EU Special Question Time


EU Special

A special live edition discussing the implications of the UK's vote to leave the European Union. The Leave and Remain camps are evenly represented in the audience and on the panel.


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Transcript


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What happens now? It has revealed a deeply divided country and has the

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main political parties falling apart. What is the way forward?

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We are in Birmingham this evening, a city that was almost evenly divided

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between Leave and Remain. The audience reflects the split. A panel

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haven't seen any questions in advance. We have the Conservative

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justice minister, Dominic Raab. The deputy leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall

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and the parish priest and Guardian columnist, Giles Fraser. On the side

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of Remain, the conservative Business Minister, Anna Soubry. The SNP Alex

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Salmond. And Labour's Shadow International Development Secretary,

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Diane Abbott. APPLAUSE

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If you want to use Facebook or Twitter to comment, you can do that

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on our hash tag: Let's get the first question. It comes from Chris

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Abbott, please. Project fear has failed, the peasants have revolted.

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After decades of ignoring the working class, how does it feel to

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be punched in the knows? APPLAUSE

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Anna Soubry, how does it feel? That is the sort of language we have got

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to get away from and move forward. We have got to come together. I can

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assure you my roots, somebody who was bought up in North

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Nottinghamshire, and I like to think I keep in touch, not only with my

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constituents, but where I came from. I think this debate and this

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referendum has not been our country's greatest hour. I have to

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say, I have witnessed, witnessed language on the street, which is

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where I have been in the East Midlands, which is where I am from.

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I have heard words used and language used, immigrants, get all these

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immigrants out. I have not witnessed that since I was a student in

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Birmingham back in the mid-70s. I am worried about the state of our

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nation. I think what has happened is the tolerance we are rightly proud

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to have as part and parcel of our fundamental values, to a large part

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has been put aside by too many people. We need to rebuild

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communities and we need to move on. And we need to put, if I may say,

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hope over hatred and stop preying on prejudice and fuelling fears. We are

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where we are. Now we have got to come together and get on with it.

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Decades of ignoring the working-class, there was a clear

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division in the results of this referendum. The more prosperous and

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London, Scotland, you know, Scotland. On the other hand, there

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were people who seemed to feel, according to everything they said,

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disaffected, left out in the countryside and the poorest cities.

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A lot of people who voted leader-macro came from all classes

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in our society and background. Many people who voted Leave, voted for

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reasons, although I don't agree with them, were completely honourable.

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People also voted Leave for things I am deeply troubled by, that was the

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immigration thing and it was wrong. What has been exposed by this

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referendum is deep divisions within the country and Labour strongholds

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like Walsall, my hometown, have voted to leave. All over the

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country, they have chosen the same idea to leave. In the past, that

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would never have happened. There is massive disconnect from the parties

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and their electorate to not be able to galvanise the voter. Giles

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Fraser? Did you say Walsall? I was a vicar in Blakelaw Heath for a while.

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Many people there felt left behind by globalisation, felt they haven't

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been listened to. I can understand the anger that comes from it. Some

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of the anger has been misdirected, some of it has been exploited by the

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far right in absolutely disgraceful ways. It has to be said. But that

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anger is... Who do you mean by the far right, Ukip? I think the Ukip

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poster was absolutely disgraceful. It soiled an important argument we

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were having. The gentleman is right, there is a legitimate anger in

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places where people have been ignored for a very long time. They

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have been ignored I London. Now they are being sneered at for being

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angry, as if they were... You know bastion mark I just want to say one

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thing, there are not 17.4 million racists in this country. And that is

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important to say. APPLAUSE

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Do you want to respond to what he said about Ukip? Ukip isn't a far

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right party, we have campaigned against the European Union since our

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inception. I think this was the people versus the establishment. It

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was ordinary working-class people against the Brussels elite, against

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the big banks, against the business, against project fear. I want to know

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whether Chancellor is at the moment? He seems to have disappeared

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altogether. Giles spoke about the sneering now because people were

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angry. I can give you an example. A Guardian columnist yesterday wrote

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we have Brexit because of northern, crappy towns, places like Preston in

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my constituency, places like Wigan, black burn and Burnley. I have had

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enough of this London centric, metropolitan snobbery... Alex

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Salmond? I can reveal whether Chancellor is, he has been

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kidnapped. But nobody is going to pay the ransom and that is why you

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haven't seen him! In reality, there were two project fears. There was

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the project fear on the economy led by the Prime Minister and the

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Chancellor. But also the other project fear, the one on

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immigration, which was at the heart of the Outer campaign. The

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consequence given that the Outer campaign fund, the consequences for

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society of that project fear of very deep. Politicians should be doing,

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not worrying about the dislocation in their own parties, but worrying

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about the dislocation in my causing communities. I am not signed up

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member of the British establishment. I am not. I am proud one political

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leader who wasn't turned over by the electorate on Thursday was Nicola

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Sturgeon, who got a resounding vote to remain in Scotland and Europe

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last Thursday. I do recognise the political establishment to have been

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rejected by their electorate, better start facing and reconnecting and

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how you do that and offer hope. There is only one antidote to fear,

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whether it is fear of the economy or fear of immigration and that is to

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offer people hope and the way forward. Let's hear from our

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audience. You at the back in the striped shirt. I think it is really

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important to acknowledge the fact, acknowledge the role of the media.

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The tabloid press on a daily basis, much of the nuanced debate has been

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lost about sovereignty, it is just immigration, immigration,

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immigration. Speaking from the point of view of a teacher, our younger

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students, if the only thing they are hearing is this one note debate of

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immigration, immigration, immigration, that is all they will

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here and we'll ignore the rest. This woman here. While we are talking

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about in sensitivities and inappropriate behaviour from

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different parties throughout this complaint, I would like to ask Paul

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Nuttall how he feels about Aaron Banks running polls after the death

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of Jo Cox and how appropriate and sensitive he feels it is and was? I

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have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I am not up with

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those polls at all, I am sorry I cannot comment. I just don't know.

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The woman here in pink. It is too easy to pull all the results on

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Friday down to immigration. It is patronising and far too easy. We are

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in Birmingham which is extremely significant in my city. It is the

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most culturally diverse and ethnically diverse city in this

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country. To say the result is fear of immigration is wrong. There are

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so many more complexities as to why people voted Leave, democracy,

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sovereignty, and economics. It is disingenuous. What you make of Chris

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Abbott's view the peasants have revolted, people are going

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establishment and that is how it broke? To an extent, I believe that

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is true. I grew up on a council estate, my parents still live on a

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council estate. People believe they are not being listened to. And where

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we have negative impact on certain policies around immigration, those

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are the people who feel it does inform some of their opinion. But it

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does not inform all of it. Were you surprised by the outcome? For

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Birmingham, I was surprised, yes. Diane Abbott. There is no question

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this boat has come out of the EU was a roar of anger against Westminster

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elite. It is the most important political vote of my lifetime. I

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don't believe we should rerun it. We have to respect the results of the

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vote. There are also progressive reasons to want to come out of the

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EU. Tony Benn, all his life campaign to come out of the EU. But, members

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parts of the Leave campaign, notably Ukip, dot down in the gutter around

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immigration on this campaign. It is right to say it is not all about

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immigration, but I am telling you, there are people who are frightened

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and wondering what is their country becoming. It is so important we come

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together and reassure people that this vote isn't an endorsement of

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the politics of Ukip. This vote isn't about trying to make

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immigrants and people of colour feel frightened and feel they don't

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belong here. I respect the vote, but let's not hide what an unpleasant,

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ugly aspect there was. APPLAUSE

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Paul? The young lady in the audience is right, to pin this on immigration

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is right. Places with large South Asian populations go out and vote to

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leave. Let me finish. We do have to accept immigration did play a part,

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because as we know, and the Bank of England have said, and trade unions

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and Lord Rose of the remaining campaign, uncontrolled, mass

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immigration drives down wages. We're not going to refight the campaign.

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We are talking about the consequences. Diane Abbott, you said

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Tony Benn was in favour of pulling out? Always. Are you veering towards

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supporting the idea of leaving? Is Jeremy Corbyn not veering to audit?

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No, some aspects of this campaign, notably the role Ukip late, I find

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totally repellent. But we respect the vote, we come together and bring

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people together. APPLAUSE

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Dominic Raab, there have been a number of attacks on the Leave

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campaign, what do you make of those assertions? Most of them were at

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Ukip. On my side and in voter leave, we wanted to talk about immigration

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but also the huge opportunities that this country to go from strength to

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strength, be a global player, take control of our economy and

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democracy. We can rerun the debate. It was four months and people were

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tired of it at the end. We have also had a remarkable, direct democratic

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mandate to leave. 17 million people, 72% turnout, I have never seen

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anything or anyone get a democratic mandate like that. Three things have

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to happen now. First of all, what ever are different views, we

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Democrats only have two respect the verdict and make it work. We need to

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calm down and we need stability. On the economic side I was pleased at

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what Sajid Javid said, what Mark Carney said, this economy is strong

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enough to weather any short-term volatility and the Bank of England

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will do anything it can to make sure it is the case. But this case needs

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to shift from the divisive part of this campaign, to work out how we

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mitigate the risks, take this golden opportunity and carried the 48% of

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people who are nervous at this moment in time.

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How do you carry the 48% who said they wanted to remain? First of all,

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it's about the tone. Second, we need to mitigate the risks. What do you

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mean by that? People are concerned about financial instability. If you

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look at the FTSE 100, is a very strong statement by Mark Carney, we

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are well placed to weather that. We also need to take the positives and

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the opportunities. We've talked about the negative stuff on both

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sides and I don't want to get into that because we're raking over

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Coles, but if you look at the international reaction from the EU,

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Angela Merkel, and the BDI, the German equivalent of the

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Confederation of British industry,... Mitigate the risks,

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David, but let's take this golden opportunity to make this country

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even greater. Anna Soubry. He's your colleague in government, is it

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possible to do that? Yes, because at the end of the day you've got to put

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the country before your party and before the divisions. I completely

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agree with everything that Diane Abbott has said about these deep

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divisions that have occurred in relation to immigrants and people

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who are not white. The other thing that concerns me is about the views

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of a lot of younger voters, who feel that for their generation, their

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opportunities in many ways have been stolen, if I may say, this is their

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view and I don't necessarily subscribe to it but it has a lot of

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merit, they feel another generation, older people, have taken away there

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opportunities for the future. A lot of young people do feel that.

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APPLAUSE They do and 75% of under

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24-year-olds voted to Remain. The question is, they didn't turn out in

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sufficient numbers. It is a good point you make. But we are where we

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are. Only 40% of 18-year-olds to 24-year-olds went out and voted. But

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we are where we are and we have to repair and move forward and we have

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to take into account there are a lot of young people who are feeling very

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sore at the moment. I take massive issue with the fact that this has

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been portrayed as a working class revolt. Usually working-class

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revolts aren't headed by people like Michael Gove and Boris Johnson.

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Also, 48% of people might feel a bit nervous, but there are a hell of a

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lot more people on the streets, people of colour and immigrants who

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are not just a bit nervous but terrified because of abuse have

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received. APPLAUSE

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A lot of hands up but I want to take a question from Andrew Burroughs

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Emma it comes to the point that Dominic

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Raab was making. "Do The panel believe Europe will punish the UK

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for leaving to quash any similar rebellion in Europe?" Who would like

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to start on this? One reason is that the UK does not have a negotiating

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platform. The way to minimise the economic damage from Brexit was to

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say right, we will go for the European economic area, we will go

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for some sort of associate membership like Switzerland or

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Norway. The difficulty with that is that the bulk of the league campaign

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was against free movement for Labour, because immigration actually

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was at the heart of their campaign. Therefore they couldn't argue that,

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therefore there is not a serious proposition to negotiate with. You

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mean the Leave campaign don't have a view about coalition? I compared it

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to the Robert Redford movie when he wins a Senate campaign in California

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and turns and says what do we do now? That is a bit like the Leave

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campaign. I would just point out that is probably why Michael Gove

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and Boris Johnson looked like they were going to burst into tears at

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their victory press conference! The other side is, there will be a

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tendency in many European countries that they don't want to give an easy

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ride to a UK exit in case it encourages other countries to do the

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same thing. So this is going to be a real rough, tough negotiation

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because one side doesn't know what it wants and the other side wants to

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make a point. It's not going to be an easy two years. Dominic Raab.

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Picked up on the point, if you would, that two of the leaders of

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the leave campaign were looking startled or surprised or about to

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burst into tears when they discovered they had won! We were all

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a bit sleep deprived, won't we? It's a long campaign. Do you know what

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you're going to do? Yes, how long are you going to give me to give you

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the extent -- explanation. A minute! Let me answer the question, show me

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that courtesy and I will show you the same. The more we say about what

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we're going to do the more they were setting us up to criticise us

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because we were a campaign and not a government. The lady asked... The EU

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statement by the president said very clearly that we were going to have a

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close partnership. Angela Merkel specifically rejected the idea of a

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punitive approach. There is a good reason, because there are German

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elections coming up in 2017 and there is no German Chancellor in

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their right mind who would approach that looking to put out of jobs

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manufacturing exporters. We know that the European firms sell ?68

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million more in goods and services every year than we sell them. We

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were told in the lead up to this campaign that we have been hung up

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to dry for years, creating interminable uncertainty. Now the EU

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say they would like to crack on. That's good for us, it strengthens

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our leverage, we can take our time and trigger article 50 every time.

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They want to crack on and you want to take it easy but that plays into

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your hands? We can trigger the formal negotiations whenever we

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want, which is our right. The fact that they would like us to do it

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sooner rather than later strengthens minds and our negotiating position.

:22:25.:22:32.

Let's hear from you, sir. I'm very alarmed and concerned that the

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Remain campaign is still fighting a war that is over, it's done, get

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over it, it's gone. What I am concerned about is that they are

:22:42.:22:44.

still saying we've got to be involved with the new generation,

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the new politics. I have a fundamental issue with the ones

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telling us there was going to be a nuclear war and also a European war

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negotiating contracts. Well, who... All of them, the Remain team. Anna

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Soubry, are the Remain team going to be involved in negotiations? We hope

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so because we now have to make sure we get the best deal for our

:23:12.:23:16.

country. I was with somebody who has a small business who told me he's

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already lost, this is the real world, he has lost two' contacts,

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they were cancelled on Friday as a result. We are in immediate economic

:23:25.:23:32.

shock. I can tell you where the Chancellor is. The Chancellor is

:23:33.:23:36.

sitting and working out and making the phone calls and putting some

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stability... Hang on, hang on. This is true and this is what has been

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happening. I've been involved, as has Sergei Javier Colomo have been

:23:54.:23:58.

putting the stability in in some important work in relation to the

:23:59.:24:01.

steel industry which I'm sure you all aware of, which is extremely

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sensitive and we are now very concerned about our economic

:24:05.:24:08.

situation. That is the work we are doing and it has to be done

:24:09.:24:15.

privately. You gave an example of a company that lost to contracts. What

:24:16.:24:20.

has he lost? He is in construction and he was due to do two projects in

:24:21.:24:25.

North Nottinghamshire, both of which have been cancelled because of the

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fears and instability in the economy. That's why we have to

:24:29.:24:35.

restore that stability. I think the Chancellor is crafting his

:24:36.:24:37.

resignation speech right now, that is my opinion... Not once in this

:24:38.:24:45.

campaign did I endorse the fear tactics on the economy and neither

:24:46.:24:48.

did Nicola Sturgeon, who made a point of saying that is not... We

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had a bucket full of that sort of stuff two years ago in Scotland and

:24:53.:24:56.

I would never endorse that sort of campaign. There is an old saying in

:24:57.:25:00.

American politics, if you break something, you own it. It is the

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Brexit campaign who won the referendum across the UK and now

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they have to tell us what the future is. You cannot expect the

:25:10.:25:16.

politicians and David Cameron was right to resign and the Chancellor

:25:17.:25:20.

will be right to resign, who acted against it, to act as if they can do

:25:21.:25:24.

something. Who do you want to speak for the leave campaign? Boris

:25:25.:25:31.

Johnson? It is the party of Michael Gove and Boris Johnson and we will

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see if they are as good at the helm as they work...

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APPLAUSE I want to see a Brexit government

:25:35.:25:46.

because after all the Brexit side won. I want to see a exit the man

:25:47.:25:51.

who will go to Brussels and negotiate hard. Well, you've only

:25:52.:25:57.

got one Ukip MP, you're not going to have much chance!

:25:58.:25:58.

APPLAUSE LAUGHTER

:25:59.:26:03.

What is a Brexit government, Paul? It is one that is going to be headed

:26:04.:26:08.

by Michael Gove or Boris Johnson. And nobody in the government who was

:26:09.:26:15.

in favour, like Anna Soubry? Anna can be part of the government. Thank

:26:16.:26:22.

you... In reality... You asked what would happen next but of course, as

:26:23.:26:26.

an EPI will be out of a job, which is probably a good thing.

:26:27.:26:29.

CHEERING APPLAUSE

:26:30.:26:36.

Hang on, why when do you think you will be out of a job, three-year is

:26:37.:26:41.

down the line, five, six? There will be no more European elections and

:26:42.:26:45.

that will be a good thing. At the moment when article 50 is triggered,

:26:46.:26:49.

it will be two years and then we will be out. We can have a bespoke

:26:50.:26:53.

British Steel. We have a huge trading deficit with the European

:26:54.:26:57.

Union, which means, in many ways, they need us more than we need them.

:26:58.:27:02.

There are elections in France and Germany next year. You, sir, in the

:27:03.:27:15.

pink shirt. I would just ask, Paul Nuttall, you have said you have got

:27:16.:27:18.

this plan and you are doing everything. You say you would put up

:27:19.:27:26.

a hard order between the north and south of Ireland if necessary. You

:27:27.:27:28.

have no consideration for peace in Europe. You sniggered... The first

:27:29.:27:36.

war we could see could be on our owned and, in Ireland. -- our own

:27:37.:27:45.

land. That is Project Fear again. De Villiers, the Secretary of State,

:27:46.:27:48.

has said it's not going to happen. There will not be a border between

:27:49.:27:51.

the north and south of Ireland. What do you make of that argument? The

:27:52.:27:56.

idea that we need a Brexit government is absolute nonsense.

:27:57.:28:03.

APPLAUSE I didn't vote for Michael Gove, I

:28:04.:28:07.

didn't vote for Boris Johnson when I voted for aggro leave.

:28:08.:28:08.

It wasn't like a general election when you're voting for people like

:28:09.:28:17.

that. We need a government of national unity.

:28:18.:28:22.

APPLAUSE The most important thing... The way

:28:23.:28:26.

you've set this up to night I understand, but this has all gone

:28:27.:28:30.

now, this division. This debate is all what has happened before. Now

:28:31.:28:36.

it's going forward and we'd all together have two work-out. As a

:28:37.:28:40.

vicar, I have to say one thing. I know this is not a religious

:28:41.:28:45.

programme... We a reading and it was "Love your neighbour as yourself".

:28:46.:28:53.

Never before -- we need to love each other and attend to each other. We

:28:54.:28:59.

need to stop these divisions and go forward and that means particular

:29:00.:29:02.

stopping the racism too. APPLAUSE

:29:03.:29:08.

Let's just deal with the issue of divisions. Michael Foakes has a

:29:09.:29:15.

question which I would like to take briefly. Fire away. How can the

:29:16.:29:23.

electorate trust the Remain politicians to uphold the democratic

:29:24.:29:27.

decision of the British public to leave the EU? So, you have the

:29:28.:29:35.

referendum and the have -- we have the referendum result. But just

:29:36.:29:40.

under 500 650 MPs in the House of Commons are Remainers. I think the

:29:41.:29:44.

question on a lot of people's minds, and David Lambie of Labour raised

:29:45.:29:48.

this, was whether the House of Commons will actually go along with

:29:49.:29:52.

this if the majority of them are against what do you think? I think

:29:53.:29:55.

the suggestion that the House of Commons should vote down the

:29:56.:29:59.

reverend and is quite wrong. We have to respect the will of the people.

:30:00.:30:06.

I will say this, I thought Paul not all wanting a Brexit government is

:30:07.:30:16.

chilling. Presumably this is a government where Ukip as the whip

:30:17.:30:21.

hand. Nobody voted for this last Thursday. What about to do with the

:30:22.:30:27.

EU issue? We certainly cannot have a Brexit negotiation dominated by Ukip

:30:28.:30:34.

and the Tory right. We want to have all voices, we want the voices of

:30:35.:30:43.

working people to get a deal in the exit, which is not just the

:30:44.:30:48.

stockbrokers and Ukip, but for ordinary people. We want a

:30:49.:30:51.

negotiation team which will reflect all voices. Jeremy Corbyn... Jeremy

:30:52.:30:54.

Corbyn wouldn't go on a platform with a Tory, so how do you get a

:30:55.:31:00.

joint operation between Labour and Tory? We know what happens when the

:31:01.:31:07.

Labour Party went on a platform with Tories in Scotland. But that is a

:31:08.:31:12.

different question. What Jeremy did not want to do was to be seen as

:31:13.:31:19.

part of a Westminster elite telling people what to do. That is a

:31:20.:31:25.

different question from saying we want working people and the voices

:31:26.:31:30.

of working people to be part of this exit negotiation. So you are

:31:31.:31:34.

suggesting some sort of co-operation between all parties in the House of

:31:35.:31:38.

Commons, labour and Tory on the negotiations with the EU? I am

:31:39.:31:41.

suggesting the Labour Party will draw up an agenda for Brexiter and

:31:42.:31:46.

we want the agenda to be reflected in the negotiations. We represent

:31:47.:31:52.

millions of people who don't trust Paul Nuttall with their best

:31:53.:31:54.

interests. APPLAUSE

:31:55.:31:56.

What will be SNP do because they have heard but the people of the UK

:31:57.:32:04.

have said and they won't be party to this. In this United Kingdom, there

:32:05.:32:09.

are four Nations. Two of these nations, Northern Ireland and

:32:10.:32:13.

Scotland didn't vote the 6% for Brexiter. In the case of Scotland it

:32:14.:32:18.

was 24% majority for Remain. My thing and English and a Welsh MP has

:32:19.:32:25.

no choice but to follow the mandate from the people in the referendum,

:32:26.:32:30.

just as I think no Scottish Northern Ireland champion should do anything

:32:31.:32:33.

but followed the mandate from the electorate. Nicola Sturgeon is ahead

:32:34.:32:40.

because she is the only politician over the last 48 hours who has been

:32:41.:32:44.

talking coherent sense as every other political party disintegrates

:32:45.:32:53.

around them. The first and most important thing is to have

:32:54.:32:57.

stability. In relation to the Bank of England and the financial

:32:58.:33:00.

uncertainty, the tools will be in place. We will have a new Prime

:33:01.:33:04.

Minister in about three months. I am convinced it will need to be a broad

:33:05.:33:09.

reaching team, not just some divisive racketeer operation. --

:33:10.:33:14.

Brexiteer. I would reach out to Anna and other colleagues, and say let's

:33:15.:33:19.

hammer a stronger sense of unity going forward. Let's take the

:33:20.:33:24.

opportunity here. And beyond the government dealing with the

:33:25.:33:27.

negotiation, and what we are talking about is to make sure we secure

:33:28.:33:32.

ongoing trade, we have other Vendy forms of cooperation and take back

:33:33.:33:36.

democratic control so people in the House of Commons are making the

:33:37.:33:40.

decisions, rather than politicians and bureaucrats who are not

:33:41.:33:42.

accountable to the people watching this show or in the audience. But it

:33:43.:33:49.

would regard to reach out to broader members of civic society, whether it

:33:50.:33:54.

is the unions, business groups, all parts of the United Kingdom, to make

:33:55.:34:00.

sure we get it right. But we need to make sure we move away from the

:34:01.:34:07.

divisiveness of the referendum campaign. If we do that, we will see

:34:08.:34:12.

the number of people that were concerned about this drop, but we

:34:13.:34:17.

have to be committed to it. Who do you want as Thai minister? It is

:34:18.:34:30.

very tempting, but I am not going to get into any of the runners and

:34:31.:34:40.

riders. I will not be running. But I will not get into any of that now.

:34:41.:34:48.

Would it have to be a Brexiter? What is important is the next leader of

:34:49.:34:55.

the Tory party has a good democratic, social mobility message

:34:56.:34:58.

to an aspirational society. Anyone here. Should we have had the

:34:59.:35:03.

referendum when we didn't have all of the correct information? Indeed,

:35:04.:35:06.

let me take with that, a question from Claudia and we will put the two

:35:07.:35:13.

together. It has become apparent and number of leave voters based their

:35:14.:35:18.

choice on lies. With this in mind, is the outcome of the referendum

:35:19.:35:25.

valid? Who would like to go on this? The outcome is a valid. I come from

:35:26.:35:30.

a country where a government we didn't elect a proposed referendum

:35:31.:35:37.

we didn't want. Now proposes to take our country out of Europe against

:35:38.:35:42.

the will of the Scottish people. You are part of the United Kingdom at

:35:43.:35:48.

this point in time. Every time people dismiss Scotland's

:35:49.:35:51.

recognition as a nation, we are a country and not a county. People of

:35:52.:35:58.

Scotland listen to that and say, why isn't our national rights recognised

:35:59.:36:02.

within the United Kingdom? Nicola Sturgeon propose to David Cameron

:36:03.:36:07.

the referendum should be conducted in a way that had to have a majority

:36:08.:36:15.

in all four countries of the United Kingdom. He dismissed that as silly.

:36:16.:36:20.

He probably thinks it is a lot more sensible now. But the rapper Rendon

:36:21.:36:24.

is the referendum. All political campaigns had misinformation at

:36:25.:36:27.

their heart. What was the misinformation on your side of the

:36:28.:36:31.

argument. Project via on the economy was a rerun of the Scottish

:36:32.:36:37.

referendum in 2014. It is Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne who didn't

:36:38.:36:41.

understand, they had others to do their dirty work. The Daily Mail,

:36:42.:36:46.

the Daily Telegraph, the Sun newspaper. This time they were

:36:47.:36:51.

trying to get the sewage out but didn't have the sewer to translate

:36:52.:36:57.

it to the electorate so they ran it with no transmission mechanism. But

:36:58.:37:00.

I deplore that, I'd appreciate it. But nothing like the project via

:37:01.:37:04.

that divides communities on the basis on the colour of a person's

:37:05.:37:10.

skin. I know people who voted out are not racist, but the campaigns,

:37:11.:37:16.

not just the unofficial one of Ukip, but the other campaign which

:37:17.:37:19.

featured immigration at their heart because they believed it was their

:37:20.:37:24.

winning card and it turned out to be their misinformation. Giles Fraser.

:37:25.:37:28.

Misinformation because they have not promised to deliver? We don't need

:37:29.:37:32.

to go to Nigel Farage's poster. People from the European Union,

:37:33.:37:37.

people who were denied a vote in this referendum, hard-working people

:37:38.:37:40.

paying their taxes but still denied a vote in this country on their own

:37:41.:37:45.

future. Sorry, I thought you were making another point. Giles Fraser.

:37:46.:37:55.

I am glad you said you accept the consequences and the results of this

:37:56.:37:59.

referendum. But there was a rapper Rendon not very long ago for

:38:00.:38:03.

Scotland to stay in the European, stay in the UK. And I seem to

:38:04.:38:09.

remember you lost that one. More recently there was an alleged chin

:38:10.:38:16.

-- election in Scotland last month where Nicola Sturgeon put in her

:38:17.:38:22.

manifesto if there was a material change in circumstances the Scottish

:38:23.:38:26.

people have the right to another referendum. Hang on... Hanged on. It

:38:27.:38:36.

is a disgrace 5 million in Scotland and the SNP are trying to hold to

:38:37.:38:44.

ransom, 55 million people. Very simple question, do you believe the

:38:45.:38:49.

outcome of this referendum is now Scotland leave the union? Yes.

:38:50.:38:58.

Absolutely certain? I have talked about the scare tactics from the

:38:59.:39:03.

remain macro side and how it rebounded on the economy. But the

:39:04.:39:07.

litany of scare tactics was when John Major said during the campaign.

:39:08.:39:14.

We cannot have our country taken out of Europe against the expressed will

:39:15.:39:18.

of the Scottish people. Incidentally, if you manage to get a

:39:19.:39:26.

majority of MPs... Dominic Raab. Wait, wait. Would the government

:39:27.:39:31.

grant another referendum because it is a Westminster decision to have a

:39:32.:39:39.

referendum in Scotland. You are the justice minister, if Scotland asks,

:39:40.:39:44.

will they get one? I don't think there is a case for it now. Would

:39:45.:39:50.

you stop it. Please answer my question. You said you didn't think

:39:51.:39:54.

there was a case for it. Would you prevent a new Scottish referendum if

:39:55.:39:58.

they wanted to leave because of Brexiter. Alex is asking for an

:39:59.:40:04.

immediate referendum. Because of the deterioration of the Scottish budget

:40:05.:40:08.

deficit, I don't think they would want it now. We should consider this

:40:09.:40:13.

when we have our exit deal with ongoing trade relationships,

:40:14.:40:16.

friendly cooperation. Then there will be a choice. Scotland would

:40:17.:40:21.

either stay in a strong economy in the United Kingdom with a strong

:40:22.:40:27.

economy giving more democratic powers to Scotland. Enough, let's

:40:28.:40:37.

leave Scotland now. Enough. The woman up there in the black and

:40:38.:40:42.

white dress. Everybody agrees here that unity is what is needed now for

:40:43.:40:48.

this country to move forward. Whatever the decision was and the

:40:49.:40:52.

outcome and bringing it all together, all the infighting,

:40:53.:40:55.

particularly from Scotland, you are part of the UK at this point in time

:40:56.:41:01.

and you voted to remain with us. And the turmoil and fighting Nicola

:41:02.:41:04.

Sturgeon is creating, trying to split it, it is not the right time

:41:05.:41:11.

to discuss Scotland's splitting when we are fighting the EU to get the

:41:12.:41:16.

rights of the British people deserve. I wanted to ask Dominic

:41:17.:41:23.

Raab, talking about golden opportunities. I am a law student at

:41:24.:41:30.

the University of Birmingham. Like me, the majority of young people

:41:31.:41:36.

voted to remain. What are the golden opportunities to students now we

:41:37.:41:42.

have left the European Union? Can I add to that, Ayew alarmed at the

:41:43.:41:46.

high proportion of young people who are really upset by the way the vote

:41:47.:41:52.

went, because the proportion of them, the larger proportion of them

:41:53.:41:58.

voted to remain. I am concerned to make sure the 48%, including the

:41:59.:42:02.

younger generation are carried with us. The EU has been disastrous for

:42:03.:42:07.

the younger generation, given the levels of youth unemployment in the

:42:08.:42:10.

EU and in particular the Eurozone, rising to 50%. We need to do more to

:42:11.:42:17.

spell out the positive vision to carry your generation, but also the

:42:18.:42:21.

whole country with us. What opportunities do you think will come

:42:22.:42:24.

from Brexit? Better opportunities for jobs, higher wages. I would love

:42:25.:42:30.

to have answered your question, David moved on. I know Anna alluded

:42:31.:42:38.

to it earlier, but what would she say to this 19-year-old who voted

:42:39.:42:46.

Leave. A lot of my generation was incredibly naive in this referendum.

:42:47.:42:51.

Many of my friends talked about a thought they could get change in the

:42:52.:42:58.

EU. All the evidence, such as David Cameron's re-negotiation and the

:42:59.:43:03.

structure of the EU showed we were not going to get that.

:43:04.:43:05.

APPLAUSE Diane Abbott and then I will come to

:43:06.:43:12.

you. We are where we are, we have had the rapper Rendon, people have

:43:13.:43:18.

spoken and they voted for us to leave the EU. Now we must come

:43:19.:43:24.

together and we must negotiate on behalf of everybody the best deal.

:43:25.:43:29.

The other thing that needs to be said is this. The decades, not me

:43:30.:43:33.

because I always believed we were better off in the EU, but

:43:34.:43:37.

politicians from both parties had said the EU was the root of most of

:43:38.:43:42.

our troubles. And also, let's be honest, nobody had really made the

:43:43.:43:47.

case, positive case for immigration into our country. If there is

:43:48.:43:52.

anything that comes out of this, and I can give you this promise,

:43:53.:43:57.

whatever my future may not be, I will not stand back any longer and

:43:58.:44:02.

make the positive case for migration and immigration in our country. It

:44:03.:44:08.

has delivered the decades, for the benefit of our nation, both

:44:09.:44:11.

economically and socially. Nobody has said that. You said the positive

:44:12.:44:19.

case was not made? It has been a failing of all of us as policy

:44:20.:44:27.

sessions. I am talking about me, if I dare say. I put my hands up, I

:44:28.:44:34.

have always been liberal on immigration. I have always said

:44:35.:44:37.

these things, they have not often found a voice and people haven't

:44:38.:44:41.

this on. Now as a society, let's debate immigration and let the

:44:42.:44:45.

positive voice sing out about the positive benefits of people who come

:44:46.:44:53.

here to work. I will be positive about immigration. Immigration is

:44:54.:44:59.

exceptionally positive when it is controlled. That is what we have got

:45:00.:45:04.

now, we will get control of our own borders and the people who make the

:45:05.:45:09.

decisions will be the people we elect at Westminster. It is the

:45:10.:45:16.

right way to do it. Whilst we are in the European Union signed up to

:45:17.:45:22.

freedom of movement, we can take back control and be like Australia.

:45:23.:45:27.

The man in the green shirt. Can I say how upset I am with the remain

:45:28.:45:33.

macro side of the argument. The only considered EU migrants in this

:45:34.:45:36.

country, is a non-EU migrants, we have been discriminated hugely by

:45:37.:45:39.

the UK immigration system because the high numbers coming in from the

:45:40.:45:45.

EU and all the opportunities, the chances, the jobs are going to EU

:45:46.:45:49.

nationals and is non-EU nationals have had no rights whatsoever.

:45:50.:45:53.

Diane Abbott. I understand that argument but I put it to you that if

:45:54.:46:04.

you really think the right of the Conservative Party and Ukip want to

:46:05.:46:08.

have fewer Eastern European migrants so they can have more Commonwealth

:46:09.:46:12.

migrants, you haven't been paying attention.

:46:13.:46:17.

APPLAUSE On the question of lies and

:46:18.:46:23.

misrepresentation which somebody raised, some of the promises made by

:46:24.:46:28.

the Leave people on travel within hours, so Dominic is now telling us

:46:29.:46:33.

we want to take our time. Loads of people voted thinking we would come

:46:34.:46:39.

out of Europe today. Immigration, controlling immigration... You guys

:46:40.:46:45.

just want to rerun the debate. We need to move forward is not

:46:46.:46:49.

backwards. It's important to show how the promises that people voted

:46:50.:46:52.

on have unravelled within hours. They haven't! Hours after the poll,

:46:53.:46:59.

Daniel Hannan was saying we're not going to bring down the numbers of

:47:00.:47:03.

migrants. As for the millions of pounds that the Leave people said

:47:04.:47:09.

would be spent on the NHS, Nigel Farage said we never actually said

:47:10.:47:15.

that... Their story is unravelling! So you would like a referendum

:47:16.:47:22.

fought again. It's an important vote and I respect the vote. Nigel

:47:23.:47:33.

Farage... It was vote leave that had that slogan on the side of the bar

:47:34.:47:42.

-- side of the bus, so please stop scaremongering. I'm sick of it!

:47:43.:47:48.

We're sick and tired of it, OK! There was an interview on This

:47:49.:47:53.

Morning with Nigel Farage and the presenter challenged him on the ?350

:47:54.:48:00.

million. That was vote leave. Nigel Farage was nothing to do with vote

:48:01.:48:02.

leave. The ?350 million, we all knew it was

:48:03.:48:11.

a lie. I will take a question from Margaret Sutton and then take

:48:12.:48:19.

general question that the end. Remain threatened that a vote to

:48:20.:48:24.

leave would bring Armageddon. As Armageddon arrived for our political

:48:25.:48:31.

parties instead? -- has it? APPLAUSE

:48:32.:48:35.

When we went on air, I think Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn had lost ten

:48:36.:48:42.

members of the Shadow Cabinet. While we've been on air, you won't know

:48:43.:48:46.

this, he has lost another one, the shadow Attorney General, Kyle

:48:47.:48:52.

Turner. From Labour's point of view, the party seems to be unravelling

:48:53.:48:57.

under the pressure of this referendum. People seem very unhappy

:48:58.:49:03.

with what Jeremy Corbyn did. On the Armageddon, I think the Project Fear

:49:04.:49:07.

stuff was exaggerated and in the end didn't convince people and that is

:49:08.:49:11.

why Leave won. On the question of Jeremy Corbyn, it's a funny thing.

:49:12.:49:15.

One of the clear lessons of this vote to come out of the EU is that

:49:16.:49:19.

people all over the country don't want politics as usual. And if there

:49:20.:49:27.

is any party leader who stands for not politics as usual, it is Jeremy

:49:28.:49:29.

Corbyn. APPLAUSE

:49:30.:49:35.

The truth is that the Labour MPs who have been running round in circles

:49:36.:49:38.

today have been planning this for months. Because they have never

:49:39.:49:44.

accepted the result of last summer's leadership election. It's because

:49:45.:49:49.

they didn't accent that he played a proper part in the Leave campaign.

:49:50.:49:52.

No, they've been talking about this for months. It's irrelevant how he

:49:53.:49:58.

ran the campaign? They've used this... They've been talking about

:49:59.:50:01.

this for months. Following on from this vote we should be talking about

:50:02.:50:06.

the people. We should be reconstructing our relationships in

:50:07.:50:09.

our base, we shouldn't be running around playing Westminster games.

:50:10.:50:15.

All right, Alex Salmond. I think the lady had a great question. Nicola

:50:16.:50:21.

Sturgeon looks in fine fettle at the present moment. Well, she does!

:50:22.:50:26.

Let's not have that the SNP is the answer to every question. The Prime

:50:27.:50:31.

Minister has gone, 11 members of the Shadow Cabinet have gone, Jeremy

:50:32.:50:36.

Corbyn might be going... David, I'm just glad you're still here!

:50:37.:50:38.

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

:50:39.:50:46.

You are a fixture. I hate to tell you, I'm not part of the

:50:47.:50:51.

constitution! Be going of Karl Turner is very significant. He is no

:50:52.:50:56.

Blairite or troublemaker, he is quite far into the left of the

:50:57.:51:00.

Labour Party and its deeply significant that Carl has gone, I

:51:01.:51:04.

have a lot of time for him. Obviously Diane doesn't want to talk

:51:05.:51:07.

about the meltdown in the Labour Party. I will more than happily talk

:51:08.:51:13.

about my party. But we need a good, strong opposition. Let's talk about

:51:14.:51:18.

a good strong government. Do you want Boris as Prime Minister,

:51:19.:51:25.

leading your party? I'm not friends with Boris at the moment... There's

:51:26.:51:29.

a good argument that having led this, he should jolly well get on

:51:30.:51:34.

and make the best of what he has brought us to. But I want a leader

:51:35.:51:38.

who can be a proper world player, who is a grown up leader with the

:51:39.:51:44.

credibility and has also had senior experience in national government.

:51:45.:51:49.

Anyone in mind? Actually I have an open mind. Genuinely, I say what I

:51:50.:51:55.

think, you know me. There are some very good people coming forward.

:51:56.:52:00.

It's the qualities we need first that will determine the person.

:52:01.:52:05.

Giles Fraser. I'm a Jeremy Corbyn fan. I think the Blairites are

:52:06.:52:10.

making their move now because the Chilcot report is coming out, what

:52:11.:52:13.

is it, next month... And we know what is going to happen the day

:52:14.:52:19.

after that! To be serious, the problem is, for the Labour Party, it

:52:20.:52:26.

is much deeper. What this referendum has revealed is how out of touch so

:52:27.:52:29.

many of the Labour Party are with their base. It's extremely worrying,

:52:30.:52:38.

I think, because the people who might be beneficiaries of that are

:52:39.:52:41.

the far right and that worries me enormously. By my watch we have got

:52:42.:52:47.

just over five minutes to go. We've heard a lot of arguments. There's

:52:48.:52:51.

one particular thing I want to raise, because 3 million people who

:52:52.:52:56.

voted to remain have now asked for another vote, in a petition. I want

:52:57.:53:01.

to hear from people who voted remain and feel that somehow things went

:53:02.:53:04.

wrong for them or they are discontented with the answer. You

:53:05.:53:08.

are, sir? I think the British public not only voted for Brexit but it was

:53:09.:53:13.

a no-confidence vote in this government, show we should have a

:53:14.:53:18.

general election. Did you vote Remain? Yes. If we did have a

:53:19.:53:25.

general election and the winning side explicitly campaign not to

:53:26.:53:31.

invoke Article 50, is it a realistic possibility that there could be a

:53:32.:53:35.

second referendum? You would have a general election and then a second

:53:36.:53:40.

referendum after negotiations? Yes, provided... There is a petition up

:53:41.:53:47.

at the moment... 3 million. And there is 300,000 of them who sign up

:53:48.:53:54.

from Vatican City, which only has 800 people living there! Looking at

:53:55.:54:02.

the details, it's only about 400,000 people who signed that petition who

:54:03.:54:07.

are eligible to vote in this country. I literally feel that the

:54:08.:54:11.

Westminster jigsaw has been thrown on the floor and they're going to

:54:12.:54:14.

have to put this back together. I don't think in the long-term the

:54:15.:54:17.

Labour Party can survive in its current form. If Jeremy Corbyn gets

:54:18.:54:22.

35 signatories, he will go back on that ballot paper will -- ballot

:54:23.:54:26.

paper and he will be re-elected. People like Chuka Umunna and

:54:27.:54:34.

Tristram Hunt... Have Ukip now done its bit and can now retire? No,

:54:35.:54:44.

absolutely not. There is a fragmentation between the Labour

:54:45.:54:46.

Party, the parliamentary party and its base particularly in working

:54:47.:54:53.

class seats. That is where Ukip's future lies. They had the biggest

:54:54.:55:00.

vote for Brexit. Open house. You, please. With the request for another

:55:01.:55:06.

referendum, what happens if people still vote Leave in a second

:55:07.:55:13.

referendum? Do we just continue having referendum after referendum

:55:14.:55:15.

until people get it right? APPLAUSE

:55:16.:55:22.

You, yes. So, I voted remain. It has left me feeling quite upset about

:55:23.:55:26.

leaving the EU, but also with a deep mistrust of politicians from both

:55:27.:55:31.

sides of the campaign. I've heard a lot of rhetoric about, we're going

:55:32.:55:34.

to build hope and bring people together, but what are you actually

:55:35.:55:38.

going to do? What is it that worries you? It worries me that there are a

:55:39.:55:44.

lot of parts of society that now feel marginalised and don't feel

:55:45.:55:46.

part of this country, which I think led a lot of people to vote to leave

:55:47.:55:54.

and now a lot of other people feel marginalised and not part of

:55:55.:55:58.

society. I think there needs to be a real engagement in politics. I'm

:55:59.:56:02.

quite strongly Labour and I think Jeremy Corbyn is a really good

:56:03.:56:06.

leader. People spend a lot of time trying to undermine him because he

:56:07.:56:09.

does something different to usual politicians.

:56:10.:56:11.

APPLAUSE You, sir, at the back. Do you think

:56:12.:56:16.

it was irresponsible of Cameron not to negotiate a scenario for a Brexit

:56:17.:56:25.

when he went to negotiate the terms for remaining. He should have done

:56:26.:56:29.

the two things at the same time, so we had two scenarios. I think if

:56:30.:56:33.

there is something that has gone wrong... The problem is that you

:56:34.:56:37.

can't say to people after decades of telling them the EU is not good, in

:56:38.:56:42.

four months, to say to people, actually, not only is it rather good

:56:43.:56:46.

but positively go out and vote for it! That has been a problem we have

:56:47.:56:54.

had in politics. Do you agree? On what aspect? You weren't listening!

:56:55.:56:59.

I was focused on the question about the political class being broken. I

:57:00.:57:03.

don't see how trust in the political class has been broken, I don't see

:57:04.:57:10.

how the answer to that would be to ignore the outcome of a referendum

:57:11.:57:14.

where we have the biggest direct mandate for change certainly in my

:57:15.:57:20.

lifetime. The answer has to be to respect that verdict but make sure

:57:21.:57:23.

and try and find some stronger unity of purpose to go forward in the

:57:24.:57:26.

manner in which we conduct that exit negotiation. One more, from you.

:57:27.:57:35.

With 4% of the world's scientists and 16% of the world's highly

:57:36.:57:42.

respected scientific papers, those rely on ?8.8 billion of EU funding.

:57:43.:57:48.

How do you expect to have a leading role in a world economy if you can't

:57:49.:57:53.

find that research? The funding of research. He is right, but we lost.

:57:54.:58:00.

We have to move on. We have to move on. It's all to play for. I'm sorry,

:58:01.:58:04.

we've come to the end of our hour. We have had a special edition of

:58:05.:58:19.

Question Time. We have the regular edition on Thursday in Preston,

:58:20.:58:24.

after the news. My thanks to our panel and to all of you who came

:58:25.:58:27.

here to Birmingham this evening. From Question Time, good evening.

:58:28.:59:01.

Rolls-Royce Corniche - one of the best of the very best.

:59:02.:59:04.

It may only be half as powerful, a tenth as reliable.

:59:05.:59:09.

A special live edition of Question Time discussing the implications of the UK's vote to leave the European Union. The audience is comprised of a balance of Leave and Remain voters, while the panel is also divided in two. For Remain, Alex Salmond, Diane Abbott and Anna Soubry, and for Leave, Dominic Raab, Paul Nuttall and Giles Fraser.


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