30/06/2016 Question Time

After the referendum, political chaos.

Tonight, we hear what the voters think. It's Question Time.

We are in Preston, Lancashire, tonight,

and welcome to you all and to our panel.

The Conservative education minister Sam Gyimah,

Labour's new shadow foreign secretary -

one of the few people to start and end the week in the shadow cabinet -

Emily Thornberry,

the one Ukip Member of Parliament, Douglas Carswell,

the Times columnist Melanie Phillips and the comedian Russell Kane.

As ever, Facebook and Twitter if you want to comment.

Lynn Gettings, kick off for us tonight.

Is it feasible to have access to the single market

and still control our borders?

If not, which is more important?

Goes to the very heart of what happens after the Brexit vote.

Is it feasible to have access to a single market

and still control our borders? Melanie Phillips, you go.

I believe that, technically, it is,

but that most of the discussion has been about, for example,

the Norway model, which is the group of countries

in the European Economic Area which have access to the single market

but which adhere to the rules of free movement of people.

And that is what most of the discussion has been about.

I believe that it is possible to negotiate a deal

with the single market without having loss of border control.

I am also led to believe...

-A deal, sorry, access to the single market, meaning no tariffs?

-Yes.

Just as we have at the moment?

-I believe so...

-Why do you believe it?

Because I have been given to understand that is the case,

but I am phrasing what I say very cautiously,

because for every expert you talk to,

you find someone else who says something different.

Quite honestly, I think all of us

are in a state of complete bewilderment,

because every time somebody knowledgeable

opens their mouth about this,

you get a completely different impression.

What I do think is that it's very tempting for politicians

to go for the easiest option, to try and square a circle.

There is clearly a potential conflict,

clearly an absolutely potential conflict

between the European Union rules that they lay down,

the core of which is free movement of peoples, and the single market.

And we can all hear European Union officials saying

you cannot have one without the other.

You are in a club, you have to adhere to the rules.

So it comes down to who... It's a game of poker.

Oh, really, just a game?

-Yes, well, it's a game of poker.

-No absolute rules?

It's a turn of phrase, David.

But the country voted.

I don't know how many people in this audience voted Brexit,

but I know all the evidence is that a lot of people

voted Brexit because of control over immigration.

Yes, what I'm trying to say is this -

it is a game of poker,

and it all depends on whether our future Prime Minister,

whoever he or she may be,

is tough enough to give the European Union the impression that

we are negotiating from a position of strength

and that we have what they want,

in which case all bets are off, they will give us what we want.

If, however, we give them the impression...

This is my personal view. ..that we are weak,

that we are divided, that we are timid,

then we are giving them the opportunity

to set the rules as they want them to be.

All right, let's pause... Thank you very much.

You in the third row there, yes.

But are we now in a position to cherry-pick?

We have voted to leave the European Union,

so how can we now pick and choose

the best parts of the internal market?

I quite agree, but that's why I'm saying it's all about politics.

Sam Gyimah, can you pick up her point?

-Can you cherry-pick?

-A very good question.

The original question was

whether we can get a deal around single market and not free movement.

I voted for Britain to remain in the EU mainly because

I believe the opportunities for the next generation made it,

on balance, the right decision for us as a country.

Today, our country is divided, given the referendum result.

A significant number voted for Remain,

but the majority in this country voted to leave the EU.

On that basis, as a democrat, difficult though it is

for people to accept, we have to accept the referendum result.

What do you think was the key to the result?

Was it immigration or the political business of leaving the EU?

I think the key to the result was that people felt

they weren't being listened to.

They felt there were these bureaucrats in Brussels...

But what do they want people like you to hear?

On what issue were they not being listened to?

On free movement, I think what it is,

is that business as usual on free movement cannot continue.

We have to do something about free movement in any deal

we strike with the EU.

OK, and do you think - to go to the questioner's point -

we can have a single market AND still control the borders,

still control immigration?

We can trade in goods and services and negotiate a deal that is right

for Britain, but it will require, as Melanie pointed out,

tenacity from whoever is Prime Minister,

in order to strike that deal.

OK, the woman in yellow up there, second row from the back.

I think we are kidding ourselves that they are going to be

prepared to give us the deal that we want.

They will want to make an example of us, because if they don't

make an example of us, it will be a domino effect and one country

after another will want to leave,

and that would mean the disintegration of the EU.

APPLAUSE

Douglas Carswell, can you pick up on that point?

-Do you agree with her?

-Let's be absolutely clear,

we can have unrestricted access to the single market

without being in the single market.

In other words, a British company would have to comply

with single market rules when selling to the single market.

That doesn't mean we have to comply

with single market rules every other occasion.

Let me tell you why we could have access to the single market

without accepting the free movement of labour.

Already today, from non-EU Iceland to non-EU Turkey,

there is tariff-free unrestricted trade in goods.

That exists today.

There are many countries round the world...

27 countries round the world have increased exports

to the single market faster from outside

than we have managed from within.

So access to the single market is not the same thing

as being in the single market,

I think this may be where some of the confusion arises.

Well, answer her. She thinks you won't be allowed to do that,

you say, "It's easy-peasy, we can just do it."

We already know that Angela Merkel very clearly said two days ago,

"We want a reasonable deal."

The head of the German equivalent of the CBI,

the Confederation of British Industry, in Germany,

made it quite clear that they do not want to put tariffs,

and the reason they don't want to put tariffs

is very straightforward - last year, we bought £60 billion worth

of more stuff from them than they bought from us.

They are the principal beneficiaries.

We've heard that all during the campaign,

but why should they suddenly say, "Well, you've gone, you can

"have exactly the same deal as you had before"?

Because it's in the interests of German workers,

French factories, Polish industrialists -

it's in their best interest.

Emily Thornberry, do you believe

we can have exactly the same deal like Douglas says?

I think it's all nonsense. I think it's all nonsense.

I'm very disappointed in this result,

I'll lay my cards on the table.

I campaigned really hard for us to remain in the European Union,

and the reason I did

was because I thought that it was best for our country.

I didn't think the European Union is perfect,

but I think it's best for our country.

But now what we have ended up with is a Tory government who have

put this referendum in front of the British people,

they have no plan B, they have no answers to any

of these questions now, they're the ones who put...

They said, "Oh, let the British people decide,"

and yet they had no plan in case the British people decided

not to do what the Prime Minister wanted.

But Douglas Carswell has a reply, he says it'll just carry on as before.

I'll tell you what - if you listen to Douglas Carswell,

and then two minutes later...

-Six...

-Hang on, hang on.

..and then two minutes later, you listen to Boris Johnson,

then two minutes later, you listen to Michael Gove,

they'll all say different things because they do not have

a clear idea of what it is they have done to this country.

They have led us into this dark space and abandoned us,

and we do not know what it now means.

It's all very well for people to say,

"We'll negotiate a decent deal,

"and of course the Europeans will be very kind to us."

We do not know that and we are now in their hands,

-and as for taking back control...

-Point made, Emily.

..that is not what has happened.

Six out of ten people in Lancashire voted to leave the EU.

It's quite extraordinary that the shadow minister - there is

still a shadow minister left in the Labour Party -

should say that we should disregard the outcome.

That is quite extraordinary.

I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

APPLAUSE I'll come back to you.

The man at the very back with the spectacles. Yes.

I voted in, but the majority of people

that I spoke to the day after and said, "Who voted out?"

I said, "Why did you vote out?"

and not one of them could give me a reason.

They all said, "Well, I was convinced it would

"solve the immigration problem, I'm not sure," so there's so...

Like the Labour lady said.

I think the man in front of you who thrust his hand up,

did you vote out? Yes, you explain.

Yes, the reason I voted out

is because when David Cameron went to renegotiate our deal

with the European Union, I don't think he got what we wanted.

APPLAUSE

And some people think there's a whiff of betrayal

by the Brexit campaign, do you think you're going to get what you wanted?

I think we are better off out of the EU,

because I think we have too many chiefs and not enough Indians

where the EU are concerned. They're telling us what to do all the time.

OK. Russell Kane.

Well, as more of a layman, as far as I understand,

you can't have access to the single market... Sorry, not access.

You can't be IN the single market without having

the free movement of labour.

You have to have both those things together.

Now, I'm in a bit of a weird position. Cards on the table.

Yes, I did vote Remain. I think

there's a lot of things wrong with the EU. I did vote Remain.

But at the weekend, I don't hang out in showbiz circles,

I hang out with my cousins, my family,

I still live near where I grew up,

and there's no-one amongst my family group

that didn't vote Brexit. No-one.

And I can tell you now,

I can dress it up for you but I'm not going to -

these people voted cos they think

there are immigrants coming over here driving down wages.

This is what people are scared about in Essex,

where I'm growing up. This is what people are saying.

On the day of the vote there were...

I won't say who, members of my family dancing round

saying, "They're going home, they're going home!"

These are carpenters, plumbers and labourers who think

their wages will increase once these people leave the country.

So if you join the single market

and then we have free movement of labour,

you'll have a lot of angry people

wondering what the hell they voted for in the first place.

It was Boris and the likes who took us into this.

It's absolutely disgusting today

that the clown with the hammer has left the circus

and the mess he created and vacated the scene.

APPLAUSE

We've heard from a number of people who voted Remain.

Can I hear from someone who voted Leave, who rather share the view...

You did, over there. Yes.

The woman in green there. Yes.

I think the euro has problems, they can't control the borders.

It does affect the EU, and the profligacy and the rules of the EU,

we have been a great trading nation in our own right

and we could be still. We can access other markets.

Do you think you'll get what you wanted or what you voted for?

There'll be strong negotiation,

but I heard the French were a bit gentle on this immigration.

Anybody else who voted Brexit? Let's just stick with that for a moment.

You, sir, down there. Yes.

I voted Brexit and I did so entirely on economic grounds,

not migration grounds.

Indeed, I hope the UK government going forward

will sustain our overseas budget, overseas aid budget.

But, Mr Carswell, I, like you,

voted to get out from underneath an EU that doesn't work.

I, like you, I suspect,

want to see hotshot trade negotiators sent across the globe

to bring back lucrative deals to make us richer and more successful.

But unlike you, I don't work for

an odious individual who stands in front of dreadful posters.

APPLAUSE

OK. One more thing,

because we have heard some people talking about why they voted Brexit.

I'd like to hear if there is anybody who wanted to put the point that

you made about your family, carpenters and plumbers

saying, "When we have fewer people here, wages will rise."

Do you agree with that, sir? You in blue?

-I'm a plumber.

-Oh, good.

-And I see this across our industry,

businesses using cheaper labour, which is their choice, of course,

but it is affecting our work.

And how did you vote?

-Leave, sorry, yeah.

-And what do you think will happen now?

-You can put down your hand.

-Sorry, I forgot!

-It's all right.

I think it could slow it down a little bit, I hope.

That's all. Do you expect immigration to stop or not?

-No.

-No, OK.

No, we've heard from you already.

You in the second row, yes.

I'm a little annoyed at how people keep on typecasting

-people who voted Leave.

-APPLAUSE

I know a lot of people who are highly educated.

They are a broad range of ages.

And I'm getting quite annoyed with it.

I have friends and family, who I love on, both sides,

but I'm getting annoyed with what's happening on social media,

people calling people racist and bigots.

The people I know who voted Leave are not like that

and I think the media has a lot to ask for.

It is further fuelling the divisions in society, and I think

a lot of it is to do with the media, and it's fuelling a lot of this.

How is it doing that?

I think what's being portrayed in the media

is swaying a lot of people.

There are different factions now between the people who left and

the people who wanted to remain.

It's causing such problems in society.

We've got riots in Liverpool from far rights and far lefts.

We need to unite together on this, whether you voted in or out,

we need to unite together.

APPLAUSE

But, Melanie, is...?

Is it possible for people to unite in that way,

since the question they answered

was so diametrically opposed to each other?

I think it's an issue which has genuinely divided people

at a very, very profound level.

I'm sure many of you have this experience of family members

who are at each other's throats, who are not talking to each other,

and that is because I think the issue is, first of all,

very, very complicated. I think there are very good arguments...

I am a Brexiteer, I voted Leave.

I think there are very good arguments on the Remain side,

and it's because the arguments are so powerful on both sides

and because the stakes are so high,

and it's because it goes to the very heart of

how we see ourselves as a nation,

how we see ourselves as a country in the world, what our worldview is.

So I think it is a subject that is bound to inflame,

but I do agree with you, I'm a journalist,

and I'm reading the media the whole time, not just the mainstream media

but social media, and the language is appalling on both sides.

And it has definitely inflamed.

If you have the amplification of appalling epithets,

the amplification coming from the media,

so it doesn't just die away, but it's being reproduced.

You have mainstream columnists calling people in terms of insects

and dogs and vermin and sewage.

That's the kind of thing that has been said of the Leave camp,

and I'm sure there are insults on the other side as well

-we can talk about.

-All right.

So I think you are absolutely right, language has consequences,

and I think too many of us forget that.

APPLAUSE Sam. We'll come back to you.

Uniting the country after this referendum, I think,

is the most important thing for the next Prime Minister,

and when I say that, it isn't just the social fabric

of our country which appears to have been frayed since the referendum,

but actually keeping our United Kingdom together is also

going to be absolutely critical,

and that all plays into how we handle the negotiations.

I think it's right that we don't rush into the negotiations.

I think what we should do is

agree our negotiating position as a country

and have the Prime Minister go and really bat for Britain.

-The key thing...

-Sorry. I'm going to stop you.

How do you agree it as a country

when people have completely different views? Or do you mean

just the Prime Minister should agree it or the Tory party?

Well, I am backing, to put my cards on the table, Theresa May

for the Conservative Party leadership contest.

-So leave it to her?

-I was particularly attracted

to her view that we should create

a government department specifically for Brexit with a minister

and they would make sure we have a broad conversation

and actually make sure we have the capacity to go out and negotiate.

I think that is the kind of approach -

deliberate, careful and tenacious.

How do you unite those who felt passionately

that the Remain campaign was the right thing

for them and their families

and people who passionately feel

that Leave and the control over immigration was the right thing?

How do you square this circle?

You can't have one person and we'll do a bit of this and a bit of that.

Well, I voted Remain, as I said.

The way you approach this is we need

and should have a close relationship with the EU.

But it is in our interests to have reform around freedom of movement

just as it is for a lot of other European countries.

The challenges we face in free movement are faced

by Germany, France and many of our other European partners.

That is how we get them to our side of the table in order to negotiate.

OK, Russell Kane.

I've watched this happen in slow motion from where I live.

The squeamishness of people to discuss immigration, in my opinion,

is what led it to be a subject that's got the energy behind it.

There's been a real lack of voices on the left that go, OK,

there are lots of working-class people suffering out there

concerned about immigration. I hear what you're saying.

It doesn't mean you're labelling someone racist or xenophobic

just because they're concerned about immigration,

they're just concerned about immigration.

That should be addressed, talked about,

brought into open water and discussed.

There's no-one on the left.

Where are the voices on the left going,

particularly Labour, going, OK,

the majority of people that traditionally vote Labour

are terrified that their wages are being driven down by immigrants?

Let's shout the argument from the rooftops.

And let's own it and that would steal the energy from the right wing

that have been discussing immigration in this debate.

Where are they, then, Emily?

I went up and down the country and listened to what people said.

And from the view of London,

it looked like the vote was going to go to Remain,

but I was always very worried and I thought it would go the other way.

I went to Warrington and spoke to people when I was there

and again I heard up and down country, half of the country

felt that the current system does not look after them.

You hear about this economic miracle and half the country go,

-"What economic miracle?"

-Russell is saying it's Labour's failure...

-Hang on.

-I'm not going to hang on. Answer Russell Kane.

OK, I think that the way people talk about the threat from migration

is they talk about... The guy at the back was saying

they're worried about the competition, about being undercut.

They're worried about people breathing down their neck,

they're worried that they have to work these hours

and these conditions because somebody else will go cheaper.

Do you know, we can provide a domestic answer to that,

which is to have stronger rules about how we employ people.

We need to have a higher minimum wage

and we need to make sure we have proper rights.

I heard from other people... I heard somebody else say to me,

"Emily, I'm fed up with the fact that I have two grown-up kids

"at home with me, they don't have anywhere to live."

We've either got too many people

in this country or not enough homes.

Do you accept what Russell's saying, which is

Labour has not reacted and not responded to this?

Well, I think ...

You could have taken some of the heat out of the debate

and gone, "We're going to own the immigration debate

"and talk about it from the left."

And it would have pulled the plug on some of the nasty rhetoric.

The way I'm talking is the way we talk about it from the left.

It's about lack of access to resources,

people feeling there's too much competition for resources

because there's not enough resources or public services.

They worry about housing and they worry about jobs

and I understand that and I hear it.

Douglas Carswell, just before you start, there was somebody there...

Who said about the poster and Douglas Carswell?

What was it you said?

-You didn't like it?

-I thought it was a despicable thing.

Which poster are you talking about? Are you talking about the bus?

I'm talking about the poster where Mr Farage was in front of

a long line of migrants.

The breaking point one, yes.

And these weren't Eastern European migrants.

As I'm sure Douglas knows, this was very difficult and awkward...

-Douglas, did you stand in front of that?

-I did not.

But you still stand in front of the 350 million, the financial one?

You didn't like the poster, I didn't like that poster,

I criticised it at the time and I criticised it on the night

of the election when I was last being interviewed by David.

Let me tell you why that poster

was despicable and morally indefensible.

As you point out, those were Syrian refugees,

fleeing a war, going to Slovenia.

It had nothing to do with the debate in the country.

Secondly, I think that poster actually allowed the Remain side,

who wanted to cast aspersions on the values and integrity

and motivations of the Leavers, it gave them ammunition.

But, you know, I've been campaigning passionately to leave the EU.

I think people like me now need to recognise that, yes,

we've won, but it was a very narrow mandate.

And we need to try and reach out to the 48% recognise

they are good, decent, patriotic people who voted the other way.

I listened during the debate to some people

who made some very powerful arguments the other way.

I think we need to recognise that we need a new consensus

and we can bring some of those people are with us.

If I could just... One final thing.

I think that it's really important

that we provide reassurance, first and foremost,

to the two or three million EU nationals living in this country.

I think Theresa May today cast doubt on their status.

I think she needs to urgently clarify that all EU nationals

currently living in this country must absolutely

have their rights here absolutely enshrined.

Just before we... Wait a moment.

Just before we leave you, Douglas,

you are the only Ukip MP in the House of Commons.

How can you belong to a party led by a man who put out that racist poster

which you constantly complain about.

Why don't you leave Ukip?

You sit with Nigel Farage...

Or maybe you're planning, maybe you're planning...

Maybe you're planning to leave Ukip,

but you can't be led by a man who you object on racist grounds

and still remain an MP.

Last time I changed from one party to another,

-I felt it was beholden to...

-When was that?

-2014.

I felt that I had to put myself forward for a by-election.

My constituents have faced a by-election in 2014,

a general election in 2015, a referendum in 2016.

I would think very carefully

about inflicting another by-election on them.

Maybe just change the name of your party.

-I do think...

-Call yourself a Tory or something.

-A leadership challenge?

-A leadership challenge, Emily suggests.

All the other party are doing it. The Greens are doing it,

Labour's doing it, the Conservatives are doing it.

You know, I'm not sure which MP I would back, though.

Let's be serious for a moment. Are you happy being led by Nigel Farage?

I made it very clear in December, in the run-up to this referendum,

angry nativism is no way to win elections in this country.

It doesn't work and it's morally wrong.

We're going to be in Brighton next week.

I'm going to move on to another thing.

We'll be in Brighton next week, and if you want to come to it,

the details are on the screen now.

I want to go on to another question,

cos there's a lot going on, as I said at the beginning.

Margaret Rigby, let's have your question, please.

Is there no shame or loyalty with Michael Gove and Boris Johnson?

No shame or loyalty with Michael Gove...

APPLAUSE

..and Boris Johnson.

Emily Thornbury?

It doesn't look like it.

-It doesn't look like it.

-We'll come to your lot later.

I mean... Michael Gove has been up... He's been talking

in television studios for the last few years saying that he's incapable

of being Prime Minister, he doesn't have the right qualities,

this, that and the other, all sorts of stuff.

Then, all of a sudden,

we hear this odd kind of e-mail coming from his wife

kind of instructing people that he ought to be the one who's standing

because he's the one who can bring Rupert Murdoch with him.

That seems to be just about the only qualification

that she claims he seems to have.

But anyway, whatever's been going on behind closed doors,

it's been enough to frighten off Boris, and Boris has now gone away.

And the point is, what I said before,

it shows that the disarray amongst Brexiteers,

if you heard what Boris promised before the election

and then immediately afterwards, saying, you know,

this referendum wasn't about immigration,

there's no problem with immigration.

People keep being given different stories by these Brexiteers.

So Boris has now taken away his ball and he's off.

And now we've got Michael Gove. And what have we got with Michael Gove?

Michael Gove says that if we vote Brexit,

that will be a contagion, he says,

that will result in the liberation of other countries across Europe

and he's going to go and negotiate on behalf of Britain

if he wins this election. Really?

Really? And how is that going to help us?

And in what way are the Europeans going to help them?

Then he says it doesn't matter,

the fact I've been insulting all the Europeans,

because I'm not going to negotiate on the single market at all,

I don't even want us to be in the single market.

All right. Sam, you're a minister in the government.

What do you make of what's gone on? What happened?

Why has Boris Johnson given up?

-Well...

-Why has Gove suddenly announced,

having worked with him for months,

that he can't provide the leadership to build a team?

-What's going on?

-I'm as baffled and confused as everyone

how two people could work alongside each other,

hand in glove, for three months,

to propose a historic proposal to the country to leave the EU,

they get what they want, celebrate the next day,

and then five days later say, actually, we can't work together.

I'm am as flabbergasted and confused.

But Michael Gove and Boris Johnson are skilled politicians,

I'm sure they can speak for themselves.

Does it reflect rather badly on the Conservative Party?

I'm coming on to that point.

And I think the first thing to say here is

that despite what's on our TV screens, there is a government.

David Cameron is still Prime Minister.

David Cameron is still Prime Minister,

he was at the EU Council this week batting for Britain,

we know that George Osborne is working with the G-7

and the Bank of England to stabilise the current situation,

because whichever side you're on - Leave or Remain -

it is clear that we face an uncertain economic situation.

And it is the job of the government

to make sure that we come out of it well.

We saw Mark Carney earlier today talking about possible

interest rates cuts to stimulate the economy.

So let's not confuse the soap opera which is the Conservative

leadership election with what is happening in the government.

There was laughter when you said we have a government

because nobody really believes we do have a government at the moment.

Do you believe we have a government? The woman there in blue?

-We do.

-What do you think?

What I wanted to ask was,

how can they expect to be taken seriously

to go to the negotiating table

when our political system is in such utter turmoil?

APPLAUSE

Look, I would be the first to agree with you

that politicians haven't covered themselves in glory.

It's not just the Conservative Party leadership, Labour is in chaos.

And if you think it's all a mess, you'd be right to think so.

But I think the way out of it, for me personally,

is to back the right person to become our Prime Minister

who has the credibility, the temperament

and the experience to negotiate in Europe, as you said.

And I believe that is Theresa May.

Well, you've said that several times...

We've got Gove backstabbing now

to somebody who he was supposed to be best buds with.

Melanie Phillips, what do you make of her point?

It does make the House Of Cards look like Playschool, doesn't it?

GENTLE LAUGHTER

I think it's slightly comic to hear politicians being...

absolutely astonished to find there is no shame or loyalty in politics,

but let's pass lightly on from that.

Call me naive, but I'm actually prepared to take Michael Gove

at face value.

Yes, he behaved utterly ruthlessly.

But consider this scenario,

and I think this may be something close to the truth,

you have Boris, we all know what Boris is, a sort of megastar.

And we all know that Boris had to pull himself together during

the referendum campaign, which he made a tremendous effort to do.

He became disciplined, focused,

we didn't get any of this absurd clown appearance,

because he had a very serious job to do,

and all credit to him, he did it extremely well.

And then, according to Michael Gove,

he kind of relaxed and became Boris again, he became shambolic,

he became unreliable, he didn't do what he said...

He didn't do what he was supposed to do.

I'm only reporting what I've been reading.

-Have you been hearing from Michael Gove?

-No, I have not.

He undertook to appoint various people, he didn't.

And Michael Gove, by his own account,

came to the conclusion that Boris was a flake.

Having brought the country to this extraordinary point,

whoever would've thought they would've pulled this off?

Was Michael Gove going to sit back and say, "Well, he is my friend.

-"OK, he's not going to do a very good job..."

-You've given...

-"He's going to pass up the national interest."

-Why did...?

What would you do in those circumstances?

Why did Boris Johnson back off? Because Gove pulled out the rug?

I am not privy to Boris' mind at all, thank goodness.

But it seemed to me

if you have somebody of the stature of Michael Gove...

Michael Gove... We all know Boris was flaky to begin with,

we weren't very sure what side he was on.

He then decided what side he was on and we hoped

he would stick to it for at least five minutes.

Michael Gove was absolutely consistent.

He took a terrible risk.

Boris was in this, we could all speculate, for his own purposes.

Michael had everything to lose from this

and he did it from principle.

If you've got a man like that saying Boris is not up to it,

Boris then, immediately, would have his support draining away from him.

-He knew the game was up.

-Gove for leader, for Melanie.

-I do...

-APPLAUSE

All right. You, sir. Yes.

Personally, I'm very disheartened that David Cameron

felt the need to resign after he's given us this...

-APPLAUSE

-..huge decision.

But personally, as I voted Leave,

and I think that, passionately, we need a Brexiteer...

leader of the Conservative Party to ensure

that Britain gets the best deal out of this situation.

You wouldn't want Theresa May to be Prime Minister,

because she was, nominally at any rate, on the Remain side?

Personally, I don't know. I think we need...

As you were saying, Melanie...

I've forgotten his name.

-Michael Gove.

-Er, Gove?

-Michael Gove.

-Michael Gove.

-LAUGHTER

-That's a good start.

I'm pleased to hear George Osborne's out and about again

after his week in an invisibility cloak.

LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE

Shame and loyalty was Margaret Rigby's question.

There's no shame and loyalty.

I don't think it's an issue whether there's shame and loyalty

when they're clambering for power.

You don't expect it amongst Conservative politicians.

The thing that's disturbing for me is Michael Gove has been like...

You know those toys you pull the string out the back of,

going, "I don't want to be leader, I'm not equipped,

"I'm no good at being leader," for the last year...

Call me naive, but I don't want to hire someone who's told me

they're no good at doing the job over and over again for a year.

-APPLAUSE

-Leaving that aside...

To answer the question,

I always get annoyed watching this programme

when people go off on one, so I don't want to do that...

You don't have to watch this one, cos you're on it.

Just to remind you.

Why is there no shame or loyalty? I imagine what happened...

I think Melanie hit the nail on the head.

Gove and Boris were a great double act.

One did the personality, one did the ideas.

And...

they won, they got back to the bunker and Michael was like,

"Great, we've won. What's next?"

And Boris probably said, "I haven't got a bloody clue. Pub."

-APPLAUSE

-And that's when he thought...

That's when he...

As a man who obviously cares about the country and what happens next,

he thought, "I'm going to have to do the job..."

-Exactly.

-"..which I've said I'm no good at doing over and over again."

-Exactly.

-That's what would've happened.

-OK. The woman there in white.

-Following on from Russell,

Sam, you were saying we have a government.

What have they been doing all week?

Mark Carney this morning told us

about his contingency plan that he put in nearly a week ago.

What has the government been doing for the past week

and where's their contingency plan?

APPLAUSE

You, sir, in the pink shirt.

The disconnect between the general electorate

and the politicians.

What's transpired now is everybody's in it for their personal gain again.

That disconnect, unless they do something,

is just going to continue, so shame on them all.

APPLAUSE

And you, yes.

As a young person,

I went into this referendum really confused and conflicted.

After the referendum, I've come out absolutely confused

and wondering where the hell our government are.

I do not feel this country is being led and it's an absolute shambles.

The government need to pick themselves up

and start leading this country again.

APPLAUSE Did you...?

Did you vote?

-Yes.

-Can you say how you voted?

You don't have to.

All right. Obviously Brexit won.

Do you think the people in charge of the government

are going to deliver what Brexit wanted or not?

I hope so, otherwise they would've let a lot of the population down,

which isn't unusual for politics...

Let's give it a good try.

OK. You, sir, in the blue there.

I think an issue is, whilst I like David Cameron,

I think the issue is that he was too close to the action, I think.

I think he was left in an untenable position,

where he's had to leave because he was on the losing side.

And that's now created the power vacuum.

If he'd just stepped back and let someone else lead that campaign,

and also be a better negotiator in Brussels,

he would've been in a better position to manage the transition.

OK. APPLAUSE

The woman in pink there.

I agree with Douglas Carswell, I'm part of the 48%

and if somebody will lead strongly, I will follow.

I'm proud of Britain.

However, being a teacher in offender learning,

I've experienced him twice, once in education

and once in the justice sector.

If you ask anybody walking the landings on this local prison here,

nobody will want Gove to be Prime Minister because he's incapable...

Douglas Carswell, people are talking about...

whether you can believe what politicians say.

David Cameron said, just before this...

just before it was in full fling,

"Will I carry out the instructions of the British people? Yes,

"I will carry on as Prime Minister."

What did you think of him standing down?

I asked him this in the House of Commons

and he gave me a one-word answer - yes, he would stay in office.

There should something called decency in politics...

-And David Cameron...

-LAUGHTER

..David Cameron...

did promise us a referendum.

So when I asked the question in the House of Commons,

I began by thanking him for giving us the referendum he promised us.

You might like the outcome, you might not like the outcome,

you might be disappointed that he's gone.

I'm no defender of his, but he did what he said he would do

when he stood to be elected Prime Minister.

-Douglas...

-If...

Douglas...

You laughed when he said...

You laughed when he said he wanted decency in politics.

-Why?

-No, I laughed when he said David Cameron should have stayed.

No, you laughed when he said there should decency in politics...

LAUGHTER

Well, Douglas left us to join Ukip, after all.

-Was that wrong?

-Let's focus on David Cameron, that's the issue here.

David Cameron promised a referendum, delivered the referendum,

but the referendum went decisively against him.

Any Prime Minister in that situation

has to accept that it's time for a fresh start.

He hasn't left yet,

he's leaving in three months' time, when a new leader is in post...

I'm trying to find something kind to say about him...

But also...

But during that time...

-The Prime Minister...

-Can I finish what I'm saying?

During that time, he is doing his job as Prime Minister.

I think it's incredibly rich to say we campaign against him,

he lost, but we want him to be there to deliver what we campaigned for.

What's going on now?

At Prime Minister's Questions, he's asked questions like,

you know, we were promised by the Brexiteers

there would be regional money available for Wales,

or some areas around here, extra money available for poorer areas,

the Brexiteers promised that money would still be available if we left,

can you promise that's going to happen?

What has David Cameron said?

"I'm going to have to leave that to the next Prime Minister."

So in what way is he in government?

When the questions are asked of the Prime Minister,

he can answer none of them, because we're holding our breath for months

until we wait until we get a new leader of the Tory party.

Douglas Carswell...

You were halfway through your answer...

I look at some of the soap opera in Sam's party

and some of the tragicomedy in Emily's party

and I wonder, maybe the problem is political parties

have become the property of small cliques at the top of them,

and it's this incestuous game of...

-Game Of Thrones that they play that is the problem.

-Are Ukip...?

-The Ukip parliamentary party...

-Has one person, so it's united.

-LAUGHTER

-We are united.

We had an emergency meeting of the parliamentary party

and I agreed with myself on most things!

LAUGHTER You, two down there. Yes.

I was wondering about the theory that David Cameron

being so passionately on the side of the Remain campaign

forced a lot of Labour supporters who wanted to get rid of him

-to vote for Brexit.

-You think that happened?

-Yeah.

-I think a lot of people...

-Let's turn for a moment to Labour.

There's a question from Lydia, please. Lydia.

Realistically, will Labour ever be electable

under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership?

APPLAUSE

Russell Kane.

OK, so on paper I am your classic Corbyn supporter type person.

I haven't voted Labour for years, ever since Tony Blair...

-Well, let Chilcot sort that one out.

-GENTLE LAUGHTER

When Corbyn became leader, I, like a lot of people, was really excited.

He represented a lot of things I believe in, social justice,

stuff like that. However, what's happened in under a year,

he's been incredibly quiet,

not been loud enough, dogmatic enough, forceful enough,

not held David Cameron to account enough.

I think there's been a disconnect between the things he believes in

and his ability to lead the party to a victory.

The problem we've got is all the people

that are members of the Labour Party, that paid £3 to join,

they're still fans of him, and if I was a member,

I would still be a fan, but he doesn't have any support

from his own MPs in the House of Commons, that's a massive problem.

But for me, the thing that really let me down, Emily,

was during the campaign, I didn't hear enough.

Where are you, Jeremy?

That was the killer blow.

This is... I hate to say it and I know I'll get stick for saying it,

but this is what's probably made him unelectable,

he really let that debate down.

If he was a Brexiteer, he should've come out and said it.

It probably would've been bloody brilliant if he did.

He would've called the EU on the things

that are actually wrong with it, even though I voted Remain.

It being undemocratic, bloated,

stuffed full of elites lining their pockets.

He could've attacked all of that,

we could've had him versus David Cameron,

a much better debate instead of descending into posters of Syrians

and immigration chants and stuff like that. It would've been...

All right. Emily...

-You... You didn't vote for him, you voted for Yvette Cooper.

-Yes.

And you're kind of the last woman standing now...

40 people supporting him, including you. It's a bit of a mystery.

Where do I start?

I've no idea. GENTLE LAUGHTER

I think...

After this Brexit vote, we have, and people have said it,

we have seen the establishment doing what people thought

the establishment does, which is just looking after itself.

People have, instead of thinking about the jobs of people in Britain,

have been thinking about David Cameron's job

and Jeremy Corbyn's job, and whether they can get them or not.

I personally think that is irresponsible

at a time when our country needs us.

APPLAUSE

-Emily...

-Sorry, wait a minute...

I don't know what the establishment you're referring to is,

but Lydia's question was

will Labour ever be electable under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership?

I think that the Labour Party has changed a lot in the last year

and I think it's changed for the better.

I think the reason it's changed is because of Jeremy's influence.

The way in which we now talk about austerity,

and anti-austerity measures, we have changed it.

The meeting of the Parliamentary Labour Party, when everybody

was having a go at Jeremy, nobody had a go at him about his politics.

He talks about...

The politics that he aspires is something that has become

much more mainstream, and he has achieved that.

In the end, what politics is about

is about changing people's lives for the better.

We now have answers when it comes to things like housing.

I'm going to ask Lydia to repeat her question.

I repeated it, you didn't take any notice of me. Take notice of Lydia.

Repeat the question, Lydia.

Realistically, will Labour ever be electable

-under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership?

-Electable is the question.

-Yes.

I think, for example, before we have any negotiations with the

European Union, I personally think we should have a general election.

Those negotiations should be led by the Labour Party and our values.

By Jeremy Corbyn?

Of course by Jeremy Corbyn, because he's the leader of the Labour Party.

There is a leadership team in the Labour Party, not just one person.

Although Douglas may say...

What did you say? Political parties are a clique at the top.

Well, the Labour Party is not.

We are a third of a million people.

Jeremy was elected by 60% of that third of a million

less than a year ago.

And 172 MPs want him out, of his own MPs.

And I think it is incumbent on us to have some cool heads

and to think through what is best for the country,

and what is best for the country means a united opposition

that can speak clearly.

The woman there in the dress... Yes, you.

Does Labour left have an anti-Semitic problem?

I think the report Shami Chakrabarti came out with today

was a really thoughtful piece of work,

and she says that there is a problem.

We reflect our society.

It's not rampant within the Labour Party,

but we ought to hold ourselves to a higher standard, frankly...

-Melanie...

-Politicians in our Labour Party should hold ourselves

even at a higher standard than that.

Melanie, do you want to answer that point about

whether there's a problem with anti-Semitism in the Labour Party?

I think there's a problem on the left generally

with attitudes to Israel and attitudes to Jews.

I think Shami Chakrabarti's report is, I'm afraid...

I think she was trapped by her extremely narrow terms of reference,

which have simply prevented her from getting to grips

with the appalling things that have been said

and why they were said by certain members of the Labour Party,

and the report is full of platitudes and banalities.

If I can get back to the question we were asked,

I mean, I am no fan of Jeremy Corbyn whatsoever.

I think he is a disaster for all the reasons that we all know.

I'm also extremely concerned by what I read about the thuggery

which appears to be being perpetrated by the Momentum people

supporting Jeremy Corbyn, against other members of the Labour Party.

So, I'm concerned about that. However,

I think the Labour Party's problem is not Jeremy Corbyn,

the Labour Party's problem is itself.

If you look at the last several years,

it has lost millions and millions of its own core vote.

Why has it lost them?

Because it has no convincing story any more

-that relates to those people.

-Nonsense...

The Labour Party... Forget Jeremy Corbyn,

the Labour Party

-has become basically an Islington dinner party...

-That's nonsense.

..and has lost the faith of millions of working-class people.

APPLAUSE

Melanie, the problem with your analysis is,

if you look to the last council elections, when everybody said,

"Jeremy's a terrible leader, nobody's going to vote,"

actually, we did better in those council elections

than we had done during the previous parliament.

That's the truth.

You can't just turn your back on the fact that there are

loads of people who vote Labour and identify with us.

There are millions of people who voted Brexit

in the north of England and elsewhere

who are prime candidates for voting Ukip at the general election.

The man up there, just past the barrier there. Yes.

I'm originally from Oldham. You won a landslide.

I can assure you, you put a red rosette on a donkey,

they'll vote it in Oldham. I'm sorry, but they will.

So, do you think...?

But we don't put red rosettes on donkeys.

We don't want to insult the voters of Oldham...

I'm from Oldham, so I can...

LAUGHTER

Do you think that Labour can win under Corbyn?

I'm a Tory.

I couldn't care...

Well, you can still... If you're a Tory, you ought to care.

To me, he's a liability, so...

Under Labour, as she said, they're unelectable.

-So you'd like him to stay, presumably?

-Yes.

-Sam.

If you're Conservative, you can look at the Labour Party

and think, actually, the Labour Party is in such chaos,

this should be brilliant for us,

but we had the spectre in the House of Commons

where the Prime Minister was saying to the Labour Party,

"Sort yourselves out."

This is an embarrassment.

You've got a Labour leader where 80% of his MPs are not on his side.

That is not good for our democracy, even though I am a Conservative.

We do need an opposition to scrutinise things.

He might have been... He might have been

making a bit of mischief, because

if a Tory Prime Minister insults the Labour Leader of the Opposition,

it's a good chance that Labour people

will rally round the Leader of the Opposition.

-So maybe he was just trying to keep him there.

-That's a bit detailed.

-I don't think so.

-No? You think he really felt it?

I don't think so, no.

Douglas Carswell, I'll come back to you, sir.

It's almost the perfect bind for Labour,

because on the one hand they've got Jeremy Corbyn,

who's unelectable, but if the alternative is somehow pro-EU

career Blairites, then they're not going to win with that either.

But I think it's something quite sad because the Labour Party, in this

country, I think has generally been, on many occasions, a force for good.

It was a Labour Prime Minister who introduced

the National Health Service and the welfare state.

It was a Labour Prime Minister who introduced equal pay legislation.

It's quite tragic to see the left in such disarray.

But, you know, the Labour Party, I think, is obliterated in Scotland.

I don't think they'll ever come back.

I think they're very vulnerable in the north of England.

If there was a credible party with the right values

and the right motivation, they could displace

Labour in the north of England, just as the SNP has done in Scotland.

But I think something more profound is happening.

The left, in this country,

has always been about trying to organise our lives for us

by grand design, and I think, in a digital age,

it becomes impossible for politicians to try to

organise human, social and economic affairs by grand design.

-And this makes, I think, the left existentially doomed.

-OK.

I'm going to move on. We've got five minutes or so left.

We're seeing the death of the Labour Party as we know it.

-You what?

-We are seeing the death of the Labour Party.

Oh, for heaven's sake! They will not get the death of the Labour Party!

It will get its act together.

We need to have cool heads and we need to work out...

You were calling for a general election a few minutes ago!

I wanted to have a general election and I think that we should.

I do not trust the Tories to get us

-out of Europe without hurting people.

-If Jeremy Corbyn...

You are the roadblock to reform.

If Jeremy Corbyn remains there and the 172 MPs

who don't want him challenged -

there's a challenge by Angela Eagle or whoever it is -

and Jeremy Corbyn still wins, and you've got 172 MPs who won't support

him cos they won't rally round, will the party split?

Would that be the sensible thing?

-No, we mustn't split.

-I know you say you mustn't, but will it?

-No, no, no, no, no!

-How would you avoid it?

What do you do with these 172?

Well, as I say, I think that we need to...

We're going through a very difficult time.

I'm not going to pretend we're not going through a very difficult time.

And it's being played out and people can see it, but we need to...

People need to remember how important the Labour Party is

to our country and a good opposition is to our country,

and they need to calm down and think about what is good for the party

-and come back together again.

-OK.

Emily, you were one of the people stopping the reform that

would make the Labour Party an effective opposition.

What are you talking about?

Well, you're the last man standing in the shadow cabinet.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no!

The point is, is that Jeremy has a 60% mandate.

We are a democratic party, you know. We are a democratic party.

I don't know how many Tory members you're going to have

voting in your elections, but we had a third of a million.

-And that means something.

-And your responsibility to the voters?

-We are a large collective.

-The country?

And, of course, our responsibility is to the electors,

and I pointed to the results in the council elections

just, you know, very recently, which were good results

-and we're taking it in the right way.

-All right.

And I'm not saying that, you know,

we don't have some difficult decisions to make, and

we need to be able to come together and work out the best way forward.

-All right.

-We are currently in a mess,

-but we cannot remain like that for much longer.

-OK.

We'll take one last... We've only got a few minutes.

Tracy Thompson, let's have your question.

It's for Douglas Carswell, really.

When can we expect to see the millions of pounds

promised to the NHS? Cos we need it as soon as possible.

£350 million a week is what you claimed

-and you still stand in front of a poster saying it.

-Absolutely.

We will see more money going into the NHS. At the moment, we pay...

-350?

-100 million a week.

At the moment, we pay £10.6 billion net to the EU.

Approximately half of that, 5.2 billion -

that's 100 million a week - will go on the NHS.

That will come into effect, I hope, when we leave,

which will be within two to four years.

50 million a day, you say. What do you think, Melanie?

Is it going to happen? Ever going to happen?

Or was it just part of the propaganda for your campaign

-to leave?

-I am very hard...

I'm trying very hard to suppress my natural

and very unpleasant cynicism about political promises like this,

but the general point remains, I think, valid for me that,

by and large - and we can all argue about the figures - Britain

is paying a huge amount into the EU, which is money better spent...would

be money better spent on essential services in this country.

Would politicians actually do so?

Well, you know, "Are they all snake oil salesman or not?"

is a moot point.

But I also think - and this may be an unfashionable thing to say -

but I think that the problems of the NHS cannot be solved by just

throwing more and more money at it.

I think there are serious...

APPLAUSE

-Yes?

-I'm starting to think that I've been played.

One of the reasons that I voted to leave was because of the fact

that they were promised more money into the NHS.

And thinking about it now, I'm probably old enough to know better.

-I shouldn't have put my trust in somebody like Farage.

-Russell Kane.

APPLAUSE

-Do you think she's right?

-Well, I didn't believe it to start with.

I don't think it was Nigel Farage that made the 350 million claim,

though. That was Boris' campaign, I think, that made that.

-Yeah, and Douglas.

-They went along with it.

So I never believed it anyway, but it's going to be irrelevant

because there won't be enough immigrants to staff the NHS

and then the Tory government will sell it off anyway,

-so I wouldn't worry about it.

-All right. Sam, you have to be quick now

cos we're coming towards the end. Do you think it's going to happen?

It was a cynical attempt, knowing that people care about the NHS,

to link the NHS and the EU issue to get people to vote Leave.

And straight after the campaign,

they started welching on that promise. And I think that is wrong.

No-one has retreated an inch from the promise.

We have made it absolutely clear that we would like to see...

350 million a week? Would you reconfirm that now?

100 million a week was the promise.

On the bus, it said 350 million.

Would you reconfirm that?

It was 100 million more for the NHS, 5.2 billion a year. There was...

Don't blind us with science. 350 million a week, yes or no?

100 million a week. It was absolutely clear about this, Sam.

Emily, your go. We've got 30 seconds left.

OK, my go, 30 seconds.

Obviously, it was a lie.

There's going to be a problem if we do hit a recession

because there will be less money being paid in taxes,

because there'll be less money being invested in companies,

because there'll be less people in employment,

and so people won't be able to pay the amount of tax that's necessary

for the NHS. So, never mind the 350 million,

we maybe end up with less money for the NHS,

and what happens if you have a referendum like this,

you've had basically like a pop-up political party

with all kinds of different people just going,

"Oh, we can get up and we can make whatever promise we..."

They won't be accountable because they've all popped down again.

We've seen Boris Johnson pop off, you know,

and wait and see how many other people

just leave all these promises behind.

All right. One brief point from the woman in red there

and then we really must stop. Yes.

You mentioned the Game Of Thrones analogy,

and I must tell you, as the president of the students' union

of the University of Central Lancashire here in Preston,

we've done plenty of work on trying to get people to register to vote

and it does look like the cheapest Game Of Thrones possible,

and in terms of Jeremy Corbyn, he seems to have actually

stirred some movement on young people, and actually looking at

kind of an opposition to the stale, but it takes...

How many voted in the referendum?

How many young people voted in the referendum?

Not enough. I've heard different numbers.

-Somewhere around 30%.

-Not enough, anywhere near,

and something like putting some money back into the NHS,

that was promised, is something that might actually

-give some faith back to young people.

-OK. Thank you very much.

Our time's up. Sorry for those of you who have their hands up.

Question Time moves to Brighton next week

and that is the day after the Chilcot Report on Iraq comes out.

We have Labour's Charlie Falconer on the panel,

a friend of Tony Blair, defender of Tony Blair.

We have the editor of Private Eye Ian Hislop,

who's rather less enthusiastic about Mr Blair, among the panellists,

so don't miss it and, if you'd like to come along to Brighton,

there is the website address and our telephone number.

If you're listening to this on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes on

on Question Time Extra Time, but my thanks to our panel here,

to all of you who came to Preston to take part.

Until next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight.