Browse content similar to 15/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Tonight we're in Salisbury, and this is Question Time. | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
Welcome to you, and to our panel tonight. | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
Conservative former Business Minister Anna Soubry. | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
and Jeremy Corbyn's close ally, John McDonnell. | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
The SNP's justice spokesperson at Westminster, Joanna Cherry. | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
The Daily Mail theatre critic and Parliamentary sketch writer | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
And Tony Blair's former Director of Communications, | :00:32. | :00:45. | |
Before we take our first question, | :00:46. | :00:57. | |
don't forget Facebook, Twitter, or text 83981 to comment | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
Our first question from Martyn Ball, please. Our grammar school was the | :01:03. | :01:24. | |
answer to our education mess? Anna Soubry? I am not sure I would | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
describe it as a mess. It is right that there are 1.25 and children | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
either in poor schools, or schools that need to improve, but I think it | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
is right to have a debate and it is right that we should look at new | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
options. In many ways, what the Government is putting forward is | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
something new, which is that existing grammar schools might be | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
able to effectively have satellite schools in neighbouring areas. I | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
will be very frank with you. In my constituency we have four secondary | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
schools. I don't think we even need or want a grammar school. One of my | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
schools is an outstanding academy that has benefited from the Academy | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
programme of the last coalition government, and I am a firm believer | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
in continuing with the Academy programme. But I think it's right we | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
have a debate about it. But I take the view that grammar schools are | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
not the silver bullet that I think some people think they are. But when | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
I look at my neighbouring city of Nottingham, and we have had decades | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
of bad Labour rule and poor schools, I want to know what the solutions | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
are going to be to make sure that every child, wherever they are, | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
whatever their background, that they all have the great school that every | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
child needs and deserves. That is the task. Will you vote against when | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
it comes to it? I don't go have a problem with... Take Lincolnshire, | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
which has the 11 plus. If there is a need, in a town like Newark, which | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
borders Lincolnshire, where we know there are parents who choose to put | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
their children into grammar schools in Lincolnshire, if they have a | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
satellite school there and it is seen to be a good thing to raise | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
what has been a problem in that town with its existing school, I wouldn't | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
have an ideological opposition to that. I would struggle if we said | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
that the solution in a city like Nottingham is to have grammar | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
schools. I look at what has happened in London and we have achieved huge | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
success in London by building up the Academy programme, by having great, | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
brilliant teachers, by putting aspiration into our schools. That, I | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
believe, is the real solution to making sure every child has a great | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
school. And not the grammar school as an absolute guarantee. I don't | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
think it's an absolute, and we certainly don't want to go back to | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
the system which existed when I was young, a long time ago. I took the | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
11 plus and passed. Lots of people failed and they bore that for the | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
rest of their lives, and that was wrong. | :03:52. | :03:51. | |
APPLAUSE I think that was a very heroic | :03:52. | :04:03. | |
effort by Anna Soubry to pretend that actually she thinks this is | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
anything other than a pretty silly policy. And she is absolutely right | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
and that is the indication she gave in the House of Commons. If you | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
watched the end of this programme last week it was announced that | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
Justine Greening was going to be on the panel. Although Twitter has said | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
I have come on to have a Barney with John McDonnell, I was hoping to have | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
a Barney with Justine Greening about this ridiculous policy. The reason | :04:27. | :04:36. | |
why... I honestly don't know why Theresa May is doing this. She has | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
no mandate for it. David Cameron was absolutely clear that he thought | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
this was a red great step. If you look at the countries that have the | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
best educated children, around the world there are three that come up | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
again and again. Finland, South Korea and the other one is... Never | :04:58. | :05:06. | |
save three! Finland, South Korea and Canada. And they have the most | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
components of systems. They understand that comprehensive means | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
all-inclusive. The point about selection, Theresa May is trying to | :05:20. | :05:21. | |
give the impression that everybody will be selected to go to a grammar | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
school. Selection means rejection. And the rejection that Anna Soubry | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
talked about, and I went to two grammar schools, and the rejection, | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
I think, does give people a sense of stigma that can stay with them | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
through their lives. This country has suffered for too long by having | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
an elitist approach to education. And we should finally give proper | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
comprehensive education a real go. APPLAUSE | :05:51. | :06:02. | |
I don't agree with Alistair. I don't think we have had an elitist | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
approach to education for a long time. And I can't see what is wrong | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
with selection. OK, that brings rejection, but we are a country of X | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
Factor and Britain's Got Talent. People are comfortable with the idea | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
of children advancing on merit. I can understand why a Labour are | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
uneasy about grammar schools, because if you have been brought up | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
doing Latin prep and start into a tight blazer you are less likely to | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
be a socialist. I don't know what they tight little blazer as to do | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
with being a socialist. That is what he wore. That is what I am still | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
wearing. But what I cannot understand is people in the centre | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
and certain people in the Conservative Party who are opposed | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
to grammar schools, because it strikes me they are about | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
aspiration, excellence, opportunity and about... Let me finish. And | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
about competition. And I think competition is very important. The | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
question was whether grammars are the answer to our schools mess. I | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
don't think that is even close to what is being proposed because there | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
are so many other types of school and they will continue. But if | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
people want grammars, if parents want grammars and if teachers want | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
to teach in grammars, let it happen. I am in favour of that, because it | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
strikes me as common sense, children, if they are in a class | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
with their own ability, are likely to hit off each other and do better | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
as a result. And I can't see why we can have selection on merit in | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
music, we can have it in games, why can't we have it with academic | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
excellence? There are a lot of hands up so let's hear from our audience. | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
The woman in red. I was just wondering, with regard to the towns | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
and cities that do not have grammar schools, the schools that are there | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
and not necessarily doing as well, why aren't we putting more money and | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
investing in those schools to support the children that have | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
learning difficulties, disabilities, mental health problems? | :08:10. | :08:10. | |
APPLAUSE That's exact the what we're doing. | :08:11. | :08:20. | |
The man with spectacles. The competition on the X Factor is for | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
entertainment, and 90% of that in the early stages is about | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
humiliation. And I think selection of 11-year-olds to take the cream | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
off the top, as the elites would put it, I think it is a scandal and the | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
debate should end right now. APPLAUSE | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
Two voices against, any in favour of more grammar schools? Yes, I am in | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
favour of grammar schools. I was going to the man behind. There is | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
competition here! Firstly, I went to a grammar school sixth form myself. | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
I think we need to remember that Theresa May's proposals are not just | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
saying there will be 111 plus and if you fail you have no chance of going | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
to a grammar school. There will be 12, 13 plus, so there is going to be | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
a bit of time, if someone does not pass their 11 plus. They can try | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
again the next year. I think it really does foster this idea of | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
aspiration. That is part of the reason why I managed to get into the | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
grammar school sixth form nearby. I just want to quickly go to a point | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
Alistair made about the divisions in our education system today. If we | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
are going to be talking about a lack of fairness in our education system | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
and rejection, why can't we talk about private schools and the role | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
they have? I agree with that. John McDonnell. Watch my lips. I agree | :09:52. | :10:05. | |
with Alastair Campbell 100%.! What, that new Labour was a great success? | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
He is at it again with spin, isn't he? New Labour never abolished the | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
grammar schools, did they? We prevented the extension of any new | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
ones. And actually, I frankly wish that we had. But that is a very | :10:22. | :10:28. | |
difficult opinion to hold at that time. Tony Blair took a judgment | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
that it wasn't worth the political aggravation we would have, but I | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
think we should have dealt with this once and for all. Outlawed | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
selection? Yes. All of the evidenced in straits that grammar schools will | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
benefit a limited few but will not benefit others and do not raise | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
standards overall. That is not just me talking. That is why David | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
Cameron opposed it, as Alistair said, that is what he said it was | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
taking us back to the 1950s. The head of Ofsted, the very person | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
appointed by the government to look at social mode to, the Institute for | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
education, all those international comparisons. This is the wrong way | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
to go. The right way to go is to recognise we have problems in our | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
education system, partly about underinvestment. Class sizes are | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
rising on a large scale. In addition, we have lost in this last | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
year or so the largest number of teachers from this profession that | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
we have lost in a generation, largely because of the intense | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
pressure they are under on a teaching to the test system we have. | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
If you look at where we have succeeded in the past in raising | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
standards, yes, look at what happened under Tony Blair, | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
education, education, education, under London challenge, where we had | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
some of the worst schools in the country. We put in resources, made | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
sure we brought in the best teachers possible, and now we have the best | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
schools in the country. And this isn't, as well, about rich and poor | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
areas. Some of the best schools in London, as a result of that | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
investment, are in the poorest boroughs. That is the way forward, | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
that is the way about investment and respecting the professionals within | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
the field itself. This is really dangerous, but I agree with John | :12:14. | :12:15. | |
McDonnell. APPLAUSE | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
Joanna Cherry, as an SNP MP you do not really have a dog in the fight | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
when it comes to it because this is about England, not Scotland. Yes, | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
David. Education is devolved. We will have to look carefully at any | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
proposals brought forward by the Conservative government at | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
Westminster to see whether they have financial implications for Scotland. | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
But we do not believe grammar schools are the answer to the | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
challenges of the education system. The challenge to the education | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
system in a democracy should be to give every child the best chance | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
possible of having a good education. It is natural for parents to want to | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
do the best possible for their own children, but the government has to | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
do the best possible for all children. And all the evidence shows | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
that children from low income families do worse in selective | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
systems. Kent has a selective system. Evidence shows that in Kent, | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
children from low income families are not doing as well as other | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
children. Theresa May, when she came to power, made a song and dance | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
about how she wants to represent working-class families. But in | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
relation to this policy which she has pulled out of a hat, the reality | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
does not match her rhetoric. Every country faces challenges with | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
education. We face a challenge in Scotland and Nicola Sturgeon has put | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
closing the attainment gap at the heart of our programme for | :13:39. | :13:40. | |
government. But the way we are doing that is to invest in all children. | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
We have doubled early life care, so there is double the amount of time | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
available for three-year olds and four-year-olds in preschool care, we | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
are investing ?700 million across the schools sector in all schools to | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
improve standards, and we are tackling the underlying social | :13:58. | :13:59. | |
inequality that means some children do not do as well as others by | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
tackling child poverty in the child poverty Bill. That is the way | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
forward, that every child gets the same chance. Does your experience in | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
Scotland in title due to vote on England and English education and | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
grammar schools in England? As I have said, we are at an early stage. | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
I have asked a direct question. You have talked about the proposals. Do | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
you think the SNP has a dog in the fight, or should it stand back and | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
say this is a matter for England? I can't answer whether the SNP has a | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
dog in the fight until I see the legislation. It will not affect | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
Scotland. Fit has implications for the Scottish budget, we will vote on | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
it but we have to see the legislation before we make a | :14:46. | :14:46. | |
decision. Let's hear from some members of the | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
audience, you in the striped shirt, please? I went to the local grammar | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
school after failing the 11 plus and 12 plus and finally passing the 13 | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
plus and all through that period of time at 11, I felt like I was | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
useless, didn't deserve an education, that was kind of higher | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
than everyone else because there's only one grammar school in the whole | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
area so it's kind of amplified anyway. You know, I think with a | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
crisis in young people's mental health anyway, why are we putting | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
that pressure on 11-year-olds when we could be putting more money into | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
fantastic comprehensives? ! APPLAUSE. | :15:29. | :15:38. | |
How did you feel at 13? I felt like, when I look at it | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
retrospectively, it was ridiculous, I felt that I finally got somewhere | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
that I finally deserved to be and once I got to university and was | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
surrounded by kids from public school, I realised, oh, actually | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
maybe we are all in the same place and there are plenty of wonderful | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
kids here who had comprehensive school education and I was obsessed | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
with something because of the surroundings that I was expected to | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
do. The woman in the second row? | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
I went to a grammar school. I don't feel it did me any better or worse | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
than any other school. There are a lot of children at that time that | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
came from all different social classes and backgrounds and they all | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
did equally as well. My concern with grammars at the moment is that a lot | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
of parents are paying for their children to have specific training | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
for this test and they are only passing because they've been given | :16:34. | :16:35. | |
specific training to get through the 11 plus. These children can get to | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
grammar school and then find Thirlwall out of their depth. | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
A brief point? These stories which are very interesting show surely | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
that those tremendous appetites for grammars, there is pressure on | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
grammar places, people want their children in them. Does that not come | :16:53. | :16:59. | |
out of these stories? They are tremendous equalisers of | :17:00. | :17:01. | |
opportunity. Social mobility is going the wrong way at the moment. | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
The grammar school system's not helped social mobility and I believe | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
very firmly that grammars could open up opportunities to kids from poor | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
backgrounds who've got the brainpower. It must be right. But 3% | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
of grammar school pupils have free school meals, 3% compared to 15 in | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
the States. Grammar schools could be dog that now, they don't. Kent and | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
Buckinghamshire, for example, huge counties. The attainment gap in Ken | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
and Buckinghamshire is twice as big as in Hackney which is one of the | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
poorest communities, as John said. You at the back there. We must keep | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
moving because we have a lot of questions. I seem to be the only | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
person in the room that went to a secondary school and failed the | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
11-plus and I'm proud that I did it. I felt that if I'd gone to a grammar | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
school at the time, I wouldn't have fitted in, that the education that I | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
got in the secondary school was just right for me. I was at the top of | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
the secondary school so I felt really good. It was a bit | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
patronising from one of the members to say, they had that for the rest | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
of their lives. Some do. Many did. Lots don't and every person is | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
different. If you are academically inclined, then you need a school | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
that can cater to that. If you are not academic, you need a school to | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
cater that as well. A lot of hands up, we can't obviously do the whole | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
programme on grammar schools, interesting as it would be, but | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
hands up in the audience for those who'd like to see in principle, more | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
grammar schools, and then I'll ask for those who don't, and how many | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
would not like to see more? That's a two to one. OK. Thank you very much. | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
We'll go on to another question, but before we do, we are in Sutton | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
Coldfield in Birmingham next week and Boston in Lincolnshire the week | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
after that. Come and join us. Go to the website address or you can phone | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
you will. Details at the end. Let's have another question from Olivia | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
Parsons, please? With the Labour Party currently tearing Riths apart, | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
is the SNP the only credible opposition to the Government? -- | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
tearing itself apart. Alastair Campbell? The SNP is the Government | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
in Scotland and I think the way that the SNP became the Government has | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
lessons for the Labour Party. My real worry about the Labour Party at | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
the moment is that if we are not careful, we can go into frankly | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
oblivion. We have no divine right to exist. There were times, Joanna I | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
talked about this earlier, the Labour Party took Scotland for | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
granted for a long time, far too long and we paid a very, very heavy | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
price. And I fear that what's happening at the moment with the | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
Labour Party is that we are not reaching out beyond a fairly narrow | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
core. It's great that Jeremy and John and the rest of them have | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
brought in lots of new people into the party and there's a lot of | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
energy in there. But I worry that we are losing the things that you need | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
to do, both the policy agenda and the politics that actually allow you | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
to win general elections. What are you thinking of in particular? Into | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
politics has become, you are right about tearing itself apart and I | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
think that in a sense, I'm not saying there's only blame on Jeremy | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
Corbyn, but I do think this whole momentum thing has been incredibly | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
divisive. I think a lot of people in the Labour Party, who've been in the | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
Labour Party a long time, feel this is going back to a politics of the | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
1980s. There is a nastiness in the party which we haven't had since the | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
1980s and there's always been an element within the Labour Party that | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
prefers having power in the party to winning power in the country. You | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
need that. That's fine. But you can't have that as the driving force | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
in the party. Now, when I say this, and I guarantee now the Twitter | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
trolls will be straight in, he's obsessed with winning, he's a Tory, | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
I get it all the time. I'm obsessed with winning because unless we win, | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
the Tories can bring back grammar schools, unless we win, we wouldn't | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
have been able to have things like the minimum wage and Sure Start and | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
Steve luges to Scotland and peace in Northern Ireland and all the others | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
things that we did. You have to win power in this country. John talks | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
about build ago social movement. Social movements don't deliver the | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
things that a Labour Government did and a Labour Government in the | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
future can, so I do want the Labour Party to unite, but it has to unite | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
around something, a policy agenda an politics that we can actually go to | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
places like this. I can remember we went to Dorset south in 1997 not far | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
from here and the media said, this is just a stunt you coming to Dorset | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
south, you are never going to win this. We won it and held it. Not by | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
being hard left, not by saying, anybody who's a Tory is a bad | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
person. We are going to have to get Tories to volt for us, we are going | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
to have to get SNP people to vote for us, and a is how we win. And if | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
we don't understand that, and act according to that, I'm afraid I | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
worry genuinely that we are facing oblivion. | :22:45. | :22:53. | |
APPLAUSE. John McDonnell? We have to win. We | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
have to win. No-one's arguing that we don't have to win, we have to win | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
elections and we have to ensure that we have the broadest appeal. We have | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
to recognise the political times in which we are in. The reason Jeremy | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
Corbyn got elected leader is because he reflects a movement right across | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
Europe and America as well, people have been through the crash of 2008, | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
people have experienced the austerity over the years and wanted | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
something different. People who wanted a straightforward politics as | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
well without spin and triang layings. We had straightforward | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
policies. It was straightforward. Let me finish. Let me finish. I | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
think that's what people voted for when they eelected Jeremy to be | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
leader of the party. And at that point in time, we'd lost a general | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
election, we were between seven and ten points behind in the polls. What | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
then happen suicide that we won't every Parliamentary by-election and | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
increased our majorities, we won every mayoral election, we matched | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
Ed Miliband in the local council elections at his highest. So you | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
were on course to victory? Let me just... Hang on, these long lists... | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
Let me finish this point, overtaken the Conservatives in the polls so we | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
were laying the foundations, I believe, for electoral victory in | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
due course and were bringing together the party left, right and | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
centre. The Shadow Cabinet that Jeremy appointed was from left, | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
right and centre. What went wrong because you are now clearly not | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
leading the polls? Fair enough, fair enough. The lesson we have got to | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
learn very clearly is that people will not vote for a divided party. | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
What happened is that a group of unfortunately people within the | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
party weren't willing to accept Jeremy's mandate, they launched what | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
was effectively a coup and we have had a couple of months of absolute | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
distraction. I'm interested in one thing, do you think the country as a | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
whole has moved to the left? You make no bones about saying you are a | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
Marxist, your reaction to the capitalist. I'm a Marxist, I'm | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
honest with people, is that what the country wants from a Chancellor of | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
the Exchequer. I'm a socialist. Marxist is the words you used. Why | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
did you say I'm a Marxist? I was demonstrating a prediction of the | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
capitalist crisis at the time. I'm honest with people, you said, I'm a | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
Marxist. I was saying I was predicting what would be said in | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
terms of the economic crisis. You said, I'm a Marxist. Go on YouTube | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
and you can watch it. APPLAUSE. | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
And I'll tell you something else. I was predicting what was coming. You | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
are a very nasty piece of work and I shall tell you this as well, let me | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
tell you what's happened... Let me finish. Let me tell you what's | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
happening in Parliament, I don't agree with Labour MPs but there are | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
a number who're good and honourable. Decent people who believe in things | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
that I don't agree with. But they add value and they are elected, they | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
haven't formed a Government but they are there to do a job. The job they | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
are there to do is to hold my Government to account and to | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
represent those of you who're not Conservatives and make sure that | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
your voice is heard and democracy prevails. And many of these people | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
are frightened, so frightened, humiliated, almost terrorised by Mr | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
McDonnell and his gang, they will leave politics and that's bad for | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
politics. Absolute rubbish. And there is a final example of it, | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
ladies and gentlemen. You are being let down, as a democracy. We need | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
good, strong oppositions who're credible, who test Government, hold | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
them to account. APPLAUSE. | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
We are in the position of relying on the SNP to do the job of the | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
opposition. John McDonnell. It's shameful. You said he was a very | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
nasty piece of work. I think he is. You mange that, you need to justify | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
it if you have said that? There are colleagues of mine in the House of | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
Commons, Labour MPs, who are at the point of being terrorised by | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
McDonnell and his cronies. By who? They don't stand up to them. There | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
are women MPs who suffer day in and day out from misogynist unpleasant | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
sexist abuse on Twitter, Facebook, from people who apparently are | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
within their own party. There is a Jewish Labour MP, a woman, who is | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
living in a safe house because of the levels of anti-Semitism she has | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
to bear. It's a disgrace and it must stop and you, Sir, can stop it. | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
APPLAUSE. Alastair Campbell, do you... Sorry, | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
let me respond. Do you recognise that picture... I will let you. | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
You've not allowed me to spook. Let me make this absolute clear and we | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
have made it clear time and time again - we will not tolerate abuse | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
within the Labour Party, we've condemned it time and time again. | :28:06. | :28:07. | |
APPLAUSE. Every time there's been a level of | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
abuse that's been waged, Jeremy Corbyn's made it absolutely clear, | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
if we have identified the individual, they'll be out of this | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
party and suspended, simple as that. We are not accepting this smear | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
campaign that's going on from the Tories and others as well. We've | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
been working, over the last year, to unite the party, and we were winning | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
electorally and in the polls. Yes, a coup was launched by a small | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
minority who could not accept Jeremy's mandate. What we... We are | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
a small minority who could not accept the mandate. Jeremy was | :28:41. | :28:49. | |
elected on the basis of 59.5% of our members. We are now going through a | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
democratic election. Once that election is over, whoever is the | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
leader, whoever is the leader, we will unite behind. And we have been | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
effective opposition in terms of defeating the Tories on Tax Credits, | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
PIP, cuts for disabled people and a range of other things. What were you | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
saying at the back there? Who was shouting out about MPs? | :29:14. | :29:21. | |
It was 80% of MPs who had no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn. That | :29:22. | :29:30. | |
isn't what a minority. Alastair Campbell, do you recognise anything | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
of what Anna Soubry said in Labour? I said earlier, I will not get | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
personal, I said earlier I think there is a level of nasty nurse in | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
the Labour Party at the moment that is upsetting for a lot of people. -- | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
nasty nurse. It is not necessary and it is not nice. I think it is | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
because there are some elements of the old Har left to have frankly | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
always hated the Labour Party who now have a big voice within the | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
Labour Party. That is a fact and I think it will turn the public off | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
once they know that is going on. But I also want to say something about | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
what John said about how this has come about. Because these members of | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
the Shadow Cabinet who, I don't even see this as a coup. I see this as a | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
group of people who were trying to make something work and who decided | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
over time that this isn't working and it's not going to work. And I | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
look at what this government is doing. I look at something like | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
Brexit. OK, there has been a referendum. I was, as was Anna | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
Soubry, on the losing side, but I know and I still feel this is | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
potentially a disaster for the country, and I see no opposition. I | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
don't see the opposition with a strategy. We have a strategy. I | :30:44. | :30:54. | |
don't see it. And when John talks about, we have two Unite, yes, we | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
have to unite, but we have to be clear what we are uniting around. | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
What is interesting in the leadership debate is that there has | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
been virtually no difference on policy. The most common expression | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
used by Owen Smith is, I agree with Jeremy. So the issue is not around | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
policy. We have turned those arguments around. We are an | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
anti-austerities party, we have red lines in terms of the Brexit | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
campaign which is unanimously agreed, and we are campaigning. We | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
are distracted by a leadership election that should never have been | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
brought about. APPLAUSE | :31:34. | :31:34. | |
Joanna Cherry. The question was, is the SNP the only credible opposition | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
because Labour is tearing itself apart? I think you have the answer | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
to your question. We have seen Labour tearing itself apart on the | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
panel this evening. I don't care whether John is a Marxist or a | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
socialist, I don't care whether people are nasty to each other or | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
not. We are grown up and can cope with acrimony. What I care about is | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
whether or not the Labour Party is forming an effective opposition to | :32:07. | :32:08. | |
this Conservative government and it is patenting the clear they are not. | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
They are simply incapable of doing it. -- it is patenting the clear. | :32:13. | :32:20. | |
Earlier this summer, when we had the result of the European referendum | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
campaign the government were missing in action, but so were the official | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
opposition. The only person who had any sort of plan or strategy was the | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
SNP leader, the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon. You don't | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
have too agree with us but I think you can agree that she had a plan | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
and the strategy and she is carrying it through. Three months later we | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
still do not know what Theresa May's plan is. She says Brexit means | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
Brexit but has no idea what Brexit means. The official opposition | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
should be harrying government over that, cross examining them, holding | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
them to account for the shambles and lack of policy they have. Instead, | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
they are fighting amongst themselves like a bunch of student politicians. | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
Jeremy Corbyn doesn't even raised the issue of... If you would let me | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
speak, because you had a long time to speak earlier. Jeremy Corbyn | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
seems incapable of asking the Prime Minister about Brexit, the biggest | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
crisis facing the country at the moment. He does not want to bring it | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
up, I suspect, because he does not really believe in the European | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
Union. It is left to the leader of the SNP at Westminster, Angus | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
Robertson, to interrogate Theresa May repeatedly about what Brexit | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
means. Does it mean we will stay in the single market, will you need a | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
Visa to go on holiday to Spain or France? Does it mean that pas | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
sporting for financial services will be taken away, damaging the City of | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
London and the financial sector in the city of Edinburgh, which I | :33:51. | :33:53. | |
represent. She is not able to answer these questions but it is not Labour | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
are asking those questions, it is my party. I want to pick up on what | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
John said... I want to come to Quentin Letts. As you can see, it is | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
interesting in Parliament at the moment and to be a sketch writer is | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
bliss. In the House of Commons, the SNP at ten a lot. They talk a heck | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
of a lot but they are fairly parochial and they are not listened | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
to much, I don't think. That is very harsh. The Commons is more nuanced | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
than that. There is opposition on the Tory benches. In public life, | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
opposition comes from different quarters. Not just in Parliament | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
but, there I say it, from the BBC's sometimes, from the establishment | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
blob. There is opposition to the government and look at its | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
difficulty with the grammar schools proposal. It would be wrong to say | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
the SNP is the only opposition. I have a bit of a soft spot for Jeremy | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
Corbyn on a personal level. But there is this paradox in Labour. | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
Corbyn seems to be quite honest in some way 's. He has a certain | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
lascivious glint in his eye that I quite like. With his Steptoe | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
haircut, I think here's an interesting, likeable figure. But at | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
the same time, there is this Momentum lot who are unpleasant with | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
their views on Israel and the way they have been treating some MPs. I | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
would give a warning to John. I went this week to see a tale of two | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
would give a warning to John. I went cities, and that shows the French | :35:24. | :35:24. | |
Revolution, a fascinating production. But road spear, a leader | :35:25. | :35:32. | |
of the Revolution, came unstuck and got killed by his revolutionaries. | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
Let that be a lesson to you, my friend. If you get into that extreme | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
revolutionary behaviour, you get the reign of terror, and that is what I | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
think is going to happen. The reign of terror. I see it in front of me. | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
Who shall we go to? The man in the pale blue shirt. I think it is | :35:52. | :35:59. | |
indicative of the state the Labour Party is in when it takes a Tory MP | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
to defend Labour MPs from abuse from within their own party, and it takes | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
the SNP to argue against the Tory MP. It is a scandal that you have a | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
party so divided against itself and six to represent ordinary people by | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
doing the work it does. You have the point that Quentin Letts made, | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
Jeremy Corbyn went to an event for Labour friends of Israel and did not | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
mention Israel or Jews once. He stuck to his steel. | :36:28. | :36:37. | |
The Labour Party is moving towards being an organisation of protest, | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
not an organisation with the ability to pursue power and policies through | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
Parliament. You only need to look at the 80%. If you cannot lead, you | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
can't win and you can't achieve anything. The first line of our | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
constitution is that we exist to be a force in Parliament. This is why | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
the MPs are so important, the PLP is so important, and they are being | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
sidelined. Does Tony Blair bear the principal blame, over Iraq and other | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
things in his own private behaviour subsequently? Do you think that the | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
Blair years, your years, that this is what follows because of what they | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
were? I certainly don't put everything at the door of Jeremy | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
Corbyn. That would be really unfair. They're right issues going back to | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
when we were in power, Iraq being the most obvious in terms of policy, | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
but also tuition fees which were difficult for a lot of people. We | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
lost support, but don't forget we did win an election after Iraq. The | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
second thing I would say is that I think what Tony Blair always tried | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
to do was to understand that most people are not living in the | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
political bubble that we live in. I think he always had an understanding | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
of that and I think there is a danger at the moment that we are | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
losing that. I think we focus far too much on that Tony- Gordon thing | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
was very damaging. I think that led to a training of talent. We did not | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
bring on talent in the way we should and could have done. -- it led to a | :38:13. | :38:21. | |
training of talent. I think a lot of people feel Hacked Off with | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
inequality and they are looking for something very, very different. My | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
point is that they should not be looking for something that | :38:30. | :38:31. | |
different. Take the personalities out of it, do the sort of politics | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
that we tried to give to the country. Wait a minute, John. It is | :38:37. | :38:43. | |
a disaster for the Labour Party. Nauseating. Because you are the | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
person, above all else, who created a political environment where no one | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
believe a word a politician said. APPLAUSE | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
You lost 5 million votes in that process and set us up to fail. The | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
reason Jeremy was elected was because they wanted some honesty | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
back in politics again. Look, John, I have come on here tonight to be as | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
nice to you as I possibly can. The feeling is mutual. I will tell you | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
why, because I care about the Labour Party. I really care about the | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
Labour Party and I worry that you and yours are destroying it. And | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
what's more, I actually worry that you don't even care. You took us to | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
the edge and we are trying to restore honesty and confidence in | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
politics that you destroyed. It is just unbelievable. It is | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
unbelievable that we win three general elections, do things like | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
the minimum wage, and all he wants to do... Which we supported. And you | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
took us to Iraq. I understand why newspapers like the Daily Mail wants | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
to trash Tony Blair, because we won elections and they are a right wing | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
paper. I understand why the Tories want to trash new Labour, because we | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
beat them three times. But when the Labour Party is doing it, it is | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
utterly ridiculous and it is part of, I am afraid, the revolutionary | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
posh boy madness that has taken this party over. Rubbish. Unbelievable. | :40:17. | :40:25. | |
You don't deserve to win. You took us to this crisis. The problem is | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
with politicians going at each other like they are five-year-olds in | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
school, frankly. Then we have this stigma around politics and young | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
people my age will not go and vote because they see these politicians | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
and are not inspired by them and do not believe in them, because they | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
are going at each other. They have nothing to say apart from tiny | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
little Dix, like Facebook videos of Theresa May, who can make the | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
biggest dig at each other. I am personally inspired by Jeremy Corbyn | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
because he is honest. Because he goes into Parliament in a suit which | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
did not cost hundreds or thousands, and he did not claim that money. He | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
did not claim that taxpayers money and he just tells the truth. And I | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
think he is truly inspiring. And for you to have a dig at him... I am not | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
having a dig at him. I actually think Jeremy, I agree with Quentin, | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
I think he has a lot of qualities. What I find extraordinary, and what | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
you are seeing tonight, I think Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour Party is | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
not necessarily the problem. I desperately want the Labour Party to | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
win a general election. The problem is that there are elements within | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
the Labour Party who actually don't, because they want the Labour | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
Party... That is not true. That is just not true. Can I just say | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
something? In the first part of the programme we debated Grammar schools | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
and I think we had a good debate. Nobody was personal, nobody was try | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
to make a cheap political point and it was a genuine debate. So forgive | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
me, I think you are wrong when you say politicians do not have rigorous | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
debate. Secondly, the idea that my colleagues where thousands of pounds | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
worth of suits, I don't know where you got that from. Doesn't Jeremy | :42:23. | :42:32. | |
have the smallest expenses? I think you are missing the main point. You | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
started this whole debate and you went at John. You started it. | :42:37. | :42:45. | |
APPLAUSE. I will vote for that man because | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
this man I blame, not Jeremy Corbyn. That is abuse I don't tolerate. What | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
is interesting now is that we've got the largest political party in the | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
whole of Europe and it's as a result of who, large numbers of young | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
people coming into politics. That's good. Inspired. That was translating | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
into electoral successes until this happened three months ago. We will | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
come back together, we will unite because we agree on the policies, | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
whoever is the leader will unite behind with discipline and we'll | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
start winning elections. APPLAUSE. | :43:22. | :43:30. | |
Alastair Campbell, one thing, why do you seem to have it in for John | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
McDonnell but not Jeremy Corbyn? I don't. While I was sitting here, | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
trying to do my best to be constructive about how the Labour | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
Party might go forward... Oh, come on... He suddenly goes on about | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
losing five million votes and how we are the problem. I don't have it in | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
for him at all. Can I just say one thing. Ordinary member... | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
85 out of 89 polls prior to the so-called coup, we were behind. In | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
the other four, we were neck and neck, so he's just not telling the | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
truth about this. I think viewers can decide for themselves who's got | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
it in for whom as a result of watching this. But I want to go on | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
to another question. I'll take a point from you madam in the middle? | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
Jeremy Corbyn is a very nice chap, but honestly Mr McDonnell do you | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
really think he can lead the party... Yes, he can he's a new type | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
of leader, the sort of leader that we now need, someone who's | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
completely honest as was said, no spin, no triang layings, has been | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
able to unite the party on the policies because there is no | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
difference on policies and I think he's the type of leader that people | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
will respect. We have had enough of these big leaders. | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
APPLAUSE. Go on, then? One point from you, in | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
the grade suit? Alastair Campbell's hit the nail on the head, the point | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
is, he designed New Labour, they got elected, all right it was a | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
disaster, but they got elected. Excuse me! So you win three times. | :45:03. | :45:14. | |
This is your opposition. You want us to elect a disastrous... I'm old | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
enough to remember the dark ages of the Labour Party in the early 80s | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
which the young people don't remember. That's where we are going. | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
As for the SNP being a credible opposition, let us remind ourselves, | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
they've got 56 seats with 1.4 million votes and a system that I | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
allows that is something that needs to be changed. | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
APPLAUSE. We need to move on. | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
I'd like to come back on that. What do you want to come back on? The | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
gentleman's point in the audience. Which point? The point that's just | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
been made. What about the SNP? The SNP Government in Scotland has the | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
highest popular mandate of any Government in Western Europe. This | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
lot with their in-fighting, their dividedness, are never going to | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
achieve anything like that. You are a product of the system, nothing | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
more. Sue Allenby, please, come to the rescue! Why can't we leave the | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
European Union now? Why can't we leave the European Union now? We | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
voted for it, we should leave. Quentin Letts? I would just say we | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
have all got to go and have supper afterwards so it will be very | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
interesting, the people with the inform-fighting, the public have | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
spoken. The people voted to come out. That was in June. We haven't | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
even had anything from Whitehall so... 17.5 million people voted for | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
Brexit, I think 13.5 voted for Tony Blair in 97 so that gives you the | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
scale of the vote, it's a big mandate there and the people are | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
impatient. I think that they're right to be impatient. I don't think | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
it can happen immediately because you want to try to negotiate some | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
sort of trade relationship with the EU. It might happen, it might not, | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
we might come out of the single markets, we might stay in it under | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
certain terms, I don't know, but it's right to give the politicians a | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
bit of a chance to come up with a deal. But I have no doubt that the | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
article 50 is going to be buttoned some time next year and I think we | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
are going to be sailing out of the EU and hallelujah, I'm very glad | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
about that. People get cross with Theresa May for not telling us every | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
moment what is going on. I think that is a little unrealistic. I | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
think if you are going to be a good poker or perhaps a good bridge | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
player in Salisbury, I think APPLAUSE. | :47:45. | :47:52. | |
Was that terribly prejudice? ! I think the message is going to get | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
into Brussels' head despite the resistance there, that the British | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
people are very clear on the issue of freedom of movement and I don't | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
think that that will be accepted by our politicians. Lastly, the | :48:08. | :48:21. | |
attitude in Brussels at the moment there's lots of rumpy-pumpy going on | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
and that will be more realistic. Now who is being parochial? ! Sue | :48:27. | :48:34. | |
Allenby, what is your concern about this, you say the vote happened in | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
June? Voted in June, no information's filtered out. There | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
are 17.5 million people wondering what is going to happen and why it | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
can't happen sooner than later and we hear from Theresa May that it may | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
not happen for a long time. But nobody knows why exactly. And do you | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
think there may be some backtracking going on, deliberately? Who knows. | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
Or do you think they are trying to work things out? What about you? | :49:03. | :49:14. | |
Brexit is like something out of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory, it | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
means whatever people want it to mean, it's just a word and for some | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
it means staying in Europe having trade agreements, for some it means | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
copping out and there are various flavours in-between. Until that's | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
decided, we are stuck with this vagueness which will carry on and I | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
suspect we'll never leave and I hope we don't. We should stay in. | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
APPLAUSE. Joanna Cherry? | :49:39. | :49:48. | |
You were applauding him, do you agree that we should never leave? | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
The electorate I represent voted to stay in. Every local authority | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
region in Scotland voted to remain so my duty as an SNP MP is to try to | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
get the best possible deal for Scotland, recognising Scotland voted | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
to remain. To answer the lady's question, the reason we can't leave | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
the European Union now is because the leave campaign sold you a pup. | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
It's not easy to leave the European Union. In order to start the process | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
of leaving the European Union, we have to trigger article 50. Before | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
we do that, we have to have some sort of a plan. The Government has | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
no plan, the leave campaign admitted the day after they won the vote that | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
they had no plan. Theresa May doesn't know what Brexit means. As I | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
said earlier, she can't tell you whether it involves staying in the | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
single market, keeping passporting for our vital financial sectors in | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
London and whether it will mean that we'll all have to pay to go abroad | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
on our holidays, she's not able to answer those questions. She says | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
Brexit means Brexit doesn't she. Quentin tried to lead you up the | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
garden path by being rude, making you think that Brexit is easy, they | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
are telling you a pack of lies. APPLAUSE. | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
Don't just take it from me. Look at the case of Greenland. Greenland has | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
a population the size of Croydon. No disrespect to Greenland because the | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
fishing industry is very important in my country as well. The only | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
important industry in Greenland is fishing, a population the size of | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
Croydon, it took Greenland three years to leave the European Union. | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
It took us nine years to negotiate the current trade deal we are | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
negotiating with Canada and it's still not been finalised. Nicola | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
Sturgeon said in a speech yesterday that in evidence to a committee for | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
the Scottish Parliament that this Brexit vote could lead to a decade | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
of uncertainty. Your Government is not being honest with you. They are | :51:44. | :51:46. | |
not able to tell you what Brexit means and they don't have a plan. | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
These people in Brussels that Quentin so deprecates, they have all | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
their negotiators in place, they are organised and ready to go, they want | :51:56. | :51:57. | |
Britain at the negotiating table, Britain can't come to the | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
negotiating table because Theresa May doesn't have a plan, the leave | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
campaign don't have a plan and you were sold a puck by the campaign. | :52:06. | :52:15. | |
APPLAUSE. Joanna, are you therefore concluding | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
it's not going to happen? Very brief because you have had a long say, | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
just yes or no? I think it's going to be difficult. I'm a democrat and | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
respect the fact that the people of England and Wales voted to leave the | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
European Union. Yes or no is it going to happen? I can't answer that | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
question. Anna Soubry? Is it going to happen? The thing is, we have | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
said, or I've said for example that obviously I accept the vote and the | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
people have spoken and, during the whole of the campaign when people | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
like ourselves and Alastair and Joanna, they were trying to persuade | :52:45. | :52:46. | |
people to vote to stay in the European Union. We made it clear | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
that if we voted to come out, that is what we'd get, that we'd leave. | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
Joanna, I agree with what she says when she says that the trouble is, | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
this is fiendishly appallingly complicated. It is not as simple as | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
just walking away from it, even invoking article 50, you've got to | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
lay the ground work. There are other problems as well. We have elections | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
in Germany and elections in France and indeed in other countries in the | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
EU. That also will play a huge part because obviously Merkel will be | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
wanting to sort out matters in her own country. Frankly, the idea that | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
we are going to be top of her wish list is just the stuff of the | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
fairies. So it is going to take time, it's going to take effort and | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
what I do believe we now need is, I don't believe we want the running | :53:36. | :53:38. | |
commentary, as Theresa May's rightly said. But I do think we need a plan. | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
Most importantly, those people that led the leave campaign who sit in | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
some of the highest offices now of Government, people like Boris | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
Johnson, people who persuaded the people across the United Kingdom to | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
vote to leave the EU, they must be held to account. | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
They must deliver. APPLAUSE. | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
All right. What about holding to account the people who said remain | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
on the grounds that if we voted to leave there'll be a DIY recession | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
which there doesn't seem to be? We haven't left yet. They said the | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
economy would collapse. They said it as soon as the vote happened. We | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
didn't say that actually. Alastair Campbell? We haven't had an | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
emergency budget? David you are right on that and that shouldn't | :54:27. | :54:30. | |
have been said but please, I'm delighted when we have... But you... | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
This is important, we haven't left but we have had good figures but we | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
must not kid ourselves that, as we move into an increasing period of | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
uncertainty, we are apparently going to trigger article 50 early next | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
year, then I fear that we'll enter periods of great economic concern. A | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
couple of minutes. Alastair Campbell and John McDonnell? It's so | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
complicated this. What was awful about that dismal dreadful | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
campaign... Which one was that? Vote leave on Thursday and by Friday | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
we'll have ?50 million going to the National Health Service, it's | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
dismal. It was a lie. You've now got to go through interlocking | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
negotiations covering how do we leave, our Free Trade Agreement with | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
the rest of Europe, interim cover while that's going on, how we enter | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
the WTO, the World Trade Organisation as the UK not the EU, | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
54 3 free trade arrangements that we have to make with individual | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
countries where now we have them with Europe and an arrangement on | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
foreign defence and arrangement policy. Canada's got 300 full-time | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
trade negotiators. David Davis stood up in the House of Commons the other | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
day and said proudly, we are going to have 180 civil servants working | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
on this. It's pathetic, there wasn't a plan A and that's why there isn't | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
a Plan B and they are making it up as they go along. | :55:56. | :56:02. | |
OK. Only 30 seconds left now. John McDonnell, what about Owen Smith's | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
idea that Labour could reapply to join the EU in the election, is that | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
on the cards? No, we have had a referendum. As much as I regret it, | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
we have to respect the decision and we have to very quickly now create a | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
new relationship with Europe. We need to get on with that. The point | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
that's been made is, we might not have had the recession hit us | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
immediately but investment decisions are being made now which will start | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
hitting us next year, right the way across the economy. That uncertainty | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
is impacting the economy already and it will hit us even harder so we've | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
got to get into the negotiations fast, make sure we secure access to | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
the market, we protect EU citizens here and UK citizens in Europe as | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
well. We have got to try and get the financial services passport as well | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
and we need to protect the employment and environmental | :56:50. | :56:51. | |
regulations. That's the red lines that Labour have set out. Actually, | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
we are meeting on a regular basis now and the socialist and Democratic | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
Parties across Europe to try to get the best deal we possibly can. We | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
have to respect a decision but we've got to get new certainty that a new | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
Europe that I think will take some of the benefits of the EI and | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
overcome some of the perceived disbenefits of the EU that motivated | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
people to leave. One last word from the woman there? Part of the EU is | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
considered being European because Switzerland, they are not part of | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
the EU, they have a thriving economy, but you would call them | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
European, so I don't understand why MPs and members of the public are | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
saying, oh, because we are going to leave the EU, we are no longer going | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
to be European if we are going to cut ties. Are you happy about the | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
way things are going yourself? I mean, being a 16-year-old when the | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
vote happened I could haven't my voice heard. Now you have it heard? | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
Now I am, yes, but it was quite frustrating. We wanted you to have | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
your voice heard. We voted for you to have your vote. We must stop. But | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
do you feel happen pay with the way things are going -- happy? I'm | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
probably one of the few youngsters that would have voted leave. You | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
should be on the panel! APPLAUSE. | :58:11. | :58:18. | |
I don't know whether there's an age limit for the panel, I don't think | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
there is. The country voted for Brexit and I'm | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
the only Brexiteer. It's the end of the programme, I'm | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
afraid. We are in Sutton Coldfield next week. The week after that, we | :58:33. | :58:40. | |
are in Boston in Lincolnshire. There is the address on the screen. You | :58:41. | :58:48. | |
can call us or go on the website. My thanks to this panel here and all of | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
you who came to Salisbury to take part in this edition of Question | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
Time. Until next Thursday, from all of us here, good night. | :58:59. | :59:00. |