Browse content similar to 28/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight, we are here in Hull City Hall. Welcome to Question Time. | :00:00. | :00:20. | |
Good evening and a big welcome, whether you are watching on | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
television, listening on the radio, in the audience, and to our panel. | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
The Conservative Communities Secretary, Greg Clarke. Labour's | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
Shadow Home Secretary, Andy Burnham. Former leader of the Scottish | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
National Party, Alex Salmond. Writer and former director of the Centre | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
for Policy Studies, Jill Kirby. The founder of one of the country's | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
biggest hedge fund is, and the founder of a chain of academy | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
schools, Paul Marshall. Thank you. Just before we go, | :00:49. | :01:05. | |
remember, Facebook, Twitter, if you want to comment on what is said. You | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
can text and pushed the red button to see what is said by others. Our | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
first question from Philip Green, please. In light of remarks made by | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
Ken Livingstone, is there an issue surrounding anti-Semitism within the | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
Labour Party? There was a shout of yes. Let's hear what the panel says. | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
The remarks were that Hitler was supporting Zionism before he went | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
mad, he said this morning, and this afternoon he was suspended from the | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
Labour Party. Alex Salmond. I think there is an issue about Ken | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
Livingstone. I am in the position that I don't think that Naz Shah, | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
who was the Labour MP whose suspension started all this, I don't | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
actually think she should have been suspended. If you remember, she made | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
an offensive tweaked two or three years ago, which was shameful and | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
the wrong thing to do, and certainly anti-Semitic. But she made an | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
apology yesterday in the House of Commons, a full sun, graceful | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
apology. She has a young MP. Unless there is something I don't know | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
about, some track record of this behaviour, which there does not seem | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
to be, I don't understand why she was suspended. However, I certainly | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
understand why Ken Livingstone was suspended. I should declare that I | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
am a board member of the Holocaust Memorial Day foundation, which is | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
working to get a suitable memorial to commemorate the Holocaust, so | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
that future generations can understand why it was the most | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
devastating event of the 20th century. Ken Livingstone has been in | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
politics a long time, and he should know the great deal better than to | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
use the Holocaust, or Hitler, as a debating point, or no more than | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
people should use it as a joke. It is right above and beyond that. | :03:01. | :03:09. | |
Tomorrow is the anniversary of the liberation of Dakar concentration | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
camp. For Ken Livingstone, with all his experience, to make that point | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
was shameful and I think he is rightfully suspended. However, we | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
should be more generous to Naz Shah, the young MP who apologised. I think | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
Ken Livingstone was rightfully suspended, Jeremy Corbyn did the | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
right thing. If he needs to take further action against others in the | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
Labour Party, I hope he has the guts to do so. | :03:34. | :03:34. | |
APPLAUSE Andy Burnham, is there an issue | :03:35. | :03:43. | |
about anti-Semitism in the Labour Party? If I thought for one second | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
that I was a member of an anti-Semitic party, I would cut up | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
my membership card right here, right now and send it back to them. That | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
is what I would do. But I don't believe that is the case. Let me say | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
what I think is the case. These allegations, when they surface, are | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
not being dealt with properly and quickly enough. They need to be | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
dealt with much more speedily in future. The second thing is that it | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
is clear that some people in the party have made anti-Semitic | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
comments. Like Alex, I find Ken Livingstone's comments ill-advised, | :04:19. | :04:19. | |
deeply offensive, deeply distasteful. The question, and this | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
is true for Naz Shah as well, were those comments made carelessly, | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
inadvertently, or was their real intent behind the comments? That is | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
why they have to be investigated and people have to have the chance to | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
put their reasons. You have to allow that. That is why it is suspension | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
is right now. But if anti-Semitism is found, then expulsion is what | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
should follow. No ifs or buts. APPLAUSE | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
Jill Kirby, of course Jeremy Corbyn says there is no crisis in the party | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
and people who claim there is are nervous of the strength of the | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
Labour Party and local level. Do you see it like that? It seems to me | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
that this is a crisis brought upon Jeremy Corbyn in large part by his | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
attitude towards the party, towards prejudices that our existing within | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
the party. I am quite sure Andy does not hold them, but they are there | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
within a party that can select and choose Naz Shah as a suitable | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
candidate. Did no one look into her record? This wasn't just one | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
retweet, as far as I am a stand it. There were other comments that she | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
had been passing around. We all know the danger of social media, you see | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
something stupid that catches your eye and you pass it on. But she had | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
a track record. It was not one random thing. Andy Burnham says we | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
have to ask whether there was intent. Someone who wants to be in | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
public life, who visualises themselves having a responsible | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
role, she chose to participate in a dialogue which involved likening | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
sending the Jews to America in transportation. Would anybody in | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
this room consider that a good thing to pass on, even in a moment of | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
frivolity? You just don't do it, do you? The question was whether there | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
is an issue around this within the Labour Party, or whether it is just | :06:24. | :06:31. | |
one or two cases. I think there is. Yesterday, it was not until David | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
Cameron pointed out that it was time for the whip to be withdrawn that | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
the whip was finally withdrawn. This was out in the open and Jeremy | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
Corbyn did not decide to do anything until it came up in Prime Minister's | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
Questions. This is no kind of party management, is it? Ken Livingstone | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
was brought back into the fold by Jeremy Corbyn as his special | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
adviser. He already has a terrible track record of anti-Semitic | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
remarks, as well as plain offensive remarks. I agree about Ken | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
Livingstone but I don't think it is fair to say that about Naz Shah. I | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
have no knowledge that she has done what you say she has done. She is | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
somebody who made a mistake several years ago, she admitted it, she | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
apologised, and I think we should give her a bit of slack. And | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
certainly not attack her when she is not here to defend herself. Anyone | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
who talks about a swarm of migrants is the last person to complain about | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
racism! APPLAUSE | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
Did you just say that careless racism was in some way excusable? I | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
am sorry. racism was in some way excusable? I | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
careless or otherwise. It is simply not on. I didn't say that, if that | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
is what you not on. I didn't say that, if that | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
what I said at all. People can inadvertently say | :07:55. | :07:56. | |
can be read a certain way. It is often the case when people are | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
commenting on the Israel- Palestine situation. I dislike the language | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
used against Israel at times. Sometimes it can go over that line | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
and appear anti-Semitic. It does not mean they are anti-Semitic, just | :08:13. | :08:14. | |
that their comments appeared anti-Semitic. Let me make the point. | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
You have to investigate it, and if you find they meant it, then they | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
have to go. That is the bottom line. Let's hear from one or two members | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
of the audience. At the moment, we are asking whether there is | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
anti-Semitism in the Labour Party. What issues is the party actively | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
tackling to not allow members who are going to voice that, especially | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
members in public office? So what is your assertion, that Labour is too | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
easy on who it allows in? What measures will Labour take to | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
discourage people from joining the party and representing the party | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
discourage people from joining the Parliament? You, sir, over there. I | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
wonder how forgiving Andy and Alex would be if it was a member of Ukip | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
who had said these things. APPLAUSE | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
I do think this is a serious moment. What we know about anti-Semitism | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
over the years is that it is a virus. It is never suppressed, | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
eradicated completely. It emerges from time to time in different | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
countries and at different moments in different guises. As soon as it | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
appears, it has to be crushed very decisively, because it will happen | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
again and again. APPLAUSE | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
I think this is an important moment for Labour. I am sad that the Labour | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
Party, whose traditions have always been to combat racism, should be | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
going through this. I think it is right that Jeremy Corbyn should be | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
required to act absolutely decisively. If you don't, and you | :09:59. | :10:00. | |
see it in other decisively. If you don't, and you | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
world, if you let it fester it will grow and be even worse in the | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
future. Paul Marshall. This is an issue which is important to me | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
personally because last year I discovered that my wife's family | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
lost quite a few members in the Holocaust. So it is not a trivial | :10:19. | :10:27. | |
matter for me. And I think that the views that were expressed by Ken | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
Livingstone are part of a wider worldview. This is what I find | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
worrying. It is shared by Ken Livingstone, John McDonnell and | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
Jeremy Corbyn, and that view is rooted in anti-American is and | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
support for victims, as they see them, of all kinds, whether it be | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
Hamas, Hezbollah, the IRA. Part of that worldview is also opposition to | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
Israel. They are all linked together. It finds expression in | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
what they call anti-Zionism. If you look on the web, you get the use of | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
a word which is increasingly used as a form of anti-Semitism, a different | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
way of saying Jewish. It is quite the real and, as Greg has said, and | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
it is very much within the London clique of Labour leadership. It is | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
dangerous for the Labour Party and for the country and it has to be | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
rooted out. To link to a subject which will no doubt come Ken | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
Livingstone said last week that if we voted for Brexit he would think | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
about emigrating. That might be a solution to everything. | :11:39. | :11:39. | |
APPLAUSE I am not defending what these | :11:40. | :11:48. | |
politicians have said, but three times over the past year I have seen | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
in a political context anti-Semitism used as a political tool. In the NUS | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
presidency, in the young NEC, and now. Anti-Semitism is not the same | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
as disagreeing with what Israel do. It is not the same thing. | :12:05. | :12:12. | |
I want to move on, but I want Andy Burnham to answer the question from | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
over there, which was, is Labour doing enough to stop people joining? | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
And you know the attacks on Labour from the board of the pity of | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
British Jews on Jeremy Corbyn. Various people have had to resign | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
for other anti-Jewish remarks. What is being done to stop this? The | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
gentleman said we have been too forgiving. I am not, actually. I | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
think it was right to suspend Naz Shah, unlike Alex. Find it, and | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
rooted out, no question about it. What is the party doing? We are the | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
party that for decades has promoted equality, has fought discrimination. | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
Jeremy Corbyn has done that all his political life, if you look at his | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
record. So the party has to get better. I don't think it has been | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
good enough. Why has he been so slow? I don't know, it should be | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
quicker. I would like to see quicker and more decisive action taken. He | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
has taken action but it could be quicker. I just want to be | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
absolutely clear about this. I would resign tomorrow if I thought I was | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
in a party that was promoting anti-Semitism. I thought the point | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
was made very well, there is a world of difference between criticising | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
the actions of the Israeli government and questioning whether | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
Israel should exist. It is when people got over that line that they | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
veer into the realm of anti-Semitism, and at that point you | :13:38. | :13:39. | |
have to take a very different approach. But you have to be careful | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
before you label somebody anti-Semitic racist. -- anti-Semitic | :13:44. | :13:53. | |
or racist. I want to go onto the next question from James Blake | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
please. Who else should be held to account over Hillsborough and the | :14:00. | :14:07. | |
ensuing cover-up? Greg Clarke. Well, I think all of us were appalled at | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
what we saw in terms of the stories that are coming out of that inquest, | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
and the incalculable injustice, the decades and decades for which people | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
have not known the truth about what happened to their nearest and | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
dearest. But when it comes to accountability, and the first thing | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
I want to say is to praise Andy Burnham. | :14:33. | :14:32. | |
APPLAUSE Andy had a difficult time some years | :14:33. | :14:49. | |
ago and used that experience, when he was meeting the relatives, to | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
have an absolute determination to get justice. For those of you that | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
saw the scenes in the House of Commons couple of days ago, it was | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
incredibly impressive, and Alex spoke as well. The unity of purpose, | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
in making sure that the lessons can never be forgotten and justice is | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
done. The question is, who should be held to account? I think we now have | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
the truth through these verdicts. What we now need to see is justice. | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
And that requires the criminal investigations that are now going on | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
to continue. Obviously, it is a matter for the prosecutors. But I | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
think everyone would accept that there needs to be consequences, and | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
that a criminal case is proved from what has been a very clear verdict. | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
I think if you are holding people to account, the Sun newspaper, to not | :15:46. | :15:53. | |
even print it on their front-page, I honestly ask how Rupert Murdoch can | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
sleep at night. It's utterly, utterly inhuman. You, Sir, in the | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
second or third row there? Kelvin McCain still to say he's a victim of | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
the police is something else. I was at Hillsborough, survived the | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
crush and climbed over the fences on to the pitch. I feel a victim of | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
South Yorkshire Police. Who other than South Yorkshire Police? They | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
have not yet been held accountable. They have had an inquest where a | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
decision's been made but there hasn't been accountability through | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
the criminal courts and it's only when criminal accountability arises | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
and senior officers who're in charge on the day and successive senior | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
officers who've been involved with South Yorkshire Police since 1989 up | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
until today's date, until they are held accountable in the criminal | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
courts, there is no accountability and that has to happen for justice | :16:49. | :16:50. | |
to happen. APPLAUSE. | :16:51. | :16:59. | |
As everyone knows, Andy Burnham, you were very close to this, in pursuing | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
the demand for a proper inquiry. What is your answer to the question | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
of who should be held to account? Well, nobody has yet, so there's a | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
lot of people now who need to be held to account and accountability, | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
in my view means, prosecutions. That's what needs to follow. Because | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
think about it, how on earth did this country get to a situation | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
where people, ordinary people who did nothing more than wave their | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
loved ones off to a match, how did we have a situation yes they ended | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
up in a courtroom 27 years later begging for justice and pleading for | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
the reputations of their sons, daughters, brothers and sisters? How | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
on earth did that happen? You have to hold the whole establishment to | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
account, in my view. APPLAUSE. | :17:45. | :17:52. | |
You have to hold politicians to account on all sides. No politician, | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
many my view, did the right thing in the early days, no-one comes out of | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
this with any credit credit but it's the South Yorkshire Police that has | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
to be held to account. This police force has consistently put | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
protecting itself before those who suffered harm an horror at | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
Hillsborough. They have perpetrated a 27-year cover-up that was advanced | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
in the committee rooms of the House of Commons and in the press rooms of | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
Downing Street. Shamefully, they carried on that cover-up in the | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
courtrooms in Warrington, spending millions of pounds of public money | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
rerunning discredited lies. That is the level of change that we need to | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
see here, we need to see real change and accountability at South | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
Yorkshire Police. I don't blame the ordinary men and women who tried to | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
help on the day, the policemen and women, or indeed those on the | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
streets trying to keep South Yorkshire safe today but by God they | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
have been let down by the leadership of that force over the many years. | :18:48. | :18:54. | |
APPLAUSE. Real change there. As the gentleman | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
said, the media has to be held to account too. Because that | :18:59. | :19:05. | |
front-page, those lies were told at Liverpool's moment of greatest | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
grief. My constituent who came home after his friend had died at | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
Hillsborough picked up that newspaper and was told he was to | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
blame. That is why Liverpool has felt this so deeply for all of these | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
years. We need to see people held to account. We need Leveson too so we | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
have a proper framework for accountability in terms of police | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
and press relations. If I could say one last thing as a positive, I hope | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
Hillsborough will change the country. I want to change the law so | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
that police officers can't retire to escape misconduct proceedings and | :19:38. | :19:39. | |
keep their pensions. APPLAUSE. | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
But I also want - last point, David - I also hope that the country will | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
look differently at Liverpool now. The fight that has been mounted. For | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
years, they were looked down upon by many people, called self-pity City | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
by Boris Johnson, but do you know what they really are, solidarity | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
city, red and blue together! And, in the end, those values of Liverpool | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
have shone through. Liverpool has prevailed, the families have | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
prevailed in all adversity and that's the final thing I would say. | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
When I used to go round the country, people would say why can't they move | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
on, they are whinging Scousers. The story at the end of the day is, do | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
you know what, those whinging Scousers just happened to be right. | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
Hear, hear. APPLAUSE. | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
You, Sir? I would just like to correct Mr Clark, I don't think the | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
Hillsborough families have waited for decades and decades to learn the | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
truth. I think they knew the truth all the time. They did. What they | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
have had to wait for is for the establishment to be forced to face | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
up to the truth and I would say thank goodness for the families of | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
the Hillsborough disaster and thank God for the Liverpudlians. | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
APPLAUSE. God for the Liverpudlians. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
Let's say thank God to the jury system in this country too. | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
Let's say thank God to the jury were the people who, in the end, | :21:13. | :21:14. | |
were able to give a clear decision and it's not a system | :21:15. | :21:16. | |
were able to give a clear decision any further in Europe I think than | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
in the UK. It's a very important system of arriving at justice. I | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
think all credit to that jury too. Of course, you can see how this | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
began partly because people on the whole want to trust the police, we | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
wanted to trust the police, we still want to trust the police because | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
they carry our lives in their hands. It was difficult to begin with | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
probably for many people to accept that the police could have acted in | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
this way. But of course, we see also from an initial attempt at cover-up | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
how it ballooned and how one lie developed and developed rather than | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
admitting quickly I made a terrible mistake, someone said I didn't do it | :22:05. | :22:05. | |
or I did something different and mistake, someone said I didn't do it | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
tried to pass the blame on and so deceit swells into this huge thing | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
20 years on which is still being unravelled. That is a terrible | :22:18. | :22:18. | |
thing. Thank unravelled. That is a terrible | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
arrived at the truth in the end. Thank you. | :22:24. | :22:24. | |
APPLAUSE. Thank you. | :22:25. | :22:33. | |
Had the police not acted, we might have found out a bit sooner, all the | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
other people implicated like the sellers of tickets for that ground | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
that knew these people couldn't have been accommodated, the health and | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
safety issues, so many things that eventuallily been corrected but | :22:48. | :22:50. | |
because the police didn't act as they should have done at the start, | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
these things happened. The woman there? Would the panel | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
agree that for Bernard Ingham, who had so much to say at the time, the | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
fact he's refused to apologise since, that he should have his | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
Knighthood stripped? APPLAUSE. | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
Mrs Thatcher's press secretary, Bernard Ingham? I can't speak to the | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
Bernard Ingham situation but looking at it first of all, I want to pay | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
tribute to Andy as well because, as the outsider on the panel, I'm not a | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
politician, everybody likes to knock politicians, this is one of the | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
great examples of a politician really doing great work and fighting | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
for justice and I pay tribute to him. | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
APPLAUSE. Looking at it today, it's a massive | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
injustice that's been done and it's blighted the families for their | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
whole lives. Looking at it now though, there's a danger that we go | :23:51. | :23:59. | |
from one massive blame on the Liverpool families and fans to | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
massive blame on South Yorkshire Police. There are new young recruits | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
in South Yorkshire Police that are coming in, they are idealistic, they | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
want to serve their country and do public service, so the issue is, as | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
you said, who is to, it's the leadership of South Yorkshire Police | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
through several generations and, for me, as a person looking at it, the | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
real rottenness at the core of it is determination to distort the truth, | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
to mislead on all levels. Looking at the TV footage, John Motson, five or | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
ten minutes after the crushing started, was saying that the fans | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
had broken the gates down. So he'd been fed that. He was fed a lie and | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
it started five minutes in. Then the Sun newspaper, they were fed lies | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
about pick-pocketing and so on and so forth. So there was a systematic | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
way and of trying to manipulate the press. You saw a similar thing with | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
Cliff Richard which was a very shocking thing. It was through a | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
media exercise, bringing the media in to make themselves look good | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
before a man had been actually found guilty or charged with anything. | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
That for me, it's the top of the South Yorkshire Police where there's | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
been rottenness to the core for many years. Alex Salmond? Paul's | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
obviously right. No-one blames the young officers going into the South | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
Yorkshire Police or for that matter the young officers who were at | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
Hillsborough, many of whom were trying to do their best to save the | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
fans on the day. What happened on the day caused 96 lives, | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
bereavements for 96 families, but what happened on the day wasn't | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
intended. The police made bad decisions, they were culpable, | :25:46. | :25:47. | |
according to the jury, a jury who were allowed to hear the truth, | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
unlike the first jury. It was unlawful and therefore probably | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
criminal. But it was tragic and unintended. The real point is what's | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
happened over the last 27 years, wasn't unintended, it was a | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
conspiracy, it was deliberate manipulation and lies and deception | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
that have kept these 96 families over the last 27 years fighting this | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
agony supported ably by politicians like Andy. | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
Now, the point about Andy and Theresa May, the current Home | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
Secretary, is that they are the first people in responsibility to | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
answer the family's call and shame on the predecessors of handy and | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
Theresa May who, despite, as the gentleman said, overwhelming | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
evidence, the initial report put responsibility with responsibility | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
and despite that, the families were unable to get justice. So what | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
should be done? Well, what should be done is, the people who were part of | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
the conspiracy should be tried. They should be tried for purgery, they | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
should be tried for perverting the course of justice. | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
APPLAUSE. They should be tried for conspiracy | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
to pervert the course of justice with exemplary penalties that these | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
offences carry. Secondly, and equally as important, what happened, | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
why it took so long, was that these families had to go into hearing | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
after hearing, court after court, and they were not badly represented, | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
but there was a huge inequality between the representation available | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
to these families and the institutional representation paid | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
for by public money which was available to South Yorkshire Police. | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
That's the imbalance, that's the injustice, that's the unfairness | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
that has to be rectified if what comes out of Hillsborough is this | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
never happens again. The woman there, then you and then you Andy? | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
You talk about accountability, Andy, what about the accountability of the | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
people that decided to put those fences up, to put them like cattle, | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
for want of a better word, and if them fences hadn't have been up, | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
there wouldn't have been as many people that died? There had been a | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
warning in the north, particularly with South Yorkshire Police. The | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
miners can tell you straightaway. That goes right to the heart of | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
Government. It really is time that now we go backwards again and look | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
at the mistakes that were made there because again, there was a | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
conspiracy made and actually, there's a real class issue here that | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
needs to be addressed. APPLAUSE. | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
To you briefly? One of the impressive things that's come out | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
this week is the agreements between Andy and the Home Secretary that all | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
of these abuses need to be looked into and Theresa May made a | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
commitment to Andy Burnham across the floor of the House of Commons | :28:54. | :29:02. | |
that, not just orgrieve but the other scandals that have affected | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
the North Yorkshire police force, the Rotherham child abuse scandal | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
for example, these all need to be looked at very seriously. For a Home | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
Secretary to be unflinching in being willing to confront these shocking | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
questions that have been unresolved, I think it's a step forward for the | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
way that we run our country. You wanted to say a brief word? I do, in | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
agreeing with everybody on the panel. Why have we now got this | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
verdict, 96 unlawful deaths? It's because what the lady said, there | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
was a complete disregard for football supporters' safety in that | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
period. Let's remember, this was four years after the Bradford fire, | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
four years after the Bradford fire and yet we had those pens and | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
fences. I was an Everton supporter at Hillsborough the year before and | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
it was the worst afternoon I'd ever had at a football match in the | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
central pens. I looked at my brother's head for the whole game | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
because I didn't want to lose him, that's how bad it was. It is class, | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
just to finish, an us and them. It needs to go wider now. It's about | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
power. The lady mentioned Bernard Ingham, yes, he called the Liverpool | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
supporters a tanked up mob straight after as part of the cover-up. There | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
is an elite in politics, in the police, in the legal system, in the | :30:19. | :30:25. | |
media too, that collude together to exorcise power over ordinary people. | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
That's the story of Hillsborough, but you have to have the other story | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
as well, if you are going to know the full truth about Hillsborough. | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
If we are never going to let this happen again, you have to | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
fundamentally rebalance the system in the way Alex Salmond is saying | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
and give ordinary people the ability to get truth and justice when they | :30:45. | :30:46. | |
need it. APPLAUSE. | :30:47. | :30:54. | |
We are in Manchester next week and Aberdeen the week after that. | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
Details of how to apply are on screen. You can apply on the | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
website, or give us a call. Let's go onto Linda Robinson. If we stay in | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
the EU, how can immigration be controlled, to ensure jobs and | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
services are not stretched to collapse? Paul Marshall. It can't. | :31:18. | :31:19. | |
APPLAUSE The EU has a unique approach to | :31:20. | :31:32. | |
movement of peoples. Every other free trade zone in the world has no | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
requirement about free movement of peoples. And the EU has an | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
ideological commitment to free movement of people, which means we | :31:42. | :31:50. | |
get at the moment about 250 up to 300,000 immigrants a year from the | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
EU, which we can't do anything about. That means that Theresa May | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
is having to restrict other kinds of immigrants from other places that we | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
actually need. In Hull, the immigrant population has tripled in | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
the last 10-15 years, mostly from the EU. That existing situation is | :32:09. | :32:16. | |
now being compounded on a massive scale by a second mistake by Angela | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
Merkel, which is to invite a huge number of migrants from the Middle | :32:23. | :32:30. | |
East and Africa, which has created a very large historic waves of | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
immigration. If you think about the population forecast for the world in | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
the next 20-30 years is to go from 7 billion up to 10 billion. Most of | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
those extra people will be in Africa, will have mobile phones, and | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
we'll be hearing Africa, will have mobile phones, and | :32:47. | :32:48. | |
the EU. So we have a Africa, will have mobile phones, and | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
in the whole debate about migration. Africa, will have mobile phones, and | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
As you say, that is already putting Africa, will have mobile phones, and | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
within the EU, Africa, will have mobile phones, and | :33:05. | :33:06. | |
of policies, you can't do anything Africa, will have mobile phones, and | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
about it. I take it you are voting Brexit. You got it. | :33:12. | :33:12. | |
APPLAUSE I can't believe what I've just | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
heard, in all honesty. Everybody in I can't believe what I've just | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
Africa will have a mobile phone and will be able to tell each other how | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
amazing it is in Europe! What a ridiculous statement. | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
amazing it is in Europe! What a lot of places, coming through | :33:39. | :33:40. | |
amazing it is in Europe! What a to our country, are doing it because | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
they are desperate? They are not doing it because they are having a | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
little chat on Facebook about how amazing this | :33:49. | :33:49. | |
little chat on Facebook about how ridiculous thing to say. | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
little chat on Facebook about how doing it because they are desperate. | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
A large number of the migrants into Europe are actually the wealthier | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
group of migrants, whether from Syria or from Africa. And a lot of | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
them do have access to mobile phones. Syria is a war zone. Yes. So | :34:10. | :34:17. | |
you are telling me the majority of people coming from Syria are doing | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
so because they are wealthy? The majority of people coming from Syria | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
are in fear of their lives. The majority coming from Syria to Europe | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
are the ones who can afford to pay the fees to get in. The ones who are | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
poor... What about the 3000 children that are coming alone from Syria? | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
Are they wealthy? The ones who are poor are the 2 million refugees are | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
sitting in Lebanon, the 1.5 million sitting in Jordan and the 2 million | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
on the Turkish border. They can't afford to come to Europe. Let's go | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
back to Linda's question, which was if we stay in the EU how can | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
immigration be controlled to ensure jobs and services are not stretched | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
to collapse? It can't, in an absolute sense, of course. This | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
debate between the lady and Paul is the very nub of the argument. Other | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
people who have been responding in this huge migrant crisis, are they | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
people who have been pulled in by information about the wonderful life | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
they have had in Europe, or are they people rushed out by civil war and | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
desperation? I agree with the lady, they have been pushed out and are | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
fleeing for their lives, and that is why so many have died. In a week | :35:38. | :35:46. | |
when the House of Commons, to its shame, refused what the House of | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
Lords suggested, to take in 3000 unaccompanied children, in an | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
atmosphere where 10,000 children have already gone missing, in terms | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
of we don't know where they are, who are clearly in danger... I am sorry, | :35:58. | :36:04. | |
but the sort of logic and argument you have put forward is the excuse | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
for why so many of these members of Parliament went through the lobbies | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
and denied the right of even 3000 children to come to this country for | :36:13. | :36:20. | |
safety and security. The question, Linda's question is about long-term | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
immigration. As you know, the official figures estimate 3 million | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
more EU migrants up to 2030. I think that is the question you were | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
asking. She is nodding. Not the specific interest of refugees from | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
Syria. With respect, Paul took us very much onto that subject. I would | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
argue a different position in terms of people. We were talking earlier | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
about the Jewish community. And I mentioned I was on the Holocaust | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
Memorial Day trust. One of the things that trust and foundation is | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
doing is not just having a memorial so that people remember the | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
Holocaust, but celebrating the achievements of the people who came | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
to this country, fleeing the terror of Nazi Germany, and the | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
achievements of their descendants. I come from a country which has not | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
suffered from immigration, but has suffered over the last century and a | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
half from immigration. And all of the Scots who have left have made | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
profound differences to the countries they have gone to, | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
achieved great things. So I don't like or accept the argument that | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
immigration is a bad thing. I think immigration is a good thing, and I | :37:38. | :37:46. | |
think strong societies have the ability to take the talents and | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
abilities of people and make our country better, so I don't accept | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
the premise. You are talking about a different question. Do you think the | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
3 million people who would come from Europe into this country over the | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
next ten years are people bringing talents we cannot supply in this | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
country? Aren't they people who would come because obviously if we | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
have a living wage which is more than double what they can earn in | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
Romanian and Bulgarian, of course they will come if they get the | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
chance? They are not coming for the benefits, then? Because that was the | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
previous argument, they were coming for the benefits. Iden thing they | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
are. I don't understand a Government that on the one hand is introducing | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
a living wage to beat all those wages... I don't understand the | :38:34. | :38:44. | |
government at all! The government can't sustain that. Are they | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
answering the question you asked? No. My question is that I have no | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
problem with the lady here about political or any other asylum. That | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
is our heritage and we should continue doing that. I have worked | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
in industries, HR and training, where I have worked with a | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
production line that has been put up the -- predominantly Eastern | :39:12. | :39:13. | |
European, to the extent that one of our employees who was British went | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
off with to trash -- depression because nobody spoke to him in his | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
own language for a ten hour shift. He was totally and utterly isolated. | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
These people are great, they work hard. You cannot say they are coming | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
for benefits because they are not. They are coming because they want to | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
work. The trouble is that we do not have an infinite amount of jobs. We | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
do not have an infinite amount of NHS or housing. We are a small | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
country. Something has to give. APPLAUSE | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
We are sitting here in the city of Hull, one of the cities of the | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
nation that has always been connected with the world. Its | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
prosperity, magnificent buildings like that, were based on being open | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
to the world and trading with the world. Very recently in this city we | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
had major investment. Everyone knows that Siemens are investing ?1 | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
billion in this city. That will involve some people from Germany | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
coming to work here, just as people from Hull will go and work in | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
Germany. That has been part of the way, through generations, that we | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
have succeeded as a trading city. I think it would be a big mistake for | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
the United Kingdom, as Siemens have said, as well as for them is a firm, | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
if we turn our back on that tradition. We are about to have a | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
referendum. They are investing in the full knowledge that there is a | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
risk of this country deciding to leave Europe. Siemens is not going | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
away. Siemens has come knowing that that is a possibility. This is | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
nonsense to suggest that these things won't happen if we leave the | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
EU. The figure of 3 million new immigrants by 2030, are you happy | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
with that? That was a figure the office for National Statistics have | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
published before. The Government, rather than to use a different | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
figure that they had estimated for the purpose, they said, we want to | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
reduce immigration, but we will use the figure that is out there. You | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
are happy with that? That would be all right? You answer her question | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
about schools and the National Health Service. Theresa May has been | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
clear that we want to bring down the levels of immigration, but in terms | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
of putting that model out, responsibly, we have reviewed the | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
figures... Because she knows she can't. She herself has said it is | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
harder to control immigration being in the EU. Very honestly, Theresa | :41:53. | :42:02. | |
May made clear that with the EU policy she cannot control | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
immigration, and she can't control who comes in. The living wage is six | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
times what it is in Romanian and Bulgarian. It is very attractive to | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
them. Our immigration quota gets filled up with low skilled workers | :42:15. | :42:16. | |
and we are not able to filled up with low skilled workers | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
nurses, teachers, the IT programmers that the economy needs. | :42:21. | :42:21. | |
APPLAUSE You, sir. 3 million people coming in | :42:22. | :42:32. | |
from basically Eastern Europe in the next ten years is the equivalent of | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
building tens cities the size of Nottingham. How can the country cope | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
with doing that? It is impossible. I will go directly to the Lady's | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
question, because you need an answer. I think it is in the | :42:47. | :42:54. | |
interests of the country to stay in Europe. | :42:55. | :42:54. | |
APPLAUSE However, I do recognise the general | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
concern about immigration. I hear many of the things you have said in | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
my constituency. You wanted something practical, didn't you? My | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
answer would be, look at protecting skilled wages. Why are production | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
lines the way you have described? Because companies go abroad and | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
bring people in. If there were European rules that protected the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
wages of the skilled workforce, there would not be that incentive | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
for them to go around and bring people into undercut the skilled | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
wage level. That is my vision of Europe, a social Europe, a people's | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
Europe that works for everybody. To put it in context, we have to | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
remember in this debate some of the points that Alex Wright be made. | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
Immigration is not a one-way street, as sometimes presented. There are | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
millions of British people around Europe, working abroad, as my dad | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
did. Also, they are net contribute is. That is totally dishonest. | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
People coming in are net contributors. They add to the | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
British economy. As you rightly said, the refugee situation is | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
entirely within our control because we are outside Schengen. If we left | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
the European Union and wanted trade benefits, we would have to accept | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
free movement. I am fed up with the lines being given by the Government, | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
and joining in with... Talk about elites. We are being browbeaten into | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
thinking that life will stop when we leave the EU. It has to be when, not | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
if, because we cannot control our future, cannot control our borders. | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
David Cameron wants to pave the way from Ankara in Turkey to Brussels, | :44:47. | :44:53. | |
so that Turkey can join the EU. 75 million people. Turkey is bordered | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
by Syria, Iran and Iraq. Do we think that will improve our security | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
situation? Do we think there is a possibility that we will know who is | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
at large in an enlarged Europe? This is crazy? But the politicians who | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
are telling us we can't leave Europe, five minutes ago were saying | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
they were worried about this. Theresa May is worried about this. | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
In that case, go with what you believe and leave? | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
We must have some kind of discipline of question and answer, not | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
everybody speaking over everybody because then nobody can hear. The | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
man in the blue shirt, I would like to go back to him and then maybe | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
Greg Clark could answer it, you put the question? Yes. You are looking | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
at three million people coming in, so it's the equivalent of building | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
ten cities the size of Nottingham in that time span and all the drains on | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
social services, health, schools, that will go with the ten cities. | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
How are we going to cope with doing that? Basically, they're economic | :45:57. | :46:03. | |
migrants from Europe and they are going to be a massive drain on | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
society. You are the communities minister, the Secretary of State, so | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
what is your answer? Two things; first of all, as part of the | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
negotiation, we have for the first time the ability to require people | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
to contribute to the benefits system before they can... That is a very | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
significant change. The second thing goes to the point that the lady made | :46:25. | :46:32. | |
earlier about many people working, coming from Eastern Europe to do | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
jobs that other people from this country haven't been doing. What | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
we've had is the introduction of the national living wage and the | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
increased pay can help make those jobs more attractive for people here | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
that haven't been doing them in the past. There's a question that needs | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
to be answered by Jill and Paul, if we do leave the European Union, what | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
are we going to do? Are we going to require visas from people from Spain | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
and France to come into this country? You know perfectly well, if | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
we don't choose to... But... There are a good many countries who should | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
have to do that. Paul, you take this? We can either choose to have | :47:20. | :47:26. | |
them or not. What is the proposal? There doesn't need to be a proposal. | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
We need to know what it would be like. Which countries do you want, | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
within the European Union, to prevent people from coming from, | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
France, Spain, which ones? It's not a matter of the countries, it's | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
whether people have the skills that we need, because they'll bring | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
something to this country we can't provide at home. Other civilised | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
countries can operate such systems perfectly well, we simply don't have | :47:52. | :47:53. | |
the choice at the moment and can't get it. I want to go back to our | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
audience. We have heard from a number of people worried about | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
immigration and presumably also voting Brexit because of it. I would | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
like to hear, because I know you are fairly evenly divided, from people | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
who'd like us to remain. A few hands go down. You, Sir? | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
The man in the pale blue behind you. I'm undecided on the remain or | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
leave. I want to refer back to Jill's point about the 75 million | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
Turks coming into the UK. That's scare morning saying 75 million | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
people are going to come here. That's not going to happen and for | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
Turkey to join the EU, they have to fill 20 conditions and the reality | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
they have only fulfilled three at the moment so that reality is a long | :48:40. | :48:49. | |
way off. I think if he's got a mobile phone to phone his relatives | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
here - I think that is a an offensive remark used by the | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
gentleman there. As a migrant, life is not easy in the UK. The | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
misconception that we hear all the time when in the streets or when we | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
talk to people, that we are here for the benefits, we are here for that, | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
we are all here or we move around the world to better our lives, | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
that's the bottom line about immigration. Everyone moves where | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
they can see that they can make a better life for themselves. So the | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
whole EU referendum for me or for my colleagues, other immigrants, is a | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
referendum on immigration because, if the numbers were not shown to be | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
as big as they are, I don't think we'll be having the EU referendum. | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
What is your own, just if I may, your story, when did you come to | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
Britain? I think the personal story would be for another day, but I | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
think... All right. But the issue is, there is a misconception. I | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
don't know what remark you are referring to, but I presume it's the | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
remark about the large scale migration. Is it about everybody | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
having mobile telephones? There is a lot of that goes on. | :50:02. | :50:10. | |
There are two issues that are being conflated here. One is the large | :50:11. | :50:18. | |
scale migration that is now starting which is an economic phenomena, and | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
the other is the refugees' link to Syria and the Middle East and | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
they're very different issues. In my remarks, I referred to the risk of | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
large scale economic migration. All migration is economic migration. No, | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
it's not. Let me explain. Wars disrupt economy and livelihoods so | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
when that happens, people move to places where they are safe to | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
continue their lives because, I'm telling you this because I'm an | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
immigrant so you are not a migrant, you can tell me what life is about. | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
So at the end of the day, I think there needs to be factual arguments | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
in regards to these issues. OK. We've only got six or seven | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
minutes left. Just one point about the economy. Greg Clark, will we be | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
better off, richer as a society, if we stay? | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
Yes, we will, and you LAUGHTER. . Just need to look at the | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
respective commentators from the Bank of England, to the OECD, to the | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
leaders of our trading partners right across the world, not just in | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
Europe. Is this your strongest argument for voting? I think it's | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
very clear from everyone that's... Like Mark Carney got his forecast | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
right? ! Access to markets and prosperity. If we were to take this | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
big risk of leaving the EU. And Jill better off or not? The OECD is | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
funded by the EU. Nobody knows what growth is going to be in the next | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
quarter, let alone 15 years ahead. Nobody can forecast. Nobody knows? I | :51:59. | :52:06. | |
think we shall be... Brexit with your fingers crossed? No, I think | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
we'll be better off because we'll be free to make decisions which are in | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
our own interests as strong world power. Jill says it as though we'll | :52:15. | :52:24. | |
go back to... ?350 million million every week. Jill says it as though | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
we'll go back to what we were. No, we don't want to go back anywhere, I | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
want to go forward in freedom. Britain's history after the war, | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
Britain was an outward lacking nation. If we leave, who'll be the | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
happiest, Russia or America, I can tell you now it will be Russia. The | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
patriotic case is to stay in to be true to Britain's past. | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
APPLAUSE. And secondly. No, not secondly. Who | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
shouted out rub snish you can add to the point? Was it you? No. You? OK. | :52:57. | :53:10. | |
I'm in. That's a rubbish argument, Andy. It would lead, not just to the | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
break-up of Europe, it would lead to the break-up of Britain because | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
there'll be a demand for a second referendum. We have got Alex Salmond | :53:18. | :53:26. | |
here. We've got a question from David Reid. Will Brexit lead | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
inevitably to the break-up of the United Kingdom? Your call, Alex | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
Salmond? We've heard it from Andy, I agree with Andy. If you had a | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
situation where, and it looks like Scotland are going to vote very | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
strongly in fave, if you are in a situation where Scotland is dragged | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
out of Europe against the will of the Scottish people, then that would | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
be a change in material circumstances that would justify | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
another referendum. You might say, oh, well, I'm going to campaign to | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
bring about that situation, well, I'm not. I believe, like Andy, that | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
these islands' future is, as a European country, and we should do | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
that because it's the best thing. But if the cards fall, as you | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
describe, Sir, there would be another Scottish referendum and this | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
time I think that yes would win it. One last thing, I'm the last person | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
in the world, having gone through that referendum experience two years | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
ago, to have any respect for project fear, whether it comes from the Tory | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
government or project fear, whether it comes from the Brexiters, but | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
whatever else you do, make up your minds, not on the hideous things, | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
the plagues of Egypt that will descend on this benighted country if | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
it does one thing or the other, make up your mind on principle, on who | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
you believe that we should share things with the other countries of | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
Europe or whether you believe there are advantages in doing something | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
else. Don't believe the scare mongers on either side. Paul? I may | :54:55. | :55:07. | |
not speak for all the people in favour of Brexit, but if Scotland | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
did leave the United Kingdom, in my regard, that is a win-win. Alex is a | :55:13. | :55:24. | |
very canny politician and he managed to negotiate an even better subsidy | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
for Scotland than they previously had. Scottish people get ?1200 per | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
person more than English people. You don't like refugees or Scots, | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
anybody else you don't like? I like... Do you like people in Hull? | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
I like everybody who stand on their own two feet. You used to like | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
Liberal Democrats, but not any more? ! The Scots need toe stand on their | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
own two feet, they have a ?15 billion deficit. Alex Salmond, I've | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
always taken to be a man of his word. During the Scottish referendum | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
campaign, Alex said as First Minister very clearly that this was | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
a once in the lifetime referendum in Scotland and that people needed to | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
bear that in mind. We knew that the Government was committed to having a | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
referendum on the EU, he didn't mention it at the time, I think that | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
he should be consistent with the position that he took. All right. | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
During the general election of last year... We have got to stop, Alex, | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
we have run out of time. We won 56 out of 59. You said it was a once in | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
a lifetime. This isn't a once in a lifetime referendum because | :56:37. | :56:38. | |
everybodith everybody that votes in, they can vote again if it doesn't | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
work out. If you vote in, you've got another chance? I want to go | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
straight to the question. I commend Alex on his honesty her, gave a very | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
honest answer there before. For the people sitting at home watching this | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
programme tonight, I think in my view, he's just given them the | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
single biggest reason to go out and vote in because if you love Britain, | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
if you want it to stay together, vote for it to remain in the | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
European Union as a partnership and vote for it so that it stays | :57:06. | :57:15. | |
together as a British partnership. APPLAUSE. | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
The voice in my head tells me we are overrunning our hour and Andrew Neil | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
will be very, very cross with us. Good, good. Win-win! | :57:24. | :57:32. | |
So we have to stop. Sorry to those who couldn't get in. Thank you for | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
so many hands being up, sorry we can't do more than the hour. Perhaps | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
you should come to Manchester next week all of you, we'll start all | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
over again. We have the former Chancellor Nigel Lawson, the boss of | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
Ryanair making a rare appearance on Question Time, Michael O'Leary, and | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
that's in Manchester and we are in Aberdeen the week after that. If you | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
want to go to either of those venues, go to our website, or call | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
us. If you are listening own Radio 5 Live and you can bear more, the | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
debate goes on until the early hours, but here it comes to a halt, | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
well in the studio it does, no doubt it will go on outside. My thanks to | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
the panel and to all of you who came to Hull. Until next week on Question | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
Time, good night. | :58:23. | :58:28. |