13/10/2016 Question Time

This week we are in the shadow of a Second World War Lancaster

Conservative Work and Pensions Secretary, Damian Green.

Labour's Shadow Foreign Secretary, Emily Thornberry.

The former Leader of the SNP and First Minister of

The Daily Mail's political editor at large, Isabel Oakeshott.

And the editor of the Independent, which stopped printing to go online

As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,

Your can make your comments on what you hear around this table and by

this audience. Our first question from Mr Hambro? Did the British

public give Theresa May a blank cheque to force through which ever

Brexit she likes? Alex Salmond? I don't think that would be would or

should be the case. There's going to be a majority in the House of

Commons to invehicle Article 50, the article to withdraw from the

European Union. I think there's going to be a vote. I suspect, a

very close vote forced on the House of Commonses as to what kind of

Brexit the Prime Minister now has in mind. She told us for some weeks

that Brexit means Brexit, but never told us what Brexit meant. You can

have a variety of withdrawals from the European Union. You could be

like Norway, in the single market, out with the customs union, but not

a member of the European Union. You can be like Turkey, which is

actually not a member of the European Union, not in the single

market, but within a customs union. Which of these has she been offered

by the Brexit vote or lick her finger and hold it up to the air?

She has to tell us and get the Brexiteers to agree with each other.

Then they can come to the House of Commons to say this is the type of

Brexit that we want to see. We will find out if it's a hard Brexit, a

soft Brexit or a dog's breakfast! Damian Green. Donald tusk say the

only alternative to hard Brexit is no Brexit. When people voted on June

23rd they were voting for some form of more control. So the plan the

Government has got is that we should certainly take control of our

borders. That we should have our laws made by our own Parliament

rather than have to go through the European Court of Justies.

Crucially, that we need the best deal for businesses both in goods

and services that trade in Europe. Now, that's a clear plan. What the

details will be will obviously have to be negotiated with the 27 other

European countries. No sensible person has ever gone into a

negotiation saying every last detail is going to be put on the table at

the start. So I think the idea to have all the details out there would

be disked a van tailingious to this country. If there are people who

regret the result and want to use procedures to obstruct it. I was on

the board of the In campaign. No-one campaigned harder than I did to keep

us in. I'm democrat. The British people voted to get out and I think

we should respect that referendum result.

APPLAUSE. Not saying that Parliament shouldn't respect the democratic

result, of course not. Don't you think that There should at least

be... Not reveal your entire hand before negotiation, come to

Parliament, the people's representatives, and be held

accountable? I think it's in the Government's interest and the whole

country to be held accountable rather than getting some kind of

blank cheque? Briefly? Well, briefly, this week in Parliament

alone we've had about seven-and-a-half hours debate on

this. A two hour statement from David Davis. A Labour opposition day

debate yesterday. Yesterday five-and-a-half hours. That will be

repeated week after week. Parliament will have a huge say in this

negotiation. The Government has just set up a new cross-party Select

Committee to investigate this, Chaired by a Labour MP with

representatives of all countries in the United Kingdom on it. Parliament

will obviously have a huge say in this. The woman there. Then Emily

Thornberry. Whatever kind of Brexit Theresa May is going to choose, what

we need really is an end to this uncertainty that is destabilising

the economy at the moment, fluctuating the pound and affecting

businesses, big and small. We have seen fr Unilever down to the small

businesses that I run, a small architecture firm, that my clients

are nervous. They're not wanting to put on the line all of their savings

when you don't know what will happen. Are you saying she should

have made up her mind what kind of solution she is going to go for?

Would that be enough. She has to negotiate with the rest of the EU,

hasn't she? There are a few opportunities we have to put forward

this plan and she's... With Labour's vote this week to spell it out

before she enters into the realm of discussing with the EU. Emily

Thornberry. APPLAUSE. Does Theresa May have a

blank cheque, absolutely not. Absolutely not. The fact of the

matter is, that of course we get our instructions from the British public

and the British public have said they want us to leave the European

Union. But one thing that wasn't clear from that referendum, and the

so-called debate around it, was what our continuing relationship with

Europe was going to be because we arary not going to go sailing off

into the North Sea and having nothing to do with our European

neighbours with whom we export 45% of good and services at the moment.

We need a continuing relationship. They have had many months since the

referendum. Theresa May did not stood on a platform. Didn't have a

manifesto in terms of what kind of leader she was going to be. We go

into Tory party conference. We get different versions. Theresa May

playing to the right-wingers. Liam Fox, lord knows what his version of

Brexit will be. We have the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his

department clearly totally with jitters about it. They are all

saying different things. The Japanese companies who invest a

great deal in our country and are major investors. The Japanese

government, they are so pee lie. They wrote a letter, made it public,

they asked a series of questions, quite right to, what are you going

to do? What is your continuing trade relationship with Europe going to

be? What will be the migration policy? What will you do with

regional funding? There are so many questions... 170 questions. 170

questions. I have them, too. One question a day. You expect them to

answer all these? Of course. If they don't answer our questions now,

right, I can tell you one thing, the 27 partners that we have in Europe,

they will be asking all these questions when they arrive in

Brussels on the 31st March. They will want to know what our position

is. When the Tories say - we have to keep our cards close to our chest,

excuse me, what cards? You can't even agree amongst ourselves what

game you are playing. It's not right and not democratic for them to think

they can go into a locked room, have a bust up amongst themselves and

decide what is best for me, my children and my grandchildren. Thank

you. APPLAUSE. Isabel Oakeshott.

This 170 questions put by Labour is an absolute absurdity. I had the

displeasure of hearing Emily Thornberry on the radio yesterday

unable to answer even one question about her party's immigration

policy. To get back to the issue about hard or soft Brexit. I would

like to get rid of this term "hard Brexit." It is designed to

intimidate. It's a continuation of Project Fear. Let's think about what

"soft Brexit is" it's sell-out Brexit. Hard Brexit is real Brexit.

It's what people voted for which is control over our borders. Oh, no.

APPLAUSE. All right. Amol Rajan, do you remember the question. The

question was, has the British public given Theresa May a blank cheque. I

will come back to this... I haven't enough time to get into that. Let's

not go there. I agree with Isabel Oakeshott that the idea of hard and

soft Brexit is complete and utter nonsense. It's a dangerous type of

language. What we are talking about is a single market. On the single

market the question is - is Britain going to remain part of the single

market We don't know. When Article 50 is triggered you enter a two year

negotiation. In that negotiation, over two years, I can't see why 27

countries each of which has a veto, can't see why any of them have any

incentive to let us remain part of the single market. They would think

- Britain has to pay a price for coming out. Theresa May said it in

her conference speech that Britain's relationship won't be anything like

what it was. I take it to mean we will be leaving the single market.

It's really about respecting the will of the people which is to say,

if people want control of migration you have to leave the single market.

That is the fact. That, as far as I can see, that is the trade off made

on June 23rd. Britain might become poorer but we get control of

immigration. How do you know that? Damian Green said it was about

wanting more control, simply, how do you know? I don't know. I interpret

from general polls. Poll that is have been recorded for years that

people want low migration. I have two questions that a lot of people

would want answered which I don't know the answer to, despite being

someone who follows politics closely. If there was a vote in

Parliament it wouldn't be binding it's not legislation, I can't see

why the Government wouldn't just ignore it? I don't know why that

matters. The other thing is, if you are starting a negotiation which

lasts for two years, how can you ask a Government to lay out all of its

negotiating position and the things on which it's flexible. You can't do

that... Sgls can you ask no questions at all of the Prime

Minister? I don't understand how it would work to say to the Government

come forward... When David Cameron went off to Europe before the

referendum and fixed the problems of Europe, he went entirely as a

representative of the Tory party going into a general election. The

people in Europe saw him coming and thought - he's not speaking on

behalf of the whole of Britain, he is speaking on behalf of Torrancies.

They were wrong. We thought they weren't going to win the election.

They did. In order for them to strengthen their hand what they

should be doing is am coulding to the British parliament. We should be

able to have a debate. We ought to have an exchange of ideas and come

to at least some form - We did that yesterday. I will come to that.

Don't come to that. Five-and-a-half hours we were sitting in parliament.

Did we get anything from the Tories at all in terms of what their plans

were? Absolutely not. I will stop you. Everybody else has to have a

say. Damian Green said there will be lots of discussion but he didn't say

whether there will be a vote. You can talk endlessly and find out

nothing. Is there going to be a vote. There the reason there has to

be a vote. At some stage to withdraw from the European Union there has to

be an Act passed. They should have a note now. If they can't get a

majority for the negotiating terms, how on earth would they get a

majority after they finished the negotiations. That is why they

should bring the terms to parliament now, have a vote and let's see...

The assumption that we are trading our membership of the single market

for ability to control our borders and gaining our sovereignty is a

strange one because I think it's a positive case for leaving the single

market we are leaving a world of regulation and entering a world of

markets which seem to be creating trade deals with far greater

success. All right. APPLAUSE.

The man at the back. Thank you. You say you had a clear plan on

negotiating Brexit. Theresa May said she wants maximum control of the

borders and maximum possible access to the single market. But you can't

have both. I need to know, how is that a plan It's not an unreasonable

position to want it. It's a perfectly sensible opening position

that we accept. I said that in my first answer. You said, Alex, there

will have to be a vote on an Act. Absolutely. That's what the Prime

Minister promised this week. There will be a repeal Act in the next...

Talk about a strategy it has nothing to do with it. It's of the European

Union... No. Let me finish. It's about repealing the existing

legislation. That is precisely what the legislation is. Parliament will

debate that and vote on it. Is that the same thing... Downing Street

said there would be a vote on a final deal. Is that what you are

talking about or something different No. No, that's another vote. It

pullsous out of the European Union Act. The woman there. Damian Green

opened by saying people clearly want more control, but how do they know

what people want? The question on the ballot paper is, do you want to

remain or leave the European Union? They seem to be... The one thing

they seem to be hijacking the voice of the Leave voters for their own

ends. When you voted. I won't ask you how you voted. Did you know what

you were voting for? Yes. Perhaps I will ask how you voted. I voted to

remain. Are you suggesting that the vast pa yort of people who voted to

leave, 17.4 million people didn't know what they were voting for or

why? No, I'm suggesting... Because most YES! Oh, right. That is

fascinating that you think so many people, ordinary voters, are so

stupid. APPLAUSE. What they think is voters

were lied to by the No campaign, that is what they think. You don't

think they were lied to by the Yes campaign. People voted for many

different reasons, I know many Leave voters who did not vote to kerb

immigration they voted for more sovereignty. So a hard Brexit does

not serve their vote. You will get sovereignty. You. I agree with Emily

Thornberry, I'd like to make the point, are we going to allow a woman

exercise an executive power because she's a Prime Minister who doesn't

have a democratic mandate of her own and who is refusing to call a

general election for all of us to test the credibility of her

Premiership? You, in the second row? We almost

need to get back to the point where we are talking about the card on the

table and anyone that negotiates don't put their cards on the table

publicly or even in Parliament, I would say, I would say everyone

needs to come up with a plan and an idea, put that forward and maybe

then a general election or some sort of vote, not a referendum, could be

then given. OK. Any Leave voters? What do you feel about the way that

it's being handled now, the man in the white and grey? It's been

handled in the correct way I think. Correct way? Yes. Do you know what

you voted for? Absolutely. What anoise me is when Mr Salmond and Mrs

Thornberry tell us things, it's almost like project fear again. Stop

belittling us, we know what we voted for. What did you vote for? To take

sovereignty of our laws, to get rid of the single markets regulation and

to take back control of immigration. Now, I know that hasn't been put in

black-and-white and we don't have a definitive plan, but there were

freaky aspects we voted for, so stop telling us we didn't know what we

voted for, because we did. APPLAUSE.

Some people, perhaps not yourself, believe that the National Health

Service was going to get an extra ?350 million a week. We have seen no

sign of it. Anybody else who voted Brexit? You, Sir? There were three

Holy Grails of what leave means, taking back control of immigration,

laws and money. None of that can be achieved in the single markets.

David Cameron, George Osborne, everyone has a consensus, leave

means leave, remain means means remain in. I don't know why the

"bemoaners" believe we should leave by the back door. It's ridiculous.

Do you agree? It's difficult for me to interpret what Leave voters

wanted. But you are in the Government, you have to interpret

it? That's what we are doing. Broadly speaking, that is the

message we get from the Leave vote and, broadly speaking, as I've said

a couple of times, that's what we are looking to. The question of

trying to achieve the maximum control of immigration and also the

maximum advantage for British companies trading in Europe, yes

that's exactly what we are trying to do and it will be a negotiation so

we can't lay out the details now, but it does seem not unreasonable,

as an opening position to say, we'll do what the British people have

wanted and also what is to the maximum economic advantage for the

future prosperity of this country. All right. Emily, you said, we have

to negotiate but then we need to consult the public again on whether

or not the deal is a reflection of what they thought they were voting

for. If you talk to that gentleman there who voted out, there is no

need to consult him again and no need to consult him there, it was

over 17 million who voted out. You are saying they don't believe they

knew what they were voting for. Let me ask it this way, how many people

voted to take their next door neighbour's job away because... That

is ludicrous. That is ludicrous. Because the truth is, is that the

Government ought to have first of all it's primary responsibility, the

safety of its people, and the secondary responsibility is to make

sure we have a decent economy so people keep their jobs. People

who've only just got their heads above water, if this economy goes

south, people who're just making ends meet will be the ones who'll

suffer most. It won't be Liam Fox's family who'll suffer, it will be

ordinary families suffer. So you issued the challenge, how many of

you voted to take your neighbour's jobs away? Hands up. No hands up. I

mean that is ludicrous. I'll tell you what, Emily, the job of the

opposition is not to talk total nonsense. Yeah.

APPLAUSE. You, Sir? Would Emily Thornberry

please provide the terms that Labour would agree to and would you provide

the answers to the 170 questions that you'd like to receive?

I think that if we were able... We haven't got time for the 170. Try

one? I would be quite happy to be the Foreign Secretary and for us to

be in Government and for us to have What you would like to do... We'd

like to have Whitehall at our disposal but we do not. We are the

opposition, it's our obligation at a time like this, at a time of grave

constitutional, economic and political crisis for us to be asking

questions and for the Government to be doing its utmost to answer them.

Uncertainty has to end. For the sake of all of us. It isn't just the sake

of us, the CBI, the Japanese, the chair of the Treasury Select

Committee. You have said that, yes. Well, you know. Can I put things a

different way from Emily. I spent two referendums, the Scottish one

and the European one deprecating project fear. During the referendum

campaign I was arguing for Corp remain but on this programme I

attacked George Osborne for the way he was presenting the Remain

argument because I didn't think people were going to be bullied out

of the vote, nor should they have been. But the fact is, if it is a

hard Brexit, if we go out with the single market with no provisions in

place for the trade, then we will lose jobs. The Prime Minister is the

first Lord of the Treasury, the Treasury forecast says that. Now

either she should sack the civil servants who're forecasting and get

other ones or perhaps she should sack the Chancellor or both,

whatever, she can't have her cake and eat it in that sense. However,

the Scottish Parliament had a forecast produced that out with the

single market, there would be 80,000 jobs lost in Scotland. Now, that's

people not in the Treasury. That can be changed if there are other

arrangements made. But unless we know what the arrangements are, then

we face the hard Brexit possibility and the job losses. That is the

outcome. The man in the checked shirt. You, please? We were offered

a bindery choice, to Leave or Remain, we weren't offered to stay

in the single market but remain like Norway. To do that would respect the

referendum because we weren't offered that choice. It would

maintain the best things about the European Union and deal with many

people's concerns, avoid the economic catastrophe about the hard

Brexit. Extraordinary that the Government has ruled that out of the

question. You, Sir, in the front? Moving on

from the nitty-gritty, either hard or soft Brexit, the result that was

quite close has showed that Britain is very divided in terms of opinion

on either side and also, I think that in the Daily Mail and the Daily

Express this week, the headlines and the kind of Daily Mail or Daily

Express comment damning Ramoaners as you put it, I mean I disagree with

that by the way, but the very fact that you have put that in vitriolic

language to 48% of Britain does not help reverse the divisions in

British society. Isabel, let me ask you a question. If you were Prime

Minister and you're faced with 48% saying Remain, what account of them

would you take if you were Theresa May? Well, that is obviously a very

legitimate question but I need to come back to... What is the

legitimate answer? In this country we have a Parliamentary democracy

that goes by a first-past-the-post system so in the referendum the

majority of the people voted out, that has to be respected. To come

back to you on your issue with the Daily Mail editorial. When we talked

about Ramoaners, it's not ordinary people voting to remain, it's the

politicians, Anna Soubry, Nicky Morgan, the politicians, by the way

the majority of whose own constituents voted out. Ed Miliband

the same, the majority of his voted out and yet they are telling us it's

doom, it's going to be Amageddon and we are not respecting the will of

the people and are trying to argue for another referendum dumb because

they didn't like the answer. What do you make of your colleagues who've

been named by the Daily Mail as the moaners? Democratic politicians are

have the right and duty to say what they think and newspapers shouldn't

complain about that. The point about it was 52-48 is a good one and the

answer to what is the job of the Government is, precisely to bring

the country together by producing the best deal possible and Emily was

right. Let me rescue emmy. He was right to talk about the... I don't

think she needs rescuing. The economic issue is very, very

important. We have got a tremendously strong economy. We have

been the fastest growing big economy for years, we've got more jobs than

we've had for ten years, more women in work than ever before and

preserving that by keeping Britain as a prosperous outward looking

global trading nation both with Europe and the rest of the world is

absolutely at the heart of what the Government is trying to do and that

will preserve our prosperity for the future. The second lady that spoke

was a small business owner. I've got to tell you two things that

everybody here needs to understand. We have got two and a bit years for

this. This is going on for a long time. You are shaking your head

because you want certainty. We are not going to have anything like

certainty for a long time. 27 other countries have a veto. Even if you

think you have certainty, in the final minute, someone can pull a

rabbit out of the hat so get used to it, basically. Sorry, we'd better

move on because we are half way through the programme on that one

topic. Do you want very briefly to speak? You have had your hand up a

long time? I take issue with people saying that people that voted out

were stupid because we are not. I've done informed research and based my

decision on that. Absolutely.

APPLAUSE. And what did you vote for when you

voted? I voted to leave. For what though? To leave the single market

because there is a bigger world out there that we can trade with. There

is so much more opportunities than in Europe and there is no growth in

Europe. And did you vote to take your neighbour's job away? Come on,

ridiculous question. I vote to take Emily's job away.

APPLAUSE. We're in Hartlepool next week

and Gloucester the following week. Come and speak your mind,

I'll give the details at the end. Next question from Daniel Chambers,

please? Have the latest Donald Trump revelations made him unfit to be

President? I don't think we needed the latest revelations to know that

he was unfit. He's a psychopath. He is narcissistic. He can't relate to

people. If you watch him wandering around that debate, it's an

amazingly weird psychological experience but actually I almost

began to feel pity for the man. He's an extreme loner, he doesn't have

any friends, he's lived a sad, lonely life and he's got a ludicrous

bunch. Of policies which means he probably won't get elected. There's

still a bit of time before he could get elected. Imagine Vladimir Putin

is planning an October surprise, he'd like him to get in, so I

wouldn't be surprised if he hijacks the election in some way. There is a

huge phenomenon which we neglect in the US. There is a lot of people who

say that they don't know are actually going to vote for Trump.

The two big questions are, if Trump is such a psychopath and lying,

racist, sexist bully, why isn't Hillary way ahead and I'm not saying

that because I think she's a terrible candidate, I think it

speaks to the fact that America is very divided. If Trump loses, you've

still got a massive problem, 60 million people who expressed a vote

for him and feel that they are being completely neglected. The way to

understand Trump, it's like King Leah, on the heath going completely

mad and says, we should do such things, of which I know not yet.

Like the Dylan Thomas he roar, he's raging.

-- hero, he's raging. Isabelle Oakeshott? I found his

comments on women absolutely repel lieutenant and I think they probably

do disqualify him for the presidency -- repellant. What worries me is

that, why has he got as far as he has? The reason is that people who

back Trump in America are not looking for a messiah, they are not

looking to vote for the Pope, they are looking for a battering ram,

looking for something that crashes the establishment and it's a kind

of, the way I see it, a kind of howl of protest against the sanitisation

of political debate. People like the fact that he is prepared to go into

debates that others wouldn't have. On immigration, he's throwing it all

out there, being dangerous and provocative. It's deeply worrying

but you have to look at what got him there in the first place.

Emily Thornberry. Well, as a British politician, it's... We have to be

very careful about telling American's how to vote - No, you

don't. What we could do perhaps is rely, quote Her Majesty when she

said before the Scottish referendum, "we would hope that they would think

very carefully about it." Let me answer it, instead of answering as a

British politician. Let me answer it as a woman. As a woman I thought his

comments were completely disgusting and totally offensive and of course

he shouldn't be American president. All right. The woman in the second

row. How do you think our relationship with the States will

change if he does become president? I think it's very difficult to know

exactly what he's going to do in terms of his policies. I think he

has thrived on getting as much attention as he can by saying

outrageous things. I think that the difficulty that we have in relation

to his attitude to women is that that is deeply ingrained. The idea

that somebody could be president of America and have the attitude he

does to half the population is completely inappropriate. Alex

Salmond, do you share the view you heard around this table about why he

got the Republican nomination, why he's not, sort of, already left the

scene? He's riding an anti--establishment wave. Thus far

he has been compared to King Lear and Her Majesty, the Queen. And

Dillon Thomas' father as well. The best description I have read about

Trump is an article in the FT which said that only drunks and sociopaths

tweet at 3.00am in the morning. Loner. Trump is a teetotaller.

That's, basically, what he is. I mean, all this stuff about the

Muslims and Mexicans, I mean that was for the campaign. That was to

get the Republican nomination. He's a sociopath, a demagogue. The he's

not fit to be president for all of these reasons. He thinks you are a

has been and totally irrelevant, which is what he said about you? I

say you should judge people by your enemies. I'm proud to call Donald

Trump one of my enemies. The woman there. Seeing as Trump is such a

ridiculous psychopath, why are we letting someone from Britain who has

appeared on a number of official stages and has affected a lot of

people, Nigel Farage, who has led - well, hasn't led, has been a

prominent figure in a campaign to leave the EU, why are we letting him

appear on a stage with Donald Trump and coach Donald Trump? Why is there

like no... We are nota dictatorship. Since Nigel Farage did that, Trump

has been sinking like a stone. Farage might be our secret weapon!

The guy with the jacket and glasses. You are starting to Chair the

programme. He says you are in favour of Trump? I'm fed of politicians

attacking Donald Trump calling him sexist. Hillary Clinton leaked

emails, you calling him unfit is, quite frankly, ridiculous. I like

him, he's nice. He will make America great again. He's the change

candidate. He wants to improve things for

African-Americans in the inner city areas. Hillary Clinton has done

nothing as Secretary of State she's an appalling woman. Quite frankly,

she is not fit. You at the back there. At least Hillary Clinton has

held office, she was quite an effective Secretary of State. What

has Trump done? He's got no political experience at all despite

all the other faults he's got. Damian Green, is he unfit to be

president? It's a seriously bad idea for Government ministers in another

country to try and advise democratic friendly countries... I'm asking

whether you think he is unfit. You are are not advising the American

electorate. You don't need fob pomp pos about it? I will comment on the

words. Partly because I think Isabel Oakeshott and Emily said as a woman

she found those words he sado fencive. Can I say as a man I found

them really offensive as well. APPLAUSE. -- pompous. We will go on

to another question. Gabrielle Baigel. When playing games with my

nieces and nef you nephews we sometimes need to make it the best

of three if they're losing. How many Scottish referendums are we going to

need? I will come to you in a moment, Damian Green? We have had a

referendum in Scotland. The Scottish people very sensibly decided they

were better off inside the United Kingdom. I think that's good for

everyone else in the UK and certainly good for Scotland. All the

leaders of the SNP at the time, including Alex, said this was a once

in a generation, once-in-a-lifetime vote. They now seem to be changing

their mind on that. I have great faith in the common sense of the

Scottish people. They rejected separation when oil was $100 a

barrel. They have twice as much reason to do it now oil is $50 a

barrel. Frankly, you have to ask yourself - why is the SNP doing this

now? This is a piece of Blueser to distract from the fact they are

doing their day job, running the Scottish Government, very badly.

School standards are falling in Scotland, there are fewer deprived

children go to university in Scotland than they do in England and

Wales. People are waiting longer for help from the police because of the

Scottish Government. They are trying to distract the Scottish people from

the recognition that actually as a Government they're very, very poor.

APPLAUSE. What Nicola Sturgeon, the First Minister said today was, she

is determined Scotland will have the ability to reconsider the question

of independence. If she comes out saying we want another referendum,

would the Westminster Government, the British Government agree to it?

We haven't got anywhere fear. That's a process point. I'm saying they

shouldn't. I don't think the Scottish people would. You I don't

think there should be another referendum. Damian Green was reading

from his Central Office brief about what he thinks of Scottish education

and health service. Nicola Sturgeon was re-elected First Minister of

Scotland m May this year with 47% of the vote. Now, that is a mandate

that the Conservative Party could only dream about. You have a leader

who has not been elected. Your previous leader got 37% of the vote.

In that manifesto that she was elected on in May of this year,

contained the words "that if there is a significant and material

changing in circumstances, like Scotland being dragged out of the

European Union against the wishes of the Scottish people, then the

Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum. "

On that manifesto she was re-elected First Minister with 47% of the vote.

Now, that is an unimpeachable man daylight to say what Nicola Sturgeon

said today. Will there be a referendum, in your view? I think

what will happen is as follows. I think Nicola will put forward to the

Prime Minister, Theresa May, representing interests of Scotland.

A plan where by Scotland can retain its European connections in trade. A

plan to defend European citizens in Scotland so they are not treated as

bargaining chips or cards to be played. Their rights are respected.

A plan to defend the social and employments rights of Scottish

workers. That is the plan will go forward to Theresa May. The ball

will be in her court to accommodate that within her Brexit negotiations.

If she says yes to that, I think that will be Nicola discharging her

mandate. If she says no I think there will be another referendum

within two years. Which she will lose again? I don't think Nicola

will be holding it... She wouldn't beholding it... Unless she thought

she was going to win it. I think that's absolutely right. I started

the referendum campaign in 2012 at 27% of the vote. We ended up at 45%.

Now, I don't think Nicola Sturgeon is going to have too many

compunctions starting on 48% of the vote, which is where the latest poll

shows it. You win referendums in terms of the arguments you put

forward and the movement of people. If you put forward a case which

appeals to people's hopes for the future. That addresses the

questions, then you can win a referendum. The woman in the front

there. The argument that Damian put forward, she has no mandate for it,

is absolutely and utterly ridiculous and ignores the results of the

Scottish elections. If you think about the EU referendum, 48% of the

people decided to stay, so in two or three years time if we don't get the

deals or conditions we want there should be another referendum as to

whether we should rejoin the EU There should be a referendum when a

parliament votes for a referendum when it decides to put it to the

people. If the Scottish Parliament, it would have to be the SNP and the

Green Party, combine to have the majority - Is Brexit then no means

no? They can put the matter to the people in the referendum. If a

parliament votes for it, the people have a right to decide. I think we

have the point. I'm amazing you are going on and boosting about this 47%

which is apparently great for you, but when it's 52% for out that's not

good enough. And, by the way... No the referendum... Alex, let her

speak. I'm also amazed that Alex wants another referendum. The

economic case for Scottish independence has been absolutely

shredded. Scotland is more of economic basket case than Greece at

the moment. How would you pay your Welfare Bill without us This lady

was complaining about Project Fear. Project Reality is what we have

here. That's what you need to listen to. OK. If Scotland wasn't a viable

extremely prosperous country with amazing natural human resources the

Treasury and the Conservative Party wouldn't be anxious to hold on to

us, I can tell you that. You asked how many referendums do we need, the

answer is as many as Alex Salmond and the SNP say they want. It seems

that losing that referendum was the best thing that happened to the SNP.

They may have preferred to have won and have an independent Scotland

they have a foothold in Westminster. They have such a deeply entrenched

in Scotland in Scotland that Labour have collapsed in Scotland another

referendum is inevitable. I was surprised that Nicola Sturgeon

announced there would be a referendum today. I thought the

polls shouldn't there hadn't been a great up tick in independence, 38%.

I thought it would take a bit more time. I think eventually you will

win your life-long dream of an independent Scotland and a broken

United Kingdom will be fulfilled. The forces pulling Scotland away,

social, political, demographic from the rest of the country, the rest of

England, are so strong and cannot be tolerated. Whether he gets the

referendum or not, it might be ten years, but eventually Scotland is

leaving, we better get used to it. You sir. Scotland have no plan for

the currency, and no guarantee of being able to reenter the EU. You

need a deficit down to 3% of GDP. You can ask the same question, you

will get the same answer. You in the front. The prospect of the country

being broken up with Scottish potential independence, does the

panel think that referendums should be put to the English, the Welsh and

the northernish Irish as to whether they want the United Kingdom to

disintergrate? Serious implications if Scotland leaves the Union? Emily

Thornberry? I want us to be United Kingdom. I think that we are a great

country when we are united. I don't want us to splinter off. I think we

are who we are because we stick together. And, I would do everything

I can to to keep our country together. All right. I will move on.

We only have 10 minutes left. Rebecca Reece, your question. Is the

current Parliamentary Labour Party an effective opposition to the

Government? Are they an effective opposition? No, it the short answer.

In the last week it's changed. I have respect for Emily, she's in

what she has done with these 170 questions. It's the first time under

Jeremy Corbyn it looked like Labour is doing what it is meant to do.

Labour has so many problems it's ridiculous. Your question may be

motivated by a poll this week. In England where most marginal seats

are, Labour is 25% behind. Over 65s, the most people likely to vote, 48%

behind. No-one to the left of Tony Blair has won an election in Britain

since 1976, right. If at the last election the problem was a left-wing

leader who wasn't trusted with the economy,, having a more left-wing

leader who is less trusted on the economy isn't necessarily going to

get Labour elected. I believe that despite being in parliament since

1983 and Emily has been in parliament 11 years this Labour

movement and momentum don't believe in parliament. John McDonnell was

asked if he achieved social change. He said three ways, on the streets,

trade unions and there is parliament. He said don't expect

change from parliament to come any time soon. If you think about it,

the thing about Labour, what is interesting, they refer to David

Miliband, lost under Ed Miliband and governed by Ralf Miliband. Who you

guys may know. Wrote a back in 1969 calledkm parliamentary Socialism. I

read it so you don't have to. If you want to achieve socialism you do it

true the streets. Part of the reason Jeremy Corbyn is relaxed that 182 of

his MPs say they have no confidence in him is because he doesn't care

about achieving power. That is the main driving reason why they are no

good in opposition right now. The question wasn't, can they become

a Government, the question was, are they an effective opposition?

Emily's provided opposition this week, she's been on Channel 4 and...

I'll come to Emily in a moment. Alex Salmond? Labour haven't been an

effective opposition and that's self-evident from the last year, but

I rather agree. I think the Europeanish eye is going to put

enormous pressure on the Government and we'll find out if Theresa May

leads an effective Government. I'm not so sure about the idea that

Jeremy Corbyn's so left-wing that people wouldn't respond to it. I

mean, I don't think Jeremy's politics have been the problem, it's

been the competence. It's been the lack of ability to lead in

Parliament and if that can be changed I'm not certain that Labour

couldn't provide a much, much better show than they are having. In terms

of balance on politics, the SNP won 56 out of the 59 Westminster seats

in Scotland, the Tory party won one and Labour won one. Now, when I

started out in politics, I didn't think I'd ever see a situation when

the Labour Party won just the wound seat in Scotland but you should

perhaps think about this Damian, that Ukip have one seat in the UK

and we are in a situation in Scotland where the party with one

seat, the Tory party, actually is running the country on major

decisions, so people should think about how they would feel if Ukip

were currently in Government with one seat and then you will

understand where Scotland is going. You in the front? We have all

unanimously agreed that the Labour Party is riddled with divisions,

does the panel think there is a possibility of a split? A split in

the Labour Party? Emily Thornberry? The Labour Party is a coalition on

the left, just like Please don't say... Coalition on the right. We

have huge divisions. Oh. The next time we hear a Labour politician...

Can I get a word in edgeways, please. Tell her to stop talking,

it's nonsense, you have got nothing in common with them. Let her answer.

We have tuitions and the Tories have divisions and unlike the Tories who

fight their battles in closed rooms, we fight in the press. You can see

we fight in the press. With we supposed to be impressed by that? .

It's not impressive and it has to stop because actually you know what

unites us is so much more than what divides us. This's untry. We are a

divided country. It's important we hold this Government to account.

It's outrageous the way in which they have not had regional economic

policies and way they have not been investing in some of the poorer

communities up and down this country and they have essentially turned

their back on them. We are a divided country in terms of those who're

doing badly out of this Government, they're doing much worse. We looked

today at the results in the Health Service and what is happening there

and the way in which on all the stats, the Health Service is in a

much worse place... What has this to do with you being an effective

opposition? APPLAUSE.

OK, so one of the things that one has to do as an opposition is point

these things out, despite the barracking from the Daily Mail or

anywhere else, and we have to be true to what it is we stand up for

and we have to make clear there is an alternative because there is one

and Labour can be that. What, as I say, we have some differences, of

course we do, but I'll tell you what, it's nothing compared to the

differences you are about to see when it comes to Brexit and the

party. No, there are arguments that we have, but what we have to do at

this stage is pull together and remember what it is that we have in

common and we can be and we must be an effective opposition to this

appalling... Enough, enough. The man in charge of Brexit, your Brexit

Shadow secretary, himself said you can't offer effective opposition

without a change of leader, so how can you offer that? Can I just say,

I mean Jeremy has the advantage of being a good and decent man. And he

is a good and decent man. APPLAUSE.

And what we need to do is, the Labour Party is a collective

endeavour, it's not one person, we are in fact the largest political

party in Western Europe. We are now nearly 600,000-strong. We are a very

large and Democratic Party and we need to make sure that the

Parliamentary Labour Party steps up, pulls together and actually puts

forward the arguments because there are a huge number of arguments and

there is an alternative and we need to get on with our job.

APPLAUSE. OK, let's hear from someone about

whether they think Labour is an effective opposition? You? Jeremy

Corbyn talks about loyalty and I'm sorry, but over the 30 years of his

career, he's shown complete disloyalty to Labour because he

voted against the whip 500 times was it, so where is this professionalism

and loyalty that we are meant to show to Corbyn? You? I want all the

parties to care more about what's going to be happening in Europe and

our relationship with Europe whatever the relationship, rather

than this in-fighting between parties because so many more

important issues are at stake. They need to spend time and energy

sorting that problem out than fighting and other referendums.

Rebecca, what do you think? You asked the question? As a member of

the Labour Party, I feel quite let down by the Parliamentary Labour

Party and I think large parts of the public should as well because the

resignations by the Shadow Cabinet after Brexit real hi allowed the

Conservative Party to hide their own internal divisions and they've got

their own huge divisions over Brexit but all that's being shown are

Labour's divisions. APPLAUSE.

Damian Green? I was in opposition when the Tory party was in a bad

place in the early years of this century. Nothing is like the despair

on the Labour benches now. Trust me, Labour's in a much worse place. I

want to pick up one point, part of the sort of Labour Hymnsheet that

the Tories are much more divided than we are. It's demonstrably not

true. People on either side of the referendum are now sitting on

Cabinet. I'm in Cabinet with Liam Fox and David Davis and we are

arguing a future about how we can get the best from the Brexit vote.

You can't agree. We will agree. The point is, we are sitting in Cabinet

together. Your Shadow Cabinet won't have it because they won't serve in

it. Hilary Benn, Yvette Cooper, Chuka Umunna. You have got people

that have been Kimmed out? We've got nobody... Nicky Morgan. Nobody who

was asked to serve who refused. They just kicked them out. How many

people did you sack? Ten? Emily, apart from you, most of the talented

Labour politicians in Britain are refusing to serve in Jeremy

Corbyn's... Boris Johnson was there ready and Michael Gove popped up and

said I'm not backing him any more, he's unfit. Boris is... I'm in the

Cabinet. APPLAUSE.

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Michael Gove isn't in the Cabinet.

We have a united Cabinet that represents all views. Most of the

talented Labour politicians won't even serve under Jeremy Corbyn and

unless and until you get talented people on board, I'm afraid you will

continue to be facing the opposition.

You with the spectacles on? Given the influence that momentum appears

to have within the Labour Party, has too much momentum been generated so

that it's now out of control? Isabelle Oakeshott? Emmy goes on

about Jeremy being a good, decent man. My question is, is he

honourable? Is it honourable to remain leader when you can't read

your own Parliamentary party. If you can't head your own party, you

cannot be an effective opposition. The honourable thing would have been

for him to quit a very long time ago.

APPLAUSE. Can you pick up on his point about

Momentum? Just to repeat the question. Given the influence that

Momentum appears to have, is it now that too much momentum has been

generated so that it's now out of control? Absolutely because Momentum

doesn't represent the views of the majority of Labour MPs and the

result is that those Labour MPs are totally out of sync with the party

members and cannot provide an effect I opposition and that is untenable

-- effective opposition. The Labour MPs should be more in tune with the

Labour membership. You are applauding, are you a Momentum

supporter, Sir? Can you explain? Yes. Jeremy's just received his

second landslide victory. Coming back to what Isabelle says, yes, 192

MPs resigned. He's just been voted in by 300,000 people to be leader of

the party. That is a mandate. And coming back to what the lady said a

minute ago about disloyalty and him voting against the whip, he voted

against PFI, he voted against student tuition fees, he voted

against the Iraq war. On every one of those if you go back through

history, the that joort, if not all, he's been on the right side of

history -- the majority. Sorry I interrupted you earlier.

It's just not true to say that what unites you is greater than what

divides you. It's not true. A lot of people who call themselves Labour

moderates came into politics because they want to save the reformed

capital it. . Jeremy Corbyn wants to replace... People have been miscast

in the media. It's completely in a different place politically to the

Parliamentary Labour Party. You have interrupted me, I'm interrupting you

because you are just talking nonsense here. Of course people

stand for Parliament who're a part of the Parliamentary democracy we

believe in a form of capitalism which is ameliorated by having an

economy which is a mixed economy. We believe in the state, we believe in

making sure that we have a strong country but we look after the poor

and the weak and, of course, we are a united country. That is what pulls

us together. The united party you meant, not a united country? We lead

a united country around a party. I have to stop you there. Our hour is

up. We're in Hartlepool next week

with former Greek finance minster Yanis Varoufakis,

the man who once owned the Daily Telegraph Conrad Black

and Ken Clarke for the Tories. The following week

we'll be in Gloucester. Come and join us, Hartlepool

or Gloucester, go to our website, If you are listening tonight

on Radio 5Live, the debate goes My thanks to all our panel here and

to all of you who came to this superb museum at the Royal Air Force

in Hendon. Until next week on Question Time, good night.