22/09/2016 Question Time


22/09/2016

David Dimbleby presents from Sutton Coldfield. On the panel are Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, Liz Kendall MP, Caroline Lucas MP, Norman Lamb MP, and Julia Hartley-Brewer.


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Transcript


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Welcome to this week's Question Time which comes from Sutton Coldfield.

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Our panel tonight, Conservative MP and leading campaigner

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Labour's Liz Kendall, who ran for the leadership last year

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Newly re-elected leader of the Green Party, Caroline Lucas.

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Liberal Democrat Health spokesman Norman Lamb.

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And broadcaster and columnist Julia Hartley-Brewer.

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You can join the debate on Facebook, Twitter, or text 83981.

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The first question comes from Tom Leonard. When will the naysayers

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stop naying and be positive and forward looking towards a bright

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Brexit future. APPLAUSE

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Caroline Lucas, if you are a naysayer, when will you stop naying?

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I am just looking at the evidence and raising concerns about the fact

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that, for example, this government seems to have no idea which

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direction it is going. We had the referendum and we should listen to

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what people said. I was on the Remain side and I am sorry the

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majority went against us but I accept the result. People have had a

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clear voice to say they want to leave but we are not clear where we

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are going, and the government does not seem to be clear either. We had

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three months over the summer with three different ministers giving

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different versions of whether or not it would include free movement of

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people, whether it would include the single market, whether we could have

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the single market without free movement, and so on. There is a lack

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of clarity and this really matters. If we don't have access to the

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single market, if we are not in it, it has big questions about

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environmental and is, workers' rights. I want to stand up for the

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freedom of movement, an important principle that we benefit from and

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we make the most of when we visit other places, too. I am worried that

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it is not clear where this process is going and that is why I think it

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is right to have a vote again on the issue... A second referendum? On the

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issue of what the final deal looks like. This is not about rerunning...

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Listen, the big rallying cry of the Brexit leaders was, give us back our

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democracy. Why can't we have a democratic decision on which kind of

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Brexit option is on the table? I do not want to rerun the 23rd of June.

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I respect the vote, but I think if they lot of the campaign was about

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democracy, why can't people be trusted to have a vote on whether

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they want a hard Brexit, meaning no environmental protections, no

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freedom of movement, no mention of the single market, which would have

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a big impact... What aspect of the vote do you respect?

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APPLAUSE I respect the fact that we are going

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to have to leave the EU. I am deeply sad about it but I respect it. What

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I want to have clarity over and I think it is right for the British

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people to have a say over is whether it is a soft Brexit, which allows us

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to still be members of the single market, and allows us to have

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environmental protections, freedom of movement, or whether it is one

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that injects us into the wilderness, where we will have businesses having

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to pay hugely more to do business, where we do not have environmental

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protections, and where people who live here now, who have made their

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lives here in good faith from other EU countries still do not know if

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they have a right to stay here. That is wrong.

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APPLAUSE Tom Leonard, you asked the question,

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is she a naysayer in your view? I'm afraid you are. What do you want to

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see? We have been given a great opportunity to engage with the rest

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of the world. Lots of countries out there that suffered under Soviet

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oppression would have yearned for a situation like this, and it is time

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to unleash our potential and engage with the rest of the world and

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repair damaged relationships, such as the Commonwealth, where all the

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growth is happening at the moment APPLAUSE

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Are you arrest less at the pace of things developing, or are you happy?

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I was not expecting any haste but I think Theresa May is treading

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carefully and wants to be precise and clear-headed about it and see

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what lies ahead before rushing into anything. Liz Kendall. Like

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Caroline, I voted and campaign for Remain, in fact we shared a platform

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together. But we lost. And I don't think there should be a second

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referendum. I think we should respect what people have voted for.

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I want to see Theresa May setting out clearly what Britain is going to

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try and get out of these negotiations. And I don't want us to

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give up on membership of the single market. It is absolutely vital for

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manufacturing, for our financial services, but also for workers'

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rights and environmental standards, preventing a race to the bottom. So

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I want to see Theresa May making the strong case for British businesses.

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Of course, we must also be opening up possibilities with countries and

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trade negotiations across the world, but I think it would be a mistake

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to... You are not allowed to do that in the single market. We can have

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trade with other countries. You do already. I don't want to see us

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giving up on the single market. You give up, therefore, on controlling

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immigration. I don't believe that is the case. I know from my own

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constituency, which voted Leave and from cities across the Midlands

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where I campaign, that immigration was a massive concern. We have to

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make that part of the conversation in this country and with our

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European colleagues. I think some other countries, like Italy, may

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well agree that reforms need to be made. They are saying huge problems

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in those countries. So let's not give up on an ambitious negotiating

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strategy which allows us to stay in the single market and make some

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changes to freedom of movement, which is really why most people

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voted for Leave. In the fourth row. We are one of the largest export

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markets for Europe. Wider you think Europe is going to give up on us if

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we have given up on them? -- why do you think Europe is going to give up

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on us? All of Germany's cars are sold in the UK, so why would they

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give up on us? Two members of the audience are right. Mr Leonard put

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the argument better than I can. You are absolutely right, I am going to

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reinforce his point. It is such an exciting opportunity, and the

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opportunity is through leaving the customs union so we can trade freely

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with the rest of the world. That means we have to come out of the

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single market, which is the force of regulating us. The problem with the

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single market is that means we effectively in the European Union.

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Are When Remain supporters say they want to stay in the single market,

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that is code for saying they do not like the referendum result. If we

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are leaving, we have to be out of the single market. Your point on

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trade is spot on. We have a deficit with the European Union of up to

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?100 billion a year. We are the major customer for the European

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Union of any country in the world. Whilst we are still in the EU, the

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biggest customer is the US. Once we are out, it will be us. All of those

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German car manufacturing companies, Irish beef is almost all bought in

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the UK. Are the French going to stop selling us champagne because they

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are cross with us? It is very unlikely. They all have too agreed

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together. When you go to these countries itemising why people would

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want to have a trade relationship with us, you forget that when it

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comes to the EU, all of them have to agree. We have already seen the

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Czech Republic and Slovakia and others who are saying they will not

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accept anything that does not accept that we need freedom of movement for

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them to be here. Your idea that we can pick off these countries does

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not work. If they do not allow us to get free movement of people and say

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they will not trade for us, a million jobs in Germany that relate

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to selling manufacturing products to the UK, that is quite an important

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economic factor. If they say that, we fall back on WTO rules, which is

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an average 2.4% tariff. The pound has fallen by about 15%, more than

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wipes out the tariff. The economic opportunity is huge. As you said, we

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need to be looking at the world. The next 100 years will not be about a

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sclerotic failing European Union, but about China, India and Brazil.

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That is our opportunity. APPLAUSE

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Norman, I will come to you in a moment. We have heard from a couple

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of members of the audience who voted to leave. Anybody who voted to

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remain who feels... Yes, do you feel upset by what is going on and wish

:10:04.:10:07.

the government would get on with it? I think there needs to be some

:10:08.:10:10.

decision on what it is going to look like. You say we need to get out of

:10:11.:10:15.

the single market. There are people who voted to leave who want to stay

:10:16.:10:18.

in the single market because nobody knew that was what they were voting

:10:19.:10:23.

for. We need clarity of what this looks like, so we can then decide if

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it is what we want, or not. Do you think the Government knows what they

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are heading for? The Government does not appear to have a clue what they

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are heading for. Norman Lamb. Indeed, we are told the Cabinet is

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split on whether to stay in the single market. This is actually

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quite important that our economic interests. I voted and campaigned

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for Remain, but I accept the result. I thought you wanted another

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referendum. Well, we want a referendum, and I think this is as

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important for those who voted to leave as those who voted to stay, on

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the deal that is done. Because who knows what they will negotiate? We

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have no idea where the Government is going on this. They have not said

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anything. We do not know whether they will try to stay in the single

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market, or leave. These are fundamental issues. We have a load

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of people working, for example, in our health service and care

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services, who come to work in this country, about 80,000 in care

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services from other parts of the European Union. What is their

:11:29.:11:32.

future? What happens to future people who want to come and work in

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care services, in the NHS or any other part of our economy? In all of

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this, it is really important not to lose sight of the fact that whilst

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there are concerns about immigration, immigration is also

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incredibly important for our country, and we should, for a start,

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guarantee although is people who are already hear the right to remain. I

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think leaving them in the lurch is outrageous.

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APPLAUSE Julia Hartley-Brewer, can you

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address the idea of a second referendum on the terms negotiated?

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Does that sound democratic in the way that Caroline and Norman

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suggest? I have some news about the second referendum. That vote on the

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23rd of June, that was the second referendum.

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APPLAUSE We keep being told that we have no

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idea what is going to happen, we haven't got a clue. We didn't have a

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clue back in 1975, those who got a vote what was going to happen. We

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did not have a clue at all of the times when there were major changes

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in our relationship to the EU without anyone bothering to ask the

:12:46.:12:49.

British people. It is amazing how many people who love the EU did not

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think democracy mattered for all those decades, when they were

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handing over the democratic powers of our Parliament to another body

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oversees. APPLAUSE

:12:58.:13:07.

So you get loud applause for that, but my question was, if you believe

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that much in democracy, why not have a third referendum? If anyone on

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this panel had mentioned we would need another referendum to decide

:13:20.:13:22.

things afterwards before we actually have that, absolutely. But

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Parliament voted, MPs voted to have a referendum and the Government set

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out leaflets at our expense, 9 million quid, saying that the

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Government would enact our decision. Every time there is a vote to do

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with the EU, the EU does the same thing. If you don't vote the right

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way, we make you do it again. It happened in France, it happened in

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Ireland, it happened in Denmark. This is not going to happen here.

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You are scared of it, aren't you? If MPs try to stop this happening, I

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will be first in the queue with my pitchfork outside the houses of

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parliament. APPLAUSE

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But it should not, David, be a stitch up by members of the Cabinet.

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You cannot leave it to Parliament to go against the wishes of the British

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people. It should surely be the British people who decide on the

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final deal. Let me just say this. I'm not sure I trust Boris Johnson,

:14:27.:14:31.

for instance. He stood in front of that campaign bus with ?350 million

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to the NHS, and it is not going to come. He lied to the British people.

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The woman there in the front? I think anybody who says that we

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didn't know what we were getting into, it's not right. As a young

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person I was told if we voted leave my future was down the drain. I felt

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it was already down the drain with all the previous decisions. I

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thought this was a chance for Britain to say we can take

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responsibility for ourselves. Politicians say this went wrong

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because of Europe previously. APPLAUSE.

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Jacob, you haven't answered the point about a third referendum, we

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have to call it because we did have one back in the 70s. Is there not an

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argument democratically for looking at the package that's negotiated by

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the Conservative Government in allowing the audience here and

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everybody else in the country on saying whether it's the right

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package? If the package were rejected, does that mean we then

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remain in the European Union, and is it therefore a reversal of the

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referendum we've already had? If it is, it's completely pointless and it

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shows contempt for democracy and... I agree. Delighted. Excellent, come

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on? On that point, I don't think if you had a hard Brexit let's say that

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was on offer in a referendum and voted against it, I don't think the

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consequence of that should be the status quo, in other words you

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pretend 23rd June didn't happen. You are sending a message to two back to

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the Government to get something better. OK, so you have a perpetual

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referendum until finally the termsdeparture are agreed. I'm not

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frightened of the British election rat, they get things right, as they

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did on 23rd June and I think if you voted again you would vote the same

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way in larger numbers because you would think it was content to...

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More, more, more... What is interesting... More

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audience. Thank you. APPLAUSE.

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. More audience, please. You, madam?

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There are two clear things that can happen now that we have left. The

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one way is, we stay in the single market, the other is that we leave.

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Both of those involve leaving, but they are two completely different

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scenarios and everyone who voted Leave would have thought of both.

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Isn't it fair to give the British public a say in this? Absolutely.

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The woman in white? So, my question would be, if the British electorate

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are responsible enough to decide to leave the European Union Are they

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responsible enough to decide how we leave it?

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Hear, hear, well said. You in the checked shirt? Has nobody

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had a crystal ball when the referendum took place, nobody knows

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the long-term impact of Brexit and I think therefore another referendum

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will give the British public the same dilemma and they'll just be

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voting on the basis of chance rather than fact.

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So the three wise men will decide, happy with that? They'll have more

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information than the wider general public. . Don't believe that.

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Everybody trusts them, do they? The woman in orange? All the talk about

:17:57.:18:01.

greater clarity over what the Government's planning to do - I

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negotiate contracts for a living and if I had to go into negotiations

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with the other side knowing what my tactics and baseline positions were,

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it would make my job a whole lot more difficult. That seems to be

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what we are asking Theresa May to do.

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The problem is for many companies, so the Japanese Government says that

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Japanese companies who employ 140,000 people in the UK want to

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know about what tariffs they may or may not be paying, what the

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regulation system will be and whether it will be consistent across

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Europe, whether they'll still be able the get workers across Europe

:18:40.:18:43.

if they need them. That will determine long-term investment

:18:44.:18:47.

decisions for the future. So companies, manufacturing companies

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in our financial services need clarity. You mean the Prime Minister

:18:51.:18:56.

should say what's happening now? Or should Article 50 be there now? No,

:18:57.:18:59.

it's more important we get this right and take our time to do it.

:19:00.:19:04.

You said the Japanese are impatient? No. What they want to know is, what

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is the deal that might be coming forward. How can they know? Because

:19:09.:19:13.

the Government's not having those discussions with people, whether

:19:14.:19:16.

they are the financial services or the manufacturing companies, they

:19:17.:19:18.

don't know what is happening and they need to. If you run your own

:19:19.:19:22.

business, the thing you want above all is certainty for the future and

:19:23.:19:25.

they are not getting that now. I'm going to move on. Brexit will come

:19:26.:19:30.

back week on week until the negotiations are complete and then

:19:31.:19:32.

we'll have Norman Lamb back. We're in Boston, Lincolnshire

:19:33.:19:41.

next week and Neath, Come and speak your mind,

:19:42.:19:44.

I'll give the details at the end. Second question from Ted Woodley

:19:45.:20:00.

please? If Jeremy Corbyn win this is weekend, is it time the MPs who

:20:01.:20:04.

oppose him either sign up to his programme or move aside?

:20:05.:20:05.

APPLAUSE. Liz Kendall you are not a supporter

:20:06.:20:23.

exactly, what do you think? Well, I voted for Owen Smith in this

:20:24.:20:26.

leadership election and I hope that he wins. But whoever is elected on

:20:27.:20:31.

Saturday needs to unite our party and take the fight to the Tories.

:20:32.:20:37.

But I don't think that you get unity by telling people they have to

:20:38.:20:42.

support you. You get it by showing that you can lead a strong and

:20:43.:20:47.

effective team, that you can set credible policies that are right for

:20:48.:20:51.

this century, not the last, and that you can actually convince the public

:20:52.:20:55.

to support you, not just your members. We have got a mountain to

:20:56.:21:01.

climb as a Labour Party if we want to get elected in 2020. Over 100

:21:02.:21:06.

seats that we'd need to win. We can only do that if we really talk to

:21:07.:21:10.

the public and not just ourselves. It's easy to talk to people who

:21:11.:21:14.

already agree with you. It's much tougher, as I discovered during the

:21:15.:21:18.

referendum campaign, to talk to people who disagree. But we have to

:21:19.:21:21.

do that if we want to get back into Government and put our principles

:21:22.:21:24.

into practise. Does that mean you would or wouldn't sign up to Jeremy

:21:25.:21:31.

Corbyn's programme? Well, I disagree with Jeremy on many issues,

:21:32.:21:34.

particularly around defence and our membership of things like NATO. I

:21:35.:21:39.

think it's very important that Labour remains a strong party on

:21:40.:21:43.

defence. Whoever is elected, I don't think that I would put myself

:21:44.:21:47.

forward to serve in the Shadow Cabinet. We have got some great

:21:48.:21:51.

people who can take the fight to the Tories, but we also need I think to

:21:52.:21:55.

do some serious long-term thinking about the future of our party and

:21:56.:21:58.

what we've got to offer to the country. That's what I'll be

:21:59.:22:02.

focussing on in the coming years. APPLAUSE.

:22:03.:22:05.

You asked the question, what is your view? I'm not a member of the Labour

:22:06.:22:11.

Party but I do support a lot of Jeremy Corbyn's socialist policies.

:22:12.:22:14.

I find what's happened with the growth in the Labour Party

:22:15.:22:21.

extraordinary. The growth in the membership? Yes. I just can't see

:22:22.:22:29.

how it's compatible having politicians, with respect like Liz

:22:30.:22:33.

Kendall who, in my opinion represent the past, the period of the Labour

:22:34.:22:38.

Party, one of their worst periods was the Tony Blair time. We won

:22:39.:22:43.

three general elections. No, you lost over four million votes during

:22:44.:22:47.

that time. The gap between Richard poor ballooned during New Labour's

:22:48.:22:52.

time. There is a whole load of young working class people who see Jeremy

:22:53.:22:57.

Corbyn as, not perfect but offering something different and having a

:22:58.:22:59.

different view of politicians in general. That has toe be welcomed.

:23:00.:23:02.

APPLAUSE. And do you think that...

:23:03.:23:08.

APPLAUSE. Do you think like the leader of

:23:09.:23:14.

Unite Len McCluskey, he said that people in the Labour Party who tend

:23:15.:23:19.

to oppose Corbyn should be deselected and not stand for Labour?

:23:20.:23:23.

Shifted out by their constituencies? I would support the call for

:23:24.:23:29.

mandatory reselection. I wouldn't necessarily say that you should

:23:30.:23:31.

target people you don't like, I think you should have a democratic

:23:32.:23:34.

discussion in a democratic organisation, such as the Labour

:23:35.:23:37.

Party, and I don't think being an MP should be a job for life.

:23:38.:23:41.

APPLAUSE. Neither do I, Sir, but, you know, we

:23:42.:23:48.

already have a process for reselection of MPs. Nobody has a

:23:49.:23:53.

right to be a Labour candidate or Labour MP, a divine right. All

:23:54.:23:57.

Labour MPs have been selected by a relatively small number of members

:23:58.:24:01.

and then a much wider number of members of the public. That is a

:24:02.:24:06.

serious responsibility on Labour members and to actually tell the

:24:07.:24:10.

public that they don't have The Right to Choose someone who they

:24:11.:24:14.

already think is the best person to represent their area, I think would

:24:15.:24:19.

be a really serious issue, especially if it's for internal

:24:20.:24:22.

factional issues. If they want to have their say, they can join the

:24:23.:24:25.

Labour Party and take part, if they don't want to have their say, they

:24:26.:24:28.

don't have to take part, it's a free country.

:24:29.:24:38.

Julie Hartley-Brewer? The thing about democracy, you have Her

:24:39.:24:41.

Majesty's opposition and the reality is the Labour needs to make a

:24:42.:24:46.

decision whether it wants to be a serious alternative Government in

:24:47.:24:50.

waiting or a Friday night Marxist Book Club, it can't be both.

:24:51.:24:56.

APPLAUSE. The reality is that you ask Labour

:24:57.:25:01.

Party members to vote for socialism, imagine everyone's surprise, they

:25:02.:25:03.

vote for socialism, but the British people aren't going to vote for a

:25:04.:25:06.

socialist Government. It's never going to happen. It's absolute

:25:07.:25:10.

pie-in-the-sky politics to think it will happen. The reality is, Jeremy

:25:11.:25:15.

Corbyn couldn't lead the Labour Party to victory in an egg and spoon

:25:16.:25:18.

race right now. APPLAUSE.

:25:19.:25:23.

Very good hard-working sensible MPs like Liz Kendall who talk about the

:25:24.:25:28.

real issues affecting real people with proper substantive ideas for

:25:29.:25:32.

how to actually solve some of the problems that are affecting the

:25:33.:25:38.

working class voters dream of course a socialist utopian future or you

:25:39.:25:42.

are falling by the wayside, that's a horrible mistake. I don't know what

:25:43.:25:47.

the Labour Party should do, they are facing deselection for speaking the

:25:48.:25:49.

truth or they are going to face losing their seats in 2020. What I

:25:50.:25:55.

can suggest is, go and get another job, there are vacancies on Bake

:25:56.:25:57.

Off! APPLAUSE.

:25:58.:26:03.

Liz, if Jeremy Corbyn wins the election again, you want the party

:26:04.:26:06.

to unite, then you are saying you won't serve under him in the Shadow

:26:07.:26:10.

Cabinet in the next breath, which is it? You can serve the Labour Party

:26:11.:26:15.

in many ways. I think we doe, as a party, need to do some serious

:26:16.:26:19.

thinking Whant we offer for the future, how we make the economy work

:26:20.:26:22.

and Public Services fit for the future and what Britain's role is in

:26:23.:26:26.

the world, especially post-Brexit. You can serve in different ways and

:26:27.:26:34.

I would say that for many years on the Brexit, overminute held his firm

:26:35.:26:38.

principles and never gave up on them. That is why everybody likes

:26:39.:26:42.

him and is getting behind him, exactly for that reason. So do I, I

:26:43.:26:49.

do not just change my opinion on what I believe in just because

:26:50.:26:52.

things are tough and I'm sure overmist wouldn't ask me to do

:26:53.:26:56.

anything any different. Norman Lamb? In direct answer to your question, I

:26:57.:27:01.

think it's incredibly difficult for those MPs because there are

:27:02.:27:05.

irreconcilable differences within the Labour Party and what do they do

:27:06.:27:10.

in terms of their conscience? Do they support a leader who they don't

:27:11.:27:16.

believe in? Or do they continue to campaign for something else? I used

:27:17.:27:21.

to be a lawyer, irreconcilable differences seem to me to be grounds

:27:22.:27:25.

for divorce and I suspect that ultimately that's what will happen

:27:26.:27:29.

here. But I think the really worrying thing for democracy is that

:27:30.:27:32.

there is nothing holding the Government to account. That's really

:27:33.:27:37.

important, whether you are a Conservative, a Labour supporter, a

:27:38.:27:41.

Liberal Democrat, you need to have accountable Government. If you have

:27:42.:27:45.

no real challenge, you get arrogance and complacency. If the Tories just

:27:46.:27:50.

assume that they'll win in 2020, it's disastrous in terms of good

:27:51.:27:54.

Government. So there is a crying need I think for something new to

:27:55.:28:01.

emerge. I wonder what it will be. Hold on a second, Tim Farron claims

:28:02.:28:05.

he gets these texts from Labour MPs who're thinking of coming over, but

:28:06.:28:14.

we haven't seen any come over. Is it Liberal fantasy this? I don't know,

:28:15.:28:18.

I haven't seen the texts, but I do think there are lots of discussions

:28:19.:28:23.

that go on in Parliament. People talk to each other. There is no

:28:24.:28:26.

sense that people are going to be splitting in the Labour Party, let

:28:27.:28:31.

me make that clear. What my message is to many Labour members worried

:28:32.:28:35.

about what is happening is, don't split and we won't quit. David,

:28:36.:28:43.

surely those who want an alternative to the Tories, surely we have to

:28:44.:28:46.

focus on how we build a progressive force that in 2020 stands a chance

:28:47.:28:51.

of winning an election against the Tories. It's a despair to assume the

:28:52.:28:57.

Tories will be in power for the foreseeable future. You, Sir? If

:28:58.:29:03.

Jeremy does win, you are going to have a miserable time over the next

:29:04.:29:05.

few years in the party. Stop smiling!

:29:06.:29:08.

LAUGHTER. So why not have a break-away party?

:29:09.:29:14.

Why would I leave my own party? You can't put your message across. A

:29:15.:29:20.

left-wing Labour Socialist Party is not what we want. I'll always fight

:29:21.:29:24.

for the Labour Party. You don't go into politics for an easy life. If

:29:25.:29:28.

you have principles, you stick to them. We need to surely build

:29:29.:29:36.

something up. Progressive parties who work together. You could work

:29:37.:29:40.

with the Greens, the SNP. I don't want and believe there would be an

:29:41.:29:44.

electoral pact with other parties. I've always thought if on particular

:29:45.:29:49.

issues you agree, so Caroline and I campaigned together on Remain and

:29:50.:29:53.

I've worked with Norman on getting a decent funding deal for the NHS and

:29:54.:29:57.

if you agree on particular issues, try and work together, the public is

:29:58.:30:00.

sick of people shouting at each other. Caroline Lucas, your go?

:30:01.:30:05.

Thank you. To two back to the question, I think if he wins it's

:30:06.:30:11.

absolutely crucial for the party to unite behind him for the reasons

:30:12.:30:14.

Norman said. We have seen the Government getting away with huge

:30:15.:30:20.

amounts in terms of rolling back the state, privatising the NHS, going

:30:21.:30:22.

away with the Brexit, ignoring climate change, they are making the

:30:23.:30:26.

lives of my constituents in Brighton very, very miserable. So you are

:30:27.:30:32.

saying that... Liz has to sign up to Jeremy Corbyn's programme. That is

:30:33.:30:33.

the question? I think Labour and Liz Doohan to

:30:34.:30:45.

sign up for that. There is not much difference between what Owen Smith

:30:46.:30:47.

is saying on a vast number of policies and what Jeremy Corbyn is

:30:48.:30:54.

saying. I think, as well as uniting, Labour needs to be bolder. The

:30:55.:31:02.

chances of Labour winning the next election with an outright majority

:31:03.:31:07.

are vanishingly small. Therefore, we do need to look at ways of seeing

:31:08.:31:11.

how we can do better for our constituents by working more closely

:31:12.:31:15.

together. I want to lay a challenge to Jeremy Corbyn to say that what he

:31:16.:31:19.

should be doing, if he wants to do politics differently, as he says, is

:31:20.:31:24.

to embrace electoral form. Let everybody's vote count all year

:31:25.:31:27.

round and then we might get the kind of politics we need. In the second

:31:28.:31:34.

row up there on the right. Any leader whose method of uniting the

:31:35.:31:37.

party is to say that unless you agree with me, you have to leave, is

:31:38.:31:42.

not fit to be a leader and certainly not fit to be the Prime Minister.

:31:43.:31:52.

Jacob. Thank you. I agree with Norman Lamb's point, which I think

:31:53.:31:57.

is spot-on, that good government needs strong opposition. I like it

:31:58.:32:01.

from a narrow party political point that there is a hopeless opposition.

:32:02.:32:05.

But I value the constitution even more than I value narrow party

:32:06.:32:10.

political points. And I have a sneaking admiration for Jeremy

:32:11.:32:15.

Corbyn. I think he is an amazingly honest and straightforward

:32:16.:32:19.

politician who says what he thinks. But... But what he thinks is both

:32:20.:32:26.

dangerous and unelectable. APPLAUSE

:32:27.:32:31.

It would be dangerous for our national security, it would ruin our

:32:32.:32:38.

economy. It is a really dangerous programme for the nation. And

:32:39.:32:42.

sensible people like Liz Kendall cannot, in good conscience, go on

:32:43.:32:45.

the front bench with that sort of programme. If Labour is to win

:32:46.:32:50.

elections, it needs to win seats like mind, which was a Labour seat

:32:51.:32:54.

until 2010 with a marginal boundary changes. I happen to think if Liz

:32:55.:32:58.

Kendall were leader of the Labour Party, I would face stiff

:32:59.:33:02.

competition at the next election. If Jeremy Corbyn is leader, my majority

:33:03.:33:07.

will go up, and that is a bad position for British politics to be

:33:08.:33:14.

in. We don't want that. We need serious opposition. It is really

:33:15.:33:17.

good for government. It makes government think about things more

:33:18.:33:21.

carefully. It is the proper process. But Jeremy Corbyn cannot be that. He

:33:22.:33:26.

is destroying the Labour Party, in my view, and that is a short-term

:33:27.:33:31.

political advantage for us. The man spectacles. A lot of working-class

:33:32.:33:39.

people are on zero-hours contracts. Jeremy Corbyn's ten pledges include

:33:40.:33:44.

an end to those. Many working-class people are in poor quality, high

:33:45.:33:48.

rent, privately owned housing. Jeremy Corbyn has said half a

:33:49.:33:55.

million council houses. What of Jeremy Corbyn's ten pledges can Liz

:33:56.:33:58.

Kendall possibly object to? APPLAUSE

:33:59.:34:06.

At the last general election in 2015 we pledged to end the zero-hours

:34:07.:34:12.

contracts, building more homes, tackling poor quality rented

:34:13.:34:17.

accommodation. You ask what I disagree with. I said earlier on, in

:34:18.:34:22.

answering the question at the beginning, that I believe in

:34:23.:34:28.

multilateral disarmament. I think you can't just hope that other

:34:29.:34:31.

countries give up their nuclear weapons. Putting peace at the heart

:34:32.:34:41.

of foreign policy is not withdrawing from Nato, not unilateral

:34:42.:34:45.

disarmament. I think he does believe... You think, you do not

:34:46.:34:50.

know. I was on many hustings with him where that is what he said. The

:34:51.:34:56.

submarines without missiles. Is that... He actually made that a free

:34:57.:35:04.

vote. We have to keep moving because we have so much to talk about. Do

:35:05.:35:08.

you mind? If you can do a brief answer. Although Jacob says he is a

:35:09.:35:14.

nice man and consistent, the atmosphere in the Labour Party, with

:35:15.:35:19.

the abuse of particularly female members, I find absolutely horrific.

:35:20.:35:28.

Christopher Webb, to round this off. Your question. Is Theresa May under

:35:29.:35:34.

any pressure to call a general election in the spring? Jeremy

:35:35.:35:37.

Corbyn says he is putting the Labour Party, if he wins, on a footing

:35:38.:35:42.

phrase bring general election. Is May under any pressure to call one?

:35:43.:35:48.

Jacob Rees-Mogg. I don't think so. I think we would win by such a large

:35:49.:35:52.

majority if we were to have won that there is not huge pressure coming

:35:53.:35:57.

from outside. No Leader of the Opposition ever says he doesn't want

:35:58.:35:59.

a general election because it looks as if you are frightened if you

:36:00.:36:03.

won't win. However much it would be a disaster if you have one. I don't

:36:04.:36:11.

think she is under pressure. What about pressure from inside? Go for

:36:12.:36:16.

it! I think we would look deeply opportunistic if we went for one in

:36:17.:36:20.

the spring. I do perish the thought because I think the electorate is

:36:21.:36:23.

pretty high-minded. If they thought we were taking an unfair advantage

:36:24.:36:28.

by bringing forward an election over our Labour opponents, that would

:36:29.:36:31.

harm our chances and we would do less well. If the left push for it

:36:32.:36:36.

and demand and agitate, we would win comfortably so I would not be wholly

:36:37.:36:40.

opposed to us giving in to that pressure if it came, but I don't

:36:41.:36:51.

think it will. In the middle. We can't keep having elections and

:36:52.:36:55.

leadership changes and members of the opposition cabinet resigning. We

:36:56.:37:03.

need a time of stability where there are no changes, where everybody can

:37:04.:37:06.

just get on with their jobs. APPLAUSE

:37:07.:37:12.

I don't ever remember such a nasty and divisive time in politics. I

:37:13.:37:20.

don't mean what is happening within my party. I mean some of the anger

:37:21.:37:26.

and division over the EU referendum. And real leadership is actually

:37:27.:37:29.

about trying to find the things that people have in common, what unites

:37:30.:37:32.

us, rather than what divides us. That is the leadership we need, not

:37:33.:37:38.

just in my party but in the country, because things feel fractured and

:37:39.:37:41.

divisive between those who voted Remain and Lees, pro-and

:37:42.:37:46.

anti-immigration, young and old. Would an election clear the air? I

:37:47.:37:52.

think you have to have a reason for a general election, rather than

:37:53.:37:57.

trying to wipe the opposition out. To be honest, I think the Tories are

:37:58.:38:01.

all over the shop on Brexit. They are trying to take us back to the

:38:02.:38:05.

1950s with proposals on grammar schools. They have cut inheritance

:38:06.:38:10.

and capital gains tax. That is my view and I don't think they have the

:38:11.:38:14.

leadership the country needs in future and I will always be prepared

:38:15.:38:19.

to make that case. I don't think that Theresa May has a mandate for a

:38:20.:38:23.

particular version of Brexit, as I have said, so a general election

:38:24.:38:26.

could clear the air on that. It is wrong that we have a government

:38:27.:38:31.

elected on 24% of the eligible vote. The idea that that is democratic is

:38:32.:38:35.

wrong. I would like a general election but please can we have it

:38:36.:38:42.

under proportional representation? Just wave a wand. Julia

:38:43.:38:49.

Hartley-Brewer. I don't think there is any pressure, certainly not from

:38:50.:38:53.

the Labour Party and none from the Tories, who are sensible. We have a

:38:54.:38:57.

fixed term Parliament act for a reason, to stop giving Prime

:38:58.:39:00.

Minister that control and power over when they call elections. This idea

:39:01.:39:05.

about her needing a mandate, we don't elect prime ministers, we

:39:06.:39:09.

don't have a presidential system, we elect a Parliament and the leader of

:39:10.:39:13.

the largest party gets to form a government. Let's stop pretending

:39:14.:39:19.

that is not our system. I suspect she is under quite a lot of pressure

:39:20.:39:23.

from some Tory strategists to have an election. The temptation to go

:39:24.:39:27.

soon, to destroy the Labour Party, must be quite considerable. And

:39:28.:39:32.

there is a case for it, because of the need for a mandate for the

:39:33.:39:35.

negotiations, but we have ready discussed that so we will not go

:39:36.:39:40.

back on that again. But overall, I think it is unlikely we will have

:39:41.:39:44.

one. If we do have one, it should, as Caroline says, be on a fair

:39:45.:39:51.

voting system. Because at the moment, the last... We had a

:39:52.:39:55.

referendum on the EU and you voted against it. Over 25% of people voted

:39:56.:40:03.

Green Party or the Lib Dems and there are ten MPs, 425%. That is

:40:04.:40:13.

unacceptable. Chloe Jones, please. Should we pay more in taxes for the

:40:14.:40:18.

sake of the NHS? The NHS has recorded a record deficit of ?2.5

:40:19.:40:22.

billion, nearly. Julia Hartley-Brewer. Should we put up

:40:23.:40:27.

taxes for the NHS? I don't think it is a question of whether we should.

:40:28.:40:32.

I think we are going to have two. The question is should we. We can

:40:33.:40:37.

either agree that we stop providing all of the care from cradle to

:40:38.:40:42.

grave, and we stop funding IVF, that has been in the news today about

:40:43.:40:46.

couples unable to get the IVF that they are entitled to, we stop

:40:47.:40:51.

funding new cancer drugs. More treatments, more drugs coming onto

:40:52.:40:54.

the market every day that cost vast amounts more. We either decide to

:40:55.:40:58.

spend less on that, or we decide we are going to stop treating people

:40:59.:41:02.

who bring on their own problems, people who are obese, people who

:41:03.:41:06.

smoke. We can make those different choices, or we can city say we pay

:41:07.:41:09.

more tax to pay for what is needed. I think we need a debate about this.

:41:10.:41:14.

I would like to think we can take this debate out of politics and make

:41:15.:41:17.

it a sensible debate about the real choices. Here is the debate and you

:41:18.:41:24.

have a chance to say where you stand. I don't think we have a

:41:25.:41:28.

choice unless we stop getting older and fatter. You are not saying what

:41:29.:41:32.

you think. Norman Lamb said a penny on income tax would raise ?45

:41:33.:41:40.

billion a year. RUSI of that? No, I think it should come out of general

:41:41.:41:43.

taxation, but yes, we should spend more. We spend a smaller percentage

:41:44.:41:50.

of GDP than France and Germany, which is why we have the waiting

:41:51.:41:56.

lists, etc. Whether we need to raise taxes to increase the amount of

:41:57.:41:59.

money Government and has to spend is a different issue. We could use the

:42:00.:42:04.

magic money tree, but I am not sure it exists! Norman Lamb. The NHS, and

:42:05.:42:11.

the care system, care for elderly and disabled people, is on its

:42:12.:42:14.

knees. We see more and more operations being cancelled. There

:42:15.:42:18.

was news today that there are tens of thousands more operations

:42:19.:42:20.

cancelled than the official figures suggest. Endless people delayed

:42:21.:42:27.

discharge in hospital. I have a nine-year-old who may have autism,

:42:28.:42:32.

and his parents were told he would have to wait three years for a

:42:33.:42:36.

diagnosis, at the age of nine. This is a disgrace. And we are spending a

:42:37.:42:41.

significantly lower proportion of our national income on health than

:42:42.:42:45.

most other European countries. Where would you divert from to pay for

:42:46.:42:51.

health? We need to think about extra taxation and I would be prepared to

:42:52.:42:55.

pay it. The question is, how important is it that we get care for

:42:56.:43:00.

our elderly mum or dad in their hour of need? How important is it that a

:43:01.:43:04.

teenage girl with an eating disorder gets treatment when she needs it?

:43:05.:43:09.

Families all over this country are being let down by the NHS. We were

:43:10.:43:15.

let down in terms of mental health in my family. So I am prepared to

:43:16.:43:18.

pay extra if necessary to ensure we have a decent, efficient and

:43:19.:43:23.

effective NHS and care system. APPLAUSE

:43:24.:43:28.

Third row from the back. Firstly, shouldn't we use the money that the

:43:29.:43:38.

Conservatives want to make a seven-day service by using that

:43:39.:43:41.

money to perfect the five-day service as it stands? Norman Lamb

:43:42.:43:48.

referred to some problems of being discharged, etc. Abandon the

:43:49.:43:55.

seven-day favour of going back to the five-day? We need to make sure a

:43:56.:44:00.

patient is safe whenever they fall ill. We can't have a situation where

:44:01.:44:05.

if you fall ill on a Saturday or Sunday, or later at night, you are

:44:06.:44:13.

at more risk. There are real risks sometimes, particularly with

:44:14.:44:17.

out-of-hours services which in rural areas are often threadbare. But all

:44:18.:44:23.

of this stuff about the strike being because we needed the seven-day NHS,

:44:24.:44:27.

let's make sure people know that the junior doctors are already working

:44:28.:44:29.

seven days a week. APPLAUSE

:44:30.:44:34.

Jacob Rees-Mogg, you were part of the campaign that said there would

:44:35.:44:40.

be ?350 million a week more to spend. That is what I read on the

:44:41.:44:47.

bus. That is what the bus said. It was an opportunity, it did not say

:44:48.:44:52.

they would. We will let Jacob answer. Should we pay more tax?

:44:53.:44:57.

Clearly, the impression was given that Brexit would mean more for the

:44:58.:45:01.

NHS. We should not pay more tax because we are already taxed to the

:45:02.:45:06.

historic limit of taxation in the economy. If you look at figures

:45:07.:45:11.

going back to the 1970s, the tax take to GDP varies between 34% and

:45:12.:45:17.

38%. If you look at the Treasury Redbook, we're heading towards 38%.

:45:18.:45:23.

It is a question of allocating the expenditure where you think the

:45:24.:45:26.

priority is, which is why the Government has decided, as requested

:45:27.:45:31.

by the head of the NHS, to allocate an extra ?10 billion to the NHS,

:45:32.:45:36.

which as it happens coincides with the net saving from leaving the

:45:37.:45:40.

European Union, but that is a side issue, and has brought forward 6

:45:41.:45:44.

billion of that into this financial year. That is very important. The

:45:45.:45:49.

NHS does need more money and the Government is providing it, but

:45:50.:45:53.

there is not actually room for increasing the total tax burden on

:45:54.:45:56.

the United Kingdom. So it is a question of how you spend the money

:45:57.:46:00.

we are already taking in taxes, and then your priorities. And yes, once

:46:01.:46:06.

we have left the European Union and are no longer making contributions,

:46:07.:46:08.

that is money that could be allocated to the NHS. Do I think

:46:09.:46:13.

that is a good idea? Yes, I do. APPLAUSE

:46:14.:46:17.

Liz Kendall, do you accept 38% of GDP in tax is the maximum and

:46:18.:46:23.

therefore there is no room for increasing it? No, I absolutely

:46:24.:46:30.

believe we need to put more into the NHS and social care, crucially, and

:46:31.:46:33.

that the fairest and most efficient way to do that would be through more

:46:34.:46:36.

taxes. I think there are other options too. But look, the truth is,

:46:37.:46:43.

we are living for longer, we will need care and support. Yet we have a

:46:44.:46:49.

million people who get no help with the basics of daily living getting

:46:50.:46:53.

up, washed fed and going to the toilet. One in three family carers

:46:54.:46:57.

have to give up work or reduce their hours to look after their loved

:46:58.:47:04.

ones. That makes no economic sense. Everybody knows the problem, what

:47:05.:47:08.

would you do to solve it? This week I joined with Norman and Dan

:47:09.:47:12.

Poulter, a former Conservative minister, to say we need immediate

:47:13.:47:16.

action in the Autumn Statement and then we need a proper independent

:47:17.:47:20.

cross party commission on the long-term funding for health and

:47:21.:47:22.

social care. Where would you take the money from, Liz? I think that we

:47:23.:47:27.

should pay more in our taxes, I think we also need to look at very

:47:28.:47:32.

difficult questions about whether the wealthiest older people who have

:47:33.:47:37.

the means may be able to contribute more. I think that Winter Fuel

:47:38.:47:46.

Payments should be restricted, for example, to the poorer. You can't

:47:47.:47:55.

ask working age people to pay all of the costs that we are going to need

:47:56.:47:58.

to put into the health and social care system. What normally happens

:47:59.:48:04.

is, when any politician raises these questions, they're screaming

:48:05.:48:06.

headlines and all hell breaks loose. That's why I think we need this

:48:07.:48:10.

cross party commission to set up something sustainable for the

:48:11.:48:14.

future. Caroline, I'll come to you in a moment. One or two members of

:48:15.:48:18.

the audience. You there on the right? I think it's an easy answer.

:48:19.:48:27.

I think you stop fining hospitals for under-performing on targets that

:48:28.:48:32.

are impossible, stop telling them they are subject to rigorous cost

:48:33.:48:37.

improvements because you have got to save money and stop saying to

:48:38.:48:42.

clinical groups you have got to find resources elsewhere. I worked with

:48:43.:48:47.

the NHS in 23 years, I left in February and I'm devastated by the

:48:48.:48:51.

mess it's in. What exactly are you saying you would do? Abandon

:48:52.:48:56.

targets? No, I don't think you abandon targets, you abandon any

:48:57.:48:59.

fine that comes by failing that target.

:49:00.:49:03.

Caroline Lucas? I want to simply say that we are the sixth richest

:49:04.:49:07.

country in the world and we ought to be able to fund our Health Service

:49:08.:49:11.

and social care service so that our older people in particular are not

:49:12.:49:15.

left facing a question of whether or not they can afford a cancer

:49:16.:49:19.

treatment or a young person affording IVF treatment. We should

:49:20.:49:22.

be able to have a proper, sustainable health system. That

:49:23.:49:25.

means putting more money into it because the figures from the King's

:49:26.:49:28.

Fund are shocking, saying in the last Parliament the annual real

:49:29.:49:32.

increase was the smallest in real terms since the Second World War in

:49:33.:49:36.

terms of money going into the NHS. Would you put up taxation? I would

:49:37.:49:40.

be happy to put that up to pay for that. But do you agree with Jacob

:49:41.:49:47.

that there's no more money to put taxes up? I would be very worried if

:49:48.:49:55.

I agreed with Jacob. In the news today the 43p cancer drug is not

:49:56.:49:58.

available, because it's not clear which part of the NHS will fund it.

:49:59.:50:04.

That's down to Lansley's hated health and social care Act which has

:50:05.:50:08.

marketised the NHS so much more, it's fragmented it so much more,

:50:09.:50:12.

nobody knows about which bit is going to be paying for which

:50:13.:50:15.

treatment. It's a complete chaotic mess so please can this Commission,

:50:16.:50:18.

as well as looking at the funding for the NHS, please roll back that

:50:19.:50:23.

privatisation, that marketisation under Andrew Lansley. It's not

:50:24.:50:26.

worked and it's not serving people of this country.

:50:27.:50:29.

APPLAUSE. You, Sir? Green shirt. I think for

:50:30.:50:38.

me, the answer's quite clear. I mean there's large corporations which

:50:39.:50:40.

avoid massive amounts of money and all that money could go straight to

:50:41.:50:44.

the NHS. I don't understand why is Government is not doing anything to

:50:45.:50:49.

do with the large corporations. There is billions of pounds. You,

:50:50.:50:55.

there? I have an NHS funded IVF baby and I for one would pay more tax to

:50:56.:50:59.

make sure that everybody else has that opportunity.

:51:00.:51:04.

APPLAUSE. You in the white? Can I just say, I

:51:05.:51:11.

think there is a simple answer, believe it or not, to this. The NHS

:51:12.:51:20.

chief executives earn huge fantastical salaries and quite

:51:21.:51:23.

honestly, some of them can't cut the mustard. Absolutely.

:51:24.:51:27.

APPLAUSE. Hang on, and if they reduced some of

:51:28.:51:33.

those ridiculous salaries that we'll never even dream of, that money can

:51:34.:51:39.

well go towards mental health - that is really what's needed here.

:51:40.:51:41.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. Yeah!

:51:42.:51:47.

And you, I said I would come to you? The woman in yellow, your turn?

:51:48.:51:56.

Briefly? I've got at the moment a husband on dialysis three times a

:51:57.:52:01.

week and my feeling towards the NHS at the moment is that two thirds of

:52:02.:52:05.

the money goes towards salaries, pensions, bonuses and perks and the

:52:06.:52:11.

rest is on the patients because dialysis patients are having their

:52:12.:52:18.

time reduced that they need to live because nurses have to go home. It's

:52:19.:52:21.

happened to my husband and it's happened to a heck of a lot on the

:52:22.:52:25.

unit. They reduce the time so that the nurse can go home. So who is the

:52:26.:52:32.

NHS working for? The patient or the staff?

:52:33.:52:34.

I'm sorry, but that is what is happening.

:52:35.:52:38.

Just picking up on the lady's point. We've got to ends the rewards for

:52:39.:52:43.

failure. The Chief Executive of southern health has a remuneration

:52:44.:52:46.

package close to a quarter of a million, he's been put into a job.

:52:47.:52:51.

Sidelined into another job. Three weeks ago and she wasn't even

:52:52.:52:55.

interviewed for it. At the same time, mental health patients lose

:52:56.:52:58.

out. They are suffering discrimination within our NHS. They

:52:59.:53:02.

do not have the same right to get treatment on time. Patient first. We

:53:03.:53:10.

need to end that. Jacob, you say they are giving enough money to the

:53:11.:53:15.

NHS but we are planning to spend a reducing amount of our national

:53:16.:53:18.

income on health at a time when demand is rising rapidly. That makes

:53:19.:53:22.

no sense whenever you are on the political spectrum. Let Jacob answer

:53:23.:53:26.

that, then one more question before we end. Briefly? The only way to

:53:27.:53:29.

provide more money for the Mays is to grow the economy. If you just put

:53:30.:53:34.

taxes up you risk shrinking the economy. It is an absolute wrong

:53:35.:53:43.

thing to do. This 38% limit was not reached when Harold Wilson was Prime

:53:44.:53:47.

Minister at 98%. Focus on prevention... Increasing taxation is

:53:48.:53:51.

absolutely not the answer. All right. We've got You are talking

:53:52.:53:55.

about the bureaucracy. At the moment we are spending... Well, we have

:53:56.:54:01.

halved... Let's have some order here. Liz, stop, please, if you

:54:02.:54:06.

would just for a moment. You have your say? Cut the bureaucracy and

:54:07.:54:13.

all the layers of bureaucracy that contracts have to go through. If you

:54:14.:54:17.

get rid of all of that, all the hoops people have to jump through,

:54:18.:54:21.

then maybe that would free up a lot of money. We've got a couple of

:54:22.:54:26.

minutes left. A very distinguished panel here. An election coming up in

:54:27.:54:30.

the United States, debates on Monday, we have a question from

:54:31.:54:36.

Thomas Swindon burn, two minutes to answer you but let's hear your

:54:37.:54:40.

question. What impact would a President Trump have on the UK? Very

:54:41.:54:44.

brief answers. You can't give a short answer really and make sense

:54:45.:54:49.

but Jacob, you were said to be a supporter of Trump. You were saying

:54:50.:54:59.

that you would vote Republican. It's not wise for politicians to be rude

:55:00.:55:05.

about potential foreign leaders. I think... I think he could be

:55:06.:55:10.

President... It would be a total disaster.

:55:11.:55:15.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. And it is overwhelmingly in the

:55:16.:55:18.

British national interest to get on with the President of the United

:55:19.:55:23.

States, whoever that is, in a dangerous world. Our most important

:55:24.:55:27.

allie is the United States. We are not picking that President, it's

:55:28.:55:30.

being picked by Americans, according to their own democratic processes. I

:55:31.:55:33.

have confidence in the American people to choose their own

:55:34.:55:37.

President. It's not for me to second guess them. But it is for the

:55:38.:55:40.

British and in the British interest to get on with whoever is the

:55:41.:55:43.

President of the United States. APPLAUSE.

:55:44.:55:49.

Julia Hartley-Brewer. Very quickly? I have to say, we have had lots of

:55:50.:55:52.

health concerns about Hillary Clinton. I would sooner vote for her

:55:53.:55:57.

in a coma than Donald Trump wide-awake.

:55:58.:56:01.

APPLAUSE. I think we have to start a new

:56:02.:56:06.

civilisation somewhere else. Caroline Lucas? It's a devastating

:56:07.:56:10.

prospect and this idea that we need the get on with the President of the

:56:11.:56:13.

US whoever they are, we seen what happened when we did that with

:56:14.:56:16.

George Bush and the outcome wasn't very good so...

:56:17.:56:21.

APPLAUSE. Liz Kendall? He said he doesn't want

:56:22.:56:26.

to allow Muslims in the country, he said he's going to build a wall

:56:27.:56:30.

against the Mexicans, he wants to turn his back on the world. It would

:56:31.:56:34.

be a disaster for the world For us? And for us, yes, because we stand up

:56:35.:56:38.

for the values of facialness and we do not have the kind of casual

:56:39.:56:42.

racism we seed from Donald Trump. Norman Lamb? It's so bad that even

:56:43.:56:48.

George W Bush is voting for Hillary Clinton, for foodness sake. You Mr

:56:49.:56:55.

Swingburn? We have always had a special relationship with America

:56:56.:56:59.

and also the EU and it's time we had a special relationship with the

:57:00.:57:03.

world. Hear, hear. On that happy note, we end.

:57:04.:57:12.

We're in Boston, Lincolnshire next week.

:57:13.:57:16.

Boston had the highest Brexit vote in the UK at 75.6%.

:57:17.:57:19.

With us we'll have Priti Patel for the Tories, Emily Thornberry

:57:20.:57:22.

for Labour, Bonnie Greer and Rod Liddle.

:57:23.:57:24.

We'll be in Neath, South Wales the following week.

:57:25.:57:28.

Come and join us, Boston or Neath, go to our website,

:57:29.:57:32.

If you are listening tonight on Radio 5Live, welcome back!

:57:33.:57:49.

And the debate goes on there in Question Time Extra Time.

:57:50.:57:53.

From Sutton Coldfield, until next week, Goodnight

:57:54.:58:33.

50 years ago, they became superstars in astronomy,

:58:34.:58:36.

They represent the most productive period astronomy has ever had.

:58:37.:58:42.

And now, they're taking an anniversary trip.

:58:43.:58:46.

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Sutton Coldfield. On the panel are Conservative Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, Labour's Liz Kendall MP, Green Party leader Caroline Lucas MP, Liberal Democrat Norman Lamb MP, and broadcaster and columnist Julia Hartley-Brewer.


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