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Welcome to this first Question Time of 2017. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Conservative Leader of the House of Commons, David Lidington. | :00:00. | :00:19. | |
The Labour MP who chaired the Vote Leave campaign, Gisela Stuart. | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
Guardian columnist and broadcaster, Paul Mason. | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
Professor of Planetary and Space Sciences | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
at the Open University, Monica Grady. | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
And the businessman and Brexit campaigner | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
who was a major Ukip donor, Arron Banks. | :00:37. | :00:53. | |
As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook, | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
Our first question from Inderveer Kang. Is Donald Trump fit to be | :01:00. | :01:20. | |
leader of the free world? Arron Banks? I think he absolutely is. He | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
won the election fair and square. A lot of people question his methods, | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
maybe. But our experience of dealing with him, we had quite a lot of | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
interaction between the Brexit campaign and Trump. I think he is | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
pretty rational, actually. Certainly, in our meetings with him | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
he was very calm and reflective and he is quite different off-camera. | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
There is certainly an element of showmanship about what he does and | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
time will tell whether the sorts of things he is going to do will be | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
radically better or not. But he has appointed a cabinet of businessmen, | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
very rich ones, at that. So we will see how it pans out. We saw you with | :02:08. | :02:17. | |
Nigel Farage in the Golden lift at Trump Tower. What were you talking | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
about? That wasn't the lift, that was his front door. What did you | :02:23. | :02:29. | |
talk about? With Nigel, he wanted to talk about the campaign. He was | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
tired, it had been a bruising campaign, and they shared that | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
camaraderie. But we talked, interestingly, about how he wants to | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
redistribute wealth from the rich to the poor in America. I think even | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
Paul would have been at home there. It was interesting. I would not have | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
used the showers! That's very naughty. Paul Mason. If any of the | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
substantive allegations in the security dossier that's being | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
published now and handed to the American authorities are true, he | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
can't be the President. If they are true, and they are allegations, then | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
he is a security risk. Not a security risk to America, but a | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
security risk to the 800 British troops who will be sent to Estonia | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
this year to stand on the front line with Russia. There is no proof in | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
that dossier that he has done any of these things. It looks like raw | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
intelligence. I have seen secret intelligence. It doesn't look like | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
that. This looks like the input that intelligence people use to make | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
decisions. The person who wrote it clearly has no interception | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
facilities, no data surveillance facilities. But you know, Trump | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
himself, during the campaign, actually called on Russia to hack | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is not just a candidate but the former | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
first Lady of the United States. This means, if any of these things | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
are true, and they are two things, one is conspiracy with the Kremlin | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
over years, and misbehaviour in a hotel. The CIA will know about it. | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
The CIA and FBI -- FBI will know the details. They have the technology. | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
They know what shade of gold the shower was. So Obama knows. Obama | :04:22. | :04:31. | |
will know. And I think he has the duty, as do the CIA chiefs, for us, | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
not just the American people, to level with people in the West what | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
they think is true. If it is not true, let's move on. Other than | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
that, of course he has the right. He is the elected President. Look, he | :04:44. | :04:53. | |
has been elected and will be inaugurated. I think we ought to | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
have a debate about the people he appoints around him now. We should | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
have a very serious look at whether the American constitution will be | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
stress tested, because Congress will have its say as to what the | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
President can do. I would not have voted for him but nobody asked me. I | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
don't think we should equate Brexit with Trump. These were two | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
completely different things. He has been elected leader of the free | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
world and we have a responsibility to work with him as best as we can, | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
and the jury is out. The question is, is he fit to be leader? You have | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
watched his campaign and heard the way he conducted himself. What | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
politicians are fit to be elected, if you put it that way? He probably | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
got elected because he wasn't a politician. If you talk about | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
fitness, we know one thing about the American system. It is enormously | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
robust and has means to deal with people who are not fit for the | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
system, and it will be up to the Americans to exercise their | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
democratic procedures. What we have seen with Donald Trump in the past | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
is that he is an entrepreneur, has made a fortune and lost one. He has | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
done all sorts of things which may or may not be dodgy. He has | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
certainly expressed some extremely unpalatable opinions and shown | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
himself to be, you know, well, I'm not going to say dodgy, but he has | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
shown himself to be a strange person. But he has not been | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
confined. He was the leader of his empire. He was in charge of his own | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
destiny. As he becomes leader of the free world, the democratically, we | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
assume, elected leader of the free world. He is going to be hedged | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
around by advisers. OK, yes, the ones he has appointed but also | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
others. He will not be able, I sincerely trust, be able to push | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
that nuclear button, give every home in the USA two guns, as he has said. | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
He will not be able to do this. He will be constricted. He has to be. | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
Then he will be a massive disappointment to the people who | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
voted for him. Maybe. Maybe so. Look at his first policy, he wants to | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
take on the pharmaceutical industry in America. That is a wonderful | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
aspiration as his first policy. I think he aims to do what he says. | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
When he said, I am going to build a big, beautiful wall and the Mexicans | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
are going to pay for it, he will do it. Whether you agree with it or | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
not, that is what he will do. But the joke was, and the Mexicans have | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
agreed to pay for it and no damn American is going to come across it. | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
Me go back to the question. What do you think? I don't think he is fit | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
to be leader of the free world. He does not have the right temperament, | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
he is too aggressive, continually isolating communities and his | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
relationship with Russia is frankly troubling. In the second row from | :07:58. | :08:05. | |
the back. It is ridiculous to say he is fit to be President, because when | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
you compare Obama's leaving message in his message of hope, aspiration | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
and equality and you compare it to the Trump campaign built on | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
scapegoating minorities, racism and allegations of misogyny, I really | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
think his character which he has shown isn't fit to be President at | :08:23. | :08:24. | |
all. APPLAUSE | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
It is very well for us to sit here and say he is not fit to be | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
President. On the 20th of January, he is going | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
to be the 45th President. We will have to deal with it. And to Paul | :08:41. | :08:47. | |
Mason, you know, these allegations, they are just that. There is no | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
evidence being put forward at all. He has denied the allegations. How | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
do you suggest he proves they are not true. How can you prove they are | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
not true? It is not for him to prove. These allegations have not | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
just been made by BuzzFeed. They have gone into the American | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
intelligence system and they are being assessed by the American | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
intelligence system. It is for Obama, and the boss of the CIA, to | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
tell everyone what they think of them. It is not like someone just | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
sat there and made an allegation. The man who wrote it is an | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
ex-British intelligence officer. We do not employ idiots in MI6. We | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
might have done in the past! But this guy sounds like he knows what | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
he is talking about. Bidden excellent job with the 45 minute | :09:36. | :09:43. | |
dossier, didn't they? -- they did an excellent job with it. That | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
pretended to be a worked through judgment and it wasn't. He doesn't | :09:47. | :09:55. | |
have much time, does he, a couple of days? David Lidington, it is | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
difficult for you because being in the government you have too cosy up | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
to him. The react -- the reality is, as the gentleman said, that Donald | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
Trump, whatever any of us think about him, and he would admit | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
himself in the US that he is something of a Marmite politician. | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
He has huge numbers of fervent supporters and numbers who flocked | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
to the polls to vote for Hillary Clinton to try to defeat him. But he | :10:23. | :10:29. | |
has been elected, fairly, under the democratic constitutional system the | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
United States has. They have, as others have said, other | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
institutions, a Supreme Court, a Congress that has a constitutional | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
role of its own, and that is a matter for the citizens of the | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
United States. Our job in the United Kingdom is, yes, David, to work | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
closely with whoever, Democrat or Republican, is elected by the | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
American people. Because US power and policy matter to us, to our | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
security, it matters to things like counterterrorist policy and | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
cooperation. It matters to the world economy and to trading opportunities | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
around the world. So we need to work to forge a good working relationship | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
with Mr Trump and his administration. It doesn't mean we | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
will agree on everything. There have been numerous occasions when | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
Conservative and Labour Prime Minister is alike have disagreed | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
with a particular American administration. But there has been a | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
constant acceptance of the reality that our national interests involve | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
working closely with whoever is democratically elected Indian | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
knighted States. And do you think we are at the front of the queue or the | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
back, as President Obama has said, in terms of trade agreements? The | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
initial words from Mr Trump are encouraging. And I know from earlier | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
roles of mine in government that the United States is a tough negotiator | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
when it comes to their own economic interests. But let's look for the | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
opportunities. Let's hear from the audience. The woman in the back row. | :12:06. | :12:14. | |
The question was, is he fit, and we don't know if he is fit or not. But | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
a concern is the people he is pointing to advise him. Are they | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
fit? What experience do they have of politics, of running a huge country | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
like the USA? Are you uneasy? Very uneasy. What about you, sir? Whilst | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
I understand he won the election fair and square, he led a campaign | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
in which he said some of the most deplorable things I have heard from | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
a politician. It is ironic that he has gone back on so many promises, | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
watering them down, which shows he is not fit, if he has to go back on | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
his promises. What did you particularly object to? The Muslim | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
ban, and I don't think we should be building walls. We should be | :13:01. | :13:02. | |
building bridges, not walls. APPLAUSE | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
Arron Banks? I think you have to see in the context of the election. The | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
whole US media were against him. Yes, there were times where I think | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
he overstepped the mark, clearly. Where, for you? The Muslim ban. I | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
think that is demonstrably wrong and I would condemn it. And saying it | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
doesn't make him unfit? Don't think it does make him unfit. We have seen | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
some ropey US president, George Bush at the top. OK, maybe he is a bit | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
unfiltered, that might be the description, but often politicians | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
are thinking these things and saying it behind closed doors, and he just | :13:53. | :14:00. | |
comes out and says it. Anybody else? How refreshing it is to have a | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
non-career politician and how refreshing it is to have strong | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
leadership in the west. If he had been our leader, he'd have signed | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
Article 50 before the courts got involved. OK. It might come to a bit | :14:13. | :14:22. | |
of that. Let's go on, because he will be president, well, not quite | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
next week, but almost. Anyway, we will be in Peterborough next week. | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
We will be in London the week after. On the screen is how to apply, if | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
you want to come to Peter Brock or London a fortnight away, and I will | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
give the details at the end. Our second question comes from Natalie | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
Stanley. Is Theresa May wrong to reject the claims made by the | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
British Red Cross at NHS hospitals are facing a humanitarian crisis? | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
The British Red Cross this week saying there is a humanitarian | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
crisis in the NHS and the Prime Minister rejected it. Gisela Stuart. | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
I think humanitarian crisis probably was a phrase we might expect to see | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
in other contexts. What do you mean by that? I associate it with war | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
zones and something more unpredictable. So they were wrong? I | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
would choose that phrase. Last year this time, we had the junior doctors | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
strike. The Tory government has stripped money out of social care. | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
We know that, if you want decent public services, the health sector | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
will be affected by any cutbacks in social care and its knock-on effect, | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
and I would really advise Theresa May to listen very carefully to | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
Simon Stevens. I've worked with him. He understands the health service | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
and politics and how it connects. He knows that just more money isn't the | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
answer and what he asked for was greater coordination, bringing | :15:58. | :15:59. | |
forward the money, and Theresa May would be well advised to listen to | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
his advice. APPLAUSE | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
Of course, when you were running the Vote Leave campaign, you said there | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
would be ?18 billion more for the NHS if you voted out. You stood in | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
front of that bus saying ?350 million a week, double what is being | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
spent. We said we had lost control and, as Vote Leave, we said we would | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
give ?100 million of that to the health service. I still think we | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
should do that. The phrase was, a communitarian crisis is one | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
hospitals in Aleppo are being bombed, but what we are seeing now | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
is hospitals under pressure. -- a humanitarian crisis. It is a mark of | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
the professionalism and hard work of NHS staff that, despite those | :16:51. | :16:52. | |
pressures, we are seeing record numbers of people treated at A and | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
in other parts of the health service, including record numbers | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
being treated today despite those pressures within the four hour time | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
limit, but we made to make sure they take action about this. We continue | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
to direct more money at the NHS. That is what the government is doing | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
and continues to do. We have to make sure that we also are making certain | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
that the best practice that we find in the NHS is replicated and | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
mainstreamed in every trust around the country because, when you look | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
at the pattern at different trusts, you find they often have a very | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
varied record in terms of the quality of service they provide. I | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
think, if we look to the medium-term... No, it's not the ... | :17:43. | :17:57. | |
It's the hospitals' fault? No, the reason people are treated in record | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
numbers is due to the response of listen in professionalism and | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
dedication of NHS staff but, in an organisation as vast as the NHS, NHS | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
professionals themselves say that they can find ways in certain | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
hospitals and they are delivering better quality than other trusts. We | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
had missed Staffordshire -- mid Staffordshire. That will always be | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
true, but what about Simon Stevens, it is stretching it to save the NHS | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
is more than he asked for? Uses a lot of words but one of them wasn't | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
sorry and I think the government should be saying, we are sorry to | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
the people dying on trolleys, because that is where it's at. I | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
don't care whether it is a humanitarian crisis, it's a | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
political crisis and it's a disgrace for a developed country. | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
APPLAUSE 20 hospitals yesterday declared a | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
black alert, the worst thing you can declare. The four hour wait target | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
has not been met since July 20 15. 4 million people waiting for referral | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
for treatment, getting from the appointment to being treated, and | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
ambulance targets haven't been on time for 20 months. A doctor is | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
writing in the Evening Standard tonight that people going having | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
their bed filled and not being able to get back into the bed after a | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
serious operation. We should not reduce it to a single cause, because | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
there are lots of problems in the NHS, ageing, social care, doesn't | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
work, hasn't got enough money, not enough space and time to innovate, | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
and the ageing thing is going to carry on hitting us, but the | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
fundamental thing that lies behind all of this is the lack of money. I | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
don't want to go kind of ping-pong of political points. I've made my | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
political point. I would plead with you to get on the phone to Theresa | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
May and get her and Philip Hammond to simply ring to departments, the | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
health department and the local councils, the DC LGB and they just | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
have say one thing, run a deficit. Please, spend what you need now and | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
you will not be penalised at the end of the year for overspending. That | :20:05. | :20:06. | |
would solve the crisis now. APPLAUSE | :20:07. | :20:16. | |
The woman in pink. What Theresa May and Simon Stevens are bickering, | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
there are people dying with incurable breast cancer, they can't | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
get the support they need, drugs are being blocked, life-saving drugs for | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
cancer, and it seems to me that the government is in denial about the | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
funding needs. I agree to some extent with what Paul is saying | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
about needing more money. That is indubitably true. But just throwing | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
money at the problem will not solve it. The NHS is a monolithic | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
organisation. One size doesn't fit all. It is no good saying, yes, | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
learn best practice from this trust and go to that trust, but you have | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
different populations with different requirements, different needs, and | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
so to try and force the same pattern of behaviour on hospital trusts | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
isn't going to work. You need more trust lower down, trust with the | :21:14. | :21:21. | |
doctors and nurses, who are on the coal face, but, you know, they are | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
not, they are on the ward, but the doctors and nurses and social | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
workers who are with the communities, looking at community | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
hospitals which are closing, where people have to travel greater | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
distances to come to bigger hospitals. Yes, those hospitals have | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
the fancy equipment which is necessary... Are they closing | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
because of funding or another reason? Various reasons, different | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
in different areas. A lot of it is you are saying, it is better that we | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
have this specialised maternity care it, so we are going to close these | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
two cottage hospitals there, but if we could have them both, have it | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
all, you know, Utopia. Let's hear from the woman there. I think a way | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
to get money back to the NHS is to start charging people for not | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
turning up to appointments. I got a text message the other day to say, | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
this is the reminder of my appointment and it costs the NHS | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
?100 for people who don't turn up. Every time I for an appointment, | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
there are always signs to say how many people and turned up but I | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
think it is a disgrace and that is one way for the NHS to get their | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
money back. OK. You, sir, in a blue shirt. Is this a result of five to | :22:39. | :22:47. | |
six years of austerity and tax cuts, the fact we are talking about this | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
now? Shouldn't we, instead of... APPLAUSE | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
Instead of talking about cutting corporation tax, shouldn't we be | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
talking about adding 1p or 2p in the pound to my tax bill that would help | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
to fund the NHS, social care, schools and everything in the public | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
sector? Don't you think, Mr and Mrs politician from whichever party, we | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
have it the public sector to hard over the last six years? Arron | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
Banks. Well, let's start with the principle that most hospitals I have | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
been to, I think are pretty efficiently run, and I don't think | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
it is the people working in the hospitals. There is some top-down | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
management but clearly it is in crisis on funding. There is a lack | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
of money in the NHS and that sits at the heart of the problem for | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
government. It goes to the wider principle of the government should | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
do less and it should do what is really important well. I would agree | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
that there is a humanitarian crisis of whether it is that is a question, | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
but it is definitely a crisis. Unless we put the necessary cash | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
into it, I think it will get worse and worse. Is there any chance you | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
may relent on this business of saying the NHS has got any money -- | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
enough money now, we set aside enough? We did put in an extra 400 | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
million for particular winter pressures that come up every winter | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
season. But they are clearly not enough. If you look at the sums of | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
money overall you have had in... The raw figures for 2015-16, the NHS | :24:29. | :24:36. | |
budget was 98.1 billion. 2020-21, it will be 119.1 billion. It is going | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
up, and it is continuing we only do that, in response to the gentleman | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
who just spoke, because the economy is continuing to grow and generating | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
the funds that we can distribute to public services, and corporation tax | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
revenue has gone up. There was a request from Simon Stevens for more | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
money in the next two to three years. He asked for it in a | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
Parliamentary committee. You're not giving it, so there is a clay | :25:07. | :25:08. | |
difference between what the expert says and what the politician says. | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
Simon Stevens is independent. The Government made the boss of the NHS | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
an independent body separate from ministers precisely so he could act | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
as an independent advocate. He did. He also Paul, which you didn't say | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
is that when the Government made its announcement about NHS spending, he | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
welcomed that warmly, said that his concerns had been listened to, had | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
asked for the extra spending to be front loaded which is exactly what | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
we have done. If I can just - Monica made an important point about | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
different patterns needed in different parts of the country. | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
Rural and urban, it's going to Sarah vicious it's why the reform plans | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
that are being taken forward within the NHS are being locally driven | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
rather than being imposed top-down. But you know that the NHS and social | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
care work hand in hand. You cannot keep cutting billions of social care | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
in Local Government and then think extra funding in the NHS is | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
sufficient. You cannot cut down training places and then say we | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
haven't got enough nurses and doctors to recruit in there. Actions | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
have consequences. You are quite right, you started to move towards | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
funding the NHS, but, as you're cutting the rest, you are creating a | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
crisis and a long-term position which will just get worse. What are | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
the cuts you are talking about in care in the community, council care, | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
what scale are you talking about? Oh I think it's significant, ?19 | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
billion since 2010 taken out and you have cut the training places for | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
staff. The two just will make the situation worse. Also David, you | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
talked about the ?400 million which in the scheme of the NHS is a drop | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
in the ocean. It's a week's worth. Just under a week's worth. The man | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
in orange in the centre, let us hear from you and then woman next to you | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
This crisis isn't new, it comes around like Christmas, ofry year. | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
This Government and successive past Governments have continually failed | :27:21. | :27:22. | |
the British public. APPLAUSE. | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
Action is required. OK. What would you have? More spending? Higher | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
taxes? It's like pouring money at the top of the funnel, are you sure | :27:32. | :27:39. | |
it's going to come out at the bottom and reach where it's needed? The | :27:40. | :27:47. | |
woman next to you? I agree with the woman up there. You can tell me | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
there is a crisis, but actually do something about it. I also think | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
it's not a case of let's throw money at it because that's just quantity | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
of money, where's the quality going, so I also agree with Monica, don't | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
just throw money at the NHS because how long is that going to last until | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
the next crisis? Can I just take you back. I was a Health Minister under | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
Blair. When Blair said we are going to increase the GDP percentage | :28:13. | :28:19. | |
spending, we increased the places, created NHS Direct and changed the | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
model and you had a period of probably about ten years when the | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
NHS was not the topic of Prime Minister's Question Time and it has | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
returned to that topic because it's deteriorating again. | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
APPLAUSE. I can remember news headlines when | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
you were with Tony Blair as a Health Minister visiting a big hospital | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
with crowds of angry patients outside. There have been crises, | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
pressures under Governments of all parties, but it's got to be a | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
combination of the increased spending that does depend on the | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
productivity and growth of the economy at the end, but also a | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
flexible, locally driven approach to local reforms and it will need some | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
reconfiguration of services in some areas. My area, we used to have | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
cardiac and stroke unit treatments at both the local hospitals. Now | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
they've been closed, they have been centralised at one of the hospitals. | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
My constituency hospital lost out and I was quite miffed about that, | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
to put it mildly. Actually, the outcomes for patients from having | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
specialist stroke and cardiac units... David, if you start... More | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
people are living and making complete recoveries from strokes so | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
we shouldn't decry... So all these complaints are without any basis? | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
No, they are not. There is a ground for complaint? | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
Where there are pressures they have to be addressed. | :29:59. | :30:05. | |
And where there are cases of bad treatment, which in an NHS treating | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
millions every day, there are bound to be some, then those need to be | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
investigated. Bad treatment has not been in the headlines this week. It | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
is absence of treatment, because of absence of money. What is it about | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
the evidence that you refuse to confront? | :30:26. | :30:25. | |
APPLAUSE That money is needed to train more | :30:26. | :30:35. | |
people. We need more radiographers, more | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
midwives, more nurses, we need more assistant nurses, what used to be | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
state enrolled nurses. We need more people actually there, and then you | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
could keep the smaller units going. Yes, have a really skilled people at | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
the big, fancy, flashy places, but you need the filtration. This | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
business about, we have a responsibility, Jeremy Hunt was | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
saying, you know, you should not just trail to A if your perch your | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
finger, but we need there to be more people there who are trained to say, | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
right, you are really badly hurt. Are you shocked by the way things | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
are at the moment? I am shocked. You think there is a genuine public | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
worry? Arron Banks. I am a successful businessman. If you | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
starve a business of working capital and cash, you end up making bad | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
decisions for the wrong reasons. I think we are in danger where it is | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
being starved for cash. You have enough money to park ?2 billion in | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
the World Bank pending the fact that we can't spend enough money quickly | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
enough on the aid budget, but we are starving the NHS of cash. We have to | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
start working out our priorities. Is it a priority to spend 12 billion | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
that is misappropriated by foreign governments, or spend money on the | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
NHS for people in this country? APPLAUSE | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
Natalie, who asked the question, what do you make of the answers? | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
I think everybody did not answer the question. My question was is she | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
wrong to reject the claims, and she is, in my opinion. We can all get | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
hung up on the semantics and the wording, is it a humanitarian | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
crisis, but it is a crisis, whatever you put before that word. I would | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
argue that yes, Syria and Aleppo is a humanitarian crisis, but are those | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
people suffering any greater than the person lying on a bed in a | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
hospital corridor, dying, without the treatment they require? Is there | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
suffering any less? There is no hierarchy of suffering. The fact is, | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
it needs to be sorted. I have children and a grandparent who rely | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
on the NHS, and the fact that they do not receive the care they need in | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
a timely manner angers me, to be fair. | :33:08. | :33:08. | |
APPLAUSE I work with people who rely heavily | :33:09. | :33:19. | |
on health and social and there is a crisis. | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
Those sort of people don't have a luxury of time to sit in A waiting | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
to be seen. I think we should be moving on to work together. This is | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
a clarion call for everyone to work together to try and transform the | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
services. The government has a five-year plan. Frankly, we don't | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
have time for that. Something needs to be downright now for these | :33:44. | :33:51. | |
people. A last word to you, David. I describe both how the money is | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
going, but also in response to the lady in the front row and to Monica, | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
look at the figures. There are now nearly 11,500 more doctors than in | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
2010, nearly 5000 more nurses and midwives, and those NHS staff are | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
treating more people, year-on-year, for different conditions than they | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
used to. That is a tribute to them, and they are doing it because the | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
money is being put in. I agree about the need to provide a means at A | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
for differentiating between those who do need the Accident Emergency | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
service and those who need some other kind of treatment or advice. | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
There are some NHS areas that are doing that effectively. I do think | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
there are some parts of the country that can learn from success | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
elsewhere. The NHS itself is saying they think perhaps 30% of people who | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
go to A would be better going through some of -- some other path. | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
That seems true from international evidence of other industrialised | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
countries. I can't quite get a handle on whether you are saying | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
that the complaints here and the things Jeremy Corbyn said in the | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
House of Commons are justified, or whether it is making politics | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
against your government? I think it is perfectly accurate to say that | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
the NHS at the moment is experiencing some severe pressures. | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
Those are partly the short-term ones of winter, which is always worse, | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
but this winter is turning out to be particularly bad with some | :35:29. | :35:30. | |
persistent viruses that are taking more people to hospitals. But also, | :35:31. | :35:38. | |
there is what Arron and Monica talked about, the fact that we have | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
an ageing population and therefore there will be an increase in demand. | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
It's great, people are surviving, living for longer, living | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
independently for longer, just as it is great that medical science is | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
producing more drugs and treatment. The way we keep up with it is to | :35:57. | :36:05. | |
continue to spend more, which this government is committed to do, but | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
which depends absolutely on the health and vigour of our economy. It | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
is to secure reforms that make sure the best, most successful practices | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
are followed, and it is to integrate social care and health care. You | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
keep saying the economy is going very well, so the man who said he | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
would pay an extra 2p on his income tax... The economy is continuing to | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
grow, but this is a world in which there are many economic risks. It is | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
a world in which we are still to pay off the whole of the deficit we | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
inherited. We are about two thirds of the way on that task as it is. So | :36:45. | :36:52. | |
you can never be complacent. That deficit continues to grow. You have | :36:53. | :37:02. | |
got the deficit down by destroying the NHS. Thank you! | :37:03. | :37:03. | |
APPLAUSE No, we got the deficit down while we | :37:04. | :37:12. | |
have increased spending on the NHS year-on-year. | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
Who are you shaking your head at? The Jeremy Corbyn lookalike on the. | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
I hope Jeremy Corbyn is not watching. I would not want him to be | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
insulted that he looks like me. I just think that what we really need | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
to look at... I'm a Conservative, but I believe we need to look at | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
huge reforms within the NHS to make it sustainable. Because to say each | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
year we will give an extra 10 billion, all of this extra money, | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
don't we actually need to start having a proper debate about | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
structural reforms towards health in this country? I'm sorry to those | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
with your hands up, but we have to go on because we have 20 minutes | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
left, and a question from that Peters. Is restricted access to the | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
single market a price worth paying for drastically reducing | :38:09. | :38:20. | |
immigration? I would come to you, David, but you have been speaking a | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
lot. Paul Mason. I want us to have the maximum possible access to the | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
single market because although I thought a lot of what the Treasury | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
and the Bank of England said was politically manipulated during the | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
Brexit debate, I voted reluctant Remain. I wanted nothing to do with | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
the way George Osborne manipulated those reports. But what the Bank of | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
England said is that we would have a hard Brexit in a chaotic Brexit, | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
which is what the former ambassador to Europe feared when he resigned. | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
If we have a chaotic Brexit, we will be wiping out all of the growth we | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
have made in the last ten years. It will be a disaster. So I want the | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
maximum continuity. I think we have to accept the Brexit vote. We are | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
leaving Europe. Get over the denial, find some positivity in it, even if | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
you didn't like it. That is true. We start with the economy and then we | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
say to people who voted Brexit because they don't like migration, | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
we will do as much as we can to address the problem is that you are | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
bothered about. But if you think Britain is suddenly going to become | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
Trump style closed to foreigners, it can't be. That also would be very | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
bad for our economy. I want to get away with the minimum amount of | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
change to free movement that we need really to be able to win back | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
consent among the British people for an open and high migration and | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
highly tolerant economy, such as the one I think all of us really want. | :39:51. | :39:52. | |
APPLAUSE What did Jeremy Corbyn, who you | :39:53. | :40:04. | |
support and admire, mean when he said this week that the Labour Party | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
is not wedded to freedom of movement as a point of principle, but nor do | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
we rule it out? I can't make head or tail of that. | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
It's simple. Simple! Many in our party and who support us are wedded | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
to it as aprons are poor. It is a principle of the European Union. | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
Once you are outside the European Union, the have to decide if you're | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
going to fight for it forever. Corbyn and the people around him are | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
saying, once we go to negotiations, we will not be saying that our red | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
line is freedom of movement. It is not a principle of socialism, it is | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
part of a treaty we signed. However, because of Corbyn's position, and my | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
position, the economy comes first. I am willing to layout a series of | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
things we would try and do on migration, maybe free movement above | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
a certain salary, maybe for public sector only. I want a debate about | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
this because many people voted against it. A lot of people who | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
supported Arron's party. I want to talk to them. They have a duty to be | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
listened to. But when we go to negotiations, we have to start from | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
the economy, get what we can to satisfy the British people and | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
reassure them on migration. And that means, to be honest, on the day we | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
leave, free movement as we know it will cease. During the whole | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
campaign there were two things which both sides absolutely agreed on, and | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
that was, if we vote leave, we will leave the single market. No, they | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
didn't. I didn't agree with it and I was on a side, so how can you say | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
that? People voted on what the official side said. No, they didn't. | :41:51. | :42:03. | |
What I'm saying is that you are deluding the audience deliberately. | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
Let the audience decide whether they are being deluded. Both sides said a | :42:09. | :42:19. | |
vote to leave, whether you want on the Remain scythe or believes macro | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
side, the campaign said that would mean leaving the single market. The | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
single market is a trading arrangement of 31 countries which | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
say you have to comply with the same set of laws, you have free movement | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
of people, money, capital and services, and you also won't have | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
control over your borders. So the official vote Leave campaign said we | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
want to take control of our borders, our trade policy and our laws. If we | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
now say that Brexit means Brexit, you cannot remain a member of the | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
single market and not have control over your borders, have control over | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
your laws and control over your trade. You can. Isolating ourselves | :42:59. | :43:09. | |
from the single market might not matter. Over half of immigration | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
into this country comes from outside the EU, so Brexit, no Brexit, single | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
market, no single market, these people will still come in. No one | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
from the Leave side, not even Nigel Farage and Arron Banks have said | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
they will stop migration altogether. We will still have migration from | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
the EU, even if it is vetted. But we risk isolating ourselves from our | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
biggest trading block. For me, for relatively little gain. Even if you | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
do one less migration, more will still come from outside. For me, | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
Britain is on the verge of cutting off its nose to spite its face. For | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
me, we are playing a very dicey game. You are shaking your head. I | :43:52. | :43:59. | |
was an ardent Remainer and I led one of the teams here in Solihull. I | :44:00. | :44:06. | |
realise now that we are out, OK. The point is, I think there is a fiction | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
being created between membership and access. The United States, China | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
have access to the single market yet are not wedded to the free movement | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
principles. We can still have access and yet have control of our borders. | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
This fiction that is being created by the EU is going to cause problems | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
when we get to the negotiating table in March. David Lidington, when you | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
were working with David Cameron in the run-up, you said these trade | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
agreements were going to take six, seven, eight years and counting. It | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
is massive, what is at risk. Do you still take that view? | :44:49. | :45:00. | |
I'm with the gentleman in the blue jumper. I campaigned very hard for a | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
remain vote. I was hugely disappointed by the result. But if | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
you call yourself a democrat, you have to accept that result. What we | :45:10. | :45:17. | |
now have to do as a Government, as a country, is to negotiate hard for | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
the best possible deal for people of Britain but also part of our | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
argument saying we want there to continue to be a really close | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
working partnership between the UK and what will continue to be our | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
closest neighbours amongst the European countries. Now, part of | :45:40. | :45:48. | |
that should, in my view, involve as much, not just access to, but | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
freedom to operate within the European market for British | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
companies and, for that to happen on a resick Rick Al basis for European | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
countries here as well, I think it was also clear from the referendum | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
that very many people who voted to leave did so thinking in terms of | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
the immigration debate and trying to re-establish national immigration | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
control. That's what I found on the doorstep when talking to leave | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
voters again and again. I think it's clear from the result that freedom | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
of movement as it currently exists cannot continue as before. But | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
again, we need to find a way that also respects the rights of the | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
European citizens who've come here, lived here lawfully, worked, lived | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
and paid taxes and doing a job their employers value, and the rights of | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
British people living in the other countries as well. | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
Aaron Banks? Of course every country in the world | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
has access to the single market. It's a kind of fallacy. In terms of | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
the actual single market, I think you mentioned the control of | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
immigration, the fact that the Government's utterly failed to | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
control non-EU immigration is not a reason not to do it. I mean, you | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
have rules, you have regulations. I mean, the idea that Theresa May, by | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
the way, is going to do a deal with Europe, is laughable. David Cameron | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
went to do a deal, came back with absolutely nothing, I mean | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
absolutely nothing! And pushed us into a referendum. | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
Yes, well I'm sorry you are against democratic votes, but that's the way | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
it goes. But the fact of the matter is, you've got Marine Le Pen being | :47:30. | :47:38. | |
elected, Gert Vealeders and the EU hasn't budged an inch. This idea | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
there is going to be negotiations, it's laughable. So, you know, you | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
are saying we are going to get a wonderful deal, we'll do the best, | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
there is no doing the best, it is what it is, we have to leave the | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
single market and trade with the rest of the world. | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
APPLAUSE. You? Brexit means Brexit and I think | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
I agree with Gisela that there are two parties in this negotiation and | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
Aaron's just picked up on the point that if the EU's position would be | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
if we want to trade with them, we have to apply with, or comply with | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
their rules and regulations and they are probably not going to budge. Is | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
the rather than have this ongoing debate about hard Brexit, it's not | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
our choice. Ultimately, it will be the EU, whether we have a hard | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
Brexit or soft Brexit because of their rules and regulations. Now we | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
voted on immigration, to get our laws back into our country and, on | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
that basis, if that is going to happen, by definition, we are going | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
to be outside of the rules and regulations and therefore we need | :48:47. | :48:49. | |
the trade agreements to be in place when we do leave. | :48:50. | :48:57. | |
Monica? Coming back to the question of restricted access, is it a price | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
worth do paying to reduce immigration. I think that we should | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
not be looking to reduce immigration. From the perspective of | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
the sector in which I work, which is the university sector, research, | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
innovation, we need people coming to us from Europe, from America, from | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
China, from the whole world, because we don't have enough skilled people | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
in this country to fill the jobs that we need. There are not enough | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
engineers being trained in the whole of Europe to actually fill the | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
engineering jobs that are required. There simply aren't enough. And so | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
if we restrict people coming into this country, we are going to | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
restrict the people who're working and paying taxes and helping to | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
build our economy, helping to innovate and helping to design. We | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
are also going to restrict our own people who want to travel abroad, | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
travel to America, travel to other countries within the EU and beyond, | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
we are preventing them from having the opportunity to do that, learn | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
new skills and then bring them back to this country. Very briefly, are | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
you reconciled? APPLAUSE. | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
Are you reconciled to the Brexit vote? I am not reconciled. I'm a | :50:22. | :50:29. | |
good democrat but I'm completely unreconciled, I've felt sick every | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
day since I woke up on June 24th. APPLAUSE. | :50:35. | :50:44. | |
It's funny because I've had a sense of liberation every day since the | :50:45. | :50:46. | |
vote so there we go. APPLAUSE. | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
All right. You want another referendum? Sorry? Do you want | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
another referendum. Have another go. I would like one, yes, because I | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
don't believe that we were given if correct information at the time -- | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
the correct information at the time. APPLAUSE. | :51:04. | :51:10. | |
I don't want to be accused of being, you know, a Remaining moaner or | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
whatever, but I feel that at the time we were not given... Sounded | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
like one! I'm not moaning, I'm making a statement. We have five | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
minutes left. I would like to take one more question which came up this | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
week and I think we have just got five minutes to talk about it, a | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
question from Claire Rex? Should there be a maximum wage cap? Should | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
there be a cap on wage salaries as was being talked about by Labour? | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
Paul Mason? Yes, there should be but it won't solve the problem on its | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
own of what we are trying to do here. We've got a situation in the | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
world, not just in Britain, where the rich get richer because they're | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
able to use their assets which rise in value in a way that ordinary | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
people's assets which is a house you ways basically don't own and a car | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
you basically don't own just can't. Now, taxation as has to change. Big | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
official bodies like the OECD think-tank based in pairs well | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
resourced are coming around to the idea that we have to do something, | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
otherwise we'll end up with Downton Abbey-style levels of inequality and | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
it's not just about how much money you have in the bank, it's about the | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
life chances of your children. If you can't afford private school or | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
private medicine when the state system is falling apart because the | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
rich are not paying their taxes, there becomes a social apartheid. So | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
yes I would like to see a 20 times cap from the lowest to the highest. | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
But the average rich person knows how to get around that. You know, | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
David Cameron's dad had all these off shore accounts and all of that, | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
they know how to get around it so we need to close down the tax havens. | :52:57. | :53:03. | |
All right. Aaron Banks? In a system where 1% of the population owns 50% | :53:04. | :53:10. | |
of the the wealth of the country is not capitalism, it's been replaced | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
by something more sinister. I find myself agreeing with Paul but I | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
don't agree the cap is the right way of dealing with it. Some sort of | :53:19. | :53:26. | |
aggressive tax system that basically penalises what I would call unearned | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
wealth that hasn't been earned through the merit of what you are | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
doing seems to be to me wholly sensible. It's worse in the States | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
although they have learnt how to give money more effectively than in | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
this country. I don't agree with the wage cap but I do think there has to | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
be some fundamental rethinking of capitalism, how it works and this | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
kind of corporatism that's kind of replaced it that's insidious and | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
very dangerous. David Lidington? The answer to the questioner was no, we | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
have tried in the '70s in particular to put caps and regulations on | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
wages. It didn't work. But I do think there is a genuine issue | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
behind that question. For once, and I did agree with partly with what | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
Paul said, because I think there is a need for action on tax havens. | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
Let's not kid ourselves that that can be done in one country, that | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
needs global agreement when money can be moved around on the click of | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
a mouse. I think that we do need to have greater transparency from | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
companies about what they're paying the top people and I do think that | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
shareholders, particularly corporate shareholders, need to hold the high | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
paid to account. What narks a lot of people is, when you see a company | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
doing really badly, yet the money paid out to the bosses of that | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
company seem Toscary on going up year on year. Did you support David | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
Cameron's idea of a 10-1 ratio from top-to-bottom, were you behind that? | :55:06. | :55:12. | |
It wasn't my idea, but I agreed with it, yes. So why didn't it hatch? | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
Because we were not saying that that would be something imposed by law, | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
but it should be imposed by way of policies. He's in charge of the | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
Public Services. Public Services have a lot of autonomy. The other | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
thing that I want to say in response to what Paul and Monica said is | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
that, if you actually look pat what's happening in the UK at the | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
moment, the richest 1% are paying 27% of income tax at the moment, the | :55:42. | :55:47. | |
highest share that there's ever been paid by that top 1%. That's | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
irrelevant. And we need to maintain a tax regime that ensures people do | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
pay their fair whack in terms of tax and don't try and squirrel it away. | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
I agree about progressive taxation. I don't think a wage cap is | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
workable. I think what narks people is when they see great big | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
corporations like Amazon and Google getting away with paying no tax in | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
this country or hardly any tax... APPLAUSE. | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
Unfor Natalie, if you are wealthy, you can employ a train of | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
accountants and tax people who'll explain how you can get around the | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
tax laws. I think we really have to go for fair taxation, fair pay, fair | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
taxation and make sure it's implemented. Jeremy Corbyn says he'd | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
like a high earnings cap and some say it doesn't make sense. Which | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
side are you on? The last Labour Government introduced the minimum | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
wage which they said always better off in work than out. We have not | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
kept up-to-date with increasing that minimum wage to not reduce the gap | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
and you have a progressive tax system on top of that. That is the | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
answer to reduce the inequality rather than just having the top | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
down... We have raised that before. We have got to stop, our time is up. | :57:11. | :57:18. | |
We only have an hour. Apologies to those who had their hands up. | :57:19. | :57:26. | |
We're in Peterborough next week with broadcaster Piers Morgan | :57:27. | :57:28. | |
and the American novelist, Lionel Shriver among our panellists. | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
To come and take part in our audience in Peterborough | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
or London, go to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88. | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 live, the debate goes | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
For us here, it's my pleasure to thank you all very much for coming | :57:46. | :58:01. | |
on to the panel, to thank you for coming here to Solihull to take | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
part. Until next Thursday from Question Time, good night. | :58:06. | :58:36. | |
That I will faithfully execute the Office... | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
And will to the best of my ability... | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
The Constitution of the United States... | :58:44. | :58:48. |