I really dislike it, is being at odds with

0:45:540:45:58

the Prime Minister, a man I admire very, very much.

0:45:580:46:01

I don't agree with Diane that he was footling around in his negotiations.

0:46:010:46:07

I think he did extremely well and I doubt anyone could have done better.

0:46:070:46:11

It is the organisation he was wrestling with

0:46:110:46:14

that I have my doubts about, not about him.

0:46:140:46:17

And I think, where it is helpful

0:46:170:46:19

for Michael Gove, and for Boris Johnson, and so on,

0:46:190:46:23

to come on to the Out team, is it allows us

0:46:230:46:25

to see, this is a genuine thing where all sorts of

0:46:250:46:29

people can be split, where we all have all

0:46:290:46:32

political beliefs on one side and the other,

0:46:320:46:34

where this is a different question to the ones normally.

0:46:340:46:39

And, after it is done, after the referendum

0:46:390:46:41

is finished, we must then re-bond, we must bring

0:46:410:46:45

ourselves back together,

0:46:450:46:47

and I think it helpful, just as

0:46:470:46:48

I would find it very helpful if any of

0:46:480:46:51

the Labour heavyweights would come into the Out campaign,

0:46:510:46:54

then you would have a real sense of the fact

0:46:540:46:57

that this is a sort of almost equal discussion

0:46:570:47:00

that we have to have, so I think it is helpful.

0:47:000:47:03

Whether Boris himself persuades people to join it,

0:47:030:47:06

you know, obviously I hope he does because

0:47:060:47:09

that's my team, but we will have to see.

0:47:090:47:12

I think it makes the Out argument and the In argument feel fairly

0:47:120:47:16

equally balanced, which can only be a good thing.

0:47:160:47:19

-But, Julian, do you really think...

-APPLAUSE

0:47:190:47:21

..do you really think, that when this is over,

0:47:210:47:25

-the Conservative Party will be able to re-bond?

-Yes.

0:47:250:47:28

-All right...

-Because I know that all political parties have

0:47:280:47:32

had to go through these very difficult schisms,

0:47:320:47:35

and then you have to get over it.

0:47:350:47:37

It's like a family. "I will never speak to you again,"

0:47:370:47:40

you say as you flounce out and slam the door,

0:47:400:47:43

and, sure enough, by Christmas, there you are.

0:47:430:47:46

LAUGHTER

0:47:460:47:48

You know. And that'll be that.

0:47:480:47:50

You don't even have to wait till Christmas,

0:47:500:47:52

you wait for the next episode on the following Sunday!

0:47:520:47:55

Liz Truss, let's just come to sovereignty,

0:47:550:47:57

which Julian has been talking about.

0:47:570:48:00

Michael Gove, the Justice Secretary,

0:48:000:48:02

who we know thinks the thing won't hang together legally anyway,

0:48:020:48:06

said that every single day, every single minister is told,

0:48:060:48:09

"Yes, Minister," you are a minister,

0:48:090:48:11

"Yes, I understand that, I am afraid it is against EU rules."

0:48:110:48:14

"I know, my colleagues in Government know, it happens all the time."

0:48:140:48:18

When he wants sovereignty restored,

0:48:180:48:20

isn't he right to say you are suffering all the time in your

0:48:200:48:24

position at Defra, from rules that you don't have any...

0:48:240:48:27

We have talked about whether the European Parliament has anything....

0:48:270:48:30

things that you have no direct effect over?

0:48:300:48:33

It does vary from government department to government department,

0:48:330:48:36

so, at Education, I never experienced that.

0:48:360:48:39

In my two years there, there was never a moment where EU rules

0:48:390:48:43

affected what we do.

0:48:430:48:44

And, actually, I think education is incredibly important

0:48:440:48:47

and we have got to think about

0:48:470:48:49

all the things that we do have total say over

0:48:490:48:52

that would get neglected if we spent five years

0:48:520:48:55

renegotiating or negotiating our exit

0:48:550:48:59

from the EU. I think that is very important.

0:48:590:49:01

Now, at Defra, I do have a lot more involvement with the EU...

0:49:010:49:04

Just go back to education, Gove was your superior minister at Education.

0:49:040:49:07

-He was, yes.

-Was he right or wrong to say what he said?

0:49:070:49:10

You said the opposite of what he says.

0:49:100:49:12

In the particular role that I did, which was on schools and childcare,

0:49:120:49:15

I didn't come across the EU in what I did.

0:49:150:49:18

Did you hear Michael Gove complaining at that time

0:49:180:49:20

about the way the EU interfered?

0:49:200:49:22

Well, he is somebody who is very passionate about the EU,

0:49:220:49:25

so of course he talks about the issue a lot.

0:49:250:49:28

I think, what I would say is that when you look at

0:49:280:49:31

our key domestic policies,

0:49:310:49:33

what we need to do to improve productivity,

0:49:330:49:35

whether it is reforming our welfare system,

0:49:350:49:37

reforming our education system, our fiscal policy,

0:49:370:49:41

and David Cameron has made sure we are protected

0:49:410:49:43

from the eurozone in terms of our monetary policy.

0:49:430:49:46

Gordon Brown did that.

0:49:460:49:48

-When you look at all...

-Gordon Brown was the person

0:49:480:49:50

that kept us out of the eurozone.

0:49:500:49:52

I do agree with Diane, that Gordon Brown did contribute to

0:49:520:49:55

staying out of the euro, which was a very good thing.

0:49:550:49:58

Come back to Defra, the bit you know and are working in now.

0:49:580:50:02

So, Defra does have a lot of rules from the EU,

0:50:020:50:05

and we are part of those discussions and negotiations...

0:50:050:50:08

Irritating to you, difficult to you?

0:50:080:50:10

They are irritating, and they are difficult...

0:50:100:50:12

You would rather be Out, then, and have your own...

0:50:120:50:14

..and we have those discussions.

0:50:140:50:16

My view is, that the cost of doing that,

0:50:160:50:19

the cost of being part of those regulations

0:50:190:50:22

and having those discussions,

0:50:220:50:24

is worth the huge benefits we have from being in that market.

0:50:240:50:28

If you look at food and farming alone,

0:50:280:50:31

we are getting £11 billion worth of

0:50:310:50:33

business from being part of those rules.

0:50:330:50:37

If you don't follow those rules, you can't trade.

0:50:370:50:39

The man in the white T-shirt, there.

0:50:390:50:41

While I think it is important that we have an open discussion

0:50:410:50:44

concerning Britain's membership of the EU,

0:50:440:50:46

I think it is equally important

0:50:460:50:48

that the Government should focus on issues

0:50:480:50:50

at hand in our own country,

0:50:500:50:52

and I'm concerned that, perhaps, the Government might be

0:50:520:50:55

-spending too much time and resources on this EU campaign.

-Exactly.

0:50:550:50:58

Liz, can you reassure me

0:50:580:50:59

the Government will be focusing on issues over here?

0:50:590:51:01

APPLAUSE

0:51:010:51:04

-OK. You don't have to.

-I am focused on issues,

0:51:040:51:07

but I am concerned about the national energy and effort

0:51:070:51:11

that we will take five years or more

0:51:110:51:12

disentangling ourselves from the European Union.

0:51:120:51:15

-I think...

-Five?

0:51:150:51:17

It was only two at the start of the programme!

0:51:170:51:19

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

0:51:190:51:21

-All right.

-Julian, it was at least two.

0:51:210:51:24

If we're any longer, it will go to ten!

0:51:240:51:26

At least two, that's my latest estimate.

0:51:260:51:28

We have got only five or six minutes left.

0:51:280:51:30

I want to take one other question.

0:51:300:51:32

-We had the news...

-I wanted to talk about Boris.

0:51:320:51:35

You want to say something about Boris?

0:51:350:51:37

-Could I answer about Boris?

-OK, very quickly.

0:51:370:51:40

I just think that Boris is supposed

0:51:400:51:42

to give a boost to the Leave campaign,

0:51:420:51:43

but I think, mostly, he is giving a boost to the Boris campaign,

0:51:430:51:47

because I think most things that Boris does

0:51:470:51:49

are about Boris more than anything else!

0:51:490:51:50

The junior doctors announced

0:51:500:51:52

they are going to have three 48-hour strikes in March and April.

0:51:520:51:56

And the question comes from Jim Green, please.

0:51:560:51:59

The BMA has always enjoyed widespread public support.

0:51:590:52:04

Will this continue if the doctors carry out further strikes?

0:52:040:52:08

OK, we have talked about the issues often,

0:52:080:52:10

but the strike action is the thing that is at issue here.

0:52:100:52:14

Julian Fellowes?

0:52:140:52:16

Well, the thing I don't really understand about

0:52:160:52:20

these strikes is, obviously, when it was

0:52:200:52:23

discovered that you had a far greater chance of

0:52:230:52:27

dying if you went into hospital over the weekend...

0:52:270:52:29

DISSENTING SHOUTS

0:52:290:52:31

..clearly, someone had to do something about it.

0:52:310:52:34

I don't understand, if the junior doctors

0:52:340:52:36

actually thought the Secretary of State should not address it.

0:52:360:52:40

It's now gone from 6,000 extra deaths, we were told yesterday,

0:52:400:52:43

to 11,000 extra deaths.

0:52:430:52:44

That is not true!

0:52:440:52:47

So, that is what I don't understand.

0:52:470:52:50

But the thing I mostly don't understand,

0:52:500:52:53

is that 99% of people in this country want exactly

0:52:530:52:58

the same thing, a good, happy, clean, modern

0:52:580:53:01

Health Service which looks after the people

0:53:010:53:04

who work there and looks after the patients.

0:53:040:53:06

That is free at the point of use.

0:53:060:53:08

We all want it. Why is it not possible for all parties to

0:53:080:53:13

co-operate in solving the difficulties of the NHS,

0:53:130:53:16

and just for once, couldn't we be grown-up enough

0:53:160:53:19

to be able to collaborate instead of

0:53:190:53:22

turning everything into a political football?

0:53:220:53:24

All right. Giles Fraser, do you agree with that?

0:53:240:53:27

APPLAUSE

0:53:270:53:29

-Do you agree with him?

-I don't agree with him.

0:53:290:53:33

I wouldn't want my mum

0:53:330:53:36

to go into hospital when there was a strike on,

0:53:360:53:38

and I would be worried about it, and I don't think

0:53:380:53:41

that... I don't think that junior doctors want to strike,

0:53:410:53:44

I really don't think they want to strike. But...

0:53:440:53:46

APPLAUSE

0:53:460:53:49

But, listen, but, listen, here's the thing.

0:53:490:53:52

What happens if you are in a situation

0:53:520:53:54

where you, as a junior doctor, sincerely believe -

0:53:540:53:57

and a great many of them do -

0:53:570:53:59

that this new contract,

0:53:590:54:00

this new situation being imposed upon them,

0:54:000:54:03

will actually put people's lives at risk?

0:54:030:54:06

-What happens if you think that?

-APPLAUSE

0:54:060:54:08

What do you do if you think this is what...

0:54:080:54:10

And this is what they are saying, if you are so exhausted

0:54:100:54:13

that you actually can't deal with the patients properly,

0:54:130:54:18

they are right to say something, and if all they can do is strike,

0:54:180:54:21

I don't like it, but I understand it.

0:54:210:54:24

All right.

0:54:240:54:25

APPLAUSE

0:54:250:54:29

I expect you are a doctor. I am going to have to be brutal,

0:54:290:54:31

we've only three minutes of this programme left

0:54:310:54:33

because we talked a lot about Europe. Julia.

0:54:330:54:35

Look, it's very simple.

0:54:350:54:37

11,000 more people do die over the weekends in hospitals.

0:54:370:54:40

SHOUTING

0:54:400:54:41

The reason... Let me finish!

0:54:410:54:44

The reason they do die is because they arrive at

0:54:440:54:46

hospital sicker than the people who arrive Monday to Friday.

0:54:460:54:49

They are almost all emergency cases.

0:54:490:54:52

It is absolutely clear, the editor of the BMJ has said Jeremy Hunt

0:54:520:54:56

is publicly misrepresenting the study that he keeps quoting

0:54:560:54:59

about 11,000, and he is misusing the data to

0:54:590:55:02

mislead the public. The reality is, we are talking basic maths here.

0:55:020:55:05

It is not brain surgery or rocket science, it is basic maths.

0:55:050:55:08

Jeremy Hunt says the new deal for junior doctors...

0:55:080:55:10

It IS brain surgery!

0:55:100:55:11

..more pay for fewer hours for the same number of doctors

0:55:110:55:16

to cover more shifts. That is simply not mathematically possible.

0:55:160:55:20

Someone is lying.

0:55:200:55:21

You, sir?

0:55:210:55:23

The stats are wrong, and I agree with your point,

0:55:230:55:25

11,000 people more do not die at the weekend.

0:55:250:55:27

The stats cover Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday.

0:55:270:55:30

They do not die at the weekend.

0:55:300:55:31

If junior doctors' staffing at the weekend was the problem,

0:55:310:55:34

they would be dying at the weekend. They do not.

0:55:340:55:36

The highest death rate in hospitals is on a Wednesday.

0:55:360:55:38

-You have more doctors on a Wednesday than a Saturday and Sunday.

-Yep.

0:55:380:55:41

It is not a weekend effect.

0:55:410:55:43

It is misrepresented by Mr Hunt,

0:55:430:55:44

who is misrepresenting and lying, frankly,

0:55:440:55:46

because when you are told something is wrong and continually repeat it,

0:55:460:55:49

it becomes a lie. He is lying about what is happening in hospital.

0:55:490:55:53

-Liz Truss...

-We as doctors...

0:55:530:55:54

I'm the doctor on call for the next two strikes.

0:55:540:55:58

I'm the surgical registrar, the junior doctor who will be

0:55:580:56:01

looking after each and every one of you when you come in.

0:56:010:56:03

I will be making sure you are safe. I am the man below the consultant

0:56:030:56:06

who will operate on you if you are sick.

0:56:060:56:07

I will be there. No-one will be put at risk. I will make sure of it.

0:56:070:56:11

APPLAUSE

0:56:110:56:13

We will have to be very brief.

0:56:130:56:15

Junior doctors do an incredible job.

0:56:180:56:21

They are the backbone of our Health Service,

0:56:210:56:23

but in response to what Giles has said,

0:56:230:56:26

we are reducing the maximum number of hours doctors can work.

0:56:260:56:30

-In the current contract...

-SHOUTING

0:56:300:56:32

-Let me finish...

-..reducing the maximum long shift, you're not reducing the number of hours!

0:56:320:56:36

In the current contract, the maximum number of hours is 91 hours a week.

0:56:360:56:39

-Sorry, the question...

-We think that is unsafe...

-Liz.

0:56:390:56:41

-It's the same number of hours!

-..and it needs to be reduced.

0:56:410:56:44

-You have made your point, sir.

-I am so sorry.

-Thank you very much.

0:56:440:56:48

Wait a moment, Jim Green's point, and we have 60 seconds or so left,

0:56:480:56:52

was will further strikes alienate public support?

0:56:520:56:55

In your view?

0:56:550:56:56

I think the contract is now fair. And I think...

0:56:560:56:58

You are not answering the question.

0:56:580:57:00

..it would be wrong if doctors did go on strike.

0:57:000:57:02

-Diane Abbott?

-I believe,

0:57:020:57:05

despite the possible strike action,

0:57:050:57:08

that doctors will continue to have the support of the public

0:57:080:57:12

because people know junior doctors do not want to strike.

0:57:120:57:16

They also know...

0:57:160:57:17

APPLAUSE

0:57:170:57:19

There's been this quite dishonest misuse of

0:57:190:57:25

figures to suggest that doctors aren't already

0:57:250:57:28

working a seven-day week, and people are dying

0:57:280:57:30

because they won't.

0:57:300:57:32

Doctors will continue...

0:57:320:57:33

The public will have faith in its doctors

0:57:330:57:36

long after it's lost faith in this Tory Government.

0:57:360:57:38

-APPLAUSE

-Hear, hear.

0:57:380:57:42

You can - the woman in white there, smiling, smiling so winningly,

0:57:430:57:47

you can have ten seconds.

0:57:470:57:49

-Me?

-You, yes, but be very quick.

0:57:490:57:50

I just want to pop something into the general conversation,

0:57:500:57:53

because I'm a probate lawyer,

0:57:530:57:55

and I can tell you that the vast majority

0:57:550:57:57

of new probate cases come in on a Monday.

0:57:570:58:00

-This is for those who have died, sadly.

-Deaths at the weekend.

0:58:020:58:05

All right. I don't know whether that adds anything at all.

0:58:050:58:07

LAUGHTER

0:58:070:58:09

You got away with it. Our time's up.

0:58:090:58:11

We are going to be in Liverpool next week, and we have

0:58:110:58:14

John McDonnell, Labour Shadow Chancellor,

0:58:140:58:16

among those on the panel in Liverpool.

0:58:160:58:18

The week after that we will be in Dundee, so if you want to come to

0:58:180:58:21

Liverpool or Dundee, you will be extremely welcome

0:58:210:58:23

to come and take part in these lively discussions,

0:58:230:58:25

Go to our website and apply there,

0:58:250:58:28

or the telephone number, which is on the screen.

0:58:280:58:30

If you are listening on Five Live, Radio Five Live, as I know

0:58:330:58:36

many people do now, you can continue the debate

0:58:360:58:39

on Question Time Extra Time,

0:58:390:58:41

but here, my thanks to our very first-rate panel...

0:58:410:58:44

LAUGHTER ..and our very first-rate audience.

0:58:440:58:48

From Poole, until next Thursday, goodnight.

0:58:480:58:51

APPLAUSE

0:58:510:58:55

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Poole, Dorset. On the panel: Conservative environment secretary Elizabeth Truss MP, Labour's shadow international development secretary Diane Abbott MP, broadcaster Julia Hartley-Brewer, parish priest and Guardian columnist Giles Fraser and the creator of Downton Abbey Julian Fellowes.


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