15/09/2016 Question Time


15/09/2016

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Tonight we're in Salisbury, and this is Question Time.

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Welcome to you, and to our panel tonight.

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Conservative former Business Minister Anna Soubry.

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and Jeremy Corbyn's close ally, John McDonnell.

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The SNP's justice spokesperson at Westminster, Joanna Cherry.

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The Daily Mail theatre critic and Parliamentary sketch writer

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And Tony Blair's former Director of Communications,

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Before we take our first question,

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don't forget Facebook, Twitter, or text 83981 to comment

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Our first question from Martyn Ball, please. Our grammar school was the

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answer to our education mess? Anna Soubry? I am not sure I would

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describe it as a mess. It is right that there are 1.25 and children

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either in poor schools, or schools that need to improve, but I think it

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is right to have a debate and it is right that we should look at new

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options. In many ways, what the Government is putting forward is

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something new, which is that existing grammar schools might be

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able to effectively have satellite schools in neighbouring areas. I

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will be very frank with you. In my constituency we have four secondary

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schools. I don't think we even need or want a grammar school. One of my

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schools is an outstanding academy that has benefited from the Academy

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programme of the last coalition government, and I am a firm believer

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in continuing with the Academy programme. But I think it's right we

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have a debate about it. But I take the view that grammar schools are

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not the silver bullet that I think some people think they are. But when

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I look at my neighbouring city of Nottingham, and we have had decades

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of bad Labour rule and poor schools, I want to know what the solutions

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are going to be to make sure that every child, wherever they are,

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whatever their background, that they all have the great school that every

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child needs and deserves. That is the task. Will you vote against when

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it comes to it? I don't go have a problem with... Take Lincolnshire,

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which has the 11 plus. If there is a need, in a town like Newark, which

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borders Lincolnshire, where we know there are parents who choose to put

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their children into grammar schools in Lincolnshire, if they have a

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satellite school there and it is seen to be a good thing to raise

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what has been a problem in that town with its existing school, I wouldn't

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have an ideological opposition to that. I would struggle if we said

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that the solution in a city like Nottingham is to have grammar

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schools. I look at what has happened in London and we have achieved huge

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success in London by building up the Academy programme, by having great,

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brilliant teachers, by putting aspiration into our schools. That, I

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believe, is the real solution to making sure every child has a great

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school. And not the grammar school as an absolute guarantee. I don't

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think it's an absolute, and we certainly don't want to go back to

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the system which existed when I was young, a long time ago. I took the

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11 plus and passed. Lots of people failed and they bore that for the

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rest of their lives, and that was wrong.

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APPLAUSE I think that was a very heroic

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effort by Anna Soubry to pretend that actually she thinks this is

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anything other than a pretty silly policy. And she is absolutely right

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and that is the indication she gave in the House of Commons. If you

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watched the end of this programme last week it was announced that

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Justine Greening was going to be on the panel. Although Twitter has said

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I have come on to have a Barney with John McDonnell, I was hoping to have

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a Barney with Justine Greening about this ridiculous policy. The reason

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why... I honestly don't know why Theresa May is doing this. She has

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no mandate for it. David Cameron was absolutely clear that he thought

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this was a red great step. If you look at the countries that have the

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best educated children, around the world there are three that come up

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again and again. Finland, South Korea and the other one is... Never

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save three! Finland, South Korea and Canada. And they have the most

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components of systems. They understand that comprehensive means

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all-inclusive. The point about selection, Theresa May is trying to

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give the impression that everybody will be selected to go to a grammar

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school. Selection means rejection. And the rejection that Anna Soubry

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talked about, and I went to two grammar schools, and the rejection,

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I think, does give people a sense of stigma that can stay with them

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through their lives. This country has suffered for too long by having

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an elitist approach to education. And we should finally give proper

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comprehensive education a real go. APPLAUSE

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I don't agree with Alistair. I don't think we have had an elitist

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approach to education for a long time. And I can't see what is wrong

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with selection. OK, that brings rejection, but we are a country of X

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Factor and Britain's Got Talent. People are comfortable with the idea

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of children advancing on merit. I can understand why a Labour are

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uneasy about grammar schools, because if you have been brought up

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doing Latin prep and start into a tight blazer you are less likely to

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be a socialist. I don't know what they tight little blazer as to do

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with being a socialist. That is what he wore. That is what I am still

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wearing. But what I cannot understand is people in the centre

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and certain people in the Conservative Party who are opposed

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to grammar schools, because it strikes me they are about

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aspiration, excellence, opportunity and about... Let me finish. And

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about competition. And I think competition is very important. The

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question was whether grammars are the answer to our schools mess. I

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don't think that is even close to what is being proposed because there

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are so many other types of school and they will continue. But if

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people want grammars, if parents want grammars and if teachers want

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to teach in grammars, let it happen. I am in favour of that, because it

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strikes me as common sense, children, if they are in a class

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with their own ability, are likely to hit off each other and do better

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as a result. And I can't see why we can have selection on merit in

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music, we can have it in games, why can't we have it with academic

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excellence? There are a lot of hands up so let's hear from our audience.

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The woman in red. I was just wondering, with regard to the towns

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and cities that do not have grammar schools, the schools that are there

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and not necessarily doing as well, why aren't we putting more money and

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investing in those schools to support the children that have

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learning difficulties, disabilities, mental health problems?

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APPLAUSE That's exact the what we're doing.

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The man with spectacles. The competition on the X Factor is for

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entertainment, and 90% of that in the early stages is about

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humiliation. And I think selection of 11-year-olds to take the cream

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off the top, as the elites would put it, I think it is a scandal and the

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debate should end right now. APPLAUSE

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Two voices against, any in favour of more grammar schools? Yes, I am in

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favour of grammar schools. I was going to the man behind. There is

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competition here! Firstly, I went to a grammar school sixth form myself.

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I think we need to remember that Theresa May's proposals are not just

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saying there will be 111 plus and if you fail you have no chance of going

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to a grammar school. There will be 12, 13 plus, so there is going to be

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a bit of time, if someone does not pass their 11 plus. They can try

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again the next year. I think it really does foster this idea of

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aspiration. That is part of the reason why I managed to get into the

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grammar school sixth form nearby. I just want to quickly go to a point

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Alistair made about the divisions in our education system today. If we

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are going to be talking about a lack of fairness in our education system

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and rejection, why can't we talk about private schools and the role

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they have? I agree with that. John McDonnell. Watch my lips. I agree

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with Alastair Campbell 100%.! What, that new Labour was a great success?

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He is at it again with spin, isn't he? New Labour never abolished the

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grammar schools, did they? We prevented the extension of any new

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ones. And actually, I frankly wish that we had. But that is a very

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difficult opinion to hold at that time. Tony Blair took a judgment

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that it wasn't worth the political aggravation we would have, but I

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think we should have dealt with this once and for all. Outlawed

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selection? Yes. All of the evidenced in straits that grammar schools will

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benefit a limited few but will not benefit others and do not raise

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standards overall. That is not just me talking. That is why David

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Cameron opposed it, as Alistair said, that is what he said it was

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taking us back to the 1950s. The head of Ofsted, the very person

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appointed by the government to look at social mode to, the Institute for

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education, all those international comparisons. This is the wrong way

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to go. The right way to go is to recognise we have problems in our

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education system, partly about underinvestment. Class sizes are

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rising on a large scale. In addition, we have lost in this last

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year or so the largest number of teachers from this profession that

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we have lost in a generation, largely because of the intense

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pressure they are under on a teaching to the test system we have.

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If you look at where we have succeeded in the past in raising

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standards, yes, look at what happened under Tony Blair,

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education, education, education, under London challenge, where we had

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some of the worst schools in the country. We put in resources, made

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sure we brought in the best teachers possible, and now we have the best

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schools in the country. And this isn't, as well, about rich and poor

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areas. Some of the best schools in London, as a result of that

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investment, are in the poorest boroughs. That is the way forward,

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that is the way about investment and respecting the professionals within

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the field itself. This is really dangerous, but I agree with John

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McDonnell. APPLAUSE

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Joanna Cherry, as an SNP MP you do not really have a dog in the fight

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when it comes to it because this is about England, not Scotland. Yes,

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David. Education is devolved. We will have to look carefully at any

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proposals brought forward by the Conservative government at

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Westminster to see whether they have financial implications for Scotland.

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But we do not believe grammar schools are the answer to the

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challenges of the education system. The challenge to the education

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system in a democracy should be to give every child the best chance

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possible of having a good education. It is natural for parents to want to

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do the best possible for their own children, but the government has to

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do the best possible for all children. And all the evidence shows

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that children from low income families do worse in selective

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systems. Kent has a selective system. Evidence shows that in Kent,

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children from low income families are not doing as well as other

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children. Theresa May, when she came to power, made a song and dance

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about how she wants to represent working-class families. But in

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relation to this policy which she has pulled out of a hat, the reality

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does not match her rhetoric. Every country faces challenges with

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education. We face a challenge in Scotland and Nicola Sturgeon has put

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closing the attainment gap at the heart of our programme for

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government. But the way we are doing that is to invest in all children.

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We have doubled early life care, so there is double the amount of time

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available for three-year olds and four-year-olds in preschool care, we

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are investing ?700 million across the schools sector in all schools to

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improve standards, and we are tackling the underlying social

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inequality that means some children do not do as well as others by

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tackling child poverty in the child poverty Bill. That is the way

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forward, that every child gets the same chance. Does your experience in

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Scotland in title due to vote on England and English education and

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grammar schools in England? As I have said, we are at an early stage.

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I have asked a direct question. You have talked about the proposals. Do

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you think the SNP has a dog in the fight, or should it stand back and

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say this is a matter for England? I can't answer whether the SNP has a

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dog in the fight until I see the legislation. It will not affect

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Scotland. Fit has implications for the Scottish budget, we will vote on

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it but we have to see the legislation before we make a

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decision. Let's hear from some members of the

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audience, you in the striped shirt, please? I went to the local grammar

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school after failing the 11 plus and 12 plus and finally passing the 13

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plus and all through that period of time at 11, I felt like I was

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useless, didn't deserve an education, that was kind of higher

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than everyone else because there's only one grammar school in the whole

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area so it's kind of amplified anyway. You know, I think with a

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crisis in young people's mental health anyway, why are we putting

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that pressure on 11-year-olds when we could be putting more money into

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fantastic comprehensives? ! APPLAUSE.

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How did you feel at 13? I felt like, when I look at it

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retrospectively, it was ridiculous, I felt that I finally got somewhere

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that I finally deserved to be and once I got to university and was

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surrounded by kids from public school, I realised, oh, actually

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maybe we are all in the same place and there are plenty of wonderful

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kids here who had comprehensive school education and I was obsessed

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with something because of the surroundings that I was expected to

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do. The woman in the second row?

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I went to a grammar school. I don't feel it did me any better or worse

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than any other school. There are a lot of children at that time that

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came from all different social classes and backgrounds and they all

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did equally as well. My concern with grammars at the moment is that a lot

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of parents are paying for their children to have specific training

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for this test and they are only passing because they've been given

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specific training to get through the 11 plus. These children can get to

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grammar school and then find Thirlwall out of their depth.

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A brief point? These stories which are very interesting show surely

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that those tremendous appetites for grammars, there is pressure on

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grammar places, people want their children in them. Does that not come

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out of these stories? They are tremendous equalisers of

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opportunity. Social mobility is going the wrong way at the moment.

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The grammar school system's not helped social mobility and I believe

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very firmly that grammars could open up opportunities to kids from poor

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backgrounds who've got the brainpower. It must be right. But 3%

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of grammar school pupils have free school meals, 3% compared to 15 in

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the States. Grammar schools could be dog that now, they don't. Kent and

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Buckinghamshire, for example, huge counties. The attainment gap in Ken

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and Buckinghamshire is twice as big as in Hackney which is one of the

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poorest communities, as John said. You at the back there. We must keep

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moving because we have a lot of questions. I seem to be the only

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person in the room that went to a secondary school and failed the

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11-plus and I'm proud that I did it. I felt that if I'd gone to a grammar

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school at the time, I wouldn't have fitted in, that the education that I

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got in the secondary school was just right for me. I was at the top of

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the secondary school so I felt really good. It was a bit

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patronising from one of the members to say, they had that for the rest

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of their lives. Some do. Many did. Lots don't and every person is

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different. If you are academically inclined, then you need a school

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that can cater to that. If you are not academic, you need a school to

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cater that as well. A lot of hands up, we can't obviously do the whole

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programme on grammar schools, interesting as it would be, but

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hands up in the audience for those who'd like to see in principle, more

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grammar schools, and then I'll ask for those who don't, and how many

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would not like to see more? That's a two to one. OK. Thank you very much.

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We'll go on to another question, but before we do, we are in Sutton

:18:56.:19:00.

Coldfield in Birmingham next week and Boston in Lincolnshire the week

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after that. Come and join us. Go to the website address or you can phone

:19:08.:19:13.

you will. Details at the end. Let's have another question from Olivia

:19:14.:19:18.

Parsons, please? With the Labour Party currently tearing Riths apart,

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is the SNP the only credible opposition to the Government? --

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tearing itself apart. Alastair Campbell? The SNP is the Government

:19:29.:19:33.

in Scotland and I think the way that the SNP became the Government has

:19:34.:19:39.

lessons for the Labour Party. My real worry about the Labour Party at

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the moment is that if we are not careful, we can go into frankly

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oblivion. We have no divine right to exist. There were times, Joanna I

:19:53.:19:57.

talked about this earlier, the Labour Party took Scotland for

:19:58.:20:00.

granted for a long time, far too long and we paid a very, very heavy

:20:01.:20:05.

price. And I fear that what's happening at the moment with the

:20:06.:20:11.

Labour Party is that we are not reaching out beyond a fairly narrow

:20:12.:20:16.

core. It's great that Jeremy and John and the rest of them have

:20:17.:20:19.

brought in lots of new people into the party and there's a lot of

:20:20.:20:25.

energy in there. But I worry that we are losing the things that you need

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to do, both the policy agenda and the politics that actually allow you

:20:31.:20:35.

to win general elections. What are you thinking of in particular? Into

:20:36.:20:39.

politics has become, you are right about tearing itself apart and I

:20:40.:20:44.

think that in a sense, I'm not saying there's only blame on Jeremy

:20:45.:20:50.

Corbyn, but I do think this whole momentum thing has been incredibly

:20:51.:20:55.

divisive. I think a lot of people in the Labour Party, who've been in the

:20:56.:20:58.

Labour Party a long time, feel this is going back to a politics of the

:20:59.:21:04.

1980s. There is a nastiness in the party which we haven't had since the

:21:05.:21:09.

1980s and there's always been an element within the Labour Party that

:21:10.:21:13.

prefers having power in the party to winning power in the country. You

:21:14.:21:20.

need that. That's fine. But you can't have that as the driving force

:21:21.:21:25.

in the party. Now, when I say this, and I guarantee now the Twitter

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trolls will be straight in, he's obsessed with winning, he's a Tory,

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I get it all the time. I'm obsessed with winning because unless we win,

:21:35.:21:40.

the Tories can bring back grammar schools, unless we win, we wouldn't

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have been able to have things like the minimum wage and Sure Start and

:21:45.:21:47.

Steve luges to Scotland and peace in Northern Ireland and all the others

:21:48.:21:50.

things that we did. You have to win power in this country. John talks

:21:51.:21:54.

about build ago social movement. Social movements don't deliver the

:21:55.:21:58.

things that a Labour Government did and a Labour Government in the

:21:59.:22:02.

future can, so I do want the Labour Party to unite, but it has to unite

:22:03.:22:08.

around something, a policy agenda an politics that we can actually go to

:22:09.:22:13.

places like this. I can remember we went to Dorset south in 1997 not far

:22:14.:22:18.

from here and the media said, this is just a stunt you coming to Dorset

:22:19.:22:21.

south, you are never going to win this. We won it and held it. Not by

:22:22.:22:27.

being hard left, not by saying, anybody who's a Tory is a bad

:22:28.:22:31.

person. We are going to have to get Tories to volt for us, we are going

:22:32.:22:35.

to have to get SNP people to vote for us, and a is how we win. And if

:22:36.:22:41.

we don't understand that, and act according to that, I'm afraid I

:22:42.:22:44.

worry genuinely that we are facing oblivion.

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APPLAUSE. John McDonnell? We have to win. We

:22:54.:22:56.

have to win. No-one's arguing that we don't have to win, we have to win

:22:57.:23:01.

elections and we have to ensure that we have the broadest appeal. We have

:23:02.:23:04.

to recognise the political times in which we are in. The reason Jeremy

:23:05.:23:11.

Corbyn got elected leader is because he reflects a movement right across

:23:12.:23:15.

Europe and America as well, people have been through the crash of 2008,

:23:16.:23:20.

people have experienced the austerity over the years and wanted

:23:21.:23:23.

something different. People who wanted a straightforward politics as

:23:24.:23:26.

well without spin and triang layings. We had straightforward

:23:27.:23:31.

policies. It was straightforward. Let me finish. Let me finish. I

:23:32.:23:37.

think that's what people voted for when they eelected Jeremy to be

:23:38.:23:41.

leader of the party. And at that point in time, we'd lost a general

:23:42.:23:44.

election, we were between seven and ten points behind in the polls. What

:23:45.:23:49.

then happen suicide that we won't every Parliamentary by-election and

:23:50.:23:53.

increased our majorities, we won every mayoral election, we matched

:23:54.:23:58.

Ed Miliband in the local council elections at his highest. So you

:23:59.:24:02.

were on course to victory? Let me just... Hang on, these long lists...

:24:03.:24:09.

Let me finish this point, overtaken the Conservatives in the polls so we

:24:10.:24:15.

were laying the foundations, I believe, for electoral victory in

:24:16.:24:18.

due course and were bringing together the party left, right and

:24:19.:24:21.

centre. The Shadow Cabinet that Jeremy appointed was from left,

:24:22.:24:25.

right and centre. What went wrong because you are now clearly not

:24:26.:24:28.

leading the polls? Fair enough, fair enough. The lesson we have got to

:24:29.:24:31.

learn very clearly is that people will not vote for a divided party.

:24:32.:24:37.

What happened is that a group of unfortunately people within the

:24:38.:24:40.

party weren't willing to accept Jeremy's mandate, they launched what

:24:41.:24:44.

was effectively a coup and we have had a couple of months of absolute

:24:45.:24:47.

distraction. I'm interested in one thing, do you think the country as a

:24:48.:24:51.

whole has moved to the left? You make no bones about saying you are a

:24:52.:24:55.

Marxist, your reaction to the capitalist. I'm a Marxist, I'm

:24:56.:25:01.

honest with people, is that what the country wants from a Chancellor of

:25:02.:25:03.

the Exchequer. I'm a socialist. Marxist is the words you used. Why

:25:04.:25:09.

did you say I'm a Marxist? I was demonstrating a prediction of the

:25:10.:25:13.

capitalist crisis at the time. I'm honest with people, you said, I'm a

:25:14.:25:19.

Marxist. I was saying I was predicting what would be said in

:25:20.:25:23.

terms of the economic crisis. You said, I'm a Marxist. Go on YouTube

:25:24.:25:27.

and you can watch it. APPLAUSE.

:25:28.:25:34.

And I'll tell you something else. I was predicting what was coming. You

:25:35.:25:39.

are a very nasty piece of work and I shall tell you this as well, let me

:25:40.:25:45.

tell you what's happened... Let me finish. Let me tell you what's

:25:46.:25:48.

happening in Parliament, I don't agree with Labour MPs but there are

:25:49.:25:54.

a number who're good and honourable. Decent people who believe in things

:25:55.:25:58.

that I don't agree with. But they add value and they are elected, they

:25:59.:26:03.

haven't formed a Government but they are there to do a job. The job they

:26:04.:26:07.

are there to do is to hold my Government to account and to

:26:08.:26:11.

represent those of you who're not Conservatives and make sure that

:26:12.:26:15.

your voice is heard and democracy prevails. And many of these people

:26:16.:26:23.

are frightened, so frightened, humiliated, almost terrorised by Mr

:26:24.:26:27.

McDonnell and his gang, they will leave politics and that's bad for

:26:28.:26:30.

politics. Absolute rubbish. And there is a final example of it,

:26:31.:26:34.

ladies and gentlemen. You are being let down, as a democracy. We need

:26:35.:26:39.

good, strong oppositions who're credible, who test Government, hold

:26:40.:26:44.

them to account. APPLAUSE.

:26:45.:26:48.

We are in the position of relying on the SNP to do the job of the

:26:49.:26:53.

opposition. John McDonnell. It's shameful. You said he was a very

:26:54.:26:59.

nasty piece of work. I think he is. You mange that, you need to justify

:27:00.:27:04.

it if you have said that? There are colleagues of mine in the House of

:27:05.:27:08.

Commons, Labour MPs, who are at the point of being terrorised by

:27:09.:27:14.

McDonnell and his cronies. By who? They don't stand up to them. There

:27:15.:27:20.

are women MPs who suffer day in and day out from misogynist unpleasant

:27:21.:27:26.

sexist abuse on Twitter, Facebook, from people who apparently are

:27:27.:27:30.

within their own party. There is a Jewish Labour MP, a woman, who is

:27:31.:27:35.

living in a safe house because of the levels of anti-Semitism she has

:27:36.:27:39.

to bear. It's a disgrace and it must stop and you, Sir, can stop it.

:27:40.:27:46.

APPLAUSE. Alastair Campbell, do you... Sorry,

:27:47.:27:51.

let me respond. Do you recognise that picture... I will let you.

:27:52.:27:57.

You've not allowed me to spook. Let me make this absolute clear and we

:27:58.:28:00.

have made it clear time and time again - we will not tolerate abuse

:28:01.:28:05.

within the Labour Party, we've condemned it time and time again.

:28:06.:28:07.

APPLAUSE. Every time there's been a level of

:28:08.:28:12.

abuse that's been waged, Jeremy Corbyn's made it absolutely clear,

:28:13.:28:15.

if we have identified the individual, they'll be out of this

:28:16.:28:19.

party and suspended, simple as that. We are not accepting this smear

:28:20.:28:22.

campaign that's going on from the Tories and others as well. We've

:28:23.:28:26.

been working, over the last year, to unite the party, and we were winning

:28:27.:28:31.

electorally and in the polls. Yes, a coup was launched by a small

:28:32.:28:36.

minority who could not accept Jeremy's mandate. What we... We are

:28:37.:28:40.

a small minority who could not accept the mandate. Jeremy was

:28:41.:28:49.

elected on the basis of 59.5% of our members. We are now going through a

:28:50.:28:54.

democratic election. Once that election is over, whoever is the

:28:55.:28:59.

leader, whoever is the leader, we will unite behind. And we have been

:29:00.:29:04.

effective opposition in terms of defeating the Tories on Tax Credits,

:29:05.:29:08.

PIP, cuts for disabled people and a range of other things. What were you

:29:09.:29:13.

saying at the back there? Who was shouting out about MPs?

:29:14.:29:21.

It was 80% of MPs who had no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn. That

:29:22.:29:30.

isn't what a minority. Alastair Campbell, do you recognise anything

:29:31.:29:36.

of what Anna Soubry said in Labour? I said earlier, I will not get

:29:37.:29:40.

personal, I said earlier I think there is a level of nasty nurse in

:29:41.:29:43.

the Labour Party at the moment that is upsetting for a lot of people. --

:29:44.:29:48.

nasty nurse. It is not necessary and it is not nice. I think it is

:29:49.:29:52.

because there are some elements of the old Har left to have frankly

:29:53.:29:55.

always hated the Labour Party who now have a big voice within the

:29:56.:29:59.

Labour Party. That is a fact and I think it will turn the public off

:30:00.:30:04.

once they know that is going on. But I also want to say something about

:30:05.:30:08.

what John said about how this has come about. Because these members of

:30:09.:30:12.

the Shadow Cabinet who, I don't even see this as a coup. I see this as a

:30:13.:30:17.

group of people who were trying to make something work and who decided

:30:18.:30:20.

over time that this isn't working and it's not going to work. And I

:30:21.:30:26.

look at what this government is doing. I look at something like

:30:27.:30:30.

Brexit. OK, there has been a referendum. I was, as was Anna

:30:31.:30:36.

Soubry, on the losing side, but I know and I still feel this is

:30:37.:30:40.

potentially a disaster for the country, and I see no opposition. I

:30:41.:30:43.

don't see the opposition with a strategy. We have a strategy. I

:30:44.:30:54.

don't see it. And when John talks about, we have two Unite, yes, we

:30:55.:30:58.

have to unite, but we have to be clear what we are uniting around.

:30:59.:31:02.

What is interesting in the leadership debate is that there has

:31:03.:31:05.

been virtually no difference on policy. The most common expression

:31:06.:31:11.

used by Owen Smith is, I agree with Jeremy. So the issue is not around

:31:12.:31:15.

policy. We have turned those arguments around. We are an

:31:16.:31:19.

anti-austerities party, we have red lines in terms of the Brexit

:31:20.:31:23.

campaign which is unanimously agreed, and we are campaigning. We

:31:24.:31:29.

are distracted by a leadership election that should never have been

:31:30.:31:33.

brought about. APPLAUSE

:31:34.:31:34.

Joanna Cherry. The question was, is the SNP the only credible opposition

:31:35.:31:41.

because Labour is tearing itself apart? I think you have the answer

:31:42.:31:47.

to your question. We have seen Labour tearing itself apart on the

:31:48.:31:54.

panel this evening. I don't care whether John is a Marxist or a

:31:55.:31:57.

socialist, I don't care whether people are nasty to each other or

:31:58.:32:01.

not. We are grown up and can cope with acrimony. What I care about is

:32:02.:32:06.

whether or not the Labour Party is forming an effective opposition to

:32:07.:32:08.

this Conservative government and it is patenting the clear they are not.

:32:09.:32:12.

They are simply incapable of doing it. -- it is patenting the clear.

:32:13.:32:20.

Earlier this summer, when we had the result of the European referendum

:32:21.:32:23.

campaign the government were missing in action, but so were the official

:32:24.:32:27.

opposition. The only person who had any sort of plan or strategy was the

:32:28.:32:32.

SNP leader, the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon. You don't

:32:33.:32:36.

have too agree with us but I think you can agree that she had a plan

:32:37.:32:39.

and the strategy and she is carrying it through. Three months later we

:32:40.:32:44.

still do not know what Theresa May's plan is. She says Brexit means

:32:45.:32:49.

Brexit but has no idea what Brexit means. The official opposition

:32:50.:32:52.

should be harrying government over that, cross examining them, holding

:32:53.:32:56.

them to account for the shambles and lack of policy they have. Instead,

:32:57.:33:00.

they are fighting amongst themselves like a bunch of student politicians.

:33:01.:33:04.

Jeremy Corbyn doesn't even raised the issue of... If you would let me

:33:05.:33:11.

speak, because you had a long time to speak earlier. Jeremy Corbyn

:33:12.:33:16.

seems incapable of asking the Prime Minister about Brexit, the biggest

:33:17.:33:19.

crisis facing the country at the moment. He does not want to bring it

:33:20.:33:23.

up, I suspect, because he does not really believe in the European

:33:24.:33:28.

Union. It is left to the leader of the SNP at Westminster, Angus

:33:29.:33:32.

Robertson, to interrogate Theresa May repeatedly about what Brexit

:33:33.:33:35.

means. Does it mean we will stay in the single market, will you need a

:33:36.:33:39.

Visa to go on holiday to Spain or France? Does it mean that pas

:33:40.:33:46.

sporting for financial services will be taken away, damaging the City of

:33:47.:33:50.

London and the financial sector in the city of Edinburgh, which I

:33:51.:33:53.

represent. She is not able to answer these questions but it is not Labour

:33:54.:33:57.

are asking those questions, it is my party. I want to pick up on what

:33:58.:34:02.

John said... I want to come to Quentin Letts. As you can see, it is

:34:03.:34:07.

interesting in Parliament at the moment and to be a sketch writer is

:34:08.:34:12.

bliss. In the House of Commons, the SNP at ten a lot. They talk a heck

:34:13.:34:16.

of a lot but they are fairly parochial and they are not listened

:34:17.:34:21.

to much, I don't think. That is very harsh. The Commons is more nuanced

:34:22.:34:27.

than that. There is opposition on the Tory benches. In public life,

:34:28.:34:31.

opposition comes from different quarters. Not just in Parliament

:34:32.:34:35.

but, there I say it, from the BBC's sometimes, from the establishment

:34:36.:34:40.

blob. There is opposition to the government and look at its

:34:41.:34:43.

difficulty with the grammar schools proposal. It would be wrong to say

:34:44.:34:47.

the SNP is the only opposition. I have a bit of a soft spot for Jeremy

:34:48.:34:51.

Corbyn on a personal level. But there is this paradox in Labour.

:34:52.:34:55.

Corbyn seems to be quite honest in some way 's. He has a certain

:34:56.:35:01.

lascivious glint in his eye that I quite like. With his Steptoe

:35:02.:35:07.

haircut, I think here's an interesting, likeable figure. But at

:35:08.:35:12.

the same time, there is this Momentum lot who are unpleasant with

:35:13.:35:15.

their views on Israel and the way they have been treating some MPs. I

:35:16.:35:20.

would give a warning to John. I went this week to see a tale of two

:35:21.:35:23.

would give a warning to John. I went cities, and that shows the French

:35:24.:35:24.

Revolution, a fascinating production. But road spear, a leader

:35:25.:35:32.

of the Revolution, came unstuck and got killed by his revolutionaries.

:35:33.:35:36.

Let that be a lesson to you, my friend. If you get into that extreme

:35:37.:35:40.

revolutionary behaviour, you get the reign of terror, and that is what I

:35:41.:35:46.

think is going to happen. The reign of terror. I see it in front of me.

:35:47.:35:51.

Who shall we go to? The man in the pale blue shirt. I think it is

:35:52.:35:59.

indicative of the state the Labour Party is in when it takes a Tory MP

:36:00.:36:04.

to defend Labour MPs from abuse from within their own party, and it takes

:36:05.:36:08.

the SNP to argue against the Tory MP. It is a scandal that you have a

:36:09.:36:13.

party so divided against itself and six to represent ordinary people by

:36:14.:36:18.

doing the work it does. You have the point that Quentin Letts made,

:36:19.:36:23.

Jeremy Corbyn went to an event for Labour friends of Israel and did not

:36:24.:36:27.

mention Israel or Jews once. He stuck to his steel.

:36:28.:36:37.

The Labour Party is moving towards being an organisation of protest,

:36:38.:36:41.

not an organisation with the ability to pursue power and policies through

:36:42.:36:44.

Parliament. You only need to look at the 80%. If you cannot lead, you

:36:45.:36:48.

can't win and you can't achieve anything. The first line of our

:36:49.:36:54.

constitution is that we exist to be a force in Parliament. This is why

:36:55.:36:58.

the MPs are so important, the PLP is so important, and they are being

:36:59.:37:03.

sidelined. Does Tony Blair bear the principal blame, over Iraq and other

:37:04.:37:11.

things in his own private behaviour subsequently? Do you think that the

:37:12.:37:16.

Blair years, your years, that this is what follows because of what they

:37:17.:37:21.

were? I certainly don't put everything at the door of Jeremy

:37:22.:37:26.

Corbyn. That would be really unfair. They're right issues going back to

:37:27.:37:29.

when we were in power, Iraq being the most obvious in terms of policy,

:37:30.:37:34.

but also tuition fees which were difficult for a lot of people. We

:37:35.:37:38.

lost support, but don't forget we did win an election after Iraq. The

:37:39.:37:42.

second thing I would say is that I think what Tony Blair always tried

:37:43.:37:49.

to do was to understand that most people are not living in the

:37:50.:37:54.

political bubble that we live in. I think he always had an understanding

:37:55.:37:57.

of that and I think there is a danger at the moment that we are

:37:58.:38:04.

losing that. I think we focus far too much on that Tony- Gordon thing

:38:05.:38:09.

was very damaging. I think that led to a training of talent. We did not

:38:10.:38:12.

bring on talent in the way we should and could have done. -- it led to a

:38:13.:38:21.

training of talent. I think a lot of people feel Hacked Off with

:38:22.:38:24.

inequality and they are looking for something very, very different. My

:38:25.:38:29.

point is that they should not be looking for something that

:38:30.:38:31.

different. Take the personalities out of it, do the sort of politics

:38:32.:38:36.

that we tried to give to the country. Wait a minute, John. It is

:38:37.:38:43.

a disaster for the Labour Party. Nauseating. Because you are the

:38:44.:38:47.

person, above all else, who created a political environment where no one

:38:48.:38:51.

believe a word a politician said. APPLAUSE

:38:52.:38:56.

You lost 5 million votes in that process and set us up to fail. The

:38:57.:39:02.

reason Jeremy was elected was because they wanted some honesty

:39:03.:39:09.

back in politics again. Look, John, I have come on here tonight to be as

:39:10.:39:15.

nice to you as I possibly can. The feeling is mutual. I will tell you

:39:16.:39:19.

why, because I care about the Labour Party. I really care about the

:39:20.:39:22.

Labour Party and I worry that you and yours are destroying it. And

:39:23.:39:27.

what's more, I actually worry that you don't even care. You took us to

:39:28.:39:31.

the edge and we are trying to restore honesty and confidence in

:39:32.:39:38.

politics that you destroyed. It is just unbelievable. It is

:39:39.:39:45.

unbelievable that we win three general elections, do things like

:39:46.:39:49.

the minimum wage, and all he wants to do... Which we supported. And you

:39:50.:39:55.

took us to Iraq. I understand why newspapers like the Daily Mail wants

:39:56.:39:59.

to trash Tony Blair, because we won elections and they are a right wing

:40:00.:40:03.

paper. I understand why the Tories want to trash new Labour, because we

:40:04.:40:08.

beat them three times. But when the Labour Party is doing it, it is

:40:09.:40:12.

utterly ridiculous and it is part of, I am afraid, the revolutionary

:40:13.:40:16.

posh boy madness that has taken this party over. Rubbish. Unbelievable.

:40:17.:40:25.

You don't deserve to win. You took us to this crisis. The problem is

:40:26.:40:31.

with politicians going at each other like they are five-year-olds in

:40:32.:40:35.

school, frankly. Then we have this stigma around politics and young

:40:36.:40:40.

people my age will not go and vote because they see these politicians

:40:41.:40:44.

and are not inspired by them and do not believe in them, because they

:40:45.:40:49.

are going at each other. They have nothing to say apart from tiny

:40:50.:40:53.

little Dix, like Facebook videos of Theresa May, who can make the

:40:54.:41:00.

biggest dig at each other. I am personally inspired by Jeremy Corbyn

:41:01.:41:05.

because he is honest. Because he goes into Parliament in a suit which

:41:06.:41:12.

did not cost hundreds or thousands, and he did not claim that money. He

:41:13.:41:17.

did not claim that taxpayers money and he just tells the truth. And I

:41:18.:41:22.

think he is truly inspiring. And for you to have a dig at him... I am not

:41:23.:41:29.

having a dig at him. I actually think Jeremy, I agree with Quentin,

:41:30.:41:34.

I think he has a lot of qualities. What I find extraordinary, and what

:41:35.:41:38.

you are seeing tonight, I think Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party is

:41:39.:41:42.

not necessarily the problem. I desperately want the Labour Party to

:41:43.:41:45.

win a general election. The problem is that there are elements within

:41:46.:41:50.

the Labour Party who actually don't, because they want the Labour

:41:51.:41:54.

Party... That is not true. That is just not true. Can I just say

:41:55.:42:02.

something? In the first part of the programme we debated Grammar schools

:42:03.:42:06.

and I think we had a good debate. Nobody was personal, nobody was try

:42:07.:42:10.

to make a cheap political point and it was a genuine debate. So forgive

:42:11.:42:14.

me, I think you are wrong when you say politicians do not have rigorous

:42:15.:42:18.

debate. Secondly, the idea that my colleagues where thousands of pounds

:42:19.:42:22.

worth of suits, I don't know where you got that from. Doesn't Jeremy

:42:23.:42:32.

have the smallest expenses? I think you are missing the main point. You

:42:33.:42:36.

started this whole debate and you went at John. You started it.

:42:37.:42:45.

APPLAUSE. I will vote for that man because

:42:46.:42:50.

this man I blame, not Jeremy Corbyn. That is abuse I don't tolerate. What

:42:51.:42:54.

is interesting now is that we've got the largest political party in the

:42:55.:42:58.

whole of Europe and it's as a result of who, large numbers of young

:42:59.:43:01.

people coming into politics. That's good. Inspired. That was translating

:43:02.:43:09.

into electoral successes until this happened three months ago. We will

:43:10.:43:13.

come back together, we will unite because we agree on the policies,

:43:14.:43:18.

whoever is the leader will unite behind with discipline and we'll

:43:19.:43:21.

start winning elections. APPLAUSE.

:43:22.:43:30.

Alastair Campbell, one thing, why do you seem to have it in for John

:43:31.:43:35.

McDonnell but not Jeremy Corbyn? I don't. While I was sitting here,

:43:36.:43:39.

trying to do my best to be constructive about how the Labour

:43:40.:43:43.

Party might go forward... Oh, come on... He suddenly goes on about

:43:44.:43:48.

losing five million votes and how we are the problem. I don't have it in

:43:49.:43:52.

for him at all. Can I just say one thing. Ordinary member...

:43:53.:44:00.

85 out of 89 polls prior to the so-called coup, we were behind. In

:44:01.:44:04.

the other four, we were neck and neck, so he's just not telling the

:44:05.:44:08.

truth about this. I think viewers can decide for themselves who's got

:44:09.:44:11.

it in for whom as a result of watching this. But I want to go on

:44:12.:44:15.

to another question. I'll take a point from you madam in the middle?

:44:16.:44:20.

Jeremy Corbyn is a very nice chap, but honestly Mr McDonnell do you

:44:21.:44:23.

really think he can lead the party... Yes, he can he's a new type

:44:24.:44:28.

of leader, the sort of leader that we now need, someone who's

:44:29.:44:33.

completely honest as was said, no spin, no triang layings, has been

:44:34.:44:37.

able to unite the party on the policies because there is no

:44:38.:44:40.

difference on policies and I think he's the type of leader that people

:44:41.:44:44.

will respect. We have had enough of these big leaders.

:44:45.:44:49.

APPLAUSE. Go on, then? One point from you, in

:44:50.:44:52.

the grade suit? Alastair Campbell's hit the nail on the head, the point

:44:53.:44:57.

is, he designed New Labour, they got elected, all right it was a

:44:58.:45:02.

disaster, but they got elected. Excuse me! So you win three times.

:45:03.:45:14.

This is your opposition. You want us to elect a disastrous... I'm old

:45:15.:45:18.

enough to remember the dark ages of the Labour Party in the early 80s

:45:19.:45:21.

which the young people don't remember. That's where we are going.

:45:22.:45:27.

As for the SNP being a credible opposition, let us remind ourselves,

:45:28.:45:33.

they've got 56 seats with 1.4 million votes and a system that I

:45:34.:45:36.

allows that is something that needs to be changed.

:45:37.:45:41.

APPLAUSE. We need to move on.

:45:42.:45:48.

I'd like to come back on that. What do you want to come back on? The

:45:49.:45:51.

gentleman's point in the audience. Which point? The point that's just

:45:52.:45:56.

been made. What about the SNP? The SNP Government in Scotland has the

:45:57.:46:00.

highest popular mandate of any Government in Western Europe. This

:46:01.:46:04.

lot with their in-fighting, their dividedness, are never going to

:46:05.:46:06.

achieve anything like that. You are a product of the system, nothing

:46:07.:46:13.

more. Sue Allenby, please, come to the rescue! Why can't we leave the

:46:14.:46:19.

European Union now? Why can't we leave the European Union now? We

:46:20.:46:24.

voted for it, we should leave. Quentin Letts? I would just say we

:46:25.:46:29.

have all got to go and have supper afterwards so it will be very

:46:30.:46:35.

interesting, the people with the inform-fighting, the public have

:46:36.:46:39.

spoken. The people voted to come out. That was in June. We haven't

:46:40.:46:44.

even had anything from Whitehall so... 17.5 million people voted for

:46:45.:46:50.

Brexit, I think 13.5 voted for Tony Blair in 97 so that gives you the

:46:51.:46:54.

scale of the vote, it's a big mandate there and the people are

:46:55.:46:58.

impatient. I think that they're right to be impatient. I don't think

:46:59.:47:02.

it can happen immediately because you want to try to negotiate some

:47:03.:47:06.

sort of trade relationship with the EU. It might happen, it might not,

:47:07.:47:11.

we might come out of the single markets, we might stay in it under

:47:12.:47:14.

certain terms, I don't know, but it's right to give the politicians a

:47:15.:47:18.

bit of a chance to come up with a deal. But I have no doubt that the

:47:19.:47:23.

article 50 is going to be buttoned some time next year and I think we

:47:24.:47:27.

are going to be sailing out of the EU and hallelujah, I'm very glad

:47:28.:47:30.

about that. People get cross with Theresa May for not telling us every

:47:31.:47:36.

moment what is going on. I think that is a little unrealistic. I

:47:37.:47:40.

think if you are going to be a good poker or perhaps a good bridge

:47:41.:47:44.

player in Salisbury, I think APPLAUSE.

:47:45.:47:52.

Was that terribly prejudice? ! I think the message is going to get

:47:53.:47:58.

into Brussels' head despite the resistance there, that the British

:47:59.:48:04.

people are very clear on the issue of freedom of movement and I don't

:48:05.:48:07.

think that that will be accepted by our politicians. Lastly, the

:48:08.:48:21.

attitude in Brussels at the moment there's lots of rumpy-pumpy going on

:48:22.:48:26.

and that will be more realistic. Now who is being parochial? ! Sue

:48:27.:48:34.

Allenby, what is your concern about this, you say the vote happened in

:48:35.:48:39.

June? Voted in June, no information's filtered out. There

:48:40.:48:42.

are 17.5 million people wondering what is going to happen and why it

:48:43.:48:48.

can't happen sooner than later and we hear from Theresa May that it may

:48:49.:48:53.

not happen for a long time. But nobody knows why exactly. And do you

:48:54.:48:57.

think there may be some backtracking going on, deliberately? Who knows.

:48:58.:49:02.

Or do you think they are trying to work things out? What about you?

:49:03.:49:14.

Brexit is like something out of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, it

:49:15.:49:17.

means whatever people want it to mean, it's just a word and for some

:49:18.:49:21.

it means staying in Europe having trade agreements, for some it means

:49:22.:49:25.

copping out and there are various flavours in-between. Until that's

:49:26.:49:29.

decided, we are stuck with this vagueness which will carry on and I

:49:30.:49:33.

suspect we'll never leave and I hope we don't. We should stay in.

:49:34.:49:38.

APPLAUSE. Joanna Cherry?

:49:39.:49:48.

You were applauding him, do you agree that we should never leave?

:49:49.:49:53.

The electorate I represent voted to stay in. Every local authority

:49:54.:49:57.

region in Scotland voted to remain so my duty as an SNP MP is to try to

:49:58.:50:03.

get the best possible deal for Scotland, recognising Scotland voted

:50:04.:50:06.

to remain. To answer the lady's question, the reason we can't leave

:50:07.:50:09.

the European Union now is because the leave campaign sold you a pup.

:50:10.:50:14.

It's not easy to leave the European Union. In order to start the process

:50:15.:50:18.

of leaving the European Union, we have to trigger article 50. Before

:50:19.:50:21.

we do that, we have to have some sort of a plan. The Government has

:50:22.:50:25.

no plan, the leave campaign admitted the day after they won the vote that

:50:26.:50:28.

they had no plan. Theresa May doesn't know what Brexit means. As I

:50:29.:50:33.

said earlier, she can't tell you whether it involves staying in the

:50:34.:50:37.

single market, keeping passporting for our vital financial sectors in

:50:38.:50:40.

London and whether it will mean that we'll all have to pay to go abroad

:50:41.:50:45.

on our holidays, she's not able to answer those questions. She says

:50:46.:50:51.

Brexit means Brexit doesn't she. Quentin tried to lead you up the

:50:52.:50:55.

garden path by being rude, making you think that Brexit is easy, they

:50:56.:50:59.

are telling you a pack of lies. APPLAUSE.

:51:00.:51:06.

Don't just take it from me. Look at the case of Greenland. Greenland has

:51:07.:51:12.

a population the size of Croydon. No disrespect to Greenland because the

:51:13.:51:15.

fishing industry is very important in my country as well. The only

:51:16.:51:20.

important industry in Greenland is fishing, a population the size of

:51:21.:51:23.

Croydon, it took Greenland three years to leave the European Union.

:51:24.:51:27.

It took us nine years to negotiate the current trade deal we are

:51:28.:51:31.

negotiating with Canada and it's still not been finalised. Nicola

:51:32.:51:35.

Sturgeon said in a speech yesterday that in evidence to a committee for

:51:36.:51:39.

the Scottish Parliament that this Brexit vote could lead to a decade

:51:40.:51:43.

of uncertainty. Your Government is not being honest with you. They are

:51:44.:51:46.

not able to tell you what Brexit means and they don't have a plan.

:51:47.:51:51.

These people in Brussels that Quentin so deprecates, they have all

:51:52.:51:55.

their negotiators in place, they are organised and ready to go, they want

:51:56.:51:57.

Britain at the negotiating table, Britain can't come to the

:51:58.:52:00.

negotiating table because Theresa May doesn't have a plan, the leave

:52:01.:52:05.

campaign don't have a plan and you were sold a puck by the campaign.

:52:06.:52:15.

APPLAUSE. Joanna, are you therefore concluding

:52:16.:52:18.

it's not going to happen? Very brief because you have had a long say,

:52:19.:52:21.

just yes or no? I think it's going to be difficult. I'm a democrat and

:52:22.:52:25.

respect the fact that the people of England and Wales voted to leave the

:52:26.:52:27.

European Union. Yes or no is it going to happen? I can't answer that

:52:28.:52:32.

question. Anna Soubry? Is it going to happen? The thing is, we have

:52:33.:52:36.

said, or I've said for example that obviously I accept the vote and the

:52:37.:52:40.

people have spoken and, during the whole of the campaign when people

:52:41.:52:44.

like ourselves and Alastair and Joanna, they were trying to persuade

:52:45.:52:46.

people to vote to stay in the European Union. We made it clear

:52:47.:52:50.

that if we voted to come out, that is what we'd get, that we'd leave.

:52:51.:52:55.

Joanna, I agree with what she says when she says that the trouble is,

:52:56.:52:59.

this is fiendishly appallingly complicated. It is not as simple as

:53:00.:53:05.

just walking away from it, even invoking article 50, you've got to

:53:06.:53:08.

lay the ground work. There are other problems as well. We have elections

:53:09.:53:12.

in Germany and elections in France and indeed in other countries in the

:53:13.:53:18.

EU. That also will play a huge part because obviously Merkel will be

:53:19.:53:22.

wanting to sort out matters in her own country. Frankly, the idea that

:53:23.:53:25.

we are going to be top of her wish list is just the stuff of the

:53:26.:53:30.

fairies. So it is going to take time, it's going to take effort and

:53:31.:53:35.

what I do believe we now need is, I don't believe we want the running

:53:36.:53:38.

commentary, as Theresa May's rightly said. But I do think we need a plan.

:53:39.:53:45.

Most importantly, those people that led the leave campaign who sit in

:53:46.:53:49.

some of the highest offices now of Government, people like Boris

:53:50.:53:53.

Johnson, people who persuaded the people across the United Kingdom to

:53:54.:53:56.

vote to leave the EU, they must be held to account.

:53:57.:53:59.

They must deliver. APPLAUSE.

:54:00.:54:05.

All right. What about holding to account the people who said remain

:54:06.:54:09.

on the grounds that if we voted to leave there'll be a DIY recession

:54:10.:54:14.

which there doesn't seem to be? We haven't left yet. They said the

:54:15.:54:19.

economy would collapse. They said it as soon as the vote happened. We

:54:20.:54:22.

didn't say that actually. Alastair Campbell? We haven't had an

:54:23.:54:26.

emergency budget? David you are right on that and that shouldn't

:54:27.:54:30.

have been said but please, I'm delighted when we have... But you...

:54:31.:54:34.

This is important, we haven't left but we have had good figures but we

:54:35.:54:39.

must not kid ourselves that, as we move into an increasing period of

:54:40.:54:43.

uncertainty, we are apparently going to trigger article 50 early next

:54:44.:54:48.

year, then I fear that we'll enter periods of great economic concern. A

:54:49.:54:53.

couple of minutes. Alastair Campbell and John McDonnell? It's so

:54:54.:54:58.

complicated this. What was awful about that dismal dreadful

:54:59.:55:03.

campaign... Which one was that? Vote leave on Thursday and by Friday

:55:04.:55:07.

we'll have ?50 million going to the National Health Service, it's

:55:08.:55:12.

dismal. It was a lie. You've now got to go through interlocking

:55:13.:55:16.

negotiations covering how do we leave, our Free Trade Agreement with

:55:17.:55:19.

the rest of Europe, interim cover while that's going on, how we enter

:55:20.:55:24.

the WTO, the World Trade Organisation as the UK not the EU,

:55:25.:55:30.

54 3 free trade arrangements that we have to make with individual

:55:31.:55:34.

countries where now we have them with Europe and an arrangement on

:55:35.:55:37.

foreign defence and arrangement policy. Canada's got 300 full-time

:55:38.:55:43.

trade negotiators. David Davis stood up in the House of Commons the other

:55:44.:55:48.

day and said proudly, we are going to have 180 civil servants working

:55:49.:55:52.

on this. It's pathetic, there wasn't a plan A and that's why there isn't

:55:53.:55:55.

a Plan B and they are making it up as they go along.

:55:56.:56:02.

OK. Only 30 seconds left now. John McDonnell, what about Owen Smith's

:56:03.:56:06.

idea that Labour could reapply to join the EU in the election, is that

:56:07.:56:09.

on the cards? No, we have had a referendum. As much as I regret it,

:56:10.:56:14.

we have to respect the decision and we have to very quickly now create a

:56:15.:56:17.

new relationship with Europe. We need to get on with that. The point

:56:18.:56:22.

that's been made is, we might not have had the recession hit us

:56:23.:56:26.

immediately but investment decisions are being made now which will start

:56:27.:56:30.

hitting us next year, right the way across the economy. That uncertainty

:56:31.:56:33.

is impacting the economy already and it will hit us even harder so we've

:56:34.:56:36.

got to get into the negotiations fast, make sure we secure access to

:56:37.:56:41.

the market, we protect EU citizens here and UK citizens in Europe as

:56:42.:56:45.

well. We have got to try and get the financial services passport as well

:56:46.:56:49.

and we need to protect the employment and environmental

:56:50.:56:51.

regulations. That's the red lines that Labour have set out. Actually,

:56:52.:56:56.

we are meeting on a regular basis now and the socialist and Democratic

:56:57.:57:01.

Parties across Europe to try to get the best deal we possibly can. We

:57:02.:57:05.

have to respect a decision but we've got to get new certainty that a new

:57:06.:57:08.

Europe that I think will take some of the benefits of the EI and

:57:09.:57:14.

overcome some of the perceived disbenefits of the EU that motivated

:57:15.:57:19.

people to leave. One last word from the woman there? Part of the EU is

:57:20.:57:26.

considered being European because Switzerland, they are not part of

:57:27.:57:30.

the EU, they have a thriving economy, but you would call them

:57:31.:57:34.

European, so I don't understand why MPs and members of the public are

:57:35.:57:38.

saying, oh, because we are going to leave the EU, we are no longer going

:57:39.:57:42.

to be European if we are going to cut ties. Are you happy about the

:57:43.:57:46.

way things are going yourself? I mean, being a 16-year-old when the

:57:47.:57:49.

vote happened I could haven't my voice heard. Now you have it heard?

:57:50.:57:54.

Now I am, yes, but it was quite frustrating. We wanted you to have

:57:55.:57:58.

your voice heard. We voted for you to have your vote. We must stop. But

:57:59.:58:03.

do you feel happen pay with the way things are going -- happy? I'm

:58:04.:58:07.

probably one of the few youngsters that would have voted leave. You

:58:08.:58:10.

should be on the panel! APPLAUSE.

:58:11.:58:18.

I don't know whether there's an age limit for the panel, I don't think

:58:19.:58:23.

there is. The country voted for Brexit and I'm

:58:24.:58:28.

the only Brexiteer. It's the end of the programme, I'm

:58:29.:58:32.

afraid. We are in Sutton Coldfield next week. The week after that, we

:58:33.:58:40.

are in Boston in Lincolnshire. There is the address on the screen. You

:58:41.:58:48.

can call us or go on the website. My thanks to this panel here and all of

:58:49.:58:53.

you who came to Salisbury to take part in this edition of Question

:58:54.:58:58.

Time. Until next Thursday, from all of us here, good night.

:58:59.:59:00.

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