20/10/2016 Question Time

Ken Clarke, who first served in Margaret Thatcher's Government,

was Chancellor of the Exchequer under John Major and is retiring

at the next election after 50 years as an MP.

Labour's Shadow Education Secretary, promoted by Jeremy Corbyn

this summer, after just one year as an MP Angela Rayner.

From Ukip, not an MP or MEP but the runner-up in their

Economist and former Finance Minister of Greece now

trying to found a new pan-European political movement Yanis Varoufakis.

And the historian and previous proprietor of the Daily Telegraph,

who served two years in prison in the US for fraud,

protesting his innocence and railing against the American legal system

as fraudulent, fascistic and corrupt, Conrad Black.

As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,

The first question from Carol Hewson, please. Clinton or Trump?

Clinton or Trump, Conrad Black? Trump. On their merits, they are a

Chouly both very nice people. The caricature of the ugly American that

you sometimes imagine Trump to be is not the real Donald Trump. He is a

very amusing raconteur and a very generous man. And she is a most

gracious woman. Conversationally, she is a good deal more course than

he is. But the reason I think it should be Trump is that the last 20

years have been the 20 worst years of presidential misgovernment in the

history of the United States, by both parties. You know the great

recession, the housing bubble, that they doubled the deficit. 233 years

of accumulated deficit doubled in seven years to produce a 1% economic

growth rate, after 15 million people have fallen out of the workforce,

the shambles in the Middle East, abandoning virtually all the ground

forces, military capability, for a whole decade there. And now we have

the Russians and Iranians as allies in what is left of Iraq. And they

are opponents at least half the time in what is left of Syria and this

horrible humanitarian crisis largely generated by well-intentioned but

incompetent American - led intervention. And why Trump? One, he

is not complicit in any of it. They took Congress away from Clinton and

brought in Gingerich, they took it back and gave it to Nancy Pelosi,

brought it back. Both parties, legislative and executive branch,

have been incompetent for 20 years and Donald is not complicit in any

of it. There is one other aspect. These are not dynasty is, Bush and

Clinton. To the extent that I know them, they are nice people, but that

is not the issue. 32 years in a row, from 1981 to 2013, one member or

other of one of those families was in one of the three top officers in

the US government, President, Vice President and secretary of the

state. 32 years in a row. They are passing the great offices of state

back and forth amongst themselves. It is a stitch up, and Donald is

right, it is time for a change. Angela Rayner. Nobody will be

surprised to hear me say absolutely, Hillary, if I am given the choice

between Hillary and Donald Trump, and not just because of her gender.

We have always had a close relationship with the United States

and it petrified me that we would become a laughing stock across the

world if someone like Donald Trump is at the helm of the United States.

I think he is a misogynist, he has said horrible things about people

and instead of uniting the United States and having a focus

on how to bring about a globalised world, free from tyranny and abuse,

he seems to want to provoke more of it. So I would want to see Hillary,

rather than Donald Trump. The woman in the green jacket. With the size

of the United States of America, is the best you can come up with, these

candidates? Ken Clarke. I agree with that. I would vote for Clinton if I

was American. I actually agree with some of Conrad's comments on the

problems of American politics, which is not satisfactory. I agree with

his criticism of policy in the Middle East for the last 20 years,

which has not actually been a triumph. But the idea that Donald

Trump is the answer, I probably don't need to argue too fervently to

a British television audience, or an audience in Hartlepool. Why? Well,

the whole thing, he is a ridiculous parody. In public he may be a

delightful and charming man in private, but I wouldn't know. As

Conrad says, I'm surprised. He comes over as the most outrageous kind of

loudmouth food. If his gaffes were deliberate, it would be better but

he is not doing it to provoke. He keeps saying silly and quite

offensive things. The tragedy is that this is an election for the

Chief Executive of the most powerful nation in the world. There are a

huge list of problems to be tackled, some of which Conrad has mentioned,

others we can think of. It has a great bearing on us. And the debate

that is going on, the public debate, it is farcical that this is the way

you are deciding this crucial post for the next four years. You, on the

gangway. As far as Clinton is concerned, the reason she is not

running away with it is because she is part of the establishment. We can

agree or disagree with some old Trump all we want, but at the end of

the day, here's that outsider. That is the only reason why he has got

this far in the first place. Are you for Trump or Clinton? Neither. If I

had a vote it would be Gary Johnson. The woman at the back. This is a hot

topic for me because we have dual nationality and I vote in the US

presidential election. Hillary Clinton, compared to Donald Trump,

he is a Boy Scout compared to her. You could not trust her if her

tongue came has a litany. Anyone else, Conrad is right, would be in

jail for what she has done. It is only because of this Administration

that she is not, and Donald Trump is definitely the best person to go

with, given the choice. APPLAUSE

Yanis Varoufakis. Well, I was asked this question a few months ago. I

was in New York and on stage with Noam Chomsky. We were both asked,

what would we do if we were Americans and had a vote in the

night of states. Both of us, in one voice, said, if we were in a safe

state we would vote for somebody else. If you are left, the Green

Party, if you are right leaning, the Libertarian party. But if you are in

a swing state, you hold your nose and you vote for Hillary. And the

reason why you need to hold your nose is that, Wessberg by whisper,

e-mail by e-mail, memo by memo, we are finding out the truth about

Hillary Clinton who is servile to Wall Street, geopolitically

irresponsible and has nothing but contempt for the democratic process

within her own party. But having said that, Donald Trump, yes, he is

an outsider and I like outsiders. I consider myself an outsider in

politics. But let me remind you that Benito Mussolini was an outsider and

that was not a very good choice for Italians.

APPLAUSE Allow me to make the point, David

and Carol, that the juxtaposition with Mussolini was not arbitrary.

Mussolini also used exactly the same strategy of the ring up support

through cultivating fear and loathing and division. He was also

appealing to blue-collar workers, the abandoned working-class.

Mussolini introduced Social Security in Italy. That is fascism for you.

Dividing people, turning one part of the population against the other,

pacifying the working class by means of some transfers, and cultivating

the ugliest and more vulgar aspects of humanity. Lisa Duffy. I have

family in America and they are so concerned with what is happening out

there. As the lady said, is this the best America has to offer? That is

shocking, to be honest with you. They are both deeply unpopular

characters. Theresa May is going to need to build a relationship with

whoever wins in 20 days. And to make sure we have a stable western

society. But actually, Hillary's experience being Secretary of State

puts her ahead of Trump. She is ahead in the polls. What Trump has

done, and we can compare a lot of it to what happened here with Brexit,

it is disaffected voters, voters who feel the establishment no longer

represents them. I think that is why Trump is building this momentum.

Your leader of Ukip is a Trump supporter and was last night at the

debate. Nigel is his own man and... I thought he was Ukip's man. Nigel

is in America making his own decision. Ukip, from my perspective,

should not get involved in American politics. We did not like it when

Oban my came over here and said we should vote to stay, so why should

we go over there just to mop but that is Nigel's choice and he is

supporting Trump as Nigel Farage. The comparison is that there are

many disaffected people out there and this is why Trump is building

momentum. I don't feel that if I was over there I could vote for Trump.

Equally, as the gentleman said, I would probably be going for a third

option. It is deeply concerning. Yes, you, sir. Conrad Black said

that Donald Trump was not complicit in some of the American decisions

over the last few, but what he is absolutely complicit in is the

systematic degradation of women, whether it is verbal, whether it is

physical... APPLAUSE

How anybody could put a cross in the box next to a man who has said and

done the things he has done to women... I could not look my

daughter in the eye if I voted for that man. The fact is, he has a

perfect record as an equal opportunity employer. He is

definitely an absolutely fanatical proponent and practitioner of equal

pay for work of equal value. He promotes women. He is not a

misogynist, certainly not a racist. I agree that some of the things he

has said have been outrageous but you will note, if you look at it,

that the Republican primaries this year pulled 60% more votes than the

Republican primaries four years ago. That is because Donald has gone

after what here would be the Alf Garnett vote, people who do not vote

and think the whole thing is a stitch up, a bunch of snobs

pretending to go through democracy and they have nothing to do with it.

Donald is getting these people energised and up and out. And he has

only said what he felt he needed to do to get those people going. He has

made absolutely clear that he is for legitimate immigration. He is

absolutely in favour of women's writes. As for the British angle, I

must say for Hillary, too, both of them would be a massive improvement

in terms of respect for Britain and caring to build back the great

British - American alliance of Roosevelt and Churchill and Reagan

and Thatcher, both candidates would do that. What Donald Trump has said

does matter and the fact that he has said so many degrading things about

women is a disgrace. He basically condone sexual assault on women. He

apologised. Oh, it is OK then. He did not apologise for calling the

Mexicans rapists that must be kept out of the country by building a

huge wall that Mexico should pay for. This is the kind of investment

in hatred. 12 million illegal migrants. What has the political

class of America been doing? 12 million unskilled workers come in a

legally and just sit there. That is not leadership. But he called them

rapists. He called a few of them rapists. He said the percentage is

higher. The trouble is that he has taken this debate into the argument

about trivia. I could not care less what insult the pearls against

Mexicans. Obviously his behaviour towards women is outrageous. It

distracts from the point that we want a better government of the most

powerful nation in the world. He gets votes, as Conrad just said, it

is protest, antiestablishment protest, anti-Washington protest,

people disappointed, change is not helping them, those who miss out, as

Theresa May says. It produces Marine Le Pen in France, the 5-star

movement led by a professional comedian in Italy, who is winning

elections now. I could go throughout Europe. There are groups, and

actually Nigel Farage also represented protest, as did the

Leave vote, which is why he is out there supporting him. Donald is more

serious and his party slogan is not the F word.

We have had a quarter of the programme on this, we'll know in a

couple of weeks who it is. Gary Young please? Is it time for the

MPs, media and the Remainers to stop complaining and positively embrace

the will of the British majority? APPLAUSE.

Ken Clarke, you were the person who said a referendum isn't binding,

it's just an opinion poll? I firstly it's in the interests of Britain to

be in the European Union and we have benefitted from it over the last 40

years. The country's been confirmed. It gave us the chance of reforming

when I was a young man and made us a modern country with a modern

economy. We had to create that, we are in a big setting in the single

market. I have never been in favour of referendums, I was open about

that. My constituents voted to Remain. I've been on the losing side

of general elections, when I turn up in Parliament I'm not told I agree

with the Parliament, it's wrong for me to start voting against the

education policy or something, and I am there to use my best judgment

which happens to coincide with my constituents. The other thing is,

all right, we voted Brexit, I'm sure we are going to leave the European

Union. The campaign, the arguments did not touch on what we actually

voted for, what system are we now putting in place. Am I going to be

told that we are now going to renegotiate the single market, the

customs union, presumably elaborate negotiations will go about trade,

automobiles and components. I'm going to be told I don't agree with

that. And it was oh no, no, no, the British people have spoken and have

decided that this arrangement is the one Parliament's got to vote for.

That is what they decided isn't it? It was never even discussed. A whole

lot of different reasons why they voted. Absolutely nobody even talked

about what we did instead of staying in the European Union. Brexiteers in

Parliament don't agree with each other. No, but do you embrace the

will of the British majority which is what Gary's question was, that

the majority want to leave the EU and do you support that? Not for the

first time. I am totally against referendums, but I don't want to

make that... Is that That dodges the arguments about Europe. I've often

looked at an opinion poll and said I don't agree with the majority, I

think they're mistaken, I don't think that's genuinely in our

interests. My job as a politician is to try to argue to change opinion to

vote for what I believe to be right and then if I get chance... Gary? I

think during the lead up to the referendum, lots of people had done

a lot more research than the media or politicians gave us credit for.

Absolutely. APPLAUSE.

You know, we spent a lot more time and a lot more effort Wading through

the rubbish that we heard and the silly in-fighting and all of the

rubbish statistics that was coming out. We done a lot more research. I

know a lot of people, and obviously there's a lot of people that did

that too. Politicians work for us, they work for us, they don't work

for anybody else. They work for us.

APPLAUSE. ? You think Ken Clarke should accept

what's happened in other words? I just think that all I've heard since

the referendum has been the result which was a shock result. It wasn't

for me, but it was a shock result. It's negativity, that's all I've

heard. I want to hear positivity, I want to hear some... Positivity

breeds positive Li Tie, so at the end of the day, my kids come to me

and ask me what Brexit is all about, all they see on the news and stuff

on the telly is negative. They are getting taught negative stuff at

school too which I'm not happy about -- positivity. Lisa Duffy? You make

a fantastic point, when are they going to stop moaning. Ken doesn't

like referendums, is that because people are making decisions?

APPLAUSE. More people than ever before voted

in that referendum and 17.4 million people wanted to leave. That is a

phenomenal result. Our politicians should not ignore that. I find it

quite bizarre that the MPs that are now claiming the sovereignty from

our Parliament, they're demanding their sovereignty rights when they

have been giving away our sovereignty for the last 30 years

and I think that's ridiculous. APPLAUSE.

. I don't think they are moving fast enough. Had I become leader of Ukip

I would have pushed for the repealing of the 1972 communities

act and get the decision-making back in the hands of our Parliament, not

trying to get 27 member states all to agree around a table. If we talk

about trade and single market, America, two trillion pounds in

terms of investment and they don't have to be part of the single

market, they don't have to have free movement of people. Half a trillion

in China and 164 million in Japan. We have got countries queueing up

wanting the trade with us. Let's get on with the job, please.

OK, the woman there? APPLAUSE.

The second row? I think saying that people should stop complaining about

the result when they voted to Remain is saying you shouldn't stand up for

what we think. I didn't get the ability to vote because I'm 16 and I

thought we should Remain. To say people should stop moaning for what

they believe in. I think we should have the right to say what they

think, I don't think people should say stop complaining. If you voted

for something and it didn't go your way, you should be able to say. I'm

not saying you can't have an opinion. I'm saying in the media,

especially, as well as politicians that I've seen on the media, all

it's about is doom and gloom. The vote's been, Ken Clarke said he

doesn't like referendums but that's in the past. We have voted, let's

embrace it and take it forward. Yanis Varoufakis? Before the

referendum, even though I'm one of those foreigners that you want to

get out... No, no, no, let's get it right. Thank you, I feel loved here.

I came to this country, Scotland, England, Wales, Leeds, campaigning

for what I would refer to a radical Remain in the EU against this EU.

You folks didn't buy this argument, you voted for Brexit. As a democrat,

I have to agree with you. I despise firstly the demonisation of the

people who voted against us, people like me, and I despise the way in

which the establishment would like to do to the British people what the

European Union did to the Irish in 2008. You member the Irish and the

Lisbon Treaty, voted against it, and they were asked to vote again and

they were told they would have to keep voting until they delivered the

right verdict, right. Sure thing. Having said that, the greatest

argument for Brexit, even though it didn't convince me because I remain

a Remainor, the greatest argument for Brexit concerns the restoration

of national sovereignty and the sovereignty of the House of Commons.

-- Remainor. But what does this mean at this juncture where we are? It

means we need to create the circumstances for the House of

Commons to enter into a debate on what kind of Brexit you have,

because my interpretation of the 23rd June is that you lot, the

British people I mean, since I'm not one of you, what you said to the

establishment was, start cooking, recipe will follow. In other words,

we want Brexit, we don't know what Brexit we want because we haven't

had an opportunity to discuss this. Yes and we were clear it was about

managing... You were aware. Hang on, Yanis, you know Europe well enough,

you were a Finance Minister in Greece, you know the workings of it.

It would have been impossible to say we want Brexit and by the way this

is the detail. Of course. It's not a criticism, I'm saying it's a fact

that Britain has decided for Brexit, but you've not decided which Brexit

and there is a multitude of potential Brexit and which Brexit

you choose is going to determine the future of this nation and I do not

want to see that future being decided behind closed doors by this

Department of Exit, whatever it is that you call it, staffed by several

people of very low IQ, in my estimation. Really, who are these?

Who're absolutely outside the mainstream... You should... I think

you have to name names if you are going to say that. I'm not going to

mention names, you know the names very well. All right. The woman

here? The biggest shock for me was yes, the country voted out, so for

me, why isn't our Parliament, why aren't our politicians backing the

people, the people have said it. After all, we are the ones that vote

you in, so why aren't you backing the people, why isn't that

happening? Another big shock... Ken Clarke who says he disagreed and 48%

of the country agree with Ken Clarke, he should ignore all that?

The people have said they want out. So why aren't you backing us?

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Leave the EU, we want to take

control of our own British industry. Do you want companies that produce

staff in your area? Every time they export something to the continent,

do you want them to have to submit themselves to customs report? You

are going into detail which you have already said... Hang on, you are

going into detail which you have already said it would have been

impossible to know then. Conrad Black? I was a Brexiter because

Prime Minister Cameron promised full on treaty change. He came back with,

as I understand it, an EU acceptance of a principle that would consider

British applications for varied treatment of migrants. That's not

full on British treaty change. I am a traditionalist, and I believe in

this aisle, it's one of the world's greatest nation. Ken Clarke and I

have had this argument for 30 years and always very cordial and usually

over a good deal of Scottish whisky, but the fact is, you British must

understand that you are one of the greatest nations in the world.

APPLAUSE. I think the European countries have

set aside the horrible quarrels that have made the country a blood bath

for thousands of years. We are all rejoicing that, but that doesn't

mean that Britain has to be treated like a town council in Portugal or

something where you have to raise bananas in certain ways and have

one-size-fits-all condoms and everything, for goodness sake, it's

a great nation. APPLAUSE.

You on the gangway? The comment I find insulting is from Gary on the

front row suggesting his children's heads are being filled with

anti-Brexit ideas. Working in a school myself, the one thing we have

tried to do over the last few months, we have had so far two

topics tonight, Trump and Clinton and Brexit. We want students to

watch this programme and to engage. The last thing we need is throw-away

comments like that suggesting schools are filling kids' heads with

personal opinions, that is not what is happening. We'll come back to you

in a moment. I was a shop steward, I earned my stripes on the shop floor.

I always respect the people's vote and my constituency voted much the

same as this constituency and they wanted out of Europe. I understand

that loud and clear. One of the things we are trying to do though in

being optimistic about Britain's future is clarity on what that

future is because we know half of our exports go to Europe. We need

those exports, we need that access to the single market and we also

know that the Government has no plan around controls on immigration, for

example, and we know that that was a big concern for people. There is no

blueprint, no plan, they've cast us aside, our economy's already on the

brink because of this. Universities, we are also losing research places

because of what the Government's done.

APPLAUSE. Just to get this clear, you accept a

majority voted to leave the EU, but you think that they actually want to

stay in the single market? People want a decent jobs. You

mentioned the single market. Are you saying people who wanted to get out

wanted to stay in the single market? Our economy is already suffering as

a result, our pound has weakened as a result of that. And Theresa May is

dithering all the time on the decisions and there is no clarity

about what it means. That is already happening. What will happen is that

our public services and our jobs will be the ones that go first. That

is what I worry about. APPLAUSE

The woman in the third row. I read recently that Deutsche Bank is in a

great state of crisis. It holds a large debt, the depths of many

nations in the European Union. It is linked directly to the European

Central Bank. It is linked to Barclays Bank, to Citibank. It is

like a house of cards waiting to fall. The audit for the European

Union has not been written off in 20 odd years. And we want to stay in a

union which is crumbling already. I just find it absolutely...

APPLAUSE The man on the far right. I would

like to ask the members of Parliament what part of democracy

they don't understand? APPLAUSE

Parliament had a ballot, did it not, in order to have the referendum?

They voted 6-1 to have the ballot. You took the ballot, took the

chance, had the referendum. You did not get the answer you wanted and

now you want to turn it round. I did not vote for the last government.

Can I have a ballot again? I am not saying, not suggesting we ignore the

vote. Yes, you are. As a member of Parliament I have a responsible T

for British jobs and workers. APPLAUSE

Your job is to represent the public. The people who elect you. Start

doing your job. If you don't like it, clear off, simple as that.

APPLAUSE 58% of my constituents voted to

remain and you want me to tell them to clear off. I don't wish to do

that. I tried to represent all my constituents, I'll always have. I

tried to use my judgment of what is in the national interest, the

interest of my constituents and then I go back and I am accountable for

it. If they don't like me, they can throw me out. That is parliamentary

democracy. We have introduced referendums. Harold Wilson started

it in modern times. But I've lost that argument, and Brexit, I lost

that in the referendum. The referendum was one question with 100

difficult questions wrapped up in it. The one thing that all the

Brexit supporters are agreed on is that we leave the European

Parliament, leave the European Council, the political institutions.

No one is going to argue with that. Different people who voted Brexit,

even different MPs, current ministers, do not agree, did it mean

that we cease our open free trading arrangements with Europe, or did it

mean we stay in and break political links? You cannot leave free access

to a market of 500 million people without making yourself poorer than

you otherwise would be. The Americans don't have, the Japanese

don't have that access. That's why in the middle of long, difficult

negotiations which are about to break down, trying to get a better

trade agreement, the US- EU agreement. We pull out, all kinds of

difficulties, as Yanis was saying, now have to be negotiated. Given

what you say, was the Prime Minister wrong to say that a vote to leave

would mean leaving the single market, which was what he said

during the campaign? David Cameron said it. He said that, and some of

the Brexit supporters did. Others did not. The main are given in the

campaign was that it was scaremongering to say that we would

in any way be effected in our trading. The main our demand that

people like Boris were using was, no, no, they have to sell cars to

us, nothing will change. All that trade and business stuff, no, it

will be exactly as it was. Now we are saying we are pulling out and it

is extremely complicated to work out what you do. Hartlepool needs new

investment. Modern jobs. This country is one of the most business

friendly places to invest. Plenty of places like Hartlepool have not

shared in that. That is why we have a massive protest vote in the

referendum. But making it less attractive for investment is much

going to do much good for your children, my children, the next

generation who want to do well in the modern world.

APPLAUSE Mr Clarke, why can't we do through

the World Trade Organisation, with the European Union, as all the rest

of the world do? It is inferior. Excuse me, that is not inferior.

Thanks to Theresa May, she got a promise that she cannot deliver.

There is no way that this government can promise protection and

compensation without providing the same protection for other companies

like Nissan. The British government simply does not have the capacity to

do this. So you already see that Theresa May has got herself into a

major degree of trouble, simply because you haven't had the chance

yet to sit down and have a proper debate in Parliament. And I don't

believe this Parliament has a mandate to have this debate. The

next one will. What we mean by democracy is a parliamentary process

where you run in an election, contest an election on the basis of

your proposal about what kind of Brexit you have, and then you have a

full parliamentary term to discuss this. In the end, you reach a mature

decision. What did you say? We did not vote, we voted for Brexit. The

reason it is going to take so long and it is going to be hardest

because the likes of Ken Clarke, who has never done a hard days work in

his life, needs to roll his up and get on with it. Just hang on a

second. Conrad Black, you said you voted Brexit. What do you think the

outcome will be? Do you think it will be obfuscated by people like

Ken Clarke want to fight every inch of the way against it? No. But I

suspect I am in a minority of one in this room in saying this. I think

the Europeans will come to their senses and actually, especially

under the influence of the German and British governments, and will

actually make a serious request of the UK to reconsider and make

further concessions. There is a chance that this new Prime Minister

would judge, change the game, and would therefore have to be presented

not necessarily in a referendum but at least considered by the country.

I think the Europeans will come to that view because, two reasons. The

objections expressed to Mike were expressed in the referendum and are

widely felt in many other European countries. So in that sense, you are

a bellwether. It is not Britain against 26 others, and do not

imagine it is. Secondly, it would be a terrible loss. It is a big lock

button next to Germany, this is the biggest country, and as a moral

authority in the world it is the most powerful, morally, of all

countries and would be a terrible loss to Europe to use -- to lose

Britain. So despite the perversity and the nauseating anti-democratic

tendencies of many in charge of Brussels, they are not all

completely insane. Even if they have to be muscled heavily by elected

governments... You live in a parallel universe where Brussels is

rational. We are not leaving Europe, but the European Union. Despite the

noises coming out of European leaders that we are going to have a

tough time, you think they will actually change their view. I think

they will have a stab at it. You really think Europe will let us come

back in with no penalties whatsoever? They have already said

that if Parliament overturns the ruling they will impose penalties.

There will be in vocations if we want to go back in anyhow, so why

not just do Article 50 and get out. That is what we voted for. Let's go.

There is no way that Europe will come back with open arms. I was not

saying how you should respond. They will not come back with open arms. I

don't think so. Let's do article 50 now and get out. OK, article 50.

Right, we have a lot of hands up. Week by week this is going on, but I

think we should take another question.

We're in Gloucester next week and Watford the following week.

Come and speak your mind, I'll give the details at the end.

Let me take a question from Carole Cook, please. Should all child

migrants be given age tests before being allowed into the country? A

question about the dispute about people coming in from Calais and

whether they are really children, and where are the children, and why

are there people who seem a great deal older coming in? Yanis

Varoufakis. I don't think you should be looking a gift horse in the

mouth. I know this is a jarring dissonances and this part of the

world, but I have met refugees, I have met migrants. We have the

largest number of them in Greece. Indeed, something most people do not

know is that in 1991 when the Iron Curtain came down, 1 million

refugees came to Greece and they stayed, never left. The result is

that we are a stronger and better country.

APPLAUSE On this issue, allow me to make a

couple of points. Firstly, those kids, whether they are kids or young

adults, even if they are 25, even if they are 30, even if they are 40...

What are you complaining about? That they are 70, whatever, that they are

old-age pension -- old-age pensioners seeking somewhere to

retire! The simple proposition I put to you is this. Treat these people

with respect as they are coming into your country. Treat their trauma,

treat them as human beings and they will love you for ever and they will

become responsible, responsive supporters of the United Kingdom.

APPLAUSE It is absolutely the right thing to

do to help the children that need help, that are sat in their camps in

Calais. Whereas treating their parents as if they are rascals and

should be despised, right? That is such hypocrisy. You care about the

children and demonise the parents and older brothers and uncles?

APPLAUSE We have seen young adults coming

into our country and we are being told they are children. I have six

children, a 26-year-old and a 13-year-old. I know which is going

to work and which is going to school. You can tell who is an adult

and who is a child. Where are the young children, the girls, the

teenagers? We need to get them with their families if they have families

here. There are foster families that will take in these children and love

and care for them. They will build a rapport, they will stay with our

country. The young adults, the men, they will stay in the country

because they will now start claiming asylum. But for every adult that

comes into the country there is a vulnerable child still in that

Calais Campbell. And that concerns me greatly. Ken Clarke. Well, in

every advanced country, every successful city in the world, all of

those that are leading the current world economy, in my lifetime I have

seen the emergence of a multinational, multiethnic,

multicultural society. I saw my first black face when I was about

ten years old and was rather puzzled to see somebody with a different

complexion. Now, unlike some people, I don't get upset if I hear people

speaking a foreign language I don't understand on the bus. And in my

working life, half the time I am meeting people who were born in

another country, or their parents were. And I think society in this

country today is much better than it was. I also think we have benefited

from the change. As long as we control it properly, let him honest

people who contribute to our economy and live here properly. We have two

control the numbers. I don't want to lose our reputation as the most

tolerant country in the world. We are getting a reputation for

disliking foreigners outside our boundaries. The idea that we would

scrutinise the teeth of a few hundred young boys in Calais, in the

hope that we can find one who is just over 18, so we can keep a few

more of them out, strikes me as a fairly ridiculous and actually quite

unpleasant suggestion. No doubt Mr Trump will try it on the Mexican

border. APPLAUSE

You, Sir, at the very back? There is a bigger picture here. The problem

is the EU don't allow us to know who's got criminal records that are

coming in from the EU and what we are finding is that prisons are

filling up with foreigners. We need to protect our own people. Yes, we

can take genuine child refugees, but we need to protect UK citizens at

the same time. The person on your right? This is nothing to do with

the EU, this is about people coming from Syria and the idea that Lisa

said you can separate the kids from the adults, if people are coming

from Syria, you don't want the kids, you want families to come, you don't

want to separate people. APPLAUSE.

I think we have to put it into context. Save the Children estimate

around 200 children that have got family connections here that would

be coming from the Calais camps. At the moment, 14 have come to the UK,

14. The Government have been incredibly slow on this matter.

Those children are at risk of sexual exploitation, abuse and they're

living in squalor. We have always had a proud tradition to call

ourselves a decent society, we always look after them and we

already have, coming back to Carole's question, we already have

age tests. The issue of X-raying children's teeth, it wouldn't work.

The experts say it wouldn't work. That's not a way of doing it. Do you

know what, are we going to treat kids like livestock? I've got a

19-year-old son, he's still my baby, he's 19 but he's still my baby and I

don't think we should treat human beings that way.

APPLAUSE. Jack Straw said he'd certainly not

rule out dental checks, he was once the Home Secretary.

ALL SPEAK AT ONCE. Conrad Black? I think everybody in

the room agrees that all countries need immigration and benefit from

immigration. I think everybody in the room would agree that these are

terribly tragic humanitarian problems that have arisen and we all

want to be as generous as we practically can be.

Yanis makes a very good point, Greece has borne the brunt. Kenneth

is surely right, we want the immigration, we want to be generous,

but we have to control the numbers and when I say we, I mean all

countries. Your ending comment was a gratuitous comment. We'll let people

in legally. That's reasonable. One more point? The woman behind

you, Sir, yes? It's fair enough to say that we want to limit

immigration and while actually I'm one of the immigrants that is no

longer welcome here, I'm Polish, I've been here 23 years, never been

discrepe negotiated against until Brexit came about. My question is to

Conrad. Before you go on, in what way do you feel discriminated

against? I feel I'm no longer wanted by #5 52% of the voters because the

majority of the people that voted... Can I just finish, please. You can

come and boo me in a minute. 52% of the voters voted against

immigration. Polish is the second most popular language in this

country. We don't want to stop immigration, we want to control it.

Therefore the majority of the people... That's the difference The

majority voted against the Pole who is work extremely hard. People work

for 12 hours seven days a week, they work in such conditions that most of

the people would not want to work and yet they are the ones that the

British population wants to get out. I married a British person, I've got

British children. I love the British society but, at the moment I don't

feel welcomed. Thank you.

APPLAUSE. All right. We'll come back to you,

Lisa, because we have a question from Timothy Fleming. Our newest

councillor, congratulations. Name sake. Well done, you. Timothy

Fleming - dentist! What is left for Ukip after Brexit? Are recent

events, the death throes of a party without a purpose? In other words,

you won what you wanted at the referendum. Lisa Duffy, are you in

your death throes? Absolutely not. Ukip are more relevant than ever. We

have, at the moment, won the referendum, we haven't actually got

Brexit as we heard here this evening. So we have got a huge

amount of work to do as a political party to keep that pressure sure on.

But also, we are going into a second phase of our political party. That

is getting more councillors elected. We are at the official opposition

here which is absolutely amazing and well done to those councillors. But

also, we have a fully costed manifesto that couldn't be argued

with in 2015. It's about building on that and now going and selling that

to the electorate and getting ourselves fit for purpose. Why have

you fallen so badly in the poles since the referendum? It depends how

you look at it. What is your best? 47.9%. Labour watch out because we

only needed a small percentage rate. APPLAUSE.

We are going through some change at the top of the party at the moment,

highly embarrassing at some points and really strong in others. By

November 28th, we'll have a very strong NEC, a new party leader and

we'll really be pushing on and selling ourselves to the electorate.

Are you running for that job? I've made some serious considerations but

I think other people are going to come on board, such as Paul Nuttall

and Suzanne Evans so I should leave it to them and I'll focus on my

community and celebrate 50 years of Christmas lights and getting those

lights up this year. Ken Clarke, do you think we are watching the death

throes of Ukip? It's going to have to change, obviously. It's coming

over to you, Steven Waffle wanting to join the Tories? Some will come

back to us. Will you welcome them? Depends on their views. The

referendum result was a triumph for Nigel Farage. I can't remember a

politician who's taken up a single issue cause and won it. He was

personally almost responsible with the help of his party and he was the

first man who had the bright idea of getting more votes for leaving the

European Union by blaming the European Union for immigration and

rousing fears about foreigners and all the rest of it. People like

Boris and Michael really gave him respectability at the end. Nigel's

been respectful for the past 23 years. They can't carry on because

they won the referendum. They have got to find a cause and Ukip aren't

good at giving detail when you get to difficult issues, starting with

trade, environment and security and so on. Have a read of our 2015

manifesto. Sounds as though in Hartlepool, they have also found

what's happened in every other western democracy still the vehicle

for just angry protest, a feeling in towns...

APPLAUSE. I personally would like to find some

way of getting responding to that angry protest, but getting it

channelled into political outlets which are more attractive than Ukip

is I think. I very much hope it never becomes a formidable force in

British politics. I think we already are. Look at what we've achieved so

far without a huge amount of MPs. Think what we'll be like when we

have a huge amounts of MPs in 2020. The woman there? I found you cape

poisonous force in Hartlepool in recent years.

APPLAUSE. Poisonous force? Yes, I'm a

secondary schoolteacher and some of the incidents - it links back to

what the lady said on the last point there, that to me Ukip have almost

given the licence to people for views that would have been regarded

as disgraceful if the past are suddenly OK to voice some of these

opinions about, get out of our country. I don't believe that. I'm

seeing a lot of that. I am. It's unfair to say - this is not

something I would share my personal opinions. The gentleman earlier said

that. The Ukip influence has inblamed it. The way we spoke about

Trump earlier. He's given licence to people to do the ludicrous things.

We have got to keep moving because we are almost at the end. Angela

Rayner? What upsets me is when you have two women in the audience when

they said they feel intimidated and that it's been toxic that they have

been booed and hissed because of it. It's damaging to our country the way

they try to divide us. They have no answers to the real questions. They

wanted to privatise the National Health Service. We do not want to

privatise the NHS, read the manifesto. It is my turn to speak.

It is but get your facts right, we don't want to privatise the NHS.

Also your time is very nearly up, so... I think there is some real

concerns we need to take heed of people's anger and start investing

in our communities because people feel fed up that politicians have

all been the same and I intend to do that. We don't need Ukip. The

country needs Ukip. Looking at the situation from the outside as I do,

I'm amazed by the forces of Theresa May and all the other Remainers who

suddenly became Brexiters. People must wonder wonder can they trust

people. To answer your question, I think that Lee Sarks you have a very

difficult task ahead because Theresa May, she's now turned the Tory party

into Ukip and Ukip doesn't have to win any elections -- Lisa. This

Brexiteer mindset has infiltrated the Ukip party at the detriment of

people like Ken Clarke. Conrad Black? I think the Conservative

Party should make an unrefusable offer to Ukip to join, as parties

did in a different context a long time ago. It was the Conservative

Unionist Party. On the matter of democracy that has been banded about

from different angles, Britain and the United States are democracies

and in a democracy ultimately the people are always right, the

question is are we the best candidates the Americans can get.

There were 14 candidates for the Republican nomination and remember

this, Donald, whatever everyone thinks of him, he kept Ted Kroos

out, he kept those at the shooting ranges out of the control of the

party of Lincoln and Roosevelt and Eisenhower and Reagan. He did do

that. Hands up but our time is up. We're in Gloucester next week

with the film director Ken Loach The following week

we'll be in Watford. Come and join us in Gloucester

or Watford, go to our website, If you are listening tonight

on Radio 5Live, the debate goes My thanks to the panelists and the

audience. From Hartlepool, until next week,

Goodnight.