12/05/2016 Question Time


12/05/2016

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Welcome to you, whether you're watching or listening,

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Conservative Secretary of State for Scotland,

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and the party's only MP north of the border, David Mundell.

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The Scottish Government's Minister for Europe, Humza Yousaf of the SNP.

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Labour's leader in Scotland, Kezia Dugdale.

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The former Deputy Leader of the SNP, now campaigning to leave

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And the editor of MoneyWeek magazine, Merryn Somerset-Webb.

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Before we take our first question, don't forget Facebook, Twitter,

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or text 83981 to comment on what's said here.

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Our first question from Lewis Keller, please? Does the recent

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election result show that Scotland isn't as left-wing as we thought?

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The recent election result last week in Scotland where the SNP came first

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but the Conservatives moved into second place and Labour was

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trounced. Hamza Yousaf? No, I don't think that's why the Conservatives

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had the election that they did. First of all, it's worth mentioning

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that the SNP very much as the left of centre party won the election not

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marginally. Why do you call yourself left of centre party? That is

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because we are. You are going to put taxes up? No. What is there left to

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be done? Abolition of university fees, for example. Scrapping

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prescription charges sothat people don't have to pay prescriptions, so

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there is not a tax on the ill. For example, we didn't give a tax cut to

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the highest earners. The question I want to address is, and I imagine

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where you question comes from, why did the Conservative Party do bad.

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The fact the Labour Party did so poorly wasn't because they weren't

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left-wing enough, it was because people still felt betrayed

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post-referendum. The Labour Party in their blind hatred of the SNP and of

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independence joined shoulder-to-shoulder with a

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Conservative Party that brought forward the most broughtal,

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horrendous cuts to the disabled, most vulnerable in our society. For

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that, they are absolutely punished last Thursday and will continue to

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be. So the Conservative vote went up? Yes. So the Conservative vote

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went up. Why are the Tories getting votes if what you say is true, they

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didn't Tom to you, but they went to the Tories? Ruth Davidson ran an

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effective campaign. -- didn't come to you. It's abundantly true that

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it's more tocks tick become a Labour supporter in Scotland than it is to

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become a Tory and I never thought I would see the day. David Mundell,

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why do you think what happened happened? It's very clear that

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people in Scotland wanted an effective on ziingts in the Scottish

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Parliament. Labour had had nine years to demonstrate how they would

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carry out the role of opposition and frankly they never laid a glove on

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the SNP during that period. So it wasn't because they were

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Conservative? They wanted to say no to having a second referendum.

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APPLAUSE. And people who voted Conservative

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here in the north-east, across Scotland, that's what they achieved.

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Voting Conservative denied the SNP a majority, their number of MSPs is

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down, the vote was down. 400,000 it was down from the general election

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to the Scottish Parliament election. People voting Conservative got a

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strong opposition, made sure the SNP didn't have a majority and hopefully

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we have stopped that second referendum. OK. Lewis Keller, do you

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think this is a see change in politics when you ask the question

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about Scotland not being as left-wing? I wouldn't call it a see

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change although there is a misconception about Scotland being a

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lot more left-wing than the rest of the UK. That's what a lot of the

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argument is about for Scottish independence. When you look at the

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argument for the election campaign right there, it's about tax, the two

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parties said they wouldn't increase tax, the Tories and SNP did the

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best, and the SNP have been calling to get the tax powers for so long

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and now they've got them they refuse to put taxes up and we have seen

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cuts. On balance, it doesn't really look like we have a left from centre

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consensus in Scotland, looks like we have a centre right opposition to a

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centre right Government. APPLAUSE.

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And are you a Labour man yourself? I didn't vote Labour this time. You

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didn't vote Labour? No. Dare I ask how you did vote? I voted Green on

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the regional list. Can I start by saying I take exception to Humza

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saying my party is fuelled by hey tremendous. I disagreed with that

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when you refused to ask the richest to pay for tax so we can protect

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Public Services. What happened last week is that my

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party were sorely defeated and the people of Scotland spoke and send us

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a strong message that they wanted to make sure that they opposed a second

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referendum and those arguments around the constitution came to the

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foreagain. I thought that campaign on trying toving Mo on from the

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referendum arguments of the past, I believed that Scotland wanted to

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move forward, whether we are yes or no, we wanted to talk about our

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future -- trying to move on. It wasn't your tax promises to raise

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income tax that did this? I don't think so. I studied the polls, it

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showed the Tory party was in trouble on the front-page. When you looked

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at the second page, it was overwhelming support for Labour's

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policies on tax. The idea of asking the richest 1% to pay more tax, we

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could protect our public service. The message didn't really win people

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over? I agree, that is to my great regret, but there were 500,000

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people who voted Labour, proud to campaign to stop the cuts to invest

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in Scotland's future and it's new duty to speak up for them. I'm

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interested by the tax thing. Does it make you wonder whether Labour in

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the UK as a whole at the next general election ought to be

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promising to raise tax, or from your rather harsh lesson here, that they

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shouldn't? I don't accept our manifesto was rejected. I think the

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arguments around tax have been well received around the country. I'll be

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the first leader who doesn't rip up the manifesto immediately after an

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election manifesto defeat. So you have a manifesto rejected. I do.

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Look, it was a terrible election for my party. 100 years. 1910 or

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something when Labour did as badly? I lost a third of my colleagues. It

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wasn't a bad night for my party. The people of Scotland also sent Nicola

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Sturgeon a message saying they wanted her to be First Minister, to

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carry on, but she wasn't to have it her own way and Hamza, a little bit

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of humility on your part would go a long way in that regard.

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APPLAUSE. You, Sir, at the front, there? Why,

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after the referendum, do the SNP threaten another referendum? Your

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record in Government isn't particularly good. Why don't you

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concentrate in proving the economic condition in Scotland? Especially in

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Aberdeen with the oil and gas industry in 2 crisis it's in? There

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are more jobs to be lost in this city and it's a very valuable

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business to the Scottish Government. You think they aren't focussing on

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the right things you mean, the SNP Frankly, it's a diversion from their

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incompetence to govern, they want another reference Dutch. They

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usually say it's not our fault, it's Westminster, don't blame me.

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Just wait for the microphone, please? So We are waiting for the UK

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Government to clear their energy bill. Yes. So we've got oil and gas

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authority floating around there that we don't have any kind of clear

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response from the UK Government on the crisis in the North Sea and also

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the cancelling of the obligation to renewables. OK. So there isn't a

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dove tailed UK policy on this. This gentleman here's blaming the SNP,

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it's the UK Government. APPLAUSE.

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Hold on a second, David. The woman at the back, second row from the

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back, yes? Just talking about how left-wing Scotland is, I think it's

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important not to forget that the Green Party increased their vote and

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the number of seats they had in Scotland so the left-wing vote did

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increase in that area. OK. APPLAUSE.

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We do have social attitude studies going back for years which show us

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that Scotland is Conservative with a small C as the rest of the country

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when it comes to welfare, taxation et cetera, they respond in the same

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way as the UK. To suggest that Scotland is more to the left than

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the UK is generally wrong and if you look back, you know when the Tories

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weren't so toxic in Scotland as there's the now not again. Even in

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Thatcher's day when everyone pretends they could haven't hated

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any more more but she was pulling 31, 28, 24%, numbers that weren't

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that awsmt that is a big part of it, that Scotland is not as left-wing as

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it likes to think it is which is a very strange dynamic for a political

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environment. But the other reason I think that the Tories did so well in

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this election is because Scotland really, really does need a strong

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opposition. It needs one very, very badly.

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APPLAUSE. Out occurred to me that if I were

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Nicola Sturgeon, I would cast my second vote for the Tories because a

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good Government has got to have a strong opposition and what we've

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begun to see in Scotland over the last few years is bills going

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through, laws coming through that are, whether you agree with their

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premise or not, they're bad laws because they are not being watched

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properly. Why do you think Kezia couldn't have done that job? I don't

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know, but the fact is she didn't. It's the named person thing which

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English viewers may not know much about. The opposition could have

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been stopped in their tracks and said, this is rubbish, it won't

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work. It would be hard to implement. As we don't have a revising chamber,

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it needs a strong opposition. Scotland is more Conservative than

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it thinks and Scotland understands how important it is in a democracy.

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It wasn't Labour's message that was the problem, it was the fact we

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didn't trust Labour politicians any more, we didn't feel they were being

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honest. It was as if they just changed policy completely. What are

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you thinking of? It's just they didn't seem to be as anti-austerity

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as they were, because it was a popular view that they took on that

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stance. I see. The man in the blue shirt? I think there's been a lot of

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talk within the mainstream media about how much the Conservatives

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have done so well. In reality, they've only got 22% of the vote.

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Also, 11% of the electorate. There needs to be a lot more

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congratulations for what the SNP have done in getting the three terms

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again. So much massive bias from the BBC and I don't want to make too

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much of an issue about that there, but there's not been spoken much

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about how much the SNP have done. Obsessing about Labour and Tory do

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you think? People have been obsessing about that and not

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bothering about the SNP Maybe, yes, but there should be more

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congratulations I think. Jim Sillars will give some applause then? The

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election result was nearly 47% for the SNP and 22% for thetories. I

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certainly say Ruth Davidson fought a very good election. She had the

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no-vote bringing her to only 22%. If you analysed in the central belt the

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SNP went up on their vote under the majorities time after time after

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time. In fact, in Glasgow, the only seat that did not happen was because

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Patrick Harvie who is left-wing for the Greens came second. What's

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happened in Scotland this time is what the electoral system was

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designed to make sure happen, that is a party doesn't get an overall

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majority. Last time when we got an overall majority in the SNP, it was

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a very unusual circumstance. We had the total collapse of the Liberals

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and the slide beginning in the Labour Party. That has not happened

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this time and in fact Scotland's gone back to the Scotland I knew

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before devolution which is the borders were non-Labour, non-SNP,

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the north-east tended to be Tory, the Highlands was a mixture and the

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central belt from Dundee right across to north air Ayrshire was on

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the left of Scottish politics. Now it's perfectly possible to be

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someone like me to be socially Conservative but ideologically on

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the left. I think that's the case with a great many people in

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Scotland. Anybody who thinks that somehow or other we have had a great

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Tory victory, go and look at the results.

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APPLAUSE. .

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I have looked at the results and half a million people voted

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Conservative. More people voted Conservative in the Scottish

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parliament elections than in the UK general election last year. In terms

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of the SNP, the vote was down 400,000 votes. The SNP could not

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turn out supporters to back Nicola Sturgeon and return a majority

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government in the Scottish Parliament. And I think that was

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partly due to the lack of excitement created in the campaign, but it was

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also due to the fact that SNP government has not delivered on

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domestic issues, and people do understand that. We have had caught

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of an hour on this and we only have four of those in the programme. --

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quarter of an hour. What do you mean by socially Conservative? People

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don't like a lot of change. We tend to believe that family life is a

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very, very good thing. A number of people were very unhappy, I wasn't,

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about same-sex marriage and things like that. So you will find, I am

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talking about the central belt, which I know best, that people are,

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in a sense, that way socially Conservative, don't like much

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change, really don't like some of the liberalisation that is taking

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place. But ideological E, and that is the key issue, they are on the

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left wing. I am going to move on even though there are hands up.

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We're in Walsall next week and Ipswich the following week.

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If you want to join our audience, apply through our website,

:17:17.:17:19.

A question from Christopher Cromer. Was Iain Duncan Smith right when he

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stated that the European Union favours the haves over the have

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nots? Iain Duncan Smith said that the EU favours the haves over the

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have-nots. Jim Sillars. You were speaking, but why don't you start on

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this one? I actually don't agree with that at all. I am for Brexit,

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but I will not accuse the EU of being in favour of the haves in

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stead of the have-nots. I think, in their pursuit of the project of the

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United States of Europe, and using the eurozone as a major step towards

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that, they have been very, very unfair to lots of people in Greece,

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Portugal, Spain and Italy. APPLAUSE

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And in that sense he may be right. But I don't think that was a

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deliberate policy. I do not think they said, we will screw the Greek

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folk. That is a consequence of them pursuing a particular project. Well,

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that is Iain Duncan Smith taken care of! Merryn, do you think he was

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right to make this point? Yes, I think there are lots of ways in

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which the EU favours the haves over the have-nots. I hope it is not a

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deliberate policy but it certainly favours large companies over very

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small companies and this matters enormously when it comes to growth

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and competition. It favours people who can manage vast amounts of

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regulation, people who can spend a lot of money on lobbying. It favours

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people who can make large systems work for them, and that tends to be

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big companies, not small companies. Over the last couple of decades we

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have seen the rise of the giant company and the huge amount of

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company that the giant company has, and supranational organisations like

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the EU are supportive of that. So in that sense, it is true. I would also

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say that the euro has been a terrible thing for the have-nots.

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The eurozone has destroyed economies of peripheral nations, and what is

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now happening is something economists call internal

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devaluation, which is that countries around the edges have to push down

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wages and pushed down living standards until they become

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competitive with richer countries. This is terrible. This is an

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appalling way to treat countries in a currency union. Do you believe the

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number of immigrants that come in under EU regulations has pushed down

:20:15.:20:20.

wages for people already living in Britain? In the UK? Yes, if that

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were Iain Duncan Smith was driving at? There is not enough evidence to

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say absolutely but I think it probably is true to a degree. If you

:20:33.:20:35.

have a large number of people coming into Labour market looking for work,

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it is obvious on a basic supply and demand argument, that the price of

:20:40.:20:44.

the things should come down. So it makes sense to think that has been

:20:45.:20:47.

one of the things pushing down wages in the UK. One more thing on that is

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that it is not just that. One thing that keeps wages low is our welfare

:20:53.:20:57.

system, our tax credit system, so you can't blame migration completely

:20:58.:21:02.

when we have a welfare setup that appears to be designed to keep wages

:21:03.:21:06.

low at the same time. That was a competent in answer to a simple

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question, sorry. I would have some concerns over Iain Duncan Smith

:21:14.:21:16.

using social justice in general as an argument.

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APPLAUSE It would imply there is something

:21:18.:21:26.

going on in the background, given that in the last couple of weeks it

:21:27.:21:30.

has been reported that he and Chris Grayling have been reported to

:21:31.:21:33.

Police Scotland by the black Triangle campaign for covering up a

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report into the coroner 's report into the prevention of future deaths

:21:39.:21:43.

Jude to the work capability assessment, done three years before

:21:44.:21:45.

the one that made headlines last year. So the idea that Iain Duncan

:21:46.:21:51.

Smith can be making an argument based on social justice, when he has

:21:52.:21:59.

managed to spin the disability benefit cuts as beneficial somehow

:22:00.:22:03.

to disabled people so well, it concerns me that there is something

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else going on there. APPLAUSE

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The lady in the front row is right, Iain Duncan Smith has a cheek to be

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trying to pretend to stand up for the have-nots. It takes the biscuit,

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in that sense. I think there is a particularly socialist case for why

:22:23.:22:26.

we should stay in the European Union. It has brought a lot of

:22:27.:22:29.

workers rights, protections and freedoms. We do not compete with

:22:30.:22:34.

other European nations on equality and the terms and conditions of

:22:35.:22:38.

jobs. It is a good way to grow the economy. But much of this debate so

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far has been very rational, focused on economic arguments, which are

:22:44.:22:47.

given is I am proud to make. But I think we should revisit the idea of

:22:48.:22:50.

Europe and be more emotional about why being part of the European Union

:22:51.:22:56.

is a good thing. We share this union with 27 nations around the idea of

:22:57.:23:00.

cooperating, we share the freedom and prosperity that comes from that

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union. We should protect it and I intend to campaign with every sinew

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to do that. APPLAUSE

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Iain Duncan Smith says that EU migration causes downward pressure

:23:10.:23:18.

on wages. Do you believe that? I don't accept that. I think it fuels

:23:19.:23:23.

the negative sentiment that has dominated this referendum campaign

:23:24.:23:27.

too much, like the dog whistles on immigration we keep hearing. Do you

:23:28.:23:32.

think he is right? I don't agree with him on this. He is passionately

:23:33.:23:37.

in favour of leaving the EU and will play a significant part in the

:23:38.:23:41.

campaign. But what the EU delivers for Scotland and Britain is jobs. It

:23:42.:23:51.

delivers work. 330,000 people here in Scotland have jobs partially

:23:52.:23:54.

dependent on membership of the EU. And it is those people that we need

:23:55.:23:57.

to speak up for during this campaign. The EU is a positive for

:23:58.:24:06.

Scotland. Iain Duncan Smith, like so many of the people that are in the

:24:07.:24:10.

vote to leave campaign has not set out for us exactly what it would

:24:11.:24:18.

mean to be out with the EU. In fact, different people in the campaign set

:24:19.:24:22.

out very different visions. We cannot take that leap in the dark

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unless we know what it is that is being proposed. I will go to the

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audience. Where shall we go? The man over there on the left. You were

:24:36.:24:42.

talking about how the EU is more beneficial for big companies over

:24:43.:24:49.

small companies. My argument against that is that if we were outside the

:24:50.:24:54.

EU, like Norway, we would still have to conform to the regulations and

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guidelines that go with making goods, for example. The Norwegian

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fish market still have to conform to EU guidelines. That will damage

:25:04.:25:08.

small British companies over bigger companies because of the costs of

:25:09.:25:12.

conforming to those guidelines. Wouldn't fishermen do better

:25:13.:25:20.

outside? The fishing quotas is just a travesty. I think they are

:25:21.:25:25.

necessary, but that is neither here nor there. The man in the checked

:25:26.:25:30.

shirt. What is going to happen is exactly what Merryn was saying.

:25:31.:25:33.

Barack Obama came over a few weeks ago and said what is going to happen

:25:34.:25:38.

to Europe. That is that there is going to be this trade organisation

:25:39.:25:44.

treaty which will come in, and that is exactly what it does. It is going

:25:45.:25:52.

to allow corporate, basically management of Europe, and you will

:25:53.:25:57.

get the same system. It is an American introduced system whereby

:25:58.:26:01.

they basically run the show. What is your plan, to leave or stay? Leaves,

:26:02.:26:04.

absolutely. APPLAUSE

:26:05.:26:10.

How would you deal with the United States? Blow them up, or something.

:26:11.:26:21.

Not entirely constructive! The woman in pink at the back. The issue with

:26:22.:26:28.

this campaign is that you get one argument and there is a way is a

:26:29.:26:31.

counterargument. That is what makes it so difficult to make these

:26:32.:26:35.

decisions. For example, we were talking about wages going down. That

:26:36.:26:41.

is true but the counterargument is that it becomes more competitive,

:26:42.:26:45.

there are more people who are providing services. And for the

:26:46.:26:48.

consumer it becomes more competitive. My personal view, it is

:26:49.:26:53.

a storm in a teacup. It does not make much difference whether we stay

:26:54.:26:58.

in all we leave. There is an art and four and against. You make a

:26:59.:27:01.

decision, we go for it, and it will be fine either way. So will you toss

:27:02.:27:09.

a coin to decide? Why not? What are you going to do? In general, I think

:27:10.:27:15.

it is better to be in something than out, so I would vote to stay in.

:27:16.:27:23.

You, sir. I have been a fisherman for 30 years and I hardly think

:27:24.:27:26.

anyone on the panel has enough time in the day make to me change my mind

:27:27.:27:31.

to vote to stay in the union when we have been discriminated for the last

:27:32.:27:33.

40 years. APPLAUSE

:27:34.:27:39.

And if the UK voted out, what with the consequence be? We would be in

:27:40.:27:47.

power of our own destiny, making choices to benefit Scotland or the

:27:48.:27:53.

United Kingdom. In 2002, there were 525 white fish boats in Scotland.

:27:54.:27:59.

Today, there are 125, and yet the European Union give grants to Spain

:28:00.:28:04.

to build a fleet that in 2022 will be able to fish within 50 yards of

:28:05.:28:09.

the beach outside that front door. You want to stay in, despite that? I

:28:10.:28:18.

will address that. I have plenty of problems and issues with the Common

:28:19.:28:20.

Fisheries Policy, just as much as you. But let me say this. The

:28:21.:28:25.

problem with the UK Government negotiating on our behalf, if they

:28:26.:28:30.

are not negotiating well, my suggestion would be to get someone

:28:31.:28:33.

else to do it and change the Prime Minister and the government as

:28:34.:28:38.

opposed to coming out of Europe. But the SNP want to stay in Europe.

:28:39.:28:41.

Successive UK governments have done this. I will quote the exact words.

:28:42.:28:51.

Scottish fishing, by the UK Government, was seen as expendable.

:28:52.:28:55.

That is utterly atrocious. If you did not have the European Union and

:28:56.:28:59.

every country was going alone, yes, within quotas, but managing their

:29:00.:29:03.

own quotas, I am not convinced you would have a fishing industry to

:29:04.:29:07.

pass on to the next generation. Let me try to address the issue... Hang

:29:08.:29:14.

on, do you agree? No, I don't agree. Even in an independent Scotland, you

:29:15.:29:18.

would maybe have 30 representatives of Europe in a parliament of 170, so

:29:19.:29:22.

how would you get your view across? APPLAUSE

:29:23.:29:28.

We are in Aberdeen, we have a fishing port, stick with that point.

:29:29.:29:36.

One of the advantages of Brexit is that when the UK comes out,

:29:37.:29:42.

responsibility for fisheries and agriculture goes to the parliament

:29:43.:29:48.

at Holyrood. That means for the first time since we joined the EU,

:29:49.:29:53.

we would have our own fisheries policy in relation to our own

:29:54.:29:55.

resources and our own fleet. I want to come on to Christopher's

:29:56.:30:09.

original question. The lady in the front said as well, this is the man,

:30:10.:30:12.

Iain Duncan Smith, the ark ticket of the disability cuts, the man

:30:13.:30:16.

responsible for the proliferation of food banks, to think he's suddenly

:30:17.:30:23.

lecturing us on the haves and have notes is like Trump lectures us on

:30:24.:30:29.

xenophobia. Although I'm from the remain campaign and will continue to

:30:30.:30:34.

advocate for that, the campaign has been utterly depressing. The tone of

:30:35.:30:37.

the campaign has been awful. On both sides? Yes, from both sides but

:30:38.:30:41.

particularly actually from the Prime Minister and George Osborne who

:30:42.:30:47.

advocate for remain, it's been hyperboll I believe, apocalyptic

:30:48.:30:50.

nonsense, it's the resurrection of project fear. It will drive more

:30:51.:30:55.

people towards the exit door and it's an insult frankly to every

:30:56.:31:01.

voter in the country. What have you and the SNP doing, instead of run

:31:02.:31:04.

ago positive campaign you are always lecturing us about, you have started

:31:05.:31:09.

to talk about another referendum on Scottish independence in the context

:31:10.:31:15.

of the EU. This is a referendum about whether Scotland remains in

:31:16.:31:18.

the EU, it's not another referendum on whether Scotland leaves the UK,

:31:19.:31:22.

and that's all you seem to want to talk about. So if there is, if

:31:23.:31:26.

you've got a positive case and I believe there is a very strong

:31:27.:31:30.

positive case to make for Scotland staying in the EU, start talking

:31:31.:31:35.

about it and stop talking about another independence referendum.

:31:36.:31:41.

APPLAUSE. Let me come back briefly. Since

:31:42.:31:45.

David started talking on this programme, he's mentioned

:31:46.:31:48.

independence four times, I've mentioned it see row times. This is

:31:49.:31:56.

a man, for somebody who says he hates independence, he talks an

:31:57.:32:01.

awful lot about it. I've never said I hated independence. I said I don't

:32:02.:32:06.

agree... You said stop talking about it and all you've done is talk about

:32:07.:32:15.

it. There is going to be a campaign started for independence. People

:32:16.:32:18.

watching this from outside Scotland will hear that the remain campaign

:32:19.:32:25.

is bitterly divided. Sounds crazy. You are saying they are screwing it

:32:26.:32:29.

up? I want the SNP to come forward and campaign positively for Scotland

:32:30.:32:34.

to remain in the EU. They say that's what they want, I don't understand

:32:35.:32:38.

why they can't just get on and do it. Merryn? This is fascinating,

:32:39.:32:44.

takings back to the Scottish referendum and the inability of both

:32:45.:32:49.

sides to be able to work together. We saw nit the No Campaign where

:32:50.:32:54.

they weren't able to articulate a common vision for the future because

:32:55.:32:57.

they couldn't agree what it should be. We are seeing it with the

:32:58.:33:02.

European referendum with people on the remain and leave side, they

:33:03.:33:07.

can't articulate a proper vision for their futures because they don't

:33:08.:33:09.

agree on what it is that they want the EEving U to be so they are

:33:10.:33:14.

unable to come up with a vision, just a lot of apocalyptic visions

:33:15.:33:20.

which are generally nonsense. So do you agree with the woman at the back

:33:21.:33:25.

who said that in the end it's so finely balanced? I absolutely do,

:33:26.:33:29.

from an economic point of view I would say it doesn't make any

:33:30.:33:32.

difference either way, absolutely not a jot. So unemployment will

:33:33.:33:44.

rise? All the forecasts from the OECD, the Bank of England and the

:33:45.:33:51.

IMF, they go back 20 years. You will remember what economists were

:33:52.:33:56.

forecasting 20 years ago, whoops, they weren't forecasting deflation,

:33:57.:34:01.

a financial crisis or interest rates being so low for so many years. So

:34:02.:34:06.

forecasting beyond a couple of years is nonsensical. A small bit of

:34:07.:34:13.

volatility for a couple of years. Let's hear from one or two people,

:34:14.:34:17.

then you Sir in the middle? Two points. First point being, why

:34:18.:34:27.

should countries without a fishing fleet tell us thousand do our

:34:28.:34:32.

fishing? With weeks to go now, when's project fear going to kick

:34:33.:34:36.

in? Project fear which you think has not kicked in? Not yet. But you

:34:37.:34:43.

think it will come do you? Yes. OK. The woman on the gangway? Are we

:34:44.:34:51.

such a small country that we can't go and trade with other countries,

:34:52.:34:56.

that we can only trade with Europe, that we can't trade with the rest of

:34:57.:35:02.

the world? Is everybody going to up sticks and leave if we decide to

:35:03.:35:05.

leave Europe? I don't think so. APPLAUSE.

:35:06.:35:11.

You, Sir? You with the pink tie on? I have a concern that if in fact we

:35:12.:35:16.

vote to leave the European Union, Britain leaves the European Union,

:35:17.:35:22.

it could lead to the collapse of the European Union itself. A number of

:35:23.:35:25.

folk have said this would be the case. Nigel Lawson said when asked

:35:26.:35:30.

about this, that it would be no bad thing. I think that would be

:35:31.:35:35.

absolutely disastrous if that were the effect. The other thing is, if

:35:36.:35:41.

in fact that happened or we voted to leave the European Union, and then

:35:42.:35:46.

Scotland had a vote for independence again and the European Union

:35:47.:35:50.

collapsed and Scotland all on its own, where does that leave Scotland

:35:51.:35:54.

then? OK. APPLAUSE.

:35:55.:35:58.

Hands are still up, but we should move on because we've got a lot more

:35:59.:36:04.

questions. Let's just take a break and turn to a completely different

:36:05.:36:09.

point. Zoe Pearson makes it. Zoe, please? Was the BBC right to

:36:10.:36:14.

broadcast the Queen's comment about the Chinese, or is the Queen

:36:15.:36:17.

entitled to have a private conversation? The Queen overheard at

:36:18.:36:23.

the garden party saying the Chinese were very rude to the British

:36:24.:36:26.

Ambassador. Should that have been broadcast? We don't need to spend a

:36:27.:36:35.

long time on this. David Mundell. It came about because Buckingham Palace

:36:36.:36:39.

released a tape on which that material was present. So it was

:36:40.:36:43.

deliberate you mean? I very much doubt that. But I think the Queen is

:36:44.:36:48.

entitled to have a private conversation, we are all entitled to

:36:49.:36:53.

have private conversations. I don't think that it was news worthy in the

:36:54.:37:01.

way that that it got the level of attention and therefore I wouldn't

:37:02.:37:06.

have seen it as a headline news item or a lead item on BBC Online. I

:37:07.:37:13.

think the Queen is entitled to her views and opinions and they should

:37:14.:37:19.

be kept private. Jim Sillars? I think they were quite right to

:37:20.:37:23.

broadcast it. Why shouldn't we know what the Queen thinks about various

:37:24.:37:31.

subjects? Do you think she thinks for Brexit as was reported by the

:37:32.:37:34.

Sun a while back, is that why you say this? No, that's not the reason

:37:35.:37:42.

at all. Why should we say - well I'm a Republican, so just registering

:37:43.:37:47.

that with you. I don't see why we shouldn't know what the head of

:37:48.:37:53.

state says on a number of occasions. If she thought the Chinese or the

:37:54.:38:01.

organisers from China were very rude, I find it quite interesting to

:38:02.:38:05.

know that and it's also important to transmit to the Chinese as well. We

:38:06.:38:11.

are in a diplomatic circle. If you come to the United Kingdom, and if

:38:12.:38:20.

you remember the conduct of some of the Chinese heavies during the

:38:21.:38:27.

Chinese President's official visit, was actually quite outrageous from

:38:28.:38:34.

our British point of view. They stopped people from demonstrating

:38:35.:38:43.

for example. When we go to China, we don't tell you to overturn your

:38:44.:38:46.

Government, for example. Sometimes it's very good for the diplomatic

:38:47.:38:50.

tongue to actually make a mistake and let the public hear.

:38:51.:38:52.

OK. APPLAUSE.

:38:53.:38:56.

What do you think? I think it was probably broadcast basically because

:38:57.:39:05.

the Queen very rarely makes faux pas like that. I don't think however it

:39:06.:39:09.

really was headline news. Kezia Dugdale? Imagine what Prince

:39:10.:39:14.

Philip said? ! LAUGHTER.

:39:15.:39:21.

Look, the Queen is 90, she's had 60 years doing the job that she does,

:39:22.:39:29.

immaculate public service, she's entitled to say exactly what she

:39:30.:39:33.

likes. It was probably news and we were probably right to hear it and I

:39:34.:39:39.

say good on her. Hamza? You are a Republican or Monarchist? It had to

:39:40.:39:47.

be a surprise. For the purpose of independence, we said we'd keep the

:39:48.:39:50.

Queen as the head of state. What I would say about Kezia, I would

:39:51.:39:55.

agree. In some respects, we've all got the older relative that probably

:39:56.:39:59.

says things they shouldn't. I don't think the Queen should be punished

:40:00.:40:07.

or we should be too harsh on her for saying that. If you aren't willing

:40:08.:40:13.

to say something in public, then saying it in private around cameras

:40:14.:40:17.

is probably not a wise idea. People get quite annoyed if people say one

:40:18.:40:21.

thing in public and say a very, very different thing in private. Be

:40:22.:40:23.

prepared to say it in public. The Prime Minister's been caught out on

:40:24.:40:27.

that making remarks about countries that are fantastically corrupt but

:40:28.:40:32.

forgetting that sometimes their own country is fantastically corrupt.

:40:33.:40:35.

APPLAUSE. Merryn? Oh, the Queen. What do you

:40:36.:40:43.

mean "oh, the Queen". I'm not sure I wanted to know what she thought

:40:44.:40:48.

about anything. Are you a Republican? I don't mind either way.

:40:49.:40:55.

I like having a monarchy. I love that she said that. I loved hearing

:40:56.:41:04.

her talk properly and now when I see her shake hands at garden parties I

:41:05.:41:11.

know she's talking gossip. I'm desperate to lip read. I don't know

:41:12.:41:17.

whether any of you caught this but a famous man who lived a long time in

:41:18.:41:21.

Hong Kong who was on Newsnight last night, he said, what people don't

:41:22.:41:26.

understand about this is, when you speak Chinese, it's a very rude

:41:27.:41:30.

language compared with English and he gave the example that when he

:41:31.:41:35.

leaves in the hotel a message for an early morning call, instead of

:41:36.:41:39.

saying hello good morning it's your morning call, you pick up the

:41:40.:41:45.

telephone and they said "get out! ". You should try coming to Glasgow!

:41:46.:41:52.

OK. I want to take this question from Jason Bapty, please?

:41:53.:41:59.

Is the named person scheme unacceptable intrusion by the state

:42:00.:42:01.

into family life? I think this is a fascinating

:42:02.:42:04.

topic... APPLAUSE.

:42:05.:42:10.

It's a... For English and Welsh viewers, I should explain that this

:42:11.:42:17.

is an SNP scheme that by law every family will have to name somebody

:42:18.:42:22.

outside the family to look after, offer advice or support when asked,

:42:23.:42:29.

about every child. So you have a child, outside Scotland people don't

:42:30.:42:33.

know this, so you have a child and godparents and all of that, but you

:42:34.:42:37.

have to name a schoolteacher or somebody who acts as a... No, you

:42:38.:42:41.

don't name them. You don't even name them? The state gives you one.

:42:42.:42:47.

I didn't know that. Stranger and stranger.

:42:48.:42:55.

APPLAUSE. And the named person, I quote from

:42:56.:42:58.

the Scottish Government website "only offers advice or support when

:42:59.:43:03.

asked or when well-being needs are identified". What's this about?

:43:04.:43:10.

Well, I mean, you're not right actually in some of what you said.

:43:11.:43:17.

The advice is only provided when or if a child or indeed a parent needs

:43:18.:43:21.

it for the well-being of the child. This is not a state guardianship

:43:22.:43:30.

scheme. Some of the high -ly and misconceptions are not only vacuous

:43:31.:43:38.

but put children's lives in danger. I had two foster nephews until

:43:39.:43:42.

recently. The children were passed from pillar to post, to pillar to

:43:43.:43:47.

post. The named person's scheme already exists in many parts of the

:43:48.:43:52.

country and has run successfully across many parts of the country.

:43:53.:44:01.

The Labour Party supported us because of the elections... That's

:44:02.:44:05.

not true. We had position and support of other left of centre

:44:06.:44:09.

parties like the Green Party on this. It's a simple scheme. If a

:44:10.:44:14.

child feels they need to talk to somebody, if a parent feels they

:44:15.:44:18.

need to talk to somebody, instead of speaking to five or ten different

:44:19.:44:21.

agencies about the issues they are having, they have one point of

:44:22.:44:30.

contact. Hold on a second... So in effect you are saying that

:44:31.:44:36.

every child born in Scotland will have until presumably they are 18 or

:44:37.:44:40.

whatever a social worker attached to them?

:44:41.:44:45.

It could be a teacher, health adviser. A social worker? Somebody

:44:46.:44:54.

outside the family who is supposed to oversee their well-being. I think

:44:55.:44:59.

it is a state Guardian, and I think the SNP described it as a head

:45:00.:45:03.

gardener, which seemed extraordinary. We have lots of

:45:04.:45:07.

gardeners and lots of plants but we need a head gardener to oversee the

:45:08.:45:13.

well-being. This is distressing for parents, when you think, who is in

:45:14.:45:19.

charge of children in my house. It is not in charge. Anybody who is a

:45:20.:45:24.

good parent, and the vast majority are exceptional, those who come from

:45:25.:45:28.

a loving household will not... So why do I have to have a named person

:45:29.:45:34.

if I am a good parent? You might be a good parent but... I was thinking

:45:35.:45:39.

about this the other day when I was driving in Italy. I got stopped and

:45:40.:45:44.

thought I had done something wrong. It was purely random because in lots

:45:45.:45:47.

of countries it is OK to stop a person even if they have done

:45:48.:45:52.

nothing. In the UK, if you stop a car, they have to have shown some

:45:53.:45:55.

sign of doing something wrong, you need Ariz and to stop them. The

:45:56.:46:00.

named person's policy, in my view, goes on to the Italian side where

:46:01.:46:04.

there can be a random stop, an assumption that you might have done

:46:05.:46:07.

something when there is no sign that you have. There are people watching

:46:08.:46:12.

you to make sure that you are supervising your child. Nobody is

:46:13.:46:22.

watching you. Hang on. We will explore this around the panel. They

:46:23.:46:26.

are not looking at whether your child eats or drinks... Weight. The

:46:27.:46:32.

woman there. I just don't understand. When we have a shortage

:46:33.:46:38.

in teachers in this country, so many people exporting the trade they

:46:39.:46:42.

learn here to countries like Dubai and Singapore, how are you going to

:46:43.:46:47.

be able to fund this? We have not got the infrastructure sorted out,

:46:48.:46:53.

so when you start putting more power in the hands of teachers, you are

:46:54.:46:57.

actually reducing the role of social workers. I can see quite quickly

:46:58.:47:01.

that what will happen is we are going to reduce how much help we get

:47:02.:47:06.

from the welfare state in Scotland at the expense of Scottish children.

:47:07.:47:11.

That is a problem. We need to look at that before we start looking at

:47:12.:47:19.

finding Guardian ships. Are you in favour in principle of a named

:47:20.:47:23.

person to protect a child's interests? The problem with the idea

:47:24.:47:27.

is that when you start saying that every child needs looking after, you

:47:28.:47:32.

are reducing the role of the parent or the foster parent, or these other

:47:33.:47:35.

people. APPLAUSE

:47:36.:47:40.

When you reduce their role, what you are doing is making it impossible to

:47:41.:47:48.

say where the fault lies. You are creating more red tape, meaning more

:47:49.:47:52.

children will fall between the cracks, especially if you are

:47:53.:47:56.

looking at rural communities, like the Highlands. If you have to travel

:47:57.:48:00.

ages to get to school, if you are at college and your place is cut, where

:48:01.:48:06.

do you go for support? Kezia Dugdale. I was the Labour education

:48:07.:48:11.

spokesperson when this bill was passed, and I supported it. I still

:48:12.:48:17.

support the principle of the named person and my reason is because

:48:18.:48:21.

charity after charity came and explained to me that this was

:48:22.:48:26.

absolutely critical, not to protect the most vulnerable children in

:48:27.:48:29.

society but those kids who maybe every other day come to school

:48:30.:48:33.

hungry, or dirty, or having had a sleepless night. Nobody is tying

:48:34.:48:37.

that together and understanding what that child might need. My problem

:48:38.:48:43.

with the SNP position is that they have utterly failed to explain the

:48:44.:48:46.

policy to the people of Scotland, which is why I have argued that we

:48:47.:48:50.

should ask the children's commissioner who in principle

:48:51.:48:53.

support the named person, to spend time running a campaign explaining

:48:54.:48:57.

what it is about and why it would benefit thousands of children across

:48:58.:49:02.

the country. You represent that as a flip-flop. Not at all. It is about

:49:03.:49:06.

understanding what we are trying to do. People have lost faith in this

:49:07.:49:11.

policy edit has to be rebuilt. David Mundell. This policy will be the

:49:12.:49:19.

test of whether Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are listening to the people

:49:20.:49:23.

of Scotland. People want this policy withdrawn. It was bad legislation.

:49:24.:49:28.

APPLAUSE What is bad about it? It was put

:49:29.:49:37.

through by a majority SNP government with an ineffective Labour

:49:38.:49:42.

opposition. The bad thing is that it applies to every child. It does not

:49:43.:49:46.

focus the resources on the most vulnerable. It applies to every

:49:47.:49:54.

single child. Why did the Tories abstain? I think people watching in

:49:55.:49:58.

other parts of the UK will find it incredible that every child in

:49:59.:50:04.

Scotland is to have a named person, regardless of any assessment of

:50:05.:50:08.

their vulnerability. We have made it clear, our position, during the

:50:09.:50:15.

election. It became clear that people in Scotland do not support

:50:16.:50:18.

this approach and it is time for Nicola Sturgeon to withdraw this

:50:19.:50:29.

policy. Jim Sillars. The named person is part of a large act of 103

:50:30.:50:40.

sections, and five schedules. It illustrates where the problem lies

:50:41.:50:43.

in Holyrood. I will come to the named person in a moment. Let's

:50:44.:50:50.

stick with that for the moment. I don't believe a nine to five

:50:51.:50:54.

Holyrood parliament can properly legislate on issues like this. For

:50:55.:51:03.

example, well-being. Well-being has several meanings, depending upon

:51:04.:51:05.

family circumstances and the rest of it. It would not have passed

:51:06.:51:12.

Westminster, let me tell you, on this basis, where the line by line

:51:13.:51:18.

and clause by clause is examined. This is a well-meaning act, but if

:51:19.:51:21.

you look at the sections that actually deal with the named person,

:51:22.:51:25.

there is ambiguity all over the place. My advice to my colleagues in

:51:26.:51:31.

the SNP would be to take away this section of the act and is discussed

:51:32.:51:35.

with the other parties in Parliament. Everyone wants to look

:51:36.:51:40.

after children. Discuss how this can be amended to meet the anxieties of

:51:41.:51:46.

parents but ensure that those children who need looked after

:51:47.:51:52.

actually get looked after. OK. APPLAUSE

:51:53.:51:56.

Briefly, you don't think by its nature it is intrusive for it to

:51:57.:52:03.

apply to everybody? Yes, I think if I were a parent I would think it

:52:04.:52:08.

intrusive. Stephen Hall. We need this question, please. With job

:52:09.:52:15.

losses in the oil and gas industry being significantly greater than in

:52:16.:52:18.

the UK steel industry, why hasn't it been given the same level of media

:52:19.:52:22.

coverage and political support? APPLAUSE

:52:23.:52:36.

Employment in oil has obviously dropped, the price of oil has

:52:37.:52:42.

dropped. David Mundell, there is a lot of government action around

:52:43.:52:47.

steel, why not around oil? There is a lot of government action around

:52:48.:52:51.

oil as well. The Prime Minister was in Aberdeen earlier in the year,

:52:52.:52:55.

listening to what the oil industry had to say in relation to how the

:52:56.:53:03.

job situation could be helped. And in the Budget, we saw major tax,

:53:04.:53:09.

major tax changes. We saw looking at how we can take forward the

:53:10.:53:13.

decommissioning process, contrary to what one of the participants said

:53:14.:53:17.

earlier. We now have the legislation through which created the oil and

:53:18.:53:23.

gas authority, which will look, importantly, at how costs can be

:53:24.:53:26.

reduced within the industry, how we can get more collaboration. This

:53:27.:53:32.

matter, and because we have seen some argy-bargy on the panel, this

:53:33.:53:36.

is one area where the UK and Scottish governments have worked

:53:37.:53:41.

very closely together will stop and one of the outcomes was announcing

:53:42.:53:45.

the ?250 million Aberdeen city deal which will see money go into the

:53:46.:53:51.

harbour, which will see a technology centre in Aberdeen, four example. So

:53:52.:53:54.

we are very possessed of the urgency of this matter. Aberdeen has been a

:53:55.:54:00.

lifeblood of the UK and Scotland for far too long. For decades we have

:54:01.:54:08.

oversupplied the country with money. The thing is, Aberdeen's economy is

:54:09.:54:16.

?82 billion a year, against Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee altogether

:54:17.:54:19.

don't come near it. The taxes that come out of this part of the world,

:54:20.:54:23.

no money comes back. APPLAUSE

:54:24.:54:31.

I am sorry had to rush you. The Labour Party supported the case for

:54:32.:54:40.

tax cuts for North Sea oil and gas but you can only offer tax cuts when

:54:41.:54:43.

companies are making a profit and many companies in the North Sea are

:54:44.:54:47.

not just now, which is why the Labour Party was advocating using

:54:48.:54:50.

public money to almost nationalise key pipelines and protect them. That

:54:51.:54:57.

is the kind of thing we need to do to protect North Sea oil and gas for

:54:58.:55:00.

the short, medium and long-term, so that price rises can grow again. One

:55:01.:55:08.

thing you can't do is assume the oil price will rise again and make

:55:09.:55:12.

everything OK. The oil industry is declining, the price of oil may stay

:55:13.:55:17.

low for many decades. It might go up to $60, it might go back down to

:55:18.:55:24.

$30. You can't rely on this. What really needs to be done in Scotland

:55:25.:55:28.

is to find other ways to boost the economy. This is where the SNP has

:55:29.:55:32.

fallen down over the last eight years. The Scottish economy has

:55:33.:55:37.

barely grown since 2008 while the UK economy has grown significantly.

:55:38.:55:43.

Focusing on oil is a mistake because it is a declining industry that will

:55:44.:55:47.

end at some point. You cannot call it a mistake when it is the

:55:48.:55:52.

lifeblood of Aberdeen. You cannot fix it, you have to replace the

:55:53.:55:55.

jobs. Perhaps eventually the SNP will opt looking at the -- start

:55:56.:56:00.

looking at the scientific evidence and look at fracking again, because

:56:01.:56:04.

that is where an awful lot of jobs in the oil industry can conceivably

:56:05.:56:11.

be replaced. There are still very substantial fields in the North sea.

:56:12.:56:18.

BP boasted that one would last for the next 40 years. It might sound in

:56:19.:56:26.

modest, but I came here in 1977 and suggested that 50p of every barrel

:56:27.:56:31.

should actually go to an investment fund in the north-east of Scotland,

:56:32.:56:36.

so that... APPLAUSE

:56:37.:56:39.

So that if problems arose there was capital to be employed to make sure

:56:40.:56:45.

that that was partly overcome. I was laughed at them. I would suggest to

:56:46.:56:52.

folk in Aberdeen and Grampian, you want to start arguing that case

:56:53.:56:58.

again. Hamza Yusuf. I agree with a lot of what the panel and audience

:56:59.:57:02.

have been saying. We will step up and that is why the First Minister

:57:03.:57:06.

immediately put together an energy task force. The task force will not

:57:07.:57:11.

do anything, which is why we had to put money in and work with the UK

:57:12.:57:15.

Government and other partners. But I agree with the gentleman in the

:57:16.:57:19.

audience that Aberdeen has been used as a cash cow by successive UK

:57:20.:57:23.

governments, and it is about time the UK Government gave back to

:57:24.:57:28.

Aberdeen. And let me say to Merryn, that despite the differences and

:57:29.:57:31.

difficulties that people in Aberdeen have, and we will support and put as

:57:32.:57:36.

much finance as we can to support people, rushing to fracking is

:57:37.:57:40.

certainly not the answer. It is certainly not rushing. Apologies to

:57:41.:57:45.

those who have their hands up. We're in Wallsall next week,

:57:46.:57:49.

with Yvette Cooper for Labour, Amber Rudd for the Tories

:57:50.:57:53.

and the broadcaster We'll be in Ipswich

:57:54.:57:56.

the following week. To join the audience, Walsall

:57:57.:58:00.

or Ipswich, go to our website, I have lost the telephone number.

:58:01.:58:03.

Here we are. We're in Wallsall next week,

:58:04.:58:32.

with Yvette Cooper for Labour, Amber Rudd for the Tories

:58:33.:58:34.

and the broadcaster We'll be in Ipswich

:58:35.:58:36.

the following week. The debate continues on Radio 5 Live

:58:37.:58:49.

until the early hours of the morning so you can follow the arguments

:58:50.:58:54.

there. As far as we are concerned in Aberdeen, I hope you had a good

:58:55.:58:57.

evening. Thank you, and on till next Thursday, thank you to our panel as

:58:58.:59:00.

well, and good night.

:59:01.:59:04.

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