EU Special: The Case for Leave Question Time

With just under a week to go until the referendum,

welcome to this special edition of Question Time.

For the next 45 minutes, Michael Gove,

one of the leaders of the campaign to leave the European Union,

is going to face questions from our audience here in Nottingham.

Now, tonight, our audience is divided evenly between those wanting

to leave and those wanting to remain,

with some people whose minds aren't made up.

As always on Question Time,

this programme belongs to this audience and they can ask what

they like and Michael Gove hasn't seen the questions in advance.

And if you're watching, you can

use facebook and Twitter to comment

on what you hear here

and you can use our hashtag, #bbcqt,

or you can text 83981,

push the red button to see what

other people are saying.

So without any further ado, to argue the case for leaving the EU,

please welcome the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove.

APPLAUSE

So, we'll take our first question, please.

Hi. If we do vote to leave the EU,

will you be supporting George Osborne's punishment budget?

This is the budget that George Osborne announced today,

including increases in taxation of 2p, the higher rate by three,

cuts in spending, alcohol and fuel going up.

Will you be supporting all that if the vote is Brexit?

No, because I think that what we've heard from the Remain

campaign throughout this whole referendum have been dire

warnings of the terrible consequences of the British

people just taking control of our own destiny.

And the truth is that, if we vote to leave,

we will be in an economically stronger position.

We will be able to take back some of the money that we currently

give to the European Union and we could invest it in our priorities.

More than that, we can start negotiating new trade deals with

other countries, like India, China, and Japan,

which can create hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country.

So leaving the European Union is actually a win-win

economically for this country.

The real risk is staying in the European Union.

We know that the EU has the lowest growth of any

continent in the world, apart from Antarctica,

and we also know that the misery inflicted by the single

currency means that, if we stay in the European Union,

we will be on the hook for paying more money in order to

support the poor people of Greece, Italy, Spain,

and Portugal, who've suffered as a result of the single currency.

But George Osborne wasn't talking out all that.

George Osborne was talking about what the

Institute for Fiscal Studies, a body that you respect

and have quoted yourself as being an authority.

They say there's going to be a hole of £30 billion a year

immediately after Brexit -

that's why he has to either cut spending or increase taxation.

David, you are wrong.

They didn't say there would be a cut like that immediately after Brexit.

There is no need for an emergency budget. The guy...

Well, why did they produce this thing?

No, they produced their report

and it wasn't about what would happen immediately after.

The guy who leads the In campaign, Stuart Rose,

was asked by the House of Commons Treasury Committee what would happen

if we left the European Union and he said the day after

there would be no difference, no cost economically.

The truth is that there are any number of business authorities

who are very clear that Britain can succeed outside the European Union.

In fact, Britain will be in a stronger economic position

outside the European Union.

People like Sir James Dyson or Anthony Bamford, the head of JCB,

they are the people who make and manufacture goods

in this country, who provide jobs.

They have confidence in the ingenuity, in the talent,

in the generosity of spirit of the British people.

I think it's a shame that the Remain camp are talking this country down.

APPLAUSE

So... Yes, you, sir.

How can you actually say that you believe we're going to be better

off when the majority of experts are telling you completely different?

-Well...

-APPLAUSE

There are some organisations that do take a different view, but these

are organisations that were wrong in the past about the single currency.

Many of these organisations said that we should join the euro

and that, if we didn't join the euro,

our economy would be devastated.

They were wrong then and they are wrong now.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies was not one of those,

they didn't support the euro, they didn't support the ERM,

and you cited them yourself

when you were Secretary of State for Education as a reliable body.

They're the ones on which this budget that was produced

today by George Osborne is based. Forget the others.

Well, David, the Institute for Fiscal Studies did produce a report

and, in that report, one of the things that they

also said is that, if we vote to leave,

then we have billions of pounds of money, which we currently

give to the European Union, which we can spend on our own priorities.

And critically, I think,

when we're thinking about the future of our economy,

the people we should really listen to are those who create jobs

and those who provide opportunity for the future, and it's clear to me

that manufacturers, entrepreneurs, industrialists,

they have confidence in the British people, why don't the Remain camp?

APPLAUSE

You said before that we could reinvest it into maybe public

services, but how can I trust you, as someone who co-authored a book,

which put forward an argument for an insurance-based health system,

and other prominent Brexiteers have done the same thing?

How can I trust you to even invest it?

Your government has completely been cutting the NHS

and other public services, so why now have you changed your mind?

APPLAUSE

I stand on my record as a government minister in education

who ensured that we spent more,

particularly on the very poorest in our schools,

and I support our National Health Service.

It's been good to me and to my family and I believe

that, if we vote to leave, we can give the National Health Service

£100 million additional every week.

I think that the institutions that we love in this country,

which are an expression of Britishness,

deserve to be supported and defended.

No other country has a health service like the National Health Service.

-But John Major said you wanted to privatise...

-Free at the point of need. Just one second, David.

Free at the point of need, irrespective of the ability to pay.

I cherish it because it is a British institution.

I want to invest in it, I want to support it and

if we vote to leave, we can give it the cash injection that it needs.

APPLAUSE

To be fair to the questioner, you've changed your mind

cos, ten years ago, you were writing, saying it either had to be an insurance policy or paid...

As John Major pointed out, Michael Gove wanted to privatise it.

The book is there. You co-authored the book.

-Now...that's what she is referring to.

-No, I...

-I trusted you. Why should I trust you?

Why should people believe you're in favour of it?

Because of my conviction.

You mentioned this book - it was written by a group of people.

I didn't write anything in it about the National Health Service

because my commitment to the National Health Service -

there when my children were born,

there when my wife needed it - is absolute.

The one thing that you can trust in this debate, though,

is the instincts of the British people.

If we vote to leave and we take back control,

the amount of additional money that we have as a result of that,

the hundreds of millions of pounds,

will be spent by us on our priorities.

I don't know a higher priority that the British public have

than the National Health Service.

So if we vote to leave, you can ensure that politicians

follow your instructions to spend on the NHS.

At the moment, the money that we hand over to the European Union

is spent by people who are not emotionally invested in this country.

They don't care about its future.

They're people whose names we don't know,

whom we never chose and whom we cannot kick out.

I think what we should do on June 23 is send a signal to them -

no more unaccountable rule.

Instead, let's take back control and restore our democracy.

OK.

APPLAUSE

Can we just stick with this Osborne budget for a moment?

Is that what you want to ask about? Yes.

On the subject, I think, if you say your government values

the NHS so much, where was your support for junior doctors?

APPLAUSE

I appreciate the difficult position that the Health Secretary

has been in because of the difficult funding constraints that operated.

But whether you're a junior doctor,

a trainee nurse, an experienced consultant, or a patient,

our National Health Service will be stronger

if we leave the European Union

and one of the reasons it will be stronger

is that we can invest additional cash in it.

There's another reason as well.

At the moment, all our public services,

the NHS and education, are under strain

as a result of unlimited free movement from the European Union.

If we vote to leave, we can take back control and we can

ensure that our NHS is under less strain and receives more money and

that would be a vote of confidence in a great British institution.

Let's have a question from Josephine Yussaf, please.

Everything in life has risks.

Being honest, what do you feel are the risks if Britain leaves the EU?

Well, you're absolutely right that everything in life has risks

and I think that there could be risks and dangers

ahead in the global economy. And there are risks and dangers,

we know, as a result of what Vladimir Putin wants to do in Russia

and also what Isis and other terrorists

want to do in the Middle East.

But I think that we would be better able to cope with those risks

if we voted to leave the European Union.

At the moment, the people who take decisions about our economy

and our security are people whom we never elected

and who don't have an emotional tie to this country.

They don't care with the same passion that you do

about what happens here. If we leave the European Union,

-yes, there'll be bumps in the road, inevitably.

-What will they be?

-But we will be...

-What will the bumps be?

-We will be in a better...

-Hang on.

-..position to deal with them.

-Wait a moment,

-her question was, were there risks or no risks?

-Well...

You can't get away with saying there'll be bumps in the road,

if you're urging this country to vote to leave.

-What bumps will they be?

-The bumps that we face will be there

irrespective of whether we leave the European Union or stay,

-but we will be...

-No, but she's talking about risks

-as a result of leaving.

-Well, quite...

-When you say there'll be

bumps in the road, you mean there'll be no downside for leaving,

-is that your position?

-My view is that,

whatever happens in the future,

we will be in a stronger position to deal with any crises that occur

as a result of leaving the European Union.

If someone says to you that in the future

everything is going to be perfect,

that it's going to be milk and honey, they're wrong.

But, whatever the world throws at us, whatever the risks

and challenges, I have confidence that the British people,

their talent, their generosity of spirit,

that will allow us to win through.

And the British people will be liberated to deal with

whatever risks there are in the future

if we leave the European Union and we take back control.

OK. You, sir.

APPLAUSE

But I think, Mr Gove, the overall problem which we have,

the principal uncertainties which will face Britain

going forward are economic.

-Yes.

-Ultimately, what are we going to do?

We're going to lose our main trading partner in the EU?

Are we going to actually then go into a model

which is going to be a Swiss model?

Is it going to be a Norwegian model?

Is it going to be a Canadian model?

All of these things in themselves actually will cost the UK more

than the £350 million which you're saying you're going to be saving.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

We are wanting to A, lose autonomy,

lose actually decision making,

and actually we will probably be worse off.

And in terms of essentially our position in a

negotiating table, are you suggesting that

a population of 1.3 billion people,

a market in China, or basically a US, GDP,

number one in the world, are actually going to be

looking at Britain as a primary trading partner?

I think, to be quite honest, you'd be off your rocker.

All right, OK, you're off your rocker.

APPLAUSE

"You're off your rocker" were the last words -

in case if you missed them.

-You say the nicest things, sir(!)

-Oh, of course.

The truth is that Britain is the world's fifth largest economy

and you mentioned trade. I'll just mention two things about trade.

The first thing is that Germany and France sell more cars to us

and more agricultural produce to us than we sell to them.

A fifth of cars manufactured in Germany are sold here.

The Germans wouldn't want to put up trade barriers because that would

mean that German car workers would be out of a job,

so I don't believe for a moment that the German Chancellor

is going to punish her own car workers in order to prove a point.

But there's a second thing as well.

You talk about China - a huge country, yes.

It doesn't have a trade deal with the European Union

but it has a trade deal with Switzerland.

It even has a trade deal with tiny Iceland,

which is just a population of a few hundred thousand.

If it can have a trade deal with a country

which has a population smaller than Glasgow's,

it can have a trade deal with us.

And as long as we stay in the European Union,

the people negotiating on our behalf aren't people

who put Britain first -

they're people who put the ideology of the EU ahead of everything else.

I want our trade and our economic policy

to be decided by people who are patriotic and who put Britain first.

And by voting Leave, we can ensure a patriotic economic case is made.

All right, I'll come to you and I'll come to you.

APPLAUSE

As you can see, Mr Gove,

a lot of people have their hands up for questions,

so if you can keep your answers

so we can bring as many people in as possible that would be good.

-Thanks, David. Yes?

-Hi. You said about bumps in the road,

but you didn't actually say any and I will tell you one.

As a physicist, I am absolutely terrified of what will happen

to the British science if we are to leave

because in a current state, where universities are cutting back

on most science funding, the EU is a life saver for physicists

and other scientists out there.

What am I going to do

and what's everyone else going to do when we have no more funding?

We, as Britain, are some...

We have some of greatest scientists in the world,

but that's just going to go to pot because we'll have nothing.

-All right.

-Well...

APPLAUSE

First thing I would say is

that some of the most distinguished physicists I know,

like Professor David Deutsch, think that we would be better off

outside the European Union.

The second thing that I would say is that all the money

that currently goes to universities from the European Union

is our money in the first place.

It's the European Union spending our money on universities.

If we leave, all that money will be safeguarded

and, more than that,

we will have control of an additional £10 billion

which we can spend on our priorities.

Now, there have been all sorts of things that have been said...

-What...?

-..during the course of this debate about things

that could go wrong if we vote to leave.

But I don't believe in the scare stories

put about by people like Donald Tusk,

the President of the European Council,

who says if we vote to leave,

-Western civilisation will come to an end.

-Can we come back...?

-If we vote to leave...

-Can we come back to the lady's point?

-..we'll be able to invest more in our public services.

-Go on, briefly.

But sciences already get more from the EU than we put in.

Where's that extra £3 billion? And, by the way, billion?

Is that a...? Which billion are you talking about when you talk

about billions? Are you talking about a million million

-or a thousand million?

-All right, well...

Just as a...

Neither here nor there! But the point is that we get more out...

We're moving to a mathematic seminar.

We get more out than we get in, she's saying.

I'm afraid, on that particular point, that's not true.

Overall, we hand over to the European Union,

every year, £20 billion.

We get some of that money back through a rebate, but that rebate...

But for science only, we get more than we put in.

I'm afraid that's not true because...

The IOP has said that. The Royal Society has said that.

-Well...

-Do I trust them or do I trust you?

-Trust the figures.

APPLAUSE

All right. All right. To you. To you...

I would say, "Trust the figures."

£20 billion we handover, £10 billion we get back -

that means we're £10 billion down on the deal.

I think we should vote Leave so that we can take back control of that.

A point from you and then I want to go on to another question. Yes?

APPLAUSE

I can't understand why all the risk associated

with this referendum is put onto the Leave campaign.

There's several risks associated with staying as well.

We hardly ever get, or we never have had, a referendum

on substantial treaty change at a European level.

Are we going get sucked into the Schengen no passport area?

Are we going get punished because we don't join the euro in the future?

Will Turkey join the EU?

There's so many risks associated with remaining,

but that never gets brought up.

APPLAUSE

I think he's made your case for you on those points.

-Well, he's put... You've put it brilliantly, yes.

-OK.

You can change places!

Greta Holmer. Greta Holmer, please.

I run a small business and over 50% of my trade is with the EU.

How can you possibly guarantee that my business

and other small businesses won't suffer as a result of pulling out?

Well, all businesses that trade with the European Union benefit

from the absence of tariffs, but there won't be a case

for putting new tariffs on if we vote to leave.

As we were discussing earlier, Germany sells more to us,

the European Union sells more to us than we sell to them,

so it's in their interests.

We don't have to appeal to their better natures,

it's in their interests to sell to us, but talking about...

-Greta, what is it...? Sorry.

-I sell to them...

-Yeah.

-I sell to them, they don't sell to me.

-No.

No, I'm sorry... I also trade with other countries

-that are non-EU based...

-What do you sell, exactly?

..and they are much, much more difficult to trade with.

-I'm a translator.

-Oh, right.

-I have a translation business.

-Yeah.

And I work with clients in the US,

in China, in India and across the EU

and in Switzerland as well, and it's much more difficult

from a transactional point of view to work with non-EU countries.

If we become a non-EU country, it will become more difficult

to trade with the EU countries,

which are the lifeblood of my business.

APPLAUSE

I'd say two things. The first thing is,

it will only be more difficult if the European Union countries

take leave of their senses and decide to make it more difficult

to sell their goods to us.

It works in both of our interests,

in the European Union's and in Britain's interests,

to keep those tariff barriers down.

And if we create new trade deals with other countries,

like China, India and Japan,

it will be easier to trade with them.

And even the European Commission says that, if we have

those trade deals, we will be able to create more jobs.

-But on the case of small businesses...

-I thought your view

was that the European Union does take leave of its senses.

You were attacking Donald Tusk.

-If they take...

-At the moment...

-Do they take leave of their senses?

At the moment, they are trying to scare us...

-Or are they rational...?

-..into staying and the reason

they're trying to scare us into staying is because

we pay so many of the bills.

And once we vote to leave, then that decision will be

respected by other countries,

democracy will have spoken, and those other countries

will look to their own interests

-and recognise that it's a good thing to trade with us.

-OK.

The woman sitting there and then I'll come to you.

APPLAUSE

You go first.

I study English literature, so, as a writer of words,

I understand the tool of words and how you can manipulate people.

At the moment, all I've heard from you is manipulation and bravado.

Do you actually plan on doing anything?

Are you going to propose to us what you're actually going to do?

Because it's easy to talk but not as easy to walk.

APPLAUSE

I read English literature, too, when I was a student and...

-LAUGHTER

-..and enjoyed it.

-And good luck with your degree.

-Thank you.

We've outlined, today, a plan, actually,

for what will happen if we vote to leave.

That plan includes being able to invest more money in our NHS

to help the very poorest in society, by taking VAT off fuel,

and by negotiating new trade deals of the kind

that I've just discussed.

But one of the reasons why I was able to go to university

is because of the sacrifices that my family made when I was younger.

We were just discussing small businesses there.

One of the things that I know about the European Union

is that the European Union can destroy jobs.

My dad ran a fish business in Aberdeen.

The Common Fisheries Policy, unfortunately,

led to the devastation of fishing in Scotland.

My dad had to close his business and, as a result,

something that had been built up by my grandfather

and maintained by my dad disappeared.

So my dad suffered and it's also the case that there are

young people, people like you, aged 18 to 25,

who are suffering in Greece and Portugal and Spain at the moment

because of the EU.

The EU is a job-destroying machine.

And to use a phrase from English literature, that is a tragedy.

APPLAUSE

Two points, one about your dad,

who was quoted today in the newspapers as saying,

"It wasn't like that, it wasn't hardship or anything like that,

"it wasn't the EU that made me close my business."

Well...

APPLAUSE

My dad was rung up by a reporter from the Guardian

who tried to put words into his mouth.

But my dad has been clear, he was clear to the BBC on Sunday night,

he was clear to me when I was a boy,

that the business that he invested so much care and time in

had to close as a result of the Common Fisheries Policy.

I remember when my dad ran his business,

two of his employees were lads who were in a care home,

they didn't have parents.

My dad took them in, gave them a job

and allowed them to work in his business

and to sleep there in a spare room that he made for them.

That business closed,

those boys lost their home as a result of what happened.

I know what my dad went through when I was a schoolboy

and I don't think that the Guardian or anyone else

should belittle his suffering

or try to get a 79-year-old man to serve their agenda

-instead of agreeing and being proud of what his son does.

-OK.

APPLAUSE

Just to pick you up on the job-destroying machine

that you call the EU - did it the other day.

At the Tory Party Conference,

you were boasting that we'd created two million jobs,

more than any other government in history.

That doesn't sound like a job-destroying machine.

Or are we out of the EU in terms of all that?

Many of the jobs that we created were actually filled by people

who came from Europe, from countries which were

suffering as a result of the single currency and the euro.

I think we would create even more jobs if we left the European Union

and that's not just my view, that it is the view

of independent experts and authorities who have looked

at the capacity of new trade deals to generate more jobs for us.

If we vote to leave, if we take back control of our economic policy,

then we can at last begin to allow this country

to become great again, to take off economically

and to provide young people with the opportunities that they deserve.

All right. The woman up there.

-APPLAUSE

-You're on about trade deals

and these things that you seem to have in your head.

Where's your actual proof of a trade deal

with the European Union once we're out?

Where's your proof that tariffs are going be lower?

I think you're living in a fantasy, to be honest.

APPLAUSE

I'm not relying on fantasising about the future,

I'm relying about the facts on the ground at the moment.

Germany and France sell lots to us

and they sell far more to us than we sell to the European Union...

-But have you got...?

-..so it's in their interests to cut a deal.

The thing about business is that people aren't sentimental -

I understand that. They look to self-interest

and it's in the self-interest of those countries to cut that deal.

-Go on.

-But have you got any, like, proof? Have you...?

Are you somehow, behind the scenes, writing a contract

with the European Union that that deal will continue?

That trade deal will continue? I think it's just in your head

and I think it's just in the heads of the people who want to leave.

Well, one of the things that none of us can do

is predict the future with certainty.

But, as we heard from the young man in the front row here,

if we vote to remain, what we will be doing is actually signing up

for a riskier future. We'll be signing up for picking up

some of the bills of the European Union as it expands

and as it adds five new countries -

Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia, Serbia and Turkey

are all on course to join the European Union.

If we vote to remain, then we will be paying the bills

to allow them to come in.

In fact, we're paying, at the moment, nearly £2 billion

in order to get these countries into the EU. That is a fact.

-And if we vote to leave...

-You're making the EU stronger.

..we won't be paying that money any more and it will be the case

that we won't be in a borderless zone with Turkey.

Mr Gove, let's come over here cos I've had my back to everybody here,

so I've not seen who's had their hands up.

Maybe you in the blue there, sir.

Why has this government and previous governments

let Brussels interfere so much that we're now at the point

of voting to stay in or out of Europe?

-Well...

-You mean that the governments have failed?

-APPLAUSE

-No, they've interfered so much

-with our law-making and our border controls...

-OK.

..that we've now come to one of our biggest decisions

that we're ever going to make.

I think you're right and I hoped that Europe might change.

I hoped that the people who run the European Union,

these bureaucrats,

would recognise that the single currency had been a disaster,

that the migration crisis on their borders in the Mediterranean

was a tragedy and that they would change.

And our Prime Minister tried to get them to change,

-but unfortunately they would not.

-But when David Cameron...

And if the European Union isn't going to change

and it works against us, we've got to vote to leave.

Does everybody agree with him or take issue with what he's saying?

-When David Cameron went to...

-Hang on a second.

-..to get deals.

-Yeah.

They bent over backwards to keep Greece in the euro,

which surely David Cameron could've said, you know,

"We want back our border controls back or we're coming out"?

-Do you agree with that, behind?

-To a point, I agree.

-I think I want to put a question to Mr Gove.

-Yeah.

We talk about all of the wonderful things that are going to happen

if we leave, and I agree that there are plenty of opportunities

if we do leave, but do you have confidence that if we do get

a Leave vote, that a Prime Minister that has campaigned to Remain

-will actually go on and deliver them?

-I do.

APPLAUSE

I'm glad that you think there are many opportunities open to us

if we vote to leave. In fact, the case for leaving is

an optimistic case about the potential of the British people

to achieve even more.

But, of course, the reason we're having a referendum

is to give an instruction to the Prime Minister.

The general election allowed us to choose a government

and a Prime Minister.

One of the things that David Cameron promised

was a referendum and he has promised that he will abide

by the results of the referendum.

So, whatever you choose to vote on the June the 23rd,

that will be delivered.

And I hope that people, on the June the 23rd, will vote to leave

and vote to show confidence in this country

and its potential to achieve amazing things in the future.

And what is the fate of the Chancellor of the Exchequer,

who says that, if we vote to leave,

he's going to have to impose income tax increases,

cuts in spending and has already got 65 Tory MPs

saying they won't go for it

and the entire Labour Party saying they won't vote for it?

Will he have to go? Is the price of Brexit that Osborne goes

and is that maybe one of the things that you want to see happen?

One of the things that we've seen from the Leave campaign,

as we've got closer and closer to the vote,

is ramping up the fear, turning it up to 11.

And one of the things I say is,

instead of listening to the scare stories,

and instead of thinking about individuals and personalities,

think about the potential for this country.

Ultimately, this debate isn't about individual politicians

and their fate, it's about this country and its destiny.

Do you believe that this country is better governed by people

whom you elect and whom you can kick out?

-All right.

-Or do you think this country is better governed

by five EU presidents, none of whom we can name,

none of whom were directly elected, none of whom we can throw out?

I think we should have a vote of confidence in our democracy

and in our people and that's why I think, on June the 23rd,

we should vote Leave and take back control.

APPLAUSE

Well, you accused the Remain camp of scaremongering.

Let's have a question from Daniel Abrams, please.

Is Vote Leave scaremongering saying that Turkey

and its 76 million population will join the EU?

APPLAUSE

Absolutely not.

One of the things that struck me during the course

of this debate is the fact that the European Union

is accelerating talks to get Turkey into the EU.

There's a story in the Financial Times this morning,

the business bible,

which said that British diplomats had agreed to accelerate talks to

get Turkey into the European Union

and those talks would take place on 24th of June,

the day after our referendum, if we vote to stay in.

More than that, we're spending millions of pounds preparing Turkey

and four other countries to enter the European Union.

It's the policy of the European Union,

it's the policy of our Government.

Our Government has said that we want to pave the road from Ankara,

the Turkish capital, to Brussels.

It is Government policy and the only way we can stop it,

the only way that any of us will have a vote on whether or not

we're in the same union as Turkey, is if we vote to leave on June 23rd.

The Prime Minister says we have a veto on that.

Of course, the Prime Minister does say we have a veto...

So it'll only happen if the British Prime Minister wants it,

so we have power over that decision.

But it is the official policy of the Government, articulated

by the Prime Minister and others, to allow Turkey to enter.

He says by the year 3000, I think the most recent date.

The point is we have the veto.

Do we not have the veto?

The point is that the Government has no intention of using that veto,

because Government Ministers have said that they are

the strongest advocates of Turkish membership of the European Union

and we are spending money on securing it.

When do you think it'll happen?

I think it will inevitably happen in our lifetimes,

unless we vote Leave on June 23rd.

OK. Let me take you, sir.

It just seems, no matter which way you look at it,

you need to look at the positives of each side.

You're giving us the positives of what we can do, but what

I'm not hearing from the Remain campaign is any positives at all.

They haven't told us anything.

My question to you is, if we do leave,

how can you get our immigration down to the tens of thousands when we

already have hundreds of thousands of immigrants in our country

at the minute, and you have already stated you wouldn't deport any of

them, fearing that other countries would deport people living there.

-Yes.

-What's your opinion on that?

The only way that we can control the number of people who come into this

country is by voting to leave and taking back control of our borders.

APPLAUSE

Now, don't get me wrong. I favour controlled migration.

I think it is a good thing

when people come here who have additional skills that we need.

I also think it's a really good thing, if there are people who are

fleeing persecution and suffering, if we can give them a safe haven.

But the only way that you can maintain support for migration

and its benefits is if people feel that this country controls

the numbers and controls who comes here.

At the moment, under European Union law,

there are criminals here that we can't deport.

There are terrorists, people with terrorist pasts,

that we can't prevent coming in. That is a real risk to our security.

And, of course, if we vote to leave,

we can have an Australian-style points system,

which means that you can decide

the numbers who come here and the basis on which they come.

And that means immigration can work in everyone's benefits

because we trust the British people,

their generosity and their sense of principle to decide.

APPLAUSE

How long will it take to get to the target of under 100,000 immigrants,

when I think the figure is 170,000 at the moment are students

and people coming for family reasons because they're married

and bringing their wives or husbands here, how long will it take?

I think we can secure our exit from the European Union by 2020

and then we can move to bring down the numbers in the next Parliament.

And I think that critically, critically,

it should be for the British people to decide

what they think the appropriate numbers are. The virtue of...

They did decide, they voted for your Government for the 100,000,

and nothing happened.

They did. And one of the reasons why we cannot fulfil that promise

is that, inside the European Union, we can't control the numbers who

come here from any EU nation...

Hang on, what about the ones who came from outside the EU?

-..unlimited free movement.

-What about...?

Of the hundreds of millions of people in the European Union,

they all have a right to come here.

What about the ones who came from outside, which you could control,

-and you didn't?

-Yes.

-So that suggests the British people speak,

if that was what their voice said, and the Government didn't deliver.

188,000 came from outside the EU, which they could control.

APPLAUSE

It all goes back to the issue of rhetoric, trust, confidence,

-delivery, doesn't it?

-Yes, absolutely.

And there is more that we can do to reduce the number of people

coming from outside the European Union.

But, broadly, half of the people who came here last year, net migration,

came from the European Union, half came from outside.

The European Union is about 8% of the world's population,

so far more proportionately come from the European Union.

The thing about people who come from the outside

is that we can, if we wish to,

change our visa regime and have fewer people coming here.

It is within our power, within our control.

If we remain in the European Union, we cannot place any limits

or any control on the number of people who come here

from European Union countries.

So, if we want to have a controlled migration policy,

we have to vote Leave and take back control.

Does anybody want to come back on that particular issue?

-You do, yes.

-I'm an immigrant myself

and the more you speak, the more offended I feel.

I've been working in England for 14 years now,

paying my taxes day in, day out,

unlike others that I'm not going to mention, obviously.

I helped to build this economy in this country

and that's how you treat us. I feel so offended...

APPLAUSE

INAUDIBLE

All right...

It's a pity I can't vote

because obviously you know what I was going to vote.

We're better all together.

We are not the enemy, Mr Gove, we are not the enemy.

-We are your friend...

-APPLAUSE

Let me tell you something, you could change the numbers,

not by going out but staying in and helping. Sorry.

Let Mr Gove reply.

I entirely understand your point of view and you make your case

with great passion and force. As I mentioned to the gentleman

just two rows along from you, I'm in favour of migration -

I simply want to control the numbers.

I can't believe that, I'm sorry.

In Australia, in Canada,

they control the numbers of people who come.

She doesn't believe that you're in favour of it.

The message you're sending

is not the same message you are actually giving.

I don't receive the message.

Unfortunately for you, it comes to me like we are not welcome.

You use us to your convenience

and, when we are no use any more, you kick us out.

I'm sorry...

You're trying to cover all...

Can I ask which country you come from and the job that you do?

I'm just curious to know.

I'm Spanish, from Spain.

I have a brother-in-law who lives in Spain.

Do you?

I value the fact that there are people who have come here, like you,

who've contributed so much to our national life.

And in fact, just a year ago, on your programme, David,

I had the opportunity to defend those who work in the NHS

and who work in other public services who have come here from other countries.

One thing is undeniable, if we are going to continue to have

support for migration, we need to be able to control the numbers.

One of the reasons why Australia and Canada have support

for migration is because they control the numbers.

And the critical thing is to maintain support

for our multiracial, multi-ethnic success story,

we need to take back control.

Of course, it's not just the lady here.

Michael Heseltine, former Deputy Prime Minister, wrote a letter

to you saying the Brexit case,

"Relies on fanning fears about immigration.

"I'm amazed that someone like you now marches to the drum

"of Farage, Trump and Le Pen."

APPLAUSE

What do you say to that?

I don't mind being attacked personally,

but the question that all of us have to answer is, Michael Heseltine,

by saying that, appears to be saying that anyone,

anyone who thinks that we should control the numbers coming here,

whatever that figure,

is automatically an ally of those three people.

I think it is wrong to say to the British people

that if they simply want to control the numbers of people who come here,

that they are in the company of those three.

-APPLAUSE

-There is nothing wrong...

Nothing wrong in saying that we value migration,

-but we want to take back control.

-All right.

Most of the migrants who come here do the jobs that indigenous

British people don't and won't do.

There are factories, there are warehouses,

there are processing plants,

not just in Nottingham but all over the country,

that 100% or 98% of the workforce are EU migrants

because British people won't do them.

If we leave, people will find that there aren't the care staff

in the residential homes, there aren't the fruit and vegetables

in the shops, because we don't have the migrant workers who pick them.

How many...? How many EU migrants do you know who work here?

You think it's unrealistic, in other words.

The country will collapse. You talk about controlled migration...

APPLAUSE

-These are largely people...

-Sorry, you made the point.

They work in horrible jobs that British people don't want to do.

We don't have very much time, I'm afraid. You've made your point.

Thank you. I value everyone who is hard working in this country.

We are not going to,

as the gentleman in the second row pointed out,

I'm not going deport or kick anyone out who is hard working,

but there's a consequence for working people in this country

as a result of migration.

The Bank of England published a report that pointed out

that it is working people who have their wages held down

as a result of migration.

It is people who are unskilled or semi-skilled,

in the terms of the Bank of England's experts,

working people, in my view,

who have their wages cut by 2% for every 10% increase in migration.

I don't think it's right to set community against community

and to be so dismissive of what you call the indigenous people

of this country. I believe in the people of this country.

I want them to have higher wages, I want them to have jobs,

and I don't want them, to be honest, talked down to in the way...

You've said that a couple of times...

You've made the point. We've only got a couple of minutes.

Edward Neil, quickly, if you would.

Does Vote Leave regret using the £350 million a week figure on its battlebus?

The money you claim that we give to the EU,

which has been roundly criticised, not by the advertising agencies,

they're not allowed to say anything about political campaigns,

but it's been described as misleading, to put it generously.

Some have, but I stand by that figure.

That is the amount that the European Union controls.

Ultimately, this debate is about control.

Who do you think should spend our money better?

People that you elect and whom you can kick out,

or people you've never heard of and over whom you have no control?

That £350 million, yes, some of it comes back here.

Some of it comes back through the rebate,

but you can't count on the rebate.

It's been cut in the past and, if we vote to remain,

it'll be cut in the future.

Some of it comes back,

we heard from the lady in the third row,

to spend money on science and on farming.

And, of course, it's a good thing that we invest in those areas

and we are going to carry on investing in those areas.

But at least half of that money goes into the European Union

and we never see it again.

I think, if we vote Leave and we take back control,

we should spend that money on our priorities.

APPLAUSE

The woman at the back.

So much of what you say sounds incredibly plausible,

but I can't help sitting here thinking

that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing,

that this decision to leave...

APPLAUSE

..is really... It has so many consequences

we're not talking about, the geopolitical issues,

isolating the UK, the knock-on effect to Europe,

what's going to happen with Greece,

what will happen to the other countries.

This decision goes against the heart of what us British,

I think, believe in, in collaboration and joining together.

APPLAUSE

Mr Gove, 30 seconds, because we really have to stop.

If we vote to leave, we'll be affirming our faith in democracy.

We'll also be sending a message to the European Union,

that the people who've been running it for the past ten years

have been running the countries of Europe into the ground.

The way that we will help Greece is by saying to the people

responsible for the single currency, "You are wrong, change direction."

The way that we'll help international co-operation

is by saying that we believe Britain is stronger, freer and fairer,

and can be a progressive beacon for the whole world.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE

Thank you very much.

Just to say that ends this, obviously, ends this edition

of Question Time. David Cameron, Prime Minister, is going to be

facing questions from an audience in Milton Keynes on Sunday,

same time, 6:45, BBC One. We're back with Question Time tomorrow in York.

Among people on the panel, we've got Bob Geldof,

who's come back from his confrontation with Nigel Farage.

That's tomorrow evening at 10:45.

It just leaves me to thank you, Mr Gove, for coming here

and to thank our audience. From the Albert Hall,

here in Nottingham, goodnight.

APPLAUSE