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Tonight, we're in Folkestone, and this is Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
And welcome to you, | 0:00:12 | 0:00:13 | |
whether you're with us by television or radio, or in our audience here, | 0:00:13 | 0:00:17 | |
and, of course, to our panel. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:18 | |
Tonight, the Leader of the House of Commons, | 0:00:18 | 0:00:20 | |
one of four Cabinet ministers campaigning to leave the EU, | 0:00:20 | 0:00:24 | |
Chris Grayling. | 0:00:24 | 0:00:25 | |
Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, supporting Remain, Hilary Benn. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:30 | |
The leader of Ukip, Nigel Farage. | 0:00:30 | 0:00:34 | |
The Daily Telegraph columnist and a Brexiter, Allison Pearson, | 0:00:34 | 0:00:38 | |
and the comedian campaigning to remain in the EU, Eddie Izzard. | 0:00:38 | 0:00:42 | |
And remember, of course, you've got Facebook, Twitter | 0:00:53 | 0:00:55 | |
or texting on 83981, | 0:00:55 | 0:00:58 | |
if you want to comment on what's said here this evening. | 0:00:58 | 0:01:01 | |
Matt Dickingson has our first question, please. Matt. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:03 | |
Yesterday, William Hague said that | 0:01:03 | 0:01:05 | |
voters should not make their decision in the referendum | 0:01:05 | 0:01:08 | |
on the basis of controlling immigration. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:10 | |
-Do you agree? -William Hague made this statement yesterday. | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
-Nigel Farage, was he right? -Extraordinary, isn't it? | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
This was the Hague who, of course, was the great Euro-sceptic leader | 0:01:16 | 0:01:19 | |
of the Conservative Party who fought against the euro, | 0:01:19 | 0:01:22 | |
who railed against Europe and integration, | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
and appears to have really rather sold out. | 0:01:25 | 0:01:27 | |
Look, whichever way you cut this, | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
immigration is the number one issue in British politics. | 0:01:31 | 0:01:34 | |
It has been for some years. The opinion polls are astonishing. | 0:01:34 | 0:01:38 | |
77% of the British public want cuts | 0:01:38 | 0:01:41 | |
to the numbers coming into Britain and over half the voters | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
want a reduction to near zero. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
So people are very upset, they're very unhappy. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:50 | |
They're seeing the impact on local schools, | 0:01:50 | 0:01:53 | |
they're seeing the impact on GP services, | 0:01:53 | 0:01:55 | |
they're seeing the impact on housing, | 0:01:55 | 0:01:58 | |
or the inability of young people to get on the housing ladder. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:01 | |
So that's why it's the number one issue. | 0:02:01 | 0:02:03 | |
And I think that the reason in this referendum | 0:02:03 | 0:02:07 | |
why we have to talk about this is all the while, all the while, | 0:02:07 | 0:02:11 | |
that, which is a British passport, or it should be, | 0:02:11 | 0:02:15 | |
but the first two words on it are European Union, | 0:02:15 | 0:02:17 | |
that is available to 508 million people. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:21 | |
And any of those people, if they wish, can come to this country. | 0:02:21 | 0:02:24 | |
We have no control. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:25 | |
The only way we get control is to vote to leave the European Union. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:30 | |
And I think William Hague shows he's just completely lost touch | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
-with where the British public are on this issue. -OK. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:37 | |
In my mind, this is the issue that will decide the referendum. | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
And that... APPLAUSE | 0:02:40 | 0:02:44 | |
And that's why you said it didn't matter | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
if we weren't slightly richer by leaving, | 0:02:48 | 0:02:51 | |
-as long as we cut immigration? -Well, what I said was this, | 0:02:51 | 0:02:54 | |
there are reports that say | 0:02:54 | 0:02:55 | |
that we're better off with mass immigration. | 0:02:55 | 0:02:58 | |
There are some reports that say we're slightly worse off, | 0:02:58 | 0:03:01 | |
economically, with mass immigration. | 0:03:01 | 0:03:02 | |
But, to me, there's an issue called the quality of life, | 0:03:02 | 0:03:06 | |
and I think that matters more than money. | 0:03:06 | 0:03:08 | |
It's about thinking our kids and grandkids can have what we've had | 0:03:08 | 0:03:12 | |
in terms of access to local health care, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
in terms of our kids getting into local primary schools, | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
in terms of our overall quality-of-life. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
And that, David, I think, matters more | 0:03:21 | 0:03:23 | |
-than GDP rising by 1% per annum. -OK, well, no doubt we'll... | 0:03:23 | 0:03:26 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:26 | 0:03:28 | |
Eddie Izzard. | 0:03:30 | 0:03:32 | |
Well, between 2001 and 2011, | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
EU migrants put in 20 billion into the EU economy. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:40 | |
They put in more than they take out. | 0:03:40 | 0:03:42 | |
I know people are concerned about immigration, | 0:03:42 | 0:03:45 | |
but we've got to look at the facts. These facts are in front of us. | 0:03:45 | 0:03:49 | |
I mean, Sarah Wollaston, she exited the Brexit campaign today | 0:03:49 | 0:03:52 | |
because she said that the figures that are coming out | 0:03:52 | 0:03:54 | |
from the Brexit side are coming out false. | 0:03:54 | 0:03:58 | |
And she said, and she's a GP, she said, | 0:03:58 | 0:04:00 | |
like the NHS, a lot of information was stoked up about the NHS | 0:04:00 | 0:04:03 | |
and she said, "It's not true. It isn't true." | 0:04:03 | 0:04:05 | |
So she has actually left the campaign | 0:04:05 | 0:04:07 | |
and she's joined the Remain side. There are sceptics, | 0:04:07 | 0:04:09 | |
Euro-sceptics that are joining the Remain side even though | 0:04:09 | 0:04:12 | |
they're still sceptical because they see the economic problems | 0:04:12 | 0:04:14 | |
of pulling out. If we pull out, we are going to go into recession. | 0:04:14 | 0:04:17 | |
Brexit is almost an anagram of recession. | 0:04:17 | 0:04:20 | |
If you put two S's into the word Brexit, it's Brexession. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:22 | |
-They almost designed it that way. -LAUGHTER | 0:04:22 | 0:04:24 | |
-And... -What's that got to do with immigration, Eddie? | 0:04:24 | 0:04:27 | |
Wasn't that the question, immigration? | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
Well, the point is if we pull out then we become Norway, | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
Norway still has to have the free movement of people in. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:34 | |
So we become Norway or are we going to become Albania? | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
If we do, the Prime Minister of Albania wants to join the EU. | 0:04:36 | 0:04:38 | |
Or we become Canada. The point is, you are from an immigrant family | 0:04:38 | 0:04:41 | |
and you're married to an immigrant. Why are you so against immigration | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
-when it worked for your family? -Because we have to control it. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
-APPLAUSE -Hang on. You grew up... | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
You're from... You're French Protestants from one side, | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
you're German from the other side. | 0:04:53 | 0:04:55 | |
-You should be the champion... -Well, I am. -You should be the champion | 0:04:55 | 0:04:58 | |
-of people who are immigrants coming in. -I am, but why...? | 0:04:58 | 0:05:00 | |
-They got it to your situation. -Why do you want to stop people | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
from the Commonwealth coming in because we have an open door to...? | 0:05:03 | 0:05:06 | |
Why do you want to stop people coming in to a country...? | 0:05:06 | 0:05:08 | |
SMATTERED APPLAUSE | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
Because I want to have an Australian-style points system... | 0:05:10 | 0:05:12 | |
Your ancestors are revolving in their graves. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:14 | |
..where we get the right people coming to Britain | 0:05:14 | 0:05:16 | |
-in the right numbers. -Nigel, | 0:05:16 | 0:05:18 | |
you told your followers to bully people to vote for you. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:20 | |
-This is not the right attitude. -Eddie, Eddie, | 0:05:20 | 0:05:23 | |
if we go on with current levels of immigration... | 0:05:23 | 0:05:25 | |
You've got to answer your own personal situation here! | 0:05:25 | 0:05:27 | |
-..our population will be... -You are from an immigrant family. | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
-..will be 80 million by 2040. -All right, all right. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:33 | |
-OK. -How are we going to...? -All right, I get it. | 0:05:33 | 0:05:35 | |
-APPLAUSE -How are we going to cope? | 0:05:35 | 0:05:38 | |
There are four... There are three, three other people at the table, | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
-I'm going to go to one of them. -How do we cope... | 0:05:41 | 0:05:43 | |
-Hilary Benn, your turn. -..with a population of 80 million | 0:05:43 | 0:05:45 | |
-in 25 years' time? -Hilary Benn, your turn. -That's the question. | 0:05:45 | 0:05:48 | |
I'm the son of an immigrant. | 0:05:48 | 0:05:51 | |
Now, Nigel, you say that you want | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
an Australian-style points system. | 0:05:53 | 0:05:55 | |
-Yes. -What has it done in Australia? It's increased immigration. | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
Now, let's tell each other the truth. | 0:05:59 | 0:06:00 | |
It's a very important issue and you're right that people | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
have concerns and there are pressures | 0:06:03 | 0:06:05 | |
in particular communities. | 0:06:05 | 0:06:06 | |
But the truth is, there will continue to be immigration | 0:06:06 | 0:06:09 | |
whether we remain in the European Union | 0:06:09 | 0:06:11 | |
or leave the European Union. | 0:06:11 | 0:06:13 | |
But why can't you make your decision on the basis | 0:06:13 | 0:06:15 | |
of controlling immigration, the question that I was asking? | 0:06:15 | 0:06:18 | |
To come to that directly, I don't think it's wise | 0:06:18 | 0:06:20 | |
to make your decision just on that basis for this reason. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:24 | |
The price we pay for leaving will be to damage our economy. | 0:06:24 | 0:06:29 | |
You know, it's very rare to get so many economists to reach agreement, | 0:06:29 | 0:06:32 | |
nine out of ten. To get all of the surveys of business opinion, | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
the IMF, the OECD, the World Bank, | 0:06:36 | 0:06:38 | |
the governor of the Bank of England. | 0:06:38 | 0:06:40 | |
Now, if you think they're all wrong, | 0:06:40 | 0:06:42 | |
you have to be pretty confident that they're all wrong. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
How does damaging our economy, | 0:06:45 | 0:06:47 | |
making life more difficult for people, putting up prices | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
if the pound falls, how is that going to help deal with | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
the problem of immigration? It isn't. | 0:06:53 | 0:06:55 | |
And I make one other point. | 0:06:55 | 0:06:56 | |
One in five of our care workers in this country | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
come from outside the United Kingdom. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
Outside the United Kingdom. | 0:07:03 | 0:07:04 | |
We have a demographic time bomb. More of us are getting older, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
we're going to need care, so that is why we will continue to need | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
immigration, and what most people would say is | 0:07:10 | 0:07:13 | |
as long as people come, they work, they pay their taxes - | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
and Eddie is absolutely right, they contribute more into our economy | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
than they take out - you know what that money goes on? | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
-Helping to pay for our schools and our NHS. -OK... | 0:07:22 | 0:07:24 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:24 | 0:07:27 | |
Yes, in the third row there. | 0:07:27 | 0:07:30 | |
I don't think anyone's putting into question that immigrants have had | 0:07:30 | 0:07:33 | |
a fantastic, you know, have had a great impact on the economy. | 0:07:33 | 0:07:37 | |
But there has to be a limit at some point. | 0:07:37 | 0:07:39 | |
If you're going to leave that to chance and to the decisions of | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
the European Commission, essentially, | 0:07:42 | 0:07:44 | |
and the decisions to the discretion of the people | 0:07:44 | 0:07:46 | |
from those countries, you could have an unsustainable model, | 0:07:46 | 0:07:50 | |
essentially. The only way to gain control of our borders again | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
is to leave the European Union. | 0:07:53 | 0:07:55 | |
Do you think that's the most...? APPLAUSE | 0:07:55 | 0:07:57 | |
You see, William Hague was saying that isn't the issue to decide on. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
-It is... -You think it is, do you? -I wouldn't say it's the main issue. | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
The main issue is our democracy, but it is an issue nevertheless | 0:08:04 | 0:08:07 | |
and I think it's wrong to undermine people's concerns about it | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
because communities have been affected by it. | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
-OK. EDDIE: -If communities are worried... -Sorry. | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
The woman there. Yes. | 0:08:16 | 0:08:17 | |
My whole problem is with the Out campaign as a whole. | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
As a young person, I'm just seeing, like, this scaremongering | 0:08:20 | 0:08:22 | |
about immigrants and why I should be voting Leave because of that. | 0:08:22 | 0:08:26 | |
Are there any other reasons why, | 0:08:26 | 0:08:27 | |
or is it all just solely on this problem of immigration, | 0:08:27 | 0:08:30 | |
which personally I haven't experienced? | 0:08:30 | 0:08:33 | |
Chris Grayling, you answer. APPLAUSE | 0:08:33 | 0:08:35 | |
No, it's not entirely about immigration, | 0:08:35 | 0:08:37 | |
it's about the future of our democracy, it's about our | 0:08:37 | 0:08:39 | |
trading relationships around the world, about being part | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
of a continent and a union that is being left behind economically. | 0:08:42 | 0:08:45 | |
It's an ever smaller part of the world economy. | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
There are opportunities out there we're not taking part in, | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
we're not taking advantage of. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:53 | |
But it is going to be a key part of the decision-making. | 0:08:53 | 0:08:55 | |
And why it matters to you is this. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
There are many, many people who come to the United Kingdom, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
who play a big role in our country. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
But if we carry on bringing to this country every year | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
the equivalent of a city the size of Newcastle upon Tyne... | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
Now, for all of us who live in the south-east, I live there too, | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
it is going to change the nature of the communities | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
in which we live. It's going to become more built-up, | 0:09:16 | 0:09:18 | |
it's going to become more congested, | 0:09:18 | 0:09:20 | |
there are going to be more pressures on public services. | 0:09:20 | 0:09:22 | |
If that's going to happen and if we're going to decide | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
that's the right thing for our economy, | 0:09:25 | 0:09:26 | |
I think at the very least you should have a say. | 0:09:26 | 0:09:29 | |
And right now, we, as your elected politicians, | 0:09:29 | 0:09:31 | |
have no ability to set limits on the number of people | 0:09:31 | 0:09:34 | |
who come and live and work here. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:36 | |
And the reason it makes a difference to you, | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
you're going to want somewhere to live, | 0:09:38 | 0:09:39 | |
in the future you're going to want to move up the housing ladder. | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
The more people there are here, the more challenging it is for us | 0:09:42 | 0:09:45 | |
to provide housing for the people who are here already, | 0:09:45 | 0:09:47 | |
-to provide opportunities for them. -Except that they put 20 billion | 0:09:47 | 0:09:50 | |
into the UK economy. | 0:09:50 | 0:09:52 | |
But, Chris Grayling, there's an interesting point here. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:56 | |
Your party said they would reduce immigration | 0:09:56 | 0:09:59 | |
to tens of thousands - maximum, therefore, 100,000. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
And then you say you can't control EU immigration. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
184,000 people are coming from outside the EU. | 0:10:05 | 0:10:08 | |
Even on the bit you CAN control, | 0:10:08 | 0:10:09 | |
you've done nothing to bring the numbers down. | 0:10:09 | 0:10:11 | |
-Why is that? -We need to do more... | 0:10:11 | 0:10:13 | |
No, but, why haven't you done anything? The people are asking... | 0:10:13 | 0:10:18 | |
You are saying, leave the EU, | 0:10:18 | 0:10:19 | |
that will solve that bit of the immigration but | 0:10:19 | 0:10:22 | |
what about the 184,000 | 0:10:22 | 0:10:23 | |
that you have had years to put right and you haven't? | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
-There's a job of work to do... -Ah, so you have failed? | 0:10:26 | 0:10:29 | |
We have clearly got more to do. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:31 | |
So why should anyone believe that you are going to | 0:10:31 | 0:10:33 | |
succeed by leaving the EU if you can't get the bit | 0:10:33 | 0:10:36 | |
you can control right? | 0:10:36 | 0:10:37 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
We've just passed an immigration act that will tighten up | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
the system for people from outside the European Union. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:47 | |
We can't do that for people inside the European Union, | 0:10:47 | 0:10:49 | |
we cannot even say that people who come and live | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
and work in the United Kingdom should have a job | 0:10:52 | 0:10:54 | |
before they come here. That is illegal under European law. | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
Surely we should have a say, surely we should be able to set some | 0:10:57 | 0:11:00 | |
limits - isn't that what being a democracy is all about? | 0:11:00 | 0:11:03 | |
-Can we become Norway? -I'll come to you in a moment. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
The man there - one, two, three, fourth row. | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
I don't think it's an issue. I think immigration can be the biggest | 0:11:09 | 0:11:13 | |
issue of this debate, simply because it affects so many other things. | 0:11:13 | 0:11:16 | |
We have, for example, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:17 | |
our green spaces seem to be disappearing as we go on, | 0:11:17 | 0:11:20 | |
our forests, it seems this is not just an economic issue | 0:11:20 | 0:11:23 | |
but an environmental one as well | 0:11:23 | 0:11:25 | |
and I would like to hear a bit more about | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
whether we can actually keep a sustainable population, sustainable | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
cities while we have...we're not hitting immigration targets. | 0:11:30 | 0:11:35 | |
Hold on, we'll keep that one for a moment. | 0:11:35 | 0:11:37 | |
The woman up there, on the right. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
I think it is quite right, we do need the immigrants, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
they make a good contribution to us. | 0:11:42 | 0:11:44 | |
But also, I think there is no reason why we shouldn't have | 0:11:44 | 0:11:48 | |
immigration, obviously, if we leave the EU, | 0:11:48 | 0:11:51 | |
because we can then have the people that we need and the people | 0:11:51 | 0:11:55 | |
that we want and I do think we would have more of a say in it. | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
I don't think very many people, | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
if any, are saying that we don't want any. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
You know, we need them, we want them. | 0:12:03 | 0:12:06 | |
Allison Pearson. | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
I don't think anyone is saying we don't want any. | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
We had 330,000 last year and the Treasury's own predictions | 0:12:13 | 0:12:18 | |
are that in 14 years' time it will be another 3.2 million. | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
These are vast figures. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:24 | |
One thing I really was offended by, that William Hague said, | 0:12:24 | 0:12:28 | |
and I feel some of these Remainers, very lofty, quite complacent | 0:12:28 | 0:12:32 | |
and arrogant, let's not let these little people bother us, | 0:12:32 | 0:12:36 | |
let's think globally. He used the phrase "parochial concerns". | 0:12:36 | 0:12:40 | |
"Don't vote on parochial concerns." | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
So let's think about some parochial concerns in my village. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
Can you get your child into the local primary school? | 0:12:46 | 0:12:49 | |
Can you get the sibling of your child into the same primary | 0:12:49 | 0:12:52 | |
school so you don't waste 20 minutes commuting on your working | 0:12:52 | 0:12:55 | |
day to another school? | 0:12:55 | 0:12:57 | |
Isn't that because there was a recession in 2008 | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
and austerity came in? | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
I haven't finished, I'm sorry. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:02 | |
I thought this was a debate. | 0:13:02 | 0:13:04 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:13:04 | 0:13:05 | |
We have had a lot of male voices and I am going to speak now. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
This is about families and mothers and children. | 0:13:10 | 0:13:14 | |
Half of all maternity units in England have | 0:13:15 | 0:13:19 | |
closed their doors in the last two years, for up to three days, because | 0:13:19 | 0:13:24 | |
the pressure on midwives and on the service in general is dreadful. | 0:13:24 | 0:13:29 | |
We had figures out this week about the NHS which were buried | 0:13:29 | 0:13:32 | |
because of Sarah Wollaston's defection. | 0:13:32 | 0:13:34 | |
But waiting times have gone up. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
Everywhere we look, we have to create, | 0:13:37 | 0:13:39 | |
by 2024, 900,000 school places, | 0:13:39 | 0:13:43 | |
lots of children can't get into their first choice | 0:13:43 | 0:13:46 | |
of secondary school or even their third choice of secondary school. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:49 | |
So this is not about keeping foreigners out, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
this is about our country, how many people can we sustain | 0:13:53 | 0:13:57 | |
and maintain the quality of life. I want to finish with one thing. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
Be quick because you made a long statement. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
Former Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks said, | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
if you have a well integrated country, it feels like a home. | 0:14:05 | 0:14:08 | |
If you have too many people coming in, he said, it feels like a hotel. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:13 | |
On 23rd of June we have to decide, is this our home or is it a hotel? | 0:14:13 | 0:14:18 | |
Eddie Izzard. | 0:14:18 | 0:14:20 | |
I just want to say to the people of Folkestone, | 0:14:26 | 0:14:29 | |
the people of Britain, let us not forget a recession | 0:14:29 | 0:14:31 | |
happened in 2008, a sub-prime capitalist recession. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:34 | |
It came in, the government decided to do austerity. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:37 | |
Austerity all across the country. | 0:14:37 | 0:14:39 | |
Don't let's make the EU a scapegoat where we just lash out at the EU. | 0:14:39 | 0:14:43 | |
There was a recession on and austerity is your policy. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:46 | |
That's why people are hurting. | 0:14:46 | 0:14:48 | |
The secretary general of the TUC and all major unions are saying, | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
let's stay in the European Union. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:53 | |
For God's sake, isn't it about humanity? | 0:14:53 | 0:14:55 | |
We are trying to move forward in humanity, we are | 0:14:55 | 0:14:57 | |
trying to head towards a world where everyone has a fair chance. | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
The United Kingdom came together | 0:15:00 | 0:15:01 | |
and that's what we're trying to do in the European Union. | 0:15:01 | 0:15:04 | |
Let's head forwards, not backwards. | 0:15:04 | 0:15:06 | |
Yeah, the biggest problem I find is we have a housing deficit. | 0:15:10 | 0:15:14 | |
We can't build enough houses. | 0:15:14 | 0:15:16 | |
A government, in a term, will set a figure, we can't reach it. | 0:15:16 | 0:15:20 | |
We're not getting anywhere near it. | 0:15:20 | 0:15:21 | |
We're talking about the mass immigration | 0:15:21 | 0:15:23 | |
that is coming forward which we shouldn't be looking at. | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
We should be looking at actually housing some of our former | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
veterans, for one example, | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
but we have got many families that are looking for property. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:35 | |
There is just not enough. | 0:15:35 | 0:15:36 | |
So, yes, immigration is a good thing | 0:15:36 | 0:15:38 | |
but mass immigration is not a good thing. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:40 | |
An Australian-style points system will be the fix of this country. | 0:15:40 | 0:15:44 | |
What about the woman in spectacles? Hold on, Nigel. | 0:15:45 | 0:15:50 | |
-The woman in the spectacles. -I completely agree with Eddie. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:54 | |
The issues around housing and health | 0:15:54 | 0:15:56 | |
-and the other systems aren't about immigration. -They are. | 0:15:56 | 0:16:00 | |
-People are resources. -ALL SPEAK AT ONCE | 0:16:00 | 0:16:02 | |
There are much more complicated reasons why... | 0:16:02 | 0:16:05 | |
Let her start her sentence again because everybody shouted you down. | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
Go on. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:09 | |
There are much more complicated reasons why those | 0:16:09 | 0:16:12 | |
systems are breaking down. | 0:16:12 | 0:16:14 | |
A deliberate attempt by the Tory government to | 0:16:14 | 0:16:17 | |
break down those systems | 0:16:17 | 0:16:18 | |
because it is part of the social welfare system. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:21 | |
It is an easy scapegoat, to blame immigrants. | 0:16:21 | 0:16:25 | |
It is a really important point and Eddie has just said it. | 0:16:25 | 0:16:28 | |
Let's ask ourselves the question, what is austerity? | 0:16:28 | 0:16:30 | |
Austerity is a simple concept, it is living within your means. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
We cannot borrow and borrow in perpetuity into the future | 0:16:33 | 0:16:37 | |
and pass those debts to our children. | 0:16:37 | 0:16:39 | |
Rich people caused the sub-prime market meltdown. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:41 | |
Poorer people are having to pay for it. | 0:16:41 | 0:16:43 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:16:43 | 0:16:45 | |
-Nigel, on the housing point. -A very odd place with this. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
The housing crisis has nothing to do with what happened to the banks | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
in 2008. It does have to do with demand and supply in a marketplace. | 0:16:54 | 0:16:59 | |
Think about this. | 0:16:59 | 0:17:01 | |
At the moment, we have to build one new house every four minutes, | 0:17:01 | 0:17:07 | |
night and day, just to cope with current levels of immigration. | 0:17:07 | 0:17:12 | |
I would say that is wholly unsustainable | 0:17:12 | 0:17:15 | |
and what we need to do is get the net figures | 0:17:15 | 0:17:18 | |
coming into Britain back to an acceptable number so that | 0:17:18 | 0:17:21 | |
our young people have got a chance of getting on the housing ladder. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:25 | |
I'll come to you... | 0:17:25 | 0:17:27 | |
Nigel, presumably the immediate effect, if Britain voted Brexit, | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
would be a rush of EU people coming here to get in | 0:17:32 | 0:17:36 | |
in the two years before Brexit had taken place. | 0:17:36 | 0:17:39 | |
That will depend how the British government handles all this. | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
-You can't stop it if you're in the EU, can you? -There are two factors. | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
One is, if we say the door's closing in X number of months, | 0:17:45 | 0:17:48 | |
there could be a flood. | 0:17:48 | 0:17:49 | |
The other is, the eurozone crisis is coming back in July of this year, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:53 | |
the third Greek bailout is on the agenda and I fear economic | 0:17:53 | 0:17:57 | |
collapse in the Mediterranean could lead to huge numbers. | 0:17:57 | 0:18:00 | |
The governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney, | 0:18:00 | 0:18:02 | |
says we are most probably going to go into recession. | 0:18:02 | 0:18:05 | |
Luckily, Eddie, we didn't listen to you, we didn't join the euro, | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
otherwise we'd be totally skint. | 0:18:08 | 0:18:09 | |
I didn't say join the euro, Mark Carney... | 0:18:09 | 0:18:11 | |
THEY ARGUE | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
-Eddie... -You still haven't explained why | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
you, as an immigrant family, are so anti-immigration. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:18 | |
Everyone here would like to hear. | 0:18:18 | 0:18:20 | |
The whole of the country would like to hear. | 0:18:20 | 0:18:22 | |
Because we want to control it. | 0:18:22 | 0:18:24 | |
I think we should make you change seats if you go on like this! | 0:18:24 | 0:18:28 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
You put us next to each other. | 0:18:30 | 0:18:31 | |
-I just... -No-one's fighting here. | 0:18:33 | 0:18:36 | |
No-one's getting out guns and arms, that is what | 0:18:36 | 0:18:38 | |
-the EU was set up to do... -Nigel... | 0:18:38 | 0:18:41 | |
Nigel, I want to suggest this, | 0:18:42 | 0:18:44 | |
you said that if a vote for Brexit happened, | 0:18:44 | 0:18:47 | |
there would be a two-year period when people could flood in. | 0:18:47 | 0:18:50 | |
I remember you talking about when Poles flooded | 0:18:50 | 0:18:52 | |
in when Poland was admitted to the EU. Hold on a second. | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
It could be argued that, actually, | 0:18:56 | 0:18:57 | |
you would have a steadier rate, a more controlled | 0:18:57 | 0:19:00 | |
rate of immigration into Britain by remaining in the EU | 0:19:00 | 0:19:03 | |
and simply relying on the spread of growth in the EU for it not | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
to overwhelm this country in the way that you say it will, | 0:19:06 | 0:19:08 | |
whereas Brexit might have the exact opposite effect. | 0:19:08 | 0:19:11 | |
Let's get one point clear. | 0:19:11 | 0:19:13 | |
As members of the European Union, there is no control | 0:19:13 | 0:19:15 | |
whatsoever over the numbers that come from the European Union | 0:19:15 | 0:19:19 | |
and that, I think, is why Mr Cameron | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
is getting so ratty in this campaign. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
You're a member for another two years. | 0:19:23 | 0:19:25 | |
He was elected saying he would reduce net migration to | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
tens of thousands a year. | 0:19:28 | 0:19:29 | |
-As an EU member, we have no control. -Hilary Benn... | 0:19:29 | 0:19:33 | |
IZZARD AND FARAGE ARGUE OVER EACH OTHER | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
Is there ever an answer, are you just going to politically avoid it? | 0:19:36 | 0:19:40 | |
Hilary Benn... | 0:19:40 | 0:19:41 | |
IZZARD AND FARAGE ARGUE | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
Shut up! | 0:19:45 | 0:19:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:46 | 0:19:48 | |
Hilary Benn. | 0:19:51 | 0:19:52 | |
I think there's a problem controlling the panel. | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
Anyway, look... | 0:19:56 | 0:19:57 | |
The point is this, what nobody understands is... | 0:19:57 | 0:20:01 | |
I mean, you talk, Allison, about the pressures, | 0:20:01 | 0:20:04 | |
but how does damaging the British economy help us...? | 0:20:04 | 0:20:08 | |
Nigel, you say, come on, a moment ago you said, | 0:20:08 | 0:20:13 | |
if the price we pay is a bit less in GDP, that is what you said... | 0:20:13 | 0:20:18 | |
-Because GDP... -WOMAN: -Shut up! | 0:20:18 | 0:20:21 | |
That's what you said. You mentioned the two years. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:25 | |
David, your question to Nigel was about the two years. | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
If we vote to leave, the clock starts ticking on two years. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:31 | |
If we haven't negotiated a new trading arrangement with the | 0:20:31 | 0:20:33 | |
European Union in two years - you said this yourself, Nigel - | 0:20:33 | 0:20:37 | |
we revert to World Trade Organisation terms. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:40 | |
Do you know what that means? | 0:20:40 | 0:20:41 | |
Every day we export nearly 2,000 cars to Europe, | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
they enter Europe tariff-free. | 0:20:44 | 0:20:46 | |
When America and Japan try to sell to Europe they pay a 10% tariff. | 0:20:46 | 0:20:51 | |
We would start paying that if we exited and were on WTO terms. | 0:20:51 | 0:20:56 | |
Do you know what the tariff would be on fruit? It would be 22%. | 0:20:56 | 0:21:02 | |
-Damaging our economy... -ALL TALK AT ONCE | 0:21:02 | 0:21:05 | |
All right, everybody. Calm down, everybody. Calm down. | 0:21:05 | 0:21:09 | |
Quieten down, please, panel, because otherwise the audience will get | 0:21:09 | 0:21:13 | |
so cross they'll walk out! | 0:21:13 | 0:21:14 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:21:14 | 0:21:16 | |
They'll do a Brexit! | 0:21:16 | 0:21:18 | |
I would ask you to take it in turns so everybody can hear what you say. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:23 | |
Let's go to a second question, about the economy, which is what | 0:21:23 | 0:21:27 | |
you've been gradually coming around to. Before I do that, | 0:21:27 | 0:21:29 | |
I want to tell the audience at home, | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
we have three Question Times during the next week. | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
Michael Gove is on his own against the audience in Nottingham - | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
or with, I should say. | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
There is a regular Thursday Question Time in York, | 0:21:41 | 0:21:44 | |
and there's another Question Time with David Cameron | 0:21:44 | 0:21:46 | |
from Milton Keynes on Sunday. | 0:21:46 | 0:21:49 | |
Then there is a week's pause while we vote | 0:21:49 | 0:21:53 | |
and then we are in Preston on June 30th. | 0:21:53 | 0:21:56 | |
If you want to come to any of those programmes | 0:21:56 | 0:21:58 | |
the details are on the screen. | 0:21:58 | 0:22:00 | |
Let's try and have a civilised debate and go on to a question | 0:22:00 | 0:22:04 | |
from Dean Onslow. | 0:22:04 | 0:22:06 | |
The eurozone seems to be lurching from one economic crisis to another. | 0:22:06 | 0:22:10 | |
Should we not distance ourselves from future economic risk? | 0:22:10 | 0:22:15 | |
The eurozone lurching from one economic crisis to another. | 0:22:15 | 0:22:19 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
Hilary Benn, it picks up the point you were making when I stopped you, | 0:22:21 | 0:22:24 | |
so you can pick this question up. | 0:22:24 | 0:22:26 | |
Thanks very much. The most important point | 0:22:26 | 0:22:28 | |
is we are not in the euro. | 0:22:28 | 0:22:30 | |
We're not. It was the last Labour government that decided | 0:22:30 | 0:22:33 | |
we're not going to join the euro | 0:22:33 | 0:22:34 | |
and I can see no circumstances in which we ever would. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
So, yes, there are problems for the eurozone, | 0:22:37 | 0:22:40 | |
but it is a demonstration of our sovereignty that we did not join. | 0:22:40 | 0:22:45 | |
We are not in the Schengen free passport area, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:47 | |
we are not affected by ever-closer union. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:50 | |
We are the fifth strongest economy in the world, but, Chris, | 0:22:50 | 0:22:55 | |
you decried the European market, you said it was fading and falling. | 0:22:55 | 0:23:00 | |
44% of our exports go to the EU. | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
It is our biggest customer. | 0:23:04 | 0:23:06 | |
The idea that if we walk away from Europe and tried to ring them up | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
and say, "Can you give us a good deal?" | 0:23:10 | 0:23:13 | |
Do we think France and Germany would give us a better deal outside | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
than they give themselves inside the EU? | 0:23:16 | 0:23:20 | |
-I don't think so. -What about the damage that's been done, though? | 0:23:20 | 0:23:23 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:23 | 0:23:25 | |
Nigel Farage referred to it, and I think Chris did, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
the damage that's being done now within Europe | 0:23:28 | 0:23:31 | |
by the eurozone countries and the problems they have, | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
are you saying that will have no impact at all on Britain | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
and we wouldn't therefore be better trying it outside? | 0:23:37 | 0:23:40 | |
It is having a big impact on the European countries | 0:23:40 | 0:23:43 | |
affected by high levels of unemployment, | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
that is the result of them having chosen to join the eurozone. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:50 | |
But coming out, not only do we have to renegotiate our trade deal | 0:23:50 | 0:23:54 | |
with Europe, we have to renegotiate our trade deal | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
with 53 other countries that we have deals with currently - | 0:23:56 | 0:24:01 | |
precisely because we are part of the largest single market in the world. | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
That is why all of the economists and studies have said | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
we will be worse off, | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
and I don't see how that helps the country one little bit. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:24:14 | 0:24:16 | |
The key point that you are missing when you talk about our trade | 0:24:18 | 0:24:22 | |
with the EU is that we buy far more from them | 0:24:22 | 0:24:25 | |
than they buy from us. | 0:24:25 | 0:24:27 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
We have the most monumental trade deficit with the EU. | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
In what world will the German government say to its car-makers, | 0:24:33 | 0:24:38 | |
who sell a million cars a year in the UK, | 0:24:38 | 0:24:41 | |
"We're going to restrict your access to your most important market?" | 0:24:41 | 0:24:44 | |
In what world are the French government say to the French | 0:24:44 | 0:24:47 | |
farmers, and down on the south coast you know how they can get stroppy | 0:24:47 | 0:24:51 | |
and blockade ports and the rest, in what world are the French government | 0:24:51 | 0:24:55 | |
going to say to their farmers, | 0:24:55 | 0:24:56 | |
"We're going to put the price of your product in the UK up | 0:24:56 | 0:24:59 | |
"so you don't sell there any more?" | 0:24:59 | 0:25:01 | |
It's not going to happen. We, in the UK, outside the EU, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:05 | |
will represent 17% of the EU's exports. Those of you | 0:25:05 | 0:25:09 | |
in the audience in business, in what world would you go to war | 0:25:09 | 0:25:12 | |
with your biggest customer? It's not going to happen. | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
Are you saying there'll be no tariffs raised against Britain | 0:25:15 | 0:25:18 | |
exporting to Europe? | 0:25:18 | 0:25:20 | |
-Why would the Europeans...? -Cos I heard Nigel Farage say... | 0:25:20 | 0:25:24 | |
You said 5% might happen, and it was cheaper than paying into the EU. | 0:25:24 | 0:25:28 | |
But the reason we would have a free trade agreement is they will have to | 0:25:28 | 0:25:31 | |
accept putting tariffs on the goods they sell to us, | 0:25:31 | 0:25:34 | |
and we buy more from them than they buy from us, | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
and it will cost EU jobs if they damage their access to our market, | 0:25:37 | 0:25:41 | |
which is why they won't do it. | 0:25:41 | 0:25:43 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:25:43 | 0:25:48 | |
Nigel Farage, you seem to think there is a possibility of tariffs | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
being raised. You said 5%. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
What I'm saying is this, | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
what did we join just over 40 years ago and why did we join it? | 0:25:56 | 0:26:00 | |
We joined what was sold as a common market. | 0:26:00 | 0:26:03 | |
Anybody here aged over 58 - though they were warned by Hilary's dad | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
that it was a con job, and he was right - we joined a common market. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:13 | |
My mum and dad voted for tariff-free access. | 0:26:13 | 0:26:16 | |
That was the point, a post-war world, | 0:26:16 | 0:26:18 | |
a post-Wall Street crash world, of very, very high barriers, | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
particularly the manufactured goods being sold between countries. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:25 | |
So we signed up to get rid of tariffs, and that was great. | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
In the short-term there is a strong argument to say the common market | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
was good for the British economy. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
Can you come to the question I put to you? | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
However... However... However... | 0:26:34 | 0:26:37 | |
the argument that is now being made by our two Remain panellists... | 0:26:37 | 0:26:42 | |
-EDDIE: -Out of five. | 0:26:42 | 0:26:43 | |
Well, just shows you how things have moved on. In the old days | 0:26:43 | 0:26:46 | |
it was only me, so I'm delighted to have some company! | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
LAUGHTER AND CHEERING | 0:26:49 | 0:26:53 | |
Why don't you answer that question about your family? | 0:26:53 | 0:26:55 | |
Why aren't you very positive about immigrants? | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
I think you're beginning to bore people with this, I really do. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:00 | |
You've never answered it. | 0:27:00 | 0:27:02 | |
If nobody brings you to task... | 0:27:02 | 0:27:04 | |
-You never answer the question, you avoided. -Eddie... Eddie... | 0:27:04 | 0:27:08 | |
We believe in sensible, controlled immigration, all right? | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
-You never answered the question. -Can we please not hear that again? | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
You're from an immigrant family, | 0:27:14 | 0:27:16 | |
you just don't care about immigrants. | 0:27:16 | 0:27:18 | |
-That really is childish. -No, that's you, that's your family. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:22 | |
Nigel, answer the question. | 0:27:22 | 0:27:24 | |
-Right, OK. -I want to repeat it. | 0:27:24 | 0:27:28 | |
Are you saying there might be 5% tariffs on British exports? | 0:27:28 | 0:27:32 | |
We joined for tariff-free access to the European market, | 0:27:32 | 0:27:36 | |
40 years on we have tariff-free access to the single market | 0:27:36 | 0:27:39 | |
in a world where tariffs that were up there are now down there. | 0:27:39 | 0:27:43 | |
The costs of being part of the single market cartel | 0:27:43 | 0:27:47 | |
far outweigh any savings from tariffs. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
Even if tariffs were put on our goods, the total cost would be | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
lower than our net contribution. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:56 | |
So my argument is the worst-case scenario is better than | 0:27:56 | 0:28:01 | |
where we are today, and as Chris says, the German car manufacturers | 0:28:01 | 0:28:05 | |
will go on selling their cars in this country | 0:28:05 | 0:28:08 | |
and I am going to go on drinking French wine and we'll go on | 0:28:08 | 0:28:11 | |
doing business with each other. | 0:28:11 | 0:28:13 | |
The man up there at the back. | 0:28:13 | 0:28:15 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:28:15 | 0:28:18 | |
It's not actually about "is it 1% of GDP?" | 0:28:18 | 0:28:22 | |
it's actually how do you as a country want to govern yourself, | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
and do you want to tie yourself to a certain number of other countries | 0:28:26 | 0:28:30 | |
that happen to be nearby, or do you want to trade with the world? | 0:28:30 | 0:28:34 | |
We can do both. | 0:28:34 | 0:28:37 | |
The truth, sir, the truth is we can do both. | 0:28:37 | 0:28:40 | |
The idea we are facing a choice between either trading with Europe | 0:28:40 | 0:28:43 | |
and the rest of the world... In the last five years, | 0:28:43 | 0:28:45 | |
what's happened to our exports to China? They have doubled. | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
What's happened to our trade with Commonwealth countries? | 0:28:48 | 0:28:50 | |
It's gone up enormously. It is not a competition between the two. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:54 | |
Nigel said even if there were tariffs then that would be | 0:28:54 | 0:28:58 | |
more than compensated for by the contribution | 0:28:58 | 0:29:01 | |
we wouldn't have to make to the budget. | 0:29:01 | 0:29:03 | |
Are you suggesting, Nigel, that you would use that money to compensate | 0:29:03 | 0:29:07 | |
businesses in Britain that were facing the cost of a tariff? | 0:29:07 | 0:29:10 | |
-Is that your policy? -It isn't just about businesses, | 0:29:10 | 0:29:12 | |
it's about consumers. | 0:29:12 | 0:29:14 | |
Why don't you come clean with the public - when they buy goods | 0:29:14 | 0:29:17 | |
from outside the EU, if you buy a Japanese motor car, | 0:29:17 | 0:29:21 | |
you pay a 10% tariff. If you buy kids shoes for school, | 0:29:21 | 0:29:25 | |
you pay a 17% tariff if they come from outside the EU. | 0:29:25 | 0:29:28 | |
What we've done here, we've inextricably linked ourselves, | 0:29:28 | 0:29:31 | |
economically, to this fortress Europe idea. | 0:29:31 | 0:29:34 | |
And what I want is us to be a global trading nation | 0:29:34 | 0:29:38 | |
with cheaper prices for our consumers. | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE | 0:29:41 | 0:29:43 | |
All right, all right, wait. The woman there, you had your hand up. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
Mr Benn said it's not about sovereignty - | 0:29:46 | 0:29:48 | |
-it is about sovereignty. -I didn't say that. -It's about democracy. | 0:29:48 | 0:29:52 | |
I didn't say it was about sovereignty. I didn't say that. | 0:29:52 | 0:29:55 | |
It is about our crown waters, our fishing industry, our farmers, | 0:29:55 | 0:30:00 | |
who get subsidised to put their land aside | 0:30:00 | 0:30:05 | |
so that they don't make the food that we can eat. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
Our fishing industry, they were given subsidies | 0:30:08 | 0:30:12 | |
to burn their boats so that | 0:30:12 | 0:30:14 | |
the fishing quotas could be given elsewhere. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:30:17 | 0:30:18 | |
Hang on, I'll come to you in a minute. | 0:30:18 | 0:30:20 | |
I know you are 50-50 Remain... | 0:30:20 | 0:30:24 | |
Or pretty well 50-50 and 50-50 exit. | 0:30:24 | 0:30:28 | |
I want to hear from some Remainers | 0:30:28 | 0:30:31 | |
who believe what is happening is... | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
You, yes, indeed. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:35 | |
I'm not British citizen and this really, really scares me. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:39 | |
I've lived here for a long time | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
and what I hear tonight actually worries and scares me. | 0:30:41 | 0:30:44 | |
The EU was created originally by six countries after | 0:30:44 | 0:30:49 | |
the war for peace and stability. | 0:30:49 | 0:30:52 | |
Where is that now? | 0:30:52 | 0:30:54 | |
UK joined later, in '73, hopefully for the same principles. | 0:30:55 | 0:31:00 | |
Where are those principles tonight? | 0:31:00 | 0:31:03 | |
Where is your search for stability? | 0:31:03 | 0:31:06 | |
For... I don't know. | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
Yeah, to keep those ideas going? | 0:31:09 | 0:31:12 | |
What I've heard tonight, actually, | 0:31:12 | 0:31:14 | |
why I'm scared now is what I've heard tonight | 0:31:14 | 0:31:16 | |
is certain things that we're told were said in 1933 in Germany. | 0:31:16 | 0:31:22 | |
We're not far off. | 0:31:22 | 0:31:24 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:31:24 | 0:31:26 | |
Allison Pearson. | 0:31:26 | 0:31:28 | |
..all about immigration, and that really scares me | 0:31:28 | 0:31:32 | |
because it's not about that. | 0:31:32 | 0:31:35 | |
Those were used in 1933 in Nazi Germany. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:40 | |
-Allison. -It's not the United Kingdom that's doing this. -Who's doing it? | 0:31:40 | 0:31:45 | |
Can you let Allison answer? | 0:31:45 | 0:31:47 | |
-So, it's the European Union, it's Brussels. -No. -No, it is Brussels | 0:31:47 | 0:31:51 | |
because they are possessed by this ideal, | 0:31:51 | 0:31:54 | |
since the eurozone was created. | 0:31:54 | 0:31:55 | |
If we look across Europe, Europe is in a terrible economic mess. | 0:31:55 | 0:32:00 | |
And Eddie used the word "Humanity" earlier. The men, | 0:32:00 | 0:32:04 | |
the rich, white, old men, white men | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
who run Brussels have imposed austerity and terrible conditions. | 0:32:07 | 0:32:13 | |
Southern Europe, there are shortages of medicine... | 0:32:13 | 0:32:17 | |
-It's what the Tory government... -..it's incredibly high. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:21 | |
They voted to come back in. | 0:32:21 | 0:32:23 | |
So this idea of peace and stability, | 0:32:23 | 0:32:26 | |
if you look across Europe, | 0:32:26 | 0:32:27 | |
you see lots of countries going to the far right, | 0:32:27 | 0:32:31 | |
going to the far left. | 0:32:31 | 0:32:32 | |
This is not caused by the UK, this is caused by Brussels, | 0:32:32 | 0:32:36 | |
which has not listened to the will of the European people. | 0:32:36 | 0:32:40 | |
And in 2005, | 0:32:40 | 0:32:43 | |
France and the Netherlands voted on the European constitution | 0:32:43 | 0:32:46 | |
and both countries resoundingly rejected the European constitution. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:51 | |
And Brussels didn't listen. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:54 | |
They didn't listen when the Greeks had a referendum and said, | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
"Please, do not impose more austerity on us." | 0:32:56 | 0:33:00 | |
Who is Brussels? | 0:33:00 | 0:33:03 | |
I'm sorry, but saying Brussels is not right because who is Brussels? | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
-We are all Brussels. -No! -Yes, we are. -No, we are not! | 0:33:08 | 0:33:12 | |
-THEY SHOUT OVER EACH OTHER -Yes, we are. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
All right, can we have...? | 0:33:16 | 0:33:19 | |
Eddie Izzard and Nigel, if you would not interrupt him, | 0:33:19 | 0:33:23 | |
he promises not to interrupt you next time. | 0:33:23 | 0:33:25 | |
It's a deal. | 0:33:25 | 0:33:27 | |
We'll answer that question of you later. | 0:33:27 | 0:33:29 | |
Let us not forget, | 0:33:32 | 0:33:34 | |
we have to head towards a world where all people have a fair chance. | 0:33:34 | 0:33:37 | |
We have to head in that direction. | 0:33:37 | 0:33:39 | |
Because otherwise despair is the fuel of terrorism, | 0:33:39 | 0:33:41 | |
hope is the fuel of civilisation. | 0:33:41 | 0:33:43 | |
We've got to be putting hope into the world. | 0:33:43 | 0:33:45 | |
The United Kingdom, we used to kill each other in all sorts of wars | 0:33:45 | 0:33:48 | |
and we gradually came together, to live together | 0:33:48 | 0:33:50 | |
and work together in some shape or form. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:52 | |
What that form is Scotland is still deciding, | 0:33:52 | 0:33:54 | |
but they will peel off if there is Brexit. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:55 | |
They will be going. And Wales could well be going. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
They won't. You sure, Allison? You're sure? How can you be sure? | 0:33:58 | 0:34:02 | |
-They can't afford to go. -They will do that, they will wait their time | 0:34:02 | 0:34:05 | |
and then they will peel off. But the point is that | 0:34:05 | 0:34:07 | |
what we're doing in Europe is the hardest thing that's ever been done. | 0:34:07 | 0:34:10 | |
No continent has ever done this before. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:12 | |
This is not the American model. | 0:34:12 | 0:34:14 | |
2,500 years of murder, from Alexander The Great | 0:34:14 | 0:34:16 | |
to World War II, and then we said, "Let's not do it again," | 0:34:16 | 0:34:18 | |
and it's not scaremongering, cos World War I | 0:34:18 | 0:34:20 | |
was not called World War I, it was called the Great War, | 0:34:20 | 0:34:23 | |
"the war to end all wars". And then there was another one. | 0:34:23 | 0:34:25 | |
So that's why we set up the European Union in the first place. | 0:34:25 | 0:34:28 | |
Whatever name it was. We were trying to make sure... | 0:34:28 | 0:34:30 | |
We were reaching out like this, and not like this. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
And I feel the Brexiters are all doing this, and I'm doing this. | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
That's why I'm running marathons, that's why I'm transgender - | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
I came out 31 years ago - I'm trying to be brave, | 0:34:38 | 0:34:40 | |
I'm touring France in French, Germany in German. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:42 | |
These are positive things. I was there on D-Day, playing the shows, | 0:34:42 | 0:34:45 | |
celebrating 72 years of peace | 0:34:45 | 0:34:46 | |
and commemorating people who fell on that day. | 0:34:46 | 0:34:48 | |
-And what do you say to the question Dean Onslow asked? -That one? | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
No, Dean Onslow's question was that the eurozone lurches | 0:34:51 | 0:34:54 | |
from one economic crisis to another, shouldn't we keep separate from it? | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
There was a recession. There was a recession on. | 0:34:57 | 0:34:59 | |
Did we just all lose memories? Remember that recession happened? | 0:34:59 | 0:35:03 | |
-And it goes in there, and we're trying to make it work. -All right. | 0:35:03 | 0:35:06 | |
We are tried to make it work. We've got head forwards and upwards. | 0:35:06 | 0:35:08 | |
OK, Chris Grayling. I'll come to you in a moment. Chris Grayling. | 0:35:08 | 0:35:11 | |
Well, look, my view, very straightforwardly, on this | 0:35:11 | 0:35:14 | |
is that the European Union is being left behind. | 0:35:14 | 0:35:17 | |
It is a diminishing share of the world economy. If you look at where | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
the exciting developments are happening around the world, | 0:35:20 | 0:35:22 | |
they are in Asia, in the Americas, | 0:35:22 | 0:35:24 | |
they're actually in the Commonwealth. It is a nonsense | 0:35:24 | 0:35:26 | |
that we, as the principal country, | 0:35:26 | 0:35:28 | |
the lead country in the Commonwealth, | 0:35:28 | 0:35:30 | |
cannot even negotiate a free trade agreement | 0:35:30 | 0:35:32 | |
with our own Commonwealth partners. | 0:35:32 | 0:35:33 | |
The reality is that we will carry on... | 0:35:33 | 0:35:36 | |
MUTED APPLAUSE | 0:35:36 | 0:35:38 | |
We will carry on trading with the rest of Europe, as we do now, | 0:35:39 | 0:35:42 | |
because we buy more from them than they buy from us. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:44 | |
But it is a reality that we have a trade surplus | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
with the rest of the world, and a huge deficit in Europe. | 0:35:46 | 0:35:49 | |
The opportunities are elsewhere. | 0:35:49 | 0:35:50 | |
Let us not shut ourselves from them | 0:35:50 | 0:35:52 | |
-in an economic bloc that is going backwards. -All right. | 0:35:52 | 0:35:55 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:35:55 | 0:35:58 | |
I seem to be a rare beast in the room - I haven't made my decision. | 0:35:59 | 0:36:03 | |
I've got my postal vote with me in my handbag. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:05 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:36:05 | 0:36:06 | |
And perhaps I'm the only one that's not being fought at | 0:36:06 | 0:36:09 | |
from both sides. But what I actually want you to do | 0:36:09 | 0:36:12 | |
is give me clear guidance about what could make a difference to my life, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:15 | |
and what could make a difference to me and my grandchildren | 0:36:15 | 0:36:18 | |
and help me put a cross in the box tonight. | 0:36:18 | 0:36:20 | |
And do you not feel you get this from hearing people talk about it? | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
-We're trying. -I've got... -We are trying. | 0:36:23 | 0:36:26 | |
I spend my time thinking, "Is that a plausible comment they just made? | 0:36:26 | 0:36:29 | |
"Is that feasible? Is that viable? | 0:36:29 | 0:36:30 | |
"Is there a competent and confident leadership after the referendum?" | 0:36:30 | 0:36:35 | |
I regret, at present, I do not know, | 0:36:35 | 0:36:38 | |
and it may be a tactical vote or purely, at the last minute, | 0:36:38 | 0:36:41 | |
close my eyes. And I feel utterly ashamed to say | 0:36:41 | 0:36:44 | |
that I cannot make my mind up. And I want you to help me. | 0:36:44 | 0:36:47 | |
-All right. -So I think the key thing that you should bear in mind... | 0:36:47 | 0:36:50 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:36:50 | 0:36:51 | |
..on June the 23rd... We live in a country that has given away, | 0:36:51 | 0:36:56 | |
and is continuing to give away, and will carry on giving away | 0:36:56 | 0:36:58 | |
more and more of its ability to govern itself. | 0:36:58 | 0:37:01 | |
And I want my children to live their life in a country, | 0:37:01 | 0:37:03 | |
and I hope you want your children and grandchildren | 0:37:03 | 0:37:06 | |
to live in a country that looks after its own national interests, | 0:37:06 | 0:37:08 | |
is free to take decisions in its own national interest, | 0:37:08 | 0:37:11 | |
is not in a place where most of its laws are made in another place, | 0:37:11 | 0:37:15 | |
and where we have no control over things | 0:37:15 | 0:37:17 | |
that make a material difference to all of our lives. | 0:37:17 | 0:37:20 | |
Sorry, would you...? | 0:37:20 | 0:37:21 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:37:21 | 0:37:24 | |
Would you agree...? Would you agree, in talking to that woman, | 0:37:24 | 0:37:27 | |
that the important thing in this is that the information given | 0:37:27 | 0:37:30 | |
should be as near as possible accurate, as far as you know? | 0:37:30 | 0:37:34 | |
Well, we should try and explain the issues as carefully as we can. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
For our different perspectives tonight, | 0:37:37 | 0:37:39 | |
we're all trying to explain the issues as we see them. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:41 | |
-We just disagree. -All right. | 0:37:41 | 0:37:42 | |
Polly Radcliffe, let's have your question, then. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:45 | |
Given Sarah Wollaston's statement that it simply isn't true | 0:37:45 | 0:37:48 | |
that Brexit will unlock £350 million a week, | 0:37:48 | 0:37:52 | |
can we believe a word the Leave camp say? | 0:37:52 | 0:37:55 | |
And you'll know that the 350 million a week claim, | 0:37:55 | 0:37:59 | |
all of which, apparently, according to the commercial | 0:37:59 | 0:38:01 | |
that I saw on television just half an hour ago, | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
is all going to be spent on the NHS, or can all be spent on the NHS. | 0:38:04 | 0:38:07 | |
Some people think and say this simply isn't true. | 0:38:07 | 0:38:10 | |
Perhaps you should answer that. | 0:38:10 | 0:38:12 | |
Well, let me explain what the number is. It is a gross figure, | 0:38:12 | 0:38:15 | |
it is the official Office Of National Statistics figure | 0:38:15 | 0:38:18 | |
for our weekly contribution to the European Union, | 0:38:18 | 0:38:20 | |
Table 9.9 of the ONS Pink Book 2014. | 0:38:20 | 0:38:23 | |
We get about half of that money back, with strings attached, | 0:38:23 | 0:38:26 | |
in the form of grants that are decided in Brussels, | 0:38:26 | 0:38:29 | |
and in the form of a rebate which is constantly | 0:38:29 | 0:38:31 | |
-being argued about by European partners. -Sorry, what are...? | 0:38:31 | 0:38:33 | |
What are the strings attached to the rebate? | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
The rebate is money that doesn't go there. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
Well, the rebate is calculated, varies year by year... | 0:38:38 | 0:38:40 | |
What are the strings attached to it? | 0:38:40 | 0:38:42 | |
It's calculated a year later and netted against... | 0:38:42 | 0:38:44 | |
-But the Treasury gets it. -Yes, the Treasury gets it. | 0:38:44 | 0:38:46 | |
I don't understand exactly. You get £350 million a week you pay, | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
95 million a week goes back to the Treasury. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:52 | |
So how can that be spent on the NHS? | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
-They can spend it now if they want to. -Well, can I finish? | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
The other half, which is about £10 billion a year | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
is money that is spent elsewhere in Europe. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:02 | |
That is money that could be spent on our priorities here. | 0:39:02 | 0:39:04 | |
We have said in the campaign, | 0:39:04 | 0:39:06 | |
we think we'd be able to release £100 million a week, | 0:39:06 | 0:39:08 | |
£5 billion a year extra in the health service. | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
As well as having money spare to remove VAT on fuel bills, | 0:39:11 | 0:39:15 | |
and do some other things. | 0:39:15 | 0:39:17 | |
Do you regret...? Do you regret that 350 million, | 0:39:17 | 0:39:20 | |
which has been roundly criticised by people? | 0:39:20 | 0:39:22 | |
It's the overall figure. If you look at a job advert... | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
If I asked for £100 from you and I say, "Give me £100, Chris," | 0:39:25 | 0:39:29 | |
and you give me £100. | 0:39:29 | 0:39:30 | |
"Actually, I don't need that 100, I'll give you 25 back." | 0:39:30 | 0:39:32 | |
Have you given me 75, or have you given me 100? | 0:39:32 | 0:39:35 | |
If you apply for a job... | 0:39:35 | 0:39:36 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:39:36 | 0:39:38 | |
If you apply for a job | 0:39:41 | 0:39:43 | |
and the salary in that job is set out, it doesn't say, | 0:39:43 | 0:39:45 | |
"£30,000, from which we will net off your National Insurance, | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
"we'll take off money for your income tax, | 0:39:48 | 0:39:50 | |
"and by the way you're a member of the pension scheme, | 0:39:50 | 0:39:52 | |
"so it's actually £23,000." | 0:39:52 | 0:39:54 | |
The advert says, "The salary is £30,000 a year." | 0:39:54 | 0:39:57 | |
Our contribution to the European Union | 0:39:57 | 0:39:59 | |
is £350 million a week, | 0:39:59 | 0:40:00 | |
of which we get some back and some we don't get back. | 0:40:00 | 0:40:03 | |
-Hilary Benn. -Well, Chris, you've struggled to try and explain away | 0:40:03 | 0:40:07 | |
what is clearly untrue and, look, for me, when the chair... | 0:40:07 | 0:40:10 | |
When the chair... | 0:40:10 | 0:40:11 | |
A Conservative MP, who is the chair of the Health Select Committee, | 0:40:11 | 0:40:15 | |
as Sarah Wollaston did yesterday, comes out and says, | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
"I can no longer go along with this because it simply isn't true," | 0:40:18 | 0:40:21 | |
that tells us something about the character of the Leave campaign. | 0:40:21 | 0:40:25 | |
But I also wanted to respond to the point that you made, madam, | 0:40:25 | 0:40:28 | |
in looking for guidance as to how to vote, because, | 0:40:28 | 0:40:30 | |
look, I am a father of four kids and a grandfather. | 0:40:30 | 0:40:33 | |
For me, this is a decision about the future for our children | 0:40:33 | 0:40:36 | |
-and our grandchildren. -Everybody always says that. -And I...! | 0:40:36 | 0:40:38 | |
Well, I'm going to say it. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:40 | |
Everybody's got children and grandchildren. Not so special. | 0:40:40 | 0:40:42 | |
The point I'm going to make, David, I know it's nothing special. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:45 | |
-LAUGHTER -I know it's nothing special, | 0:40:45 | 0:40:48 | |
but Chris is absolutely wrong | 0:40:48 | 0:40:50 | |
when he says that the way to safeguard our future | 0:40:50 | 0:40:54 | |
is to isolate ourselves from 27 of our nearest neighbours. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:58 | |
If we're going to deal with the challenges we face in this century, | 0:40:58 | 0:41:01 | |
and help our children and our grandchildren to do that, | 0:41:01 | 0:41:04 | |
we have to work in collaboration with our neighbours | 0:41:04 | 0:41:06 | |
to tackle climate change, the threats from terrorism. | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
And I was really sorry, Allison, | 0:41:10 | 0:41:12 | |
when the Brussels bombings were taking place, | 0:41:12 | 0:41:14 | |
you tweeted about Brexit, because I tell you, | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
when our neighbours are being blown up by terrorists, | 0:41:17 | 0:41:20 | |
we should stand in solidarity with them, we should not run away. | 0:41:20 | 0:41:23 | |
Because we are stronger by doing so together. | 0:41:23 | 0:41:26 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:41:26 | 0:41:28 | |
Sorry, what did she tweet? What did she tweet? | 0:41:28 | 0:41:30 | |
You made a reference to Brexit | 0:41:30 | 0:41:32 | |
in that rather infamous tweet, Allison, didn't you? | 0:41:32 | 0:41:34 | |
-Yes, you did. -I think that when we have... | 0:41:34 | 0:41:37 | |
Other countries have very weak security. | 0:41:37 | 0:41:40 | |
What happens is that people from those countries, | 0:41:40 | 0:41:43 | |
because they are in the EU, can come to our country. | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
What did you say in the tweet, sorry, for those who don't know? | 0:41:46 | 0:41:49 | |
I said that Brussels, which is the capital of the EU, has just seen... | 0:41:49 | 0:41:54 | |
This de facto capital of the EU is also this nest of jihadists. | 0:41:54 | 0:41:58 | |
That's what I said. | 0:41:58 | 0:41:59 | |
-We have also just seen recently... -MURMURING | 0:41:59 | 0:42:01 | |
We are British people. We don't run and hide from stuff like this. | 0:42:01 | 0:42:05 | |
We didn't in the '30s, we're not going to now. | 0:42:05 | 0:42:07 | |
We should stand shoulder to shoulder with the Belgians and the French. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:10 | |
Recently, we have found out that two of the ringleaders | 0:42:10 | 0:42:13 | |
of the Paris bombing and the Brussels atrocities | 0:42:13 | 0:42:16 | |
had come to the West Midlands | 0:42:16 | 0:42:17 | |
and had come through Kent, I think, actually. | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
-So we are not safe about this. -So Brexit would make us safer? | 0:42:20 | 0:42:23 | |
-Brexit would make us safer, yes. Absolutely. -How? How? | 0:42:23 | 0:42:26 | |
-How? -How? -Because they wouldn't have one of these, Hilary. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:29 | |
They wouldn't have a European Union passport | 0:42:29 | 0:42:31 | |
and be able to travel freely - that's the point. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
-What makes us safer... -That's the point. | 0:42:34 | 0:42:36 | |
What makes us safer is cooperating with our neighbours | 0:42:36 | 0:42:39 | |
to exchange information... | 0:42:39 | 0:42:41 | |
to support our security services and the police. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:43 | |
-That's what will make us safer. -OK... -Not running away. | 0:42:43 | 0:42:46 | |
Let's hear from some more members of our lively audience. | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
You, sir, with spectacles on there. That's you, yes. | 0:42:48 | 0:42:51 | |
Just on this point of the 350 million figure. | 0:42:51 | 0:42:54 | |
The real, I think, problem that's been covered up there | 0:42:54 | 0:42:57 | |
is, actually, that we can't put that money back into the NHS | 0:42:57 | 0:43:00 | |
-or anywhere else straight away, because... -Yeah, exactly. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
Well, no, actually. You'd lose... | 0:43:03 | 0:43:05 | |
That money is offset by what you'd lose in GDP | 0:43:05 | 0:43:08 | |
and what you'd lose in tax returns from immigration. | 0:43:08 | 0:43:11 | |
So, actually, the gain you get is offset by what you do if you leave. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:14 | |
-Can I...? -Briefly. -Just quickly, exactly what you said. | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
The 350 million, they give us the half back of our money, | 0:43:18 | 0:43:22 | |
but they decide where it goes. | 0:43:22 | 0:43:24 | |
-So, for example... -They don't decide where the rebate goes. | 0:43:24 | 0:43:26 | |
-They absolutely decide where it goes. -Where the rebate goes? | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
-Yes, they... -They don't say where to spend it. -They do. | 0:43:29 | 0:43:32 | |
-It goes to the Treasury. -It doesn't. -Really? What do they say? -No. | 0:43:32 | 0:43:34 | |
They say, we'll give this grant to the CBI, this grant to here... | 0:43:34 | 0:43:38 | |
-Hang on. Nigel... -Say, for example... | 0:43:38 | 0:43:40 | |
Nigel, just a fact check here for us. | 0:43:40 | 0:43:44 | |
-Is it true...? -I'll tell you what... -Yes! | 0:43:44 | 0:43:46 | |
-Nigel, just do my bidding for once. -Yeah. | 0:43:46 | 0:43:48 | |
Can you just fact check what she said? | 0:43:48 | 0:43:51 | |
Is it true that the rebate, | 0:43:51 | 0:43:52 | |
-that the EU tells us where to spend the rebate? -No. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:55 | |
-I've never heard you say that. -No, it doesn't. | 0:43:55 | 0:43:57 | |
But the rebate is up for constant discussion, | 0:43:57 | 0:44:00 | |
and our rebate keeps being chipped away at as the price of other deals. | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
Can we get to the truth of this? 350 million a week is wrong. | 0:44:04 | 0:44:07 | |
It's higher than that. It's higher than that. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:09 | |
-MURMURING -If you look... | 0:44:09 | 0:44:12 | |
The trouble we've got here is, we're expressing things in billions | 0:44:12 | 0:44:15 | |
and hundreds of millions, and people get confused. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:18 | |
Fact, absolute fact, from the 2014 official yearly statistics, | 0:44:18 | 0:44:23 | |
cross-checked with the EU, | 0:44:23 | 0:44:25 | |
we pay £55 million a day as a contribution. | 0:44:25 | 0:44:29 | |
Some of that, David, is the rebate, which doesn't go, | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
but our gross contribution is 55 million a day. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:35 | |
In rebates and money that comes back | 0:44:35 | 0:44:37 | |
in terms of grants and agricultural support, | 0:44:37 | 0:44:40 | |
£21 million a day gets knocked off that 55 million. | 0:44:40 | 0:44:45 | |
I think maybe the easiest thing for us to do on the Brexit camp | 0:44:45 | 0:44:48 | |
is just to talk about the net figure. | 0:44:48 | 0:44:50 | |
And the net figure is £34 million every single day, | 0:44:50 | 0:44:55 | |
£10 billion a year, | 0:44:55 | 0:44:56 | |
and I say that is too much and we should spend that money | 0:44:56 | 0:45:01 | |
here in our own country, on our own people. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:04 | |
-Right... -Well... -Let's... I want to hear from you. | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
I'm going to hear from some more members of our audience. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:10 | |
Yes. Not too long, if you don't mind. | 0:45:10 | 0:45:13 | |
That's a very small proportion | 0:45:13 | 0:45:14 | |
of the total size of the British economy. | 0:45:14 | 0:45:17 | |
I don't think we'd notice it, really. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
-And... -MURMURING | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
Not to the extent that you seem to think that we would. | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
It's still a very small proportion. | 0:45:24 | 0:45:26 | |
And if you're right, Mr Farage, if you're right, | 0:45:26 | 0:45:29 | |
why is it that every time it looks like | 0:45:29 | 0:45:32 | |
the Leave campaign is edging ahead, that the pound is falling... | 0:45:32 | 0:45:35 | |
-It's not. It's not. The pound has gone up. -It appears to be. | 0:45:35 | 0:45:39 | |
The pound has gone up. | 0:45:39 | 0:45:40 | |
Because the Remain campaign seems to strengthen, that's why. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:43 | |
Can we please...? This is utter rubbish. | 0:45:43 | 0:45:45 | |
The pound has been falling since July 2014. | 0:45:45 | 0:45:47 | |
Because you may be taking us out of the EU. | 0:45:47 | 0:45:50 | |
Since the end of March, when Brexit looked likely, | 0:45:50 | 0:45:53 | |
-the pound has risen by 4%. -I don't think... | 0:45:53 | 0:45:56 | |
-You were a trader once. -I was. | 0:45:56 | 0:45:58 | |
Speculation on currency doesn't get you very far, | 0:45:58 | 0:46:00 | |
-because it goes up and down. -Course it does. | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
The woman there, and then I'll come to you. | 0:46:03 | 0:46:05 | |
The woman there on the right. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:06 | |
What is not credible is that people in the Leave campaign, | 0:46:06 | 0:46:10 | |
like Nigel Farage and Chris Grayling, | 0:46:10 | 0:46:12 | |
would invest that money in the NHS. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:14 | |
Nigel Farage doesn't even believe in the NHS. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
Chris Grayling has prevailed over | 0:46:17 | 0:46:20 | |
the most devastating so-called Andrew Lansley reform, | 0:46:20 | 0:46:25 | |
which is basically cuts and... | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
I've spent the last 15 years as a Member of Parliament | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
campaigning to support my local NHS, and I will carry on doing so. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:33 | |
But Nigel wants an insurance-based system. | 0:46:33 | 0:46:35 | |
-Hilary, the point is... -You do. You do want an insurance-based system. | 0:46:35 | 0:46:39 | |
-You do. -Do you know what I'd like to do? | 0:46:39 | 0:46:41 | |
Do you know what I'd like to do with the ten billion? | 0:46:41 | 0:46:43 | |
I would like that ten billion to be spent | 0:46:43 | 0:46:45 | |
helping the communities in Britain | 0:46:45 | 0:46:47 | |
that your government damaged so badly by opening up the doors | 0:46:47 | 0:46:50 | |
to eight and then ten former communist countries. | 0:46:50 | 0:46:54 | |
And what people need... | 0:46:54 | 0:46:56 | |
What people need, Hilary, are schools, hospitals, GPs. | 0:46:56 | 0:46:58 | |
-That's what they need. -All right... -I just want to say something. | 0:46:58 | 0:47:01 | |
-Silence for Eddie Izzard again. -The Governor of the Bank of England | 0:47:01 | 0:47:04 | |
says we'll most probably go into recession. | 0:47:04 | 0:47:06 | |
The IFS, the OECD, the World Trade Organisation... | 0:47:06 | 0:47:09 | |
Barack Obama says don't leave. Hillary Clinton backs him up. | 0:47:09 | 0:47:12 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:47:12 | 0:47:13 | |
And Donald Trump is the only one on their side, | 0:47:13 | 0:47:16 | |
and he is to the right of Attila the Hun. | 0:47:16 | 0:47:18 | |
That is not someone that you should be following. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:21 | |
Donald Trump is the only one... You don't hear this economic argument. | 0:47:21 | 0:47:24 | |
They're just talking about immigration. | 0:47:24 | 0:47:26 | |
-No, we're not. -Here, you're not, but normally you are. | 0:47:26 | 0:47:29 | |
You at the back. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:31 | |
The question was about Sarah Wollaston changing her mind. | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
It's rather depressing that she changed her decision | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
because of the way the campaign was being run | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
and not on the issues themselves, or that was how it came over. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:45 | |
Yes, all right. | 0:47:46 | 0:47:48 | |
And you, sir, there. The man there in the blue shirt. Yes. | 0:47:48 | 0:47:51 | |
And then the woman in front of you after you. Yes. | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
Bald-headed and blue shirt. Yeah. | 0:47:54 | 0:47:56 | |
Nothing against you. Just hard to identify you. | 0:47:56 | 0:48:00 | |
Separated at birth. | 0:48:00 | 0:48:02 | |
In some regards, it doesn't matter what Nigel thinks, | 0:48:02 | 0:48:05 | |
because Nigel's not elected, | 0:48:05 | 0:48:08 | |
and with respect to Allison, | 0:48:08 | 0:48:10 | |
if I don't want to agree with her views, | 0:48:10 | 0:48:13 | |
I don't have to buy the Telegraph. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:14 | |
If I disagree with Eddie's views, I can turn him off. | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
But what, for me, is the crux of the matter is sovereignty, | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
and the two elected ones... | 0:48:20 | 0:48:23 | |
And there's things about both of you I dislike, I'll be quite honest. | 0:48:23 | 0:48:26 | |
But if I dislike you enough, I can vote you out. | 0:48:26 | 0:48:30 | |
Here, here. | 0:48:30 | 0:48:31 | |
I can't have the same effect with a European set-up. | 0:48:31 | 0:48:36 | |
So if our laws are being made in Westminster, I can get rid of you. | 0:48:36 | 0:48:41 | |
You can vote Nigel out. You CAN vote Nigel out. | 0:48:42 | 0:48:45 | |
You can vote me out of a job by voting for Brexit. | 0:48:45 | 0:48:47 | |
I'm the turkey that'll vote for Christmas. | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
And the... And the woman in front of you. The woman in front of you. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:54 | |
My problem with the Brexit campaign is not so much the figures. | 0:48:54 | 0:48:59 | |
I think figures can be manipulated by either side. | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
I think the problem is, | 0:49:02 | 0:49:03 | |
and it's the same with the Remain campaign to an extent, | 0:49:03 | 0:49:07 | |
it's all if - if we come out, this might happen. | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
Well, I, like the lady at the front, am also not decided, | 0:49:10 | 0:49:15 | |
and I am swayed by some of the Leave arguments, | 0:49:15 | 0:49:20 | |
but I still don't really know what will happen if we do leave. | 0:49:20 | 0:49:24 | |
What's your...? What's your hesitation about it? | 0:49:24 | 0:49:27 | |
Is it about whether immigration would be better controlled? | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
-Is it about the economy? -I think... -Whether there'd be a recession? | 0:49:30 | 0:49:34 | |
I think the biggest one is about the economy, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:37 | |
and all the Remain campaigners say | 0:49:37 | 0:49:39 | |
if we stay in, the economy will be better, | 0:49:39 | 0:49:41 | |
and all the Leave, obviously, say the opposite. | 0:49:41 | 0:49:44 | |
But which one do you believe, and what figures do you believe? | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE Listen... | 0:49:47 | 0:49:49 | |
-Listen to her. She's made her point. -Actually... | 0:49:49 | 0:49:52 | |
No, no, no, no. Nigel, no. You've all made your point several times. | 0:49:52 | 0:49:55 | |
We take your point, hear what you said. | 0:49:55 | 0:49:57 | |
I want to take another question. We've only got eight minutes left. | 0:49:57 | 0:50:00 | |
Belinda Walker, and this is relevant to what was being said | 0:50:00 | 0:50:02 | |
by two former Prime Ministers, | 0:50:02 | 0:50:04 | |
John Major and Tony Blair, today in Belfast. | 0:50:04 | 0:50:07 | |
-Belinda Walker, let's just have your question. -Yes. | 0:50:07 | 0:50:09 | |
Will an unintended consequence of Brexit | 0:50:09 | 0:50:12 | |
be the break-up of the United Kingdom? | 0:50:12 | 0:50:15 | |
Will an unintended consequence of Brexit be the break-up of the UK? | 0:50:15 | 0:50:18 | |
-Eddie Izzard, you start on this. -Yes, I think so. | 0:50:18 | 0:50:20 | |
Nicola Sturgeon said she wouldn't immediately do a referendum... | 0:50:20 | 0:50:24 | |
I was up there, I was campaigning. I said, "Please don't go." | 0:50:24 | 0:50:28 | |
I got a lot of hatred for it, but I said, "Please don't go." | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
They're very positive on Europe, so if there is an exit, | 0:50:30 | 0:50:34 | |
they will work out their time and then they will leave. | 0:50:34 | 0:50:36 | |
Wales could do that as well, | 0:50:36 | 0:50:38 | |
and then the north of England could split up. | 0:50:38 | 0:50:40 | |
There's no logic... | 0:50:40 | 0:50:41 | |
If you think about the logic... of the direction of Brexit, | 0:50:41 | 0:50:44 | |
We've got to go forward and try and make Europe work. | 0:50:44 | 0:50:47 | |
We've got to stay in to try and make it work. | 0:50:47 | 0:50:49 | |
It's for the future of humanity. | 0:50:49 | 0:50:51 | |
If you exit, you cut it down, then Scotland could well go, | 0:50:51 | 0:50:54 | |
and then Wales might be there, but then the north of England... | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
Where do you go in the future? | 0:50:57 | 0:50:58 | |
There's no future except getting smaller and the Little Englander. | 0:50:58 | 0:51:01 | |
The Nigel Farage Little Englander, ex-immigrant, coming in... | 0:51:01 | 0:51:04 | |
-I don't know where that goes. -All right, Chris Grayling. | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:51:07 | 0:51:09 | |
-Little Englander. -The first thing... -Are you a Little Englander? | 0:51:10 | 0:51:13 | |
-WOMAN: -I vote for exit, and I'm not a Little Englander. | 0:51:13 | 0:51:18 | |
And my... And my ancestry goes back 700 years in this country. | 0:51:18 | 0:51:23 | |
-Well, so does mine. -Well, there you go, then. | 0:51:23 | 0:51:26 | |
Why aren't you more insistent on your sovereignty, then? | 0:51:26 | 0:51:30 | |
No, but the point is... | 0:51:30 | 0:51:32 | |
We are part of a club to make the whole economy better. | 0:51:32 | 0:51:35 | |
-Our economy is better if we're inside. -No, it isn't. | 0:51:35 | 0:51:38 | |
-Yes, it is. -No, it isn't. -Yes, it is. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:41 | |
All right, all right. LAUGHTER | 0:51:41 | 0:51:44 | |
Try... Try to avoid pantomime here. | 0:51:44 | 0:51:48 | |
-Chris Grayling. -The first thing to say is, the Scottish people - | 0:51:48 | 0:51:51 | |
thank goodness, well done for campaigning, Eddie - | 0:51:51 | 0:51:53 | |
voted to stay part of the United Kingdom. | 0:51:53 | 0:51:56 | |
We are one United Kingdom, we vote as one United Kingdom. | 0:51:56 | 0:51:59 | |
Every single citizen, from Stornoway to St Ives, | 0:51:59 | 0:52:01 | |
will vote with the same weight | 0:52:01 | 0:52:04 | |
about all of our futures in or out of the European Union. | 0:52:04 | 0:52:06 | |
I say thank goodness Scotland didn't vote for independence. | 0:52:06 | 0:52:09 | |
If it had done, it would have been in the middle | 0:52:09 | 0:52:11 | |
of the most profound financial crisis now | 0:52:11 | 0:52:13 | |
because of the collapse in the oil price. | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
And at the Scottish elections, the nationalists went down | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
and the most recent poll showed | 0:52:19 | 0:52:20 | |
that support for nationalism in Scotland has gone down. | 0:52:20 | 0:52:23 | |
We are one country, I'm proud to be one country. | 0:52:23 | 0:52:26 | |
We should carry on being one country. | 0:52:26 | 0:52:28 | |
And it's just worth touching briefly on the Northern Ireland point. | 0:52:28 | 0:52:31 | |
We've had a common travel area | 0:52:31 | 0:52:33 | |
with Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland since 1923. | 0:52:33 | 0:52:37 | |
Those who suggest that, somehow, that is going to disappear | 0:52:37 | 0:52:40 | |
because we leave the European Union are simply not right. | 0:52:40 | 0:52:43 | |
Our relationship with the Republic of Ireland | 0:52:43 | 0:52:45 | |
is very different to any other EU country. | 0:52:45 | 0:52:47 | |
It will carry on as it did before. | 0:52:47 | 0:52:49 | |
All right, well, I know you're not meant to be doing blue on blue, | 0:52:49 | 0:52:53 | |
but David Cameron, the Prime Minister, is worried that Brexit | 0:52:53 | 0:52:56 | |
would lead to a second Scottish independence referendum. | 0:52:56 | 0:53:00 | |
John Major says, "The plain uncomfortable truth," I quote him, | 0:53:00 | 0:53:03 | |
"is that the unity of the United Kingdom itself | 0:53:03 | 0:53:05 | |
"is on the ballot paper in two weeks' time." | 0:53:05 | 0:53:07 | |
-They're both wrong? -I'm afraid I think they are both wrong, | 0:53:07 | 0:53:10 | |
and the most recent opinion polling in Scotland, | 0:53:10 | 0:53:12 | |
during this campaign, in the last few days, | 0:53:12 | 0:53:15 | |
at a time when the Brexit campaign has been gaining momentum, | 0:53:15 | 0:53:18 | |
has shown, actually, a fall in support for Scottish separation. | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
All right, Allison Pearson. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:23 | |
Going back to what Chris said, I mean, | 0:53:23 | 0:53:26 | |
the simple economics of it is cos the oil price has fallen, | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
Scotland can't afford to leave. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:31 | |
I'm Welsh, and I think that Wales might be with Brexit. | 0:53:31 | 0:53:35 | |
Just want to quickly come back... | 0:53:35 | 0:53:37 | |
-Wales might be with Brexit? -I think Wales might be with Brexit, yes. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:41 | |
And Scotland, you think... | 0:53:41 | 0:53:42 | |
-WOMAN: -I'm Welsh, and I don't think they will. | 0:53:42 | 0:53:44 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:53:44 | 0:53:47 | |
Say why. Say why. We'd better hear your views. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:51 | |
-You think Wales will vote to remain? -I just think that, you know, | 0:53:51 | 0:53:54 | |
we've been isolated for so long, and we're part of Europe, | 0:53:54 | 0:53:57 | |
and I think we're better together. we're stronger together. | 0:53:57 | 0:54:01 | |
All this better together. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:03 | |
Eddie's going on about this lovely harmonious thing. | 0:54:03 | 0:54:06 | |
Is that not what we're trying to get to? | 0:54:06 | 0:54:08 | |
-You may not be, but I'm trying to do it. -It's not happening... | 0:54:08 | 0:54:11 | |
We've got to try harder, not run away from it. | 0:54:11 | 0:54:14 | |
-Running and hiding won't work. -Hilary Benn, your go. | 0:54:14 | 0:54:17 | |
Well, look... | 0:54:17 | 0:54:19 | |
-It is... -Can I just say, Chris Grayling's a hypocrite | 0:54:19 | 0:54:22 | |
to say, "I didn't want Scotland to be on their own," | 0:54:22 | 0:54:25 | |
but yet he wants the UK to be on their own. | 0:54:25 | 0:54:28 | |
All right. Hilary Benn. | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
Look... | 0:54:30 | 0:54:31 | |
The truth about the European Union is, it is an astonishing achievement | 0:54:31 | 0:54:35 | |
given what we used to do to each other. | 0:54:35 | 0:54:37 | |
You only have to visit the graveyards | 0:54:37 | 0:54:39 | |
of the First and Second World Wars | 0:54:39 | 0:54:41 | |
to know how important this creation is. | 0:54:41 | 0:54:43 | |
And, yes, it's difficult, | 0:54:43 | 0:54:44 | |
and sometimes we don't get everything that we want. | 0:54:44 | 0:54:47 | |
But it's a lot better than fighting each other. | 0:54:47 | 0:54:49 | |
To answer your question directly, | 0:54:49 | 0:54:50 | |
it could well lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom. | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
Now, we just spent the time in that referendum | 0:54:53 | 0:54:56 | |
arguing, in Scotland, we are better and stronger together. | 0:54:56 | 0:55:01 | |
And now we're on a panel with three people saying, you know what? | 0:55:01 | 0:55:04 | |
We're better and stronger not together, breaking up. | 0:55:04 | 0:55:07 | |
And that is not the right approach to take. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:09 | |
And the nightmare - we leave the European Union, | 0:55:09 | 0:55:12 | |
the United Kingdom breaks up, | 0:55:12 | 0:55:14 | |
heaven forbid Boris Johnson becomes Prime Minister, | 0:55:14 | 0:55:17 | |
President Le Pen wins in France, and Donald Trump in America. | 0:55:17 | 0:55:19 | |
Although I think that won't happen, because people will be wise enough | 0:55:19 | 0:55:22 | |
to vote for a candidate called Hillary. | 0:55:22 | 0:55:24 | |
Surely the key point is that we live | 0:55:30 | 0:55:32 | |
and we are citizens of a country called the United kingdom. | 0:55:32 | 0:55:35 | |
We do not live in a country, yet, called the European Union. | 0:55:35 | 0:55:39 | |
It may well be that it becomes something like a country, | 0:55:39 | 0:55:42 | |
but we are, within the United Kingdom, one single nation. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:44 | |
We used to be separate nations and we came together. | 0:55:44 | 0:55:46 | |
That's what the world's got to be about. | 0:55:46 | 0:55:49 | |
-We've got to head in that direction. -Nigel Farage. | 0:55:49 | 0:55:51 | |
Belinda Walker asked, will an unintended consequence, | 0:55:51 | 0:55:54 | |
or maybe an intended consequence, be the break-up of the UK? | 0:55:54 | 0:55:57 | |
I don't believe it will, although I have to say, as a Brexiteer, | 0:55:57 | 0:56:00 | |
to see Tony Blair back in the fray, | 0:56:00 | 0:56:01 | |
telling us what we should think and what we should do, | 0:56:01 | 0:56:03 | |
yippee, bring it on! | 0:56:03 | 0:56:05 | |
Let's see more of Blair, because his credibility is just about zero. | 0:56:05 | 0:56:10 | |
The idea that Wales somehow is in love with the European Union, | 0:56:10 | 0:56:14 | |
you're all in for a shock. | 0:56:14 | 0:56:15 | |
Wales is every bit as Euro-sceptic as the rest of England. | 0:56:15 | 0:56:19 | |
And I also think in Scotland, you'll be very surprised. | 0:56:19 | 0:56:22 | |
This idea that Scotland is massively pro-EU and England's anti-EU, | 0:56:22 | 0:56:26 | |
what you'll find is the results won't actually be that different. | 0:56:26 | 0:56:31 | |
And the idea that Nicola Sturgeon is going to hold a second referendum | 0:56:31 | 0:56:37 | |
on separation from the United Kingdom | 0:56:37 | 0:56:39 | |
with oil at below 50 bucks a barrel, | 0:56:39 | 0:56:42 | |
you may as well go and drink moonshine - | 0:56:42 | 0:56:44 | |
it ain't going to happen. | 0:56:44 | 0:56:46 | |
OK. | 0:56:46 | 0:56:47 | |
Can I...? | 0:56:47 | 0:56:49 | |
We've got... We're just running out of time. | 0:56:49 | 0:56:52 | |
She's going to wait her time. | 0:56:52 | 0:56:53 | |
But that is a huge part, | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
and they get 245 million in Wales, so that's why Wales should stay. | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
-100 million goes into... -What about from us? | 0:56:58 | 0:57:01 | |
All right, all right, all right. | 0:57:01 | 0:57:02 | |
That's a positive thing they get from the European Union. | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
There's a woman in the second row who has her hand up. | 0:57:05 | 0:57:07 | |
Just before the end, I'll give you... | 0:57:07 | 0:57:09 | |
You argue with each other, but let's hear from her. | 0:57:09 | 0:57:12 | |
-Just ten seconds. -Thank you. -Very briefly. -Thank you. Very briefly. | 0:57:12 | 0:57:15 | |
Eddie, you've been banging on at Nigel about him being an immigrant. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:18 | |
Excuse me, Nigel is an Englishman. | 0:57:18 | 0:57:20 | |
-He's an English gentleman. -He comes from an immigrant family. | 0:57:20 | 0:57:23 | |
-He embraces the English culture... -His family came through... | 0:57:23 | 0:57:27 | |
I said we'd give her ten seconds. You've nearly had your time. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
-Sorry, can I not say any more? -I told you... Yeah. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:34 | |
-I can do a bit more? -Not much more. -No, no. -Five seconds more. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:38 | |
-It's about the English culture. What's happening... -British. | 0:57:38 | 0:57:42 | |
The British, sorry, all right, the British culture. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
But do you mean English or British? | 0:57:44 | 0:57:47 | |
UK culture, as we know it, as it is now, | 0:57:47 | 0:57:49 | |
if we allow ourselves to just keep being invaded, | 0:57:49 | 0:57:52 | |
we are getting diluted. | 0:57:52 | 0:57:54 | |
All right, fine. We've got to stop. I'm sorry. | 0:57:54 | 0:57:57 | |
I apologise to all of you who have your hands up, | 0:57:57 | 0:58:00 | |
and I'm sorry, sir, not to be able to bring you in. | 0:58:00 | 0:58:04 | |
We only have an hour, an hour's up. | 0:58:04 | 0:58:06 | |
We have more programmes, though, | 0:58:06 | 0:58:08 | |
because we're in Nottingham next Wednesday | 0:58:08 | 0:58:11 | |
for a special programme with Michael Gove and a Question Time audience. | 0:58:11 | 0:58:16 | |
We have David Cameron in Milton Keynes on Sunday next, | 0:58:16 | 0:58:20 | |
with an audience. | 0:58:20 | 0:58:21 | |
Not this coming Sunday, the Sunday after. | 0:58:21 | 0:58:24 | |
And those programmes are at 6.45 on BBC One, | 0:58:24 | 0:58:28 | |
not at our usual time. | 0:58:28 | 0:58:29 | |
And in between that, next Thursday, | 0:58:29 | 0:58:31 | |
if you can keep up with this, which I barely can, | 0:58:31 | 0:58:33 | |
our regular time after the Ten O'Clock News, | 0:58:33 | 0:58:36 | |
we've got a Question Time coming from York - that's next Thursday. | 0:58:36 | 0:58:39 | |
And in the far, far, far distant future, after the referendum, | 0:58:39 | 0:58:42 | |
we're going to be in Preston on June 30th. | 0:58:42 | 0:58:44 | |
If you'd like to come to any of those audiences, | 0:58:44 | 0:58:47 | |
the website address is there, the telephone number... | 0:58:47 | 0:58:52 | |
If you're listening on Five Live, as you know, | 0:58:52 | 0:58:55 | |
the debate continues on Question Time Extra Time, | 0:58:55 | 0:58:58 | |
and no doubt it'll be very lively. | 0:58:58 | 0:58:59 | |
But here the debate comes to an end. Sadly, for most of us. | 0:58:59 | 0:59:03 | |
My thanks to our panel | 0:59:03 | 0:59:05 | |
and to all of you who came here to Folkestone to take part. | 0:59:05 | 0:59:07 | |
So until next Wednesday, at 6.45, with Michael Gove, | 0:59:07 | 0:59:11 | |
from Question Time, goodnight. | 0:59:11 | 0:59:13 |