EU Special: The Case for Remain Question Time


EU Special: The Case for Remain

David Dimbleby presents the second of two special editions of Question Time. Prime minster David Cameron MP answers questions on the case for remaining in the European Union.


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Welcome to a special edition of Question Time. Last Wednesday,

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Michael Gove faced our studio audience in Nottingham. Tonight, in

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Milton Keynes, it is the turn of the Prime Minister, David Cameron, who

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is speaking for the Remain campaign. Good evening. Campaigning resumed

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today after the shocking murder of Jo Cox, and I hope that you will

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agree that the best tribute to Jo Cox, and to her commitment to

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democracy, would be for these important issues for our country to

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be debated thoroughly from now until the vote on Thursday, and that is

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what we intend to do here on Question Time tonight. Our audience

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is divided evenly between those who want to remain and those who want to

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leave, with some still trying to make up their minds. As always on

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Question Time, Mr Cameron has not seen the questions in advance, does

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not know what is going to be asked. Would you welcome the Prime

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Minister, David Cameron? APPLAUSE

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Thank you very much. Prime Minister, our first question

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comes from Jo Cox, please, sorry, what a terrible thing to say, add

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body. Mr Cameron, as this referendum soured the political debate in this

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nation in light of the tragic murder of Jo Cox? Well, first of all, let

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me say, you know, how shocked the whole country has been by this

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appalling murder. Two children have lost their mother, a loving husband

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has lost his wife, and my heart breaks when I think of them and what

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they are going through. And I think the most important thing for

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politicians is to remember what she was all about, which is service,

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community, tolerance, values we should all try to live by and

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promote in order to remember. Look, I don't think we know why exactly

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this happened, or what the motivation was, and all the rest of

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it, and we have to wait for the police investigation before we do

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that. But I think what we do know is, wherever we see intolerance,

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hatred, division, we should try and drive it out of our communities, out

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of our public life, and we have to be careful that debates, yes, they

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can be passionate, but we have to make sure that they are not based on

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those things. Has it been a rather sour debate in your view? It has

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been very passionate, and I understand that, because there are

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strong and passionate views on both sides. I will be frank, there have

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been moments, like the Nigel Farage poster, which I think are just

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wrong, wrong in fact because it is a picture of people in the European

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continent, from Syria and elsewhere, not coming to Britain. But also

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wrong in motivation, because it is an attempt to frighten people, to

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scare them, to divide people... Has your side been guilty of any of

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that? I would say there is nothing more positive than trying to have a

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growing economy, jobs and opportunities, which is what the

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case for Remain is all about. We will come onto the economic

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warnings... John Major called the other campaign squalid, yes? You

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said that the leader of Isis would be happy if we left the EU. Those

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contributions to a measured debate, you or John Major? I actually think

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the Isis one is true, the terrorist to want to do us harm, they want the

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West to be divided. They do not want Britain, France, Germany and Belgium

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to work together to defeat terrorism, they would like to see us

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celebrate. I think the poster was irresponsible. I think there is an

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attempt to frighten people. You think by comparing the referencing

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to Isis, you are scaremongering, rather than portraying the facts? --

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the referendum to Isis. APPLAUSE

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I certainly wasn't comparing the referendum to Isis, to Daesh, I was

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simply saying that I think one of the strongest arguments for

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remaining in the European Union is that we are stronger together, we

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are safer together will stop we do face a dangerous and insecure world,

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and I have been your Prime Minister for six years, and I sit in meetings

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and I see that we work together to face down these threats, and I think

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we would be stronger if we work together. Working together against

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terrorism, against Putin and his aggression in Europe, it must be

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better to stay together, to work together, rather than be separate.

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One more point. I have to say, I have found the campaign is very

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confusing. I don't think either side has made a very good point, and I am

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an educated young woman, and I do not know how I am going to vote. I

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think both sides should feel a little bit ashamed of how they have

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behaved. APPLAUSE

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Let's turn two aspects of the campaign. Is the emergency Brexit

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Budget a punishment for Leave voters? The Chancellor of the

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Exchequer produced a Budget which said 2p in the pound on income tax,

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pensioners' triple lock no longer applied if we vote Leave. Nobody

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wants to have cuts to public spending or putting up taxes, but

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this goes to the heart of the debate and the heart of the argument we

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need to have, because I am absolutely convinced that our

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economy will suffer if we leave. And the reason for that is, today we are

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part of a single market of 500 million people, and that is where

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almost half of what we sell overseas goes. If we leave the single market,

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if we have less good access to it, it stands to common sense that we

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will have less growth, less jobs, less livelihoods for people in our

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country. So if that happens, you don't gain money by leaving the EU.

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You actually make you a economy smaller, you have fewer jobs, less

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tax revenues, so there is a big hole in public finances. What the

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Chancellor was saying is that if that happened, you would have to

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either allow borrowing to rise, which could threaten our economy, or

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you have to put up taxes, or you have to cut spending. Those are, I

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think, some pretty fundamental truths, and it is not just the May

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side that as saying that. Expert after expert, the OECD, the IMF, the

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Bank of England, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, all independent,

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making this point. Are you planning an autumn Budget if we leave? If

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these experts are right, that our economy would be smaller, and we

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would have lower tax revenues, there will be no saving from leaving the

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EU. There will be a cost that we have to make up in some way.

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Immediately, autumn Budget? The Institute for Fiscal Studies says

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that we would lose between ?20 - 40 billion in our public finances, so

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you have to either put up taxes, cut spending or let borrowing rise. As

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Prime Minister, six years ago, we got out of this hole of too much

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borrowing, an economy that was not growing, not creating jobs. I don't

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want us to go back to is where one, and that is why I hope people will

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recognise we are stronger in and Abaaoud to remain. Your close

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adviser Steve Hilton said of the forecasts, they are made up, I know,

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because I used to do this stuff for them! Let's take this very

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directly... APPLAUSE

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It is not simply the Treasury that as saying we will suffer

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economically, the IFS, the Bank of England, all these bodies. Let me

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make a point, David, then I promise I will move on. The Leave campaign

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say let's not listen to experts, but if we are going to drive our

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children on a motorway and the mechanic says the brakes do not

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work, the petrol gauge is faulty, the steering is not working - we

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would not get in the car. We should listen to experts, because they are

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giving is a very clear message of the risks to the economy, the risk

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to jobs and the livelihoods of people in our country. We should

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vote for a stronger economy, and that is vote to remain. With the

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emergency Budget, as a 16-year-old, I would like to go to university,

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how would it affect the cost of education? The good news is that we

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have removed the cap on numbers who were going to universities, because

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we have a feed system, which means that actually successful graduates

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are paying for this system, they start paying back once they have

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earned ?21,000, so we have managed to do that without a big cost to the

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taxpayer. But, frankly, if you want to go to university, almost every

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university, I think actually every university and vice Chancellor has

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said, we are better off staying because we get so much research

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funding, and they are giving a very clear message that we are better off

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staying in. Why did you say, only a short time ago, that Britain outside

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the EU would prosper and be OK? And now you are threatening a massive

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Budget! Why? APPLAUSE

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What I said, sir, is that Britain always finds a way, and we would, of

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course, survive outside the European Union, we would find a way. But it

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is my very clear view that it would be less good, that we would have

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less growth, less jobs, less incomes for our families. We would suffer

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economically. You can either believe the experts, and I think it is right

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to listen to experts, or you can take this simple view that if we

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have got free access to a market of 500 million people, that is where

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almost half of our goods and services go. If we leave, they are

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not going to give us as good a deal on the outside as we get on the

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inside. You are relying on experts, like the Bank of England, who could

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not even tell us exactly when interest rates will be reintroduced?

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He has got it wrong three times. What I would say is when I am

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thinking of buying a house, I listen to an expert. If I am thinking of

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getting into a car, I listen to the mechanic. If I'm building a bridge,

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I want an engineer. The people in the Leave campaign are asking you to

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trust in just the sense that it is going to be OK, and I do not think

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that is good enough for the families and businesses of Britain.

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APPLAUSE If you believe in the Remain

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campaign so passionately, why give people the option to leave?

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APPLAUSE Well, sir, I think some questions

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are so big that it is right they are answered by the people and not by

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the politicians, and frankly we have been having an ultimate about Europe

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in our country for the last 20 years. Since we last had a vote,

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there have been quite a lot of changes to Europe, and I do not

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think we should be frightened, in a democracy, of people making a

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decision. I will accept that decision whatever it is. But I would

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make one point tonight. Do believe it is irreversible. I think if we

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vote to leave, I do not think there is any prospect of rejoining. If you

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work trying to rejoin, I will just make the point, you would have to

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join the single currency, the Schengen zone, you'd have to give up

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the British rebate, so I see no prospect of rejoining. So this is a

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final decision. You cannot, as it were, jumped out of the aeroplane

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and tried to scramble back in through the cockpit hatch. So have

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you got contingency plans, if happens to be Brexit... Of course.

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What we would have to do is work out, as I said to the gentleman

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here, we would have to work out the right way for Britain to succeed in

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the future. But I am St Jude very clearly, I think that is the worst

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of the two options. -- but I am saying to you. I think it would be

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difficult, it would be tough. If we voted to leave, would you call a

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general election? I think it is important for us to have... The next

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step is really crucial for our country, and everybody, all the

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parties, need to come up with a manifesto so that the people who are

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taken control can actually vote the way they want the country to go

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forward, so there will be infighting amongst the Tories, amongst the

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Labour Party. Really, it is time to reconcile all those differences and

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go forward on the basis of a decent business plan and let the people

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decide where we go forward. APPLAUSE

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What I would say is that when we had the general election last year, I

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set out very clearly in a manifesto that we were going to hold a

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renegotiation, we were going to hold a referendum, and in-out referendum,

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the British people would decide, and we would accept that instruction...

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People voted on the basis of a referendum, not the basis of what

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would happen after a referendum. Inevitably, you either go one way or

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the other way. But we did not know what the options would be, how would

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would be taken forward. Louise Reilly, your question. Over here,

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yes. How can you, as Prime Minister, possibly remain if the British

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public vote to leave? You say when? Yes, when. How could you remain? We

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had an election in 2015, my party won the election, I was leading the

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party, so I was re-elected as Prime Minister. I promised the

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renegotiation, carried it out, promised the referendum, we're

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having it. I will obey the instructions of the British people

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on that basis I think it is right to stay. I also think it is right not

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to muddle up in this referendum the future of this politician or that

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politician. The question on the ballot paper is very clear - do we

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stay in or do we leave? My view is that remaining is the right answer

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for our economy, jobs, safety, the strength of our country, and it is

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an irreversible decision with no going back. You have said that this

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referendum is more important than any general election. If you lost a

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general election, you would be out of Number Ten like that. So if you

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lose this referendum, why won't you be out of Number Ten like that?

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Because I said clearly we would hold a referendum, and I would accept the

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instructions of the British people. So I think this is very important...

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Doing the things you do not want to do.

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APPLAUSE What I am saying... Just because you

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hold a referendum does not mean you have a very strong view. I do have a

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strong view, maybe it would be easier for me standing here to say,

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well, on the one hand, strong arguments, and the other, strong

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argument is, and unbalanced... That is not what I think, I really do

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believe that we would be stronger, safer and better off in. I believe

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our economy would be weakened if we leave, and that is why high of

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spoken so frankly and so clearly, I think, throughout this campaign. --

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I have spoken. If you are so confident, it be hold you to say,

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and if I lose, I quit, because it is not something I would go along with.

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It's the wrong thing to do because we held a general election a year

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ago, and my party won that election on the basis of holding a

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referendum. What I don't understand, with all the experts you have saying

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we should stay in, why the British public is more convinced? Why is

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Brexit in the lead? APPLAUSE

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I think people have found this debate and all the facts and the

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figure is perhaps quite confusing. I think at moments that has happened

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but I would say we have former pro days to do, people need to think

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very carefully between now and Thursday, -- we have four days to

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go. If all these experts who have looked at this issue to the

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conclusion our economy will suffer and there is no going back and this

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will have an impact on families and jobs and livelihoods, I believe that

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as well and it's not just because of the experts, it's because I've

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talked to car companies who are doing a brilliant job and our

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workers are doing a brilliant job making cars in Britain, and I

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worried about those jobs going overseas. I have talked to people

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making trains and planes and exporting them to Europe. Why do you

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say people are confused? If you trust people to make the decision,

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the arguments are presented and people are confused. What you mean

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is your points have not got across, isn't that what you mean? It is and

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when you haven't got the point across its frustrating, it's not

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getting through to people. I have four days to go and I will do a

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better job of getting the argument across. It comes down to a simple

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point about the economy but it also comes to a point about what sort of

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country we want to be and I want is to be a country that does work

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together with others, from what I've seen in six years and what I've

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learned in six years, there is no problem in the world that isn't

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better addressed by working with your friends and your allies and

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your neighbours and that's what we face today. We should be working

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together to grow our economies, working together to provide more

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jobs and opportunities for young people, working together to beat

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these terrorists that are trying to do with so much harm. If we walk

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away and quit and leave this organisation for ever, we don't take

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back control. We would be outside the room while the French and

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Germans and Italians were working out, well, what are we going to do

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to fix our economic problems? How shall we fight terrorists? What

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rules shall we have for the single market? They will be deciding and we

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should be there fighting. Britain doesn't quit, we fight, and that's

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how we win. APPLAUSE

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The EU used to have 20% of world trade. It's now dropped to 15%. Is

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that a success story? Sir, what's happened is you've seen the rise of

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countries like China and India, big economies that we need to trade with

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more, but European trade and European economies have grown a

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great amount since we joined in 1972. It struck from 20, to 15%.

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Because of the share of the total. Drops. It's increased as an entity

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it's increased, I don't want to baffle you with statistics. Let me

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give you two statistics. 80% of our economy is services, things like

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insurance, banking, architecture, sales and advertising, 80%. We sell

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more in services today to Luxembourg than we do to the whole of India. Of

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course we need to do better with India, we need a trade deal with

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India, but the idea we should cut ourselves off from our main market I

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think his economic madness. What we need to do is work to succeed in our

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main market then open up the other market. Let's move on, I'm sure the

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economy will come up again and again, a question from June, please.

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Mr Cameron, why in your manifesto did you say you would bring down the

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number of EU immigrants down to the thousands, when you knew very well

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you couldn't control these numbers? APPLAUSE

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I believe that immigration, net migration on that scale is the right

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ambition for our country. Every year many British people and EU nationals

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here in Britain leave and go and work in Europe and many Europeans

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come and work here, and as recently as 2008, there were actually more

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British and EU nationals leaving the UK than there were arriving to work,

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so I think we've had a very extraordinary period for the last

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five years, where we've created in Britain more jobs on the rest of the

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European Union put together. That is now changing is that the European

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Union economies are starting to grow. I think what we need to do is

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better control migration from outside the EU, that's more than

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half of the total, and then bring in the changes that I negotiated, which

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I think will make a big difference because we are saying to people, if

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we stay in, let me quickly do this, if we stay in, if you come and work

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in Britain you can't claim unemployment benefit, if you don't

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get a job after six months you have to leave, and if you do come and

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work you have to work here for four years paying into our system before

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you get full access to our tax credit and welfare system. Is your

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target store 100,000? That's the right ambition. Is your target? A

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lot of people say your failure to hit that target has exacerbated the

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argument about immigration. The Prime Minister promised it, it's not

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going to happen. Michael Gove said, if we leave the EU, I can do it in

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Parliament. I accept it's very challenging controlling immigration.

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More than half comes from outside the EU when we found that quite

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difficult even though we've closed down bogus colleges and all the rest

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of it. Inside the EU we've had this very strong growth here and weak

0:21:170:21:22

growth in the rest of Europe, that is changing, but what I'd say very

0:21:230:21:25

frankly as there are good ways of controlling immigration and these

0:21:260:21:27

welfare changes are good ways, and bad ways of controlling immigration,

0:21:280:21:30

and that would be leaving the single market, damaging our economy,

0:21:310:21:33

costing jobs and hurting British working families in the process.

0:21:340:21:38

That's not the right way to control immigration. We have a lot of hands

0:21:390:21:42

up. Let's hear from the audience. I understand the importance in

0:21:430:21:45

relation to experts but that's exactly where the problem is. People

0:21:460:21:50

become so disillusioned with the establishment, they refuse to listen

0:21:510:21:53

to the experts, that's why 3.18 million people voted for Ukip and I

0:21:540:21:59

also believe at the end of the day whether we vote to Leave or remain

0:22:000:22:04

Remain, is the people's choice and as the Prime Minister you would say

0:22:050:22:09

we should do the politics of hope, we should do our best, and we

0:22:100:22:13

shouldn't have a budget that is the threatening the pensioner or other

0:22:140:22:17

people. Let's stick with immigration. You said Europe is

0:22:180:22:24

increasing work wise, Spain, Greece, Italy, France have got higher

0:22:250:22:28

unemployment than we have and no prospect of increasing jobs. Why are

0:22:290:22:31

you telling us that Europe is increasing, when it's not? Europeans

0:22:320:22:36

come here because they see the problem at home, and yet we try and

0:22:370:22:40

stay in Europe and not see the problem is that they have got. You

0:22:410:22:43

want to spend five minutes with me, I can tell you all about it.

0:22:440:22:47

APPLAUSE Hang on, Prime Minister. Briefly,

0:22:480:22:52

the facts are, you are right about the Greek economy, it's still in

0:22:530:22:56

very great difficulty. The Spanish economy is growing, the French

0:22:570:23:00

economy is growing, the German economy is growing, that is

0:23:010:23:02

beginning to change and you can see that. The Irish economy grew 7% last

0:23:030:23:07

year, more than twice as fast as we did. I want to stick with the

0:23:080:23:11

immigration point, who wants to speak? New with the spectacle. I

0:23:120:23:17

think it's an illogical thing to understand that if we have

0:23:180:23:20

absolutely no limitations on immigration from the EU that people

0:23:210:23:23

are robbers Lee Byrne to immigrate over here, we have a public sector,

0:23:240:23:27

we have our NHS that is under tremendous strain at the moment, --

0:23:280:23:34

people are going to immigrate over here. If we don't put a limit on

0:23:350:23:37

this immigration and the only way to do that is to leave the single

0:23:380:23:40

market, then everything is going to get flooded. You are not doing

0:23:410:23:45

anything to counterbalance all the immigration coming into these

0:23:460:23:49

services. Let's take the health service, an important point. What

0:23:500:23:51

I'd say is we are putting more money into the NHS. We can argue we should

0:23:520:23:57

put even more in, let's work out how to get the growth into our economy

0:23:580:24:00

into the NHS but when you listen to the people in the NHS, the Royal

0:24:010:24:05

College of midwives, the Royal College of Art positions, Simon

0:24:060:24:08

Stevens who runs the NHS, the trade unions who work in the NHS, they all

0:24:090:24:15

want is to remain in reformed -- they want is to remain in a reformed

0:24:160:24:19

Europe, because it's better for the NHS. You talk about a reformed

0:24:200:24:24

European Union that we are part of, fair enough, you have negotiated

0:24:250:24:27

some changes which you say will make a massive difference to the

0:24:280:24:31

immigration, but realistically it is not, it's not going to make a

0:24:320:24:35

massive difference to the levels of immigration, especially considering

0:24:360:24:37

there are other countries about to join. What do you want to happen?

0:24:380:24:46

Leave the single market, negotiate our trade worldwide.

0:24:470:24:47

APPLAUSE Let's take a moment on the issue of

0:24:480:24:51

let's leave and negotiate our trade arrangements with the European

0:24:520:24:54

Union. This is to stop immigration, that's what she said. Some people

0:24:550:24:59

think that's what we should do, the best trade deal Europe has ever done

0:25:000:25:04

is with Canada, it's taken seven years to negotiate, it still hasn't

0:25:050:25:07

been completed, it doesn't give full access is for services and farmers,

0:25:080:25:11

so what we have been looking at, this is so important for people

0:25:120:25:14

watching this, if we vote to leave we are facing potentially a decade

0:25:150:25:20

of uncertainty. Two years to get out of the European Union, seven years

0:25:210:25:24

to negotiate a trade deal with the European Union, and for young people

0:25:250:25:26

starting out on their working life that means a whole decade of not

0:25:270:25:30

knowing the direction in which their country is going. I think that would

0:25:310:25:36

be a mistake for our country. APPLAUSE

0:25:370:25:40

You, sir. Fire away. Is there anything fair about immigration

0:25:410:25:43

system that prioritises unskilled workers from within the EU, over

0:25:440:25:48

unskilled workers who are coming from outside the EU?

0:25:490:25:54

APPLAUSE Sir, we effectively have two

0:25:550:25:59

systems, we have a system inside the European Union will British

0:26:000:26:01

nationals who want to go and work in Spain or Italy or France or

0:26:020:26:05

elsewhere are able to do that and European nationals can come and work

0:26:060:26:08

here, and from outside the European Union we have a points -based system

0:26:090:26:14

where we only take people in if they have skills and we have gaps in

0:26:150:26:16

those skills. So the argument, the answer and argument we have to make

0:26:170:26:20

with ourselves is to think is it really worth leaving the single

0:26:210:26:24

market, damaging our economy, in order to try to make progress with

0:26:250:26:28

this issue? I don't think it is. Those Leave campaigners who say they

0:26:290:26:32

want an Australian points style system for inside the EU, Australia

0:26:330:26:36

has more than twice as much net migration per head as we do. There's

0:26:370:26:41

no silver bullet this issue. No simple way of solving this issue.

0:26:420:26:46

Prime Minister, if you left the EU there would be a silver bullet

0:26:470:26:48

because then you have total control over the number of people coming in?

0:26:490:26:53

APPLAUSE First of all, you don't have

0:26:540:26:59

control... Why don't you have control? The we have more than half

0:27:000:27:03

coming from outside the EU. Why don't you have control over that?

0:27:040:27:08

That's more than half, you have to work on that, it takes time and it's

0:27:090:27:12

been difficult. Inside the EU is what I'm arguing... What do you

0:27:130:27:16

mean, it's been difficult? You mean you haven't achieved it. Why has it

0:27:170:27:20

been difficult? Lots of people want to come and study and work and live

0:27:210:27:26

in our country. We've taken all the -- we've taken a lot of steps. But

0:27:270:27:30

it's your decision as Prime Minister. I'm explaining why their

0:27:310:27:33

has been a difficult thing to do, but the real argument here is do we

0:27:340:27:39

want to leave the single market and damage our economy in order to try

0:27:400:27:42

and deal with this issue? I think that is the wrong way to go because

0:27:430:27:46

you are going to be cutting jobs, cutting livelihoods, harming the

0:27:470:27:49

interests of families in our country and that isn't what we should be

0:27:500:27:53

doing. Lots of hands up, I want to ask one thing, your Home Secretary

0:27:540:27:57

Theresa May has said there is some changes coming up in free movement

0:27:580:28:01

rules in the EU and we should look for further reform in the future.

0:28:020:28:05

You saying as part of this campaign, don't worry, we are going to cut on

0:28:060:28:12

EU entry to this country in the way Theresa May suggests? What she is

0:28:130:28:15

saying is there is that a set of reforms coming in if we stay which

0:28:160:28:18

we have negotiated. There's the changes to welfare. Which you have

0:28:190:28:24

done. She says there will be further reform. There are welfare changes

0:28:250:28:28

which make a difference, we have also got further changes to make

0:28:290:28:30

sure we can throw at criminals, that we can stop people with sham

0:28:310:28:34

marriages, that people who are third country nationals can't come in

0:28:350:28:37

because of a marriage they have made. Those changes are coming. We

0:28:380:28:42

are reopening the free -- the freedom of movement directive. This

0:28:430:28:45

is an ongoing process, the more we can do, the better. The man over

0:28:460:28:51

there. Mr Cameron, you keep saying that you propose to stop immigrants

0:28:520:28:58

claiming benefits, is this just a proposal, or can you enforce it or

0:28:590:29:03

have you got to go back to the EU to get it in forced? Yes, sir, it's

0:29:040:29:10

agreed by the 27 other prime ministers and presidents. It's part

0:29:110:29:13

of what will become a legally binding document and these changes

0:29:140:29:17

are coming in, the head of the European Parliament has said that as

0:29:180:29:20

well. These are things, they come in, if we vote Yes to remain in a

0:29:210:29:25

reformed European Union on Thursday, those proposals get put in front of

0:29:260:29:28

the European Parliament and start to be passed straightaway. What happens

0:29:290:29:34

if somebody vetoes you? They have all agreed they won't. Can we

0:29:350:29:40

believe that? This is part of the document that is a legally binding

0:29:410:29:44

agreement and I'm very confident, I wouldn't be standing this saying to

0:29:450:29:47

you if I didn't believe it, I'm very confident all of these changes will

0:29:480:29:51

come in and they are significant. To the lady who said, will it have an

0:29:520:29:56

effect, today, someone can come into our country, get a job and get on

0:29:570:30:01

top of their first year's salary ?10,000 in extra benefits. Now, that

0:30:020:30:06

will stop if we vote to Remain and my changes go through, which they

0:30:070:30:09

will. But I believe will have a profound effect.

0:30:100:30:14

How long are these changes meant to last, the four years etc, the

0:30:150:30:21

welfare changes? How long are they going to remain? They will last

0:30:220:30:29

until 2028, so if they come in... By then, there will be all sorts of

0:30:300:30:35

other... That is 12 years from now. Yes, you, there. What about people

0:30:360:30:39

with children still wanting to come to our country from the EU? We would

0:30:400:30:44

have a duty of care to those children and families, are you

0:30:450:30:47

saying that they will not get benefits, they will not be able to

0:30:480:30:50

have somewhere to live? Or would we still provide the funding for those

0:30:510:30:54

children to live in this country? The rules would be that if people

0:30:550:31:00

come here to work, and had access to the welfare system, instead of the

0:31:010:31:04

instant access they get now, with tax credits, child tax credits and

0:31:050:31:07

the rest of it, they would have to work for four years before they got

0:31:080:31:12

full access. That is a significant change... But what if they couldn't

0:31:130:31:17

get any work? And they have got children? If they cannot get work

0:31:180:31:20

and they cannot support themselves, they have to go home. They too. This

0:31:210:31:26

is very important. We would have a duty of care to those children when

0:31:270:31:35

they came to the country. Because they are children. The freedom to

0:31:360:31:37

work is not an unqualified right, this is really important, I am not

0:31:380:31:40

sure we have got this across. If you cannot support yourself and you

0:31:410:31:43

cannot find a job, you have to go home. That is being strengthened

0:31:440:31:46

under our rules. It is very important, because it is the freedom

0:31:470:31:51

of movement to work, not to claim. OK, we will move on, yes. Mr

0:31:520:31:57

Cameron, you say that your policy that you have negotiated with Europe

0:31:580:32:02

cannot be overruled. It can. So are you really the 21st century Neville

0:32:030:32:06

Chamberlain waving a piece of paper in the air, saying to the public,

0:32:070:32:14

this is what I have, I have this promise, where a dictatorship in

0:32:150:32:17

Europe can overrule it? APPLAUSE

0:32:180:32:23

Simple question, yes or no please! The other 27 Prime Ministers and

0:32:240:32:27

presidents have agreed it, and they know if Britain votes to remain,

0:32:280:32:32

they will implement it. I think, you know, this is not an empire or

0:32:330:32:37

dictatorship... It is the principal. We are proving through this

0:32:380:32:40

referendum that if Britain wants to leave this organisation, we can. We

0:32:410:32:44

are a sovereign country, we choose to join Nato or the EU, and if we

0:32:450:32:49

choose to leave, we can leave. But if we do, that is it. We are walking

0:32:500:32:56

out the door, we are quitting, giving up on this organisation

0:32:570:32:59

which, even if we leave, will have a huge effect on our lives, our

0:33:000:33:02

children, how opportunities, how businesses. I do not think Britain

0:33:030:33:06

is a quitter, we stay and fight, that is what we should do.

0:33:070:33:10

CHEERING No, no, wait... You have made the

0:33:110:33:19

point. Let me make one more point, I sit two yards away from the Cabinet

0:33:200:33:23

room where Winston Churchill decided in 1942 fight on against Hitler, the

0:33:240:33:28

best, the greatest decision anyone has made in our country, right? Now,

0:33:290:33:32

he did not want to be alone, he wanted to be fighting with the

0:33:330:33:35

French and others, but he did not quit on Europe, he did not quit on

0:33:360:33:39

European democracy, European freedom. We want to fight for those

0:33:400:33:49

things today, and you cannot win, you cannot fight if you are not in

0:33:500:33:52

the room. You cannot win a football match if you are not on the pitch!

0:33:530:33:53

APPLAUSE Let's... Let's turned to a question

0:33:540:33:56

where you will be in the room if Britain remains. Michael Tindale.

0:33:570:34:02

Thank you. Prime Minister, will you be to the accession of Turkey into

0:34:030:34:07

the EU? I don't think it's going to happen for decades, so as far as I

0:34:080:34:11

am concerned, the question does not arise. This is the biggest red

0:34:120:34:15

herring in this whole referendum debate.

0:34:160:34:19

APPLAUSE I cannot find a single expert

0:34:200:34:23

anywhere in the country or in Europe that things that Turkey is going to

0:34:240:34:26

join the EU in the next three decades. Let me explain why. To

0:34:270:34:32

join, you have to open and close and negotiate 35 chapters, they have

0:34:330:34:36

done one. In this rate they will join in the 3000. I feel strongly

0:34:370:34:39

about this, because people are getting through their letterboxes

0:34:400:34:44

leaflets from Leave saying, basically, Turkey is going to join

0:34:450:34:47

the EU, not true, there's going to be a European army with Britain in

0:34:480:34:56

it, not true, and we give ?350 million with the Brussels, not true.

0:34:570:34:59

If we want to both macro to leave, let's not do it on the basis of

0:35:000:35:01

three things that are completely untrue. -- if we want to vote to

0:35:020:35:07

leave. All right, well, let's just... What you said in Turkey was,

0:35:080:35:13

in terms of Turkish membership, I very much support that. What he is

0:35:140:35:18

asking is, if it comes up, will you be to it? It is not going to come

0:35:190:35:24

up. Well, wait a minute. It will come at some time, Michael Gove

0:35:250:35:28

thinks in our lifetime or his. You say it will be three decades away. I

0:35:290:35:33

am not going to be Prime Minister in three decades time! Everybody talks

0:35:340:35:35

about their children and grandchildren. They will be in that

0:35:360:35:41

world. If this was going to happen in the next couple of years, I would

0:35:420:35:45

not supported, but it is not going to. This is about 30, 40 years'

0:35:460:35:51

time, and I am not going to be Prime Minister in 30 or 40 years' time. It

0:35:520:35:55

is a red herring. The people who have decided to Vote Leave,

0:35:560:36:00

obviously, it is a choice, it is a referendum, but to do it on the

0:36:010:36:05

basis of Turkey joining the EU, you would be voting to damage our

0:36:060:36:08

economy on the basis of something that is not going to happen, and

0:36:090:36:16

that would be a crazy thing to do. Why can't you just say, I want the

0:36:170:36:20

world to know that I would attempt to this? Stop the discussion, no

0:36:210:36:23

more talk about it. APPLAUSE

0:36:240:36:26

Let me explain why Britain has always been very favourable to

0:36:270:36:30

Turkey. We want Turkey to be a Western leaning country, we want it

0:36:310:36:34

to be a democracy, to have a rule of law. We do not want it to imprison

0:36:350:36:38

journalists, frankly it is not going well at the moment. But let me say

0:36:390:36:42

again, because for people watching at home, I don't want anyone to vote

0:36:430:36:49

in this referendum on the basis of Turkey joining the EU, just like the

0:36:500:36:54

European army or the 350 million, which are not true. Those three, the

0:36:550:36:58

three leading things on their leaflets, are simply not true, and

0:36:590:37:02

it would be a tragedy if we damaged our economy, wrecked job prospect in

0:37:030:37:05

this country on the basis of three things that are completely untrue.

0:37:060:37:12

APPLAUSE Obviously, immigration has been the

0:37:130:37:16

most pressing issue for most people. I just wonder how much you would

0:37:170:37:20

accept personal responsibility for austerity in the country that is

0:37:210:37:25

fuelling this? Because people are concerned, because they feel that

0:37:260:37:28

there is pressure on the public services, and would you agree that

0:37:290:37:32

is the effect of the Conservatives, rather than the effect of

0:37:330:37:34

immigration? APPLAUSE

0:37:350:37:39

Well... Obviously, I will defend all the things that my government has

0:37:400:37:42

done over the last six years to try to get our economy back on track,

0:37:430:37:46

and I know people will disagree with some, maybe many of the decisions,

0:37:470:37:50

but I think it is incontrovertible that the economy is moving forward,

0:37:510:37:54

we have created over 2 million jobs, we are seeing opportunities again

0:37:550:37:57

for people in our country, and what I passionately do not want to

0:37:580:38:00

happen, after all the hard work the British people have put in, is to go

0:38:010:38:06

back to square one, to damage our economy, to put up borrowing, to see

0:38:070:38:09

more austerity because you would have this gap in our public

0:38:100:38:12

finances. I think that is the worst thing for us to do to our country,

0:38:130:38:17

we do not have to do it, we can vote for a stronger economy by voting

0:38:180:38:24

Remain. The leader of your campaign, Lord Rose, gave evidence and said

0:38:250:38:28

the price of labour will frankly go up if we leave the EU, people will

0:38:290:38:34

be better off if we'll even EU. The overwhelming majority of experts...

0:38:350:38:38

Each is your leader! If we leave, you will see the economy supper. Why

0:38:390:38:43

did he say this? If you look at the full context... I have it here, I

0:38:440:38:51

can read it. If free movement were to end, is it not reasonable to

0:38:520:38:54

suppose that we could see increases in wages for low skilled workers in

0:38:550:39:00

the UK? Lord Rose, well, if you are short of labour, the price will

0:39:010:39:04

frankly go up, so yes. And any goes on to say a lot of other things. And

0:39:050:39:08

any says, that is not necessarily a good thing! You about independent

0:39:090:39:14

organisation saying that the economy would suffer, and if half of your

0:39:150:39:19

exports go to a single market of 500 million people, if you damage your

0:39:200:39:22

access to that market, by definition, you will be less well

0:39:230:39:26

off. We can talk about the freedom of movement, I don't want the

0:39:270:39:29

movement of British car workers per or jobs to go to the People making

0:39:300:39:41

ebb as wings to go to the Continent. -- Airbus wings. The overwhelming

0:39:420:39:45

majority of young people want to remain in the European Union. All

0:39:460:39:51

the polls do. Would it be fair on them, they are the future, if their

0:39:520:39:56

future is changed in this referendum?

0:39:570:39:57

APPLAUSE I very much hope... I very much

0:39:580:40:03

hope, in this referendum, that people will talk across generations,

0:40:040:40:06

I absolutely agree with you, sir, for young people this is a decision

0:40:070:40:10

they will have to live with for all of their lives, because I think this

0:40:110:40:13

is irreversible. I do not think there is any way back in, as I have

0:40:140:40:18

described. I hope that young people talk to parents and grandparents,

0:40:190:40:22

discuss what this means in terms of opportunity. It is clear that there

0:40:230:40:28

are more opportunities for being in an organisation of 28 different

0:40:290:40:30

countries, being able to live, work and study in different places in

0:40:310:40:33

Europe, having the strength of numbers in order to drive the great

0:40:340:40:37

trade deals we need. Our single market is a bigger market than the

0:40:380:40:40

whole of China, a bigger and richer economy than the whole of America.

0:40:410:40:44

We will only get better trade deals if we stay in, and that will be good

0:40:450:40:47

for young people, jobs and opportunity. A question from

0:40:480:40:53

porosity, please. Hi. Why do we have to keep subsidising poorer EU

0:40:540:40:58

countries through our ever increasing contribution with the NHS

0:40:590:41:04

and certain UK industry is being more deserving of these funds?

0:41:050:41:07

APPLAUSE We have only got a minute or two.

0:41:080:41:16

The EU budget is going down. 8.5 billion a year, just to give

0:41:170:41:20

people... But there is no saving from leaving. If you leave and your

0:41:210:41:23

economy is smaller, fewer people in work and less taxes, there would be

0:41:240:41:28

a cost to leaving, and that is what all of these economists are saying.

0:41:290:41:32

Again, people who vote believing there will be a dividend from

0:41:330:41:35

leaving are wrong. We are going to lose money if we leave. You ask

0:41:360:41:42

about the cost... Subsidising poorer countries. Some countries severed

0:41:430:41:46

and the commoners and... How many countries contribute to the EU

0:41:470:41:51

budget and how many take? From when we first joined in 1972 and today we

0:41:520:41:59

give to a lot more than we did then. France used to be a net benefit, but

0:42:000:42:07

France, Germany and we all pay in more than we get out, but we get

0:42:080:42:11

more back in terms of jobs and growth and we put in. All the people

0:42:120:42:15

who have looked at this age, far from them being a saving by leaving,

0:42:160:42:22

there would be a cost to leaving. That is why there were proposals for

0:42:230:42:27

a Budget last week. Be quick, if you would. Surely the deal on the table

0:42:280:42:32

is just a starting point, it is not black and white, this is the deal

0:42:330:42:35

that is on the table at the moment, but surely you will be looking for

0:42:360:42:38

further reform to take to the EU on things like the principles of

0:42:390:42:42

freedom of movement and other issues that are sensitive in this campaign.

0:42:430:42:48

Where you are absolutely right is that if we stay, we can work for

0:42:490:42:52

more reform. If we leave, reform is over, we are out, we have quit and

0:42:530:42:56

walked away. Britain does have a special status. Our membership is

0:42:570:43:00

not like anybody else's, we are not voting on the basis of French or

0:43:010:43:04

Italian mentorship. We are out of the euro, we keep the pound, we are

0:43:050:43:09

in the single market but we have kept our borders and do not have the

0:43:100:43:12

Schengen system. We are out of ever closer union. This is a special

0:43:130:43:15

status, and we should be working to enhance that. If we vote to get out,

0:43:160:43:21

we lose it for ever. Question Time has no special status, we have to

0:43:220:43:25

make way for the football! So that ends this special edition. We will

0:43:260:43:29

be back next Thursday week after the vote in Preston, so I hope you will

0:43:300:43:33

join us then. In the meantime, my thanks to the Prime Minister and all

0:43:340:43:38

of you who came here to Milton Keynes to take part. Thank you are

0:43:390:43:39

much! Thank you. who want to show us how good they

0:43:400:44:12

are in the kitchen. Many of them can sing, dance, act.

0:44:130:44:17

We don't care about that.

0:44:180:44:21

David Dimbleby presents the second of two special editions of Question Time. Prime minster David Cameron MP answers questions on the case for remaining in the European Union from an audience in Milton Keynes.

This follows the previous special edition featuring justice secretary Michael Gove MP.


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