Browse content similar to 26/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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and key Jeremy Corbyn ally, Diane Abbott. | :00:00. | :00:20. | |
The Conservative MP new to the House of Commons in 2015, James Cleverly. | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
The SNP Leader in Westminster, Angus Robertson. | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
Daily Mirror Online writer Fleet Street Fox, | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
And Geoff "I'm the only Conservative-voting comedian | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook, | :00:39. | :00:56. | |
Just before we came on air, I had an e-mail from someone saying, please | :00:57. | :01:14. | |
not Trump and please not Brexit. I have two disappoint you. Our | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
audience overwhelmingly want to talk about Brexit and Trump. We start | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
with a question from Kristel Tracey. Should our government turn a blind | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
eye to Trump's controversial policies in the interests of | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
renewing our special glacial chip with the US? James Cleverly. -- our | :01:32. | :01:41. | |
special relationship. The short answer is no, we mustn't turn a | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
blind eye, whether it comes from the President of the United States of | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
America, or anyone else. We are long-standing friends of America, | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
and they are long-standing friends of ours and we have to make the | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
relationship with the elected head of state of that country work. But | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
Theresa May has a reputation for straight talking, telling people | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
perhaps untruths -- some truths that they don't like to hear. And I have | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
no doubt she will have a very frank conversation with the President of | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
the United States of America. But if you are hoping for some Love | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
actually type moment, you will probably be disappointed because as | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
friends and allies, we probably do our criticism in private and | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
supportive comments in public. She did say on the plane to a reporter, | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
haven't you ever noticed, opposites attract. So maybe you are in for a | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
moment. Well, I am confident that the Prime Minister and the President | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
will have a professional and close working relationship. Perhaps not | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
quite as intimate as Tony Blair and George W Bush, but I am sure she | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
will make it work. Let's deal with some of the problems in renewing the | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
relationship. Diane Abbott, what do you think the Prime Minister should | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
do? America is a long-standing ally and whichever party was in | :03:07. | :03:08. | |
government would have to work with them on things on which we agree. | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
But this is not so much a question of turning a blind eye to Donald | :03:13. | :03:19. | |
Trump's policies, it is that we cannot turn a blind eye to his | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
values. This is a man who, even compared with other right-wing | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
Republican presidents, is quite extraordinary. This is a man who | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
talks about grabbing women by the pussy. This is a man who wants to | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
stop Muslims entering the US, all Muslims. And this is a man who says, | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
contrary to everything, the army and the security services know, that | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
torture works. What policies that Trump wants to put forward is | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
primarily a matter for him and the American people. But on our values, | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
I think British values that we should all share, I don't think we | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
should give ground, even to get these so-called trade deals. Some | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
things are not for sale. APPLAUSE | :04:12. | :04:23. | |
Susie Boniface. In answer to the question, no, you | :04:24. | :04:32. | |
don't turn a blind eye, and I hope she is keeping Trump at arms length, | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
and not just out of grabbing distance but genuinely at arms | :04:38. | :04:40. | |
length. We have to go and talk to him, deal with him. There are a | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
million jobs in this country that rely on American firms, and a | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
million jobs in America that rely on Tish firms. The trade is worth | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
billions. Just because there is a slightly crazy man in the White | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
House does not mean we should stop talking to him altogether. We have | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
to keep it going for pragmatic reasons, for the interests of our | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
citizens here and citizens abroad. But you have to consider how history | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
will judge this further down the road. We are stuck in this first | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
week of a fire hose of news, this astonishing stuff that keeps coming | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
out of the White House. We have to think what will happen when it is | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
over. At some point, Donald Trump will either be impeached, he will | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
lose an election in four years, or he will leave after eight years, | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
when he has to go gracefully, as Obama did. How do you think he will | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
go? How is it going to end? I personally think the military will | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
have to chisel his teeth out of the Oval Office desk to get him out. He | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
will not go quietly, it will be ugly. In the long-term, history will | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
look at Theresa May and say, was she a second Maggie, or a second Neville | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
Chamberlain. As simple as that. Angus Robertson. People will reflect | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
on the unseemly way in which she has been keen to be the first foreign | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
leader to walk into the White House and meet President Trump. Every | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
moderate mainstream politician in the world recognises that it is | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
important to have a good relationship with the United States | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
and with the office of the President of the United States. Do you think | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
she should not have accepted the invitation? One moment. Do you think | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
she should have rejected the invitation to go? On the basis of | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
what has been said about torture alone, the Prime Minister should use | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
her leveraged. We are told that Britain has a special relationship | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
with the United States. If it does, I would hope it would be on the | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
basis of two states that do not torture. If the President were to | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
give an assurance that he will not go ahead with what he is actively | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
considering, which is to reintroduce torture as a policy by the CIA, the | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
reopening of black sites, and extraordinary rendition, the | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
kidnapping of people and flying them around the world, if the UK has a | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
special relationship, I would call on the Prime Minister to get an | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
assurance that the US will not go ahead with torture, before meeting | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
the President of the United States. APPLAUSE | :07:13. | :07:14. | |
Let's hear from the audience. First of all, I think that special | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
relationship got damaged so much over the last eight years under | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
Obama that Theresa May has really got to go over and rebuild it. To | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
say that we already have it is completely wrong. We don't have | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
that. To even suggest that she should not go over and start | :07:37. | :07:38. | |
building that relationship, especially when we have to look at | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
future trade deals is just stupid. In your view it was destroyed under | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
Obama because of what? That relationship over the last eight | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
years is, Obama has never been that interested in the British people and | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
British culture, especially. He has never been a fan. Before Brexit, | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
back of the queue. Geoff Norcott. No matter what job you do, what side of | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
the political divide you are, have some empathy with Theresa May that | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
this was in her calendar. I don't think anyone is sitting there going | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
two sleeps until lunch with the Trumps. It is something that she has | :08:20. | :08:29. | |
to do, Brexit or no Brexit. The likelihood of a hard Brexit makes it | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
even more imperative. As the nonpolitician and non-journalist, | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
what would I do? He is notoriously thin-skinned. The idea that you can | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
criticise him off the bat does not seem realistic. Germany are not | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
getting a call back. The best thing they can do is to like his tweets | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
and curry favour. How do you get a seat at the table? If it was me, I | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
would just butter him up, compliment him. I would arrive and say, your | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
hair looks great. Is it me, or is the White House bigger since you got | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
here? If you want somebody to speak truth to power, you have to have the | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
ear of power first. Then, down the line, couple of days, say, just dial | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
it down on the hate speech. Of all world leaders at the moment, I think | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
she is the person that could possibly do that. | :09:21. | :09:21. | |
APPLAUSE Do you think that Putin and Trump's | :09:22. | :09:32. | |
special relationship will supersede Theresa May and Trump's special | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
relationship? That is a very good question. Angus | :09:36. | :09:42. | |
takes a nobly naive position. I adore him for it. But ultimately, | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
President Trump is going to make international relationships he | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
believes are in the best interests of the United States of America. If | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
we are not sat across a table with him, if the Prime Minister is not | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
sat across a table with him, as our primary military ally, our second | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
largest trade partner, making our relationship work, he will look | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
relationships. And it is entirely feasible that one of those | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
relationships might be between him and Vladimir Putin. He already has | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
that. And it is not a relationship I am massively comfortable with. Is | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
she going to come back with a trade deal, Diane Abbott? Susie said that | :10:23. | :10:35. | |
we should not stop talking to him. Nobody is talking about stopping | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
talking. That is exactly what I said at the beginning. But on this | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
question of trade deals, which everyone is using as an excuse why | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
we have two suck up to him, let's be clear, this country has hardly any | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
trade negotiators, echoes most of our trade negotiation is done | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
through the EU. And remember Trump's slogan, America first. We will get | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
trade deals, all right, but what sort of trade deals? Trade deals | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
which will open the NHS to American corporate health. | :11:07. | :11:07. | |
APPLAUSE Trade deals which will drag down our | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
environmental standards. We will get deals, but whether | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
people will like them when we get them is another thing. You are | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
saying that Theresa May should say what they want to hear but that is | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
my problem with her. Be it with Brexit, she is just saying what she | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
thinks we want to hear but not telling us what is happening. She | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
will do it with Trump, go over there and do some toing and froing about | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
what she thinks we should hear but not the decisive. I would like a | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
Prime Minister who is telling me what is going on, where she stands, | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
instead of playing her cards all over the table. If it was you, what | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
would you say? I would be strong on my values. We are not this week | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
country that has to suck up to America. We have to stand for what | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
we believe in, the climate change, anti torture, we can't hide away. | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
But you have a million jobs that depend on him being in a good mood | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
with us. Half of our Trident missiles we rent from America. I | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
would love it if we could go over there and the Prime Minister could | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
go, no, stop, we are Britain, pack it in, we are not going to kiss your | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
big, white, wrinkly bomb. That is enough. Sounds like the kind of | :12:27. | :12:33. | |
language he would understand. I have two agree with the gentleman on the | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
left who spoke about the culture that had been created under Barack | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
Obama. Now we are focusing on the ideas of immigration and Mexico and | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
the wall. Do you not think this culture of apathy was built up under | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
Barack Obama because of his flip-flopping on issues like gay | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
marriage? As an openly gay man, I found it bizarre that a Harvard | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
professor was sitting there, having to, in 2008, have the faculty | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
supporting that kind of human rights. Do you not think he created | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
a culture of apathy in the US that ultimately led to Donald Trump | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
anyway? I am wondering why people that we got George W Bush Mach two. | :13:19. | :13:26. | |
There is one other question on Trump from Charles Harris. If the | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
government policy in the UK is to reduce illegal immigration, why is | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
Donald Trump's wall so controversial? | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
Well, the impossibility of building it. They have already said, there | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
may be some fences. I think that's a good metaphor. I think that, you | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
know, the idea, I mean, I'm sure we will get onto this, I voted Leave, | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
and I think there is a dialogue around having controls on | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
immigration and there is a rampantly xenophobic dialogue that Donald | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
Trump is entering into. I think what the war has become is a metaphor for | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
a state of mind with him. -- the wall. I think that's the problem. If | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
it was just one of the other, but the whole package with Donald Trump | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
is he is alarmingly xenophobic. It's not just about relationship with | :14:22. | :14:30. | |
Mexicans. It's about stopping all Muslims going to the United States, | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
and what worries me is that we are seeing a very intolerant language | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
coming into politics. Whoever was responsible at whatever point, it | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
isn't a new thing, unfortunately, xenophobia and narrow-mindedness, | :14:48. | :14:49. | |
but there is a lot of it in politics. It seems to me, when we | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
are talking about the policy of Donald Trump or the debate on these | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
islands, I think, regardless of where we stand, in our case on | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
different sides of the argument on Brexit, I think it holds all of us | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
to make sure that the language we use reflects the values that most | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
people share, which is that we are welcoming of people, especially who | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
have come here in need, and just to reflect on this in a second in this | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
city, 1 million people who live here come from other European countries, | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
and they work in our NHS and they work in our private sector. They are | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
our neighbours, they are taxpayers, and the language that I sometimes | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
hear about people, and then themselves feeling that they are | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
being told to go home, I think it is something that should give all of us | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
concerned, regardless of where we sit on the Brexit question or Donald | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
Trump. APPLAUSE | :15:46. | :15:56. | |
The man next to you. Sorry, is Theresa May in a position to | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
negotiate with Trump? A lot of things have been mentioned. What | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
about Trump's green light given to Israel, whereas in Palestine a lot | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
of homes have been demolished, and they are using the illegal | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
occupation, land is a quiet on the illegal occupation, to build 4500 | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
homes. -- land acquired. Are you saying that because of that Theresa | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
May shouldn't to him? Theresa May isn't in a strong position to speak | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
to him because we have got Brexit and she is looking for a trade deal | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
with Trump. The gentleman mentioned that she will speak to him and tell | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
him about the British values, but what about, will she speak to him | :16:38. | :16:46. | |
about the Palestinian cause? I don't have the running order of what they | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
are going to discuss, and it would be impossible in any one meeting, | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
particularly an introductory meeting, to cover the full gamut of | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
home affairs, but there is a lovely bit of transcription from when the | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
United States of America sent troops to Granada, which was actually | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
sending American troops on to British soil, to all intents and | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
purposes, and got a dressing down by Margaret Thatcher. There is a | :17:18. | :17:19. | |
wonderful transcription of what was basically a one-way hairdryer | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
conversation, where Margaret Thatcher told President Reagan in no | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
uncertain terms how displeased she was. That is what a special | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
relationship means that it doesn't been one-way traffic. It means that | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
we as the UK can speak frankly to the United States of America through | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
its president. I think that's important. You remember that, when | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
Winston Churchill met Truman and started talking about... I wasn't | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
there. You will have read about it. Maybe not. When they started talking | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
about the special relationship, Truman said, to Churchill's dismay, | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
we will pass that our advisers, so it may not be all it is jacked up to | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
be. The woman on the gangway. No doubt that Brexit and the Trump | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
presidency will affect immigration, it's something that relates to me. | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
With all the media talking about how bad Trump is, I'm trying to look at | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
it from this person. What is saying from his? Everybody is looking at | :18:22. | :18:27. | |
strengths and weaknesses. The good thing he is saying is, America | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
first. Every country's leader should look after their country first. | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
Regarding immigration and the wall, developing countries, immigration, | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
mostly be corrupted leaders are the driving force for immigration in the | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
first place. Immigration isn't the solution for everybody. I think he | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
is saying, I am hoping what he's saying, is message come across to | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
the world, that you have to look after your own people. It doesn't | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
mean closing the country, so then dealing with what you are good at. | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
That is one more point. So you are not wholly opposed to what doing. He | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
seems a very honest person. But he has said is clear. There is no | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
hidden agenda. If you look at the details, we may be able to deal with | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
him. One more point from you, sir. I think we are missing the point of | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
the visit, really, and I don't think Theresa May is going over there | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
because she is a cheerleader of Trump's values. We are about to go | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
into a big negotiation with the EU and it pays to be a shrewd... If you | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
are going out to see a customer, you want to be through the door before | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
the rest of the competition, so Theresa May once to go and see | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
Donald Trump before other nation heads, because we are about to go | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
into a big negotiation with the EU and we would rather have the US | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
behind us, talking on a high level, about a trade deal. | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
APPLAUSE Shall we go on to question, I think? | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
No, you have a quick say. Britain has just come naively, I think, | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
opted out of the world's biggest trade deal, the single market. Do | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
the panel think she will ever get as good a deal from Trump as we had in | :20:20. | :20:28. | |
the single market,? Well, it takes us to the issue of Brexit. Let's | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
have a question from Sophie Petzal, please. Regarding Article 50, do | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
local MPs have a moral duty to vote with their conscience, even if it | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
goes against the majority of their constituents? The issue being that | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
the Supreme Court said that Parliament had to decide. It | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
couldn't just face the decision on the referendum. So do local MPs have | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
a duty to vote with their conscience, even against the | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
majority of their constituents? I am in the fortunate position that I'm | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
going to be voting in the same direction, I think, is 62% of the | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
electorate in Scotland would wish the two, who voted to remain in the | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
EU. The reason why I will vote against what the government is | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
proposing, and incidentally, I brought it along, because I don't | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
know if people are aware how flimsy this thing is. This is it. What is | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
your point? Brevity can be a good thing. On the biggest decision | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
potentially since the Second World War, to be giving a green light to | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
leaving, as the gentleman suggested, the biggest trading bloc in the | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
world for an uncertain future, regardless of whether we voted | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
remain or leave, we need a bit more detail than one side of paper. Can | :21:45. | :21:52. | |
you read it to ask? By way of comparison, in Scotland, people here | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
will be aware, we have a debate in the vote two years ago on Scottish | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
independence, and the proposal involving white paper. This is it. I | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
brought it along. You might agree or disagree. There were 650 pages. I | :22:05. | :22:11. | |
think we deserve that level of detail on such a big issue. Please | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
don't start reading that out because we will be able might! But please | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
read out a White Paper, because that is in the labelling Bill. It won't | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
take long. Clause one, power to notify withdrawal from the EU. The | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
Prime Minister may notify under article X, Y and Z the UK's | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
intention to withdraw from the EU. It goes on that this act may be | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
cited as a EU deadlock as the European Union withdrawal act 2017. | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
What is more interesting is the explanatory notes. On one of the | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
biggest issues we are facing, it goes on to say that this bill is not | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
expected to have any financial implications. Now, regardless of | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
where you work on this debate, on such a big issue, we are expecting | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
parliament to spend less days scrutinising such a big issue with | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
no White Paper having been presented to parliamentarians or members of | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
the public to scrutinise. I think this isn't the way to go about | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
making a big decision, which is why I will not be supporting the | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
government on the issue. James Cleverly. That bill, the Article 50 | :23:21. | :23:29. | |
Bill, which is designed to do nothing more than to start the | :23:30. | :23:37. | |
negotiating process, as 133 words and Angus criticises it for not | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
having enough words. Well, a bit of legislation enabling women to become | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
members of Parliament and 70 words. Are you suggesting that didn't have | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
enough words in it either? What this is about is starting a process, a | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
process that has been discussed at length on the floor of the chamber | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
of the House of Commons, in pubs and people's homes all over the country | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
for months and months. This is the start of a process. There will be a | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
White Paper. You are comparing and enabling Bill to a White Paper. You | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
are intentionally mixing the things that you are comparing one to | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
another. There will be plenty of time to debate. When will we get the | :24:20. | :24:26. | |
White Paper? It's a two-year process. When will we get the White | :24:27. | :24:33. | |
Paper? I don't know. On such a big issue... Where is the White Paper? | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
This is about starting the negotiating process. What about the | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
question from Sophie, do MPs have a duty to vote with their conscience | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
or with the majority of their constituents? That is a simple one. | :24:48. | :24:55. | |
MPs should always vote in the way that they believe to be in the | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
interest of the country as a whole, and of their constituents. You of | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
course must vote with your constituents. That's not the same | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
thing. Do you know better than the constituents who voted other venue | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
in your constituency? Are you their representative? -- who voted other | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
venue. We are representatives, not delegates. This point has been | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
debated many times. MPs have to vote in accordance with what they | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
genuinely believe to be right, by their own consciences. We are not | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
there to be the delegates of our constituents, and there will be | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
times when we vote in what you might know not to be a popular decision in | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
your constituency, but which you believe to be right, and that is the | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
duty of MPs. ... The man in the middle. I think the government is | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
inherently not wishing to give Parliament as a whole a say in the | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
most important decision to go before this country in generations. The | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
hallway that the government has gone about it in terms of keeping their | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
cards close to their chest, Brexit means Brexit, it is all sound bites | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
and we now have a White Paper with as many words as you could put in a | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
tweet and it's frankly abysmal. I want to come back to the issue of | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
how people should vote. Diane Abbott, the Labour Party is in some | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
confusion over this issue. No, I wouldn't say that. I am in a lot of | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
confusion over this issue. I have always voted with my conscience and | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
often paid a price for that, not least within my own party. But, on | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
the issue of the referendum, we have to be mindful that MPs voted to have | :26:48. | :26:58. | |
a referendum, and to say that because the vote went the wrong way | :26:59. | :27:08. | |
we are going to ignore the votes of millions of people up and down the | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
country, I think that would be a blow to democracy. | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
APPLAUSE I know that I support Remain. I know | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
that most people in this part of London supported Remain, but what | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
does it say to people in the north-east, the Midlands, the north, | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
former coal-mining areas, if you say, you voted and we are going to | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
ignore you? I am very concerned about this type of Brexit. Brexit | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
under Theresa May, in accordance to Tory values. I will make the point | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
that Angus makes. I was in Parliament for the debate on the | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
Maastricht Treaty, which was just a revision to the EU Treaty. We | :27:52. | :27:58. | |
debated that for 42 days. We are going to get five days to debate | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
coming out of the EU altogether. That demonstrates to me how arrogant | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
Theresa May is, how much she doesn't want to involve Parliament, how much | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
she wants to bulldoze things through. But I repeat, however I | :28:11. | :28:20. | |
feel about Leave, particularly Tory Leave, there is a democratic issue, | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
and the Labour Party is clear about that. So the Labour Party, led by a | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
man who, when he was a backbencher, despite the Labour Party whip 428 | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
times, is imposing a three line whip to vote for Article 50. -- defied | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
the Labour Party. And various people say they are not going to do it. | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
What is going to happen, more resignations from the Shadow | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
Cabinet? I repeat, we are here in London saying that we can just | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
ignore what people outside the capital and the big cities think. I | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
think that real democracy sometimes means accepting difficult decisions. | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
We will be fighting to get the best Brexit we can. We will be fighting | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
first and foremost to do something for the 30,000 EU nationals living | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
in this country which have a terrible shadow of uncertainty over | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
them. We want their situation regularised. We will be fighting for | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
regular reporting back and for a meaningful vote at the end of it. | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
Mainly fighting each other, Diane. No. If you're not... If you're not | :29:30. | :29:39. | |
in London, you sound as if you are sneering about what people genuinely | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
think. After the Leave vote itself, your view of some Leave voters | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
wasn't exactly complimentary, as a vote against wanting to see less | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
foreign people on the street, if I recall the quote. I'm glad to hear | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
that you have adjusted your position. As a working-class voter, | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
and I want to speak up, as a working-class Leave voter, I'm not | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
furious all the time, I don't dislike foreign people and I would | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
like the issue of the new EU nationals to be resolved | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
satisfactorily. The reason why the approval of Theresa May is so high | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
at the moment is this is all about trying to take the pulse of the | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
country, and Theresa May is trying to work out what the majority think. | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
I think it was a medical vote to leave the EU and the idea that you | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
would make that vote but somehow want to stay in the colours of the | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
EU, the single market, the custom union, freedom of movement, that | :30:38. | :30:38. | |
seems illogical to me. I want to hear from some more | :30:39. | :30:50. | |
members of the audience. Personally, I think Brexit is going to be the | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
death of the Labour Party because Jeremy Corbyn hasn't got a clue what | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
he's doing. He doesn't even keep you guys informed. Susie Boniface. | :31:00. | :31:09. | |
Yesterday, Paul Blomfield was asked what Corbyn's stance was, and he | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
said he didn't know. And that is your Brexit secretary. It's crazy. | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
To go back to Sophie's question about whether MPs should vote with | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
their conscience, this isn't a conscience issue like abortion or | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
something. This is an issue where the public have all made their | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
feelings known, and regardless of how we voted, and regardless of how | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
much the Labour Party disagrees on what day of the week it is, we are | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
going for Brexit, whether we like it or not. What is in our best interest | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
is for that to go as well as it can do and for us all to get the best | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
deal out of it. For that to happen, we have to have a maximum scrutiny | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
in Parliament. So detail is a good idea. However, right now we do not | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
have any detail. No one has a clue. Can I finish my point? If anyone in | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
this room is divorced, or has a divorce in their families, someone | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
has issued a notice that they are going to divorce the EU. No one has | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
had the financial forms out yet, compared pensions, discussed | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
custody, and you are already asking the children where they want to go | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
and who they want to live with. You can't decide now. This is the start | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
of a long process. To have a conscience vote now is immaterial | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
because it is further down the road. It's the detail you need to vote. It | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
is almost a trend within the SNP party to not accept the outcomes of | :32:40. | :32:41. | |
referendums. APPLAUSE | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
I voted to remain but by except that the outcome was to leave, and I | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
don't think that MPs can then change the decision was made by millions of | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
people democratically. Angus Robertson, is the SNP really | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
just heading towards divorce from the UK on this issue? First off, I | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
totally recognise there was a majority across the UK to leave the | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
EU. There was a majority in England and in Wales. There was a majority | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
in Scotland to remain in the EU, which is why the Scottish Government | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
is working hard to reach a compromise with the UK Government to | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
find a deal that can satisfy all of us. I think, on such a big issue, it | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
behoves the British Prime Minister and Scotland's First Minister to try | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
and find that arrangement. That is why more information has been | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
published on this by the Scottish Government than from the UK | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
Government to date. That is where things are now. What happens when | :33:47. | :33:53. | |
the UK Government then says, I am sorry, we are not prepared to | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
respect the result in Scotland, to work with the Scottish Government, | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
to find a solution that satisfies everybody across these islands? It | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
is like saying we have to recognise the people of London who voted | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
exactly the same way. APPLAUSE | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
Why Scotland? What about London? I support the | :34:16. | :34:23. | |
case by the Mayor of London that the UK Government should negotiate with | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
the importance of the City of London in mind, so that a deal can be | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
reached that is not disadvantageous to the city, or similarly for the | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
car industry in the North of England. We know there will have to | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
be an arrangement for Northern Ireland, and that is no laughing | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
matter, because it is super important to get a deal that works | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
for Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic. We need to recognise there | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
are different priorities in different parts of these islands. At | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
this stage, before getting to an independence referendum issue, the | :34:57. | :34:58. | |
Scottish Government is aiming to try and reach an agreement with the UK | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
Government. And I hope the UK Government is prepared to do that. | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
How long until another Scottish referendum, which you look as though | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
you are heading for? If there is going to be a Scottish referendum it | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
is because the UK Government has not been prepared to work with the | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
Scottish Government, which has an elected mandate to try and reach | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
this heel. I think that is why the UK Government should work with the | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
Scottish Government. Angus come EU said that Theresa needs to find a | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
deal. You said that Theresa needs to renegotiate a special elation chip | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
for London. You have then said you will not vote through the enabling | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
legislation which enables her to start a negotiating process. How is | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
she meant to find a deal and negotiate on behalf of London and | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
the devolved administrations when you will vote against the bill that | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
enables her to do so? How can we possibly give the green light to a | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
Prime Minister who is not prepared to give us any details of what she | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
is prepared to negotiate? If she were to outline the fact that she | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
can... Actually sit down and have the gauche nations. Which she can't | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
do. The Prime Minister was saying she will meet with devolved | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
governments on Monday and that is a good thing. But we need to see some | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
progress. Why would we allow her to have carte blanche to do whatever a | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
UK Tory government wants to do without us having any assurances | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
that she will negotiate in our interests. The woman in the second | :36:31. | :36:38. | |
row from the back. Angus mentioned majorities but forgot to mention one | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
specific majority, which is that the majority of Scottish people voted to | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
stay in the UK, and the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU, and | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
Scotland needs to accept that result, just like London. | :36:52. | :36:52. | |
APPLAUSE The man in white. | :36:53. | :37:08. | |
What I want to know is, dodgy Diane kept saying there will be a Tory | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
Brexit that she does not like. What is a Labour Brexit? A Labour | :37:13. | :37:22. | |
Brexit... Let me finish. First of all, a Labour Brexit would put jobs | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
and the economy first. What is that? If you let me finish, a Labour | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
Brexit would put jobs and the economy first. It would be a huge | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
blow for manufacturing and the City of London if we come out of the City | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
of London and also completely out of the customs union. It will be. We | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
are putting jobs and living standards first. Theresa May is | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
putting the issue of immigration first, which brings me to what Geoff | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
said. He hinted something about immigration. Let me just say this, | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
there is no question that some people voted to leave about | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
immigration. But you made a blatant statement. I don't disagree that | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
some people did, but it was a blanket statement. Stop saying, let | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
me make, and just make the point. Just in order to get through the | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
topics. Let her speak. There is no question some people voted on the | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
immigration issue, and also no question that we saw a rise in | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
racist attacks, including in this city, in the wake of the Brexit | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
vote. On the question of immigration, the audience will | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
forgive me, as the daughter of immigrants, if I remind them that | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
immigrants have made London a great city. Nobody is disputing that. We | :38:41. | :38:48. | |
will defend them, including EU migrants, although it is a very | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
negative climate to say these things. We have been round that | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
course several times. Not always when you are on the panel, but | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
often. I think we should move on. We are two thirds of the way through | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
the programme, and because of the woman who rang up to say, please, | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
not Brexit or Trump, I think we should try something else. | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
We're in Wallasey next week, and the week after | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
Should GPs be able to charge certain patients for procedures or aspects | :39:17. | :39:37. | |
of care? It was a suggestion that made the news today from a GP in | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
Oxfordshire that family doctors should be able to charge for evening | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
and weekend appointments, as a way of helping the financial problems of | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
the National Health Service. Geoff Norcott. Yes, I think they should. I | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
know it is unpopular, I know what a religion the NHS is. There were some | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
statistics today that there are 14 million missed appointments every | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
year. To say there is not an obvious solution is not an excuse to do | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
nothing. You should not have a hall of shame outside the surgery where | :40:12. | :40:13. | |
people speculate on what you might have gone there for. But you should | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
do something pragmatic. When you talk about reforming the NHS, people | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
hold up Sweden and Northern European health services as an example. A lot | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
of those countries pay for a share of their health care as well. This | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
is a unique time of people having a bigger population in this country, | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
greater life expectancy. To think you can carry on doing what you did | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
before seems naive. Are we heading for a paid for National Health | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
Service? It is not paid for. The question was about GP out of hours, | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
right. Whether patients should pay for certain aspects of their care. | :40:54. | :41:00. | |
The report I read was about GP out of hours surgery but I think it is a | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
reasonable place to start. Possibly with the same exemption is that you | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
have for dental care. If you are pregnant, unemployed or elderly, | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
obviously you are exempt, but it seems reasonable that people should | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
contribute. Are you talking about just out of hours stuff, or when | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
people are very drunk and get ill as a result of their behaviour? | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
Something like that, or not attending appointments, missed | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
appointments. Certain aspects. This doctor's idea was that you would pay | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
for evening and weekend appointments. Yes, but they also | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
mentioned about certain things like vasectomies and removing moles. The | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
thing is, there is one issue where someone says it sounds like a good | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
idea. You have a 24-year-old who has fallen over in Accident Emergency | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
because he is drunk. Why doesn't he pay for his care? Someone wants to | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
go at 9pm to the GP because they are busy at work, why can't they pay for | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
it? Where do you draw the line? When do you say someone's behaviour has | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
got them in hospital? Do you charge a diabetic who has not regulated | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
their blood properly for going to hospital? I have a condition where I | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
sometimes have epileptic seizures caused by insomnia and anxiety. If I | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
get into 80s and have a seizure, do I have to pay for it because I | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
caused it? And do you think everyone who wants to go to the doctors at | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
evenings and weekends is automatically working in a good job | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
the rest of the time? Perhaps they are shift workers, not that well | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
off, perhaps they can't afford to pay more. So I don't think we should | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
be paying for that, but I do think as a nation we have to pay more for | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
our NHS. It is the lowest cost health care almost in the world for | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
what we are getting. We are not putting enough in. All of the | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
politicians from the main parties think it is anathema and political | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
death to suggest we should pay more for that. I think if they just said, | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
a penny more on income tax and you will have a perfect NHS that will | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
look after you much better, most of us would be fine with it. I think | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
they should just do that. APPLAUSE | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
I am tired of hearing that the reason the NHS is failing is because | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
we are living longer. We live longer because we have a | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
good NHS. When will the government stop hiding behind newspapers and | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
let everyone know it is the PFI schemes and the funding of social | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
care that is causing these problems at the moment? You, sir, with the | :43:30. | :43:38. | |
glasses. I sort of despair at the tone of the debate, because it | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
sounds good in principle, it really does. It would take a lot of boxes | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
but would be a bureaucratic nightmare maintaining that type of | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
system. The biggest thing to talk about, talking to the politicians, | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
is PFI. What is going on with that? We bailed out the banks, maybe now | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
we should bail out the NHS, because it is getting bad. What is it about | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
PFI, private Finance initiative, that you object to? Interest rates. | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
A lot of these were signed by both Labour and the Coalition Government. | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
I don't know what the status is. I don't know if anyone has taken out a | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
payday loan. I haven't. What you hear what they are like. I think the | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
comparison of PFI being like payday loans over the NHS, I think that is | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
what is going on and we need to bailout. The government can borrow | :44:34. | :44:35. | |
money and a lot cheaper than PFI. Going back to the idea of paying for | :44:36. | :44:49. | |
specific aspects of health care, what about those that have a lack of | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
economic resources? Are they denied the necessary care? There is a point | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
that has been missed about this. The question was asked about NHS GPs | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
because, at the moment, if you want to have private procedures, whatever | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
they may be, you can do that. Let's not lose sight of the fact that you | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
have that option if you want. I go back to this question. It's about | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
that then that we value, I think all of us on the panel value a National | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
Health Service. We understand the pressures it under. Do I believe | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
that GPs being able to charge their patients within the NHS is the thin | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
end of the privatisation wench? I absolutely believe that that is what | :45:33. | :45:39. | |
it is and I'm not in favour of that happeneding. We should have a public | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
NHS free at point need. You, with the red tie on. I think there two | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
different issues. The first issue is that, if you have to go on and | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
evening or weekend, because you can't do any other times, then you | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
have the right because you contribute to the National Health | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
Service. On the other hand, if you want that service for other reasons, | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
for example, you are drunk or because you miss the appointment, | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
then you should be treated differently. If you miss your | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
appointment and you don't phone in advance to cancel it, then yes, you | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
should be given a first warning, second warning then, I'm sorry, you | :46:26. | :46:27. | |
are at the back of the queue. To show a bit of commitment and | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
appreciation to the fact that you are receiving the service. Diane | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
Abbott, what do you think of that point we have often heard that about | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
people who don't turn up? There have been schemes to deal with this like | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
texting and reminding people, but on the general point that people paying | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
for GP services, I'd be against it for this reason. Jeff talked about | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
exemptions, but the people you would put off going to see their GP are | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
exactly the people that should go and see their GP, the elderly, the | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
poor, people with children. Let me take one issue, cancer. We have the | :47:08. | :47:15. | |
worst cancer out turns in Europe because people get diagnosed late. | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
It seems to me, if you start charging, the danger is that people | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
will put off going to the GP and will be diagnosed with serious | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
issues like cancer even later. People often go to the GP about one | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
thing and the GP discovers another thing. Anything that puts people off | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
going to their GP cannot be good for health outcomes in this country. | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
APPLAUSE I was glad you referred to the | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
dental system, because I went to see my dentist earlier this week and had | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
a tooth extraction under the NHS, costing ?53. This is an indication | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
of the direction of travel. This is where we are going. People have been | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
talking about the idea that there are moves to privatise the NHS. | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
Actually, this process has been going on for quite a long time, and | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
that's the direction we are moving and I think we need to be alive to | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
the real forms that this will take. It's not going to be done at a | :48:17. | :48:21. | |
stroke, openly. It's going to be done bit by bit and gradually | :48:22. | :48:24. | |
acclimatising us the idea that we have to pay for this and that. And | :48:25. | :48:31. | |
is that a good idea? Know, an extremely bad idea and it's the way | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
we get led blindly into a position that most of us do not want. James | :48:36. | :48:42. | |
Cleverly. You might want to make a note of this in your diary, because | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
it's not going to happen very often, but I agree with Diane on this one. | :48:47. | :48:54. | |
The thing that concerns me about this proposal, remember, it's a | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
proposal that came from an NHS professional, not from the | :49:01. | :49:02. | |
government or a Conservative politician, is that it would, like | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
Diane says, put off the very people. I have sat in an ambulance call | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
centre, call handling centre, and I have listened to the kind of calls | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
with people demanding that an ambulance gets sent to them because | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
they have got a broken finger, and they get very direct. And what is | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
remarkable in its absence are the voices of the elderly, who are often | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
very conscious that they are imposing on others. Diane is right. | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
If we allowed the impression to be created that you shouldn't go to the | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
GP if you feel unwell or you are concerned about your health, I think | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
it would have a dire consequence, so on this one, I think the answer is | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
simple. They should not be charges. I want to go on to last question. | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
Ross Curtis, please. Given the recent strike chaos and announcement | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
of an increase in fares, should the railways be nationalised? Southern | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
Rail, affecting a lot of people in London, have been on strike for | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
weeks and weeks, and the Tube has been on strike again, so should the | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
railways be nationalised? Yes, but with one caveat, which is that the | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
government effectively is running Southern at the moment and they are | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
not doing a terribly good job of it. They have given the franchise to | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
Govia Thameslink and they have guaranteed that company ?1 billion | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
per year. They are taking all the financial hits of the strike | :50:36. | :50:37. | |
themselves, the government, ie us, the taxpayer, so all of the strikes | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
and fair penalty repayments and everything else is coming out of our | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
pockets, not the train operators. They are guaranteed their money. So | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
nationalising wouldn't make any difference? We should nationalised | :50:55. | :50:56. | |
because it would be better than now but we have to have it run by | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
somebody competent, and that isn't this government. Certainly not Chris | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
Grayling. I think the strike chaos, just today on the central line in | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
London there was a strike. Even though I vote Conservative, I | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
respect the right of people to form unions and to take strike action. | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
But there are no socialists when you are waiting 25 minutes for a Tube. | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
Even Jeremy Corbyn would be throwing down his red book in disgust. I | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
suppose I can speak for the normal person. It's very hard, with this | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
strike action continuing, there is a sympathy well that could run dry | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
eventually, and I think that's beginning to happen. The woman up | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
there. East Coast was run by the government for many years and they | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
did a very efficient and comfortable service and paid millions back to | :51:51. | :51:57. | |
the Treasury. Now, it's run by Virgin and the Treasury doesn't | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
benefit any more. Ross, what do you think? Obviously, as you can tell | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
from the accent, I'm not from here. I was going to talk about Southern | :52:08. | :52:15. | |
foot about East Coast, as the lady said, tonight, if I had to go home | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
tonight after the show, it would cost me ?150 for a single ticket to | :52:20. | :52:28. | |
get to Durham. ?150. Look at the franchises that have run East Coast | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
for the last 20 years. Would it be cheaper if the government run it in | :52:37. | :52:45. | |
the long it could be. Is then not talk of Southern Rail being taken | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
back into...? It's worth remembering certain things. Ross, I'm a bit | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
older than you buy a couple of months, maybe. Don't flatter | :52:56. | :53:06. | |
yourself! But I'm old enough to remember, and Geoff is a | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
professional comedian, when the staple of the British comedy circuit | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
was the dire performance of British rail. The idea that somehow the | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
government running big entities like the rail service is an automatic | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
guarantee of success, I think, unfortunately, is not the case. So I | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
think that is a simple solution to a complicated problem and not the | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
right way forward. One thing also worth bearing in mind is that the | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
bit of the railway system which is run in the public sector, Network | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
Rail, has been one of the problems in many of the difficulties we have | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
had with rail around the country. I think Chris Grayling is absolutely | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
right to say that Network Rail and the franchise holders now have to | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
work properly in an integrated way to reduce the delays, to get better | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
quality services. That is a step in the right direction. I just don't | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
buy the idea that bringing the railways back into national | :54:08. | :54:10. | |
ownership will make them any better than they are at the moment, but I | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
suspect it would make them worse. On Southern, I think the situation is a | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
scandal. It has been a scandal for a long time and I think, at the very | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
least, Southern should be handed over to Transport for London. I know | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
there was a dispute today, but generally Transport for London as a | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
whole does not have the problem is that Southern has. I live on the | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
London Underground route, and it is immaculate, run by Transport for | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
London. On the general questions of the railways and ownership, somebody | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
said, what does the Labour Party stand for? One thing that we stand | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
for is bringing the railways back into public ownership. We believe it | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
could be done at minimum cost of each franchise falls due bringing it | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
back into the public. The truth is, under the current system, at the | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
very least, millions and millions of public money is being spent to | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
subsidise private operators, so what do we stand for? Bringing railways | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
into public ownership. I think we need to make a decision on this | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
because, at the moment, it is not acceptable. There is a breakdown in | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
communication. What commuters have been going through in the last few | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
months, almost a year, it can't carry on. Whether it is taken back | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
by the government or something else, somebody has to change the | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
situation. Unless it does just go on. You, sir. And then I will | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
continue. Just slightly rewinding the tape, does America really care | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
about our relationship with America? It seems to me... I thought we were | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
talking about the railways. This woman who rang up and said, please, | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
not Trump and Brexit, she will not like what you are saying! No, I | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
think... Lets stick to this. We only have a minute or so left. Sorry you | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
didn't get in early. Yes, you, the woman there. Rein I think a real | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
concern is that provision wasn't made for failures of the franchises. | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
We are talking about it being brought back under public control. | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
Diane's point is that that would have to happen when the franchise | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
falls due. I heard there would be no service for six months for us to | :56:33. | :56:34. | |
take back control of those franchises. It seems to me there is | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
an immediate problem and a potential medium-term solution, because we are | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
mixing up to things, the Southern issue and also the ongoing strike | :56:46. | :56:47. | |
action in London that people have raised. On the first point, I think | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
that everybody wishes for better industrial relations, so the efforts | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
being made to try and encourage people to get together, I totally | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
agree there is a right for people to be represented by their trade union, | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
and it is right that Transport for London is trying to provide the most | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
efficient service and I think we need to support the London mayor in | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
trying to get improved industrial relations together. That is a | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
solution to something we may be able to gain in the short term. On the | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
medium-term issue, on the franchise holders and are they providing | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
adequate service? Lily in the south of England that is not the case. I | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
don't want to get involved in English politics, because it a did | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
the -- it is a devolved issue in Scotland, but I would suggest you | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
should be open to allowing public sector bids and, if they can provide | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
a better service, one should be open to that, but that will not fix the | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
short-term problem that so many of us who spent time in London are | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
having to suffer. You have had your hand up for some time. This is | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
exactly why we shouldn't privatise the NHS, because it will not make | :57:56. | :57:57. | |
any difference to the service. APPLAUSE | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
Thank you for that. Our time is up. We have got to stop. | :58:04. | :58:05. | |
We're in Wallasey next week, and the week after | :58:06. | :58:07. | |
To come and take part in our audience, in Wallasey | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
or Torquay, go to our website, or call 0330 123 99 88. | :58:12. | :58:18. | |
If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes | :58:19. | :58:20. | |
My thanks to our panel, to all of you who came here to this part of | :58:21. | :58:31. | |
north London to take part in tonight's programme. Many thanks to | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
you all. Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night. | :58:36. | :59:11. | |
It's just pain, but it doesn't feel like pain, | :59:12. | :59:14. |