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Tonight we're in Manchester, and this is Question Time. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
And a big welcome, whether you're watching on television, | 0:00:10 | 0:00:13 | |
listening on the radio, | 0:00:13 | 0:00:14 | |
to our audience here, of course, and to our panel. | 0:00:14 | 0:00:17 | |
Tonight, the Conservative former | 0:00:17 | 0:00:18 | |
Chancellor Of The Exchequer, Nigel Lawson, | 0:00:18 | 0:00:20 | |
Labour's Shadow Energy Secretary, Lisa Nandy, | 0:00:20 | 0:00:24 | |
the chief executive of Ryanair, Michael O'Leary, | 0:00:24 | 0:00:27 | |
the Daily Mail's political editor at large, Isabel Oakeshott, | 0:00:27 | 0:00:31 | |
and the poet and writer, Benjamin Zephaniah. | 0:00:31 | 0:00:34 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
And... Thank you very much. And remember, | 0:00:47 | 0:00:50 | |
Facebook, Twitter, and text, the text number is 83981, | 0:00:50 | 0:00:54 | |
are all at your disposal if you want to | 0:00:54 | 0:00:55 | |
rubbish what everybody here is saying. | 0:00:55 | 0:00:57 | |
And they can't get back at you, so it's a good chance. | 0:00:57 | 0:01:00 | |
OK, let's have our first question. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:01 | |
It's from Sarah Reynolds, please, Sarah Reynolds. | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
Few thought Leicester would win the Premier League | 0:01:04 | 0:01:08 | |
or that Donald Trump would be the Republican nominee. | 0:01:08 | 0:01:11 | |
What odds would the panel give | 0:01:11 | 0:01:14 | |
on him becoming President of America. | 0:01:14 | 0:01:16 | |
Well, Michael O'Leary, you're a horse racing man, | 0:01:16 | 0:01:20 | |
what odds would you give on Donald Trump becoming President? | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
Well, firstly, as a lifelong Man City fan, | 0:01:23 | 0:01:26 | |
I should say I am one of the few who | 0:01:26 | 0:01:27 | |
isn't particularly happy that Leicester won the Premiership. | 0:01:27 | 0:01:30 | |
I would give Trump much better odds | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
than most of the media presently give him. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
He was a huge outsider | 0:01:35 | 0:01:38 | |
in the Republican primaries, | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
he's won by quite some distance. | 0:01:40 | 0:01:43 | |
And I think what will play to his strength is the fact that | 0:01:43 | 0:01:45 | |
I think Hillary Clinton is an appalling, poor... | 0:01:45 | 0:01:47 | |
is a poor candidate on the Democrats' side. | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
You have an unusual election in that you have one of | 0:01:49 | 0:01:52 | |
the most unpopular Democrat nominees taking on | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
one of the most unpopular Republican nominees. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
But Trump reminds me in some ways like Reagan, | 0:01:56 | 0:01:58 | |
hugely underestimated and yet electorally successful. | 0:01:58 | 0:02:02 | |
The polls tell us he won't win in November, but | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
I have a sneaking suspicion it's going to be much closer | 0:02:05 | 0:02:07 | |
than people and the polls currently predict. | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
And all these insults that he's been dishing out over the campaign, | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
which Reagan never did, | 0:02:13 | 0:02:14 | |
is that not going to make people turn away from him? | 0:02:14 | 0:02:17 | |
I think that's the nature of the primaries, and, frankly, | 0:02:17 | 0:02:20 | |
dishing out insults has served me very well as a career... | 0:02:20 | 0:02:22 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:02:22 | 0:02:25 | |
-Marketing... -You just insult your passengers, that's it. | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
Oh, no, no, just the competition. | 0:02:28 | 0:02:29 | |
We've been insulting the competition for many years, | 0:02:29 | 0:02:31 | |
it's never held back Ryanair's progress. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
OK. Enough of the advertisement. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
Benjamin Zephaniah. | 0:02:35 | 0:02:37 | |
Um, well... | 0:02:37 | 0:02:39 | |
I think Leicester have done amazingly well, for a start. | 0:02:39 | 0:02:42 | |
Um, I think this season, when it comes to football, | 0:02:42 | 0:02:45 | |
has been a brilliant season of football. | 0:02:45 | 0:02:47 | |
Apart from my team, Aston Villa. | 0:02:47 | 0:02:49 | |
-LAUGHTER -Um, they've played really badly, | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
but they've done it by hard work and passion and belief. | 0:02:52 | 0:02:55 | |
I'm not sure if Donald Trump believes | 0:02:55 | 0:02:57 | |
most of the things he says he's going to do. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
And if he does, I think he'll have a similar problem to the one that, | 0:03:00 | 0:03:03 | |
um, Barack Obama had, in a very... | 0:03:03 | 0:03:05 | |
in a different way, but a similar problem, in that, | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
you promise all these things, | 0:03:09 | 0:03:10 | |
you're going to do all these things when you get in power, | 0:03:10 | 0:03:13 | |
but when you get in, the realpolitik | 0:03:13 | 0:03:15 | |
of being able to do them is something else. | 0:03:15 | 0:03:17 | |
So if Donald Trump got in power and he said he's going to build a wall | 0:03:17 | 0:03:21 | |
to keep the Mexicans out, or he's going to invade China | 0:03:21 | 0:03:23 | |
or whatever it is he's going to do, | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
some people are going to come into his office and say, "Mr President, | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
"this is the reality." And he's going to have to learn | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
some really hard lessons about what politics is really about. | 0:03:32 | 0:03:36 | |
It's really easy when you're kind of in opposition, | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
or you are, kind of, you know, | 0:03:39 | 0:03:41 | |
campaigning, to make lots of promises. | 0:03:41 | 0:03:44 | |
But once you get in power, it's a different deal. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:46 | |
And if he really did win power and he got anywhere near | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
doing half of the things that he says he's going to do, | 0:03:49 | 0:03:52 | |
my friends, it would be the end of the world as we know it. | 0:03:52 | 0:03:55 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:55 | 0:03:58 | |
Yes. | 0:04:00 | 0:04:01 | |
Are you for Trump, the woman at the back there? | 0:04:03 | 0:04:05 | |
No, I definitely am not for Trump. | 0:04:05 | 0:04:07 | |
Um, I just wanted to say I really, um, | 0:04:07 | 0:04:09 | |
I really think that's a valid point by Benjamin, | 0:04:09 | 0:04:12 | |
because that's exactly what David Cameron | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
has done in his premiership, isn't it? | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
He said he would not cut front-line services, | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
that's exactly what he's done. | 0:04:20 | 0:04:22 | |
All those election promises, | 0:04:22 | 0:04:23 | |
they're all not worth the paper they're written on. Not just Trump. | 0:04:23 | 0:04:27 | |
Do you think any election promises | 0:04:27 | 0:04:29 | |
are worth the paper they're written on? Any party, ever? | 0:04:29 | 0:04:31 | |
Yeah, Jeremy Corbyn's. | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
Oh, right, OK. APPLAUSE | 0:04:33 | 0:04:37 | |
Right. | 0:04:37 | 0:04:38 | |
I think we have yet to see that. Nigel Lawson. | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
Yeah, first of all, Leicester, | 0:04:42 | 0:04:43 | |
which is the most important thing. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:45 | |
-I am... -I don't think it's very relevant... | 0:04:45 | 0:04:47 | |
I am very happy indeed tonight, | 0:04:47 | 0:04:49 | |
because you forgot to read out my full title. | 0:04:49 | 0:04:54 | |
Which is Lord Lawson of Blaby, | 0:04:54 | 0:04:57 | |
and Blaby is just next door | 0:04:57 | 0:04:58 | |
to Leicester City in heart of Leicestershire. | 0:04:58 | 0:05:01 | |
I was a Leicestershire member, and it is absolutely great. | 0:05:01 | 0:05:05 | |
It's a wonderful David and Goliath story | 0:05:05 | 0:05:07 | |
and I am absolutely delighted. | 0:05:07 | 0:05:09 | |
I knew I could rely on you to read out your full title if I failed. | 0:05:09 | 0:05:12 | |
I wouldn't have done it if Leicester City hadn't won the Premiership. | 0:05:12 | 0:05:16 | |
The... On, uh, uh, Trump. | 0:05:16 | 0:05:20 | |
I agree with, uh, Michael, | 0:05:20 | 0:05:24 | |
that although he is unlikely to win, | 0:05:24 | 0:05:28 | |
it's not impossible. | 0:05:28 | 0:05:30 | |
Nobody ever expected that he would be the Republican candidate. | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
Also, it is not the case that he would have the slightest difficulty | 0:05:34 | 0:05:41 | |
in doing, if he were President, | 0:05:41 | 0:05:42 | |
which I don't wish to see, but if he were, | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
doing things completely differently from what he said in getting the, | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
uh, nomination for the candidacy. | 0:05:50 | 0:05:54 | |
He is quite capable of changing his mind | 0:05:54 | 0:05:57 | |
without the slightest hesitation, | 0:05:57 | 0:05:59 | |
-but he is... -Are you saying that about any politician | 0:05:59 | 0:06:01 | |
or about him particularly? | 0:06:01 | 0:06:03 | |
No, he is exceptionally that way. | 0:06:03 | 0:06:04 | |
But he is not a... | 0:06:04 | 0:06:06 | |
To compare him with Ronald Regan is completely wrong. | 0:06:06 | 0:06:08 | |
I knew Ronald Regan quite well, | 0:06:08 | 0:06:10 | |
and Ronald Regan was a great man and a great politician. | 0:06:10 | 0:06:14 | |
And before he went into...became President, | 0:06:14 | 0:06:18 | |
he had been a hugely successful governor of California. | 0:06:18 | 0:06:22 | |
California is bigger than most countries in Europe. | 0:06:22 | 0:06:26 | |
I mean, it is a substantial job, and he did it very well. | 0:06:26 | 0:06:29 | |
He had plenty of experience, he knew what he was doing, | 0:06:29 | 0:06:32 | |
and he did it very well. | 0:06:32 | 0:06:33 | |
Trump has never done anything except made money, | 0:06:33 | 0:06:36 | |
he's lost it and made it again. | 0:06:36 | 0:06:38 | |
But... I don't think they're remotely like each other, | 0:06:38 | 0:06:42 | |
but you never know. | 0:06:42 | 0:06:45 | |
We're living in a curious age in the West, | 0:06:45 | 0:06:49 | |
where there is a huge hostility to | 0:06:49 | 0:06:52 | |
what might be called the political establishment | 0:06:52 | 0:06:54 | |
and conventional politicians. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:56 | |
So you simply don't know what might happen. | 0:06:56 | 0:06:59 | |
You, sir. | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
I agree with the panel so far. I think it's terrible that | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
in a country the size of 250 million plus, | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
that we have the choice of either Donald Trump, | 0:07:07 | 0:07:10 | |
or another dynasty, where we had the Kennedys, we had the Bushes, | 0:07:10 | 0:07:14 | |
and now we've got the Clintons. | 0:07:14 | 0:07:16 | |
If they don't do it this time, let's have a better, uh, | 0:07:16 | 0:07:20 | |
process for getting a governor, uh, | 0:07:20 | 0:07:23 | |
a President for the next United States. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
And on the topic of Leicester, congratulations. | 0:07:26 | 0:07:31 | |
-Hopefully... -I don't think we need to go too much on about Leicester. | 0:07:31 | 0:07:34 | |
No, no, no, this is important! | 0:07:34 | 0:07:37 | |
-BENJAMIN: -She started it! -I know she did! | 0:07:37 | 0:07:39 | |
The third one in this, sorry, | 0:07:39 | 0:07:42 | |
is that the UK wins the Eurovision Song Contest. | 0:07:42 | 0:07:44 | |
LAUGHTER And you, sir, on the left there. | 0:07:44 | 0:07:47 | |
Uh, well, might we actually be grateful | 0:07:49 | 0:07:51 | |
that it's Trump and not Ted Cruz? | 0:07:51 | 0:07:53 | |
At least you can make the argument | 0:07:53 | 0:07:55 | |
that Trump doesn't believe half the things he says, | 0:07:55 | 0:07:57 | |
whereas Ted Cruz actually believed everything he said. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:08:00 | 0:08:01 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:08:01 | 0:08:03 | |
Isabel. Isabel Oakeshott. | 0:08:04 | 0:08:06 | |
Well, I don't know, really, anything about football. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
All I would say on Leicester is... | 0:08:09 | 0:08:10 | |
Forget the football! You've come for the... | 0:08:10 | 0:08:13 | |
I'm really looking forward to seeing | 0:08:13 | 0:08:14 | |
Gary Lineker presenting Match Of The Day in his underpants. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
On the question of Trump, there is a sort of | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
analogy with David Cameron here. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:23 | |
When David Cameron was a young MP, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:25 | |
he wanted to get lots of airtime. And when TV researchers | 0:08:25 | 0:08:28 | |
used to ring him up, asking for his views on things, | 0:08:28 | 0:08:31 | |
he would give incredibly strong views, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:34 | |
practically frothing at the mouth, | 0:08:34 | 0:08:36 | |
so that they invited him on to programmes. | 0:08:36 | 0:08:39 | |
And then once he'd secured his slot on the panel, | 0:08:39 | 0:08:42 | |
he would completely calm his view down, | 0:08:42 | 0:08:44 | |
much to the dismay of the producers. | 0:08:44 | 0:08:47 | |
So I think it is entirely possible that | 0:08:47 | 0:08:49 | |
Donald Trump has played a very calculated game | 0:08:49 | 0:08:52 | |
and has exaggerated many of his positions on things. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:55 | |
In terms of how likely it is that he is going to win, well, | 0:08:55 | 0:08:59 | |
it is certainly something that is now being taken a lot more seriously | 0:08:59 | 0:09:02 | |
in the corridors of power here, | 0:09:02 | 0:09:04 | |
and it's interesting to see | 0:09:04 | 0:09:06 | |
people like the Prime Minister squirming slightly | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
having called him stupid and being very dismissive all along. | 0:09:09 | 0:09:13 | |
He may have to retreat on that. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:15 | |
He's now said he deserves our respect. | 0:09:15 | 0:09:17 | |
Well, it's a hasty U-turn. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:20 | |
But, look at the way Trump has fought this campaign, | 0:09:20 | 0:09:23 | |
you're a political observer, do you think it's been calculated? | 0:09:23 | 0:09:26 | |
Do you think everything he says is calculated, | 0:09:26 | 0:09:29 | |
or is some of it just shooting from the hip? | 0:09:29 | 0:09:31 | |
I think it's probably a bit of both. | 0:09:31 | 0:09:33 | |
I mean, make no mistake, Donald Trump has the resources | 0:09:33 | 0:09:36 | |
to employ the best possible advisors, | 0:09:36 | 0:09:38 | |
and he has come from absolutely nowhere to the position he is today. | 0:09:38 | 0:09:43 | |
But at the end of the day, | 0:09:43 | 0:09:44 | |
he is an extremely strong and charismatic personality | 0:09:44 | 0:09:47 | |
probably not particularly good at editing himself all the time. | 0:09:47 | 0:09:51 | |
So this is a man who will shoot from the hip. | 0:09:51 | 0:09:54 | |
OK. You, sir, up there at the back. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
I agree with Lord Lawson about... | 0:09:56 | 0:09:58 | |
Oh, you? Oh, all right, I'll come to you afterwards. | 0:09:58 | 0:10:01 | |
People are sort of, like, sick of the establishment where... | 0:10:01 | 0:10:03 | |
And that's why they've turned to Donald Trump. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
Even the Republicans didn't want him as their candidate. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:08 | |
But then he's still got... It's almost like people | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
don't really care about his policies but they're tired of | 0:10:10 | 0:10:13 | |
the political correctness and the lies of the elite | 0:10:13 | 0:10:15 | |
that they've had for generations, really. | 0:10:15 | 0:10:17 | |
What do you think the odds of him winning are? | 0:10:17 | 0:10:19 | |
I think they're quite good, I would agree that Hillary Clinton's | 0:10:19 | 0:10:22 | |
not a very good candidate, either. | 0:10:22 | 0:10:24 | |
If you place a bet, it's 2/1, now, apparently. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:25 | |
I would probably bet on Trump being President. | 0:10:25 | 0:10:28 | |
And you, sir, you had your hand up. | 0:10:28 | 0:10:29 | |
I was just going to say what the lady said. | 0:10:29 | 0:10:31 | |
If, hypothetically, Trump does win and become President, | 0:10:31 | 0:10:35 | |
does this mean David Cameron will | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
have to climb down off his high horse | 0:10:37 | 0:10:39 | |
-and actually have to deal with him? -Yes! -Yes. | 0:10:39 | 0:10:42 | |
But they're politicians, they won't have any difficulty | 0:10:42 | 0:10:45 | |
dealing with each other once they get elected. | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
Yeah, but if a man of David Cameron's supposedly stature | 0:10:47 | 0:10:51 | |
and all this high education is going to have to deal with a man who | 0:10:51 | 0:10:54 | |
says he's from the people and the working class and | 0:10:54 | 0:10:58 | |
brought himself up, he's going to | 0:10:58 | 0:11:00 | |
have to deal with that type of person. | 0:11:00 | 0:11:02 | |
And if Donald Trump actually says something and does something that | 0:11:02 | 0:11:07 | |
David Cameron doesn't actually like, | 0:11:07 | 0:11:09 | |
what does he do about it then? | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
-OK. -No different to the relationship with Obama. | 0:11:11 | 0:11:14 | |
Lisa Nandy, supposing, let's just take the example of Jeremy Corbyn, | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
if Jeremy Corbyn was Prime Minister, | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
were to be, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:22 | |
uh, and had had to deal with Trump. | 0:11:22 | 0:11:24 | |
That's an interesting relationship. How would that go? | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
Well, I think we've always had a duty to be honest to | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
our friends and allies as much as we're honest to | 0:11:29 | 0:11:31 | |
people that we fundamentally disagree with, | 0:11:31 | 0:11:34 | |
and I think Jeremy has proven over the last few months | 0:11:34 | 0:11:36 | |
that he is prepared to tell the truth | 0:11:36 | 0:11:38 | |
and be honest about what he really thinks, | 0:11:38 | 0:11:40 | |
even when it gets him into a great row. | 0:11:40 | 0:11:43 | |
So I don't think you would have any worries on that point. | 0:11:43 | 0:11:45 | |
I think there is a serious point here, which is that we, | 0:11:45 | 0:11:47 | |
in Britain we love an underdog, don't we, and everybody, | 0:11:47 | 0:11:50 | |
I think, was rooting for Leicester | 0:11:50 | 0:11:52 | |
and has been really pleased about what happened this week. | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
It looks like Donald Trump has come in as a kind out outsider, | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
and he's going to pull off this great political upset. | 0:11:59 | 0:12:02 | |
But if you look behind the drama | 0:12:02 | 0:12:04 | |
and the kind of absurdity of some of the things that he's saying, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
he is a deeply offensive, divisive candidate, | 0:12:07 | 0:12:11 | |
and if he is doing something... | 0:12:11 | 0:12:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
If he's, if he's doing something that, as Isabel suggests, | 0:12:16 | 0:12:19 | |
might be much more calculated, which I think she's right to, to say, | 0:12:19 | 0:12:23 | |
then that is actually even worse, | 0:12:23 | 0:12:25 | |
because the comments that he's made, | 0:12:25 | 0:12:27 | |
particularly about Muslims, but also about women | 0:12:27 | 0:12:30 | |
and other people in America and across the world | 0:12:30 | 0:12:34 | |
have a real life impact on people right now, | 0:12:34 | 0:12:37 | |
and the level of hostility and prejudice | 0:12:37 | 0:12:39 | |
and discrimination that they face. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:42 | |
It's the sort of nasty, divisive politics | 0:12:42 | 0:12:44 | |
that we're now seeing start to seep into British politics | 0:12:44 | 0:12:48 | |
with the disgraceful campaign that Zac Goldsmith and David Cameron | 0:12:48 | 0:12:52 | |
have run against Sadiq Khan. | 0:12:52 | 0:12:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
That is why, that is why, although he has a chance, | 0:12:57 | 0:13:01 | |
he is most unlikely to become President, | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
just as Jeremy Corbyn is most unlikely | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
ever to become Prime Minister. | 0:13:06 | 0:13:08 | |
It's not Jeremy Corbyn who's been running | 0:13:08 | 0:13:09 | |
a disgraceful campaign in London. | 0:13:09 | 0:13:11 | |
All right, this, we'll have the result of all that, actually, | 0:13:11 | 0:13:14 | |
the mayoralty, not till Friday | 0:13:14 | 0:13:16 | |
-or late Friday or Saturday or something. -That's right. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
Anyway, let's go on. We've got lots of questions | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
to get through tonight. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:21 | |
Sorry, we'll come to you on another point. Aberdeen we're in next week, | 0:13:21 | 0:13:26 | |
and Walsall in the West Midlands the week after. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:28 | |
Just a reminder, and there are the details on the screen. | 0:13:28 | 0:13:31 | |
If you'd like to come, you'd be extremely welcome. | 0:13:31 | 0:13:34 | |
Findlay Malcolm, please, Findlay Malcolm. | 0:13:34 | 0:13:37 | |
If the economic impact of Brexit is so difficult to predict, | 0:13:37 | 0:13:42 | |
should we base our referendum vote on moral principles? | 0:13:42 | 0:13:45 | |
And moral principles, | 0:13:45 | 0:13:46 | |
you mean anything but economics, really? | 0:13:46 | 0:13:49 | |
Yeah, so, something like, say, solidarity amongst | 0:13:50 | 0:13:54 | |
the other nations that are in the EU that depend on us | 0:13:54 | 0:13:57 | |
and for our involvement in the EU. | 0:13:57 | 0:14:00 | |
OK, so, Nigel Lawson, I don't know if you agree with the first part. | 0:14:00 | 0:14:04 | |
The economic impact is so difficult to predict, | 0:14:04 | 0:14:07 | |
so other ideas are going to decide how people vote. Or should. | 0:14:07 | 0:14:10 | |
I think the economic impact of Brexit would be positive, | 0:14:10 | 0:14:15 | |
but I agree that it is difficult to predict how positive it would be. | 0:14:15 | 0:14:19 | |
And I agree with you that it is fundamentally a political issue | 0:14:19 | 0:14:24 | |
because the European Union is a political venture. | 0:14:24 | 0:14:27 | |
The whole purpose the European Union | 0:14:27 | 0:14:28 | |
is to create a United States Of Europe. | 0:14:28 | 0:14:30 | |
I am not at all hostile to Europe as such. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:34 | |
I live in France and I love it there. | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
But this is not about whether you like Europe or not | 0:14:36 | 0:14:40 | |
or whether you like travelling in Europe. | 0:14:40 | 0:14:42 | |
It's whether you want to be part of a United States of Europe | 0:14:42 | 0:14:45 | |
and I think most of the people of Europe don't, | 0:14:45 | 0:14:48 | |
and certainly people in France I know well, | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
they don't and they're extremely disaffected with | 0:14:51 | 0:14:53 | |
the European Union at the present time, but their elites want it. | 0:14:53 | 0:14:57 | |
Jacques Delors, I knew very well, that was his whole purpose, | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
and the British certainly don't want it, | 0:15:01 | 0:15:05 | |
not even the British elite want it, so therefore there is no point | 0:15:05 | 0:15:10 | |
in being a member of an undemocratic outfit, which has an objective | 0:15:10 | 0:15:17 | |
which you don't share, so we should love them and leave them. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:21 | |
APPLAUSE Even though you can... | 0:15:21 | 0:15:23 | |
Michael O'Leary. | 0:15:30 | 0:15:31 | |
I couldn't agree more... disagree more profoundly with Nigel. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
He's just fundamentally wrong. | 0:15:34 | 0:15:36 | |
Leaving the European Union will be damaging to the UK economy. | 0:15:36 | 0:15:39 | |
I say that as one of the bigger, foreign inward investors in the UK. | 0:15:39 | 0:15:43 | |
Ryanair employs over 3,000 people here in the UK. | 0:15:43 | 0:15:46 | |
We will invest less in the UK if the UK leaves the European Union. | 0:15:46 | 0:15:50 | |
It will undoubtedly damage sterling. | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
It will undoubtedly damage your economic growth, | 0:15:52 | 0:15:54 | |
certainly for the next three to five years, and yet leaving, | 0:15:54 | 0:15:59 | |
the Leave campaign's only argument | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
is that if you leave, it will all stay the same. | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
Well, it won't. | 0:16:04 | 0:16:05 | |
It'll only stay the same if you can go, then, and renegotiate | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
entry into a single market, which is basically Norway. Welcome to Norway. | 0:16:08 | 0:16:13 | |
What Norway does is, it's not in the European Union, | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
but it has negotiated membership of the single market, which, | 0:16:15 | 0:16:19 | |
to be fair, the vast majority of the UK people wish to remain in. | 0:16:19 | 0:16:22 | |
Norway pays something like the same or slightly more per head | 0:16:22 | 0:16:25 | |
of population to the European Union, | 0:16:25 | 0:16:27 | |
despite not being a member, | 0:16:27 | 0:16:29 | |
and it has to obey about 95% of the regulations coming | 0:16:29 | 0:16:32 | |
out of Brussels, so you're being sold a lie by people who | 0:16:32 | 0:16:35 | |
tell you if you leave, it will all stay the same. It won't. | 0:16:35 | 0:16:38 | |
You should stay and, | 0:16:38 | 0:16:40 | |
like Nigel's previous government under Mrs Thatcher, | 0:16:40 | 0:16:42 | |
you should help to reform the European Union from within, | 0:16:42 | 0:16:45 | |
and to be fair to David Cameron, I think he's done a good job. | 0:16:45 | 0:16:48 | |
What do you say to the point Nigel Lawson made about everybody | 0:16:48 | 0:16:50 | |
else wants something different from what Britain wants, a United States | 0:16:50 | 0:16:53 | |
-of Europe? -I don't think they do. | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
As somebody who's Irish, what I want | 0:16:55 | 0:16:56 | |
is pretty much what most people in the UK want - I want | 0:16:56 | 0:16:59 | |
a single market, a single market where you're free to move around, | 0:16:59 | 0:17:02 | |
where there's less regulation, where there's less bureaucracy. | 0:17:02 | 0:17:04 | |
David Cameron has negotiated reforms | 0:17:04 | 0:17:07 | |
which protects sterling from the European Union, | 0:17:07 | 0:17:09 | |
protects the UK taxpayer from funding out any other Euro bailouts, | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
and protects the UK from closer European integration. | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
Nigel is simply wrong in his analysis. | 0:17:17 | 0:17:18 | |
-NIGEL: -That's not true. -It is true. | 0:17:18 | 0:17:20 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:17:20 | 0:17:21 | |
We'll come back to that point. | 0:17:21 | 0:17:23 | |
The woman there in the second row from the back. | 0:17:23 | 0:17:25 | |
I'd also disagree with Nigel because, personally, | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
I DO need to stay part of the EU to get a free education. | 0:17:28 | 0:17:30 | |
My country has failed me | 0:17:30 | 0:17:32 | |
and I'm having to move to Sweden to get a free education at university | 0:17:32 | 0:17:35 | |
so it will affect people and people do not want it to happen. | 0:17:35 | 0:17:38 | |
APPLAUSE OK, and you, sir, in yellow. Yes? | 0:17:38 | 0:17:41 | |
Some people would regard democracy as more important than | 0:17:41 | 0:17:44 | |
an extra few quid by doing the trade deals that we supposedly won't get. | 0:17:44 | 0:17:48 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:17:48 | 0:17:50 | |
OK. And you down there. | 0:17:50 | 0:17:52 | |
Mr O'Leary, I think you skipped the point. | 0:17:53 | 0:17:56 | |
The problem that we have with the Remain campaign, | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
you're not running a positive campaign. | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
All we hear every other day is scare stories or, | 0:18:00 | 0:18:03 | |
"There's going to be an apocalypse if we leave," | 0:18:03 | 0:18:05 | |
and we'll lose 6% of GDP by 2030. | 0:18:05 | 0:18:08 | |
Why is it there's no positive campaign? | 0:18:08 | 0:18:11 | |
Fair enough, granted, Brexit is running a scare campaign as well, | 0:18:11 | 0:18:15 | |
but if you want people to buy into the EU, | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
to be part of it, to reform it, then you need to run a positive campaign, | 0:18:17 | 0:18:21 | |
-not try to scare the living hell out of us. -I'll come back to you. | 0:18:21 | 0:18:24 | |
Let's go round the panel. Isabel Oakeshott. | 0:18:24 | 0:18:27 | |
Well, Michael, I can well understand why you want to stay in the EU | 0:18:27 | 0:18:31 | |
because the EU works very well for enormous companies like yours. | 0:18:31 | 0:18:36 | |
It's very different if you run a small business where you find | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
that the EU, you have to comply | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
with the same set of regulations as a huge company like yours | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
and you are effectively strangulated by the regulation | 0:18:45 | 0:18:49 | |
and all the red tape, so I think the small businesses, | 0:18:49 | 0:18:53 | |
they are the backbone of our economy and I think that the economic debate | 0:18:53 | 0:18:58 | |
around Brexit has been characterised by | 0:18:58 | 0:19:02 | |
the most deplorable scaremongering on the part of both the Government | 0:19:02 | 0:19:06 | |
and the Remain campaigners. | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:09 | 0:19:10 | |
We don't know what the economic impact is going to be, | 0:19:14 | 0:19:17 | |
but it's not going to be an apocalypse. | 0:19:17 | 0:19:20 | |
And for many people, | 0:19:20 | 0:19:21 | |
as the gentleman up there said, this isn't about | 0:19:21 | 0:19:24 | |
a few quid here or there, it is about our sovereignty | 0:19:24 | 0:19:28 | |
and our ability to control our borders | 0:19:28 | 0:19:31 | |
and how many people we have coming here. | 0:19:31 | 0:19:33 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:33 | 0:19:36 | |
Lisa Nandy. | 0:19:36 | 0:19:38 | |
Well, I don't think it's scaremongering to point out | 0:19:38 | 0:19:41 | |
that Europe is by far our biggest export market, | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
that if you look at a whole host of voices from our Government, | 0:19:45 | 0:19:49 | |
to financial experts, to the President of the United States, | 0:19:49 | 0:19:54 | |
they've all pointed out that there would be serious problems | 0:19:54 | 0:19:57 | |
for Britain if we came out and I don't think that is | 0:19:57 | 0:19:59 | |
scaremongering, but I do take the point that this gentleman made | 0:19:59 | 0:20:02 | |
about the positive case for Europe, | 0:20:02 | 0:20:05 | |
and I think there is a positive, a moral case for Europe, | 0:20:05 | 0:20:08 | |
a case that says there is another Europe, a Europe that has been | 0:20:08 | 0:20:12 | |
a forum for solidarity of working people in countries | 0:20:12 | 0:20:16 | |
across Europe that has won and protected us rights at work | 0:20:16 | 0:20:19 | |
like paternity leave and maternity leave, | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
and the right to challenge employers, | 0:20:22 | 0:20:24 | |
and health and safety laws that have | 0:20:24 | 0:20:26 | |
actually kept some of my constituents in Wigan alive | 0:20:26 | 0:20:29 | |
as a result, and I think there's another Europe as well, | 0:20:29 | 0:20:31 | |
the sort of Europe that helps us to deal with the major challenges | 0:20:31 | 0:20:36 | |
that we in Britain face, | 0:20:36 | 0:20:38 | |
whether it's the mass movement of people, | 0:20:38 | 0:20:40 | |
whether it's global terrorism or whether it's climate change. | 0:20:40 | 0:20:44 | |
Just a few months ago, the fact that we were able to work with | 0:20:44 | 0:20:48 | |
the rest of the European Union to tackle climate change | 0:20:48 | 0:20:51 | |
didn't just help to raise our ambition in Britain, | 0:20:51 | 0:20:54 | |
it helped to raise Europe's ambition and it helped to raise | 0:20:54 | 0:20:56 | |
the world's ambition, and that's why I think we're better off in Europe. | 0:20:56 | 0:21:00 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:21:00 | 0:21:03 | |
What do you say to the point Nigel Lawson made, that these | 0:21:04 | 0:21:09 | |
other states want a United States of Europe and we don't, | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
and therefore should get out? | 0:21:12 | 0:21:14 | |
I just think that we've heard a lot from the other side about how | 0:21:14 | 0:21:18 | |
everything will be fine when we leave the European Union, | 0:21:18 | 0:21:22 | |
we'll be able to trade with other nations, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
negotiate our own deals, but then you have the President of the | 0:21:24 | 0:21:27 | |
United States, who comes over and says, actually, no, that's not true. | 0:21:27 | 0:21:30 | |
That wasn't the point he was making. | 0:21:30 | 0:21:31 | |
He was making the point that this was going to become | 0:21:31 | 0:21:34 | |
a United States of Europe, which we didn't want. | 0:21:34 | 0:21:36 | |
Well, I think what we've seen over the last few years, actually, | 0:21:36 | 0:21:39 | |
is that we get to make decisions | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
about some of those really important issues. | 0:21:41 | 0:21:43 | |
So, for example, Isabel talked about unrestricted immigration. | 0:21:43 | 0:21:47 | |
We are currently having a row in the UK | 0:21:47 | 0:21:50 | |
about whether we can stand up and take just 3,000 of the 90,000 | 0:21:50 | 0:21:55 | |
displaced children fleeing war in Syria that are currently in Europe. | 0:21:55 | 0:21:59 | |
If that tells you anything, | 0:21:59 | 0:22:01 | |
it tells you that we have the power to control our own borders | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
if we can't even be bothered to take such a small number of children... | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
What I'd like to do... Hang on. What I'd like to do is hear from | 0:22:10 | 0:22:12 | |
one or two more members of the audience. | 0:22:12 | 0:22:14 | |
I'm leaving Benjamin Zephaniah on the side for the moment | 0:22:14 | 0:22:17 | |
because I know he says he has no idea how he's going to vote, | 0:22:17 | 0:22:20 | |
so I thought he could listen to all the arguments and then we can hear | 0:22:20 | 0:22:23 | |
whether you've decided. | 0:22:23 | 0:22:24 | |
But hold on just a second. The man there in the blue shirt. | 0:22:24 | 0:22:27 | |
If we were to leave the EU, | 0:22:27 | 0:22:29 | |
would it be the end of cheap flights from Europe destinations... | 0:22:29 | 0:22:32 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:22:32 | 0:22:34 | |
..and would we impose a levy on British flights to Europe? | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
We'll hold on to that one, I'll make a note of that. You, sir, here. | 0:22:38 | 0:22:41 | |
The second, yes. | 0:22:41 | 0:22:43 | |
Erm, I think the point that Brexit's saying | 0:22:43 | 0:22:47 | |
everything will be fine, no change, is not right. | 0:22:47 | 0:22:51 | |
I think a lot of people are recognising that there will be | 0:22:51 | 0:22:53 | |
possibly a dip in various economic things, but it'll come back later, | 0:22:53 | 0:22:59 | |
and I don't think Obama actually said anything terrible. | 0:22:59 | 0:23:03 | |
If you listen to what he said, | 0:23:03 | 0:23:05 | |
he was talking in terms of a US deal being negotiated at the moment | 0:23:05 | 0:23:09 | |
and they'll do that first and we'll be after that. That's no biggie. | 0:23:09 | 0:23:13 | |
OK, and you there, the woman there, yes. | 0:23:13 | 0:23:16 | |
I think if we're going to talk about the morality | 0:23:16 | 0:23:19 | |
and democracy within the EU, | 0:23:19 | 0:23:20 | |
I think we have to look at the way that they've | 0:23:20 | 0:23:22 | |
treated Greece and the way they've held them hostage with the bailouts. | 0:23:22 | 0:23:26 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:26 | 0:23:28 | |
Benjamin Zephaniah. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:33 | |
-Well, I'm still undecided! -LAUGHTER | 0:23:33 | 0:23:35 | |
-You haven't got THAT long, you know! -I know. -49 days, or 48. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:39 | |
I can't remember where we are now. How many days is it? | 0:23:39 | 0:23:42 | |
It's interesting. I was going to say, until Lisa spoke, | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
that nobody actually really addressed the question. | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
It was about ethics and morals. | 0:23:48 | 0:23:53 | |
Everybody talked about economics apart from Lisa. | 0:23:53 | 0:23:56 | |
-NIGEL: -We talked about politics to some extent. | 0:23:56 | 0:23:59 | |
Well, the question was about morals and ethics, as far as I remember. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:03 | |
The question... Well, Findlay can say what the question was again, | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
but it was saying the economics are difficult to predict, one way | 0:24:06 | 0:24:10 | |
or the other, and therefore it's about other issues. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
That's right, Findlay, isn't it, roughly? | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
And I think mass disagreement on the panel just demonstrates | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
how difficult it is to predict, | 0:24:17 | 0:24:19 | |
amongst people who are qualified and able to predict it! | 0:24:19 | 0:24:23 | |
Yes, and I'm completely unqualified, but I'm passionate about it. | 0:24:23 | 0:24:27 | |
Now, this may sound like a strange thing to say in this arena, | 0:24:27 | 0:24:30 | |
and I can understand a lot of people not understanding this, | 0:24:30 | 0:24:33 | |
but I believe in a USA. | 0:24:33 | 0:24:36 | |
I believe in a United States of Africa. | 0:24:36 | 0:24:39 | |
I believe in a United States of Asia. | 0:24:39 | 0:24:42 | |
I believe in a United Arab States. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:45 | |
States getting together and working for the betterment of their people, | 0:24:45 | 0:24:48 | |
not becoming a kind of European superstate | 0:24:48 | 0:24:51 | |
as some people are not keen on, but just... | 0:24:51 | 0:24:54 | |
I've been in Africa and wanted to get from one country to another | 0:24:54 | 0:24:57 | |
and I had to fly to another European country before I could do it because | 0:24:57 | 0:25:00 | |
these countries are not talking to each other, so at the heart of it, | 0:25:00 | 0:25:03 | |
I like the idea of countries coming together and working together. | 0:25:03 | 0:25:06 | |
I remember when I was a kid and it was the Common Market, | 0:25:06 | 0:25:09 | |
that's what it seemed to be about, | 0:25:09 | 0:25:11 | |
and I also am very keen on having the politicians | 0:25:11 | 0:25:15 | |
that I elect very close to me, so you see my confusion. | 0:25:15 | 0:25:19 | |
You are, you've got a problem anyway, with that! | 0:25:19 | 0:25:22 | |
But, but, I've looked at all the, kind of, as much as I can, | 0:25:22 | 0:25:26 | |
the economic arguments and all that, | 0:25:26 | 0:25:29 | |
and what it boils down to for me is how it affects people on the street, | 0:25:29 | 0:25:34 | |
and, from what I understand... | 0:25:34 | 0:25:37 | |
..if it wasn't for the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU | 0:25:38 | 0:25:43 | |
and lots of other European courts, | 0:25:43 | 0:25:45 | |
a lot of black people wouldn't have got their rights in this country, | 0:25:45 | 0:25:48 | |
a lot of women, a lot of working people wouldn't have their rights. | 0:25:48 | 0:25:51 | |
We couldn't rely on the Tories or Tony Blair to give it to us. | 0:25:51 | 0:25:54 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:25:54 | 0:25:56 | |
Nigel. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:57 | |
I don't think Benjamin is right. | 0:25:59 | 0:26:02 | |
We have had a legal system, which has protected rights, | 0:26:02 | 0:26:07 | |
human rights, for years and generations. | 0:26:07 | 0:26:11 | |
It's got nothing whatever to do with the European Union. | 0:26:11 | 0:26:14 | |
-APPLAUSE -Aren't we trying to drop out of human rights charter? | 0:26:14 | 0:26:16 | |
It has nothing to do with the European Union. | 0:26:16 | 0:26:19 | |
On the economics, Isabel is absolutely right that | 0:26:19 | 0:26:23 | |
the regulation, there is the excessive regulation, | 0:26:23 | 0:26:26 | |
excessive red tape, is strangling small and medium-sized enterprises. | 0:26:26 | 0:26:30 | |
-LISA: -And yet they still support being part of Europe. | 0:26:30 | 0:26:32 | |
No, they don't. | 0:26:32 | 0:26:34 | |
-ISABEL: -No, they don't, that's just inaccurate. | 0:26:34 | 0:26:36 | |
It's the big boys, it's the CBI and the banks | 0:26:36 | 0:26:38 | |
and all these big boys who do, it is not the small companies. | 0:26:38 | 0:26:42 | |
They are opposed to it, | 0:26:42 | 0:26:43 | |
but it is not, at heart, an economic issue, | 0:26:43 | 0:26:46 | |
it is whether you believe in democracy, | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
whether you believe in self-government | 0:26:49 | 0:26:51 | |
and as for cooperation, as for cooperation, | 0:26:51 | 0:26:54 | |
cooperation in the modern world needs to be global. | 0:26:54 | 0:26:57 | |
The idea that cooperation should just be within Europe is crazy, | 0:26:57 | 0:27:01 | |
it's crackers, | 0:27:01 | 0:27:02 | |
and we do have wonderful cooperation through the Commonwealth, | 0:27:02 | 0:27:06 | |
through the membership | 0:27:06 | 0:27:09 | |
of the Security Council of the United Nations, | 0:27:09 | 0:27:11 | |
through the so-called Five Eyes security system, | 0:27:11 | 0:27:14 | |
which we have with the United States, Canada, New Zealand | 0:27:14 | 0:27:17 | |
and Australia, through Nato, which is very important around defence. | 0:27:17 | 0:27:21 | |
It is that which is important, but our own borders are important, | 0:27:21 | 0:27:25 | |
too, and we do not have control, despite what Lisa said. | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
We simply do not have control over our borders. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
-LISA: -Nigel... -Anybody... Let me finish the sentence. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:34 | |
Anybody who has a European Union passport has the right to come here, | 0:27:34 | 0:27:39 | |
live here and work here, and there's nothing we can do about it, | 0:27:39 | 0:27:43 | |
and thinking, and this is going to be extended to 75 million Turks. | 0:27:43 | 0:27:48 | |
Er, that's on... | 0:27:48 | 0:27:50 | |
-Oh, no. No, it's not. -But Nigel, you don't mind going to France. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:52 | |
-This is completely... -But you don't mind going to France! | 0:27:52 | 0:27:55 | |
-APPLAUSE -No, of course not. | 0:27:55 | 0:27:57 | |
-I don't. -This is the sort of misinformation that is really | 0:27:57 | 0:28:00 | |
-putting people off this campaign. -It's true. -MICHAEL: -It's rubbish. | 0:28:00 | 0:28:03 | |
Back to Findlay's question, it helps to go back | 0:28:03 | 0:28:05 | |
to one of Bill Clinton's great maxims - people go to vote, | 0:28:05 | 0:28:08 | |
generally "It's on the economy, stupid." | 0:28:08 | 0:28:10 | |
We're all in favour of very moral arguments, | 0:28:10 | 0:28:12 | |
but most people at general elections | 0:28:12 | 0:28:14 | |
and at big elections will vote on how they think it's going to | 0:28:14 | 0:28:17 | |
affect the economy, their family and their children's future. | 0:28:17 | 0:28:20 | |
I was entertained with Isabel's shot at someone working for | 0:28:20 | 0:28:24 | |
the Daily Mail slagging off Ryanair for being a big company, | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 | |
but can I address, we got to be a big company by actually offering | 0:28:27 | 0:28:30 | |
low fares all over Europe. | 0:28:30 | 0:28:32 | |
We were only able to do that because the airlines were deregulated | 0:28:32 | 0:28:35 | |
under a single market in Europe. The regulation was taken away. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:39 | |
Other than that, we were only free to fly somewhere from Ireland. | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
That has transformed the lives of millions of UK citizens. | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
We carry about 35 million passengers a year to and between the UK | 0:28:45 | 0:28:48 | |
and Europe. It has transformed. | 0:28:48 | 0:28:50 | |
Everybody under the age of 40 doesn't remember | 0:28:50 | 0:28:52 | |
when BA used to charge you 500 quid to get to Paris | 0:28:52 | 0:28:56 | |
and you had to stay a Saturday night if you wanted a cheaper fare. | 0:28:56 | 0:28:59 | |
The single market has delivered low-fare travel. | 0:28:59 | 0:29:01 | |
It has delivered holidays and actually, the UK Government... | 0:29:01 | 0:29:04 | |
-BENJAMIN: -Money, money, money again! -No, no, the UK Government has been | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 | |
regressive in that because it was a Labour Government under Gordon Brown | 0:29:07 | 0:29:10 | |
that introduced APD that reversed low-fare air travel | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
by taxing low-fare air travel. | 0:29:13 | 0:29:15 | |
Listen, the way democracy's going in this country at the moment, | 0:29:15 | 0:29:18 | |
if you had a general election today, | 0:29:18 | 0:29:21 | |
the people would probably vote for Votey McVoteface. | 0:29:21 | 0:29:24 | |
The problem is, you don't have | 0:29:24 | 0:29:25 | |
-a general election today. -APPLAUSE | 0:29:25 | 0:29:27 | |
You're going to have a referendum on Europe. | 0:29:27 | 0:29:29 | |
OK, you, sir, in the front, here. | 0:29:29 | 0:29:31 | |
-The question originally was about moral principles. -Yes. | 0:29:31 | 0:29:33 | |
"Should we decide on moral principles?" | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
Neil Kinnock was rejected by this electorate, | 0:29:35 | 0:29:37 | |
by the British electorate, on two separate occasions. | 0:29:37 | 0:29:40 | |
He then resigned, went off to the European Commission | 0:29:40 | 0:29:43 | |
and took upon himself greater powers than our Prime Minister. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:47 | |
Is it morally right that a man who is unelected and rejected | 0:29:47 | 0:29:50 | |
by the British population then takes upon himself more power? | 0:29:50 | 0:29:55 | |
Is it morally right that the European Commission have | 0:29:55 | 0:29:58 | |
spent the last three years negotiating, in secret, the TTIP, | 0:29:58 | 0:30:03 | |
with the Bilderberg Group at their backing? | 0:30:03 | 0:30:06 | |
Is it morally right that these people have power over us | 0:30:06 | 0:30:10 | |
and we don't have the democratic right to get rid of these people | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
that we don't want? | 0:30:13 | 0:30:15 | |
CHEERING | 0:30:15 | 0:30:20 | |
-Can you directly answer his question? -Yeah, no, of course I can. | 0:30:25 | 0:30:28 | |
I mean, I... So, I think you're right that Europe needs reform, | 0:30:28 | 0:30:32 | |
and I don't think that you will find many people in the Labour Party | 0:30:32 | 0:30:36 | |
who are arguing that we should remain, | 0:30:36 | 0:30:38 | |
that don't believe that Europe needs fundamental reform - | 0:30:38 | 0:30:41 | |
much more transparency, much more democracy, | 0:30:41 | 0:30:45 | |
and decisions made closer to the people that they actually effect. | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
-But we've just tried to reform it. -Just, just... | 0:30:48 | 0:30:50 | |
-We've just tried and it didn't work. -Just a moment, Isabel. | 0:30:50 | 0:30:53 | |
I agree with you about that, | 0:30:53 | 0:30:55 | |
but the idea that we would be able to take back more control | 0:30:55 | 0:31:00 | |
over the things that affect our lives - | 0:31:00 | 0:31:02 | |
whether it's climate change or jobs, | 0:31:02 | 0:31:04 | |
or terrorism or drugs or immigration - | 0:31:04 | 0:31:07 | |
by cooperating less rather than more, is just fantasy. | 0:31:07 | 0:31:09 | |
-All right, Isabel... -You've got a group of people over here | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
who are arguing about sovereignty, and they are giving away our power. | 0:31:11 | 0:31:15 | |
-We're not going to within the EU. -Don't let them do it. | 0:31:15 | 0:31:17 | |
It's going to be diluted, the more countries that come in, | 0:31:17 | 0:31:19 | |
our influence is going to be diluted. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:21 | |
How can you possibly think that we are going to have | 0:31:21 | 0:31:24 | |
a greater influence when there's five more countries being | 0:31:24 | 0:31:27 | |
touted to come into the European Union? | 0:31:27 | 0:31:29 | |
APPLAUSE All right, Isabel... | 0:31:29 | 0:31:31 | |
Isabel Oakeshott, and then I'll come to you. | 0:31:35 | 0:31:37 | |
Let me just come in on the very interesting points that Benjamin | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
made about some of the moral questions and the rights for people. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:44 | |
I think that your question was kind of based on a false presumption | 0:31:44 | 0:31:49 | |
that we somehow lag behind other countries, | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
when it comes to moral decency and common decency, | 0:31:52 | 0:31:56 | |
and actually we lead the way in many of those things. | 0:31:56 | 0:31:59 | |
We've just seen that David Cameron has agreed to | 0:31:59 | 0:32:02 | |
take in child refugees. | 0:32:02 | 0:32:04 | |
-Let me give another example... -It took him a long time. | 0:32:04 | 0:32:07 | |
Let me give you another... | 0:32:07 | 0:32:08 | |
-It took him a long time. -Let me give you another example. | 0:32:08 | 0:32:10 | |
Let's look at, for example, animal welfare - | 0:32:10 | 0:32:12 | |
it's an issue I really care about. | 0:32:12 | 0:32:15 | |
We would like, in Britain, | 0:32:15 | 0:32:16 | |
-to be able to stop live exports of farm animals. -So do I. | 0:32:16 | 0:32:20 | |
We can't, because of the EU, | 0:32:20 | 0:32:22 | |
so there are certain areas - many areas - | 0:32:22 | 0:32:25 | |
where, actually, if we had control, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:27 | |
we would exceed some of the moral values of other member states. | 0:32:27 | 0:32:31 | |
I'm not... I'm sitting on the fence still, | 0:32:31 | 0:32:33 | |
but what about, not so long ago, one of our Government wanted to | 0:32:33 | 0:32:37 | |
lock people up for 90 days or something without charging them? | 0:32:37 | 0:32:40 | |
-What's that got to do with the EU? -Well, I'm... | 0:32:40 | 0:32:42 | |
I'm just answering the question about... We're not moral leaders. | 0:32:42 | 0:32:45 | |
Well, we can't be moral leaders in everything. | 0:32:45 | 0:32:47 | |
-We can try. -OK, let's go on. You, sir, here. You, sir, here. | 0:32:47 | 0:32:50 | |
-The problem I've got with this referendum... -Say it again. | 0:32:50 | 0:32:53 | |
The problem I've got with this referendum, | 0:32:53 | 0:32:54 | |
if you listen to the Brexit camp and you listen to the Remain camp, | 0:32:54 | 0:32:57 | |
like the question says, it'll about economics. | 0:32:57 | 0:33:01 | |
No matter what they do, they always throw money at you. | 0:33:01 | 0:33:05 | |
It's money this, money that, money this, money that. | 0:33:05 | 0:33:08 | |
Lisa pointed out all these financial bigwigs that have | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
pointed out that we have to stay in, cos this is going to happen, | 0:33:11 | 0:33:14 | |
They weren't... They didn't want to listen to them | 0:33:14 | 0:33:16 | |
when the Government... | 0:33:16 | 0:33:18 | |
when everybody wanted to go into the euro, which... | 0:33:18 | 0:33:21 | |
For them, going into the euro was the best decision that we could do, | 0:33:21 | 0:33:26 | |
so they ignored them, and it turned out that they was wrong. | 0:33:26 | 0:33:30 | |
-Right, OK. -With what they said, they was wrong. | 0:33:30 | 0:33:32 | |
But, actually, when we went... | 0:33:32 | 0:33:34 | |
When we had the debate about whether we were going into the euro | 0:33:34 | 0:33:37 | |
and we decided not to do it, there were voices, credible voices, | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
on both sides of the argument, making different cases. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:43 | |
And now what you see, when you look across the economic world, | 0:33:43 | 0:33:48 | |
is you only really find people making the case to remain, | 0:33:48 | 0:33:51 | |
and I'm not asking you to vote for Europe on that basis. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:54 | |
-I'm just saying, think about it, really... -Right. | 0:33:54 | 0:33:57 | |
..that we're part of this enormous trading bloc, | 0:33:57 | 0:33:59 | |
so we can negotiate better deals with other countries. | 0:33:59 | 0:34:01 | |
If we come out, why would it be the same? | 0:34:01 | 0:34:03 | |
All right, hang on a second. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:04 | |
When you were Chancellor of the Exchequer, | 0:34:04 | 0:34:06 | |
and you were following the Deutschmark, | 0:34:06 | 0:34:08 | |
and there was the thought of us going with, maybe, | 0:34:08 | 0:34:11 | |
the euro and all that, when did you start to think | 0:34:11 | 0:34:14 | |
that perhaps it wasn't such a good idea to be in the EU? | 0:34:14 | 0:34:17 | |
I was the first minister to come out strongly against | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
the single European currency. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:23 | |
I did it when I was Chancellor in 1989, before it had come into being, | 0:34:23 | 0:34:30 | |
because I'd hoped it would be stopped, | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
because it was clear that that was their intention. | 0:34:32 | 0:34:34 | |
I knew Jacques Delors very well - | 0:34:34 | 0:34:35 | |
before he was President of the Commission, | 0:34:35 | 0:34:37 | |
he was my opposite number as French finance minister. | 0:34:37 | 0:34:40 | |
I knew exactly what he was up to, and I made a definitive speech, | 0:34:40 | 0:34:43 | |
the first one that was made, against joining the euro, | 0:34:43 | 0:34:45 | |
but, really, against the single currency at all. | 0:34:45 | 0:34:49 | |
But let me come back to the economics. | 0:34:49 | 0:34:52 | |
I agree that the economics is not the most important thing. | 0:34:52 | 0:34:55 | |
It is democracy and self-government that are far more important | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
-than the economics. -All right. | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
But there's a lot of nonsense being spoken, I won't mention names, | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
-but around this table. The... -LAUGHTER | 0:35:05 | 0:35:09 | |
-I don't see why... -It's badge of honour, Nigel. -First of all... | 0:35:09 | 0:35:12 | |
First of all, we do far more trade with | 0:35:12 | 0:35:16 | |
the rest of the world than we do with the European Union, | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
and the gap is growing. | 0:35:19 | 0:35:21 | |
The excess that we do with the rest of the world is greater. | 0:35:21 | 0:35:25 | |
There is no need for any trade agreements in order to do trade. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:29 | |
The fact of the matter is that the... | 0:35:29 | 0:35:35 | |
Obama spoke as he did because he thought it was in the interests | 0:35:35 | 0:35:38 | |
of the United States that we should remain in the European Union - | 0:35:38 | 0:35:42 | |
not necessarily the interests of Britain. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:44 | |
He may or may not be right that it is in | 0:35:44 | 0:35:47 | |
the interests of the United States, but that is not the issue. | 0:35:47 | 0:35:50 | |
It is what is right for this country, as much as, erm, | 0:35:50 | 0:35:54 | |
a wonderful country that the United States is... | 0:35:54 | 0:35:56 | |
And we had some talk about their presidential candidates earlier, | 0:35:56 | 0:35:59 | |
which may take some of the gloss off, | 0:35:59 | 0:36:01 | |
but, certainly, what is right for the United States | 0:36:01 | 0:36:03 | |
is not necessarily what is right for Britain. | 0:36:03 | 0:36:05 | |
-All right. -And... And the other thing is... | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
-All right, quickly. -The other thing... | 0:36:07 | 0:36:09 | |
The other thing is that trade agreements are... | 0:36:09 | 0:36:14 | |
are of no significance to speak of. | 0:36:14 | 0:36:16 | |
Norway, for example, which Michael mentioned - | 0:36:16 | 0:36:19 | |
this ridiculous, tiny little country, but the tariff is... | 0:36:19 | 0:36:23 | |
The common external tariff... | 0:36:23 | 0:36:25 | |
Norway is a ridiculous, tiny little country? | 0:36:25 | 0:36:27 | |
-LAUGHTER -No, no, it is a lovely country, | 0:36:27 | 0:36:29 | |
-but it is, the comparison that's... -Ridiculous, all right. | 0:36:29 | 0:36:31 | |
-I just wanted to clarify the point. -No, I'm glad you did. | 0:36:31 | 0:36:34 | |
Norway's a great country, but to compare... | 0:36:34 | 0:36:36 | |
To compare it with... | 0:36:36 | 0:36:38 | |
-To compare it with the United Kingdom is ridiculous. -All right. | 0:36:38 | 0:36:41 | |
Now, I want to do one thing because I want to move on. | 0:36:41 | 0:36:43 | |
We've got a lot of other questions. We talk about Europe every week. | 0:36:43 | 0:36:46 | |
I happen to know, because we asked you all before you came, | 0:36:46 | 0:36:48 | |
that you're pretty well divided 50-50 when you made up your minds | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
-on Brexit or Remain... BENJAMIN: -Oh, they're like me. | 0:36:51 | 0:36:53 | |
I want to hear from Remain people | 0:36:53 | 0:36:55 | |
because we have had a lot of Brexiters talking. | 0:36:55 | 0:36:57 | |
Yes, you, sir, there. And then I'll come to the lady there. | 0:36:57 | 0:36:59 | |
Then we'll go to another question. Yes? | 0:36:59 | 0:37:01 | |
You've heard all this, what do you make of it? | 0:37:01 | 0:37:03 | |
I want to take issue with a couple of points that have been raised. | 0:37:03 | 0:37:06 | |
Firstly, Isabel is saying that somehow | 0:37:06 | 0:37:08 | |
if we were in control of certain things, we'd make better choices. | 0:37:08 | 0:37:11 | |
So, we have seen the Government here in the UK | 0:37:11 | 0:37:13 | |
fighting against regulation to protect bees from pesticides, | 0:37:13 | 0:37:17 | |
fighting against regulation on climate change, | 0:37:17 | 0:37:20 | |
fighting against things like cleaning up our air - | 0:37:20 | 0:37:23 | |
they've failed dismally to meet EU targets. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:25 | |
So thinking that we'd be better outside Europe is one thing. | 0:37:25 | 0:37:29 | |
But the other thing about democracy, | 0:37:29 | 0:37:30 | |
I'm hearing Lord Lawson saying that it's all about democracy - | 0:37:30 | 0:37:33 | |
we have a Government here which is overriding local democracy. | 0:37:33 | 0:37:36 | |
They decided in Lancashire to oppose fracking. | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
Lancashire County Council opposed fracking, | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
the Government is going to overrule that. | 0:37:42 | 0:37:44 | |
So for him to talk about democracy is completely two-faced, | 0:37:44 | 0:37:47 | |
when the Government here is overriding local people. | 0:37:47 | 0:37:49 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:37:49 | 0:37:53 | |
And the woman there in the white dress? Yes? | 0:37:53 | 0:37:56 | |
I think that... | 0:37:56 | 0:37:57 | |
Well, I was watching either the Sunday Politics Show | 0:37:57 | 0:37:59 | |
or Andrew Marr show a few weeks ago, | 0:37:59 | 0:38:01 | |
Mr Lawson said we wouldn't have a trade agreement | 0:38:01 | 0:38:04 | |
in a similar way to Norway. | 0:38:04 | 0:38:05 | |
Then we have members of Parliament saying, "Of course we will." | 0:38:05 | 0:38:08 | |
And I think you're right with that question because we just don't know. | 0:38:08 | 0:38:11 | |
There's a lot of uncertainty. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:12 | |
I think that the Leave campaign has a lot of, | 0:38:12 | 0:38:14 | |
"Oh, when we leave, there'll be candyfloss from trees | 0:38:14 | 0:38:17 | |
"and unicorns on the ground, the world will be perfect." | 0:38:17 | 0:38:19 | |
And we need to make sure our Remain campaign | 0:38:19 | 0:38:21 | |
is equally as passionate because we are not getting that at the moment. | 0:38:21 | 0:38:26 | |
Do you ever go shopping? I'm sure you do. | 0:38:26 | 0:38:29 | |
Do you only ever see goods from the European Union in the shops? | 0:38:29 | 0:38:33 | |
Of course not, you see goods from all over the world. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:36 | |
You don't need to be in the European Union to trade with Europe. | 0:38:36 | 0:38:41 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
I'll take one more Remain point. | 0:38:45 | 0:38:48 | |
Yes, the woman in blue there. | 0:38:48 | 0:38:49 | |
And then we must go on to another question. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:51 | |
Just to feed back to the original question, | 0:38:51 | 0:38:54 | |
what is wonderful is, we're part of something, | 0:38:54 | 0:38:57 | |
we're part of something that we can build together to make Europe | 0:38:57 | 0:39:00 | |
a better place to live for everybody in Europe. | 0:39:00 | 0:39:03 | |
And sometimes I think we get a bit hooked up on our lovely lives here. | 0:39:03 | 0:39:07 | |
But if we think across Europe, everybody's in different positions. | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
I personally love the fact that we've got people from all | 0:39:10 | 0:39:13 | |
different parts of Europe coming to live here, coming to work | 0:39:13 | 0:39:16 | |
and coming to contribute to the brilliant society we've got. | 0:39:16 | 0:39:19 | |
OK. Thank you. APPLAUSE | 0:39:19 | 0:39:23 | |
We'll go on. | 0:39:23 | 0:39:24 | |
Paul Burgess, you have a question for us, please? | 0:39:24 | 0:39:27 | |
-Paul Burgess. -Yeah. | 0:39:27 | 0:39:29 | |
Is it right that six and seven-year-olds should have to go | 0:39:29 | 0:39:33 | |
on strike to express their and their parents' feelings regarding SATs? | 0:39:33 | 0:39:37 | |
Children who were kept away from... | 0:39:37 | 0:39:40 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:39:40 | 0:39:44 | |
..kept away from school so they didn't sit their SATs. | 0:39:44 | 0:39:47 | |
Lisa Nandy, what do you think? | 0:39:47 | 0:39:48 | |
Well, I definitely agree with the way you phrased the question | 0:39:48 | 0:39:53 | |
because I went into a primary school in my constituency | 0:39:53 | 0:39:56 | |
this afternoon and I talked to some | 0:39:56 | 0:39:59 | |
11-year-olds who're going through the SATs process and their teacher. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:05 | |
What they told me was that testing in itself is not the problem, | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
actually assessment, proper assessment is a really | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
important part of the education system. | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
And it wasn't just the teachers who welcomed that, | 0:40:15 | 0:40:18 | |
it was the children as well. | 0:40:18 | 0:40:19 | |
But they were finding it incredibly stressful. | 0:40:19 | 0:40:22 | |
One of the reason the teachers were finding it incredibly stressful is | 0:40:22 | 0:40:25 | |
because they said to me, "The goalposts keep changing." | 0:40:25 | 0:40:28 | |
The Government has changed these tests over 80 times since September. | 0:40:28 | 0:40:33 | |
And so teachers were saying, "Look, | 0:40:33 | 0:40:35 | |
"we've just lost confidence with the system." | 0:40:35 | 0:40:37 | |
And there's a real problem here because | 0:40:37 | 0:40:39 | |
if you chop and change so often that | 0:40:39 | 0:40:41 | |
people don't really see the value in the assessment, it's very difficult, | 0:40:41 | 0:40:45 | |
then, for teachers and parents to give confidence to children that | 0:40:45 | 0:40:48 | |
those assessments are right as well, | 0:40:48 | 0:40:50 | |
-and that's where you get the stress. -Wasn't the point though that | 0:40:50 | 0:40:53 | |
children were not meant to know they were sitting an exam? | 0:40:53 | 0:40:55 | |
Isn't that the point of SATs - | 0:40:55 | 0:40:57 | |
they were just meant to do them without realising it was an exam? | 0:40:57 | 0:40:59 | |
Part of the problem with the way the Government has handled this is | 0:40:59 | 0:41:02 | |
they've talked up the need to be tough | 0:41:02 | 0:41:04 | |
and have better standards in schools. | 0:41:04 | 0:41:06 | |
They've brought back the six and seven-year-old tests | 0:41:06 | 0:41:09 | |
without any clear evidence it does raise standards in school. | 0:41:09 | 0:41:12 | |
They actually published some of these tests online by accident | 0:41:12 | 0:41:15 | |
and then had to retract them. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
I think the view coming out of schools now, | 0:41:17 | 0:41:19 | |
and with parents, is that the Government is completely | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
out of ideas about how you better support children | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
and raise standards, so instead they've come out with this | 0:41:25 | 0:41:28 | |
string of policies, including these tests, | 0:41:28 | 0:41:30 | |
including unqualified teachers in our schools, | 0:41:30 | 0:41:33 | |
including forcing all schools to become academies. | 0:41:33 | 0:41:36 | |
It's a box-ticking exercise, | 0:41:36 | 0:41:38 | |
but at the end our children are paying the price for it. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:40 | |
And were the parents right | 0:41:40 | 0:41:41 | |
to take their children away from school for the day, | 0:41:41 | 0:41:44 | |
take them, in effect, on strike? | 0:41:44 | 0:41:45 | |
I think this is difficult, really. I was reflecting on it earlier. | 0:41:45 | 0:41:49 | |
Just give your brief answer of your reflections. | 0:41:49 | 0:41:51 | |
My answer is that if it was me, I wouldn't have done it. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:54 | |
I think children are better off in school. But the blame, for me, | 0:41:54 | 0:41:57 | |
lies with a Government that's putting box-ticking above children. | 0:41:57 | 0:42:00 | |
-Isabel Oakeshott? -Well... -APPLAUSE | 0:42:00 | 0:42:03 | |
I found it incredibly distasteful to see seven-year-olds | 0:42:06 | 0:42:10 | |
being marched on strikes with their parents bearing placards. | 0:42:10 | 0:42:14 | |
I thought that was really exploitive. | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
You know, there's a really sorry thing, | 0:42:21 | 0:42:23 | |
and that is that we are currently languishing below Vietnam | 0:42:23 | 0:42:28 | |
and Poland in the international educational league tables. | 0:42:28 | 0:42:33 | |
I think we should be throwing everything that we've got | 0:42:33 | 0:42:36 | |
at raising our game. | 0:42:36 | 0:42:38 | |
And at the end of the day, yes, it's not nice to sit tests, | 0:42:38 | 0:42:42 | |
but it's not so very traumatic. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:44 | |
And part of the rationale for these tests | 0:42:44 | 0:42:47 | |
is not to identify children who aren't doing well | 0:42:47 | 0:42:50 | |
to give them a hard time about that, | 0:42:50 | 0:42:53 | |
it's so that we can see which children need extra support, | 0:42:53 | 0:42:56 | |
and also so we can identify where teachers are failing. | 0:42:56 | 0:43:01 | |
And that has got to be a very, very decent objective. | 0:43:01 | 0:43:05 | |
-APPLAUSE -But the problem is, Isabel, | 0:43:05 | 0:43:07 | |
is that there is no clear evidence | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
that these six and seven-year-olds tests actually achieve that. | 0:43:09 | 0:43:12 | |
And in fact what some of those children were saying | 0:43:12 | 0:43:14 | |
to me today is that these tests are actually so difficult that they | 0:43:14 | 0:43:18 | |
are under enormous pressure and they're losing confidence. | 0:43:18 | 0:43:22 | |
If the Schools Minister can't even answer one of those questions on the | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
Today programme, then I do think he needs to listen to these concerns. | 0:43:25 | 0:43:29 | |
-Do you know what a subordinating conjunction is? -No. I'm not... | 0:43:29 | 0:43:32 | |
-Do you know what a subordinating conjunction is? -I do, actually. | 0:43:32 | 0:43:35 | |
I've never heard the expression until Nick Gibb. | 0:43:35 | 0:43:38 | |
I'm lucky enough to have had a great education! | 0:43:38 | 0:43:41 | |
All right. I'm going to the woman there. Yes? | 0:43:41 | 0:43:44 | |
I agree with points from both Isabel and Lisa, actually. | 0:43:44 | 0:43:47 | |
Because I do agree that testing is important | 0:43:47 | 0:43:49 | |
in some ways because I know that | 0:43:49 | 0:43:52 | |
often testing is crucial in order to find out who exactly is struggling | 0:43:52 | 0:43:57 | |
and it's important to establish from an early age who needs extra help. | 0:43:57 | 0:44:01 | |
So why the problem? | 0:44:01 | 0:44:02 | |
Because I also understand, like Lisa was saying, | 0:44:02 | 0:44:05 | |
about how we are constantly changing. | 0:44:05 | 0:44:08 | |
As a student myself, I understand how much of a stress it has been | 0:44:08 | 0:44:11 | |
on students and teachers because the Government | 0:44:11 | 0:44:13 | |
is constantly changing the way we do things, | 0:44:13 | 0:44:15 | |
and that is putting unnecessary pressure on students and teachers. | 0:44:15 | 0:44:18 | |
OK, Benjamin Zephaniah? | 0:44:18 | 0:44:20 | |
I agree with a lot of what Lisa said. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:23 | |
I spend a lot of time in schools, in this country and all over the world. | 0:44:23 | 0:44:27 | |
In this country, every time I seem to go in a school, teachers are | 0:44:27 | 0:44:31 | |
changing from one system to another, | 0:44:31 | 0:44:33 | |
constantly trying to get in with one system. | 0:44:33 | 0:44:36 | |
As soon as they get in that system, | 0:44:36 | 0:44:38 | |
there's another system comes along, some changes come along. | 0:44:38 | 0:44:42 | |
I think, at that early age, children should be enjoying school. | 0:44:42 | 0:44:46 | |
Tutors can assess them from afar and assess them | 0:44:46 | 0:44:49 | |
in much more interesting ways. | 0:44:49 | 0:44:51 | |
But one of the things I'd like to warn our Education Ministers about | 0:44:51 | 0:44:55 | |
is that they seem to look to places | 0:44:55 | 0:44:59 | |
like Japan and Singapore, and now China... | 0:44:59 | 0:45:04 | |
-North Korea, maybe? -Well, not North Korea. I've been there... | 0:45:04 | 0:45:08 | |
Oh, you heard about North Korea, | 0:45:08 | 0:45:09 | |
where they identify geniuses at five and then bring them...? | 0:45:09 | 0:45:13 | |
-Oh, no, no. -Not for you? | 0:45:13 | 0:45:15 | |
Quite seriously, those places have a high level of suicide. | 0:45:15 | 0:45:21 | |
They have a high level of... | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
They have a disease in Japan called hikikomori. It's unique to Japan. | 0:45:24 | 0:45:28 | |
It's where a kid just locks himself away because | 0:45:28 | 0:45:31 | |
he cannot take the world and the educational pressures | 0:45:31 | 0:45:33 | |
and everything else. It's because of this pressure to pass exams | 0:45:33 | 0:45:39 | |
from a young age and to do well, especially when you have | 0:45:39 | 0:45:42 | |
a small family, if you've got one child or two, | 0:45:42 | 0:45:45 | |
and they are not, you know, keeping up with everybody else. | 0:45:45 | 0:45:48 | |
The kids just can't take the pressure. | 0:45:48 | 0:45:52 | |
So, I think education is OK for making money, here we go again, | 0:45:52 | 0:45:57 | |
making money, but you've got to have good, rounded adults. | 0:45:57 | 0:46:00 | |
Nigel Lawson? APPLAUSE | 0:46:00 | 0:46:04 | |
We did have a problem in this country that our standard | 0:46:07 | 0:46:12 | |
of education was not good enough and it had to be raised. | 0:46:12 | 0:46:18 | |
Michael Gove, I think, did a very good job, when he was | 0:46:18 | 0:46:20 | |
-Secretary of State for Education... -BOOING | 0:46:20 | 0:46:23 | |
..in improving standards in education. | 0:46:23 | 0:46:26 | |
And part of that... It's not the whole story. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:28 | |
Part of that is a necessity to test children. | 0:46:28 | 0:46:31 | |
I was very encouraged by this recent demo or strike | 0:46:31 | 0:46:35 | |
to see how few parents were stupid enough to bring | 0:46:35 | 0:46:40 | |
their children out on strike. The great majority recognised | 0:46:40 | 0:46:45 | |
the testing is necessary, and they were perfectly content | 0:46:45 | 0:46:48 | |
to go along with it. That is an important part of raising | 0:46:48 | 0:46:52 | |
educational standards, and if we want this country | 0:46:52 | 0:46:56 | |
to be even better than it is today, | 0:46:56 | 0:46:58 | |
that is a very important part of it. | 0:46:58 | 0:47:01 | |
OK. The woman there, in white? | 0:47:01 | 0:47:03 | |
Our children are the most precious commodity that we actually have, | 0:47:03 | 0:47:07 | |
and until education stops being a political football, | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 | |
they are never going to stand a chance. | 0:47:11 | 0:47:13 | |
-And the reason why... -APPLAUSE | 0:47:13 | 0:47:17 | |
And the reason why, Mr Lawson, that there wasn't | 0:47:17 | 0:47:22 | |
such a greater parental support, is because, at the moment, | 0:47:22 | 0:47:27 | |
the majority of parents don't actually seriously understand | 0:47:27 | 0:47:31 | |
the mess the current D of E has made of assessment, | 0:47:31 | 0:47:35 | |
and, actually, what forced academisation is doing... | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
Where are the British values on forced academisation? | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
If you're forced to do something, what price? | 0:47:41 | 0:47:44 | |
-Freedom, liberty, rule of law. -All right. The woman at the back there? | 0:47:44 | 0:47:50 | |
-In the very back row, yes. -I think there's a couple of issues. | 0:47:50 | 0:47:53 | |
Firstly, it seems like a lot of our Education Ministers | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
think they know more about teaching than teachers do, | 0:47:56 | 0:47:59 | |
which is why they're changing things. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:03 | |
Secondly, just to come back to what Isabel was saying, | 0:48:03 | 0:48:05 | |
I think, partly, perhaps other countries are doing better | 0:48:05 | 0:48:08 | |
than Britain are in education systems because our good teachers | 0:48:08 | 0:48:11 | |
are leaving to go elsewhere to get a better standard of living. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:14 | |
-Michael O'Leary? -I'm slightly nervous at getting involved | 0:48:14 | 0:48:17 | |
in this part of the debate. But, look, as somebody Irish, | 0:48:17 | 0:48:21 | |
I'm a father of four children under the age of ten. | 0:48:21 | 0:48:23 | |
Like most parents, I care that my children are tested, | 0:48:23 | 0:48:27 | |
not tested, are challenged in school. I want them to do well. | 0:48:27 | 0:48:30 | |
I also want them to be pushed. I think we run a grave danger, | 0:48:30 | 0:48:34 | |
certainly in our generation, of being a little bit too soft | 0:48:34 | 0:48:37 | |
on our children. We've taken away competitive sports, | 0:48:37 | 0:48:40 | |
we don't want to test them, we love continuous assessment. | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
In life, in work, in career, everybody faces those challenges. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:48 | |
I don't... I think the parents were wrong to take children | 0:48:48 | 0:48:51 | |
of the age of six and seven out of school for a day of protest, | 0:48:51 | 0:48:55 | |
or whatever else it was. That wasn't the way to resolve their issues. | 0:48:55 | 0:48:58 | |
If they have an issue with the syllabus or they have an issue | 0:48:58 | 0:49:00 | |
with the testing regime, taking young children out of school | 0:49:00 | 0:49:03 | |
and having them marching up and down with placards was the wrong way | 0:49:03 | 0:49:06 | |
-to advance their case. -APPLAUSE | 0:49:06 | 0:49:09 | |
Can I... I'd like to go back to Paul Burgess, | 0:49:09 | 0:49:13 | |
who asked the question. What do you think of what you've heard? | 0:49:13 | 0:49:17 | |
I disagree in a lot of the things because there is no extra support | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
for the schools, they are just virtually to the bone, | 0:49:21 | 0:49:25 | |
the way the schools are run. My own granddaughter, | 0:49:25 | 0:49:28 | |
it was her third place that she managed to get in, | 0:49:28 | 0:49:31 | |
starting school at four. The other two places were full. | 0:49:31 | 0:49:34 | |
There's not enough schools, not enough teachers. | 0:49:34 | 0:49:36 | |
But the issue about SATs, which was the question you asked, | 0:49:36 | 0:49:39 | |
and going on strike about it, are you in favour of what was done? | 0:49:39 | 0:49:42 | |
In some ways. It was the only way of trying to get the message across, | 0:49:42 | 0:49:46 | |
-expressing their feelings. -All right. | 0:49:46 | 0:49:48 | |
-We're at a point of desperation. -The man next to you, | 0:49:48 | 0:49:50 | |
you had your hand up. Do you want a quick point? | 0:49:50 | 0:49:52 | |
I think the fact that parents withheld their children from school | 0:49:52 | 0:49:56 | |
represents the degree of frustration that they feel about it. | 0:49:56 | 0:49:58 | |
I think the fact that the doctors have to go on strike | 0:49:58 | 0:50:01 | |
to be heard, to be listened to, again reflects that. | 0:50:01 | 0:50:04 | |
I think the fact that their discontent, in terms of academies | 0:50:04 | 0:50:08 | |
for high schools, that represents that. I think that is true. | 0:50:08 | 0:50:12 | |
Democracy is not really what the ex-Chancellor's referring to. | 0:50:12 | 0:50:16 | |
-I think we need to listen to the people. -All right. | 0:50:16 | 0:50:18 | |
Very briefly... | 0:50:18 | 0:50:20 | |
It's a quick observation. I said earlier that I spend a lot of time | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
going around the world to schools and I'm fascinated by the amount | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
of British teachers I meet in foreign schools, | 0:50:27 | 0:50:30 | |
who sometimes they're getting less pay than they get here, | 0:50:30 | 0:50:33 | |
but they get better respect. | 0:50:33 | 0:50:36 | |
The government, the ministers of education, are not at war with them. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:39 | |
-And they'll accept less salary! -APPLAUSE | 0:50:39 | 0:50:43 | |
All right. We've got five minutes or so left. | 0:50:43 | 0:50:46 | |
Tom Markham, let's have your question, please. | 0:50:46 | 0:50:48 | |
If Labour perform badly at today's local elections, | 0:50:48 | 0:50:51 | |
should Jeremy Corbyn's position as leader come under threat? | 0:50:51 | 0:50:54 | |
If Labour perform badly at local elections, | 0:50:54 | 0:50:57 | |
which we get the results of early tomorrow morning, | 0:50:57 | 0:50:59 | |
should Jeremy Corbyn's position as leader come under threat? | 0:50:59 | 0:51:02 | |
Isabel Oakeshott is a commentator on these things. What do you think? | 0:51:02 | 0:51:05 | |
Well, I certainly would like to see it come under threat, | 0:51:05 | 0:51:08 | |
and so would a very great number of Labour MPs. | 0:51:08 | 0:51:11 | |
The problem that they've got is that Jeremy Corbyn | 0:51:11 | 0:51:14 | |
remains immensely popular with the wider Labour membership. | 0:51:14 | 0:51:17 | |
So you've got this bizarre situation where Labour MPs | 0:51:17 | 0:51:21 | |
are kind of held prisoner by the wider party. | 0:51:21 | 0:51:24 | |
I think that if it's a poor result tonight, | 0:51:24 | 0:51:29 | |
Jeremy Corbyn will carry on being leader for quite a while. | 0:51:29 | 0:51:32 | |
Because all the evidence is that if MPs who don't favour his leadership | 0:51:32 | 0:51:37 | |
tried to launch some kind of coup, it would be unsuccessful. | 0:51:37 | 0:51:42 | |
Tom Markham, your point is that he should or he shouldn't | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
come under threat if things go badly? | 0:51:44 | 0:51:47 | |
I think he should. It's the first test for him as leader. | 0:51:47 | 0:51:51 | |
The difficulty is, obviously, he's got huge support | 0:51:51 | 0:51:54 | |
in the membership, unfortunately. I think members have been incredibly | 0:51:54 | 0:51:58 | |
-short-sighted. -Are you a Labour supporter? -I'm a Labour member, | 0:51:58 | 0:52:01 | |
but I don't support Jeremy Corbyn. | 0:52:01 | 0:52:03 | |
I think people need to remember how good New Labour were. | 0:52:03 | 0:52:06 | |
-Minimum wage, equal rights for gay people. -All right. | 0:52:06 | 0:52:09 | |
Lisa Nandy? | 0:52:09 | 0:52:10 | |
Well, I certainly agree with the... | 0:52:10 | 0:52:12 | |
Are you a staunch supporter or a moderate supporter? | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
I'm not quite sure where you stand on the issue. | 0:52:16 | 0:52:19 | |
I'm a supporter of Labour and I'm a supporter of Jeremy Corbyn, | 0:52:19 | 0:52:22 | |
who was elected with a resounding mandate from our members. | 0:52:22 | 0:52:25 | |
Let me say this, as well, that the negativity about Jeremy | 0:52:25 | 0:52:30 | |
completely ignores the fact that in the last six months, we've won | 0:52:30 | 0:52:33 | |
really important victories over the Tories, forcing them to back down | 0:52:33 | 0:52:36 | |
on things like cutting tax credits for working people, | 0:52:36 | 0:52:39 | |
forcing the Business Secretary to come back from Australia | 0:52:39 | 0:52:42 | |
and intervene in the steel crisis, | 0:52:42 | 0:52:45 | |
and brokering a cross-party deal with support of Conservative MPs, | 0:52:45 | 0:52:49 | |
as well, to try and avert the junior doctors' strikes. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:52 | |
So it's just not true to say that Labour or Jeremy | 0:52:52 | 0:52:56 | |
aren't doing anything that's worth doing. | 0:52:56 | 0:52:58 | |
In fact, in many ways, we're acting as a line of defence | 0:52:58 | 0:53:01 | |
against some of the worst things that this Government is doing. | 0:53:01 | 0:53:04 | |
So if things go badly, the question was, | 0:53:04 | 0:53:06 | |
should his position come under threat? | 0:53:06 | 0:53:09 | |
That's a loyal Labour member, who thinks it should. | 0:53:09 | 0:53:12 | |
Well, I'm a loyal Labour member, as well, and what I would say is this. | 0:53:12 | 0:53:16 | |
Firstly, I don't accept the sort of doom, gloom and despair narrative. | 0:53:16 | 0:53:21 | |
We're fighting for every single vote in this election. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
We know it's a tough call, but people said that the Oldham | 0:53:24 | 0:53:27 | |
by-election was a test of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. | 0:53:27 | 0:53:30 | |
They said if he did badly, he had to go. | 0:53:30 | 0:53:32 | |
They said that we would probably lose. | 0:53:32 | 0:53:34 | |
In fact, we did incredibly well and we increased our result | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
share there. So I think we need to go out, | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
we need to fight for every vote, we need to be humble about the fact | 0:53:40 | 0:53:43 | |
that, at the last general election, people felt they couldn't support us | 0:53:43 | 0:53:47 | |
and we had a really disappointing result. | 0:53:47 | 0:53:49 | |
We know it will be a tough road back, and this is the start of it. | 0:53:49 | 0:53:52 | |
-We've got to convince people. -APPLAUSE | 0:53:52 | 0:53:55 | |
You, there? | 0:53:55 | 0:53:57 | |
I cannot believe that you are defending the Tony Blair Government | 0:53:57 | 0:54:01 | |
that took us to war in Iraq. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:03 | |
-How can you ignore that? -APPLAUSE DROWNS OUT SPEECH | 0:54:03 | 0:54:07 | |
..Jeremy Corbyn has the biggest mandate of any leader | 0:54:07 | 0:54:11 | |
to ever have been elected. This is a democratic process. | 0:54:11 | 0:54:14 | |
It's not up to Labour MPs to decide who is Leader of the Labour Party. | 0:54:14 | 0:54:18 | |
It's up to members of the Labour Party. | 0:54:18 | 0:54:21 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:54:21 | 0:54:23 | |
In answer to the question, it's quite obvious, | 0:54:26 | 0:54:28 | |
I don't think his leadership will come under threat | 0:54:28 | 0:54:30 | |
if he does badly at the local elections, because it looks like | 0:54:30 | 0:54:33 | |
he'll win the London mayoralty, and that'll be the vindication. | 0:54:33 | 0:54:36 | |
But, to answer your point, you've elected Labour, | 0:54:36 | 0:54:39 | |
but democratically, Jeremy Corbyn, he's unelectable | 0:54:39 | 0:54:42 | |
to most of the British electorate. | 0:54:42 | 0:54:43 | |
You've gone back to the days of Michael Foot. | 0:54:43 | 0:54:45 | |
Labour will not win an election with Jeremy Corbyn as leader, | 0:54:45 | 0:54:48 | |
but he will probably usher in somebody electable after him, | 0:54:48 | 0:54:51 | |
as they did with Tony Blair. | 0:54:51 | 0:54:52 | |
And whatever your views of Tony Blair in Iraq, | 0:54:52 | 0:54:54 | |
he won Labour three elections in a row. | 0:54:54 | 0:54:57 | |
No other leader has. | 0:54:57 | 0:54:59 | |
You let Lisa off the hook, in terms of the question. | 0:54:59 | 0:55:01 | |
Why doesn't the Daily Mail put me back on it? | 0:55:01 | 0:55:03 | |
Well, the question was, whether you think he should face a challenge | 0:55:03 | 0:55:07 | |
-if he doesn't do well. -She said no. | 0:55:07 | 0:55:08 | |
I just want to ask, are you happy with a Labour Leader | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
who calls Hamas and Hezbollah his friends? | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
-MIXED APPLAUSE AND BOOING -Isabel, please. Please! | 0:55:13 | 0:55:16 | |
That is such a disgraceful thing to say. | 0:55:16 | 0:55:19 | |
That's what he called them. | 0:55:19 | 0:55:21 | |
As a political commentator, you would have been watching | 0:55:21 | 0:55:23 | |
Prime Minister's Questions when said very clearly that, | 0:55:23 | 0:55:26 | |
"Anybody who expresses anti-Semitism is no friend of mine." | 0:55:26 | 0:55:29 | |
-Please, these are important issues. -Those were his exact words. | 0:55:29 | 0:55:32 | |
These are people's lives. | 0:55:32 | 0:55:33 | |
Stop playing politics with people's lives. | 0:55:33 | 0:55:36 | |
Benjamin Zephaniah? | 0:55:36 | 0:55:37 | |
I can't remember what the question is. | 0:55:39 | 0:55:41 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:55:41 | 0:55:42 | |
I know we're talking about Jeremy Corbyn. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:45 | |
It's not just anything about Jeremy Corbyn. | 0:55:45 | 0:55:47 | |
It's should his leadership come under threat if they do badly | 0:55:47 | 0:55:49 | |
-in the elections? -I think we're in a hostile climate for somebody | 0:55:49 | 0:55:53 | |
like Jeremy right now. The pressures against him, | 0:55:53 | 0:55:55 | |
you've got people in the party plotting against him. | 0:55:55 | 0:55:58 | |
I have known him for years, and I know that he was | 0:55:58 | 0:56:01 | |
a brilliant campaigner, that he cares about things passionately. | 0:56:01 | 0:56:05 | |
He's the kind of person that actually shouldn't be in politics | 0:56:05 | 0:56:08 | |
cos politics is so dirty, you know? He really cares! | 0:56:08 | 0:56:13 | |
Quite seriously... | 0:56:13 | 0:56:17 | |
Last week, apparently, he was supposed to be an anti-Semite. | 0:56:17 | 0:56:21 | |
He's the only mainstream politician that I know | 0:56:21 | 0:56:24 | |
that has been arrested for anti-racism. | 0:56:24 | 0:56:27 | |
Yeah. But he shouldn't be in politics? | 0:56:27 | 0:56:29 | |
-But what I mean is... -I know what you mean. -..he doesn't crave power. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:33 | |
He's not in it just for himself. | 0:56:33 | 0:56:35 | |
It's not just his own ego that he's trying to fulfil. | 0:56:35 | 0:56:37 | |
He really does care. Whatever you say about him, he really does care. | 0:56:37 | 0:56:41 | |
Nigel Lawson? | 0:56:41 | 0:56:43 | |
I have no wish to intrude in private grief. | 0:56:43 | 0:56:46 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:56:46 | 0:56:48 | |
You've got enough of your own in the Conservative Party. | 0:56:48 | 0:56:50 | |
The Labour Party is in a terrible mess, which Lisa knows, | 0:56:50 | 0:56:53 | |
although she won't admit it in public. | 0:56:53 | 0:56:55 | |
The Labour Members of Parliament are in despair, | 0:56:55 | 0:56:59 | |
the great majority, and I hope they will sort it out | 0:56:59 | 0:57:03 | |
because we do need, for a functioning democracy, | 0:57:03 | 0:57:07 | |
we need a strong opposition as well as a strong government. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:10 | |
But, at the moment, it is a mess. It is for them to sort it out. | 0:57:10 | 0:57:17 | |
OK, I'll take one more point before we stop. | 0:57:17 | 0:57:19 | |
You in the white shirt there, yes? | 0:57:19 | 0:57:22 | |
Yeah, I would agree with what Ben says. | 0:57:22 | 0:57:24 | |
I think that Jeremy Corbyn is a principled man. | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
I think he is in it for himself. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
What I am concerned about is the fact that under his leadership, | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
there has been all this vicious anti-Semitic invective | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
that has popped out of the woodwork. | 0:57:36 | 0:57:38 | |
We've had Naz Shah, we've had Ken Livingstone, most recently. | 0:57:38 | 0:57:42 | |
This wasn't happening under Tony Blair, | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
-so I have to question why is this the case. -OK. | 0:57:44 | 0:57:46 | |
Just one week before that, there was a lot of Islamophobia at... | 0:57:49 | 0:57:53 | |
I can't remember his name, the London candidate. | 0:57:53 | 0:57:56 | |
-The media didn't go for that. -Zac Goldsmith. | 0:57:56 | 0:57:59 | |
-The media didn't go for that. -David Cameron. -All right. | 0:57:59 | 0:58:01 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:01 | 0:58:04 | |
Well, we have to stop waiting | 0:58:04 | 0:58:08 | |
for that result, and the result of the result, because our time's up. | 0:58:08 | 0:58:12 | |
We're going to be in Aberdeen next week. | 0:58:12 | 0:58:14 | |
We're in Walsall the week after that, | 0:58:14 | 0:58:16 | |
so if you'd like to come to Question Time, | 0:58:16 | 0:58:18 | |
apply to the website, the address on the screen there, | 0:58:18 | 0:58:21 | |
or call: | 0:58:21 | 0:58:24 | |
As ever, if you're listening on Radio 5 live, in the bath, | 0:58:24 | 0:58:28 | |
the debate continues, as you know, on Question Time... | 0:58:28 | 0:58:30 | |
That's what people say they do, watch the first half on television, | 0:58:30 | 0:58:33 | |
watch the second half in the bath. Well, listen to it. | 0:58:33 | 0:58:36 | |
Anyway, that's by the way. | 0:58:36 | 0:58:38 | |
You can continue the debate on Question Time Extra Time. | 0:58:38 | 0:58:41 | |
My thanks to this panel and to our audience here. | 0:58:41 | 0:58:45 | |
From Manchester, until next Thursday, good night. | 0:58:45 | 0:58:47 |