Browse content similar to 19/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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We are in the town Hall of Walsall in the West Midlands tonight, and of | :00:07. | :00:18. | |
course, this is Question Time. Good evening and welcome to you, | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
television, radio, everybody in the studio and our panel. The | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
Conservative Energy Secretary, Amber Rudd. Labour's Yvette Cooper, who | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
lost out to Jeremy Corbyn in last year's leadership election. Leader | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. A pity leader of Ukip, Paul | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
Nuttall. And the broadcaster who left Channel 4 News to be free to | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
campaign for radical left policies, Paul Mason. | :00:48. | :00:58. | |
Thanks very much. Just a reminder before our first question, if you | :00:59. | :01:05. | |
want to get involved in the debate, Facebook, Twitter and text. Push the | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
red button if you want to see what others are saying. Daniel Robertson | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
has the first question. Is it racist to want to leave the European Union? | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
This is in the light, is it not, of Pat Glass, Labour's shadow Europe | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
minister who was recorded saying of somebody who wanted Brexit and said | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
that the Polish were scroungers, that he was a horrible racist. That | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
happened today. Is it racist to want to leave the EU? Paul Nuttall. Not | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
at all. This is a window into the heart of the Labour Party, that this | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
was said. At the general election in 2010, Gordon Brown said something | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
very similar about Gillian Duffy, when he called her a bigoted woman. | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
And look, what we are saying, those of us who want to leave the European | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
Union, is that we want to enter the globe again, because at the moment | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
we are tied to the slowest growing economic bloc on the planet. It is | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
not racist to be concerned about immigration because we are talking | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
about numbers. The figures released today in terms of employment are | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
frightening. The fact that five out of six new jobs went to people who | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
were not born here, would seem to be putting British people at the back | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
of the queue. And we know from the ONS report last week that 800,000 | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
people came from the European Union last year, even though Government | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
statistics tell us it was only 250 7000. We are basically under a | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
deluge of people coming to this country and we need to control our | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
own borders. It is not racist to say you want to control your borders, | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
but the only way we will do that is by leaving the European Union on | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
June 23. That figure of five out of six new jobs in fact does include | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
half of them are people who live here already and they are British | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
citizens, just happen to be born outside Britain. So why give the | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
wrong figure? There are 5.2 million foreign workers in Britain, one in | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
six in the workforce. 2.2 million have come from within the European | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
Union. The problem with immigration is not just economic. We are finding | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
wages are being driven down in working-class communities, and the | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
Bank of England have admitted that is the case. But it is also the | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
social problem. When we can control immigration and numbers, people can | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
integrate sensibly. The problem is too many people are coming and | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
people are not integrating into communities. | :03:48. | :03:47. | |
APPLAUSE Let's come back to your shadow | :03:48. | :03:56. | |
Europe minister saying this man was a horrible racist because he said | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
the Polish were scroungers, a particular family. He has apologised | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
and it is not racist to want to leave the European Union. It is not | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
racist to be worried about immigration. Our concern is | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
particularly about dodgy employers who undercut wages and jobs. I think | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
something should be done about that. Where it is racist is some of the | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
things we have seen, for example, in the Conservative campaign against | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
Sadiq Khan, for being Muslim. I think you should always call out | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
racism and you can do so at the same time as having a sensible debate | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
about things like immigration. The trouble with what Paul has said is | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
that there is actually a bit of a con going on. It is playing on | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
people's fears and it is a con because what Paul has actually said, | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
if Britain pulls out of Europe, is that he would want it to be the | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
Norway model. I have not. Never in my life. You have said that. What | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
Norway means is that you would have free movement. If you have the Swiss | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
model you would also have free movement. There is a lot of false | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
promise that it would change policies of statuary if we pull out. | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
What I think is a serious problem is that you have had in the last few | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
days, you have had Nigel Farage talking about there will somehow be | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
violence on the streets, which is not dissimilar to what Enoch Powell | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
said years ago. We also had Boris Johnson attacking President Obama | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
for his half Kenyan heritage. And we have had Michael Gove saying that | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
somehow the country will be overrun by Albanian criminals. I think that | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
is playing on division. We know that the Leave campaign want to divide | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
Britain from Europe. Why, if you say that... Just a minute. We should not | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
be trying to divide communities from each other. That is wrong. Why did | :05:52. | :06:00. | |
the Labour campaign, then, in a leaked document, say that if the | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
question of immigration came up, you should move away from it, if it came | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
up on the doorstep? I have always done the opposite. You think that is | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
wrong? I think you may have asked me that before the last election. So | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
what? You didn't answer it then and you are not answering now. I have | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
always said you should be prepared to talk about immigration. I don't | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
think you should switch the subject. I don't think it is wrong to talk | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
about it. Whether it is about dodgy employers and exploitation, we | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
should take stronger action on that. That should mean stronger laws in | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
Britain against exploitation, because some of it, frankly, is | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
modern slave. It also means we should work with other European | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
countries to protect the rights of workers, defend them, rather than | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
getting wood of them and dismissing them as red tape, as some in Ukip | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
want to do, because that would make things worse. -- getting rid of | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
them. I want to go back to the point about it not being racist to talk | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
about immigration. We do need to acknowledge there are right-wing | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
political parties like Britain first and the BNP that are exploiting this | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
immigration debate to the point that it is fuelling horrific | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
Islamophobia, to their benefit, by saying we have so many immigrants | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
coming here from different countries. It even echoes the Enoch | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
Powell rivers of blood speech, or Margaret Thatcher talking about | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
aliens on our own street. It is alienating Muslims and people that | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
come here from other countries. With a climate where we need to be united | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
in the face of terror attacks, we are alienating people and making | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
them feel unwelcome, and the BNP are exploiting this. | :07:46. | :07:45. | |
APPLAUSE Being against immigration is not | :07:46. | :07:57. | |
racist at all. The problem is that the immigrants when they come, they | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
don't go and live in Islington or Morningside in Edinburgh, Saint | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
Davidsson Wales. They come to Walsall, to Wolverhampton, to | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
Toxteth. The schools are ready over crowded. You can't get a place at | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
the doctor. We are too full. Put up the shot signs. Paul Mason. I don't | :08:17. | :08:25. | |
think it is racist to want to leave Europe, because I want to leave | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
Europe and I count myself as somebody who has fought against | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
racism or iLife. The reason I want to leave Europe is because it is | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
impossible for the European to be a democracy. Simple as that. | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
APPLAUSE I don't care how much it costs. If | :08:39. | :08:49. | |
it was doing its job, it would be worth paying. I think we are going | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
to need more migrants. I also think we have educated take refugees. But | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
let's put this to one side and think about this European choice. -- we | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
have a duty to take refugees. I am very unlikely to vote for Brexit on | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
the day because I do not want to hand power to a bunch of crazed, | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
right-wing Conservatives. APPLAUSE | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
I do not include you in this. You are a non-crazed right-wing | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
Conservative. So this once-in-a-lifetime chance... I think | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
there will be another chance because the European Union is | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
disintegrating. Half of the governments of East Europe are | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
racist. Eastern European governments are coming forward with people who | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
want coalitions with the far right. How can this persist? For us to go | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
forward, I do not want Michael Gove and Boris Johnson given the chance | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
to shape written's Constitution in future with no election, no promise | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
of election, no further referendum on what deal we do. I will be | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
looking carefully at what the position is as I go into that ballot | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
box. So you might vote Remain? I might. There are things that Remain | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
can do to convince me. One would be to promise a -- an election within | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
six months of the referendum, so we can all decide on the future | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
relationship with Europe. That is democracy. The short answer is, no, | :10:23. | :10:31. | |
I don't think it is racist. I thought the point the lady brought | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
up is interesting, because she highlighted the real difficulty of | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
language in this particular debate. Because this is an incredibly | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
important, historic choice everybody will be making on June 23. So all | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
sorts of groups are piling in. There are racist groups piling in and | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
certainly they will vote to leave, and it does destabilise some of the | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
language taking place. It is important not necessarily to think | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
about who or which party will be in charge. This is a historic chance to | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
change or stay in the EU for the UK. It is not about individuals. If we | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
move away from individuals, perhaps there will be a few less insults | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
flying around. Would you promise an election within six months of the | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
vote? It is important to concentrate on the facts. This is another issue | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
I would take issue with Paul on. When he trots out these facts, I do | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
not think they are facts. Nine out of ten people employed in the UK are | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
British-born. His facts are different to mine. One of the things | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
we must be careful of is tabloid newspapers putting out headlines | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
that are not facts. I would urge you to check them yourself, particularly | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
on immigration. What do you say to the man at the top on the left, who | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
said that people come here, to Toxteth, not to Islington and | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
Morningside in Edinburgh. In other words, it is here that the schools | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
are overcrowded, the NHS is under pressure. His concern, I believe, is | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
that people come here without jobs to come to hand without | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
contributing, and that is one of the changes the Prime Minister has made, | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
so we can in courage people to come here only if they have jobs to come | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
to. They cannot collect benefits for four years. Is that an answer, sir? | :12:24. | :12:32. | |
It is not enough. According to the latest statistics come immigrants | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
contributed over 2.5 billion tax for 2013-14. Do you know why there are | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
so many immigrants and black people in Toxteth, because that is where | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
they were taken as slaves, when Liverpool was a slave port. No, it | :12:47. | :12:55. | |
wasn't. You are from Liverpool. Do you object to all the black people? | :12:56. | :13:03. | |
Many of your supporters do. I don't. They came after 1945 when we had | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
sensible immigration numbers. Between 45 and 97, up to 50,000 | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
people came every year, a sensible number so that people can | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
assimilate. You cannot do that with 800,000 people coming. Tim Farron's | :13:20. | :13:32. | |
turn, I think. Thank you. Daniel, your question, is it racist to want | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
to leave the European Union and to talk about immigration? No, it | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
isn't. I disagree with Paul, but I like him. I think he is sincere and | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
believes what he believes. I believe he is wrong, but not a racist. What | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
I think that Pat Glass and her remarks betray is that there are too | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
many folks on the Remain side who are running away from the issue of | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
immigration and migration. I will not do that. I will absolutely | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
categorically say that immigration to this country is by far much more | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
a blessing and a curse. APPLAUSE | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
-- a blessing than a curse. Figures today say there are 2.1 million | :14:17. | :14:25. | |
European citizens living and working and paying taxes in the United | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
Kingdom. A figure of close to 2 million British people living and | :14:30. | :14:31. | |
working or being retired elsewhere in the European Union. It is pretty | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
much give-and-take. We have this rhetoric about the damage that | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
migration has done to our country. Go to any A award and see who | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
makes you better, who is looking after elderly parents in care homes, | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
looking after our children. Migration is helpful and it | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
strengthens this country, and being in the European Union allows us to | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
move to other countries and others to come here. The fact that there | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
are so many people in this country working and from other areas | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
demonstrates the work ethic so many of these folks have and we should be | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
proud they choose Britain as their home. | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
I would like to address Paul and the gentleman about Walsall and | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
immigration and blaming social care. It is a farce. Social care in this | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
area is struggling because we are one of the biggest hit local | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
government councils for cuts. Next year, we've got to find ?19 million. | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
It's atrocious. Metropolitan councils have been kicked a hell of | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
a lot more than any of the others. Birmingham is the largest authority | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
in Europe and it has had massive cuts. We can't blame immigration. | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
We've got to blame the Conservative government and the cuts that are | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
hitting the most vulnerable and leaving people in crisis. Hold on. | :15:55. | :16:03. | |
Let's hear some more points. I'd like to completely disagree with the | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
remarks made by the gentleman at the top left. The US has been described | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
as a great melting pot where everybody is fused together to make | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
something better. Shouldn't we encourage immigration from the EU to | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
evade a demographic crisis? On the top right. Iron I'd like to take | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
issue with Paul Mason's comments about right wing Conservatives. | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
Millions of people voted Conservative in the last election. | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
It was clear there was going to be a referendum on the manifesto. Jo | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
Brand Conservatives generally, about 10 million people, as crazed | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
right-wingers is appalling. -- Jo Brand Conservatives. It is | :16:47. | :16:56. | |
appalling, the things you say. -- to brand. We now know what a ?35,000 | :16:57. | :17:05. | |
per year education at Eton buys you. It's the ability to stand up, to | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
insult your opponents, if you are not winning the argument to raise | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
ridiculous point about the EU banning banana bunches more than | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
three. If that doesn't work, you tussle your hair and green inanely. | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
If I paid ?35,000 a year and sent somebody to Eton and they came at | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
doing that, I'd be disgusted. We could do with less personal insults. | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
I'm talking about Boris Johnson, who has the based... I'm sorry, he is | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
debasing the rationality of this debate and you should be worried | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
that this guy could be leading your party if he wins the referendum. I'm | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
not worried about that. I am worried about the personal insults. A art, a | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
brilliant man, and you are focusing on somebody's education, rather than | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
the arguments. John Major was saying that the Tory right was adopting the | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
Ukip argument. This is what the Tories will become if the right-wing | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
faction get their way. It is this that frightened me above everything | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
else, less than Ukip. We don't know what these guys will do if they take | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
control of your party. It must be appalling for you, Paul. You long | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
for Brexit and you don't dare vote for it. We will get another chance. | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
This is the chance. One of the things that Boris Johnson actually | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
said before of this -- before this all started was that he would like a | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
referendum on the result of the negotiation. That would be something | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
that those of us who are worried about an uncontrolled right-wing | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
Brexit would like to see. You could deliver it, you are in the council | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
-- you are a Privy Council. People want to know the facts. There is a | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
reason you are straying away from Boris Johnson as an individual, | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
because he might be Lorne leader in six weeks' time. -- he might be your | :19:11. | :19:18. | |
leader. You might be leading a party, within six months' time. I | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
understand why Amber Rudd is saying she doesn't want it to be personal, | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
because it does feel it has become personal in the Tory party. I think | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
too much of this debate has been Tory politicians having a go at each | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
other. That is probably why we haven't heard enough about things | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
like workers' right in Europe. That is why, as well, we haven't heard | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
enough about them is like jobs in manufacturing in our industrial | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
towns. I have some sympathy with Paul. In the end, I don't really | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
care if two old Etonians want to have a slug out against the future | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
of the Tory party but I care if they are putting people's livelihood at | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
risk over a political game. We've got another EU question which arises | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
from this. Have you all had this booklet? It comes from this, and the | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
question is from Dominic. This is the electoral commission voting | :20:24. | :20:32. | |
guide for the referendum. The Remain campaign says that we... Who is | :20:33. | :20:42. | |
right? The Remain, every count that we put in, we get ?10 back. Leave, | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
put ?3 50 in and you only get half back. Somebody isn't telling the | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
truth. What Remain is doing is focusing on the benefits to the | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
economy, the fact that we get investment into the UK, because we | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
are part of the platform access to the EU. It is working out the | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
benefit, 10-1, of having that investment and access to the single | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
market. Leave are comparing it to how much it costs because they are | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
simply looking at the bill for being a member of this club, then netting | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
off the rebate and any other money that is the cost of what we get | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
back. They are not looking at the enormous benefits that we get from | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
the single market. And you think it can be costed ?10 for every pound | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
you put in? I have put -- spent 20 years covering economics and I have | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
learned not to take account of these figures. They are pulled out of | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
abstract thinking, equations that don't add up. In the end, people | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
have to take this decision on the basis, not of this mirage of facts | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
that we keep getting the media is bombarding us with facts and, the | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
more we get, the less we understand. You've got take a decision on the | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
basis of, do you believe in the institutions? Do you believe it can | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
be reformed and it can deliver what you want as British people on the | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
day, and then what the concrete consequences on the day of the | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
particular political leadership? If it cost us double what it says, if | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
it worked, it would be worth paying. My concern is... One of the reasons | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
the Tory right is so annoyed is because they are now getting the | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
treatment the Scots got during the independence referendum. They are | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
getting the whole of the official state apparatus, the Bank of | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
England, the Treasury, pumping out propaganda for Remain that has no | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
ability to be challenged. Those of us who have would like to see a | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
different outcome have no ability to challenge what the Bank of England | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
and the Treasury are modelling. Red everybody keeps asking for the | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
facts. All mason says that they don't mean anything anyway. -- Paul | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
Mason. Probably the only thing more depressing than the referendum and | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
the fistfight between two old schoolmates is the concentrating of | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
facts and figures. It doesn't mean they are not important. We've got to | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
make a judgment as to what is in the best interest of our country, as | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
individuals and families. Some things do stack up. The single | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
market is worth ?78 billion per year to the UK. We are net contributors | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
to the EU, to the tune of about 6.5 billion per year. You've got to work | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
out whether that is a good deal. I think it is. What I am desperate for | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
is something a bit more uplifting in this debate. The reason I will vote | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
to remain on June 23 isn't just the economy, it's about a statement of | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
what kind of country I belong to, what kind of country is Britain. Are | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
we outward looking? Or do we want to stand on the white cliffs of Dover, | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
glowering across the English Channel? I want Britain to be the | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
kind of country that is engaged with the outside world. We have built | :24:08. | :24:14. | |
piece over the past 75 years ago. There were nuclear weapons on their | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
soil pointed at the West Midlands and the rest of the UK. Today, we | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
work together. That is the kind of Europe I want my children to grow | :24:23. | :24:31. | |
into. A reminder that Dominic's question was about who we believe on | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
the money. I think we need to get back to the basics of the discussion | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
and get understanding what this is about. It isn't about personality. | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
It is about two basic things. Can we manage the country ourselves or will | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
we continue to be told from a group of 27 other countries what we can do | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
and can't do and how we should do it, but we've got to foot the bill? | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
Surely we could take the money back ourselves and make better use of it? | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
So you don't believe the figures? It's a lot of nonsense. Independent | :25:09. | :25:18. | |
is a perfectly fair question, but I think ignores the reality of the | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
modern world. The EU isn't the only way in which we pool our | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
sovereignty. Nato, the world trade organisation, the most democratic if | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
the EU. Talking about these leaflets, I am depressed by | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
politics. The EU referendum has shown how broken the system is. | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
Within parties, you've got infighting. One set of parties | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
saying one lot of figures. We are being lied to and there isn't a | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
genuine debate. The EU referendum has shown the ugliest side of where | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
politics is. It is the same people on either side of the chamber, to be | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
honest. To answer the original question... You are good at | :26:03. | :26:09. | |
answering questions. We are getting all sorts of facts and figures in | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
the ground. One economist will say one thing and then somebody else | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
will say the alternative. The ex-head of MI6 said we would be more | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
secure if we were out, others saying the opposite. This will go on until | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
the day. It will be up to you guys to make the decision of whether you | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
want Britain to be stuck within the slowest growing economic bloc on the | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
planet. He is saying it is a disreputable campaign in which | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
people are attacking each other in the way you have been describing and | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
experts saying opposite things. How do you restore confidence? I want to | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
get away from personalities and campaign on the real facts and | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
figures. It is costing us ?55 million every single day to be | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
members of the European Union. That is the gross figure. Hold on. Then | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
we get the rebate back. And then they give us a portion of money back | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
and then they tell us how to spend our own money. If you walk round | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
Wolverhampton or Birmingham, you will see signed up saying, thank the | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
European Union, this project was built with EU money. There is no | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
such thing, it's your money, your taxation, and that money should | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
stayed here to be spent on our schools, hospitals and transport | :27:30. | :27:37. | |
network. What is the economic cost of a disenfranchised population, as | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
expressed by the chat at the front? We are losing interest in Europe. We | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
got no influence over it. That will have an economic cost down the line. | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
Could you ask your question again, please? What is the economic cost of | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
having a disenfranchised population. The man at the front expressed it | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
well. I think people are feeling quite alienated from this whole | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
debate and everything being thrown around to and fro. If you go through | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
the facts, Paul did go further than a lot of the Leave campaigners by | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
conceding that actually they figured they use, this ?350 million, is | :28:17. | :28:24. | |
wrong. The statistics authority has said it is misleading and dodgy to | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
use it. Yeah, there is a contribution, and in return what we | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
get is access to the single market, and that makes it so much easier for | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
our businesses to trade. What you get on the other side is different | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
estimates, and they are estimates by economist based on a whole load of | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
evidence and analysis about what it would cost if we pull out of the | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
single market and how much trade we would lose. Is this right what it | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
says on the Remain site, for every ?1 we put in we get ?10 back? It is | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
an estimate by economists... One of the estimates. You were chief | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
secretary of the Treasury. Do you think they've got it right? I think | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
it is as accurate as any other. It is important, because it is | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
official. No body knows until you know what the trade deal is that is | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
done. Why put it in? People want facts so we do our best to give them | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
facts. Ultimately, it is a judgment. You don't say it is a judgment here. | :29:33. | :29:43. | |
APPLAUSE These are the facts that I believe | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
to be true but Paul believes different ones. There is one bottom | :29:48. | :29:56. | |
line. Your question was, what is the economic cost of a disenfranchised | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
population. We who are involved in public life should take that | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
seriously. I want to save the steel industry. I drive past Port Talbot | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
steelworks. It is a brilliant bit of structural asset for this country. | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
The European Union rules say we can't. That is basically what it | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
says. In addition, the European Commission itself has refused to | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
fight for the whole European Union steel industry in the world market. | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
If I could deselect the European Commission, believe me, I would. If | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
we could elect it and bring it under democratic control, that would be | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
good. But the treaty prevents us doing so and it prevents a future | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
Labour government from saving steel, it prevents them from nationalising | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
the railways, and this to me is the bread and butter as to why we have | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
to look critically at the European Union. And you will still vote to | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
remain? I am saying that the economic case for Brexit is strong, | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
as is the political, but the Brexit people don't need to be dictated to | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
by a Tory right about when and under what conditions we do so. | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
I think there is a lot of nonsense said about how the EU stops us doing | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
a lot of things. Often, the Tory government will use the EU as an | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
excuse not to take action on steel when it could have done. We have the | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
same issue around the coal industry in my constituency when the last pit | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
closed. EU said they would be able to help and the Tory government | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
said, we can't. Too often it is used as an excuse not to take action when | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
we can. When it comes back to the point about the facts, people will | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
throw different numbers at you but the bottom line in the end is that | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
the cost of trade will be higher. If we are outside the single market, | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
the cost of trade will be higher. They will give us a worse steel than | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
we have now. Why would they let us be in the club and give us a worse | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
deal? We deal with this subject every week. We have spent half the | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
programme on it. You can have one sentence, Tim, and then I will move | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
on. Not a long sentence. What we have seen in the steel industry is | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
the consequence of Chinese government actions and Indian | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
business decisions, proving that we are interconnected as a global and | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
we are far better off together with our neighbours standing up to those | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
economic threats than on our own. I am going to move on because we have | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
taken half an hour and I don't think it is fair if every programme is | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
entirely about the EU because we have a long way to go and a lot of | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
debate before we reach that date in June when Paul Mason has to decide | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
how to cast his vote. And millions of other people. We are going to be | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
in Ipswich next week and Cardiff the week after that. On screen, you can | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
see how to apply. Let's move on for a question from | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
Kevin Wilkes. After the junior doctors debacle, isn't it time for | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
the NHS to be run independently, rather than continually being a | :33:22. | :33:31. | |
political football? Tim Farron. It is certainly time for it to stop | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
being used as a political football, to answer your question | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
specifically. If Beveridge, the Liberal, who wrote the blueprint for | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
the National Health Service in the 1940s, if in his day we had been | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
living to the ages we are now, there is no question whatsoever that he | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
would have included social care in with the National Health Service. | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
The fact that it is disconnected from the National Health Service has | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
to be addressed, as does the relegation of mental health services | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
behind physical health services. We should be massively proud of the | :34:06. | :34:07. | |
National Health Service but let's not kid ourselves that we are | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
spending enough on it. We are not. We spend less as a percentage of GDP | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
on our health service than most other European countries. It is time | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
for a new Beveridge deal for all parties, to put aside the | :34:23. | :34:24. | |
politicking over the National Health Service and recognise we need that | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
new deal to protect it for the future. It is no good putting the | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
emphasis on junior doctors, as has happened, to try and stretch out the | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
resource so the government can meet a commitment it could never meet. It | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
is time for a new resource, a new deal for the National Health | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Service, including mental health and social care. | :34:45. | :34:45. | |
APPLAUSE You are talking about finding more | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
money for the NHS. In the end, that is necessary. The question is about | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
whether it can be taken out of politics. Is that what you meant? I | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
agree with everything said about bringing in social care and mental | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
health, but for as long as I can a member, Labour have obviously thrown | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
accusations at the Tories about looking to privatise and cut | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
everywhere. It has been gone back the other way, Labour being accused | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
of wasting money and spending on middle management. It is something | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
both sides of the quite heart always fighting each other over. What | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
should really be happening is people who know how to run the NHS and how | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
to run these things should be in place. They should be given whatever | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
money they need and allowed to run it. | :35:38. | :35:37. | |
APPLAUSE I work in the NHS. When I joined, | :35:38. | :35:49. | |
the first thing I was told was that every time a new political party | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
joins it will change and it will go around in circles and we will waste | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
a lot of money, and when the Primary Care Trusts went down, the e-mail | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
address is changed and it was the same people. Incredible waste of | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
money. Jeremy Hunt should resign for his treatment of junior doctors. It | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
is appalling. They are hard workers and do not deserve what the | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
Conservatives have done to them. Shame. He should resign. | :36:19. | :36:20. | |
APPLAUSE Amber Rudd. Jeremy Hunt should go. | :36:21. | :36:30. | |
Naturally, I don't agree with that and I would congratulate the | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
combination of Jeremy Hunt and a junior doctors and the BMA on coming | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
to an agreement today. The lies, the lies. Don't you welcome the fact | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
that the dispute is now, we have, over. The fact is, we made a | :36:44. | :36:52. | |
manifesto commitment to deliver a seven-day NHS. Through lies, misuse | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
of statistics. An agreement has been reached and it is a relief. Why has | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
he waited so many months to do it? APPLAUSE | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
There is a Chief Executive of the NHS and he was put in place in order | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
to take it out of being a political football so he could put together | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
the plan, which he did, under the last Government, to say how much | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
money was needed. He said how much was needed and that is why we have | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
put it up so it can be done. Can I say, the real difference between a | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
Conservative government and a Labour government is that we have a strong | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
economy that is enabling us to put in that 10 billion. The finances we | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
inherited from you in 2010 were such a disaster there would have been no | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
chance to be able to deliver on the strong NHS that we are now able to | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
finance because we have a stronger economy. Let's deal with the | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
original question which was, OK, you obviously need wealth to fund the | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
NHS, whichever party is in power. The question was why can it not be | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
run independently, in other words, give money to it independently? That | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
is why we put in place a Chief Executive. What happened when you | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
were in government, your party did this, the NHS act 2010, it made the | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
NHS into an independent body, so the idea was the Secretary of State | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
would have nothing to do with it. Jeremy Hunt spends every morning | :38:24. | :38:25. | |
biting his fingernails over the next A closure. He is micromanaging the | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
NHS from his own department because the act that you and the Tories put | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
into place did not work. What it did was shovel large parts of the NHS | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
into the hands of private companies, many of whom just happen to have | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
directors and owners who are in the Tory party. That is what has | :38:45. | :38:52. | |
happened. Which act are you talking about? I hope the junior doctors | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
throw that deal back in their face. I hope they do. What about the | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
patients. The patients support the junior doctors. Go and meet them. Go | :39:03. | :39:13. | |
to Walsall. First, I rebelled on the NHS bill. Secondly, the key point in | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
all of this, on the junior doctors debate, it is a reminder that | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
resource is the issue. If you keep pushing the ball down the road it | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
will never be solved. It does need to be an all-party thing. If we are | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
going to bring in social care, advance mental health, it will cost | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
more. It will never happen if one party is scoring points of the | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
other, only if there is a new Beveridge- style consensus. But how | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
do you achieve that? Is it achievable? I hope so, because it is | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
the thing that people believe in, probably the most treasured national | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
institution, with the second being the BBC which has also seen a lot of | :39:55. | :40:09. | |
attacks recently. Who was bullying? Booing? Amber did not answer my | :40:10. | :40:18. | |
question of why were these concessions not made months ago? Why | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
have we had people have appointments cancelled, stress on hospitals, | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
really undermining the morale of some of the most important assets to | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
the National Health Service, the people who work in it? That is what | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
he has put at risk. Would it be possible, together to the question, | :40:37. | :40:42. | |
to have some kind of institution, we have had this, therefore, some kind | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
of institution which was agreed between all parties should run the | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
National health? The Chancellor of the Exchequer would give the money, | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
but the detail would not be in the hands of party politicians, not the | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
hands of Jeremy Hunt or a Labour minister. I think you want as much | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
decision-making as possible taken by medical professionals, the experts | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
who should be running hospitals, primary care and running care in the | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
community as well. The only thing I would caution is that if what you | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
simply do is to say we are going to pass all the responsibility but it | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
is still going to be the government writing the check, and not writing a | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
big enough cheque and doing the things it needs to do, then you have | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
a problem. The second thing is, I think they should be accountable to | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
local communities. We would be better having more accountability | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
for the National Health Service and social care together in local | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
communities, rather than it be simply something that a Health | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
Secretary can way into whenever he wants to make a political point and | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
pick a fight. I am so glad we're having this discussion. I think it | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
should be taken out of the hands of politicians. I am on the board of | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
one of the local NHS Trusts and every five or six years you see this | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
pattern of change when the political cycle changes. You need it to be | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
taken out of the influence of political environments. The one | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
thing everyone needs to do is to level with the population in terms | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
of what is really going on. There is a humongous demand in the NHS and it | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
is nothing to do with immigrants. It is absolutely everything to do with | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
ageing demographics, the diseases we can cure now, which we could not | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
before, and the demands placed on resources available. You have to | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
level with the population. Does tax go up, does the service go down? | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
What are you promising? At the moment, you are trying to make | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
things add up and they will not. APPLAUSE | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
I think we already lies we are heading towards all of us have it | :42:48. | :42:55. | |
have a debate about the NHS. -- we all realise. We have an ageing | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
population, a growing population, drugs are becoming more expensive. | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
It is a debate we will have to have as grown-ups as we move into the | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
21st-century. What is your answer? My answer is that we will have to | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
spend more money in future and that will have to go to a general | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
election and a political party will have to put it to the electorate to | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
see whether they are willing to plough more into the NHS. So | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
taxation is your route? I thought your route was to get people to pay | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
individually? Our manifesto at the last general election shed -- said | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
we would plough an extra 3 billion each year into the NHS. The biggest | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
immediate threat to the NHS comes from the transatlantic trade | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
investment partnership, which the European Union is negotiating now | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
with the United States. There is an article in that called the investor | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
state dispute settlement which will allow American corporations to sue | :43:54. | :43:55. | |
the National Health Service if they do not get what they want. Example, | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
at the moment you have Philip Morris suing the Australian government | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
because the Australian government have harmed their profits by | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
bringing in plain packaging. That could happen in the NHS and the only | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
way we can protect the NHS is by voting to leave on June the 23rd. | :44:14. | :44:23. | |
That is rubbish. Amber Rudd, you clear this up. This was in the | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
Queens speech and I thought there was an amendment to exclude the NHS | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
from this agreement. That is correct. The government already | :44:31. | :44:40. | |
takes the view that... Not takes the view, legislates. The first position | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
is that we take the view that the NHS is excluded. And you are right, | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
Mr Chairman, we have agreed that additional legislation will be in | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
place to reassure everybody so they can be absolutely clear the NHS will | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
not be included. While I have the floor, may I say that I think you | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
are absolutely right on your point that there are expectations that we | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
have to manage. We have to decide whether we are going to carry on | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
with what we believe and hope can be a first-class service, with | :45:12. | :45:13. | |
additional problems, and if we are going to pay for them. That debate | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
has to take place. In terms of the independence of the NHS, part of | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
that has been given to the new Chief Executive. He puts together the plan | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
and it goes to the Chancellor and he says, this is what we need to | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
deliver on it. So maybe that system needs to be beefed up, but the | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
principles of doing that, we have put in place. | :45:35. | :45:42. | |
The funds he asked for were taken down a bit. That's correct, but the | :45:43. | :45:50. | |
junior doctors issue, did go back to that, in any organisation, | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
leadership is so immensely important, and Jeremy Hunt, whether | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
right or not, have a leadership important in this, and how we have | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
managed this dispute... He took a leaf out of how Michael Gove managed | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
teachers. If you have a group of people to move towards a certain | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
end, the last thing you do is demoralise them. I am concerned | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
about all those young people out there who might become doctors and | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
medics in the future and think, that isn't for me. He has turned off a | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
generation of people who might otherwise have gone into the health | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
service. Hold on. Just for the people who are never quite sure what | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
TTIP is, what exactly is the implication, as an economist, of | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
TTIP on the NHS? In layman's language? It is a binding treaty | :46:42. | :46:49. | |
that says, look, we, Britain, and Europe, have to open up our markets | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
to American companies and that, if they are unfairly discriminated | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
against, so you can't own the NHS, they can sue us in a court. You have | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
to exempt the NHS. I would exempt a lot of other things. I would say | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
that we should veto TTIP in Europe. It is likely to happen. I wouldn't | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
see this as a leading or staying in issue for Europe. While I've got the | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
floor, I will do what you lot haven't done. There is a $28 billion | :47:19. | :47:27. | |
pounds tax cap in this country. It could be 128. That money should be | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
collected from the tax dodging rich and used to pay for the NHS. You | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
have made your point. Somebody mentioned Michael Gove on the other | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
side of the table, let's have a question that might touch on him. | :47:48. | :47:55. | |
Conrad, please. Prison reform includes suggestions that some | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
prisoners will only go to prison at weekends and be given iPads. Are we | :48:00. | :48:06. | |
being soft on crime? These are the suggestions from Michael Gove for | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
reforms, and you may have seen the pictures of the chaos in Wandsworth | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
prison and others, drugs being brought in by drones. Probably | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
arranged by the department so that their position should be understood. | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
The suggestion is, work at home during the week and more weekends, | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
in prison. Are we being soft? Yvette Cooper. It depends what the crime is | :48:32. | :48:39. | |
that has been committed. If people have committed violent, serious | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
crimes, abuse, there has to be a proper sentence and the public has | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
to be protected, but also vegans need to feel that actually justice | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
is being done. -- victims. But with other crimes you could have very | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
different sentencing where you don't end up having to have overcrowded | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
prisons. It's sensible to look at that kind of reform, educational | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
reform and rehabilitation, but a real problem I have with what they | :49:09. | :49:10. | |
have announced this week is actually what they were really talking about | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
was just six prisons out of 130 would get some flexibility to do | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
other things but nothing to tackle the major overcrowding problems, you | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
really shocking images that we saw on the news last night of some of | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
the things going on in Wandsworth, an increase of about a third in riot | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
attacks on staff, an increase of about a quarter in a tax on | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
prisoners, suicide rates are up, and it is a consequence of having cut | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
staff numbers by a third. You've got prisoners locked in their cells for | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
23 hours at a time because there are not enough staff to supervise them. | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
Unless this is sorted out, all of the reforms will just be a con. | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
Conrad, you were a police officer, I think? Do you think we are being | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
soft on crime? I think if you do the crime, you should do the time. | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
APPLAUSE I don't believe that sending | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
prisoners at weekends only and having the week off to work, I don't | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
think it will work. They have enough cushy time in prison. Giving them | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
iPads, I think, well... How much is an iPad? Paul Nuttall. The cynic in | :50:26. | :50:35. | |
me thought that this announcement by Michael Gove was a publicity stunt | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
but I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because, if you | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
look at the statistics, only one in four prisoners who are released go | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
on and find employment, so if you keep them in employment, you will | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
integrate them into back into society. When they do come out, 46% | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
of them go on to commit crime within a year. Those on shorter sentences, | :50:57. | :51:04. | |
that jumps up to 60%, so there is a correlation between how long you | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
spend in prison and the likelihood of you coming out and reoffending. I | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
want sentences to mean what you say. I don't want you to go down for six | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
years and come out in three. If you go down for six, you should stay in | :51:17. | :51:22. | |
the six years. In the end, we can have rehabilitation but I think | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
deterrence are as important. Do you believe in the death penalty? Yes, | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
like the majority of people in this country, I believed in the death | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
penalties for people who go out and kill harmless children, and I make | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
no apologies. One other point, the real issue we have got with prisons | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
is that the budgets have been cut massively. In 2000, for everyone | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
prison officer, there were three prisoners. Now, in 2015, there are | :51:54. | :52:00. | |
six reserve officers -- six prisoners for every officer. My | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
cousin is a prison officer and he tells me all of the time that they | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
have lost control. Between now and 2020, there will be another 15% cut | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
on the Ministry of Justice budget. We need to spend money on our | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
prisons, we need people to come out educated, rehabilitated and then | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
integrated back into society. The man in the striped T-shirt. I think | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
that rehabilitation is really important, but where does the | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
deterrent start? If these people are out in general society midweek, we | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
are acting as the prison officers, almost, in the fact that we are the | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
people in front of these prisoners. They should be behind bars if they | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
have done something wrong for a certain amount of time, where proper | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
rehabilitation and take effect. So it should be done inside rather than | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
out. Paul Mason. I am in favour of enforcing the criminal justice | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
system fairly. How many constituencies are being | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
investigated at the moment for Conservative election fraud? | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
Innocent until proven guilty, of course. It is 29. As a Conservative | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
minister and Privy Council, you will be the first to say that, if anybody | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
worked out to have conspired to link those constituencies together so | :53:29. | :53:30. | |
that somebody knew that the Conservative Party was overspending | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
at local level, that person should be prosecuted, shouldn't they? What | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
does this have to do with the question? A lot of young | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
working-class men get criminalised by poverty and living a terrible | :53:47. | :53:48. | |
life that we should rehabilitate them, but we should be investigating | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
the crimes of the rich and privileged with just the same amount | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
of vigour. Starting with the people who keep their money in Panama. | :53:59. | :54:05. | |
People are in prison for a reason. I go to school in Walsall and we can't | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
even afford iPads. Working-class girls like me and my friends can't | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
learn of iPads at school. Our school can't afford it. Why do prisoners | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
deserve iPads but hard-working girls like me and Ellie don't? The purpose | :54:20. | :54:30. | |
of this reform is a centrepiece of the Prime Minister's desire to give | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
people life chances. What we are doing is investing money and totally | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
reforming the prison service and the prisons themselves, the biggest | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
reform since the Victorian age, to make them fit for purpose so we | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
don't have the sort of numbers Paul quoted, about recidivism, people | :54:48. | :54:49. | |
coming out of jail and committing crimes. We want to make sure people | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
get a second chance. It isn't just that. Is she going to get an iPad? | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
How am I supposed to learn at school without technology? We don't have | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
the funding for computers at work. Hard-working pupils deserve that | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
funding, not prisoners. I have to say, maybe your school... There has | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
to be a quality in the system. A lot of schools now provide iPads for | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
their children as they go through. I hope the education system can help | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
people access iPads. If they can't get their own once, to have good | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
access to shared ones. There is no question of all prisoners of iPads. | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
Some of the elements have been highlighted as if the government is | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
going to be soft on crime, we are not. We want to make sure people | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
come out educated, they can get jobs and make a useful contribution and | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
not go back to crime. We have to remember that not all crimes are | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
violent crimes. You talk about these people being a risk to us. Not | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
everyone is in prison is a risk to the population. And violent crimes, | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
of course, should be treated inside. In terms of rehabilitation and | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
allowing people to become a functioning part of society, it | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
simply can't be done when they are being locked away for 23 hours per | :56:11. | :56:17. | |
day in a cell. Are we being soft on crime? I don't think so. We are | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
being very ineffective on crime, though. Let's look at what prison is | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
for. Three things, to punish people who have done wrong, to make sure | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
there is justice and the victim gets some reparation. Second, to protect | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
society from people who will be endangered to it. Third, it's about | :56:35. | :56:43. | |
rehabilitation, so that those people come out improved and able to | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
function. Just about half of the 85,000 people who are currently in | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
prison will reoffend within 12 months, so many of them are not | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
violent crimes at all. What do we do to make sure we make our country | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
safer? Revalidation is right and just, morally correct to give people | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
a second chance. -- rehabilitation. We as a country will be safer as a | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
result. You, sir, quickly. I am reserving prison officer. I am all | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
for rehabilitation but the things you are asking for cannot be done in | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
custody. They need to be done outside, before release. By the time | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
people get into custody and they are on to the longer sentences, you just | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
need staff. What did you think of the suggestions put forward by the | :57:38. | :57:39. | |
government for people spending five days at home and spending two days | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
in prison? It won't work because you are incentivising people not to come | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
to Britain at weekends. It's a punishment system. One more. Isn't | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
this just a publicity stunt? It is one of the few occupations that | :57:58. | :58:05. | |
doesn't get filled in post. Isn't it politicians looking for the general | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
public to do their job? She can't answer because our time is up. We'll | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
have to try again later. I'm sorry. It really is. Our power has | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
finished. Nick Clegg, we will be in Ipswich. -- next week, we will be in | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
Ipswich. Ed Miliband will be back for the first time since he stopped | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
being leader of the Labour Party. Caroline Lucas for the Greens, David | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
Davis for the Conservatives, and Steve Hilton will be on the panel. | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
You do look surprised. The 17 years, he was David Cameron's strategy | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
adviser. We will be in Cardiff the week after that. An exciting | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
programme in Ipswich and another in Cardiff. Go to the website if you | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
would like to come. If you are listening on five live, don't go | :58:56. | :59:01. | |
away. Here, my thanks to our panel, to all of you who came to Walsall to | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
take part. Until next Thursday, good night. | :59:06. | :59:10. |