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This is Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:03 | |
Good evening and welcome, whether you're watching on TV, | 0:00:11 | 0:00:13 | |
listening on Radio 5 Live, here in the audience. | 0:00:13 | 0:00:17 | |
Welcome to our panel. | 0:00:17 | 0:00:18 | |
Tonight, the former leader of the Labour Party, Ed Miliband, | 0:00:18 | 0:00:21 | |
in his first appearance on Question Time | 0:00:21 | 0:00:23 | |
since last year's election. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
The Conservative former Europe Minister | 0:00:25 | 0:00:27 | |
and chairman of the party, campaigning for Brexit, David Davis. | 0:00:27 | 0:00:32 | |
The Green Party's former and maybe future, leader, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:36 | |
Caroline Lucas. | 0:00:36 | 0:00:38 | |
David Cameron's close political ally for many years, | 0:00:38 | 0:00:40 | |
maybe slightly less now that he's urging Brexit, | 0:00:40 | 0:00:44 | |
Steve Hilton. | 0:00:44 | 0:00:45 | |
And the crime writer with nine novels to her credit | 0:00:45 | 0:00:47 | |
and a Guardian columnist to boot, Dreda Say Mitchell. | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:52 | 0:00:54 | |
Good, thank you very much | 0:01:05 | 0:01:06 | |
and just before we take our first question, | 0:01:06 | 0:01:08 | |
remember, as ever, Facebook, | 0:01:08 | 0:01:10 | |
Twitter, texting 83981... | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
If you want to comment on anything that's said here - | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
do that and everybody will get to hear your views. | 0:01:16 | 0:01:20 | |
Now, if I can find the questions, which I have, | 0:01:20 | 0:01:22 | |
our first question tonight is from Mary Bird, please. | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
-Mary Bird. -Hello. | 0:01:25 | 0:01:27 | |
In light of the EU migration figures published today, | 0:01:27 | 0:01:33 | |
how on earth are our public services going to cope? | 0:01:33 | 0:01:38 | |
Ed Miliband. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:39 | |
Well, Mary, I think they can cope | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
but I think it obviously means that there are stresses and strains. | 0:01:43 | 0:01:46 | |
And this goes to the bigger question | 0:01:46 | 0:01:49 | |
of whether we should be within the European Union, | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
remain, or leave. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:54 | |
I understand people have concerns about immigration | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
but you have to look at the balance of the argument, here. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
And it seems to me the balance of the argument is this - | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
we know from official figures | 0:02:02 | 0:02:04 | |
that people who come here from the European Union contribute | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
about £2.5 billion more | 0:02:07 | 0:02:10 | |
in terms of taxes than they claim in benefits. | 0:02:10 | 0:02:13 | |
We know we've got 100,000 people from the EU | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
working in our public services, which you asked about. | 0:02:15 | 0:02:18 | |
-Now, on the other side... -Excuse me. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
I'm talking about schools, hospitals, | 0:02:21 | 0:02:23 | |
the transport system, | 0:02:23 | 0:02:25 | |
that's what I am talking about. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:27 | |
-Yeah, and there are... -They are heaving. | 0:02:27 | 0:02:29 | |
And there are 250,000 people from the EU | 0:02:29 | 0:02:31 | |
propping up our schools and our hospitals | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
and our social care systems. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
But...but, Mary, I hear it in my own constituency. | 0:02:38 | 0:02:44 | |
I don't deny there are pressures, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:45 | |
but I ask you and the audience to think about this. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:48 | |
First of all, economically, we are better off in the European Union. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:52 | |
The Institute for Fiscal Studies, a respected independent think-tank - | 0:02:52 | 0:02:56 | |
not the Government, | 0:02:56 | 0:02:57 | |
not the Governor of the Bank of England - | 0:02:57 | 0:02:59 | |
said this week there would be a £20-£40 billion black hole | 0:02:59 | 0:03:03 | |
in our public finances if we left. | 0:03:03 | 0:03:04 | |
Now, the question for you and the audience is - | 0:03:04 | 0:03:07 | |
and this is, I think, the answer - | 0:03:07 | 0:03:09 | |
let's use the money we get from being in the European Union, | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
the extra taxes, to relieve the pressures on public services | 0:03:12 | 0:03:15 | |
in Ipswich and elsewhere, but for goodness' sake, | 0:03:15 | 0:03:18 | |
let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, | 0:03:18 | 0:03:21 | |
leave the European Union, and make us worse off, | 0:03:21 | 0:03:23 | |
because that's, I believe, what would happen. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
On the Remain side, just briefly, | 0:03:30 | 0:03:31 | |
are you embarrassed by the figures that came out, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:34 | |
showing the second-highest on record this year? | 0:03:34 | 0:03:36 | |
-No. -You're not embarrassed by it? -Embarrassed? | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
You don't think it's difficult for the campaign, no? | 0:03:39 | 0:03:41 | |
-No. -All right, fine... | 0:03:41 | 0:03:43 | |
I think it is an important point, because I am the son of immigrants. | 0:03:43 | 0:03:46 | |
My parents came here as refugees | 0:03:46 | 0:03:48 | |
from the Nazis, from Europe, | 0:03:48 | 0:03:50 | |
from Belgium - my dad in 1940, | 0:03:50 | 0:03:53 | |
my mum, from Poland, after the Second World War. | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
They were European migrants. | 0:03:57 | 0:03:58 | |
They've made a contribution to this country. And, look... | 0:03:58 | 0:04:02 | |
So I think immigration has benefits. I think people make contributions. | 0:04:02 | 0:04:05 | |
We've got to use the extra income generated | 0:04:05 | 0:04:08 | |
to relieve the pressures that people here and elsewhere face. | 0:04:08 | 0:04:11 | |
You've said that. David Davis. | 0:04:11 | 0:04:13 | |
Well, he should be worried. | 0:04:13 | 0:04:14 | |
I mean, this country has been welcoming to migrants | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
for decades, centuries, | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
as, indeed, Ed indicates, | 0:04:20 | 0:04:23 | |
but welcoming to them in numbers | 0:04:23 | 0:04:25 | |
which we can cope with. | 0:04:25 | 0:04:27 | |
And 300,000-odd net migration every year, | 0:04:27 | 0:04:32 | |
a new city every year... | 0:04:32 | 0:04:34 | |
The questioner is quite right, Mary is quite right, | 0:04:34 | 0:04:36 | |
it overwhelms the ability of schools, hospitals, housing, | 0:04:36 | 0:04:41 | |
which we cannot change very fast, is overwhelmed. | 0:04:41 | 0:04:44 | |
Young people can't afford houses as a result. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
Ed says it makes more money. | 0:04:47 | 0:04:49 | |
Well, I'm afraid these numbers don't stand up. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:53 | |
Those numbers are based on the very real and proper calculation | 0:04:53 | 0:04:58 | |
that most migrants come here to work, | 0:04:58 | 0:05:00 | |
they don't come here to be dependent on benefits. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
So that calculation of how much benefit is claimed, | 0:05:03 | 0:05:05 | |
how much tax is paid, on that basis, is right. | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
But it does not take on board all the extra public services, | 0:05:08 | 0:05:10 | |
it doesn't take on board all the extra transport, | 0:05:10 | 0:05:13 | |
it doesn't take on board | 0:05:13 | 0:05:14 | |
all the other pressures on society that it creates. | 0:05:14 | 0:05:17 | |
That is not the fault of the migrant. | 0:05:17 | 0:05:19 | |
If I were Romanian, I'd be here now. | 0:05:19 | 0:05:21 | |
If I was a Greek, a young Greek, I'd be here now, | 0:05:21 | 0:05:24 | |
cos this is where the jobs are. | 0:05:24 | 0:05:25 | |
But it's the Government's responsibility | 0:05:25 | 0:05:27 | |
and this is out of control - full stop. | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
This is out of control. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
What the Government ought to do is to get this back in control | 0:05:32 | 0:05:37 | |
for the interests of the country | 0:05:37 | 0:05:38 | |
and, frankly, also for the interests of many of the migrants | 0:05:38 | 0:05:41 | |
and the only way that can be done is by leaving the European Union. | 0:05:41 | 0:05:45 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:05:45 | 0:05:47 | |
Caroline Lucas. | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
Well, in economic terms alone, if you leave the European Union, | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
you are looking at a massive loss of economic wealth to this country, | 0:06:02 | 0:06:06 | |
you're looking at a loss of jobs | 0:06:06 | 0:06:07 | |
and we can argue how much that figure is, | 0:06:07 | 0:06:09 | |
there are different estimates out there, | 0:06:09 | 0:06:11 | |
but when you've got everybody from the OECD to the IMF | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
to the Bank of England, all of them saying | 0:06:14 | 0:06:16 | |
that there will be a net economic loss to Britain | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
if we leave the single market, | 0:06:19 | 0:06:20 | |
then I think that's something that should give us pause. | 0:06:20 | 0:06:23 | |
But, you know, I don't want to sit here apologising for the fact | 0:06:23 | 0:06:26 | |
that membership of the EU gives us free movement of people. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:30 | |
I want to sit here and actually celebrate it | 0:06:30 | 0:06:32 | |
and I appreciate that might be controversial... | 0:06:32 | 0:06:34 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
But I think there is something rather amazing | 0:06:37 | 0:06:40 | |
about having the choice, for those people that do have a choice, | 0:06:40 | 0:06:44 | |
to be able to live and love and work and retire | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
in 28 different member states. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:48 | |
We know, of course, that many British people make the most of that | 0:06:48 | 0:06:52 | |
by going to Spain and many other parts of the EU, | 0:06:52 | 0:06:55 | |
just as people come to our country. | 0:06:55 | 0:06:57 | |
I do accept that the costs and benefits | 0:06:57 | 0:06:59 | |
are not terribly equally spread across the UK, | 0:06:59 | 0:07:03 | |
which is why I agree with Ed | 0:07:03 | 0:07:04 | |
that we need some kind of immigration dividend, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:06 | |
or a solidarity fund, whatever we want to call it. | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
But given that there is a net benefit that people are bringing, | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
not just in terms of our communities and our culture, | 0:07:12 | 0:07:16 | |
but a net economic benefit, | 0:07:16 | 0:07:17 | |
then let us use that money to be able to invest in the services | 0:07:17 | 0:07:20 | |
in areas that are under pressure. | 0:07:20 | 0:07:22 | |
So you think, in reply to Mary, | 0:07:22 | 0:07:23 | |
your view is that the public services can be funded properly? | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
I think if the political will is there, of course they can. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
But we can also look at parts of the country where, right now... | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
We have such centralisation in London and the south-east | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
that that puts pressure, irrespective of immigration. | 0:07:36 | 0:07:39 | |
If we had a more balanced regional policy across the country, | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
I think we could have all the benefits | 0:07:42 | 0:07:44 | |
and have less pressure as well. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:46 | |
Let's hear from the audience, then I'll come back to our panel. | 0:07:46 | 0:07:49 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:49 | 0:07:51 | |
The woman there, in orange, or pink, is it? There - you, madam. | 0:07:51 | 0:07:55 | |
Is it because the economic union is not working, | 0:07:55 | 0:08:00 | |
the European Union is not working, | 0:08:00 | 0:08:02 | |
that there are so many people that are out of work in Europe? | 0:08:02 | 0:08:09 | |
It's a broken club, | 0:08:09 | 0:08:11 | |
that so many people are actually coming to Britain. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
-You think the outfit isn't delivering? -Yeah. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:18 | |
Let's hold on to that point. | 0:08:18 | 0:08:19 | |
You in the blue shirt on the gangway. | 0:08:19 | 0:08:21 | |
Hold on a second, we'll get a microphone to you. | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
I don't think the debate about immigration in the EU | 0:08:23 | 0:08:27 | |
should be about numbers or economic immigrants, | 0:08:27 | 0:08:30 | |
if they benefit the UK or not - it should be about the choice, | 0:08:30 | 0:08:34 | |
and if we have the choice to control our immigration policy. | 0:08:34 | 0:08:38 | |
Even if we left the EU, | 0:08:38 | 0:08:40 | |
we could then choose whether or not we had mass migration. | 0:08:40 | 0:08:43 | |
If we elected a government | 0:08:43 | 0:08:46 | |
with a policy of immigration of hundreds of thousands, fine. | 0:08:46 | 0:08:50 | |
But at the minute, as a member of the EU, | 0:08:50 | 0:08:51 | |
we don't have that choice. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:53 | |
OK. Steve Hilton. | 0:08:53 | 0:08:55 | |
Like Ed, I am very pro-immigration, | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
and I suspect also because, like Ed, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:01 | |
my parents were immigrants to this country. | 0:09:01 | 0:09:03 | |
I owe everything I have, all my opportunities, | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
to the fact that this country welcomed my parents. | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
I am also an immigrant now from this country to America, | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
so I am very pro-immigration. | 0:09:12 | 0:09:14 | |
But precisely because of that, | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
I think we should be completely open on immigration. | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
Let me explain what I mean by that. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:22 | |
It is clearly common sense | 0:09:22 | 0:09:24 | |
that we can't have unlimited numbers of people coming to this country. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:29 | |
We all agree there has to be a limit, | 0:09:29 | 0:09:31 | |
there has to be a certain number beyond which it is not sustainable, | 0:09:31 | 0:09:35 | |
as we have heard. | 0:09:35 | 0:09:36 | |
So the question is, who comes within that limit? | 0:09:36 | 0:09:40 | |
What we have right now, through being in the EU, | 0:09:40 | 0:09:42 | |
is a situation where we have unlimited numbers of people | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
coming from Europe without any say or control over it. | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
What that means is that actually, | 0:09:49 | 0:09:51 | |
we are shutting the doors to people from beyond Europe | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
that could be fantastically valuable contributors | 0:09:54 | 0:09:58 | |
to our economy and our society, | 0:09:58 | 0:09:59 | |
people from China, or India, | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
entrepreneurs and scientists from all around the world | 0:10:02 | 0:10:05 | |
who are shut out because we have to take, | 0:10:05 | 0:10:06 | |
as I've put it, unlimited numbers of Hungarian waiters. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:10 | |
Now, I have got nothing against Hungarians, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
cos I am one. | 0:10:13 | 0:10:14 | |
But the truth is, we should be able to decide who comes to our country. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:19 | |
That should be a choice for us, | 0:10:19 | 0:10:21 | |
and as long as we are in the EU, it is a choice we can't make. | 0:10:21 | 0:10:25 | |
So you are saying the wrong kind of immigrants are coming? | 0:10:25 | 0:10:29 | |
I think it is a fundamentally undemocratic situation | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
where something as important as this is out of our control. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
I am with you, Steve, completely... | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
Hold on a second - OK. Dreda. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:46 | |
I'm with you completely. You know, we're all here, | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
it seems like we're all the children of migrants. | 0:10:49 | 0:10:52 | |
But when my parents came here in the '60s, | 0:10:52 | 0:10:54 | |
I would say they were quite unskilled. | 0:10:54 | 0:10:56 | |
So are you saying my parents shouldn't have come here? | 0:10:56 | 0:10:59 | |
Cos they weren't a doctor, they weren't a nurse. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:02 | |
Both my parents left school before they were... | 0:11:02 | 0:11:05 | |
My dad left school before he was 15. | 0:11:05 | 0:11:07 | |
-Would you bar the door to my dad? -I think that we need to have... | 0:11:07 | 0:11:12 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:11:12 | 0:11:14 | |
It's a great question | 0:11:14 | 0:11:15 | |
and I think the answer to the question | 0:11:15 | 0:11:17 | |
is that we need to discuss it, we need to have a policy on it | 0:11:17 | 0:11:20 | |
and we need to be able as a country to come to a view | 0:11:20 | 0:11:23 | |
about the answer to that question. | 0:11:23 | 0:11:25 | |
And it will always be the case, I hope, | 0:11:25 | 0:11:27 | |
that this country welcomes people who need refuge | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
from things that are going on around the world that are... | 0:11:30 | 0:11:34 | |
But I also think... | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
The question as well, is I think... | 0:11:36 | 0:11:39 | |
I hear what people are saying, | 0:11:39 | 0:11:41 | |
but I also think if you are talking about the pressure on services, | 0:11:41 | 0:11:44 | |
you have to dig deeper and talk about those services. | 0:11:44 | 0:11:47 | |
So, for example, with education - | 0:11:47 | 0:11:48 | |
what we know is happening at the moment | 0:11:48 | 0:11:50 | |
is we've got a massive shortage in terms of teachers. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
We've got teachers leaving the profession whole-scale. | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
Every time I meet a former colleague - | 0:11:56 | 0:11:58 | |
I used to teach in schools, for nearly 20 years - | 0:11:58 | 0:12:01 | |
they have all left. | 0:12:01 | 0:12:02 | |
So that is a big issue. | 0:12:02 | 0:12:03 | |
Another issue is in terms of the NHS - | 0:12:03 | 0:12:06 | |
why is it there have been huge cutbacks | 0:12:06 | 0:12:08 | |
in terms of training for nurses? | 0:12:08 | 0:12:11 | |
-APPLAUSE -We can't keep blaming migrants. | 0:12:11 | 0:12:14 | |
There are lots of issues running parallel to each other | 0:12:14 | 0:12:17 | |
and I agree with you, but we can't just have a policy about migration. | 0:12:17 | 0:12:21 | |
If you are talking about public services, | 0:12:21 | 0:12:23 | |
you've got to have a big, overarching policy | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
that looks at all the implications. | 0:12:25 | 0:12:27 | |
Dreda, what is your view on migration? | 0:12:27 | 0:12:29 | |
Do you think, from the EU, it should be unlimited? | 0:12:29 | 0:12:32 | |
I think... You know, cos my whole thing about voting for Leave | 0:12:32 | 0:12:37 | |
is that I've got a real issue with the EU and democracy. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:41 | |
I think it should be a democratically-elected government. | 0:12:41 | 0:12:45 | |
We live in a democracy, and they should have the right, | 0:12:45 | 0:12:48 | |
like with all other big policies, | 0:12:48 | 0:12:50 | |
to choose what their migration policy is. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:53 | |
I think it is wrong that somebody else chooses that. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:55 | |
OK. Caroline? | 0:12:55 | 0:12:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
Can you deal with that point, | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
that it's wrong that somebody else decides? | 0:13:01 | 0:13:03 | |
I'm saying the EU is made up of the Council of Ministers | 0:13:03 | 0:13:07 | |
where we do have our minister there on behalf of the UK. | 0:13:07 | 0:13:11 | |
We also have members of the European Parliament. | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
The EU Commission, which is not... The EU Commission is not elected. | 0:13:14 | 0:13:17 | |
The Commission is for civil servants. | 0:13:17 | 0:13:19 | |
But the EU Commission, nothing seems to happen without them. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
-They have to kick-start it. -Can I just finish? | 0:13:22 | 0:13:25 | |
..those meetings and seen what goes on... | 0:13:25 | 0:13:27 | |
I used to be a member of the European Parliament for ten years | 0:13:27 | 0:13:29 | |
and I have seen up close what goes on. | 0:13:29 | 0:13:31 | |
I can tell you that essentially, | 0:13:31 | 0:13:33 | |
there is more democracy, ironically, in the EU | 0:13:33 | 0:13:36 | |
than there is here. | 0:13:36 | 0:13:37 | |
At least your MEPs | 0:13:37 | 0:13:39 | |
are elected through a system of proportional representation. | 0:13:39 | 0:13:42 | |
We have a government here elected on 24% of the eligible vote. | 0:13:42 | 0:13:46 | |
The idea that that is somehow democracy is a complete travesty. | 0:13:46 | 0:13:51 | |
Steve, you have obviously been in, or sat in, | 0:13:51 | 0:13:54 | |
the Council of Ministers, have you? | 0:13:54 | 0:13:55 | |
-I've observed it. -Tell us about it. | 0:13:55 | 0:13:57 | |
First of all, I absolutely agree with Caroline | 0:13:57 | 0:13:59 | |
that there are serious problems we need to fix in our democracy. | 0:13:59 | 0:14:02 | |
I completely agree with that. | 0:14:02 | 0:14:04 | |
Could you have a word with David Cameron about it? | 0:14:04 | 0:14:06 | |
Let him have his say, now. LAUGHTER | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
I've had many words over the years on that topic, as well as others. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:12 | |
The point is that in the EU, obviously, | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
when the whole thing is run basically on a committee basis, | 0:14:16 | 0:14:20 | |
where you have 28 countries, and probably more, | 0:14:20 | 0:14:22 | |
everything is a negotiation | 0:14:22 | 0:14:25 | |
and that means that everything has to be a compromise. | 0:14:25 | 0:14:28 | |
Now, there is nothing wrong with compromise. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
Life is about compromise, government is about compromise. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:33 | |
But the truth is it should be the case that the compromises | 0:14:33 | 0:14:37 | |
are ones that we can get involved in, | 0:14:37 | 0:14:39 | |
that the people affected by those compromises | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
can have a say over what is the result. | 0:14:42 | 0:14:44 | |
-That is impossible if we are in the EU. -OK. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:47 | |
APPLAUSE The woman there... | 0:14:47 | 0:14:49 | |
Yes? | 0:14:51 | 0:14:52 | |
Returning to the original question, | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
GP practices within Ipswich are having to close their lists | 0:14:56 | 0:15:00 | |
because they are unable to take any more patients | 0:15:00 | 0:15:03 | |
because they have so many deep problems. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:08 | |
One of those problems, | 0:15:08 | 0:15:10 | |
and a very serious part of those problems, | 0:15:10 | 0:15:12 | |
are the number of EU migrants that are in Ipswich. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
It's a... | 0:15:14 | 0:15:18 | |
They can't cope with the language difficulties, | 0:15:18 | 0:15:21 | |
the numbers...it's just... | 0:15:21 | 0:15:24 | |
The system is folding. | 0:15:24 | 0:15:26 | |
You are talking of patients, not of nurses and doctors? | 0:15:26 | 0:15:29 | |
Patients, the number of patients. They haven't... | 0:15:29 | 0:15:33 | |
-They are overwhelmed by it. -Yeah. | 0:15:33 | 0:15:35 | |
I want to hear from somebody who's pro-Remain | 0:15:35 | 0:15:38 | |
on this point about immigration. | 0:15:38 | 0:15:39 | |
Yes, all right, you. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:41 | |
I worked in the NHS, I worked in Colchester, | 0:15:41 | 0:15:44 | |
since I left school. | 0:15:44 | 0:15:46 | |
Blaming immigration on the shortfalls of the NHS | 0:15:46 | 0:15:49 | |
is not true. | 0:15:49 | 0:15:51 | |
The NHS is struggling because of the Conservative Government cuts | 0:15:51 | 0:15:55 | |
made to the NHS, not because of immigration. | 0:15:55 | 0:15:57 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:15:57 | 0:15:59 | |
So, David, it is the Conservatives' fault. | 0:16:03 | 0:16:05 | |
It is always the Conservatives' fault, isn't it? | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:16:07 | 0:16:10 | |
Look, we were talking about | 0:16:12 | 0:16:14 | |
the pressures brought about by immigration | 0:16:14 | 0:16:16 | |
and we were also talking about democracy. | 0:16:16 | 0:16:18 | |
Let's start with getting a few facts straight. | 0:16:18 | 0:16:20 | |
I was there for a few years. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:22 | |
Caroline is wrong. The Commission IS the Government. | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
The Government in any country | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
is the one that initiates the legislation, | 0:16:27 | 0:16:29 | |
starts the ball rolling, writes the Act of Parliament. | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
It is the commissioners that do that. | 0:16:32 | 0:16:34 | |
And how do we choose the commissioners? | 0:16:34 | 0:16:36 | |
We choose people who their electorates have rejected. | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
Jean-Claude Juncker was rejected. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:42 | |
I appointed Neil Kinnock - | 0:16:42 | 0:16:43 | |
he was another one who the electorate rejected! | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
Let's be clear, this is NOT a democracy. | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
Why did you appoint somebody who had been rejected? | 0:16:50 | 0:16:52 | |
Why didn't you make a better choice, if you thought...? | 0:16:52 | 0:16:55 | |
-It was the right choice. -Oh, it was the right choice? | 0:16:55 | 0:16:57 | |
-Listen... -Hang on a moment! You can't say it's the right choice | 0:16:57 | 0:17:00 | |
-and then say the thing doesn't work. -The only way... | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
-STEVE: -The right undemocratic choice. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
You have not got any option - you can't elect a commissioner. | 0:17:04 | 0:17:06 | |
You're not allowed to - the Government nominates them. | 0:17:06 | 0:17:09 | |
It nominates - in those days - one from each party. | 0:17:09 | 0:17:12 | |
The Labour Party nominated me | 0:17:12 | 0:17:14 | |
and I said, "We can't block the Labour Party." | 0:17:14 | 0:17:17 | |
Let's come back to the point - the point here is about democracy. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:20 | |
Who knows best what our public services can deal with? | 0:17:20 | 0:17:25 | |
Who knows best how many nurses we need? | 0:17:25 | 0:17:27 | |
Who knows best how many houses we can build? | 0:17:27 | 0:17:30 | |
Our government. | 0:17:30 | 0:17:31 | |
Not some commissioner in Brussels. Our government. | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
-CAROLINE: -This is a travesty. | 0:17:34 | 0:17:35 | |
Which is why WE should control the number of immigrants, | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
and where they come from and who they are. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:17:41 | 0:17:43 | |
Ed Miliband. | 0:17:43 | 0:17:45 | |
I do say that the people for Leave in this argument, I fear, | 0:17:47 | 0:17:50 | |
are selling an illusion. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
I just want to say to this audience, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:54 | |
the problems we face as a country, not just migration - | 0:17:54 | 0:17:58 | |
climate change, terrorism, tax avoidance, all of those issues - | 0:17:58 | 0:18:03 | |
we can't deal with them on our own any more. | 0:18:03 | 0:18:04 | |
We've got to... | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
APPLAUSE AND SCATTERED BOOING | 0:18:06 | 0:18:09 | |
-Let me...let me... -AUDIENCE MEMBERS SHOUT | 0:18:09 | 0:18:13 | |
Let me explain what I mean by that. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
The truth is, these problems cross borders. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:19 | |
Powerful corporations cross borders. | 0:18:19 | 0:18:21 | |
Corporations, it's all about corporations. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
Here we go - it's always about big business, corporations. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:27 | |
Are we actually saying, David, that we, as a country, | 0:18:27 | 0:18:30 | |
the fifth-largest economy...? | 0:18:30 | 0:18:32 | |
-Ed, actually. -Sorry! Ed... | 0:18:32 | 0:18:33 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:18:33 | 0:18:37 | |
Ed, Ed - sorry, of course I know it is Ed, sorry! | 0:18:37 | 0:18:42 | |
I interrupted your stride, sorry. | 0:18:42 | 0:18:44 | |
-DAVID DAVIS: -I have the same problem... | 0:18:44 | 0:18:46 | |
-ED: -My mum makes the same mistake. | 0:18:46 | 0:18:48 | |
-LAUGHTER -We are the fifth-largest economy. | 0:18:48 | 0:18:52 | |
Are we actually saying we cannot do this on our own, | 0:18:52 | 0:18:55 | |
working in partnership with other people? | 0:18:55 | 0:18:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:18:58 | 0:19:00 | |
You said it exactly right, Dreda, at the end - | 0:19:04 | 0:19:07 | |
working in partnership with other people. | 0:19:07 | 0:19:09 | |
We're in a partnership with the United States. | 0:19:09 | 0:19:12 | |
Are we in a union with them? No, we are not. | 0:19:12 | 0:19:14 | |
Let me just.... Let's take a very concrete example, here. | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
We have four weeks' paid holiday in this country. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
We have equal rights for men and women - | 0:19:20 | 0:19:22 | |
not enough, but we've made progress on it. | 0:19:22 | 0:19:24 | |
We have maternity leave. Those things didn't happen | 0:19:24 | 0:19:27 | |
because of a Conservative Government or a Labour Government. | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
They happened because across the European Union, | 0:19:30 | 0:19:32 | |
you had countries joining together, | 0:19:32 | 0:19:34 | |
saying, "We are not going to let companies | 0:19:34 | 0:19:36 | |
"play one country off against another." | 0:19:36 | 0:19:38 | |
It is the same on the environment. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:41 | |
And actually, we were able to deliver those things. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:44 | |
-But we also, we also... -All right... | 0:19:44 | 0:19:46 | |
We also live at a time when we've got zero-hours contracts as well. | 0:19:46 | 0:19:50 | |
Is that good? What are the EU doing about that? | 0:19:50 | 0:19:53 | |
Dreda, hold on a second. I have got a lot of people | 0:19:53 | 0:19:55 | |
in the audience who want to speak, | 0:19:55 | 0:19:57 | |
and I want to hear from them, hold on a second. | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
And Steve Hilton has got a comment... | 0:19:59 | 0:20:01 | |
I've only been here since Monday and I'm already absolutely sick | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
of hearing, from the Remain side, | 0:20:06 | 0:20:08 | |
these silly scares and phoney figures | 0:20:08 | 0:20:11 | |
and overstatements of what people are saying. | 0:20:11 | 0:20:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:20:13 | 0:20:16 | |
THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
-That is the most... -Let me finish. | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
You're coming from your side of the debate. | 0:20:21 | 0:20:23 | |
Let me finish the point, please. | 0:20:23 | 0:20:25 | |
-That is the richest criticism I could ever imagine. -But Ed... | 0:20:25 | 0:20:28 | |
Your side of the debate. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:30 | |
But Ed... | 0:20:30 | 0:20:31 | |
To say what he just did, to present this as a choice between | 0:20:31 | 0:20:37 | |
total isolation and cooperation in Europe | 0:20:37 | 0:20:41 | |
is completely ridiculous. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:43 | |
Of course it's true that we need to cooperate on things | 0:20:43 | 0:20:46 | |
like the environment and terrorism and global issues, | 0:20:46 | 0:20:49 | |
and of course it's true that we can do that outside the EU, | 0:20:49 | 0:20:52 | |
as an independent country. This is a really serious debate. | 0:20:52 | 0:20:56 | |
It's complicated and there are many sides to it, | 0:20:56 | 0:20:59 | |
and I wish that the Remain side would stop simplifying it and | 0:20:59 | 0:21:02 | |
treating people like they can't understand complicated arguments. | 0:21:02 | 0:21:06 | |
All right. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:07 | |
We've got... We've got more questions about Europe, | 0:21:07 | 0:21:12 | |
and I'll come to them, | 0:21:12 | 0:21:14 | |
but I'll just take one or two more members of the audience. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:16 | |
You, there, first of all. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:18 | |
The largest comment against, sort of, remaining within the EU | 0:21:18 | 0:21:22 | |
seems to be all of this red tape, all of this democracy, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:25 | |
that isn't happening. | 0:21:25 | 0:21:26 | |
I just want to say, I'm not sure if I actually want to | 0:21:26 | 0:21:29 | |
hand back more power to the Government | 0:21:29 | 0:21:32 | |
that has made £12 million worth of cuts to welfare, | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
that has seen child poverty rise by £500 million or 500,000. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:40 | |
I just don't want to see that. | 0:21:40 | 0:21:42 | |
It doesn't seem like, if they get all this power, | 0:21:42 | 0:21:44 | |
-they'll be doing things that are for the people. -You think it's... | 0:21:44 | 0:21:47 | |
-They need someone to answer to. -APPLAUSE | 0:21:47 | 0:21:50 | |
Are you saying, in effect, you feel safer in the EU | 0:21:50 | 0:21:54 | |
rather than outside? | 0:21:54 | 0:21:55 | |
Well, like the non-discrimination and gender equality laws | 0:21:55 | 0:21:59 | |
that were spoken about, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:00 | |
how do we know that our government is going to protect those? | 0:22:00 | 0:22:03 | |
And also, I don't trust them to do it for the people. | 0:22:03 | 0:22:05 | |
You are absolutely right. You are absolutely right. | 0:22:05 | 0:22:09 | |
Woman in orange, there, please. | 0:22:09 | 0:22:11 | |
The woman in orange, there, yes. | 0:22:11 | 0:22:12 | |
The whole nub of the EU referendum is not the economy, | 0:22:12 | 0:22:17 | |
it's not migration. | 0:22:17 | 0:22:19 | |
We've got to consider what it's truly about. | 0:22:19 | 0:22:22 | |
What's at the heart of the referendum is - | 0:22:22 | 0:22:25 | |
do we want to govern ourselves? | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
I've got a question that I'll come to next, but let me... | 0:22:31 | 0:22:35 | |
You in the checked shirt, there, sir. | 0:22:35 | 0:22:37 | |
Caroline, wasn't your answer in your first response | 0:22:37 | 0:22:41 | |
to do with disproportionality? | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
So you talked about the south-east and London | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
having a great strangle on its services. | 0:22:45 | 0:22:48 | |
If you lift that argument up one level, | 0:22:48 | 0:22:50 | |
aren't you arguing with yourself? | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
Because we are part of Europe and there's a disproportionate | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
number of people coming to this country. | 0:22:54 | 0:22:57 | |
No, I think that-that people are going to many different countries | 0:22:57 | 0:23:00 | |
of the EU and the point I'm making is about subsidiarity, | 0:23:00 | 0:23:04 | |
it's about where power and democracy need to lie, | 0:23:04 | 0:23:07 | |
and there are certain things that absolutely need to be done | 0:23:07 | 0:23:10 | |
at EU level, in terms of tackling the environment, | 0:23:10 | 0:23:13 | |
in terms of tackling the issues of common workers' rights, | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
and that's why we need the EU. | 0:23:16 | 0:23:17 | |
This idea that governing ourselves, that essentially we are... | 0:23:17 | 0:23:20 | |
Do you not believe in democracy? | 0:23:20 | 0:23:22 | |
Do you not believe in democracy? | 0:23:22 | 0:23:25 | |
It's because I believe in democracy that I am supporting | 0:23:25 | 0:23:28 | |
the EU where there are issues... | 0:23:28 | 0:23:31 | |
that we cannot solve on our own. | 0:23:31 | 0:23:33 | |
All right. All right. | 0:23:33 | 0:23:35 | |
Let's end this section. Let's end this... Let's end this. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
Caroline, we've had 25 minutes on this. | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
We've got other questions that I want to come to. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
We've had quite a lot of people from the Brexit side. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:46 | |
Anybody from the Remain side who wants to comment? You do, there. | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
The man, there. Yeah. | 0:23:49 | 0:23:52 | |
-You're a Remainer, are you? -I am, yes. | 0:23:52 | 0:23:54 | |
All right. | 0:23:54 | 0:23:56 | |
I'd like to say that I believe Brexit have done a great job | 0:23:56 | 0:23:58 | |
in actually pointing the finger, wagging it solely at the EU | 0:23:58 | 0:24:03 | |
migration situation. | 0:24:03 | 0:24:05 | |
333,000 was the net figure today, | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
of which 150,000 were from outside the EU. | 0:24:08 | 0:24:11 | |
So if the hospitals are overflowing, why did we let in 150,000? | 0:24:11 | 0:24:15 | |
And the second point is - | 0:24:15 | 0:24:17 | |
the big danger here is, if we pull out of the EU, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
there is nothing to stop illegal immigration numbers rising | 0:24:20 | 0:24:24 | |
because there will be nothing to stop anyone in the EU | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
just saying, "If you want to go to the UK, | 0:24:27 | 0:24:29 | |
"just camp out in Calais, | 0:24:29 | 0:24:30 | |
"camp out in Amsterdam, and just come across to Clacton | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
"any time you like." | 0:24:33 | 0:24:34 | |
OK. Thank you. Another point from somebody who's a Remainer. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:38 | |
You're a Remainer, sir? | 0:24:38 | 0:24:40 | |
You're a Remainer, the woman there, on the end? Yes. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
Just coming back to the original question about... | 0:24:42 | 0:24:45 | |
-about services... -Good idea. | 0:24:45 | 0:24:47 | |
I completely agree with Ed that migrants prop up our services. | 0:24:47 | 0:24:50 | |
I recently very badly injured my shoulder. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:52 | |
About 80% of the medical professionals I have dealt with | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
have been not from this country. | 0:24:55 | 0:24:57 | |
If those people had not been in the NHS, | 0:24:57 | 0:24:58 | |
I would have had to have waited a lot longer to receive | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
the treatment that I've had, | 0:25:01 | 0:25:02 | |
so they do prop up our services and they make a massive contribution, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
and we will miss out on that if we leave. | 0:25:05 | 0:25:07 | |
Thank you. Right, we're going to... APPLAUSE | 0:25:07 | 0:25:10 | |
Before we take the next question, let me just explain Question Time's | 0:25:13 | 0:25:18 | |
progress in the next two or three weeks. | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
We're going to be in Cardiff next week, | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
we're going to be in Folkestone the week after that, | 0:25:24 | 0:25:26 | |
but in the final week before the vote, | 0:25:26 | 0:25:28 | |
we've actually got a special series of three programmes - | 0:25:28 | 0:25:32 | |
Nottingham, York and Milton Keynes. | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
In Nottingham, Michael Gove is going to be facing | 0:25:35 | 0:25:38 | |
a Question Time audience. | 0:25:38 | 0:25:41 | |
CHEERING | 0:25:41 | 0:25:44 | |
Can't get through these things. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:45 | |
Michael Gove is going to be facing | 0:25:45 | 0:25:47 | |
a Question Time audience on his own. | 0:25:47 | 0:25:49 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:25:49 | 0:25:51 | |
In Milton Keynes, David Cameron is going to be facing | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
a Question Time audience on his own. | 0:25:54 | 0:25:57 | |
And...in whatever's left - York - | 0:25:58 | 0:26:01 | |
we're going to have a normal panel. | 0:26:01 | 0:26:03 | |
Well, I say normal panel, we're going to have a big panel... | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
with the audience. | 0:26:06 | 0:26:07 | |
So there's Cardiff, Folkestone, Nottingham, York and Milton Keynes. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:11 | |
I'll give the numbers at the end, but they're on the screen now, | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
if you want to make a note, | 0:26:14 | 0:26:15 | |
if you'd like to come to any of those...programmes. | 0:26:15 | 0:26:18 | |
Right, let's go on... | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
though not necessarily very far. | 0:26:21 | 0:26:23 | |
Claudette Jones, please. Claudette. | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
Is it worth another two years of austerity to leave the EU? | 0:26:26 | 0:26:31 | |
Is it worth another two...? | 0:26:31 | 0:26:32 | |
This was the claim that there was going to be another two | 0:26:32 | 0:26:35 | |
years of austerity by the IFS, I think. | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
Is your view it is worth it or not worth it? | 0:26:37 | 0:26:39 | |
I'm currently undecided... | 0:26:39 | 0:26:42 | |
because there's so many forecasts that have come out | 0:26:42 | 0:26:45 | |
and it's difficult to know whose to believe, | 0:26:45 | 0:26:50 | |
especially when forecasts have to be based on a certain | 0:26:50 | 0:26:52 | |
amount of assumption and... | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
Because we don't know what Europe is going to decide, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:58 | |
how they're going to behave towards us. | 0:26:58 | 0:27:00 | |
If we do leave, it's quite difficult to... | 0:27:00 | 0:27:04 | |
To know... | 0:27:04 | 0:27:05 | |
All right, let's have a try with our panel. | 0:27:05 | 0:27:07 | |
David Davis, the IFS, as you know, | 0:27:07 | 0:27:09 | |
an organisation that Michael Gove said | 0:27:09 | 0:27:12 | |
-he had the greatest respect for... -Not any more. | 0:27:12 | 0:27:15 | |
..said there'd be an additional year or two of austerity. | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
Well, they're just wrong. | 0:27:18 | 0:27:20 | |
They didn't do any work of their own, | 0:27:20 | 0:27:22 | |
what they did was look at all the other surveys that had taken place, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:26 | |
and I'm afraid the establishment, | 0:27:26 | 0:27:27 | |
the international establishment in particular, | 0:27:27 | 0:27:29 | |
is caught in a sort of group thing. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
These are the people, remember, who were all in favour of the euro, | 0:27:31 | 0:27:34 | |
the IMF and the Treasury and all that. | 0:27:34 | 0:27:37 | |
They were... They never saw the 2008 financial crisis coming. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
In fact, they helped cause it. | 0:27:40 | 0:27:42 | |
The IMF, in particular, didn't even handle the Greek crisis very well. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:47 | |
These are people who are holding themselves up as authorities. | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
The Treasury tried to stop us going into the euro. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
Er...eventually. | 0:27:53 | 0:27:54 | |
They made the conditions that stopped Brown going in. | 0:27:54 | 0:27:57 | |
-No, no, wait a minute. -And that stopped Blair going in. | 0:27:57 | 0:27:59 | |
Yet again, I was there and you weren't. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:01 | |
-AUDIENCE: -Ooh! | 0:28:01 | 0:28:03 | |
Ooh! | 0:28:03 | 0:28:05 | |
Ooh! I read the papers. | 0:28:05 | 0:28:07 | |
You read... | 0:28:07 | 0:28:08 | |
If you challenge me, let me just say my understanding of the story. | 0:28:08 | 0:28:12 | |
-I was there, actually. -And you were there. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:14 | |
There was a feeling that Tony Blair wanted to go into the euro, | 0:28:14 | 0:28:16 | |
that Gordon Brown didn't. It's true, isn't it? | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
More or less true, yes. | 0:28:19 | 0:28:20 | |
More or less true. And the Treasury came up with the conditions. | 0:28:20 | 0:28:23 | |
The opt-out in the first place was created by John Major's government | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
many years before - | 0:28:26 | 0:28:27 | |
you wouldn't have had the choice had it not been for them - | 0:28:27 | 0:28:30 | |
and the reason the opt-out was created was because | 0:28:30 | 0:28:32 | |
of the mistake made by the Treasury on the ERM. Remember the ERM crisis? | 0:28:32 | 0:28:36 | |
That's what led to that. That was another mistake these people made. | 0:28:36 | 0:28:39 | |
But you say the Treasury wanted us to go into the euro. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
-No, you said that. -No, I didn't say that. You said that. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
-I said these people wanted it. -Including the Treasury. | 0:28:44 | 0:28:46 | |
Well, let's leave this one. | 0:28:46 | 0:28:48 | |
-Call it a draw. -No, we won't call it a draw. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:50 | |
-LAUGHTER -I haven't finished yet. | 0:28:50 | 0:28:53 | |
The simple truth here is that the assumption being made | 0:28:53 | 0:28:58 | |
behind all these gloomy, frightening stories | 0:28:58 | 0:29:02 | |
is that one - we're going to lose lots of trade | 0:29:02 | 0:29:04 | |
with the European Union. | 0:29:04 | 0:29:06 | |
And two - we're not going to do any trade, or any more trade, | 0:29:06 | 0:29:10 | |
outside in the global world. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:11 | |
Firstly, of course we're going to get lots of scare stories | 0:29:11 | 0:29:15 | |
right up to the day of Brexit. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:16 | |
Go out in the street, look at the cars. | 0:29:16 | 0:29:19 | |
Count the cars. How many Audis? How many BMWs? | 0:29:19 | 0:29:21 | |
How many Mercedes? How many Volkswagens? | 0:29:21 | 0:29:23 | |
Germany needs us - we're its biggest market. | 0:29:23 | 0:29:28 | |
France needs us for wine and cheese. | 0:29:28 | 0:29:30 | |
The deal will be done in the next two years - that's the first thing. | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
Second thing, in terms of global trade, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:36 | |
the worst operator in terms of creating free trade areas | 0:29:36 | 0:29:39 | |
in the world is the European Union. | 0:29:39 | 0:29:41 | |
It hasn't got a deal with the United States yet, | 0:29:41 | 0:29:43 | |
it hasn't got a deal with China, it hasn't got a deal with India. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:46 | |
It tried for nearly ten years to get a deal with India. | 0:29:46 | 0:29:49 | |
It took nine years to get a deal with Canada. | 0:29:49 | 0:29:51 | |
Everybody else can do this in months or one or two years. | 0:29:51 | 0:29:53 | |
Small countries can do it. Switzerland can do it. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:57 | |
South Korea can do it. | 0:29:57 | 0:29:59 | |
So the argument that we are going to suffer is a scare story | 0:29:59 | 0:30:05 | |
based on a falsehood. | 0:30:05 | 0:30:06 | |
-So, to come back to your point... -APPLAUSE | 0:30:06 | 0:30:10 | |
A man called Stuart Rose, | 0:30:17 | 0:30:20 | |
who is the business leader of the Remain campaign, | 0:30:20 | 0:30:22 | |
was interviewed in front of a select committee... | 0:30:22 | 0:30:25 | |
One of the House Of Commons selects committees, | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
and one of the things he admitted was that | 0:30:28 | 0:30:30 | |
nothing would change very much at all for the first | 0:30:30 | 0:30:33 | |
couple of years anyway. | 0:30:33 | 0:30:35 | |
Secondly, he admitted that, actually, | 0:30:35 | 0:30:37 | |
wages would go up if we left the European Union. | 0:30:37 | 0:30:40 | |
Now those two things, to me, do not argue for a great recession | 0:30:40 | 0:30:45 | |
or a great penalty we have to face if we leave the Union. | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
And I come back to the point, we are leaving, we should leave, | 0:30:48 | 0:30:52 | |
because of recovery, control of our own affairs, | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
and we will run them better than they do. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:57 | |
That does not include a recession. | 0:30:57 | 0:30:59 | |
Ed Miliband, the... APPLAUSE | 0:30:59 | 0:31:03 | |
The Chancellor, this week, said that Brexit | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
would cost as many as 820,000 jobs | 0:31:09 | 0:31:12 | |
and the Treasury said that, by 2013, | 0:31:12 | 0:31:15 | |
Britain would be worse off by over £4,000 a year per household. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:18 | |
You've heard what David Davis said. | 0:31:18 | 0:31:20 | |
Do you support those contentions? | 0:31:20 | 0:31:22 | |
Do you believe them? | 0:31:22 | 0:31:23 | |
Yeah, I mean, they're in the broad range of conjectures | 0:31:23 | 0:31:26 | |
-and forecasts made... -What does a "broad range" mean? | 0:31:26 | 0:31:28 | |
-You mean it may be true, it may not be true? -Well, no... | 0:31:28 | 0:31:31 | |
Every respected independent forecaster has said, | 0:31:31 | 0:31:34 | |
"We're going to be worse off economically, | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
"worse off for trade, worse off for investment." | 0:31:37 | 0:31:39 | |
I just want to say something about the Institute for Fiscal Studies, | 0:31:39 | 0:31:42 | |
who came out with the report this week, | 0:31:42 | 0:31:43 | |
they have criticised Labour governments, | 0:31:43 | 0:31:45 | |
they have criticised Conservative governments. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:47 | |
Always, after a budget, they say, | 0:31:47 | 0:31:49 | |
"The Chancellor got this wrong, got that wrong." | 0:31:49 | 0:31:51 | |
The idea that they're part of a vast conspiracy on the Remain side | 0:31:51 | 0:31:54 | |
is frankly laughable, David. | 0:31:54 | 0:31:56 | |
This is an independent body that is saying, | 0:31:56 | 0:31:58 | |
"We are going to be worse off." | 0:31:58 | 0:31:59 | |
I also want to go to Claudette's question. | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
Claudette said, "Is two years' austerity, which the | 0:32:02 | 0:32:05 | |
"IFS said would happen, worth it?" | 0:32:05 | 0:32:06 | |
Well, my argument is it isn't worth it. | 0:32:06 | 0:32:09 | |
And let me just say one thing about why I think it's not worth it, | 0:32:09 | 0:32:12 | |
it's about young people. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:13 | |
All around the world, young people are kicking against the system. | 0:32:13 | 0:32:16 | |
So you might expect in this referendum, the forecast, | 0:32:16 | 0:32:20 | |
the polls to be saying, that young people will be | 0:32:20 | 0:32:22 | |
voting for out, they are voting for in. | 0:32:22 | 0:32:24 | |
I think we should think about the wisdom of young people in this. | 0:32:24 | 0:32:27 | |
Why is that? Because young people like the freedom to travel. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:30 | |
They recognise the world is getting closer together, | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
they recognise that we need to work with others | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
to tackle the challenges. | 0:32:35 | 0:32:36 | |
Which young people are you talking about? | 0:32:36 | 0:32:38 | |
This is my problem sometimes. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:41 | |
Sometimes we use the term "young people", | 0:32:41 | 0:32:43 | |
we're invariably talking about young people who were students, | 0:32:43 | 0:32:47 | |
who were part of the professional class. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:49 | |
No, we're not talking about that. | 0:32:49 | 0:32:51 | |
-I don't think... -Let me tell you... -No, Dave...Ed. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:54 | |
-Sorry! -She's done it again. | 0:32:54 | 0:32:56 | |
-I'm sorry - Ed. -Just go with "you there". | 0:32:58 | 0:33:03 | |
That would be sort of easier. They'll edit that bit out, anyway. | 0:33:03 | 0:33:07 | |
We never edit this programme. You're on guard. | 0:33:09 | 0:33:11 | |
I want to come to you in a moment | 0:33:11 | 0:33:13 | |
because you keep interfering, interrupting. | 0:33:13 | 0:33:15 | |
-Yes, I'll come to you. -I was interrupted, actually. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:17 | |
No, I was talking to the man with the medals on. Don't be rude. | 0:33:17 | 0:33:21 | |
I just think there's a whole thing about... | 0:33:21 | 0:33:23 | |
-My basic point about young people... -No, I'm still talking, Ed. | 0:33:23 | 0:33:26 | |
..is about working-class people. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:29 | |
I don't know, I'm thinking about the working-class people in my family. | 0:33:29 | 0:33:32 | |
They're not talking about, "I can't wait to travel to go off to Greece | 0:33:32 | 0:33:36 | |
"or Milan or wherever, Rotterdam, to set up some business." | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
What they want, what preoccupies them, | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
is ,"Am I going to have a steady job?" | 0:33:42 | 0:33:43 | |
"Am I going to have a roof over my head?" | 0:33:43 | 0:33:45 | |
-Yeah. -"Am I going to have somewhere where I come home for my family?" | 0:33:45 | 0:33:49 | |
"Am I going to have time to chill out and relax?" | 0:33:49 | 0:33:52 | |
So can we stop using this general term "young people", | 0:33:52 | 0:33:56 | |
and using a very stereotypical image of young people? | 0:33:56 | 0:34:00 | |
I'm making a very specific point. I've learnt not to trust polls. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:04 | |
But I can say that if you look at the broad range of the polls, | 0:34:04 | 0:34:08 | |
by three or four to one, young people, | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
and that's very large margins, are saying we should stay in. | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
Now, that's because they can't imagine a world where | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
we can't have visa-free travel across the 28 countries, or where... | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
Well, we didn't have it before, actually. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
-We didn't have it before. -We did. | 0:34:23 | 0:34:26 | |
-The truth is that I think... -Let's hear your point. | 0:34:26 | 0:34:30 | |
Before the EU. | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
Before Poland and the East European countries joined the EU, | 0:34:32 | 0:34:35 | |
you could travel without a visa. | 0:34:35 | 0:34:36 | |
-Not to Eastern Europe. -You could travel to the States without a visa. | 0:34:36 | 0:34:40 | |
You can travel to Japan, Dubai, you don't need a visa. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:43 | |
Not to Eastern Europe, you couldn't. | 0:34:43 | 0:34:45 | |
But not to the 28 countries of the European Union. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:48 | |
You never needed a visa for Italy. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:50 | |
No, but 28 countries of the European Union... | 0:34:50 | 0:34:53 | |
I want to go to you, sir, because you are disagreeing, | 0:34:53 | 0:34:56 | |
I noticed you, with the woman on your right about this. | 0:34:56 | 0:34:58 | |
And the question was - is it worth | 0:34:58 | 0:35:00 | |
another two years of austerity to leave the EU? | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
And you said, "Yes, it is." | 0:35:02 | 0:35:03 | |
-You think it is worth it? -Yes, it is. -OK. | 0:35:03 | 0:35:06 | |
So, you are not moved by the economic argument? | 0:35:08 | 0:35:12 | |
Well, may I say, David, as an ex-serviceman | 0:35:12 | 0:35:15 | |
in her Majesty's Armed Forces, I am a veteran, as you can see, | 0:35:15 | 0:35:19 | |
I served my Queen and country and I'm actually living proof. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:24 | |
I will be voting to leave the EU, along with a lot of servicemen | 0:35:24 | 0:35:29 | |
and ex-servicemen | 0:35:29 | 0:35:30 | |
because I am living proof that being part of this EU does not work | 0:35:30 | 0:35:35 | |
for people that are not in receipt of senior citizen pensions. | 0:35:35 | 0:35:39 | |
If you cannot... I lived in Spain since approximately 2000. | 0:35:39 | 0:35:43 | |
I was forced back to my country and I have it on a digi-recording | 0:35:43 | 0:35:48 | |
from a top Social Security politician. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:51 | |
"Malcolm, you are English, go back to England, | 0:35:51 | 0:35:54 | |
"we cannot afford to keep you and help you any more." | 0:35:54 | 0:35:58 | |
I had to leave my home behind and my wife-to-be. | 0:35:58 | 0:36:01 | |
I can't bring her back to this country with me | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
because she comes from Ukraine | 0:36:03 | 0:36:05 | |
and there's a lot of paperwork and money needed to do that. | 0:36:05 | 0:36:08 | |
So you're saying to hell with the EU? | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
When I went into the medical centre for my morphine, | 0:36:11 | 0:36:14 | |
there was a red cross put on the back of this Spanish card | 0:36:14 | 0:36:19 | |
and said, "It's not valued any more, you'll have to pay privately | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
"because you are not of pensionable age." | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
And I, among a lot of former military people | 0:36:25 | 0:36:28 | |
and serving military people, will be the voting to go out. | 0:36:28 | 0:36:32 | |
Caroline Lucas. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:33 | |
-I want to come back to Jean's point about... -Do you recognise that? | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
Hang on, we've heard the story. | 0:36:39 | 0:36:42 | |
A load of rubbish. I am living proof. | 0:36:42 | 0:36:44 | |
They do not treat us as European people, we are not equals. | 0:36:44 | 0:36:48 | |
Caroline Lucas, do you come across that kind of story? | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
I genuinely haven't come across that kind of story. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
I'm very sorry to hear it, | 0:36:53 | 0:36:54 | |
but I don't know that leaving the EU would make it any better. | 0:36:54 | 0:36:57 | |
I want to come to the point Dreda made, | 0:36:57 | 0:36:59 | |
because it's an important one, | 0:36:59 | 0:37:00 | |
when she said that the young people she knows are most concerned about | 0:37:00 | 0:37:03 | |
whether they'll have a secure job, | 0:37:03 | 0:37:05 | |
whether they have food on the table and so on. | 0:37:05 | 0:37:07 | |
It's exactly for those reasons I think we need | 0:37:07 | 0:37:09 | |
to stay inside the EU because that's how you get, | 0:37:09 | 0:37:11 | |
for example, basic workers' rights guaranteed. | 0:37:11 | 0:37:14 | |
Not just in the UK, but right across the EU, | 0:37:14 | 0:37:16 | |
so you don't have big corporations... | 0:37:16 | 0:37:18 | |
-Let me finish. -Of course, OK. | 0:37:18 | 0:37:20 | |
They don't get corporations trying to play off | 0:37:20 | 0:37:22 | |
one country against the other and bring down standards. | 0:37:22 | 0:37:24 | |
If you have your friends who are perhaps agency workers, | 0:37:24 | 0:37:27 | |
then it's because of the EU | 0:37:27 | 0:37:28 | |
that you've got common protection for agency workers. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
If they were pregnant, they're going to have better results | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
as a result of the EU in terms of protections for them. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
So it seems to me that the EU has done a huge amount | 0:37:37 | 0:37:40 | |
to make sure that working people are going to be better protected. | 0:37:40 | 0:37:44 | |
Don't forget that Boris Johnson wants to scrap the Social Chapter. | 0:37:44 | 0:37:48 | |
He wants to scrap all of those protections. | 0:37:48 | 0:37:51 | |
He has said... Boris Johnson has absolutely said... | 0:37:51 | 0:37:54 | |
He wants he wants to get rid of it. | 0:37:54 | 0:37:57 | |
Yes, I will come to you | 0:37:57 | 0:38:00 | |
but Steve Hilton, the Prime Minister says family holidays will rise | 0:38:00 | 0:38:05 | |
by £230, you have heard the other figures. | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
-Do you think they are all rubbish? -Yes, basically. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:11 | |
-I think... -You're a bit slow on that one. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:13 | |
You don't have to speak for him! | 0:38:13 | 0:38:15 | |
I have said already that I think I'm sick... | 0:38:15 | 0:38:20 | |
I think we are all sick of these phoney figures. | 0:38:20 | 0:38:23 | |
I want to come back to the question | 0:38:23 | 0:38:24 | |
because you used a phrase which is at the heart of this, | 0:38:24 | 0:38:27 | |
this discussion about what's going to happen. | 0:38:27 | 0:38:29 | |
The phrasing you used was, | 0:38:29 | 0:38:30 | |
"You hear all this stuff and it's difficult to know." | 0:38:30 | 0:38:33 | |
Those were your words. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:34 | |
That's right, and I'd go a bit further. It's impossible to know. | 0:38:34 | 0:38:37 | |
It is literally impossible to know | 0:38:37 | 0:38:39 | |
exactly what's going to happen in the future. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:42 | |
Now, I'm very clearly for Leave. | 0:38:42 | 0:38:44 | |
But I would be the first to acknowledge | 0:38:44 | 0:38:46 | |
that there are risks from leaving. | 0:38:46 | 0:38:48 | |
But please could the other side of the argument also acknowledge | 0:38:48 | 0:38:52 | |
that there are also risks from staying? | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
Because the EU right now, for example, | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
is one of the worst-performing economic areas in the world. | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
It's basically a sinking ship, economically. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
There is a risk to us from being associated with that. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:06 | |
The truth is, the future is a risk. | 0:39:06 | 0:39:09 | |
We don't know what's going to happen in the future. | 0:39:09 | 0:39:11 | |
And not just the next few years, | 0:39:11 | 0:39:13 | |
but the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years. | 0:39:13 | 0:39:16 | |
We have no idea what's going to happen. | 0:39:16 | 0:39:18 | |
So the real question, given it's difficult and impossible to know, | 0:39:18 | 0:39:22 | |
is what kind of arrangements for governing ourselves | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
put us in the best possible position to cope with these future risks? | 0:39:25 | 0:39:30 | |
And, for me, the answer to that question is | 0:39:30 | 0:39:33 | |
a set of arrangements for running the country that allow us | 0:39:33 | 0:39:36 | |
to move quickly to address things as they happen and to have control | 0:39:36 | 0:39:41 | |
over the things that we want to do in our country and not have to | 0:39:41 | 0:39:45 | |
move at the pace of a committee of 20-odd other countries | 0:39:45 | 0:39:49 | |
and negotiate everything, so that we can respond | 0:39:49 | 0:39:52 | |
to an uncertain future in the decades ahead. | 0:39:52 | 0:39:56 | |
And that's why I think we should leave. | 0:39:56 | 0:39:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:39:58 | 0:40:00 | |
Has he won you over with that one, or not? | 0:40:04 | 0:40:07 | |
I think we've got a lot more information about the risks | 0:40:07 | 0:40:11 | |
that we would face if we stayed in | 0:40:11 | 0:40:13 | |
than those that we would face if we left. | 0:40:13 | 0:40:16 | |
-It feels like an enormous unknown. And, so... -OK. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:20 | |
Let's hear from some more members of the audience. You, sir. | 0:40:20 | 0:40:23 | |
Hopefully I can weigh in, because as a young person | 0:40:23 | 0:40:25 | |
who's in my final years of A-levels, hoping to go to university, | 0:40:25 | 0:40:29 | |
I think when you hear Remain politicians | 0:40:29 | 0:40:32 | |
saying "the young people", they don't really understand. | 0:40:32 | 0:40:35 | |
I'm from Felixstowe, which is a port town, | 0:40:35 | 0:40:38 | |
and we can see the direct effects of all this mass immigration. | 0:40:38 | 0:40:41 | |
My town doesn't look like what it used to | 0:40:41 | 0:40:44 | |
and I think one thing that you seem to be forgetting is | 0:40:44 | 0:40:47 | |
we have the Commonwealth, which is now a bigger trading block | 0:40:47 | 0:40:50 | |
than the European Union and, as the man said over here, | 0:40:50 | 0:40:54 | |
most of the countries there are loyal to our Queen. | 0:40:54 | 0:40:57 | |
They have the same culture as we do, the same principles. | 0:40:57 | 0:40:59 | |
I'm someone whose step-grandfather is from the Caribbean | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
who came over here to work. | 0:41:02 | 0:41:03 | |
I had the pleasure to go and visit the country of St Vincent. | 0:41:03 | 0:41:06 | |
I can tell you that they understand how we act as a nation | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
and we should feel fine about leaving the European Union | 0:41:10 | 0:41:13 | |
-because we have... -And favouring the Commonwealth? | 0:41:13 | 0:41:15 | |
Yes, because the Commonwealth is there to look after this. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:18 | |
Briefly, Ed Miliband. Just answer that point. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:20 | |
I think the interesting thing is that actually, other countries | 0:41:20 | 0:41:24 | |
want us to be in the European Union because liaising with us | 0:41:24 | 0:41:28 | |
and trading with us, they then get a 500 million person market. | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
I don't think it's a choice between being involved with the Commonwealth | 0:41:31 | 0:41:34 | |
or being involved with the European Union, we should do both, | 0:41:34 | 0:41:36 | |
just like we should reach out to China and be in the European Union. | 0:41:36 | 0:41:39 | |
But lots of these other countries think one of the reasons they | 0:41:39 | 0:41:42 | |
can trade with us is because we're in the EU, not outside. | 0:41:42 | 0:41:45 | |
OK, you, sir, at the back there. | 0:41:45 | 0:41:47 | |
I feel that David Davis, like all Brexiters, | 0:41:47 | 0:41:51 | |
is wilfully distorting the economic picture. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:54 | |
Of course we'll be able to trade with countries in the EU, | 0:41:54 | 0:41:58 | |
but we'll have to pay tariffs. | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
All products will be more expensive for us. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:02 | |
Also, our companies, our businesses which trade in Europe, | 0:42:02 | 0:42:06 | |
like financial services, will have huge restrictions put on them | 0:42:06 | 0:42:10 | |
which will cause huge trouble to our underlying economy, | 0:42:10 | 0:42:13 | |
which will make all our public services less able to cope | 0:42:13 | 0:42:19 | |
with the problems that they already have. | 0:42:19 | 0:42:21 | |
And this is all for this, sort of... | 0:42:21 | 0:42:24 | |
..what...unknown benefit | 0:42:25 | 0:42:31 | |
of having...of us being in control. | 0:42:31 | 0:42:34 | |
And they say...he says he wants to be in control of immigration, | 0:42:34 | 0:42:39 | |
but there's no saying what the government of the time | 0:42:39 | 0:42:42 | |
will do about immigration. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:44 | |
-OK. -We could be in or out of Europe, | 0:42:44 | 0:42:46 | |
and we could just have just as much immigration. | 0:42:46 | 0:42:49 | |
So we should stay in and retain the benefits. | 0:42:49 | 0:42:51 | |
David Davis. | 0:42:51 | 0:42:52 | |
The first thing to understand | 0:42:59 | 0:43:00 | |
is there is no free market in services in the European Union. | 0:43:00 | 0:43:03 | |
They still haven't got one, after all these years. | 0:43:03 | 0:43:06 | |
-That is absolute rubbish. -That's the first thing to say. | 0:43:06 | 0:43:09 | |
Hang on, he said it was rubbish. Briefly, why was it rubbish? | 0:43:09 | 0:43:13 | |
The government, both Labour and Conservative governments, | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
spent a long time ensuring that the EU did not push down the City. | 0:43:17 | 0:43:25 | |
They did not impose EU-wide extra taxations on financial services | 0:43:25 | 0:43:30 | |
which would have benefited other financial centres in the EU | 0:43:30 | 0:43:35 | |
to the detriment of the City. | 0:43:35 | 0:43:37 | |
There are ways in which being out of the EU will hugely affect | 0:43:37 | 0:43:42 | |
the financial services industry, to a degree which is far greater | 0:43:42 | 0:43:47 | |
than all the so-called benefits on the other side. | 0:43:47 | 0:43:52 | |
There is no free market in services. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:55 | |
And that negotiation you talk about, | 0:43:55 | 0:43:58 | |
you can pick lots of them if you like, | 0:43:58 | 0:44:00 | |
when they had to bail out Greece, | 0:44:00 | 0:44:02 | |
we were supposedly not supposed to be involved in it. | 0:44:02 | 0:44:04 | |
We ended up paying out £840 million, £850 million, | 0:44:04 | 0:44:07 | |
as a result of being inside the system. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:10 | |
More to the point, and I think more importantly, | 0:44:10 | 0:44:12 | |
is this whole question of whether or not we continue to have access. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:16 | |
And I reiterate the point. | 0:44:16 | 0:44:18 | |
If we are outside the single market, we will have a deal with them, | 0:44:18 | 0:44:22 | |
just as many other countries do who are, a free-trade deal... | 0:44:22 | 0:44:26 | |
But it will have tariffs, David, it will have tariffs. | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 | |
Unless you're part of the single market, it will have tariffs. | 0:44:28 | 0:44:32 | |
-No, it won't. -Yes, it will. | 0:44:32 | 0:44:33 | |
If you had what's called the World Trade Organisation arrangements, | 0:44:33 | 0:44:40 | |
-the tariffs will go in both directions. -Yes. | 0:44:40 | 0:44:42 | |
They will be far more penal to the German car industry, | 0:44:42 | 0:44:46 | |
which sells a million cars a year here, | 0:44:46 | 0:44:49 | |
than they would be to us. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:51 | |
And the most powerful person in Europe is Angela Merkel. | 0:44:51 | 0:44:55 | |
And she's got a general election in 2017. | 0:44:55 | 0:44:58 | |
But even Angela Merkel cannot make a bilateral agreement... | 0:44:58 | 0:45:01 | |
Wait a minute. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:02 | |
Eventually, in the European Union, | 0:45:02 | 0:45:05 | |
what Germany wants, Germany gets, I'm afraid. | 0:45:05 | 0:45:08 | |
And there's also an election in France in 2017. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:11 | |
They'll have the same issue with agricultural sales to us. | 0:45:11 | 0:45:14 | |
So on that side, the argument is a very ill-thought-through one. | 0:45:14 | 0:45:18 | |
-Can I just interrupt you? -You are factually wrong on this, David. | 0:45:18 | 0:45:21 | |
Hang on, the head of the World Trade Organisation said | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
the UK would face an extra £9 billion in trading costs | 0:45:24 | 0:45:28 | |
if it left the EU. | 0:45:28 | 0:45:29 | |
-Is he right or wrong? -No, he's wrong. | 0:45:29 | 0:45:31 | |
He's making a guess about what will be the outcome of the negotiations. | 0:45:31 | 0:45:35 | |
-David, you cannot say... -Can I just finish the argument? | 0:45:35 | 0:45:39 | |
This negotiation will take two years at least to go through. | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
There's going to be... Of course, in the first few months, | 0:45:42 | 0:45:45 | |
there's going to be a degree of hysteria, | 0:45:45 | 0:45:47 | |
there will be, there's no doubt about that. | 0:45:47 | 0:45:49 | |
But then all of these countries have a vested interest, whether it's... | 0:45:49 | 0:45:53 | |
The World Trade Organisation has a vested interest? | 0:45:53 | 0:45:55 | |
No, the countries we are negotiating with, the group of countries... | 0:45:55 | 0:45:58 | |
Poland wants to sell machinery to us, | 0:45:58 | 0:46:00 | |
uh, the Italians want to sell fashion goods to us, | 0:46:00 | 0:46:03 | |
the Germans, cars and engineering goods, | 0:46:03 | 0:46:06 | |
uh, the Spaniards and French want to sell food and drink to us... | 0:46:06 | 0:46:11 | |
And they all have surpluses in our direction. | 0:46:11 | 0:46:14 | |
So they want to sell to us more than we want to sell to them. | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
-Can I just...? On that point... -I'm afraid... | 0:46:17 | 0:46:19 | |
-I'm afraid the negotiation WILL happen! -OK. -And... | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
-I just want to correct one thing that you keep saying. -But, no... | 0:46:22 | 0:46:25 | |
-Let Caroline have her corrections. -No, I want... | 0:46:25 | 0:46:27 | |
-Let Caroline make the correction. -All right. -Only fair. | 0:46:27 | 0:46:29 | |
I want to correct the point where you keep saying | 0:46:29 | 0:46:31 | |
that the EU needs us more than we need it. | 0:46:31 | 0:46:34 | |
Our exports to the EU are 13% of our GDP. | 0:46:34 | 0:46:38 | |
-EU exports to Britain are 3% of their GDP. -Yeah, we keep... | 0:46:38 | 0:46:41 | |
-We actually need them more than they need us. -We... | 0:46:41 | 0:46:43 | |
-You are being incredibly complacent. -CHEERING | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
-We... -Incredibly complacent. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:49 | |
We... We keep... We... This... | 0:46:49 | 0:46:53 | |
-This... -It's true, it's true! | 0:46:53 | 0:46:55 | |
No, no, no... Let...let Caroline speak! | 0:46:55 | 0:46:57 | |
The simple truth is that this negotiation | 0:46:57 | 0:47:01 | |
is going to affect every country. | 0:47:01 | 0:47:03 | |
They won't be doing a 3% deal, they'll be thinking about, | 0:47:03 | 0:47:05 | |
"What about my industry? What about this industry?" | 0:47:05 | 0:47:08 | |
We don't talk about the percentage deals we deal with, | 0:47:08 | 0:47:10 | |
we look at what it means for our individual industries. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:13 | |
And while we're at it, | 0:47:13 | 0:47:15 | |
the suggestion by Ed that, "Oh, well, we can deal with Europe | 0:47:15 | 0:47:18 | |
"AND we can have a deal with China" - we can't. | 0:47:18 | 0:47:20 | |
Whilst we're inside the European Union, | 0:47:20 | 0:47:23 | |
We cannot negotiate with China. We cannot negotiate with India. | 0:47:23 | 0:47:27 | |
-We cannot negotiate... -You've made the point. | 0:47:27 | 0:47:29 | |
-Of course you can. -We'd do a better job than they would. | 0:47:29 | 0:47:31 | |
David, you've spoken for some time. Let's just... | 0:47:31 | 0:47:33 | |
We must balance this up. Ed Miliband. | 0:47:33 | 0:47:35 | |
I mean, look, I think Caroline rather exposed David's argument. | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
But I think the other thing, David, that comes across is | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
it is a massive leap into the unknown. | 0:47:41 | 0:47:43 | |
I've read some of the things you've said about this. | 0:47:43 | 0:47:45 | |
You said we should be like Canada, | 0:47:45 | 0:47:47 | |
but then people pointed out that actually, the Canadian trade deal | 0:47:47 | 0:47:50 | |
has taken eight years, it isn't complete, it's got tariffs, | 0:47:50 | 0:47:52 | |
so you say, "Well, maybe we shouldn't be like Canada." | 0:47:52 | 0:47:55 | |
Today you're saying, "We'd be like Norway or Switzerland," | 0:47:55 | 0:47:57 | |
in a speech you made, but not really like Norway or Switzerland. | 0:47:57 | 0:48:00 | |
It's some kind of unique status that only Britain is going to have | 0:48:00 | 0:48:04 | |
and you can't actually tell us the country we're going to be like. | 0:48:04 | 0:48:06 | |
-Which country would it be like? -Well, that's... | 0:48:06 | 0:48:08 | |
-Which country would it be like? -That's because... | 0:48:08 | 0:48:11 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:48:11 | 0:48:12 | |
Just tell us the country! Canada? Albania? Norway, Switzerland? | 0:48:12 | 0:48:18 | |
The country we're going to be like is... | 0:48:18 | 0:48:19 | |
-The country we're going to be like is Great Britain. -Fine. | 0:48:19 | 0:48:22 | |
LOUD CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:48:22 | 0:48:24 | |
We have an enormous spending power. You know... | 0:48:24 | 0:48:28 | |
This is... This is... This is... This is... | 0:48:28 | 0:48:32 | |
-This is... -It's good rhetoric, but it's not an answer. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
-This is the standard... -I'm afraid it's not an answer, David. | 0:48:35 | 0:48:37 | |
This is the standard response. Every time... | 0:48:37 | 0:48:39 | |
-Every time... -AUDIENCE MEMBER HECKLES | 0:48:39 | 0:48:41 | |
-Every time... -Just say one country. | 0:48:41 | 0:48:43 | |
Just one country whose trading arrangements we'd be like. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:46 | |
It's a fair question. | 0:48:46 | 0:48:47 | |
Every time...every time we offer an example of something which works, | 0:48:47 | 0:48:50 | |
they say, "Oh, you're going to be like them." | 0:48:50 | 0:48:52 | |
So, for example... | 0:48:52 | 0:48:54 | |
-CAROLINE: -You haven't offered an example. | 0:48:54 | 0:48:55 | |
I have lots of examples. He's talked about them. | 0:48:55 | 0:48:58 | |
Switzerland, Canada, Chile... | 0:48:58 | 0:49:01 | |
You don't want Switzerland, though, really, do you? | 0:49:01 | 0:49:03 | |
What we're saying is other countries prove that things can be done... | 0:49:03 | 0:49:06 | |
But you can't name a single country other than Great Britain | 0:49:06 | 0:49:09 | |
whose trading arrangements with the EU we'll be like. | 0:49:09 | 0:49:11 | |
-I think that's really important for the audience. -All right. | 0:49:11 | 0:49:14 | |
There's no country in the whole world | 0:49:14 | 0:49:16 | |
that has trading arrangements with the EU which he wants to emulate. | 0:49:16 | 0:49:19 | |
Now, if that isn't a leap into the unknown and a massive risk, | 0:49:19 | 0:49:22 | |
I don't know what is. | 0:49:22 | 0:49:23 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE Steve Hilton. | 0:49:23 | 0:49:25 | |
I don't think that one's going anywhere, Steve Hilton. | 0:49:25 | 0:49:28 | |
I want to say something on trade in a second, | 0:49:28 | 0:49:30 | |
but just on this point of what's the alternative - | 0:49:30 | 0:49:32 | |
the best thing that I've read about this | 0:49:32 | 0:49:34 | |
and I can't remember who said it, | 0:49:34 | 0:49:36 | |
was that it is really the most stupid question out, which is - | 0:49:36 | 0:49:39 | |
-what's the alternative to being in... -Attack the question. | 0:49:39 | 0:49:42 | |
No, not the question here, | 0:49:42 | 0:49:43 | |
the question that YOU posed, which is - | 0:49:43 | 0:49:45 | |
what's the alternative to being in the EU? | 0:49:45 | 0:49:47 | |
-AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS OUT -Hang on... | 0:49:47 | 0:49:48 | |
The alternative to being in the EU is NOT being in the EU. | 0:49:48 | 0:49:51 | |
-ED: -Oh, for goodness' sake! -And most of the countries... | 0:49:51 | 0:49:54 | |
-And what does it look like? -It looks like... | 0:49:54 | 0:49:56 | |
It looks like no environmental policy, | 0:49:56 | 0:49:57 | |
it looks like getting rid of the Social Chapter, | 0:49:57 | 0:49:59 | |
it looks like having no workers' rights protected at EU level. | 0:49:59 | 0:50:03 | |
Well, most of the countries in the world are not in the EU | 0:50:03 | 0:50:06 | |
and they are doing better than the EU. | 0:50:06 | 0:50:08 | |
Now, on the trade question, um... I just wanted to offer... | 0:50:08 | 0:50:10 | |
-ED: -But can you answer the question that he didn't answer? | 0:50:10 | 0:50:13 | |
-Which is... -He's got it right! | 0:50:13 | 0:50:15 | |
The country that we'd be like is our own country, it's... | 0:50:15 | 0:50:18 | |
-DAVID DAVIS: -Absolutely... -CHEERING | 0:50:18 | 0:50:20 | |
It's such a silly... Honestly... | 0:50:20 | 0:50:21 | |
Please...I really, really wish that these politicians | 0:50:21 | 0:50:26 | |
would just stop treating us like idiots. | 0:50:26 | 0:50:28 | |
The point you're making is completely ridiculous. | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
-No, it isn't. -Of course it is. | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
-It's a very simple point. -We'd be like our own country! | 0:50:32 | 0:50:34 | |
No, but as we look around the world, Steve, it's a serious point... | 0:50:34 | 0:50:37 | |
As we look round the world, | 0:50:37 | 0:50:38 | |
with the different trading arrangements, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:40 | |
because trade is fundamental to this, | 0:50:40 | 0:50:42 | |
what country do we want to emulate when it comes to our relationship | 0:50:42 | 0:50:45 | |
-outside the EU with the EU? -It's the... | 0:50:45 | 0:50:47 | |
And there's no point in saying Britain | 0:50:47 | 0:50:49 | |
because we're in the EU at the moment, in the single market... | 0:50:49 | 0:50:51 | |
-MAN: -Not for long, sonny! | 0:50:51 | 0:50:53 | |
OK. Sorry, can I just, on the trade...? | 0:50:53 | 0:50:55 | |
All right. Just briefly, then I'll come to you. | 0:50:55 | 0:50:57 | |
There's a particular thing. I just wanted to offer | 0:50:57 | 0:50:59 | |
a perspective on this question of trading arrangements. | 0:50:59 | 0:51:02 | |
-All right. -Because there's a particular vanity | 0:51:02 | 0:51:04 | |
that I have noticed about politicians, | 0:51:04 | 0:51:07 | |
which is that they believe that the whole world | 0:51:07 | 0:51:10 | |
revolves around what they decide and what they do... | 0:51:10 | 0:51:12 | |
-SOME APPLAUSE -..and they think that | 0:51:12 | 0:51:14 | |
-the only good things that happen... -Is David Cameron like that then? | 0:51:14 | 0:51:17 | |
-Hang on a second... -Is David Cameron like that? | 0:51:17 | 0:51:19 | |
He's the exception, he's the exception(!) | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
The only good things in the world come from the decisions they make | 0:51:21 | 0:51:24 | |
and the rules they do and the things that they set up. | 0:51:24 | 0:51:27 | |
The truth is that our success as an economy, more than anything else, | 0:51:27 | 0:51:31 | |
depends on something that is known as comparative advantage. | 0:51:31 | 0:51:34 | |
In simple terms, are we designing and making things | 0:51:34 | 0:51:37 | |
that the rest of the world wants to buy? | 0:51:37 | 0:51:39 | |
That's within our control and that's the fundamental point here, | 0:51:39 | 0:51:43 | |
that WE need to make our economy more productive | 0:51:43 | 0:51:46 | |
by the policies that we implement here in this country | 0:51:46 | 0:51:50 | |
-and then that is what will lead to our success. -OK. | 0:51:50 | 0:51:52 | |
APPLAUSE Points of view... | 0:51:52 | 0:51:54 | |
I...I think that most people that are on the fence | 0:51:55 | 0:51:59 | |
need to make a calculated decision | 0:51:59 | 0:52:02 | |
and to do that, you need to calculate the risks. | 0:52:02 | 0:52:04 | |
At least the Remain campaign is trying to quantify | 0:52:04 | 0:52:08 | |
what it would be if we leave the EU. | 0:52:08 | 0:52:11 | |
But what I hear from the Exit campaign | 0:52:11 | 0:52:13 | |
is all this airy-fairy, "Follow me into La-La land" | 0:52:13 | 0:52:16 | |
type of conversations, and I... | 0:52:16 | 0:52:18 | |
I haven't heard anything... anything from you, | 0:52:18 | 0:52:21 | |
apart from Great Britain will be fine in the rest of the world. | 0:52:21 | 0:52:24 | |
You know, "We're going to be the Great Britain of old". | 0:52:24 | 0:52:27 | |
I haven't heard anything, any real argument against that... | 0:52:27 | 0:52:29 | |
Oh, not against that, but for that... | 0:52:29 | 0:52:31 | |
And Mr Davis, I have to disagree with you - | 0:52:31 | 0:52:34 | |
government doesn't know best, | 0:52:34 | 0:52:35 | |
because the Tory government dismantled the NHS perfectly well. | 0:52:35 | 0:52:38 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:52:38 | 0:52:42 | |
The woman in the back in red. We've only got a few moments left. | 0:52:42 | 0:52:45 | |
The woman in red there at the very back. Yes. | 0:52:45 | 0:52:47 | |
Something that none of the politicians here have mentioned | 0:52:47 | 0:52:50 | |
is the fact that the Germans have a black bank balance, | 0:52:50 | 0:52:56 | |
which roughly equals the sum of the total | 0:52:56 | 0:52:59 | |
of the red bank balances in the other 27 countries. | 0:52:59 | 0:53:03 | |
That, for me, speaks for itself. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:05 | |
-SOME APPLAUSE -Europe's good for Germany. -OK. | 0:53:05 | 0:53:08 | |
Um, and you, sir, up there. On the far right. | 0:53:08 | 0:53:12 | |
I just think Ed Miliband's comments are a classic example | 0:53:12 | 0:53:15 | |
of the Remain camp's position of doing our country down. | 0:53:15 | 0:53:20 | |
We are the fifth-largest economy in the world | 0:53:20 | 0:53:24 | |
and the sooner we get out, the better, | 0:53:24 | 0:53:26 | |
get our seat back on the World Trade Organisation | 0:53:26 | 0:53:29 | |
and get our identity back. | 0:53:29 | 0:53:31 | |
Vote Leave! | 0:53:31 | 0:53:32 | |
OK. And you. SOME CHEERING | 0:53:32 | 0:53:35 | |
The woman in grey there, yes. | 0:53:37 | 0:53:39 | |
You talked about the Remain campaign treating people like idiots, | 0:53:39 | 0:53:45 | |
when the Leave campaign has used | 0:53:45 | 0:53:47 | |
the most pathetic arguments for staying in. | 0:53:47 | 0:53:49 | |
Boris Johnson's talking about how big bunches of bananas can be. | 0:53:49 | 0:53:53 | |
-It's pathetic. -STEVE: -I agree, by the way. | 0:53:53 | 0:53:56 | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | 0:53:56 | 0:53:58 | |
I...I agree. I've talked about both campaigns doing that, | 0:53:58 | 0:54:01 | |
just to be clear. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:03 | |
We have a question. We don't have time to take it, | 0:54:03 | 0:54:05 | |
but perhaps the panel can comment on it - | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
whether scare stories are having a detrimental effect | 0:54:08 | 0:54:11 | |
on people's perception of politics, | 0:54:11 | 0:54:13 | |
And also, whether the Conservative Party can ever reunite | 0:54:13 | 0:54:16 | |
after the insults that they're hurling at each other. | 0:54:16 | 0:54:20 | |
What do you think? | 0:54:20 | 0:54:22 | |
Which would you like to ask? | 0:54:22 | 0:54:23 | |
Either question, I don't care which you answer! | 0:54:23 | 0:54:26 | |
Well, of course it's going to be difficult... | 0:54:26 | 0:54:28 | |
The perception of politics is being diminished by the exaggeration | 0:54:28 | 0:54:31 | |
and the Tory Party won't hold together. | 0:54:31 | 0:54:33 | |
I think, actually, that is a fair point, | 0:54:33 | 0:54:35 | |
that this battle, to some extent, | 0:54:35 | 0:54:37 | |
is diminishing confidence in politicians. | 0:54:37 | 0:54:40 | |
I think there's no doubt that's true. | 0:54:40 | 0:54:43 | |
And partly... It's not just British politicians, | 0:54:43 | 0:54:46 | |
I mean, I remember when Obama came over, he made his comments, | 0:54:46 | 0:54:50 | |
there was a very short sort of 5% blip, as people said, | 0:54:50 | 0:54:53 | |
"Oh, yeah. Oh, that-that frightens us." | 0:54:53 | 0:54:56 | |
But then about a week later, they said, | 0:54:56 | 0:54:58 | |
"Well, what's it got to do with him and what's he know anyway?" | 0:54:58 | 0:55:01 | |
So there was a sort of clear resentment, really, | 0:55:01 | 0:55:04 | |
at being told what to think and being told what to do | 0:55:04 | 0:55:07 | |
and having these huge and unfounded scare stories run. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:12 | |
-So, yes, I do think... -OK. | 0:55:12 | 0:55:13 | |
Steve Hilton, do you think the Conservatives | 0:55:13 | 0:55:15 | |
will be able to come back from an issue that's so divided them? | 0:55:15 | 0:55:18 | |
Uh, I do, um, because there are really important, big things | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
that the Government wants to get done | 0:55:21 | 0:55:23 | |
and that will go on afterwards. | 0:55:23 | 0:55:25 | |
But I also wanted to comment on the question about politics | 0:55:25 | 0:55:27 | |
because I think it is really worrying what's happening. | 0:55:27 | 0:55:30 | |
Um...I've talked earlier about the scare stories | 0:55:30 | 0:55:34 | |
and the phoney figures and all the rest of it, | 0:55:34 | 0:55:35 | |
and the fact that both campaigns, I think, | 0:55:35 | 0:55:37 | |
are making this far too simple. | 0:55:37 | 0:55:39 | |
But I think that what that really means | 0:55:39 | 0:55:41 | |
is that people just are turned off by the whole thing, | 0:55:41 | 0:55:44 | |
they don't want to go into politics at all, | 0:55:44 | 0:55:46 | |
they don't want to participate | 0:55:46 | 0:55:48 | |
and there's a point underlying it that I think is really important | 0:55:48 | 0:55:52 | |
for us all to understand, which is - why do they do it? | 0:55:52 | 0:55:55 | |
These are smart people. | 0:55:55 | 0:55:56 | |
They can see that what they're doing is ridiculous and silly. | 0:55:56 | 0:55:59 | |
Are they all smart, really? | 0:55:59 | 0:56:00 | |
They are smart and well-intentioned, | 0:56:00 | 0:56:02 | |
they're good people on all sides, they want to do their best. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:05 | |
And they know that this stuff is ridiculous, | 0:56:05 | 0:56:07 | |
even as they're saying it. And the question is... | 0:56:07 | 0:56:09 | |
Isn't that a bit rich coming from you...? | 0:56:09 | 0:56:11 | |
-I've owned up to my role in that. -You did that, didn't you? | 0:56:11 | 0:56:13 | |
-Completely. -Devil eyes, what was that thing, with Blair...? | 0:56:13 | 0:56:16 | |
Absolutely. Labour's tax bombshell, you'd pay £1,000... | 0:56:16 | 0:56:18 | |
I've been involved in all this stuff, OK, for years. | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
And I can now, with a bit of detachment, | 0:56:21 | 0:56:23 | |
see and own up to the fact that that has been a trend | 0:56:23 | 0:56:26 | |
that I think has been damaging, | 0:56:26 | 0:56:28 | |
and it's got worse and worse in this campaign... | 0:56:28 | 0:56:31 | |
-Hang on one second, I think... -We've got to stop. -I just think... | 0:56:31 | 0:56:34 | |
Very quick. AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS OUT | 0:56:34 | 0:56:35 | |
-Wait a second... -Very quick. -The thing is that, actually, | 0:56:35 | 0:56:39 | |
what they're counting on is that you are not sufficiently interested | 0:56:39 | 0:56:43 | |
in the serious arguments and that you will fall for it | 0:56:43 | 0:56:46 | |
cos they believe that you want simple, superficial things... | 0:56:46 | 0:56:49 | |
Yeah, well, the evidence... | 0:56:49 | 0:56:50 | |
You've got to show them that that is not true. | 0:56:50 | 0:56:52 | |
The evidence of the Question Time audience is the exact opposite, | 0:56:52 | 0:56:55 | |
which is people are absolutely fascinated by the arguments. | 0:56:55 | 0:56:58 | |
Exactly. But that's why they need to stop... | 0:56:58 | 0:56:59 | |
A very quick word cos we really are over time now. | 0:56:59 | 0:57:02 | |
Yeah, cos I'm the non-politician here, | 0:57:02 | 0:57:03 | |
I'm not even a Westminster insider | 0:57:03 | 0:57:05 | |
and one of the reasons that I decided to leave was, | 0:57:05 | 0:57:10 | |
all the politicians, they were just arguing amongst themselves, | 0:57:10 | 0:57:13 | |
and it was men, it wasn't women. | 0:57:13 | 0:57:15 | |
Men predominantly from down south. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:17 | |
Wasn't a geographical spread of people. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:19 | |
I turned my TV off and I went and did my own research, | 0:57:19 | 0:57:22 | |
-and that's how I got to the position that I got to. -OK. And, Ed... | 0:57:22 | 0:57:25 | |
-CAROLINE: -Can I...? -Yeah, very brief... | 0:57:25 | 0:57:27 | |
All right. Very briefly, 30 seconds. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:30 | |
My 30-second pitch is that I do think that this campaign | 0:57:30 | 0:57:32 | |
desperately needs more optimism and it needs more vision | 0:57:32 | 0:57:35 | |
and I want to say that I think it is actually quite extraordinary | 0:57:35 | 0:57:37 | |
that 28 countries, that until very recently, | 0:57:37 | 0:57:40 | |
actually used to try to solve their problems by fighting, | 0:57:40 | 0:57:42 | |
by bullets and bombs, are now actually trying | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
to find their solutions through discussion and debate... | 0:57:44 | 0:57:47 | |
Sometimes it might be a bit cumbersome, | 0:57:47 | 0:57:49 | |
-but actually, it's a better way of doing things. -OK. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:52 | |
Do you want to just say, "So be it"? You agree? | 0:57:52 | 0:57:55 | |
I agree with Caroline. Look, there has been too much negativity | 0:57:55 | 0:57:58 | |
on both sides of this argument. | 0:57:58 | 0:57:59 | |
World War III and Hitler on each side of the argument. | 0:57:59 | 0:58:02 | |
And actually, there is a positive vision of an EU | 0:58:02 | 0:58:06 | |
that works for people and is changed on climate change, on tax avoidance, | 0:58:06 | 0:58:10 | |
on prosperity, on all of those things. | 0:58:10 | 0:58:12 | |
I don't like the EU the way it is - | 0:58:12 | 0:58:13 | |
-we've got to change it and make it better. -OK, thank you. | 0:58:13 | 0:58:16 | |
CHEERING Right. | 0:58:16 | 0:58:18 | |
Thank you very much. | 0:58:18 | 0:58:20 | |
We've... I'm sorry, and I'm sorry, and I'm sorry... Um... | 0:58:20 | 0:58:25 | |
-DAVID DAVIS: -We've been trying for 20 years! | 0:58:25 | 0:58:27 | |
Our...our hour's up, unfortunately. | 0:58:27 | 0:58:30 | |
Now, we're going to be in Cardiff next week. | 0:58:30 | 0:58:31 | |
We have Frank Field for Labour, | 0:58:31 | 0:58:34 | |
we have Neil Hamilton, the former Tory MP, | 0:58:34 | 0:58:37 | |
now Ukip's leader in the Welsh Assembly. | 0:58:37 | 0:58:39 | |
And then Folkestone the week after that. | 0:58:39 | 0:58:41 | |
So, if you want to come either to Cardiff or Folkestone, | 0:58:41 | 0:58:44 | |
or remember the week after that, those three sites - | 0:58:44 | 0:58:46 | |
Nottingham, York and Milton Keynes - | 0:58:46 | 0:58:48 | |
go to our website, or you can call the number... | 0:58:48 | 0:58:51 | |
5 Live listeners, as you know, | 0:58:53 | 0:58:55 | |
this debate carries on to the early hours. | 0:58:55 | 0:58:58 | |
But here, our time's up. | 0:58:58 | 0:58:59 | |
I'm sad about it. | 0:58:59 | 0:59:01 | |
Our panel, I thank them very much indeed for coming | 0:59:01 | 0:59:04 | |
and to all of you who came to Ipswich or have come from Ipswich | 0:59:04 | 0:59:09 | |
to be here tonight, many thanks. | 0:59:09 | 0:59:11 | |
Until next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight. | 0:59:11 | 0:59:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:59:13 | 0:59:16 |