19/05/2016 Question Time


19/05/2016

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Walsall. Panellists include Amber Rudd, Yvette Cooper, Tim Farron, Paul Nuttall and broadcaster Paul Mason.


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Transcript


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We are in the town Hall of Walsall in the West Midlands tonight, and of

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course, this is Question Time. Good evening and welcome to you,

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television, radio, everybody in the studio and our panel. The

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Conservative Energy Secretary, Amber Rudd. Labour's Yvette Cooper, who

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lost out to Jeremy Corbyn in last year's leadership election. Leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron. A pity leader of Ukip, Paul

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Nuttall. And the broadcaster who left Channel 4 News to be free to

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campaign for radical left policies, Paul Mason.

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Thanks very much. Just a reminder before our first question, if you

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want to get involved in the debate, Facebook, Twitter and text. Push the

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red button if you want to see what others are saying. Daniel Robertson

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has the first question. Is it racist to want to leave the European Union?

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This is in the light, is it not, of Pat Glass, Labour's shadow Europe

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minister who was recorded saying of somebody who wanted Brexit and said

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that the Polish were scroungers, that he was a horrible racist. That

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happened today. Is it racist to want to leave the EU? Paul Nuttall. Not

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at all. This is a window into the heart of the Labour Party, that this

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was said. At the general election in 2010, Gordon Brown said something

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very similar about Gillian Duffy, when he called her a bigoted woman.

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And look, what we are saying, those of us who want to leave the European

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Union, is that we want to enter the globe again, because at the moment

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we are tied to the slowest growing economic bloc on the planet. It is

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not racist to be concerned about immigration because we are talking

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about numbers. The figures released today in terms of employment are

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frightening. The fact that five out of six new jobs went to people who

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were not born here, would seem to be putting British people at the back

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of the queue. And we know from the ONS report last week that 800,000

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people came from the European Union last year, even though Government

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statistics tell us it was only 250 7000. We are basically under a

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deluge of people coming to this country and we need to control our

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own borders. It is not racist to say you want to control your borders,

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but the only way we will do that is by leaving the European Union on

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June 23. That figure of five out of six new jobs in fact does include

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half of them are people who live here already and they are British

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citizens, just happen to be born outside Britain. So why give the

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wrong figure? There are 5.2 million foreign workers in Britain, one in

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six in the workforce. 2.2 million have come from within the European

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Union. The problem with immigration is not just economic. We are finding

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wages are being driven down in working-class communities, and the

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Bank of England have admitted that is the case. But it is also the

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social problem. When we can control immigration and numbers, people can

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integrate sensibly. The problem is too many people are coming and

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people are not integrating into communities.

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APPLAUSE Let's come back to your shadow

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Europe minister saying this man was a horrible racist because he said

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the Polish were scroungers, a particular family. He has apologised

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and it is not racist to want to leave the European Union. It is not

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racist to be worried about immigration. Our concern is

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particularly about dodgy employers who undercut wages and jobs. I think

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something should be done about that. Where it is racist is some of the

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things we have seen, for example, in the Conservative campaign against

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Sadiq Khan, for being Muslim. I think you should always call out

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racism and you can do so at the same time as having a sensible debate

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about things like immigration. The trouble with what Paul has said is

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that there is actually a bit of a con going on. It is playing on

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people's fears and it is a con because what Paul has actually said,

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if Britain pulls out of Europe, is that he would want it to be the

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Norway model. I have not. Never in my life. You have said that. What

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Norway means is that you would have free movement. If you have the Swiss

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model you would also have free movement. There is a lot of false

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promise that it would change policies of statuary if we pull out.

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What I think is a serious problem is that you have had in the last few

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days, you have had Nigel Farage talking about there will somehow be

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violence on the streets, which is not dissimilar to what Enoch Powell

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said years ago. We also had Boris Johnson attacking President Obama

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for his half Kenyan heritage. And we have had Michael Gove saying that

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somehow the country will be overrun by Albanian criminals. I think that

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is playing on division. We know that the Leave campaign want to divide

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Britain from Europe. Why, if you say that... Just a minute. We should not

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be trying to divide communities from each other. That is wrong. Why did

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the Labour campaign, then, in a leaked document, say that if the

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question of immigration came up, you should move away from it, if it came

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up on the doorstep? I have always done the opposite. You think that is

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wrong? I think you may have asked me that before the last election. So

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what? You didn't answer it then and you are not answering now. I have

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always said you should be prepared to talk about immigration. I don't

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think you should switch the subject. I don't think it is wrong to talk

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about it. Whether it is about dodgy employers and exploitation, we

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should take stronger action on that. That should mean stronger laws in

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Britain against exploitation, because some of it, frankly, is

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modern slave. It also means we should work with other European

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countries to protect the rights of workers, defend them, rather than

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getting wood of them and dismissing them as red tape, as some in Ukip

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want to do, because that would make things worse. -- getting rid of

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them. I want to go back to the point about it not being racist to talk

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about immigration. We do need to acknowledge there are right-wing

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political parties like Britain first and the BNP that are exploiting this

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immigration debate to the point that it is fuelling horrific

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Islamophobia, to their benefit, by saying we have so many immigrants

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coming here from different countries. It even echoes the Enoch

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Powell rivers of blood speech, or Margaret Thatcher talking about

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aliens on our own street. It is alienating Muslims and people that

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come here from other countries. With a climate where we need to be united

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in the face of terror attacks, we are alienating people and making

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them feel unwelcome, and the BNP are exploiting this.

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APPLAUSE Being against immigration is not

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racist at all. The problem is that the immigrants when they come, they

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don't go and live in Islington or Morningside in Edinburgh, Saint

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Davidsson Wales. They come to Walsall, to Wolverhampton, to

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Toxteth. The schools are ready over crowded. You can't get a place at

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the doctor. We are too full. Put up the shot signs. Paul Mason. I don't

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think it is racist to want to leave Europe, because I want to leave

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Europe and I count myself as somebody who has fought against

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racism or iLife. The reason I want to leave Europe is because it is

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impossible for the European to be a democracy. Simple as that.

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APPLAUSE I don't care how much it costs. If

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it was doing its job, it would be worth paying. I think we are going

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to need more migrants. I also think we have educated take refugees. But

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let's put this to one side and think about this European choice. -- we

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have a duty to take refugees. I am very unlikely to vote for Brexit on

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the day because I do not want to hand power to a bunch of crazed,

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right-wing Conservatives. APPLAUSE

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I do not include you in this. You are a non-crazed right-wing

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Conservative. So this once-in-a-lifetime chance... I think

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there will be another chance because the European Union is

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disintegrating. Half of the governments of East Europe are

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racist. Eastern European governments are coming forward with people who

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want coalitions with the far right. How can this persist? For us to go

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forward, I do not want Michael Gove and Boris Johnson given the chance

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to shape written's Constitution in future with no election, no promise

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of election, no further referendum on what deal we do. I will be

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looking carefully at what the position is as I go into that ballot

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box. So you might vote Remain? I might. There are things that Remain

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can do to convince me. One would be to promise a -- an election within

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six months of the referendum, so we can all decide on the future

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relationship with Europe. That is democracy. The short answer is, no,

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I don't think it is racist. I thought the point the lady brought

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up is interesting, because she highlighted the real difficulty of

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language in this particular debate. Because this is an incredibly

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important, historic choice everybody will be making on June 23. So all

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sorts of groups are piling in. There are racist groups piling in and

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certainly they will vote to leave, and it does destabilise some of the

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language taking place. It is important not necessarily to think

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about who or which party will be in charge. This is a historic chance to

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change or stay in the EU for the UK. It is not about individuals. If we

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move away from individuals, perhaps there will be a few less insults

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flying around. Would you promise an election within six months of the

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vote? It is important to concentrate on the facts. This is another issue

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I would take issue with Paul on. When he trots out these facts, I do

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not think they are facts. Nine out of ten people employed in the UK are

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British-born. His facts are different to mine. One of the things

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we must be careful of is tabloid newspapers putting out headlines

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that are not facts. I would urge you to check them yourself, particularly

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on immigration. What do you say to the man at the top on the left, who

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said that people come here, to Toxteth, not to Islington and

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Morningside in Edinburgh. In other words, it is here that the schools

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are overcrowded, the NHS is under pressure. His concern, I believe, is

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that people come here without jobs to come to hand without

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contributing, and that is one of the changes the Prime Minister has made,

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so we can in courage people to come here only if they have jobs to come

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to. They cannot collect benefits for four years. Is that an answer, sir?

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It is not enough. According to the latest statistics come immigrants

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contributed over 2.5 billion tax for 2013-14. Do you know why there are

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so many immigrants and black people in Toxteth, because that is where

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they were taken as slaves, when Liverpool was a slave port. No, it

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wasn't. You are from Liverpool. Do you object to all the black people?

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Many of your supporters do. I don't. They came after 1945 when we had

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sensible immigration numbers. Between 45 and 97, up to 50,000

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people came every year, a sensible number so that people can

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assimilate. You cannot do that with 800,000 people coming. Tim Farron's

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turn, I think. Thank you. Daniel, your question, is it racist to want

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to leave the European Union and to talk about immigration? No, it

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isn't. I disagree with Paul, but I like him. I think he is sincere and

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believes what he believes. I believe he is wrong, but not a racist. What

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I think that Pat Glass and her remarks betray is that there are too

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many folks on the Remain side who are running away from the issue of

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immigration and migration. I will not do that. I will absolutely

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categorically say that immigration to this country is by far much more

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a blessing and a curse. APPLAUSE

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-- a blessing than a curse. Figures today say there are 2.1 million

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European citizens living and working and paying taxes in the United

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Kingdom. A figure of close to 2 million British people living and

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working or being retired elsewhere in the European Union. It is pretty

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much give-and-take. We have this rhetoric about the damage that

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migration has done to our country. Go to any A award and see who

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makes you better, who is looking after elderly parents in care homes,

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looking after our children. Migration is helpful and it

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strengthens this country, and being in the European Union allows us to

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move to other countries and others to come here. The fact that there

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are so many people in this country working and from other areas

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demonstrates the work ethic so many of these folks have and we should be

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proud they choose Britain as their home.

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I would like to address Paul and the gentleman about Walsall and

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immigration and blaming social care. It is a farce. Social care in this

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area is struggling because we are one of the biggest hit local

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government councils for cuts. Next year, we've got to find ?19 million.

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It's atrocious. Metropolitan councils have been kicked a hell of

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a lot more than any of the others. Birmingham is the largest authority

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in Europe and it has had massive cuts. We can't blame immigration.

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We've got to blame the Conservative government and the cuts that are

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hitting the most vulnerable and leaving people in crisis. Hold on.

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Let's hear some more points. I'd like to completely disagree with the

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remarks made by the gentleman at the top left. The US has been described

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as a great melting pot where everybody is fused together to make

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something better. Shouldn't we encourage immigration from the EU to

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evade a demographic crisis? On the top right. Iron I'd like to take

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issue with Paul Mason's comments about right wing Conservatives.

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Millions of people voted Conservative in the last election.

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It was clear there was going to be a referendum on the manifesto. Jo

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Brand Conservatives generally, about 10 million people, as crazed

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right-wingers is appalling. -- Jo Brand Conservatives. It is

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appalling, the things you say. -- to brand. We now know what a ?35,000

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per year education at Eton buys you. It's the ability to stand up, to

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insult your opponents, if you are not winning the argument to raise

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ridiculous point about the EU banning banana bunches more than

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three. If that doesn't work, you tussle your hair and green inanely.

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If I paid ?35,000 a year and sent somebody to Eton and they came at

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doing that, I'd be disgusted. We could do with less personal insults.

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I'm talking about Boris Johnson, who has the based... I'm sorry, he is

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debasing the rationality of this debate and you should be worried

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that this guy could be leading your party if he wins the referendum. I'm

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not worried about that. I am worried about the personal insults. A art, a

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brilliant man, and you are focusing on somebody's education, rather than

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the arguments. John Major was saying that the Tory right was adopting the

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Ukip argument. This is what the Tories will become if the right-wing

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faction get their way. It is this that frightened me above everything

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else, less than Ukip. We don't know what these guys will do if they take

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control of your party. It must be appalling for you, Paul. You long

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for Brexit and you don't dare vote for it. We will get another chance.

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This is the chance. One of the things that Boris Johnson actually

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said before of this -- before this all started was that he would like a

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referendum on the result of the negotiation. That would be something

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that those of us who are worried about an uncontrolled right-wing

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Brexit would like to see. You could deliver it, you are in the council

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-- you are a Privy Council. People want to know the facts. There is a

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reason you are straying away from Boris Johnson as an individual,

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because he might be Lorne leader in six weeks' time. -- he might be your

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leader. You might be leading a party, within six months' time. I

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understand why Amber Rudd is saying she doesn't want it to be personal,

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because it does feel it has become personal in the Tory party. I think

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too much of this debate has been Tory politicians having a go at each

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other. That is probably why we haven't heard enough about things

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like workers' right in Europe. That is why, as well, we haven't heard

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enough about them is like jobs in manufacturing in our industrial

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towns. I have some sympathy with Paul. In the end, I don't really

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care if two old Etonians want to have a slug out against the future

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of the Tory party but I care if they are putting people's livelihood at

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risk over a political game. We've got another EU question which arises

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from this. Have you all had this booklet? It comes from this, and the

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question is from Dominic. This is the electoral commission voting

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guide for the referendum. The Remain campaign says that we... Who is

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right? The Remain, every count that we put in, we get ?10 back. Leave,

:20:43.:20:50.

put ?3 50 in and you only get half back. Somebody isn't telling the

:20:51.:20:55.

truth. What Remain is doing is focusing on the benefits to the

:20:56.:20:59.

economy, the fact that we get investment into the UK, because we

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are part of the platform access to the EU. It is working out the

:21:04.:21:08.

benefit, 10-1, of having that investment and access to the single

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market. Leave are comparing it to how much it costs because they are

:21:14.:21:17.

simply looking at the bill for being a member of this club, then netting

:21:18.:21:22.

off the rebate and any other money that is the cost of what we get

:21:23.:21:26.

back. They are not looking at the enormous benefits that we get from

:21:27.:21:31.

the single market. And you think it can be costed ?10 for every pound

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you put in? I have put -- spent 20 years covering economics and I have

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learned not to take account of these figures. They are pulled out of

:21:43.:21:47.

abstract thinking, equations that don't add up. In the end, people

:21:48.:21:51.

have to take this decision on the basis, not of this mirage of facts

:21:52.:21:57.

that we keep getting the media is bombarding us with facts and, the

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more we get, the less we understand. You've got take a decision on the

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basis of, do you believe in the institutions? Do you believe it can

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be reformed and it can deliver what you want as British people on the

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day, and then what the concrete consequences on the day of the

:22:16.:22:18.

particular political leadership? If it cost us double what it says, if

:22:19.:22:24.

it worked, it would be worth paying. My concern is... One of the reasons

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the Tory right is so annoyed is because they are now getting the

:22:29.:22:32.

treatment the Scots got during the independence referendum. They are

:22:33.:22:36.

getting the whole of the official state apparatus, the Bank of

:22:37.:22:41.

England, the Treasury, pumping out propaganda for Remain that has no

:22:42.:22:45.

ability to be challenged. Those of us who have would like to see a

:22:46.:22:52.

different outcome have no ability to challenge what the Bank of England

:22:53.:22:55.

and the Treasury are modelling. Red everybody keeps asking for the

:22:56.:23:01.

facts. All mason says that they don't mean anything anyway. -- Paul

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Mason. Probably the only thing more depressing than the referendum and

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the fistfight between two old schoolmates is the concentrating of

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facts and figures. It doesn't mean they are not important. We've got to

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make a judgment as to what is in the best interest of our country, as

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individuals and families. Some things do stack up. The single

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market is worth ?78 billion per year to the UK. We are net contributors

:23:30.:23:35.

to the EU, to the tune of about 6.5 billion per year. You've got to work

:23:36.:23:39.

out whether that is a good deal. I think it is. What I am desperate for

:23:40.:23:44.

is something a bit more uplifting in this debate. The reason I will vote

:23:45.:23:49.

to remain on June 23 isn't just the economy, it's about a statement of

:23:50.:23:53.

what kind of country I belong to, what kind of country is Britain. Are

:23:54.:23:58.

we outward looking? Or do we want to stand on the white cliffs of Dover,

:23:59.:24:03.

glowering across the English Channel? I want Britain to be the

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kind of country that is engaged with the outside world. We have built

:24:08.:24:14.

piece over the past 75 years ago. There were nuclear weapons on their

:24:15.:24:18.

soil pointed at the West Midlands and the rest of the UK. Today, we

:24:19.:24:22.

work together. That is the kind of Europe I want my children to grow

:24:23.:24:31.

into. A reminder that Dominic's question was about who we believe on

:24:32.:24:35.

the money. I think we need to get back to the basics of the discussion

:24:36.:24:41.

and get understanding what this is about. It isn't about personality.

:24:42.:24:47.

It is about two basic things. Can we manage the country ourselves or will

:24:48.:24:50.

we continue to be told from a group of 27 other countries what we can do

:24:51.:24:57.

and can't do and how we should do it, but we've got to foot the bill?

:24:58.:25:02.

Surely we could take the money back ourselves and make better use of it?

:25:03.:25:08.

So you don't believe the figures? It's a lot of nonsense. Independent

:25:09.:25:18.

is a perfectly fair question, but I think ignores the reality of the

:25:19.:25:22.

modern world. The EU isn't the only way in which we pool our

:25:23.:25:28.

sovereignty. Nato, the world trade organisation, the most democratic if

:25:29.:25:32.

the EU. Talking about these leaflets, I am depressed by

:25:33.:25:37.

politics. The EU referendum has shown how broken the system is.

:25:38.:25:40.

Within parties, you've got infighting. One set of parties

:25:41.:25:45.

saying one lot of figures. We are being lied to and there isn't a

:25:46.:25:50.

genuine debate. The EU referendum has shown the ugliest side of where

:25:51.:25:55.

politics is. It is the same people on either side of the chamber, to be

:25:56.:26:02.

honest. To answer the original question... You are good at

:26:03.:26:09.

answering questions. We are getting all sorts of facts and figures in

:26:10.:26:13.

the ground. One economist will say one thing and then somebody else

:26:14.:26:18.

will say the alternative. The ex-head of MI6 said we would be more

:26:19.:26:22.

secure if we were out, others saying the opposite. This will go on until

:26:23.:26:27.

the day. It will be up to you guys to make the decision of whether you

:26:28.:26:30.

want Britain to be stuck within the slowest growing economic bloc on the

:26:31.:26:36.

planet. He is saying it is a disreputable campaign in which

:26:37.:26:39.

people are attacking each other in the way you have been describing and

:26:40.:26:45.

experts saying opposite things. How do you restore confidence? I want to

:26:46.:26:49.

get away from personalities and campaign on the real facts and

:26:50.:26:55.

figures. It is costing us ?55 million every single day to be

:26:56.:26:59.

members of the European Union. That is the gross figure. Hold on. Then

:27:00.:27:03.

we get the rebate back. And then they give us a portion of money back

:27:04.:27:09.

and then they tell us how to spend our own money. If you walk round

:27:10.:27:13.

Wolverhampton or Birmingham, you will see signed up saying, thank the

:27:14.:27:19.

European Union, this project was built with EU money. There is no

:27:20.:27:24.

such thing, it's your money, your taxation, and that money should

:27:25.:27:29.

stayed here to be spent on our schools, hospitals and transport

:27:30.:27:37.

network. What is the economic cost of a disenfranchised population, as

:27:38.:27:41.

expressed by the chat at the front? We are losing interest in Europe. We

:27:42.:27:46.

got no influence over it. That will have an economic cost down the line.

:27:47.:27:53.

Could you ask your question again, please? What is the economic cost of

:27:54.:27:58.

having a disenfranchised population. The man at the front expressed it

:27:59.:28:03.

well. I think people are feeling quite alienated from this whole

:28:04.:28:07.

debate and everything being thrown around to and fro. If you go through

:28:08.:28:11.

the facts, Paul did go further than a lot of the Leave campaigners by

:28:12.:28:16.

conceding that actually they figured they use, this ?350 million, is

:28:17.:28:24.

wrong. The statistics authority has said it is misleading and dodgy to

:28:25.:28:27.

use it. Yeah, there is a contribution, and in return what we

:28:28.:28:33.

get is access to the single market, and that makes it so much easier for

:28:34.:28:38.

our businesses to trade. What you get on the other side is different

:28:39.:28:42.

estimates, and they are estimates by economist based on a whole load of

:28:43.:28:46.

evidence and analysis about what it would cost if we pull out of the

:28:47.:28:51.

single market and how much trade we would lose. Is this right what it

:28:52.:28:56.

says on the Remain site, for every ?1 we put in we get ?10 back? It is

:28:57.:29:03.

an estimate by economists... One of the estimates. You were chief

:29:04.:29:08.

secretary of the Treasury. Do you think they've got it right? I think

:29:09.:29:15.

it is as accurate as any other. It is important, because it is

:29:16.:29:19.

official. No body knows until you know what the trade deal is that is

:29:20.:29:27.

done. Why put it in? People want facts so we do our best to give them

:29:28.:29:32.

facts. Ultimately, it is a judgment. You don't say it is a judgment here.

:29:33.:29:43.

APPLAUSE These are the facts that I believe

:29:44.:29:47.

to be true but Paul believes different ones. There is one bottom

:29:48.:29:56.

line. Your question was, what is the economic cost of a disenfranchised

:29:57.:30:00.

population. We who are involved in public life should take that

:30:01.:30:04.

seriously. I want to save the steel industry. I drive past Port Talbot

:30:05.:30:10.

steelworks. It is a brilliant bit of structural asset for this country.

:30:11.:30:15.

The European Union rules say we can't. That is basically what it

:30:16.:30:18.

says. In addition, the European Commission itself has refused to

:30:19.:30:24.

fight for the whole European Union steel industry in the world market.

:30:25.:30:30.

If I could deselect the European Commission, believe me, I would. If

:30:31.:30:35.

we could elect it and bring it under democratic control, that would be

:30:36.:30:41.

good. But the treaty prevents us doing so and it prevents a future

:30:42.:30:45.

Labour government from saving steel, it prevents them from nationalising

:30:46.:30:48.

the railways, and this to me is the bread and butter as to why we have

:30:49.:30:55.

to look critically at the European Union. And you will still vote to

:30:56.:31:01.

remain? I am saying that the economic case for Brexit is strong,

:31:02.:31:06.

as is the political, but the Brexit people don't need to be dictated to

:31:07.:31:10.

by a Tory right about when and under what conditions we do so.

:31:11.:31:17.

I think there is a lot of nonsense said about how the EU stops us doing

:31:18.:31:25.

a lot of things. Often, the Tory government will use the EU as an

:31:26.:31:29.

excuse not to take action on steel when it could have done. We have the

:31:30.:31:33.

same issue around the coal industry in my constituency when the last pit

:31:34.:31:37.

closed. EU said they would be able to help and the Tory government

:31:38.:31:42.

said, we can't. Too often it is used as an excuse not to take action when

:31:43.:31:46.

we can. When it comes back to the point about the facts, people will

:31:47.:31:50.

throw different numbers at you but the bottom line in the end is that

:31:51.:31:55.

the cost of trade will be higher. If we are outside the single market,

:31:56.:31:58.

the cost of trade will be higher. They will give us a worse steel than

:31:59.:32:02.

we have now. Why would they let us be in the club and give us a worse

:32:03.:32:09.

deal? We deal with this subject every week. We have spent half the

:32:10.:32:15.

programme on it. You can have one sentence, Tim, and then I will move

:32:16.:32:21.

on. Not a long sentence. What we have seen in the steel industry is

:32:22.:32:24.

the consequence of Chinese government actions and Indian

:32:25.:32:28.

business decisions, proving that we are interconnected as a global and

:32:29.:32:31.

we are far better off together with our neighbours standing up to those

:32:32.:32:36.

economic threats than on our own. I am going to move on because we have

:32:37.:32:42.

taken half an hour and I don't think it is fair if every programme is

:32:43.:32:45.

entirely about the EU because we have a long way to go and a lot of

:32:46.:32:50.

debate before we reach that date in June when Paul Mason has to decide

:32:51.:32:58.

how to cast his vote. And millions of other people. We are going to be

:32:59.:33:03.

in Ipswich next week and Cardiff the week after that. On screen, you can

:33:04.:33:08.

see how to apply. Let's move on for a question from

:33:09.:33:16.

Kevin Wilkes. After the junior doctors debacle, isn't it time for

:33:17.:33:21.

the NHS to be run independently, rather than continually being a

:33:22.:33:31.

political football? Tim Farron. It is certainly time for it to stop

:33:32.:33:35.

being used as a political football, to answer your question

:33:36.:33:42.

specifically. If Beveridge, the Liberal, who wrote the blueprint for

:33:43.:33:45.

the National Health Service in the 1940s, if in his day we had been

:33:46.:33:49.

living to the ages we are now, there is no question whatsoever that he

:33:50.:33:54.

would have included social care in with the National Health Service.

:33:55.:33:57.

The fact that it is disconnected from the National Health Service has

:33:58.:34:01.

to be addressed, as does the relegation of mental health services

:34:02.:34:05.

behind physical health services. We should be massively proud of the

:34:06.:34:07.

National Health Service but let's not kid ourselves that we are

:34:08.:34:11.

spending enough on it. We are not. We spend less as a percentage of GDP

:34:12.:34:16.

on our health service than most other European countries. It is time

:34:17.:34:22.

for a new Beveridge deal for all parties, to put aside the

:34:23.:34:24.

politicking over the National Health Service and recognise we need that

:34:25.:34:27.

new deal to protect it for the future. It is no good putting the

:34:28.:34:32.

emphasis on junior doctors, as has happened, to try and stretch out the

:34:33.:34:35.

resource so the government can meet a commitment it could never meet. It

:34:36.:34:40.

is time for a new resource, a new deal for the National Health

:34:41.:34:44.

Service, including mental health and social care.

:34:45.:34:45.

APPLAUSE You are talking about finding more

:34:46.:34:53.

money for the NHS. In the end, that is necessary. The question is about

:34:54.:34:57.

whether it can be taken out of politics. Is that what you meant? I

:34:58.:35:02.

agree with everything said about bringing in social care and mental

:35:03.:35:07.

health, but for as long as I can a member, Labour have obviously thrown

:35:08.:35:10.

accusations at the Tories about looking to privatise and cut

:35:11.:35:14.

everywhere. It has been gone back the other way, Labour being accused

:35:15.:35:19.

of wasting money and spending on middle management. It is something

:35:20.:35:24.

both sides of the quite heart always fighting each other over. What

:35:25.:35:28.

should really be happening is people who know how to run the NHS and how

:35:29.:35:32.

to run these things should be in place. They should be given whatever

:35:33.:35:37.

money they need and allowed to run it.

:35:38.:35:37.

APPLAUSE I work in the NHS. When I joined,

:35:38.:35:49.

the first thing I was told was that every time a new political party

:35:50.:35:53.

joins it will change and it will go around in circles and we will waste

:35:54.:35:59.

a lot of money, and when the Primary Care Trusts went down, the e-mail

:36:00.:36:02.

address is changed and it was the same people. Incredible waste of

:36:03.:36:08.

money. Jeremy Hunt should resign for his treatment of junior doctors. It

:36:09.:36:15.

is appalling. They are hard workers and do not deserve what the

:36:16.:36:18.

Conservatives have done to them. Shame. He should resign.

:36:19.:36:20.

APPLAUSE Amber Rudd. Jeremy Hunt should go.

:36:21.:36:30.

Naturally, I don't agree with that and I would congratulate the

:36:31.:36:33.

combination of Jeremy Hunt and a junior doctors and the BMA on coming

:36:34.:36:40.

to an agreement today. The lies, the lies. Don't you welcome the fact

:36:41.:36:43.

that the dispute is now, we have, over. The fact is, we made a

:36:44.:36:52.

manifesto commitment to deliver a seven-day NHS. Through lies, misuse

:36:53.:36:57.

of statistics. An agreement has been reached and it is a relief. Why has

:36:58.:37:03.

he waited so many months to do it? APPLAUSE

:37:04.:37:09.

There is a Chief Executive of the NHS and he was put in place in order

:37:10.:37:15.

to take it out of being a political football so he could put together

:37:16.:37:19.

the plan, which he did, under the last Government, to say how much

:37:20.:37:23.

money was needed. He said how much was needed and that is why we have

:37:24.:37:27.

put it up so it can be done. Can I say, the real difference between a

:37:28.:37:30.

Conservative government and a Labour government is that we have a strong

:37:31.:37:34.

economy that is enabling us to put in that 10 billion. The finances we

:37:35.:37:39.

inherited from you in 2010 were such a disaster there would have been no

:37:40.:37:43.

chance to be able to deliver on the strong NHS that we are now able to

:37:44.:37:48.

finance because we have a stronger economy. Let's deal with the

:37:49.:37:53.

original question which was, OK, you obviously need wealth to fund the

:37:54.:37:58.

NHS, whichever party is in power. The question was why can it not be

:37:59.:38:02.

run independently, in other words, give money to it independently? That

:38:03.:38:08.

is why we put in place a Chief Executive. What happened when you

:38:09.:38:12.

were in government, your party did this, the NHS act 2010, it made the

:38:13.:38:20.

NHS into an independent body, so the idea was the Secretary of State

:38:21.:38:23.

would have nothing to do with it. Jeremy Hunt spends every morning

:38:24.:38:25.

biting his fingernails over the next A closure. He is micromanaging the

:38:26.:38:30.

NHS from his own department because the act that you and the Tories put

:38:31.:38:36.

into place did not work. What it did was shovel large parts of the NHS

:38:37.:38:41.

into the hands of private companies, many of whom just happen to have

:38:42.:38:44.

directors and owners who are in the Tory party. That is what has

:38:45.:38:52.

happened. Which act are you talking about? I hope the junior doctors

:38:53.:38:57.

throw that deal back in their face. I hope they do. What about the

:38:58.:39:02.

patients. The patients support the junior doctors. Go and meet them. Go

:39:03.:39:13.

to Walsall. First, I rebelled on the NHS bill. Secondly, the key point in

:39:14.:39:20.

all of this, on the junior doctors debate, it is a reminder that

:39:21.:39:23.

resource is the issue. If you keep pushing the ball down the road it

:39:24.:39:26.

will never be solved. It does need to be an all-party thing. If we are

:39:27.:39:31.

going to bring in social care, advance mental health, it will cost

:39:32.:39:37.

more. It will never happen if one party is scoring points of the

:39:38.:39:41.

other, only if there is a new Beveridge- style consensus. But how

:39:42.:39:47.

do you achieve that? Is it achievable? I hope so, because it is

:39:48.:39:51.

the thing that people believe in, probably the most treasured national

:39:52.:39:54.

institution, with the second being the BBC which has also seen a lot of

:39:55.:40:09.

attacks recently. Who was bullying? Booing? Amber did not answer my

:40:10.:40:18.

question of why were these concessions not made months ago? Why

:40:19.:40:22.

have we had people have appointments cancelled, stress on hospitals,

:40:23.:40:25.

really undermining the morale of some of the most important assets to

:40:26.:40:30.

the National Health Service, the people who work in it? That is what

:40:31.:40:36.

he has put at risk. Would it be possible, together to the question,

:40:37.:40:42.

to have some kind of institution, we have had this, therefore, some kind

:40:43.:40:45.

of institution which was agreed between all parties should run the

:40:46.:40:50.

National health? The Chancellor of the Exchequer would give the money,

:40:51.:40:55.

but the detail would not be in the hands of party politicians, not the

:40:56.:40:58.

hands of Jeremy Hunt or a Labour minister. I think you want as much

:40:59.:41:04.

decision-making as possible taken by medical professionals, the experts

:41:05.:41:09.

who should be running hospitals, primary care and running care in the

:41:10.:41:12.

community as well. The only thing I would caution is that if what you

:41:13.:41:17.

simply do is to say we are going to pass all the responsibility but it

:41:18.:41:20.

is still going to be the government writing the check, and not writing a

:41:21.:41:24.

big enough cheque and doing the things it needs to do, then you have

:41:25.:41:29.

a problem. The second thing is, I think they should be accountable to

:41:30.:41:33.

local communities. We would be better having more accountability

:41:34.:41:36.

for the National Health Service and social care together in local

:41:37.:41:39.

communities, rather than it be simply something that a Health

:41:40.:41:42.

Secretary can way into whenever he wants to make a political point and

:41:43.:41:50.

pick a fight. I am so glad we're having this discussion. I think it

:41:51.:41:54.

should be taken out of the hands of politicians. I am on the board of

:41:55.:41:58.

one of the local NHS Trusts and every five or six years you see this

:41:59.:42:01.

pattern of change when the political cycle changes. You need it to be

:42:02.:42:06.

taken out of the influence of political environments. The one

:42:07.:42:11.

thing everyone needs to do is to level with the population in terms

:42:12.:42:16.

of what is really going on. There is a humongous demand in the NHS and it

:42:17.:42:20.

is nothing to do with immigrants. It is absolutely everything to do with

:42:21.:42:24.

ageing demographics, the diseases we can cure now, which we could not

:42:25.:42:29.

before, and the demands placed on resources available. You have to

:42:30.:42:33.

level with the population. Does tax go up, does the service go down?

:42:34.:42:38.

What are you promising? At the moment, you are trying to make

:42:39.:42:41.

things add up and they will not. APPLAUSE

:42:42.:42:47.

I think we already lies we are heading towards all of us have it

:42:48.:42:55.

have a debate about the NHS. -- we all realise. We have an ageing

:42:56.:43:00.

population, a growing population, drugs are becoming more expensive.

:43:01.:43:04.

It is a debate we will have to have as grown-ups as we move into the

:43:05.:43:10.

21st-century. What is your answer? My answer is that we will have to

:43:11.:43:14.

spend more money in future and that will have to go to a general

:43:15.:43:17.

election and a political party will have to put it to the electorate to

:43:18.:43:20.

see whether they are willing to plough more into the NHS. So

:43:21.:43:25.

taxation is your route? I thought your route was to get people to pay

:43:26.:43:30.

individually? Our manifesto at the last general election shed -- said

:43:31.:43:35.

we would plough an extra 3 billion each year into the NHS. The biggest

:43:36.:43:41.

immediate threat to the NHS comes from the transatlantic trade

:43:42.:43:44.

investment partnership, which the European Union is negotiating now

:43:45.:43:49.

with the United States. There is an article in that called the investor

:43:50.:43:53.

state dispute settlement which will allow American corporations to sue

:43:54.:43:55.

the National Health Service if they do not get what they want. Example,

:43:56.:44:03.

at the moment you have Philip Morris suing the Australian government

:44:04.:44:06.

because the Australian government have harmed their profits by

:44:07.:44:09.

bringing in plain packaging. That could happen in the NHS and the only

:44:10.:44:13.

way we can protect the NHS is by voting to leave on June the 23rd.

:44:14.:44:23.

That is rubbish. Amber Rudd, you clear this up. This was in the

:44:24.:44:27.

Queens speech and I thought there was an amendment to exclude the NHS

:44:28.:44:30.

from this agreement. That is correct. The government already

:44:31.:44:40.

takes the view that... Not takes the view, legislates. The first position

:44:41.:44:43.

is that we take the view that the NHS is excluded. And you are right,

:44:44.:44:50.

Mr Chairman, we have agreed that additional legislation will be in

:44:51.:44:54.

place to reassure everybody so they can be absolutely clear the NHS will

:44:55.:44:58.

not be included. While I have the floor, may I say that I think you

:44:59.:45:02.

are absolutely right on your point that there are expectations that we

:45:03.:45:06.

have to manage. We have to decide whether we are going to carry on

:45:07.:45:11.

with what we believe and hope can be a first-class service, with

:45:12.:45:13.

additional problems, and if we are going to pay for them. That debate

:45:14.:45:19.

has to take place. In terms of the independence of the NHS, part of

:45:20.:45:22.

that has been given to the new Chief Executive. He puts together the plan

:45:23.:45:26.

and it goes to the Chancellor and he says, this is what we need to

:45:27.:45:29.

deliver on it. So maybe that system needs to be beefed up, but the

:45:30.:45:34.

principles of doing that, we have put in place.

:45:35.:45:42.

The funds he asked for were taken down a bit. That's correct, but the

:45:43.:45:50.

junior doctors issue, did go back to that, in any organisation,

:45:51.:45:55.

leadership is so immensely important, and Jeremy Hunt, whether

:45:56.:45:59.

right or not, have a leadership important in this, and how we have

:46:00.:46:04.

managed this dispute... He took a leaf out of how Michael Gove managed

:46:05.:46:07.

teachers. If you have a group of people to move towards a certain

:46:08.:46:12.

end, the last thing you do is demoralise them. I am concerned

:46:13.:46:16.

about all those young people out there who might become doctors and

:46:17.:46:19.

medics in the future and think, that isn't for me. He has turned off a

:46:20.:46:24.

generation of people who might otherwise have gone into the health

:46:25.:46:30.

service. Hold on. Just for the people who are never quite sure what

:46:31.:46:35.

TTIP is, what exactly is the implication, as an economist, of

:46:36.:46:41.

TTIP on the NHS? In layman's language? It is a binding treaty

:46:42.:46:49.

that says, look, we, Britain, and Europe, have to open up our markets

:46:50.:46:54.

to American companies and that, if they are unfairly discriminated

:46:55.:46:58.

against, so you can't own the NHS, they can sue us in a court. You have

:46:59.:47:04.

to exempt the NHS. I would exempt a lot of other things. I would say

:47:05.:47:09.

that we should veto TTIP in Europe. It is likely to happen. I wouldn't

:47:10.:47:14.

see this as a leading or staying in issue for Europe. While I've got the

:47:15.:47:18.

floor, I will do what you lot haven't done. There is a $28 billion

:47:19.:47:27.

pounds tax cap in this country. It could be 128. That money should be

:47:28.:47:33.

collected from the tax dodging rich and used to pay for the NHS. You

:47:34.:47:42.

have made your point. Somebody mentioned Michael Gove on the other

:47:43.:47:47.

side of the table, let's have a question that might touch on him.

:47:48.:47:55.

Conrad, please. Prison reform includes suggestions that some

:47:56.:47:59.

prisoners will only go to prison at weekends and be given iPads. Are we

:48:00.:48:06.

being soft on crime? These are the suggestions from Michael Gove for

:48:07.:48:10.

reforms, and you may have seen the pictures of the chaos in Wandsworth

:48:11.:48:14.

prison and others, drugs being brought in by drones. Probably

:48:15.:48:19.

arranged by the department so that their position should be understood.

:48:20.:48:25.

The suggestion is, work at home during the week and more weekends,

:48:26.:48:31.

in prison. Are we being soft? Yvette Cooper. It depends what the crime is

:48:32.:48:39.

that has been committed. If people have committed violent, serious

:48:40.:48:44.

crimes, abuse, there has to be a proper sentence and the public has

:48:45.:48:48.

to be protected, but also vegans need to feel that actually justice

:48:49.:48:52.

is being done. -- victims. But with other crimes you could have very

:48:53.:48:57.

different sentencing where you don't end up having to have overcrowded

:48:58.:49:03.

prisons. It's sensible to look at that kind of reform, educational

:49:04.:49:08.

reform and rehabilitation, but a real problem I have with what they

:49:09.:49:10.

have announced this week is actually what they were really talking about

:49:11.:49:16.

was just six prisons out of 130 would get some flexibility to do

:49:17.:49:20.

other things but nothing to tackle the major overcrowding problems, you

:49:21.:49:24.

really shocking images that we saw on the news last night of some of

:49:25.:49:28.

the things going on in Wandsworth, an increase of about a third in riot

:49:29.:49:33.

attacks on staff, an increase of about a quarter in a tax on

:49:34.:49:39.

prisoners, suicide rates are up, and it is a consequence of having cut

:49:40.:49:44.

staff numbers by a third. You've got prisoners locked in their cells for

:49:45.:49:48.

23 hours at a time because there are not enough staff to supervise them.

:49:49.:49:53.

Unless this is sorted out, all of the reforms will just be a con.

:49:54.:50:00.

Conrad, you were a police officer, I think? Do you think we are being

:50:01.:50:06.

soft on crime? I think if you do the crime, you should do the time.

:50:07.:50:12.

APPLAUSE I don't believe that sending

:50:13.:50:16.

prisoners at weekends only and having the week off to work, I don't

:50:17.:50:20.

think it will work. They have enough cushy time in prison. Giving them

:50:21.:50:25.

iPads, I think, well... How much is an iPad? Paul Nuttall. The cynic in

:50:26.:50:35.

me thought that this announcement by Michael Gove was a publicity stunt

:50:36.:50:38.

but I am prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because, if you

:50:39.:50:43.

look at the statistics, only one in four prisoners who are released go

:50:44.:50:48.

on and find employment, so if you keep them in employment, you will

:50:49.:50:51.

integrate them into back into society. When they do come out, 46%

:50:52.:50:56.

of them go on to commit crime within a year. Those on shorter sentences,

:50:57.:51:04.

that jumps up to 60%, so there is a correlation between how long you

:51:05.:51:07.

spend in prison and the likelihood of you coming out and reoffending. I

:51:08.:51:12.

want sentences to mean what you say. I don't want you to go down for six

:51:13.:51:16.

years and come out in three. If you go down for six, you should stay in

:51:17.:51:22.

the six years. In the end, we can have rehabilitation but I think

:51:23.:51:27.

deterrence are as important. Do you believe in the death penalty? Yes,

:51:28.:51:31.

like the majority of people in this country, I believed in the death

:51:32.:51:37.

penalties for people who go out and kill harmless children, and I make

:51:38.:51:41.

no apologies. One other point, the real issue we have got with prisons

:51:42.:51:45.

is that the budgets have been cut massively. In 2000, for everyone

:51:46.:51:53.

prison officer, there were three prisoners. Now, in 2015, there are

:51:54.:52:00.

six reserve officers -- six prisoners for every officer. My

:52:01.:52:04.

cousin is a prison officer and he tells me all of the time that they

:52:05.:52:09.

have lost control. Between now and 2020, there will be another 15% cut

:52:10.:52:15.

on the Ministry of Justice budget. We need to spend money on our

:52:16.:52:20.

prisons, we need people to come out educated, rehabilitated and then

:52:21.:52:26.

integrated back into society. The man in the striped T-shirt. I think

:52:27.:52:32.

that rehabilitation is really important, but where does the

:52:33.:52:36.

deterrent start? If these people are out in general society midweek, we

:52:37.:52:43.

are acting as the prison officers, almost, in the fact that we are the

:52:44.:52:47.

people in front of these prisoners. They should be behind bars if they

:52:48.:52:53.

have done something wrong for a certain amount of time, where proper

:52:54.:52:58.

rehabilitation and take effect. So it should be done inside rather than

:52:59.:53:05.

out. Paul Mason. I am in favour of enforcing the criminal justice

:53:06.:53:09.

system fairly. How many constituencies are being

:53:10.:53:11.

investigated at the moment for Conservative election fraud?

:53:12.:53:15.

Innocent until proven guilty, of course. It is 29. As a Conservative

:53:16.:53:21.

minister and Privy Council, you will be the first to say that, if anybody

:53:22.:53:28.

worked out to have conspired to link those constituencies together so

:53:29.:53:30.

that somebody knew that the Conservative Party was overspending

:53:31.:53:35.

at local level, that person should be prosecuted, shouldn't they? What

:53:36.:53:40.

does this have to do with the question? A lot of young

:53:41.:53:46.

working-class men get criminalised by poverty and living a terrible

:53:47.:53:48.

life that we should rehabilitate them, but we should be investigating

:53:49.:53:53.

the crimes of the rich and privileged with just the same amount

:53:54.:53:58.

of vigour. Starting with the people who keep their money in Panama.

:53:59.:54:05.

People are in prison for a reason. I go to school in Walsall and we can't

:54:06.:54:09.

even afford iPads. Working-class girls like me and my friends can't

:54:10.:54:13.

learn of iPads at school. Our school can't afford it. Why do prisoners

:54:14.:54:19.

deserve iPads but hard-working girls like me and Ellie don't? The purpose

:54:20.:54:30.

of this reform is a centrepiece of the Prime Minister's desire to give

:54:31.:54:34.

people life chances. What we are doing is investing money and totally

:54:35.:54:39.

reforming the prison service and the prisons themselves, the biggest

:54:40.:54:42.

reform since the Victorian age, to make them fit for purpose so we

:54:43.:54:47.

don't have the sort of numbers Paul quoted, about recidivism, people

:54:48.:54:49.

coming out of jail and committing crimes. We want to make sure people

:54:50.:54:55.

get a second chance. It isn't just that. Is she going to get an iPad?

:54:56.:55:02.

How am I supposed to learn at school without technology? We don't have

:55:03.:55:06.

the funding for computers at work. Hard-working pupils deserve that

:55:07.:55:12.

funding, not prisoners. I have to say, maybe your school... There has

:55:13.:55:17.

to be a quality in the system. A lot of schools now provide iPads for

:55:18.:55:22.

their children as they go through. I hope the education system can help

:55:23.:55:26.

people access iPads. If they can't get their own once, to have good

:55:27.:55:31.

access to shared ones. There is no question of all prisoners of iPads.

:55:32.:55:35.

Some of the elements have been highlighted as if the government is

:55:36.:55:38.

going to be soft on crime, we are not. We want to make sure people

:55:39.:55:42.

come out educated, they can get jobs and make a useful contribution and

:55:43.:55:47.

not go back to crime. We have to remember that not all crimes are

:55:48.:55:52.

violent crimes. You talk about these people being a risk to us. Not

:55:53.:55:56.

everyone is in prison is a risk to the population. And violent crimes,

:55:57.:56:01.

of course, should be treated inside. In terms of rehabilitation and

:56:02.:56:06.

allowing people to become a functioning part of society, it

:56:07.:56:10.

simply can't be done when they are being locked away for 23 hours per

:56:11.:56:17.

day in a cell. Are we being soft on crime? I don't think so. We are

:56:18.:56:22.

being very ineffective on crime, though. Let's look at what prison is

:56:23.:56:26.

for. Three things, to punish people who have done wrong, to make sure

:56:27.:56:30.

there is justice and the victim gets some reparation. Second, to protect

:56:31.:56:34.

society from people who will be endangered to it. Third, it's about

:56:35.:56:43.

rehabilitation, so that those people come out improved and able to

:56:44.:56:47.

function. Just about half of the 85,000 people who are currently in

:56:48.:56:52.

prison will reoffend within 12 months, so many of them are not

:56:53.:56:56.

violent crimes at all. What do we do to make sure we make our country

:56:57.:57:01.

safer? Revalidation is right and just, morally correct to give people

:57:02.:57:08.

a second chance. -- rehabilitation. We as a country will be safer as a

:57:09.:57:15.

result. You, sir, quickly. I am reserving prison officer. I am all

:57:16.:57:20.

for rehabilitation but the things you are asking for cannot be done in

:57:21.:57:25.

custody. They need to be done outside, before release. By the time

:57:26.:57:30.

people get into custody and they are on to the longer sentences, you just

:57:31.:57:37.

need staff. What did you think of the suggestions put forward by the

:57:38.:57:39.

government for people spending five days at home and spending two days

:57:40.:57:46.

in prison? It won't work because you are incentivising people not to come

:57:47.:57:50.

to Britain at weekends. It's a punishment system. One more. Isn't

:57:51.:57:57.

this just a publicity stunt? It is one of the few occupations that

:57:58.:58:05.

doesn't get filled in post. Isn't it politicians looking for the general

:58:06.:58:10.

public to do their job? She can't answer because our time is up. We'll

:58:11.:58:14.

have to try again later. I'm sorry. It really is. Our power has

:58:15.:58:21.

finished. Nick Clegg, we will be in Ipswich. -- next week, we will be in

:58:22.:58:28.

Ipswich. Ed Miliband will be back for the first time since he stopped

:58:29.:58:32.

being leader of the Labour Party. Caroline Lucas for the Greens, David

:58:33.:58:36.

Davis for the Conservatives, and Steve Hilton will be on the panel.

:58:37.:58:42.

You do look surprised. The 17 years, he was David Cameron's strategy

:58:43.:58:48.

adviser. We will be in Cardiff the week after that. An exciting

:58:49.:58:51.

programme in Ipswich and another in Cardiff. Go to the website if you

:58:52.:58:55.

would like to come. If you are listening on five live, don't go

:58:56.:59:01.

away. Here, my thanks to our panel, to all of you who came to Walsall to

:59:02.:59:05.

take part. Until next Thursday, good night.

:59:06.:59:10.

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Walsall. Panellists include Conservative energy secretary Amber Rudd, Labour former cabinet minister Yvette Cooper, leader of the Liberal Democrats Tim Farron, deputy leader of UKIP Paul Nuttall and broadcaster Paul Mason.


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