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Welcome to Question Time, which tonight comes from Maidenhead. | 0:00:02 | 0:00:05 | |
And with us here tonight, | 0:00:09 | 0:00:12 | |
the Conservative chair of the health select committee, Sarah Wollaston. | 0:00:12 | 0:00:16 | |
Labour's Shadow Justice Secretary, Richard Burgon. | 0:00:16 | 0:00:20 | |
The former leader of Ukip who stepped down last week | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
and is now available | 0:00:23 | 0:00:25 | |
for any ambassadorial post he might be offered, Nigel Farage. | 0:00:25 | 0:00:28 | |
The novelist and New Statesman columnist, Will Self. | 0:00:28 | 0:00:32 | |
And the former Tory MP | 0:00:32 | 0:00:34 | |
who left British politics to live in New York, Louise Mensch. | 0:00:34 | 0:00:37 | |
And as always, | 0:00:50 | 0:00:51 | |
you don't need to feel left out if you're watching this at home. | 0:00:51 | 0:00:53 | |
You can join the debate - Facebook, Twitter, | 0:00:53 | 0:00:56 | |
or you can text us on: | 0:00:56 | 0:00:57 | |
So, let's get started with this question from Lewis Terry, please. | 0:01:00 | 0:01:04 | |
Lewis Terry. | 0:01:04 | 0:01:05 | |
Is Donald Trump a worthy recipient | 0:01:05 | 0:01:07 | |
of Time magazine's Person of the Year? | 0:01:07 | 0:01:10 | |
Right, Time magazine, every year, | 0:01:10 | 0:01:11 | |
makes somebody the Person of the Year, | 0:01:11 | 0:01:13 | |
the person who's had the greatest influence, for better or worse. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:16 | |
Is he a worthy recipient? | 0:01:16 | 0:01:18 | |
-Nigel Farage? -Oh, yes. | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:01:21 | 0:01:22 | |
Oh, yeah. I mean... | 0:01:22 | 0:01:25 | |
The whole point of the prize is whether Time magazine | 0:01:25 | 0:01:29 | |
think you're a force for good or a force for bad, | 0:01:29 | 0:01:31 | |
and there aren't many shades of grey | 0:01:31 | 0:01:33 | |
in terms of the way people look at Donald Trump. | 0:01:33 | 0:01:36 | |
Either way, he's made the most dramatic impact | 0:01:36 | 0:01:38 | |
on politics this year. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:40 | |
Everybody thought it was literally impossible | 0:01:40 | 0:01:42 | |
for him even to win the nomination, to get through the primaries. | 0:01:42 | 0:01:45 | |
He did. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:46 | |
And the day before the election, | 0:01:46 | 0:01:48 | |
you know, the New York Times said there was a 97% probability | 0:01:48 | 0:01:52 | |
that Hillary Clinton would win. | 0:01:52 | 0:01:54 | |
He stunned everybody. | 0:01:54 | 0:01:56 | |
He's taking over as president on 20th January. | 0:01:56 | 0:01:59 | |
And not only do I think he's a worthy recipient | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
of Time magazine's Person of the Year. | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
I think he will also, by this time next year, | 0:02:05 | 0:02:07 | |
surprise all of you | 0:02:07 | 0:02:08 | |
by just how popular and good a president he's going to be. | 0:02:08 | 0:02:12 | |
OK. | 0:02:12 | 0:02:14 | |
It is... | 0:02:16 | 0:02:17 | |
-It is influence, not a good influence or a bad influence. -Yes. | 0:02:17 | 0:02:22 | |
-Hitler and Stalin were both chosen as... -Yes. | 0:02:22 | 0:02:26 | |
-And Churchill won. -Yes. | 0:02:26 | 0:02:28 | |
Yeah, no, no, but, I mean, he's been... | 0:02:28 | 0:02:31 | |
-You know, it is an astonishing thing... -OK. | 0:02:31 | 0:02:33 | |
-..that this man has become president. -Will Self? | 0:02:33 | 0:02:35 | |
I always think it's a bit of a paradox that Nigel Farage | 0:02:35 | 0:02:38 | |
subscribes to the great man of history view, really, | 0:02:38 | 0:02:42 | |
given that he doesn't quite shape up to that sort of stature himself. | 0:02:42 | 0:02:47 | |
And while I think that Trump, certainly, | 0:02:47 | 0:02:49 | |
is a personification of major changes in geopolitics, | 0:02:49 | 0:02:55 | |
I'm not so sure that it's the man himself | 0:02:55 | 0:02:57 | |
that's truly significant. | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
It's more what he symbolises. | 0:03:00 | 0:03:02 | |
And... | 0:03:02 | 0:03:03 | |
And in terms of what he symbolises, | 0:03:03 | 0:03:05 | |
has he had the greatest influence on the events of the year? | 0:03:05 | 0:03:07 | |
Well, yes, undoubtedly, | 0:03:07 | 0:03:09 | |
but, I mean, as I say, it's what he symbolises. | 0:03:09 | 0:03:12 | |
As with Brexit, | 0:03:12 | 0:03:13 | |
it was a case that this was... | 0:03:13 | 0:03:16 | |
a political eventuality people didn't expect, | 0:03:16 | 0:03:19 | |
but that's because we've moved beyond the frame of politics | 0:03:19 | 0:03:23 | |
as it's been understood for a long time. | 0:03:23 | 0:03:25 | |
And Trump rode that wave. | 0:03:25 | 0:03:28 | |
To some extent, he kind of created it as well, that's true. | 0:03:28 | 0:03:32 | |
But he... You know, Trump? | 0:03:32 | 0:03:35 | |
Nigel? | 0:03:35 | 0:03:36 | |
This is not Churchill, Hitler and Stalin. | 0:03:36 | 0:03:39 | |
-Thank God, in the case of the two... -Is that good or bad? | 0:03:39 | 0:03:42 | |
In the case of the two latter ones, undoubtedly a good thing, yeah. | 0:03:42 | 0:03:46 | |
So I think that that's kind of weird. | 0:03:46 | 0:03:49 | |
Step back from it a minute, people. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:51 | |
These are not great statesman or people. | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
What are they? | 0:03:54 | 0:03:56 | |
They're grubby little opportunists | 0:03:56 | 0:03:58 | |
who are riding the coat-tails of history. | 0:03:58 | 0:04:00 | |
CHEERING | 0:04:00 | 0:04:02 | |
..Deeply principled. | 0:04:10 | 0:04:12 | |
Louise Mensch? | 0:04:12 | 0:04:15 | |
I cannot believe that I am going to open this show by doing this | 0:04:15 | 0:04:18 | |
after so many years of vociferously opposing Nigel Farage, | 0:04:18 | 0:04:22 | |
but I have to say | 0:04:22 | 0:04:24 | |
that he is being a bit too modest here, | 0:04:24 | 0:04:26 | |
because he was one of the nominees for Time's Person of the Year, | 0:04:26 | 0:04:31 | |
and it was given to Donald Trump, | 0:04:31 | 0:04:33 | |
and he very generously didn't mention that | 0:04:33 | 0:04:35 | |
when he was commending Trump. | 0:04:35 | 0:04:36 | |
I do think it has to be Trump, | 0:04:36 | 0:04:38 | |
because nobody else has provided such an earthquake | 0:04:38 | 0:04:42 | |
as he has done in our politics. | 0:04:42 | 0:04:44 | |
And he is, after all, a consummate showman. | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
And the line I like, living in America and watching this unfold... | 0:04:47 | 0:04:50 | |
Hillary Clinton had an enormous victory in the popular vote, | 0:04:50 | 0:04:53 | |
but you can't cry about that, | 0:04:53 | 0:04:55 | |
you can't change the rules of the game | 0:04:55 | 0:04:57 | |
after it has been played. | 0:04:57 | 0:04:59 | |
Donald Trump won the electoral college, that is it. | 0:04:59 | 0:05:02 | |
However, the favourite comment I had from somebody | 0:05:02 | 0:05:04 | |
was that they said that | 0:05:04 | 0:05:06 | |
all the journalists took Donald Trump literally | 0:05:06 | 0:05:09 | |
with what he said, but not seriously, | 0:05:09 | 0:05:11 | |
whereas the voters took him seriously, but not literally. | 0:05:11 | 0:05:15 | |
They didn't care if this policy or that policy | 0:05:15 | 0:05:17 | |
was contradictory or whatever, they didn't care about that. | 0:05:17 | 0:05:20 | |
What they cared for was that | 0:05:20 | 0:05:22 | |
he stood for anti-political correctness. | 0:05:22 | 0:05:24 | |
They were so tired of being trodden on and sat on by the establishment | 0:05:24 | 0:05:29 | |
and not listened to | 0:05:29 | 0:05:30 | |
that they said, "Let's give the showman a chance," | 0:05:30 | 0:05:32 | |
and that's what's happened. | 0:05:32 | 0:05:34 | |
And with... I will say that with one exception, | 0:05:34 | 0:05:36 | |
I think that Donald Trump | 0:05:36 | 0:05:37 | |
is appointing some very, very good people to his Cabinet. | 0:05:37 | 0:05:42 | |
The name may be Mad Dog Mattis, but this guy is a boss | 0:05:42 | 0:05:46 | |
and I am really encouraged by the shape of his Cabinet so far. | 0:05:46 | 0:05:50 | |
Any views from our audience? | 0:05:50 | 0:05:51 | |
Yes, the woman there in the fourth row on the right. Yes. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:55 | |
Hasn't Donald Trump legitimised locker room talk about women | 0:05:55 | 0:06:00 | |
on an absolutely unacceptable level? | 0:06:00 | 0:06:03 | |
He's also legitimised now saying one thing in politics | 0:06:03 | 0:06:07 | |
as long as it gets a vote, | 0:06:07 | 0:06:08 | |
and then doing something completely different. | 0:06:08 | 0:06:11 | |
So it's all right to say all of these things | 0:06:11 | 0:06:13 | |
if you're a politician. | 0:06:13 | 0:06:14 | |
Once you get elected, you can do whatever you want. | 0:06:14 | 0:06:16 | |
That's what he's legitimised. | 0:06:16 | 0:06:19 | |
Richard... Richard Burgon, what do you think of that? | 0:06:19 | 0:06:23 | |
Well, I was disappointed | 0:06:23 | 0:06:24 | |
when Donald Trump got given this award, | 0:06:24 | 0:06:28 | |
not least because of some of the things that he has said about women, | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
absolutely outrageous, misogynistic things, | 0:06:32 | 0:06:35 | |
not least because of some of the things he said about immigrants | 0:06:35 | 0:06:39 | |
and people of ethnic minority background. | 0:06:39 | 0:06:41 | |
He said, didn't he, that not one single extra Muslim | 0:06:41 | 0:06:44 | |
should be allowed in the United States? | 0:06:44 | 0:06:47 | |
But ultimately, I think the thing about Donald Trump is this. | 0:06:47 | 0:06:50 | |
He's raised people's hope through a fake anti-elitist approach. | 0:06:50 | 0:06:55 | |
I believe, unlike Nigel, that he will disappoint. | 0:06:55 | 0:06:59 | |
He railed against the bankers, | 0:06:59 | 0:07:01 | |
he railed against the current economic way of doing things, | 0:07:01 | 0:07:04 | |
but then appoints somebody from Goldman Sachs | 0:07:04 | 0:07:07 | |
into a top position. | 0:07:07 | 0:07:09 | |
So I don't think it's a welcome thing, | 0:07:09 | 0:07:12 | |
and I am surprised to see Nigel trumpeting Trump so much. | 0:07:12 | 0:07:17 | |
He's trumpeted him so much, | 0:07:17 | 0:07:18 | |
he's now in a situation where he has to decide his own future | 0:07:18 | 0:07:21 | |
whether to be a Tory Lord or Trump's butler. | 0:07:21 | 0:07:25 | |
Um... Well... | 0:07:25 | 0:07:28 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:07:28 | 0:07:29 | |
-Is that the choice you face? -No, I don't think it is. | 0:07:32 | 0:07:35 | |
No. I mean, the thing is, I do know Trump, | 0:07:35 | 0:07:38 | |
I did support Trump in the campaign, I spoke with him on a platform. | 0:07:38 | 0:07:41 | |
I completely accept, you know, | 0:07:41 | 0:07:43 | |
that he says things that shock everybody. | 0:07:43 | 0:07:45 | |
But he also apologises, which is interesting. | 0:07:45 | 0:07:47 | |
Very few people in politics ever apologise. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:49 | |
He rode back on that Muslim comment in quite a big way. | 0:07:49 | 0:07:52 | |
He apologised for locker room talk. | 0:07:52 | 0:07:54 | |
I agree with you. It was unacceptable. | 0:07:54 | 0:07:57 | |
But he has shown he's able to say, "I'm sorry. I went too far." | 0:07:57 | 0:08:00 | |
As far as our relationship with him is concerned, | 0:08:00 | 0:08:04 | |
-just remember this... -Our or your? | 0:08:04 | 0:08:06 | |
-Our relationship. -As a country? -As a country. -Right, yeah. | 0:08:06 | 0:08:09 | |
This is a strong Anglophile president of the USA. | 0:08:09 | 0:08:13 | |
He likes this country, he admires this country, | 0:08:13 | 0:08:16 | |
he wants us to get back to having... | 0:08:16 | 0:08:18 | |
well, not just a special relationship, an even better one, | 0:08:18 | 0:08:21 | |
starting with a free trade deal, | 0:08:21 | 0:08:23 | |
and I think this government, having been so rude about him... | 0:08:23 | 0:08:26 | |
Virtually every Cabinet member was rude about him during the campaign. | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
I think they need to eat some humble pie, | 0:08:29 | 0:08:31 | |
go and see him as quickly as they can, | 0:08:31 | 0:08:33 | |
and let's get cracking with a new relationship. | 0:08:33 | 0:08:35 | |
He also likes Russia quite a lot. | 0:08:35 | 0:08:37 | |
-Well, it's interesting... -And Putin's politics. | 0:08:37 | 0:08:39 | |
He doesn't want to go to war with Russia. | 0:08:39 | 0:08:41 | |
And it's very interesting that we have Hillary, | 0:08:41 | 0:08:44 | |
we have the European Union, | 0:08:44 | 0:08:46 | |
we have the political class in this country, | 0:08:46 | 0:08:48 | |
all want Putin to be the enemy. | 0:08:48 | 0:08:51 | |
Very keen to go on provoking Putin. | 0:08:51 | 0:08:53 | |
I wouldn't want to live in Putin's Russia any more than you would, | 0:08:53 | 0:08:56 | |
but I do think Trump's idea, | 0:08:56 | 0:08:58 | |
he'll get on a plane - well, his plane, of course - | 0:08:58 | 0:09:00 | |
and he will go to Moscow and sit down and talk with people. | 0:09:00 | 0:09:04 | |
That is a much better way to deal with international affairs | 0:09:04 | 0:09:08 | |
than to provoke Russia | 0:09:08 | 0:09:10 | |
by trying to get the Ukraine to join the EU... | 0:09:10 | 0:09:13 | |
WOMAN SHOUTS OUT OK, all right, all right. | 0:09:13 | 0:09:15 | |
I think we've made some very bad mistakes... | 0:09:15 | 0:09:17 | |
Nigel, thank you very much. Sarah Wollaston, I want to bring you in. | 0:09:17 | 0:09:21 | |
Nigel just said almost every politician in this country | 0:09:21 | 0:09:24 | |
made the great mistake of insulting him. | 0:09:24 | 0:09:25 | |
Would you agree with that? | 0:09:25 | 0:09:27 | |
I was one of the people that felt that if you are going to exclude | 0:09:27 | 0:09:30 | |
all Muslims from this country from the States, | 0:09:30 | 0:09:32 | |
why should he be allowed a free pass here? | 0:09:32 | 0:09:34 | |
And I'm glad he apologised for that. | 0:09:34 | 0:09:35 | |
Did he apologise for stereotyping | 0:09:35 | 0:09:37 | |
all Mexicans as rapists, for example? | 0:09:37 | 0:09:40 | |
I think some of his divisive, nasty politics, | 0:09:40 | 0:09:43 | |
it's really depressing. | 0:09:43 | 0:09:45 | |
And isn't it terrible that we're starting from such a low baseline | 0:09:45 | 0:09:47 | |
that what we're hoping for | 0:09:47 | 0:09:49 | |
is that he doesn't carry out any of his promises? | 0:09:49 | 0:09:52 | |
OK, and you, sir. | 0:09:52 | 0:09:54 | |
Yes. | 0:09:54 | 0:09:56 | |
Just bringing it back to the locker room talk | 0:09:56 | 0:09:58 | |
and everything like that. | 0:09:58 | 0:09:59 | |
Yes, Trump has said one thing and he's done another. | 0:09:59 | 0:10:02 | |
Politicians have been doing this for hundreds of years. | 0:10:02 | 0:10:04 | |
They always will. The difference with Trump | 0:10:04 | 0:10:06 | |
is that he's honest about it and, like Nigel just said, | 0:10:06 | 0:10:08 | |
he apologises when he gets it wrong. | 0:10:08 | 0:10:10 | |
OK. And you, sir, and then we're going to go on, | 0:10:10 | 0:10:12 | |
because we can't... | 0:10:12 | 0:10:14 | |
Yes. Yes. You, sir? | 0:10:14 | 0:10:16 | |
Don't the extreme results and characters that we've seen this year | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
reflect the lack of ability of mainstream politics | 0:10:20 | 0:10:23 | |
to provide a moderate response to genuine concerns of many people? | 0:10:23 | 0:10:26 | |
Will Self, do you agree with that? | 0:10:26 | 0:10:28 | |
I think things are changing very, very fundamentally | 0:10:28 | 0:10:31 | |
and, yes, I think that in a way, | 0:10:31 | 0:10:33 | |
our politics hasn't been responsive enough | 0:10:33 | 0:10:35 | |
to the popular will in the past. | 0:10:35 | 0:10:37 | |
There's no question about that. | 0:10:37 | 0:10:38 | |
But whether the solution to that is to start electing people | 0:10:38 | 0:10:42 | |
who have the views that Trump has, | 0:10:42 | 0:10:44 | |
I'm not quite so sure that that's the case. | 0:10:44 | 0:10:46 | |
And you, in the front. | 0:10:46 | 0:10:47 | |
I personally feel that everyone in the world, now, | 0:10:47 | 0:10:50 | |
is getting so disillusioned by what's going on. | 0:10:50 | 0:10:52 | |
Everyone needs some sort of change, | 0:10:52 | 0:10:54 | |
and I think people like Trump and yourself and all that | 0:10:54 | 0:10:57 | |
have stirred it up. | 0:10:57 | 0:10:59 | |
That's the wrong word to use. | 0:10:59 | 0:11:00 | |
Because everyone is so confused about what's going on in the world, | 0:11:00 | 0:11:04 | |
with Brexit and what's happening in China and Japan | 0:11:04 | 0:11:08 | |
and all those sort of places, | 0:11:08 | 0:11:09 | |
and I just think we need to have someone | 0:11:09 | 0:11:11 | |
that's there to, sort of, kind of, be a central point, | 0:11:11 | 0:11:16 | |
to try and...even out. | 0:11:16 | 0:11:18 | |
OK. Yes, Sarah? | 0:11:18 | 0:11:20 | |
There are other voices. | 0:11:20 | 0:11:21 | |
This year, we heard someone say | 0:11:21 | 0:11:23 | |
that we have far more in common with each other | 0:11:23 | 0:11:25 | |
than that which divides us, and that person was Jo Cox, | 0:11:25 | 0:11:28 | |
and frankly, she should have been Person Of The Year. | 0:11:28 | 0:11:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:11:31 | 0:11:33 | |
OK, well... | 0:11:35 | 0:11:37 | |
Ten minutes on Trump is enough, I think, for tonight. | 0:11:37 | 0:11:42 | |
Just a word - we're going to be back after Christmas with Question Time | 0:11:42 | 0:11:46 | |
in Solihull and Peterborough, or So-li-hull, if you prefer. | 0:11:46 | 0:11:48 | |
If you'd like to join the audience, the address is there. | 0:11:48 | 0:11:50 | |
I'll give it again at the end, make a note if you want it. | 0:11:50 | 0:11:53 | |
Let's go on to the other topic of the year. Oscar Huxley? | 0:11:53 | 0:11:56 | |
Do you think a deal for Brexit | 0:11:56 | 0:11:58 | |
could realistically be achieved in two years? | 0:11:58 | 0:12:01 | |
Can the deal be achieved in two years, | 0:12:01 | 0:12:03 | |
which is what the leaders of the negotiations in Europe | 0:12:03 | 0:12:06 | |
are saying it has to be? | 0:12:06 | 0:12:08 | |
Is it too complicated? | 0:12:08 | 0:12:09 | |
Richard Burgon. | 0:12:09 | 0:12:11 | |
Well, in order to get a deal in the first place, | 0:12:11 | 0:12:14 | |
what we need is a plan, | 0:12:14 | 0:12:16 | |
and that's why I was so pleased that yesterday, in Parliament, | 0:12:16 | 0:12:20 | |
Labour MPs forced the agenda so that, at long last, | 0:12:20 | 0:12:24 | |
Theresa May has agreed to put a plan before the British people, | 0:12:24 | 0:12:30 | |
and that's really, really important. | 0:12:30 | 0:12:32 | |
It's taken a long time, | 0:12:32 | 0:12:34 | |
but they're going to publish a plan before 31 March. | 0:12:34 | 0:12:38 | |
Of course, it's complicated. | 0:12:38 | 0:12:39 | |
A binary choice was given in the EU referendum. | 0:12:39 | 0:12:43 | |
48% of people, of course, voted to remain. | 0:12:43 | 0:12:48 | |
52% voted to leave. But what we need now is a plan. | 0:12:48 | 0:12:51 | |
Britain should leave the European Union, | 0:12:51 | 0:12:53 | |
because Britain voted to leave the European Union. | 0:12:53 | 0:12:56 | |
Labour will vote to trigger Article 50. | 0:12:56 | 0:13:00 | |
We will hold the government to account, not to ransom. | 0:13:00 | 0:13:03 | |
But what we need to do is stop talking, | 0:13:03 | 0:13:06 | |
like the Liberal Democrats are, about the 48%, | 0:13:06 | 0:13:09 | |
stop talking, like Ukip are, about the 52%, | 0:13:09 | 0:13:12 | |
and let's bring people together. | 0:13:12 | 0:13:14 | |
Let's talk about the 100% and move forward as a country | 0:13:14 | 0:13:18 | |
for a post-Brexit Britain | 0:13:18 | 0:13:19 | |
that works in the interests of everyone in the country. | 0:13:19 | 0:13:22 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:13:22 | 0:13:25 | |
That's fine words, but can you get that by October 2018, | 0:13:29 | 0:13:33 | |
in your view, in a way that you want, | 0:13:33 | 0:13:35 | |
when the House of Commons may well be divided over what is negotiated? | 0:13:35 | 0:13:38 | |
Well, it is possible, but nothing in politics, | 0:13:38 | 0:13:41 | |
and nothing in economics, is certain. | 0:13:41 | 0:13:44 | |
Of course it's going to be complex, but what we need is a situation | 0:13:44 | 0:13:48 | |
where a blank cheque isn't given to Theresa May, | 0:13:48 | 0:13:52 | |
an unelected Prime Minister, to do what she wishes. | 0:13:52 | 0:13:55 | |
People have voted by majority to leave the European Union, | 0:13:55 | 0:13:58 | |
therefore, we need to leave the European Union. | 0:13:58 | 0:14:00 | |
But I think voices from all sides of the House of Commons, | 0:14:00 | 0:14:03 | |
and voices from right across the country, | 0:14:03 | 0:14:05 | |
both from the 48% and the 52%, need to be heard | 0:14:05 | 0:14:09 | |
if we're going to get any kind of deal | 0:14:09 | 0:14:10 | |
that keeps this country together. | 0:14:10 | 0:14:12 | |
Sarah Wollaston, what's your view of the politics of this | 0:14:12 | 0:14:14 | |
and whether it'll all be achieved within the two years? | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
It's immensely complex. I think it will take two years. | 0:14:17 | 0:14:19 | |
But there are things that we need to get on with straightaway. | 0:14:19 | 0:14:22 | |
We need to get on with sorting out status of the EU nationals | 0:14:22 | 0:14:25 | |
living in the UK already and British nationals living in Europe, | 0:14:25 | 0:14:29 | |
and I hope that that will be the first priority. | 0:14:29 | 0:14:31 | |
But also, we've got to keep the tone friendly. | 0:14:31 | 0:14:34 | |
I think that having a belligerent tone | 0:14:34 | 0:14:36 | |
against our European partners isn't helpful | 0:14:36 | 0:14:39 | |
and we need to keep the tone right and positive, | 0:14:39 | 0:14:42 | |
because it's in all of our interests | 0:14:42 | 0:14:44 | |
for this to be a friendly separation. | 0:14:44 | 0:14:45 | |
We want to be good neighbours. | 0:14:45 | 0:14:47 | |
But do you think that Conservative and Labour will come together | 0:14:47 | 0:14:50 | |
to agree what's on offer? | 0:14:50 | 0:14:51 | |
-Or is there...? -Well, I'm an optimist. | 0:14:51 | 0:14:53 | |
Two years from now, are we going to be divided on it? | 0:14:53 | 0:14:56 | |
I'm an optimist, but people will see, | 0:14:56 | 0:14:57 | |
on both sides of the Channel and across political parties, | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
that this is too serious for it to become a divisive issue, | 0:15:00 | 0:15:03 | |
and we must work together in the national interest. | 0:15:03 | 0:15:05 | |
All right. Well, Nigel Farage, | 0:15:05 | 0:15:07 | |
do things that are too serious not become divisive? | 0:15:07 | 0:15:09 | |
I mean, six months have nearly gone by since the referendum. | 0:15:09 | 0:15:12 | |
We've wasted all this time already. | 0:15:12 | 0:15:14 | |
Had the Prime Minister shown real leadership, | 0:15:14 | 0:15:17 | |
triggered Article 50, we wouldn't be going through court cases. | 0:15:17 | 0:15:20 | |
We'd actually be getting on with the process | 0:15:20 | 0:15:22 | |
and my concern is that we trigger Article 50 in March - | 0:15:22 | 0:15:25 | |
that's what the House of Commons agreed to do - | 0:15:25 | 0:15:28 | |
and if we spend two years negotiating this, | 0:15:28 | 0:15:31 | |
that'll be another net £20 billion we've paid away. | 0:15:31 | 0:15:34 | |
It'll be another, at current rates, | 0:15:34 | 0:15:36 | |
at least another 500,000 people who come to settle in this country, net. | 0:15:36 | 0:15:41 | |
But, more crucially, it'll be lost opportunities. | 0:15:41 | 0:15:44 | |
I talked about America earlier. | 0:15:44 | 0:15:45 | |
There are 24 countries, since we left the EU, | 0:15:45 | 0:15:48 | |
that have come to us and said, | 0:15:48 | 0:15:50 | |
"We want to have a trade deal with the United Kingdom." | 0:15:50 | 0:15:52 | |
It's very difficult for us to do any of that | 0:15:52 | 0:15:54 | |
whilst we are going through this process. | 0:15:54 | 0:15:56 | |
So, I would say this - if we wanted to, | 0:15:56 | 0:15:58 | |
we could leave in two weeks. | 0:15:58 | 0:16:00 | |
If we wanted to. | 0:16:00 | 0:16:01 | |
We could just say, "That's it, we're leaving, | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
"we'll trade with you on WTO rules." | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
The reason it's going to take a long time | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
is because my impression is that this government | 0:16:09 | 0:16:12 | |
and most people in Parliament want us to stay in the single market, | 0:16:12 | 0:16:18 | |
and I think we're going to finish up in the spring of '19, effectively, | 0:16:18 | 0:16:22 | |
with a Norwegian-type deal, | 0:16:22 | 0:16:24 | |
which is not what the people of this country voted for. | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
But that, I think, is where it's going to go. | 0:16:27 | 0:16:30 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:16:30 | 0:16:32 | |
So, Nigel Farage, when you said, as you did, | 0:16:34 | 0:16:36 | |
that a 52/48 result would be unfinished business... | 0:16:36 | 0:16:39 | |
I didn't, for me, no. | 0:16:39 | 0:16:40 | |
I said, within the Conservative party, | 0:16:40 | 0:16:42 | |
it would be unfinished business. What was clear... | 0:16:42 | 0:16:45 | |
Sorry, no. My question is... | 0:16:45 | 0:16:47 | |
Maybe you did or didn't say that, but the question is whether, | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
if that's so, what you're saying now, | 0:16:50 | 0:16:52 | |
which is that it's going to be a Norwegian-style deal, | 0:16:52 | 0:16:54 | |
which is not what we wanted, what's going to happen then? | 0:16:54 | 0:16:56 | |
Well, I think that if we don't get our fishing waters back, | 0:16:56 | 0:17:00 | |
we don't get our passports back, | 0:17:00 | 0:17:01 | |
we don't get away from the European Court Of Justice, | 0:17:01 | 0:17:04 | |
having the ability to rule on our businesses, our industries, | 0:17:04 | 0:17:08 | |
and if we don't get the ability to make our own trade deals, | 0:17:08 | 0:17:11 | |
then I think the 2020 general election | 0:17:11 | 0:17:13 | |
could well be a very big replay of this referendum, because I think... | 0:17:13 | 0:17:18 | |
The one thing I do know - and, yes, of course, | 0:17:18 | 0:17:21 | |
there were all sorts of things said on both sides of the argument, | 0:17:21 | 0:17:24 | |
the temperature got raised to a level | 0:17:24 | 0:17:26 | |
we've never seen in this country - | 0:17:26 | 0:17:28 | |
what I do know is that the 17.5 million people | 0:17:28 | 0:17:31 | |
that voted for it, despite being told we'd fall off a cliff | 0:17:31 | 0:17:34 | |
and terrible things would happen to us, | 0:17:34 | 0:17:36 | |
they voted for it because they meant it | 0:17:36 | 0:17:38 | |
and I think they are not going to change their mind on this. | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
So I hope that the local MP here gives us some real leadership, | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
because frankly, in the first few months, | 0:17:47 | 0:17:49 | |
we've had precious little, and if she tells us, clearly, | 0:17:49 | 0:17:52 | |
that we're not just leaving the European Union, | 0:17:52 | 0:17:54 | |
we're leaving the single market, | 0:17:54 | 0:17:56 | |
because that's what people have voted for, | 0:17:56 | 0:17:58 | |
I would then be very reassured and the next general election | 0:17:58 | 0:18:01 | |
would be more or less business as usual. | 0:18:01 | 0:18:04 | |
But that's not where I think it's going. | 0:18:04 | 0:18:06 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:18:06 | 0:18:08 | |
I said we were in Maidenhead, which is, of course, | 0:18:09 | 0:18:12 | |
Theresa May's constituency. Will Self? | 0:18:12 | 0:18:14 | |
Yeah, I think Nigel's analysis is probably right, actually. | 0:18:14 | 0:18:17 | |
The Cabinet is clearly divided, there isn't an agreement | 0:18:17 | 0:18:22 | |
on whether to go for a hard or soft Brexit. | 0:18:22 | 0:18:25 | |
I think what people voted for was a variety of things, | 0:18:25 | 0:18:28 | |
who voted for Brexit. | 0:18:28 | 0:18:30 | |
They voted because they felt their livelihoods under threat, | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
they felt, in some sense, | 0:18:34 | 0:18:35 | |
that they were losing a kind of control in their communities. | 0:18:35 | 0:18:39 | |
If they were feeling very, very immiserated, | 0:18:39 | 0:18:42 | |
they perhaps were being thrust into bigotry | 0:18:42 | 0:18:45 | |
and looking around at society | 0:18:45 | 0:18:47 | |
and reacting against our immigrant communities, | 0:18:47 | 0:18:51 | |
and all of that was pretty unsavoury. | 0:18:51 | 0:18:54 | |
But I don't think what they actually voted for | 0:18:54 | 0:18:57 | |
was to suffer the kind of catastrophic...not recession, | 0:18:57 | 0:19:02 | |
but, I would wager, depression that will occur | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
if we go straight to WTO rules. | 0:19:05 | 0:19:08 | |
You know, why on earth wouldn't the Europeans, for example, Nigel, | 0:19:08 | 0:19:13 | |
bring back the denomination of Eurobonds from the City | 0:19:13 | 0:19:16 | |
to Frankfurt or wherever they choose to do it? | 0:19:16 | 0:19:19 | |
I have to say, you know, I think a lot of the Brexiteers | 0:19:19 | 0:19:22 | |
are still living in a bit of a weird kind of, you know... | 0:19:22 | 0:19:25 | |
You hear them saying, "Bring back this, bring back that, | 0:19:25 | 0:19:28 | |
"bring back the birch, bring back bicycles, | 0:19:28 | 0:19:31 | |
"bring back spinsters, | 0:19:31 | 0:19:32 | |
"bring back Two Way Family Forces Favourites." | 0:19:32 | 0:19:36 | |
What else are you going to bring back? | 0:19:36 | 0:19:38 | |
Bring back democracy. Bring back democracy. | 0:19:38 | 0:19:41 | |
Bring back self-government. That's what we voted for. | 0:19:41 | 0:19:43 | |
That's what we want. | 0:19:43 | 0:19:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:19:46 | 0:19:47 | |
That's what you say people voted for. | 0:19:49 | 0:19:51 | |
But actually, Nigel, I think a rerun of... | 0:19:51 | 0:19:53 | |
A rerun of the issues | 0:19:53 | 0:19:55 | |
within the context of the political system we're used to | 0:19:55 | 0:19:59 | |
is far more democratic than a winner-takes-all referendum. | 0:19:59 | 0:20:03 | |
And all of this kind of talk that the politicians are doing, | 0:20:03 | 0:20:06 | |
now, because they're desperately worried about their vote, | 0:20:06 | 0:20:10 | |
is to say, "Oh, no, we'll respect the will of the people." | 0:20:10 | 0:20:14 | |
The will of those incredibly politically committed people, Nigel, | 0:20:14 | 0:20:18 | |
who you now have summoned into a great civil society. | 0:20:18 | 0:20:22 | |
We're all going to be working away, aren't we? | 0:20:22 | 0:20:24 | |
Well, he says we are going to end up with a solution like Norway, | 0:20:24 | 0:20:27 | |
and that isn't what people want. | 0:20:27 | 0:20:28 | |
Yeah, well, I like Norway. | 0:20:28 | 0:20:30 | |
LAUGHTER OK. Let's just silence, if we can, | 0:20:30 | 0:20:33 | |
our panel just for a moment - I'll come to you, Louise - | 0:20:33 | 0:20:35 | |
and hear what do you think here in Maidenhead. | 0:20:35 | 0:20:38 | |
The woman there - how you voted, I don't know. | 0:20:38 | 0:20:41 | |
-But what did you want to see happen? -I voted to remain. -Yes. | 0:20:41 | 0:20:44 | |
But I feel people were misled by politicians, | 0:20:44 | 0:20:49 | |
saying the 350 million we are paying to Europe will go to the NHS. | 0:20:49 | 0:20:54 | |
The same politicians changed their mind next day, | 0:20:54 | 0:20:58 | |
saying, "Oh, no, we haven't got any money now." | 0:20:58 | 0:21:01 | |
-What do you want to see happen now? -Sorry? | 0:21:01 | 0:21:05 | |
What do you want to see happen now? | 0:21:05 | 0:21:06 | |
Well, we have to trade with Europe. | 0:21:06 | 0:21:08 | |
-We'll still be paying money to Europe, to trade with them. -Why? | 0:21:10 | 0:21:14 | |
If we want to do business with them. | 0:21:14 | 0:21:16 | |
All right, let's go to some other people. | 0:21:16 | 0:21:18 | |
The woman there, in blue, or purple, is it? There. | 0:21:18 | 0:21:22 | |
Um...I think the Westminster cartel are a bit slow to realise | 0:21:22 | 0:21:28 | |
that politics are being done differently, now, | 0:21:28 | 0:21:32 | |
and I think the basic problem that we've got at the moment | 0:21:32 | 0:21:35 | |
is that we've got a Parliament that doesn't really represent the people. | 0:21:35 | 0:21:39 | |
And what do you mean by "done differently"? | 0:21:39 | 0:21:41 | |
Um...I think it's the grassroots that put Trump where he is, | 0:21:41 | 0:21:46 | |
the grassroots that put Jeremy Corbyn where he is, | 0:21:46 | 0:21:50 | |
the grassroots that caused Brexit to happen, | 0:21:50 | 0:21:53 | |
and I think they're still living in a world | 0:21:53 | 0:21:57 | |
where they haven't realised | 0:21:57 | 0:21:59 | |
that, with the advent of the internet | 0:21:59 | 0:22:02 | |
and the ability of people to be able | 0:22:02 | 0:22:04 | |
to communicate with each other a lot more, | 0:22:04 | 0:22:07 | |
that politics is being done differently. | 0:22:07 | 0:22:10 | |
All right. Louise Mensch, I'll come to you. Louise Mensch. | 0:22:10 | 0:22:13 | |
I think there's a lot to what that lady just said, actually. | 0:22:13 | 0:22:16 | |
One of the things that annoys me, watching from afar, | 0:22:16 | 0:22:19 | |
is the sort of Mystic Meg that goes on - | 0:22:19 | 0:22:21 | |
"Well, we voted for this and we voted for that, | 0:22:21 | 0:22:23 | |
"people really think this and they really think that." | 0:22:23 | 0:22:25 | |
I think the only thing you can take from it | 0:22:25 | 0:22:27 | |
is the question that was on the ballot paper. | 0:22:27 | 0:22:29 | |
And what went on the ballot paper was, | 0:22:29 | 0:22:31 | |
"Should we leave the European Union?" | 0:22:31 | 0:22:34 | |
And the answer was yes. Beyond that, there was no detail. | 0:22:34 | 0:22:37 | |
It wasn't on the ballot paper. | 0:22:37 | 0:22:38 | |
If people had required all the detail in advance, | 0:22:38 | 0:22:40 | |
presumably, they would have voted no. | 0:22:40 | 0:22:42 | |
So somebody has to do those negotiations, | 0:22:42 | 0:22:45 | |
and I don't agree with Nigel. | 0:22:45 | 0:22:46 | |
I think that here, in Maidenhead, Theresa will go into Europe | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
and she will swing her handbag pretty hard. | 0:22:50 | 0:22:52 | |
There was a study out recently | 0:22:52 | 0:22:54 | |
that said optimistic women live longer, | 0:22:54 | 0:22:56 | |
so that's good for me, because I'm very optimistic! | 0:22:56 | 0:22:59 | |
And I actually believe that we hold all the cards, | 0:22:59 | 0:23:02 | |
and I'm sick and tired | 0:23:02 | 0:23:03 | |
of being...Britain being pushed around when there is no need. | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
There is a deficit, a trade deficit, from the EU to us. | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
Germany, the breadbasket of the EU, sells most of its cars in Britain. | 0:23:10 | 0:23:14 | |
They desperately need to trade with us. | 0:23:14 | 0:23:17 | |
So all I think we need is a bit of firmness, | 0:23:17 | 0:23:19 | |
a bit of friendliness, a bit of politeness - | 0:23:19 | 0:23:22 | |
we're leading the EU, we're not leaving Europe - | 0:23:22 | 0:23:24 | |
and we should be able to get a good deal | 0:23:24 | 0:23:26 | |
and get a good deal quickly. | 0:23:26 | 0:23:27 | |
And as for Theresa delaying and wasting time, | 0:23:27 | 0:23:30 | |
I don't think that's what's happening at all. | 0:23:30 | 0:23:32 | |
What she's doing is she's stacking her hand, | 0:23:32 | 0:23:34 | |
like a good negotiator. | 0:23:34 | 0:23:35 | |
She went to India and she did some trade deals in advance. | 0:23:35 | 0:23:38 | |
It's true that we can't sign them until we leave the EU, | 0:23:38 | 0:23:41 | |
but we can line them up. | 0:23:41 | 0:23:42 | |
And that is what she's doing, | 0:23:42 | 0:23:44 | |
and I think she's playing it very well, very cleverly. | 0:23:44 | 0:23:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:23:46 | 0:23:49 | |
She went to India and did a trade deal, | 0:23:51 | 0:23:54 | |
but she had to agree for the free movement of workforce, | 0:23:54 | 0:23:59 | |
around the world. | 0:23:59 | 0:24:00 | |
That is a lot of Mickey Mouse crap. | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
Sorry! It really is, | 0:24:03 | 0:24:06 | |
because nobody is going to give you something totally... | 0:24:06 | 0:24:11 | |
"Come in", like that. | 0:24:11 | 0:24:12 | |
They're going to want to trade and they want to trade with their people | 0:24:12 | 0:24:16 | |
and they want to trade with their technology. | 0:24:16 | 0:24:18 | |
It's not as straightforward as anyone makes out. | 0:24:18 | 0:24:21 | |
If you go with the referendum, in the North, | 0:24:21 | 0:24:24 | |
I can take you to towns where the real reason was immigration. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:29 | |
Without a shadow of a doubt. | 0:24:29 | 0:24:32 | |
And everybody believed that we were going to not have | 0:24:32 | 0:24:35 | |
the free movement of people, | 0:24:35 | 0:24:37 | |
we weren't going to have immigration. | 0:24:37 | 0:24:39 | |
But if we don't have immigration in the South, | 0:24:39 | 0:24:42 | |
who's going to wipe my backside when I go into a nursing home? | 0:24:42 | 0:24:46 | |
Because I can tell you, categorically, | 0:24:46 | 0:24:49 | |
there is not one, if you like, English national | 0:24:49 | 0:24:52 | |
working in most of our nursing homes. | 0:24:52 | 0:24:55 | |
They're Filipinos, they're from Asia... | 0:24:55 | 0:24:58 | |
-I very much doubt that. -That's not quite correct. | 0:24:58 | 0:25:01 | |
Sorry - so, you are Theresa May. What would you do? | 0:25:01 | 0:25:04 | |
If I was Theresa May, | 0:25:04 | 0:25:06 | |
I'd go back to the country, because I tell you... | 0:25:06 | 0:25:08 | |
Well, that is the whole point. You don't accept the result. | 0:25:08 | 0:25:12 | |
You do not accept the result of the referendum and, | 0:25:12 | 0:25:15 | |
if I may say so, there is a complete difference | 0:25:15 | 0:25:17 | |
between open, free movement | 0:25:17 | 0:25:19 | |
and having a fair, free immigration policy. | 0:25:19 | 0:25:22 | |
Brexit, I was for Brexit. It's not anti-immigration. | 0:25:22 | 0:25:25 | |
It's saying that somebody from Belgium shouldn't have | 0:25:25 | 0:25:27 | |
special privileges over somebody from Bangladesh. | 0:25:27 | 0:25:30 | |
She wants to trade, that's a good thing. | 0:25:30 | 0:25:31 | |
Hold on. Let's pick up the point you made. | 0:25:31 | 0:25:33 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:25:33 | 0:25:35 | |
Richard Burgon, do you think she should have an election | 0:25:35 | 0:25:39 | |
to clear the air? | 0:25:39 | 0:25:40 | |
-You do. What do you think? -Explain all the facts to the country | 0:25:40 | 0:25:44 | |
and actually explain it. | 0:25:44 | 0:25:45 | |
Because we don't know. I could have changed my mind. | 0:25:45 | 0:25:49 | |
I could have really changed my mind if I thought it was right, | 0:25:49 | 0:25:52 | |
but I voted Remain, because I didn't really know what I was going into. | 0:25:52 | 0:25:56 | |
OK. Richard Burgon. | 0:25:56 | 0:25:57 | |
All this talk of will Theresa May hold an election... | 0:25:57 | 0:26:00 | |
-He wants one. -All this talk of whether Theresa May | 0:26:00 | 0:26:03 | |
will or will not hold an election before 2020 - | 0:26:03 | 0:26:06 | |
if she can't govern, if she's that weak, | 0:26:06 | 0:26:09 | |
then she'll have to hold an election, | 0:26:09 | 0:26:11 | |
so we'll see what happens. | 0:26:11 | 0:26:12 | |
But I do want to pick up the point that the lady over there made | 0:26:12 | 0:26:16 | |
about politics been done differently, | 0:26:16 | 0:26:17 | |
grassroots politics. | 0:26:17 | 0:26:19 | |
She made a really important point. | 0:26:19 | 0:26:21 | |
When you talked about | 0:26:21 | 0:26:22 | |
the, surprising to many, election of Trump, | 0:26:22 | 0:26:25 | |
when you talked about the, | 0:26:25 | 0:26:26 | |
surprising to the Conservative government, Brexit vote, | 0:26:26 | 0:26:29 | |
and the, surprising to political figures from past and present, | 0:26:29 | 0:26:33 | |
election of Jeremy Corbyn twice as Labour Party leader. | 0:26:33 | 0:26:37 | |
What we've got now is a questioning of the old way of doing things. | 0:26:37 | 0:26:41 | |
That's what happened in the United States. | 0:26:41 | 0:26:44 | |
In essence, that's what happened with the Brexit vote. | 0:26:44 | 0:26:47 | |
People don't want the status quo to continue, | 0:26:47 | 0:26:50 | |
but the dangerous thing at this point | 0:26:50 | 0:26:53 | |
is the fake antiestablishment politics. | 0:26:53 | 0:26:56 | |
I don't believe that billionaire Donald Trump is antiestablishment. | 0:26:56 | 0:27:00 | |
I don't think he will deliver for the rust belt communities | 0:27:00 | 0:27:03 | |
that voted for him in the United States, | 0:27:03 | 0:27:04 | |
and I don't believe that Ukip now, with a lesser leader, | 0:27:04 | 0:27:08 | |
will deliver on an antiestablishment basis, either. | 0:27:08 | 0:27:13 | |
The NHS, by the way, is Britain's proudest peacetime achievement. | 0:27:13 | 0:27:17 | |
The new leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall, | 0:27:17 | 0:27:19 | |
wants to privatise it. | 0:27:19 | 0:27:20 | |
There's nothing antiestablishment about that. These... | 0:27:20 | 0:27:24 | |
Is Jeremy Corbyn antiestablishment? | 0:27:24 | 0:27:26 | |
He is. Labour is the antiestablishment party. | 0:27:26 | 0:27:29 | |
That's why the media don't like Jeremy Corbyn. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:31 | |
-LAUGHTER -Because he is antiestablishment. | 0:27:31 | 0:27:34 | |
That's why the Westminster bubble doesn't like him - | 0:27:34 | 0:27:36 | |
because he is antiestablishment. | 0:27:36 | 0:27:37 | |
OK. We've got a lot we want to talk about. | 0:27:37 | 0:27:40 | |
Does anybody else want to make any points about the way | 0:27:40 | 0:27:42 | |
that Brexit, post the vote, is being handled from the audience? | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
Yes, you, and then we'll go on, | 0:27:45 | 0:27:46 | |
because we've got lots of other things | 0:27:46 | 0:27:48 | |
that people want to talk about, | 0:27:48 | 0:27:50 | |
and we've covered it regularly and at some length. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:52 | |
-Yes, madam. -I voted Leave, OK? | 0:27:52 | 0:27:55 | |
It doesn't matter what politician was out there, | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
I did not want to be part of the EU any longer. | 0:27:59 | 0:28:03 | |
I don't like dictatorship. I think we should make our own decisions | 0:28:03 | 0:28:07 | |
and we should trade with whoever we like | 0:28:07 | 0:28:10 | |
and allow them to trade with us if we accept them. | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:28:13 | 0:28:16 | |
Roy Horne, let's have your question. Roy Horne. | 0:28:18 | 0:28:21 | |
Is it time to raise basic rate income tax | 0:28:21 | 0:28:26 | |
to improve the NHS and our public services? | 0:28:26 | 0:28:29 | |
Sarah Wollaston. | 0:28:29 | 0:28:30 | |
I certainly need think we need to raise more money for our NHS | 0:28:30 | 0:28:33 | |
and social care, particularly for social care, | 0:28:33 | 0:28:35 | |
and I very much hope that next week, | 0:28:35 | 0:28:37 | |
when we have the local government settlement, | 0:28:37 | 0:28:39 | |
that we do see a fair settlement for social care, | 0:28:39 | 0:28:42 | |
because the gentleman in the front row here | 0:28:42 | 0:28:43 | |
is going to need some care, hopefully, at some point... | 0:28:43 | 0:28:47 | |
Not hopefully! | 0:28:47 | 0:28:48 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:28:48 | 0:28:49 | |
I said that wrong. | 0:28:49 | 0:28:51 | |
LAUGHTER | 0:28:51 | 0:28:53 | |
But if the gentleman in the front row does need care, | 0:28:53 | 0:28:55 | |
I hope it will be available to him, and unfortunately, | 0:28:55 | 0:28:58 | |
in many parts of the country now, | 0:28:58 | 0:28:59 | |
we're seeing that social care is in a state of collapse. | 0:28:59 | 0:29:01 | |
How do you do it without increasing taxation? | 0:29:01 | 0:29:04 | |
Well, I think that there have been a number of...commissions | 0:29:04 | 0:29:07 | |
that have looked at this, | 0:29:07 | 0:29:08 | |
and I think there are some very interesting proposals | 0:29:08 | 0:29:10 | |
in something called the Barker Commission. | 0:29:10 | 0:29:12 | |
She looked, for example, at whether or not | 0:29:12 | 0:29:15 | |
we could put an extra penny on National Insurance. | 0:29:15 | 0:29:18 | |
-That is tax, isn't it? -But the time has come... | 0:29:18 | 0:29:20 | |
Hang on, that's being very, very political. | 0:29:20 | 0:29:23 | |
Actually, no, can I explain in one way that I think it isn't? | 0:29:23 | 0:29:26 | |
That is that I think we need to bring in | 0:29:26 | 0:29:28 | |
some intergenerational fairness, here, | 0:29:28 | 0:29:30 | |
and I think one of the proposals was that wealthier people over 40 | 0:29:30 | 0:29:33 | |
could contribute more, | 0:29:33 | 0:29:35 | |
because we're the generation that didn't have to pay university fees, | 0:29:35 | 0:29:39 | |
that rode the property boom, and I think that now, | 0:29:39 | 0:29:43 | |
what we're seeing is a shift away from younger people to older people. | 0:29:43 | 0:29:47 | |
So over 40s would pay more in National Insurance. | 0:29:47 | 0:29:50 | |
-That was one of them. -What do you want to see happen? | 0:29:50 | 0:29:53 | |
You're an expert on this. | 0:29:53 | 0:29:54 | |
I would like to see... Well... I would like to see that we | 0:29:54 | 0:29:58 | |
actually have a national debate about how we do this. | 0:29:58 | 0:30:00 | |
I would like to see our NHS and social care remain free at | 0:30:00 | 0:30:04 | |
the point of use, based on need and not ability to pay. | 0:30:04 | 0:30:07 | |
But because - and happily - we are living so much longer, | 0:30:07 | 0:30:11 | |
we have a 31% increase in the number of people who are | 0:30:11 | 0:30:14 | |
living to 85 and over now, but we need to plan for that. | 0:30:14 | 0:30:17 | |
I think it's great news that people are living longer. | 0:30:17 | 0:30:19 | |
I wish people would stop talking about it in gloomy terms, | 0:30:19 | 0:30:22 | |
but we need to plan for it. It's a success. | 0:30:22 | 0:30:25 | |
But it means that the scale of the increase on demand is enormous and | 0:30:25 | 0:30:29 | |
that means we've got to debate how we're going to raise that money. | 0:30:29 | 0:30:32 | |
And I think it is time now to have a national debate about doing | 0:30:32 | 0:30:35 | |
that on a fair basis and I think an increase in national insurance | 0:30:35 | 0:30:39 | |
and various other mechanisms that have been proposed | 0:30:39 | 0:30:42 | |
by the Barker Commission, and we need to have cross-party consensus. | 0:30:42 | 0:30:45 | |
But do you want us to get up to the level of spending that other | 0:30:45 | 0:30:48 | |
European countries have? We're below France, below Germany, | 0:30:48 | 0:30:51 | |
fewer hospital beds than France, fewer hospital beds than Germany, | 0:30:51 | 0:30:54 | |
and yet we say that the NHS is the only religion left in Britain. | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
But we have to think of the NHS and social care together. | 0:30:58 | 0:31:01 | |
So if you look at the way the OECD now measure this, | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
actually we're only slightly below the European average but we're | 0:31:04 | 0:31:07 | |
well below what we should be spending on social care and | 0:31:07 | 0:31:10 | |
-we've got to stop thinking of health and social care as separate... -OK. | 0:31:10 | 0:31:13 | |
-..and we need to look at them together. -The woman there. | 0:31:13 | 0:31:16 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:31:16 | 0:31:17 | |
I completely agree with your point about health and social care | 0:31:20 | 0:31:23 | |
being together. That's definitely not what's happening at the moment. | 0:31:23 | 0:31:26 | |
It's all very well looking to how we're going to invest | 0:31:26 | 0:31:29 | |
in the future, for when I'm needing care, but my grandma has just | 0:31:29 | 0:31:34 | |
passed away and she didn't get the care that she paid | 0:31:34 | 0:31:37 | |
her whole life for, so I want to know what investment we need to see | 0:31:37 | 0:31:42 | |
immediately to help the most vulnerable people | 0:31:42 | 0:31:44 | |
in our society at the moment. | 0:31:44 | 0:31:46 | |
Will Self, time to raise basic tax to pay is the question. | 0:31:46 | 0:31:49 | |
I don't know about basic tax but, you know, the Gini Coefficient, | 0:31:49 | 0:31:52 | |
which is how you measure | 0:31:52 | 0:31:54 | |
the disparity between the poor and the rich, | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
has grown wider and wider in this society | 0:31:57 | 0:32:00 | |
since the 1970s while, since the Thatcher regime of the '80s, | 0:32:00 | 0:32:04 | |
our overall levels of income and taxation generally have been low | 0:32:04 | 0:32:10 | |
so, you know, progressive taxation is the sign of a civilised society. | 0:32:10 | 0:32:14 | |
We should raise the top rate of tax, not the standard rate of tax. | 0:32:14 | 0:32:18 | |
You don't have to be a mad Corbynista to understand that. | 0:32:18 | 0:32:22 | |
Trouble is, it's very difficult to do things like this in | 0:32:22 | 0:32:25 | |
the globalised world which Nigel and his merry band are going to shove | 0:32:25 | 0:32:30 | |
into the dustbin of history, | 0:32:30 | 0:32:32 | |
or perhaps throw like a basketball player, because you can't... | 0:32:32 | 0:32:35 | |
You know, you mess around with taxation rates, | 0:32:35 | 0:32:38 | |
money sucks its way out of the city. | 0:32:38 | 0:32:42 | |
You know, national governments have difficulty. | 0:32:42 | 0:32:44 | |
You asked for a national debate on it. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
You'd be better off asking for | 0:32:47 | 0:32:48 | |
an international debate on taxation, frankly. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:51 | |
-Nigel Farage. -It doesn't work like that, Roy. | 0:32:51 | 0:32:54 | |
Just because you pay tuppence extra on whether it's the low rate | 0:32:54 | 0:32:58 | |
of tax or ten pence on the top rate of tax, | 0:32:58 | 0:33:01 | |
does not mean that money will go directly | 0:33:01 | 0:33:04 | |
to the National Health Service or social care. | 0:33:04 | 0:33:06 | |
The way it works is the money goes into the middle, | 0:33:06 | 0:33:09 | |
it comes out and, at the minute, | 0:33:09 | 0:33:11 | |
we still have a gap of between £70-80 billion every year. | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
That's remarkable. | 0:33:15 | 0:33:17 | |
One of the most uncommented things in British politics | 0:33:17 | 0:33:19 | |
over the last few years is that in the five years | 0:33:19 | 0:33:23 | |
of the Conservative/Liberal Democrat Coalition, our national debt - | 0:33:23 | 0:33:27 | |
that's the thing we've been building up ever since we fought Napoleon - | 0:33:27 | 0:33:30 | |
our national debt doubled in those five years, | 0:33:30 | 0:33:34 | |
so are there things we can do? | 0:33:34 | 0:33:35 | |
Well, we could cut taxes, we could cut corporation taxes and get | 0:33:35 | 0:33:40 | |
a lot more companies relocating here. | 0:33:40 | 0:33:42 | |
It sounds today like McDonald's may well be relocating to this country. | 0:33:42 | 0:33:45 | |
-So things we can do... -Great jobs. Great jobs for everybody. | 0:33:45 | 0:33:51 | |
Mine's a Big Mac. | 0:33:51 | 0:33:52 | |
Do you want them paying their corporate taxes in Switzerland, | 0:33:52 | 0:33:55 | |
in Luxembourg, in Dublin, or in this country? | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
The answer is let's get those big firms to pay taxes here. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:00 | |
That's been the whole policy we've followed for years and | 0:34:00 | 0:34:03 | |
that's why we've got seriously poor and voted for you, weirdly. | 0:34:03 | 0:34:07 | |
We haven't done that. We haven't done that. | 0:34:07 | 0:34:09 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:34:09 | 0:34:10 | |
We haven't done that. | 0:34:10 | 0:34:13 | |
No. | 0:34:13 | 0:34:15 | |
We ceded tax sovereignty and we allowed big corporations to | 0:34:15 | 0:34:19 | |
pay tax in Ireland or Luxembourg | 0:34:19 | 0:34:21 | |
and what we ought to be doing is being competitive. | 0:34:21 | 0:34:24 | |
But honestly, the real answer to the question is that I don't | 0:34:24 | 0:34:27 | |
think anyone knows how to deal with this. | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
You know, Blair, back in '97, thought... | 0:34:30 | 0:34:32 | |
AUDIENCE MEMBER HECKLES | 0:34:32 | 0:34:33 | |
..think the unthinkable about pensions, about health provision. | 0:34:33 | 0:34:37 | |
He ducked it and the truth is we're living longer, | 0:34:37 | 0:34:41 | |
we're all living healthier lifestyles, I'm told, | 0:34:41 | 0:34:43 | |
and I don't think anyone really has got a clue how on earth we're | 0:34:43 | 0:34:48 | |
going to give people pensions and health care 50 years from now. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
Your party, you flirted with the idea of an insurance-based | 0:34:51 | 0:34:54 | |
system originally and then you went off it, didn't you? | 0:34:54 | 0:34:56 | |
I looked at what the French are doing and the French were definitely | 0:34:56 | 0:34:59 | |
getting better bang for their buck | 0:34:59 | 0:35:00 | |
with their health system so I think, you know, | 0:35:00 | 0:35:03 | |
there are lots of things about Europe that are wonderful and | 0:35:03 | 0:35:06 | |
we could perhaps learn from, and maybe if other health systems are | 0:35:06 | 0:35:09 | |
better than ours in terms of delivery, we should learn from it. | 0:35:09 | 0:35:11 | |
We'll hear from Louise about the American one. | 0:35:11 | 0:35:13 | |
I want to hear from the woman at the back there. | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
Yes, the woman with spectacles at the very, very back. Yes. | 0:35:15 | 0:35:18 | |
I just wanted to take Nigel Farage up on his corporation tax point. | 0:35:18 | 0:35:23 | |
-Yeah. -I run a business, I would happily pay more corporation tax | 0:35:23 | 0:35:27 | |
and I think the rich should be taxed more. | 0:35:27 | 0:35:30 | |
It's completely bonkers that you want to make it easier for | 0:35:30 | 0:35:33 | |
people to get rich instead of harder. | 0:35:33 | 0:35:35 | |
I don't like these big companies doing business in this country | 0:35:35 | 0:35:38 | |
but not paying their taxes in this country because they've been lured | 0:35:38 | 0:35:41 | |
away to other parts of Europe. I want them to pay here. | 0:35:41 | 0:35:44 | |
But we don't want those people in our country. | 0:35:44 | 0:35:46 | |
If people are going to leave the country because they're not | 0:35:46 | 0:35:48 | |
going to pay our taxes, let them go. | 0:35:48 | 0:35:50 | |
-Well, we are living... -They're not civilised. | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
We are living in this... | 0:35:53 | 0:35:54 | |
Will said we're living in this global world, we have to compete. | 0:35:54 | 0:35:58 | |
-Simple as that. -I want to go to the hand there, | 0:35:58 | 0:36:00 | |
with spectacles attached, I think. Yes. | 0:36:00 | 0:36:03 | |
Oh... Why does it have to be political? | 0:36:03 | 0:36:07 | |
I would like to see the NHS and education system taken out | 0:36:07 | 0:36:13 | |
and not be a political football all the time. | 0:36:13 | 0:36:16 | |
The money wasted by every government doing different things and | 0:36:16 | 0:36:21 | |
bringing in different aspects of it is horrendous, the money wasted. | 0:36:21 | 0:36:27 | |
Why can't we have two panels of experts | 0:36:27 | 0:36:30 | |
that run these two very important...? | 0:36:30 | 0:36:32 | |
-WILL SELF: -Oh... You can't have experts. | 0:36:32 | 0:36:35 | |
They're not allowed any more. | 0:36:35 | 0:36:36 | |
Richard... Richard... Richard Burgon. | 0:36:38 | 0:36:41 | |
I think it's really important that people have raised this issue | 0:36:41 | 0:36:45 | |
and I'd like to congratulate the woman at the back who runs | 0:36:45 | 0:36:48 | |
her own business for saying what a lot of people think | 0:36:48 | 0:36:51 | |
but a lot of people think that no-one else agrees with, | 0:36:51 | 0:36:54 | |
that businesspeople, some businesspeople realise that | 0:36:54 | 0:36:58 | |
it was wrong for the Conservative government to cut corporation tax. | 0:36:58 | 0:37:02 | |
It's not good for the NHS, | 0:37:02 | 0:37:04 | |
corporation tax in the United States even is much higher, | 0:37:04 | 0:37:07 | |
it's not good for our public services and, in the long run, | 0:37:07 | 0:37:09 | |
it's not good for the economy in which our businesses operate. | 0:37:09 | 0:37:14 | |
We've also got to look at the facts, | 0:37:14 | 0:37:15 | |
not just at what the tax rates are at the top and elsewhere, | 0:37:15 | 0:37:19 | |
but also the fact of are we collecting the tax? | 0:37:19 | 0:37:22 | |
There have been cuts to tax collection in terms of the staff | 0:37:22 | 0:37:28 | |
in charge of dealing with tax avoidance and tax evasion. | 0:37:28 | 0:37:31 | |
And with the super-rich. I'm not even on about MPs. | 0:37:31 | 0:37:34 | |
I'm on about the super-rich. | 0:37:34 | 0:37:36 | |
There is tax avoidance and tax evasion on an industrial | 0:37:36 | 0:37:39 | |
scale and we need determination to tackle that. | 0:37:39 | 0:37:42 | |
It's the most unpatriotic thing | 0:37:42 | 0:37:44 | |
because when those people don't pay their tax, | 0:37:44 | 0:37:47 | |
they are stealing from every person in this audience, they're | 0:37:47 | 0:37:50 | |
stealing from your schools, they're stealing from your hospitals. | 0:37:50 | 0:37:53 | |
Let's stop praising these people | 0:37:53 | 0:37:55 | |
and electing them as President of the United States | 0:37:55 | 0:37:58 | |
and let's start collecting their tax. | 0:37:58 | 0:37:59 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:37:59 | 0:38:01 | |
And you think that would fill the gap? | 0:38:06 | 0:38:09 | |
That'd be part of the way to filling the gap. | 0:38:09 | 0:38:11 | |
But we also need a strategy for economic growth. | 0:38:11 | 0:38:14 | |
All right. And Roy Horn says income tax... Dr Horn, I think, yes? | 0:38:14 | 0:38:21 | |
You think a basic rate of income tax should be increased? | 0:38:21 | 0:38:24 | |
I don't think it's just basic rate tax. That brings in a huge tax take. | 0:38:24 | 0:38:28 | |
I think it is the higher rate of taxes as well. | 0:38:28 | 0:38:30 | |
And I accept all the points the panel have made | 0:38:30 | 0:38:33 | |
regarding the evasion of tax. | 0:38:33 | 0:38:35 | |
And the fact you actually need a new tax to deal with corporations, | 0:38:35 | 0:38:39 | |
a sort of tax which they can only set against UK corporation tax. | 0:38:39 | 0:38:44 | |
But I must say the only person on your panel tonight who can | 0:38:44 | 0:38:46 | |
change this is Sarah Wollaston, | 0:38:46 | 0:38:49 | |
and she is crying a lot of crocodile tears over the NHS. | 0:38:49 | 0:38:54 | |
The NHS needs money. Stop giving us this sort of rhetoric. | 0:38:54 | 0:38:58 | |
Start finding more money. | 0:38:58 | 0:39:00 | |
What are her crocodile tears? | 0:39:00 | 0:39:01 | |
-APPLAUSE -Well... -Wait a minute. | 0:39:01 | 0:39:04 | |
-You accuse her of hypocrisy by saying she's... -I do. | 0:39:04 | 0:39:08 | |
She will sit there and tell us how difficult it is for the NHS | 0:39:08 | 0:39:11 | |
to be run and how many people need to be treated. | 0:39:11 | 0:39:14 | |
We know the demand of this equation. | 0:39:14 | 0:39:18 | |
The Tories - Sarah Wollaston is in that group - | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
are not providing the cash to meet that demand. | 0:39:21 | 0:39:24 | |
It is as simple as that. | 0:39:24 | 0:39:25 | |
I will answer your point because it is something... Cos I chair | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
the Health Committee and this is something that we have looked at. | 0:39:28 | 0:39:31 | |
We're there to hold the government to account and I agree with you | 0:39:31 | 0:39:34 | |
that we're not putting enough in and that I think we have | 0:39:34 | 0:39:38 | |
increased the amount of spending on the total health spend. | 0:39:38 | 0:39:41 | |
Then what are you going to do? You are the government of today. | 0:39:41 | 0:39:45 | |
I think where you misunderstand, sir, is that I'm not government, | 0:39:45 | 0:39:48 | |
that there is another part of Parliament which holds | 0:39:48 | 0:39:51 | |
government to account and that is the Select Committee system | 0:39:51 | 0:39:54 | |
and these are cross-party committees which are there to scrutinise | 0:39:54 | 0:39:58 | |
what the government is doing and actually to hold them to account, | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
to ask the questions that you're asking, | 0:40:01 | 0:40:03 | |
and I think it's a good thing that there are more politicians | 0:40:03 | 0:40:05 | |
now who come from backgrounds from health, from all sorts of | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
other backgrounds, who can use the experience that they have to | 0:40:09 | 0:40:12 | |
come in and try and advise government and hold | 0:40:12 | 0:40:15 | |
government to account, and that's the role I have and I think | 0:40:15 | 0:40:17 | |
a lot of people assume that the Select Committees are part of | 0:40:17 | 0:40:21 | |
government but they're not, they're part of Parliament. | 0:40:21 | 0:40:23 | |
-But I understand... -There are more politicians talking about it | 0:40:23 | 0:40:27 | |
but the Tory government is doing nothing about it. | 0:40:27 | 0:40:30 | |
And what you need is a mechanism in Parliament to hold government | 0:40:30 | 0:40:34 | |
to account to make these points. | 0:40:34 | 0:40:36 | |
-I know it... -It might be a Tory majority, mightn't it, | 0:40:36 | 0:40:40 | |
in the House of Commons? Which is what you've got. | 0:40:40 | 0:40:42 | |
The one people who can do something about this are doing nothing. | 0:40:42 | 0:40:46 | |
You say you want a mechanism, he says you're doing nothing, | 0:40:46 | 0:40:49 | |
but you do have a majority, as you've just said. | 0:40:49 | 0:40:52 | |
You could just change it tomorrow. | 0:40:52 | 0:40:54 | |
Indeed, and so my role in Parliament is to hold the government to | 0:40:54 | 0:40:58 | |
account and say I think there is more that we could be doing | 0:40:58 | 0:41:01 | |
to make our NHS and social care work better and to suggest | 0:41:01 | 0:41:05 | |
-mechanisms by which they could do that. -All right. Pause that. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:08 | |
-Louise... OK, doctor. Louise Mensch. -It might be... -No, hold on. | 0:41:08 | 0:41:11 | |
..your ideology that's holding you back. | 0:41:11 | 0:41:14 | |
-Louise Mensch. -I want to start off by apologising to Sarah Wollaston. | 0:41:14 | 0:41:18 | |
During the Brexit referendum, I said that for narrow political gain | 0:41:18 | 0:41:22 | |
she had changed her vote and I am sorry, Sarah, | 0:41:22 | 0:41:25 | |
that I said that, because I was completely wrong. | 0:41:25 | 0:41:28 | |
You are one of the best MPs that we have seen in a long time | 0:41:28 | 0:41:32 | |
and this is a doctor who served the public all her life as a GP, | 0:41:32 | 0:41:36 | |
working in rape crisis centres before she was elected | 0:41:36 | 0:41:40 | |
in an open primary and came into politics and when I hear | 0:41:40 | 0:41:43 | |
this level of cynicism I do get slightly annoyed because when | 0:41:43 | 0:41:47 | |
people are doing their best to stand up for the public and they're | 0:41:47 | 0:41:51 | |
just treated like random liars, that is wrong. | 0:41:51 | 0:41:54 | |
Let me say though to the question that was asked in terms of | 0:41:54 | 0:41:56 | |
shall we raise tax on basic ratepayers? | 0:41:56 | 0:41:59 | |
Shall we raise it on corporations? Shall we raise it on the super-rich? | 0:41:59 | 0:42:02 | |
Let's just have a big tax party and raise the tax on everybody. | 0:42:02 | 0:42:05 | |
I don't think that there is this perfect balance between | 0:42:05 | 0:42:09 | |
throwing money at the NHS in the state that it is in, | 0:42:09 | 0:42:12 | |
and receiving the best care. | 0:42:12 | 0:42:14 | |
The question shouldn't be how can we spend more money on the NHS? | 0:42:14 | 0:42:17 | |
The question should be how can we get the best possible care | 0:42:17 | 0:42:20 | |
across disciplines for people that is free for the point of use? | 0:42:20 | 0:42:24 | |
How can we get the best possible NHS? | 0:42:24 | 0:42:26 | |
And the answer isn't just to raise taxes. That makes our economy worse. | 0:42:26 | 0:42:30 | |
Socialism has never succeeded | 0:42:30 | 0:42:32 | |
anywhere in the world that it has been tried. | 0:42:32 | 0:42:35 | |
Capitalism is what makes these things grow. | 0:42:35 | 0:42:38 | |
And we saw in Dfid, the Department for International Development, | 0:42:38 | 0:42:41 | |
they had some openness. | 0:42:41 | 0:42:43 | |
They published where the money went and journalist people were able to | 0:42:43 | 0:42:46 | |
look at it and see all the waste, all the consultants, | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
all the corruption, all the stuff that's not going to the front line. | 0:42:48 | 0:42:52 | |
I'd like to see some openness in what's spent in the NHS and | 0:42:52 | 0:42:55 | |
see if we can improve our NHS for everybody in this country | 0:42:55 | 0:42:59 | |
without just throwing money at it and that's the answer. | 0:42:59 | 0:43:02 | |
Thank you. | 0:43:02 | 0:43:04 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:43:04 | 0:43:05 | |
Yes, the woman up over there. I'll come to you in a second. Yes. | 0:43:08 | 0:43:11 | |
I'm glad that you mentioned Dfid, actually, | 0:43:11 | 0:43:13 | |
cos what I think would be important is...is not to look at | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
increasing taxation but looking at where our budgets are at | 0:43:17 | 0:43:20 | |
the moment and perhaps looking at reducing foreign aid for this | 0:43:20 | 0:43:22 | |
reason, that a lot of the illegal immigrants in this country | 0:43:22 | 0:43:26 | |
are using resources, and we discussed last week that you | 0:43:26 | 0:43:28 | |
can't turn them away from hospitals and you can't turn them away | 0:43:28 | 0:43:31 | |
from schools, so why can we not treat these people, | 0:43:31 | 0:43:33 | |
give them the resources that people who are legal here are | 0:43:33 | 0:43:36 | |
entitled to, but get reimbursement from the foreign aid budget? | 0:43:36 | 0:43:39 | |
So to shuffle the budgets we have, rather than increase taxation. | 0:43:39 | 0:43:42 | |
Use the Dfid budget for people who have arrived here as immigrants? | 0:43:42 | 0:43:45 | |
No, illegal immigrants here, and we can't turn them away, | 0:43:45 | 0:43:48 | |
they're effectively foreigners in this country, | 0:43:48 | 0:43:50 | |
so treat them with the same budget that the foreign aid would | 0:43:50 | 0:43:52 | |
have given them in their countries. | 0:43:52 | 0:43:54 | |
All right. What do you think of that? | 0:43:54 | 0:43:56 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:43:56 | 0:43:59 | |
What do you think of that particular proposal? | 0:43:59 | 0:44:01 | |
Well, I do want to make the point, by the way, | 0:44:01 | 0:44:03 | |
that our NHS is kept running by migrants who work in our NHS | 0:44:03 | 0:44:09 | |
and we do need to look at increasing training | 0:44:09 | 0:44:12 | |
so we're training more doctors, so we're training more nurses. | 0:44:12 | 0:44:15 | |
But on the point that Louise raised... | 0:44:15 | 0:44:16 | |
On the point she was making, can you just do that one? | 0:44:16 | 0:44:19 | |
-You heard her point? -I was talking about the budget, | 0:44:19 | 0:44:21 | |
how you pay for it, how you get money, | 0:44:21 | 0:44:23 | |
and it's not so much increasing taxation but looking at | 0:44:23 | 0:44:26 | |
where our budget, our national budget is spent. | 0:44:26 | 0:44:28 | |
We have a huge foreign aid budget, | 0:44:28 | 0:44:30 | |
which is actually quite a lot more than other countries, | 0:44:30 | 0:44:33 | |
and where we're looking after the interests of illegal immigrants | 0:44:33 | 0:44:36 | |
who shouldn't really be here but we don't want to | 0:44:36 | 0:44:38 | |
turn them away from our hospitals and our schools and our housing, | 0:44:38 | 0:44:41 | |
indeed, our prisons, and invoice that back to the foreign aid budget | 0:44:41 | 0:44:44 | |
and get it back in. | 0:44:44 | 0:44:46 | |
The reason for the crisis in our NHS is not the amount of money | 0:44:46 | 0:44:50 | |
that the Conservative government spends on foreign aid. | 0:44:50 | 0:44:53 | |
What I would say is that I do agree that the NHS should be properly | 0:44:53 | 0:44:57 | |
funded but it's not only proper funding that will solve the problem. | 0:44:57 | 0:45:01 | |
I think we have, in Jeremy Hunt, a Health Secretary that is failing. | 0:45:01 | 0:45:06 | |
Guess what - with the exception of Sarah, | 0:45:06 | 0:45:09 | |
none of us have been a doctor. | 0:45:09 | 0:45:12 | |
I think that Jeremy Hunt shouldn't be looking for politicians to | 0:45:12 | 0:45:15 | |
just to give answers on the NHS. | 0:45:15 | 0:45:16 | |
Perhaps he should listen to the professionals who work | 0:45:16 | 0:45:19 | |
in the NHS rather than picking fights with them. | 0:45:19 | 0:45:21 | |
But on the final point, Louise says that socialism has never worked. | 0:45:21 | 0:45:25 | |
-SHE MOUTHS -Socialism has worked. | 0:45:25 | 0:45:28 | |
The NHS is a pocket of socialism in our country, | 0:45:28 | 0:45:31 | |
set up by a Labour government, which ensures that we don't have | 0:45:31 | 0:45:35 | |
a situation like we do in the United States | 0:45:35 | 0:45:37 | |
where people feel for your wallet before they feel for your pulse. | 0:45:37 | 0:45:40 | |
I'm really proud of that and so should you be. | 0:45:40 | 0:45:42 | |
I want to... APPLAUSE | 0:45:42 | 0:45:45 | |
I'll take just one more point, from the woman in green there, | 0:45:45 | 0:45:49 | |
then I must move on, I'm afraid. | 0:45:49 | 0:45:51 | |
Hi there. I just wanted to say that although we can put more money into | 0:45:51 | 0:45:55 | |
the NHS, for sure, from tax, but actually how are we going to | 0:45:55 | 0:45:59 | |
be sure that that money is spent wisely? | 0:45:59 | 0:46:02 | |
There's so much bureaucracy going on and it's not necessarily | 0:46:02 | 0:46:05 | |
going into the services that it needs to. | 0:46:05 | 0:46:07 | |
For example, there's a report that came out last week which | 0:46:07 | 0:46:11 | |
showed that suicide is the main cause of death of new mums. | 0:46:11 | 0:46:17 | |
That's something that in perinatal mental health, | 0:46:19 | 0:46:22 | |
you know, we are not saving women who have just had babies. | 0:46:22 | 0:46:28 | |
I've had postnatal illness for 13 years. | 0:46:28 | 0:46:30 | |
Hold on. Just start again. Start again. | 0:46:30 | 0:46:34 | |
I had postnatal illness for 13 years. | 0:46:34 | 0:46:37 | |
-All right. -No help. | 0:46:37 | 0:46:39 | |
No help. OK, and I'll take one more point. | 0:46:39 | 0:46:41 | |
You, sir, in the checked shirt there. Yes. | 0:46:41 | 0:46:45 | |
I do work in the NHS. | 0:46:45 | 0:46:46 | |
-Yes, what as? -I'm a manager. -Yeah. | 0:46:46 | 0:46:50 | |
AUDIENCE MURMUR | 0:46:50 | 0:46:52 | |
A bureaucrat. | 0:46:52 | 0:46:53 | |
It's the only organisation I've worked in where everybody | 0:46:53 | 0:46:56 | |
I've come across is genuinely focused on delivering the objective | 0:46:56 | 0:47:00 | |
of that organisation. | 0:47:00 | 0:47:01 | |
I've served in the Army and that was mostly the case in the Army, | 0:47:01 | 0:47:04 | |
but not universally. In NHS, it is. | 0:47:04 | 0:47:07 | |
With 98% of trusts in deficit, or I forget the exact number, | 0:47:07 | 0:47:10 | |
that's not simply a question of bad management. | 0:47:10 | 0:47:13 | |
There is not enough money and I spend all of my days trying | 0:47:13 | 0:47:17 | |
to work out how we can deliver the care that we need to deliver | 0:47:17 | 0:47:20 | |
with what diminishing amounts of money we have. | 0:47:20 | 0:47:23 | |
-We need more money. -And how...? | 0:47:23 | 0:47:25 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:47:25 | 0:47:29 | |
And how do you think that more money should be got? | 0:47:30 | 0:47:34 | |
By increasing taxation or by taking it from other budgets? | 0:47:34 | 0:47:37 | |
I don't know enough about tax mechanisms but there are two people | 0:47:37 | 0:47:40 | |
on the panel that are in a position to change it. | 0:47:40 | 0:47:42 | |
-NIGEL FARAGE: -Once we've left the European Union... | 0:47:42 | 0:47:44 | |
-You're not one of them. -LAUGHTER | 0:47:44 | 0:47:46 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:47:46 | 0:47:48 | |
Absolutely not. | 0:47:49 | 0:47:51 | |
A new hospital every week wouldn't be a bad start, would it? | 0:47:51 | 0:47:53 | |
Let's get on with Article 50 and then we can build more hospitals. | 0:47:53 | 0:47:56 | |
Nigel Farage, were you a supporter of the 350 million thing? | 0:47:56 | 0:48:00 | |
I certainly wasn't. It was stupid. | 0:48:00 | 0:48:01 | |
They should have put 200 million a week, | 0:48:01 | 0:48:03 | |
which would have been factually absolutely correct | 0:48:03 | 0:48:06 | |
and big enough to persuade people there were big savings to be made. | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
Why did the people wanting Brexit exaggerate? | 0:48:09 | 0:48:12 | |
They didn't need to. | 0:48:12 | 0:48:13 | |
-Why did they? -Oh, don't ask me. | 0:48:13 | 0:48:16 | |
Inside the mind of Tory politicians, I don't quite get it. | 0:48:16 | 0:48:20 | |
But it was a big mistake. | 0:48:20 | 0:48:22 | |
As I say, whether it was 350 or 200 was irrelevant, really. | 0:48:22 | 0:48:25 | |
It was to say to people we'll make big savings. | 0:48:25 | 0:48:28 | |
But it was a mistake, yes. | 0:48:28 | 0:48:30 | |
-AUDIENCE MEMBER: -It was a lie. -A lie, somebody shouts out. | 0:48:30 | 0:48:32 | |
You in orange there, the woman in orange just there on the corner. | 0:48:32 | 0:48:36 | |
Thank you. Yes, I think this is an important debate | 0:48:36 | 0:48:39 | |
but we've always focused on NHS | 0:48:39 | 0:48:40 | |
and yet the real problem, as Sarah pointed out, is it's actually | 0:48:40 | 0:48:43 | |
funding social care, and that is funded by the local authorities. | 0:48:43 | 0:48:46 | |
Until we actually accept that, | 0:48:46 | 0:48:48 | |
we're always going to have pressure on our NHS because it's | 0:48:48 | 0:48:51 | |
shifting what should be something that could be managed quite | 0:48:51 | 0:48:54 | |
effectively and quite locally into very, very expensive centres, | 0:48:54 | 0:48:57 | |
putting real cost pressures on those centres, | 0:48:57 | 0:49:00 | |
so we really do have to get the balance right. | 0:49:00 | 0:49:02 | |
Do you think we expect too much social care to be provided and not | 0:49:02 | 0:49:07 | |
enough to be provided by families and individuals for their families? | 0:49:07 | 0:49:11 | |
I think that's an interesting point because I think most people | 0:49:11 | 0:49:13 | |
think the NHS was there to provide care but increasingly care is | 0:49:13 | 0:49:17 | |
being shifted out of the NHS into families, into social care, | 0:49:17 | 0:49:21 | |
into care homes, | 0:49:21 | 0:49:22 | |
and not being provided directly by the NHS and I think that is | 0:49:22 | 0:49:27 | |
a balance that we need to look at and understand a bit better. | 0:49:27 | 0:49:30 | |
OK. And you, sir, in pink here. | 0:49:30 | 0:49:31 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:49:31 | 0:49:32 | |
I work as a part-time carer but I just wanted to pick up on what | 0:49:35 | 0:49:38 | |
Louise said earlier when she apologised to Sarah because I | 0:49:38 | 0:49:42 | |
thought it was only Donald Trump had the gall, | 0:49:42 | 0:49:45 | |
or had the ability to apologise. | 0:49:45 | 0:49:47 | |
-What Nigel Farage said at the beginning. -Thank you, Nigel. | 0:49:47 | 0:49:50 | |
I didn't say only Donald Trump. I said very few. | 0:49:50 | 0:49:53 | |
And she's not in elected politics. | 0:49:53 | 0:49:56 | |
-If she was a Tory MP still, she wouldn't have apologised. -All right. | 0:49:56 | 0:49:59 | |
Let's go on. We've only a few minutes left tonight. | 0:49:59 | 0:50:02 | |
-Deborah Dibb, please. Deborah Dibb. -Thank you. | 0:50:02 | 0:50:04 | |
Is Boris Johnson too much of a loose cannon to be Foreign Secretary? | 0:50:04 | 0:50:09 | |
Oh! | 0:50:09 | 0:50:10 | |
So, we've seen him being reprimanded by Number Ten today | 0:50:10 | 0:50:15 | |
for what he said. Will Self, is he too much of a loose cannon? | 0:50:15 | 0:50:20 | |
Yes, basically. Yeah, he is. | 0:50:20 | 0:50:24 | |
I mean, there was a feeling at Chez Self that perhaps Mrs May had | 0:50:24 | 0:50:32 | |
appointed him deliberately in order to humiliate him but of course, | 0:50:32 | 0:50:38 | |
such is the closeness of our relationship with the House of Saud, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:43 | |
who are our besties, that anything we can do to keep | 0:50:43 | 0:50:48 | |
the House of Saud onside, we're prepared to do. | 0:50:48 | 0:50:53 | |
I mean, after all, you mustn't be too hard on Boris. | 0:50:53 | 0:50:56 | |
He did say the weird thing about the proxy wars, referring to this rather | 0:50:56 | 0:51:01 | |
horrible thing where these people called Houthis are being killed in | 0:51:01 | 0:51:05 | |
Yemen, but what he didn't say, | 0:51:05 | 0:51:07 | |
which would have been much, much more worrying, | 0:51:07 | 0:51:10 | |
was that of course the proxy wars are between... | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
It's really a family argument | 0:51:14 | 0:51:16 | |
between two sides of our dear friends the House of Saud, | 0:51:16 | 0:51:19 | |
who at any opportunity we like to give arms to. | 0:51:19 | 0:51:23 | |
We actually have a British Army unit in Riyadh at the moment | 0:51:23 | 0:51:28 | |
helping them plan to kill Houthis. | 0:51:28 | 0:51:30 | |
So Boris was really being quite restrained, I think. | 0:51:30 | 0:51:35 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:51:35 | 0:51:36 | |
And can you have somebody as Foreign Secretary who says things | 0:51:39 | 0:51:42 | |
that are immediately countermanded by Downing Street? | 0:51:42 | 0:51:44 | |
Is this the new politics? Healthy arrangement? | 0:51:44 | 0:51:46 | |
-He's going to go, isn't he? He's toast, isn't he? -Is he? -Yeah. | 0:51:46 | 0:51:52 | |
Doesn't she need him for the Brexit bit? | 0:51:52 | 0:51:55 | |
Well, I think she can probably come up with something better than that. | 0:51:55 | 0:51:58 | |
But I mean, the whole show may be | 0:51:58 | 0:52:00 | |
about to hit the end of the pier, David. | 0:52:00 | 0:52:02 | |
-Louise Mensch. -No, I don't think he is. | 0:52:02 | 0:52:06 | |
You're saying is Boris too much of a loose cannon to be Foreign Secretary | 0:52:06 | 0:52:10 | |
when Donald Trump has just been elected | 0:52:10 | 0:52:11 | |
President of the United States. I mean, come on. | 0:52:11 | 0:52:14 | |
I don't think that Boris was hard enough on the Saudis and | 0:52:14 | 0:52:20 | |
instead of just saying it's a family war between two sides, | 0:52:20 | 0:52:22 | |
Shia and Sunni, I wish he'd said, "Why are we giving money to this | 0:52:22 | 0:52:27 | |
"hideous nation that is Isis with an embassy, | 0:52:27 | 0:52:29 | |
"that treats women as slaves and chops off their heads in car parks | 0:52:29 | 0:52:33 | |
"and calls them terrorists if they drive?" | 0:52:33 | 0:52:35 | |
We shouldn't have any kind of relationship with Saudi Arabia, | 0:52:35 | 0:52:38 | |
far less have the Foreign Office mandarins sucking up to them | 0:52:38 | 0:52:41 | |
as their ally. And I like about Boris is he speaks his mind and | 0:52:41 | 0:52:44 | |
he is an intelligent man. You may joke but he is clever. | 0:52:44 | 0:52:47 | |
And he will stand up to Putin, | 0:52:47 | 0:52:49 | |
as it's been a bit too much of a lovefest tonight. | 0:52:49 | 0:52:51 | |
I'll say to Nigel Farage, I think your sucking up to this | 0:52:51 | 0:52:54 | |
genocidal tyrant is absolutely disgusting. | 0:52:54 | 0:52:56 | |
This is the man that killed 20-year-old Richard Mayne | 0:52:56 | 0:53:00 | |
and ten other Britons, that shot down MH17, | 0:53:00 | 0:53:03 | |
and the level of sucking up to this disgusting dictator | 0:53:03 | 0:53:07 | |
is something that I hope Boris Johnson will put a stop to | 0:53:07 | 0:53:10 | |
and if he can stand up to the civil servants at the Foreign Office | 0:53:10 | 0:53:12 | |
he'll be doing us all a big favour. | 0:53:12 | 0:53:14 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:53:14 | 0:53:15 | |
Nigel Farage. | 0:53:19 | 0:53:20 | |
Well, I'm feeling as confused right now as Boris is most days. | 0:53:21 | 0:53:25 | |
I find myself in total agreement | 0:53:25 | 0:53:27 | |
with Will Self and Louise Mensch about Saudi Arabia. | 0:53:27 | 0:53:30 | |
Just back in October, Boris was saying what wonderful trade | 0:53:30 | 0:53:33 | |
we heard with that Saudi Arabia and the other point that wasn't made | 0:53:33 | 0:53:37 | |
is that during all the terrible things that have been happening | 0:53:37 | 0:53:40 | |
in the Middle East, the refugee crisis, | 0:53:40 | 0:53:42 | |
the displaced peoples crisis, | 0:53:42 | 0:53:44 | |
do you know how many people Saudi Arabia have taken? | 0:53:44 | 0:53:46 | |
Not one. | 0:53:46 | 0:53:48 | |
Not one. And yet they're about to fund 200 new mosques in Germany. | 0:53:48 | 0:53:53 | |
You may say that's fine but when you realise that the Saudis that | 0:53:53 | 0:53:56 | |
have pushed Wahhabism, it's the Saudis that have pushed the burqa, | 0:53:56 | 0:53:59 | |
it's the Saudis that have pushed the extreme form of Islam that is | 0:53:59 | 0:54:03 | |
causing the problem, so I agree with you on that. | 0:54:03 | 0:54:05 | |
-And you might just answer about Putin. -Look, the point is this. | 0:54:05 | 0:54:09 | |
I said already in this programme to the lady up there, | 0:54:09 | 0:54:12 | |
I would not want to live in Putin's Russia. | 0:54:12 | 0:54:14 | |
I completely understand that, you know, journalists like you | 0:54:14 | 0:54:17 | |
who tweet a lot, I mean, you wouldn't last long over there. | 0:54:17 | 0:54:19 | |
You know, I get all that. | 0:54:19 | 0:54:21 | |
But what I am saying is I do think | 0:54:21 | 0:54:23 | |
our foreign policy provoking him has been a mistake. | 0:54:23 | 0:54:25 | |
We're not provoking him. He's bombed hospitals in Aleppo. | 0:54:25 | 0:54:28 | |
He's killing children right now and you're sucking up to him. | 0:54:28 | 0:54:31 | |
No, no, no. No. Obviously not doing that. | 0:54:31 | 0:54:34 | |
-What I am saying... -LOUISE MENSCH: -Yes, you are. | 0:54:34 | 0:54:36 | |
..we made a major strategic error with Ukraine. | 0:54:36 | 0:54:38 | |
We helped to topple a democratically elected leader by trying to draw | 0:54:38 | 0:54:42 | |
Ukraine into our orbit and I think we should stop | 0:54:42 | 0:54:44 | |
provoking Putin, start talking to him. | 0:54:44 | 0:54:47 | |
You know, I don't want him as a friend, | 0:54:47 | 0:54:49 | |
but neither do I want to go to war with him. | 0:54:49 | 0:54:51 | |
But the question, is Boris Johnson too much of | 0:54:51 | 0:54:53 | |
a loose cannon to be...? Well, as an individual, clearly he is. | 0:54:53 | 0:54:57 | |
But what I'd like to know is what does he stand for? | 0:54:57 | 0:55:01 | |
What does he stand for? | 0:55:01 | 0:55:02 | |
We haven't really heard, other than encouraging people to protest | 0:55:02 | 0:55:06 | |
-outside the embassy, the Russian Embassy. -Brexit maybe? | 0:55:06 | 0:55:09 | |
Did he stand for Brexit? | 0:55:09 | 0:55:11 | |
I saw him getting off the Eurostar this week | 0:55:11 | 0:55:13 | |
and he looked a bit bewildered, I've got to tell you. | 0:55:13 | 0:55:15 | |
Did he stand for Brexit during the campaign | 0:55:15 | 0:55:17 | |
or are you saying he didn't really stand? | 0:55:17 | 0:55:18 | |
He did stand for Brexit in the campaign and now we hear | 0:55:18 | 0:55:21 | |
he's briefing embassies that he supports free movement. | 0:55:21 | 0:55:24 | |
That's hypocrisy. | 0:55:24 | 0:55:25 | |
You're saying we'll deal with some dictators but not with others, | 0:55:25 | 0:55:28 | |
because I don't like Saudi Arabia but I like Putin. | 0:55:28 | 0:55:31 | |
-No, no, no. -Hold it. Hold it, ma'am. I will go to the man up there | 0:55:31 | 0:55:36 | |
in the pink shirt. You, sir, yes. | 0:55:36 | 0:55:39 | |
Nigel's been after a job as an ambassador for some time. | 0:55:39 | 0:55:42 | |
Perhaps he should be the ambassador to the House of Saud. | 0:55:42 | 0:55:46 | |
Thank you. | 0:55:46 | 0:55:48 | |
And you on the far... Yes. | 0:55:48 | 0:55:51 | |
Earlier Nigel Farage said that the Saudis were funding mosques | 0:55:51 | 0:55:54 | |
in Germany and then straightaway talked about Islamophobia. | 0:55:54 | 0:55:58 | |
Isn't blase comments like that the reason why people are feeling | 0:55:58 | 0:56:01 | |
ostracised from society and moving towards extremist groups? | 0:56:01 | 0:56:06 | |
No. No. No. | 0:56:06 | 0:56:08 | |
I have never, ever, ever wanted, and there are some politicians in | 0:56:08 | 0:56:11 | |
Europe that do, I do not want us to go to war with Islam. Far from it. | 0:56:11 | 0:56:15 | |
I want us to get on in this country. | 0:56:15 | 0:56:17 | |
The damage that has been done by the Saudis pushing a very extreme form | 0:56:17 | 0:56:21 | |
of Islam has done more harm than anything else. I promise you. | 0:56:21 | 0:56:25 | |
Absolutely right. | 0:56:25 | 0:56:26 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:56:26 | 0:56:29 | |
A quick point if you would because we're coming to the end. Yes. | 0:56:29 | 0:56:32 | |
You'd said obviously that you don't support or... | 0:56:32 | 0:56:35 | |
You support Donald Trump, don't you? | 0:56:35 | 0:56:37 | |
And he obviously doesn't like Islam, for whatever reason. | 0:56:37 | 0:56:40 | |
OK, I can't go back to Mr Farage | 0:56:40 | 0:56:41 | |
cos we've head quite a lot from him. | 0:56:41 | 0:56:43 | |
-Far too much. -Richard Burgon. You said it, I didn't say that. | 0:56:43 | 0:56:47 | |
Richard Burgon. | 0:56:47 | 0:56:48 | |
On Boris Johnson, | 0:56:48 | 0:56:50 | |
Boris Johnson is, I'm afraid, an actor and a rank opportunist. | 0:56:50 | 0:56:55 | |
One day he was for Remain, | 0:56:55 | 0:56:56 | |
the next day he was for Leave cos he wanted to be leader | 0:56:56 | 0:56:59 | |
of the Conservative Party and Prime Minister, | 0:56:59 | 0:57:02 | |
then his position on Saudi Arabia, | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
what can we believe? | 0:57:05 | 0:57:06 | |
Just two or three weeks ago in the House of Commons, | 0:57:06 | 0:57:10 | |
Labour brought a motion calling on a halt on arms sales to Saudi Arabia, | 0:57:10 | 0:57:16 | |
pending an investigation into whether or not | 0:57:16 | 0:57:18 | |
those weapons are being used for war crimes in Yemen. | 0:57:18 | 0:57:21 | |
Boris Johnson stood at the dispatch box and said, | 0:57:21 | 0:57:24 | |
"Nothing to see here, don't worry about it," | 0:57:24 | 0:57:27 | |
and he voted against the motion. | 0:57:27 | 0:57:29 | |
Then we find he's saying these other things when he's abroad. | 0:57:29 | 0:57:32 | |
He's not a safe pair of hands, he's not responsible, | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
and who knows what he actually believes in, apart from himself? | 0:57:36 | 0:57:39 | |
OK. | 0:57:39 | 0:57:40 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:57:40 | 0:57:41 | |
He's your man, Sarah Wollaston, your Foreign Secretary. | 0:57:43 | 0:57:47 | |
He absolutely shouldn't lose his job. He spoke the truth. | 0:57:47 | 0:57:50 | |
He called for leaders in the region to stand up and | 0:57:50 | 0:57:53 | |
stop the sectarian bloodbath and that starts a debate and starts us | 0:57:53 | 0:57:57 | |
in that direction, I'd say he's done us all a favour. | 0:57:57 | 0:58:00 | |
OK, thank you. | 0:58:00 | 0:58:01 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:01 | 0:58:03 | |
Time's up. We're back in the New Year | 0:58:03 | 0:58:06 | |
in Solihull, and the week after that in Peterborough, | 0:58:06 | 0:58:09 | |
so come and take part. I can't remain what date it is in Solihull. | 0:58:09 | 0:58:12 | |
It's about two weeks into January. The 12th, I think, of January. | 0:58:12 | 0:58:16 | |
So 12th of January just outside Birmingham | 0:58:16 | 0:58:18 | |
or Peterborough the week after that. | 0:58:18 | 0:58:20 | |
You can go to our website, you can call 0330 123 99 88. | 0:58:20 | 0:58:24 | |
If you're listening on 5 Live to this but not seeing it, | 0:58:24 | 0:58:27 | |
you know the debate goes on, on Question Time Extra Time. | 0:58:27 | 0:58:30 | |
But my thanks now to our panel here and to all of you who came | 0:58:30 | 0:58:34 | |
to take part in this last programme before Christmas. | 0:58:34 | 0:58:37 | |
So, from Maidenhead, until the New Year, | 0:58:37 | 0:58:40 | |
a very Merry Christmas, everyone, and good night. | 0:58:40 | 0:58:43 | |
APPLAUSE | 0:58:43 | 0:58:44 |