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Tonight, we are in Exeter and this is Question Time. | :00:08. | :00:20. | |
Good evening and welcome to you, whether you are watching, listening | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
on the radio, and to our panel. The Conservative former Defence | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
Secretary, Liam Fox. Former leader of the Liberal Democrats, Paddy | :00:31. | :00:32. | |
Ashdown. The Labour MP campaigning to leave the European Union, Kate | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
Hoey. The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. And the founder and | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
chairman of the Wetherspoon chain of pubs, Tim Martin. | :00:42. | :00:56. | |
As we go into this hour of debate, remember Facebook, Twitter, all at | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
your disposal. Or you can text if you want to take issue with what the | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
panel and audience are saying. Our first question from Louise | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
Haines. Is it OK for Barack Obama to come to the UK and tell us how to | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
vote in the EU referendum? Barack Obama, who arrives today. Liam Fox. | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
Well, the president is entitled to be heard. He is our closest ally in | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
the world. My problem with this is that what he is talking about for | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
Britain is something that America would never except for itself. You | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
would never have would never except for itself. You | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
accepting a court telling the Supreme Court what to do. They would | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
never except an open border with Mexico. You would never expect | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
Congress to allow someone else to tell them how to spend money. | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Congress to allow someone else to when you get involved in any one | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
else's domestic politics. If there is | :02:03. | :02:02. | |
else's domestic politics. If there your national-security, you probably | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
need to speak out. But I don't like being told we should accept one | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
thing that the Americans wouldn't. My message to President Obama would | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
be, can we cope with making My message to President Obama would | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
laws? Can we cope with controlling our borders? Can we cope with | :02:22. | :02:30. | |
In the past, you have lectured America on what you think they | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
should do, haven't you? It is not a question of... You have. And I am | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
not head of state. We know that. So it is all right for you? We all have | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
opinions but he is dead of state. To come and say to us, you should | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
accept something for come and say to us, you should | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
Kingdom that we would never except for the United States, I think he | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
should pause and think of for the United States, I think he | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
message that gives. -- he is the head of state. That is not what he | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
is saying. He is saying you should make up your own mind about this. | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
Look, 19 and years ago this month, the American president, in 1917, | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
Look, 19 and years ago this month, took the decision that American | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
troops would be sent to Europe. They were, by the thousand. We would | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
probably have lost the First World War had it not been for the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
intervention of America to save our freedom. And they did it again in | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
the Second World War. And they did it again in the Cold War. And in | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
those three wars, 1.5 million Young American soldiers were killed or | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
wounded. What reason is he here? There are 1.5 million reasons. | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
America has in the past protected us, defended us at every one of the | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
dangerous moments we have faced. If it is the President's view, and it | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
is mine too, that the step we are about to take will introduce | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
instability into Europe at a time which is exceedingly dangerous, he | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
has a right to say that, and he has a right to tell us that this step | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
will endanger the safety of both his country and Europe and ourselves. | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
Hang on a second, Tim, let me finish. Now, he does come here as a | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
head of state of the greatest nation on earth. And our constant friend in | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
times of the most difficulty over the last 100 years. We should give | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
him a hearing and we should listen. And we should treat him with | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
respect. And the one thing we should not do is to do what Kate Hoey did | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
the other day, call him a patronising hypocrite. That is bad | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
manners and it shames all of us. APPLAUSE | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
Kate Hoey ought to be able to answer that. Well, I did not actually call | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
him a patronising hypocrite. I said he was hypocritical and he was being | :05:01. | :05:02. | |
patronising. LAUGHTER | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
You should read it more carefully. I don't think President Obama woke up | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
one morning and said with Michelle, we have got to go to London and tell | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
the people that they need to stay and vote to stay in the European | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
Union. We know why he has come, and it is a very useful time to come and | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
have lunch with Her Majesty and that is great and I have no objection to | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
him coming to say goodbye. But of course we know he was asked by the | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
Prime Minister. David Cameron literally, I believe, not | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
necessarily got down on his knees, but pleaded with him to come because | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
he needs him, because he knows the campaign has not been going well. Do | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
you have a tiny bit of evidence to support that? I know David Cameron | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
is spending a lot of time instead of looking after the steel industry and | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
other issues that we might come onto in going round the country and going | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
round getting every single international figure he can get to | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
come along and tell the British people. But the reality in terms of | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
the security issue is ridiculous. The Americans have their own | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
interest. I know they are our greatest neighbour and friend we | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
want to be working with, but they have their own interest. They tried | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
to stop us defending the Falklands. They tried to stop us when they | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
invaded Grenada, and part of the Commonwealth, they did not come us. | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
It is in their interests because they see us in the European Union as | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
their spokesperson. If we leave, why would we not still be part of being | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
friendly with the United States to with them? Let's hear from you in | :06:41. | :06:47. | |
the front row. I wonder whether he is saying what is in America's | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
interest, or in our interest. Leanne Wood. Well, I don't remember there | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
being a big outcry when President Obama intervened in the Scottish | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
referendum debate. I think many Tories welcomed his intervention | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
then, telling Scots that Scotland would be better off as part of the | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
United Kingdom. So either it is OK for the president of the United | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
States to intervene on matters in the UK, or it is not. You cannot | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
pick and choose depending on the referendum. But I would say, from a | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
Welsh perspective, we have elections to the National Assembly in two | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
weeks, and this debate has completely dominated politics for a | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
number of weeks now. And the danger for us is that the very important | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
issues, the fact that we have had 17 years of age they buy led | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
government, they are the establishment in Wales. -- of a | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
labour- led government. We are not doing a party political broadcast. | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
Well, if it was OK for him to intervene in the Scottish referendum | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
campaign, it has to be OK for him to intervene in this one. The man in | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
the gallery. To link this back, as Paddy did, to a security issue, the | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
reason the Americans can have an opinion on things, surely security | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
in Europe has been a Nato programme, and we joined the single market, the | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
political project that is Europe in the 1970s. So it is nothing to do | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
with the war is and what has happened since the war is. Tim | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
Martin. I agree with what you said about Nato. If Barack Obama wants to | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
speak out, or Prince Charles wants to speak out, you can't stop them. I | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
think it's slightly repugnant the way it does seem to be the great and | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
the good. Even the New Zealand Prime Minister has been asked to comment | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
on the European Union. So there is quite a lot of interference. I | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
utterly disagree with Paddy's analysis of the situation. What has | :09:03. | :09:10. | |
made America great, the top military power, fantastically powerful | :09:11. | :09:12. | |
economy, perhaps the greatest country in the world, is the fact | :09:13. | :09:21. | |
that it is a democracy. And that democracy is enshrined in their | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
constitution. And if you look around the world now, it is democratic | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
countries which are the most prosperous, and democratic countries | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
which have the most freedom. And America is a shining example of | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
that. The problem with Europe is that it is removing democracy... | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
APPLAUSE And that is the issue. We were | :09:42. | :09:51. | |
dealing with Barack Obama's visit. We have a question on Europe coming | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
up, so let's go to that and we will just move on. Robin Horne, please. | :09:56. | :10:03. | |
Are the Treasury right to use scare tactics in the forthcoming | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
referendum? This was the latest announcement by the Treasury saying | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
that on average, by 2030, households would have to pay, would lose ?4300 | :10:13. | :10:20. | |
a year. Paddy, I will come to you but first I want to ask a question | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
which has been niggling at me. When we saw you and Neil Kinnock and | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
David Cameron on those telephones this week, who were you actually | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
talking to? We were talking to help others on the Remain campaign. You | :10:34. | :10:43. | |
were not calling people? No, we were bringing them to say thank you. -- | :10:44. | :10:56. | |
we were ringing them. I had just discovered three Lib Dems in a row. | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
The third one said, can I speak to the Prime Minister to persuade him | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
to vote Lib Dem, so I handed it to the Prime Minister. The question | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
was, look, I think the Treasury was right. This is well founded, and the | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
Financial Times said so, too. I will concede that both sides will no | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
doubt massaging arguments in favour and the figure is a bit. They always | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
do it and they are probably doing it now. So I invite you not to listen | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
to the Treasury. Really? David, you must let me finish. I want you to | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
listen instead to the Independent, accepted, respected international | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
bodies, who have warned us of the dangers and costs to ourselves and | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
the global economy and the European economy of doing a step that would | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
take us out of Europe. And the Out campaign say, no, they are wrong. | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
They don't explain why they are wrong, they just say they are wrong, | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
as if saying it makes it so. So the IMF was wrong, the OECD was wrong, | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
the World Trade Organisation was wrong. The G-7 Finance | :12:07. | :12:08. | |
the World Trade Organisation was said that were wrong. | :12:09. | :12:09. | |
the World Trade Organisation was England governor was wrong. Everyone | :12:10. | :12:11. | |
is wrong, except for them. Rubbish. England governor was wrong. Everyone | :12:12. | :12:22. | |
Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I am going to set a challenge | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
Wait. I can't keep waiting, Paddy. I will be interesting. Can they offer | :12:26. | :12:25. | |
the name of a will be interesting. Can they offer | :12:26. | :12:39. | |
world economy, just as we are coming out of recession and about to be | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
plunged back into it? That is what they are saying. Are they wrong? On | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
the question, on the Treasury, they are saying. Are they wrong? On | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
be frank and honest, all politicians will use negative campaigning at | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
some point if it suits them. But if you are going to do it, at least you | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
have to be decent about doing it. The thing about the Treasury report | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
was that it was cringingly inept. I was embarrassed that it came out of | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
the Treasury which I helped get elected, and I think Gordon Brown | :13:10. | :13:10. | |
would have blushed at the elected, and I think Gordon Brown | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
particular report. Since Paddy wants an explanation, they invented this | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
particular report. Since Paddy wants statistic, GDP per household, never | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
used anywhere else in government, never used in the Budget, never used | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
anywhere else. According have GDP per household of ?68,000. | :13:29. | :13:38. | |
2030, they are talking about. What they said was that although the | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
economy would continue to grow, whether inside or outside the | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
European Union, they believed it would grow slightly more slowly | :13:48. | :13:48. | |
outside the European Union. they said, if you make the | :13:49. | :13:49. | |
assumption they said, if you make the | :13:50. | :13:56. | |
migrants coming in, you end up with this number of 4300. Hang on a | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
second. In order for George Osborne to be right, we have to have no | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
trade deals outside the European Union, have 3 million migrants, | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
which blows apart the Conservative election pledges. And they have to | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
be right in their predictions for 60 consecutive quarters. Remember, | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
today we got the number that we did not get the number correct from our | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
prediction in October last year. So this seems to be a lot for us to | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
swallow. Frankly, it was an incredible assessment. | :14:30. | :14:29. | |
APPLAUSE Can you, or maybe Kate, can pick up | :14:30. | :14:41. | |
on the point Paddy made, which is there are a whole host of these | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
reports and the Institute for Fiscal Studies says they are mostly in the | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
same direction. Kate was asked if she could name a reputable | :14:53. | :15:02. | |
institution. I've got one. The CBI actually commissioned the PWC, Price | :15:03. | :15:04. | |
Waterhouse Cooper. They did a report which said yes, of course, when we | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
leave immediately, there'll be some uncertainty, but, as the months go | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
on, growth will grow, and it is very, very clear that there are | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
other independent reports, Capital Economics, the Tosca fund, I don't | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
know the details because fundamentally to me, yes, the | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
economics is very important and we are going to get all the different | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
views and there'll be scare stories. For me, the most important thing | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
about why I want people to leave is because I genuinely believe that | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
we've lost control of our borders and immigration system but, more | :15:42. | :15:43. | |
importantly, we are not an independent country any more. We are | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
not. And that is to me the most important thing. | :15:48. | :15:49. | |
APPLAUSE Members of audience. The man in the | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
checked shirt? I did some maths on the back of an envelope as well. I'm | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
an economist and financial adviser and I took the ?10 billion of net | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
savings that we'd make if we left Europe and I multiplied those by 14 | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
which is the number of years up to 2030. I then used the economic | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
credit multiplier because you have the benefit of spending that ?10 | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
billion, the taxes raised on it and the growth and so on. The figure I | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
came out with was ?1.5 trillion which means if we leave the European | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
Union we'll be able to fund and repay the national debt. | :16:30. | :16:31. | |
CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. . | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
You should be in the Treasury. Kate Hoey thinks you should be in the | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
Treasury. You were asked to name one of the international accredited | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
institutions. I wasn't tonight. You have named none of them so far, so | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
it would be interesting to see... They all got it wrong on the euro | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
panel, you know that. Hang on a second. OK, fine, I accept, they | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
could all be wrong. These guys could be right. Are you going to bet the | :17:07. | :17:17. | |
whole country on that possibility? If you are, that is fine. If you are | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
going to get the whole country on a pious hope, rather than serious | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
studies from the international institutions that are respected | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
around the world, then you are right to vote Brexit. Now, can I answer | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
the question? No, the man over there first, you can come back. Does Liam | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
Fox not feel embarrassed at working for a Government that he can't | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
support? I mean, they are so inept, he's just said so. The Government is | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
so inept? Yes. I said the report was inept, not the Government. I think | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
that... The Chancellor... We have different views. We are not going to | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
be identical politicians, the public don't want that. What I would say to | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
Paddy... No, no, no, you said the Chancellor was inept. I didn't say | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
the Government was inept. You said the Chancellor was. I said the | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
report was. You didn't say the Chancellor was? No, I said it was | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
cringing. Does it embarrass you? To Paddy's point on the IMF... Never | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
mind Paddy. Every single one, not just the IMF, the OECD, the Governor | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
More of the economics, all of themment. They all said you should | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
join the euro, the Bank of England said it would be good for the | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
European Union for us to join. Thank goodness we didn't. I'll go around | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
the table. The woman up there first in the second row from the back? | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
How do you think the Government will be able to guarantee income for | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
farmers if we left the European Union? They get so much of their | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
income, 55% of their income in 2015 came from being linked with the | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
European Union direct payments. How would the Government be able to | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
guarantee that? Leanne Wood, you have farmers in Wales that benefit | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
from that? I'm really glad use raised that question. We have | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
farmers scratching a living on hillsides trying very hard to make | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
those businesses a success and I'm very concerned about what will | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
happen to those because I have no faith in Westminster whoever is in | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
Government to redistribute that wealth in a fair way. They don't | :19:34. | :19:43. | |
have a good record on that. So you trust the Europeans better than | :19:44. | :19:45. | |
Westminster on this? They are doing that now, there is an element of | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
redistribution. But you think a Westminster Government would pull | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
back on that if Brexit came about? My party has been campaigning for | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
years with parity. We have had no success in terms of sorting out our | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
financial situation. Can I just respond to this point about | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
information and figures and the way in which this information is put | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
out. People are desperate for accurate information, for facts. | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
This is a difficult decision and people want to make an informed | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
decision based on the correct information. The way that figures | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
are being banded about, economic forecasts, way into the future, are | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
impossible to predict. Today, it's not just the one side, it's the | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
Brexit supporters as well. We had the head of the Office for National | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
Statistics who's questioned the figure of ?350 million that's been | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
used saying that that's how much it costs us to remain a member of the | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
EU. There are questions on both sides and what people want now, in | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
order to make that informed choice on this very important question, is | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
to have facts. The problem with facts, Leanne, they can be interpred | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
differently. If I hold up this glass of water in my right hand it's half | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
full, if I move it to my left hand, it's half empty. You know, just on | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
the farming aspect though, 40% of the money we give into the EU goes | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
to subsidising farmers all over the EU. We are subsidising French | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
farmers, far, far more than our farmers are getting. Before we | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
joined the Common Market, farmers got subsidies. | :21:26. | :21:35. | |
Tim Martin? The farming and agricultural minister, George | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
Eustace, has said that the farming community will continue to be | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
supported to the same level it is within the EU. There is no real EU | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
money. We send money out to the EU and it then comes back to support | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
farmers with strings attached. It's not a very efficient way of running. | :21:57. | :22:03. | |
Why did the NFU vote to remain then? They represent them? Maybe they | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
don't believe George Eustace, I but I do. Liam Fox? Paddy Ashdown? In | :22:09. | :22:19. | |
terms of facts, Leanne is right, ?350 million they have been talking | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
about, actually that was checked and on the report announced today by Sir | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
Andrew Dilnot in the UK statisticical agency whose job it is | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
to provide statistics are accurate, says that ?350 million is totally | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
inaccurate. He says it's misleading. The actual figure we give to Europe | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
after taking account of the rebates that come back is about ?7. | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
after taking account of the rebates billion, 30p per person per day in | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
Britain. I would like to address our economist friend over | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
Britain. I would like to address our take that as ?7 billion or ?8 | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
billion that we pay into the European Union. If we leave, the | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
likelihood, you can already see the pound dropping, you are already | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
beginning to see Britain's credit rating being held in question by | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
Standard Poor. If I think it's the case, which is likely, that an exit | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
leads to one quarter of one percent on increase in interest rates on | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
mountain of debt, that ?7 billion is swallowed up the day after many, | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
many times over, leaving aside text true cost of ?23 billion. -- the | :23:32. | :23:41. | |
extra cost of ?23 billion in tariffs that is going to be loaded on the | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
cost of British goods and that is going to be loaded on the | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
which shall be paid for, not by your money, but in lost jobs and | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
which shall be paid for, not by your businesses. This doesn't sound to me | :23:54. | :23:54. | |
like a good deal. We did say we shouldn't take too | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
much account of the figures being banded | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
much account of the figures being it's the national statisticical | :24:07. | :24:07. | |
agency designed to be able to ensure that figures are correct who | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
criticise the ?350 million, the audience should know that. In | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
terms of farming, to go the audience should know that. In | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
will determine whether we get a the audience should know that. In | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
deal or not, is what is in our mutual interest. We actually import | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
the figure that year was ?19.4 billion worth of agricultural goods | :24:31. | :24:32. | |
from Europe more than we sell to them. It's actually in their | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
interests, even more than ours, to get a Free Trade Agreement, | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
including on agricultural goods. The MFU report actually said, if we | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
assume we have a free trade deal and continue subsidies at the level we | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
do now and I don't know any party proposing anything else, all | :24:54. | :24:54. | |
agricultural sectors proposing anything else, all | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
It doesn't do any good to scare people into thinking the benefits | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
will be less. You, Sir, in the blue suit? | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
will be less. one of the things you asked Kate | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
about earlier was evidence and you are banding around figures that | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
didn't protect the recession and how good or bad the recovery would be. | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
It's not good enough. You with the spectacles in front of him? In the | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
short-term, we see that maybe there'll be a struggle before we can | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
actually negotiate all of these free trade deals. Maybe in the long run | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
you can make the case that it's better to exit but in the short-term | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
there'll be significant pain. More members of audience. You, Sir? Yes. | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
I wonder if at the end of the day, the figures are going to be what | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
people make their decision around. It's very difficult to feel that you | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
can believe any particular set of figures so much that you can rely on | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
them. I believe people will vote on how they feel about the EU and | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
nothing else. APPLAUSE | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
You, Sir? The point I would like to make is, it's all a mess. I have | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
more confidence that we can sort out our own mess and that mess can be | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
sorted out in Brussels. This whole debate is really, and I know Paddy | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
doesn't like me using this word, but it's the establishment who're lining | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
up and uniting against ordinary people who want to have a say for | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
the first time in 40 years. Why does that... Sorry, if it is the | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
establishment... Why is Boris in it? I how come you are one of only seven | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
Labour MPs? No, 12. Going for Brexit. Is the Labour Party the | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
establishment? Is Jeremy Corbyn the establishment? Well, of course, | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
Jeremy's position on the EU is very interesting because, of course, | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
Jeremy was in every single lobby with myself and others right through | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
the last 20 years. But Jeremy is now leader of the party, he wants to | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
keep the party together, he doesn't want to be seeing the divisions that | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
perhaps there are in the Conservatives. And he doesn't want | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
to come on the same side as you, Kate, does he? He actually has a | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
very different view which I support, of what should happen in the EU. I | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
don't believe it will ever reform and therefore I think there's no | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
point in staying in. We are half way through the | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
programme now. More questions. You, madam? Why does everything have to | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
be about the bottom line? Why? Do we not have some vision here? Some | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
leadership? Why are we retreating into petty nationalism? Why do we | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
not want to work with our European friends and neighbour to reform a | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
deeply flawed institution, but to make it better? | :27:48. | :27:55. | |
APPLAUSE I think it's very important to understand that the Europeans are | :27:56. | :28:03. | |
our friends and what's important for them, as important for us, and it's | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
been shown to be the greatest protection against autocrats and | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
war, is that they regain control of their own democracy. And that's what | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
will protect us in the future, so it isn't being a Little Britain to want | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
to have democracy, it's slowly being eroded and that's very dangerous. Is | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
it really a friendly gesture? Let her come back and then Paddy you can | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
reply? Is it really a friendly gesture to throw your toys out of | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
the pram and say you are not going to play any more because it doesn't | :28:39. | :28:40. | |
suit you? We are not doing that. She is right, the great British | :28:41. | :28:54. | |
tradition is to getting gauged. But you are also entirely right in | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
saying this is not just about economics. -- to get engaged. Liam | :28:58. | :29:05. | |
said it was due to Nato that we are at peace. Well, every single one of | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
our Nato allies, and there is no exception, is saying, please do not | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
leave Europe, Nato will be weaker in consequence. Every one of our | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
European allies is saying the same thing. Every one of our Commonwealth | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
allies is saying the same thing. Only one man in our neighbourhood | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
wants us to leave and begin to break up the European Union and you know | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
his name. It is Vladimir Putin. His strategy for the last 30 years has | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
been to divide Europe, to use energy, to use tanks to capture | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
European territory. If you move now to break up the European Union, then | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
I can tell you the one person who will cheer is not a single one of | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
our allies or our friends, but the Russian leader. Vote Brexit, it is | :29:54. | :30:04. | |
what Putin wants you to do. Liam Fox is a former Defence Secretary. What | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
do you make of that? I think it is nonsensical. Paddy, allow him to | :30:10. | :30:18. | |
answer, please. We were in the EU when he annexed Crimea. We were in | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
the EU when he invaded Georgia. It did not seem to dissuade him from | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
those actions. I think that is a ridiculous argument. I want to take | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
up the point the gentleman right at the back made, with the grey hair, | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
if you don't mind me saying that. I do agree. I think this is much more | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
than just about money. And for me and for many people this is about | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
being a self-governing democracy, able to make our own laws, control | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
our borders and control our own money, and to escape from the | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
financial quicksand of the euro. Because the more that the euro drags | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
down the European economy, and I'm not sure people understand this, and | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
the more our economy is successful, the bigger our contribution to the | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
European Union gets. We end up funding a project we stayed out of | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
because we correctly predicted it would fail. Can I ask a very simple | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
question to which there is isn't what answer? Name me one Nato leader | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
of one of our partners in Nato who agrees that Brexit is a good idea | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
for our common security? Just one. Many of them are in the European | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
Union because we give them free British money. Of course they will | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
want us to stay. So you can't name one of our friends who agrees with | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
you. That is the answer. We have to move on. Do you want a last word, | :31:45. | :31:54. | |
Madam? I don't remember a time when we were not part of the common | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
market. I want more information. Facts and figures can be interpreted | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
in different ways but I want to know what is going to happen. I don't | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
know what will happen if we come out. I am on the fence. I know which | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
side I prefer but I am torn and I get bombarded with information. | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
Facts and figures are bombarded. What is going to happen to us? Does | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
this kind of discussion help you? This is a dangerous question to ask. | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
Or does it make it worse? Oui unfortunately, it doesn't. Getting | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
facts and figures, the gentleman in front of me is probably very clever | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
at economics and his maths is probably very good, but he said he | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
wrote it on the back of envelope. We know what is going to happen. How | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
will you make up your mind if you have this and you are bombarded with | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
all this? I'm concerned about immigration, but I also want this | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
country to grow. I want money, investment and jobs for people in | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
this area but I live in an area where farmers need support. We do | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
get money from the EU. It is our money. I know it is our money. I am | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
very torn. The first thing to do is to look at Australia, New Zealand, | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
Canada, the United States, Singapore, countries which are | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
independent democracies. But they are very different to us. When you | :33:19. | :33:26. | |
going to make up your mind? I am about 60-40. My husband is very | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
opposite and we do debate things. Is that your husband next to you? No. | :33:31. | :33:41. | |
He is at home. OK, thank you very much. All I can say is keep | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
watching. We will be in Hull next week if you want to come and | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
Manchester the week after that. I say that because if you want to make | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
a note, there is the website address and our telephone number. Let's move | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
on, because we will discuss the EU week after week. Let's take this | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
question from Lisa Kelman, please, a medical student. What should Jeremy | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
Hunt do to avoid an all-out strike by junior doctors? Resign. | :34:12. | :34:21. | |
Shall we go on to the next question? Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt | :34:22. | :34:33. | |
is not facing Kate Hoey. Well, I think Jeremy Hunt | :34:34. | :34:35. | |
next week situation going to be happening with | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
the all out strike that is going to take place. I believe the time is | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
for the Prime Minister, as I said earlier, who is spending an awful | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
lot of time on the EU business, but actually this is an immediate | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
crisis. I believe the Prime Minister should be taking control of this, he | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
should be insisting that Jeremy Hunt, and personally I would move | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
him and get a new Secretary of State. I think that would be a great | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
addition to making things work, because there is no doubt, and I | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
know from doctors in my constituency how little respect now they have for | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
the Secretary of State for Health. If you have that lack of respect, | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
how can you even start to begin to negotiate? I would say to the Prime | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
Minister, your responsibility, get everybody round the table in Downing | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
Street even if we have to have tea and biscuits or whatever they used | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
to do, and realise this will not be solved by Jeremy Hunt. | :35:35. | :35:35. | |
APPLAUSE One thing that makes no sense to me | :35:36. | :35:46. | |
is how the BMA can say that the new junior doctors' contracts are safe | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
and will put patients at risk and possibly increased death rates or | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
whatever, but then the BMA can organise a strike next week or the | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
week after, where emergency cover isn't going to be covered, if that | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
makes sense. Surely that is going to be just as dangerous as, if the new | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
contract is dangerous, I can't think of the words... Equal danger. Yes. | :36:10. | :36:18. | |
Liam Fox, you were a doctor, what do you make of it? As someone who as a | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
junior doctor in the NHS worked many more hours than junior doctors | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
today, I am glad we got away from where we were then. I can remember | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
doing in obstetrics what is called A1 in two. We had to work the day, | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
the next day and the next night, and the next day and the next night. | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
That was dangerous, and one of the good things about the contract is | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
the reduction in total hours doctors are allowed to work from 91 hours | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
each week, which is still a great number, down to 72. Is that the EU | :36:50. | :36:57. | |
working time directive? No, this is the government's new contract, and I | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
think that is positive. I have a problem with doctors going on strike | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
and the General Medical Council have said it may lead to doctors being | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
potentially struck off if patients were to die as a result of their | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
actions. My personal view is that if we don't allow the police to strike | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
and do not allow the Armed Forces to strike, there is quite a strong | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
argument to say we should not allow doctors to strike and in return we | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
cut them a special deal. What should the Secretary of State do? I think | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
he needs to keep talking. 90% of the contract is already agreed. I think | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
it is wrong for the doctors to go on strike. There is a question here | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
about the seven days. What are we trying to achieve? Is it better | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
seven days emergency cover, or a full seven-day service with elective | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
surgery and all those services running? If that is what we want, it | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
is more than just doctors. If you want a full service you have to have | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
haematologists, radiographers, dieticians all in the time. Someone | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
shouted, you tell us, because you support the government on this. I | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
would like to get to that full seven-day service, because patients | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
do not get ill according to what day of the week it is. That means more | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
money. I think that is right in the long term it requires more money. It | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
requires a change in how we organise our health care. Everyone should | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
take a deep breath, get back into the talks and recognise the one | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
thing that seems to be left out of this, that the most important people | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
in the health service are not the doctors or anyone else but the | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
patients, and the quality of health care patients are getting when they | :38:39. | :38:40. | |
want it and at a level of quality they deserve. You, sir, with the | :38:41. | :38:49. | |
moustache. Easily identifiable. I would like to make an observation. | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
David Cameron used as one of his sound bites to get elected that | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
there will be no top-down restructure of the NHS. And I will | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
cut the deficit, not the NHS. They have totally gone against that, and | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
in terms of doctors going on strike, I served in the Fire Service. I have | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
been on strike. We didn't want to do it, it was a horrible place to be. I | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
think they are being forced into this situation. There is a seven-day | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
NHS at the moment and we have had it for many years. And it was setup in | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
the time of greatest posterity and has served this country well. | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
Nothing is more valuable than health. Hold on, let's come to the | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
point. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? Resign. Resign now. Tim | :39:44. | :39:52. | |
Martin. I think the issue of the health service in Britain suffers | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
mostly because it is a sacred cow and we don't, unlike car | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
manufacturing and many other types of things, we don't much ever | :40:01. | :40:08. | |
compared how it works in France, how it works in New Zealand, in | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
Australia, where I think in many ways they have superior systems. | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
It's very difficult working in the NHS, from people I speak to. It is a | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
top-down runs and I think it needs fundamental reform, and the debate | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
which Liam Fox has said. If you want a health service, and there is | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
really nowhere else to go, I don't think you can go on strike. So what | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
should Jeremy Hunt do? Running my business, I would never impose a new | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
contract on our managers without their agreement first, because it is | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
too confrontational. If you can't get them to agree it, you can't do | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
it. APPLAUSE | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
Leanne Wood. In answer to the question, he should talk to them and | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
he should show them some respect. We have a big problem in the NHS in | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
terms of recruiting doctors. In Wales, we have fewer doctors per | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
head of population than any country in the EU. In fact, there are only | :41:15. | :41:23. | |
three other countries, sorry, in the UK, and only three other countries | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
in the EU with fewer doctors per head of population than we do. We | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
are not having a strike in Wales or Scotland. We take a different | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
approach in Wales and Scotland. I would say to any doctors who are | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
feeling disrespected and unloved by your government, come to Wales. A | :41:41. | :41:50. | |
recruiting Sergeant! Lisa Kelman, who asked the question, what do you | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
think of what you have heard so far? I think Jeremy Hunt should apologise | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
and say, sorry I missed lead the public and caused the hunt effect. I | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
am sorry I have conflated and uncosted mannequin toe with punching | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
junior doctors. I am sorry that I lied this week, saying 500 people | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
have ready sign this contract. No, they haven't. That is what he needs | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
to do. Paddy Ashdown. Tim, I agree with what you said at the end, that | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
if you are going to be a leader, a manager, you really have to bring | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
people with you. I did not agree with you earlier. No need to raise | :42:30. | :42:36. | |
our differences, Paddy! I think we have the best health service in the | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
world and one of the cheapest. I don't Australia is better and I have | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
spent a lot of time there, my family is there. So what should happen now? | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
I think this has become a sort of match over conflict. You can't back | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
down, on both sides. Sensible solutions are being avoided, | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
invaded. So I think it is time, the gentleman at the back said resign, | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
and I think that has most of our support. But I think it is time for | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
the Prime Minister to say it is clear that Jeremy Hunt Keller was | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
all this problem sensibly. Therefore, it probably is time for | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
him to stand aside. -- Jeremy Hunt cannot resolve this sensibly. I | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
don't say that you should not be taking industrial action. You have | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
the public on your side. You are winning this. Be careful about | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
raising the stakes. I see no reason to do that whatsoever. Maintain the | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
pressure as it is, keep the public on your side. If you move up a notch | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
on this and there are some devastating consequences, a tragedy, | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
you will find that that crucial public support, which you need to | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
win this, is going to be lost. My advice is that Jeremy Hunt goes, and | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
if I was a junior doctor I would not ratchet up the pressure. | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
You've just stated that the NHS was brilliant, which it is, and it's the | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
cheapest, and that's nothing to be proud of. Britain is the fifth | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
wealthiest country on the planet. Fair enough. It does not get the | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
funding it deserves. France, Germany and Holland have more funding, more | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
doctors per head per Capita. We are in crisis and the doctors are saying | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
this as well, and we don't work seven days a week full throttle, and | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
that's what we've got to do to accommodate the number of people in | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
this country. Now, I'm a Governor, I kind of know what I'm talking about | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
a bit. Very fair admonishment, best value for money I should have said | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
as well, not the cheapest. What do you think Jeremy Hunt should do? I | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
don't think doctors are creatures that are political, except for you | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
Mr Fox probably. I think if they are saying something we have got to | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
listen. They are intelligent and dedicated to their jobs, we should | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
be listening. A last point from the woman up there? Liam Fox asked us to | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
put patients first and asked what they would want. I'm a junior doctor | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
and have been for five years and I know from picketing and opinion | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
polls show that Paddy is rite, the public are on our side, they | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
understand. If we had a referendum on this tomorrow, England would vote | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
no to imposition of this contract. Consultants would vote no, the Royal | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
Colleges would vote no, patients would vote no. The NHS belongs to | :45:29. | :45:37. | |
all of us, not Jeremy Hunt. Sorry, let me get a microphone to you? I'm | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
sorry, it's absolute rubbish. I used to work in A and before you do | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
extra hours, you opt in right. With any job now you opt in, there's a | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
scheme, you either opt in or out. They do lots of hours because they | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
push to get more money at weekends. Nobody can force anybody to do over | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
the 50 hours a week. They choose to physically do it. They put the | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
patients at risk themselves, I'm sorry, it's all about money and it's | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
wrong. Anybody who goes AWOL and doesn't turn up for a shift while | :46:11. | :46:12. | |
they are on strike should doesn't turn up for a shift while | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
If you were in the military, you would get arrested for going AWOL. | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
They know the NHS... HECKLING. No, the NHS don't want | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
them going off work. They are technically going AWOL not turning | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
up for their shifts, making people anxious by cancelling appointments, | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
it's their choice. I'm sorry, anybody else in any other job would | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
be sacked for doing that. Shame on them. What do you make of her point? | :46:36. | :46:43. | |
My mother 21 years ago, worked for 21 years in the NHS, she had cancer, | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
she was saved in this very town. People like you, you're a traitor to | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
your profession, you stand behind, you are an affront to medicine, you | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
stand there thinking Jeremy Hunt's got it Allwright here, the guy was a | :47:02. | :47:03. | |
bloody editor on a book got it Allwright here, the guy was a | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
a private NHS, you know, we need to move the funding he said. It's | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
bloody suicide, it's the best thing about this country. You said it's a | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
bit sacred cow. Do you know about this country. You said it's a | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
is, whatever happens to me, any part of this country, I can go to a | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
hospital and you can say what you want it's a Sunday so you are | :47:22. | :47:23. | |
definitely going to want it's a Sunday so you are | :47:24. | :47:24. | |
to be ashamed want it's a Sunday so you are | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
Liam Fox? You have been attacked there and | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
Liam Fox? You have been attacked from the centre saying doctors are | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
the hours anyway? I don't think the doctors are | :47:42. | :47:43. | |
the hours anyway? I don't think the think there is a real problem moving | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
from the system we had to a new one and the fact that we are going from | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
what was a Saturday working was regarded as totally different in | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
terms of structural pay now between seven and five on a Saturday is | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
regarded as part of the working week, there are bonuses if you work | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
more than one in four. Leanne, a point on what she said - you don't | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
just put it in the mixer and there are doctors - you have to attract | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
people into medicine and if we want to attract young people into | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
medicine, we have got to give them very clear rewards and to us why | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
they do it. It's not a job, it's a vocation and sometimes we forget | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
that and we've got a system that, in our view, is too target orientated, | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
bureaucratic and, the only basis on which it's ethical to treat patients | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
is the clinical need of the patients. We've got to get back to a | :48:39. | :48:40. | |
medical system that's much patients. We've got to get back to a | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
responsive to that ethos of medicine and stop worrying about waiting | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
times and worry about the quality of the output for the patient because | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
it's the quality of the care for the patient that brings people into | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
medicine in the first place. If all these other targets for waiting | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
times and so on are put ahead of those things, that is a diminished | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
vocational reward for doctors. Unless people feel like they are | :49:07. | :49:07. | |
being valued for those reasons, Unless people feel like they are | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
people will not be there. If the hours are too long, they are not | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
going to do it. They were long hours when I came in and I was still | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
attracted to the NHS. It's not attractive at the moment, people are | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
off too long sick with stress. These are the kind of issues that have to | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
be addressed if we want to attract good quality doctors into the Health | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
Service and we can do it. New Zealand have done it by | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
incentivising doctors to say in the country after they've qualified by | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
having their tuition fees paid off, so there are ways you can make being | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
a doctor here much more attractive than it is at present. We have under | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
ten minutes and I want to take one more question from Lesley Gillard? | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
Happens to be a student nurse. I don't know if it's an NHS question | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
but let's have your question? As we have a minimum wage, should we | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
introduce a maximum wage? This week, the... | :50:08. | :50:08. | |
LAUGHTER. The minimum wage went up to ?7. 20 | :50:09. | :50:19. | |
an hour this week and what perhaps on your mind is Bob Dudley from BP | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
getting a ?14 million pay package. Tim Martin, you are not short of a | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
bob or two? ! Thank you for pointing that out, David! It's a tricky one. | :50:30. | :50:38. | |
I think that people are very fed up with the enormous amounts being | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
earned by Plc companies, that goes without saying. You are grappling | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
with the great difficulty of wanting to attract the best businesses and | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
the biggest businesses to Britain at the same time as finding it | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
repugnant that the very biggest business just about is paying ?14 | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
million quid a year so I don't actually know the answer to that. | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
They have remuneration committees and so on, the boards of directors | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
are overseen by non-executive directors who're supposed to control | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
this, but the problem is, the non-executive directors themselves | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
are answering to people paid even more than the guys on board in many | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
respects so it's a tricky one. I think you are going to have to put | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
up with some pretty high pay to attract the biggest companies and if | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
they come here, we get a lot of tax from them so you have to hold your | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
nose and put up with it. What about the role of the shareholders, nearly | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
60% voted against this and the chairman of the company said yes, we | :51:39. | :51:41. | |
hear what you say but we'll in effect make our own decision? There | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
are these votes going around, but they haven't really been effective. | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
Shareholders own the company though, it's capitalism? Listen, I don't | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
know whether you are against the living wage, you don't want to see | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
the living wage? It was introduced by Wetherspoon in effect a year | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
before anyone else, we pay 40% of our profits to people who work in | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
our pubs, which is more than anyone else. I'll answer your question | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
because you have said it three times. I would like an answer. Don't | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
interrupt me so much and I'll give you one. What we've done, it's OK | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
for Wetherspoon to pay a certain amount, I don't think it's going to | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
work in Ashington or Carmarthen or a lot of places where the income | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
levels are very low. If you pitch a very high living wage in order to | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
get elected, this wasn't thought out by the pay commission, the previous | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
coalition had which I thought was very good, this came from George and | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
David after a couple of pints at Chequers saying, how can we get | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
George elected the next time. He doesn't believe in living wages. | :52:55. | :53:02. | |
Leanne Wood? You can't have a minimum wage in Carmarthen because | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
it's too high? I remember the arguments being put when the minimum | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
wage was debated in the 90s. Don't want it to be too high? The argument | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
was businesses would close and people would be laid off and it just | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
didn't happen. Because it was done scientifically Leanne by the Low Pay | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
Commission, not by George and someone else having a couple of | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
pints? The question was about the maximum wage and I think the idea of | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
a maximum wage is a really good one because then you could avoid the | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
situation that we've seen arising in recent years where the top | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
executives of organisations are paying themselves big pay rises | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
where those at the lowest paid end of the organisation have had to have | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
either pay freezes or pay cuts. So if you had a maximum wage and pinned | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
your lowest paid workers to your highest paid workers, then the | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
highest paid workers would think very carefully about how much they | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
give themselves a pay rise because they would have to bring everybody | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
else up at the bottom as well. So yes, from me, yes to the maximum | :54:10. | :54:11. | |
wage. You, Sir? I think instead of a | :54:12. | :54:18. | |
maximum wage, I think it would be bet federal we made the people | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
earning the maximum wages pay their proper taxes which, as you can see, | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
is... APPLAUSE. | :54:25. | :54:34. | |
You, Sir? I'm a business bank manager for small local businesses | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
in Exeter and it's not the companies the size of Tim's that have got a | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
problem, it's the small owner managed businesses having to put up | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
their wages week in week out under pressure from their staff. That's | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
who I'm worried about, not the big businesses. Because of the minimum | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
wage? Because of the minimum wage and the staff expect step-ups as | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
well and it's the business owners taking less money home and earning | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
less profit because it's all going in wages now. Liam Fox? Well, to | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
answer the previous point before that, the chap raised the point | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
about the taxes. The richest 1% now in the UK pay 28% of all income tax | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
which is the highest it's been. Can you answer him because we only have | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
a moment left? I don't agree with a maximum wage. I'm sympathetic to the | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
small businesses because they are the ones who provide more employment | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
in the country tan anything else. I'm all for people making a profit | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
and making a lot of money if that's what they work hard for, people who | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
set up a small business, who grow it, sacrifice, don't have holidays, | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
so that they can get their business going. His point is the minimum wage | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
means other wages are going up? That is the point that's already been | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
made, it's where you set that minimum wage. I'm all for the fact | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
of having a system that there's a floor that no-one would fall below | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
but I have a problem with setting a maximum because those who work hard | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
ought to benefit from it. A big problem is the croney capitalism | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
where bankers get paid huge bonuses when the banks are losing money. | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
It's all very well get ago bonus and getting profit and income when you | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
are generating wealth but you should not be getting the same rewards when | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
you are consuming wealth. So in power shareholding. 60-seconds left. | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
That's what you have to do. Their money is being robbed by those | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
taking excessively high wages and if you give the shareholders the power, | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
then I think you will find this is naturally correct in the interest of | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
the shareholder. Presumably in BP the shareholders don't have the | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
power in the articles? They can set the reel Rail Maritime and Transport | :56:42. | :56:43. | |
Unionration every other year but this was the year in-between -- set | :56:44. | :56:51. | |
the remuneration every other year. I agree with you on that. The public | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
sector has a role to play too because I'm fed up with local | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
authorities paying their Chief Executives and hospitals paying | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
their Chief Executives huge amounts of money. They make the very same | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
argument that you did, Tim, that you don't attract the best person. I | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
remember public service when it was public service and the idea that | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
we'd have to pay more and more to get people to run our local | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
authorities and hospitals I think is wrong. OK. Time's up, I'm sorry. | :57:16. | :57:25. | |
So, join us next week, we are going to be in Hull, Andy Burnham for | :57:26. | :57:32. | |
Labour, Alex Salmond for the SNP among the panelists, it seems. | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
after that, we are in Manchester. There are the addresses on the | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
If you are listening on the website or call the number there: | :57:41. | :57:48. | |
If you are listening on the this glory continues with Question | :57:49. | :57:48. | |
Time extra time. It this glory continues with Question | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
telly, my thanks to our panel, and to all of you who came to take part | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
in this programme in Exeter. Until next Thursday from Question Time, | :57:59. | :57:59. | |
good night. | :58:00. | :58:03. |