Browse content similar to 29/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Welcome to this week's Question Time, | 0:00:02 | 0:00:04 | |
which comes from Boston in Lincolnshire, | 0:00:04 | 0:00:06 | |
the town which recorded the highest Brexit vote in the UK. | 0:00:06 | 0:00:09 | |
On our panel tonight, we have | 0:00:17 | 0:00:19 | |
the Conservative International Development Secretary, Priti Patel, | 0:00:19 | 0:00:23 | |
Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary, Richard Burgon, | 0:00:23 | 0:00:27 | |
Ukip's MEP spokesman on migration, Steven Woolfe, | 0:00:27 | 0:00:32 | |
the playwright and novelist Bonnie Greer, | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
who once wrote an opera about being on Question Time, | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
and the columnist for the Sun and the Spectator, Rod Liddle. | 0:00:37 | 0:00:41 | |
Thank you very much. I'm delighted to have Richard Burgon here. | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
He replaces Emily Thornbury, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
who was going to be here but has gone to Israel | 0:01:04 | 0:01:06 | |
for Shimon Peres's funeral. | 0:01:06 | 0:01:07 | |
Now, remember, as ever, | 0:01:07 | 0:01:09 | |
you can join in this debate | 0:01:09 | 0:01:10 | |
as it gets going | 0:01:10 | 0:01:12 | |
on Facebook and Twitter, | 0:01:12 | 0:01:14 | |
or you can text us... | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
Do get involved. | 0:01:17 | 0:01:19 | |
A question to start with | 0:01:19 | 0:01:20 | |
from Alex Law, please. Mr Law. | 0:01:20 | 0:01:23 | |
Is Jeremy Corbyn out of touch | 0:01:23 | 0:01:25 | |
with communities like Boston | 0:01:25 | 0:01:26 | |
on the subject | 0:01:26 | 0:01:27 | |
of unlimited immigration? | 0:01:27 | 0:01:29 | |
Jeremy Corbyn, who said famously, | 0:01:29 | 0:01:33 | |
we need to maintain free movement | 0:01:33 | 0:01:35 | |
across our borders. | 0:01:35 | 0:01:36 | |
Is he out of touch with communities like where we are here in Boston? | 0:01:36 | 0:01:40 | |
Rod Liddle? | 0:01:40 | 0:01:41 | |
Well, yes, he is, of course. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:43 | |
I think it was 78.1% voted in Boston | 0:01:43 | 0:01:47 | |
to leave the European Union, | 0:01:47 | 0:01:49 | |
and immigration was | 0:01:49 | 0:01:51 | |
a substantial part of that reason. | 0:01:51 | 0:01:53 | |
And of course, 70% of the population, | 0:01:53 | 0:01:56 | |
we know from opinion polls, are opposed or want more controls | 0:01:56 | 0:02:00 | |
on immigration, and more than 50% want immigration stopped entirely. | 0:02:00 | 0:02:04 | |
So, yes, of course he is out of touch. | 0:02:04 | 0:02:07 | |
I mean, bless the bloke, he's not just out of touch on | 0:02:07 | 0:02:09 | |
immigration, if we are absolutely honest, and it's... | 0:02:09 | 0:02:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:02:13 | 0:02:15 | |
And it's not just Jeremy. | 0:02:18 | 0:02:20 | |
I mean, if you looked at the Labour Party conference this week, | 0:02:20 | 0:02:23 | |
and I watched it with despair, | 0:02:23 | 0:02:26 | |
as a mountain of hypocrisy and self-regard, Diane Abbott, | 0:02:26 | 0:02:30 | |
stood up and said that anyone who voted, the people who voted | 0:02:30 | 0:02:33 | |
for Brexit, were bigots and didn't like the look of foreign people. | 0:02:33 | 0:02:39 | |
You're meant to be reaching out to new voters! | 0:02:39 | 0:02:44 | |
That's 52% of the electorate, Diane, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:46 | |
who are not going to vote for you, all right? | 0:02:46 | 0:02:48 | |
52%, you've labelled bigots. | 0:02:48 | 0:02:50 | |
Then, Shami Chakrabarti gets up and says, | 0:02:50 | 0:02:53 | |
"Oh, don't leave me alone in this country with Essex Man." | 0:02:53 | 0:02:57 | |
And the snobbery and disdain and loathing | 0:02:57 | 0:03:03 | |
that the London left in the Labour Party has for ordinary, | 0:03:03 | 0:03:08 | |
working people is remarkable. | 0:03:08 | 0:03:10 | |
The party that was once the party of the working class. | 0:03:10 | 0:03:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:03:14 | 0:03:15 | |
Richard Burgon. | 0:03:20 | 0:03:22 | |
Now, I'm on the left, I'm not | 0:03:22 | 0:03:24 | |
from London, I do... | 0:03:24 | 0:03:25 | |
I'm from Leeds. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:27 | |
I do believe it's really important | 0:03:27 | 0:03:29 | |
that people in Westminster | 0:03:29 | 0:03:31 | |
don't patronise people in Boston | 0:03:31 | 0:03:33 | |
or anywhere else, | 0:03:33 | 0:03:35 | |
so I am totally resistant to | 0:03:35 | 0:03:37 | |
any idea of the Westminster elite | 0:03:37 | 0:03:39 | |
trying to wriggle out of the message that the British people sent | 0:03:39 | 0:03:44 | |
in the European Union referendum. | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
On the subject of immigration, I think we have to understand | 0:03:47 | 0:03:51 | |
it's not as simple as sometimes some of the newspapers make out. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:56 | |
Immigration can be separated into asylum seekers, who we have | 0:03:56 | 0:03:59 | |
a duty to assist, fleeing death, torture and persecution, | 0:03:59 | 0:04:04 | |
immigrants who wish to stay here for the rest of their lives, | 0:04:04 | 0:04:07 | |
then the free movement of labour under the European Union. | 0:04:07 | 0:04:10 | |
Jeremy Corbyn, in his conference speech, | 0:04:10 | 0:04:13 | |
did address these issues, | 0:04:13 | 0:04:15 | |
and what some people forget is that when Jeremy Corbyn said in | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
his speech - and he said it before - | 0:04:18 | 0:04:20 | |
that he's very concerned about free movement of labour being used | 0:04:20 | 0:04:24 | |
by unscrupulous employers to undercut pay, terms and conditions, | 0:04:24 | 0:04:28 | |
Tony Blair didn't say much about that, | 0:04:28 | 0:04:30 | |
Gordon Brown didn't say much about that, | 0:04:30 | 0:04:33 | |
so he is alert to that. | 0:04:33 | 0:04:35 | |
And also, the Conservative Government abolished | 0:04:35 | 0:04:38 | |
the Migration Impact Fund, which is meant to help areas like Boston, | 0:04:38 | 0:04:43 | |
that have a large share of immigrants coming to it. | 0:04:43 | 0:04:47 | |
And Labour, as Jeremy said in his speech the other day, | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
will restore the Migration Impact Fund. | 0:04:50 | 0:04:52 | |
So I actually think Jeremy is more alert to this. | 0:04:52 | 0:04:55 | |
-And one last thing on this issue... -You think he's in tune with Boston? | 0:04:55 | 0:04:57 | |
Well, that's for the people of Boston to decide | 0:04:57 | 0:05:00 | |
at the next general election, it's not for me to speak for Boston. | 0:05:00 | 0:05:03 | |
But I believe in the bread-and-butter issues | 0:05:03 | 0:05:05 | |
of needing more council houses, needing more affordable homes, | 0:05:05 | 0:05:08 | |
needing a real living wage that is meaningful, | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
needing a situation where your children and grandchildren go | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
to university without being saddled with £30,000 of debt and more. | 0:05:15 | 0:05:18 | |
I think he is in touch on those bread-and-butter issues. | 0:05:18 | 0:05:21 | |
You, sir? | 0:05:21 | 0:05:22 | |
I completely agree with what the gentleman on the right... | 0:05:24 | 0:05:27 | |
-Sorry, I don't know your name! -Rod Liddle? This one? | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
-No, not the Labour one. -Richard. -The one on the right, over... -Me? | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
Yes, you. You mentioned about hypocrisy. | 0:05:34 | 0:05:38 | |
This is a common theme with leftists, very hypocritical people. | 0:05:38 | 0:05:42 | |
They'll espouse, "You've got to be tolerant, | 0:05:42 | 0:05:44 | |
"you've got to be very tolerant towards everyone | 0:05:44 | 0:05:47 | |
"and tolerant towards people's views." | 0:05:47 | 0:05:49 | |
But if they disagree with your views, | 0:05:49 | 0:05:51 | |
they are very intolerant towards your views. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:53 | |
I'm very interested in this, the psychology behind it, | 0:05:53 | 0:05:57 | |
with leftists, I would term it, under the diagnostic, | 0:05:57 | 0:06:00 | |
statistical manual of mental disorders, | 0:06:00 | 0:06:02 | |
I would include socialist delusional disorder... | 0:06:02 | 0:06:05 | |
Can I just... | 0:06:05 | 0:06:07 | |
I would put it in with mental disorders. | 0:06:07 | 0:06:09 | |
Because the hypocrisy is unbelievable, | 0:06:09 | 0:06:12 | |
from a lot of people, but on the left side. | 0:06:12 | 0:06:15 | |
Socialist disillusionment...? | 0:06:15 | 0:06:17 | |
-Socialist delusional disorder. -Go on. | 0:06:17 | 0:06:20 | |
It does rather sound like a caricature of | 0:06:20 | 0:06:23 | |
the Stalinist Soviet Union, | 0:06:23 | 0:06:25 | |
where people with the wrong political beliefs are being | 0:06:25 | 0:06:28 | |
carted away and diagnosed as being politically or | 0:06:28 | 0:06:31 | |
medically suspect, so I do take objection to that. | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
Yeah, well, you will, because you're Labour, aren't you? | 0:06:34 | 0:06:37 | |
Steven Woolfe. | 0:06:40 | 0:06:42 | |
-Steven Woolfe. -Couldn't have expressed it any better myself. | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
The thing about Corbyn is, | 0:06:47 | 0:06:49 | |
I respect the man for having opinions or views of his own | 0:06:49 | 0:06:53 | |
and challenging those within | 0:06:53 | 0:06:54 | |
his own party to lead that party. | 0:06:54 | 0:06:58 | |
But on this particular issue, | 0:06:58 | 0:07:00 | |
all I can say about him is that he is reckless, | 0:07:00 | 0:07:04 | |
he is irresponsible and he is selfish. | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
It's selfish for a man to say that "I'm relaxed about the numbers | 0:07:07 | 0:07:11 | |
"of migrants in this country, | 0:07:11 | 0:07:13 | |
"and I'm not concerned about the numbers whatsoever." | 0:07:13 | 0:07:16 | |
It is easy to be relaxed if you live in a £1 million house | 0:07:16 | 0:07:19 | |
in a nice, comfortable zone in London. | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
It's easy to be relaxed | 0:07:22 | 0:07:24 | |
if you have a salary provided by you in this audience. | 0:07:24 | 0:07:26 | |
It's easy to be relaxed if you are going to have a pension | 0:07:26 | 0:07:29 | |
that most people in this country would dream about. | 0:07:29 | 0:07:32 | |
Whilst here, at the Pilgrims Hospital, | 0:07:32 | 0:07:33 | |
you're having to queue into the early hours to get seen, | 0:07:33 | 0:07:35 | |
while you've got 4,000 new houses having to be built | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
to command the number of people having to come here, | 0:07:38 | 0:07:40 | |
while you've got the rising crime in this area, | 0:07:40 | 0:07:42 | |
while people can't get into schools, all the same sort of things, | 0:07:42 | 0:07:45 | |
Richard, you and I agree need to be dealt with. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:48 | |
And you cannot deal with immigration in this country, | 0:07:48 | 0:07:50 | |
to create an ethical, fair migration policy, | 0:07:50 | 0:07:53 | |
without a visa system that controls | 0:07:53 | 0:07:55 | |
the numbers of people coming into this country, | 0:07:55 | 0:07:57 | |
because you will never know what services you have. | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
And you will never know... | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
You will never know how much money you will need to provide for | 0:08:05 | 0:08:08 | |
those services, and you will never know how much...the migration fund | 0:08:08 | 0:08:11 | |
that you require, if you can't get a grip of that first. | 0:08:11 | 0:08:14 | |
But without immigration, you can't maintain our NHS either. | 0:08:14 | 0:08:17 | |
Now, that is where you come to a very dignified point, | 0:08:17 | 0:08:20 | |
and I accept that. | 0:08:20 | 0:08:21 | |
Everybody in this audience, including our party, | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
and if you read my policy, I've made it clear, | 0:08:23 | 0:08:26 | |
migration into this country is necessary and important. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
All we have ever simply said is we must not have | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
uncontrolled mass migration, because it pushes down wages. | 0:08:32 | 0:08:35 | |
Steven, thank you. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:36 | |
We'll hear from one or two more members of our audience, | 0:08:40 | 0:08:42 | |
then we'll move on. Yes? | 0:08:42 | 0:08:43 | |
The Labour MP said that Jeremy Corbyn wants to listen to | 0:08:43 | 0:08:47 | |
the British people. | 0:08:47 | 0:08:49 | |
But he's not actually listening to the PLP, | 0:08:49 | 0:08:52 | |
who are, in fact, elected by the British people. | 0:08:52 | 0:08:56 | |
Right now, he's talking about deselecting them, | 0:08:56 | 0:08:59 | |
or people who are supporting him are talking about deselecting them. | 0:08:59 | 0:09:03 | |
That doesn't sound to me like he's listening to anybody, | 0:09:03 | 0:09:06 | |
apart from himself and 330-odd people that are part | 0:09:06 | 0:09:10 | |
of the membership, I don't know. | 0:09:10 | 0:09:14 | |
So, the elected MPs are not ruling Labour's roost, | 0:09:14 | 0:09:16 | |
-is what you're really saying. -Well... | 0:09:16 | 0:09:19 | |
Hold that for a moment, let me just hear from one or two others. | 0:09:19 | 0:09:21 | |
You in the middle, with the spectacles on. | 0:09:21 | 0:09:24 | |
Mr Woolfe, you just asked about how Jeremy Corbyn finds it easy | 0:09:24 | 0:09:26 | |
to relax while he's sitting in a luxury house in London, | 0:09:26 | 0:09:29 | |
not worrying about immigration. | 0:09:29 | 0:09:33 | |
It's also easy for us to relax when we have immigrants here, | 0:09:33 | 0:09:35 | |
because of uncontrolled immigration, | 0:09:35 | 0:09:37 | |
who are doing the work in the fields that we don't want to do. | 0:09:37 | 0:09:39 | |
If we were to cut uncontrolled immigration, then those fields | 0:09:39 | 0:09:42 | |
would be empty and we wouldn't have the economy in Boston that we do. | 0:09:42 | 0:09:46 | |
-That's absolute nonsense, I'm sorry. That's nonsense. -You, sir? | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
No, that's not right, because the wages... | 0:09:49 | 0:09:54 | |
If you've seen the hideous exploitation which there | 0:09:54 | 0:09:57 | |
has been with these migrant workers coming over here... | 0:09:57 | 0:10:00 | |
There was a horrible case in the paper yesterday of people | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
being paid virtually nothing and living in appalling accommodation. | 0:10:03 | 0:10:06 | |
British workers will not put up with that and they shouldn't. | 0:10:06 | 0:10:12 | |
You, sir? | 0:10:12 | 0:10:14 | |
I heard a discussion on local radio recently, | 0:10:17 | 0:10:20 | |
where it was suggested that Lincolnshire councils are not | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
doing enough to help and re-home, etc, Syrian refugees. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:29 | |
What they also suggested, that we, the people of | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
Lincolnshire in this room, should take them into our houses. | 0:10:32 | 0:10:34 | |
You don't know who you're going to get. | 0:10:34 | 0:10:37 | |
I'm not saying they're all murderers or terrorists or whatever, | 0:10:37 | 0:10:40 | |
but you've no background checks on some of these people, | 0:10:40 | 0:10:43 | |
we just don't know who we're going to get, then to say, | 0:10:43 | 0:10:45 | |
"Well, take them into your houses", I wonder if the people | 0:10:45 | 0:10:47 | |
who are actually saying this and organising this... | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
You're not saying that you're being asked to, but to invite them in... | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
No, you don't have to do it, but they are saying you could do it. | 0:10:52 | 0:10:56 | |
-And it...it's unbelievable. -Priti Patel? | 0:10:56 | 0:11:01 | |
Well, look, I mean, | 0:11:01 | 0:11:03 | |
let me start by answering the question that was put first of all. | 0:11:03 | 0:11:07 | |
In terms of Jeremy Corbyn, I take the view pretty clearly that | 0:11:07 | 0:11:11 | |
he is not listening to the voices | 0:11:11 | 0:11:13 | |
of people here in Boston, | 0:11:13 | 0:11:15 | |
or the electorate that voted | 0:11:15 | 0:11:16 | |
very clearly to take back control | 0:11:16 | 0:11:19 | |
of our borders and our immigration policy, | 0:11:19 | 0:11:21 | |
and I think what we have seen recently, | 0:11:21 | 0:11:24 | |
even people in his own party, | 0:11:24 | 0:11:26 | |
there are Labour MPs who, during the referendum campaign, | 0:11:26 | 0:11:29 | |
were saying that the Labour Party needs to be more in tune with | 0:11:29 | 0:11:32 | |
people out and about, across the country. | 0:11:32 | 0:11:35 | |
And I think it's a terrible reflection, actually, | 0:11:35 | 0:11:38 | |
of Jeremy Corbyn that he still wants to espouse free movement, | 0:11:38 | 0:11:42 | |
but he's in denial in terms of what the British public have said | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
and have voted for, not just in the referendum, | 0:11:46 | 0:11:48 | |
but also, he will not acknowledge the failure of successive | 0:11:48 | 0:11:52 | |
Labour governments when it comes to free movement, | 0:11:52 | 0:11:55 | |
the lack of transitional controls when Eastern European countries | 0:11:55 | 0:11:59 | |
were joining the European Union, | 0:11:59 | 0:12:01 | |
when accession states were joining Europe, and the fact, | 0:12:01 | 0:12:04 | |
quite frankly, that when it came to access to public services, | 0:12:04 | 0:12:07 | |
they were in utter denial about the pressure | 0:12:07 | 0:12:10 | |
that uncontrolled immigration was putting on our public services... | 0:12:10 | 0:12:13 | |
But you don't have much of a record on it, | 0:12:13 | 0:12:15 | |
-you presided over the highest rise... -Well, we do. | 0:12:15 | 0:12:18 | |
The Tory Government... | 0:12:18 | 0:12:20 | |
Net migration is currently at 327,000 a year, I think. | 0:12:20 | 0:12:23 | |
The highest it's ever been. | 0:12:23 | 0:12:24 | |
There are two points I'd like to make. | 0:12:24 | 0:12:26 | |
In the last six years, we have taken measures - | 0:12:26 | 0:12:30 | |
in fact, there's been legislation to stop people from Europe coming to | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
exploit, for example, the benefits system... | 0:12:33 | 0:12:35 | |
So, how come it's at the highest level... | 0:12:35 | 0:12:37 | |
-Third-highest, I think, on record? -..and accessing housing benefit. | 0:12:37 | 0:12:40 | |
But they are not here to take benefits, they are here to work. | 0:12:40 | 0:12:43 | |
These are just measures that we've taken... | 0:12:43 | 0:12:45 | |
Then why have you abolished the Migration Impact Fund? | 0:12:45 | 0:12:47 | |
The other point to make, of course, is that, you know, | 0:12:47 | 0:12:50 | |
this is a complex issue and there is no silver bullet. | 0:12:50 | 0:12:52 | |
You're not going to control numbers overnight. | 0:12:52 | 0:12:54 | |
I think we should all be responsible here, as politicians, | 0:12:54 | 0:12:57 | |
and actually acknowledge that. | 0:12:57 | 0:12:59 | |
There is more that needs to be done, and of course, | 0:12:59 | 0:13:01 | |
the Government will continue to work to get numbers down. | 0:13:01 | 0:13:04 | |
And there is, of course, | 0:13:04 | 0:13:06 | |
the other issue - our focus is that we can commit | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
that once we have left the European Union, | 0:13:09 | 0:13:11 | |
we will be able to take control from the European Union | 0:13:11 | 0:13:15 | |
of the people that will be coming here, | 0:13:15 | 0:13:16 | |
and that is our focus now in government, | 0:13:16 | 0:13:18 | |
when it comes to immigration. | 0:13:18 | 0:13:20 | |
OK, you thought it would work, we'll see whether it does. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:23 | |
The woman there on the right, then I'll come to you, Bonnie. | 0:13:23 | 0:13:25 | |
Yeah, immigration in Boston - it's happened. | 0:13:25 | 0:13:28 | |
You know, Boston is a very, very big town now, we can't send people back, | 0:13:28 | 0:13:33 | |
we're breeding all the time from whatever...corner of the town. | 0:13:33 | 0:13:37 | |
What we need to do, we need to invest heavily | 0:13:37 | 0:13:40 | |
in the frontline services - A&E, EMAS, the police - | 0:13:40 | 0:13:45 | |
because we're struggling so much. | 0:13:45 | 0:13:47 | |
We really need to put some money into those services. | 0:13:47 | 0:13:49 | |
You know, it's happened, immigration, | 0:13:49 | 0:13:52 | |
you can count the numbers all over the place, it's happened. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:54 | |
So, from your point of view, is Jeremy Corbyn out of touch, | 0:13:59 | 0:14:03 | |
or are you saying that the things that Richard Burgon said | 0:14:03 | 0:14:06 | |
is the right reaction? | 0:14:06 | 0:14:08 | |
Yeah, completely out of touch, completely out of touch. | 0:14:08 | 0:14:11 | |
But it's the Conservative Government who are hellbent on making cuts | 0:14:11 | 0:14:15 | |
to public services in places like Boston and across the country, | 0:14:15 | 0:14:18 | |
and we do need an end to austerity cuts, | 0:14:18 | 0:14:21 | |
because that's causing real problems for working-class people | 0:14:21 | 0:14:23 | |
in Boston and everywhere else, too. | 0:14:23 | 0:14:25 | |
But Richard, it was your government who let people come in | 0:14:25 | 0:14:28 | |
without any provision for public services and didn't even | 0:14:28 | 0:14:31 | |
acknowledge the type of numbers that were coming in. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:33 | |
Bonnie Greer. | 0:14:33 | 0:14:34 | |
I'm not a politician | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
and I'm the only immigrant on this panel, so... | 0:14:36 | 0:14:41 | |
I'm not going to come up | 0:14:41 | 0:14:42 | |
with any policy stuff, | 0:14:42 | 0:14:43 | |
I don't know all of this. | 0:14:43 | 0:14:45 | |
It seems to me, looking at it, | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
that first of all, this town, and maybe this region, | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
has been left on its own. | 0:14:50 | 0:14:52 | |
-I don't understand why... -APPLAUSE | 0:14:52 | 0:14:56 | |
I don't understand why and I think it has to do with both parties, | 0:14:57 | 0:15:03 | |
or maybe three parties, I don't understand why this happened. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:06 | |
That's the first thing. | 0:15:06 | 0:15:08 | |
The second thing is that... | 0:15:08 | 0:15:12 | |
We all know that we all live in an ageing society. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:15 | |
Our country, this country - | 0:15:15 | 0:15:17 | |
and I'm a citizen of this country, so I say "our" - | 0:15:17 | 0:15:19 | |
is getting older and if we look at the example of Japan right now, | 0:15:19 | 0:15:24 | |
which has very little immigration, | 0:15:24 | 0:15:26 | |
the Japanese economy is in deep trouble | 0:15:26 | 0:15:28 | |
because they're not replacing human beings, | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
so there's an economic argument for immigration. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:37 | |
I don't know how you want to do it, how you want to make it work, | 0:15:37 | 0:15:40 | |
but you need folks in here, | 0:15:40 | 0:15:42 | |
because the country is getting older. | 0:15:42 | 0:15:45 | |
-That's unsustainable, Bonnie. -No, no, it is... | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
You can't just keep bringing young people in every few years. | 0:15:48 | 0:15:51 | |
I didn't say... I didn't give an answer, I'm telling you a reality. | 0:15:51 | 0:15:56 | |
That is a reality. | 0:15:56 | 0:15:57 | |
Now, it would seem to me that any party in charge | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
has to look at the reality, the economic base | 0:16:01 | 0:16:05 | |
and future of the country, | 0:16:05 | 0:16:07 | |
and the fact that we're going to have an enormous amount | 0:16:07 | 0:16:09 | |
of pensioners who will not be able to be taken care of. | 0:16:09 | 0:16:13 | |
But the third thing I want to say - | 0:16:13 | 0:16:15 | |
and this is a harsh thing to say, but it's the truth - | 0:16:15 | 0:16:20 | |
we're a migratory species, we human beings, and we move. | 0:16:20 | 0:16:24 | |
We move to better ourselves, we move to go and find things we need, | 0:16:24 | 0:16:30 | |
we've always moved, we will continue to move. | 0:16:30 | 0:16:33 | |
This town of Boston is the second Boston I've been in. | 0:16:33 | 0:16:37 | |
The first one is in Massachusetts, | 0:16:37 | 0:16:39 | |
and people from your town founded that town, | 0:16:39 | 0:16:44 | |
and they founded it because | 0:16:44 | 0:16:46 | |
they wanted to have a better life and they moved. | 0:16:46 | 0:16:49 | |
-And Boston... -APPLAUSE | 0:16:49 | 0:16:52 | |
Listen, I'm not being flippant about this. | 0:16:52 | 0:16:56 | |
I respect everything you're saying, but I think we need to move away | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
from these political... | 0:17:00 | 0:17:02 | |
Because the political parties, particularly the Conservative Party, | 0:17:02 | 0:17:06 | |
which has actually had a mano a mano within itself | 0:17:06 | 0:17:10 | |
for the last, maybe, 20 years, over Europe, | 0:17:10 | 0:17:13 | |
and now Ukip is eating their lunch, | 0:17:13 | 0:17:15 | |
basically, is a lot of what is happening here as well. | 0:17:15 | 0:17:20 | |
But your town and your concerns need to be addressed, | 0:17:20 | 0:17:25 | |
and we also have to understand the realities of human movement | 0:17:25 | 0:17:28 | |
and the fact that we're in the biggest surge of humanity | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
since the Second World War. | 0:17:32 | 0:17:33 | |
And just to go back to what Jeremy Corbyn said, that we need to | 0:17:33 | 0:17:37 | |
maintain free movement, do you agree with that? | 0:17:37 | 0:17:39 | |
Or do you think that, on that particular point, | 0:17:39 | 0:17:41 | |
Jeremy Corbyn is out of touch with the opinions of people who, | 0:17:41 | 0:17:45 | |
for instance, who voted Brexit, | 0:17:45 | 0:17:47 | |
a large number of whom are here in Boston? | 0:17:47 | 0:17:49 | |
Well, I think, you know, I'm a passionate Remainer, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:51 | |
but I believe in the people have spoken, | 0:17:51 | 0:17:55 | |
and, if the people have spoken, the people's will must be done. | 0:17:55 | 0:17:58 | |
-Yeah. -However, however... | 0:17:58 | 0:18:00 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:18:00 | 0:18:02 | |
..and I'm not a Corbynista, or whatever that is, | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
but I want to say that, it seems to me that a leader is also | 0:18:06 | 0:18:11 | |
someone who has an idea about something, | 0:18:11 | 0:18:13 | |
a vision about something. | 0:18:13 | 0:18:15 | |
This is Jeremy Corbyn's idea. | 0:18:15 | 0:18:17 | |
Now, if he's out of touch with you, that's another point, | 0:18:17 | 0:18:21 | |
that's work he has to do, | 0:18:21 | 0:18:23 | |
but he has the right and we demand that | 0:18:23 | 0:18:26 | |
he has an idea of this country and what it should do. | 0:18:26 | 0:18:30 | |
Freedom of movement, if we are going to have any sort of relationship | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
with the rest of the world, | 0:18:34 | 0:18:36 | |
particularly with Europe, has to be something that's thought about. | 0:18:36 | 0:18:39 | |
Thank you very much. You in the back, there. | 0:18:39 | 0:18:41 | |
I'd like to agree with the lady at the back, there, and Richard. | 0:18:41 | 0:18:46 | |
Jeremy Corbyn's Government would be the only Government | 0:18:46 | 0:18:50 | |
to invest in communities and put money into areas | 0:18:50 | 0:18:53 | |
where there has been high levels of migration - | 0:18:53 | 0:18:57 | |
he'd invest in that. | 0:18:57 | 0:18:58 | |
I can't see a Tory Government investing and putting money | 0:18:58 | 0:19:01 | |
into the public services that people need. | 0:19:01 | 0:19:03 | |
All right, and the woman in the front row here? | 0:19:03 | 0:19:06 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:06 | 0:19:07 | |
-Yes? -The only people to blame for this is the Government. | 0:19:07 | 0:19:12 | |
Where did they expect, all these migrants coming over, | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
where were they going to put 'em? | 0:19:17 | 0:19:19 | |
I've got grown-up children. | 0:19:19 | 0:19:21 | |
They can't get a place, a council place. | 0:19:21 | 0:19:23 | |
My daughter was actually told, | 0:19:23 | 0:19:25 | |
"Come back and see us, 10, 15 years." | 0:19:25 | 0:19:29 | |
This went back well over ten years ago. | 0:19:29 | 0:19:32 | |
My daughter couldn't go to the local school, | 0:19:32 | 0:19:35 | |
cos there was a high influx of migrants, | 0:19:35 | 0:19:39 | |
so she had to go about 18 miles away. | 0:19:39 | 0:19:42 | |
I had to pay £5.60 a day for her to go to that school, | 0:19:42 | 0:19:48 | |
when a local school was two or three minutes round the corner, | 0:19:48 | 0:19:52 | |
but because... | 0:19:52 | 0:19:53 | |
And what I'm trying to say, ten years ago, | 0:19:53 | 0:19:56 | |
they knew about this, and ten years on... | 0:19:56 | 0:20:00 | |
Where do you put these people? They never did nothing. | 0:20:00 | 0:20:04 | |
Priti Patel. | 0:20:04 | 0:20:05 | |
I think this comes to the point that, over a period of time, | 0:20:05 | 0:20:09 | |
previous Governments simply failed to acknowledge, | 0:20:09 | 0:20:13 | |
and these were Labour Governments as well... | 0:20:13 | 0:20:15 | |
But these Governments, you all say the same, | 0:20:15 | 0:20:17 | |
no matter who gets in power, | 0:20:17 | 0:20:19 | |
-you're going to do this... -APPLAUSE | 0:20:19 | 0:20:21 | |
..you're going to do that, and then the next one in power, | 0:20:21 | 0:20:26 | |
they say, "Get us in. We'll do that, we'll do that." | 0:20:26 | 0:20:30 | |
You don't do nothing whatsoever. | 0:20:30 | 0:20:32 | |
Well, in terms of controlling immigration, | 0:20:32 | 0:20:34 | |
there was uncontrolled immigration under Labour and I think, | 0:20:34 | 0:20:37 | |
actually, Richard needs to acknowledge that. | 0:20:37 | 0:20:39 | |
There still is, Priti! | 0:20:39 | 0:20:40 | |
But also, in terms of transitional controls, | 0:20:40 | 0:20:42 | |
there were no transitional controls under Labour, | 0:20:42 | 0:20:44 | |
it was us Conservatives who put them in, but the reality is - | 0:20:44 | 0:20:47 | |
and you've just highlighted this yourself - | 0:20:47 | 0:20:49 | |
people came in, there were no controls, | 0:20:49 | 0:20:51 | |
and that amounted to successive pressure on public services, | 0:20:51 | 0:20:55 | |
and so the point is, politicians are now responding to, | 0:20:55 | 0:20:59 | |
quite rightly, the anxieties and the concerns | 0:20:59 | 0:21:01 | |
and the real strain and pressure that we are seeing | 0:21:01 | 0:21:04 | |
across the country, | 0:21:04 | 0:21:06 | |
and I was out during the referendum campaign every day, | 0:21:06 | 0:21:09 | |
travelling the country, and this was the number one issue | 0:21:09 | 0:21:12 | |
that came up in terms of pressures on public services | 0:21:12 | 0:21:14 | |
and how communities felt disenfranchised | 0:21:14 | 0:21:17 | |
from the political leaders in Westminster, | 0:21:17 | 0:21:20 | |
who they quite categorically said were doing | 0:21:20 | 0:21:22 | |
nothing about addressing these concerns, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:24 | |
so, going back to Labour, this just shows how out of touch Labour are, | 0:21:24 | 0:21:28 | |
how out of touch Jeremy Corbyn is, but also, the fact is, | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
we've had the referendum, we are committed now, in Government, | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
to get on and do the right thing and deliver Brexit | 0:21:35 | 0:21:38 | |
and get on with the immigration control that's needed. | 0:21:38 | 0:21:42 | |
We have to wait for yous to decide when we leave the EU. | 0:21:42 | 0:21:47 | |
We'll come to that question in just a second. | 0:21:47 | 0:21:49 | |
I want to go to the woman on the right. | 0:21:49 | 0:21:50 | |
No, you've spoken already. | 0:21:50 | 0:21:52 | |
We're going to the woman up there, in the third row from the back. | 0:21:52 | 0:21:55 | |
Eric Pickles axed the Migration Impact Fund in 2010 | 0:21:55 | 0:22:01 | |
and the Tory Party has been complacent | 0:22:01 | 0:22:04 | |
about levels of immigration ever since | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
and, erm...they've just been completely complacent. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:11 | |
OK. Rod, do you want to come in | 0:22:11 | 0:22:13 | |
and then we'll move on to the next question? | 0:22:13 | 0:22:15 | |
My point was just addressing the original question, | 0:22:15 | 0:22:17 | |
is Jeremy out of touch? | 0:22:17 | 0:22:19 | |
He is at - and think of it - | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
26% Labour is in the opinion polls at the moment. | 0:22:21 | 0:22:25 | |
That's below Michael Foot in the 1983 general election, | 0:22:25 | 0:22:30 | |
meant to be the nadir of all Labour performances, when... | 0:22:30 | 0:22:34 | |
Well, "out of touch" doesn't mean he's wrong, Rod. This man... | 0:22:34 | 0:22:36 | |
Hang on, just let me finish. | 0:22:36 | 0:22:39 | |
When Labour was actually up against a woman, | 0:22:39 | 0:22:43 | |
a Prime Minister who'd won a popular war, | 0:22:43 | 0:22:45 | |
and a credible opposition in the SDP as well, | 0:22:45 | 0:22:48 | |
at 26% and with a popularity rating and an approval rating of -100. | 0:22:48 | 0:22:55 | |
-Even I struggle to get that! -What this town is asking... | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:22:59 | 0:23:00 | |
-Let me bring Labour in on this. -He is wildly out of touch | 0:23:00 | 0:23:03 | |
and the bubble gets smaller and smaller and they wrap | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
themselves in it and they don't give a monkey's what people | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
outside that bubble think. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:11 | |
Richard Burgon, you are... APPLAUSE | 0:23:11 | 0:23:15 | |
I'm going to go... When we've had an answer from him, | 0:23:15 | 0:23:17 | |
I'm going to go on, cos we want to talk about Brexit, | 0:23:17 | 0:23:19 | |
but just on Corbyn and what Rod Liddle has said. | 0:23:19 | 0:23:23 | |
Well, in Jeremy Corbyn's speech at the party conference | 0:23:23 | 0:23:25 | |
in Liverpool the other day, | 0:23:25 | 0:23:27 | |
he did say that we have an electoral mountain to climb, | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
and the opinion polls that Rod has outlined | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
show that that's the case, | 0:23:32 | 0:23:34 | |
but I think one of the main reasons for those opinion polls | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
are the last three months | 0:23:37 | 0:23:39 | |
of an unnecessary leadership election. | 0:23:39 | 0:23:41 | |
It's time for Labour to look outward, | 0:23:41 | 0:23:43 | |
take the fight to the Conservatives. | 0:23:43 | 0:23:45 | |
It's also time, on this whole issue of austerity, | 0:23:45 | 0:23:48 | |
this whole issue of cuts and lack of houses, | 0:23:48 | 0:23:51 | |
lack of services, to hold the Government to account | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
for their political choice of making everyone in this audience | 0:23:54 | 0:23:57 | |
pay the price for a bankers' crisis in 2008 that they didn't cause. | 0:23:57 | 0:24:02 | |
It's always someone else's fault, it's always someone else's fault | 0:24:02 | 0:24:05 | |
than the Government's that there isn't enough council housing. | 0:24:05 | 0:24:08 | |
It's always someone else's fault than the Government's | 0:24:08 | 0:24:10 | |
that there aren't enough jobs. | 0:24:10 | 0:24:12 | |
Perhaps it's the Government's fault, perhaps it's their fault, | 0:24:12 | 0:24:14 | |
for making you all pay the price for a crisis that you didn't cause. | 0:24:14 | 0:24:17 | |
All right. Thank you. APPLAUSE | 0:24:17 | 0:24:21 | |
Now, we're going to go on to another question, but just before we do, | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 | |
Neath in South Wales is going to have a visitation from | 0:24:24 | 0:24:27 | |
Question Time next week, and Hendon in North London the week after that. | 0:24:27 | 0:24:32 | |
I'll give the details of how to apply | 0:24:32 | 0:24:34 | |
at the end of the programme again, | 0:24:34 | 0:24:35 | |
but if you have a look on the screen there, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:37 | |
if you'd like to come to Neath or Hendon and have your say, | 0:24:37 | 0:24:40 | |
that's how to do it. | 0:24:40 | 0:24:42 | |
I want a question, please, from Martin Bontoft. Martin Bontoft. | 0:24:42 | 0:24:46 | |
Isn't it time that this Government stopped dithering over Brexit? | 0:24:46 | 0:24:50 | |
Which is what you feel they're doing, presumably. | 0:24:50 | 0:24:52 | |
Yes, I mean, I think we're at a stage where we need some | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
very strong leadership, as much so in my lifetime as any other time. | 0:24:55 | 0:25:00 | |
Steven Woolfe. | 0:25:00 | 0:25:02 | |
The Government has to move rapidly, effectively, | 0:25:02 | 0:25:05 | |
to ensure that the will of the people is complete, | 0:25:05 | 0:25:08 | |
and what the will of the people was, is that we leave Brexit. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:11 | |
I hear these arguments that the 48% versus the 52%. | 0:25:11 | 0:25:16 | |
Well, here in Boston, | 0:25:16 | 0:25:17 | |
you were the 76.5% | 0:25:17 | 0:25:19 | |
and in many of the towns that I campaigned | 0:25:19 | 0:25:21 | |
across the North of England, from Stoke to Lichfield, | 0:25:21 | 0:25:24 | |
to Blackpool to Bury, all of those towns voted in huge numbers | 0:25:24 | 0:25:29 | |
for a decisive action that we take back control of our laws completely, | 0:25:29 | 0:25:32 | |
that we take back control of our borders completely, | 0:25:32 | 0:25:35 | |
that we get control of our fisheries | 0:25:35 | 0:25:37 | |
and that we stop spending the money that we have week in, week out, | 0:25:37 | 0:25:41 | |
which will continue to be spent | 0:25:41 | 0:25:43 | |
until we leave this sclerotic project. | 0:25:43 | 0:25:46 | |
And that is why we need to move exceedingly rapidly. | 0:25:46 | 0:25:49 | |
Exceedingly rapidly is one thing - | 0:25:49 | 0:25:51 | |
do you think the Government is actually dithering? | 0:25:51 | 0:25:53 | |
Is your view that it could have done more sooner? | 0:25:53 | 0:25:56 | |
-Look, I've opened my mind to this a little bit. -What does that mean? | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
What I meant by it is that all of our parties, | 0:25:59 | 0:26:02 | |
including our own, have had these election processes going on. | 0:26:02 | 0:26:05 | |
I've seen that Theresa May has put in Liam Fox and David Davis into | 0:26:05 | 0:26:10 | |
significant positions, and people do have to listen to the arguments | 0:26:10 | 0:26:14 | |
about how we achieve the ultimate goal of ensuring that we get Brexit. | 0:26:14 | 0:26:18 | |
There's no hard Brexit. There's no soft Brexit. | 0:26:18 | 0:26:21 | |
It's just simple - it's Brexit, | 0:26:21 | 0:26:22 | |
and we're here to make sure it happens. | 0:26:22 | 0:26:24 | |
That's what the Prime Minister says. | 0:26:24 | 0:26:26 | |
There's no difference between soft and hard in your view? | 0:26:26 | 0:26:28 | |
No, there isn't, because, quite clearly, | 0:26:28 | 0:26:30 | |
the arguments were that those four points that I talked about - | 0:26:30 | 0:26:33 | |
control of our money, control of our borders, | 0:26:33 | 0:26:35 | |
control of our fisheries | 0:26:35 | 0:26:37 | |
and ensuring that we stop spending our money - and make sure, | 0:26:37 | 0:26:39 | |
as we talked about, Richard, | 0:26:39 | 0:26:41 | |
that that money comes back into the coffers of the UK, the billions | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
that are currently being spent on projects across Europe to | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
ensure that we do have the funds, because when we do talk about | 0:26:47 | 0:26:49 | |
the economics of the Labour Party, it's in fantasy world. | 0:26:49 | 0:26:52 | |
When you have nearly 4,000,000 people coming to this country | 0:26:52 | 0:26:55 | |
in 10 to 11 years, when you have, as we've looked here in Boston, | 0:26:55 | 0:26:59 | |
the costs are in their hundreds of billions, not the 50 or 100 million | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
that are proposed, and when we leave the European Union, | 0:27:03 | 0:27:06 | |
when we leave, that is the time that we'll be able to take that | 0:27:06 | 0:27:09 | |
money back, controlled, into our pocket and spent on the services | 0:27:09 | 0:27:13 | |
that this town and hundreds of towns and cities across this country need. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:16 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:27:16 | 0:27:19 | |
Well... | 0:27:19 | 0:27:20 | |
..we know what the various parties' policies are, | 0:27:22 | 0:27:25 | |
but the question Martin's asking | 0:27:25 | 0:27:27 | |
is about whether the Government's dithering and, Priti Patel, | 0:27:27 | 0:27:29 | |
I put to you what Ken Clarke said today - | 0:27:29 | 0:27:33 | |
"Nobody in this Government has the first idea | 0:27:33 | 0:27:35 | |
-"of what they're going to do next on the Brexit front." -Well... | 0:27:35 | 0:27:39 | |
That's Ken Clarke, much admired - I know he was a Remainer - | 0:27:39 | 0:27:42 | |
but much admired for his observations on politics. | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
What do you say to that? | 0:27:45 | 0:27:47 | |
Well, I have pure respect for Ken, but we have a plan, | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
and our plan is to make a success of Brexit. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
This is a unique opportunity for us, | 0:27:53 | 0:27:56 | |
it is a golden opportunity for us now, | 0:27:56 | 0:27:58 | |
when it comes to looking to the future, | 0:27:58 | 0:28:01 | |
being outward-looking, | 0:28:01 | 0:28:02 | |
leaning out in terms of our place in the world. | 0:28:02 | 0:28:05 | |
Steven's already highlighted some of the key things | 0:28:05 | 0:28:07 | |
in terms of money and what we will get back, | 0:28:07 | 0:28:10 | |
but I think it's important to say a couple of things about | 0:28:10 | 0:28:12 | |
negotiations and it's wrong to say nothing is happening. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:16 | |
You know, Theresa May has shown very, very clear leadership. | 0:28:16 | 0:28:19 | |
She's set up two new Government departments | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
focused on leaving the European Union. | 0:28:21 | 0:28:24 | |
This is not going to be a straightforward negotiation. | 0:28:24 | 0:28:27 | |
We are in that process, she is leading on that, | 0:28:27 | 0:28:29 | |
she's already started to speak to European Union leaders, | 0:28:29 | 0:28:32 | |
and that is the right thing to do, and of course we have | 0:28:32 | 0:28:35 | |
the machinery of Government working on the details of her plan. | 0:28:35 | 0:28:38 | |
When will she decide when to implement Article 50? | 0:28:38 | 0:28:42 | |
Or has she decided when to do it? | 0:28:42 | 0:28:44 | |
She will, in due course, she will announce the details of that, | 0:28:44 | 0:28:48 | |
but I think, quite rightly so... | 0:28:48 | 0:28:49 | |
You know, I've worked in business before and when I've been out there | 0:28:49 | 0:28:52 | |
negotiating, whether it's business deals and things of that nature, | 0:28:52 | 0:28:55 | |
I'm not going to go and put my cards on the table, | 0:28:55 | 0:28:57 | |
and so we're not going to give a running commentary on this. | 0:28:57 | 0:29:00 | |
Martin, are you happy with this answer? | 0:29:00 | 0:29:01 | |
Well, the problem I have with this | 0:29:01 | 0:29:03 | |
is that it was put to the electorate quite simply - remain or leave - | 0:29:03 | 0:29:08 | |
and it was as black and white as that. | 0:29:08 | 0:29:10 | |
There were no grey areas at that time. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:13 | |
It's only since then, since they got the answer | 0:29:13 | 0:29:16 | |
that they probably didn't want and didn't expect, | 0:29:16 | 0:29:19 | |
that the grey areas have come up and it seems now that everybody's | 0:29:19 | 0:29:22 | |
going to have lots of hot dinners negotiating round tables and, | 0:29:22 | 0:29:25 | |
you know, it's going to be endless, an endless process, | 0:29:25 | 0:29:28 | |
and I think we need to be incisive. | 0:29:28 | 0:29:30 | |
Well, it won't be. And I think it's important to say | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
that the Prime Minister, and rightly so, and the Government, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
are focused on getting the best deal and the right deal for Britain. | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
We are putting Britain's national interest first. | 0:29:38 | 0:29:41 | |
That is the right thing to do | 0:29:41 | 0:29:42 | |
following the result of the European Union. | 0:29:42 | 0:29:44 | |
She's unequivocal when she has said Brexit means Brexit. | 0:29:44 | 0:29:47 | |
There's no faffing about - we will deliver on that, | 0:29:47 | 0:29:50 | |
and we will deliver the right deal for our country. | 0:29:50 | 0:29:52 | |
And is there any deadline on when Article 50 might be invoked, | 0:29:52 | 0:29:55 | |
ie, we say we're leaving and have the two years to negotiate? | 0:29:55 | 0:29:58 | |
I've already said we're not going to give a running commentary. | 0:29:58 | 0:30:01 | |
I know, but I mean, next year? The year after? The year after that? | 0:30:01 | 0:30:04 | |
We are working on this. | 0:30:04 | 0:30:05 | |
-It's not... -That's not acceptable. -We will work to do this | 0:30:05 | 0:30:08 | |
and this isn't about how quickly, because you have to... | 0:30:08 | 0:30:11 | |
Well, it is for him, because he wants action! | 0:30:11 | 0:30:13 | |
He's not going to live long enough! | 0:30:13 | 0:30:15 | |
LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE | 0:30:15 | 0:30:17 | |
That's a bit harsh! | 0:30:17 | 0:30:18 | |
You look perfectly well to me. | 0:30:21 | 0:30:23 | |
Bonnie Greer. | 0:30:23 | 0:30:25 | |
This audience, and the rest of the people in this country, | 0:30:25 | 0:30:29 | |
are clever enough to know what was promised to them | 0:30:29 | 0:30:32 | |
and what was implied in the vote - that this was going to happen. | 0:30:32 | 0:30:37 | |
Now, the deal is, and I don't think | 0:30:37 | 0:30:39 | |
you have to be in politics to understand this or know this, | 0:30:39 | 0:30:41 | |
Matteo Renzi, who is Prime Minister of Italy, laid it out today. | 0:30:41 | 0:30:46 | |
The fact is that Brexit is the result of the mano a mano | 0:30:46 | 0:30:50 | |
that's been going on in the Conservative Party | 0:30:50 | 0:30:52 | |
and the old Referendum Party that Priti used to belong to | 0:30:52 | 0:30:55 | |
for 20 years. | 0:30:55 | 0:30:58 | |
David Cameron decided to put the referendum out here | 0:30:58 | 0:31:03 | |
in order to outflank his right wing. | 0:31:03 | 0:31:06 | |
And as that gentleman said, he got the wrong answer, | 0:31:06 | 0:31:09 | |
and that's why he resigned. | 0:31:09 | 0:31:11 | |
Now, bom-bom-bom-bom-bom, | 0:31:11 | 0:31:12 | |
you have a situation where you have people in court | 0:31:12 | 0:31:16 | |
who are...who are at the High Court to ask this question | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
which this government never dealt with. | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
Does the Prime Minister have the right to use the Royal Prerogative | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
to trigger Article 50? | 0:31:27 | 0:31:30 | |
Now, the fact that the, uh, the past prime minister didn't do that, | 0:31:30 | 0:31:37 | |
didn't find out if she was able to do that. | 0:31:37 | 0:31:40 | |
We don't even know. There's tonnes of things. | 0:31:40 | 0:31:43 | |
We've got 2,000 pages of legislation. | 0:31:43 | 0:31:45 | |
There's 40 years of legislation. | 0:31:45 | 0:31:48 | |
You'll need 365 civil servants alone to administer this, | 0:31:48 | 0:31:51 | |
but they didn't think of that. | 0:31:51 | 0:31:53 | |
-Because you guys weren't supposed to do this. -But Bonnie... | 0:31:53 | 0:31:56 | |
No, no, you've had your... | 0:31:56 | 0:31:58 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:31:58 | 0:32:00 | |
I'll come to you. Richard Burgon. | 0:32:00 | 0:32:02 | |
Well, firstly, to make it clear, | 0:32:05 | 0:32:07 | |
Britain needs to leave the European Union | 0:32:07 | 0:32:11 | |
because the British people decided to leave the European Union. | 0:32:11 | 0:32:14 | |
No ifs, no buts. But what we need is a clear vision | 0:32:14 | 0:32:18 | |
of what a Britain post-Brexit looks like. | 0:32:18 | 0:32:20 | |
-And I want to raise two issues. -Hang on. Do you need that | 0:32:20 | 0:32:23 | |
before you invoke Article 50? | 0:32:23 | 0:32:25 | |
Well, we want to hear from the Government, | 0:32:25 | 0:32:27 | |
and we haven't heard so far | 0:32:27 | 0:32:28 | |
what kind of post-Brexit Britain they're proposing. | 0:32:28 | 0:32:30 | |
-But... -Let me... | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
To be precise, you would like the Government to say, | 0:32:32 | 0:32:34 | |
"This is what we're aiming at, and we will now invoke Article 50"? | 0:32:34 | 0:32:38 | |
That's what the Government should do. The Government | 0:32:38 | 0:32:41 | |
should make clear the post-Brexit Britain they're negotiating. | 0:32:41 | 0:32:43 | |
Even though people won't talk to them before they've done it? | 0:32:43 | 0:32:46 | |
There are two important areas that I want to raise. | 0:32:46 | 0:32:49 | |
I don't know what employment law is going to look like | 0:32:49 | 0:32:53 | |
post-European Union exit. | 0:32:53 | 0:32:55 | |
I want the Government to say they're going to keep the workers' rights | 0:32:55 | 0:32:59 | |
that people in this country benefit from. | 0:32:59 | 0:33:01 | |
And I have to say, I don't trust the Conservatives on employment rights, | 0:33:01 | 0:33:04 | |
partly because Priti, and I have to mention this, did say, | 0:33:04 | 0:33:07 | |
once they enter the workplace, | 0:33:07 | 0:33:09 | |
the British are amongst the worst idlers in the world. | 0:33:09 | 0:33:12 | |
-I did not say that. -She said that in 2012. | 0:33:12 | 0:33:14 | |
-What's your second point? -My second point... | 0:33:14 | 0:33:16 | |
It's in a book that you co-authored, Britannia Unchained. | 0:33:16 | 0:33:19 | |
My second point is on human rights. | 0:33:19 | 0:33:21 | |
On this very show five years ago, | 0:33:21 | 0:33:24 | |
Priti revealed her enthusiasm for bringing back the death penalty | 0:33:24 | 0:33:28 | |
even if it mean innocent people dying. | 0:33:28 | 0:33:30 | |
So is it any wonder that people like myself don't trust the Conservatives | 0:33:30 | 0:33:34 | |
either with employment rights or with your human rights? | 0:33:34 | 0:33:37 | |
I think we're slightly off the point, aren't we? | 0:33:37 | 0:33:39 | |
ALL TALK AT ONCE | 0:33:39 | 0:33:42 | |
I think it's very important indeed. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:44 | |
Employment rights and human rights... | 0:33:44 | 0:33:46 | |
Rod Liddle. ALL TALK AT ONCE | 0:33:46 | 0:33:49 | |
-Rod Liddle, please. -Your party doesn't believe that Britain | 0:33:49 | 0:33:53 | |
-would be successful outside the EU. -I think we can be. | 0:33:53 | 0:33:55 | |
Rod Liddle, and then we'll come to members of the audience. | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
I think Bonnie was a little bit naughty, | 0:33:58 | 0:34:00 | |
-if I may say so, Bonnie... -That's all right. | 0:34:00 | 0:34:02 | |
..that having said yes, we had this vote, | 0:34:02 | 0:34:04 | |
and it was a vote to leave, and therefore we must leave. | 0:34:04 | 0:34:07 | |
And then to start bringing up this bizarre court action | 0:34:07 | 0:34:10 | |
whereby these remaining sulking Remainers... | 0:34:10 | 0:34:14 | |
SCATTERED APPLAUSE | 0:34:14 | 0:34:16 | |
-..totally unable... -Rod, Rod. | 0:34:16 | 0:34:18 | |
Totally unable to get over the fact that they... | 0:34:18 | 0:34:22 | |
-Rod, stop playing to the gallery. -It's not playing to the gallery. | 0:34:22 | 0:34:26 | |
It is playing to the gallery, because we are a nation | 0:34:26 | 0:34:31 | |
-under the rule of law, all right? -I'm aware we're a nation. | 0:34:31 | 0:34:34 | |
Hang on. If somebody wants to go to law to ask a question... | 0:34:34 | 0:34:38 | |
-We voted to leave... -Bonnie, this is my point. | 0:34:38 | 0:34:40 | |
..the European Union. It is absolutely clear. | 0:34:40 | 0:34:44 | |
So they can't go to law? | 0:34:44 | 0:34:46 | |
Hang on a minute, let me speak for a second. | 0:34:46 | 0:34:48 | |
It's increasingly clear to the Remainers, | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
who are increasingly of the view | 0:34:51 | 0:34:52 | |
that we should never have another vote | 0:34:52 | 0:34:54 | |
and that Article 50 should be triggered... | 0:34:54 | 0:34:57 | |
Now, as it happens, I don't agree with this gentleman. | 0:34:57 | 0:35:00 | |
I think that, er, the Government | 0:35:00 | 0:35:02 | |
isn't doing a bad job on Article 50 at the moment. | 0:35:02 | 0:35:05 | |
I want the Government to work | 0:35:05 | 0:35:07 | |
so that Britain gets the best possible deal out of leaving the EU. | 0:35:07 | 0:35:13 | |
-Rod! -And secondly... -APPLAUSE | 0:35:13 | 0:35:16 | |
And if that takes a few years, I don't mind that. | 0:35:16 | 0:35:19 | |
And imagine how much better our position would be | 0:35:19 | 0:35:22 | |
if, for example, France votes to leave the EU, | 0:35:22 | 0:35:25 | |
-which is entirely possible... -For heaven's sake. | 0:35:25 | 0:35:28 | |
-..within a year or two. -ALL TALK AT ONCE | 0:35:28 | 0:35:31 | |
You don't seriously believe that a vote of the people of this country | 0:35:31 | 0:35:36 | |
who decided to leave the European Union | 0:35:36 | 0:35:38 | |
-should be decided by a judge in chambers? -No. | 0:35:38 | 0:35:41 | |
-Over the people of this country? -No. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:42 | |
Hang on, hang on, hang on. | 0:35:42 | 0:35:44 | |
Unelected body of the House of Lords. | 0:35:44 | 0:35:47 | |
He's not asked to decide it. | 0:35:47 | 0:35:48 | |
-No, I don't. Thank you, David. -He's being asked, | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
as I understand it, to say whether Parliament... | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
Ken Clarke, to go back to Ken Clarke, | 0:35:53 | 0:35:55 | |
I think his words were, | 0:35:55 | 0:35:57 | |
-"I'm not going to be told how to vote by an opinion poll." -Hang on... | 0:35:57 | 0:36:01 | |
-Meaning the referendum. -Ken Clarke is seeking to get | 0:36:01 | 0:36:04 | |
the Legion of Honour of France by keeping us in the European Union. | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
-Let me go back... -He's been such a Remainer for so long. | 0:36:08 | 0:36:11 | |
I am not somebody who thinks there should be a second referendum. | 0:36:11 | 0:36:14 | |
That's wrong, that's wrong. | 0:36:14 | 0:36:16 | |
But we are a nation of laws. It is OK to go to law | 0:36:16 | 0:36:20 | |
to ask a question - do we make a decision like this by plebiscite | 0:36:20 | 0:36:25 | |
or do we go back to our representative democracy? | 0:36:25 | 0:36:27 | |
It is a question, and to imply or even to state | 0:36:27 | 0:36:31 | |
that it's wrong for someone to want to go to court | 0:36:31 | 0:36:33 | |
to ask the question of our nationality... | 0:36:33 | 0:36:35 | |
So you don't want a second referendum, | 0:36:35 | 0:36:37 | |
you just want to say, "Let's not do it." | 0:36:37 | 0:36:39 | |
-No... -Let's get back, let's leave the law courts for the moment | 0:36:39 | 0:36:42 | |
and go for the woman up there, assuming you're not | 0:36:42 | 0:36:45 | |
part of the legal profession. LAUGHTER | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
I just wanted to come back to something that Priti said. | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
Er, I appreciate negotiation is really important | 0:36:51 | 0:36:54 | |
and getting your ducks in a row - I negotiate day in, day out - | 0:36:54 | 0:36:58 | |
but what I really want to know is when the Government are going to | 0:36:58 | 0:37:01 | |
stop negotiating with people's lives and futures | 0:37:01 | 0:37:03 | |
and guarantee the right to remain | 0:37:03 | 0:37:04 | |
for those that have been here a long time and have lives and families. | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
The guarantee of the right to remain. | 0:37:07 | 0:37:09 | |
-Brief answer. -We've been clear, the Prime Minister has been clear, | 0:37:09 | 0:37:13 | |
that of course, nothing changes until we leave the European Union, | 0:37:13 | 0:37:17 | |
and she's working to give that guarantee. | 0:37:17 | 0:37:19 | |
And she has said that categorically. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:21 | |
There are some things you don't negotiate on. | 0:37:21 | 0:37:23 | |
The man at the very back there. You, sir, in the middle. | 0:37:23 | 0:37:27 | |
I'd say "making a success of Brexit" | 0:37:27 | 0:37:29 | |
isn't really a policy position, is it? | 0:37:29 | 0:37:31 | |
I agree with the member for Ukip | 0:37:31 | 0:37:33 | |
that the money we send to Europe | 0:37:33 | 0:37:35 | |
would be better spent on the likes of the NHS and that, | 0:37:35 | 0:37:38 | |
but it still doesn't really solve the problems we have. | 0:37:38 | 0:37:42 | |
Why doesn't anyone from any party | 0:37:42 | 0:37:44 | |
really look at the likes of Bernie Sanders, | 0:37:44 | 0:37:46 | |
who suggested taxing a fraction of 1% in speculative trading? | 0:37:46 | 0:37:50 | |
It'd raise hundreds of billions a year. | 0:37:50 | 0:37:53 | |
OK. Um, I think we might... | 0:37:53 | 0:37:55 | |
I think we've done a fair half-hour or more about Brexit | 0:37:55 | 0:37:59 | |
and about immigration. | 0:37:59 | 0:38:01 | |
I'm going to go on to another question. | 0:38:01 | 0:38:02 | |
-AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS -No, I'm going to another question. | 0:38:02 | 0:38:06 | |
Hold on. You've had a big say already, I'm just moving on. | 0:38:06 | 0:38:10 | |
I know you've got a lot to say, | 0:38:10 | 0:38:11 | |
but a lot of people have a lot to say. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:13 | |
Mainly round this panel. All right. | 0:38:13 | 0:38:15 | |
AUDIENCE MEMBER KEEPS SHOUTING I'm going to take a question... | 0:38:15 | 0:38:18 | |
I'm going to take a question from Sue Selby, please. | 0:38:18 | 0:38:23 | |
Will football ever be free of corruption and greed | 0:38:23 | 0:38:27 | |
and return to being a true sport? | 0:38:27 | 0:38:30 | |
When will football be free of corruption and greed | 0:38:30 | 0:38:33 | |
and return to being a true sport? | 0:38:33 | 0:38:35 | |
Bonnie Greer, you know all about that. | 0:38:35 | 0:38:37 | |
I know all about it. | 0:38:37 | 0:38:38 | |
-No? -I... | 0:38:41 | 0:38:43 | |
It's, uh, as someone born in America, | 0:38:45 | 0:38:47 | |
it is quite amazing how much money is in football. | 0:38:47 | 0:38:52 | |
And I'm learning about it, | 0:38:52 | 0:38:54 | |
I'm learning about the sport. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:56 | |
I don't know when it's going to happen, | 0:38:56 | 0:38:58 | |
but I tell you one thing - the amount of money | 0:38:58 | 0:39:01 | |
that supporters pay and what they get in return, | 0:39:01 | 0:39:06 | |
I think, is scandalous. | 0:39:06 | 0:39:07 | |
-Absolutely. -I don't know how... | 0:39:07 | 0:39:11 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:39:11 | 0:39:13 | |
I don't know, you know... Somebody getting 350 grand a week, | 0:39:16 | 0:39:22 | |
I don't get that. And I don't quite understand why the supporters... | 0:39:22 | 0:39:27 | |
And, you know, I'm saying this with respect, | 0:39:27 | 0:39:29 | |
but I don't understand why the supporters | 0:39:29 | 0:39:32 | |
-haven't had some sort of revolt about this. -OK. | 0:39:32 | 0:39:34 | |
Because it's outrageous. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:36 | |
Let's be brief, I've got another question to come to. Priti Patel. | 0:39:36 | 0:39:39 | |
Well, I think what we've seen this week is... | 0:39:39 | 0:39:42 | |
You know, it's shameful, shameful beyond all belief, it really is. | 0:39:42 | 0:39:46 | |
So obviously whoever now comes in | 0:39:46 | 0:39:48 | |
as the new England manager in particular, | 0:39:48 | 0:39:50 | |
they're going to have to really raise their standards. | 0:39:50 | 0:39:53 | |
I think the FA in particular need to look to themselves, | 0:39:53 | 0:39:56 | |
look to their practices and actually say, you know, "Enough is enough". | 0:39:56 | 0:40:00 | |
I think it's just atrocious, what we've seen, | 0:40:00 | 0:40:03 | |
but clearly there's a long way to go, | 0:40:03 | 0:40:05 | |
because of the excessive pay that exists in football, | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
because of the excessive fees that are associated | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
with the transfer of footballers, with players, | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
and quite frankly, it's a sport that is dominated by money. | 0:40:15 | 0:40:19 | |
And nothing's going to change that overnight, it really isn't. | 0:40:19 | 0:40:21 | |
So this will now be about ethics and standards | 0:40:21 | 0:40:24 | |
and making sure that those that are at the top of the game in football | 0:40:24 | 0:40:28 | |
are transparent and are good, strong role models. | 0:40:28 | 0:40:31 | |
OK. Richard Burgon. | 0:40:31 | 0:40:33 | |
Back when football was cleaner than clean and whiter than white, | 0:40:33 | 0:40:37 | |
Leeds United was the best team in Britain. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:39 | |
-APPLAUSE -Ohhh! Clean! | 0:40:39 | 0:40:43 | |
In the '60s and '70s... | 0:40:43 | 0:40:46 | |
But on a serious... | 0:40:46 | 0:40:47 | |
On a serious... On a serious note... | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
On a serious note, | 0:40:51 | 0:40:52 | |
I agree with Priti on this issue. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:55 | |
I think that football has been ruined by big money. | 0:40:55 | 0:40:58 | |
I was born in 1980. I remember the time before the Premier League, | 0:40:58 | 0:41:03 | |
and I think football has been ruined by big business, market forces, | 0:41:03 | 0:41:07 | |
and fans being ripped off | 0:41:07 | 0:41:08 | |
and working-class loyalties being taken for granted | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
and exploited by big business. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:13 | |
And actually, it mirrors, doesn't it, | 0:41:13 | 0:41:15 | |
other aspects of our society. | 0:41:15 | 0:41:17 | |
Irresponsibility at the top, | 0:41:17 | 0:41:19 | |
where people are bending the rules for an extra buck, | 0:41:19 | 0:41:22 | |
when they're the people who don't need any more money whatsoever. | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
OK. You, sir. | 0:41:25 | 0:41:26 | |
APPLAUSE Yeah, go on, then. | 0:41:26 | 0:41:29 | |
It's reassuring to hear politicians talking that way | 0:41:29 | 0:41:32 | |
because they've never, ever taken money, have they? | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
Or taken things they shouldn't have taken, you know. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:38 | |
I think it's rather patronising, again. | 0:41:38 | 0:41:41 | |
And where would they rather the money went? Into the boardroom? | 0:41:41 | 0:41:44 | |
-Rod Liddle. -Should that sponsorship and that income... | 0:41:44 | 0:41:47 | |
I think football fans should be paying less for a season ticket | 0:41:47 | 0:41:50 | |
and less to get into a match and shouldn't be subsidising people | 0:41:50 | 0:41:54 | |
to accumulate half a million pounds in wages per week. | 0:41:54 | 0:41:57 | |
I think it's obscene. | 0:41:57 | 0:41:58 | |
In the last 15 years, the fans have | 0:41:58 | 0:42:00 | |
been edged out of the game in the Premier League. | 0:42:00 | 0:42:02 | |
I mean, it's now impossible, if you're a working-class bloke, | 0:42:02 | 0:42:05 | |
to afford a season ticket at Arsenal, take your kids... | 0:42:05 | 0:42:07 | |
You can't do it. The whole thing has been ruined. | 0:42:07 | 0:42:10 | |
As Bonnie says, absolutely right, it's ruined by greed, | 0:42:10 | 0:42:13 | |
and Priti said the same thing. | 0:42:13 | 0:42:14 | |
Did you know that the taxpayer gives the Football Association | 0:42:14 | 0:42:19 | |
£30 million a year? | 0:42:19 | 0:42:21 | |
It's just... I found that out recently, | 0:42:21 | 0:42:23 | |
and this is bizarre! | 0:42:23 | 0:42:24 | |
It's like the taxpayer giving £30 million to Philip Green. | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
I mean, it's just absurd. | 0:42:28 | 0:42:30 | |
And it is... It is an appalling sight. | 0:42:30 | 0:42:33 | |
The England team... | 0:42:33 | 0:42:35 | |
Not that anyone gives a monkey's who manages the England team any more, | 0:42:35 | 0:42:38 | |
I'd probably go for Anjem Chaudary, frankly. | 0:42:38 | 0:42:40 | |
Er, I just... | 0:42:40 | 0:42:42 | |
You know, it is a grotesque example. | 0:42:42 | 0:42:45 | |
Will it ever be free, was the question, of corruption? | 0:42:45 | 0:42:47 | |
At the top level, it won't be free, and more of this will happen. | 0:42:47 | 0:42:52 | |
But if you want to see good football, | 0:42:52 | 0:42:54 | |
go down a few divisions. | 0:42:54 | 0:42:55 | |
The prices are better, and there's more fun, | 0:42:55 | 0:42:58 | |
and you can mix with other fans. | 0:42:58 | 0:42:59 | |
Steven Woolfe. APPLAUSE | 0:42:59 | 0:43:02 | |
Steven Woolfe, and then we move on. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:05 | |
I love football. I played semi-professionally till I was 35. | 0:43:05 | 0:43:09 | |
I've got the bow legs, you know, | 0:43:09 | 0:43:11 | |
that you can probably put a football right through. | 0:43:11 | 0:43:13 | |
Last time I was on Question Time we were at Bolton, | 0:43:13 | 0:43:16 | |
where my brother, Nathan Woolfe, | 0:43:16 | 0:43:18 | |
had actually played for the club there | 0:43:18 | 0:43:19 | |
and he was brought in by Sam Allardyce. | 0:43:19 | 0:43:22 | |
But I never saw anything, nor did he, in terms of this at all. | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
What has happened in this scandal | 0:43:25 | 0:43:27 | |
has shown what is ultimately wrong about the modern game of football, | 0:43:27 | 0:43:31 | |
and it is a time that we should look at this extensively | 0:43:31 | 0:43:35 | |
and say, "Enough is enough". | 0:43:35 | 0:43:37 | |
The fans have been pushed out. | 0:43:37 | 0:43:39 | |
The teams have become multimillionaires | 0:43:39 | 0:43:41 | |
surrounded by themselves. | 0:43:41 | 0:43:42 | |
And I am actually sickened... | 0:43:42 | 0:43:44 | |
I was one of those, I used to go to the paddock at Manchester United, | 0:43:44 | 0:43:47 | |
up against the... | 0:43:47 | 0:43:49 | |
And if you think that Leeds were a clean club in the '70s... | 0:43:49 | 0:43:52 | |
The tackles that used to go in there were extensive... | 0:43:52 | 0:43:56 | |
Let's not reminisce too much. | 0:43:56 | 0:43:58 | |
What I am saying here... | 0:43:58 | 0:44:00 | |
What is even sickening about this is the fact that the man | 0:44:00 | 0:44:03 | |
has brought our country into disrepute is given a million pounds, | 0:44:03 | 0:44:07 | |
can go on holiday to think about his future. | 0:44:07 | 0:44:09 | |
How many of us would receive that money if we brought our country...? | 0:44:09 | 0:44:13 | |
What I would say to him is bring that million pounds back | 0:44:13 | 0:44:16 | |
and put it into some sort of scheme that helps bring children together. | 0:44:16 | 0:44:20 | |
That's where your million pounds should be. | 0:44:20 | 0:44:21 | |
Andrew... Andrew Sherwin, let's have your question, please. | 0:44:29 | 0:44:32 | |
The Prime Minister as the leader of the opposition both benefited | 0:44:32 | 0:44:37 | |
from a grammar school education, | 0:44:37 | 0:44:40 | |
particularly in terms of social mobility. | 0:44:40 | 0:44:43 | |
Why can't more low-income children with ability also benefit? | 0:44:43 | 0:44:48 | |
-Richard Burgon. -Well, I'm against the Conservatives' plan on this, | 0:44:49 | 0:44:54 | |
so it may be I disagree with Andrew | 0:44:54 | 0:44:56 | |
on this particular question. | 0:44:56 | 0:44:59 | |
I don't think we want to go back | 0:44:59 | 0:45:00 | |
to a 1950s-style world of education | 0:45:00 | 0:45:03 | |
and segregation where young children | 0:45:03 | 0:45:07 | |
are called failures or successes at the age of 11. | 0:45:07 | 0:45:11 | |
It does scar some people for life. | 0:45:11 | 0:45:13 | |
And the evidence shows that grammar schools actually don't increase | 0:45:13 | 0:45:17 | |
social mobility whatsoever. | 0:45:17 | 0:45:19 | |
I think we really need an education policy | 0:45:19 | 0:45:23 | |
so that everyone gets a good quality of education | 0:45:23 | 0:45:25 | |
and so we're not separating our young people off. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:27 | |
What kind of message would it send to your children if you're saying, | 0:45:27 | 0:45:30 | |
"You're not allowed to go to the school with your friends | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
"because you didn't pass this exam"? | 0:45:33 | 0:45:34 | |
I think it's deeply, deeply divisive | 0:45:34 | 0:45:36 | |
and I don't think it's that popular amongst Conservative MPs either | 0:45:36 | 0:45:39 | |
so I think it's a real failure of judgment | 0:45:39 | 0:45:41 | |
on the Prime Minister's part to bring this policy forward. | 0:45:41 | 0:45:44 | |
Andrew? Do you want to reply to that? | 0:45:44 | 0:45:46 | |
Right, I think arguing about grammar schools in terms of what | 0:45:46 | 0:45:49 | |
happened in the 1950s is a bit like arguing about what happened | 0:45:49 | 0:45:53 | |
in the football in this country in the 1950s and '60s. | 0:45:53 | 0:45:56 | |
I think that's rather irrelevant. | 0:45:56 | 0:45:59 | |
If you look at what grammar schools can offer now in terms of, erm... | 0:45:59 | 0:46:04 | |
access into higher education, social mobility, it is there. | 0:46:04 | 0:46:10 | |
The problem is that not enough children | 0:46:10 | 0:46:13 | |
from lower economic backgrounds get access into grammar schools. | 0:46:13 | 0:46:17 | |
That's why there isn't the social mobility that you're talking about. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:21 | |
-Priti Patel... -One of the reasons there's not social mobility | 0:46:21 | 0:46:24 | |
is because it bankrupts people to go to university | 0:46:24 | 0:46:26 | |
and so we need to bring back student grants, for example. | 0:46:26 | 0:46:29 | |
No, come back to grammar schools. Stick with that. Priti Patel. | 0:46:29 | 0:46:31 | |
I think we need to look at this in the wider context of schools and, | 0:46:31 | 0:46:36 | |
you know, much of what we've been | 0:46:36 | 0:46:37 | |
doing over the last six years, | 0:46:37 | 0:46:39 | |
getting more children into good | 0:46:39 | 0:46:41 | |
and outstanding schools. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:42 | |
That is the right thing to do. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:43 | |
That's been a big focus for our Government and as a result, | 0:46:43 | 0:46:46 | |
there are now 1.4 million more children | 0:46:46 | 0:46:48 | |
in good or outstanding schools. | 0:46:48 | 0:46:50 | |
But the reality is there are something like 1.25 million children | 0:46:50 | 0:46:54 | |
that don't have access to a good or outstanding school place | 0:46:54 | 0:46:58 | |
and rightly so, we are saying that the selective school system, | 0:46:58 | 0:47:02 | |
grammar schools or faith schools, | 0:47:02 | 0:47:05 | |
should actually be part of that provision. | 0:47:05 | 0:47:07 | |
They should have the opportunity now to work with other schools | 0:47:07 | 0:47:11 | |
that are underperforming to create more good and outstanding | 0:47:11 | 0:47:14 | |
school places and that's across the country and that means new, | 0:47:14 | 0:47:18 | |
diverse ways of working, new partnerships and, | 0:47:18 | 0:47:20 | |
to Richard's point, this isn't about going back to the 1950s. | 0:47:20 | 0:47:24 | |
We are not going back to a binary system that existed | 0:47:24 | 0:47:27 | |
previously of, you know, | 0:47:27 | 0:47:28 | |
failure or selection in that sort of very crude term, | 0:47:28 | 0:47:32 | |
this is about a new approach to education, | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
one that gives more parental choice, | 0:47:35 | 0:47:38 | |
one that also puts headteachers back into control | 0:47:38 | 0:47:40 | |
where they can actually work with neighbouring schools | 0:47:40 | 0:47:43 | |
and I say this as someone that has been a governor of a grammar school | 0:47:43 | 0:47:46 | |
in Essex where we have a very proud tradition of grammar schools | 0:47:46 | 0:47:51 | |
but also grammar schools that work within the community | 0:47:51 | 0:47:53 | |
and actually work with other local schools to create exactly that - | 0:47:53 | 0:47:58 | |
good and outstanding school places | 0:47:58 | 0:47:59 | |
-for children of disadvantaged backgrounds. -Very well. | 0:47:59 | 0:48:02 | |
And I think that is commendable and we should have more of that. | 0:48:02 | 0:48:04 | |
The man on the left there at the back. Yes. | 0:48:04 | 0:48:08 | |
I've, erm... I've been a governor of both a grammar school | 0:48:08 | 0:48:11 | |
and a secondary school here in Lincolnshire. | 0:48:11 | 0:48:13 | |
We have this system, we have the 11 Plus. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:14 | |
I think it's a very successful system. | 0:48:14 | 0:48:16 | |
My children have been through it. | 0:48:16 | 0:48:18 | |
And the one issue that worries me about... | 0:48:18 | 0:48:20 | |
When you say your children have been through it, | 0:48:20 | 0:48:22 | |
-do they come out all right the other side? -Yes. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:24 | |
I think so. I think so. I hope they do as well, but I think so. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:27 | |
The one issue which concerns me about this | 0:48:27 | 0:48:31 | |
is the whole issue of the 11 Plus and how it is positioned | 0:48:31 | 0:48:36 | |
as a pass and fail and we need to sort that out. | 0:48:36 | 0:48:39 | |
If we go back to the 1960s and '70s, | 0:48:39 | 0:48:41 | |
it was much more that you were academically qualified | 0:48:41 | 0:48:44 | |
or you were vocationally qualified | 0:48:44 | 0:48:46 | |
and I would like to see that as more of a fork in the road | 0:48:46 | 0:48:50 | |
as opposed to a pass and fail. | 0:48:50 | 0:48:51 | |
Rod Liddle. | 0:48:51 | 0:48:53 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:48:53 | 0:48:54 | |
I think I'd agree with that 100%. | 0:48:57 | 0:48:59 | |
I'm in favour of selection | 0:48:59 | 0:49:01 | |
in some form. | 0:49:01 | 0:49:02 | |
I'd rather have a comprehensive school | 0:49:04 | 0:49:06 | |
which was rigorously streamed, | 0:49:06 | 0:49:07 | |
if I'm absolutely honest, | 0:49:07 | 0:49:09 | |
but I don't trust the comprehensive schools at the moment the way | 0:49:09 | 0:49:11 | |
that they're being run to do that rigorous streaming | 0:49:11 | 0:49:14 | |
and to value the very top. | 0:49:14 | 0:49:16 | |
I do feel a bit misted, not by nostalgia about | 0:49:16 | 0:49:19 | |
the '50s and '60s because it was a time of social mobility and | 0:49:19 | 0:49:22 | |
grammar schools did play into that even though many working-class kids | 0:49:22 | 0:49:25 | |
got stuck in a secondary modern which wasn't a very good school, | 0:49:25 | 0:49:29 | |
some got through. More than they do now. | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
However, I also live in a county | 0:49:32 | 0:49:35 | |
where there are grammar schools and I am in absolute agreement | 0:49:35 | 0:49:39 | |
with Richard that it does not facilitate social mobility now. | 0:49:39 | 0:49:43 | |
It makes it much, much worse. | 0:49:43 | 0:49:46 | |
There is no question there are more private schools as a consequence. | 0:49:46 | 0:49:49 | |
It tends to be the most affluent kids who get into those | 0:49:49 | 0:49:52 | |
grammar schools because the parents have the money to get the tutors | 0:49:52 | 0:49:55 | |
to get them into private schools before that. | 0:49:55 | 0:49:57 | |
Absolutely no question about it, so I am in favour of selection, | 0:49:57 | 0:50:01 | |
but I don't agree with the 11 Plus at all, by the way. | 0:50:01 | 0:50:03 | |
-The woman up there and then I'll come to you. Yes. -Erm... | 0:50:03 | 0:50:06 | |
I went to a grammar school and my husband works at the grammar school, | 0:50:06 | 0:50:09 | |
the boys' grammar school here in Boston | 0:50:09 | 0:50:11 | |
and I'm very pro-grammar school. | 0:50:11 | 0:50:12 | |
But I want to know what are the Conservative Party going to do | 0:50:12 | 0:50:15 | |
for those who aren't as academically minded? | 0:50:15 | 0:50:17 | |
-Where's the provision for them? -All right. | 0:50:17 | 0:50:20 | |
Varied used to be provision. The technical schools as well, | 0:50:20 | 0:50:23 | |
it used to be a tripartite system and that was a better idea. | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
Because there is no provision now, | 0:50:27 | 0:50:28 | |
so if bringing in extra grammar schools, | 0:50:28 | 0:50:30 | |
if there's no provision now, there's certainly not going | 0:50:30 | 0:50:32 | |
to be any provision if we start dividing them up, is there? | 0:50:32 | 0:50:35 | |
Just briefly, Priti. | 0:50:35 | 0:50:36 | |
Well, this is the point about having more of a diverse education system. | 0:50:36 | 0:50:41 | |
This isn't just about having grammar schools, | 0:50:41 | 0:50:43 | |
this is about growing the places, the number of good and outstanding | 0:50:43 | 0:50:47 | |
school places, but importantly, giving children new opportunities. | 0:50:47 | 0:50:51 | |
So vocational education has grown and grown over the last six years. | 0:50:51 | 0:50:56 | |
You know, we have something like just under three million more people | 0:50:56 | 0:50:59 | |
in apprenticeships as well and that's what this is about. | 0:50:59 | 0:51:02 | |
You know, having an education system that is diverse and actually | 0:51:02 | 0:51:06 | |
that supports everyone of every ability | 0:51:06 | 0:51:08 | |
so that they can get on in life and I think that's incredibly important. | 0:51:08 | 0:51:12 | |
This is my point. We're not going back to the 1950s. | 0:51:12 | 0:51:14 | |
This is not the binary system that we had in the past. | 0:51:14 | 0:51:16 | |
So you're not going back to what David Cameron criticised | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
-when he was leading the opposition? -This is not... | 0:51:19 | 0:51:21 | |
When he said, "There's a kind of hopelessness | 0:51:21 | 0:51:22 | |
"about bringing back grammar schools." | 0:51:22 | 0:51:24 | |
-No, this is not about recreating the old system. -All right. | 0:51:24 | 0:51:28 | |
Bonnie Greer, then I'll come to you. | 0:51:28 | 0:51:29 | |
Can I just make an immigrant's observation if I may? | 0:51:29 | 0:51:33 | |
I'm... It always fascinates me, | 0:51:33 | 0:51:35 | |
it seems that the country | 0:51:35 | 0:51:38 | |
is obsessed with selection. | 0:51:38 | 0:51:41 | |
I don't understand it. | 0:51:41 | 0:51:43 | |
Why can't everybody - everybody - have access to top level education | 0:51:43 | 0:51:50 | |
in the most important language on the face of the Earth, English? | 0:51:50 | 0:51:55 | |
Why can't they have the best education possible in mathematics? | 0:51:55 | 0:51:59 | |
Why can't everybody have that? | 0:51:59 | 0:52:02 | |
Why can't it be...? | 0:52:02 | 0:52:03 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:52:03 | 0:52:06 | |
Why can't we make...? | 0:52:06 | 0:52:09 | |
Why can't we also make teaching, | 0:52:09 | 0:52:13 | |
which is one of the noblest things a human being can do, let's face it, | 0:52:13 | 0:52:18 | |
put it at such a rank | 0:52:18 | 0:52:20 | |
that not only we support the teachers who are there, | 0:52:20 | 0:52:23 | |
but we bring in the best people who want to teach? | 0:52:23 | 0:52:26 | |
I think we need to build schools that everybody can go to | 0:52:26 | 0:52:31 | |
and then if you want to... have to have selection, | 0:52:31 | 0:52:34 | |
at some point, please not 11 years old. | 0:52:34 | 0:52:36 | |
But at some point down the line, | 0:52:36 | 0:52:38 | |
people can make a decision about what they want to do, | 0:52:38 | 0:52:41 | |
but right now, we need people, | 0:52:41 | 0:52:43 | |
we need children to learn to speak English. | 0:52:43 | 0:52:47 | |
Everybody, not just immigrant children, but people born here. | 0:52:47 | 0:52:50 | |
You, sir, in the second row. | 0:52:50 | 0:52:52 | |
I am a former secondary maths school teacher. | 0:52:52 | 0:52:55 | |
Erm... From what I observed in education from teaching... | 0:52:55 | 0:52:59 | |
..each Government decides to change it | 0:53:01 | 0:53:03 | |
because they're on a sort of bandwagon. | 0:53:03 | 0:53:05 | |
It doesn't matter whether it's a grammar school | 0:53:05 | 0:53:08 | |
or the academy schools, | 0:53:08 | 0:53:09 | |
are you achieving standards? | 0:53:09 | 0:53:12 | |
Now, Rod mentioned something very important earlier - | 0:53:12 | 0:53:16 | |
streaming. | 0:53:16 | 0:53:17 | |
I've taught in such schools. | 0:53:17 | 0:53:19 | |
Well, it was called banding. | 0:53:20 | 0:53:21 | |
And I have seen pupils... | 0:53:21 | 0:53:24 | |
Basically, what happens is, | 0:53:24 | 0:53:26 | |
if you take the average-sized school you've got, say, six sets in a year. | 0:53:26 | 0:53:31 | |
You basically swap the top two sets around | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
so you've got mixed ability in pairs, if you're with me. | 0:53:34 | 0:53:37 | |
And the weaker pupils are improved, achieve very good grades, | 0:53:37 | 0:53:45 | |
by the peer pressure. | 0:53:45 | 0:53:47 | |
Mixed ability teaching literally across the year, | 0:53:47 | 0:53:50 | |
from what I could see, was a nightmare to try and teach. | 0:53:50 | 0:53:53 | |
It does work. | 0:53:53 | 0:53:55 | |
I don't believe in grammar schools. | 0:53:55 | 0:53:57 | |
I went to a public school. Did it make a lot of difference to me? | 0:53:57 | 0:54:00 | |
-I don't think it did. -OK. | 0:54:00 | 0:54:01 | |
I'd rather have gone to a good comprehensive school. | 0:54:01 | 0:54:05 | |
Stephen Woolfe. | 0:54:05 | 0:54:06 | |
For many families, particularly those on low incomes, | 0:54:06 | 0:54:11 | |
poverty is a grinding chore that you have to go through, | 0:54:11 | 0:54:14 | |
when you're working long hours | 0:54:14 | 0:54:16 | |
to provide for your family, | 0:54:16 | 0:54:17 | |
pay the bills. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:18 | |
One of the things | 0:54:18 | 0:54:19 | |
that keeps yourself hopeful | 0:54:19 | 0:54:21 | |
is when you look at your children and say to them | 0:54:21 | 0:54:24 | |
that you can actually give them a better life ahead of them. | 0:54:24 | 0:54:27 | |
The hope that you can give them education | 0:54:27 | 0:54:29 | |
so that they can come here and sit on this platform like | 0:54:29 | 0:54:33 | |
so many of us, or get a good job as a teacher like you, sir. | 0:54:33 | 0:54:36 | |
But for many in our country, as Rod has said, | 0:54:36 | 0:54:38 | |
who have come off the council estates as I've done, | 0:54:38 | 0:54:41 | |
the social mobility has declined dramatically. | 0:54:41 | 0:54:43 | |
Not just because I said it. | 0:54:43 | 0:54:44 | |
Organisations like the OECD or the ONS. | 0:54:44 | 0:54:48 | |
There was huge amounts of social mobility in the 1950s and '60s | 0:54:48 | 0:54:52 | |
and the grammar school system at that time wasn't perfect. | 0:54:52 | 0:54:56 | |
And I made it clear that in Ukip's policies, | 0:54:56 | 0:54:58 | |
we had to ensure that we'd got social mobility to move once more, | 0:54:58 | 0:55:01 | |
and that's why I've been a huge backer | 0:55:01 | 0:55:03 | |
of the grammar schools. It helped me. | 0:55:03 | 0:55:05 | |
I got out of my council estate. | 0:55:05 | 0:55:06 | |
I became a lawyer. I was able to go to university. | 0:55:06 | 0:55:08 | |
I sit here today very proud of my nation and very proud of the | 0:55:08 | 0:55:11 | |
people who have made this nation and the ability, | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
but what I have seen is social mobility declining here and | 0:55:13 | 0:55:17 | |
I'm heartened by Theresa May's view | 0:55:17 | 0:55:19 | |
that we don't go back to an education system | 0:55:19 | 0:55:22 | |
of the '50s with segregation, | 0:55:22 | 0:55:24 | |
that there is chances for people to come in at later stages, | 0:55:24 | 0:55:28 | |
but more importantly, the funding is going across the whole country | 0:55:28 | 0:55:31 | |
to many more schools to give them many more opportunities. | 0:55:31 | 0:55:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:55:35 | 0:55:37 | |
One final point? | 0:55:37 | 0:55:40 | |
There is nothing wrong with selection. | 0:55:40 | 0:55:42 | |
We've just had an amazing Olympics | 0:55:42 | 0:55:44 | |
where our sports people are selected and taken off to train... | 0:55:44 | 0:55:46 | |
-BONNIE: -It's not education. | 0:55:46 | 0:55:47 | |
-RICHARD: -We shouldn't have survival of the fittest in education. | 0:55:47 | 0:55:50 | |
-Hang on. -ROD: -It's not survival of the fittest. | 0:55:50 | 0:55:52 | |
When you talked about segregation in the 1950s, | 0:55:52 | 0:55:54 | |
the only segregation in education in this country at the moment | 0:55:54 | 0:55:57 | |
is you get into the best schools if you can afford | 0:55:57 | 0:55:59 | |
-to get into the best areas with the best... -Exactly. | 0:55:59 | 0:56:02 | |
And your Government but that policy in place. | 0:56:02 | 0:56:05 | |
And what I will say finally is we have to encourage other people | 0:56:05 | 0:56:09 | |
who don't believe, that don't want to go to university. | 0:56:09 | 0:56:12 | |
There are great talents in this country. | 0:56:12 | 0:56:14 | |
Why is it that we can look at Germany and they have great | 0:56:14 | 0:56:16 | |
technical colleges and believe in the engineers? | 0:56:16 | 0:56:18 | |
If we're going to have this policy of grammar schools, | 0:56:18 | 0:56:21 | |
we've got to have the technical colleges that go with it. | 0:56:21 | 0:56:23 | |
We've got to have the colleges that work for sport. | 0:56:23 | 0:56:25 | |
We've got to have those that work for engineers. | 0:56:25 | 0:56:28 | |
We've got to make sure our education is for all, not those, | 0:56:28 | 0:56:31 | |
and leave no-one behind. | 0:56:31 | 0:56:33 | |
You, sir, with the spectacles and the blue shirt. Yes. | 0:56:33 | 0:56:36 | |
I'd have to agree with Stephen and Rod on this. | 0:56:36 | 0:56:39 | |
It's almost like there's some kind of stigma against segregation. | 0:56:39 | 0:56:43 | |
Obviously, that sounds quite bad in a sense, but it's like, | 0:56:43 | 0:56:46 | |
if you're going to a grammar school like I do, for example, | 0:56:46 | 0:56:49 | |
I think some kids have different aspirations for life | 0:56:49 | 0:56:52 | |
and I think the state school system, at least from what I've seen, | 0:56:52 | 0:56:56 | |
it's more focused on getting the Ds to the Cs rather than the | 0:56:56 | 0:56:59 | |
-Bs to the As or the A*s and it's like people... -Yes. | 0:56:59 | 0:57:03 | |
I think it works more efficiently if you specialise it in that manner. | 0:57:03 | 0:57:07 | |
-Very briefly, Rod, you agree with him? -I agree entirely. | 0:57:07 | 0:57:10 | |
I think it's a huge problem. | 0:57:10 | 0:57:12 | |
I mean, I do have a problem with the idea of the 11 Plus. | 0:57:12 | 0:57:15 | |
I think it's an iniquitous and very stressful exam and cruel, frankly. | 0:57:15 | 0:57:20 | |
But the 11 Plus, the 12 Plus, the 13 Plus? | 0:57:20 | 0:57:23 | |
Yeah, yeah, I mean... Yes. I would... | 0:57:23 | 0:57:27 | |
Or you can do it through SATs tests, of course. Which you can do. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:31 | |
OK. | 0:57:31 | 0:57:32 | |
I'm sorry, our time's up. | 0:57:32 | 0:57:33 | |
All the hands go down again. | 0:57:34 | 0:57:37 | |
It's an hour we have, and we've used it. | 0:57:37 | 0:57:39 | |
Erm... | 0:57:39 | 0:57:41 | |
Next week, we're going to be | 0:57:41 | 0:57:42 | |
in Neath in South Wales. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:44 | |
The only person I know | 0:57:44 | 0:57:46 | |
who is coming so far | 0:57:46 | 0:57:47 | |
is Chuka Umunna. | 0:57:47 | 0:57:48 | |
But maybe that will be enough | 0:57:48 | 0:57:49 | |
to bring in our audience. | 0:57:49 | 0:57:50 | |
And the week after, | 0:57:50 | 0:57:52 | |
we're going to be at Hendon | 0:57:52 | 0:57:53 | |
in the... In the air museum | 0:57:53 | 0:57:55 | |
I think, in North London. | 0:57:55 | 0:57:56 | |
So come to Neath, come to Hendon. | 0:57:56 | 0:57:59 | |
Go to the website, | 0:57:59 | 0:58:00 | |
you can call the number... | 0:58:00 | 0:58:01 | |
If you're hearing this on 5 Live, | 0:58:04 | 0:58:07 | |
the debate, as you know, goes on | 0:58:07 | 0:58:08 | |
on Question Time Extra Time. | 0:58:08 | 0:58:11 | |
But here, it's my job to thank our panel very much indeed | 0:58:11 | 0:58:14 | |
and to thank all of you who came to Boston to take part. | 0:58:14 | 0:58:17 | |
Until next week, next Thursday, from Question Time, goodnight. | 0:58:17 | 0:58:21 |