19/01/2017 Question Time


19/01/2017

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Peterborough. On the panel are Chris Grayling, Emily Thornberry, Piers Morgan, Lionel Shriver and Laura Perrins.


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Transcript


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Welcome to Question Time. Tonight we're in Peterbrough.

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The Conservative Transport Secretary, Chris Grayling.

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The Shadow Foreign Secretary, Labour's Emily Thornberry.

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For the Liberal Democrats, Alistair Carmichael,

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former Scottish Secretary in the coalition government.

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The TV presenter and Celebrity Apprentice

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friend of Donald Trump, Piers Morgan.

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And the novelist, author of, among other books,

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'We Need To talk About Kevin', Lionel Shriver.

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As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,

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We had the Prime Minister's speech two days ago about Brexit, and we

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have had a reaction from Europe, which leads to how a first question

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from Lynn Walker. If the referendum was rerun tomorrow, what do you

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think the outcome would be? Alistair Carmichael. Well, we did not make a

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particularly good job of predicting the outcome last time, so forgive me

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if we don't predict it this time. First of all, it is not going to be

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run again tomorrow. But I think there is an issue here, which is

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that of those people who voted to leave, or to remain, there was a

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great deal, a great lack of clarity about what was on offer. I think on

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Tuesday this week it suddenly became a great deal clearer what was on

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offer. Jeremy Corbyn and the Labour Party, remarkably, say it is not a

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hard Brexit. If leaving the single market, leaving the customs union,

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is not a hard Brexit, if walking away from that without a deal is not

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a hard Brexit, then I don't really know what does. You are not asked to

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be an expert but in the light of what has happened since, will people

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be thinking again? What needs to happen if we need to bring back the

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52 and the 40 together and bring a degree of unity back to our country,

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once we know actually what the shape of the deal with the European Union,

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an enormously important trading market, is going to be, at that

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point, this being a process that started with the will of the people

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in a referendum, should be concluded with the will of the people in a

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referendum, once we know what it's going to be. Piers Morgan. I voted

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Remainer, cards on the table, so I'm not particularly happy that we are

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where we are, but we are where we are. And the whole point of

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democracy in a freezer Sidey like ours is that when you go and vote,

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it really matters, it's incredibly important how you vote in elections

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and referendums. -- in a free society like ours. The point about a

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second referendum, this was the second referendum. We have the first

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in the mid-70s and voted to go into Europe. We have now had another one

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to leave Europe. I don't agree with it but we are where we are. So the

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answer to your question should be, don't ask the question. We're not

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going to have another referendum. I say that with great respect, I have

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so many people I know, like with Trump and America, which we will

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come to, this gnashing and wailing and weeping and demands to have

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another election in America, another referendum here because we didn't

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get the result we wanted, is frankly pathetic. We've all got to grow up.

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APPLAUSE Lynn Walker, you asked the question.

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Is it your view that we should grow up, or that people would vote

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differently? I voted Remainer. I am not so much asking for a second

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referendum, more thinking that I think a lot of people voted on one

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issue. If they actually looked now at the whole picture and what they

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have been told since, some people might have voted differently. What

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one issue? Immigration. According to the Prime Minister there were loads

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of issues, when she spoke on Tuesday, she said people voted for a

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different kind of Britain, this, that and the other. In this area

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that was the major issue. Chris Grayling. It wasn't purely about

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immigration, it was about the ability to take our own decisions. I

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campaigned for Brexit, I believed we should leave. The overwhelming

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response from people was that we want to be able to take our own

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decisions. Immigration was a big area where that was the case. There

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is a broad sense in this country that immigration levels were too

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high, people want to manage the number of people who come in the

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future. Not to become a closed door nation, but have some degree of

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control, to limit and set limits on the number of people who come and

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live and work here. But it was also about the ability to take our own

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decisions. As an elected representative, standing on your

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doorstep, saying, please vote for my party, and you say that you don't

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think immigration is under control, what am I going to do about it, if

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my response is, I have no power to restrict it because as part of the

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European Union we have to accept full freedom of movement, you will

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say, that is not good enough. I want you, as my elected representative,

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to do what I want. We couldn't, and people wanted that control back.

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APPLAUSE Labour seems to be in some doubt

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about whether it is even going to vote for Article 50.

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Where do you stand on that? You're Business Secretary said he will not

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vote for Article 50. You are falling apart. Let's take this in stages.

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First, the government has had to be brought to court to ensure that

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Parliament has a vote on Article 50. So we are waiting for the court

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decision. If the government loses it, the government will put

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legislation before Parliament, and then Parliament will need to decide.

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Personally, my constituency voted overwhelmingly to remain, as did I.

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But I am a national politician, Shadow Foreign Secretary, and it is

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my duty to do as instructed by the British public. The public have said

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we want to leave the European Union and my job is to make sure we get as

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good a deal as possible for Britain. That means looking after our economy

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and our jobs first. What about your Business Secretary saying he won't

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vote for it? I haven't spoken for him so I don't know. I can

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understand why some people feel... It fits very different and the --

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difficult league, because we have this representative democracy and

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many people have constituencies which overwhelmingly voted to

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remain, and yet the result of the referendum is to leave. Many people

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will find it difficult to decide who are they representing, their

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immediate constituencies, or the nation? Remember, there was a Tory

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MP who voted to leave, and he said he did not like the way in which the

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Tory party were going ahead with leaving the European Union, so he

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stood down and caused a by-election. This is an issue for MPs to wrestle

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with, but the Labour Party will not be getting in the way of Brexit. We

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will vote for Brexit to be triggered, and that is how it is

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going to be, but we need to make sure we get a good deal. In the

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fourth row. Interesting to hear a couple of the comments, especially

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the second referendum suggestion. I don't think people were particularly

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unsure what we were voting for. I remember the issue of the single

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market being brought up clearly by a number of people, including Cameron,

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Osborne... All the time. And then they pretend we have never brought

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it up before. It was clear. Piers Morgan, you are incorrect, we never

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voted to join the EC. We were put into it without a vote. Leaving that

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aside, do you think the outcome would be different if it was rerun?

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No, I don't think so. I think the people who voted to leave are

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comfortable with their decision. I entirely agree with you. I am fairly

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confident that it would end up being 52 - 48 again. I have yet to speak

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to any Brit who voted in the referendum who would have changed

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their mind. The population is simply entrenched. It has become very

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bitter, I am afraid. But nobody has changed anybody's mind. I think one

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of the reasons, the woman over here said there was always one reason

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that people voted one way or the other, but they were different. I

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think they were all the same. I think that it had to do with a gut

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feeling about the EU that was emotional and did not have to do

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with statistics, or the single market. It was a matter of whether

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the EU made you feel larger and more important and connected, or it made

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you feel oppressed and smaller and Di looted in your identity. --

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dilute it. We had to reason may after a lot of time saying what she

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really wanted, her speech on Tuesday. What Jude you think of

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that? Are you confident? This week has been pivotal in terms of what

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Theresa May has presented. I was a borderline Remainer, probably

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because I couldn't see a clear plan, could not understand what and how,

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so I wanted more of a safety net to remain and use negotiation to better

:10:08.:10:10.

what was a far from perfect European Union. But for me, this week has

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been pivotal in getting some belief and confidence behind the plans we

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have. I think the 52-48 would go to much more than 52 now. The decision

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has been made and we need to get on with it. Piers Morgan, did she make

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a good fist of it on Tuesday? Yes, that is a really good point. After

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her speech, more people would feel more confident about the direction

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the country is taking. One of the problems I have with the Labour

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Party is the completely mixed messages from senior members of the

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party. I am really not sure even now whether the Labour Party, perhaps

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you can clear it up, whether you believe free movement of people

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around Europe can apply in this country, and we still get some form

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of access to the single market, because nobody in your party at the

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moment seems to be prepared to put their head over the parapet and

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Sayeeda Warsi. And these things are really important. I would dispute

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with Lionel, I think immigration is a massive part of this referendum.

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Immigration was part of that equation. I think it was key. Many

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people are genuinely worried about the number of people coming here,

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they felt it was out of control, they felt social cohesion was

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breaking up and they voted accordingly. I say to the Labour

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Party and the Conservatives, what are you going to do about it,

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because we never get the answers? Emily Thornberry, in principle, is

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the Labour Party in favour of immigration, or in favour of

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controlling immigration? We are in favour of immigration, but fair

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rules and managed migration, and we always have been. We are not in

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favour of putting arbitrary limits, not in favour of saying, we should

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have this number of migrants, because that is a load of nonsense.

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But are there too many people coming from the EU to this country? That is

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the question no one wants to answer. It is clear to all of us that

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migration needs to come down and there are a number of reasons for

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that. Let's have a grown-up conversation about it. The reason

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there are too many people coming in is because we have a skills gap.

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Whether it as plumbers, nurses, we have been getting people from Europe

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to fill the jobs because we have not been training enough people

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ourselves. APPLAUSE

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We have also had a lot of employers taking advantage of people.

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When I was last in Peterborough, there were family houses with ten

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people living in them. There was this hot bedding going on, which is

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not as exciting as it sounds. It was people being paid very little money,

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and came over to Britain, were living on very low wages and were

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undercutting the local markets. Do you get a clear message from Labour

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of their view on this? No, because what MLE is describing is a system

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of managed migration, which we need. If we need to recruit skills

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internationally, we should do so. But we should be able to decide what

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number we recruit, how, when and where. When Jeremy Corbyn came here

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about two weeks ago to make his speech, on the day before, the

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Labour Party was briefing that it did not support freedom of movement.

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On the day, he gave the impression he did support freedom of movement.

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If we remain in the single market, as many Labour politicians arguing,

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we have to accept unfettered free movement of people within Europe.

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Emily cannot sit there and say that she is going to have an adult

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conversation and in the next breath say that the Labour Party will not

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stand in the way of Brexit. It is the job of the official opposition

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in parliament to scrutinise government. We know what the

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Conservatives want to do. We know they want to take us out of the

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single market and out of the customs union. We heard from Phillip Hammond

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that they want to make ask Singapore without the sunshine. We will be a

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low tax, low regulation economy. This is going to open the door to

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that. The difficulty is Labour are not in

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power, the Conservatives are. You are not even in opposition. What we

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should be looking at as the opposition is what Theresa May has

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said. I wish her the best of luck and hope she gets everything she

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promises she's going to get that she promised in that speech. She said

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we'd get free access to the single market, we wouldn't be paying

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tariffs, there wouldn't be any red tape, we'd trade freely.

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People have said this is her plan and if that is her plan, she had a

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piece of paper, it had "plan" written on the top of it but it was

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a series of aspirations, there was no plan there, it was contradictory.

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Thank you very much. You didn't answer the question. A question for

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you, Chris Grayling. One of the things that's been reported is that

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the EU wants before they naught on a trade deal, us to pay ?60 billion

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max, something like that to the EU before talks start. Is the

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Government going to negotiate the money we owe to the EU before they

:15:32.:15:37.

sit down and have talks? As far as I can see, there is lots of rhetoric

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around, people saying things about what is going to happen, about

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what's not going to happen. We haven't triggered article 50 yet so

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I suggest we wait to see what happens. You have read what the EU

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leaders have said, before we start talks with you, you have got to

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stump up the money you owe to the club? Shall we see what actually

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happens when we trigger article 50. A lot of things are being said by

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people in Brussels and elsewhere. It depends what happens after we

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trigger article 50. Do you think it will happen? I think we wait and

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see. You have already said that. Is there a bill to pay before we start

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negotiating? I'm not expecting it. Theresa May said we weren't going to

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carry on contributing. Let's leave the discussions until the point they

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start and we've triggered article 50: Doesn't this show the

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foolishness of the threatening tone Theresa May struck on Tuesday? It's

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the worst possible way to get into a negotiation... No, no, no, let me

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challenge you on that. If you want to start a decent negotiation, you

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should be going about it showing that we are going to have

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negotiations between the parting teams. I don't agree with this. The

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reason I don't think that's right. David Cameron went over there - I

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was in Marrakech in Morocco at New Year on holiday. Let me finish. You

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go into the markets there, it's fan, 1500 years old, you start bartering,

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Israil-Lebanoning the kind of guy that goes in the first shop and says

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I love all your carpets and by the way I'm not leaving here until you

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screw me over -- he's the kind of guy. Theresa May said to the first

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guy, I quite like your carpets but I've got a really great offer on

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carpets from this guy called Donald in America and if you don't do me a

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great deal, I'm just going to walk out of your shop and go to Donald

:17:37.:17:41.

and do a deal. We get the point. I think that is a great negotiating

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tactic. The woman in the third row there?

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There seems to be lots of talk about plans and aspirations and

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negotiations. The truth of the matter is, until we are two years

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after triggering article 50, we don't know the kind of country that

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we are going to end up being at the end of this process. There is talk

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about low tax, you know, haven for business, there's the potential that

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by the time we get to that process we could be damaging our union with

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Scotland. There's potential that we are undermining some progress that's

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been made in the peace process between Northern Ireland. So you are

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uneasy about the two years, are you? So my request is not that we have a

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second referendum, but it's about the fact that the Government comes

:18:33.:18:37.

back to consult us again because any of those types of changes to our

:18:38.:18:41.

country are fundamental and they deserve a referendum in their own

:18:42.:18:44.

right. So do you want a referendum after the deal has been done, do

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you? I want to know what the options really, really are, because

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everybody can say, I knew what I was voting for one way or the other. But

:18:56.:18:58.

whatever I ticked last year, I wasn't voting for a low tax haven

:18:59.:19:03.

country, I wasn't voting for Scotland to leave the union. All

:19:04.:19:08.

right. But what would you want, an election, referendum? What would

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satisfy you in terms of the democratic responsibility you feel

:19:12.:19:16.

you have? I would love a referendum and, as a Remainor myself, that

:19:17.:19:19.

would help me if we did then leave, I would feel OK I can go along with

:19:20.:19:25.

this process, we've had two years an I can buy into this now. You, there?

:19:26.:19:31.

We ought to adopt the Scottish way of doing a referendum, keep going

:19:32.:19:35.

until Nicola Sturgeon gets her own way.

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APPLAUSE. You, Sir? I was the vote Leave

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coordinator for Peterborough and I never thought I would say this but I

:19:46.:19:48.

completely agree with Piers. Thank you. Thank you very much! With

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regards to imGration, to say that wasn't one of the main things people

:19:54.:19:57.

were concerned about is ridiculous. The fact that Labour and Liberal

:19:58.:20:00.

Democrats are calling for second referendums or ignoring the fact of

:20:01.:20:04.

immigration mainly because they are worried about losing left-wing

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supporters is absolutely ridiculous. They are democracy deniers, to be

:20:10.:20:14.

honest. One other question still on the Brexit issue from Elizabeth

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Damazer, please? Is Boris Johnson a liability or is he brave enough to

:20:22.:20:24.

say what the rest of us are thinking?

:20:25.:20:27.

Emily Thornberry? I think it's very unfortunate that

:20:28.:20:36.

the Foreign Office is led by Boris Johnson. I think that we should have

:20:37.:20:40.

somebody who is a diplomat and, if we need to be doing negotiations

:20:41.:20:44.

with friends and allies, we should be doing it in a way which is

:20:45.:20:47.

diplomatic and not contrary to our interests. I think the whole Brexit

:20:48.:20:51.

negotiations will be complicated. I think that Theresa May put forward a

:20:52.:20:55.

whole lot of promises, you know, before the public, but actually, it

:20:56.:20:58.

will be a compromise. I don't think it's like buying a carpet. I think

:20:59.:21:01.

it's a bit more like a divorce. I think that you have to keep your

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head and I think you have to continue to talk to one another and

:21:05.:21:08.

you have to be prepared to do a trade-off. I think that if Theresa

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May is going to go to Europe and speak on behalf of the whole of the

:21:12.:21:14.

British public, she should be prepared to have a proper debate. I

:21:15.:21:19.

look back to what happened... We are talking about Boris Johnson. I

:21:20.:21:25.

thought we were. I thought we were. I now want to talk about David

:21:26.:21:29.

Cameron. He came back... No, no, we are talking about Boris Johnson.

:21:30.:21:33.

He's dead and buried, David Cameron, he's gone!

:21:34.:21:35.

APPLAUSE. I don't know whether you noticed. We

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did not have a plan until now. David Cameron specifically told the Civil

:21:41.:21:43.

Service not to look. I'll cut you off because we've got to keep

:21:44.:21:47.

moving. Lionel Shriver. Boris Johnson? I find him rather charming,

:21:48.:21:54.

I confess. APPLAUSE.

:21:55.:22:03.

I'm not sure he's in the right job, partly because people in the UK

:22:04.:22:07.

don't have a sense of humour. Do you think he should be Prime

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Minister? I would send him over to the US. He's one of the only British

:22:12.:22:17.

politicians that Americans recognise. As ambassador? Or just

:22:18.:22:25.

send him? Unlike some Americans, I'm not going to tell the British who to

:22:26.:22:32.

appoint as ambassador. Piers Morgan? I love Boris. He's a character, he's

:22:33.:22:40.

bright, much brighter than he suggests by some things he says. He

:22:41.:22:45.

made a joke about the valed threats coming out of the European Union

:22:46.:22:48.

about how they were going to punish us. It was immediately, as all jokes

:22:49.:22:53.

are in this PC-crazed world that we now have to endure, it immediately

:22:54.:22:58.

became a sickening Nazi taunt at Europe which, of course, the

:22:59.:23:00.

Europeans couldn't believe their luck. This is fantastic, we can now

:23:01.:23:06.

take the moral high ground about Nazis. Weirs, it was fraudulent, it

:23:07.:23:12.

was fake offendedness -- Piers. Of course. Nobody actually was wounded

:23:13.:23:17.

by this joke. APPLAUSE.

:23:18.:23:20.

. Here is what I think about Boris and what I thought about Theresa May

:23:21.:23:24.

this week as well. What they did was a bed of much-needed chest-beating

:23:25.:23:29.

for this country, much-needed belief in Britain again as a country that

:23:30.:23:33.

matters in the world and by contrast, I'm sorry Emily, you are

:23:34.:23:36.

sitting next to me and it feels ungentlemanly but I'll read what you

:23:37.:23:41.

said this week, you warned was now such a small player, it could be

:23:42.:23:46.

swallowed up in trade talks. That kind of defeatest talk, I'm sorry.

:23:47.:23:52.

OK... Let me finish. That doesn't do us any favours at all.

:23:53.:23:54.

APPLAUSE. Boris Johnson... We are not going to

:23:55.:24:00.

go on to that. It's not all about you Emily. He keeps having a go at

:24:01.:24:08.

me! I know. You deserved it. You, there? Sbj a great chap and can take

:24:09.:24:13.

this country forward. He says what a lot of us are thinking and he's got

:24:14.:24:20.

the, can I say the word? What is it? To do it! He can do this country

:24:21.:24:25.

proud and let's put the Great back into Great Britain.

:24:26.:24:30.

And you? Just reflecting on some of the things people have been saying,

:24:31.:24:35.

I think a lot of it is about personal integrity. Some on the

:24:36.:24:38.

panel have said, I voted one way but now because my constituency this, I

:24:39.:24:43.

represent my constituents so now I've given up my beliefs. Now I'm

:24:44.:24:49.

going along with this. It sounds like a populist... So... Do we elect

:24:50.:24:58.

people on personal integrity. Boris is someone whose personal integrity

:24:59.:25:03.

we believe is genuine. And to have people who're genuine and bright -

:25:04.:25:07.

there was a thing against experts being bright and working things out

:25:08.:25:12.

- there is a whole piece there surely about the personal integrity

:25:13.:25:17.

of those who represent us. Otherwise you go down a mob rule route.

:25:18.:25:23.

Alistair Carmichael, does Boris have personal integrity? There may have

:25:24.:25:27.

been an element of synthetic outreach. Like Lionel said, yes.

:25:28.:25:36.

Yes. But it would be fine, ex-politicible if it was a one-off,

:25:37.:25:42.

if this was the first time it ever happened -- inexplicable. The thing

:25:43.:25:47.

that really worried me about this was the lack of outrage that there

:25:48.:25:53.

was genuinely coming from the continent because I think they've

:25:54.:25:56.

stopped being outraged by Boris by laughing at him. At a time when what

:25:57.:26:01.

we really need is a good team pursuing Britain's best interests,

:26:02.:26:05.

he's a distraction. Chris Grayling? Anybody that hopes Boris is going to

:26:06.:26:09.

turn to the grey man spouting official speak is going to be sadly

:26:10.:26:13.

disappointed. He's a great character, very popular figure, but

:26:14.:26:16.

you have to remember something else about Boris. He's a smart guy,

:26:17.:26:20.

speaks multiple languages, he's well versed in International Affairs and

:26:21.:26:24.

I suspect that the overriding sense of Foreign Ministers in other

:26:25.:26:29.

country who is've dealt with him over the last few months, finding

:26:30.:26:33.

out what a sophisticated knowledge he has about the affairs of the

:26:34.:26:37.

world and the knowledge. He's proving really good for us. I will

:26:38.:26:42.

deal with him around the table. Emily Thornberry, I cut you off on

:26:43.:26:46.

your attack. Do you want to have a brief last word? You can take quotes

:26:47.:26:51.

out of context, Piers and you can twist them, but the trues is... What

:26:52.:26:58.

did I... Let her have her say. You have accused me of misquoting. That

:26:59.:27:03.

is not the worst thing in the world. Aboutly Gration -- abrigation of my

:27:04.:27:18.

journalistic integrity. Go on Emily? There were concerns about the effect

:27:19.:27:22.

on privatisation of the National Health Service and people were

:27:23.:27:25.

against it, Trump says he'll have a trade deal with us within weeks.

:27:26.:27:28.

Trade deals don't take weeks and if we are going to get bounced into a

:27:29.:27:32.

trade deal with the US, we have be very careful to make sure that we

:27:33.:27:35.

don't get ourselves bounced into a deal that will not do us any good.

:27:36.:27:39.

If we were having a deal with the United States as part of Europe that

:27:40.:27:44.

wasn't necessary to our advantage... Where were you misquoted in this,

:27:45.:27:48.

I'm lost now. I put nit that context. Did you say we were a small

:27:49.:27:53.

player we'd get swallowed up. Did you say that? We are a small player.

:27:54.:27:58.

We have to be very careful not to get swallowed up. Just to clarify,

:27:59.:28:03.

Emily, you did say what I said you said. Get over your ego and listen

:28:04.:28:08.

to some things I'm saying. It's not about ego. I'm making an important

:28:09.:28:14.

point. It's a really important point. We'll be dog this with trade

:28:15.:28:18.

deals around the world. We need to be conscious of that and we need to

:28:19.:28:23.

make sure, because once a trade deal has been signed, private companies

:28:24.:28:26.

will be going to the British courts and saying there is a trade deal, we

:28:27.:28:30.

demand access to your markets on these terms because that's what's

:28:31.:28:35.

been agreed. We immediate to be careful and these things can't be

:28:36.:28:39.

answered in half a sentence misquotes. I'll leave that and take

:28:40.:28:42.

a point from the woman in the third row from the back, please? I was the

:28:43.:28:47.

person that asked the question about Boris and I don't quite understand

:28:48.:28:51.

what Emily has been saying because it didn't seem to have any relevance

:28:52.:29:00.

to my question. What is your view? I think my view... The question is, is

:29:01.:29:06.

he saying what we are thinking? I think he's very intelligent. My

:29:07.:29:10.

concern is, in the position of Foreign Secretary, should he be

:29:11.:29:13.

making the sort of inflammatory remark that that perhaps was. Your

:29:14.:29:18.

answer to that is what? He shouldn't. I'm inclined to support

:29:19.:29:22.

him anyway. I see, so you want him to stay. Thank you very much.

:29:23.:29:26.

That's clear as mud, your position. But thank you very much.

:29:27.:29:33.

We're in London next week and the week after

:29:34.:29:35.

Another question from Kassim Jaffer, please. Will the world be a more

:29:36.:29:53.

dangerous place from tomorrow when Donald Trump is sworn in as the 45th

:29:54.:30:01.

President? It will certainly be more interesting! And... Yes, probably. I

:30:02.:30:17.

am less worried about what trumpeters domestic league, because

:30:18.:30:21.

that can often be redressed in another administration. -- what

:30:22.:30:26.

Donald Trump does on a domestic basis. I am most worried about his

:30:27.:30:31.

foreign policy. I think he is poorly educated about the world and he is

:30:32.:30:34.

not calculating enough. People are always making so much about his

:30:35.:30:39.

business experience and he is a great negotiator, but I don't see

:30:40.:30:43.

that so far in what he has said in relation to other countries, that

:30:44.:30:50.

kind of calculation. The one China policy is a good example. It is a

:30:51.:31:01.

dumb policy. Tie one is a separate country, a democracy. Don't tell the

:31:02.:31:07.

Chinese. And China does not control it, and the US supports it with a

:31:08.:31:12.

lot of arms. That is the reality, but the US goes along with the

:31:13.:31:17.

Chinese delusion that it is still part of China. Well, you know what,

:31:18.:31:21.

going along with that delusion doesn't cost us anything. So OK,

:31:22.:31:28.

it's a little annoying to have two defy reality like that and to pander

:31:29.:31:35.

to someone's vanity. But if you're going to stand up and say, I don't

:31:36.:31:39.

know, we are going to call your bluff, there actually are two

:31:40.:31:42.

chinas, you have to get something out of it. And the only thing that

:31:43.:31:48.

the United States would get out of it was trouble, so you keep your

:31:49.:31:52.

mouth shut and you go along with it. And that's the kind of calculation

:31:53.:31:55.

that the President needs to make, and I'm worried he's not capable of

:31:56.:32:01.

it. And stuff with China, this is not funny. You don't want to offend

:32:02.:32:09.

their pride. I want to put to you a slightly different point which was

:32:10.:32:12.

that you read the Michael Gove interview with Donald Trump, in

:32:13.:32:16.

which he said Nato was obsolete and he would certainly look at getting

:32:17.:32:18.

rid of the allowance. Can we come to that? My immediate reaction to

:32:19.:32:25.

Lionel is that one of the reasons that Thommo Trump got elected is

:32:26.:32:28.

because he will stand up to China and say, I don't agree with you. He

:32:29.:32:34.

is going to reinforce American power, which is why a lot of

:32:35.:32:36.

Americans like him and voted for him. In relation to Nato, he said

:32:37.:32:43.

the structure of Nato was obsolete. Why? Because he looked at the maths.

:32:44.:32:49.

72% of all the spending of Nato is consumed by the Americans. Of the

:32:50.:32:57.

other 27 members of Nato, only four countries pay their 2% of GDP

:32:58.:33:02.

towards Nato. We are one of them. That means 23 other countries do not

:33:03.:33:08.

pay what they should pay. And Donald Trump is a business guy. He is

:33:09.:33:11.

going, hang on, why are we paying all the money? Where is the

:33:12.:33:16.

contribution from all these people who the moment they have any trouble

:33:17.:33:19.

they come to the Americans and asked us to help. He is looking at it as

:33:20.:33:25.

an obsolete structure that needs to be dragged kicking and screaming

:33:26.:33:29.

into a better deal for America. Frankly, I think he's right about

:33:30.:33:34.

that. Will the world be a more dangerous place? I don't think so. I

:33:35.:33:38.

come back to what he is at his heart. I have known him for ten

:33:39.:33:43.

years and I keep being told I have to call him a monster, because that

:33:44.:33:46.

is what the lemmings have agreed. He is not a monster. He is not an

:33:47.:33:50.

angel, but he is not a monster. He is a very smart business guy who has

:33:51.:33:55.

consistently proven people wrong. At the early stage of his campaign,

:33:56.:33:59.

then he won the nomination when nobody said he could, then he beat

:34:00.:34:03.

Hillary Clinton. We underestimate him at his peril -- at our peril. He

:34:04.:34:08.

will not look on warfare as a good deal but as a massive drain on

:34:09.:34:13.

American resources. He knows that all he has to do to go down as a

:34:14.:34:17.

great, successful President, and very popular if people is this off,

:34:18.:34:22.

is to get American jobs back to Americans from outside America, from

:34:23.:34:25.

the outsourcing that has wrecked the rust belt states. He has to keep

:34:26.:34:30.

America safe, tighten up on immigration and deliver on the

:34:31.:34:33.

things that were the core messages that propelled him to the White

:34:34.:34:37.

House. If he can do that, and I don't think he will be declaring war

:34:38.:34:41.

in the way that Hillary Clinton might have done, one of the great

:34:42.:34:43.

hawks of modern times in America... I say to people about Trump, this,

:34:44.:34:51.

give him a chance. You don't have to like him. He shoots from the hip,

:34:52.:34:54.

says what he is thinking, sometimes goes over the top, but give the guy

:34:55.:34:59.

a chance and judge him on his actions and you might be pleasantly

:35:00.:35:00.

surprised. APPLAUSE

:35:01.:35:06.

I hear what Piers says and I hope he is right.

:35:07.:35:11.

I hope that what Donald Trump has said is not necessarily the person

:35:12.:35:15.

that he is. I think that if it is right that he does not mean he will

:35:16.:35:18.

trample all over the Paris climate change agreement, I am pleased. If

:35:19.:35:23.

he is not going to move the American Embassy to Jerusalem and wrecked the

:35:24.:35:27.

two state solution, I will be very happy. If he is not going to try and

:35:28.:35:33.

undermine the Iranians nuclear deal, again I would be very encouraged and

:35:34.:35:37.

I will judge him by his actions. The difficulty is, if you look at the

:35:38.:35:41.

people he has appointed, that kind of scenes to underline the sort of

:35:42.:35:47.

things that he has been saying. Not to criticise Piers, which is not my

:35:48.:35:51.

job, but when he talks about his journalistic integrity, Donald Trump

:35:52.:35:57.

did not say that Nato had an obsolete structure, he said it was

:35:58.:36:03.

obsolete. Now, our defence is based on Nato and our agreements with

:36:04.:36:07.

America and the other states of Europe. And we need to have Nato and

:36:08.:36:11.

we need to have an American President... Donald Trump wants to

:36:12.:36:19.

continue with Nato, he just does not want America to continue paying an

:36:20.:36:23.

irrationally high amount of money to support everybody else. What we have

:36:24.:36:28.

to do, as Britain, we are America's closest and longest standing friend.

:36:29.:36:33.

We are in a position of some power, authority and influence, and I think

:36:34.:36:37.

we need a Prime Minister who is prepared to say, when necessary, no,

:36:38.:36:44.

Mr President, that is wrong. Donald Trump is half British. His mum was

:36:45.:36:48.

born and raised in Scotland until she was 18. He loves this country.

:36:49.:36:53.

His mother absolutely loved the Queen. If I am Britain, coming out

:36:54.:36:58.

of the European Union, and our biggest purchaser of our exports in

:36:59.:37:03.

the world after the EU is America, and we have Donald Trump saying, I

:37:04.:37:07.

am half British, the most powerful man in the world, I want a deal, we

:37:08.:37:11.

should be tearing the roof down to get it. All right. Listen, the two

:37:12.:37:21.

of you, you've done well, made a big contributions. You've taken up too

:37:22.:37:25.

much time compared with the three people here and the audience. What

:37:26.:37:31.

do your Muslim friends think of your staunch defence of Trump? We don't

:37:32.:37:42.

want any more from Piers. When you butter him up by, please, just be a

:37:43.:37:46.

little nicer, it's not an attack, it's a little love letter to say,

:37:47.:37:50.

you have been a little naughty. Actually I said the Muslim ban was

:37:51.:37:55.

an outrage and he had to withdraw it. Guess what, he has done and now

:37:56.:37:59.

says he wants tighter controls on people coming from terror countries.

:38:00.:38:03.

I agree that you have to judge people by what they do in office.

:38:04.:38:07.

The United States is our closest, most important ally. We have

:38:08.:38:11.

long-standing ties and we should continue to do so and we will work

:38:12.:38:16.

with the Trump administration. Theresa May will go to meet Donald

:38:17.:38:21.

Trump shortly. There are already changes taking place to deal with

:38:22.:38:24.

the incoming administration. If you look at the broad appointments,

:38:25.:38:28.

there is a range of people with different experiences. Some past

:38:29.:38:33.

Cabinet ministers reappointed. We should be optimistic, should engage

:38:34.:38:37.

with the new administration. I don't think the world is more dangerous

:38:38.:38:40.

because of Donald Trump becoming President of the United States. The

:38:41.:38:44.

world is a dangerous place anyway and the trouble will not come from a

:38:45.:38:47.

new administration in the United States, but from appalling things in

:38:48.:38:51.

the Middle East with Isil, for example. We need to work closely

:38:52.:38:55.

with the United States to combat those threats, where the real danger

:38:56.:39:01.

is coming from. I think I can agree with Piers to this extent, and it is

:39:02.:39:06.

that Donald Trump, tomorrow, is inaugurated into an office that is

:39:07.:39:10.

just too important for us and our people not to give him the benefit

:39:11.:39:16.

of the doubt. So we do have to give him the opportunity to show how he

:39:17.:39:20.

governs, regardless of how he campaigned. But he might not be a

:39:21.:39:26.

monster, but Piers, this is a man who thinks it is OK to mock disabled

:39:27.:39:31.

people, OK to marginalise ethnic minorities, he thinks it is OK to

:39:32.:39:36.

talk about women in a way that, frankly, should never have been

:39:37.:39:41.

allowed to happen. We have been through that a lot during the

:39:42.:39:46.

campaign. The question is really what does it mean for this country?

:39:47.:39:52.

The question was for the world, is it a more dangerous place? It is a

:39:53.:39:58.

more worrying place at least. From our point of view, the thing that

:39:59.:40:02.

concerns me is that I think the government's noses out of joint

:40:03.:40:05.

because Nigel Farage has been in their and they have some catching up

:40:06.:40:10.

to do. Donald Trump has said he is going to reinstate American torture

:40:11.:40:17.

programme. We, in this country, have historically shared intelligence

:40:18.:40:21.

with America. We do not share intelligence with countries that use

:40:22.:40:25.

torture. I think his Attorney General said he would not allow that

:40:26.:40:30.

to happen. You have to hope so. It is on the record the people he has

:40:31.:40:34.

appointed have said they will not do it. In the Supreme Court, we had a

:40:35.:40:41.

judgment where MI5 agents in this case were complicit with American

:40:42.:40:45.

rendition of dissidents to Libya. That is the sort of thing that can

:40:46.:40:49.

happen when the special relationship goes wrong. Have you been listening

:40:50.:40:55.

to the hearings? I have not. I saw the woman who has been appointed as

:40:56.:41:00.

the Education Secretary. If you listen to the hearings, you will

:41:01.:41:04.

hear these points are dressed. You may not believe what they say. We

:41:05.:41:09.

have been here before, David, that is the point. I just heard Piers

:41:10.:41:13.

describe Donald Trump as a smart businessman. Let's hear your view.

:41:14.:41:20.

We have seen in this country a smart businessman who is now out on his

:41:21.:41:26.

yacht, leaving BHS workers without a job or a pension. So sometimes smart

:41:27.:41:31.

businessmen can leave a trail of destruction.

:41:32.:41:31.

APPLAUSE You, sir, with the white hair and

:41:32.:41:43.

the spectacles. It's a bit like the referendum. The

:41:44.:41:47.

Americans have voted for Trump, he should be given his chance and he

:41:48.:41:51.

might surprise people. I think he is good for the country. I'm going to

:41:52.:41:55.

move on because we will have plenty of time to talk about Donald Trump

:41:56.:42:00.

as the presidency unfolds. Samantha Hemraj, please. Should the council

:42:01.:42:09.

be allowed to raise tax by 15% for social care? Shouldn't this be

:42:10.:42:12.

coming out of central government budgets? Surrey County Council's

:42:13.:42:19.

leader and Chris Grayling's constituency is in Surrey, said he

:42:20.:42:24.

wanted to raise council tax by 15%, for which he has to have a

:42:25.:42:28.

referendum. He is proposing a referendum because he cannot afford

:42:29.:42:31.

to pay for social care. Are you in favour of this? He should certainly

:42:32.:42:36.

be able to ask the question and it is for the people of Surrey to

:42:37.:42:40.

decide whether he should do it. How would you advise him? There is a

:42:41.:42:45.

question about where responsibility lies in terms of payments. I think

:42:46.:42:52.

the solution for health and social is greater integration between the

:42:53.:42:56.

two. On a micro level it is happening in my constituency. He

:42:57.:43:01.

says he has run out of money and they can't do it unless they raise

:43:02.:43:07.

15%. I think the solution is local integration and local control of

:43:08.:43:10.

budgets. If you centralise everything, you don't get the

:43:11.:43:13.

integration that creates both savings and a better service. As to

:43:14.:43:20.

whether Surrey is doing the right thing, David will have to get up and

:43:21.:43:23.

defend what he is doing. He will have to make the case that he needs

:43:24.:43:27.

to do this rather than bring efficiencies elsewhere and the

:43:28.:43:30.

people of Surrey will decide. What is he meant to do when you have cut

:43:31.:43:37.

170 million of his budget? It is a challenging time for local

:43:38.:43:39.

government and central government. In order to make the books balance

:43:40.:43:43.

and deliver good services and make sure we don't put up your taxes, we

:43:44.:43:47.

have had to take tough, challenging decisions. That is the same with

:43:48.:43:53.

national and local government. David's challenge as leader of

:43:54.:44:06.

Surrey County Council is to explain why it is necessary to do this and

:44:07.:44:06.

let the people of Surrey decide. This is the first council to go to a

:44:07.:44:07.

referendum to put up its tax state, because it says central government

:44:08.:44:08.

is not funding it properly. Are they right?

:44:09.:44:13.

It's a national problem and the Government is totally in denial

:44:14.:44:17.

about this at the moment. APPLAUSE.

:44:18.:44:20.

I was in the chamber of the House of Commons and I heard Theresa May say

:44:21.:44:24.

that the problems with the NHS are "a small number of incidents where

:44:25.:44:28.

unacceptable practices have taken place". I think she needs to get out

:44:29.:44:32.

more. I think she actually needs to see what's going on. The difficulty

:44:33.:44:36.

is, the crisis in social care is what social care and the NHS, you

:44:37.:44:40.

are right to this extent, absolutely go hand in hand together. If you

:44:41.:44:44.

don't look after elderly people in their homes, if nobody comes round

:44:45.:44:48.

to see them until lunch time to get them up or there's nobody there if

:44:49.:44:51.

they fall over, they are going to end up in A which means they'll

:44:52.:44:54.

end up in hospital, then they won't be able to get out because they

:44:55.:44:59.

won't be able to get out again. Of course this is one of the reasons,

:45:00.:45:03.

there are others, as to why it is we are having a crisis in the NHS. For

:45:04.:45:06.

local authorities to have all this money cut away from them and then

:45:07.:45:09.

for the Government to say it's all right, it's all your fault, it's all

:45:10.:45:13.

your responsibility, you can raise council tax and make it up - you

:45:14.:45:17.

can't. The amount of money that's been taken out of social care cannot

:45:18.:45:21.

be made up by raising council tax locally but actually this is a

:45:22.:45:24.

national issue, it's a national crisis and it's about time the

:45:25.:45:31.

Government woke up to it. What would you do where would you find the

:45:32.:45:36.

money? I would never have as my priority when every budget comes

:45:37.:45:40.

forward to keep cutting corporation tax for a start. I do not believe we

:45:41.:45:49.

are a country that cannot afford to have sufficient for resources. You

:45:50.:45:52.

have a child sleeping on two chairs whilst waiting for hours to be seen

:45:53.:45:56.

at A I don't believe we are a country that actually is about that.

:45:57.:46:02.

You are saying corporation tax? Yes. That is a small proportion of tax

:46:03.:46:05.

isn't it? It depends. If we leave the European Union in the way

:46:06.:46:08.

Theresa May is saying we might have to, she's going to cup corporation

:46:09.:46:12.

tax, I think it's ?120 billion over five years. How much would you put

:46:13.:46:16.

it up? I would look again at how it is we can make sure that social care

:46:17.:46:21.

works with health and yes, it has to be that the two are to be integrated

:46:22.:46:25.

and yes, there can be savings made, but I would make sure that we

:46:26.:46:30.

introduced again - I mean do you remember NHS Direct? We used to be

:46:31.:46:36.

able to ring up an expert to speak to for proper advice. I've rung up

:46:37.:46:40.

the alternative, they tell me to go to A, when I get there I say I'm

:46:41.:46:45.

sorry, but I rang the number and was told to get to A immediately. Of

:46:46.:46:49.

course the A are full. You should go to a GP. Yes, and that would be

:46:50.:46:54.

good wouldn't it, but look at the difficulty people have in getting

:46:55.:46:57.

appointments at GPs, that's why they go to A as well. The man in

:46:58.:47:04.

spectacles in grey? Why are we so averse all the time to not raise

:47:05.:47:08.

income tax when our sfruct screaming out for money?

:47:09.:47:15.

APPLAUSE. Alistair Carmichael? Well you think

:47:16.:47:20.

it's bad now, wait until Philip Hammond gets his own way and we are

:47:21.:47:27.

a low tax low regulation country out of the single market. We were going

:47:28.:47:33.

to get ?350 million a week for the NHS, that doesn't seem to be coming

:47:34.:47:39.

any time soon. That's because we haven't left the European Union yet.

:47:40.:47:44.

Oh, hold on, hold on! So is it going to come? Hold on, you said it's

:47:45.:47:48.

because we haven't left yet, is it going to happen? The Government will

:47:49.:47:52.

take decisions about public spending when we have left the European

:47:53.:47:55.

Union. But hang on, you are teasing us. You sat here before the

:47:56.:48:01.

referendum and said it would be ?350 million into the NHS, now you are

:48:02.:48:05.

saying what? What I said at the time, that the Government would be

:48:06.:48:09.

able to take decisions about its priorities when we have left the

:48:10.:48:12.

European Union. That's a fat lot of good. If back pedalling ever becomes

:48:13.:48:21.

an Olympic sport, you have seen a gold-winning performance there.

:48:22.:48:26.

We need a serious conversation about this. I would like to get all the

:48:27.:48:30.

parties together into an Independent Commission, trying to take some of

:48:31.:48:33.

the political heat out of this because frankly, every year it's

:48:34.:48:38.

another year, another crisis. GPs, A, it's going to be mental health

:48:39.:48:41.

the year after that. All we do is shift money around to patch it up,

:48:42.:48:45.

we need to have a sustainable long-term solution.

:48:46.:48:52.

Lionel Shriver? I think we do need to address the issue of corporation

:48:53.:48:57.

tax because there seems to be some economic confusion. I know that it

:48:58.:49:04.

seems sensible that if you take more money then you get more money, with

:49:05.:49:09.

corporation tax that's not the way it works. Ireland lowered their tax,

:49:10.:49:14.

they made money. That's the why we make money. You bring in inward

:49:15.:49:19.

investment. There are more employees, they pay more income tax.

:49:20.:49:23.

That's the why you get money. APPLAUSE.

:49:24.:49:33.

Piers Morgan? In 1948 when the NHS was launched by Labour - I'm going

:49:34.:49:38.

to agree with a lot of what you said Emily - a population of 50 million

:49:39.:49:43.

people, the average life expectancy 66 for men, 71 for women. Today, 63

:49:44.:49:48.

million population, up by 13 million, men are living to 77, 11

:49:49.:49:54.

years longer on average, women to 81, ten years longer. There's the

:49:55.:49:59.

problem. We are living a lot longer. It's a problem if you can't cope

:50:00.:50:04.

with it. The system cannot cope with the extra volume of people coming

:50:05.:50:09.

in. The social care system, which is supposed to mean that people can go

:50:10.:50:13.

in and then be taken care of, is collapsing. The funding for it is

:50:14.:50:18.

being withdrawn. We have a Tory-led council taking on its own Government

:50:19.:50:22.

where its own ministers live and having to humiliate them. We've got

:50:23.:50:27.

front-page pictures of grandmothers on trolleys for 24-36 hours, a

:50:28.:50:31.

four-year-old kid lying on the floor in our hospitals and a Prime

:50:32.:50:35.

Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? It's not good enough. What

:50:36.:50:40.

is the solution? The other part of the equation is, we also have to be

:50:41.:50:44.

accountable. Yes we can beat up the politicians but we have to be

:50:45.:50:47.

accountable. I've been in A on a Friday night, it's like the Wild

:50:48.:50:51.

West in there. We are putting so much extra pressure on the hospitals

:50:52.:50:56.

with a lot of meaningless irrelevant injuries that don't need the

:50:57.:50:58.

treatment, so we have to look at that. I personally would have GP

:50:59.:51:02.

surgeries in every A and I would get the Government to pay for it.

:51:03.:51:07.

Secondly, this is a national issue, not a council, it should be dealt

:51:08.:51:10.

with by the Government, they have got to put more money in. We have to

:51:11.:51:15.

contribute too, through taxation or national insurance. But the National

:51:16.:51:18.

Health Service, go and live in America for a bit like I have and

:51:19.:51:21.

you will see how brilliant the National Health Service actually is.

:51:22.:51:25.

And we need to support it and we need to help it.

:51:26.:51:28.

APPLAUSE. All right, look, a lot of people

:51:29.:51:31.

have hair hands up. I'll come to you but I want to add in this element, a

:51:32.:51:37.

question from Dusan Obradovic, please? Why are we giving away so

:51:38.:51:42.

much money to foreign aid when we are cutting back on vital services

:51:43.:51:48.

at home? We are giving 0.7% of our GDP which is ?12 billion. Chris

:51:49.:51:52.

Grayling briefly, please, then I want to hear from the audience? We

:51:53.:51:56.

have heard about immigration, we have seen the refugee crisis in

:51:57.:52:00.

Europe over the last 12-18 months. If we want to create a world where

:52:01.:52:03.

thousands of people don't cross borders to try to come to Europe, we

:52:04.:52:09.

have to help those countries develop. One of the great successes,

:52:10.:52:14.

understated, is that we are seeing poverty fall in the developing

:52:15.:52:19.

world, literacy rise. The money we spend is all about helping the

:52:20.:52:22.

processes continue and easing the pressures of people coming across

:52:23.:52:29.

borders to get here. Dusan? I agree with Chris what he's saying there.

:52:30.:52:32.

At the end of the day, the money we give out is all coming out of

:52:33.:52:39.

taxpayers' money, I'm sure it is, the people are contributing. At the

:52:40.:52:43.

end of the day, I can understand, but when over the years I've seen,

:52:44.:52:48.

as a young guy brought up here, and see places shut for special needs

:52:49.:52:54.

people and kids, the youth of today haven't got the vital services, the

:52:55.:52:59.

old people as well are being cut back, at the end of the day it's all

:53:00.:53:03.

gone pear-shaped. You think we should cut back on what we do

:53:04.:53:09.

overseas? I've not really gone into the statisticical side, but from

:53:10.:53:13.

what I gather, we've given away ?50 billion in five years in foreign aid

:53:14.:53:18.

and at the end of the day, we talk about the national wealth, the old

:53:19.:53:24.

people. At the same time, you guys are the ones who make these

:53:25.:53:29.

decisions. Don't look at me! The woman at the front? I'm a retired

:53:30.:53:35.

social worker who worked with older people in my last job. I was retired

:53:36.:53:39.

on ill health grounds after years and years and years of excessive

:53:40.:53:43.

stress. I can tell you that the Government's cuts to social care are

:53:44.:53:48.

not funny. What is your remedy? Did you believe the council should raise

:53:49.:53:52.

the money? No, I don't. Absolutely not. Do you think we should cut

:53:53.:53:57.

foreign aid? Absolutely not. For starters, I think there is money

:53:58.:54:00.

there, but I think the Government makes choices about what they do

:54:01.:54:04.

with it. They make choices about whether they change the top rate of

:54:05.:54:11.

tax, for example. We have very, very wealthy - we are a very wealthy

:54:12.:54:15.

country and to suggest we can't look after our people. Food banks created

:54:16.:54:23.

over the years... He's saying... Hang on, say it again because we

:54:24.:54:29.

missed you? Over these years I've seen food banks and you are saying,

:54:30.:54:34.

we give away all our money, why have we got food banks? We haven't given

:54:35.:54:38.

away all our money. Why not have a separate tax system for your people,

:54:39.:54:43.

you pay for all of this, and people who don't want to contribute don't.

:54:44.:54:48.

I may be retired but I still pay my taxes, I can assure you. We are all

:54:49.:54:52.

the same people, people. Let me finish, please. Homelessness in this

:54:53.:54:57.

country, the like of which we have never seen in our lifetimes before,

:54:58.:55:00.

we are seeing that now. Old people who can't get out of hospital, that

:55:01.:55:04.

is one of the problems in the NHS, and I'm sick to death of listening

:55:05.:55:08.

to the Tory party saying, oh, we are doing this and we are giving them

:55:09.:55:12.

extra money - they are not. Chris Grayling, do you want to answer that

:55:13.:55:16.

briefly? All I can say the health care budget is rising year after

:55:17.:55:20.

year after year and the challenge we have with an ageing population, new

:55:21.:55:25.

treatments almost every week, keeping up is a real challenge. You

:55:26.:55:29.

cut 40% from our older social care budget. We are coming towards the

:55:30.:55:35.

end. You, Sir? The debate is shaped wrong, we are here saying we have to

:55:36.:55:39.

cut here and there to get the deficit down and we are not asking

:55:40.:55:44.

those at the top to pay more? ! It's a really important point. We don't

:55:45.:55:50.

sit there saying, how can we afford the tax cuts, but we sit there

:55:51.:55:54.

saying how we can afford paying to just keep people fed and housed. The

:55:55.:56:00.

important point on this is that the amount of tax paid by the wealthiest

:56:01.:56:04.

in our society has risen and Riz none the last few years. The most

:56:05.:56:09.

recent figures on inequality show that inequality in this country, the

:56:10.:56:13.

gap between the richest and poorest is at its lowest levels... Depends

:56:14.:56:18.

how you measure it. Do you hear often the argument that we should

:56:19.:56:23.

cut foreign aid in order to pay for domestic aid, the National Health

:56:24.:56:29.

Service, welfare? Yes, the Daily Mail's been running a campaign about

:56:30.:56:34.

this for some time. I think that we pay 0.7% of our income as a country

:56:35.:56:37.

to develop the developing world because it's the right thing to do.

:56:38.:56:43.

Yes. Place plawz Because it's the right thing to do. And because we

:56:44.:56:47.

are an inter-connectled world. We are an island but we are not an

:56:48.:56:52.

island. But Emily, it's also about choices. Yes. And about doing the

:56:53.:56:59.

right thing. I agree. Some of the stories that anger people about

:57:00.:57:03.

foreign aid, there was a story in the Daily Mail about an Ethiopian

:57:04.:57:09.

pop girl all-girl band backed by ?5 million of UK taxpayers money. That

:57:10.:57:14.

is the kind of figure for that kind of project when people look at

:57:15.:57:17.

grannies on trolleys in our hospitals for two days and they go,

:57:18.:57:22.

this isn't right. That is where I think we have to look at this. You

:57:23.:57:30.

have 30 seconds, Alistair? So you cut it, believe me, there'll still

:57:31.:57:33.

be food banks and people on trolleys. The reason we pay that,

:57:34.:57:36.

it's an international obligation and it goes to help people in other

:57:37.:57:40.

parts of the world who frankly would love to have the problems that we

:57:41.:57:45.

are complaining about today. I don't diminish any of them, but frankly

:57:46.:57:49.

you've got to put this in some sort of context. I would love to have the

:57:50.:57:54.

time to bring more of you in, but our hour is up, I'm afraid.

:57:55.:57:59.

Apologies to those with your hands up.

:58:00.:58:04.

We're in London next week, with among others, the Shadow Home

:58:05.:58:07.

To come and take part in our audience in London

:58:08.:58:20.

or Wallasey, go to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88.

:58:21.:58:26.

If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 live, the debate goes

:58:27.:58:30.

Thank you to our panel and to the audience here tonight.

:58:31.:58:40.

Einstein replaced Newton's theory of universal gravitation

:58:41.:59:16.

with a more accurate theory - general relativity.

:59:17.:59:19.

So, why's my apple falling? Well, it's not.

:59:20.:59:23.

David Dimbleby presents Question Time from Peterborough. On the panel are transport secretary Chris Grayling, shadow foreign secretary Emily Thornberry, broadcaster Piers Morgan, American author Lionel Shriver and the co-editor of The Conservative Woman website, Laura Perrins.


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