21/04/2016 Question Time


21/04/2016

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Tonight, we are in Exeter and this is Question Time.

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Good evening and welcome to you, whether you are watching, listening

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on the radio, and to our panel. The Conservative former Defence

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Secretary, Liam Fox. Former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Paddy

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Ashdown. The Labour MP campaigning to leave the European Union, Kate

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Hoey. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the founder and

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chairman of the Wetherspoon chain of pubs, Tim Martin.

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As we go into this hour of debate, remember Facebook, Twitter, all at

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your disposal. Or you can text if you want to take issue with what the

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panel and audience are saying. Our first question from Louise

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Haines. Is it OK for Barack Obama to come to the UK and tell us how to

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vote in the EU referendum? Barack Obama, who arrives today. Liam Fox.

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Well, the president is entitled to be heard. He is our closest ally in

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the world. My problem with this is that what he is talking about for

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Britain is something that America would never except for itself. You

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would never have would never except for itself. You

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accepting a court telling the Supreme Court what to do. They would

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never except an open border with Mexico. You would never expect

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Congress to allow someone else to tell them how to spend money.

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Congress to allow someone else to when you get involved in any one

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else's domestic politics. If there is

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else's domestic politics. If there your national-security, you probably

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need to speak out. But I don't like being told we should accept one

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thing that the Americans wouldn't. My message to President Obama would

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be, can we cope with making My message to President Obama would

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laws? Can we cope with controlling our borders? Can we cope with

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In the past, you have lectured America on what you think they

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should do, haven't you? It is not a question of... You have. And I am

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not head of state. We know that. So it is all right for you? We all have

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opinions but he is dead of state. To come and say to us, you should

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accept something for come and say to us, you should

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Kingdom that we would never except for the United States, I think he

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should pause and think of for the United States, I think he

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message that gives. -- he is the head of state. That is not what he

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is saying. He is saying you should make up your own mind about this.

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Look, 19 and years ago this month, the American president, in 1917,

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Look, 19 and years ago this month, took the decision that American

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troops would be sent to Europe. They were, by the thousand. We would

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probably have lost the First World War had it not been for the

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intervention of America to save our freedom. And they did it again in

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the Second World War. And they did it again in the Cold War. And in

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those three wars, 1.5 million Young American soldiers were killed or

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wounded. What reason is he here? There are 1.5 million reasons.

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America has in the past protected us, defended us at every one of the

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dangerous moments we have faced. If it is the President's view, and it

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is mine too, that the step we are about to take will introduce

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instability into Europe at a time which is exceedingly dangerous, he

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has a right to say that, and he has a right to tell us that this step

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will endanger the safety of both his country and Europe and ourselves.

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Hang on a second, Tim, let me finish. Now, he does come here as a

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head of state of the greatest nation on earth. And our constant friend in

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times of the most difficulty over the last 100 years. We should give

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him a hearing and we should listen. And we should treat him with

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respect. And the one thing we should not do is to do what Kate Hoey did

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the other day, call him a patronising hypocrite. That is bad

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manners and it shames all of us. APPLAUSE

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Kate Hoey ought to be able to answer that. Well, I did not actually call

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him a patronising hypocrite. I said he was hypocritical and he was being

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patronising. LAUGHTER

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You should read it more carefully. I don't think President Obama woke up

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one morning and said with Michelle, we have got to go to London and tell

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the people that they need to stay and vote to stay in the European

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Union. We know why he has come, and it is a very useful time to come and

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have lunch with Her Majesty and that is great and I have no objection to

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him coming to say goodbye. But of course we know he was asked by the

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Prime Minister. David Cameron literally, I believe, not

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necessarily got down on his knees, but pleaded with him to come because

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he needs him, because he knows the campaign has not been going well. Do

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you have a tiny bit of evidence to support that? I know David Cameron

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is spending a lot of time instead of looking after the steel industry and

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other issues that we might come onto in going round the country and going

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round getting every single international figure he can get to

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come along and tell the British people. But the reality in terms of

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the security issue is ridiculous. The Americans have their own

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interest. I know they are our greatest neighbour and friend we

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want to be working with, but they have their own interest. They tried

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to stop us defending the Falklands. They tried to stop us when they

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invaded Grenada, and part of the Commonwealth, they did not come us.

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It is in their interests because they see us in the European Union as

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their spokesperson. If we leave, why would we not still be part of being

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friendly with the United States to with them? Let's hear from you in

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the front row. I wonder whether he is saying what is in America's

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interest, or in our interest. Leanne Wood. Well, I don't remember there

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being a big outcry when President Obama intervened in the Scottish

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referendum debate. I think many Tories welcomed his intervention

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then, telling Scots that Scotland would be better off as part of the

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United Kingdom. So either it is OK for the president of the United

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States to intervene on matters in the UK, or it is not. You cannot

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pick and choose depending on the referendum. But I would say, from a

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Welsh perspective, we have elections to the National Assembly in two

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weeks, and this debate has completely dominated politics for a

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number of weeks now. And the danger for us is that the very important

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issues, the fact that we have had 17 years of age they buy led

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government, they are the establishment in Wales. -- of a

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labour- led government. We are not doing a party political broadcast.

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Well, if it was OK for him to intervene in the Scottish referendum

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campaign, it has to be OK for him to intervene in this one. The man in

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the gallery. To link this back, as Paddy did, to a security issue, the

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reason the Americans can have an opinion on things, surely security

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in Europe has been a Nato programme, and we joined the single market, the

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political project that is Europe in the 1970s. So it is nothing to do

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with the war is and what has happened since the war is. Tim

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Martin. I agree with what you said about Nato. If Barack Obama wants to

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speak out, or Prince Charles wants to speak out, you can't stop them. I

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think it's slightly repugnant the way it does seem to be the great and

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the good. Even the New Zealand Prime Minister has been asked to comment

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on the European Union. So there is quite a lot of interference. I

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utterly disagree with Paddy's analysis of the situation. What has

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made America great, the top military power, fantastically powerful

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economy, perhaps the greatest country in the world, is the fact

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that it is a democracy. And that democracy is enshrined in their

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constitution. And if you look around the world now, it is democratic

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countries which are the most prosperous, and democratic countries

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which have the most freedom. And America is a shining example of

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that. The problem with Europe is that it is removing democracy...

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APPLAUSE And that is the issue. We were

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dealing with Barack Obama's visit. We have a question on Europe coming

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up, so let's go to that and we will just move on. Robin Horne, please.

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Are the Treasury right to use scare tactics in the forthcoming

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referendum? This was the latest announcement by the Treasury saying

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that on average, by 2030, households would have to pay, would lose ?4300

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a year. Paddy, I will come to you but first I want to ask a question

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which has been niggling at me. When we saw you and Neil Kinnock and

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David Cameron on those telephones this week, who were you actually

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talking to? We were talking to help others on the Remain campaign. You

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were not calling people? No, we were bringing them to say thank you. --

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we were ringing them. I had just discovered three Lib Dems in a row.

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The third one said, can I speak to the Prime Minister to persuade him

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to vote Lib Dem, so I handed it to the Prime Minister. The question

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was, look, I think the Treasury was right. This is well founded, and the

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Financial Times said so, too. I will concede that both sides will no

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doubt massaging arguments in favour and the figure is a bit. They always

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do it and they are probably doing it now. So I invite you not to listen

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to the Treasury. Really? David, you must let me finish. I want you to

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listen instead to the Independent, accepted, respected international

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bodies, who have warned us of the dangers and costs to ourselves and

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the global economy and the European economy of doing a step that would

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take us out of Europe. And the Out campaign say, no, they are wrong.

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They don't explain why they are wrong, they just say they are wrong,

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as if saying it makes it so. So the IMF was wrong, the OECD was wrong,

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the World Trade Organisation was wrong. The G-7 Finance

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the World Trade Organisation was said that were wrong.

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the World Trade Organisation was England governor was wrong. Everyone

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is wrong, except for them. Rubbish. England governor was wrong. Everyone

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Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I am going to set a challenge

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Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I will be interesting. Can they offer

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the name of a will be interesting. Can they offer

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world economy, just as we are coming out of recession and about to be

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plunged back into it? That is what they are saying. Are they wrong? On

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the question, on the Treasury, they are saying. Are they wrong? On

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be frank and honest, all politicians will use negative campaigning at

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some point if it suits them. But if you are going to do it, at least you

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have to be decent about doing it. The thing about the Treasury report

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was that it was cringingly inept. I was embarrassed that it came out of

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the Treasury which I helped get elected, and I think Gordon Brown

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would have blushed at the elected, and I think Gordon Brown

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particular report. Since Paddy wants an explanation, they invented this

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particular report. Since Paddy wants statistic, GDP per household, never

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used anywhere else in government, never used in the Budget, never used

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anywhere else. According have GDP per household of ?68,000.

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2030, they are talking about. What they said was that although the

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economy would continue to grow, whether inside or outside the

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European Union, they believed it would grow slightly more slowly

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outside the European Union. they said, if you make the

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assumption they said, if you make the

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migrants coming in, you end up with this number of 4300. Hang on a

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second. In order for George Osborne to be right, we have to have no

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trade deals outside the European Union, have 3 million migrants,

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which blows apart the Conservative election pledges. And they have to

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be right in their predictions for 60 consecutive quarters. Remember,

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today we got the number that we did not get the number correct from our

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prediction in October last year. So this seems to be a lot for us to

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swallow. Frankly, it was an incredible assessment.

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APPLAUSE Can you, or maybe Kate, can pick up

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on the point Paddy made, which is there are a whole host of these

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reports and the Institute for Fiscal Studies says they are mostly in the

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same direction. Kate was asked if she could name a reputable

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institution. I've got one. The CBI actually commissioned the PWC, Price

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Waterhouse Cooper. They did a report which said yes, of course, when we

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leave immediately, there'll be some uncertainty, but, as the months go

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on, growth will grow, and it is very, very clear that there are

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other independent reports, Capital Economics, the Tosca fund, I don't

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know the details because fundamentally to me, yes, the

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economics is very important and we are going to get all the different

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views and there'll be scare stories. For me, the most important thing

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about why I want people to leave is because I genuinely believe that

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we've lost control of our borders and immigration system but, more

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importantly, we are not an independent country any more. We are

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not. And that is to me the most important thing.

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APPLAUSE Members of audience. The man in the

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checked shirt? I did some maths on the back of an envelope as well. I'm

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an economist and financial adviser and I took the ?10 billion of net

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savings that we'd make if we left Europe and I multiplied those by 14

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which is the number of years up to 2030. I then used the economic

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credit multiplier because you have the benefit of spending that ?10

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billion, the taxes raised on it and the growth and so on. The figure I

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came out with was ?1.5 trillion which means if we leave the European

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Union we'll be able to fund and repay the national debt.

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CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. .

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You should be in the Treasury. Kate Hoey thinks you should be in the

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Treasury. You were asked to name one of the international accredited

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institutions. I wasn't tonight. You have named none of them so far, so

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it would be interesting to see... They all got it wrong on the euro

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panel, you know that. Hang on a second. OK, fine, I accept, they

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could all be wrong. These guys could be right. Are you going to bet the

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whole country on that possibility? If you are, that is fine. If you are

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going to get the whole country on a pious hope, rather than serious

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studies from the international institutions that are respected

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around the world, then you are right to vote Brexit. Now, can I answer

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the question? No, the man over there first, you can come back. Does Liam

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Fox not feel embarrassed at working for a Government that he can't

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support? I mean, they are so inept, he's just said so. The Government is

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so inept? Yes. I said the report was inept, not the Government. I think

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that... The Chancellor... We have different views. We are not going to

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be identical politicians, the public don't want that. What I would say to

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Paddy... No, no, no, you said the Chancellor was inept. I didn't say

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the Government was inept. You said the Chancellor was. I said the

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report was. You didn't say the Chancellor was? No, I said it was

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cringing. Does it embarrass you? To Paddy's point on the IMF... Never

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mind Paddy. Every single one, not just the IMF, the OECD, the Governor

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More of the economics, all of themment. They all said you should

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join the euro, the Bank of England said it would be good for the

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European Union for us to join. Thank goodness we didn't. I'll go around

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the table. The woman up there first in the second row from the back?

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How do you think the Government will be able to guarantee income for

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farmers if we left the European Union? They get so much of their

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income, 55% of their income in 2015 came from being linked with the

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European Union direct payments. How would the Government be able to

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guarantee that? Leanne Wood, you have farmers in Wales that benefit

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from that? I'm really glad use raised that question. We have

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farmers scratching a living on hillsides trying very hard to make

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those businesses a success and I'm very concerned about what will

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happen to those because I have no faith in Westminster whoever is in

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Government to redistribute that wealth in a fair way. They don't

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have a good record on that. So you trust the Europeans better than

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Westminster on this? They are doing that now, there is an element of

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redistribution. But you think a Westminster Government would pull

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back on that if Brexit came about? My party has been campaigning for

:19:56.:19:59.

years with parity. We have had no success in terms of sorting out our

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financial situation. Can I just respond to this point about

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information and figures and the way in which this information is put

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out. People are desperate for accurate information, for facts.

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This is a difficult decision and people want to make an informed

:20:16.:20:20.

decision based on the correct information. The way that figures

:20:21.:20:25.

are being banded about, economic forecasts, way into the future, are

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impossible to predict. Today, it's not just the one side, it's the

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Brexit supporters as well. We had the head of the Office for National

:20:36.:20:41.

Statistics who's questioned the figure of ?350 million that's been

:20:42.:20:46.

used saying that that's how much it costs us to remain a member of the

:20:47.:20:49.

EU. There are questions on both sides and what people want now, in

:20:50.:20:52.

order to make that informed choice on this very important question, is

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to have facts. The problem with facts, Leanne, they can be interpred

:20:58.:21:01.

differently. If I hold up this glass of water in my right hand it's half

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full, if I move it to my left hand, it's half empty. You know, just on

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the farming aspect though, 40% of the money we give into the EU goes

:21:11.:21:14.

to subsidising farmers all over the EU. We are subsidising French

:21:15.:21:20.

farmers, far, far more than our farmers are getting. Before we

:21:21.:21:25.

joined the Common Market, farmers got subsidies.

:21:26.:21:35.

Tim Martin? The farming and agricultural minister, George

:21:36.:21:38.

Eustace, has said that the farming community will continue to be

:21:39.:21:42.

supported to the same level it is within the EU. There is no real EU

:21:43.:21:50.

money. We send money out to the EU and it then comes back to support

:21:51.:21:56.

farmers with strings attached. It's not a very efficient way of running.

:21:57.:22:03.

Why did the NFU vote to remain then? They represent them? Maybe they

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don't believe George Eustace, I but I do. Liam Fox? Paddy Ashdown? In

:22:09.:22:19.

terms of facts, Leanne is right, ?350 million they have been talking

:22:20.:22:23.

about, actually that was checked and on the report announced today by Sir

:22:24.:22:28.

Andrew Dilnot in the UK statisticical agency whose job it is

:22:29.:22:33.

to provide statistics are accurate, says that ?350 million is totally

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inaccurate. He says it's misleading. The actual figure we give to Europe

:22:40.:22:43.

after taking account of the rebates that come back is about ?7.

:22:44.:22:48.

after taking account of the rebates billion, 30p per person per day in

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Britain. I would like to address our economist friend over

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Britain. I would like to address our take that as ?7 billion or ?8

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billion that we pay into the European Union. If we leave, the

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likelihood, you can already see the pound dropping, you are already

:23:05.:23:08.

beginning to see Britain's credit rating being held in question by

:23:09.:23:15.

Standard Poor. If I think it's the case, which is likely, that an exit

:23:16.:23:21.

leads to one quarter of one percent on increase in interest rates on

:23:22.:23:27.

mountain of debt, that ?7 billion is swallowed up the day after many,

:23:28.:23:31.

many times over, leaving aside text true cost of ?23 billion. -- the

:23:32.:23:41.

extra cost of ?23 billion in tariffs that is going to be loaded on the

:23:42.:23:43.

cost of British goods and that is going to be loaded on the

:23:44.:23:50.

which shall be paid for, not by your money, but in lost jobs and

:23:51.:23:53.

which shall be paid for, not by your businesses. This doesn't sound to me

:23:54.:23:54.

like a good deal. We did say we shouldn't take too

:23:55.:23:59.

much account of the figures being banded

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much account of the figures being it's the national statisticical

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agency designed to be able to ensure that figures are correct who

:24:08.:24:10.

criticise the ?350 million, the audience should know that. In

:24:11.:24:14.

terms of farming, to go the audience should know that. In

:24:15.:24:19.

will determine whether we get a the audience should know that. In

:24:20.:24:23.

deal or not, is what is in our mutual interest. We actually import

:24:24.:24:30.

the figure that year was ?19.4 billion worth of agricultural goods

:24:31.:24:32.

from Europe more than we sell to them. It's actually in their

:24:33.:24:36.

interests, even more than ours, to get a Free Trade Agreement,

:24:37.:24:40.

including on agricultural goods. The MFU report actually said, if we

:24:41.:24:47.

assume we have a free trade deal and continue subsidies at the level we

:24:48.:24:53.

do now and I don't know any party proposing anything else, all

:24:54.:24:54.

agricultural sectors proposing anything else, all

:24:55.:24:58.

It doesn't do any good to scare people into thinking the benefits

:24:59.:25:03.

will be less. You, Sir, in the blue suit?

:25:04.:25:10.

will be less. one of the things you asked Kate

:25:11.:25:17.

about earlier was evidence and you are banding around figures that

:25:18.:25:20.

didn't protect the recession and how good or bad the recovery would be.

:25:21.:25:25.

It's not good enough. You with the spectacles in front of him? In the

:25:26.:25:30.

short-term, we see that maybe there'll be a struggle before we can

:25:31.:25:33.

actually negotiate all of these free trade deals. Maybe in the long run

:25:34.:25:36.

you can make the case that it's better to exit but in the short-term

:25:37.:25:41.

there'll be significant pain. More members of audience. You, Sir? Yes.

:25:42.:25:46.

I wonder if at the end of the day, the figures are going to be what

:25:47.:25:50.

people make their decision around. It's very difficult to feel that you

:25:51.:25:53.

can believe any particular set of figures so much that you can rely on

:25:54.:25:56.

them. I believe people will vote on how they feel about the EU and

:25:57.:26:00.

nothing else. APPLAUSE

:26:01.:26:04.

You, Sir? The point I would like to make is, it's all a mess. I have

:26:05.:26:11.

more confidence that we can sort out our own mess and that mess can be

:26:12.:26:14.

sorted out in Brussels. This whole debate is really, and I know Paddy

:26:15.:26:18.

doesn't like me using this word, but it's the establishment who're lining

:26:19.:26:24.

up and uniting against ordinary people who want to have a say for

:26:25.:26:32.

the first time in 40 years. Why does that... Sorry, if it is the

:26:33.:26:37.

establishment... Why is Boris in it? I how come you are one of only seven

:26:38.:26:43.

Labour MPs? No, 12. Going for Brexit. Is the Labour Party the

:26:44.:26:46.

establishment? Is Jeremy Corbyn the establishment? Well, of course,

:26:47.:26:51.

Jeremy's position on the EU is very interesting because, of course,

:26:52.:26:55.

Jeremy was in every single lobby with myself and others right through

:26:56.:26:59.

the last 20 years. But Jeremy is now leader of the party, he wants to

:27:00.:27:03.

keep the party together, he doesn't want to be seeing the divisions that

:27:04.:27:06.

perhaps there are in the Conservatives. And he doesn't want

:27:07.:27:11.

to come on the same side as you, Kate, does he? He actually has a

:27:12.:27:17.

very different view which I support, of what should happen in the EU. I

:27:18.:27:22.

don't believe it will ever reform and therefore I think there's no

:27:23.:27:25.

point in staying in. We are half way through the

:27:26.:27:28.

programme now. More questions. You, madam? Why does everything have to

:27:29.:27:34.

be about the bottom line? Why? Do we not have some vision here? Some

:27:35.:27:39.

leadership? Why are we retreating into petty nationalism? Why do we

:27:40.:27:44.

not want to work with our European friends and neighbour to reform a

:27:45.:27:47.

deeply flawed institution, but to make it better?

:27:48.:27:55.

APPLAUSE I think it's very important to understand that the Europeans are

:27:56.:28:03.

our friends and what's important for them, as important for us, and it's

:28:04.:28:08.

been shown to be the greatest protection against autocrats and

:28:09.:28:13.

war, is that they regain control of their own democracy. And that's what

:28:14.:28:19.

will protect us in the future, so it isn't being a Little Britain to want

:28:20.:28:25.

to have democracy, it's slowly being eroded and that's very dangerous. Is

:28:26.:28:30.

it really a friendly gesture? Let her come back and then Paddy you can

:28:31.:28:35.

reply? Is it really a friendly gesture to throw your toys out of

:28:36.:28:38.

the pram and say you are not going to play any more because it doesn't

:28:39.:28:40.

suit you? We are not doing that. She is right, the great British

:28:41.:28:54.

tradition is to getting gauged. But you are also entirely right in

:28:55.:28:57.

saying this is not just about economics. -- to get engaged. Liam

:28:58.:29:05.

said it was due to Nato that we are at peace. Well, every single one of

:29:06.:29:11.

our Nato allies, and there is no exception, is saying, please do not

:29:12.:29:14.

leave Europe, Nato will be weaker in consequence. Every one of our

:29:15.:29:19.

European allies is saying the same thing. Every one of our Commonwealth

:29:20.:29:24.

allies is saying the same thing. Only one man in our neighbourhood

:29:25.:29:27.

wants us to leave and begin to break up the European Union and you know

:29:28.:29:34.

his name. It is Vladimir Putin. His strategy for the last 30 years has

:29:35.:29:38.

been to divide Europe, to use energy, to use tanks to capture

:29:39.:29:44.

European territory. If you move now to break up the European Union, then

:29:45.:29:48.

I can tell you the one person who will cheer is not a single one of

:29:49.:29:53.

our allies or our friends, but the Russian leader. Vote Brexit, it is

:29:54.:30:04.

what Putin wants you to do. Liam Fox is a former Defence Secretary. What

:30:05.:30:09.

do you make of that? I think it is nonsensical. Paddy, allow him to

:30:10.:30:18.

answer, please. We were in the EU when he annexed Crimea. We were in

:30:19.:30:23.

the EU when he invaded Georgia. It did not seem to dissuade him from

:30:24.:30:27.

those actions. I think that is a ridiculous argument. I want to take

:30:28.:30:32.

up the point the gentleman right at the back made, with the grey hair,

:30:33.:30:36.

if you don't mind me saying that. I do agree. I think this is much more

:30:37.:30:43.

than just about money. And for me and for many people this is about

:30:44.:30:47.

being a self-governing democracy, able to make our own laws, control

:30:48.:30:52.

our borders and control our own money, and to escape from the

:30:53.:30:58.

financial quicksand of the euro. Because the more that the euro drags

:30:59.:31:01.

down the European economy, and I'm not sure people understand this, and

:31:02.:31:07.

the more our economy is successful, the bigger our contribution to the

:31:08.:31:11.

European Union gets. We end up funding a project we stayed out of

:31:12.:31:15.

because we correctly predicted it would fail. Can I ask a very simple

:31:16.:31:19.

question to which there is isn't what answer? Name me one Nato leader

:31:20.:31:25.

of one of our partners in Nato who agrees that Brexit is a good idea

:31:26.:31:31.

for our common security? Just one. Many of them are in the European

:31:32.:31:35.

Union because we give them free British money. Of course they will

:31:36.:31:40.

want us to stay. So you can't name one of our friends who agrees with

:31:41.:31:44.

you. That is the answer. We have to move on. Do you want a last word,

:31:45.:31:54.

Madam? I don't remember a time when we were not part of the common

:31:55.:31:59.

market. I want more information. Facts and figures can be interpreted

:32:00.:32:02.

in different ways but I want to know what is going to happen. I don't

:32:03.:32:06.

know what will happen if we come out. I am on the fence. I know which

:32:07.:32:10.

side I prefer but I am torn and I get bombarded with information.

:32:11.:32:15.

Facts and figures are bombarded. What is going to happen to us? Does

:32:16.:32:22.

this kind of discussion help you? This is a dangerous question to ask.

:32:23.:32:29.

Or does it make it worse? Oui unfortunately, it doesn't. Getting

:32:30.:32:32.

facts and figures, the gentleman in front of me is probably very clever

:32:33.:32:35.

at economics and his maths is probably very good, but he said he

:32:36.:32:40.

wrote it on the back of envelope. We know what is going to happen. How

:32:41.:32:46.

will you make up your mind if you have this and you are bombarded with

:32:47.:32:50.

all this? I'm concerned about immigration, but I also want this

:32:51.:32:55.

country to grow. I want money, investment and jobs for people in

:32:56.:32:58.

this area but I live in an area where farmers need support. We do

:32:59.:33:04.

get money from the EU. It is our money. I know it is our money. I am

:33:05.:33:11.

very torn. The first thing to do is to look at Australia, New Zealand,

:33:12.:33:15.

Canada, the United States, Singapore, countries which are

:33:16.:33:18.

independent democracies. But they are very different to us. When you

:33:19.:33:26.

going to make up your mind? I am about 60-40. My husband is very

:33:27.:33:30.

opposite and we do debate things. Is that your husband next to you? No.

:33:31.:33:41.

He is at home. OK, thank you very much. All I can say is keep

:33:42.:33:48.

watching. We will be in Hull next week if you want to come and

:33:49.:33:51.

Manchester the week after that. I say that because if you want to make

:33:52.:33:55.

a note, there is the website address and our telephone number. Let's move

:33:56.:34:00.

on, because we will discuss the EU week after week. Let's take this

:34:01.:34:04.

question from Lisa Kelman, please, a medical student. What should Jeremy

:34:05.:34:11.

Hunt do to avoid an all-out strike by junior doctors? Resign.

:34:12.:34:21.

Shall we go on to the next question? Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt

:34:22.:34:33.

is not facing Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt

:34:34.:34:35.

next week situation going to be happening with

:34:36.:34:41.

the all out strike that is going to take place. I believe the time is

:34:42.:34:47.

for the Prime Minister, as I said earlier, who is spending an awful

:34:48.:34:51.

lot of time on the EU business, but actually this is an immediate

:34:52.:34:55.

crisis. I believe the Prime Minister should be taking control of this, he

:34:56.:35:00.

should be insisting that Jeremy Hunt, and personally I would move

:35:01.:35:03.

him and get a new Secretary of State. I think that would be a great

:35:04.:35:08.

addition to making things work, because there is no doubt, and I

:35:09.:35:13.

know from doctors in my constituency how little respect now they have for

:35:14.:35:17.

the Secretary of State for Health. If you have that lack of respect,

:35:18.:35:21.

how can you even start to begin to negotiate? I would say to the Prime

:35:22.:35:25.

Minister, your responsibility, get everybody round the table in Downing

:35:26.:35:28.

Street even if we have to have tea and biscuits or whatever they used

:35:29.:35:34.

to do, and realise this will not be solved by Jeremy Hunt.

:35:35.:35:35.

APPLAUSE One thing that makes no sense to me

:35:36.:35:46.

is how the BMA can say that the new junior doctors' contracts are safe

:35:47.:35:50.

and will put patients at risk and possibly increased death rates or

:35:51.:35:54.

whatever, but then the BMA can organise a strike next week or the

:35:55.:35:58.

week after, where emergency cover isn't going to be covered, if that

:35:59.:36:04.

makes sense. Surely that is going to be just as dangerous as, if the new

:36:05.:36:09.

contract is dangerous, I can't think of the words... Equal danger. Yes.

:36:10.:36:18.

Liam Fox, you were a doctor, what do you make of it? As someone who as a

:36:19.:36:24.

junior doctor in the NHS worked many more hours than junior doctors

:36:25.:36:27.

today, I am glad we got away from where we were then. I can remember

:36:28.:36:34.

doing in obstetrics what is called A1 in two. We had to work the day,

:36:35.:36:38.

the next day and the next night, and the next day and the next night.

:36:39.:36:42.

That was dangerous, and one of the good things about the contract is

:36:43.:36:45.

the reduction in total hours doctors are allowed to work from 91 hours

:36:46.:36:49.

each week, which is still a great number, down to 72. Is that the EU

:36:50.:36:57.

working time directive? No, this is the government's new contract, and I

:36:58.:37:02.

think that is positive. I have a problem with doctors going on strike

:37:03.:37:05.

and the General Medical Council have said it may lead to doctors being

:37:06.:37:08.

potentially struck off if patients were to die as a result of their

:37:09.:37:15.

actions. My personal view is that if we don't allow the police to strike

:37:16.:37:18.

and do not allow the Armed Forces to strike, there is quite a strong

:37:19.:37:22.

argument to say we should not allow doctors to strike and in return we

:37:23.:37:26.

cut them a special deal. What should the Secretary of State do? I think

:37:27.:37:31.

he needs to keep talking. 90% of the contract is already agreed. I think

:37:32.:37:35.

it is wrong for the doctors to go on strike. There is a question here

:37:36.:37:39.

about the seven days. What are we trying to achieve? Is it better

:37:40.:37:44.

seven days emergency cover, or a full seven-day service with elective

:37:45.:37:49.

surgery and all those services running? If that is what we want, it

:37:50.:37:55.

is more than just doctors. If you want a full service you have to have

:37:56.:38:00.

haematologists, radiographers, dieticians all in the time. Someone

:38:01.:38:06.

shouted, you tell us, because you support the government on this. I

:38:07.:38:09.

would like to get to that full seven-day service, because patients

:38:10.:38:14.

do not get ill according to what day of the week it is. That means more

:38:15.:38:19.

money. I think that is right in the long term it requires more money. It

:38:20.:38:24.

requires a change in how we organise our health care. Everyone should

:38:25.:38:28.

take a deep breath, get back into the talks and recognise the one

:38:29.:38:31.

thing that seems to be left out of this, that the most important people

:38:32.:38:34.

in the health service are not the doctors or anyone else but the

:38:35.:38:38.

patients, and the quality of health care patients are getting when they

:38:39.:38:40.

want it and at a level of quality they deserve. You, sir, with the

:38:41.:38:49.

moustache. Easily identifiable. I would like to make an observation.

:38:50.:38:54.

David Cameron used as one of his sound bites to get elected that

:38:55.:38:57.

there will be no top-down restructure of the NHS. And I will

:38:58.:39:03.

cut the deficit, not the NHS. They have totally gone against that, and

:39:04.:39:10.

in terms of doctors going on strike, I served in the Fire Service. I have

:39:11.:39:14.

been on strike. We didn't want to do it, it was a horrible place to be. I

:39:15.:39:18.

think they are being forced into this situation. There is a seven-day

:39:19.:39:25.

NHS at the moment and we have had it for many years. And it was setup in

:39:26.:39:33.

the time of greatest posterity and has served this country well.

:39:34.:39:37.

Nothing is more valuable than health. Hold on, let's come to the

:39:38.:39:43.

point. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? Resign. Resign now. Tim

:39:44.:39:52.

Martin. I think the issue of the health service in Britain suffers

:39:53.:39:55.

mostly because it is a sacred cow and we don't, unlike car

:39:56.:40:00.

manufacturing and many other types of things, we don't much ever

:40:01.:40:08.

compared how it works in France, how it works in New Zealand, in

:40:09.:40:12.

Australia, where I think in many ways they have superior systems.

:40:13.:40:18.

It's very difficult working in the NHS, from people I speak to. It is a

:40:19.:40:22.

top-down runs and I think it needs fundamental reform, and the debate

:40:23.:40:30.

which Liam Fox has said. If you want a health service, and there is

:40:31.:40:34.

really nowhere else to go, I don't think you can go on strike. So what

:40:35.:40:41.

should Jeremy Hunt do? Running my business, I would never impose a new

:40:42.:40:45.

contract on our managers without their agreement first, because it is

:40:46.:40:50.

too confrontational. If you can't get them to agree it, you can't do

:40:51.:40:53.

it. APPLAUSE

:40:54.:40:58.

Leanne Wood. In answer to the question, he should talk to them and

:40:59.:41:05.

he should show them some respect. We have a big problem in the NHS in

:41:06.:41:11.

terms of recruiting doctors. In Wales, we have fewer doctors per

:41:12.:41:14.

head of population than any country in the EU. In fact, there are only

:41:15.:41:23.

three other countries, sorry, in the UK, and only three other countries

:41:24.:41:27.

in the EU with fewer doctors per head of population than we do. We

:41:28.:41:30.

are not having a strike in Wales or Scotland. We take a different

:41:31.:41:36.

approach in Wales and Scotland. I would say to any doctors who are

:41:37.:41:40.

feeling disrespected and unloved by your government, come to Wales. A

:41:41.:41:50.

recruiting Sergeant! Lisa Kelman, who asked the question, what do you

:41:51.:41:55.

think of what you have heard so far? I think Jeremy Hunt should apologise

:41:56.:41:59.

and say, sorry I missed lead the public and caused the hunt effect. I

:42:00.:42:04.

am sorry I have conflated and uncosted mannequin toe with punching

:42:05.:42:10.

junior doctors. I am sorry that I lied this week, saying 500 people

:42:11.:42:14.

have ready sign this contract. No, they haven't. That is what he needs

:42:15.:42:21.

to do. Paddy Ashdown. Tim, I agree with what you said at the end, that

:42:22.:42:26.

if you are going to be a leader, a manager, you really have to bring

:42:27.:42:29.

people with you. I did not agree with you earlier. No need to raise

:42:30.:42:36.

our differences, Paddy! I think we have the best health service in the

:42:37.:42:41.

world and one of the cheapest. I don't Australia is better and I have

:42:42.:42:44.

spent a lot of time there, my family is there. So what should happen now?

:42:45.:42:50.

I think this has become a sort of match over conflict. You can't back

:42:51.:42:55.

down, on both sides. Sensible solutions are being avoided,

:42:56.:43:01.

invaded. So I think it is time, the gentleman at the back said resign,

:43:02.:43:04.

and I think that has most of our support. But I think it is time for

:43:05.:43:08.

the Prime Minister to say it is clear that Jeremy Hunt Keller was

:43:09.:43:13.

all this problem sensibly. Therefore, it probably is time for

:43:14.:43:18.

him to stand aside. -- Jeremy Hunt cannot resolve this sensibly. I

:43:19.:43:25.

don't say that you should not be taking industrial action. You have

:43:26.:43:29.

the public on your side. You are winning this. Be careful about

:43:30.:43:33.

raising the stakes. I see no reason to do that whatsoever. Maintain the

:43:34.:43:39.

pressure as it is, keep the public on your side. If you move up a notch

:43:40.:43:44.

on this and there are some devastating consequences, a tragedy,

:43:45.:43:48.

you will find that that crucial public support, which you need to

:43:49.:43:52.

win this, is going to be lost. My advice is that Jeremy Hunt goes, and

:43:53.:43:56.

if I was a junior doctor I would not ratchet up the pressure.

:43:57.:44:02.

You've just stated that the NHS was brilliant, which it is, and it's the

:44:03.:44:08.

cheapest, and that's nothing to be proud of. Britain is the fifth

:44:09.:44:11.

wealthiest country on the planet. Fair enough. It does not get the

:44:12.:44:16.

funding it deserves. France, Germany and Holland have more funding, more

:44:17.:44:21.

doctors per head per Capita. We are in crisis and the doctors are saying

:44:22.:44:25.

this as well, and we don't work seven days a week full throttle, and

:44:26.:44:29.

that's what we've got to do to accommodate the number of people in

:44:30.:44:34.

this country. Now, I'm a Governor, I kind of know what I'm talking about

:44:35.:44:39.

a bit. Very fair admonishment, best value for money I should have said

:44:40.:44:43.

as well, not the cheapest. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? I

:44:44.:44:50.

don't think doctors are creatures that are political, except for you

:44:51.:44:54.

Mr Fox probably. I think if they are saying something we have got to

:44:55.:44:57.

listen. They are intelligent and dedicated to their jobs, we should

:44:58.:45:00.

be listening. A last point from the woman up there? Liam Fox asked us to

:45:01.:45:07.

put patients first and asked what they would want. I'm a junior doctor

:45:08.:45:12.

and have been for five years and I know from picketing and opinion

:45:13.:45:15.

polls show that Paddy is rite, the public are on our side, they

:45:16.:45:19.

understand. If we had a referendum on this tomorrow, England would vote

:45:20.:45:24.

no to imposition of this contract. Consultants would vote no, the Royal

:45:25.:45:28.

Colleges would vote no, patients would vote no. The NHS belongs to

:45:29.:45:37.

all of us, not Jeremy Hunt. Sorry, let me get a microphone to you? I'm

:45:38.:45:42.

sorry, it's absolute rubbish. I used to work in A and before you do

:45:43.:45:46.

extra hours, you opt in right. With any job now you opt in, there's a

:45:47.:45:52.

scheme, you either opt in or out. They do lots of hours because they

:45:53.:45:58.

push to get more money at weekends. Nobody can force anybody to do over

:45:59.:46:02.

the 50 hours a week. They choose to physically do it. They put the

:46:03.:46:05.

patients at risk themselves, I'm sorry, it's all about money and it's

:46:06.:46:10.

wrong. Anybody who goes AWOL and doesn't turn up for a shift while

:46:11.:46:12.

they are on strike should doesn't turn up for a shift while

:46:13.:46:15.

If you were in the military, you would get arrested for going AWOL.

:46:16.:46:18.

They know the NHS... HECKLING. No, the NHS don't want

:46:19.:46:24.

them going off work. They are technically going AWOL not turning

:46:25.:46:28.

up for their shifts, making people anxious by cancelling appointments,

:46:29.:46:31.

it's their choice. I'm sorry, anybody else in any other job would

:46:32.:46:35.

be sacked for doing that. Shame on them. What do you make of her point?

:46:36.:46:43.

My mother 21 years ago, worked for 21 years in the NHS, she had cancer,

:46:44.:46:49.

she was saved in this very town. People like you, you're a traitor to

:46:50.:46:56.

your profession, you stand behind, you are an affront to medicine, you

:46:57.:47:01.

stand there thinking Jeremy Hunt's got it Allwright here, the guy was a

:47:02.:47:03.

bloody editor on a book got it Allwright here, the guy was a

:47:04.:47:08.

a private NHS, you know, we need to move the funding he said. It's

:47:09.:47:11.

bloody suicide, it's the best thing about this country. You said it's a

:47:12.:47:14.

bit sacred cow. Do you know about this country. You said it's a

:47:15.:47:18.

is, whatever happens to me, any part of this country, I can go to a

:47:19.:47:21.

hospital and you can say what you want it's a Sunday so you are

:47:22.:47:23.

definitely going to want it's a Sunday so you are

:47:24.:47:24.

to be ashamed want it's a Sunday so you are

:47:25.:47:30.

Liam Fox? You have been attacked there and

:47:31.:47:36.

Liam Fox? You have been attacked from the centre saying doctors are

:47:37.:47:41.

the hours anyway? I don't think the doctors are

:47:42.:47:43.

the hours anyway? I don't think the think there is a real problem moving

:47:44.:47:47.

from the system we had to a new one and the fact that we are going from

:47:48.:47:52.

what was a Saturday working was regarded as totally different in

:47:53.:47:57.

terms of structural pay now between seven and five on a Saturday is

:47:58.:48:01.

regarded as part of the working week, there are bonuses if you work

:48:02.:48:08.

more than one in four. Leanne, a point on what she said - you don't

:48:09.:48:15.

just put it in the mixer and there are doctors - you have to attract

:48:16.:48:19.

people into medicine and if we want to attract young people into

:48:20.:48:23.

medicine, we have got to give them very clear rewards and to us why

:48:24.:48:26.

they do it. It's not a job, it's a vocation and sometimes we forget

:48:27.:48:30.

that and we've got a system that, in our view, is too target orientated,

:48:31.:48:35.

bureaucratic and, the only basis on which it's ethical to treat patients

:48:36.:48:38.

is the clinical need of the patients. We've got to get back to a

:48:39.:48:40.

medical system that's much patients. We've got to get back to a

:48:41.:48:46.

responsive to that ethos of medicine and stop worrying about waiting

:48:47.:48:50.

times and worry about the quality of the output for the patient because

:48:51.:48:53.

it's the quality of the care for the patient that brings people into

:48:54.:48:57.

medicine in the first place. If all these other targets for waiting

:48:58.:49:01.

times and so on are put ahead of those things, that is a diminished

:49:02.:49:06.

vocational reward for doctors. Unless people feel like they are

:49:07.:49:07.

being valued for those reasons, Unless people feel like they are

:49:08.:49:13.

people will not be there. If the hours are too long, they are not

:49:14.:49:17.

going to do it. They were long hours when I came in and I was still

:49:18.:49:23.

attracted to the NHS. It's not attractive at the moment, people are

:49:24.:49:26.

off too long sick with stress. These are the kind of issues that have to

:49:27.:49:30.

be addressed if we want to attract good quality doctors into the Health

:49:31.:49:33.

Service and we can do it. New Zealand have done it by

:49:34.:49:38.

incentivising doctors to say in the country after they've qualified by

:49:39.:49:41.

having their tuition fees paid off, so there are ways you can make being

:49:42.:49:46.

a doctor here much more attractive than it is at present. We have under

:49:47.:49:52.

ten minutes and I want to take one more question from Lesley Gillard?

:49:53.:49:57.

Happens to be a student nurse. I don't know if it's an NHS question

:49:58.:50:02.

but let's have your question? As we have a minimum wage, should we

:50:03.:50:07.

introduce a maximum wage? This week, the...

:50:08.:50:08.

LAUGHTER. The minimum wage went up to ?7. 20

:50:09.:50:19.

an hour this week and what perhaps on your mind is Bob Dudley from BP

:50:20.:50:25.

getting a ?14 million pay package. Tim Martin, you are not short of a

:50:26.:50:29.

bob or two? ! Thank you for pointing that out, David! It's a tricky one.

:50:30.:50:38.

I think that people are very fed up with the enormous amounts being

:50:39.:50:42.

earned by Plc companies, that goes without saying. You are grappling

:50:43.:50:46.

with the great difficulty of wanting to attract the best businesses and

:50:47.:50:50.

the biggest businesses to Britain at the same time as finding it

:50:51.:50:54.

repugnant that the very biggest business just about is paying ?14

:50:55.:51:00.

million quid a year so I don't actually know the answer to that.

:51:01.:51:03.

They have remuneration committees and so on, the boards of directors

:51:04.:51:09.

are overseen by non-executive directors who're supposed to control

:51:10.:51:13.

this, but the problem is, the non-executive directors themselves

:51:14.:51:16.

are answering to people paid even more than the guys on board in many

:51:17.:51:20.

respects so it's a tricky one. I think you are going to have to put

:51:21.:51:25.

up with some pretty high pay to attract the biggest companies and if

:51:26.:51:29.

they come here, we get a lot of tax from them so you have to hold your

:51:30.:51:33.

nose and put up with it. What about the role of the shareholders, nearly

:51:34.:51:38.

60% voted against this and the chairman of the company said yes, we

:51:39.:51:41.

hear what you say but we'll in effect make our own decision? There

:51:42.:51:47.

are these votes going around, but they haven't really been effective.

:51:48.:51:51.

Shareholders own the company though, it's capitalism? Listen, I don't

:51:52.:51:57.

know whether you are against the living wage, you don't want to see

:51:58.:52:02.

the living wage? It was introduced by Wetherspoon in effect a year

:52:03.:52:07.

before anyone else, we pay 40% of our profits to people who work in

:52:08.:52:10.

our pubs, which is more than anyone else. I'll answer your question

:52:11.:52:13.

because you have said it three times. I would like an answer. Don't

:52:14.:52:18.

interrupt me so much and I'll give you one. What we've done, it's OK

:52:19.:52:23.

for Wetherspoon to pay a certain amount, I don't think it's going to

:52:24.:52:29.

work in Ashington or Carmarthen or a lot of places where the income

:52:30.:52:35.

levels are very low. If you pitch a very high living wage in order to

:52:36.:52:41.

get elected, this wasn't thought out by the pay commission, the previous

:52:42.:52:44.

coalition had which I thought was very good, this came from George and

:52:45.:52:49.

David after a couple of pints at Chequers saying, how can we get

:52:50.:52:54.

George elected the next time. He doesn't believe in living wages.

:52:55.:53:02.

Leanne Wood? You can't have a minimum wage in Carmarthen because

:53:03.:53:06.

it's too high? I remember the arguments being put when the minimum

:53:07.:53:11.

wage was debated in the 90s. Don't want it to be too high? The argument

:53:12.:53:15.

was businesses would close and people would be laid off and it just

:53:16.:53:22.

didn't happen. Because it was done scientifically Leanne by the Low Pay

:53:23.:53:26.

Commission, not by George and someone else having a couple of

:53:27.:53:30.

pints? The question was about the maximum wage and I think the idea of

:53:31.:53:35.

a maximum wage is a really good one because then you could avoid the

:53:36.:53:39.

situation that we've seen arising in recent years where the top

:53:40.:53:44.

executives of organisations are paying themselves big pay rises

:53:45.:53:48.

where those at the lowest paid end of the organisation have had to have

:53:49.:53:53.

either pay freezes or pay cuts. So if you had a maximum wage and pinned

:53:54.:53:58.

your lowest paid workers to your highest paid workers, then the

:53:59.:54:01.

highest paid workers would think very carefully about how much they

:54:02.:54:05.

give themselves a pay rise because they would have to bring everybody

:54:06.:54:09.

else up at the bottom as well. So yes, from me, yes to the maximum

:54:10.:54:11.

wage. You, Sir? I think instead of a

:54:12.:54:18.

maximum wage, I think it would be bet federal we made the people

:54:19.:54:21.

earning the maximum wages pay their proper taxes which, as you can see,

:54:22.:54:24.

is... APPLAUSE.

:54:25.:54:34.

You, Sir? I'm a business bank manager for small local businesses

:54:35.:54:37.

in Exeter and it's not the companies the size of Tim's that have got a

:54:38.:54:41.

problem, it's the small owner managed businesses having to put up

:54:42.:54:45.

their wages week in week out under pressure from their staff. That's

:54:46.:54:48.

who I'm worried about, not the big businesses. Because of the minimum

:54:49.:54:54.

wage? Because of the minimum wage and the staff expect step-ups as

:54:55.:54:59.

well and it's the business owners taking less money home and earning

:55:00.:55:02.

less profit because it's all going in wages now. Liam Fox? Well, to

:55:03.:55:07.

answer the previous point before that, the chap raised the point

:55:08.:55:11.

about the taxes. The richest 1% now in the UK pay 28% of all income tax

:55:12.:55:15.

which is the highest it's been. Can you answer him because we only have

:55:16.:55:20.

a moment left? I don't agree with a maximum wage. I'm sympathetic to the

:55:21.:55:23.

small businesses because they are the ones who provide more employment

:55:24.:55:28.

in the country tan anything else. I'm all for people making a profit

:55:29.:55:31.

and making a lot of money if that's what they work hard for, people who

:55:32.:55:36.

set up a small business, who grow it, sacrifice, don't have holidays,

:55:37.:55:39.

so that they can get their business going. His point is the minimum wage

:55:40.:55:44.

means other wages are going up? That is the point that's already been

:55:45.:55:47.

made, it's where you set that minimum wage. I'm all for the fact

:55:48.:55:52.

of having a system that there's a floor that no-one would fall below

:55:53.:55:56.

but I have a problem with setting a maximum because those who work hard

:55:57.:56:00.

ought to benefit from it. A big problem is the croney capitalism

:56:01.:56:04.

where bankers get paid huge bonuses when the banks are losing money.

:56:05.:56:09.

It's all very well get ago bonus and getting profit and income when you

:56:10.:56:12.

are generating wealth but you should not be getting the same rewards when

:56:13.:56:18.

you are consuming wealth. So in power shareholding. 60-seconds left.

:56:19.:56:23.

That's what you have to do. Their money is being robbed by those

:56:24.:56:27.

taking excessively high wages and if you give the shareholders the power,

:56:28.:56:31.

then I think you will find this is naturally correct in the interest of

:56:32.:56:36.

the shareholder. Presumably in BP the shareholders don't have the

:56:37.:56:41.

power in the articles? They can set the reel Rail Maritime and Transport

:56:42.:56:43.

Unionration every other year but this was the year in-between -- set

:56:44.:56:51.

the remuneration every other year. I agree with you on that. The public

:56:52.:56:54.

sector has a role to play too because I'm fed up with local

:56:55.:56:58.

authorities paying their Chief Executives and hospitals paying

:56:59.:57:01.

their Chief Executives huge amounts of money. They make the very same

:57:02.:57:05.

argument that you did, Tim, that you don't attract the best person. I

:57:06.:57:09.

remember public service when it was public service and the idea that

:57:10.:57:12.

we'd have to pay more and more to get people to run our local

:57:13.:57:15.

authorities and hospitals I think is wrong. OK. Time's up, I'm sorry.

:57:16.:57:25.

So, join us next week, we are going to be in Hull, Andy Burnham for

:57:26.:57:32.

Labour, Alex Salmond for the SNP among the panelists, it seems.

:57:33.:57:35.

after that, we are in Manchester. There are the addresses on the

:57:36.:57:40.

If you are listening on the website or call the number there:

:57:41.:57:48.

If you are listening on the this glory continues with Question

:57:49.:57:48.

Time extra time. It this glory continues with Question

:57:49.:57:53.

telly, my thanks to our panel, and to all of you who came to take part

:57:54.:57:58.

in this programme in Exeter. Until next Thursday from Question Time,

:57:59.:57:59.

good night.

:58:00.:58:03.

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