02/06/2016 Question Time

Welcome to you, whether you're watching or listening

in our audience or at home, and to our panel tonight.

The Conservative Environment Secretary, Elizabeth Truss, a

campaigner to remain in the EU. Labour MP, Frank Field, campaigning

to leave. From Ukip, which gained seven seats for the first time in

the Welsh Assembly four weeks ago, Neil Hamilton. Plaid Cymru's first

woman MP at Westminster, Liz Saville Roberts. And the left-wing writer

and columnist, Owen Jones. Before we take our first question,

don't forget Facebook, Twitter, or text 83981 to comment

on what's said here. And, sorry for the glitch last week.

The picture and sound were out of sync at the beginning of the

programme with voices and mouths moving at a different pace. It was

not your equipment, it was our fault and I hope it is OK this week.

Right, our first question from Jasmine Ellis. Will leaving the EU

increase my chances of getting on the property ladder or decrease?

George Osborne said property prices could fall by 18% if we left. Who

would like to start? Neil Hamilton. The principal driver of property

price increases in recent years has been the massive uncontrolled levels

of immigration. We are adding to our population every year on the

government's official figures a third of a million people, a city

the size of Cardiff being added to the population of the UK every year.

If you increase the demand for property whilst supply remains

largely constant, then prices are bound to increase. There are many

other reasons why property prices have been increasing as well, all to

do with restrictions on planning, etc, but fundamentally it is a

population problem. England in particular, and I am referring to

England as distinct from the UK, is one of the most densely populated

countries in the EU. It has over 400 people per square kilometre,

compared with only 229 in Germany, 121 in France. As most of the

population increase we have had has been concentrated, house price

increases has been concentrated in England and the south-east in

particular, that has been the principal driver. What are you

saying? Are you saying to her that the property ladder will give her a

better chance to buy a house? I think it will. I am not suggesting

it is the answer entirely to the problem. George Osborne's

quantitative easing policy has also improved things. But that is a

different question altogether. We have a lot of questions about the EU

but we thought we would take this first. Owen Jones. Firstly, I

strongly reject the idea that the housing crisis in this country was

caused by immigrants or by the European Union, and we let

politicians off the hook when we blame foreigners for the failure of

governments in this country to build housing.

APPLAUSE I was a floating voter to begin with

in this referendum. I genuinely considered the case for Brexit. But

I am sick of scaremongering on both sides and I think we should have a

reasoned debate. Whether it is the nets of world War three on one hand,

or Adolf Hitler and the Nazis on the other... Can you answer the

question? The problem with housing was not caused by immigrants. This

government's house-building record is the lowest in peace time in

England and Wales. We are not building the housing the country

desperately needs. We are not building Council housing. 5 million

people languish on social housing waiting lists. We are not regulating

the private renting sector. I am not on the housing ladder. I know I look

12 but I am 31 and I am far from being on the housing ladder myself.

We have to stop a situation where we blame people, whether from abroad or

Brussels, because all Neil Hamilton wants us to do, posing as

antiestablishment, is to let politicians off the hook in this

country because of their failure to build the housing we desperately

need. Are you getting nearer to the answer to your question? I think

Owen Jones is answering Mike and I choux my question. I believe it is

the fault of the Conservatives for not building more housing. Not

building council houses is ridiculous, and we're not doing

anything to stop the rent prices. Can I address that? Our government

over the past five years Biltmore council houses than Labour over 13

years in office, so that is simply not true. -- we Biltmore council

houses. We recognise there is an issue with housing and we have a

pledge to build 1 million more houses over the course of this

Parliament. I sit on a committee to work on making sure that happens but

we need to make sure the planning system works in people's favour. We

are developing plans to do that. Owen is right. This is an issue

about UK Government policy. One of my fears about leaving the EU is not

only the massive damage to our economy and the impact on young

people and the opportunities and the ability to get a job and the ability

to move around Europe, but also the fact that we would divert attention

from what are the really challenging issues we face as a country, which

is getting people on the housing ladder, helping improve our

education system, investing in the health service. Those are the

critical issues people care about, and talking about Europe as though

it is responsible for those problems is a massive diversion away from the

key issues. Liz Truss, it was your Chancellor who said, as a warning,

that house prices could fall by up to 18%, Treasury advice, if we left

the EU. Wouldn't that be a good thing for people? Is that not what

she wants? It would be an extremely bad thing for this country to go

into recession, to have serious price shocks, to have investor

uncertainty, with the consequent impact on people's jobs. We are

talking about 500,000 jobs. Nobody wants that instability and

uncertainty. We want more houses being built so that young people can

get on the housing ladder and people can have those opportunities. Let's

hear from the audience. I heard on the news that the Conservatives are

increasing the right to a scheme into more social housing, so surely

that is reducing social housing stock rather than increasing it and

helping people in need. Frank Field. The answer is to not trust what the

Chancellor of the Exchequer says. APPLAUSE

Because he lies? Or what? I am sure he believes when he says it, but if

you look at his record, his Budget hardly lasts one day before it

starts unravelling. I am sure he means well when he says house prices

will fall by 18% but my jasmine, I hope you will be deciding how you

vote the destiny of this country on other reasons than that you might

get on the property ladder, important as that is. Again, it is

this divide in politics, polarising. Both answers are right. If we want

more people housed, we need to build many more houses. But if you build

many more houses and one third of a million new people come here to

live, it actually makes it very difficult for the people already

waiting. So there are a number of issues here which bear on it. But I

hope nobody is going to decide the fate of this country on a George

Osborne assertion that if you vote to come out house prices will fall

by 18%. You, sir. Every government keeps saying we have to build more

houses for immigrants coming over. What do they want? They want no

Green Belt? Will it be concrete jungles from London to Cardiff? We

have to have space for people to breathe, not just bricks and mortar.

APPLAUSE Liz Saville Roberts. Speaking as the

only person on the panel who lives in a house in Wales, I would also

like... APPLAUSE

I would like to note with some dismay that the only Welsh assembly

member here kicked off on immigration, and that housing is

actually a devolved matter and I would have expected reference to

that. APPLAUSE

Now, immigration, given that 95% of the population of Wales were born in

the United Kingdom, immigration here is not so much a problem as

migration. And the property ladder is very much a factor in that. We

have an ageing housing stock that desperately needs improvement, a

lack of social housing, and in the area I represent we also have a

factor of second homes pushing up prices. For us, for the people I

know and represent in Wales, the problem is developing the economy,

that is what counts. There is, without a shadow of a doubt, Wales

would be worse off if we were to leave the EU.

APPLAUSE Enough for the moment on housing.

Onto our next question on the EU. I know a lot of you to talk about it.

Zena Blundell. Just before that, I am sorry, I

should announce where we will be next. Folkestone next week, York the

week after that, and two extra programmes before the vote,

Nottingham with Michael Gove and Milton Keynes North David Cameron.

If you want to come to any of those programmes, there is the address. I

hope you will stay until the end of the programme when I will give the

figures again. Isn't it true that no one really knows the effects of us

leaving the EU because no country has ever left before?

APPLAUSE That is true, in that we don't know

what would happen. We don't have any positive will turn the tips in terms

of trading arrangements that have been proposed. But what we do know

is that being part of the EU has delivered huge economic prosperity

to our country. Being part of that single market, having access to

those 500 million people has meant that we have been able to trade, we

have been able to do much more business. That means more jobs, more

investment in our companies, more income for our people. And it

ultimately means more money in all of our pockets. If you look at the

example of a business like a farm that I met today in Somerset, they

sell cheese right across the EU. Because we are part of the single

market, they use the same labels on their products in France and

Britain. It means they can expand business, take on more people, which

means Somerset farmers do better, who supply them with milk. It means

a local corner shop is doing better because people have money in their

pockets to spend. So that single market is vitally important for our

prosperity as a country. We know that if we left that single market,

which is what the Leave campaign are proposing, we would see less trade,

less investment, many companies have said they invest in the UK because

of access to those 500 million people. And we would see a real

impact on our income, not just a short-term recession which is going

to last at least a year, and economists are predicting, but a

real long-term impact on the level of income we would get, the

opportunities that young people would have and the jobs available. I

think we do know that. We know that trade is good and moving away from

that relationship, becoming more inward facing, is going to make us

all poorer. Frank Field, isn't it true that no one really knows the

effects of leaving because no one has left before? I think that is

absolutely right. One of the things that cannot be known is that nobody

has left before, certainly not one of the major players. The effects on

day two after the referendum when, whoever wins, there will be

renegotiations, we literally do not know what the consequences will be.

I think there are dangers and maybe later in the programme we will come

onto this. But I don't think this recital of facts here, there and

everywhere, which nobody knows whether they are true, on referendum

day you are not going to make up your mind on some politician having

given you a series of facts. Our very being has prepared us for this

day, our history, our backgrounds, our knowledge. We will be making a

decision about the destiny of our country. And while we have to go

through this poetry of politicians thinking we are important and boring

you with programmes and facts and all sorts of stunts... Steady on,

the programmes have been rather exciting. Maybe for some it has been

exciting. But it sounds everybody that we are now moving to that stage

where the nation itself will make a decision about our destiny. And I do

not think that sets of facts will help anybody do that. You are asking

people to vote Brexit without having any knowledge of the effects of

leaving, what it will be. Is that what you are saying? We do not know

the consequences of leaving. The idea that in fact this group of

countries will actually behave in a vicious way to us, it may be that

they will spite their own face to be nasty to us. It might be that they

get more out of our membership than we, in trade, gain from them. And

they would want some sort of deal and want it quickly. It is a leap in

the dark. It is not actually, at all. It is about the country making

a decision about its destiny. The real danger is not what is being

discussed. It is that, given that Mr Cameron only gave you the vote

because he needed to to keep the Tory party together, that the vote

is being denied to others in Europe. And the worry of this old elite that

runs Europe must be that when other countries see how you exercise

provoked, they will similarly demand a vote and that we would then be

beginning to see goodbye to the European Union as we know it today.

APPLAUSE. Zean ah you asked the question, you

are looking perplexed? I want somebody to say, these are the

guarantees of our continued sovereignty, that we won't lose any

more sovereignty. We can't... And these are the guarantees of our

economy. One way or the other. OK. These are the guarantees that will

protect our NHS in the future, five years from now. And nobody's coming

out with anything that will firmly convince me that you can offer those

guarantees. Owain Jones? Frank, I have huge amounts of respect for

Frank. An MP that represents the interests of working people and the

rights were fought for at great costs and you were the first MP to

do that. We have certain rights for workers that are guaranteed as part

of that membership. Some of those are rights that you will depend on,

paid annual leave, for example. For part-time workers, mostly women, to

have the same rights as full-time workers, many will be worried about

under-cutting of wages. Agency workers have to have the same rights

as full-time workers, what do we seriously think will happen if we

leave the European Union under this Conservative Government? I've a good

idea - those rights will burn on a bonfire bit by a new Conservative

Prime Minister Boris Johnson, we can't allow that to happen. In my

opinion, the red line for me in this referendum was the rights and

security working people and you can't trust the Conservative

Government if we leave to protect the rights.

APPLAUSE. Can I... Wait, we have heard your

say. I know you're Secretary of State but you have to take your turn

with the other panelists. Neil Hamilton? That neatly encapsulates

the choice, it's if we are going to have a democracy in this country or

not. We may well think the workers' rights so-called legislation in the

EU is perfect, and what we want to keep for ever, but if the British

people decided in a general election that they didn't want that

particular scheme, shouldn't they have the right to vote for a

Government that was going to change it? Similarly if you don't like the

results, you could vote that Government out and then the

legislation was changed. This is what democracy was all about. The

Labour Government in the '70s introduced the Act 1975. We had

workers' rights before we joined the EU as well. It's an evolving

process. To go back to what Zena asked in her question was, what do

we know about the future, we know it's inherently uncertain whether we

are in or out, who knows how the eurozone is going to develop and the

catastrophe that has unfolded which is enveloping the whole of Europe,

the biggest attack on workers' rights in Europe, 49% youth

unemployment in Greece, 47% in Spain, 39% youth unemployment in

Italy, this is a #34ri9ical project being controlled by an unelected

body of civil servants, people we don't have any control over, we

can't elect them or dismiss them, yet they make our laws. It's an

absolute disgrace this country's given away the power of its elected

politicians to make our laws, people who we have a right to elect and

people who if we don't like them we can dismiss.

APPLAUSE. Forgive me because I have every

respect for concerns about civility. When people talk about elections, I

think of the House of Lords and where do we stand with that? What

strikes me too... Do they have the same powers as the European

Parliament of the Commission? Many aspects. We've had the EU, the

devolution's changed it, the Supreme Court has changed the rules of the

House of Lords. We pay 2% of our GDP to NATO, heaven knows, we work

within a global community, we have to work with each other. If I could

come back to what you were talking about Zena with the way that we are

presented with these facts... No-one knows the effects were her actual

words. In all honesty I think it's true. It's frustrating to have facts

thrown at us which don't stand up. What we are being challenged to do

here is, to think about who do we believe the most and it's that leap

of faith. Part of the fear and fact-mongering, we need to help

people make decisions, who do you believe the most? Who do you believe

apart from yourself? For myself, I have to be convinced, and I am not,

that Westminster would replicate... Sorry, you put your trust in

Brussels rather than Westminster? So far Wales has done to the tune of

?245 million per annum better, it gets more out of Europe than it pays

in. You don't know that... In the infrastructure funding I have to

believe that will be replicated. Although I've only been an MP for a

year, I find that difficult to believe. 80% of our farmers receive

varying amounts from the common agricultural committee. But it's

taxpayers' money... People have done their best to argue against the

common agricultural budget. I cannot for sheep and cattle farmers see a

better future. Look, I believe in another Europe, that it's possible,

I'm not defending the status quo. One of the things to show how we can

change the European Union because it has to change and be democratised,

this Government was the biggest cheerleader for the Transatlantic

trading partnership, some will have heard of it, negotiated in secret to

Brussels and the US, large corporations have the ability to sue

elective Governments in secret courts on policies they don't like.

Because people protested and campaigned, here and all over

Europe, we not only got an exemption for the NHS forced on this

Government against their will, but because people protested and

campaigned all over Europe, it now lies in ruins. Don't let anyone say

we can't change the European Union. If we make our voice heard, which is

the only way you ever get change, I don't think Britain's perfect, the

only way we do it is by organising it together, making our voice heard

and taking on a political elite that wants to take away our rights.

APPLAUSE. Liz, I'll come to you in a moment.

The members of the audience first, you, Sir, on the gangway? If we were

a country that were not part of the EU and the upcroping referendum was

a vote to join, does the panel think it would be a good idea to join an

organisation that's quite clearly corrupt and riddled with fraud? Liz

truss? Perve APPLAUSE.

If you were out, would you go in? I think the deal of being in the

single market is incredibly valuable for our country and delivers a huge

amount, having a market of 500 million people that we can sell our

goods to, that we can trade with, is very important. Britain has the best

of both worlds. We are not part of the eurozone, so the issues that

Neil was talking about don't apply to us, we've got a growing economy,

we are not part of the Schengen border free zone, we've got an

exemption from ever closer union, we are in a very, very good position

and frankly, I think it would be difficult for another country to

negotiate the position we are in now with respect to Europe. Having

access to the single market, which is incredibly valuable and does

deliver huge benefits. So investors from overseas. We are a huge

attractor of investment, car companies like Nissan know they can

sell their cars across the European Union. That's really important. What

about the democratic issue which is what Brexit people have been arguing

for, Frank in his way and Neil in his way? I sit on the environment

council and the agriculture council. We discuss the rules that are

decided at a European level. I talk to my counterparts across the

European Union. Now, of course... What percentage of the votes do you

have... We have to come to agreements and compromises. What

percentage of the vote do you have... We have an important

influence. The common fisheries policy, previously we were throwing

away dead fish into the sea because of the quotas. Why can't we do it

entirely ourselves? Because we share the oceans. Because we are in the

EU. Because we share the English Channel. Regardless of whether we

are in or out of the EU, we'd have to do deals with other countries

because we share those things. Before all this, we had a fishing

industry. You are talking about throwing dead fish away.

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Can I finish this point. Let Frank

make his point because he picked up on something you said? It's tending

to the details. I mean, the question or the intervention there was

whether if we now know what we do know whether we'd actually join and

Liz is saying it's brilliant because being in Europe we've made sure that

fish aren't thrown overboard dead. It's a very important issue. At one

time, we had a thriving fishing industry. Before we decided

everybody else should share our fishing fields. So I think on the

whole question of this, and the gentleman there was making a really

valid point, that I can't remember the last time when your money was

accounted properly in Europe and was signed off by the auditors. They

cannot actually justify how they are spending your money. So I would have

thought on that basis, whether we go in, knowing what we now know, it

doesn't actually help with Zena's point which is the key thing,

whether in fact through all this mist of facts being thrown all over

the place, people get enough information to make a secure

decision for the future of their country. I would like for the panel

to listen to half a dozen voices from the audience, then you can pick

up on any of the points that you like. The woman in yellow? You said

we don't know the consequence of coming out, but we certainly know

the consequence of staying in because the population of Scotland

by 2023 will infiltrate through the whole of the country and how's our

NHS and schools going to deal with it? We'll keep that point, the

immigration one. You in the front in blue? You say you were in a good

position being in Europe, I don't believe we are in a good position

when we've got 28 bureaucrats lecturing us on how we run our

country. APPLAUSE.

OK. And you? I think the whole, all the polices throughout the whole

in-out debate need to remember they are gambling with real people's

lives. I'm 21, a graduate just out of university and if we come out, my

generation will be dealing with the proper effects in ten, 15 years'

time and it's not tittle-tattle, it's people's lives. What do you

make of the debate so far and the things you have heard? Tit-for-tat.

There's not been any constructive arguments that have come to light

and I don't think it's fair we are being asked, the Brexit campaigners

are asking us to vote on something we don't know the consequences of.

They forget that we are playing with real people's lives. The man in the

blue shirt at the very back? There is no guarantee in the future that

if we do leave the EU, that we won't have immigration controls ourselves.

Any negotiations in the future will obviously involve the free movement

of people. APPLAUSE.

OK. Let me take one more point. You in the second row? Both sides of the

argument have come to an agreement that we need a single market whether

we are in or out but the Brexiters say we will be able to negotiate

using the single market have controls on the number of free

movement of people, I want to know if that's true. We'll take the

immigration issue. Neil Hamilton, you start?

The key point is that unless we recover control of our borders and

we in this country decide who we want to come and live and work here

from abroad, then we are not going to be able to control the speed and

flow of immigration. And nobody is saying immigration should be

completely stopped. Far from it. But we cannot cope with the scale and

speed of current immigration. We are adding a city the size of Cardiff to

our national population in the UK every year and this is set to

continue for the foreseeable future. 1 million extra people every three

years. How our public services going to cope with the speed of change?

And the wage compression, to go back to the point Owen was making

earlier, what greater attack could there be on the rights of workers

than to depress wages at the lowest point of the income scale so that

the minimum wage becomes the maximum wage for millions of people?

APPLAUSE What do you say to that? What I

think is right and is a number of people listening to this sort of

discussion is how immigration has become shorthand for legitimate

concerns. -- what frightens people. Legitimate concerns about the

employment, economy and security. One of the tragedies of the Labour

Party is that they have let immigration become the toxic subject

to the point that we are discussing it like this, and it has played into

the hands of parties such as Ukip. We look at the economy and

employment and is acuity. Aren't we surely better off working with our

neighbours in Europe? The main concern for migration is not EU

migrants but migrants from beyond Europe, sub-Saharan Africa, the

Middle East, from conflict situations. How are we dealing with

that? We are playing on very genuine fears here, but I do fear that the

consequences when we talk about immigration is something we need to

be very careful with. Do you want to come in? My understanding is that in

terms of the third of a million, half of those are people not from

the European Union. If we need to control it that badly, why don't we

control the number of non-EU immigrants and reduce pressure that

way? The figures are a third of a million, over 250,000 from Europe.

Those are the government figures on this. But this whole question about

immigration, I don't view it like Liz. I think it is a legitimate

question, partly because it is not just about immigration. That is what

I said, to be fair. Then let me take the argument on. It is about who

controls what, who is coming, how budgets are spent. If you have no

control over your borders, as we have not had as far as Europe has

gone since Labour open the borders in 2004, we have seen wages pushed

down. My poorest constituents have lost out. There is real shortage of

housing, difficulties with schools and pressure on the NHS. In a lovely

world we could say that you taxpayers will cough up even more

money and mitigate these effects. But it is very difficult to win an

election and persuade you to spend more money in this particular way.

So this is a key question because it sums up about whether we control our

country or not, it is focused on the borders because that is a very real

one that affects people's lives. If you are well-to-do in this country,

upper middle-class, you have never had it so good. You have a serving

class that the Edwardians had. At the bottom of the pile, you are the

ones who have lost out, you are the ones looking to Ukip. My worry about

this election campaign is that people who normally vote Labour will

feel that because of the sort of campaign we are putting forward,

somehow they will be disloyal as Labour voters to vote to come out.

My message is that you can be totally loyal and vote to come out.

That is not a reason for changing parties, as 1 million Labour

supporters deserted us on this issue last time and went to Ukip.

APPLAUSE Everybody has more to say, but this

brings us exactly to what Owain John Bury wants to ask. With his

half-hearted support for Remain, is Jeremy Corbyn signally hinting to

the British people that we should leave the EU? Exactly what Frank

Field would like. I don't think so. The problem is that the press has

framed this debate as an argument between two rival Conservative

factions. This is about the Labour Party. Not the Conservative Party.

What is happening is that Jeremy Corbyn is making the point, I

presume, and I think the campaign has started in earnest, that we need

to stay in the European Union to change it, not to uncritically

support what we have. A key point is the NHS, which links to that. One of

the things Labour will be talking about is the NHS because Leave keep

talking about it. They are stuffed full of people ideological opposed

to the existence of a publicly run NHS. The NHS have a clear and

present danger which Labour should be concerned about. Liz Truss, her

government, the longest fall in spending on the NHS... I get

impatient with panellists who do not answer the question. The question

was about Labour and you will know the figures that suggest, I want to

stick with this, that Labour, people who say they vote Labour, 45% say

they do not know whether Labour wants them to stay in or exit.

People on the left in Labour generally need to make our voices

louder now, because we are in the middle of the referendum proper. I

am not the representative of Jeremy Corbyn. I want him and the Labour

Party... Heeded a speech today and I want farm or speeches on it. But

what they need to talk about our issues that affect people. The Leave

campaign, Neil Hamilton here is someone who opposes the existence of

the NHS. He once it privatised. You said it was a more effective killing

machine than the Taliban, a Soviet style monolith. There is a lot at

stake, and the NHS is one of them. I want Jeremy Corbyn and the

leadership to say what is at stake, including the NHS and the rights of

workers. I welcome Jeremy Corbyn taking an active part in this

campaign. I appeared with Ed Miliband talking about the benefits

of the EU for the environment. We share the air and the seas, wildlife

across Europe. It is important that we protect the environment. I am

pleased the Labour Party is working with us on that. Jeremy Corbyn would

not share a platform with you because he thinks it is disloyal. He

is making his case in his way. One of the benefits of the Remain

campaign is we do have people... I believe in free trade and that is

why I am part of the remainder campaign. I think it delivers

prosperity, more jobs. I have two daughters and I want them to live in

an outward facing Britain, open to working collaboratively with other

countries, where they have opportunities across Europe. Lots of

other people have other reasons. We have heard from Owen and Liz. It is

a campaign that is very cross- party. Whereas on the Leave

campaign, and I'm a huge admirer of Frank, they have done fantastic work

on early intervention. I don't agree with you on this issue, but I do

think that a lot of the Leave agenda is about drawing our country in,

isolating ourselves, not working with other countries, which we do

successfully. We are working with them, rather than against them.

Given that Jeremy Corbyn had one of the highest mandates ever, I think

it is a shame that he is not speaking louder. We have the

previous leader of the Labour Party who has a higher profile in this

campaign than the current leader of the. Liz Saville Roberts, are you

surprised he will not share a platform? I note this week that

Jeremy Corbyn was on holiday, again. He does seem to be taking holidays

when it is perhaps opportune. On the one hand, from the outside... Are

you saying he is dodging by going away when he thinks it is

inappropriate? He could be more outspoken than he is. I think the

Labour Party is unfortunately indulging in ideological

navel-gazing while one of the main Brexit personalities is using this

as an extended job interview for the Prime Minister job. He did a speech

today and the only thing the press spoke about was the fact that people

heckled when a BBC reporter spoke, rather than talking about what he

said. They are trying to learn the lessons from Scotland because what

happened there was that Conservatives and Labour stood

together, alienate it a lot of Labour voters and allowed it to be

presented as an establishment stitch up. Are they right to do that? Was

Sadiq Khan right? Sadiq Khan has his own mandate. You are a Labour man.

Do you want to see Labour refusing to go alongside Tories on platforms?

I think they should not do that, for reasons I said in Scotland. At the

end of the day, the issue is that Jeremy Corbyn needs to make the case

for a different, more democratic Europe run in the interests of the

majority. I would like more passion in this. I can be passionate for

Wales because the case is black and white and I see what we stand to

lose. What we stand to lose with workers' rights, women's rights, the

whole aspect of a better Europe we can be hoping for. I would expect

greater leadership on the part of the Labour Party. The panel are

taking cheap shots off each other and I think it is a simple fact of

numbers. If you stop immigration, whether from Europe, from Africa,

Brazil, you can then afford to build the houses that are required for the

people who are homeless, for the hospitals, for schools, roads, etc.

Stop the people coming in, sort out what we have a ready got. Charity

begins at home. I am not disagreeing with that but the question was about

Jeremy Corbyn and his role. I do not think Jeremy wishes, or could play a

decisive role in this campaign. He came to the House of Commons after I

came into the House of Commons. Every time he and I were protecting

workers' rights in the way that Owen talks about, we were in the same

lobby against what the European Union was actually doing, and now we

have had this conversion. So why should anybody pay attention when

you have such a track record of being suspicious of this superstate,

of taking power away from you, of treating people in a totally

disregarded fashion. Therefore, I don't think he plays a role at all.

My worry, which is David's point, is first of all a large portion of

Labour voters do not know where the party is. For once, I think that is

an advantage, given the position that the party is trying to put

forward. I am also thinking forward to the next election. This is

incredibly important, and a question was raised at the beginning about

the destiny of the country. I am also thinking that after referendum

day, we get on with the business of trying to unite the government and

the country together again. Our focus will then be on the next

election. To unite the government? One of the functions of the

government after this, its performance has been so pathetic, I

think there will be a new Prime Minister and the job of that Prime

Minister will be trying to get the governing party together. And the

negotiating team will have to be established to take forward the

ragbag of ideas the Prime Minister brought back from Europe, because

they are not the gauche elated yet. They will need a negotiating team to

unite the country. My worry is that throughout this process a large

proportion of Labour voters will feel that nobody is speaking on

their behalf. Liz has spoken powerfully under half of her

daughters. Her daughters, thank God, are in a different position to lots

of daughters in my constituency who are not as privileged as her

daughters. They are at the bottom of the pile. What is actually going to

happen to those, and whether they feel they are being represented in

this debate? And I think people will feel yet again that the Labour Party

has failed to deliver, putting very clearly, that we are on the side of

those who have leased in our society and we are prepared to fight for

those people. APPLAUSE

You were talking as though you thought Cameron was going to win

this referendum. I think whether he wins or loses. You were talking as

though you thought he was going to win. Whatever the performance on

polling day, his whole strategy was that you can negotiate from strength

inside Europe. I bet nobody could tell us the six points on the little

sheet he brought back, what he had negotiated. The idea that that was a

strategy has failed. In a sense, that has collapsed the Remain

campaign, which is now run from Downing Street. And I do think, come

the day after, I would be very surprised if he has a long length of

life as Prime Minister. I would like to follow on from

Frank's point. He talks about people in society feeling disenfranchised,

isn't part of the issue that some of these people aren't registered to

vote, how do we encourage people to come out and vote? Neil Hamilton?

One thing Ukip's done since it became a mainstream political party

is to reengage people that have long since given up on the old parties

and stopped voting. A lot of people vote for us who haven't voted for

many, many years, if ever. Ukip in Wales in particular is now the party

providing opposition to the Labour Party, Plaid are effectively in bed

with the Labour Party in Government in Wales, if I can use that phrase.

Well, you did call... You just used it. You used the phrase concubines

which is frowned upon. Impregnable seats like Ebbw Vale and Merthyr

Tydfil, we got votes from nowhere in the last general election and will

take more votes like that. Can we come back to the referendum? Jeremy

Corbyn is a great disappointment to me. I was elected the same day and

voted with him in the lobbies many times on the European issues over

the years because I'm a long-term Euro-sceptic but may be the oldest

living Euro-sceptic having joined the league in 1967. So you see

Corbyn as an absolute confirmed Brexiter who can't afford to say it?

I think he's been kidnapped, by the establishment. No, no, no, no, no.

He was going to make a speech on Turkey the other day saying they are

demonising Turkey who should be regarded as a fully European country

and Turks should be able to come here without hindrance, as the EU

wants, and as David Cameron and the Conservative Government wants, and

he was pulled from making that speech for fear that it would scare

the horses and people... Let Liz Truss come in? There was a very

important point made about people registering to vote before the 7th

June. In particular, young people, because young people have the

biggest stake, you know. They have the longest future and will be

severely affected I believe if we leave and don't have those

opportunities any more. A lot of people today have been talking about

the facts that have been banded around. The reality is that, you

know, 90% of the economists that are asked have said this would make

Britain worse off. Rubbish... Well, there is a... Bogus statistics being

banded around. They are not bogus. Liz, Liz, this is the same... Your

leader, who I understand you are very keen on, Neil said that he is

He's as keen on me as I am on him. He said leaving the single market, a

worse economic outturn, lower incomes would be a price worth

paying. He's saying what matters is democracy. Democracy is what

matters. This is not the House of Commons! Don't shout at each other.

APPLAUSE. You in the third row? I would like

to pick up on something that Frank mentioned. Yes. Talking about the

day after. We've seen with the Scottish referendum and the

divisions that have been really deeply felt in Scotland and that

have reverberated in British politics, we have seen with the

example of the points scoring and the shouting over each other here, I

don't agree with what the gentleman behind me says about the - sorry, I

do agree about the point scoring but not necessarily about his point of

view. I want to stay in Europe because I can foresee a future for

myself and for my son where actually we need friends, we need to be

mindful of the global position that we are going to be in and the fact

that OK, it might be scary, it might be a step into the future that we

don't know about, but actually surely going in with more

cooperation, more understanding, more tolerance, I'm just really

fearful that the day after Britain will turn on itself. That people

will turn on on each other? Yes. The decision had to come and maybe

actually the arrangements for the referendum were incredibly rushed

and it's come as a surprise to most of the Populus and we probably

needed a longer run into this for people. OK, the next question? Are

David Cameron's days as Prime Minister numbered? Whatever happens

are David Cameron's days as Prime Minister numbered? Liz? Well, in

many ways, he's laid this path in progress, if you like, when he

announced before the last election that this would be the last term he

was stoning. You can see the timing of this, that these battles were

bound to occur because he said he wouldn't stand any further. To be

quite honest with you, we'll have to wait to see what happens on the 23rd

June and after that. Do you share her view, in the woman in the third

row, that the country will turn on itself because of the vehementness

with which this has been fought? It's interesting to see what

happened in Scotland. What was interesting is how much politics was

energised by this and we are seeing a livelier conversation than

previously. No-one's referred to this. The young lady down here on my

right mentioned this earlier on. We should be moving to include younger

people at the age of 16 to be voting on this referendum.

APPLAUSE. OK. All right, you on the right? Are

you over 16? I'm 17, so the referendum comes about six months

before my 18th birthday so even though I have an opinionated view on

the EU and know what I want to do, I still don't get a say. The proposal

to change the voting age was voted against by the House of Commons so

we talk about including young people, yet politicians voted

against the inclusion of young people. Not all of us did. Surely

that's also disenfranchising young people more because the polices

running the country won't let them have a say. Don't you have any old

relation that will lend their vote to you? Erm... Think about it? Can

you do a trade-off? Not exactly. The person there in blue? I do think

that after the election, if we do decide to stay in, it doesn't matter

who Prime Minister is, it's all about can they reform the EU and on

previous experience, it doesn't seem like they can, so I'm really Koon to

take that forward and see what reform can actually happen within

the EU. You in the checked shirt? Like Owen Jones has been saying and

the man said about reform, as Frank pointed out, David Cameron, with the

threat of Brexit went to Brussels and was still unable to negotiate a

good deal on our behalf. After we vote to stay if we do, what

negotiation power will we have then? If we vote to stay? Owen Jones, what

do you think? We shouldn't just leave to it the politicians. We the

people, the politicians exist to represent and serve us, people

campaigned on it and forced them to take action to leave the rubble. I

would like to see more people campaigning on issues like that for

democratisation and the rest. To go back to the danger of our country

going in on itself, it's a country full of anger and fury, fragmented,

the next generation feel they'll be worse off than the next. People feel

despair about politics. We have heard all the way through this

campaign a lot of fear and despair and we should make a pact after

this, whether it becomes to the European Union or the sort of Europe

we want or the sort of Britain we want. Instead of turning in on each

other, let's having a politics based on focussing on jobs, housing and

wages, because we are not being offered this. Liz Truss, there are a

large number of MPs who want to change the leadership even if he

wins by a narrow or even by a large figure. What do you think will

happen? I don't think that is true. David Cameron's been an incredibly

successful Prime Minister, an incredibly successful leader of the

Conservative Party. Why is it said that Cameron's at odds with half the

party? We have a big agenda of association reform. Most of my

generation, I went into Parliament in 2010, we have a new generation in

2015 as well. We came into politics to see our position as a country to

improve, to reform ours society, to help people get on in life. That's

what motivates us, you know. I don't get out of bed in the morning to

think about Europe, I think about how to make Britain a more

successful country, to reform our education to give people like

Frank's constituents more opportunities. That's what I'm

excited by and frankly on 24th June, I want us to vote to remain in the

EU and then I want us to get on with what is really important, some of

the key challenges we have been talking about like housing,

education, health. But do you think it was necessary, because the woman

in the third row is suggesting this referendum only came about to heel

divisions in the Tory party. Do you think it's necessary to have this

referendum? There was a very good point made earlier by another

audience member saying this is an issue that has been festering in our

country, there's been discontent. I agree Europe does need further

reform. I'm committed the achieving that and we are working and I've

explained the types of things we are dog to achieve that. I think it's

important we have this debate and I think it's a healthy debate.

I would also like to get out of bed in the morning and not have to think

about the EU. APPLAUSE.

I think we can all agree with that. Liberation is on its way! Neil

Hamilton? Well, I think David Cameron is a pretty pointless

individual. He's had about as much influence on events as a court

bobbing on the water, he goes with the tide. In a brief moment of

candour after he became Tory leader, he described himself as the heir to

Blair. The bottom fell out of the market in Blairs long ago so we

haven't heard him mention that. The tragedy of David Cameron is, he

doesn't really have many strong views on anything. I went into

politics because I am motivated by strong beliefs, very different from

Owens, but he's gone into politics because he's motivated by strong

beliefs. I want to see passion, I want to see people who believe in

things, we all believe in different ways of improving the condition of

people and the people's lives. The people I don't understand are people

who believe they are there to sit on a chair and to get office rather

than when they don't know what to do with it.

20 second and, Frank? I think you are right. I sent it's the -- sense

it's the end of the era for the Prime Minister but you set the

agenda that it was necessary to have this referendum, it came with huge

dangers and whoever follows him, it's a crucial factor now to try and

unite the country. Whatever the decision is, and I think whatever

the decision is, both sides should accept it.

OK. Thank you very much.

APPLAUSE. So, we are going to be in Folkestone

next week, we have Chris Grayling, a Brexiter, Hilary Benn and Nigel

Farage, Ukip's leader in the UK, I should say, rather than in the Welsh

Assembly. In Wales. And the Daily Telegraph columnist Alison Pearson

on our panel. We are going to be in York the week after that. So there

are the Folkestone and York dates and, Nottingham and Milton Keynes

for the two special programmes, Nottingham and Milton Keynes, one

with the Prime Minister and one with Michael Gove.

Now, to come to this, you apply to our website or you call the number

Which is on the screen. Next Thursday, BBC News is running what

they're calling an EU referendum question day. We have been doing a

lot of this. But they'll be running a question day. If you have a

particular question you want to put to a BBC correspondent... And if you

can get out of bed to put it? Yes, you can get in touch through any of

the news programmes or at BBC/referendum. EU referendum

question day next Thursday and there'll be Question Time as well of

course. If you are listening on Five Live radio there's Question Time

extra time, but thanks to the panel, thank you very much inteed for

coming here and to all of you who came to Cardiff to take part. Until

next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.