08/09/2016 Question Time


08/09/2016

David Dimbleby presents a special edition of Question Time from Oldham featuring the two candidates for leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn MP and Owen Smith MP.


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Transcript


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Tonight, the leader of the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn,

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and the challenger for the leadership, Owen Smith,

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Our audience here is made up of Labour voters,

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evenly divided between supporters of the two candidates.

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There are also some voters from other parties ?

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As always on Question Time, neither contender knows any

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You can use Facebook and Twitter to comment on what you hear.

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Our hashtag is #bbcqt, or text 83981,

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and push the red button to see what others are saying.

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The question then is, who should lead the Labour Party?

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Please welcome Jeremy Corbyn and Owen Smith.

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Welcome to you both. Thank you very much. Our first question from

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Stephen Williams, please. Mr Corbyn has no support from his MPs, Mr

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Smith has no support from his party. Should they not stand aside and let

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a unity candidate unite the party? Step aside, both of you, and unite

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the party. There are no absolutes in this respect. Yes, there is huge

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support within the party a direction of this party in opposing austerity

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and campaigning for equality across Britain. Yes, a number of MPs do

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support me, a large number do not. I understand that. But when this

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election is over, if I am elected leader of the party, I hope the MPs

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will come together, we will once again have a Shadow Cabinet that is

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balanced and extended to all wings of the party, and we will get

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together to take on the Tories and what they are doing to education, to

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health, to housing, and creating greater inequality in this country.

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That is what I am offering. APPLAUSE

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Just before I come to Owen Smith, what makes you think 80% of the

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parliamentary party who abandoned you will suddenly come flooding

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back? I have been talking to lots of them. MPs talk a great deal. I think

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after the election and after conference is over, you will see the

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wish of MPs to reflect the wishes of party members all over the country,

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that there is a coming together in order to oppose this Tory

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government. APPLAUSE

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There are still three weeks to go in this contest and it's an incredibly

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important choice we face before us in the Labour Party. I'm incredibly

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proud that I got the support of 170 of our 220 MPs in Westminster, and

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that shows that I can command respect and support in the

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Parliamentary Labour Party, where we have to take the fight to the Tories

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and build the case for a future Labour government. I am also pleased

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that in the one vote we have had in the contest so far, in the GMB, one

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of the great trade unions in this country, I won. 40,000 people voted,

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26,000 voted for me, 17,004 Jeremy. I am incredibly confident that I can

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win this contest. I say to everybody in the Labour movement right now, it

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is in your hands, the choices with you as to whether we want to be with

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Jeremy and in opposition potentially for a generation, or start leading

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the way back to Labour being in power. That is where we need to be

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and that is what I intend to deliver.

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APPLAUSE Do you want to come back on that?

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What is your view? The squabbles have made the party look

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unelectable. Both of you look unelectable. You should stand aside

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and let somebody else, Harriet Harman, somebody like that,

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somebody, anybody, leads the party to victory. Otherwise, ten more

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years of Conservative government that nobody wants, especially not

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you two, I'm sure. So stand aside. Thanks for your vote of confidence,

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I really appreciate it. I just say this to you. Over the past year we

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have recruited 300,000 members to the Labour Party. That surely has to

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be something worth noticing. APPLAUSE

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80% of the constituency parties, the local parties that nominated,

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nominated me for the leadership. Now, you not think that we have the

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wherewithal or capabilities to do things, but I am sure you would

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understand that those people that have nominated us both think we can

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do the job, both want the party to succeed, and that very large body of

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members want to go doorknocking, campaigning and all that kind of

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thing. I think what you have had is a few weeks of incredibly negative

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press about the party because of the leadership election. Indeed, we have

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had a year of negative press about the party. I think after conference

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you will see something happening which will be that unity, to take on

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the Tories and what they are doing in this country. I really do believe

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that. APPLAUSE

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I admire Jeremy's optimism but I don't think that is what we will

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see. The truth is it is not just 300,000 new members we have seen. We

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have seen Labour going backwards, back at 26-27% in the polls. Right

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now, the chances are we would be out of power for a generation. If there

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were an election tomorrow, Labour would lose up to 60 seats. The

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entire reason I am standing in this campaign is in order to get Labour

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back to where it needs to be, taking on the Tories, really defending our

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record, standing up for what we believe in and presenting a credible

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alternative to the Tories. Instead of which, I think Jeremy is more

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satisfied with leading the Labour Party in opposition. I'm never going

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to be satisfied with that. I want to lead us back to government.

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APPLAUSE How will you lead better than he

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does? How will you unite the party? The first thing to do is to be a

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credible opposition. Today, for example, we have seen a 20% rise

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since last year in zero-hours contract, 1 million extra people

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announced today on waiting lists in the NHS. And the Tories doing

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something not even Margaret Thatcher dared to do, bringing back to tear

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education. Jeremy has not commented on any of these things. The Tories

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are running amok in this country right now and we in the Labour

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Party, all of us here, everybody right across this party, not just

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the Parliamentary Labour Party, we are all guilty of letting down not

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our party, the people we seek to serve, the people who need a Labour

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government to get those waiting lists down, to invest in the NHS,

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make sure we don't have grammar schools back. But we can't do any of

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that in opposition. We have to win to do it. It is not a dirty word, it

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is what we are about. I will go to you first. Up until the

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mass resignations that took place within the Labour Party, within the

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PLP, were we not ahead by a couple of percent?

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APPLAUSE Was that not the point at which we

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started falling backwards? No. Let me correct you, sir. You are wrong.

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In 89 polls, under Jeremy's leadership, we were behind in 85 of

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them. We were at level pegging in four. We are at a lower ebb in the

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polls than since 1982 when I was 12. We are a disaster. We were behind in

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85 polls in a row under Jeremy, before the PLP resigned. And we are

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further behind right now. You, sir, on the left. I would like to say to

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you, Jeremy, ignore some of the negative comments that are coming,

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because I have been a Labour Party supporter for a very long time. I

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walked up and down the street knocking on doors, and people love

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you. People want you to be the Prime Minister.

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APPLAUSE The reason they want you to be Prime

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Minister is because you care about them, they know you will fight for

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justice, fight for poverty, education, employment. He can make

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the speech! Well done. All right, we have heard from a staunch supporter

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of Jeremy Corbyn. I would like to hear from a staunch supporter of

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Owen Smith's campaign. Yes, you, sir. It is fair to say the Labour

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Party membership has gone up, but why did we get annihilated in

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Scotland behind the Tories bastion Mark what is your view about the

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Smith campaign? I think the Labour Party is in a sad situation because

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I can't same heart is beating on either side, to be honest. I think

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it is sad that we have booing when we oppose Jeremy, but I think Owen's

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campaign is more balanced. It is one thing to have principles and

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beliefs, but you have to sell it to the British people in our electoral

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system, and Scotland showed that you did not do that.

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APPLAUSE One of the reasons I am supporting

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Owen is that I believe the Parliamentary Labour Party is the

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most important thing to focus on. It is what makes us electable. But I

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have been on the committee of our young CLP group for a while and I

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have been so disappointed. The discourse has not been constructive,

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it has been divisive and abusive at times. I have this associated myself

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from it completely because it upsets me. You can hear it tonight with

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people booing. It is both sides but I have heard it mostly from Jeremy's

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side, and I think that is bad. It just upsets me when one party, and

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at the end of this I don't want people to split and leave. I have

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had members of 30 years' time they want to leave if one or the other

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wins. It is not right. We are one party and I think what is happening

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in general is disgraceful. APPLAUSE

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Jeremy, why have you not considered your core vote? You may have the

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support of the membership but not of the core vote, which is what counts

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and wins a general election. Jeremy Corbyn. First, on the point is taken

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from the back, there should be no abuse, there should be no online

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abuse, no Twitter abuse, there should not be abuse in political

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debate. I never make personal attacks on anybody, that is not the

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way I conduct myself, and I want other people to do the same. Yes,

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the party has to come together. Yes, after this election is over at the

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result will be announced and from that point on we have to be a strong

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campaigning party. We were more or less level pegging with the Tories

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until there was this series of resignations from the Shadow

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Cabinet. And I hope that Owen or understand that after this election

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there has to be a coming together, and that all numbers of the

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Parliamentary Labour Party will be prepared to come together to achieve

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that. Your point about the core vote, the core vote is people who

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have consistently voted Labour for very many years. It is also a very

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large number of people who are intrinsically inclined towards

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Labour but have not bothered to vote in the past. Only 47% of young

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people voted in the last general election. There is an energising of

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politics over the past year. Many of those that have joined the party,

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many of those that are active in local groups are very well connected

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with colleges, universities, young people at work. I tell you this,

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after this leadership is over there will be that energising in politics,

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which will challenge the Tories. What are the Tories offering? They

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are offering greater inequality, they are offering continuation of

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low wages, and in many cases zero-hours contracts. They are

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offering selectivity in education rather than universality, which is

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something I believe in. They are not offering anything that will solve

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the housing crisis people face across this country. A Labour

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opposition offering investment in a growing economy, a Labour opposition

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offering to invest to drive down begin qualities in Britain and

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invest in a growing economy with sustainable jobs, I think that is

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something that is very attractive and will bring an awful lot of

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people over to Labour. APPLAUSE

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One more question about the future after this thing is over, this

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election is decided. Maureen Kelly has a question. If Jeremy wins the

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contest, will it inevitably lead to a split in the party? As many have

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suggested, Owen Smith. What do you think? I hope and pray that it does

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not. One of the reasons I am running is to stop the split. The question

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was, will it inevitably lead to it? How will it be avoided. Jeremy, or

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I, whoever wins, needs to working credibly hard to heal the rifts. You

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will work with him if he wins? I have already said I will happily

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vote Labour. You will join the Shadow Cabinet if he wins? I have

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said I could not serve Jeremy with integrity because I don't agree can

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lead us to victory. So the division is already there. Would you urge the

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80% to come behind Jeremy, or should they stay to one side and let them

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get on with it because he is going to lose? It is for others to decide.

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But you must have a view. My view is that I would not serve in Jeremy's

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Shadow Cabinet because I could not do that with integrity. But that is

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not to split the party because I will always be Labour. I am never

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going to leave the Labour Party, I will be Labour until the day I die.

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I have worried because this is at the heart of it. It is about

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reality. Jeremy says we were ahead in the polls. We were not. He says

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we are doing OK in Scotland and we are not, having gone from second to

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third, behind the Tories. And he says he can win by getting voters to

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come back and vote Labour when all of the numbers tell us everybody who

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has ever knocked on a door in this country knows that we will not win

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by getting nonvoters. The way we win this by getting people who voted

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Tory to vote Labour at the next election and Jeremy is not going to

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persuade them. APPLAUSE

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A brief point from you at the front set. I think Alyn Smith has answered

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the question. He's open to a party splitting. Why would a Labour Party

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member not serve under Jeremy Corbyn? If he was a true labour

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member, he would serve under any Labour leader. As Jeremy has done.

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You are in the wrong party. That's the sort of abuse we have been

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subjected to in this campaign. I'm a Labour man and have been Labour all

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my life. I will always be Labour. How come you won't serve under him?

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The crucial moment when I decided I would stand was when John McDonnell

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said to me that he was prepared to see the party split in order to

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further his project. That's the moment I realised we needed to stand

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up and be counted and make sure we didn't split the party. Jeremy

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Corbyn, can you comment on what John McDonnell said? We had a discussion

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in my office in which Owen was present and Owen generously offered

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me unopposed election to a nonexistent job that wasn't his gift

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to give if I resigned from the party. That's a different

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conversation, Jeremy. It was really generous of you, Owen. You and I

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managed to work together quite well on issues surrounding the DWP.

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Indeed, we had a major victory on that. All of us had that major

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victory, which was very good. 3 million families didn't lose ?1000

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this year because of that victory we managed to impose in the House of

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Lords and our opposition in the House of Commons. That was good,

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surely. I don't fully understand what the problem is. You obviously

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have enormous talents so why can't we work together? I've said it

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several times, Jeremy. And I will say it again to you. If I felt you

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were going to lead Labour back to power then I would work with you in

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the Shadow Cabinet. But I feel you are satisfied to lead us in

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opposition. We need a leader who is determined to lead Labour back into

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government. I don't think you can do that, and I don't think you think

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you can do it. I think that's a desperate shame for this country

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because we need a Labour government to stop zero hours contracts, to

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invest in the NHS and ensure we have decent housing. The only way we will

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achieve all those things we want is if we are in government. Why do you

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say that Mr Corbyn doesn't think he can do it? Why is he bothering to

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stand for leadership again? I saw him be asked five times on Channel 4

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if you really wanted to be Prime Minister and he didn't answer it.

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I've seen him in the Shadow Cabinet opposite me in the last several

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months offering scant leadership, not discussing the DWP issues. The

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truth is, Jeremy and I worked together for some extent, but we had

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one meeting in 11 months. I asked to meet on several occasions and he

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wasn't available. A couple more points on this before moving onto

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particular policies. Good evening, Owen. Could you explain to me a

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specific policy, a Labour policy, that you would ASBO is too which is

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completely and utterly different to Jeremy? -- you would espouse two. I

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would want to remain in the European Union. Jeremy has wanted to leave

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for 45 years. I don't believe we should trigger article 50, Jeremy

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says we should trigger it immediately. I think we should be

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members of the single market, even if we leave, and Jeremy disagrees, a

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fundamental difference. That takes us to a question we have on this

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exact subject from Robert Barnes. Should there be a second referendum

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on EU membership or the terms of our Brexit negotiations? That's the

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proposal Owen Smith put. I think we have to negotiate with the European

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Union on the terms of exit. We have to recognise, regrettable as they

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are, the results of the referendum. We have to make sure we have access

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to European markets for manufactured goods. We have to make sure we have

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protection of workers and consumer rights, paternity and maternity

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leave, and other environmental protection is gained through

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membership of the European Union. And we have to have that positive

:20:40.:20:44.

relationship with Europe meaning the ability to sell our goods. Do you

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want to remain in the single market if possible? A single market if

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possible, and I think it probably is, that means we would have to be

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prepared to negotiate trade relations with other countries, but

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crucially 70% of our exports go to Europe already and it makes a lot of

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sense to get on with negotiating now. I also hope continued

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membership of the European investment bank, I think that's

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important. In other trade treaties, such as with the United States, I'm

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very sceptical of the transatlantic trade investment partnership and the

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agenda that goes with that. APPLAUSE I would want us to develop trade

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relations that empower democratic government, don't undermine it and

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give power to global corporations as I believe TTIP would do. What is

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your belief on controlling immigration, where some Labour

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voters were uncertain on what you thought. Non-European immigration is

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already subject to a great deal of control. EU free movement of people

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is an issue that comes directly with market access. The points I was

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making throughout the referendum campaign was that we should sign the

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amendments for the workers directive to prevent the undercutting of wages

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by groups of workers brought in from different countries to work in

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Britain, and that we should try to protect them and their conditions.

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But communities that have been greatly affected by an influx of

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people coming into work should be funded properly through a migrant

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impact fund. In fact, Gordon Brown's government introduced that but the

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Tories abolished it, so we should have support for those communities.

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The country voted out. Owen Smith says it's not the end of the story.

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I say we have to know what Brexit means. Theresa May says Brexit means

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a Brexit but this week shows the Tories don't have a clue. David

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Davis says we are leaving the single market, as Jeremy has agreed.

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Theresa May says it doesn't. Earlier it meant ?350 million per week for

:22:59.:23:03.

the NHS and that was a lie. They said there would be points-based

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immigration. They said we would have trade deals done and dusted with

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Australia and America in a matter of months and those countries say it

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could be years before we have those deals in place. My simple message to

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the Labour movement, we have to stand up to the Tories, oppose them

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properly, hold them to account, negotiate hard alongside them and

:23:26.:23:27.

determine what Brexit will really mean. If it means worse living

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standards for the British people, less money for the NHS, less

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workers' rights, less environmental protection, we should either have a

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general election with Labour arguing we should go back in, or potentially

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a second referendum and test the actual deal, not what we were

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promised, which was clearly a lie, but what the Tories are actually

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going to deliver. I feel they will use these excuses. Nigel Lawson said

:23:55.:23:59.

this week that they would finish Thatcher's revolution. That's what

:24:00.:24:02.

they have in mind and it would be an ugly, hard Brexit for Britain and

:24:03.:24:07.

places like Oldham would suffer. Unless I misunderstood, you said you

:24:08.:24:13.

wanted Labour to go into the next election saying the party policy

:24:14.:24:16.

would be to ignore the Brexit vote and go back into the EU Busted

:24:17.:24:22.

exactly. We need to find out what it is. -- into the EU? Exactly. We

:24:23.:24:31.

don't know where we are going. You do know where you're going, you want

:24:32.:24:36.

to go back in! I hope we are. I think we should be strong about that

:24:37.:24:39.

because I've always believed that the best things about the European

:24:40.:24:45.

Union, the ability to safeguard workers' rights... Did you vote for

:24:46.:24:48.

the referendum to happen? We all voted for it. And you don't accept

:24:49.:24:55.

the result? My view is we don't know what we were voting for. We were

:24:56.:25:01.

lied to about 350 million, Theresa May says Brexit means Brexit. We

:25:02.:25:07.

shouldn't give them a blank cheque on this. Jeremy is giving them a

:25:08.:25:11.

free ride. I say to hold them to account and find out what is really

:25:12.:25:15.

on offer. If it's worse for the people of Oldham then of course

:25:16.:25:18.

Labour should put in a manifesto that we would improve the

:25:19.:25:22.

livelihoods of the people of Oldham. And if that means voting to go back

:25:23.:25:31.

into the EU? Yes we should. The referendum has delivered a decision.

:25:32.:25:35.

It might not be the decision we wanted, and I think it's up to

:25:36.:25:39.

Parliament to work with that. I want to protect the conditions we have

:25:40.:25:42.

gained in Europe. I want market access within Europe, and one of the

:25:43.:25:46.

points I made during the campaign was that the EU needed to reform, it

:25:47.:25:52.

was proposing privatisation across the continent, and was bringing in

:25:53.:26:00.

unpleasant ideas about how national governments should run their

:26:01.:26:03.

economies. I think we need to negotiate a good trading arrangement

:26:04.:26:08.

with Europe, protect those conditions and give us market

:26:09.:26:14.

access. Let's go back to Robert Barnes who asked the question.

:26:15.:26:17.

What's your view of what you've heard? I totally disagree with Owen

:26:18.:26:24.

Smith. More than 17 million people voted to leave the European Union,

:26:25.:26:27.

and if you were leader the Labour Party would want to take is back in.

:26:28.:26:31.

That isn't what 17 million people voted for. We may not know the terms

:26:32.:26:38.

of the negotiation, but what would you do if the remain side had won

:26:39.:26:44.

and the leave side wanted a second referendum. It's hypocritical to say

:26:45.:26:48.

you want a second referendum. The country wanted out. Abide by that.

:26:49.:26:55.

The lady up there. To Jeremy, it's fine saying you were there debating

:26:56.:27:01.

Brexit during the referendum, but we didn't hear that on the doorstep

:27:02.:27:10.

from you at all. APPLAUSE What do you mean? That the

:27:11.:27:14.

referendum could have been won if he had spoken out more? I think so, to

:27:15.:27:19.

get those extra votes, definitely. We put the case to remain and

:27:20.:27:26.

reform. We didn't win the referendum, obviously. We have to

:27:27.:27:30.

work with the results of it. I did campaign for Remain. I campaigned to

:27:31.:27:37.

remain and reform the European Union. 65%, on opinion polls, of all

:27:38.:27:45.

Labour voters, voted to remain. How did 45% of Labour voters think the

:27:46.:27:56.

party backed Brexit? 45? 45% thought the party Labour act Brexit. --

:27:57.:28:11.

backed Brexit. The attempt to impose privatisation on the railway

:28:12.:28:15.

services across Europe... I don't think the European Union is perfect.

:28:16.:28:18.

I don't think anybody thinks the European Union is perfect. What

:28:19.:28:23.

about her argument, it's not the moment to be saying those things,

:28:24.:28:29.

but stay in, loudly and clearly. If we said everything in European Union

:28:30.:28:33.

was perfect I suspect we would have got less votes to remain than the

:28:34.:28:39.

other way round. The man in the blue shirt. I voted Ukip in the last two

:28:40.:28:46.

elections. If the Labour Party is going to get anywhere it's got to

:28:47.:28:50.

get those Ukip votes back to itself. I'm faced with a situation as a

:28:51.:28:55.

voter where we have a gentleman here, should he managed to overcome

:28:56.:28:59.

the democratically elected leader of the Labour Party, he will then

:29:00.:29:07.

attempt to overcome the decisions of the country that we should leave the

:29:08.:29:13.

European Union. Where are we supposed to take our vote? And where

:29:14.:29:20.

is our opposition? We have Theresa May now saying we don't want a

:29:21.:29:23.

points system for immigration. Yes we do, that's what we voted for. She

:29:24.:29:28.

said that's not what people want, but it's what the people do want.

:29:29.:29:32.

Why isn't the opposition screaming this? They are hiding behind wanting

:29:33.:29:36.

to go back into the European Union. That's not what we want and not what

:29:37.:29:41.

we voted for. May I put a point to you, thank you for your question. Do

:29:42.:29:45.

you think we should have an effective trading relationship with

:29:46.:29:50.

Europe? Yes we should. We had that before we joined the European Union.

:29:51.:29:53.

We had arrangements with America as well. It took three days to send

:29:54.:29:58.

troops to die for America, and they say it will take nine years to come

:29:59.:30:05.

up with a trade deal. Where are our politicians? We've had the European

:30:06.:30:08.

Union for so long that you forgotten how to make decisions and represent

:30:09.:30:09.

your country. What made you vote Ukip and leave

:30:10.:30:21.

Labour? I simply wanted out of the European Union. You did say you

:30:22.:30:29.

voted Labour before? Yes, I always vote. I am the older generation.

:30:30.:30:40.

Don't you agree there has to be an effective trading relationship with

:30:41.:30:44.

Europe, and don't you recognise that 2 million British people also live

:30:45.:30:49.

in other parts of Europe? So we have two except that there is a very

:30:50.:30:52.

close, often personal relationship with twin families here and families

:30:53.:30:58.

all across Europe. And a lot of European National is that live in

:30:59.:31:02.

this country work extremely hard and help to run our health and education

:31:03.:31:10.

service and many other services. Do you want complete freedom of

:31:11.:31:15.

movement? I supported freedom of movement but I was and still am

:31:16.:31:20.

concerned about the level of undercutting of wages. Look at

:31:21.:31:23.

Sports Direct in places like that. There has to be much tougher Labour

:31:24.:31:27.

regulations in Britain and there has to be an end to undercutting across

:31:28.:31:31.

Europe where they try and destroy industrywide agreements. I

:31:32.:31:36.

understand, but that is a different point. Is what you are saying that

:31:37.:31:40.

if we had proper minimum wage here, there would be less of a drag of

:31:41.:31:43.

people coming into Britain and you want about, or you want open

:31:44.:31:48.

borders? It will also have to be better wages and conditions in other

:31:49.:31:52.

parts of Europe. Isn't this pie in the sky, compared with the immediate

:31:53.:31:57.

possibility of reducing immigration, which you know was not popular among

:31:58.:32:03.

Labour voters? I ask people to be realistic about what European

:32:04.:32:06.

workers actually do in Britain, the number that help to run our vital

:32:07.:32:10.

services, and the effects on 2 million British people living in

:32:11.:32:16.

other parts of Europe. Owen Smith. I think the question revealed what I

:32:17.:32:19.

was saying, which is that we don't know what we really voted for

:32:20.:32:22.

because we do not have the points waste system you were talking about,

:32:23.:32:27.

we do not have the extra money for the NHS. And I remain concerned that

:32:28.:32:30.

the Tories will use this as an excuse to make us worse off as

:32:31.:32:35.

working people in this country. And I don't think the Labour Party

:32:36.:32:39.

should be Sangwan about that. Even if people voted to leave, I think

:32:40.:32:44.

they voted with an idea of what Britain would look like after we

:32:45.:32:47.

left. At the moment that is not clear, and I am very clear that the

:32:48.:32:50.

Labour Party should be being a much more powerful opposition. How can we

:32:51.:32:55.

go through two Prime Minister's Questions and not mention Brexit,

:32:56.:32:58.

the biggest issue that has faced our country in generations, and the

:32:59.:33:03.

biggest illustration that we, our leader right now, is not holding

:33:04.:33:06.

Theresa May and the Tories to account.

:33:07.:33:09.

APPLAUSE A couple of quick points and then we

:33:10.:33:17.

will move on. The EU referendum seems to have proven that the core

:33:18.:33:20.

voting block of the Labour Party, the working class, the Everyman that

:33:21.:33:25.

Labour is supposed to represent, want something else. They want Ukip,

:33:26.:33:31.

Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, they want to nationalism, not

:33:32.:33:35.

immigration. How is Labour going to change? Are we going to stick to

:33:36.:33:39.

these progressive values, or are we going to reflect the values that

:33:40.:33:44.

people seem to want? I think what they want is investment. Can you

:33:45.:33:50.

answer his definition? Is he right or wrong? I am not sure the answer

:33:51.:33:58.

is nationalism. In many areas there have been traditional Labour voters.

:33:59.:34:02.

You can overlay a map and see where the biggest effect of austerity have

:34:03.:34:06.

been, the biggest appeal of Ukip has been, the biggest Brexit vote has

:34:07.:34:10.

been, the biggest loss of industrial jobs. The answer to dealing with

:34:11.:34:14.

those things is for a Labour government to invest more, which is

:34:15.:34:17.

why I have talked about the need for a new deal, ?200 billion worth of

:34:18.:34:22.

borrowing to invest in those areas. If we invest in them, some of the

:34:23.:34:26.

pressures people feel and the concerns they have about immigration

:34:27.:34:31.

could be dealt with and dissipated. Don't you think you are insulting

:34:32.:34:35.

the intelligence of voters, saying they have been hoodwinked? If you

:34:36.:34:38.

say that, everyone who votes Conservative is hoodwinked, too.

:34:39.:34:46.

They were clearly hoodwinked about 350 million quid for the NHS because

:34:47.:34:50.

that is not coming. Can you restate your point to Jeremy Corbyn? Calling

:34:51.:34:56.

for a second referendum seems quite hypocritical. I am in favour of

:34:57.:35:01.

Remain, in fact I'm leaning towards Owen Smith because he wants to

:35:02.:35:06.

remain in the European Union. But the idea that democracy should be

:35:07.:35:09.

done again because we did not like the result is wrong and doesn't make

:35:10.:35:11.

sense. APPLAUSE

:35:12.:35:18.

It is an advisory referendum. You can ignore it, or you can accept the

:35:19.:35:24.

results. Ignoring it is an option but don't go through the facade of a

:35:25.:35:27.

second referendum. That does not make sense. I am not calling for a

:35:28.:35:34.

second referendum. Surely, the issue is security for people, security of

:35:35.:35:39.

work, security of education, security of a growing economy, which

:35:40.:35:43.

comes about if Labour is able to offer an alternative which is about

:35:44.:35:49.

investment, is about collecting the uncollected taxes, about building

:35:50.:35:52.

that houses that are necessary, rather than subsidising the private

:35:53.:35:55.

rented market. All those kind of issues are surely those that are

:35:56.:35:59.

actually very popular, not just with people in a difficult situation, but

:36:00.:36:04.

with everyone across the country who wants to live in a country of social

:36:05.:36:08.

justice rather than division. Isn't there some support for that idea? I

:36:09.:36:15.

think there is. If I got a fiver for everyone with their hand up I would

:36:16.:36:19.

be a rich man by the end of the programme. I will come to a woman.

:36:20.:36:24.

As you know, 16 and 17-year-olds did not have the right to vote in the

:36:25.:36:28.

referendum. I want to know what you have to say to young people who feel

:36:29.:36:31.

this decision was made for them and how you intend to engage them.

:36:32.:36:34.

APPLAUSE I would say 16 and 17-year-old is

:36:35.:36:40.

absolutely should have had the right to vote in this election. I would

:36:41.:36:44.

extend that right in all referendums and elections to 16 and

:36:45.:36:48.

17-year-olds. We might have seen a different result if we had done

:36:49.:36:52.

that. I do not think it is anti-democratic to say, let's get to

:36:53.:36:55.

the end of the process, when we know what is really on offer from the

:36:56.:36:58.

Tories, as opposed to what they promised, and at that point allow

:36:59.:37:01.

the British people to either rubber-stamp the deal, possibly at a

:37:02.:37:05.

general election, rather than a second referendum, or reject it. I

:37:06.:37:10.

think we will move on to another subject. Can I quickly answer?

:37:11.:37:16.

16-year-olds should have the right to vote. We tried to get it included

:37:17.:37:20.

but were unfortunately not successful. I think we should

:37:21.:37:23.

include in the negotiations the need for universities to maintain the

:37:24.:37:26.

closest possible relationship with European universities. There are

:37:27.:37:30.

already signs that that is in danger of breaking down, and I think all

:37:31.:37:34.

students should have access to the Rasmus project, so we continue that

:37:35.:37:37.

close, good relationship of young people from all over Europe coming

:37:38.:37:41.

together. That is something that is a plus for all of us. Thank you for

:37:42.:37:44.

your question. APPLAUSE

:37:45.:37:53.

Jeremy Corbyn supports scrapping Trident, Owen Smith supports talks

:37:54.:38:00.

with so-called Islamic State. Why should I take either of you

:38:01.:38:06.

seriously on security? Why should he take either of you seriously on

:38:07.:38:12.

security? Who wants to go on this first? I did not say we should have

:38:13.:38:19.

talks with Islamic State. I did not say that. What I said was that the

:38:20.:38:25.

chances were we would never be able to negotiate with Islamic State,

:38:26.:38:29.

that they are a death cult. At some point, for us to resolve this, we

:38:30.:38:32.

will need to get people round the table from Isis, you said.

:38:33.:38:36.

APPLAUSE You have not read the first part in

:38:37.:38:46.

which I said we would not be negotiating with Islamic State. In

:38:47.:38:49.

the second part of my answer, having been interrupted by the presenter, I

:38:50.:38:52.

went on to say that in my experience, as someone who worked on

:38:53.:38:55.

the peace process in Northern Ireland for three years, all peace

:38:56.:38:59.

process is eventually dealt with by all parties coming together, but

:39:00.:39:04.

only, of course, once all parties have pronounced violence and sued

:39:05.:39:06.

for peace and sought to be part of the peace process. Now, the chances

:39:07.:39:11.

are, everybody can see, Isis are never going to fall into that

:39:12.:39:15.

category, are they? They are never going to want to sue for peace. The

:39:16.:39:19.

chances are, therefore, they will need to be defeated militarily

:39:20.:39:24.

before there can be peace. But if, whatever Isis is, if Isis were to

:39:25.:39:28.

renounce violence, then of course you would want to make sure there

:39:29.:39:31.

was a peace process in the Middle East dealing with that, and we

:39:32.:39:34.

should all want that. But it was a slight misrepresentation of what I

:39:35.:39:38.

said. Do you agree with his position? I have all is said I would

:39:39.:39:44.

not negotiate with Isis. I want to see a political solution in Syria,

:39:45.:39:48.

which means involving all the countries in the region and the

:39:49.:39:51.

urgent negotiation of a rapid ceasefire to get aid in, urgent

:39:52.:39:55.

negotiation to support and help refugees, and a copper hence if plan

:39:56.:39:59.

to bring about peace across the whole region.

:40:00.:39:59.

APPLAUSE -- a comprehensive plan.

:40:00.:40:10.

The other part, you want to scrap Trident. Parliament voted

:40:11.:40:17.

effectively on replacement of the Trident nuclear weapons system and

:40:18.:40:22.

the submarines that go with it. To ask the question back, under what

:40:23.:40:25.

circumstances would anyone use a nuclear weapons? We know that if

:40:26.:40:29.

they nuclear weapons was ever used anywhere in the world, the

:40:30.:40:32.

consequences to the environment, the economy and human life are

:40:33.:40:35.

absolutely catastrophic. There are many in the military that do not

:40:36.:40:38.

want Trident replaced and would rather see the resources spent on

:40:39.:40:43.

more conventional issues, and dealing with issues of terrorism and

:40:44.:40:49.

cyber security. 187 countries around the world do not have nuclear

:40:50.:40:53.

weapons. We are signatories of the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and

:40:54.:40:56.

I think we should adhere to our requirements under that, which is to

:40:57.:41:00.

take steps towards disarmament. APPLAUSE

:41:01.:41:11.

You have a crazed dictator in the Far East, currently strengthening

:41:12.:41:20.

his nuclear deterrent. The Chinese thought that he would weaken in a

:41:21.:41:23.

couple of years. Clearly they were wrong. We have the situation in

:41:24.:41:28.

Russia as well. You can't play games with this, Jeremy. Think about it.

:41:29.:41:34.

Nobody is playing games. We are serious about this and I am sure you

:41:35.:41:38.

are, to bring about a peaceful world. Do nuclear weapons help do

:41:39.:41:43.

that? Can we not put as much pressure on -- as possible on China

:41:44.:41:51.

about North Korea to try and bring about removing nuclear weapons from

:41:52.:41:53.

the Korean Peninsula, in the same way that we have managed to bring

:41:54.:41:57.

about nuclear weapons free zones in a number of areas, including Central

:41:58.:42:02.

Asia, Africa and Latin America, and now the discussions about an Arctic

:42:03.:42:06.

nuclear free zone? Surely there has to be a space to go forward on

:42:07.:42:12.

bringing about nuclear disarmament. We have managed to ban chemical

:42:13.:42:16.

weapons by agreement. We have managed to ban cluster bombs by

:42:17.:42:19.

agreement. Surely we can work really hard at that by giving meaning to

:42:20.:42:24.

what the Labour government of the 60s achieved, which was the nuclear

:42:25.:42:27.

Non-Proliferation Treaty. APPLAUSE

:42:28.:42:35.

I am someone who believes in multilateral disarmament. I want to

:42:36.:42:40.

get rid of nuclear weapons across the world. The difference between us

:42:41.:42:45.

is how we do it. Jeremy things we do it by unilaterally getting rid of

:42:46.:42:48.

hours and using moral persuasion to get America and Russia to get rid of

:42:49.:42:51.

theirs thereafter. I think that is naive. I don't think that is likely

:42:52.:42:59.

to happen. Other countries have pursued that course and got rid of

:43:00.:43:02.

their nuclear weapons and Russia and America held onto theirs. I also

:43:03.:43:06.

think we have to be incredible serious about our duty as a Labour

:43:07.:43:09.

government in waiting to keep this country safe. And the world feels a

:43:10.:43:14.

more dangerous place to me than it has done pretty much any point in my

:43:15.:43:18.

lifetime. I don't think now is the time for us to get rid of our

:43:19.:43:21.

nuclear deterrent. I think it is time for us to get Labour back into

:43:22.:43:25.

power in order to make the argument for multilateral disarmament across

:43:26.:43:26.

the world. APPLAUSE

:43:27.:43:31.

A number of other questions. I will take a scattering of them. The

:43:32.:43:46.

Jewish community is very worried about the state of the Labour Party

:43:47.:43:51.

at the moment. What is your plan to root out anti-Semitism? What do you

:43:52.:43:57.

mean? Most Jews do not feel safe on the streets, and there have been

:43:58.:44:00.

anti-Semitic reports in the Labour Party and they have done nothing to

:44:01.:44:07.

try and eliminate that. The young man is right, unfortunately. The

:44:08.:44:11.

Jewish community has traditionally looked to Labour to represented. We

:44:12.:44:15.

have been the farty they felt closest to their views.

:44:16.:44:17.

Unfortunately, right now it is only 8% of the Jewish community voting

:44:18.:44:22.

Labour and that is a big decline in recent months and years. We have

:44:23.:44:27.

seen anti-Semitism in our party. I don't think we have been strong

:44:28.:44:30.

enough in speaking out against that and it has diminished our capacity

:44:31.:44:33.

to speak out against it in the country. If it is not the Labour

:44:34.:44:38.

Party is speaking against racism and anti-Semitism and being heard in

:44:39.:44:41.

Britain, nobody else will do it. The answer has to be that we have to

:44:42.:44:44.

have zero tolerance for it in the Labour Party. We have to make sure

:44:45.:44:49.

that anybody found guilty of anti-Semitism or any racism has no

:44:50.:44:53.

place in the Labour Party. Any difference between you two on this?

:44:54.:44:57.

Yes, Jeremy has not been strong enough in speaking out about it. The

:44:58.:45:03.

report from Shami Chakrabarti is not viewed by the Jewish community as

:45:04.:45:06.

being adequate, is not thought to have taken the issue seriously, and

:45:07.:45:11.

I think we need a new review and a much more detailed, more

:45:12.:45:13.

high-powered review to look at the problem we have in Labour and to

:45:14.:45:14.

deal with it. When I became leader I understood a

:45:15.:45:23.

number of people had been suspended from the party before I became

:45:24.:45:28.

leader. I received reports of anti-Semitic remarks and behaviour

:45:29.:45:31.

at certain party events and I am well aware of the rise of

:45:32.:45:34.

anti-Semitism across Britain and Europe. The first point,

:45:35.:45:40.

anti-Semitism is absolutely and totally unacceptable anywhere in our

:45:41.:45:52.

society, and our party. The second point, I did ask Shami Chakrabati,

:45:53.:45:57.

the former director of Liberty to undertake an investigation, and I

:45:58.:46:01.

asked her to do it quickly so I could be in a position to put a

:46:02.:46:04.

statement to the national executive and put proposals to the conference

:46:05.:46:10.

to deal with issues of suspension and anti-Semitism in the party. We

:46:11.:46:14.

launched that report, and it obviously should be subject to

:46:15.:46:19.

review at a later stage to see how it's getting on. We have to say to

:46:20.:46:23.

everybody in the Labour Party, this is a safe place to be. It's a

:46:24.:46:28.

welcoming party to be, of people of all faiths, of all religions, to

:46:29.:46:33.

come to our party and work together to achieve the kind of social

:46:34.:46:40.

justice... APPLAUSE Your own Labour MP Ruth Smeaton said

:46:41.:46:48.

that you failed to intervene, and it was final proof when she was heckled

:46:49.:46:53.

at the meeting, final proof for me that you are unfit to lead and a

:46:54.:46:57.

Labour Party under your stewardship cannot be a safe space for British

:46:58.:47:02.

Jews. I'm very disappointed Ruth would say that. She was subject to

:47:03.:47:07.

some appalling abuse earlier this week and last weekend. I send my

:47:08.:47:12.

support, sympathy and solidarity to her, as I would anybody is subject

:47:13.:47:17.

to that kind of abuse. I do not accept any kind of racist abuse in

:47:18.:47:26.

any form or forum. She has been subject to abuse and Ruth is

:47:27.:47:29.

currently being protected by the police, so serious is the abuse she

:47:30.:47:34.

has been subjected to. The point she makes and the point other members of

:47:35.:47:38.

the Jewish community have made, under Jeremy's leadership, we have

:47:39.:47:42.

seen people coming into the Labour Party from the hard left of

:47:43.:47:46.

politics, bringing anti-Semitic attitudes into the party. That is

:47:47.:47:51.

not acceptable. Who are you talking about? I think there are people on

:47:52.:47:56.

the far left flooding into the Labour Party. That's their word not

:47:57.:48:03.

mine. The AWL, the Alliance of workers liberty, said a couple of

:48:04.:48:06.

weeks ago that they would flood into the Labour Party. Other people from

:48:07.:48:10.

hard left groups have come into Labour. I saw a tweet recently from

:48:11.:48:20.

Jeremy's... Purporting to be from Jeremy's team to a hard left group

:48:21.:48:24.

saying that you are welcome to come to Jeremy's rallies, just leave the

:48:25.:48:27.

flags and banners at home. The reason for that, we have seen some

:48:28.:48:32.

of those flags and banners at some of Jeremy's rallies. Unfortunately,

:48:33.:48:36.

some of those people are bringing a attitude into the party from the

:48:37.:48:41.

hard left. When you say the hard left, the Labour Party as a

:48:42.:48:44.

left-wing party. Are you saying these people shouldn't be allowed

:48:45.:48:52.

in? People coming in from the AWL and SWP, these people who have not

:48:53.:48:57.

been prescribed as not being members of the Labour Party, not being able

:48:58.:49:06.

to join. Some of the ways people are trying to get into the party,

:49:07.:49:12.

advocating Jeremy. Are you saying he's allowing it or advocating it? I

:49:13.:49:17.

think some people around Jeremy are absolutely encouraging it and that

:49:18.:49:25.

there is no doubt. I'm sure we can agree on two things. Firstly, that

:49:26.:49:29.

all of us together are going to make sure that we defeat any aspects of

:49:30.:49:34.

anti-Semitism within our party and society. On that I'm sure we are

:49:35.:49:39.

absolutely agreed, yes? We are agreed but I'm not sure you are

:49:40.:49:44.

entirely committed to it. Owen, that is a completely unfair way of saying

:49:45.:49:48.

it. I have spent my life opposing racism in any form, as have you.

:49:49.:49:54.

APPLAUSE I stand here, and many people on the

:49:55.:50:01.

left... Many people on the hard left of our party who have been alongside

:50:02.:50:07.

you over many years do associate anti-Zionist, anti-imperialist,

:50:08.:50:19.

antique anti-Israel perspective. I don't think you have been strong

:50:20.:50:23.

enough in speaking out against them and distancing yourself. We are all

:50:24.:50:27.

opposed to anti-Semitism and any form of racism in our society. That

:50:28.:50:32.

is what the core of our party is about. It was a statement put to the

:50:33.:50:36.

national executive that was unanimously agreed. Some of your

:50:37.:50:39.

Jewish Labour MPs do not feel the Labour Party under your leadership

:50:40.:50:43.

is a safe place. I support them in their right to their identity and

:50:44.:50:48.

what they say. I support them when they say they are abused, just as I

:50:49.:50:51.

would support anyone else who is abused. Just as you would. They

:50:52.:50:57.

don't feel that support. The young man who asked that in the first

:50:58.:51:02.

place? Jeremy says he's antiracism but he supports groups such as Hamas

:51:03.:51:12.

who call for the death of all Jews. No, I do not support Hamas, as you

:51:13.:51:17.

know. I have met people from Hamas. Do I agree with them? No. I think

:51:18.:51:24.

there is a chance of one day of getting a peace agreement between

:51:25.:51:30.

Palestine and Israel. I believe that and I want it to happen. Following

:51:31.:51:38.

on from the gentleman's question, a lot of members of the Muslim

:51:39.:51:41.

community also do not feel safe on the street. Islamophobia is an up

:51:42.:51:45.

and coming issue affecting many people in this country. Definitely.

:51:46.:51:51.

You say definitely, but you endorsed the Prevent strategy. Especially

:51:52.:51:59.

after many of the terrorist atrocities around the world. The

:52:00.:52:03.

backlash, the Muslim community, there are hate crimes against them.

:52:04.:52:08.

There are women who want to wear a headscarf who don't feel safe to

:52:09.:52:11.

leave the house. My question to you is, what will you do to make it

:52:12.:52:16.

safer for Muslims, as well as the Jewish community, apart from

:52:17.:52:20.

endorsing the Prevent programme, which virtually everybody is

:52:21.:52:25.

against. I hate to say it, but you are wrong. What I said was, when

:52:26.:52:31.

Prevent was started in 2005 under the Labour government, was designed

:52:32.:52:35.

to try to better integrate people who felt isolated in the Muslim

:52:36.:52:40.

community into wider society. It clearly hasn't worked. It wasn't

:52:41.:52:45.

working well under Labour, and has now been completely subverted by the

:52:46.:52:49.

Tories and is seen by many people as a racist project. So why do you want

:52:50.:52:54.

to increase the funding? I want to increase the funding in order to

:52:55.:52:58.

change it. How would you change it? By taking it back to what it was

:52:59.:53:04.

meant to be at the beginning, a scheme that was designed to

:53:05.:53:06.

integrate people. It has to be a scheme that was designed to mitigate

:53:07.:53:12.

against radicalism, and make sure the Muslim community feel fully

:53:13.:53:16.

integrated and celebrated in our community. All of us want that in

:53:17.:53:20.

our country. I'm certain it up I was leader of the Labour Party it would

:53:21.:53:27.

be my policy. We only have five minutes left. I would like to say

:53:28.:53:38.

something to him. Moving on from Prevent, don't you think we should

:53:39.:53:46.

actually build a much stronger sense of community cohesion among all

:53:47.:53:49.

faiths and groups, and generate a sense of antiracism in society. The

:53:50.:53:55.

danger is it isolates the Muslim community, targets young Muslims and

:53:56.:54:00.

expect teachers to report on them if they think they are going in a bad

:54:01.:54:05.

direction. Instead we should bring communities together. That bothers

:54:06.:54:08.

me about it. What bothers me as much is the growth of hate crime and

:54:09.:54:12.

racist violence on the streets of this country. We have to unite

:54:13.:54:16.

together to oppose all of that. APPLAUSE

:54:17.:54:26.

I want quick answers to this question. Our junior doctors right

:54:27.:54:30.

to go on strike and do you support them? It's a yes or no. They have

:54:31.:54:41.

every right to go on strike but I hope the government will, even now,

:54:42.:54:47.

engage in proper negotiations with the BMA, proper negotiations with

:54:48.:54:51.

junior doctors who are the lifeblood of our National Health Service. They

:54:52.:54:55.

do not want to withdraw labour, they want to support our NHS. The problem

:54:56.:55:04.

is Jeremy Hunt. The question wasn't do they have the right to strike,

:55:05.:55:08.

the question was are they right to strike? They felt they were forced

:55:09.:55:13.

into it. They have withdrawn the strike they planned because they

:55:14.:55:16.

hoped to get negotiations going and they are hoping the government will

:55:17.:55:20.

make some progress on it. I hope the government is listing because those

:55:21.:55:23.

doctors are crucial to our health service. Owen Smith? I would also

:55:24.:55:30.

defend their right to go on strike. I think the strike is potentially

:55:31.:55:34.

dangerous which is why they said they would call off the five-day

:55:35.:55:37.

strike they were planning. I completely understand the way they

:55:38.:55:42.

feel about our NHS. ?2.5 billion in debt in our country. A, maternity

:55:43.:55:48.

units closing down. The Tories undermining the NHS at every turn.

:55:49.:55:54.

That's why we need a Labour government to reinvest again and I

:55:55.:55:58.

would invest 60 billion over a five-year parliament. A lot of solid

:55:59.:56:07.

political questions. Eight an intriguing question from Suzy

:56:08.:56:13.

Robertson. My dad is a retired bus driver and was proud to receive an

:56:14.:56:18.

MBE from the Queen for services to trade unions. What's your view on

:56:19.:56:24.

the monarchy? Jeremy Corbyn. I'm glad he received an honour, well

:56:25.:56:28.

done to him, but I just don't think serving politicians should receive

:56:29.:56:36.

an honour. That was not the question. The question was, what's

:56:37.:56:44.

your view the monarchy? I'm I thought the view was on the honours?

:56:45.:56:48.

No, what's your view on the monarchy? I'm not campaigning on the

:56:49.:56:54.

issues of the monarchy, I'm campaigning on the issues of

:56:55.:57:00.

democracy in our society. I'm in favour of retaining the economy. I

:57:01.:57:05.

think the Queen does a great job and I'm sure your father was very

:57:06.:57:08.

pleased to get the award. Good on him. Patrick Morrell, very brief,

:57:09.:57:16.

please. How would you heal the divisions in the Labour Party, and

:57:17.:57:20.

as a winner would you offer a post to the winner, and as loser would

:57:21.:57:24.

you serve under the winner? I think we have that answered. I want the

:57:25.:57:31.

party to come together. I want us to end the election campaign, agree on

:57:32.:57:36.

our general political direction on austerity, social justice and those

:57:37.:57:39.

things we agree on. Of course I would be delighted to work with Owen

:57:40.:57:44.

Smith. Would you offer him a post? I've already done it. I think he

:57:45.:57:48.

should be president or chairman of the party. It doesn't exist! We end

:57:49.:57:57.

where we started. Our time is up, I'm afraid. Thank you both very much

:57:58.:57:59.

indeed. Question Time will be

:58:00.:58:01.

in Salisbury next week, with Education Secretary Justine

:58:02.:58:03.

Greening for the Conservatives, Labour's Shadow Chancellor John

:58:04.:58:05.

McDonnell, and Tony Blair's former Director

:58:06.:58:08.

of Communications Alastair Campbell. BOOING

:58:09.:58:13.

Hold it. The following week we'll be

:58:14.:58:17.

in Sutton Coldfield. If you would like to come along,

:58:18.:58:19.

go to our website, or call

:58:20.:58:22.

0330 123 99 88. Thanks to Jeremy Corbyn,

:58:23.:58:25.

Owen Smith, and the audience. From Oldham, until next

:58:26.:58:30.

Thursday, goodnight.

:58:31.:58:34.

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