21/04/2016 Question Time


21/04/2016

David Dimbleby presents debate from Exeter. On the panel: Liam Fox, Kate Hoey, Lord Ashdown, Leanne Wood and Tim Martin.


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Transcript


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Tonight, we are in Exeter and this is Question Time.

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Good evening and welcome to you, whether you are watching, listening

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on the radio, and to our panel. The Conservative former Defence

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Secretary, Liam Fox. Former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Paddy

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Ashdown. The Labour MP campaigning to leave the European Union, Kate

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Hoey. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the founder and

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chairman of the Wetherspoon chain of pubs, Tim Martin.

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As we go into this hour of debate, remember Facebook, Twitter, all at

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your disposal. Or you can text if you want to take issue with what the

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panel and audience are saying. Our first question from Louise

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Haines. Is it OK for Barack Obama to come to the UK and tell us how to

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vote in the EU referendum? Barack Obama, who arrives today. Liam Fox.

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Well, the president is entitled to be heard. He is our closest ally in

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the world. My problem with this is that what he is talking about for

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Britain is something that America would never except for itself. You

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would never have would never except for itself. You

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accepting a court telling the Supreme Court what to do. They would

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never except an open border with Mexico. You would never expect

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Congress to allow someone else to tell them how to spend money.

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Congress to allow someone else to when you get involved in any one

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else's domestic politics. If there is

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else's domestic politics. If there your national-security, you probably

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need to speak out. But I don't like being told we should accept one

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thing that the Americans wouldn't. My message to President Obama would

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be, can we cope with making My message to President Obama would

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laws? Can we cope with controlling our borders? Can we cope with

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In the past, you have lectured America on what you think they

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should do, haven't you? It is not a question of... You have. And I am

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not head of state. We know that. So it is all right for you? We all have

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opinions but he is dead of state. To come and say to us, you should

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accept something for come and say to us, you should

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Kingdom that we would never except for the United States, I think he

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should pause and think of for the United States, I think he

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message that gives. -- he is the head of state. That is not what he

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is saying. He is saying you should make up your own mind about this.

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Look, 19 and years ago this month, the American president, in 1917,

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Look, 19 and years ago this month, took the decision that American

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troops would be sent to Europe. They were, by the thousand. We would

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probably have lost the First World War had it not been for the

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intervention of America to save our freedom. And they did it again in

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the Second World War. And they did it again in the Cold War. And in

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those three wars, 1.5 million Young American soldiers were killed or

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wounded. What reason is he here? There are 1.5 million reasons.

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America has in the past protected us, defended us at every one of the

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dangerous moments we have faced. If it is the President's view, and it

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is mine too, that the step we are about to take will introduce

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instability into Europe at a time which is exceedingly dangerous, he

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has a right to say that, and he has a right to tell us that this step

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will endanger the safety of both his country and Europe and ourselves.

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Hang on a second, Tim, let me finish. Now, he does come here as a

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head of state of the greatest nation on earth. And our constant friend in

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times of the most difficulty over the last 100 years. We should give

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him a hearing and we should listen. And we should treat him with

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respect. And the one thing we should not do is to do what Kate Hoey did

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the other day, call him a patronising hypocrite. That is bad

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manners and it shames all of us. APPLAUSE

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Kate Hoey ought to be able to answer that. Well, I did not actually call

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him a patronising hypocrite. I said he was hypocritical and he was being

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patronising. LAUGHTER

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You should read it more carefully. I don't think President Obama woke up

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one morning and said with Michelle, we have got to go to London and tell

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the people that they need to stay and vote to stay in the European

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Union. We know why he has come, and it is a very useful time to come and

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have lunch with Her Majesty and that is great and I have no objection to

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him coming to say goodbye. But of course we know he was asked by the

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Prime Minister. David Cameron literally, I believe, not

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necessarily got down on his knees, but pleaded with him to come because

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he needs him, because he knows the campaign has not been going well. Do

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you have a tiny bit of evidence to support that? I know David Cameron

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is spending a lot of time instead of looking after the steel industry and

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other issues that we might come onto in going round the country and going

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round getting every single international figure he can get to

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come along and tell the British people. But the reality in terms of

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the security issue is ridiculous. The Americans have their own

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interest. I know they are our greatest neighbour and friend we

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want to be working with, but they have their own interest. They tried

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to stop us defending the Falklands. They tried to stop us when they

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invaded Grenada, and part of the Commonwealth, they did not come us.

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It is in their interests because they see us in the European Union as

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their spokesperson. If we leave, why would we not still be part of being

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friendly with the United States to with them? Let's hear from you in

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the front row. I wonder whether he is saying what is in America's

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interest, or in our interest. Leanne Wood. Well, I don't remember there

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being a big outcry when President Obama intervened in the Scottish

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referendum debate. I think many Tories welcomed his intervention

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then, telling Scots that Scotland would be better off as part of the

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United Kingdom. So either it is OK for the president of the United

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States to intervene on matters in the UK, or it is not. You cannot

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pick and choose depending on the referendum. But I would say, from a

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Welsh perspective, we have elections to the National Assembly in two

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weeks, and this debate has completely dominated politics for a

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number of weeks now. And the danger for us is that the very important

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issues, the fact that we have had 17 years of age they buy led

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government, they are the establishment in Wales. -- of a

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labour- led government. We are not doing a party political broadcast.

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Well, if it was OK for him to intervene in the Scottish referendum

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campaign, it has to be OK for him to intervene in this one. The man in

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the gallery. To link this back, as Paddy did, to a security issue, the

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reason the Americans can have an opinion on things, surely security

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in Europe has been a Nato programme, and we joined the single market, the

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political project that is Europe in the 1970s. So it is nothing to do

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with the war is and what has happened since the war is. Tim

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Martin. I agree with what you said about Nato. If Barack Obama wants to

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speak out, or Prince Charles wants to speak out, you can't stop them. I

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think it's slightly repugnant the way it does seem to be the great and

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the good. Even the New Zealand Prime Minister has been asked to comment

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on the European Union. So there is quite a lot of interference. I

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utterly disagree with Paddy's analysis of the situation. What has

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made America great, the top military power, fantastically powerful

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economy, perhaps the greatest country in the world, is the fact

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that it is a democracy. And that democracy is enshrined in their

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constitution. And if you look around the world now, it is democratic

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countries which are the most prosperous, and democratic countries

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which have the most freedom. And America is a shining example of

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that. The problem with Europe is that it is removing democracy...

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APPLAUSE And that is the issue. We were

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dealing with Barack Obama's visit. We have a question on Europe coming

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up, so let's go to that and we will just move on. Robin Horne, please.

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Are the Treasury right to use scare tactics in the forthcoming

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referendum? This was the latest announcement by the Treasury saying

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that on average, by 2030, households would have to pay, would lose ?4300

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a year. Paddy, I will come to you but first I want to ask a question

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which has been niggling at me. When we saw you and Neil Kinnock and

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David Cameron on those telephones this week, who were you actually

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talking to? We were talking to help others on the Remain campaign. You

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were not calling people? No, we were bringing them to say thank you. --

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we were ringing them. I had just discovered three Lib Dems in a row.

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The third one said, can I speak to the Prime Minister to persuade him

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to vote Lib Dem, so I handed it to the Prime Minister. The question

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was, look, I think the Treasury was right. This is well founded, and the

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Financial Times said so, too. I will concede that both sides will no

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doubt massaging arguments in favour and the figure is a bit. They always

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do it and they are probably doing it now. So I invite you not to listen

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to the Treasury. Really? David, you must let me finish. I want you to

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listen instead to the Independent, accepted, respected international

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bodies, who have warned us of the dangers and costs to ourselves and

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the global economy and the European economy of doing a step that would

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take us out of Europe. And the Out campaign say, no, they are wrong.

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They don't explain why they are wrong, they just say they are wrong,

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as if saying it makes it so. So the IMF was wrong, the OECD was wrong,

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the World Trade Organisation was wrong. The G-7 Finance

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the World Trade Organisation was said that were wrong.

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the World Trade Organisation was England governor was wrong. Everyone

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is wrong, except for them. Rubbish. England governor was wrong. Everyone

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Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I am going to set a challenge

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Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I will be interesting. Can they offer

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the name of a will be interesting. Can they offer

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world economy, just as we are coming out of recession and about to be

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plunged back into it? That is what they are saying. Are they wrong? On

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the question, on the Treasury, they are saying. Are they wrong? On

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be frank and honest, all politicians will use negative campaigning at

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some point if it suits them. But if you are going to do it, at least you

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have to be decent about doing it. The thing about the Treasury report

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was that it was cringingly inept. I was embarrassed that it came out of

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the Treasury which I helped get elected, and I think Gordon Brown

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would have blushed at the elected, and I think Gordon Brown

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particular report. Since Paddy wants an explanation, they invented this

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particular report. Since Paddy wants statistic, GDP per household, never

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used anywhere else in government, never used in the Budget, never used

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anywhere else. According have GDP per household of ?68,000.

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2030, they are talking about. What they said was that although the

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economy would continue to grow, whether inside or outside the

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European Union, they believed it would grow slightly more slowly

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outside the European Union. they said, if you make the

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assumption they said, if you make the

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migrants coming in, you end up with this number of 4300. Hang on a

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second. In order for George Osborne to be right, we have to have no

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trade deals outside the European Union, have 3 million migrants,

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which blows apart the Conservative election pledges. And they have to

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be right in their predictions for 60 consecutive quarters. Remember,

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today we got the number that we did not get the number correct from our

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prediction in October last year. So this seems to be a lot for us to

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swallow. Frankly, it was an incredible assessment.

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APPLAUSE Can you, or maybe Kate, can pick up

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on the point Paddy made, which is there are a whole host of these

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reports and the Institute for Fiscal Studies says they are mostly in the

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same direction. Kate was asked if she could name a reputable

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institution. I've got one. The CBI actually commissioned the PWC, Price

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Waterhouse Cooper. They did a report which said yes, of course, when we

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leave immediately, there'll be some uncertainty, but, as the months go

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on, growth will grow, and it is very, very clear that there are

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other independent reports, Capital Economics, the Tosca fund, I don't

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know the details because fundamentally to me, yes, the

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economics is very important and we are going to get all the different

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views and there'll be scare stories. For me, the most important thing

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about why I want people to leave is because I genuinely believe that

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we've lost control of our borders and immigration system but, more

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importantly, we are not an independent country any more. We are

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not. And that is to me the most important thing.

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APPLAUSE Members of audience. The man in the

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checked shirt? I did some maths on the back of an envelope as well. I'm

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an economist and financial adviser and I took the ?10 billion of net

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savings that we'd make if we left Europe and I multiplied those by 14

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which is the number of years up to 2030. I then used the economic

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credit multiplier because you have the benefit of spending that ?10

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billion, the taxes raised on it and the growth and so on. The figure I

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came out with was ?1.5 trillion which means if we leave the European

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Union we'll be able to fund and repay the national debt.

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CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. .

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You should be in the Treasury. Kate Hoey thinks you should be in the

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Treasury. You were asked to name one of the international accredited

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institutions. I wasn't tonight. You have named none of them so far, so

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it would be interesting to see... They all got it wrong on the euro

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panel, you know that. Hang on a second. OK, fine, I accept, they

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could all be wrong. These guys could be right. Are you going to bet the

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whole country on that possibility? If you are, that is fine. If you are

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going to get the whole country on a pious hope, rather than serious

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studies from the international institutions that are respected

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around the world, then you are right to vote Brexit. Now, can I answer

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the question? No, the man over there first, you can come back. Does Liam

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Fox not feel embarrassed at working for a Government that he can't

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support? I mean, they are so inept, he's just said so. The Government is

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so inept? Yes. I said the report was inept, not the Government. I think

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that... The Chancellor... We have different views. We are not going to

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be identical politicians, the public don't want that. What I would say to

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Paddy... No, no, no, you said the Chancellor was inept. I didn't say

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the Government was inept. You said the Chancellor was. I said the

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report was. You didn't say the Chancellor was? No, I said it was

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cringing. Does it embarrass you? To Paddy's point on the IMF... Never

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mind Paddy. Every single one, not just the IMF, the OECD, the Governor

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More of the economics, all of themment. They all said you should

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join the euro, the Bank of England said it would be good for the

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European Union for us to join. Thank goodness we didn't. I'll go around

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the table. The woman up there first in the second row from the back?

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How do you think the Government will be able to guarantee income for

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farmers if we left the European Union? They get so much of their

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income, 55% of their income in 2015 came from being linked with the

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European Union direct payments. How would the Government be able to

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guarantee that? Leanne Wood, you have farmers in Wales that benefit

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from that? I'm really glad use raised that question. We have

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farmers scratching a living on hillsides trying very hard to make

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those businesses a success and I'm very concerned about what will

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happen to those because I have no faith in Westminster whoever is in

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Government to redistribute that wealth in a fair way. They don't

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have a good record on that. So you trust the Europeans better than

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Westminster on this? They are doing that now, there is an element of

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redistribution. But you think a Westminster Government would pull

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back on that if Brexit came about? My party has been campaigning for

:19:56.:19:59.

years with parity. We have had no success in terms of sorting out our

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financial situation. Can I just respond to this point about

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information and figures and the way in which this information is put

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out. People are desperate for accurate information, for facts.

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This is a difficult decision and people want to make an informed

:20:16.:20:20.

decision based on the correct information. The way that figures

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are being banded about, economic forecasts, way into the future, are

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impossible to predict. Today, it's not just the one side, it's the

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Brexit supporters as well. We had the head of the Office for National

:20:36.:20:41.

Statistics who's questioned the figure of ?350 million that's been

:20:42.:20:46.

used saying that that's how much it costs us to remain a member of the

:20:47.:20:49.

EU. There are questions on both sides and what people want now, in

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order to make that informed choice on this very important question, is

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to have facts. The problem with facts, Leanne, they can be interpred

:20:58.:21:01.

differently. If I hold up this glass of water in my right hand it's half

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full, if I move it to my left hand, it's half empty. You know, just on

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the farming aspect though, 40% of the money we give into the EU goes

:21:11.:21:14.

to subsidising farmers all over the EU. We are subsidising French

:21:15.:21:20.

farmers, far, far more than our farmers are getting. Before we

:21:21.:21:25.

joined the Common Market, farmers got subsidies.

:21:26.:21:35.

Tim Martin? The farming and agricultural minister, George

:21:36.:21:38.

Eustace, has said that the farming community will continue to be

:21:39.:21:42.

supported to the same level it is within the EU. There is no real EU

:21:43.:21:50.

money. We send money out to the EU and it then comes back to support

:21:51.:21:56.

farmers with strings attached. It's not a very efficient way of running.

:21:57.:22:03.

Why did the NFU vote to remain then? They represent them? Maybe they

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don't believe George Eustace, I but I do. Liam Fox? Paddy Ashdown? In

:22:09.:22:19.

terms of facts, Leanne is right, ?350 million they have been talking

:22:20.:22:23.

about, actually that was checked and on the report announced today by Sir

:22:24.:22:28.

Andrew Dilnot in the UK statisticical agency whose job it is

:22:29.:22:33.

to provide statistics are accurate, says that ?350 million is totally

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inaccurate. He says it's misleading. The actual figure we give to Europe

:22:40.:22:43.

after taking account of the rebates that come back is about ?7.

:22:44.:22:48.

after taking account of the rebates billion, 30p per person per day in

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Britain. I would like to address our economist friend over

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Britain. I would like to address our take that as ?7 billion or ?8

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billion that we pay into the European Union. If we leave, the

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likelihood, you can already see the pound dropping, you are already

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beginning to see Britain's credit rating being held in question by

:23:09.:23:15.

Standard Poor. If I think it's the case, which is likely, that an exit

:23:16.:23:21.

leads to one quarter of one percent on increase in interest rates on

:23:22.:23:27.

mountain of debt, that ?7 billion is swallowed up the day after many,

:23:28.:23:31.

many times over, leaving aside text true cost of ?23 billion. -- the

:23:32.:23:41.

extra cost of ?23 billion in tariffs that is going to be loaded on the

:23:42.:23:43.

cost of British goods and that is going to be loaded on the

:23:44.:23:50.

which shall be paid for, not by your money, but in lost jobs and

:23:51.:23:53.

which shall be paid for, not by your businesses. This doesn't sound to me

:23:54.:23:54.

like a good deal. We did say we shouldn't take too

:23:55.:23:59.

much account of the figures being banded

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much account of the figures being it's the national statisticical

:24:07.:24:07.

agency designed to be able to ensure that figures are correct who

:24:08.:24:10.

criticise the ?350 million, the audience should know that. In

:24:11.:24:14.

terms of farming, to go the audience should know that. In

:24:15.:24:19.

will determine whether we get a the audience should know that. In

:24:20.:24:23.

deal or not, is what is in our mutual interest. We actually import

:24:24.:24:30.

the figure that year was ?19.4 billion worth of agricultural goods

:24:31.:24:32.

from Europe more than we sell to them. It's actually in their

:24:33.:24:36.

interests, even more than ours, to get a Free Trade Agreement,

:24:37.:24:40.

including on agricultural goods. The MFU report actually said, if we

:24:41.:24:47.

assume we have a free trade deal and continue subsidies at the level we

:24:48.:24:53.

do now and I don't know any party proposing anything else, all

:24:54.:24:54.

agricultural sectors proposing anything else, all

:24:55.:24:58.

It doesn't do any good to scare people into thinking the benefits

:24:59.:25:03.

will be less. You, Sir, in the blue suit?

:25:04.:25:10.

will be less. one of the things you asked Kate

:25:11.:25:17.

about earlier was evidence and you are banding around figures that

:25:18.:25:20.

didn't protect the recession and how good or bad the recovery would be.

:25:21.:25:25.

It's not good enough. You with the spectacles in front of him? In the

:25:26.:25:30.

short-term, we see that maybe there'll be a struggle before we can

:25:31.:25:33.

actually negotiate all of these free trade deals. Maybe in the long run

:25:34.:25:36.

you can make the case that it's better to exit but in the short-term

:25:37.:25:41.

there'll be significant pain. More members of audience. You, Sir? Yes.

:25:42.:25:46.

I wonder if at the end of the day, the figures are going to be what

:25:47.:25:50.

people make their decision around. It's very difficult to feel that you

:25:51.:25:53.

can believe any particular set of figures so much that you can rely on

:25:54.:25:56.

them. I believe people will vote on how they feel about the EU and

:25:57.:26:00.

nothing else. APPLAUSE

:26:01.:26:04.

You, Sir? The point I would like to make is, it's all a mess. I have

:26:05.:26:11.

more confidence that we can sort out our own mess and that mess can be

:26:12.:26:14.

sorted out in Brussels. This whole debate is really, and I know Paddy

:26:15.:26:18.

doesn't like me using this word, but it's the establishment who're lining

:26:19.:26:24.

up and uniting against ordinary people who want to have a say for

:26:25.:26:32.

the first time in 40 years. Why does that... Sorry, if it is the

:26:33.:26:37.

establishment... Why is Boris in it? I how come you are one of only seven

:26:38.:26:43.

Labour MPs? No, 12. Going for Brexit. Is the Labour Party the

:26:44.:26:46.

establishment? Is Jeremy Corbyn the establishment? Well, of course,

:26:47.:26:51.

Jeremy's position on the EU is very interesting because, of course,

:26:52.:26:55.

Jeremy was in every single lobby with myself and others right through

:26:56.:26:59.

the last 20 years. But Jeremy is now leader of the party, he wants to

:27:00.:27:03.

keep the party together, he doesn't want to be seeing the divisions that

:27:04.:27:06.

perhaps there are in the Conservatives. And he doesn't want

:27:07.:27:11.

to come on the same side as you, Kate, does he? He actually has a

:27:12.:27:17.

very different view which I support, of what should happen in the EU. I

:27:18.:27:22.

don't believe it will ever reform and therefore I think there's no

:27:23.:27:25.

point in staying in. We are half way through the

:27:26.:27:28.

programme now. More questions. You, madam? Why does everything have to

:27:29.:27:34.

be about the bottom line? Why? Do we not have some vision here? Some

:27:35.:27:39.

leadership? Why are we retreating into petty nationalism? Why do we

:27:40.:27:44.

not want to work with our European friends and neighbour to reform a

:27:45.:27:47.

deeply flawed institution, but to make it better?

:27:48.:27:55.

APPLAUSE I think it's very important to understand that the Europeans are

:27:56.:28:03.

our friends and what's important for them, as important for us, and it's

:28:04.:28:08.

been shown to be the greatest protection against autocrats and

:28:09.:28:13.

war, is that they regain control of their own democracy. And that's what

:28:14.:28:19.

will protect us in the future, so it isn't being a Little Britain to want

:28:20.:28:25.

to have democracy, it's slowly being eroded and that's very dangerous. Is

:28:26.:28:30.

it really a friendly gesture? Let her come back and then Paddy you can

:28:31.:28:35.

reply? Is it really a friendly gesture to throw your toys out of

:28:36.:28:38.

the pram and say you are not going to play any more because it doesn't

:28:39.:28:40.

suit you? We are not doing that. She is right, the great British

:28:41.:28:54.

tradition is to getting gauged. But you are also entirely right in

:28:55.:28:57.

saying this is not just about economics. -- to get engaged. Liam

:28:58.:29:05.

said it was due to Nato that we are at peace. Well, every single one of

:29:06.:29:11.

our Nato allies, and there is no exception, is saying, please do not

:29:12.:29:14.

leave Europe, Nato will be weaker in consequence. Every one of our

:29:15.:29:19.

European allies is saying the same thing. Every one of our Commonwealth

:29:20.:29:24.

allies is saying the same thing. Only one man in our neighbourhood

:29:25.:29:27.

wants us to leave and begin to break up the European Union and you know

:29:28.:29:34.

his name. It is Vladimir Putin. His strategy for the last 30 years has

:29:35.:29:38.

been to divide Europe, to use energy, to use tanks to capture

:29:39.:29:44.

European territory. If you move now to break up the European Union, then

:29:45.:29:48.

I can tell you the one person who will cheer is not a single one of

:29:49.:29:53.

our allies or our friends, but the Russian leader. Vote Brexit, it is

:29:54.:30:04.

what Putin wants you to do. Liam Fox is a former Defence Secretary. What

:30:05.:30:09.

do you make of that? I think it is nonsensical. Paddy, allow him to

:30:10.:30:18.

answer, please. We were in the EU when he annexed Crimea. We were in

:30:19.:30:23.

the EU when he invaded Georgia. It did not seem to dissuade him from

:30:24.:30:27.

those actions. I think that is a ridiculous argument. I want to take

:30:28.:30:32.

up the point the gentleman right at the back made, with the grey hair,

:30:33.:30:36.

if you don't mind me saying that. I do agree. I think this is much more

:30:37.:30:43.

than just about money. And for me and for many people this is about

:30:44.:30:47.

being a self-governing democracy, able to make our own laws, control

:30:48.:30:52.

our borders and control our own money, and to escape from the

:30:53.:30:58.

financial quicksand of the euro. Because the more that the euro drags

:30:59.:31:01.

down the European economy, and I'm not sure people understand this, and

:31:02.:31:07.

the more our economy is successful, the bigger our contribution to the

:31:08.:31:11.

European Union gets. We end up funding a project we stayed out of

:31:12.:31:15.

because we correctly predicted it would fail. Can I ask a very simple

:31:16.:31:19.

question to which there is isn't what answer? Name me one Nato leader

:31:20.:31:25.

of one of our partners in Nato who agrees that Brexit is a good idea

:31:26.:31:31.

for our common security? Just one. Many of them are in the European

:31:32.:31:35.

Union because we give them free British money. Of course they will

:31:36.:31:40.

want us to stay. So you can't name one of our friends who agrees with

:31:41.:31:44.

you. That is the answer. We have to move on. Do you want a last word,

:31:45.:31:54.

Madam? I don't remember a time when we were not part of the common

:31:55.:31:59.

market. I want more information. Facts and figures can be interpreted

:32:00.:32:02.

in different ways but I want to know what is going to happen. I don't

:32:03.:32:06.

know what will happen if we come out. I am on the fence. I know which

:32:07.:32:10.

side I prefer but I am torn and I get bombarded with information.

:32:11.:32:15.

Facts and figures are bombarded. What is going to happen to us? Does

:32:16.:32:22.

this kind of discussion help you? This is a dangerous question to ask.

:32:23.:32:29.

Or does it make it worse? Oui unfortunately, it doesn't. Getting

:32:30.:32:32.

facts and figures, the gentleman in front of me is probably very clever

:32:33.:32:35.

at economics and his maths is probably very good, but he said he

:32:36.:32:40.

wrote it on the back of envelope. We know what is going to happen. How

:32:41.:32:46.

will you make up your mind if you have this and you are bombarded with

:32:47.:32:50.

all this? I'm concerned about immigration, but I also want this

:32:51.:32:55.

country to grow. I want money, investment and jobs for people in

:32:56.:32:58.

this area but I live in an area where farmers need support. We do

:32:59.:33:04.

get money from the EU. It is our money. I know it is our money. I am

:33:05.:33:11.

very torn. The first thing to do is to look at Australia, New Zealand,

:33:12.:33:15.

Canada, the United States, Singapore, countries which are

:33:16.:33:18.

independent democracies. But they are very different to us. When you

:33:19.:33:26.

going to make up your mind? I am about 60-40. My husband is very

:33:27.:33:30.

opposite and we do debate things. Is that your husband next to you? No.

:33:31.:33:41.

He is at home. OK, thank you very much. All I can say is keep

:33:42.:33:48.

watching. We will be in Hull next week if you want to come and

:33:49.:33:51.

Manchester the week after that. I say that because if you want to make

:33:52.:33:55.

a note, there is the website address and our telephone number. Let's move

:33:56.:34:00.

on, because we will discuss the EU week after week. Let's take this

:34:01.:34:04.

question from Lisa Kelman, please, a medical student. What should Jeremy

:34:05.:34:11.

Hunt do to avoid an all-out strike by junior doctors? Resign.

:34:12.:34:21.

Shall we go on to the next question? Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt

:34:22.:34:33.

is not facing Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt

:34:34.:34:35.

next week situation going to be happening with

:34:36.:34:41.

the all out strike that is going to take place. I believe the time is

:34:42.:34:47.

for the Prime Minister, as I said earlier, who is spending an awful

:34:48.:34:51.

lot of time on the EU business, but actually this is an immediate

:34:52.:34:55.

crisis. I believe the Prime Minister should be taking control of this, he

:34:56.:35:00.

should be insisting that Jeremy Hunt, and personally I would move

:35:01.:35:03.

him and get a new Secretary of State. I think that would be a great

:35:04.:35:08.

addition to making things work, because there is no doubt, and I

:35:09.:35:13.

know from doctors in my constituency how little respect now they have for

:35:14.:35:17.

the Secretary of State for Health. If you have that lack of respect,

:35:18.:35:21.

how can you even start to begin to negotiate? I would say to the Prime

:35:22.:35:25.

Minister, your responsibility, get everybody round the table in Downing

:35:26.:35:28.

Street even if we have to have tea and biscuits or whatever they used

:35:29.:35:34.

to do, and realise this will not be solved by Jeremy Hunt.

:35:35.:35:35.

APPLAUSE One thing that makes no sense to me

:35:36.:35:46.

is how the BMA can say that the new junior doctors' contracts are safe

:35:47.:35:50.

and will put patients at risk and possibly increased death rates or

:35:51.:35:54.

whatever, but then the BMA can organise a strike next week or the

:35:55.:35:58.

week after, where emergency cover isn't going to be covered, if that

:35:59.:36:04.

makes sense. Surely that is going to be just as dangerous as, if the new

:36:05.:36:09.

contract is dangerous, I can't think of the words... Equal danger. Yes.

:36:10.:36:18.

Liam Fox, you were a doctor, what do you make of it? As someone who as a

:36:19.:36:24.

junior doctor in the NHS worked many more hours than junior doctors

:36:25.:36:27.

today, I am glad we got away from where we were then. I can remember

:36:28.:36:34.

doing in obstetrics what is called A1 in two. We had to work the day,

:36:35.:36:38.

the next day and the next night, and the next day and the next night.

:36:39.:36:42.

That was dangerous, and one of the good things about the contract is

:36:43.:36:45.

the reduction in total hours doctors are allowed to work from 91 hours

:36:46.:36:49.

each week, which is still a great number, down to 72. Is that the EU

:36:50.:36:57.

working time directive? No, this is the government's new contract, and I

:36:58.:37:02.

think that is positive. I have a problem with doctors going on strike

:37:03.:37:05.

and the General Medical Council have said it may lead to doctors being

:37:06.:37:08.

potentially struck off if patients were to die as a result of their

:37:09.:37:15.

actions. My personal view is that if we don't allow the police to strike

:37:16.:37:18.

and do not allow the Armed Forces to strike, there is quite a strong

:37:19.:37:22.

argument to say we should not allow doctors to strike and in return we

:37:23.:37:26.

cut them a special deal. What should the Secretary of State do? I think

:37:27.:37:31.

he needs to keep talking. 90% of the contract is already agreed. I think

:37:32.:37:35.

it is wrong for the doctors to go on strike. There is a question here

:37:36.:37:39.

about the seven days. What are we trying to achieve? Is it better

:37:40.:37:44.

seven days emergency cover, or a full seven-day service with elective

:37:45.:37:49.

surgery and all those services running? If that is what we want, it

:37:50.:37:55.

is more than just doctors. If you want a full service you have to have

:37:56.:38:00.

haematologists, radiographers, dieticians all in the time. Someone

:38:01.:38:06.

shouted, you tell us, because you support the government on this. I

:38:07.:38:09.

would like to get to that full seven-day service, because patients

:38:10.:38:14.

do not get ill according to what day of the week it is. That means more

:38:15.:38:19.

money. I think that is right in the long term it requires more money. It

:38:20.:38:24.

requires a change in how we organise our health care. Everyone should

:38:25.:38:28.

take a deep breath, get back into the talks and recognise the one

:38:29.:38:31.

thing that seems to be left out of this, that the most important people

:38:32.:38:34.

in the health service are not the doctors or anyone else but the

:38:35.:38:38.

patients, and the quality of health care patients are getting when they

:38:39.:38:40.

want it and at a level of quality they deserve. You, sir, with the

:38:41.:38:49.

moustache. Easily identifiable. I would like to make an observation.

:38:50.:38:54.

David Cameron used as one of his sound bites to get elected that

:38:55.:38:57.

there will be no top-down restructure of the NHS. And I will

:38:58.:39:03.

cut the deficit, not the NHS. They have totally gone against that, and

:39:04.:39:10.

in terms of doctors going on strike, I served in the Fire Service. I have

:39:11.:39:14.

been on strike. We didn't want to do it, it was a horrible place to be. I

:39:15.:39:18.

think they are being forced into this situation. There is a seven-day

:39:19.:39:25.

NHS at the moment and we have had it for many years. And it was setup in

:39:26.:39:33.

the time of greatest posterity and has served this country well.

:39:34.:39:37.

Nothing is more valuable than health. Hold on, let's come to the

:39:38.:39:43.

point. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? Resign. Resign now. Tim

:39:44.:39:52.

Martin. I think the issue of the health service in Britain suffers

:39:53.:39:55.

mostly because it is a sacred cow and we don't, unlike car

:39:56.:40:00.

manufacturing and many other types of things, we don't much ever

:40:01.:40:08.

compared how it works in France, how it works in New Zealand, in

:40:09.:40:12.

Australia, where I think in many ways they have superior systems.

:40:13.:40:18.

It's very difficult working in the NHS, from people I speak to. It is a

:40:19.:40:22.

top-down runs and I think it needs fundamental reform, and the debate

:40:23.:40:30.

which Liam Fox has said. If you want a health service, and there is

:40:31.:40:34.

really nowhere else to go, I don't think you can go on strike. So what

:40:35.:40:41.

should Jeremy Hunt do? Running my business, I would never impose a new

:40:42.:40:45.

contract on our managers without their agreement first, because it is

:40:46.:40:50.

too confrontational. If you can't get them to agree it, you can't do

:40:51.:40:53.

it. APPLAUSE

:40:54.:40:58.

Leanne Wood. In answer to the question, he should talk to them and

:40:59.:41:05.

he should show them some respect. We have a big problem in the NHS in

:41:06.:41:11.

terms of recruiting doctors. In Wales, we have fewer doctors per

:41:12.:41:14.

head of population than any country in the EU. In fact, there are only

:41:15.:41:23.

three other countries, sorry, in the UK, and only three other countries

:41:24.:41:27.

in the EU with fewer doctors per head of population than we do. We

:41:28.:41:30.

are not having a strike in Wales or Scotland. We take a different

:41:31.:41:36.

approach in Wales and Scotland. I would say to any doctors who are

:41:37.:41:40.

feeling disrespected and unloved by your government, come to Wales. A

:41:41.:41:50.

recruiting Sergeant! Lisa Kelman, who asked the question, what do you

:41:51.:41:55.

think of what you have heard so far? I think Jeremy Hunt should apologise

:41:56.:41:59.

and say, sorry I missed lead the public and caused the hunt effect. I

:42:00.:42:04.

am sorry I have conflated and uncosted mannequin toe with punching

:42:05.:42:10.

junior doctors. I am sorry that I lied this week, saying 500 people

:42:11.:42:14.

have ready sign this contract. No, they haven't. That is what he needs

:42:15.:42:21.

to do. Paddy Ashdown. Tim, I agree with what you said at the end, that

:42:22.:42:26.

if you are going to be a leader, a manager, you really have to bring

:42:27.:42:29.

people with you. I did not agree with you earlier. No need to raise

:42:30.:42:36.

our differences, Paddy! I think we have the best health service in the

:42:37.:42:41.

world and one of the cheapest. I don't Australia is better and I have

:42:42.:42:44.

spent a lot of time there, my family is there. So what should happen now?

:42:45.:42:50.

I think this has become a sort of match over conflict. You can't back

:42:51.:42:55.

down, on both sides. Sensible solutions are being avoided,

:42:56.:43:01.

invaded. So I think it is time, the gentleman at the back said resign,

:43:02.:43:04.

and I think that has most of our support. But I think it is time for

:43:05.:43:08.

the Prime Minister to say it is clear that Jeremy Hunt Keller was

:43:09.:43:13.

all this problem sensibly. Therefore, it probably is time for

:43:14.:43:18.

him to stand aside. -- Jeremy Hunt cannot resolve this sensibly. I

:43:19.:43:25.

don't say that you should not be taking industrial action. You have

:43:26.:43:29.

the public on your side. You are winning this. Be careful about

:43:30.:43:33.

raising the stakes. I see no reason to do that whatsoever. Maintain the

:43:34.:43:39.

pressure as it is, keep the public on your side. If you move up a notch

:43:40.:43:44.

on this and there are some devastating consequences, a tragedy,

:43:45.:43:48.

you will find that that crucial public support, which you need to

:43:49.:43:52.

win this, is going to be lost. My advice is that Jeremy Hunt goes, and

:43:53.:43:56.

if I was a junior doctor I would not ratchet up the pressure.

:43:57.:44:02.

You've just stated that the NHS was brilliant, which it is, and it's the

:44:03.:44:08.

cheapest, and that's nothing to be proud of. Britain is the fifth

:44:09.:44:11.

wealthiest country on the planet. Fair enough. It does not get the

:44:12.:44:16.

funding it deserves. France, Germany and Holland have more funding, more

:44:17.:44:21.

doctors per head per Capita. We are in crisis and the doctors are saying

:44:22.:44:25.

this as well, and we don't work seven days a week full throttle, and

:44:26.:44:29.

that's what we've got to do to accommodate the number of people in

:44:30.:44:34.

this country. Now, I'm a Governor, I kind of know what I'm talking about

:44:35.:44:39.

a bit. Very fair admonishment, best value for money I should have said

:44:40.:44:43.

as well, not the cheapest. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? I

:44:44.:44:50.

don't think doctors are creatures that are political, except for you

:44:51.:44:54.

Mr Fox probably. I think if they are saying something we have got to

:44:55.:44:57.

listen. They are intelligent and dedicated to their jobs, we should

:44:58.:45:00.

be listening. A last point from the woman up there? Liam Fox asked us to

:45:01.:45:07.

put patients first and asked what they would want. I'm a junior doctor

:45:08.:45:12.

and have been for five years and I know from picketing and opinion

:45:13.:45:15.

polls show that Paddy is rite, the public are on our side, they

:45:16.:45:19.

understand. If we had a referendum on this tomorrow, England would vote

:45:20.:45:24.

no to imposition of this contract. Consultants would vote no, the Royal

:45:25.:45:28.

Colleges would vote no, patients would vote no. The NHS belongs to

:45:29.:45:37.

all of us, not Jeremy Hunt. Sorry, let me get a microphone to you? I'm

:45:38.:45:42.

sorry, it's absolute rubbish. I used to work in A and before you do

:45:43.:45:46.

extra hours, you opt in right. With any job now you opt in, there's a

:45:47.:45:52.

scheme, you either opt in or out. They do lots of hours because they

:45:53.:45:58.

push to get more money at weekends. Nobody can force anybody to do over

:45:59.:46:02.

the 50 hours a week. They choose to physically do it. They put the

:46:03.:46:05.

patients at risk themselves, I'm sorry, it's all about money and it's

:46:06.:46:10.

wrong. Anybody who goes AWOL and doesn't turn up for a shift while

:46:11.:46:12.

they are on strike should doesn't turn up for a shift while

:46:13.:46:15.

If you were in the military, you would get arrested for going AWOL.

:46:16.:46:18.

They know the NHS... HECKLING. No, the NHS don't want

:46:19.:46:24.

them going off work. They are technically going AWOL not turning

:46:25.:46:28.

up for their shifts, making people anxious by cancelling appointments,

:46:29.:46:31.

it's their choice. I'm sorry, anybody else in any other job would

:46:32.:46:35.

be sacked for doing that. Shame on them. What do you make of her point?

:46:36.:46:43.

My mother 21 years ago, worked for 21 years in the NHS, she had cancer,

:46:44.:46:49.

she was saved in this very town. People like you, you're a traitor to

:46:50.:46:56.

your profession, you stand behind, you are an affront to medicine, you

:46:57.:47:01.

stand there thinking Jeremy Hunt's got it Allwright here, the guy was a

:47:02.:47:03.

bloody editor on a book got it Allwright here, the guy was a

:47:04.:47:08.

a private NHS, you know, we need to move the funding he said. It's

:47:09.:47:11.

bloody suicide, it's the best thing about this country. You said it's a

:47:12.:47:14.

bit sacred cow. Do you know about this country. You said it's a

:47:15.:47:18.

is, whatever happens to me, any part of this country, I can go to a

:47:19.:47:21.

hospital and you can say what you want it's a Sunday so you are

:47:22.:47:23.

definitely going to want it's a Sunday so you are

:47:24.:47:24.

to be ashamed want it's a Sunday so you are

:47:25.:47:30.

Liam Fox? You have been attacked there and

:47:31.:47:36.

Liam Fox? You have been attacked from the centre saying doctors are

:47:37.:47:41.

the hours anyway? I don't think the doctors are

:47:42.:47:43.

the hours anyway? I don't think the think there is a real problem moving

:47:44.:47:47.

from the system we had to a new one and the fact that we are going from

:47:48.:47:52.

what was a Saturday working was regarded as totally different in

:47:53.:47:57.

terms of structural pay now between seven and five on a Saturday is

:47:58.:48:01.

regarded as part of the working week, there are bonuses if you work

:48:02.:48:08.

more than one in four. Leanne, a point on what she said - you don't

:48:09.:48:15.

just put it in the mixer and there are doctors - you have to attract

:48:16.:48:19.

people into medicine and if we want to attract young people into

:48:20.:48:23.

medicine, we have got to give them very clear rewards and to us why

:48:24.:48:26.

they do it. It's not a job, it's a vocation and sometimes we forget

:48:27.:48:30.

that and we've got a system that, in our view, is too target orientated,

:48:31.:48:35.

bureaucratic and, the only basis on which it's ethical to treat patients

:48:36.:48:38.

is the clinical need of the patients. We've got to get back to a

:48:39.:48:40.

medical system that's much patients. We've got to get back to a

:48:41.:48:46.

responsive to that ethos of medicine and stop worrying about waiting

:48:47.:48:50.

times and worry about the quality of the output for the patient because

:48:51.:48:53.

it's the quality of the care for the patient that brings people into

:48:54.:48:57.

medicine in the first place. If all these other targets for waiting

:48:58.:49:01.

times and so on are put ahead of those things, that is a diminished

:49:02.:49:06.

vocational reward for doctors. Unless people feel like they are

:49:07.:49:07.

being valued for those reasons, Unless people feel like they are

:49:08.:49:13.

people will not be there. If the hours are too long, they are not

:49:14.:49:17.

going to do it. They were long hours when I came in and I was still

:49:18.:49:23.

attracted to the NHS. It's not attractive at the moment, people are

:49:24.:49:26.

off too long sick with stress. These are the kind of issues that have to

:49:27.:49:30.

be addressed if we want to attract good quality doctors into the Health

:49:31.:49:33.

Service and we can do it. New Zealand have done it by

:49:34.:49:38.

incentivising doctors to say in the country after they've qualified by

:49:39.:49:41.

having their tuition fees paid off, so there are ways you can make being

:49:42.:49:46.

a doctor here much more attractive than it is at present. We have under

:49:47.:49:52.

ten minutes and I want to take one more question from Lesley Gillard?

:49:53.:49:57.

Happens to be a student nurse. I don't know if it's an NHS question

:49:58.:50:02.

but let's have your question? As we have a minimum wage, should we

:50:03.:50:07.

introduce a maximum wage? This week, the...

:50:08.:50:08.

LAUGHTER. The minimum wage went up to ?7. 20

:50:09.:50:19.

an hour this week and what perhaps on your mind is Bob Dudley from BP

:50:20.:50:25.

getting a ?14 million pay package. Tim Martin, you are not short of a

:50:26.:50:29.

bob or two? ! Thank you for pointing that out, David! It's a tricky one.

:50:30.:50:38.

I think that people are very fed up with the enormous amounts being

:50:39.:50:42.

earned by Plc companies, that goes without saying. You are grappling

:50:43.:50:46.

with the great difficulty of wanting to attract the best businesses and

:50:47.:50:50.

the biggest businesses to Britain at the same time as finding it

:50:51.:50:54.

repugnant that the very biggest business just about is paying ?14

:50:55.:51:00.

million quid a year so I don't actually know the answer to that.

:51:01.:51:03.

They have remuneration committees and so on, the boards of directors

:51:04.:51:09.

are overseen by non-executive directors who're supposed to control

:51:10.:51:13.

this, but the problem is, the non-executive directors themselves

:51:14.:51:16.

are answering to people paid even more than the guys on board in many

:51:17.:51:20.

respects so it's a tricky one. I think you are going to have to put

:51:21.:51:25.

up with some pretty high pay to attract the biggest companies and if

:51:26.:51:29.

they come here, we get a lot of tax from them so you have to hold your

:51:30.:51:33.

nose and put up with it. What about the role of the shareholders, nearly

:51:34.:51:38.

60% voted against this and the chairman of the company said yes, we

:51:39.:51:41.

hear what you say but we'll in effect make our own decision? There

:51:42.:51:47.

are these votes going around, but they haven't really been effective.

:51:48.:51:51.

Shareholders own the company though, it's capitalism? Listen, I don't

:51:52.:51:57.

know whether you are against the living wage, you don't want to see

:51:58.:52:02.

the living wage? It was introduced by Wetherspoon in effect a year

:52:03.:52:07.

before anyone else, we pay 40% of our profits to people who work in

:52:08.:52:10.

our pubs, which is more than anyone else. I'll answer your question

:52:11.:52:13.

because you have said it three times. I would like an answer. Don't

:52:14.:52:18.

interrupt me so much and I'll give you one. What we've done, it's OK

:52:19.:52:23.

for Wetherspoon to pay a certain amount, I don't think it's going to

:52:24.:52:29.

work in Ashington or Carmarthen or a lot of places where the income

:52:30.:52:35.

levels are very low. If you pitch a very high living wage in order to

:52:36.:52:41.

get elected, this wasn't thought out by the pay commission, the previous

:52:42.:52:44.

coalition had which I thought was very good, this came from George and

:52:45.:52:49.

David after a couple of pints at Chequers saying, how can we get

:52:50.:52:54.

George elected the next time. He doesn't believe in living wages.

:52:55.:53:02.

Leanne Wood? You can't have a minimum wage in Carmarthen because

:53:03.:53:06.

it's too high? I remember the arguments being put when the minimum

:53:07.:53:11.

wage was debated in the 90s. Don't want it to be too high? The argument

:53:12.:53:15.

was businesses would close and people would be laid off and it just

:53:16.:53:22.

didn't happen. Because it was done scientifically Leanne by the Low Pay

:53:23.:53:26.

Commission, not by George and someone else having a couple of

:53:27.:53:30.

pints? The question was about the maximum wage and I think the idea of

:53:31.:53:35.

a maximum wage is a really good one because then you could avoid the

:53:36.:53:39.

situation that we've seen arising in recent years where the top

:53:40.:53:44.

executives of organisations are paying themselves big pay rises

:53:45.:53:48.

where those at the lowest paid end of the organisation have had to have

:53:49.:53:53.

either pay freezes or pay cuts. So if you had a maximum wage and pinned

:53:54.:53:58.

your lowest paid workers to your highest paid workers, then the

:53:59.:54:01.

highest paid workers would think very carefully about how much they

:54:02.:54:05.

give themselves a pay rise because they would have to bring everybody

:54:06.:54:09.

else up at the bottom as well. So yes, from me, yes to the maximum

:54:10.:54:11.

wage. You, Sir? I think instead of a

:54:12.:54:18.

maximum wage, I think it would be bet federal we made the people

:54:19.:54:21.

earning the maximum wages pay their proper taxes which, as you can see,

:54:22.:54:24.

is... APPLAUSE.

:54:25.:54:34.

You, Sir? I'm a business bank manager for small local businesses

:54:35.:54:37.

in Exeter and it's not the companies the size of Tim's that have got a

:54:38.:54:41.

problem, it's the small owner managed businesses having to put up

:54:42.:54:45.

their wages week in week out under pressure from their staff. That's

:54:46.:54:48.

who I'm worried about, not the big businesses. Because of the minimum

:54:49.:54:54.

wage? Because of the minimum wage and the staff expect step-ups as

:54:55.:54:59.

well and it's the business owners taking less money home and earning

:55:00.:55:02.

less profit because it's all going in wages now. Liam Fox? Well, to

:55:03.:55:07.

answer the previous point before that, the chap raised the point

:55:08.:55:11.

about the taxes. The richest 1% now in the UK pay 28% of all income tax

:55:12.:55:15.

which is the highest it's been. Can you answer him because we only have

:55:16.:55:20.

a moment left? I don't agree with a maximum wage. I'm sympathetic to the

:55:21.:55:23.

small businesses because they are the ones who provide more employment

:55:24.:55:28.

in the country tan anything else. I'm all for people making a profit

:55:29.:55:31.

and making a lot of money if that's what they work hard for, people who

:55:32.:55:36.

set up a small business, who grow it, sacrifice, don't have holidays,

:55:37.:55:39.

so that they can get their business going. His point is the minimum wage

:55:40.:55:44.

means other wages are going up? That is the point that's already been

:55:45.:55:47.

made, it's where you set that minimum wage. I'm all for the fact

:55:48.:55:52.

of having a system that there's a floor that no-one would fall below

:55:53.:55:56.

but I have a problem with setting a maximum because those who work hard

:55:57.:56:00.

ought to benefit from it. A big problem is the croney capitalism

:56:01.:56:04.

where bankers get paid huge bonuses when the banks are losing money.

:56:05.:56:09.

It's all very well get ago bonus and getting profit and income when you

:56:10.:56:12.

are generating wealth but you should not be getting the same rewards when

:56:13.:56:18.

you are consuming wealth. So in power shareholding. 60-seconds left.

:56:19.:56:23.

That's what you have to do. Their money is being robbed by those

:56:24.:56:27.

taking excessively high wages and if you give the shareholders the power,

:56:28.:56:31.

then I think you will find this is naturally correct in the interest of

:56:32.:56:36.

the shareholder. Presumably in BP the shareholders don't have the

:56:37.:56:41.

power in the articles? They can set the reel Rail Maritime and Transport

:56:42.:56:43.

Unionration every other year but this was the year in-between -- set

:56:44.:56:51.

the remuneration every other year. I agree with you on that. The public

:56:52.:56:54.

sector has a role to play too because I'm fed up with local

:56:55.:56:58.

authorities paying their Chief Executives and hospitals paying

:56:59.:57:01.

their Chief Executives huge amounts of money. They make the very same

:57:02.:57:05.

argument that you did, Tim, that you don't attract the best person. I

:57:06.:57:09.

remember public service when it was public service and the idea that

:57:10.:57:12.

we'd have to pay more and more to get people to run our local

:57:13.:57:15.

authorities and hospitals I think is wrong. OK. Time's up, I'm sorry.

:57:16.:57:25.

So, join us next week, we are going to be in Hull, Andy Burnham for

:57:26.:57:32.

Labour, Alex Salmond for the SNP among the panelists, it seems.

:57:33.:57:35.

after that, we are in Manchester. There are the addresses on the

:57:36.:57:40.

If you are listening on the website or call the number there:

:57:41.:57:48.

If you are listening on the this glory continues with Question

:57:49.:57:48.

Time extra time. It this glory continues with Question

:57:49.:57:53.

telly, my thanks to our panel, and to all of you who came to take part

:57:54.:57:58.

in this programme in Exeter. Until next Thursday from Question Time,

:57:59.:57:59.

good night.

:58:00.:58:03.

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Exeter.

On the panel: Conservative former defence secretary Liam Fox MP, Labour's Kate Hoey MP, former leader of the Liberal Democrats Lord Ashdown, leader of Plaid Cymru Leanne Wood AM and founder and chairman of Wetherspoon Tim Martin.


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