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Tonight, we are in Doncaster. And this is Question Time. | :00:07. | :00:18. | |
Good evening and welcome, whether you are watching on television, | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
listening on the radio, to our audience and our panel. The | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
Conservative member of the European Parliament, one of the leading | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
lights of the campaign to leave the EU, Daniel Hannan. Labour's Shadow | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
Work and Pensions Secretary, Owen Smith. The leader of the SNP at | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
Westminster, Angus Robertson. The Green Party's only member in the | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
House of Lords, Jenny Jones. And from the TaxPayers' Alliance, Dia | :00:46. | :00:46. | |
Chakravarty. Before our first question, | :00:47. | :00:55. | |
don't forget Facebook, text or Twitter to comment | :00:56. | :00:56. | |
on what's said here. Lets have our first question from | :00:57. | :01:16. | |
Jason Leeson, please. On a scale of one to ten, how genuine is is Jeremy | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Corbyn's new-found support of the EU? Daniel Hannan. About two. The | :01:21. | :01:30. | |
guy has made a career out of not changing his mind and now for | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
political reasons he has to find a way of justifying switching to a | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
pro-EU position. And let's just think through the logic of what he | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
said today. He said, I'm in favour of the EU, but not this EU. I want a | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
completely different one, a social Europe with democracy and workers' | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
rights. Great, but that is not the one on the ballot paper. If the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Prime Minister's renegotiation taught us one thing, it is how | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
immune to reform Tom Howe intractable the European Union is. | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
Its second largest net contributor was about to vote on whether to | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
leave and it could not bring itself to make any changes. So the idea | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
that we will stick around and it will suddenly reform, we have had 40 | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
years of Brussels becoming more remote, more corrupt, less | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
democratic. What, in that record, makes us think that if we stick with | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
it a little bit longer it will suddenly become more congenial? | :02:32. | :02:32. | |
APPLAUSE Owen Smith. I would say it was about | :02:33. | :02:48. | |
a seven. Only seven? Yes, because he reflects the country on this, | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
Jeremy. He said today that he has made his mind up, and I think the | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
country is making its mind up. That is the point I'm trying to get | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
across, that Jeremy is someone who used to be opposed to the EU, | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
clearly voting against it in the 1970s, thought it was problematic | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
when he was on the backbenches of the Labour Party. And in the last | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
few years, perhaps even the last few weeks, he has come to a different | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
view, a view which is now I think united with the Labour movement. We | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
now feel collectively that we should stay within the European Union. The | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
reason he has come to that view, perhaps it is not a ten, but the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
reason he has come to that seven is because he things the jobs and | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
security we need in this country, the challengers to be met by this | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
country, whether tax avoidance or security for people, are best met by | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
us sticking together. That is at the heart of the Labour Party's core | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
beliefs, that we are stronger when we stick together. That is why he | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
has come, perhaps, on a journey. I think a lot of people in the country | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
are on that journey and I hope they get to the same place. What is | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
curious is when he was running for the leadership and was asked if he | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
would vote to leave he said, I would not rule out voting to leave. I | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
wonder whether it was Cameron's success in negotiating that finally | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
persuaded him. I don't think David Cameron persuades Jeremy Corbyn of | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
very much. Nothing else has changed in the year since he said he would | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
think of voting out. I have talked with him about this on several | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
occasions in the last few weeks and I genuinely think, like many of us | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
coming he has thought hard about whether we should be in or out and | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
has decided on balance that we should be in. I think that is a | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
reasonable, sensible view and I think lots of people will make | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
exactly the same choice. Do you think he might be up to ten out of | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
ten by the referendum? With a bit of luck. Jenny Jones, the Green Party | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
are all in favour of staying in, aren't they? Well, the parties in | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
favour of staying in the EU. Personally, I am a rebel and I am | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
voting out. APPLAUSE | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
The Green Party's analysis of the EU is that it is a badly flawed | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
organisation but it is better to stay in and try to reform it because | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
it does good at various levels. My personal view is that I agree with | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
the analysis, but it is unreformable. I regret that, because | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
I can see the value in many of the things the EU does. But at the same | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
time, for example they are doing fantastic things on air quality, | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
pressurising governments to clean up their act, to make sure we can | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
breathe our air, which is filthy in many cities. But at the same time it | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
is the EU's fault, because of corporate lobbying by various car | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
companies, that we took up so strongly with diesel and started | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
polluting towns and cities. So, with Daniel Hannan, you believe it is | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
unreformable. Dan and I are as one. Where do you stand, on the top left? | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
I agree with Jeremy, obviously. He properly takes the view that I do | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
that EU does have warts, and we know about them, but is it the right time | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
to come out, with the world being so unstable at the moment? | :06:25. | :06:25. | |
APPLAUSE Jenny, I did not ask, the question | :06:26. | :06:33. | |
was how genuine is Jeremy Corbyn's support. What is your answer? Two or | :06:34. | :06:41. | |
three at best. I feel deeply sorry for Jeremy because he seems to be | :06:42. | :06:43. | |
fitting into some sort of straitjacket within the Labour | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
Party. I have always said there is a place in the Green Party for him. We | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
have better social policies than the Labour Party these days and all the | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
green policies as well. I think Jeremy would fit in better with us. | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
What I wanted to ask was, do the panel actually feel that this is | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
really, the position on Europe, is really about ideology, this | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
referendum? What concerns me is that we are getting smoke and mirrors | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
politics about the choices, and not a clear debate. That is what | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
concerns me. In what way? At issue, what is it that concerns you? David | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
Cameron has issued contradictory statements on the European Union and | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
I feel that confuses people, when he is saying now that he wants to stay | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
in. Angus Robertson, this is getting like Strictly. One out of ten. You | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
can give your answer first. In Scotland we went through a | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
referendum process in 2014 so we have insight into how they happen. | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
One of the things that concerns me greatly is the extent to which, and | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
we are hearing it already, the personalisation of some of this. | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
Secondly, that the nature of some of the arguments are so unbelievably | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
aimed at scaring people. APPLAUSE | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
People in Scotland were not stupid, people in Doncaster and the rest of | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
the UK are not stupid either. I am pro-European. I wish Scotland and | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
the UK to remain within the European Union, but I would wish people to | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
make that decision to vote within the U -- to vote to remain within | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
the EU on the basis of confidence, positive arguments of why it is good | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
to be part of a large single market. I agree with Jeremy Corbyn, it is | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
not just an argument about a single market, but about workers' rights, | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
social rights, environmental progress. I know this argument is | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
lost sometimes, because it is about jobs and numbers and it is | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
confusing. Let Arsenal to forget how this came about, which is that we in | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
Europe had been unable to keep the peace between us for more than any | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
number of decades. After the Second World War, France and Germany and | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
then sometime later the UK got together and said, for all the | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
imperfections, for all the things that don't work well, and by | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
goodness there are a lot of things that need to be reformed and | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
improved, but we are far better working together as sovereign | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
states, and I would wish Scotland to be a sovereign state within the EU | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
at the top table two, but we are better working together in that | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
context. So it is not about Jeremy Corbyn and how persuaded I am. Am I | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
persuaded by his change? No, I don't find it tremendously persuasive, but | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
I do find the argument strong. So I am not going to second-guess the | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
motivation. APPLAUSE | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
On one out of ten, how genuine is is support for the EU? You see him week | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
after week, what do you think? I do think I have heard him ask a single | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
question about the European Union in the House of Commons since he became | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
leader of the Labour Party. If the European Union were an association | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
of sovereign states, no one would be against it and we would not be | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
having this referendum. Everyone is in favour of cooperating with | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
friends and allies. You would have to be insane to be against that. The | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
problem is that it has become remote, self-serving and corrupt. | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
And Angus is right, the arguments, the scare stories that it is the | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
only guarantee of equal pay, we had equal pay in an act in 1970 before | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
we joined. We had paid holidays introduced by Chamberlain in 1938. | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
The idea that we owe all of these things to Jean-Claude Juncker, | :10:42. | :10:43. | |
people know when they are being taken for. Dia Chakravarty, one to | :10:44. | :10:53. | |
ten, how genuine? Before I say anything I should make clear that | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
the TaxPayers' Alliance as an organisation of nearly 80,000 | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
supporters across the country, we don't take a position on this. We | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
have supporters in both camps, and staff members in both camps. Having | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
said that, I am going to give you two answers on these numbers, David. | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
I apologise in advance. As a person, Jeremy Corbyn is a one, which is | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
about where I stand. As Labour leader, he is probably about seven. | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
He said today that the Labour Party was overwhelmingly in favour of | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
staying within the EU, which I imagine is, I can understand that. | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
And the reason why I think he agrees with me as a human being and he is | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
at one, this is where I disagree with the lady at the back, where you | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
claimed Jeremy shares your views. I think he shares my views for | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
precisely the same reasons, which are as follows. I think that the EU | :11:47. | :11:54. | |
is an unaccountable body. Most people have no idea who their MEP | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
is. If you do not know who your MEP is, how are you going to hold them | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
to account? Working at Westminster, I know how difficult it is to hold | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
MPs to account, and this is another step removed. Secondly, it is a very | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
wasteful body. We pay our MPs... I am so sorry, this is not a personal | :12:17. | :12:28. | |
attack. Usain nobody knows who their MEP is. -- she says. The Sun had | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
eight photographs years ago and they said, can you identify your MEP. If | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
we were invisible, you would have got 12.5% picking the right one by | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
the law of averages, but it was less than that. So we have a negative | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
visibility, antimatter. Nobody feels European in the same sense that they | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
feel Swedish, Portuguese or whatever. | :12:54. | :12:54. | |
APPLAUSE If the EU had developed without | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
people like you as MEPs, saving all that money and it had just been the | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
governments of the countries, would it be better? Yes, if it were an | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
intergovernmental association that did not presume to legislate for | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
member states, that did not have a legal system that can strike down | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
legislation of member states, then we would all be in favour of that. | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
No one is proposing that the alternative to the EU is not talking | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
to our friends and allies. We want the right to live under our own laws | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
while trading with our friends around the world. | :13:32. | :13:32. | |
APPLAUSE The third point that bothers me is | :13:33. | :13:42. | |
that from outside the EU it looks very much like a cartel of rich | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
countries that keep all the poorer developing countries outside the | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
trade block. And that bugs me. That is done in my name. I don't like | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
that and I don't know who to complain to. So it is a very | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
problematic situation for me. For that reason, and I think Jeremy | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
Corbyn would agree with those reasons, I cannot see myself voting | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
in. The woman on the gangway. I think if we do leave the EU, in | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
spite of all the glorious things which Daniel Hannan thinks will | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
happen, it will be just like animal farm. Something equally hideous will | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
arise with several heads, costing twice as much again, but with the | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
added disadvantage that we will have hacked off all our good friends and | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
neighbours in Europe by saying, we will be your friend but under our | :14:34. | :14:34. | |
terms and conditions. First of all, I feel British and | :14:35. | :14:44. | |
European. I feel very at home in Europe. | :14:45. | :14:45. | |
APPLAUSE APPLAUSE | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
We can be fed a load of rubbish by the media for 20 years. The quote | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
from Rupert Murdoch saying he wants to leave the EU because in Downing | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
Street he gets listened to and in Brussels he gets ignored is telling | :15:02. | :15:09. | |
why the Sun are against the EU. If he gets listened to in Number Ten, | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
why is the Prime Minister staying in, not voting for Brexit? He still | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
gets listened to by David Cameron on a lot of other things. The man on | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
the right, I don't know if you are friends and agree with each other? | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
What I was going to say was, Owen's stated that the Labour Party has a | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
united position that it's pro-European, but how come there's | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
been a lack of cross party support. As a 17-year-old that can't vote in | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
the upcoming referendum, I find it absolutely insulting that to support | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
the in-campaign in such a divided form that it is, that compared to | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
the out-campaign is a shame on all that support Europe. It's simple. We | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
are making a specific case for Labour being in Europe. The | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
socialist case, today as Jeremy called it. He's genuinely come to | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
the view that we would see jobs in parts of Britain like Doncaster at | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
risk if we pulled out of Europe. In my part of the world, I know, Airbus | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
the great company based across the UK and in France this week only they | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
said and they support 15,000 jobs across the UK, they said this week | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
they wouldn't be in the UK if we were not in the UK. The world we've | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
got is one where we are in the EU right now and, if we vote to leave, | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
we'll see economic consequences for this country and jobs will be lost. | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
It isn't scaremongering, it's a statement of fact. | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
APPLAUSE We have created more jobs here than | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
in the other 27 member states put together. Plainly in the real word, | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
the world offive, not supposition, there is no lack of investment | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
coming in. We had exactly these arguments about the euro. Everyone | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
said the investment will go away and unemployment will rise. That did | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
happen in the eurozone. Can you name a single senior business person or | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
big company in this country who's advocating... Absolutely. I would | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
rather trust award-winning exporters like Dyson, legal general, Tate | :17:27. | :17:38. | |
Lyle... A simple question, do you think exporters will have exactly | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
the same deal in Europe as they have now, no tariffs? Yes. Or do you | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
think there'll be a bit of a tariff? I'm certain from 'll be no tariffs | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
at all. Better to go on evidence than supposition. There's in the a | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
single country in Europe, whether or not they are in the EU, that is | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
outside the tree trade area. You can go to non-EU Iceland to non-EU | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
Turkey and you do not come across a single EU trade barrier. To be fair, | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
you need to acknowledge then that if you are advocating the Norwegian | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
position which is not a member of the European Union but is a member | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
of the free trade association, that they still have to pay membership | :18:22. | :18:29. | |
subs. That is the way it works. My argument is, we should be better | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
reforming the long list of things that need reforming, rather than | :18:34. | :18:35. | |
taking ourselves out of the biggest single market in the world which by | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
the way has helped secure social rights, workers' right, gender | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
rights. These thingses matter. APPLAUSE. | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
Jason who asked the question, what is your mark for Corbyn out of ten? | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
We have been talking about Europe generally there, but going back to | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
Corbyn, he's been speaking about Europe for years. 40 years. He | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
should have stuck to what he believed in. | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
Yes. APPLAUSE. And we have been | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
vindicated me. Said the European Union will stop a left of centre | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
Government implementing its programme which is exactly what's | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
just happened in Greece. So I would not have voted for Alexis Tsipras, | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
but the case that Tony Benn under the Labour left used to make which | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
is democracy will be stop bid bureaucracy, has been absolutely | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
shown to be true. Another question here ready on Europe. We have heard | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
a lot of people pro--in, somebody who's in favour of out. Oh, my God! | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
I will take you in the second row from the back. I can't bring | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
everybody in. Nobody knows what will happen whether we stay in Europe or | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
leave Europe. I think it's about time politicians were honest. We | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
keep on getting this will happen, that will happen. Nobody knows. How | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
do you decide how to vote then? On what you see in your every day life. | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
You look around where you live and around the country, you see what you | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
see and you take a decision. I think our default position on Europe | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
should be, we are not paying, we will govern ourselves and, if you're | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
prepared to deal with us, we shall deal with you. OK. Thank you. | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
APPLAUSE. We'll move on. Time to talk more | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
about Europe, but there's a question because everybody wants to talk | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
about Europe. Over half the questions we had tonight were about | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
Europe. Question Time audiences are clearly not getting bored of that. | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
Andy Ramsbottom? Isn't it true that the only way to have control over UK | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
borders and immigration is to leave the European Union? | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
APPLAUSE. Owen Smith? I think it's clearly | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
true that if we weren't in the EU and wanted to be out of the single | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
market then Equitable exercise greater control, we could stop | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
having free movement of people. However, and Angus raised the | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
question about Norway earlier on, the reality is, the plain truth is | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
that all of the countries outside the EU that want to enjoy the | :21:23. | :21:30. | |
benefit of trade, Norway Switzerland, are subject to the same | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
rules. Norway has a higher proportion of immigrants versus its | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
country than the UK does, so does Switzerland and they also have to | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
enact their own national legislation, all of the EU rules... | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
Why do you say all the same thing would happen to Britain, a far | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
larger country than Switzerland or Norway? The gentleman who said a | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
moment ago said we don't know what is going to happen, that is right, | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
but we have a duty to lead and suggest what we think is likely as | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
politicians. On the basis of history and what we see around the rest of | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
Europe, the most likely scenario is that for us to be able to enjoy the | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
benefits of trade and take part in the biggest market across the world, | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
the 500 million people to whom we can sell and buy, we'll need to play | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
by the rules soyes, we can exercise more control but at what cost? Jenny | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
Jones? I don't think that in or out is going to make much difference to | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
levels of immigration because we have a moderately healthy economy, | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
people are always going to want to come and to get a piece of it and to | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
work here and personally, I think mile migration is a fantastic thing | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
because we need migrants. APPLAUSE. I just would like to point | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
out that migrants here in Britain pay more than their fair share of | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
taxes. APPLAUSE. | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
And they actually take less than their fair share of benefits. And so | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
migrants are actually good for Britain. The NHS would fall over | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
without enough migrants to fill the nursing jobs the service providers, | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
the doctors. APPLAUSE. But you are saying you | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
think there's no difference in your view in the ability to control | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
immigration even though every of the 500 or whatever million people in | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
the EU have the right to come here without question? You don't think it | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
will make any difference? I really don't. I think that migrants are | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
always going to want to come here, it's a very attractive country and | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
we need them. The difference is, at the moment, you have to let them in. | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
If you are out of the EU, will you still have to let them? ? What about | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
all the Brits that go abroad? We have a million Brits living in | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
Spain, two million in the rest of the EU and, not to mention Australia | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
and the US and so on, we are migrants too. All right. We have to | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
accept that they are a great thing. Dia Chakravarty? Well, as a first | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
generation immigrant, I happen to agree with Jenny, migration can be a | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
great thing. APPLAUSE. But I would like to take | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
it back to the point I was previously making about the EU, that | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
migration can be a great thing, free movement of people has benefitted | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
countries over the years. But, outside the EU, to the world, it | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
still looks very much like a cartel, so if you are outside the EU, even | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
if you have a skill that you can very well sell to the EU or the UK, | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
you can't bring it here as easily as you can than if you belong in the | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
EU. The EU is not really that free to the people outside that bloc and | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
I think that's a problem. Do you have a view about the level which | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
clearly Andy does, a view about the level of immigration? You say if we | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
left the EU, then it wouldn't be automatically getting in, you are | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
suggesting it would be easier to get inside the EU than it is at the | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
moment. You came from Bangladesh and you think it would be easier for | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
people to come from the Asian subcontinent to come here than it is | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
now? It would be beneficial to have a country where people can decide | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
what skill set of people can come into the country. That makes a lot | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
of sense. APPLAUSE. I want my country back and | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
I want freedom. APPLAUSE. When you say you want your | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
country back, what do you mean? I don't believe our country is free | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
any more. You only have to look at the European Union and what is going | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
on there. I want my country back, I want Britain to be Britain. I just | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
want. We are all so frustrated with all this talk about the EU and all | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
this rubbish we are hearing that. Gentleman there in the orange tie, | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
he knows what goes on in Europe. Absolutely. You wouldn't believe the | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
half of it. Angus Robertson, would you like to | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
answer her point directly? I think there is a challenge, because | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
outside the European Union, the UK and other states are able to | :26:34. | :26:40. | |
exercise border controls and within the European Union, there is free | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
movement of citizens within the European Union. We need to | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
understand there is a balance, because there's also rights to UK | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
citizens, the rights of the one million people from the UK who live | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
in Spain, the 300,000 people from the UK who live in France, the | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
nearly 300,000 UK passport holders who live in the Irish Republic. | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
There are huge advantages to people from UK to be able to live and work | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
elsewhere in Europe. Do you accept what Andy said, which was the only | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
way to have control over the borders is to leave the EU? Yes is the | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
answer. APPLAUSE. But, that is not what I | :27:18. | :27:26. | |
want. Because I'm in favour of people from this country being able | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
to live and work elsewhere in Europe too. I think we need to be honest. | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
APPLAUSE. We need to be honest. This is about sharing sovereignty and | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
there are up thes sides and downsides and anybody who's | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
suggesting there is not an issue with migration, with the | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
difficulties of millions of people who're fleeing for their lives, | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
please, and let's not forget that from Syria and elsewhere, and we | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
have responsibilities to deal with these issues, but let's not simplify | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
it down to being simply an issue of leaving the European Union and | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
everything will be fine. Because it will not. | :28:07. | :28:14. | |
OK. You, Sir? Well, if we come out the European Union and I want to | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
work in France, if I've got the skills, they'll let me work in | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
France. We don't have to be in the European Union for that. The woman | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
in the middle there, yes? I absolutely think we should stay in | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
Europe because we... APPLAUSE. We are talking about the | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
people in Britain going outside to have country to work in the rest of | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
Europe, but what about all the national companies that have come | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
here to build the car manufacturers here and build their products here. | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
If we are not part of the EU, they won't be able to sell their products | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
to the people all over the world who have trade agreements and it could | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
take years to build those trade agreements. So what about those | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
jobs? The key word in Andy's question was control. I'm in favour | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
of legal immigration. Economic migration. I think this country | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
benefits from the energy and enterprise of people prepared to | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
uproot themselves and cross half the world in some cases to come here. I | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
also think we are a generous one they will always make space for | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
people in need of sanctuary. But if we are to accept a measure of inward | :29:24. | :29:32. | |
migration, in return we ask for a sense of knowledge of who comes in. | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
We have a crazy policy where we have to open our borders to 600 million | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
people who happen to hold EU passports, but as Dia says, this | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
means in practise we have toe keep out people who may have family links | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
here, whose families may have fought for us in the two wars when we were | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
in trouble. There will be those who've had huge difficulties | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
Britaining auntie over for a wedding, never mind trying to setsle | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
here, because we have had to restrict visas for nationals in | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
order to free up unlimited space for people with no connection to this | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
country. It's unfair, immoral and makes no sense economically. | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
The migration crisis, like the Euro crisis, is deteriorating before our | :30:20. | :30:27. | |
eyes. Because we kept our border checks, and because we kept the | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
pound, we have other options. We don't need to make those problems | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
our problems. And the choice we face on the 23rd of June is, do we want | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
to embroil ourselves in the bailouts and more integration that is coming | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
because of the deteriorating crisis on the continent, or should we | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
follow a different trajectory, reorienting to the wider world, the | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
bits that are in fact growing? You seem to have got your passport | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
there. You don't need a passport for Doncaster. I was so desperate to | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
come that I flew in from Strasbourg to do it. | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
We go on to another question. Thank you very much for all that, but we | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
had half an hour and we have other questions to come. Join us in Exeter | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
next week, or in whole or week after. You can apply on our website. | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
I will give the details at the end. The next question from David | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
Clayton. Has the time now come to abolish inheritance tax, considering | :31:40. | :31:48. | |
it is a tax on already taxed income? This was raised in the House of | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Commons, talking about inheritance tax and David Cameron's inheritance. | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
Dia Chakravarty, is it right to abolish inheritance tax? Yes, I | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
agree. It is indeed double taxation. There are other good reasons as | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
well. I think the most compelling reason, and this is why it | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
inheritance tax is the most hated tax in the country. There was a poll | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
done last year and it was found that even people who do not expect to pay | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
it hate it. It goes against the basic human nature and instinct to | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
provide for one's family and leave something behind. That is why it | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
just is such an unnatural law, that it is difficult to sell to anybody, | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
really. The third point is that it is a hugely complex piece of | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
legislation. It takes up 10% of our insanely complicated tax code, and | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
it brings in about 0.7% of revenue. And there are so many different | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
loopholes in that piece of legislation. You can declare it as | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
agricultural land and that means something else, etc. And some people | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
bring up the quality point about taking it from the very rich and | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
giving it to someone else, redistribution. The reality is that | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
the super-rich, the people at the top will always have different ways | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
of getting round it, precisely because it is such... | :33:20. | :33:19. | |
APPLAUSE Precisely because it is such a | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
complicated piece of legislation. So the people who are stuck with it are | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
the aspirational middle-class right in the middle. Since 2010, the | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
number of people paying inheritance tax has quadrupled. It is the people | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
in the middle who feel the pinch, so absolutely we should abolish it. | :33:42. | :33:42. | |
APPLAUSE Jenny Jones, do you think it is | :33:43. | :33:52. | |
right that parents should leave things to their children and be | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
taxed as low as possible, or are you in favour of inheritance tax as it | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
stands? As a general view on tax, I am very in favour of paying tax. At | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
the cost of a subversion of it is the cost of a civilised society. | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
Taxes pay for the things we all need at some point in our lives, whether | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
hospital care, schools or roads. But inheritance tax, I do think is | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
iniquitous. It is absolutely wrong that it is twice taxed money. There | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
are better ways. If we closed a view of the tax avoidance gaps... | :34:28. | :34:28. | |
APPLAUSE These legal loopholes that were | :34:29. | :34:38. | |
never designed to prevent people paying tax, but people have managed | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
to find and get round the regulations. Or follow up on some of | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
the tax evasion that is happening, which this Government doesn't seem | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
at all interested in getting to grips with. Another Green rebellion | :34:53. | :35:00. | |
before our very eyes. No inheritance tax. I am embarrassed to say I do | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
not know the party policy on inheritance tax, so I hope I am not | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
rebelling on this as well, but I think it is a ridiculous tax and it | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
should go. I am proud to be a taxpayer and proud that I should be | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
able to turn every single amount of money that I do learn and I should | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
be to spend or give it to whoever I'd choose I want to give it to. It | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
should not have to be double taxed. You, sir, on the third row. My big | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
worry is that we are creating a very selfish and insular society. This | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
idea that tax in any shape or form is wrong. As you rightly said, we | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
need these things to pay for the NHS, to pay for schools, to pay for | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
benefits. I feel there are quite a lot of people who feel as though, I | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
shouldn't pay any tax because... Well, maybe they earn enough to use | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
private health care, private schools and things of that nature, things I | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
know a lot of the Tory party already enjoy. | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
APPLAUSE My worry is that we should be | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
looking at tax as more of a moral obligation, than a legal obligation. | :36:19. | :36:26. | |
Change the narrative, yes. You want him to pay your tax bill. If he is | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
keen on paying tax, he can pay mine, for sure. | :36:32. | :36:41. | |
You need the NHS. I pay my tax and I am happy to, but we pay too much. | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
One of my early questions would have been, why does it cost so much to be | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
in Europe. It's ridiculous. It's because there are too many people | :36:52. | :36:53. | |
with first-class tickets on the gravy train. One of the things that | :36:54. | :37:01. | |
came up in the House of Commons, people are saying that as long as | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
you live seven years after you give money you do not have to pay | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
inheritance tax. Is that right? Should Labour crackdown on | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
Americans? Do you approve of people giving money to their children. -- | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
should Labour crackdown on inheritance. The one good thing that | :37:18. | :37:26. | |
has come out of the extraordinary unseemly mess about tax and the | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
Panama Papers is that we are at last in this country having a serious | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
conversation about tax. Because for 30 or 40 years in this country, the | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
debate about tax, the crucial debate about how we raise enough revenue to | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
pay for hospitals and schools and all of the things to look after our | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
children and grandparents, has just sat there, with neither party, | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
frankly, bold enough to grab it. I am pleased that coming out of the | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
Panama Papers, which has revealed, as Dia says, that so many people who | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
are extraordinarily wealthy in this country and across the world are | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
avoiding their taxes, and in doing that they are robbing the rest of | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
us. APPLAUSE | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
Why, then, did Labour raise the level at which you have to start | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
paying inheritance tax by nearly a third? I think that was a mistake, | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
and I think the truth is that we have a yawning gap in this country | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
and across the Western world between a few percentage points of the | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
population who have an extraordinary amount of wealth, and the vast | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
majority who struggle to get by. If we don't have wealth taxes, and | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
inheritance tax at some level is a wealth tax, then we will continue to | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
see larger and larger amounts of money gather at the top of society, | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
in the hands of those few percentage points. And we will not see the rest | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
of society, including people here in Doncaster, enjoy the benefits of the | :38:57. | :38:58. | |
social provisions that come through those taxes. So we need to be tough | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
about this. You would like to reverse the change Labour made in | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
office on the threshold? I would reverse the change the Tories made | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
recently. Which one? They changed inheritance tax recently and made it | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
even easier to get rid of money, in the last but one Budget. They | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
changed it twice since they came in. Crucially, the decisions they have | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
made on tax reveal all you need to know about the Tories. They cut the | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
top rate for millionaires in this country. Everyone earning over | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
?150,000 got a big bar. In the last Budget, they took money from | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
disabled people. The wrong priorities. The woman up there. I | :39:41. | :39:50. | |
find the question for Doncaster quite ironic, because I see lots of | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
women, my friends. I am going to lose my job in two weeks because the | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
Tories have been stealing our tax and domestic violence services are | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
closing. Women's aid is closing in two weeks, having been here for 40 | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
years, because of the Tories. Because of the Tories doing what? We | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
talk about the Panama Papers. It is the elephant in the room. The | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
question about inheritance tax is a small issue. The question of Google, | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
boots, you name it, Starbucks, the question of Tories, I don't know how | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
you dare talk about Europe being corrupt when we have Cameron who | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
said he would look after the vulnerable in 2010, and he has | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
stripped us of everything. APPLAUSE | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
Daniel Hannan. Thank you very much. The question was should we abolish | :40:45. | :40:54. | |
inheritance tax. Address what she has said, in major attack on your | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
party. Well, first of all, the big tax dodge, if you want to look for | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
one, is that Euro clap to not pay tax at all. In 2010, we were told a | :41:05. | :41:15. | |
lie, that we had to take austerity. We had to lose our jobs, our | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
libraries, house in Bath 's. And do you know what happened? Cameron did | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
not look after the vulnerable. He made sure the rich got richer and | :41:25. | :41:32. | |
richer, and the gap is like that! APPLAUSE | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
I would like to get back to the original question but since you say | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
it is not reasonable to link it to Europe, the Institute for Fiscal | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
Studies, between 2010 - 2015, during the coalition parliament, all of the | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
austerity cuts put together saved ?36 billion. It is a lie. Please | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
take the microphone away while Daniel answers, otherwise we can't | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
hear what he says. We heard what you said. We want to listen to him now. | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
You may not want to, but everyone else wants to. We can all remember | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
the circumstances in 2010, we had a bigger deficit than Greece and we | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
were in a bad place. We had to make some savings. According to the IFS, | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
although savings put together came to a total of ?36 billion. Over the | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
lifetime of that same Parliament, our gross contribution to the EU | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
budget was ?85 billion, our net contribution was ?42 billion. So it | :42:38. | :42:39. | |
is all the worry well to say you must not link the two things. Even | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
if you take the net figure, we could have wiped out every single one of | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
the austerity measures and still had enough left over to take a penny off | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
income tax. Let's talk about cuts to disabled people. If you are handing | :42:56. | :43:06. | |
taxes to millionaires... Hold on, Daniel. I know you are keen to go on | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
making the point about Europe but her question wasn't about that. Even | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
if it is Brexit, it is two years before, while you negotiate to get | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
out. She is talking about since the last election and measures taken | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
since 2010. It is all right, madam. I will do it for you for the moment. | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
Local services in Doncaster are up to the council in Doncaster. And | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
quite rightly so. The Government has cut the funding. | :43:38. | :43:47. | |
Can you feel the anger? Can you feel how unhappy people are in Doncaster | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
and elsewhere... APPLAUSE | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
About the fact that we know we have been played by an ultra rich elite | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
in this country and around the world, who fiddled their taxes, | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
whose salt it away in tax havens. And this government says the biggest | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
problem when it comes to the abuse is the abuse of benefits. | :44:12. | :44:12. | |
APPLAUSE In poor communities, pursuing the | :44:13. | :44:24. | |
poorest in society. I think the abuse of benefits is wrong, but | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
let's understand the order of the abuse that is going on. Just over ?1 | :44:28. | :44:35. | |
billion is estimated to go in the direction of abuse of benefits. The | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
tax gap, from people who evade it and avoid it, is more than ?30 | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
billion. That is going up. I ask you then, | :44:44. | :44:56. | |
why is it that the staffing levels in the HMRC who deem with pursuing | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
the richest in society are significantly less than they used to | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
pursue the poorest in society. It shows the priority of the Tories and | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
people should be very, very angry about that. | :45:11. | :45:19. | |
APPLAUSE. You said in the House of Commons they only had 300 people, | :45:20. | :45:30. | |
they said 26,000 people today. I asked about the ultra-rich. They | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
have 26,000 people doing enforcement and more than 400 on high net worth. | :45:36. | :45:45. | |
On papers, it's the ultra-rich. I'm asking why are there so few people | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
relative to the staffing levels dealing with the ultra-rich taking | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
their money elsewhere and not paying for hospitals and roads and Public | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
Services in Doncaster and they should be doing that. When an but | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
thes started speaking, there was a large shout of "rubbish" from | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
someone. Must have been me again! Oh, no, not you? Can you remember | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
when the banks went down and the deficit and the national debt. Has | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
everyone forgot about that or was that made up? Do you remember? | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
That's why there's been cuts and austerity. That's why we have got to | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
close the gap. People think it was made up. | :46:29. | :46:42. | |
This Government is closing HMRC. You would have thought they wanted to | :46:43. | :46:51. | |
get the tax money in. Wait a minute. The man in red. You | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
were talking over there and I'll keep the panel quiet for a minute. | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
There's over ?30 million in unpaid tax. If we close the tax loopholes, | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
get that ?30 billion in tax, we don't need to make austerity | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
measures, there we go. APPLAUSE. Do you want to come back | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
on this, Owen? The Gentleman's got a point. The truth is that the tax | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
gap, the gap between how much we should be getting and how much we | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
are getting in, according to the Government itself has gone up on | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
their watch. If they'd been so careful to clamp down on tax | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
avoidance as David Cameron would have us all believe, it would it | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
wouldn't be rising, it's up to ?34 billion. The question is, what are | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
the choices and priorities of the Government? Are they choosing in | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
this period of austerity, to ask those with the wider shoaleders to | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
bear the biggest burden, or are they instead looking for the little man, | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
whether it's the small business or individuals here and across the | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
country to carry the burden and I fear the last six years has seen the | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
little manukary the burden far too often. What would you be doing if | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
you were leading an independent Scotland with no money? | :48:12. | :48:19. | |
APPLAUSE. No, no, thank you Angus. We'll come | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
back to that. You in the green shirt there. I've heard it all now. | :48:26. | :48:32. | |
Inheritance tax is all Europe's fault. We look at the big guys who | :48:33. | :48:43. | |
avoid the tax, you know, the Googles of this world, middle tax is going | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
to hit a lot of people, especially in the London and the south-east | :48:48. | :48:56. | |
where they live in a din edgy semi. We may have to look at inheritance | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
tax for London and the South East and do a lot lower, for the rest of | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
the country, because a lot of the people who live in the south-east | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
have lived in these house force the last however many years and they've | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
gone up in value and there's nothing stopping them. We are talking about | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
cutting inheritance tax but we should be looking at the tax that's | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
gone up in the decades and is affecting the tax in the poorest | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
society. Stop VAT, you will get people buying again. | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
ALL SPEAK AT ONCE It will affect energy bills and the | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
whole economy. Hold on. Owen did just say VAT should be | :49:39. | :50:00. | |
abolished. A very good point. A very good point. Labour policy now under | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
your leadership to abolish VAT? No, cut VAT. The last Labour Government | :50:07. | :50:14. | |
cut VAT. We saw an extra ?5 billion in the economy. That cannot be done | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
while we are members of the European Union. In South America it's 5%, | :50:19. | :50:26. | |
but, you know. The man in the spectacles at the back? We have got | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
away from the real issue here. No, really? ! Which is inheritance tax. | :50:31. | :50:38. | |
Yes? I was reading on the equality trust website that one of the | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
reasons why people are rich in the UK is because they were born rich | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
and that's the purpose behind inheritance tax it's to deal with | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
that - shut up! The purpose behind the tax is to deal with that | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
trouble, whether it's an efficient tax is the question that needs to be | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
answered and if it's not we need to look at other ways to address the | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
issue of how prosperity wealth is derived from who your parents are, | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
rather than what you work for. APPLAUSE. | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
One more question? I don't disagree the gentleman's point about possibly | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
banding to it different levels because one of the points Cameron | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
made when commenting only finally deciding to tell us the truth was it | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
was only ?20,000 that he got, well, at the time, ?20,000 or ?30,000, was | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
two years' wages to somebody up here, so maybe you tax it based on | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
how much money the person it's going to's got rather than the gee | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
graphical area or something like that. OK. Ian Thompson, a last | :51:44. | :51:52. | |
question for us? At what stage is a politician's private life wandering | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
into the public interest. This is about the Culture Secretary John | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
Whittingdale and the stories that have emerged about him in the press | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
and about whether they should or shouldn't have done. Jenny Jones? I | :52:04. | :52:11. | |
believe that even Tory politicians deserve a private life. There's | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
something odd about this story because it was about actually the | :52:16. | :52:25. | |
sort of thing like a kiss-and-tell so I'm curious why this story didn't | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
run. There should be one rule for all Preferably that people | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
confidence a private life and that, when you have sex between consenting | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
adults, then that seems to be OK in most people's books. Hang on, so you | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
think it's OK to have a private life but you are curious why the press | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
didn't run it, those things are in conflict. Not at all. You think it | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
should have been run? In this instance I'm surprised they didn't | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
run it, they are usually quick to run stories about Blixes doing | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
anything wrong -- politicians doing anything wrong. Going to the, | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
cutting to the chase, the idea that it was put about is because he had | :53:08. | :53:14. | |
influence over the press they thought they could hold him hostage, | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
do you think that's right? I have absolutely no idea what the truth | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
is. Personally I think politicians, everyone should be able to have a | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
private life. Owen Smith? I think even politicians should be entitled | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
to have a private life and, therefore I don't think there is any | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
public interest ordinarily in the sex lives of politicians. In this | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
instance, I think there is... You think they are boring. There is a | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
question to be asked, which is because this man, John Whittingdale, | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
is in charge of determining whether we are going to have the second half | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
of the Leveson Inquiry into phone hacking, into the corruption between | :53:58. | :53:59. | |
the police and the press that lay at the heart of the awful phone hacking | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
scandal that saw Millie Dowler's phone hacked and all of those other | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
dreadful things happen, John Whittingdale was someone very much | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
in favour when he was in charge of the culture committee, of the | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
Leveson Inquiry taking place. Can you get to the point... Well, I know | :54:20. | :54:28. | |
he's now changed his mind. What are you saying? If there's a question to | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
be asked, he can announce either he's going to have the second part | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
of the Leveson Inquiry and then there would be no evidence to | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
suggest there was no undue influence on him or he could say there was and | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
therefore I shouldn't take part in this inquiry. What about if it | :54:46. | :54:50. | |
wasn't and he shouldn't take part in the second part of this If he's | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
changed his mind... So you are using this to bully him? I'm using this to | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
ask a genuine question as to whether this important inquiry's been put on | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
the ling finger by the Tory party and was there any reason for this | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
minister wanting to do that? Daniel? I think if you are going to allege | :55:11. | :55:20. | |
something, allege it, but don't insinuate, it's cowardly. The reason | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
this story is not run because it wasn't a story. Single man has | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
girlfriend, it's not exactly Watergate. The newspapers didn't see | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
it as a huge issue and nor should they. What was extraordinary, all | :55:34. | :55:41. | |
those campaigning for newspapers not to run these stories, when the | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
system worked, when they'd got the outcome they were calling for, they | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
complained because they happen not to like the person who they think | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
should have been exposed and we can claw our own conclusions about their | :55:55. | :56:01. | |
motivation and hypocrisy. Dia Chakravarty? It's a non-story, | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
as Dan says, a single adult having a relationship with another single | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
adult so there is no story. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
anything untoward happening so in the absence of that, it seems very | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
much in this case in particular the newspapers can't really win. If they | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
had gone ahead and published this non-story as I think it is, it would | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
have been entirely plausible that the campaigners would have said, | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
they are only publishing this story and making a male of it because they | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
have a grudge against this person, John whiting gale and now that they | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
haven't published it it seems the suggestion is something shady is | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
going on, but in the absence of any evidence, I don't see what the story | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
is or all the fuss is about? Angus? I was disgusted, it was a gross | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
invasion of someone I oppose politically and his private life. If | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
there are serious allegations to make, make them, don't give some | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
newspapers an excuse to print pictures of you, the woman you were | :57:08. | :57:12. | |
going out with, what she did et cetera, this is the same excuse and | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
tactic used in previous decades to say that gay men and women couldn't | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
serve in public life bawchz they could be blackmailed on different | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
issues. It was wrong then, it's wrong now. If there are allegations | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
that can be substantiated, make that argument. Make that argument. And | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
provide the evidence. APPLAUSE. So you disagree with Owen | :57:35. | :57:42. | |
Smith on this? Profoundly. The Labour Party let itself down by | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
allowings those who'd wish to print invasions of someone's privacy, and | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
they gave a... Come on, come off it, come off it. They gave a very slim | :57:54. | :58:00. | |
excuse. If there was evidence... If the Labour Party raised this issue, | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
the BBC chose to raise this issue. ... Some of your colleagues weren't | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
prepared to answer the question on the radio because they were so | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
embarrassed by what was being said. Owen, a last word to you, pause we | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
are running out of time? Why is it the second part of the Leveson | :58:19. | :58:29. | |
choir's not gone ahead? The Prime Minister promised Millie Dowler's | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
parents that it would go ahead. Our time is up. We have to stop. We are | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
going to be in Exeter next week. We have Liam Fox for the Tories, Kate | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
Howie for Labour, Paddy Ashdown for themselveses and the man who reasons | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
Wetherspoons so you can all come about your complaints about that. | :58:51. | :58:58. | |
And the week after we are in Hill. -- we are in Hull. If you are on | :58:59. | :59:05. | |
Five Live, as you know, the debate goes on through the early hours on | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
Question Time extra time, but here, the debate has to come to an end. My | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
thanks to our panel, to all of you who came to Doncaster tonight to | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
take part. And to you for watching, thank you. Good night. | :59:24. | :59:27. |