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Good evening. This is Question Time from Ilford, east London. | :00:07. | :00:20. | |
Welcome to you, whether you are watching on television, listening on | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
the radio. Welcome to our panel. Conservative business Mr, and -- | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
Anna Soubry. Labour's shadow Leader of the House of Commons, Chris | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
Bryant. Ukip MP Douglas Carswell. Economist Ruth Lea, and novelist and | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
author of Trainspotting, Irvine Welsh. | :00:39. | :00:51. | |
Thank you very much. Before our first question, don't forget | :00:52. | :01:00. | |
Facebook, Twitter and text. You can comment on, argue with them disagree | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
with everything said tonight. Our first question which comes from | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
Michael Bond, please. Is it fair for David Cameron to use taxpayers' | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
money to support one side of the EU referendum debate? This is the | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
announcement that a brochure will be given at a cost of just over ?9 | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
million to everybody in the country. Irvine Welsh. No, it is obviously | :01:25. | :01:32. | |
not fair. It is very unfair and should not be allowed. The same kind | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
of thing happened in the Scottish referendum. A whole lot of one-sided | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
propaganda. The same thing is going to happen here. There is no way it | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
can be justified. APPLAUSE | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
Anna Soubry. It is absolutely the right thing to do. You expect from | :01:53. | :02:02. | |
your Government that it should take a view, especially on the most | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
important decision, I think, that will be taken for actually many | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
generations, and that is whether we stay in or leave the European Union. | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
You would expect your Prime Minister and your Government to have a view | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
and we do. We believe we are stronger, safer and better off in | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
the EU. I completely agree and I think that this booklet, a copy of | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
which I happen to have, sets out the arguments and also begins to | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
establish the facts. When I go out and talk to people, people say they | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
want to know what the facts are, they want to know what the arguments | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
are. I think it is the duty of Government to take a lead. Somebody | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
has to take a lead in this. Be stronger in campaign is excellent | :02:49. | :02:50. | |
and we are waiting for the opposition to step up to the plate, | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
too, and make the case, because we have to make that argument. It is | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
not just about my generation but about my children and my | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
grandchildren's future. That point is well taken, but Michael Bond's | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
question was whether it is right to use taxpayers' money to support only | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
one side of the referendum debate. The electoral commission said today, | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
we don't think the Government should have done it. They are entitled to | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
their opinion. They are in charge, organising the referendum. They are | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
entitled to their view but I think it is absolutely right that the | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
Government has a view and is prepared to go out and make the | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
case. You do not mind being rebuked by the electoral commission? We will | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
have a friendly fallout. Douglas Carswell. It is absolutely not right | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
that this money is spent, Michael. APPLAUSE | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
We are told there is no money for junior doctors and GPs but the | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
Government manages to find nearly ?10 million to tell us what to | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
think. That is disgraceful. The Government promised during the | :04:02. | :04:03. | |
passage of the legislation that the Government would not be a lead | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
campaigner, those are the words of David Liddington on the floor of the | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
House of Commons last year. It is awful that in the same month that | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
the Government has found this money in my own constituency a hospital | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
has been closed -- hospital ward has been closed to save money. And it is | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
propaganda. It claims Britain has special status in the EU, which is | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
false. It claims it will allow us to keep control of our borders, which | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
is false. This is propaganda put out by Number Ten because they are | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
panicking. They were expecting at this stage to be ten or 15 points | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
ahead in the referendum. They are starting to panic and doing it at | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
our expense. What do you mean by propaganda? Do you mean it is lies? | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
Is that what you are saying? They imply in their pamphlet that in | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
order to trade with the European Union we need to be in the European | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
Union and that is demonstrably false. They say we will have special | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
status in the EU as a result of David Cameron's new deal. Nowhere in | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
the text of his so-called new Deal is the word special status used. | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
This is Government propaganda at our expense and it is disgraceful. | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
APPLAUSE Chris Bryant, is it legitimate for | :05:24. | :05:31. | |
the Government to say they are backing Remain and are entitled to | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
put this out? I am not David Cameron's biggest fan on this panel | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
so it is not my job to defend him. And I can think of lots of other | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
ways of spending ?9 million in my own constituency in the Rhondda, for | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
instance. But I watch Question Time nearly every week, I and one of | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
those sad people. Nothing sad about it at all! You get my point. Every | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
time Europe is debated there will be a member of the audience who says, | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
why when people just give us the facts. Yesterday afternoon I was | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
doorknocking in the hail and sunshine, both at the same time, and | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
a woman said to me, I just want to see the facts. One fact I want to | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
put into this, which is that in actual fact, the Government will pay | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
for both sides, because there is freepost provided to both be in and | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
out campaign. I am passionate in favour of staying in and I'm sick | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
and tired of the out campaign only obsessing about process points | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
rather than getting into the substance of the matter. Because | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
here is the thing, I start from the fundamental principle, I am a Labour | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
person and I believe we achieve more by our common endeavour than we do | :06:50. | :06:55. | |
on our own. That is the same in the European Union. The big issues that | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
face us as a country, whether climate change, terrorism, | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
international crime or drugs, whatever it is, we need to be | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
permanently cooperating on a day-to-day basis with our closest | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
allies in Europe. That is why I will fight all my life to stay in the | :07:13. | :07:14. | |
European Union. APPLAUSE | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
There are a number of hands up in the audience, but Ruth Lea, you can | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
have your say. Is it fair for this money to have been used for this? | :07:27. | :07:35. | |
Certainly not. It should not be taxpayers who pay for this. Ahead of | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
a general election, would you think the Government of the day would use | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
taxpayers up the money to put out propaganda for the election? Of | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
course not. And I'm afraid it is propaganda. When you say these are | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
the facts, they are not at all. I would like to read out what this is | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
about. It says on the front, why the government believes voting to remain | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
in the EU is the best decision for the UK. I have to say, I had a quick | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
look on the website today and it was half truths and misleading | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
information all the way through. For example, it was talking about a | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
trade deal with the European Union. I want a trade deal with the | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
European Union. I'm sure everybody does. Then we would say, I have to | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
stick to all the rules. Do all the other countries have to stick to the | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
rules? Does Mexico, does career, do any of these countries? They are not | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
actually in Europe. But Norway, which as I understand it is the kind | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
of arrangement you want for Britain... No, it is not. What do | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
you want, for us to be like North Korea? Excuse me, that is a very | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
silly thing to say because North Korea does not have a close | :08:55. | :08:56. | |
relationship with anybody. APPLAUSE | :08:57. | :09:08. | |
If you would stop interrupting me for half a second, I will tell you. | :09:09. | :09:18. | |
Let's be honest, I want a trade agreement with the European Union, | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
of course. And identity any reason why that shouldn't be negotiated. We | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
are good trading partners now, we have a huge trade deficit with the | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
European Union and I would have thought any German car exporter | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
would want to continue with that. I would like to see a trade agreement, | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
but when it comes to the rest of it, like security, would we be better | :09:39. | :09:48. | |
off? You ask me what relationship I want and I have told you, OK. You | :09:49. | :09:59. | |
haven't. I agree the government need to set out their position but I | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
don't think they needed ?9 million in the 21st-century when they could | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
have used online social media, and for those that don't have access, | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
they could have put things in libraries and post offices. So the | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
money was wasted but the idea isn't wrong. In the second row. I have not | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
decided which way I am voting but from my government I would have | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
expected a balanced view in terms of the pros and cons for either | :10:27. | :10:27. | |
decision. APPLAUSE | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
Anna Soubry, can you answer that. Why doesn't this have pros and cons? | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
It is right that the Government has a view. We have a view on all things | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
and a very strong view on this. Ruth says she wants a trade deal with | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
Europe but cannot give us the detail. That is not the policy of | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
everyone that wants to leave the EU. Douglas' leader does not want us to | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
trade with that single market, 500 million people across the Channel. | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
And it is really important that we understand what do they want, what | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
will it look like, because Chris made a very good point. We disagree | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
on almost everything, nearly everything. We agree on gay issues, | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
for example. Did you just call me darling? I am so sorry. This is | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
important because when we talk about the deal of countries like Norway, | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
they pay the money, get the free movement of Labour and goods, they | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
pay for all of that but they don't sit in Europe making decisions about | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
the future of Europe and how it operates. Irvine Welsh, what is your | :11:41. | :11:52. | |
view of this? In general terms, I have never got too excited about the | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
referendum one way or the other. I think overwhelmingly people feel | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
trapped into a global economic system with all these elite bodies, | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
of which the EU is one, the IMF, the World Bank would be others. Their | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
own governments would be others. To me, it seems to be whether citizens | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
get shafted more easily within or outside the EU, it seems to be two | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
elites arguing about the best way to impose neoliberalism and a debt | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
economy upon the citizens of this country. Do you think it is right to | :12:29. | :12:36. | |
offer the choice in a referendum, or are you saying it is a spurious | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
choice? It is spurious because life goes on very much in the same way. | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
We have seen how the global economy operates to the advantage of very | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
few people and the disadvantage of many. But you can't defend the EU as | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
an institution. You can't defend something that is undemocratic, | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
something that is led by commissioners rather than... If you | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
had a vote... Do you have a vote? I don't. I probably would not bother. | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
If you forced me to vote, I would vote to leave, basically. | :13:12. | :13:22. | |
It will be really interesting to see what the Leave side would do if they | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
had the money. It seems another cheap joke that they can throw to | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
say the Government's doing this, but what can they do, they are getting | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
taxpayers money too, they should use it. They have got enough business | :13:37. | :13:38. | |
interest that they could easily fund it. Douglas? One of the reasons why | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
I think this leaflet is so unfair is precisely because on this one | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
leaflet, the Government will spend ?9.3 million, that is more than the | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
entire budget of the vote Leave campaign. That vote Leave budget has | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
to be raised entirely through doe nations, it's not taxpayers money. | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
By law, we are not allowed to spend more than ?7 million on that. Before | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
the referendum's even formally begun, the other side's had more | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
money on this one leaflet than we'll have through the entire campaign. I | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
think that's unfair. APPLAUSE. | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
The woman on the left? I wish they'd been in business, some of these | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
people, because I traded with Europe right the way through my working | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
life and we didn't have to have these trade agreements you are | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
talking about. You talk nonsense. Frankly none of you have ever had a | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
proper job which is a bit of a problem and if you had, you would | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
understand what I'm saying to be true. If you work for Europe, | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
they'll want to trade with you and they will not turn away good | :14:38. | :14:39. | |
business. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. | :14:40. | :14:48. | |
So you're not concerned, or you are voting Brexit? I'm voting Brexit | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
everything and I'm going to follow Liam Fox's advice and when they | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
are... Has he had a proper job? He was a doctor at one point. I'm going | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
to post the leaflet back to David Cameron in Number Ten so they can | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
read them themselves. Exactly. We have all got the address. | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
Absolutely. The man with spectacles in the third | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
row from the back? It's really quite ironic, we usually expect our | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
Governments, when they can't, to be able to step up, have a few | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
difficult decisions to take and when it comes to this when they have take | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
an view on what should happen on June 23rd, everybody goes off | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
complaining and I find that very, very strange this. Debate I think is | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
too narrow on the whole. Not just about trade and, by the way, I think | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
we need to focus on geographics a little more. The reason why we trade | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
so much with the European Union is because we are only 20 miles off | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
Calais and we are joined by a tunnel and the reason why we have a trade | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
deficit with the European Union at the moment is because we are very, | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
very unproductive as an economy, we are not producing enough high wage, | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
high skill jobs that we need to compete, but this is more about the | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
economy. This is about how we work with others where a decision that's | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
made over in Shanghai affects our daily lives here. I would prefer to | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
have some influence and a decision, a choice, in how that is arranged, | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
rather than isolate myself, insulate myself, invite these problems along | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
so an extent it will cost far more in the long run to deal with them | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
until we have finally got the message? You? Douglas Carswell, my | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
hero! A man speaks up. I'll tell you what, that ?9.3 million should not | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
be used as a piece of Government propaganda, it should be invested | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
back into the British people. You know, I read a recent statistic, | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
9,000 veterans, what are we doing about them? That ?9.3 million should | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
be going to them. The junior doctors, the NHS, our own people. | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
Not being invested into a piece of propaganda. | :17:11. | :17:13. | |
APPLAUSE. All right. A man who speaks up in | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
the audience too, thank you very much. I think at this stage, we want | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
to take a brief... I know Douglas is very worried there won't be an even | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
playing field. Frankly with the Sun, The Telegraph, the Times and the | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
Mail, daily pumping out fibs and lies about the European Union, it's | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
time we had proper information. I would point out that the owners of | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
the newspapers are not resident in the UK paying tax. | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
Are you sure about that, because I think they could sue you? Where does | :17:52. | :18:02. | |
the owner live... Why did I say that? Where does Rupert Murdoch | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
live? I don't know, darling. America. Fair enough. I'm not going | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
to challenge you ever again! To blame newspapers for holding points | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
of view with which Chris disagrees, surely the fact that the newspapers | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
have those views reflects what the readers think and want. No. No. You | :18:21. | :18:30. | |
know perfectly well it reflects the owners, the proprietor's views, not | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
the views of the British people. APPLAUSE | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
Ruth Lea? That doesn't make sense. I was going to comment on something | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
Anna was saying, she was talking about Norway and you were talking | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
about Switzerland. When we leave, as I hope we will leave, the British | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
Government will negotiate a British settlement for us. It won't be | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
Norwegian or Swiss, but British. Let's not beat around the bush, we | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
have a lot of leverage in the negotiations. The idea that we are | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
going to be some pathetic supplement is absolutely absurd. They need us | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
and we need them and we want to cooperate. My goodness me, we don't | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
need to be in the European Union to be able to do that. | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
APPLAUSE. Ten hands up at the moment, I'll take one point from you | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
because you've got the tallest hand, yes? Oh, thank you. | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
If... No, no, no, you haven't got the tallest hand, you have. Be brief | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
if you probably would. I believe we do want to say the same thing. ?9.3 | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
million on a Government pamphlet, not sure of the contents because I | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
believe it's being distributed next week, to put it in context, this | :19:51. | :19:59. | |
country's contributing roughly ?350 million a week to the European Union | :20:00. | :20:08. | |
and what are we getting in return? I voted in the 1975 referendum. I've | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
been pro-European for many years. But in recent years, my mind has | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
changed. I'm going to vote to leave the EU. | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
OK. All right. APPLAUSE. | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
We are going to go on. Thank you very much. The only thing I would | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
say, the Institute for Fiscal Studies who we all reveer, says the | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
actual figure is not ?350 million, but ?154 million when you deduct the | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
benefit that comes. I say that in a disinterested way just to correct | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
the point. But we need to move on to another question because we have a | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
lot more questions to Comptonite and we have already had 20 minutes. If | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
you want to come and take part in this chaos of Question Time during | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
this run-up to the EU, we are going to be in Doncaster next week and we | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
are in Exeter the week after that. So you can apply via the | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
A question from Michael Manuel, please? Can we ever have a just and | :21:08. | :21:18. | |
fair society when it seems that only the little people pay their fair | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
share of taxes? APPLAUSE. | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
So, Panama raises its head. Anna Soubry? Well, there's a statistic | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
which I thought was very interesting. I think it's very | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
important as well. The top 1%, the most wealthy people in our nation, | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
pay 28% of all the taxes that we collect. So whilst I agree with you | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
that obviously there are devices and schemes which actually we have | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
cracked down on, we introduced 40 measures in the last Parliament to | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
close off these loopholes, but it often looks like the rich can escape | :22:06. | :22:17. | |
from paying taxation, taxation. We have got another 25 measures I | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
believe it is for the next Parliament. We are doing all the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
things we should be doing. The most important thing is that everybody | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
should pay their tax. You are absolutely right, it doesn't matter | :22:31. | :22:32. | |
who they are, everybody should do it. No offshore tax havens, is your | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
view? I think if you live in this country and you earn income and you | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
have money that you accrue, you should pay your taxes. Now, where | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
you choose to invest your money is a matter for you, but when you are | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
earning income and if you sell assets and therefore you have | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
capital gains tax by way of example to pay, those are the things that | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
you should do. That's why, as I say, we have introduced these measures, | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
we are raising billions of pounds, because we are closing off all the | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
Liverpool hopes that have frankly existed for previous years under | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
grieve previous Governments, we are doing that and that is the right | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
thing to do. Chris Bryant? What a load of nonsense that was. I mean | :23:19. | :23:20. | |
really. APPLAUSE. It's absolutely clear, | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
there's one rule for the very, very rich and another rule for the rest | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
of us. We all have to pay our tax through PAYE. Some people get to pay | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
expensive people to find a way around it. We don't know. Anna's | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
completely wrong, we don't actually know how much people are paying, the | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
very wealthy pay on their tax because 8% of the world's wealth is | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
hidden in offshore tax havens. So why didn't you change that? We | :23:50. | :24:00. | |
did... So you undid it... The FT did a close survey of the tax avoidance | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
measures uncovered by Blair, Brown and recent Governments, they found | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
that the Blair Brown Governments done four times as much, they | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
brought in ?100 billion of unpaid tax thus far and in particular what | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
really disturbs me is first of all, that we introduce add very effective | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
measure, the disclosure of tax avoidance schemes measure. We | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
strengthened it at every point since 2004 when we introduced it and the | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
coalition Government in 2010 started watering it down. David Cameron | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
lobbied at the European Union to say that their personal private trusts | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
shouldn't be open to the same transparency rules as for | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
corporations. I disagree with that. We should all be in this together. | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
Chris, under Labour... Come back on this? Under Labour, | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
rich people didn't pay stamp duty. Under Labour, millionaires and | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
billionaires paid less tax than their cleaners were paying. Under | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
previous Labour Governments, we had loophole after loophole propped up | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
by your party that failed to do these things. That's absolutely what | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
we stopped doing, 40 measures raising ?2 billion in extra taxes. | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
We are the ones who cleared up your mess. You said you were going to do | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
that. Now it's clear we are not going to get a quarter of what you | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
said. You said you got rid of the tax havens in the overseas | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
territories. When I was minister, I refused to allow them to continue | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
their tax haven status if they wanted to borrow more money which is | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
what they wanted to do. The moment we lost power in 2010, your | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
Government came in and said, no, you can borrow as much as you want and | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
remain as a tax haven. Do you want to have direct rule in these places, | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
the Virgin Islands, go to war and take them back? I can think of, you | :25:53. | :26:00. | |
know, I can imagine Pitcairn island would love to have Boris as its | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
Governor Nomplt we should consider very, very closely what we do in | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
relation to our overseas territories. We still have a | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
contingent liability where they are trading on the same name. We | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
shouldn't be allowed to continue without transparency. Bermuda, the | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
Turks and chaos, Pitcairn, they are all doing it. I was the last | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
minister in charge who said that to impose direct rule in Turks and | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
Caicos because of the massive corruption there in 2009. The woman | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
second row from the back? Will the Government be challenging the names | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
with the same vigilance as it does benefit claims? Ruth Lea? Benefit | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
claimants get looked at very carefully, will the rich be looked | :26:59. | :27:06. | |
at as carefully? When Anna said the top 1% of taxpayers pay a high | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
proportion of the tax bill, she's right, they are taxpayers. The | :27:11. | :27:17. | |
trouble is that such a lot of them squirrel away their dividends in the | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
Chris havens Chris was talking about. I take your point, I'm not | :27:21. | :27:28. | |
disagreeing with that. I think that you were referring to the gentleman | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
with the original question, thinking about the Panama papers and this | :27:33. | :27:42. | |
curious legal firm called MossackFonseca or whatever it's | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
called, that was dealing with all these people who're obviously | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
dealing with the tax havens, many of which are overseas territories, I | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
think half the dealings that they were dealing with were actually | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
British Virgin Islands which is overseas. But do you think it's | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
right this should be allowed to happen? No. People perfectly legally | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
do that. President Obama said an interesting thing, saying it's legal | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
what's been going on, but that's the problem. I think the problem is | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
because they are secret and there is a lack of transparency it covers the | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
legal which is avoidance or even aggressive tax avoidance which is | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
strictly legal. There is money-laundering, dodging sanctions | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
and the like. This comes back to the point Chris is making, you need | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
absolute transparency in these particular tax havens and then at | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
least you know whether they are legal or whether they are illegal | :28:39. | :28:40. | |
transactions. We need specific new policies to end | :28:41. | :29:00. | |
the division that has come about in our society. The tax returns we all | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
make should be made public, so I can see your tax return, Mr Dimbleby, | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
and you can see mine. This could obtain throughout the whole country | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
and we could look carefully at those who are not paying what appears to | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
be the right tax. It may well be then that we can get in touch with | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
the tax office and say, would you be kind enough to investigate this | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
person because it appears they are paying too little tax. Irvine Welsh, | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
would you like to see that? I think it is inevitable and probably the | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
tip of the iceberg everything that has happened in the last 15 years. | :29:43. | :29:51. | |
It is such a strange thing, when you look at what has actually happened | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
and the response of people involved. The great tragedy for them is that | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
they have been caught. This is the whole problem as far as they are | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
concerned. You can bet every resource will be going into making | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
sure the public do not get that kind of information again that they got | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
in the Panama leaks. This is probably the last we will hear of | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
this for a while but you can bet it will continue to keep going on. Have | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
you ever been tempted to put your money in the Virgin Islands from | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
Chicago? The Virgin Islands is too far away so I would probably go for | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
the Cayman Islands. You have been tempted that way? Not really, no. | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
When I lived in Dublin, writers were exempt from tax. The thing is, it is | :30:41. | :30:48. | |
not about individuals. If the system is set up for greed, encouraging | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
people to act on greedy impulses, human beings are complex, not only | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
about greed, but all sorts of emotions, but if an economic system | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
is setup to be based around greed and avarice, you get these outcomes. | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
Human beings are violent but we do not want war of the time to satisfy | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
that. We have to have some kind of balance, some kind of controls on | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
people's base instincts. Right now we don't have that in the global | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
economic system. Is that why you lived in Dublin, so you couldn't pay | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
taxes? No, I live there because my wife was there. Many writers did | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
move there because it had a special tax regime. I remember saying to | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
Roddy Doyle in a pub, how can you live here and not pay tax? He is | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
born and bred there. The guy who is pulling your pint of Guinness is | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
paying an exorbitant amount. And there I was, when I moved to Dublin. | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
I thought, every other writer is not paying tax, so I should do the same | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
thing. When the system is rigged like that, you are in the position | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
that you are a mug if you don't take advantage. He just laughed in my | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
face and said, now you are here, you will take advantage. He was right | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
because that is the way it operates, but the system should not operate | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
like that, being about somebody deciding who has money deciding if | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
they want to take part in it or not. Somebody deciding to sell their | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
conscience by giving to charity. It is not enough. People should be | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
compelled to pay the correct amount of tax. People are right to feel a | :32:44. | :32:50. | |
sense of anger. The lady at the back said with the government go after | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
people not paying tax the same way as someone fiddling benefit. I was | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
hoping a woman in my constituency today who is being chased by HMRC | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
and bailiffs for their mistake in overpaying her child tax credit. I | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
hope they go after some of those who have not paid their full share of | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
tax in Panama and the British Virgin Islands. The question is what to do | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
about it. Unless we colonise every small island on the planet and | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
impose world governance, we are going to have to recognise that we | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
cannot stamp out tax havens. How do we minimise the damage and minimise | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
the unjust system? First, pushed tax havens to disclose. In fairness to | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
David Gauke, and I don't want to trigger the squabble again, but the | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
current Treasury minister has done good staff in terms of pushing some | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
of these havens. British Virgin Islands now has to report to 29 | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
different tax authorities which it did not have to do before. Second, | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
we have to remove the incentive to use a tax haven. We have had four | :33:55. | :34:03. | |
budgets in the past two years. Every time, George Osborne announces his | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
wealthy is going to try and grab. It could be peoples pension pots. It | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
Pastis at one stage. If we had less arbitrary tax and lower tax there | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
would be this incentive. If there is an opportunity of paying no tax, | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
however low the tax is, people will go for that. If you remove the | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
incentive... The incentive is 10% tax, 20%? If you push tax | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
jurisdictions to disclose, I don't think people would be willing to | :34:39. | :34:49. | |
take that risk. You, sir. We used to have an act in 1947 controlling the | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
movement of money. Why don't we bring that back again? Why was it | :34:53. | :35:02. | |
repealed? The Thatcher government repealed it in 1979. Along with a | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
series of other things which deregulated, one of the things that | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
Thatcher bequests to the modern era, they deregulated so much this was an | :35:11. | :35:18. | |
inevitable result. There is an increasing perception that there is | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
a ruling class that is beyond the law. Because they are the ruling | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
class they can preserve things for themselves. I am concerned this | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
country is becoming less democratic, because those in the corridors of | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
power can manage things to ensure the perpetuation. As I said, I don't | :35:35. | :35:43. | |
think we disagree that in the last government we collected an | :35:44. | :35:45. | |
additional ?2 billion of money because we tied up 40 of these loops | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
that enabled people who should have been paying tax not to pay. We have | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
another 25 measures. If you speak to those who have used devices to avoid | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
paying tax, they will tell you how the taxman is now coming after them. | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
We have seen in the last five years ?2 billion of extra money coming in | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
from people who have avoided it. We have a general GT that means these | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
sort of avoidance schemes are no longer allowable. -- a general duty. | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
I don't want to deal with this squabbling but it has to be said | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
that it is a fact that under the last Labour government there were | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
all sorts of schemes that were absolutely promoted in order for | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
people to defer taxation and not pay at the right time. That is a fact. | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
The truth is that the moment you close one loophole or introduce a | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
tax, someone will employ a lawyer somewhere to find a way round it. | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
The proof is that all political parties should get together and | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
agree that we want to put an end to this. David Cameron's example this | :36:58. | :36:59. | |
week has not been brilliant on transparency. It is not just about | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
the tax arrangements but also about knowing who owns what. It is | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
interesting how much the United, the president of the United Arab | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
Emirates opens in London. We only know that because of this | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
revelation. A lot of people in other countries of the world are furious | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
with their leaders who have been stealing money from them, taking it | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
elsewhere, and all political parties in this country should be making | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
sure our embassies overseas are the best example. | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
Coming back to the Prime Minister, do you think he has now explained | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
sufficiently for your purposes his tax affairs, to satisfy you that | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
there has been no wrongdoing and no tax avoidance on his part? It has | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
been classic Cameron. It has had to be dragged out of him by wild | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
horses. Remember when he said he had never gone riding with Rebekah | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
Brooks, and then, maybe he had done but he could not remember if she was | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
there, and in the end he could remember and even remembered the | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
name of the horse. That is exactly what we had this week. Of course I | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
am not satisfied and I don't suppose a single person in the country is | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
satisfied. APPLAUSE | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
At the beginning of the week he said was a personal matter, then he said | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
he was not benefiting at all, then he said he and his family were not | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
benefiting, and then he said they would not benefiting future, but | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
forgot to mention that they had been benefiting in the past. | :38:39. | :38:38. | |
APPLAUSE Why didn't he own up at the | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
beginning if he hasn't done anything wrong? Can we just establish | :38:46. | :38:52. | |
something. The Blair more holdings, and forgive me, David, I think you | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
were putting that into the same category as tax avoidance schemes | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
and offshore dealings. That was actually an investment fast, | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
perfectly legitimate, Robert Peston and others have written about the | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
legitimacy of it. In 2006 it actually produced a brochure so | :39:09. | :39:18. | |
investors could invest in it. You paid tax and capital gains tax. That | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
is exactly what David Cameron did. In 2010, when he became Prime | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
Minister, you got rid of his holdings in it. He paid the capital | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
gains tax on that. He has not done anything wrong. Hang on, you are | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
interrupting. It is very important, if you are talking about tax | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
avoidance. We can have a debate about that, but this is not a tax | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
avoidance scheme. It is an investment trust, open, honest and | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
write unlawful. There was a big distinction between that and tax | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
avoidance. He did it just before the election. I will tell you why. This | :40:01. | :40:09. | |
was not someone who did something wrong and was getting rid of it | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
because there was nothing illegal, morally or legally about investing | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
in this trust. So why didn't he say so on Monday. He got rid of | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
everything when he became Prime Minister and now he is saying he | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
will publish his tax return and other party leaders should do the | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
same. Do you want to answer the point that it took him a week to get | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
to the point of saying in the future his family would not benefit, so in | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
the past maybe they had by implication. To be honest, | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
understandably the spotlight was put on his late father. He was dragged | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
into it and there were slurs made against him. I have to say, if it | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
had been my father I think I would have called back and frankly not | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
wanted to talk about any of it because I would have found it | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
hurtful. I had no interest in Ed Miliband's father either. I was much | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
more interested in Ed Miliband and I am more interested in David and who | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
they are and what they stand for today, not about their parents. I | :41:16. | :41:24. | |
promised I would union. One of the reasons the little man pays is that | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
David Cameron was asked in April 2012 to publish his tax returns and | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
he still hasn't. We have a Chancellor who can stand proudly. We | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
have Google who pay more tax in France, get more money in Britain. | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
It doesn't add up. We have disabled people losing ?30 a week. If | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
anything, it is because of the current Government. Until he can | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
publish a Budget which holds everyone, not just the top 10%, | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
nothing will change nothing will work. We only have a quarter of an | :41:55. | :42:04. | |
hour left and I want to go on to this next topic, a question from | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
Caroline Jones. Hello. The microphone is over your head. Should | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
the Government nationalise the British steel industry? Chris | :42:15. | :42:26. | |
Bryant. Not necessarily as its first step, but it might need to keep that | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
as a possibility on the table. I represent a seat in south Wales | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
which used to have a single industry that dominated. It was cold in my | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
case. I drive past Port Talbot frequently and I have constituents | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
who work in the still works there. -- the steelworks. For those of you | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
who think we should not bail out steel, think hard about this. There | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
are presently people paying taxes who would then be in receipt of | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
benefits. If we can afford to bail out the banks, we can afford to bail | :43:05. | :43:06. | |
out steel. APPLAUSE | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
I don't want us to suddenly go back to the 1940s and say we will | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
nationalise steel and keep it forever in state control. Government | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
ministers are not particularly good at running businesses. But I think | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
it was wrong of the Government to take this off the table. I also | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
think, to be honest, that Sajid Javid, when he seems to suggest this | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
came as a surprise to him, if he had sat in Prime Minister's Questions | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
the week before when Stephen Kinnock, who has done a very good | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
job in representing his constituents, said to the Prime | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
Minister, next week there will be a decision in Mumbai where they will | :43:51. | :43:52. | |
decide on the future of the steelworks in my constituency, he | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
could have heard that and then he might have gone to Mumbai instead of | :43:59. | :43:59. | |
Australia. Back to Caroline Jones' question. | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
Should the Government nationalise it. You seemed to say yes, possibly? | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
I don't think we should take it off the table which is what the | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
Government are saying. We need to do a proper due diligence, get all the | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
facts and figures in relation to the business together. Secondly, we | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
should stop bowing to China. I'm sick and tired of all this business | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
trying to get market status economy for China when they have been | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
dumping steel at way less than it costs to produce and taking people | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
out of jobs in this country and incidentally that's another reason | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
for me why we should stay in the EU because I think we only stand up to | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
China if we are alongside our colleagues in the European Union. I | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
think the Government will have to put some money on the table. I'm | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
very proud of Carwyn Jones, the leader in the Welsh Assembly, | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
because he's already put ?60 million on the table from the Welsh | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
Assembly. That's a large amount of money. What do you say to what Anna | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
Soubry sitting on my right said, which is that nationalisation is an | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
option. She said, I make clear we should look at all options. I like a | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
lot of the things Anna says on this subject. The trouble is, actually | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
the implementation of them. I don't understand why the Government was | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
campaigning against tariffs in the European Union that other | :45:21. | :45:23. | |
countries... That's not true. That's not true. I don't know why on 29th | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
February Anna voted against a motion in the House of Commons and Douglas | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
didn't even bother to turn up. You lose people by this kind of thing. | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
Let's just deal with the question of steel and the future of the steel | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
industry. Because we have made it very, very clear that steel is a | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
vital industry and we'll not leave any stone unturned in our absolute | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
determination to do everything we can, not just to keep rolling it, | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
milling it and producing it but actually making steel and notably | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
both at Scunthorpe and Port Talbot. I'll put my hands up and say that | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
there's a lot of stuff that perhaps we haven't talked about that we | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
should talk about and I can't talk about everything, but I want to make | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
some points absolutely clear. First of all, we've been looking - I mean | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
a proper, hard, long look since October - led by Oliver Letwin, a | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
group of ministers including myself, at how we can first of all secure | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
the making of steel at Scunthorpe and then in more recent times long | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
before last week, how we can make sure we continue to make steel blast | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
steel in Port Talbot. That work's been going on. I can't talk about | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
the detail of it because as you will understand, a lot of this is | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
incredibly commercially sensitive. So what happened back in September | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
was that we had a steel summit and the industry and the unions - and I | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
want to say something about the Trade Unions that represent | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
steelworkers - brilliant, skilled remarkable men as they usually are | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
and a few women as well. The Trade Unions throughout all of this have | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
been outstanding and I want to pay tribute in particular to the | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
communities Trade Union and their remarkable leader. So we've all | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
worked together. The industry quite rightly said, we've got five asks | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
because we want a level playing field, some of which Chris has | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
identified, like tariffs, for example. We've delivered on four of | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
the five asks. The only thing we've not delivered on is sorting out | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
rates. Hopefully we might get there. When it comes to tariffs, I can tell | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
you I was the minister who, in the face of the advice from my officials | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
that we should vote against them, I said no, we will vote in favour of | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
tariffs on steel products, wire and then rebar and a number of other | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
products we have done in conjunction with the European Union. I agree | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
with Chris, we are better off in the EU. Including tariffs on Chinese | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
steel? Well, yes. It was opposed? No, this is not true! We voted in | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
favour. In fact, such was the shock in the EU commissioners that were | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
sitting there, they went back to the UK delegation to check the vote so | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
we have done it twice, we did it in July and in November. As a result of | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
that, the imports, for example, of rebar, have now plummeted to 90%, so | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
this dumped steel, notably from China but from other countries as | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
well, is already reducing because of the action that we've taken in | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
conjunctionion with other countries, that is what we are doing and we'll | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
continue because we are determined that this country will carry on | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
making steel in our brilliant steelworks with those excellent | :48:30. | :48:30. | |
workers. Ruth Lea? The steel industry is | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
really in difficulty and I'm very surprised to hear Anna talk about | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
tariffs in that particular way because my understanding was that | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
the European Union wanted to bring tariffs in at about 45%, or up to | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
that. The UK were one of those countries that blocked it. I'm | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
afraid that's not true. I read that. I'm the minister responsible and I | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
promise you we've been arguing in favour of higher after the rifles on | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
some steel. Sorry was but I am the minister, I know the vote and I know | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
what we've done, Ruth. I think you are talking about the lesser duty | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
rule. All right. Ruth Lea? Am I allowed to continue? Sorry. Because | :49:18. | :49:24. | |
I actually read that in a business committee report and it was a | :49:25. | :49:26. | |
business committee report that came out at the end of last year so | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
perhaps the report was wrong, but that's where I actually saw it. It | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
was on the Government response to the steel crisis. But putting that | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
aside about the tariffs, there is no doubt that China is selling very, | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
very cheap steel at the moment and it was exacerbated by the strong | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
value of the pound, so the real steel industry had this enormous | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
competitive disadvantage against the Chinese. Out of which of course they | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
do have extra expenses the Chinese don't or other countries indeed many | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
the European Union don't in the sense that energy costs are so much | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
higher here. Can I drag you back to the question which was about | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
nationalisation? Well, this was recognised by the Government some | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
time ago that, they took their time in actually bringing these energy | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
packages in. But the problem is, we are where we are and the steel | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
industry have got all these problems and the question really has to be | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
now, how much of the steel industry is going to be realistically | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
economically viable. Let's see if the Government can get somebody to | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
buy Port Talbot? I think it's true that the steel plants in Scotland | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
have been sold and there is another buyer who will buy Scunthorpe. But | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
the big one of course is Port Talbot. Let's just see if they can | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
actually sell that. They'll have to provide sweeteners, no doubt about | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
that. You are talking about help on energy and pensions and probably | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
help on environmental liabilities. But let's hope they can find | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
something. The person on the front? Why has the British Government left | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
it so long to intervene within the steel market if you have known | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
there's been a crisis for so long, why have you not intervened with | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
Tata Steel before? Why is it that you are only doing it now? Is that a | :51:14. | :51:22. | |
criticism you would make? I think the Government's been on the back | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
foot on this. Let me be clear, I wouldn't support the nationalisation | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
of steel for the same reasons I opposed every bail out of the banks. | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
I don't think putting people like politicians in charge of an industry | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
is going to make it any better. There are three reasons why I think | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
steel production in this country is in the sorry state that it is and | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
three big failures on the part of the Government. Port Talbot makes | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
good steel, it's a world class product. But there are three things | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
that make it virtually impossible for them to earn an honest living by | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
producing what they produce. It's a very energy intensive industry and | :52:02. | :52:03. | |
being in the European Union means the energy costs of producing steel | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
in Port Talbot make it almost impossible to do so competitively. I | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
think we need to leave the European Union and reduce the cost of energy | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
on our industry. That would have an impact. | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
APPLAUSE Secondly, China has imposed I think | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
I am right in saying a 46% tariff on steel. Now, when the Chinese | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
President visited this country, George Osborne was very, very keen | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
to get them to sign up to a nuclear deal which incidentally adds to the | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
cost of our energy. I wonder if he used what clout we might have to | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
negotiate and force China to be reasonable. I think perhaps because | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
we are so fixated with trying to get Chinese investment in the nuclear | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
sector, we are not using the leverage we have. The ?2 billion | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
pension liability hasn't been discussed for Port Talbot, the price | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
we pay of having... A bit more than 2? The pension deficit, the unfunded | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
liability is ?2 billion I think I am right in saying. If you look at what | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
successive Governments under first of all Gordon Brown and now George | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
Osborne have done, they have introduced rates to virtually zero. | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
We discover pension funds haven't been able to keep up with their | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
future liabilities. We are starting to see the in Port Talbot a huge | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
pension liability and this is the price we pay of having a Chancellor | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
who believes that low interest rates alone can have an impact, it's the | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
price we pay for Os-Brown economics. You, there? As regards the pensions, | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
that was because the legislation was changed about what pension companies | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
could own. Most Canadian teachers pensions own high speed railway, the | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
Canadian teachers pension own huge assets in the UK. Sorry, let's stick | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
to steel and Port Talbot? The point made about the energy cost if we | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
pull out of the EU, then the energy cost would go down. We can't produce | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
enough energy for what we news now, we buy most of it from Europe, via a | :54:08. | :54:16. | |
big pipe. You, in the blue shirt? About slamming the stable door after | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
the horse has bolted but what about the rest of the UK manufacturer. We | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
have a major stills shortage so how are we encouraging people to study | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
science, technology, engineering and mathses? -- maths. Caroline Jones | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
who asked the question. What do you think? I agree with Ruth Lea about | :54:35. | :54:44. | |
the EU. I've heard there is a 9% tariff on the steel that's imported | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
from China. America imposes a tariff of 244%. | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
The point is whether or not you get the right effect and the effect is | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
that we have seen, for example, on rebar, we have seen a reduction... | :54:59. | :55:07. | |
You will have to explain that? Reinforced bar, you can see it in | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
concrete and it's made in Cardiff. The point is, when we put the | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
tariffs on, we saw a reduction of 99% of steel. On energy prices we | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
are paying out tens of millions in compensation back. So from 2017, | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
we'll exempt all our energy intensive industries from two of the | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
three green taxes that have undoubtedly taken the action. The | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
Government are considering nationalising steel. It's nonsense. | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
Absolute nonsense. It's a very different thing with the banks. I | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
mean, the banks, you know, the banks is part of the ecosystem of | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
exploitation and it's based on debt, it's like the Government's | :55:54. | :56:00. | |
controlled citizens through international money. The banks were | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
too big to fail. The steelworkers for all this rhetoric about how | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
normal and fine they are, all that patronising stuff, they don't give a | :56:10. | :56:16. | |
toss. It's not draw actually. It is actually, do something about it. | :56:17. | :56:23. | |
So you are saying that I think... I think it's a big test for Labour in | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
terms of their credentials. They have to show how serious they are. | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
Basically it's like, if the Government nationalised the steel, | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
it's basically the beginning of the end of the neo-liberal project, it | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
can't be allowed to happen under this Government. It's a big test for | :56:43. | :56:48. | |
Labour and Corbyn. Will they have the gumption to do something like | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
that. We don't want old-fashioned nationalisation. Surely the most | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
important thing is to stabilise the company now, get enough time to be | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
able to get a proper package in and I say one thing to Anna, I was | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
delighted what you said about Trade Unions, I just wish you would now | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
withdraw the Trade Union bill which is attacking Trade Unions. You | :57:13. | :57:22. | |
always have to make a tribal point. Tribalism in Westminster politics | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
and between your party and his is something we are quite used to on | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
this programme. It does however sadly bring us to | :57:32. | :57:33. | |
tend of this programme because our time's up. We have to stop now. We | :57:34. | :57:42. | |
are going to be in Doncaster next week With David Davis, the | :57:43. | :57:44. | |
Conservative backbencher among those on the panel. The week after that, | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
we are in Exeter. So Doncaster and Exeter. If you want to join the | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
audience, you can apply at the website address there or call the | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
number on the screen. If you have been listening or are | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
listening on Five Live, the debate goes on on Question Time extra time. | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
Thanks to the panel, to all the audience members. Until next | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
Thursday, good night. | :58:13. | :58:14. |