EU Special Highlights Question Time

carriage felt 30 feet before landing on top of a children's ride. As

Now on BBC News we can bring As you some of the highlights

of a special edition of Question Time

After a referendum that revealed a deeply divided country

and has the main political parties falling apart,

We are in Birmingham this evening, a city that was almost evenly

divided between Leave and Remain, and our audience here

Our panel, as always on Question Time, haven't seen any

Now we have, on the side of Leave, the Conservative Justice

Minister Dominic Raab, the deputy leader of Ukip,

Paul Nuttall, and the parish priest and Guardian

On the side of Remain, the Conservative Business

Minister Anna Soubry, the SNP MP and former First Minister

of Scotland, Alex Salmond, and Labour's Shadow International

And just a word - if you want to use Facebook

or Twitter during the programme to comment on what you

Our hashtag, #bbcqt, text 83981 and you can push

the red button to see what others are saying.

Right, let's get stuck in with their very first question,

and it comes from Chris Abbott, please.

After decades of ignoring the working class, how does it feel

Anna Soubry, how does it feel to be

If I may say, I feel that, you know, that's the sort

of language now that we've got to get away from.

We've got to move forward, we've got to come together.

I can assure you that my roots, as somebody brought up

in North Nottinghamshire, and I like to think I still very

much keep in touch, not only with my constituents but,

you know, with where I came from and everything else,

and I think this debate and this whole referendum has not

I have witnessed language on the streets, which is where I've

been, in the East Midlands, which is where I'm from,

and I have heard words used and language used,

you know, "Immigrants, get all these immigrants out."

I have not witnessed that since I was a student

here in Birmingham back in the mid-70s.

And I am worried about the state of our nation.

proud to have as part and parcel of our fundamental values,

to a large extent has been put aside by too many people.

So now we all need to come back together, we need to rebuild

communities, we need to move on, and we have to put, if I may say,

hope over hatred, and we have to stop preying on prejudice,

Now we've got to come together and get on with the decision...

But my guess is by ignoring the punch on the nose - decades

decades of ignoring the working class - there was a clear division,

wasn't there, in the result of this referendum?

One half of the country, the more prosperous,

And on the other hand, there were people who seemed

to feel, according to everything they said, disaffected,

left out - in the countryside and in some of the poorer cities.

Yes, but it has to be said a lot of people who voted Leave,

and they came from all classes in our society and backgrounds,

and many people who voted Leave voted for reasons I don't agree

with and which were completely honourable, but unfortunately

I think a lot of people also voted Leave for reasons which I am

The immigration thing, and that was wrong.

What were you actually getting at, Chris?

I think what has been exposed by this referendum is the deep

divisions within the country, and Labour strongholds like Walsall,

my hometown, have voted to leave, and all over the country

they have chosen the same idea, to leave.

Now, really, in the past that would never have happened,

so there is massive disconnect I believe, between the parties

and their electorate, to not be able to sort

I was a vicar in Blakemore for a little while so I know

And many people there feel left behind by globalisation,

feel that they haven't been listened to, attended to, and I understand

I think some of that anger has been misdirected, some of that anger has

been exploited by the far right in absolutely disgraceful ways,

and that has to be said, but that anger is...

Who do you mean by the far right, Ukip?

Yeah, I do think that, I think that that Ukip

poster was absolutely disgraceful, and...

It soiled an important argument we were having,

There is a legitimate anger in places where people have been

They have been ignored by London, and now they're being sneered at for

And I just want to say one thing - there are not 17.4 million

And that is absolutely important to say.

Do you want to respond to what he said about Ukip?

Well, look, Ukip certainly isn't a far right party.

We have campaigned against the European Union

since our inception, and I just think this

really was the people versus the establishment.

It was ordinary working class people against the Brussels elite,

against the big banks, against big business,

against Project Fear, and I just want to know

where the Chancellor is at the moment, because he seems

to have disappeared - altogether.

Now, Giles spoke about the sneering now because people were angry.

A Guardian columnist yesterday wrote that we've got Brexit

because of northern crappy towns, places like Preston,

in my constituency, people like Wigan and Blackburn

and Burnley, and I have had enough of this London-centric Metropolitan

and Burnley, and I have had enough of this London-centric metropolitan

snobbery which has infested this country for far too long...

I can exclusively reveal that the Chancellor has been

kidnapped, but nobody is going to pay the ransom,

and that's why you haven't seen him...

In reality, let's face it.

There was the Project Fear on the economy led by

the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, but there was also

the other Project Fear, and that's the one on immigration,

which was at the heart of the Out campaign,

and the consequences, given that the Out campaign won,

the consequences for society of that Project Fear, I think are very deep,

and therefore the first thing that politicians should be doing,

not worrying about the dislocation of their own parties,

but they should be worrying about the dislocation that may

Now I am not a signed up member of the British establishment -

And I am extremely proud that the one political leader

who wasn't turned over by the electorate on Thursday

was Nicola Sturgeon, who got a resounding vote to remain,

in Scotland, in Europe, last Thursday, but I do recognise

that the political establishment who have been rejected

by their electorate better start facing it and better start

reconnecting, and how you do that, how you offer people, though,

reconnecting, and how you do that, how you offer people hope,

because there is only one antidote to fear,

whether it is fear of the economy or fear of immigration,

and that is to offer people hope and a way forward.

OK, let's hear from some members of our audience.

wet and on and, just like me, the majority of young people voted two

remains I just want to know from you what you think the golden

opportunities are for students know that they have left European Union?

-- I am a law student here at the University of Birmingham and, just

like me. APPLAUSE

Can I add a rider to that? Are you a line at the high proportion of young

people who really upset by this were the vote went because a larger

proportion of them voted to remain? I am concerned to make sure all of

the 40% including the young generation are carried with us. I

have to say I think the EU has been disastrous for the young generation

given the levels of youth unemployment in the EU, and

particularly in the Eurozone, rising to 50%. But I think we do need to do

more to spell out the positive vision to carry your generation, but

actually the whole country... But what opportunities are there? What

opportunities do you think will come from Brexit? M's there will be job

opportunities, higher wages... ? You? I am sorry. I would love to

have answered your question but David has moved on -- there will be

job opportunities. What do you say to this 19-year-old who voted to

leave? This is not to be condescending or denigrate but I

think a lot of my generation were naive in this referendum. Speaking

to my peers, many felt they could get change in the EU. I am afraid

all the empirical evidence, David Cameron's renegotiation, and actual

structure of the EU should we were not going to get that.

APPLAUSE Yes, then I will come to... As I

said, you know, we are where we are. We have had a referendum. People

have spoken, they have voted for us to leave the EU and now we must come

together and we must negotiate under half of everybody the best deal. The

other thing I think does need to be said is this. For decades, not

weeks, and I have always believed we were better off in the EU. But for

decades politicians from both the main parties had frankly said the EU

was the route of most of our troubles, and had also, let's be

honest about it, nobody had really made a positive case for immigration

into our country. And if there is anything that comes out of this...

APPLAUSE And I can give you this absolute

promise, whatever my future may remain upbeat, I will not stand any

longer and make the positive case for migration and immigration in our

country. It has delivered for decades to the benefit of our

nation, both economically and socially...

APPLAUSE Are you saying the positive case

wasn't made? Yes, it has been a real feeling of our us as politicians.

Why did David Cameron not make the positive case? I am speaking about,

if I dare say, myself. I put my hands up. I have always been liberal

on immigration. I have always said these things. They have not always

found a voice and people have not always listen, and now as a society

let's debate immigration. Let's let that positive boys sing out about

the positive benefits of people who come here to work -- the positive

voice thing out. I will be positive about immigration. Immigration is

exceptionally positive when it is controlled, and that is what we have

now. We are going to take back control of our own borders and

therefore the people who will make those decisions will be the people

we elect to... That is the right way to do it. Listen, whilst we are in

the European Union we don't have to sign up to the freedom of movement

of people. We can be like Australia and take that control back. The man

in the green shirt... Can I just see how upset I am with the Remain side

of the argument because you only consider the EU migrants in this

country. Us non-EU migrants, we have been discriminated against hugely by

the UK immigration system because there are high numbers coming in

from the EU and all of the opportunities, all the chances, all

the jobs, they are going to EU nationals and non-EU nationals have

no rights whatsoever in this country.

APPLAUSE I understand that argument, sir, and

I heard that argument, but I put it to you. If you really think that the

right of the Conservative Party and Ukip want to have your Eastern

European migrants so they can have more commonwealth migrants, you have

not been paying attention. APPLAUSE

Of the question -- on the question of lies and misrepresentation, which

somebody raised, you know, some of the promises made by the Leave

people unravelled within hours. Dominick is no telling us we want to

take our time. Lots of people thought we would come out of Europe

today. We never said that. We never said it. Controlling immigration.

You just want to rerun the debate. For words, not backwards. It is

important to show how the promises people voted on have unravelled in

hours. You spoke on immigration. Hours after the vote, we will not

bring down numbers of migrants. Ask those -- as for those millions of

pounds the Leave people said would be spent on the NHS...

APPLAUSE No Nigel Farage is saying, we never

meant to say that -- no Nigel Farage. Their story is unravelling!

You would like the referendum fought again? No, I said right at the

beginning, David, it is an important vote and I respected. I had nothing

to do with Vote Leave. I would have not have joined them and campaign

for them. It was Vote Leave who have that slogan on the side of the boss,

not Nigel Farage, so stop scaremongering. I am sick of it. If

you want to win an election, stop the sanctimony, because we are sick

and tired of it. There was an interview on this morning with Nigel

Farage and the presenter challenged him over the money to be spent on

the NHS. That was Vote Leave, it was not Nigel Farage. He has nothing to

do with Vote Leave. You ever had the ?350 million, we are all agreed it

was a light? -- but whoever had it. We are all agreed it was alive. I

will take a question from Margaret then give time for general questions

at the end -- it was a lie. Has Armageddon arrived for our political

parties instead? After it was promised to come by Remain.

APPLAUSE When they went on air I think, Diane

Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn had lost ten members of the Shadow Cabinet. You

will not know this but while we have been on air, he has also lost the

Shadow Attorney General. So from Labour's point of view, the party

does seem to be unravelling under the pressure of this referendum, and

people seem very unhappy with what Jeremy Corbyn did. I will come to

the Tory party in a moment. On the question of Armageddon I actually

think the project -- Project Fear stuff was exaggerated and in the end

did not convince people and that is why the Leave people won. On the

question of Jeremy Corbyn, it is a funny thing. I think the clear

lessons of this vote after the EU, it is that people all over the

country do not want politics as usual. If there is any party leader

who stands for not politics as usual, it is Jeremy Corbyn. The

truth is... APPLAUSE

The truth is the Labour MPs who have been running around in circles today

have been planning this for months. And I believe, because they have

never accepted the result of last summer's leadership contest. It is

because they did not accept he played a proper part in the

referendum campaign... No, they have been speaking about this for months.

It is a relevant holy run the campaign? They have used this but

they have been speaking about it for months, -- Italy's irrelevant how he

ran the campaign. We should be talking about people, going after

people, reconstructing relationships with their base. We should not be

running around playing Westminster games. Alex Salmond. I think the

lady had a great question. Nicola Sturgeon looks fine at the present

moment, but... Well, she does. Let's not use the SNP as an answer to

every question. And it you do not like to talk about it, but never

mind. The Prime Minister has gone, 11 members of the Shadow Cabinet

have gone, Jeremy Corbyn might be going. David, I am just glad you're

still here. You are the fixture... LAUGHTER

APPLAUSE I hate to tell you that I am not

part of the Constitution. Anna Soubry? The leaving of Kyle

Turner is very significant. He is no playwright or troublemaker. He is

very far into the left of the Labour Party and it is significant that he

has gone -- he is no Blairite. Obviously Diane does not want to

speak about the meltdown in the Labour Party. We can't speak about

my party, yes, but we need a good strong opposition. OK, let's speak

about your party. Do you want Boris as your leader? I am not friends

with Boris at the moment. It is not a question of friendship. There is a

good question that having led this he should jolly well get on and make

the best of what he has brought us two, but I want a leader who can be

a proper world player, who is a grown-up reader with the credibility

and also has had seen your experience in national Government --

drawn up leader. Anyone in mind? I actually have an open mind.

Genuinely, I see what I think. I think there are some very good

people coming forward, and they have... It is the qualities... I am

a Jeremy Corbyn fan and I think probably the Blairites are making

their move there because the Chilcott report is coming out, what

is it, next month? APPLAUSE

And they can't come out after that. But to be serious, the problem is

for the Labour Party, and I have no happiness seeing this, it is much

deeper, this referendum has revealed how out of touch so many in the

Labour Party are with their base, and that is extremely worrying I

think because the people who may be beneficiaries of that are the far

right, and that worries me enormously.

APPLAUSE By my watch we have just over five

minutes to go. We have heard a lot of arguments. There is one

particular thing I would like to raise because 3 million people who

voted to remain have now asked for another vote and the petition. I

would like to hear from people who voted Remain and feel somehow things

went wrong for for them and their discontent with the answer. You,

sir? Yes, I think the British public not only bought it for Brexit but it

was also a no-confidence vote in this Government, so we should have a

General Election. APPLAUSE

Did you vote Remain? From you. If we did have a General Election and the

winning side explicitly campaign not to invoke Article 50, is a second

referendum a realistic possibility? That is what I am clinging to.

General Election then a second referendum after negotiations? Does

anybody think that is possible? There is a petition up at the

moment, isn't there? 3 million people. And 30,000 signed up from

the Vatican City which it has 8 million people living there! Think

it is only 400,000 people who have signed the petition and are eligible

to vote in this country. Back to the question on the fragmentation of

politics. And literally feel the Westminster jigsaw has been thrown

on the floor and they will really have to put this back together. I do

not think in the long term the Labour Party can survive in its

current form. If Corbyn gets the signatories he will go back on that

ballot paper and he will be re-elected and in the end people

like Chuka Umunna and Tristram Hunt will have to make a decision and I

can see a gang of four moments down the line again. Speaking about new

political parties, has Ukip done its bit and can be now retire?

APPLAUSE Absolutely not! Giles, there is a

fragmentation, as he said, particularly between the Labour

Party and working class seat and that is where Ukip had the biggest

vote for Brexit... M's open house. You with the spectacles on? -- open

house. With the request for another referendum, and let's entertain this

just for a moment, what happens if people still vote Leave in the

second one, do we just keep having referendums after referendum?

APPLAUSE I voted Remain and it has left me

feeling quite upset about leaving the EU but also with a deep mistrust

of politicians on both sides of the campaign. I heard a lot of rhetoric

about, we are going to build hope and bring people together, but what

are you actually going to do? What is it that worries you? It worries

me that there are a lot of people in society who are no marginalised --

no marginalised and another part of this country, which left a lot of

people on the Remain said no feeling they are not connected to society so

I am wondering what to do about that. What do you think? I think

there needs to be a real engagement with politics. I am quite strongly

Labour and think Corbyn is a really good leader and think a lot of

people spend time trying to undermine him because he does

something different to the usual politicians. You at the back. Do you

think it was irresponsible of David Cameron not to negotiate a scenario

for a Brexit when he went to negotiate the exit times? You mean

he should have done that to things at the same time -- exit terms. I

think it is something that has gone wrong. The problem has been you

cannot say to people, after decades of telling them the EU is not good,

in four months, to say to people, actually, not only is it rather

good, but positively go out and vote for it. That has been a problem in

politics. Do you want to... Were you listening? I was focusing on the

question about the political class being broken. I do not see... Or

trust in the political class. If that is true, and I hope it is not

and I hope it is salvageable, but I do not see how the answer can be to

ignore the outcome of a referendum were we got the biggest democratic

mandate for change in recent history, certainly in my lifetime. I

think the answer has to be to respect that verdict but make sure

and try to find some stronger unity of purpose as we go forward in the

manner we conduct that exit negotiation. OK, very quickly. With

4% of the world scientists and 16% of the world's most highly cited

scientific papers, those rely on all that EU funding. How do you expect

of a leading role in the world economy if you cannot fund research?

APPLAUSE The funding of research. He is

right, but we lost. We have to move on. It is all to play for. I am

sorry. We have come to the end of our hour those of my thanks to our

panel and for all of you came here to Birmingham this evening. Good

evening. -- from Question Time, good