26/01/2017 Question Time


26/01/2017

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 26/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

and key Jeremy Corbyn ally, Diane Abbott.

:00:00.:00:20.

The Conservative MP new to the House of Commons in 2015, James Cleverly.

:00:21.:00:25.

The SNP Leader in Westminster, Angus Robertson.

:00:26.:00:29.

Daily Mirror Online writer Fleet Street Fox,

:00:30.:00:31.

And Geoff "I'm the only Conservative-voting comedian

:00:32.:00:38.

As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,

:00:39.:00:56.

Just before we came on air, I had an e-mail from someone saying, please

:00:57.:01:14.

not Trump and please not Brexit. I have two disappoint you. Our

:01:15.:01:18.

audience overwhelmingly want to talk about Brexit and Trump. We start

:01:19.:01:24.

with a question from Kristel Tracey. Should our government turn a blind

:01:25.:01:28.

eye to Trump's controversial policies in the interests of

:01:29.:01:31.

renewing our special glacial chip with the US? James Cleverly. -- our

:01:32.:01:41.

special relationship. The short answer is no, we mustn't turn a

:01:42.:01:47.

blind eye, whether it comes from the President of the United States of

:01:48.:01:51.

America, or anyone else. We are long-standing friends of America,

:01:52.:01:54.

and they are long-standing friends of ours and we have to make the

:01:55.:01:57.

relationship with the elected head of state of that country work. But

:01:58.:02:03.

Theresa May has a reputation for straight talking, telling people

:02:04.:02:08.

perhaps untruths -- some truths that they don't like to hear. And I have

:02:09.:02:14.

no doubt she will have a very frank conversation with the President of

:02:15.:02:16.

the United States of America. But if you are hoping for some Love

:02:17.:02:22.

actually type moment, you will probably be disappointed because as

:02:23.:02:26.

friends and allies, we probably do our criticism in private and

:02:27.:02:31.

supportive comments in public. She did say on the plane to a reporter,

:02:32.:02:36.

haven't you ever noticed, opposites attract. So maybe you are in for a

:02:37.:02:43.

moment. Well, I am confident that the Prime Minister and the President

:02:44.:02:47.

will have a professional and close working relationship. Perhaps not

:02:48.:02:51.

quite as intimate as Tony Blair and George W Bush, but I am sure she

:02:52.:02:55.

will make it work. Let's deal with some of the problems in renewing the

:02:56.:03:00.

relationship. Diane Abbott, what do you think the Prime Minister should

:03:01.:03:06.

do? America is a long-standing ally and whichever party was in

:03:07.:03:08.

government would have to work with them on things on which we agree.

:03:09.:03:12.

But this is not so much a question of turning a blind eye to Donald

:03:13.:03:19.

Trump's policies, it is that we cannot turn a blind eye to his

:03:20.:03:25.

values. This is a man who, even compared with other right-wing

:03:26.:03:29.

Republican presidents, is quite extraordinary. This is a man who

:03:30.:03:32.

talks about grabbing women by the pussy. This is a man who wants to

:03:33.:03:40.

stop Muslims entering the US, all Muslims. And this is a man who says,

:03:41.:03:46.

contrary to everything, the army and the security services know, that

:03:47.:03:52.

torture works. What policies that Trump wants to put forward is

:03:53.:03:58.

primarily a matter for him and the American people. But on our values,

:03:59.:04:02.

I think British values that we should all share, I don't think we

:04:03.:04:08.

should give ground, even to get these so-called trade deals. Some

:04:09.:04:11.

things are not for sale. APPLAUSE

:04:12.:04:23.

Susie Boniface. In answer to the question, no, you

:04:24.:04:32.

don't turn a blind eye, and I hope she is keeping Trump at arms length,

:04:33.:04:37.

and not just out of grabbing distance but genuinely at arms

:04:38.:04:40.

length. We have to go and talk to him, deal with him. There are a

:04:41.:04:45.

million jobs in this country that rely on American firms, and a

:04:46.:04:47.

million jobs in America that rely on Tish firms. The trade is worth

:04:48.:04:53.

billions. Just because there is a slightly crazy man in the White

:04:54.:04:56.

House does not mean we should stop talking to him altogether. We have

:04:57.:05:00.

to keep it going for pragmatic reasons, for the interests of our

:05:01.:05:04.

citizens here and citizens abroad. But you have to consider how history

:05:05.:05:07.

will judge this further down the road. We are stuck in this first

:05:08.:05:13.

week of a fire hose of news, this astonishing stuff that keeps coming

:05:14.:05:17.

out of the White House. We have to think what will happen when it is

:05:18.:05:21.

over. At some point, Donald Trump will either be impeached, he will

:05:22.:05:25.

lose an election in four years, or he will leave after eight years,

:05:26.:05:29.

when he has to go gracefully, as Obama did. How do you think he will

:05:30.:05:36.

go? How is it going to end? I personally think the military will

:05:37.:05:40.

have to chisel his teeth out of the Oval Office desk to get him out. He

:05:41.:05:44.

will not go quietly, it will be ugly. In the long-term, history will

:05:45.:05:49.

look at Theresa May and say, was she a second Maggie, or a second Neville

:05:50.:05:55.

Chamberlain. As simple as that. Angus Robertson. People will reflect

:05:56.:06:00.

on the unseemly way in which she has been keen to be the first foreign

:06:01.:06:03.

leader to walk into the White House and meet President Trump. Every

:06:04.:06:07.

moderate mainstream politician in the world recognises that it is

:06:08.:06:10.

important to have a good relationship with the United States

:06:11.:06:15.

and with the office of the President of the United States. Do you think

:06:16.:06:21.

she should not have accepted the invitation? One moment. Do you think

:06:22.:06:26.

she should have rejected the invitation to go? On the basis of

:06:27.:06:30.

what has been said about torture alone, the Prime Minister should use

:06:31.:06:35.

her leveraged. We are told that Britain has a special relationship

:06:36.:06:38.

with the United States. If it does, I would hope it would be on the

:06:39.:06:42.

basis of two states that do not torture. If the President were to

:06:43.:06:47.

give an assurance that he will not go ahead with what he is actively

:06:48.:06:51.

considering, which is to reintroduce torture as a policy by the CIA, the

:06:52.:06:57.

reopening of black sites, and extraordinary rendition, the

:06:58.:06:59.

kidnapping of people and flying them around the world, if the UK has a

:07:00.:07:04.

special relationship, I would call on the Prime Minister to get an

:07:05.:07:08.

assurance that the US will not go ahead with torture, before meeting

:07:09.:07:12.

the President of the United States. APPLAUSE

:07:13.:07:14.

Let's hear from the audience. First of all, I think that special

:07:15.:07:23.

relationship got damaged so much over the last eight years under

:07:24.:07:26.

Obama that Theresa May has really got to go over and rebuild it. To

:07:27.:07:31.

say that we already have it is completely wrong. We don't have

:07:32.:07:36.

that. To even suggest that she should not go over and start

:07:37.:07:38.

building that relationship, especially when we have to look at

:07:39.:07:43.

future trade deals is just stupid. In your view it was destroyed under

:07:44.:07:49.

Obama because of what? That relationship over the last eight

:07:50.:07:52.

years is, Obama has never been that interested in the British people and

:07:53.:07:59.

British culture, especially. He has never been a fan. Before Brexit,

:08:00.:08:07.

back of the queue. Geoff Norcott. No matter what job you do, what side of

:08:08.:08:12.

the political divide you are, have some empathy with Theresa May that

:08:13.:08:16.

this was in her calendar. I don't think anyone is sitting there going

:08:17.:08:19.

two sleeps until lunch with the Trumps. It is something that she has

:08:20.:08:29.

to do, Brexit or no Brexit. The likelihood of a hard Brexit makes it

:08:30.:08:34.

even more imperative. As the nonpolitician and non-journalist,

:08:35.:08:39.

what would I do? He is notoriously thin-skinned. The idea that you can

:08:40.:08:43.

criticise him off the bat does not seem realistic. Germany are not

:08:44.:08:47.

getting a call back. The best thing they can do is to like his tweets

:08:48.:08:51.

and curry favour. How do you get a seat at the table? If it was me, I

:08:52.:08:56.

would just butter him up, compliment him. I would arrive and say, your

:08:57.:09:01.

hair looks great. Is it me, or is the White House bigger since you got

:09:02.:09:07.

here? If you want somebody to speak truth to power, you have to have the

:09:08.:09:11.

ear of power first. Then, down the line, couple of days, say, just dial

:09:12.:09:17.

it down on the hate speech. Of all world leaders at the moment, I think

:09:18.:09:20.

she is the person that could possibly do that.

:09:21.:09:21.

APPLAUSE Do you think that Putin and Trump's

:09:22.:09:32.

special relationship will supersede Theresa May and Trump's special

:09:33.:09:35.

relationship? That is a very good question. Angus

:09:36.:09:42.

takes a nobly naive position. I adore him for it. But ultimately,

:09:43.:09:48.

President Trump is going to make international relationships he

:09:49.:09:52.

believes are in the best interests of the United States of America. If

:09:53.:09:55.

we are not sat across a table with him, if the Prime Minister is not

:09:56.:10:01.

sat across a table with him, as our primary military ally, our second

:10:02.:10:04.

largest trade partner, making our relationship work, he will look

:10:05.:10:09.

relationships. And it is entirely feasible that one of those

:10:10.:10:12.

relationships might be between him and Vladimir Putin. He already has

:10:13.:10:18.

that. And it is not a relationship I am massively comfortable with. Is

:10:19.:10:22.

she going to come back with a trade deal, Diane Abbott? Susie said that

:10:23.:10:35.

we should not stop talking to him. Nobody is talking about stopping

:10:36.:10:39.

talking. That is exactly what I said at the beginning. But on this

:10:40.:10:42.

question of trade deals, which everyone is using as an excuse why

:10:43.:10:47.

we have two suck up to him, let's be clear, this country has hardly any

:10:48.:10:52.

trade negotiators, echoes most of our trade negotiation is done

:10:53.:10:56.

through the EU. And remember Trump's slogan, America first. We will get

:10:57.:11:02.

trade deals, all right, but what sort of trade deals? Trade deals

:11:03.:11:06.

which will open the NHS to American corporate health.

:11:07.:11:07.

APPLAUSE Trade deals which will drag down our

:11:08.:11:14.

environmental standards. We will get deals, but whether

:11:15.:11:17.

people will like them when we get them is another thing. You are

:11:18.:11:23.

saying that Theresa May should say what they want to hear but that is

:11:24.:11:27.

my problem with her. Be it with Brexit, she is just saying what she

:11:28.:11:31.

thinks we want to hear but not telling us what is happening. She

:11:32.:11:35.

will do it with Trump, go over there and do some toing and froing about

:11:36.:11:39.

what she thinks we should hear but not the decisive. I would like a

:11:40.:11:42.

Prime Minister who is telling me what is going on, where she stands,

:11:43.:11:47.

instead of playing her cards all over the table. If it was you, what

:11:48.:11:53.

would you say? I would be strong on my values. We are not this week

:11:54.:11:57.

country that has to suck up to America. We have to stand for what

:11:58.:12:02.

we believe in, the climate change, anti torture, we can't hide away.

:12:03.:12:06.

But you have a million jobs that depend on him being in a good mood

:12:07.:12:11.

with us. Half of our Trident missiles we rent from America. I

:12:12.:12:14.

would love it if we could go over there and the Prime Minister could

:12:15.:12:20.

go, no, stop, we are Britain, pack it in, we are not going to kiss your

:12:21.:12:26.

big, white, wrinkly bomb. That is enough. Sounds like the kind of

:12:27.:12:33.

language he would understand. I have two agree with the gentleman on the

:12:34.:12:37.

left who spoke about the culture that had been created under Barack

:12:38.:12:41.

Obama. Now we are focusing on the ideas of immigration and Mexico and

:12:42.:12:47.

the wall. Do you not think this culture of apathy was built up under

:12:48.:12:53.

Barack Obama because of his flip-flopping on issues like gay

:12:54.:12:58.

marriage? As an openly gay man, I found it bizarre that a Harvard

:12:59.:13:03.

professor was sitting there, having to, in 2008, have the faculty

:13:04.:13:09.

supporting that kind of human rights. Do you not think he created

:13:10.:13:14.

a culture of apathy in the US that ultimately led to Donald Trump

:13:15.:13:18.

anyway? I am wondering why people that we got George W Bush Mach two.

:13:19.:13:26.

There is one other question on Trump from Charles Harris. If the

:13:27.:13:31.

government policy in the UK is to reduce illegal immigration, why is

:13:32.:13:34.

Donald Trump's wall so controversial?

:13:35.:13:41.

Well, the impossibility of building it. They have already said, there

:13:42.:13:47.

may be some fences. I think that's a good metaphor. I think that, you

:13:48.:13:53.

know, the idea, I mean, I'm sure we will get onto this, I voted Leave,

:13:54.:14:00.

and I think there is a dialogue around having controls on

:14:01.:14:04.

immigration and there is a rampantly xenophobic dialogue that Donald

:14:05.:14:07.

Trump is entering into. I think what the war has become is a metaphor for

:14:08.:14:13.

a state of mind with him. -- the wall. I think that's the problem. If

:14:14.:14:18.

it was just one of the other, but the whole package with Donald Trump

:14:19.:14:21.

is he is alarmingly xenophobic. It's not just about relationship with

:14:22.:14:30.

Mexicans. It's about stopping all Muslims going to the United States,

:14:31.:14:35.

and what worries me is that we are seeing a very intolerant language

:14:36.:14:42.

coming into politics. Whoever was responsible at whatever point, it

:14:43.:14:47.

isn't a new thing, unfortunately, xenophobia and narrow-mindedness,

:14:48.:14:49.

but there is a lot of it in politics. It seems to me, when we

:14:50.:14:53.

are talking about the policy of Donald Trump or the debate on these

:14:54.:14:57.

islands, I think, regardless of where we stand, in our case on

:14:58.:15:01.

different sides of the argument on Brexit, I think it holds all of us

:15:02.:15:06.

to make sure that the language we use reflects the values that most

:15:07.:15:11.

people share, which is that we are welcoming of people, especially who

:15:12.:15:14.

have come here in need, and just to reflect on this in a second in this

:15:15.:15:20.

city, 1 million people who live here come from other European countries,

:15:21.:15:24.

and they work in our NHS and they work in our private sector. They are

:15:25.:15:29.

our neighbours, they are taxpayers, and the language that I sometimes

:15:30.:15:34.

hear about people, and then themselves feeling that they are

:15:35.:15:38.

being told to go home, I think it is something that should give all of us

:15:39.:15:42.

concerned, regardless of where we sit on the Brexit question or Donald

:15:43.:15:45.

Trump. APPLAUSE

:15:46.:15:56.

The man next to you. Sorry, is Theresa May in a position to

:15:57.:16:00.

negotiate with Trump? A lot of things have been mentioned. What

:16:01.:16:04.

about Trump's green light given to Israel, whereas in Palestine a lot

:16:05.:16:09.

of homes have been demolished, and they are using the illegal

:16:10.:16:14.

occupation, land is a quiet on the illegal occupation, to build 4500

:16:15.:16:20.

homes. -- land acquired. Are you saying that because of that Theresa

:16:21.:16:26.

May shouldn't to him? Theresa May isn't in a strong position to speak

:16:27.:16:30.

to him because we have got Brexit and she is looking for a trade deal

:16:31.:16:33.

with Trump. The gentleman mentioned that she will speak to him and tell

:16:34.:16:37.

him about the British values, but what about, will she speak to him

:16:38.:16:46.

about the Palestinian cause? I don't have the running order of what they

:16:47.:16:50.

are going to discuss, and it would be impossible in any one meeting,

:16:51.:16:56.

particularly an introductory meeting, to cover the full gamut of

:16:57.:17:00.

home affairs, but there is a lovely bit of transcription from when the

:17:01.:17:06.

United States of America sent troops to Granada, which was actually

:17:07.:17:13.

sending American troops on to British soil, to all intents and

:17:14.:17:17.

purposes, and got a dressing down by Margaret Thatcher. There is a

:17:18.:17:19.

wonderful transcription of what was basically a one-way hairdryer

:17:20.:17:25.

conversation, where Margaret Thatcher told President Reagan in no

:17:26.:17:28.

uncertain terms how displeased she was. That is what a special

:17:29.:17:32.

relationship means that it doesn't been one-way traffic. It means that

:17:33.:17:36.

we as the UK can speak frankly to the United States of America through

:17:37.:17:40.

its president. I think that's important. You remember that, when

:17:41.:17:47.

Winston Churchill met Truman and started talking about... I wasn't

:17:48.:17:51.

there. You will have read about it. Maybe not. When they started talking

:17:52.:17:56.

about the special relationship, Truman said, to Churchill's dismay,

:17:57.:18:01.

we will pass that our advisers, so it may not be all it is jacked up to

:18:02.:18:05.

be. The woman on the gangway. No doubt that Brexit and the Trump

:18:06.:18:12.

presidency will affect immigration, it's something that relates to me.

:18:13.:18:17.

With all the media talking about how bad Trump is, I'm trying to look at

:18:18.:18:21.

it from this person. What is saying from his? Everybody is looking at

:18:22.:18:27.

strengths and weaknesses. The good thing he is saying is, America

:18:28.:18:33.

first. Every country's leader should look after their country first.

:18:34.:18:37.

Regarding immigration and the wall, developing countries, immigration,

:18:38.:18:43.

mostly be corrupted leaders are the driving force for immigration in the

:18:44.:18:46.

first place. Immigration isn't the solution for everybody. I think he

:18:47.:18:52.

is saying, I am hoping what he's saying, is message come across to

:18:53.:18:55.

the world, that you have to look after your own people. It doesn't

:18:56.:18:59.

mean closing the country, so then dealing with what you are good at.

:19:00.:19:05.

That is one more point. So you are not wholly opposed to what doing. He

:19:06.:19:10.

seems a very honest person. But he has said is clear. There is no

:19:11.:19:15.

hidden agenda. If you look at the details, we may be able to deal with

:19:16.:19:21.

him. One more point from you, sir. I think we are missing the point of

:19:22.:19:29.

the visit, really, and I don't think Theresa May is going over there

:19:30.:19:32.

because she is a cheerleader of Trump's values. We are about to go

:19:33.:19:37.

into a big negotiation with the EU and it pays to be a shrewd... If you

:19:38.:19:41.

are going out to see a customer, you want to be through the door before

:19:42.:19:44.

the rest of the competition, so Theresa May once to go and see

:19:45.:19:49.

Donald Trump before other nation heads, because we are about to go

:19:50.:19:52.

into a big negotiation with the EU and we would rather have the US

:19:53.:19:57.

behind us, talking on a high level, about a trade deal.

:19:58.:20:03.

APPLAUSE Shall we go on to question, I think?

:20:04.:20:08.

No, you have a quick say. Britain has just come naively, I think,

:20:09.:20:14.

opted out of the world's biggest trade deal, the single market. Do

:20:15.:20:19.

the panel think she will ever get as good a deal from Trump as we had in

:20:20.:20:28.

the single market,? Well, it takes us to the issue of Brexit. Let's

:20:29.:20:31.

have a question from Sophie Petzal, please. Regarding Article 50, do

:20:32.:20:38.

local MPs have a moral duty to vote with their conscience, even if it

:20:39.:20:43.

goes against the majority of their constituents? The issue being that

:20:44.:20:47.

the Supreme Court said that Parliament had to decide. It

:20:48.:20:51.

couldn't just face the decision on the referendum. So do local MPs have

:20:52.:20:56.

a duty to vote with their conscience, even against the

:20:57.:21:01.

majority of their constituents? I am in the fortunate position that I'm

:21:02.:21:04.

going to be voting in the same direction, I think, is 62% of the

:21:05.:21:08.

electorate in Scotland would wish the two, who voted to remain in the

:21:09.:21:14.

EU. The reason why I will vote against what the government is

:21:15.:21:18.

proposing, and incidentally, I brought it along, because I don't

:21:19.:21:21.

know if people are aware how flimsy this thing is. This is it. What is

:21:22.:21:28.

your point? Brevity can be a good thing. On the biggest decision

:21:29.:21:32.

potentially since the Second World War, to be giving a green light to

:21:33.:21:35.

leaving, as the gentleman suggested, the biggest trading bloc in the

:21:36.:21:41.

world for an uncertain future, regardless of whether we voted

:21:42.:21:44.

remain or leave, we need a bit more detail than one side of paper. Can

:21:45.:21:52.

you read it to ask? By way of comparison, in Scotland, people here

:21:53.:21:56.

will be aware, we have a debate in the vote two years ago on Scottish

:21:57.:22:00.

independence, and the proposal involving white paper. This is it. I

:22:01.:22:04.

brought it along. You might agree or disagree. There were 650 pages. I

:22:05.:22:11.

think we deserve that level of detail on such a big issue. Please

:22:12.:22:15.

don't start reading that out because we will be able might! But please

:22:16.:22:19.

read out a White Paper, because that is in the labelling Bill. It won't

:22:20.:22:26.

take long. Clause one, power to notify withdrawal from the EU. The

:22:27.:22:31.

Prime Minister may notify under article X, Y and Z the UK's

:22:32.:22:35.

intention to withdraw from the EU. It goes on that this act may be

:22:36.:22:40.

cited as a EU deadlock as the European Union withdrawal act 2017.

:22:41.:22:46.

What is more interesting is the explanatory notes. On one of the

:22:47.:22:49.

biggest issues we are facing, it goes on to say that this bill is not

:22:50.:22:52.

expected to have any financial implications. Now, regardless of

:22:53.:22:59.

where you work on this debate, on such a big issue, we are expecting

:23:00.:23:03.

parliament to spend less days scrutinising such a big issue with

:23:04.:23:08.

no White Paper having been presented to parliamentarians or members of

:23:09.:23:13.

the public to scrutinise. I think this isn't the way to go about

:23:14.:23:16.

making a big decision, which is why I will not be supporting the

:23:17.:23:20.

government on the issue. James Cleverly. That bill, the Article 50

:23:21.:23:29.

Bill, which is designed to do nothing more than to start the

:23:30.:23:37.

negotiating process, as 133 words and Angus criticises it for not

:23:38.:23:42.

having enough words. Well, a bit of legislation enabling women to become

:23:43.:23:46.

members of Parliament and 70 words. Are you suggesting that didn't have

:23:47.:23:49.

enough words in it either? What this is about is starting a process, a

:23:50.:23:54.

process that has been discussed at length on the floor of the chamber

:23:55.:23:59.

of the House of Commons, in pubs and people's homes all over the country

:24:00.:24:04.

for months and months. This is the start of a process. There will be a

:24:05.:24:09.

White Paper. You are comparing and enabling Bill to a White Paper. You

:24:10.:24:15.

are intentionally mixing the things that you are comparing one to

:24:16.:24:19.

another. There will be plenty of time to debate. When will we get the

:24:20.:24:26.

White Paper? It's a two-year process. When will we get the White

:24:27.:24:33.

Paper? I don't know. On such a big issue... Where is the White Paper?

:24:34.:24:39.

This is about starting the negotiating process. What about the

:24:40.:24:44.

question from Sophie, do MPs have a duty to vote with their conscience

:24:45.:24:47.

or with the majority of their constituents? That is a simple one.

:24:48.:24:55.

MPs should always vote in the way that they believe to be in the

:24:56.:24:58.

interest of the country as a whole, and of their constituents. You of

:24:59.:25:03.

course must vote with your constituents. That's not the same

:25:04.:25:08.

thing. Do you know better than the constituents who voted other venue

:25:09.:25:14.

in your constituency? Are you their representative? -- who voted other

:25:15.:25:19.

venue. We are representatives, not delegates. This point has been

:25:20.:25:24.

debated many times. MPs have to vote in accordance with what they

:25:25.:25:29.

genuinely believe to be right, by their own consciences. We are not

:25:30.:25:36.

there to be the delegates of our constituents, and there will be

:25:37.:25:43.

times when we vote in what you might know not to be a popular decision in

:25:44.:25:50.

your constituency, but which you believe to be right, and that is the

:25:51.:25:53.

duty of MPs. ... The man in the middle. I think the government is

:25:54.:25:58.

inherently not wishing to give Parliament as a whole a say in the

:25:59.:26:03.

most important decision to go before this country in generations. The

:26:04.:26:07.

hallway that the government has gone about it in terms of keeping their

:26:08.:26:11.

cards close to their chest, Brexit means Brexit, it is all sound bites

:26:12.:26:15.

and we now have a White Paper with as many words as you could put in a

:26:16.:26:20.

tweet and it's frankly abysmal. I want to come back to the issue of

:26:21.:26:24.

how people should vote. Diane Abbott, the Labour Party is in some

:26:25.:26:28.

confusion over this issue. No, I wouldn't say that. I am in a lot of

:26:29.:26:35.

confusion over this issue. I have always voted with my conscience and

:26:36.:26:40.

often paid a price for that, not least within my own party. But, on

:26:41.:26:47.

the issue of the referendum, we have to be mindful that MPs voted to have

:26:48.:26:58.

a referendum, and to say that because the vote went the wrong way

:26:59.:27:08.

we are going to ignore the votes of millions of people up and down the

:27:09.:27:12.

country, I think that would be a blow to democracy.

:27:13.:27:19.

APPLAUSE I know that I support Remain. I know

:27:20.:27:26.

that most people in this part of London supported Remain, but what

:27:27.:27:29.

does it say to people in the north-east, the Midlands, the north,

:27:30.:27:34.

former coal-mining areas, if you say, you voted and we are going to

:27:35.:27:37.

ignore you? I am very concerned about this type of Brexit. Brexit

:27:38.:27:42.

under Theresa May, in accordance to Tory values. I will make the point

:27:43.:27:47.

that Angus makes. I was in Parliament for the debate on the

:27:48.:27:51.

Maastricht Treaty, which was just a revision to the EU Treaty. We

:27:52.:27:58.

debated that for 42 days. We are going to get five days to debate

:27:59.:28:02.

coming out of the EU altogether. That demonstrates to me how arrogant

:28:03.:28:07.

Theresa May is, how much she doesn't want to involve Parliament, how much

:28:08.:28:10.

she wants to bulldoze things through. But I repeat, however I

:28:11.:28:20.

feel about Leave, particularly Tory Leave, there is a democratic issue,

:28:21.:28:23.

and the Labour Party is clear about that. So the Labour Party, led by a

:28:24.:28:30.

man who, when he was a backbencher, despite the Labour Party whip 428

:28:31.:28:38.

times, is imposing a three line whip to vote for Article 50. -- defied

:28:39.:28:44.

the Labour Party. And various people say they are not going to do it.

:28:45.:28:48.

What is going to happen, more resignations from the Shadow

:28:49.:28:53.

Cabinet? I repeat, we are here in London saying that we can just

:28:54.:28:57.

ignore what people outside the capital and the big cities think. I

:28:58.:29:03.

think that real democracy sometimes means accepting difficult decisions.

:29:04.:29:08.

We will be fighting to get the best Brexit we can. We will be fighting

:29:09.:29:12.

first and foremost to do something for the 30,000 EU nationals living

:29:13.:29:16.

in this country which have a terrible shadow of uncertainty over

:29:17.:29:21.

them. We want their situation regularised. We will be fighting for

:29:22.:29:24.

regular reporting back and for a meaningful vote at the end of it.

:29:25.:29:29.

Mainly fighting each other, Diane. No. If you're not... If you're not

:29:30.:29:39.

in London, you sound as if you are sneering about what people genuinely

:29:40.:29:46.

think. After the Leave vote itself, your view of some Leave voters

:29:47.:29:52.

wasn't exactly complimentary, as a vote against wanting to see less

:29:53.:29:55.

foreign people on the street, if I recall the quote. I'm glad to hear

:29:56.:30:00.

that you have adjusted your position. As a working-class voter,

:30:01.:30:05.

and I want to speak up, as a working-class Leave voter, I'm not

:30:06.:30:10.

furious all the time, I don't dislike foreign people and I would

:30:11.:30:15.

like the issue of the new EU nationals to be resolved

:30:16.:30:18.

satisfactorily. The reason why the approval of Theresa May is so high

:30:19.:30:21.

at the moment is this is all about trying to take the pulse of the

:30:22.:30:25.

country, and Theresa May is trying to work out what the majority think.

:30:26.:30:29.

I think it was a medical vote to leave the EU and the idea that you

:30:30.:30:32.

would make that vote but somehow want to stay in the colours of the

:30:33.:30:37.

EU, the single market, the custom union, freedom of movement, that

:30:38.:30:38.

seems illogical to me. I want to hear from some more

:30:39.:30:50.

members of the audience. Personally, I think Brexit is going to be the

:30:51.:30:54.

death of the Labour Party because Jeremy Corbyn hasn't got a clue what

:30:55.:30:59.

he's doing. He doesn't even keep you guys informed. Susie Boniface.

:31:00.:31:09.

Yesterday, Paul Blomfield was asked what Corbyn's stance was, and he

:31:10.:31:15.

said he didn't know. And that is your Brexit secretary. It's crazy.

:31:16.:31:21.

To go back to Sophie's question about whether MPs should vote with

:31:22.:31:26.

their conscience, this isn't a conscience issue like abortion or

:31:27.:31:30.

something. This is an issue where the public have all made their

:31:31.:31:34.

feelings known, and regardless of how we voted, and regardless of how

:31:35.:31:37.

much the Labour Party disagrees on what day of the week it is, we are

:31:38.:31:42.

going for Brexit, whether we like it or not. What is in our best interest

:31:43.:31:46.

is for that to go as well as it can do and for us all to get the best

:31:47.:31:50.

deal out of it. For that to happen, we have to have a maximum scrutiny

:31:51.:31:55.

in Parliament. So detail is a good idea. However, right now we do not

:31:56.:32:01.

have any detail. No one has a clue. Can I finish my point? If anyone in

:32:02.:32:07.

this room is divorced, or has a divorce in their families, someone

:32:08.:32:10.

has issued a notice that they are going to divorce the EU. No one has

:32:11.:32:15.

had the financial forms out yet, compared pensions, discussed

:32:16.:32:19.

custody, and you are already asking the children where they want to go

:32:20.:32:24.

and who they want to live with. You can't decide now. This is the start

:32:25.:32:28.

of a long process. To have a conscience vote now is immaterial

:32:29.:32:31.

because it is further down the road. It's the detail you need to vote. It

:32:32.:32:39.

is almost a trend within the SNP party to not accept the outcomes of

:32:40.:32:41.

referendums. APPLAUSE

:32:42.:32:48.

I voted to remain but by except that the outcome was to leave, and I

:32:49.:32:55.

don't think that MPs can then change the decision was made by millions of

:32:56.:33:02.

people democratically. Angus Robertson, is the SNP really

:33:03.:33:05.

just heading towards divorce from the UK on this issue? First off, I

:33:06.:33:12.

totally recognise there was a majority across the UK to leave the

:33:13.:33:16.

EU. There was a majority in England and in Wales. There was a majority

:33:17.:33:21.

in Scotland to remain in the EU, which is why the Scottish Government

:33:22.:33:24.

is working hard to reach a compromise with the UK Government to

:33:25.:33:28.

find a deal that can satisfy all of us. I think, on such a big issue, it

:33:29.:33:35.

behoves the British Prime Minister and Scotland's First Minister to try

:33:36.:33:40.

and find that arrangement. That is why more information has been

:33:41.:33:43.

published on this by the Scottish Government than from the UK

:33:44.:33:46.

Government to date. That is where things are now. What happens when

:33:47.:33:53.

the UK Government then says, I am sorry, we are not prepared to

:33:54.:33:56.

respect the result in Scotland, to work with the Scottish Government,

:33:57.:34:00.

to find a solution that satisfies everybody across these islands? It

:34:01.:34:06.

is like saying we have to recognise the people of London who voted

:34:07.:34:09.

exactly the same way. APPLAUSE

:34:10.:34:15.

Why Scotland? What about London? I support the

:34:16.:34:23.

case by the Mayor of London that the UK Government should negotiate with

:34:24.:34:27.

the importance of the City of London in mind, so that a deal can be

:34:28.:34:31.

reached that is not disadvantageous to the city, or similarly for the

:34:32.:34:34.

car industry in the North of England. We know there will have to

:34:35.:34:39.

be an arrangement for Northern Ireland, and that is no laughing

:34:40.:34:43.

matter, because it is super important to get a deal that works

:34:44.:34:48.

for Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. We need to recognise there

:34:49.:34:51.

are different priorities in different parts of these islands. At

:34:52.:34:56.

this stage, before getting to an independence referendum issue, the

:34:57.:34:58.

Scottish Government is aiming to try and reach an agreement with the UK

:34:59.:35:02.

Government. And I hope the UK Government is prepared to do that.

:35:03.:35:07.

How long until another Scottish referendum, which you look as though

:35:08.:35:12.

you are heading for? If there is going to be a Scottish referendum it

:35:13.:35:16.

is because the UK Government has not been prepared to work with the

:35:17.:35:19.

Scottish Government, which has an elected mandate to try and reach

:35:20.:35:24.

this heel. I think that is why the UK Government should work with the

:35:25.:35:29.

Scottish Government. Angus come EU said that Theresa needs to find a

:35:30.:35:35.

deal. You said that Theresa needs to renegotiate a special elation chip

:35:36.:35:39.

for London. You have then said you will not vote through the enabling

:35:40.:35:42.

legislation which enables her to start a negotiating process. How is

:35:43.:35:47.

she meant to find a deal and negotiate on behalf of London and

:35:48.:35:50.

the devolved administrations when you will vote against the bill that

:35:51.:35:56.

enables her to do so? How can we possibly give the green light to a

:35:57.:35:59.

Prime Minister who is not prepared to give us any details of what she

:36:00.:36:03.

is prepared to negotiate? If she were to outline the fact that she

:36:04.:36:09.

can... Actually sit down and have the gauche nations. Which she can't

:36:10.:36:15.

do. The Prime Minister was saying she will meet with devolved

:36:16.:36:18.

governments on Monday and that is a good thing. But we need to see some

:36:19.:36:22.

progress. Why would we allow her to have carte blanche to do whatever a

:36:23.:36:27.

UK Tory government wants to do without us having any assurances

:36:28.:36:30.

that she will negotiate in our interests. The woman in the second

:36:31.:36:38.

row from the back. Angus mentioned majorities but forgot to mention one

:36:39.:36:43.

specific majority, which is that the majority of Scottish people voted to

:36:44.:36:47.

stay in the UK, and the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU, and

:36:48.:36:51.

Scotland needs to accept that result, just like London.

:36:52.:36:52.

APPLAUSE The man in white.

:36:53.:37:08.

What I want to know is, dodgy Diane kept saying there will be a Tory

:37:09.:37:12.

Brexit that she does not like. What is a Labour Brexit? A Labour

:37:13.:37:22.

Brexit... Let me finish. First of all, a Labour Brexit would put jobs

:37:23.:37:28.

and the economy first. What is that? If you let me finish, a Labour

:37:29.:37:31.

Brexit would put jobs and the economy first. It would be a huge

:37:32.:37:35.

blow for manufacturing and the City of London if we come out of the City

:37:36.:37:40.

of London and also completely out of the customs union. It will be. We

:37:41.:37:47.

are putting jobs and living standards first. Theresa May is

:37:48.:37:50.

putting the issue of immigration first, which brings me to what Geoff

:37:51.:37:55.

said. He hinted something about immigration. Let me just say this,

:37:56.:37:59.

there is no question that some people voted to leave about

:38:00.:38:06.

immigration. But you made a blatant statement. I don't disagree that

:38:07.:38:12.

some people did, but it was a blanket statement. Stop saying, let

:38:13.:38:17.

me make, and just make the point. Just in order to get through the

:38:18.:38:22.

topics. Let her speak. There is no question some people voted on the

:38:23.:38:26.

immigration issue, and also no question that we saw a rise in

:38:27.:38:30.

racist attacks, including in this city, in the wake of the Brexit

:38:31.:38:34.

vote. On the question of immigration, the audience will

:38:35.:38:37.

forgive me, as the daughter of immigrants, if I remind them that

:38:38.:38:40.

immigrants have made London a great city. Nobody is disputing that. We

:38:41.:38:48.

will defend them, including EU migrants, although it is a very

:38:49.:38:52.

negative climate to say these things. We have been round that

:38:53.:38:57.

course several times. Not always when you are on the panel, but

:38:58.:39:04.

often. I think we should move on. We are two thirds of the way through

:39:05.:39:07.

the programme, and because of the woman who rang up to say, please,

:39:08.:39:11.

not Brexit or Trump, I think we should try something else.

:39:12.:39:14.

We're in Wallasey next week, and the week after

:39:15.:39:16.

Should GPs be able to charge certain patients for procedures or aspects

:39:17.:39:37.

of care? It was a suggestion that made the news today from a GP in

:39:38.:39:41.

Oxfordshire that family doctors should be able to charge for evening

:39:42.:39:45.

and weekend appointments, as a way of helping the financial problems of

:39:46.:39:51.

the National Health Service. Geoff Norcott. Yes, I think they should. I

:39:52.:39:57.

know it is unpopular, I know what a religion the NHS is. There were some

:39:58.:40:02.

statistics today that there are 14 million missed appointments every

:40:03.:40:06.

year. To say there is not an obvious solution is not an excuse to do

:40:07.:40:11.

nothing. You should not have a hall of shame outside the surgery where

:40:12.:40:13.

people speculate on what you might have gone there for. But you should

:40:14.:40:18.

do something pragmatic. When you talk about reforming the NHS, people

:40:19.:40:23.

hold up Sweden and Northern European health services as an example. A lot

:40:24.:40:28.

of those countries pay for a share of their health care as well. This

:40:29.:40:32.

is a unique time of people having a bigger population in this country,

:40:33.:40:36.

greater life expectancy. To think you can carry on doing what you did

:40:37.:40:44.

before seems naive. Are we heading for a paid for National Health

:40:45.:40:49.

Service? It is not paid for. The question was about GP out of hours,

:40:50.:40:53.

right. Whether patients should pay for certain aspects of their care.

:40:54.:41:00.

The report I read was about GP out of hours surgery but I think it is a

:41:01.:41:04.

reasonable place to start. Possibly with the same exemption is that you

:41:05.:41:08.

have for dental care. If you are pregnant, unemployed or elderly,

:41:09.:41:12.

obviously you are exempt, but it seems reasonable that people should

:41:13.:41:18.

contribute. Are you talking about just out of hours stuff, or when

:41:19.:41:21.

people are very drunk and get ill as a result of their behaviour?

:41:22.:41:25.

Something like that, or not attending appointments, missed

:41:26.:41:31.

appointments. Certain aspects. This doctor's idea was that you would pay

:41:32.:41:34.

for evening and weekend appointments. Yes, but they also

:41:35.:41:38.

mentioned about certain things like vasectomies and removing moles. The

:41:39.:41:45.

thing is, there is one issue where someone says it sounds like a good

:41:46.:41:49.

idea. You have a 24-year-old who has fallen over in Accident Emergency

:41:50.:41:53.

because he is drunk. Why doesn't he pay for his care? Someone wants to

:41:54.:41:57.

go at 9pm to the GP because they are busy at work, why can't they pay for

:41:58.:42:03.

it? Where do you draw the line? When do you say someone's behaviour has

:42:04.:42:08.

got them in hospital? Do you charge a diabetic who has not regulated

:42:09.:42:10.

their blood properly for going to hospital? I have a condition where I

:42:11.:42:16.

sometimes have epileptic seizures caused by insomnia and anxiety. If I

:42:17.:42:21.

get into 80s and have a seizure, do I have to pay for it because I

:42:22.:42:27.

caused it? And do you think everyone who wants to go to the doctors at

:42:28.:42:31.

evenings and weekends is automatically working in a good job

:42:32.:42:34.

the rest of the time? Perhaps they are shift workers, not that well

:42:35.:42:37.

off, perhaps they can't afford to pay more. So I don't think we should

:42:38.:42:42.

be paying for that, but I do think as a nation we have to pay more for

:42:43.:42:46.

our NHS. It is the lowest cost health care almost in the world for

:42:47.:42:49.

what we are getting. We are not putting enough in. All of the

:42:50.:42:54.

politicians from the main parties think it is anathema and political

:42:55.:42:57.

death to suggest we should pay more for that. I think if they just said,

:42:58.:43:02.

a penny more on income tax and you will have a perfect NHS that will

:43:03.:43:05.

look after you much better, most of us would be fine with it. I think

:43:06.:43:09.

they should just do that. APPLAUSE

:43:10.:43:13.

I am tired of hearing that the reason the NHS is failing is because

:43:14.:43:18.

we are living longer. We live longer because we have a

:43:19.:43:23.

good NHS. When will the government stop hiding behind newspapers and

:43:24.:43:26.

let everyone know it is the PFI schemes and the funding of social

:43:27.:43:29.

care that is causing these problems at the moment? You, sir, with the

:43:30.:43:38.

glasses. I sort of despair at the tone of the debate, because it

:43:39.:43:41.

sounds good in principle, it really does. It would take a lot of boxes

:43:42.:43:46.

but would be a bureaucratic nightmare maintaining that type of

:43:47.:43:50.

system. The biggest thing to talk about, talking to the politicians,

:43:51.:43:55.

is PFI. What is going on with that? We bailed out the banks, maybe now

:43:56.:44:00.

we should bail out the NHS, because it is getting bad. What is it about

:44:01.:44:08.

PFI, private Finance initiative, that you object to? Interest rates.

:44:09.:44:13.

A lot of these were signed by both Labour and the Coalition Government.

:44:14.:44:19.

I don't know what the status is. I don't know if anyone has taken out a

:44:20.:44:23.

payday loan. I haven't. What you hear what they are like. I think the

:44:24.:44:29.

comparison of PFI being like payday loans over the NHS, I think that is

:44:30.:44:33.

what is going on and we need to bailout. The government can borrow

:44:34.:44:35.

money and a lot cheaper than PFI. Going back to the idea of paying for

:44:36.:44:49.

specific aspects of health care, what about those that have a lack of

:44:50.:44:55.

economic resources? Are they denied the necessary care? There is a point

:44:56.:45:00.

that has been missed about this. The question was asked about NHS GPs

:45:01.:45:03.

because, at the moment, if you want to have private procedures, whatever

:45:04.:45:09.

they may be, you can do that. Let's not lose sight of the fact that you

:45:10.:45:13.

have that option if you want. I go back to this question. It's about

:45:14.:45:18.

that then that we value, I think all of us on the panel value a National

:45:19.:45:21.

Health Service. We understand the pressures it under. Do I believe

:45:22.:45:27.

that GPs being able to charge their patients within the NHS is the thin

:45:28.:45:32.

end of the privatisation wench? I absolutely believe that that is what

:45:33.:45:39.

it is and I'm not in favour of that happeneding. We should have a public

:45:40.:45:44.

NHS free at point need. You, with the red tie on. I think there two

:45:45.:45:50.

different issues. The first issue is that, if you have to go on and

:45:51.:45:56.

evening or weekend, because you can't do any other times, then you

:45:57.:46:00.

have the right because you contribute to the National Health

:46:01.:46:06.

Service. On the other hand, if you want that service for other reasons,

:46:07.:46:10.

for example, you are drunk or because you miss the appointment,

:46:11.:46:13.

then you should be treated differently. If you miss your

:46:14.:46:19.

appointment and you don't phone in advance to cancel it, then yes, you

:46:20.:46:25.

should be given a first warning, second warning then, I'm sorry, you

:46:26.:46:27.

are at the back of the queue. To show a bit of commitment and

:46:28.:46:31.

appreciation to the fact that you are receiving the service. Diane

:46:32.:46:36.

Abbott, what do you think of that point we have often heard that about

:46:37.:46:41.

people who don't turn up? There have been schemes to deal with this like

:46:42.:46:45.

texting and reminding people, but on the general point that people paying

:46:46.:46:49.

for GP services, I'd be against it for this reason. Jeff talked about

:46:50.:46:56.

exemptions, but the people you would put off going to see their GP are

:46:57.:47:01.

exactly the people that should go and see their GP, the elderly, the

:47:02.:47:07.

poor, people with children. Let me take one issue, cancer. We have the

:47:08.:47:15.

worst cancer out turns in Europe because people get diagnosed late.

:47:16.:47:20.

It seems to me, if you start charging, the danger is that people

:47:21.:47:23.

will put off going to the GP and will be diagnosed with serious

:47:24.:47:28.

issues like cancer even later. People often go to the GP about one

:47:29.:47:33.

thing and the GP discovers another thing. Anything that puts people off

:47:34.:47:37.

going to their GP cannot be good for health outcomes in this country.

:47:38.:47:42.

APPLAUSE I was glad you referred to the

:47:43.:47:45.

dental system, because I went to see my dentist earlier this week and had

:47:46.:47:53.

a tooth extraction under the NHS, costing ?53. This is an indication

:47:54.:47:58.

of the direction of travel. This is where we are going. People have been

:47:59.:48:04.

talking about the idea that there are moves to privatise the NHS.

:48:05.:48:08.

Actually, this process has been going on for quite a long time, and

:48:09.:48:11.

that's the direction we are moving and I think we need to be alive to

:48:12.:48:16.

the real forms that this will take. It's not going to be done at a

:48:17.:48:21.

stroke, openly. It's going to be done bit by bit and gradually

:48:22.:48:24.

acclimatising us the idea that we have to pay for this and that. And

:48:25.:48:31.

is that a good idea? Know, an extremely bad idea and it's the way

:48:32.:48:35.

we get led blindly into a position that most of us do not want. James

:48:36.:48:42.

Cleverly. You might want to make a note of this in your diary, because

:48:43.:48:46.

it's not going to happen very often, but I agree with Diane on this one.

:48:47.:48:54.

The thing that concerns me about this proposal, remember, it's a

:48:55.:49:00.

proposal that came from an NHS professional, not from the

:49:01.:49:02.

government or a Conservative politician, is that it would, like

:49:03.:49:06.

Diane says, put off the very people. I have sat in an ambulance call

:49:07.:49:12.

centre, call handling centre, and I have listened to the kind of calls

:49:13.:49:16.

with people demanding that an ambulance gets sent to them because

:49:17.:49:20.

they have got a broken finger, and they get very direct. And what is

:49:21.:49:26.

remarkable in its absence are the voices of the elderly, who are often

:49:27.:49:31.

very conscious that they are imposing on others. Diane is right.

:49:32.:49:38.

If we allowed the impression to be created that you shouldn't go to the

:49:39.:49:43.

GP if you feel unwell or you are concerned about your health, I think

:49:44.:49:46.

it would have a dire consequence, so on this one, I think the answer is

:49:47.:49:51.

simple. They should not be charges. I want to go on to last question.

:49:52.:49:58.

Ross Curtis, please. Given the recent strike chaos and announcement

:49:59.:50:02.

of an increase in fares, should the railways be nationalised? Southern

:50:03.:50:07.

Rail, affecting a lot of people in London, have been on strike for

:50:08.:50:11.

weeks and weeks, and the Tube has been on strike again, so should the

:50:12.:50:18.

railways be nationalised? Yes, but with one caveat, which is that the

:50:19.:50:21.

government effectively is running Southern at the moment and they are

:50:22.:50:24.

not doing a terribly good job of it. They have given the franchise to

:50:25.:50:29.

Govia Thameslink and they have guaranteed that company ?1 billion

:50:30.:50:35.

per year. They are taking all the financial hits of the strike

:50:36.:50:37.

themselves, the government, ie us, the taxpayer, so all of the strikes

:50:38.:50:43.

and fair penalty repayments and everything else is coming out of our

:50:44.:50:48.

pockets, not the train operators. They are guaranteed their money. So

:50:49.:50:54.

nationalising wouldn't make any difference? We should nationalised

:50:55.:50:56.

because it would be better than now but we have to have it run by

:50:57.:51:00.

somebody competent, and that isn't this government. Certainly not Chris

:51:01.:51:06.

Grayling. I think the strike chaos, just today on the central line in

:51:07.:51:11.

London there was a strike. Even though I vote Conservative, I

:51:12.:51:14.

respect the right of people to form unions and to take strike action.

:51:15.:51:21.

But there are no socialists when you are waiting 25 minutes for a Tube.

:51:22.:51:25.

Even Jeremy Corbyn would be throwing down his red book in disgust. I

:51:26.:51:29.

suppose I can speak for the normal person. It's very hard, with this

:51:30.:51:33.

strike action continuing, there is a sympathy well that could run dry

:51:34.:51:39.

eventually, and I think that's beginning to happen. The woman up

:51:40.:51:45.

there. East Coast was run by the government for many years and they

:51:46.:51:50.

did a very efficient and comfortable service and paid millions back to

:51:51.:51:57.

the Treasury. Now, it's run by Virgin and the Treasury doesn't

:51:58.:52:02.

benefit any more. Ross, what do you think? Obviously, as you can tell

:52:03.:52:07.

from the accent, I'm not from here. I was going to talk about Southern

:52:08.:52:15.

foot about East Coast, as the lady said, tonight, if I had to go home

:52:16.:52:19.

tonight after the show, it would cost me ?150 for a single ticket to

:52:20.:52:28.

get to Durham. ?150. Look at the franchises that have run East Coast

:52:29.:52:36.

for the last 20 years. Would it be cheaper if the government run it in

:52:37.:52:45.

the long it could be. Is then not talk of Southern Rail being taken

:52:46.:52:50.

back into...? It's worth remembering certain things. Ross, I'm a bit

:52:51.:52:55.

older than you buy a couple of months, maybe. Don't flatter

:52:56.:53:06.

yourself! But I'm old enough to remember, and Geoff is a

:53:07.:53:09.

professional comedian, when the staple of the British comedy circuit

:53:10.:53:13.

was the dire performance of British rail. The idea that somehow the

:53:14.:53:20.

government running big entities like the rail service is an automatic

:53:21.:53:27.

guarantee of success, I think, unfortunately, is not the case. So I

:53:28.:53:32.

think that is a simple solution to a complicated problem and not the

:53:33.:53:35.

right way forward. One thing also worth bearing in mind is that the

:53:36.:53:39.

bit of the railway system which is run in the public sector, Network

:53:40.:53:42.

Rail, has been one of the problems in many of the difficulties we have

:53:43.:53:49.

had with rail around the country. I think Chris Grayling is absolutely

:53:50.:53:53.

right to say that Network Rail and the franchise holders now have to

:53:54.:53:57.

work properly in an integrated way to reduce the delays, to get better

:53:58.:54:02.

quality services. That is a step in the right direction. I just don't

:54:03.:54:07.

buy the idea that bringing the railways back into national

:54:08.:54:10.

ownership will make them any better than they are at the moment, but I

:54:11.:54:16.

suspect it would make them worse. On Southern, I think the situation is a

:54:17.:54:21.

scandal. It has been a scandal for a long time and I think, at the very

:54:22.:54:24.

least, Southern should be handed over to Transport for London. I know

:54:25.:54:30.

there was a dispute today, but generally Transport for London as a

:54:31.:54:35.

whole does not have the problem is that Southern has. I live on the

:54:36.:54:38.

London Underground route, and it is immaculate, run by Transport for

:54:39.:54:44.

London. On the general questions of the railways and ownership, somebody

:54:45.:54:47.

said, what does the Labour Party stand for? One thing that we stand

:54:48.:54:51.

for is bringing the railways back into public ownership. We believe it

:54:52.:54:56.

could be done at minimum cost of each franchise falls due bringing it

:54:57.:55:02.

back into the public. The truth is, under the current system, at the

:55:03.:55:07.

very least, millions and millions of public money is being spent to

:55:08.:55:12.

subsidise private operators, so what do we stand for? Bringing railways

:55:13.:55:18.

into public ownership. I think we need to make a decision on this

:55:19.:55:21.

because, at the moment, it is not acceptable. There is a breakdown in

:55:22.:55:24.

communication. What commuters have been going through in the last few

:55:25.:55:29.

months, almost a year, it can't carry on. Whether it is taken back

:55:30.:55:33.

by the government or something else, somebody has to change the

:55:34.:55:37.

situation. Unless it does just go on. You, sir. And then I will

:55:38.:55:44.

continue. Just slightly rewinding the tape, does America really care

:55:45.:55:50.

about our relationship with America? It seems to me... I thought we were

:55:51.:55:55.

talking about the railways. This woman who rang up and said, please,

:55:56.:56:00.

not Trump and Brexit, she will not like what you are saying! No, I

:56:01.:56:05.

think... Lets stick to this. We only have a minute or so left. Sorry you

:56:06.:56:11.

didn't get in early. Yes, you, the woman there. Rein I think a real

:56:12.:56:16.

concern is that provision wasn't made for failures of the franchises.

:56:17.:56:22.

We are talking about it being brought back under public control.

:56:23.:56:25.

Diane's point is that that would have to happen when the franchise

:56:26.:56:32.

falls due. I heard there would be no service for six months for us to

:56:33.:56:34.

take back control of those franchises. It seems to me there is

:56:35.:56:40.

an immediate problem and a potential medium-term solution, because we are

:56:41.:56:45.

mixing up to things, the Southern issue and also the ongoing strike

:56:46.:56:47.

action in London that people have raised. On the first point, I think

:56:48.:56:53.

that everybody wishes for better industrial relations, so the efforts

:56:54.:56:57.

being made to try and encourage people to get together, I totally

:56:58.:57:00.

agree there is a right for people to be represented by their trade union,

:57:01.:57:04.

and it is right that Transport for London is trying to provide the most

:57:05.:57:07.

efficient service and I think we need to support the London mayor in

:57:08.:57:11.

trying to get improved industrial relations together. That is a

:57:12.:57:15.

solution to something we may be able to gain in the short term. On the

:57:16.:57:20.

medium-term issue, on the franchise holders and are they providing

:57:21.:57:24.

adequate service? Lily in the south of England that is not the case. I

:57:25.:57:29.

don't want to get involved in English politics, because it a did

:57:30.:57:33.

the -- it is a devolved issue in Scotland, but I would suggest you

:57:34.:57:37.

should be open to allowing public sector bids and, if they can provide

:57:38.:57:41.

a better service, one should be open to that, but that will not fix the

:57:42.:57:46.

short-term problem that so many of us who spent time in London are

:57:47.:57:49.

having to suffer. You have had your hand up for some time. This is

:57:50.:57:55.

exactly why we shouldn't privatise the NHS, because it will not make

:57:56.:57:57.

any difference to the service. APPLAUSE

:57:58.:58:03.

Thank you for that. Our time is up. We have got to stop.

:58:04.:58:05.

We're in Wallasey next week, and the week after

:58:06.:58:07.

To come and take part in our audience, in Wallasey

:58:08.:58:11.

or Torquay, go to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88.

:58:12.:58:18.

If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes

:58:19.:58:20.

My thanks to our panel, to all of you who came here to this part of

:58:21.:58:31.

north London to take part in tonight's programme. Many thanks to

:58:32.:58:35.

you all. Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.

:58:36.:59:11.

It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain,

:59:12.:59:14.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS