Browse content similar to 06/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Conservative Secretary of State for Wales, Alun Cairns. | :00:00. | :00:20. | |
The Labour MP who ran briefly for the leadership of his party | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
Leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. | :00:26. | :00:31. | |
Ukip's leader in Wales, Neil Hamilton. | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
And the comedian who made his name on Mock The Week and now presents | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
a podcast taking a sideways look at politics, Andy Parsons. | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
You can get very muched in the debate on Facebook, Twitter, texting | :00:48. | :01:12. | |
83981 will get you there. Natalie Matthews, please? After the events | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
in Strasbourg and the resignation of Diane Davies, is there a future for | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
Ukip -- Diane James? There was an altercation leaving Steven Woolfe of | :01:29. | :01:38. | |
course in hospital? Chuka Umunna? I am glad Steven Woolfe is OK. | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
Whatever political differences we may have; we are all human beings | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
and I'm really glad he's OK, conscious and smiling. In terms of | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
Ukip and its future, what is its point going forward? Neil might have | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
something to say about that, but it's achieved the aim it set out to | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
achieve as a party. It wants to go beyond that and create the kind of | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
picture of Britain it wanted to create at the last general election. | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
I think that would be highly undesirable. Flat rate income taxes | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
that give the top 1% a huge tax break whilst everyone else suffers. | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
I don't like that. More private provision, perhaps private insurance | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
in the National Health Service, I don't particularly like that. And | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
whilst of course I think we all would acknowledge that migration | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
foes and population change pose challenges to any country, I dislike | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
a lot of the narrative that comes out of Ukip which tends often to | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
suggest that all of our problems as a country are down to immigrants | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
when nothing could be further from the truth. We know you are opposed | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
to their views, but do you think they're collapsing? Well, who knows | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
what their future holds. I think the bigger problem for them, | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
notwithstanding the leadership, is what is the point of Ukip and, you | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
know, if the point of Ukip is a picture of Britain that I've | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
painted, them offering at the general election, I'm afraid I don't | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
think that's something most of us would want. | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
APPLAUSE. Leanne Wood? | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
I think this could go one of two ways now. They could either | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
disappear because they have achieved their political goal, or they could | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
become the anti-immigration party along the lines of the French front | :03:26. | :03:33. | |
national, that kind of right-wing party that we see right throughout | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
Europe. But this to me shows that really at base, this is a party full | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
of thugs. Fighting in politics is just not on. It's not the way to | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
carry out your political disagreements. I would say, you | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
know, it follows on from a referendum campaign where Ukip put | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
forward some pretty strong arguments and I think encouraged some of the | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
worst aspects of politics to come out in people and I'm referring | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
there to statements that could be referred to as being racist. We have | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
seen a rise in hate crime since Brexit. Of course, it fits in well | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
with the in-fighting that's gone in the National Assembly and the hints | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
of misogyny we have seen there. The leader referred to me and my | :04:32. | :04:40. | |
colleague Kirsty Williams as political concubines, that's | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
prostitute. You are referring to Neil Hamilton saying this? I am, | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
yes. The speech in the National Assembly, he referred to sexist | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
language like that and it's just not on in politics. When you said the | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
party was full of thugs, somebody Houlted out "how dare you". I resent | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
being call add thug by a party that by its very name is a racist party. | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
Excuse me? Yes you are, please Cymru the party of Wales, Wales for the | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
Welsh, what about the rest of it? If I did it in England, English for the | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
English, I would be in jail. I resent being called a thug. People | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
who've thrown punches in Strasbourg today is that thuggish behaviour. I | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
resent you suggesting I come from a racist party. My party is not a | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
racist party. We are outward looking, inclusive, internationalist | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
and in fact we are the only party in Wales who's putting forward a | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
proposal for Brexit which is outward looking. Just the week before | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
last... Leanne, you've made your point. I've got to bring other | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
people in. The woman there in purple? | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
I have to disagree with Leanne. I find that Plaid Cymru are | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
anti-English language totally, I've seen it myself in my local village | :06:05. | :06:15. | |
where they're getting rid of the English in a mainstream school. We | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
seem to be going down a different road. I've never had any trouble | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
from Ukip. It's only fair we hear from Neil Hamilton. You've no doubt | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
heard today that the financier of Ukip says that unless you leave the | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
party He's going to leave Ukip and won't be supporting it because he | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
thinks you behave disgustingly spewing out bile he said today? It's | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
very dangerous when elected politicians, particularly their | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
leaders of other parties insult millions of those who vote for their | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
competitors. We elected seven members of the assembly here in | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
Wales only in May. We were the prime movers behind the Brexit vote in | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
which the majority of the British people voted to leave the European | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
Union. In Leanne's own constituency of the Rhondda, I think I'm right in | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
saying from memory 56% of her own constituents voted against what she | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
wanted which was to stay in the EU. To call members of Ukip in their | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
tens of thousands a party of thugs I think is absolutely disgraceful. | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
What was that fight over then? Because two people got into a fight | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
which they should certainly never have done so, in contravention of | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
Ukip's own rules and I anticipated this question of course this | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
evening. Our own rules say, all elected members are expected to act | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
at all times in a manner which reflects positively on the party in | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
personal and professional life, elected members are expected to be | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
aware that by virtue of their elected position, their actions are | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
subject to greater public scrutiny and their bad behaviour can bring | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
the party into disrepute. All that is fairly obvious isn't it? You | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
hardly need a ruling to tell people not to hit each other? I presume | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
disciplinary action will be taken once an inquiry is carried out and | :08:23. | :08:31. | |
due process is observed and if it proves that somebody was guilty of | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
throwing a punch and causings some actual bodily harm, then that's more | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
a matter for the police in a way than for a political party to decide | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
upon. That is undoubtedly an action which could result in one or both of | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
these being expelled from the party. We do not condone this behaviour and | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
it's certainly not typical of our party. I've been in Ukip 15 years | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
and never seen a fight of this kind before. What you just said is very | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
interesting because you are talking about Steven Woolfe, you said | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
earlier on the BBC, I think Steven picked a fight, right. I didn't say | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
that. Picked a fight and came off worse is what you said? Yes. You did | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
say that? APPLAUSE. | :09:21. | :09:28. | |
I was asked. . ... I'm not trying to score a point off you. The point is | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
you are clearly referring to Steven Woolfe front runner to be leader and | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
you are saying if that is true he can't stand as leader and you know | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
the supporters, Nigel Farage and Erin Banks want that side of Ukip as | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
a leader, so if that doesn't happen... I've read the rule, I've | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
read it out to the audience this evening and in normal circumstances | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
what would happen in a disciplinary case of that kind, there are those | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
who're involved in such a fight, they would be suspended from the | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
party pending an inquiry. Are you calling for a police investigation? | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
This occurred in France, I don't know what the rules are. Do you | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
think there should be one? If it's a case of actual bodily harm, it's a | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
matter for the police. He probably won't be able to remember what he | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
asked for tomorrow. That's a trivial response of course, back to the | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
serious matter. The question was, is there a future for Ukip and one | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
isolated event wholly to be not be tolerated is not representative of | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
Ukip as a party which is now a major player, particularly in Wales and... | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
The leader standing down, Diane James after 18 days as leader of | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
your party, what is that about? I can't explain that. I didn't vote | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
for her. I thought she was not suited to the role and I was very | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
surprised she put herself forward. But we are not the only party which | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
sometimes elects an inadequate leader, are we? | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
APPLAUSE. Andy Parsons? Well, obviously Nigel | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
Farage is back, isn't he? He's goat a lot of things to cope with at the | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
moment. He's obviously supposed to be advising Donald Trump. How Donald | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
is going to cope without him, I've no idea. And we all quite surprised | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
that he's not on this panel tonight. We were expecting him on Question | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
Time, he's been on often enough. But the reason he was keen to step back | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
in and say I am leader is he was worried Neil Hamilton might claim | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
that he was in fact the leader when Diane James stepped down. | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
APPLAUSE. The woman at the back there in pink? | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
No, there is no future for Ukip because children are our future and | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
I don't think they are going to be voting Ukip. Simple as. No future. | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
OK. APPLAUSE. | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
Alun Cairns? I think we should all be grateful that Steven Woolfe | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
appears to be OK and hopefully he'll be discharged from hospital. I'm not | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
necessarily best placed to answer how Ukip members or activists feel, | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
but there is a serious job of work to do and on June 23rd we voted in | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
the referendum to leave the European Union. There are serious challenges | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
and it's the Government's job to focus and get the best deal for the | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
whole of the United Kingdom and delivering on that instruction that | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
came from the public. Ukip will have represented a significant number of | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
voters in the assembly elections and general elections. Those people will | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
feel let down as a result of the sort of antics that we are seeing by | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
the leadership and by the politicians. And I think that it's | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
up to the Government to act in a responsible way to continue that | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
positive agenda, acting on the instruction and I hope that other | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
part itses will play their part too. The woman over there, on Ukip, then | :13:01. | :13:07. | |
you? I wanted to come back to the original question, is there any need | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
for Ukip and I think there will be unless the Government starts | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
building more social housing and there are better paid jobs for | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
people because people are dissatisfied in Wales. There are a | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
lot of places in Wales and England that have suffered due to the death | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
of manufacturing. We may come on to a bit more of that in a moment. You, | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
Sir, in the pink? I think Labour's inaction on immigration will always | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
ensure there is a Ukip. Jeremy Corbyn's door's wide-open. That | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
policy will backfire and fuel Ukip. APPLAUSE. | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
You at the back? The job is done. The minister summed it up there. | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
It's time to act, time for action now. We voted to leave the EU, that | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
meant working with people for Ukip. So I think the Government and Ukip | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
need to work together to take us out of the EU. At the end of the day | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
that,'s a Conservative obvious there. On the left? Steady on. Well | :14:09. | :14:18. | |
he was an MP as I understand it. He was. Can I just confirm, that was a | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
long time ago. My point is, we need to work together now. I'm a civil | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
servant and I'm not sure where we are going with this now and it's for | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
the Government to take action now and get us out of Europe. | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
The person at the back. Ukip has a two word manifesto. Stop | :14:41. | :14:49. | |
immigration. How hard is it to elect a new leader to put that forwards? | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
Do you approve of those two words? I do not approve of Ukip in any way, | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
shape or form. I think they are a shocking outfit. | :15:04. | :15:03. | |
APPLAUSE I would like to remind the British | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
audience that Ukip was the party that used Nazi propaganda in the EU | :15:10. | :15:20. | |
referendum. It was shocking. If this is the future of not just British | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
politics but British political discourse and debate, we have a very | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
bleak future. APPLAUSE | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
I am going to go on because we have other subjects to talk about, some | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
of which might raise Ukip policy as well. | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
We're in the RAF Museum, Hendon, North London next week | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
Come and speak your mind. I'll give details at the end. | :15:44. | :16:00. | |
Right now, a question from Lucy Lock. Are Amber Rudd's proposals for | :16:01. | :16:09. | |
companies to disclose family foreign workers they employ encouraging | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
xenophobia and racism in the UK? There has been a lot of criticism of | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
what Amber Rudd said at the party conference and what she has said | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
since then. Alun Cairns, is it right to ask companies to disclose how | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
many foreign workers they employ? Let me say that immigration has | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
brought huge benefits to our nation. They have benefited the economy, | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
public services, they have diversify them benefited our culture. | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
Immigration is a positive thing. I think where people get naturally | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
worried, and rightly so, is where immigration is uncontrolled. | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
Therefore, the pressures that come about on public services, the | :16:51. | :16:52. | |
competition for Labour in many areas where maybe those companies are not | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
fulfilling the obligations they have in order to offer opportunities to | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
working people here and across the rest of the United Kingdom. What | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
Amber Rudd has talked about is launching a consultation later this | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
year to see exactly what else can be done for non-EU migrants, to see | :17:10. | :17:18. | |
what else we can do. Flushing out firms who don't have more skilled | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
Labour forces? Forcing them to list how many foreign workers they | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
employ? That is what she said. Is that what you want to see? That will | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
be part of the consultation. You agree? If I can answer the point, I | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
will explain. I am asking the point. In the last parliament we closed 875 | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
bogus colleges who were offering courses to students that did not | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
effectively exist. People would come, register and then never follow | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
up the course. At that time, we were called to be extreme because we took | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
strong action against those colleges. Now, that is accepted as | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
generally good practice because of the positive impact that would have | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
had on curbing immigration. And immigration from outside the EU has | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
fallen by 13%. But we need to look at what else we need to do. | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
Potentially publishing the sort of things you have talked about, which | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
already happens in benighted States, employers talk about the proportion | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
of employees that they have from outside the US and from within the | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
US. That will be part of the consultation we will happily engage | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
in with employers and they will be able to respond. Reading between the | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
lines, you approve, you say it happens in the United States and you | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
would like to see it happen here. Absolutely, but I want businesses to | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
engage to share how they feel they can better meet the needs of | :18:47. | :18:48. | |
ordinary working people who feel they are not getting a fair deal, | :18:49. | :18:51. | |
not getting the benefits that employers are offering. They feel it | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
is a privileged few that are benefiting, those who are on the | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
yachts and those who are earning millions of pounds from pension | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
funds. We need to change the policies that work for ordinary | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
working people so they are getting a fair crack of the whip. Chuka | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
Umunna. The question was, are the proposals fanning the flames of | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
xenophobia and racism? I would say certainly the headlines definitely | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
do that. I think this was a shocking suggestion, not least because I | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
actually asked Amber Rudd and her department how many EU citizens, how | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
many EU nationals do they have working not only in the Home Office | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
but in its different agencies. They don't even collect the figures. She | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
is attacking different companies and firms for the number of foreign | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
workers they employ and not knowing the number. She does not even know | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
the number of people from abroad who are working in her own department | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
agencies. So what we need in my view, if we are going to talk about | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
immigration, is a proper, balanced debate. The problem is you have it | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
played out on two polls. You have those who say immigration is always | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
fantastic, does not pose any challenges to any community. I | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
disagree. On the other hand you have the Nigel Farage view of the world | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
which is that all of our problems are down to immigrants. Now, of | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
course, migration population flows can pose challenges in the Labour | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
market. That is why you properly enforce the minimum wage. Community | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
cohesion, we have to provide better support people settling here too, | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
for example, be able speak English. And we have to make sure local | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
authority areas get the support they need financially to deal with | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
population change. But let's not throw out the baby with the bath | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
water on these issues. There are 1.5 million Brits employed in EU citizen | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
owned businesses in our country, over 100,000 EU citizens hoping to | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
power our public services. And let's not forget all the Brits living | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
abroad in other countries, not just in the EU, who benefit from the | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
movement of people around the globe. So let's have a mature, sensible | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
debate about this. Let's not have these gimmicks and stupid | :21:04. | :21:05. | |
initiatives and headlines which stoked the flames of division when | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
after the EU referendum we have to bring people back together. | :21:10. | :21:10. | |
APPLAUSE Do you approve of survey in | :21:11. | :21:20. | |
employers to see how many foreign workers they have and if they have | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
too many, trying to do something about it, reporting them to the job | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
centre? I think the real issue... I am quoting from Ed Miliband who said | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
this... The root of the problem here is that in the end a lot of | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
employers say, and when I was Shadow Business Secretary they would tell | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
me this all the time, they have chronic shortages. The way of | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
dealing with that is not to attack foreign workers or people who help | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
to provide the skills to businesses, but to make sure we have a skills | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
system that actually provides people with the skills that employers need. | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
But when you were Shadow Business Minister in, if you were Business | :22:01. | :22:08. | |
Secretary, would you have gone... You are not likely to be at the | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
moment, are you? You don't know what is going to happen. You quit the | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
Shadow Cabinet. Are you on offer to Jeremy Corbyn again? I have not had | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
a call yet. There is a reshuffle on going as we speak. Is it sensible | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
for government to do what Ed Miliband seemed to be suggesting in | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
2012, to look at employers and say, they have over a quarter of | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
immigrants, and that is something wrong and we must do something about | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
it? Is that the kind of direct action you would like to see? I | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
don't think that is the way to solve the problem. We have a ridiculous | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
snobbery in this country which says if you do a technical, vocational | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
qualification it is not as important as a degree, when that is where the | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
big skills shortages. Let's have more apprenticeships and end the | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
snobbery that says University is the way to go. | :23:02. | :23:02. | |
APPLAUSE Andy Parsons, let's go back to Lucy | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
Lock's question which is, disclosing how many workers you employ who are | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
foreign encourages xenophobia and racism. Do you agree? I certainly | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
don't think it's a good idea. Amber Rudd said, don't call me racist. We | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
can't talk about immigration and we should be able to talk about | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
immigration. She should certainly be able to talk about immigration. She | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
is the Home Secretary, that is part of her brief. If she can't talk | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
about immigration, then things have gone badly wrong, haven't they? But | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
we have been having a debate about immigration for ten years. We have | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
not talked about much else in the last six months. She rubbished the | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
idea that Labour had set up this fund, the migration impact fund. She | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
said was a terrible idea and then, what did she do, she said, we are | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
doing our own fund, the controlling migration fund. It is not | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
controlling migration, it is the controlling migration impact fund. | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
It is the migration impact fund but in a slightly different form. This | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
idea that we are naming and shaming companies, it should not be shameful | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
if you have a company that you employ foreign workers because there | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
is a skills shortage in Britain. At the moment we have a skills shortage | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
when it comes to negotiators for Brexit. They reckon we have about 25 | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
and we need about 500. It seems a good chance that the Ministry of | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
Brexit will be employing quite a few people from abroad and might have to | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
name and shame themselves. APPLAUSE | :24:34. | :24:41. | |
At the top, Sir will stop is no one proud to be British any more, or | :24:42. | :24:59. | |
English? All Welsh? The thing is, if you say something against foreigners | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
or immigrants or whatever, you are immediately known as a racist and | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
all the rest of it. There used to be a thing called freedom of speech. | :25:10. | :25:19. | |
Neil Hamilton. What a Segway that was. I think this is a wholly | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
deplorable idea and utterly irrelevant to immigration control | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
and discredits the notion of the need for immigration control. We are | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
adding to the population of this country, the United Kingdom, a city | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
the size of Cardiff every year from immigration alone. The scale of the | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
inflow is the cause of the problem. When we joined the European Union, | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
the common market as it was, back in 1973, we were nine countries of | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
broadly similar economic prosperity. So we did not have these vast | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
movements across boundaries that we have today. The problem within the | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
European Union was caused largely from 2004 when countries which were | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
formerly behind the Iron Curtain became members of the European Union | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
and their income levels were a fraction of what powers were in this | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
country. So of course people want to come and better their condition of | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
life and move to countries where they can earn more money and live a | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
better life for their families, it wholly admirable notion. The problem | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
is that if the scale of the migration is too fast, then it | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
creates social problems in the countries to which these people are | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
coming. We are not against immigrants as such. They are not the | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
cause of the problem as individuals. The problem is the scale of the | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
flow, and immigration has to be controlled otherwise all sorts of | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
other problems are caused. And that is what actually creates racism and | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
xenophobia. And you do not see Amber Rudd's proposals as trying to | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
staunch... I don't think it will make the slightest contribution to | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
immigration control and I think it discredits the argument and | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
therefore is counter-productive. In the middle. I think the turning of | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
what Amber Rudd said is included dangerous given what happened after | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
Brexit with Polish families and other EU nationals families being | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
attacked. It is hard to enforce for the government anyway because it is | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
a comp located procedure but I thought it was totally inappropriate | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
given what has happened recently with Brexit. What was it that she | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
said? The idea that people were coming and taking British jobs? Is | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
that what you object to? That sort of thing. As Andy Parsons says, | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
there is a skills shortage which a lot of European National is to fill. | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
In Boston, many people work in the fields and British people will not | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
do those jobs. They are hard, manual jobs, which people in Britain do not | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
do any more. Leanne Wood. The last question was about whether Ukip had | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
a future, and judging from the rhetoric on immigration that we | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
heard from the Tory party last week, we could say that Mrs May could be | :28:04. | :28:11. | |
the next leader of Ukip. I think what we saw in the Tory party | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
conference, the vision that was given by Theresa May, is not | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
something that I want to have anything to do with at all. The | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
vision that I have for Wales is one where we can all live together, | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
regardless of where we came from originally. We should respect each | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
other's cultures and languages. But we should be able to live together | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
in harmony. And this idea about separating foreign workers out from | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
the indigenous population, having some kind of list, is a very | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
dangerous road to go down, I would suggest. And I am just glad that, as | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
politics shifts further to the right, becomes more ugly, more | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
divisive, more British nationalists in the way it expresses itself, that | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
we have an opportunity in Wales to do something completely different. | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
And we could create a politics here that is nothing like that | :29:08. | :29:14. | |
whatsoever. So you don't believe in any immigration controls? That is | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
not what I said at all. There is an argument for a sensible immigration | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
policy. We have a shortage of doctors in Wales. We are crying out, | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
where I live, there are GPs retiring and no plan to replace them. 30% of | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
doctors in Wales were trained overseas. Our immigration problem in | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
Wales is that people are leaving the country. The young people are going | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
to university and not coming back, the areas in the valleys that are | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
becoming depopulated. Schools are closing the cause of falling rolls. | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
If our areas were more successful economically, people would want to | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
come and live amongst us, and we should be welcoming to them. | :29:54. | :29:54. | |
APPLAUSE The woman at the back there. Keep | :29:55. | :30:03. | |
your hands up if if you want to speak. You, first? | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
You said students are not coming back to Wales. There's nothing to | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
come back for, that's the problem. Exactly. So how would you go about | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
encouraging people back to Wales? Last week, my partier produced plan | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
for a national infrastructure for Wales for example which involves | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
taking the opposite view to austerity and rather than closing | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
down services, investing in our infrastructure in our Public | :30:31. | :30:32. | |
Services, in our Broadband infrastructure. We've got a country | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
that isn't connected North-to-south, for example. We really do need to | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
invest in those things we missed out on when the times were good. The | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
problem is now, is that money is short because of the banking bail | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
out. You in the third row? I used to live | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
and work in Spain. When I spoke to Spanish people, they said they felt | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
the UK wasn't welcoming to them, to people in the EU, so I wondered how | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
the panel felt that people abroad see us as a country that they don't | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
want to live, work in and contribute in as Europe? I think that's | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
terrible. Hold on, Leanne. Alun Cairns briefly on the suggestion | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
that Leanne made that Theresa May could be leader of Ukip and perhaps | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
in that context you comment on what the young woman there said? Can I | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
say that the message that came out of that referendum was that | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
immigration needed to be controlled and the first stage of controlling | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
it is acknowledging it. Simply Iing network it, Leanne, doesn't mean it | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
goes away. Jeremy Corbyn last week completely failed to recognise the | :31:38. | :31:39. | |
message that came from the referendum. It's interesting that | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
Leanne seems to be very open to immigration in the UK but if it goes | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
into the Welsh communities, she's got something very serious to say. | :31:50. | :31:57. | |
You said something without anything to back it up. What are you talking | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
about? ! APPLAUSE. | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
Give me a quote. Quote me. Give me anything. Migration into Welsh | :32:08. | :32:16. | |
speaking communities, the integration in those communities, | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
I'm a passionate Welsh speaker supporting those communities, that | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
isn't necessarily as it is. Many of your members have taken direct | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
action in the past, many have broken the law to that effect and I would | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
hope that you would condemn them. Who are you talking about, what are | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
you talking about? What are you talking about? You absolutely know | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
that we can go to communities... It's not acceptable. The audience | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
will know there are communities in Wales where there are nationalist | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
activists that take direct action against people who come in. It | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
wasn't so long ago that some of the cottages were being burnt down... | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
Hang on, that is nothing to do with Plaid Cymru. That's slanderous now. | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
That's outrageous. Absolutely outrageous. | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
A brief comment from you? I live in Carmarthenshire. Plaid Cymru are | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
eradicating English stream primary education throughout the whole of | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
Carmarthenshire, what do you say about that? Do you say you are open | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
to immigration? Plaid Cymru a anti-English, especially in | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
Carmarthenshire. I don't accept that, right. | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
APPLAUSE. How my party be anti-English | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
language when the leader is an English language speaker? That would | :33:40. | :33:44. | |
be perverse. You don't speak Welsh? I'm a learner, I'm not a fluent | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
Welsh speaker. We have hundreds of thousands of Welsh speakers. You are | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
catching up? I'm a learner and I'm not fluent so if what you were | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
saying was correct, that would be like a form of self-harm. | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
Let's go on. We can have that one outside later. I shouldn't have said | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
that! I didn't mean to say that out loud. The discussion can go on | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
later! Brian Warlow, please? | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
The Prime Minister this week stated "we are the party of workers. " If | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
true, where does this leave the Labour Party? Over and over again, | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
the true workers party, the party for ordinary working people. Mrs May | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
said that in her conference speech. Andy Parsons, what do you make of | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
that? Well, she was stood up, wasn't she, in font of the slogan which | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
said "a country that works for everyone", then announced she would | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
bring back grammar schools. APPLAUSE. | :34:50. | :34:57. | |
She then said she was going to be the champion for the people that had | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
defied the establishment, forgetting she's been part of the establishment | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
for decades and is arguably now the pinnacle of the establishment. She | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
then went tonne say, Britain should be a country it doesn't matter where | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
you were born. She obviously hadn't heard the speech from her own Home | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
Secretary, her own Health Secretary, who's suggesting we train up more | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
junior doctors and then we can tell the foreign doctors who're helping | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
us out at the moment that they should go away, she hadn't heard | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
from Liam Fox who basically said people who were here from the EU, | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
that he wasn't going to say that they could stay because they were a | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
negotiating chip, they weren't people as such, but a negotiating | :35:40. | :35:41. | |
chip. If I may continue, I've got a little | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
bit more to do if that's all right. The point about, what about Labour, | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
yes, the thing about Labour was, we'd already heard from Philip | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
Hammond, what's now his economic policy? What was he going to do? He | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
wants to say he's going to get rid of the deficit but he's not going to | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
actually tell us now when he's going to get rid of it but we will. That | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
sounds similar to the policy that Ed Balls had before the last election, | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
the challenge for Labour was always, could you actually get the people | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
and the public to believe in what you had to say on the economy, well | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
it seems they have convinced the Conservatives that wasn't the worst | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
economic policy at all. You've lost me, I thought we were talking about | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
whether the Tory party was the party of the workers. Yes, well it was. | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
You were saying it's adopted Ed Balls' policy, does that make | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
them... If you were saying they were taking Labour's position... You were | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
saying that, I thought. I wasn't saying anything. That was part of | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
the question. Yes. You think that is happening? They have tried to do | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
that because they have adopted Labour's economic policy from before | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
the last election. Oh, right. Alun Cairns? Absolutely yes, we are the | :36:51. | :37:00. | |
party of workers. We can recognise that unemployment in Wales, and this | :37:01. | :37:02. | |
is something we can celebrate because I won't talk Wales, | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
unemployment is the lowest across the whole of the UK. It's at %, | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
whereas 4.9% across... ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
That's why we have invited a former Labour adviser Matthew Taylor to | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
conduct an employment review because we recognise working practices have | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
changed. There's much more flexible working, so many more self-employed | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
people. Those people aren't necessarily feeling the benefit of | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
the economic growth and, as a result of that, that's why we want this | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
review to be taking place in order to respond to the needs and demands | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
and offer the same sort of protections to those sorts of people | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
over workers' rights and issues that many people in larger organisations | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
get so absolutely right, we are the party of workers. Chuka Umunna? | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
Before I answer the question, you have already commissioned an | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
employment review which was done under Sajid Javid when he was the | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
Business Secretary and you haven't published it. So why are you talking | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
about commissioning someone else to do it when you haven't done the | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
first one? The Prime Minister said on the steps of Downing Street, | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
absolutely that there are many people out there who don't feel that | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
the economy is working for them or that the country is... You know, in | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
terms of your point, David... People struggle to pay the mortgage. The | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
question was... Don't get the same security as you and I. The question | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
was about workers' rights and I'm sorry. It wasn't. It was about | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
whether the Tories are the party of workers. Clearly they are not. They | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
were the party that introduced employment tribunal fees which | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
prevent workers from getting justice when treated unfairly at work. They | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
have also made it harder for people to claim for unfair dismissal. They | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
continually beat up on the organisations that represent working | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
people, our Trade Unions. Now she wants to pose somehow as the great | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
champion of workers and workers' rights. It's utterly ludicrous, | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
based on the last five to six years. So this whole thing Tories workers, | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
there is a treason audience were laughing. | :39:18. | :39:17. | |
- APPLAUSE. | :39:18. | :39:25. | |
OK. You, mam? I wonder how the Tories | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
can turn round and say they are the party of workers after what they | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
have done not only to the mining industry but the steel industry et | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
cetera. But also the thing that they are currently trying to do with the | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
self-employed who're trying to claim Working Tax Credit or Universal | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
Credit and it's going to be now. They are making it so, so difficult | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
for the self-employed who're just starting out on businesses. I've a | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
friend, she's been trying hard for two years to set up her own business | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
and the stress of it, trying to fill in all the Tax Credit forms set set | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
radio all the time which you have just made far more difficult -- | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
forms et cetera. APPLAUSE. | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
This is why Matthew Taylor, a former Labour adviser, has been | :40:16. | :40:17. | |
commissioned to look at these sorts of issues. Theresa May absolute will | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
you stands by this and this is the sort of issues people are | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
complaining about, that Chuka highlighted. If you know so much | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
about workers' rights, why did you introduce and vote for tribunal | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
fees. Do you think Matthew... He's very, very capable. Denying people | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
justice in employment tribunals and you are trying to tell us here that | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
you care about their rights and you voted for that. The man in the | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
centre? Thank you. I would just say that, did the Tories represent | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
working people? Emphatically no. In my view, any credible party that | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
calls the opposition party the nasty party, I think is below contempt. I | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
worked all my life. I was prouder working and had a good career. I'm a | :41:10. | :41:16. | |
member of the Labour Party. I don't consider myself nasty and I don't | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
consider the Labour Party nasty, so certainly the Tories are not | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
representing themselves and I think a lot of other people too. | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
Leanne Wood? I think they're pretending to reach out to working | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
class people, to take advantage of the difficulties that the Labour | :41:36. | :41:37. | |
Party, the in-fighting that's been going on on two Labour Party. I | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
think there's an opportunistic attempt to try to take advantage of | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
that. But what I would say to everybody, particularly everybody in | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
Wales, is just don't believe them. Remember what they did to us in the | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
1980s, remember the deliberate deindustrialisation of our | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
communities. We are still paying the price for that deliberate | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
de-industrialisation today. APPLAUSE. | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
. Before I cam into this job as a | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
politician, I worked as a Probation Officer in the Valleys and some of | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
the social problems that are deep set, second and third generation | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
now, that were started during the 1980s when those pits were | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
deliberately closed, they should never be forgiven for that. Never. | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
APPLAUSE. Neil Hamilton, what cod you make of | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
the Prime Minister's claim that Tories are the party of the workers? | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
Neither the Tories nor Labour are the people of the working. As for | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
Leanne championing the coal industry, she wants to close them | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
all down and rely on windmills to generate electricity. Alun said that | :42:56. | :43:03. | |
employment levels in Wales are higher than ever before. That's | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
true. When you look at the income levels of people who're in work, | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
they've never been lower in relative terms. 15 year, Wales was second | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
from bottom in the league tables of income in the United Kingdom, | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
English regions and the nations. Today Wales is the bottom of the | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
league and we have had a Labour Government in Wales for the last 20 | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
years as well and now a Tory Government in the United Kingdom for | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
the last six years. They both failed the people of Wales and the United | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
Kingdom in this respect. Of course, the biggest losers from mass | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
uncontrolled immigration have been those at the bottom of the income | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
scale, people with the fewest skills and so for many people, the minimum | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
wage has now become the maximum wage. We, in Ukip, are the only | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
party who's put forward a credible proposal for immigration control | :43:55. | :43:56. | |
which would help those most at the bottom of the income scale. That is, | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
I think, the real party of working people, Ukip. | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
There are a number of hands up. I would like to ask you to be brief, | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
as I go round. You, Sir, you have been waving away? | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
I must admit I'm absolutely appalled by Alun's comments that he's the | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
party for the working class. I work in Public Services, I'm proud to | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
work in Public Services and your party are killing the NHS. Shame on | :44:23. | :44:24. | |
you. The woman up there. I work as a | :44:25. | :44:38. | |
supply teacher through an agency. Supply teachers used to work through | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
the council. The Conservative government have created a system | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
where we only work through agencies now. We used to have small perks | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
like travel expenses, which have now been taken away because we are not | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
officially self-employed. And yet all the politicians claim all the | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
expenses. The man in the pink shirt. I can only speak from experience. I | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
was in a thriving cosmetic industry in the valleys and when we needed | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
support the only ones who were there were Plaid Cymru. Labour were | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
speaking on TV and the Tories were nowhere to be seen. When you need | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
support, that says it all, they weren't there. In front. How can the | :45:21. | :45:28. | |
Conservatives say they are the party for the working people when they | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
have accelerated the state pension age faster than they needed to, and | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
they have denied women born in the 1950s their state pension until 66. | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
APPLAUSE You, sir, with the daffodil. Be | :45:43. | :46:02. | |
brief. I certainly will. He said you are a proud Welshman, Alun Cairns, | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
but how many of your Cabinet are working class? The majority probably | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
will have come from that sort of background. They are all if Tony is. | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
I am not, I went to school up the road and my father was a welder in | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
the steelworks. A lot of the old eat only and is have left because they | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
changed the Prime Minister. Going on to what some people have said about | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
public services, we have seen a demise of all our public services | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
and not just through the Welsh. You will pass it on to somebody else, | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
but it started with Thatcher. Whether you like it or not, it is a | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
decline of what happened in Wales, and Leanne Wood is right on that. We | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
have heard a good deal about Welsh matters because we are in Neath, but | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
I want to go on to a completely different topic. A question from | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
Mark Parmar. I would like to ask, is it time for the West to accept it | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
can only end the war in Syria by joining forces with Russia and | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
accepting President Assad as a necessary evil? Joining with Russia | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
and accepting Assad. Neil Hamilton. It is very dangerous for western | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
countries to blunder into other countries whose internal politics | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
they don't understand, and which ultimately they can't control. We | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
know the catastrophe of the Iraq war, the intervention in | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
Afghanistan. Western intervention has only made things far, far worse, | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
not just for those countries themselves but also through the | :47:42. | :47:43. | |
exported terrorism which is the inevitable consequence. So the | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
answer to the question is yes, actually. President Assad is not a | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
very nice person, very obviously, but you cannot see these things in a | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
moral vacuum. We have to ask, what is the alternative? Is it going to | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
be better or worse? And I don't think any of the interventions, from | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
Libya across to Afghanistan, that the West, with their grandstanding | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
politicians who like to strut on the world stage and expose for public | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
view what they think is their moral superiority, have done an ounce of | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
good, actually, for the people of those countries themselves. When we | :48:22. | :48:28. | |
look at the horror of Al ACPO today, -- Aleppo, can we really say that | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
Western intervention in Syria has benefited the Syrian people? There | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
may not be a solution. Many problems in the world do not have an answer. | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
But the West can not make things worse by blundering in and doing | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
what, making things worse because they have no idea actually what is | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
going to follow. In Iraq we had no follow-through plan. In Afghanistan | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
we were unable to make any difference, so we ended up making | :48:57. | :48:58. | |
things worse. APPLAUSE | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
You, sir, up there. In that case, Mr Hamilton, do you believe we should | :49:03. | :49:10. | |
continue bombing women and children? The Russians? No. But you have just | :49:11. | :49:19. | |
said that you agree that we should perhaps get into cahoots with the | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
Russians. That was the question, joining forces with Russia and | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
accenting President Assad. That is what you have just agreed to. I | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
don't think we should be involved. Alun Cairns, you voted in favour of | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
bombing Assad. I voted in favour of taking action in Syria in terms of | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
supporting the people against Daesh and the horrors that they would | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
bring about. But for me, at the moment the immediate priority has to | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
be the humanitarian crisis. And the action that we need to take in terms | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
of supporting those in Aleppo. Only earlier this week the last hospital | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
was bombed, tragically, in Aleppo. We have seen terrible photographs of | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
children who have lost their parents and families, and children who have | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
been orphaned as a result. The starting point has got to be to | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
carry on talking in order to get to that US - Russian type ceasefire | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
again so we can get some humanitarian aid. We have a proud | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
record in supporting some of the most challenged countries in terms | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
of who are facing war and conflict, and this is a good reason why I | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
stand by our overseas aid budget to support those communities and those | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
people who absolutely need it now. I can't understand why the UN have not | :50:42. | :50:48. | |
joined together and put Armed Forces into Syria and cleared it all up. | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
Because all of this warming is causing lots of deaths by | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
individuals, innocent individuals and youngsters. I think there should | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
be a plan to win by arms, to clear it and put the state back to where | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
it was. You think that would be effective? More effective than the | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
constant bombing and killing of innocent people. The woman in the | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
front. I think it is tragic, the way we see on television the bombing of | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
the hospitals and everything. I mean, years ago, we went, we helped | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
Ethiopian and all those other places. Look at Northern Ireland. We | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
had to talk to finish the Northern Ireland conflict. There had to be | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
talks. And I think there are going to have two B, whoever talks and | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
whatever. I don't believe we should go into Syria because look at Iraq | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
and all the other places that we have been into, and look at them | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
now. But I think we should definitely be talking, no matter | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
what Assad is, and no matter what Putin is. They seem to have the | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
power together. Some people think they are in cahoots. Well, let's | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
stop this terrible tragedy that's going on. When you see the pictures | :52:02. | :52:10. | |
on television, I'm sure everybody's heart is breaking. It is awful. Mark | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
Parmar, do you agree with what she is saying? What would you like to | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
see happen? Obviously, I would like to see the war end, but unless we | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
accept the reality that if we don't talk to Russia and talk to Assad, | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
then our current policies have been playing out for five and a half | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
years. Are we prepared to have another five and a half years of not | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
talking, watching more hospitals blown up? Andy Parsons. Our policy | :52:39. | :52:46. | |
towards Syria has been not well thought through. David Cameron | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
wanted to get bombing in 2013 and did not succeed with that vote. Even | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
wanted to get the bombing in 2015 and succeeded with that. The only | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
difference between those two votes was that in those two years he | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
wanted to bomb completely different sides from 2013 to the one he wanted | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
to bomb in 2015. That does not seem a coherent foreign policy. We have | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
the global players supporting different sides and in terms of what | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
we need to do, yes, we have to talk. But what can we actually do at the | :53:20. | :53:27. | |
moment? One thing we can do is that there are a lot of Syrian refugee | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
kids who are currently in Calais with links to British families, and | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
we are keeping them behind that wall. One thing we should definitely | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
do is get them into this country and help them now. | :53:40. | :53:39. | |
APPLAUSE Can I just say, I think we have | :53:40. | :53:53. | |
missed the boat on discussions with Russia and Assad. We have had the | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
opportunity over the last four or five years. Unfortunately, if Mr | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
Trump wins the American presidential elections, he is not known for his | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
foreign relations and his ability to talk nicely to other nations. So I | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
think we have missed the boat on that and if he gets into power, it | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
is going to be quite a desperate situation for the world, really. | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
Would you have liked to have seen the West ally themselves with Russia | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
and accept that Assad would remain in power? I am not saying that. We | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
have had the opportunity to talk to people who could make a difference. | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
We have missed the boat. Mr Trump is certainly going to make a difference | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
but not in the manner that we would all like. The result is going to be | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
a complete disaster for the Globe, I'm afraid. Let's be clear, we | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
should not ally with Russia and access Assad as the dictator of his | :54:47. | :54:56. | |
country. -- access Assad. In this discussion, we seem to have | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
forgotten how what has happened in Syria came about. It came about | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
because a brutal, nasty dictator, in Assad, refused to accept the desire | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
for democracy amongst his people coming off the Arab Spring in 2011. | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
That is how this started, so the idea that we should align with | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
Russia and prop up this nasty dictator incenses me. Let us not | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
forget, if you look at what the Russians and Syrian forces have been | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
doing in Syria, they have killed more people, more civilians than | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
Daesh and the Al-Nusra Front put together. So they are the problem. | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
Let us be clear about that. Of course, the reason that UK forces | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
are taking action, with others, both in Iraq and Syria and in the space | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
in between, is to degrade Daesh and stop the terrorism we see. That has | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
been successful to some extent in Iraq and is beginning to render | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
results in Syria. But no one is under any illusion that somehow that | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
is then to solve the problem in Syria. Three years ago you voted | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
against bombing Assad's forces, didn't you? Yes, and then I voted | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
for action in Syria recently. The reason I voted against it in 2013 | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
was that we were not presented with any plan. We were not presented with | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
details on the legal basis as to why we were being asked to intervene. | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
That was not the case more recently. There are three things. You need | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
unfettered humanitarian access, which has not been provided so far. | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
But ultimately, you need a negotiated settlement. You need to | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
create the environment in which the UN can help with that deal. | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
Absolutely not, the idea of propping up the guy who started this in the | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
first place is at Horut. Leanne Wood. If you look at where most of | :56:46. | :56:54. | |
the refugees within the European Union have come from, it is Syria. | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
It is an extremely complicated situation. Nobody has the answers. I | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
certainly don't. I don't think that there is a military solution to | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
this. There has to be a political solution, and there does have two B, | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
if there is going to be an end to violence, at some point there are | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
going to have to be talks. But I think what Andy said is spot on. | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
There are limits to what we can do, but there are some things that we | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
can do. Those civilian children in Calais, we should be offering those | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
children a safe space and a home, because the risks that they are | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
facing in that Calais jungle, it does not bear thinking about. | :57:36. | :57:36. | |
APPLAUSE I would like to hear what you have | :57:37. | :57:44. | |
to say that we have to stop. We're in Hendon, North London | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
next week with former SNP leader Alex Salmond | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
and Labour's Shadow Defence spokesman Clive Lewis | :57:52. | :57:53. | |
among our panelists. The following week | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
we'll be in Hartlepool. Come and join us, Hendon | :57:57. | :57:58. | |
or Hartlepool, go to our website, If you are listening tonight | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
on Radio 5Live, the debate goes From Neath, until next week, | :58:02. | :58:16. | |
Good night. | :58:17. | :58:25. |