09/06/2016 Question Time


09/06/2016

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Tonight, we're in Folkestone, and this is Question Time.

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And welcome to you,

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whether you're with us by television or radio, or in our audience here,

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and, of course, to our panel.

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Tonight, the Leader of the House of Commons,

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one of four Cabinet ministers campaigning to leave the EU,

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Chris Grayling.

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Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, supporting Remain, Hilary Benn.

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The leader of Ukip, Nigel Farage.

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The Daily Telegraph columnist and a Brexiter, Allison Pearson,

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and the comedian campaigning to remain in the EU, Eddie Izzard.

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And remember, of course, you've got Facebook, Twitter

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or texting on 83981,

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if you want to comment on what's said here this evening.

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Matt Dickingson has our first question, please. Matt.

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Yesterday, William Hague said that

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voters should not make their decision in the referendum

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on the basis of controlling immigration.

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-Do you agree?

-William Hague made this statement yesterday.

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-Nigel Farage, was he right?

-Extraordinary, isn't it?

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This was the Hague who, of course, was the great Euro-sceptic leader

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of the Conservative Party who fought against the euro,

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who railed against Europe and integration,

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and appears to have really rather sold out.

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Look, whichever way you cut this,

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immigration is the number one issue in British politics.

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It has been for some years. The opinion polls are astonishing.

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77% of the British public want cuts

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to the numbers coming into Britain and over half the voters

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want a reduction to near zero.

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So people are very upset, they're very unhappy.

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They're seeing the impact on local schools,

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they're seeing the impact on GP services,

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they're seeing the impact on housing,

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or the inability of young people to get on the housing ladder.

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So that's why it's the number one issue.

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And I think that the reason in this referendum

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why we have to talk about this is all the while, all the while,

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that, which is a British passport, or it should be,

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but the first two words on it are European Union,

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that is available to 508 million people.

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And any of those people, if they wish, can come to this country.

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We have no control.

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The only way we get control is to vote to leave the European Union.

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And I think William Hague shows he's just completely lost touch

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-with where the British public are on this issue.

-OK.

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In my mind, this is the issue that will decide the referendum.

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And that... APPLAUSE

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And that's why you said it didn't matter

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if we weren't slightly richer by leaving,

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-as long as we cut immigration?

-Well, what I said was this,

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there are reports that say

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that we're better off with mass immigration.

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There are some reports that say we're slightly worse off,

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economically, with mass immigration.

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But, to me, there's an issue called the quality of life,

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and I think that matters more than money.

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It's about thinking our kids and grandkids can have what we've had

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in terms of access to local health care,

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in terms of our kids getting into local primary schools,

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in terms of our overall quality-of-life.

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And that, David, I think, matters more

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-than GDP rising by 1% per annum.

-OK, well, no doubt we'll...

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APPLAUSE

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Eddie Izzard.

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Well, between 2001 and 2011,

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EU migrants put in 20 billion into the EU economy.

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They put in more than they take out.

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I know people are concerned about immigration,

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but we've got to look at the facts. These facts are in front of us.

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I mean, Sarah Wollaston, she exited the Brexit campaign today

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because she said that the figures that are coming out

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from the Brexit side are coming out false.

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And she said, and she's a GP, she said,

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like the NHS, a lot of information was stoked up about the NHS

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and she said, "It's not true. It isn't true."

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So she has actually left the campaign

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and she's joined the Remain side. There are sceptics,

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Euro-sceptics that are joining the Remain side even though

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they're still sceptical because they see the economic problems

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of pulling out. If we pull out, we are going to go into recession.

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Brexit is almost an anagram of recession.

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If you put two S's into the word Brexit, it's Brexession.

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-They almost designed it that way.

-LAUGHTER

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-And...

-What's that got to do with immigration, Eddie?

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Wasn't that the question, immigration?

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Well, the point is if we pull out then we become Norway,

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Norway still has to have the free movement of people in.

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So we become Norway or are we going to become Albania?

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If we do, the Prime Minister of Albania wants to join the EU.

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Or we become Canada. The point is, you are from an immigrant family

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and you're married to an immigrant. Why are you so against immigration

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-when it worked for your family?

-Because we have to control it.

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-APPLAUSE

-Hang on. You grew up...

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You're from... You're French Protestants from one side,

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you're German from the other side.

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-You should be the champion...

-Well, I am.

-You should be the champion

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-of people who are immigrants coming in.

-I am, but why...?

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-They got it to your situation.

-Why do you want to stop people

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from the Commonwealth coming in because we have an open door to...?

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Why do you want to stop people coming in to a country...?

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SMATTERED APPLAUSE

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Because I want to have an Australian-style points system...

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Your ancestors are revolving in their graves.

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..where we get the right people coming to Britain

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-in the right numbers.

-Nigel,

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you told your followers to bully people to vote for you.

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-This is not the right attitude.

-Eddie, Eddie,

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if we go on with current levels of immigration...

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You've got to answer your own personal situation here!

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-..our population will be...

-You are from an immigrant family.

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-..will be 80 million by 2040.

-All right, all right.

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-OK.

-How are we going to...?

-All right, I get it.

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-APPLAUSE

-How are we going to cope?

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There are four... There are three, three other people at the table,

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-I'm going to go to one of them.

-How do we cope...

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-Hilary Benn, your turn.

-..with a population of 80 million

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-in 25 years' time?

-Hilary Benn, your turn.

-That's the question.

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I'm the son of an immigrant.

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Now, Nigel, you say that you want

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an Australian-style points system.

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-Yes.

-What has it done in Australia? It's increased immigration.

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Now, let's tell each other the truth.

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It's a very important issue and you're right that people

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have concerns and there are pressures

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in particular communities.

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But the truth is, there will continue to be immigration

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whether we remain in the European Union

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or leave the European Union.

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But why can't you make your decision on the basis

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of controlling immigration, the question that I was asking?

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To come to that directly, I don't think it's wise

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to make your decision just on that basis for this reason.

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The price we pay for leaving will be to damage our economy.

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You know, it's very rare to get so many economists to reach agreement,

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nine out of ten. To get all of the surveys of business opinion,

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the IMF, the OECD, the World Bank,

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the governor of the Bank of England.

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Now, if you think they're all wrong,

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you have to be pretty confident that they're all wrong.

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How does damaging our economy,

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making life more difficult for people, putting up prices

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if the pound falls, how is that going to help deal with

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the problem of immigration? It isn't.

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And I make one other point.

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One in five of our care workers in this country

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come from outside the United Kingdom.

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Outside the United Kingdom.

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We have a demographic time bomb. More of us are getting older,

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we're going to need care, so that is why we will continue to need

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immigration, and what most people would say is

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as long as people come, they work, they pay their taxes -

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and Eddie is absolutely right, they contribute more into our economy

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than they take out - you know what that money goes on?

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-Helping to pay for our schools and our NHS.

-OK...

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APPLAUSE

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Yes, in the third row there.

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I don't think anyone's putting into question that immigrants have had

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a fantastic, you know, have had a great impact on the economy.

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But there has to be a limit at some point.

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If you're going to leave that to chance and to the decisions of

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the European Commission, essentially,

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and the decisions to the discretion of the people

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from those countries, you could have an unsustainable model,

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essentially. The only way to gain control of our borders again

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is to leave the European Union.

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Do you think that's the most...? APPLAUSE

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You see, William Hague was saying that isn't the issue to decide on.

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-It is...

-You think it is, do you?

-I wouldn't say it's the main issue.

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The main issue is our democracy, but it is an issue nevertheless

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and I think it's wrong to undermine people's concerns about it

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because communities have been affected by it.

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-OK. EDDIE:

-If communities are worried...

-Sorry.

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The woman there. Yes.

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My whole problem is with the Out campaign as a whole.

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As a young person, I'm just seeing, like, this scaremongering

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about immigrants and why I should be voting Leave because of that.

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Are there any other reasons why,

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or is it all just solely on this problem of immigration,

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which personally I haven't experienced?

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Chris Grayling, you answer. APPLAUSE

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No, it's not entirely about immigration,

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it's about the future of our democracy, it's about our

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trading relationships around the world, about being part

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of a continent and a union that is being left behind economically.

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It's an ever smaller part of the world economy.

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There are opportunities out there we're not taking part in,

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we're not taking advantage of.

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But it is going to be a key part of the decision-making.

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And why it matters to you is this.

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There are many, many people who come to the United Kingdom,

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who play a big role in our country.

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But if we carry on bringing to this country every year

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the equivalent of a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne...

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Now, for all of us who live in the south-east, I live there too,

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it is going to change the nature of the communities

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in which we live. It's going to become more built-up,

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it's going to become more congested,

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there are going to be more pressures on public services.

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If that's going to happen and if we're going to decide

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that's the right thing for our economy,

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I think at the very least you should have a say.

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And right now, we, as your elected politicians,

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have no ability to set limits on the number of people

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who come and live and work here.

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And the reason it makes a difference to you,

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you're going to want somewhere to live,

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in the future you're going to want to move up the housing ladder.

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The more people there are here, the more challenging it is for us

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to provide housing for the people who are here already,

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-to provide opportunities for them.

-Except that they put 20 billion

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into the UK economy.

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But, Chris Grayling, there's an interesting point here.

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Your party said they would reduce immigration

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to tens of thousands - maximum, therefore, 100,000.

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And then you say you can't control EU immigration.

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184,000 people are coming from outside the EU.

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Even on the bit you CAN control,

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you've done nothing to bring the numbers down.

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-Why is that?

-We need to do more...

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No, but, why haven't you done anything? The people are asking...

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You are saying, leave the EU,

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that will solve that bit of the immigration but

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what about the 184,000

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that you have had years to put right and you haven't?

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-There's a job of work to do...

-Ah, so you have failed?

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We have clearly got more to do.

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So why should anyone believe that you are going to

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succeed by leaving the EU if you can't get the bit

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you can control right?

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APPLAUSE

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We've just passed an immigration act that will tighten up

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the system for people from outside the European Union.

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We can't do that for people inside the European Union,

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we cannot even say that people who come and live

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and work in the United Kingdom should have a job

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before they come here. That is illegal under European law.

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Surely we should have a say, surely we should be able to set some

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limits - isn't that what being a democracy is all about?

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-Can we become Norway?

-I'll come to you in a moment.

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The man there - one, two, three, fourth row.

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I don't think it's an issue. I think immigration can be the biggest

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issue of this debate, simply because it affects so many other things.

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We have, for example,

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our green spaces seem to be disappearing as we go on,

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our forests, it seems this is not just an economic issue

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but an environmental one as well

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and I would like to hear a bit more about

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whether we can actually keep a sustainable population, sustainable

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cities while we have...we're not hitting immigration targets.

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Hold on, we'll keep that one for a moment.

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The woman up there, on the right.

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I think it is quite right, we do need the immigrants,

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they make a good contribution to us.

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But also, I think there is no reason why we shouldn't have

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immigration, obviously, if we leave the EU,

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because we can then have the people that we need and the people

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that we want and I do think we would have more of a say in it.

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I don't think very many people,

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if any, are saying that we don't want any.

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You know, we need them, we want them.

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Allison Pearson.

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I don't think anyone is saying we don't want any.

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We had 330,000 last year and the Treasury's own predictions

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are that in 14 years' time it will be another 3.2 million.

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These are vast figures.

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One thing I really was offended by, that William Hague said,

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and I feel some of these Remainers, very lofty, quite complacent

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and arrogant, let's not let these little people bother us,

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let's think globally. He used the phrase "parochial concerns".

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"Don't vote on parochial concerns."

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So let's think about some parochial concerns in my village.

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Can you get your child into the local primary school?

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Can you get the sibling of your child into the same primary

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school so you don't waste 20 minutes commuting on your working

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day to another school?

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Isn't that because there was a recession in 2008

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and austerity came in?

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I haven't finished, I'm sorry.

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I thought this was a debate.

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APPLAUSE

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We have had a lot of male voices and I am going to speak now.

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This is about families and mothers and children.

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Half of all maternity units in England have

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closed their doors in the last two years, for up to three days, because

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the pressure on midwives and on the service in general is dreadful.

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We had figures out this week about the NHS which were buried

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because of Sarah Wollaston's defection.

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But waiting times have gone up.

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Everywhere we look, we have to create,

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by 2024, 900,000 school places,

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lots of children can't get into their first choice

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of secondary school or even their third choice of secondary school.

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So this is not about keeping foreigners out,

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this is about our country, how many people can we sustain

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and maintain the quality of life. I want to finish with one thing.

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Be quick because you made a long statement.

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Former Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said,

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if you have a well integrated country, it feels like a home.

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If you have too many people coming in, he said, it feels like a hotel.

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On 23rd of June we have to decide, is this our home or is it a hotel?

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Eddie Izzard.

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I just want to say to the people of Folkestone,

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the people of Britain, let us not forget a recession

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happened in 2008, a sub-prime capitalist recession.

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It came in, the government decided to do austerity.

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Austerity all across the country.

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Don't let's make the EU a scapegoat where we just lash out at the EU.

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There was a recession on and austerity is your policy.

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That's why people are hurting.

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The secretary general of the TUC and all major unions are saying,

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let's stay in the European Union.

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For God's sake, isn't it about humanity?

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We are trying to move forward in humanity, we are

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trying to head towards a world where everyone has a fair chance.

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The United Kingdom came together

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and that's what we're trying to do in the European Union.

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Let's head forwards, not backwards.

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Yeah, the biggest problem I find is we have a housing deficit.

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We can't build enough houses.

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A government, in a term, will set a figure, we can't reach it.

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We're not getting anywhere near it.

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We're talking about the mass immigration

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that is coming forward which we shouldn't be looking at.

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We should be looking at actually housing some of our former

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veterans, for one example,

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but we have got many families that are looking for property.

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There is just not enough.

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So, yes, immigration is a good thing

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but mass immigration is not a good thing.

0:15:380:15:40

An Australian-style points system will be the fix of this country.

0:15:400:15:44

What about the woman in spectacles? Hold on, Nigel.

0:15:450:15:50

-The woman in the spectacles.

-I completely agree with Eddie.

0:15:500:15:54

The issues around housing and health

0:15:540:15:56

-and the other systems aren't about immigration.

-They are.

0:15:560:16:00

-People are resources.

-ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

0:16:000:16:02

There are much more complicated reasons why...

0:16:020:16:05

Let her start her sentence again because everybody shouted you down.

0:16:050:16:08

Go on.

0:16:080:16:09

There are much more complicated reasons why those

0:16:090:16:12

systems are breaking down.

0:16:120:16:14

A deliberate attempt by the Tory government to

0:16:140:16:17

break down those systems

0:16:170:16:18

because it is part of the social welfare system.

0:16:180:16:21

It is an easy scapegoat, to blame immigrants.

0:16:210:16:25

It is a really important point and Eddie has just said it.

0:16:250:16:28

Let's ask ourselves the question, what is austerity?

0:16:280:16:30

Austerity is a simple concept, it is living within your means.

0:16:300:16:33

We cannot borrow and borrow in perpetuity into the future

0:16:330:16:37

and pass those debts to our children.

0:16:370:16:39

Rich people caused the sub-prime market meltdown.

0:16:390:16:41

Poorer people are having to pay for it.

0:16:410:16:43

APPLAUSE

0:16:430:16:45

-Nigel, on the housing point.

-A very odd place with this.

0:16:470:16:50

The housing crisis has nothing to do with what happened to the banks

0:16:500:16:54

in 2008. It does have to do with demand and supply in a marketplace.

0:16:540:16:59

Think about this.

0:16:590:17:01

At the moment, we have to build one new house every four minutes,

0:17:010:17:07

night and day, just to cope with current levels of immigration.

0:17:070:17:12

I would say that is wholly unsustainable

0:17:120:17:15

and what we need to do is get the net figures

0:17:150:17:18

coming into Britain back to an acceptable number so that

0:17:180:17:21

our young people have got a chance of getting on the housing ladder.

0:17:210:17:25

I'll come to you...

0:17:250:17:27

Nigel, presumably the immediate effect, if Britain voted Brexit,

0:17:280:17:32

would be a rush of EU people coming here to get in

0:17:320:17:36

in the two years before Brexit had taken place.

0:17:360:17:39

That will depend how the British government handles all this.

0:17:390:17:41

-You can't stop it if you're in the EU, can you?

-There are two factors.

0:17:410:17:45

One is, if we say the door's closing in X number of months,

0:17:450:17:48

there could be a flood.

0:17:480:17:49

The other is, the eurozone crisis is coming back in July of this year,

0:17:490:17:53

the third Greek bailout is on the agenda and I fear economic

0:17:530:17:57

collapse in the Mediterranean could lead to huge numbers.

0:17:570:18:00

The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney,

0:18:000:18:02

says we are most probably going to go into recession.

0:18:020:18:05

Luckily, Eddie, we didn't listen to you, we didn't join the euro,

0:18:050:18:08

otherwise we'd be totally skint.

0:18:080:18:09

I didn't say join the euro, Mark Carney...

0:18:090:18:11

THEY ARGUE

0:18:110:18:13

-Eddie...

-You still haven't explained why

0:18:130:18:15

you, as an immigrant family, are so anti-immigration.

0:18:150:18:18

Everyone here would like to hear.

0:18:180:18:20

The whole of the country would like to hear.

0:18:200:18:22

Because we want to control it.

0:18:220:18:24

I think we should make you change seats if you go on like this!

0:18:240:18:28

LAUGHTER

0:18:280:18:30

You put us next to each other.

0:18:300:18:31

-I just...

-No-one's fighting here.

0:18:330:18:36

No-one's getting out guns and arms, that is what

0:18:360:18:38

-the EU was set up to do...

-Nigel...

0:18:380:18:41

Nigel, I want to suggest this,

0:18:420:18:44

you said that if a vote for Brexit happened,

0:18:440:18:47

there would be a two-year period when people could flood in.

0:18:470:18:50

I remember you talking about when Poles flooded

0:18:500:18:52

in when Poland was admitted to the EU. Hold on a second.

0:18:520:18:56

It could be argued that, actually,

0:18:560:18:57

you would have a steadier rate, a more controlled

0:18:570:19:00

rate of immigration into Britain by remaining in the EU

0:19:000:19:03

and simply relying on the spread of growth in the EU for it not

0:19:030:19:06

to overwhelm this country in the way that you say it will,

0:19:060:19:08

whereas Brexit might have the exact opposite effect.

0:19:080:19:11

Let's get one point clear.

0:19:110:19:13

As members of the European Union, there is no control

0:19:130:19:15

whatsoever over the numbers that come from the European Union

0:19:150:19:19

and that, I think, is why Mr Cameron

0:19:190:19:21

is getting so ratty in this campaign.

0:19:210:19:23

You're a member for another two years.

0:19:230:19:25

He was elected saying he would reduce net migration to

0:19:250:19:28

tens of thousands a year.

0:19:280:19:29

-As an EU member, we have no control.

-Hilary Benn...

0:19:290:19:33

IZZARD AND FARAGE ARGUE OVER EACH OTHER

0:19:330:19:36

Is there ever an answer, are you just going to politically avoid it?

0:19:360:19:40

Hilary Benn...

0:19:400:19:41

IZZARD AND FARAGE ARGUE

0:19:410:19:43

Shut up!

0:19:450:19:46

APPLAUSE

0:19:460:19:48

Hilary Benn.

0:19:510:19:52

I think there's a problem controlling the panel.

0:19:530:19:56

Anyway, look...

0:19:560:19:57

The point is this, what nobody understands is...

0:19:570:20:01

I mean, you talk, Allison, about the pressures,

0:20:010:20:04

but how does damaging the British economy help us...?

0:20:040:20:08

Nigel, you say, come on, a moment ago you said,

0:20:080:20:13

if the price we pay is a bit less in GDP, that is what you said...

0:20:130:20:18

-Because GDP...

-WOMAN:

-Shut up!

0:20:180:20:21

That's what you said. You mentioned the two years.

0:20:210:20:25

David, your question to Nigel was about the two years.

0:20:250:20:28

If we vote to leave, the clock starts ticking on two years.

0:20:280:20:31

If we haven't negotiated a new trading arrangement with the

0:20:310:20:33

European Union in two years - you said this yourself, Nigel -

0:20:330:20:37

we revert to World Trade Organisation terms.

0:20:370:20:40

Do you know what that means?

0:20:400:20:41

Every day we export nearly 2,000 cars to Europe,

0:20:410:20:44

they enter Europe tariff-free.

0:20:440:20:46

When America and Japan try to sell to Europe they pay a 10% tariff.

0:20:460:20:51

We would start paying that if we exited and were on WTO terms.

0:20:510:20:56

Do you know what the tariff would be on fruit? It would be 22%.

0:20:560:21:02

-Damaging our economy...

-ALL TALK AT ONCE

0:21:020:21:05

All right, everybody. Calm down, everybody. Calm down.

0:21:050:21:09

Quieten down, please, panel, because otherwise the audience will get

0:21:090:21:13

so cross they'll walk out!

0:21:130:21:14

LAUGHTER

0:21:140:21:16

They'll do a Brexit!

0:21:160:21:18

I would ask you to take it in turns so everybody can hear what you say.

0:21:180:21:23

Let's go to a second question, about the economy, which is what

0:21:230:21:27

you've been gradually coming around to. Before I do that,

0:21:270:21:29

I want to tell the audience at home,

0:21:290:21:32

we have three Question Times during the next week.

0:21:320:21:35

Michael Gove is on his own against the audience in Nottingham -

0:21:350:21:39

or with, I should say.

0:21:390:21:41

There is a regular Thursday Question Time in York,

0:21:410:21:44

and there's another Question Time with David Cameron

0:21:440:21:46

from Milton Keynes on Sunday.

0:21:460:21:49

Then there is a week's pause while we vote

0:21:490:21:53

and then we are in Preston on June 30th.

0:21:530:21:56

If you want to come to any of those programmes

0:21:560:21:58

the details are on the screen.

0:21:580:22:00

Let's try and have a civilised debate and go on to a question

0:22:000:22:04

from Dean Onslow.

0:22:040:22:06

The eurozone seems to be lurching from one economic crisis to another.

0:22:060:22:10

Should we not distance ourselves from future economic risk?

0:22:100:22:15

The eurozone lurching from one economic crisis to another.

0:22:150:22:19

APPLAUSE

0:22:190:22:21

Hilary Benn, it picks up the point you were making when I stopped you,

0:22:210:22:24

so you can pick this question up.

0:22:240:22:26

Thanks very much. The most important point

0:22:260:22:28

is we are not in the euro.

0:22:280:22:30

We're not. It was the last Labour government that decided

0:22:300:22:33

we're not going to join the euro

0:22:330:22:34

and I can see no circumstances in which we ever would.

0:22:340:22:37

So, yes, there are problems for the eurozone,

0:22:370:22:40

but it is a demonstration of our sovereignty that we did not join.

0:22:400:22:45

We are not in the Schengen free passport area,

0:22:450:22:47

we are not affected by ever-closer union.

0:22:470:22:50

We are the fifth strongest economy in the world, but, Chris,

0:22:500:22:55

you decried the European market, you said it was fading and falling.

0:22:550:23:00

44% of our exports go to the EU.

0:23:000:23:04

It is our biggest customer.

0:23:040:23:06

The idea that if we walk away from Europe and tried to ring them up

0:23:060:23:10

and say, "Can you give us a good deal?"

0:23:100:23:13

Do we think France and Germany would give us a better deal outside

0:23:130:23:16

than they give themselves inside the EU?

0:23:160:23:20

-I don't think so.

-What about the damage that's been done, though?

0:23:200:23:23

APPLAUSE

0:23:230:23:25

Nigel Farage referred to it, and I think Chris did,

0:23:250:23:28

the damage that's being done now within Europe

0:23:280:23:31

by the eurozone countries and the problems they have,

0:23:310:23:34

are you saying that will have no impact at all on Britain

0:23:340:23:37

and we wouldn't therefore be better trying it outside?

0:23:370:23:40

It is having a big impact on the European countries

0:23:400:23:43

affected by high levels of unemployment,

0:23:430:23:46

that is the result of them having chosen to join the eurozone.

0:23:460:23:50

But coming out, not only do we have to renegotiate our trade deal

0:23:500:23:54

with Europe, we have to renegotiate our trade deal

0:23:540:23:56

with 53 other countries that we have deals with currently -

0:23:560:24:01

precisely because we are part of the largest single market in the world.

0:24:010:24:05

That is why all of the economists and studies have said

0:24:050:24:08

we will be worse off,

0:24:080:24:10

and I don't see how that helps the country one little bit.

0:24:100:24:14

APPLAUSE

0:24:140:24:16

The key point that you are missing when you talk about our trade

0:24:180:24:22

with the EU is that we buy far more from them

0:24:220:24:25

than they buy from us.

0:24:250:24:27

APPLAUSE

0:24:270:24:30

We have the most monumental trade deficit with the EU.

0:24:300:24:33

In what world will the German government say to its car-makers,

0:24:330:24:38

who sell a million cars a year in the UK,

0:24:380:24:41

"We're going to restrict your access to your most important market?"

0:24:410:24:44

In what world are the French government say to the French

0:24:440:24:47

farmers, and down on the south coast you know how they can get stroppy

0:24:470:24:51

and blockade ports and the rest, in what world are the French government

0:24:510:24:55

going to say to their farmers,

0:24:550:24:56

"We're going to put the price of your product in the UK up

0:24:560:24:59

"so you don't sell there any more?"

0:24:590:25:01

It's not going to happen. We, in the UK, outside the EU,

0:25:010:25:05

will represent 17% of the EU's exports. Those of you

0:25:050:25:09

in the audience in business, in what world would you go to war

0:25:090:25:12

with your biggest customer? It's not going to happen.

0:25:120:25:15

Are you saying there'll be no tariffs raised against Britain

0:25:150:25:18

exporting to Europe?

0:25:180:25:20

-Why would the Europeans...?

-Cos I heard Nigel Farage say...

0:25:200:25:24

You said 5% might happen, and it was cheaper than paying into the EU.

0:25:240:25:28

But the reason we would have a free trade agreement is they will have to

0:25:280:25:31

accept putting tariffs on the goods they sell to us,

0:25:310:25:34

and we buy more from them than they buy from us,

0:25:340:25:37

and it will cost EU jobs if they damage their access to our market,

0:25:370:25:41

which is why they won't do it.

0:25:410:25:43

APPLAUSE

0:25:430:25:48

Nigel Farage, you seem to think there is a possibility of tariffs

0:25:480:25:51

being raised. You said 5%.

0:25:510:25:54

What I'm saying is this,

0:25:540:25:56

what did we join just over 40 years ago and why did we join it?

0:25:560:26:00

We joined what was sold as a common market.

0:26:000:26:03

Anybody here aged over 58 - though they were warned by Hilary's dad

0:26:030:26:07

that it was a con job, and he was right - we joined a common market.

0:26:070:26:13

My mum and dad voted for tariff-free access.

0:26:130:26:16

That was the point, a post-war world,

0:26:160:26:18

a post-Wall Street crash world, of very, very high barriers,

0:26:180:26:22

particularly the manufactured goods being sold between countries.

0:26:220:26:25

So we signed up to get rid of tariffs, and that was great.

0:26:250:26:28

In the short-term there is a strong argument to say the common market

0:26:280:26:30

was good for the British economy.

0:26:300:26:32

Can you come to the question I put to you?

0:26:320:26:34

However... However... However...

0:26:340:26:37

the argument that is now being made by our two Remain panellists...

0:26:370:26:42

-EDDIE:

-Out of five.

0:26:420:26:43

Well, just shows you how things have moved on. In the old days

0:26:430:26:46

it was only me, so I'm delighted to have some company!

0:26:460:26:49

LAUGHTER AND CHEERING

0:26:490:26:53

Why don't you answer that question about your family?

0:26:530:26:55

Why aren't you very positive about immigrants?

0:26:550:26:58

I think you're beginning to bore people with this, I really do.

0:26:580:27:00

You've never answered it.

0:27:000:27:02

If nobody brings you to task...

0:27:020:27:04

-You never answer the question, you avoided.

-Eddie... Eddie...

0:27:040:27:08

We believe in sensible, controlled immigration, all right?

0:27:080:27:11

-You never answered the question.

-Can we please not hear that again?

0:27:110:27:14

You're from an immigrant family,

0:27:140:27:16

you just don't care about immigrants.

0:27:160:27:18

-That really is childish.

-No, that's you, that's your family.

0:27:180:27:22

Nigel, answer the question.

0:27:220:27:24

-Right, OK.

-I want to repeat it.

0:27:240:27:28

Are you saying there might be 5% tariffs on British exports?

0:27:280:27:32

We joined for tariff-free access to the European market,

0:27:320:27:36

40 years on we have tariff-free access to the single market

0:27:360:27:39

in a world where tariffs that were up there are now down there.

0:27:390:27:43

The costs of being part of the single market cartel

0:27:430:27:47

far outweigh any savings from tariffs.

0:27:470:27:50

Even if tariffs were put on our goods, the total cost would be

0:27:500:27:54

lower than our net contribution.

0:27:540:27:56

So my argument is the worst-case scenario is better than

0:27:560:28:01

where we are today, and as Chris says, the German car manufacturers

0:28:010:28:05

will go on selling their cars in this country

0:28:050:28:08

and I am going to go on drinking French wine and we'll go on

0:28:080:28:11

doing business with each other.

0:28:110:28:13

The man up there at the back.

0:28:130:28:15

APPLAUSE

0:28:150:28:18

It's not actually about "is it 1% of GDP?"

0:28:180:28:22

it's actually how do you as a country want to govern yourself,

0:28:220:28:26

and do you want to tie yourself to a certain number of other countries

0:28:260:28:30

that happen to be nearby, or do you want to trade with the world?

0:28:300:28:34

We can do both.

0:28:340:28:37

The truth, sir, the truth is we can do both.

0:28:370:28:40

The idea we are facing a choice between either trading with Europe

0:28:400:28:43

and the rest of the world... In the last five years,

0:28:430:28:45

what's happened to our exports to China? They have doubled.

0:28:450:28:48

What's happened to our trade with Commonwealth countries?

0:28:480:28:50

It's gone up enormously. It is not a competition between the two.

0:28:500:28:54

Nigel said even if there were tariffs then that would be

0:28:540:28:58

more than compensated for by the contribution

0:28:580:29:01

we wouldn't have to make to the budget.

0:29:010:29:03

Are you suggesting, Nigel, that you would use that money to compensate

0:29:030:29:07

businesses in Britain that were facing the cost of a tariff?

0:29:070:29:10

-Is that your policy?

-It isn't just about businesses,

0:29:100:29:12

it's about consumers.

0:29:120:29:14

Why don't you come clean with the public - when they buy goods

0:29:140:29:17

from outside the EU, if you buy a Japanese motor car,

0:29:170:29:21

you pay a 10% tariff. If you buy kids shoes for school,

0:29:210:29:25

you pay a 17% tariff if they come from outside the EU.

0:29:250:29:28

What we've done here, we've inextricably linked ourselves,

0:29:280:29:31

economically, to this fortress Europe idea.

0:29:310:29:34

And what I want is us to be a global trading nation

0:29:340:29:38

with cheaper prices for our consumers.

0:29:380:29:41

ALL TALK AT ONCE

0:29:410:29:43

All right, all right, wait. The woman there, you had your hand up.

0:29:430:29:46

Mr Benn said it's not about sovereignty -

0:29:460:29:48

-it is about sovereignty.

-I didn't say that.

-It's about democracy.

0:29:480:29:52

I didn't say it was about sovereignty. I didn't say that.

0:29:520:29:55

It is about our crown waters, our fishing industry, our farmers,

0:29:550:30:00

who get subsidised to put their land aside

0:30:000:30:05

so that they don't make the food that we can eat.

0:30:050:30:08

Our fishing industry, they were given subsidies

0:30:080:30:12

to burn their boats so that

0:30:120:30:14

the fishing quotas could be given elsewhere.

0:30:140:30:17

APPLAUSE

0:30:170:30:18

Hang on, I'll come to you in a minute.

0:30:180:30:20

I know you are 50-50 Remain...

0:30:200:30:24

Or pretty well 50-50 and 50-50 exit.

0:30:240:30:28

I want to hear from some Remainers

0:30:280:30:31

who believe what is happening is...

0:30:310:30:33

You, yes, indeed.

0:30:330:30:35

I'm not British citizen and this really, really scares me.

0:30:350:30:39

I've lived here for a long time

0:30:390:30:41

and what I hear tonight actually worries and scares me.

0:30:410:30:44

The EU was created originally by six countries after

0:30:440:30:49

the war for peace and stability.

0:30:490:30:52

Where is that now?

0:30:520:30:54

UK joined later, in '73, hopefully for the same principles.

0:30:550:31:00

Where are those principles tonight?

0:31:000:31:03

Where is your search for stability?

0:31:030:31:06

For... I don't know.

0:31:060:31:09

Yeah, to keep those ideas going?

0:31:090:31:12

What I've heard tonight, actually,

0:31:120:31:14

why I'm scared now is what I've heard tonight

0:31:140:31:16

is certain things that we're told were said in 1933 in Germany.

0:31:160:31:22

We're not far off.

0:31:220:31:24

APPLAUSE

0:31:240:31:26

Allison Pearson.

0:31:260:31:28

..all about immigration, and that really scares me

0:31:280:31:32

because it's not about that.

0:31:320:31:35

Those were used in 1933 in Nazi Germany.

0:31:350:31:40

-Allison.

-It's not the United Kingdom that's doing this.

-Who's doing it?

0:31:400:31:45

Can you let Allison answer?

0:31:450:31:47

-So, it's the European Union, it's Brussels.

-No.

-No, it is Brussels

0:31:470:31:51

because they are possessed by this ideal,

0:31:510:31:54

since the eurozone was created.

0:31:540:31:55

If we look across Europe, Europe is in a terrible economic mess.

0:31:550:32:00

And Eddie used the word "Humanity" earlier. The men,

0:32:000:32:04

the rich, white, old men, white men

0:32:040:32:07

who run Brussels have imposed austerity and terrible conditions.

0:32:070:32:13

Southern Europe, there are shortages of medicine...

0:32:130:32:17

-It's what the Tory government...

-..it's incredibly high.

0:32:170:32:21

They voted to come back in.

0:32:210:32:23

So this idea of peace and stability,

0:32:230:32:26

if you look across Europe,

0:32:260:32:27

you see lots of countries going to the far right,

0:32:270:32:31

going to the far left.

0:32:310:32:32

This is not caused by the UK, this is caused by Brussels,

0:32:320:32:36

which has not listened to the will of the European people.

0:32:360:32:40

And in 2005,

0:32:400:32:43

France and the Netherlands voted on the European constitution

0:32:430:32:46

and both countries resoundingly rejected the European constitution.

0:32:460:32:51

And Brussels didn't listen.

0:32:510:32:54

They didn't listen when the Greeks had a referendum and said,

0:32:540:32:56

"Please, do not impose more austerity on us."

0:32:560:33:00

Who is Brussels?

0:33:000:33:03

I'm sorry, but saying Brussels is not right because who is Brussels?

0:33:030:33:08

-We are all Brussels.

-No!

-Yes, we are.

-No, we are not!

0:33:080:33:12

-THEY SHOUT OVER EACH OTHER

-Yes, we are.

0:33:120:33:16

All right, can we have...?

0:33:160:33:19

Eddie Izzard and Nigel, if you would not interrupt him,

0:33:190:33:23

he promises not to interrupt you next time.

0:33:230:33:25

It's a deal.

0:33:250:33:27

We'll answer that question of you later.

0:33:270:33:29

Let us not forget,

0:33:320:33:34

we have to head towards a world where all people have a fair chance.

0:33:340:33:37

We have to head in that direction.

0:33:370:33:39

Because otherwise despair is the fuel of terrorism,

0:33:390:33:41

hope is the fuel of civilisation.

0:33:410:33:43

We've got to be putting hope into the world.

0:33:430:33:45

The United Kingdom, we used to kill each other in all sorts of wars

0:33:450:33:48

and we gradually came together, to live together

0:33:480:33:50

and work together in some shape or form.

0:33:500:33:52

What that form is Scotland is still deciding,

0:33:520:33:54

but they will peel off if there is Brexit.

0:33:540:33:55

They will be going. And Wales could well be going.

0:33:550:33:58

They won't. You sure, Allison? You're sure? How can you be sure?

0:33:580:34:02

-They can't afford to go.

-They will do that, they will wait their time

0:34:020:34:05

and then they will peel off. But the point is that

0:34:050:34:07

what we're doing in Europe is the hardest thing that's ever been done.

0:34:070:34:10

No continent has ever done this before.

0:34:100:34:12

This is not the American model.

0:34:120:34:14

2,500 years of murder, from Alexander The Great

0:34:140:34:16

to World War II, and then we said, "Let's not do it again,"

0:34:160:34:18

and it's not scaremongering, cos World War I

0:34:180:34:20

was not called World War I, it was called the Great War,

0:34:200:34:23

"the war to end all wars". And then there was another one.

0:34:230:34:25

So that's why we set up the European Union in the first place.

0:34:250:34:28

Whatever name it was. We were trying to make sure...

0:34:280:34:30

We were reaching out like this, and not like this.

0:34:300:34:32

And I feel the Brexiters are all doing this, and I'm doing this.

0:34:320:34:35

That's why I'm running marathons, that's why I'm transgender -

0:34:350:34:38

I came out 31 years ago - I'm trying to be brave,

0:34:380:34:40

I'm touring France in French, Germany in German.

0:34:400:34:42

These are positive things. I was there on D-Day, playing the shows,

0:34:420:34:45

celebrating 72 years of peace

0:34:450:34:46

and commemorating people who fell on that day.

0:34:460:34:48

-And what do you say to the question Dean Onslow asked?

-That one?

0:34:480:34:51

No, Dean Onslow's question was that the eurozone lurches

0:34:510:34:54

from one economic crisis to another, shouldn't we keep separate from it?

0:34:540:34:57

There was a recession. There was a recession on.

0:34:570:34:59

Did we just all lose memories? Remember that recession happened?

0:34:590:35:03

-And it goes in there, and we're trying to make it work.

-All right.

0:35:030:35:06

We are tried to make it work. We've got head forwards and upwards.

0:35:060:35:08

OK, Chris Grayling. I'll come to you in a moment. Chris Grayling.

0:35:080:35:11

Well, look, my view, very straightforwardly, on this

0:35:110:35:14

is that the European Union is being left behind.

0:35:140:35:17

It is a diminishing share of the world economy. If you look at where

0:35:170:35:20

the exciting developments are happening around the world,

0:35:200:35:22

they are in Asia, in the Americas,

0:35:220:35:24

they're actually in the Commonwealth. It is a nonsense

0:35:240:35:26

that we, as the principal country,

0:35:260:35:28

the lead country in the Commonwealth,

0:35:280:35:30

cannot even negotiate a free trade agreement

0:35:300:35:32

with our own Commonwealth partners.

0:35:320:35:33

The reality is that we will carry on...

0:35:330:35:36

MUTED APPLAUSE

0:35:360:35:38

We will carry on trading with the rest of Europe, as we do now,

0:35:390:35:42

because we buy more from them than they buy from us.

0:35:420:35:44

But it is a reality that we have a trade surplus

0:35:440:35:46

with the rest of the world, and a huge deficit in Europe.

0:35:460:35:49

The opportunities are elsewhere.

0:35:490:35:50

Let us not shut ourselves from them

0:35:500:35:52

-in an economic bloc that is going backwards.

-All right.

0:35:520:35:55

APPLAUSE

0:35:550:35:58

I seem to be a rare beast in the room - I haven't made my decision.

0:35:590:36:03

I've got my postal vote with me in my handbag.

0:36:030:36:05

LAUGHTER

0:36:050:36:06

And perhaps I'm the only one that's not being fought at

0:36:060:36:09

from both sides. But what I actually want you to do

0:36:090:36:12

is give me clear guidance about what could make a difference to my life,

0:36:120:36:15

and what could make a difference to me and my grandchildren

0:36:150:36:18

and help me put a cross in the box tonight.

0:36:180:36:20

And do you not feel you get this from hearing people talk about it?

0:36:200:36:23

-We're trying.

-I've got...

-We are trying.

0:36:230:36:26

I spend my time thinking, "Is that a plausible comment they just made?

0:36:260:36:29

"Is that feasible? Is that viable?

0:36:290:36:30

"Is there a competent and confident leadership after the referendum?"

0:36:300:36:35

I regret, at present, I do not know,

0:36:350:36:38

and it may be a tactical vote or purely, at the last minute,

0:36:380:36:41

close my eyes. And I feel utterly ashamed to say

0:36:410:36:44

that I cannot make my mind up. And I want you to help me.

0:36:440:36:47

-All right.

-So I think the key thing that you should bear in mind...

0:36:470:36:50

APPLAUSE

0:36:500:36:51

..on June the 23rd... We live in a country that has given away,

0:36:510:36:56

and is continuing to give away, and will carry on giving away

0:36:560:36:58

more and more of its ability to govern itself.

0:36:580:37:01

And I want my children to live their life in a country,

0:37:010:37:03

and I hope you want your children and grandchildren

0:37:030:37:06

to live in a country that looks after its own national interests,

0:37:060:37:08

is free to take decisions in its own national interest,

0:37:080:37:11

is not in a place where most of its laws are made in another place,

0:37:110:37:15

and where we have no control over things

0:37:150:37:17

that make a material difference to all of our lives.

0:37:170:37:20

Sorry, would you...?

0:37:200:37:21

APPLAUSE

0:37:210:37:24

Would you agree...? Would you agree, in talking to that woman,

0:37:240:37:27

that the important thing in this is that the information given

0:37:270:37:30

should be as near as possible accurate, as far as you know?

0:37:300:37:34

Well, we should try and explain the issues as carefully as we can.

0:37:340:37:37

For our different perspectives tonight,

0:37:370:37:39

we're all trying to explain the issues as we see them.

0:37:390:37:41

-We just disagree.

-All right.

0:37:410:37:42

Polly Radcliffe, let's have your question, then.

0:37:420:37:45

Given Sarah Wollaston's statement that it simply isn't true

0:37:450:37:48

that Brexit will unlock £350 million a week,

0:37:480:37:52

can we believe a word the Leave camp say?

0:37:520:37:55

And you'll know that the 350 million a week claim,

0:37:550:37:59

all of which, apparently, according to the commercial

0:37:590:38:01

that I saw on television just half an hour ago,

0:38:010:38:04

is all going to be spent on the NHS, or can all be spent on the NHS.

0:38:040:38:07

Some people think and say this simply isn't true.

0:38:070:38:10

Perhaps you should answer that.

0:38:100:38:12

Well, let me explain what the number is. It is a gross figure,

0:38:120:38:15

it is the official Office Of National Statistics figure

0:38:150:38:18

for our weekly contribution to the European Union,

0:38:180:38:20

Table 9.9 of the ONS Pink Book 2014.

0:38:200:38:23

We get about half of that money back, with strings attached,

0:38:230:38:26

in the form of grants that are decided in Brussels,

0:38:260:38:29

and in the form of a rebate which is constantly

0:38:290:38:31

-being argued about by European partners.

-Sorry, what are...?

0:38:310:38:33

What are the strings attached to the rebate?

0:38:330:38:36

The rebate is money that doesn't go there.

0:38:360:38:38

Well, the rebate is calculated, varies year by year...

0:38:380:38:40

What are the strings attached to it?

0:38:400:38:42

It's calculated a year later and netted against...

0:38:420:38:44

-But the Treasury gets it.

-Yes, the Treasury gets it.

0:38:440:38:46

I don't understand exactly. You get £350 million a week you pay,

0:38:460:38:49

95 million a week goes back to the Treasury.

0:38:490:38:52

So how can that be spent on the NHS?

0:38:520:38:54

-They can spend it now if they want to.

-Well, can I finish?

0:38:540:38:57

The other half, which is about £10 billion a year

0:38:570:39:00

is money that is spent elsewhere in Europe.

0:39:000:39:02

That is money that could be spent on our priorities here.

0:39:020:39:04

We have said in the campaign,

0:39:040:39:06

we think we'd be able to release £100 million a week,

0:39:060:39:08

£5 billion a year extra in the health service.

0:39:080:39:11

As well as having money spare to remove VAT on fuel bills,

0:39:110:39:15

and do some other things.

0:39:150:39:17

Do you regret...? Do you regret that 350 million,

0:39:170:39:20

which has been roundly criticised by people?

0:39:200:39:22

It's the overall figure. If you look at a job advert...

0:39:220:39:25

If I asked for £100 from you and I say, "Give me £100, Chris,"

0:39:250:39:29

and you give me £100.

0:39:290:39:30

"Actually, I don't need that 100, I'll give you 25 back."

0:39:300:39:32

Have you given me 75, or have you given me 100?

0:39:320:39:35

If you apply for a job...

0:39:350:39:36

APPLAUSE

0:39:360:39:38

If you apply for a job

0:39:410:39:43

and the salary in that job is set out, it doesn't say,

0:39:430:39:45

"£30,000, from which we will net off your National Insurance,

0:39:450:39:48

"we'll take off money for your income tax,

0:39:480:39:50

"and by the way you're a member of the pension scheme,

0:39:500:39:52

"so it's actually £23,000."

0:39:520:39:54

The advert says, "The salary is £30,000 a year."

0:39:540:39:57

Our contribution to the European Union

0:39:570:39:59

is £350 million a week,

0:39:590:40:00

of which we get some back and some we don't get back.

0:40:000:40:03

-Hilary Benn.

-Well, Chris, you've struggled to try and explain away

0:40:030:40:07

what is clearly untrue and, look, for me, when the chair...

0:40:070:40:10

When the chair...

0:40:100:40:11

A Conservative MP, who is the chair of the Health Select Committee,

0:40:110:40:15

as Sarah Wollaston did yesterday, comes out and says,

0:40:150:40:18

"I can no longer go along with this because it simply isn't true,"

0:40:180:40:21

that tells us something about the character of the Leave campaign.

0:40:210:40:25

But I also wanted to respond to the point that you made, madam,

0:40:250:40:28

in looking for guidance as to how to vote, because,

0:40:280:40:30

look, I am a father of four kids and a grandfather.

0:40:300:40:33

For me, this is a decision about the future for our children

0:40:330:40:36

-and our grandchildren.

-Everybody always says that.

-And I...!

0:40:360:40:38

Well, I'm going to say it.

0:40:380:40:40

Everybody's got children and grandchildren. Not so special.

0:40:400:40:42

The point I'm going to make, David, I know it's nothing special.

0:40:420:40:45

-LAUGHTER

-I know it's nothing special,

0:40:450:40:48

but Chris is absolutely wrong

0:40:480:40:50

when he says that the way to safeguard our future

0:40:500:40:54

is to isolate ourselves from 27 of our nearest neighbours.

0:40:540:40:58

If we're going to deal with the challenges we face in this century,

0:40:580:41:01

and help our children and our grandchildren to do that,

0:41:010:41:04

we have to work in collaboration with our neighbours

0:41:040:41:06

to tackle climate change, the threats from terrorism.

0:41:060:41:10

And I was really sorry, Allison,

0:41:100:41:12

when the Brussels bombings were taking place,

0:41:120:41:14

you tweeted about Brexit, because I tell you,

0:41:140:41:17

when our neighbours are being blown up by terrorists,

0:41:170:41:20

we should stand in solidarity with them, we should not run away.

0:41:200:41:23

Because we are stronger by doing so together.

0:41:230:41:26

APPLAUSE

0:41:260:41:28

Sorry, what did she tweet? What did she tweet?

0:41:280:41:30

You made a reference to Brexit

0:41:300:41:32

in that rather infamous tweet, Allison, didn't you?

0:41:320:41:34

-Yes, you did.

-I think that when we have...

0:41:340:41:37

Other countries have very weak security.

0:41:370:41:40

What happens is that people from those countries,

0:41:400:41:43

because they are in the EU, can come to our country.

0:41:430:41:46

What did you say in the tweet, sorry, for those who don't know?

0:41:460:41:49

I said that Brussels, which is the capital of the EU, has just seen...

0:41:490:41:54

This de facto capital of the EU is also this nest of jihadists.

0:41:540:41:58

That's what I said.

0:41:580:41:59

-We have also just seen recently...

-MURMURING

0:41:590:42:01

We are British people. We don't run and hide from stuff like this.

0:42:010:42:05

We didn't in the '30s, we're not going to now.

0:42:050:42:07

We should stand shoulder to shoulder with the Belgians and the French.

0:42:070:42:10

Recently, we have found out that two of the ringleaders

0:42:100:42:13

of the Paris bombing and the Brussels atrocities

0:42:130:42:16

had come to the West Midlands

0:42:160:42:17

and had come through Kent, I think, actually.

0:42:170:42:20

-So we are not safe about this.

-So Brexit would make us safer?

0:42:200:42:23

-Brexit would make us safer, yes. Absolutely.

-How? How?

0:42:230:42:26

-How?

-How?

-Because they wouldn't have one of these, Hilary.

0:42:260:42:29

They wouldn't have a European Union passport

0:42:290:42:31

and be able to travel freely - that's the point.

0:42:310:42:34

-What makes us safer...

-That's the point.

0:42:340:42:36

What makes us safer is cooperating with our neighbours

0:42:360:42:39

to exchange information...

0:42:390:42:41

to support our security services and the police.

0:42:410:42:43

-That's what will make us safer.

-OK...

-Not running away.

0:42:430:42:46

Let's hear from some more members of our lively audience.

0:42:460:42:48

You, sir, with spectacles on there. That's you, yes.

0:42:480:42:51

Just on this point of the 350 million figure.

0:42:510:42:54

The real, I think, problem that's been covered up there

0:42:540:42:57

is, actually, that we can't put that money back into the NHS

0:42:570:43:00

-or anywhere else straight away, because...

-Yeah, exactly.

0:43:000:43:03

Well, no, actually. You'd lose...

0:43:030:43:05

That money is offset by what you'd lose in GDP

0:43:050:43:08

and what you'd lose in tax returns from immigration.

0:43:080:43:11

So, actually, the gain you get is offset by what you do if you leave.

0:43:110:43:14

-Can I...?

-Briefly.

-Just quickly, exactly what you said.

0:43:140:43:18

The 350 million, they give us the half back of our money,

0:43:180:43:22

but they decide where it goes.

0:43:220:43:24

-So, for example...

-They don't decide where the rebate goes.

0:43:240:43:26

-They absolutely decide where it goes.

-Where the rebate goes?

0:43:260:43:29

-Yes, they...

-They don't say where to spend it.

-They do.

0:43:290:43:32

-It goes to the Treasury.

-It doesn't.

-Really? What do they say?

-No.

0:43:320:43:34

They say, we'll give this grant to the CBI, this grant to here...

0:43:340:43:38

-Hang on. Nigel...

-Say, for example...

0:43:380:43:40

Nigel, just a fact check here for us.

0:43:400:43:44

-Is it true...?

-I'll tell you what...

-Yes!

0:43:440:43:46

-Nigel, just do my bidding for once.

-Yeah.

0:43:460:43:48

Can you just fact check what she said?

0:43:480:43:51

Is it true that the rebate,

0:43:510:43:52

-that the EU tells us where to spend the rebate?

-No.

0:43:520:43:55

-I've never heard you say that.

-No, it doesn't.

0:43:550:43:57

But the rebate is up for constant discussion,

0:43:570:44:00

and our rebate keeps being chipped away at as the price of other deals.

0:44:000:44:04

Can we get to the truth of this? 350 million a week is wrong.

0:44:040:44:07

It's higher than that. It's higher than that.

0:44:070:44:09

-MURMURING

-If you look...

0:44:090:44:12

The trouble we've got here is, we're expressing things in billions

0:44:120:44:15

and hundreds of millions, and people get confused.

0:44:150:44:18

Fact, absolute fact, from the 2014 official yearly statistics,

0:44:180:44:23

cross-checked with the EU,

0:44:230:44:25

we pay £55 million a day as a contribution.

0:44:250:44:29

Some of that, David, is the rebate, which doesn't go,

0:44:290:44:32

but our gross contribution is 55 million a day.

0:44:320:44:35

In rebates and money that comes back

0:44:350:44:37

in terms of grants and agricultural support,

0:44:370:44:40

£21 million a day gets knocked off that 55 million.

0:44:400:44:45

I think maybe the easiest thing for us to do on the Brexit camp

0:44:450:44:48

is just to talk about the net figure.

0:44:480:44:50

And the net figure is £34 million every single day,

0:44:500:44:55

£10 billion a year,

0:44:550:44:56

and I say that is too much and we should spend that money

0:44:560:45:01

here in our own country, on our own people.

0:45:010:45:04

-Right...

-Well...

-Let's... I want to hear from you.

0:45:040:45:08

I'm going to hear from some more members of our audience.

0:45:080:45:10

Yes. Not too long, if you don't mind.

0:45:100:45:13

That's a very small proportion

0:45:130:45:14

of the total size of the British economy.

0:45:140:45:17

I don't think we'd notice it, really.

0:45:170:45:19

-And...

-MURMURING

0:45:190:45:21

Not to the extent that you seem to think that we would.

0:45:210:45:24

It's still a very small proportion.

0:45:240:45:26

And if you're right, Mr Farage, if you're right,

0:45:260:45:29

why is it that every time it looks like

0:45:290:45:32

the Leave campaign is edging ahead, that the pound is falling...

0:45:320:45:35

-It's not. It's not. The pound has gone up.

-It appears to be.

0:45:350:45:39

The pound has gone up.

0:45:390:45:40

Because the Remain campaign seems to strengthen, that's why.

0:45:400:45:43

Can we please...? This is utter rubbish.

0:45:430:45:45

The pound has been falling since July 2014.

0:45:450:45:47

Because you may be taking us out of the EU.

0:45:470:45:50

Since the end of March, when Brexit looked likely,

0:45:500:45:53

-the pound has risen by 4%.

-I don't think...

0:45:530:45:56

-You were a trader once.

-I was.

0:45:560:45:58

Speculation on currency doesn't get you very far,

0:45:580:46:00

-because it goes up and down.

-Course it does.

0:46:000:46:03

The woman there, and then I'll come to you.

0:46:030:46:05

The woman there on the right.

0:46:050:46:06

What is not credible is that people in the Leave campaign,

0:46:060:46:10

like Nigel Farage and Chris Grayling,

0:46:100:46:12

would invest that money in the NHS.

0:46:120:46:14

Nigel Farage doesn't even believe in the NHS.

0:46:140:46:17

Chris Grayling has prevailed over

0:46:170:46:20

the most devastating so-called Andrew Lansley reform,

0:46:200:46:25

which is basically cuts and...

0:46:250:46:27

I've spent the last 15 years as a Member of Parliament

0:46:270:46:29

campaigning to support my local NHS, and I will carry on doing so.

0:46:290:46:33

But Nigel wants an insurance-based system.

0:46:330:46:35

-Hilary, the point is...

-You do. You do want an insurance-based system.

0:46:350:46:39

-You do.

-Do you know what I'd like to do?

0:46:390:46:41

Do you know what I'd like to do with the ten billion?

0:46:410:46:43

I would like that ten billion to be spent

0:46:430:46:45

helping the communities in Britain

0:46:450:46:47

that your government damaged so badly by opening up the doors

0:46:470:46:50

to eight and then ten former communist countries.

0:46:500:46:54

And what people need...

0:46:540:46:56

What people need, Hilary, are schools, hospitals, GPs.

0:46:560:46:58

-That's what they need.

-All right...

-I just want to say something.

0:46:580:47:01

-Silence for Eddie Izzard again.

-The Governor of the Bank of England

0:47:010:47:04

says we'll most probably go into recession.

0:47:040:47:06

The IFS, the OECD, the World Trade Organisation...

0:47:060:47:09

Barack Obama says don't leave. Hillary Clinton backs him up.

0:47:090:47:12

LAUGHTER

0:47:120:47:13

And Donald Trump is the only one on their side,

0:47:130:47:16

and he is to the right of Attila the Hun.

0:47:160:47:18

That is not someone that you should be following.

0:47:180:47:21

Donald Trump is the only one... You don't hear this economic argument.

0:47:210:47:24

They're just talking about immigration.

0:47:240:47:26

-No, we're not.

-Here, you're not, but normally you are.

0:47:260:47:29

You at the back.

0:47:290:47:31

The question was about Sarah Wollaston changing her mind.

0:47:310:47:35

It's rather depressing that she changed her decision

0:47:350:47:38

because of the way the campaign was being run

0:47:380:47:41

and not on the issues themselves, or that was how it came over.

0:47:410:47:45

Yes, all right.

0:47:460:47:48

And you, sir, there. The man there in the blue shirt. Yes.

0:47:480:47:51

And then the woman in front of you after you. Yes.

0:47:510:47:54

Bald-headed and blue shirt. Yeah.

0:47:540:47:56

Nothing against you. Just hard to identify you.

0:47:560:48:00

Separated at birth.

0:48:000:48:02

In some regards, it doesn't matter what Nigel thinks,

0:48:020:48:05

because Nigel's not elected,

0:48:050:48:08

and with respect to Allison,

0:48:080:48:10

if I don't want to agree with her views,

0:48:100:48:13

I don't have to buy the Telegraph.

0:48:130:48:14

If I disagree with Eddie's views, I can turn him off.

0:48:140:48:17

But what, for me, is the crux of the matter is sovereignty,

0:48:170:48:20

and the two elected ones...

0:48:200:48:23

And there's things about both of you I dislike, I'll be quite honest.

0:48:230:48:26

But if I dislike you enough, I can vote you out.

0:48:260:48:30

Here, here.

0:48:300:48:31

I can't have the same effect with a European set-up.

0:48:310:48:36

So if our laws are being made in Westminster, I can get rid of you.

0:48:360:48:41

You can vote Nigel out. You CAN vote Nigel out.

0:48:420:48:45

You can vote me out of a job by voting for Brexit.

0:48:450:48:47

I'm the turkey that'll vote for Christmas.

0:48:470:48:50

And the... And the woman in front of you. The woman in front of you.

0:48:500:48:54

My problem with the Brexit campaign is not so much the figures.

0:48:540:48:59

I think figures can be manipulated by either side.

0:48:590:49:02

I think the problem is,

0:49:020:49:03

and it's the same with the Remain campaign to an extent,

0:49:030:49:07

it's all if - if we come out, this might happen.

0:49:070:49:10

Well, I, like the lady at the front, am also not decided,

0:49:100:49:15

and I am swayed by some of the Leave arguments,

0:49:150:49:20

but I still don't really know what will happen if we do leave.

0:49:200:49:24

What's your...? What's your hesitation about it?

0:49:240:49:27

Is it about whether immigration would be better controlled?

0:49:270:49:30

-Is it about the economy?

-I think...

-Whether there'd be a recession?

0:49:300:49:34

I think the biggest one is about the economy,

0:49:340:49:37

and all the Remain campaigners say

0:49:370:49:39

if we stay in, the economy will be better,

0:49:390:49:41

and all the Leave, obviously, say the opposite.

0:49:410:49:44

But which one do you believe, and what figures do you believe?

0:49:440:49:47

ALL TALK AT ONCE Listen...

0:49:470:49:49

-Listen to her. She's made her point.

-Actually...

0:49:490:49:52

No, no, no, no. Nigel, no. You've all made your point several times.

0:49:520:49:55

We take your point, hear what you said.

0:49:550:49:57

I want to take another question. We've only got eight minutes left.

0:49:570:50:00

Belinda Walker, and this is relevant to what was being said

0:50:000:50:02

by two former Prime Ministers,

0:50:020:50:04

John Major and Tony Blair, today in Belfast.

0:50:040:50:07

-Belinda Walker, let's just have your question.

-Yes.

0:50:070:50:09

Will an unintended consequence of Brexit

0:50:090:50:12

be the break-up of the United Kingdom?

0:50:120:50:15

Will an unintended consequence of Brexit be the break-up of the UK?

0:50:150:50:18

-Eddie Izzard, you start on this.

-Yes, I think so.

0:50:180:50:20

Nicola Sturgeon said she wouldn't immediately do a referendum...

0:50:200:50:24

I was up there, I was campaigning. I said, "Please don't go."

0:50:240:50:28

I got a lot of hatred for it, but I said, "Please don't go."

0:50:280:50:30

They're very positive on Europe, so if there is an exit,

0:50:300:50:34

they will work out their time and then they will leave.

0:50:340:50:36

Wales could do that as well,

0:50:360:50:38

and then the north of England could split up.

0:50:380:50:40

There's no logic...

0:50:400:50:41

If you think about the logic... of the direction of Brexit,

0:50:410:50:44

We've got to go forward and try and make Europe work.

0:50:440:50:47

We've got to stay in to try and make it work.

0:50:470:50:49

It's for the future of humanity.

0:50:490:50:51

If you exit, you cut it down, then Scotland could well go,

0:50:510:50:54

and then Wales might be there, but then the north of England...

0:50:540:50:57

Where do you go in the future?

0:50:570:50:58

There's no future except getting smaller and the Little Englander.

0:50:580:51:01

The Nigel Farage Little Englander, ex-immigrant, coming in...

0:51:010:51:04

-I don't know where that goes.

-All right, Chris Grayling.

0:51:040:51:07

APPLAUSE

0:51:070:51:09

-Little Englander.

-The first thing...

-Are you a Little Englander?

0:51:100:51:13

-WOMAN:

-I vote for exit, and I'm not a Little Englander.

0:51:130:51:18

And my... And my ancestry goes back 700 years in this country.

0:51:180:51:23

-Well, so does mine.

-Well, there you go, then.

0:51:230:51:26

Why aren't you more insistent on your sovereignty, then?

0:51:260:51:30

No, but the point is...

0:51:300:51:32

We are part of a club to make the whole economy better.

0:51:320:51:35

-Our economy is better if we're inside.

-No, it isn't.

0:51:350:51:38

-Yes, it is.

-No, it isn't.

-Yes, it is.

0:51:380:51:41

All right, all right. LAUGHTER

0:51:410:51:44

Try... Try to avoid pantomime here.

0:51:440:51:48

-Chris Grayling.

-The first thing to say is, the Scottish people -

0:51:480:51:51

thank goodness, well done for campaigning, Eddie -

0:51:510:51:53

voted to stay part of the United Kingdom.

0:51:530:51:56

We are one United Kingdom, we vote as one United Kingdom.

0:51:560:51:59

Every single citizen, from Stornoway to St Ives,

0:51:590:52:01

will vote with the same weight

0:52:010:52:04

about all of our futures in or out of the European Union.

0:52:040:52:06

I say thank goodness Scotland didn't vote for independence.

0:52:060:52:09

If it had done, it would have been in the middle

0:52:090:52:11

of the most profound financial crisis now

0:52:110:52:13

because of the collapse in the oil price.

0:52:130:52:16

And at the Scottish elections, the nationalists went down

0:52:160:52:19

and the most recent poll showed

0:52:190:52:20

that support for nationalism in Scotland has gone down.

0:52:200:52:23

We are one country, I'm proud to be one country.

0:52:230:52:26

We should carry on being one country.

0:52:260:52:28

And it's just worth touching briefly on the Northern Ireland point.

0:52:280:52:31

We've had a common travel area

0:52:310:52:33

with Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland since 1923.

0:52:330:52:37

Those who suggest that, somehow, that is going to disappear

0:52:370:52:40

because we leave the European Union are simply not right.

0:52:400:52:43

Our relationship with the Republic of Ireland

0:52:430:52:45

is very different to any other EU country.

0:52:450:52:47

It will carry on as it did before.

0:52:470:52:49

All right, well, I know you're not meant to be doing blue on blue,

0:52:490:52:53

but David Cameron, the Prime Minister, is worried that Brexit

0:52:530:52:56

would lead to a second Scottish independence referendum.

0:52:560:53:00

John Major says, "The plain uncomfortable truth," I quote him,

0:53:000:53:03

"is that the unity of the United Kingdom itself

0:53:030:53:05

"is on the ballot paper in two weeks' time."

0:53:050:53:07

-They're both wrong?

-I'm afraid I think they are both wrong,

0:53:070:53:10

and the most recent opinion polling in Scotland,

0:53:100:53:12

during this campaign, in the last few days,

0:53:120:53:15

at a time when the Brexit campaign has been gaining momentum,

0:53:150:53:18

has shown, actually, a fall in support for Scottish separation.

0:53:180:53:21

All right, Allison Pearson.

0:53:210:53:23

Going back to what Chris said, I mean,

0:53:230:53:26

the simple economics of it is cos the oil price has fallen,

0:53:260:53:29

Scotland can't afford to leave.

0:53:290:53:31

I'm Welsh, and I think that Wales might be with Brexit.

0:53:310:53:35

Just want to quickly come back...

0:53:350:53:37

-Wales might be with Brexit?

-I think Wales might be with Brexit, yes.

0:53:370:53:41

And Scotland, you think...

0:53:410:53:42

-WOMAN:

-I'm Welsh, and I don't think they will.

0:53:420:53:44

APPLAUSE

0:53:440:53:47

Say why. Say why. We'd better hear your views.

0:53:480:53:51

-You think Wales will vote to remain?

-I just think that, you know,

0:53:510:53:54

we've been isolated for so long, and we're part of Europe,

0:53:540:53:57

and I think we're better together. we're stronger together.

0:53:570:54:01

All this better together.

0:54:010:54:03

Eddie's going on about this lovely harmonious thing.

0:54:030:54:06

Is that not what we're trying to get to?

0:54:060:54:08

-You may not be, but I'm trying to do it.

-It's not happening...

0:54:080:54:11

We've got to try harder, not run away from it.

0:54:110:54:14

-Running and hiding won't work.

-Hilary Benn, your go.

0:54:140:54:17

Well, look...

0:54:170:54:19

-It is...

-Can I just say, Chris Grayling's a hypocrite

0:54:190:54:22

to say, "I didn't want Scotland to be on their own,"

0:54:220:54:25

but yet he wants the UK to be on their own.

0:54:250:54:28

All right. Hilary Benn.

0:54:280:54:30

Look...

0:54:300:54:31

The truth about the European Union is, it is an astonishing achievement

0:54:310:54:35

given what we used to do to each other.

0:54:350:54:37

You only have to visit the graveyards

0:54:370:54:39

of the First and Second World Wars

0:54:390:54:41

to know how important this creation is.

0:54:410:54:43

And, yes, it's difficult,

0:54:430:54:44

and sometimes we don't get everything that we want.

0:54:440:54:47

But it's a lot better than fighting each other.

0:54:470:54:49

To answer your question directly,

0:54:490:54:50

it could well lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom.

0:54:500:54:53

Now, we just spent the time in that referendum

0:54:530:54:56

arguing, in Scotland, we are better and stronger together.

0:54:560:55:01

And now we're on a panel with three people saying, you know what?

0:55:010:55:04

We're better and stronger not together, breaking up.

0:55:040:55:07

And that is not the right approach to take.

0:55:070:55:09

And the nightmare - we leave the European Union,

0:55:090:55:12

the United Kingdom breaks up,

0:55:120:55:14

heaven forbid Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister,

0:55:140:55:17

President Le Pen wins in France, and Donald Trump in America.

0:55:170:55:19

Although I think that won't happen, because people will be wise enough

0:55:190:55:22

to vote for a candidate called Hillary.

0:55:220:55:24

Surely the key point is that we live

0:55:300:55:32

and we are citizens of a country called the United kingdom.

0:55:320:55:35

We do not live in a country, yet, called the European Union.

0:55:350:55:39

It may well be that it becomes something like a country,

0:55:390:55:42

but we are, within the United Kingdom, one single nation.

0:55:420:55:44

We used to be separate nations and we came together.

0:55:440:55:46

That's what the world's got to be about.

0:55:460:55:49

-We've got to head in that direction.

-Nigel Farage.

0:55:490:55:51

Belinda Walker asked, will an unintended consequence,

0:55:510:55:54

or maybe an intended consequence, be the break-up of the UK?

0:55:540:55:57

I don't believe it will, although I have to say, as a Brexiteer,

0:55:570:56:00

to see Tony Blair back in the fray,

0:56:000:56:01

telling us what we should think and what we should do,

0:56:010:56:03

yippee, bring it on!

0:56:030:56:05

Let's see more of Blair, because his credibility is just about zero.

0:56:050:56:10

The idea that Wales somehow is in love with the European Union,

0:56:100:56:14

you're all in for a shock.

0:56:140:56:15

Wales is every bit as Euro-sceptic as the rest of England.

0:56:150:56:19

And I also think in Scotland, you'll be very surprised.

0:56:190:56:22

This idea that Scotland is massively pro-EU and England's anti-EU,

0:56:220:56:26

what you'll find is the results won't actually be that different.

0:56:260:56:31

And the idea that Nicola Sturgeon is going to hold a second referendum

0:56:310:56:37

on separation from the United Kingdom

0:56:370:56:39

with oil at below 50 bucks a barrel,

0:56:390:56:42

you may as well go and drink moonshine -

0:56:420:56:44

it ain't going to happen.

0:56:440:56:46

OK.

0:56:460:56:47

Can I...?

0:56:470:56:49

We've got... We're just running out of time.

0:56:490:56:52

She's going to wait her time.

0:56:520:56:53

But that is a huge part,

0:56:530:56:55

and they get 245 million in Wales, so that's why Wales should stay.

0:56:550:56:58

-100 million goes into...

-What about from us?

0:56:580:57:01

All right, all right, all right.

0:57:010:57:02

That's a positive thing they get from the European Union.

0:57:020:57:05

There's a woman in the second row who has her hand up.

0:57:050:57:07

Just before the end, I'll give you...

0:57:070:57:09

You argue with each other, but let's hear from her.

0:57:090:57:12

-Just ten seconds.

-Thank you.

-Very briefly.

-Thank you. Very briefly.

0:57:120:57:15

Eddie, you've been banging on at Nigel about him being an immigrant.

0:57:150:57:18

Excuse me, Nigel is an Englishman.

0:57:180:57:20

-He's an English gentleman.

-He comes from an immigrant family.

0:57:200:57:23

-He embraces the English culture...

-His family came through...

0:57:230:57:27

I said we'd give her ten seconds. You've nearly had your time.

0:57:270:57:31

-Sorry, can I not say any more?

-I told you... Yeah.

0:57:310:57:34

-I can do a bit more?

-Not much more.

-No, no.

-Five seconds more.

0:57:340:57:38

-It's about the English culture. What's happening...

-British.

0:57:380:57:42

The British, sorry, all right, the British culture.

0:57:420:57:44

But do you mean English or British?

0:57:440:57:47

UK culture, as we know it, as it is now,

0:57:470:57:49

if we allow ourselves to just keep being invaded,

0:57:490:57:52

we are getting diluted.

0:57:520:57:54

All right, fine. We've got to stop. I'm sorry.

0:57:540:57:57

I apologise to all of you who have your hands up,

0:57:570:58:00

and I'm sorry, sir, not to be able to bring you in.

0:58:000:58:04

We only have an hour, an hour's up.

0:58:040:58:06

We have more programmes, though,

0:58:060:58:08

because we're in Nottingham next Wednesday

0:58:080:58:11

for a special programme with Michael Gove and a Question Time audience.

0:58:110:58:16

We have David Cameron in Milton Keynes on Sunday next,

0:58:160:58:20

with an audience.

0:58:200:58:21

Not this coming Sunday, the Sunday after.

0:58:210:58:24

And those programmes are at 6.45 on BBC One,

0:58:240:58:28

not at our usual time.

0:58:280:58:29

And in between that, next Thursday,

0:58:290:58:31

if you can keep up with this, which I barely can,

0:58:310:58:33

our regular time after the Ten O'Clock News,

0:58:330:58:36

we've got a Question Time coming from York - that's next Thursday.

0:58:360:58:39

And in the far, far, far distant future, after the referendum,

0:58:390:58:42

we're going to be in Preston on June 30th.

0:58:420:58:44

If you'd like to come to any of those audiences,

0:58:440:58:47

the website address is there, the telephone number...

0:58:470:58:52

If you're listening on Five Live, as you know,

0:58:520:58:55

the debate continues on Question Time Extra Time,

0:58:550:58:58

and no doubt it'll be very lively.

0:58:580:58:59

But here the debate comes to an end. Sadly, for most of us.

0:58:590:59:03

My thanks to our panel

0:59:030:59:05

and to all of you who came here to Folkestone to take part.

0:59:050:59:07

So until next Wednesday, at 6.45, with Michael Gove,

0:59:070:59:11

from Question Time, goodnight.

0:59:110:59:13

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