02/02/2017 Question Time


02/02/2017

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Tonight we're in Wallasey on Merseyside.

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The former coalminer, now Conservative Party Chairman,

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The Shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, who nominated

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Jeremy Corbyn for leader in 2015, Rebecca Long Bailey.

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Founder of the counter-extremism campaign Quilliam, Maajid Nawaz.

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Lord Sugar's adviser on The Apprentice for a decade

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and now host of Countdown, Nick Hewer.

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And the co-editor of the website The Conservative

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As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,

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You can push the red button and see what else is being said. Our first

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question from Christian Coventry. Should Trump's state visit to the UK

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be blocked in light of his immigration ban? Patrick McLoughlin?

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No. We disagree with the executive order he issued last week, but he is

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President of the United States. The United States is the most important

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trading country for us and I think it would be wrong to withdraw the

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invite after it has been extended to him. Rebecca Long Bailey. History

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will judge us by our actions on this and we are right to foster the

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special so-called special relationship with America. They are

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our best friend, but do you know what best friends do? They tell each

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other the truth in a respectful way, and that is what we should have done

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this week. We weren't enough off the mark.

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APPLAUSE What would you have the Prime

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Minister do? Say, remember that invitation, it

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doesn't count any more? It is inappropriate to condone Donald

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Trump's values. The Muslim ban he put forward was divisive and

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completely irrational. It was done on Holocaust Memorial Day of all

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days. One quote has haunted me since last week in light of what has

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happened. It is a quote from Primo Levy, it Holocaust survivor. He said

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that monsters exist but they are too few in number to be truly dangerous.

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More dangerous are the common men, the functionaries who are ready to

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believe an actor without asking questions. Now was the time we

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needed to ask questions. Laura Perrins. Of course the invite should

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not be withdrawn. President Trump has not done anything wrong. What

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his first moral and constitutional duty is is to protect the citizens

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of the United States. That is what this measure does. It is not

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anti-Muslim, it is anti-terrorist. Seven states, a list that President

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Obama had already brought up. I have a really serious moral issue with

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this measure being compared to the Holocaust, and I think it is

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important to draw the distinction. The Holocaust was state agencies

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acting against their own citizens, rounding up their own citizens and

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liquidise in them, men, women and children. What the President of the

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United States is doing is protecting his own citizens by saying to

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foreign citizens, first of all, you don't have a right to come here, and

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secondly, I am not happy with the vetting procedure that is in place,

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so we will pause any bees you have for 90 days, in order to protect all

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of the United States citizens, including the 3 million Muslims

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there. I think what Labour are doing is essentially standing on the

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graves of 7 million Jewish deaths to make a political point.

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APPLAUSE I will come to you.

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My question is for Laura. I am an Iraqi who lived in the United

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Kingdom for 15 years. The Kurdish people have been placed around the

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world, and have been the most effective force fighting Isis. The

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Kurdish people carry Iraqi passports. The ban affects the

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Kurdish people that Donald Trump said are the most effective force

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fighting Isis. How did you feel about the ban when it was announced?

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In my opinion, Donald Trump, as President of the United States, is

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allowed to do whatever decision he does. But he cannot say, you are at

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the front of fighting Isis, the most effective nation fighting terrorism

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one minute, and the next minute say, you are in the same box with them,

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categorised the same as them. APPLAUSE

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Do you think he should come on a state visit to Britain as a guest of

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the Queen? I don't think so. In the third row.

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People who want to come to America have to get a Visa. That means they

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are a temporary citizen of the country. If he is invoking the right

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of these temporary citizens, how can that be right? So what is your view

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about the state visit? He should not come, he has been divisive and

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institutionally racist. Nick Hewer. There are two parts. The invitation

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and the ban. Theresa May rushed off to Washington, first, special

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relationship, let's invite him, let's capture his heart, make sure

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that we have this great relationship. Donald Trump is a

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shark. He doesn't know what he did yesterday, he is not altogether sure

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what he is doing today. He is eating for the day. If she thinks that she

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has a deal, she is sorely mistaken. Regarding the ban, I don't know how

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many people read Patrick Cockburn's piece, a great journalist,

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recognised as an authority on this. He said that Trump has turned

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himself into the greatest recruiting Sergeant for Isis and Al-Qaeda.

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Because what he has done, with that long winded signature of his, is to

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turn every Muslim in the world and place them where they stand in the

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eyes of the greatest nation in the world. They think less of the United

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States now, and that in inexorable elites to recruit joining, rather

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than fighting Isis. That is my view. There are two parts, I agree with

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Nick. I agree with Nick, says a Lib Dem. There are two parts, the ban

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and the state visit. First, it is important to acknowledge the fact of

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the aftermath of what has happened in Quebec. Six worshippers were

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killed in a mosque, a couple of days after completely irresponsible

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noises were made by the President of the most powerful country in the

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world. Those six are real human beings. They were human beings,

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killed while performing an act of worship by far right supremacist who

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decided, being a fan of this sort of rhetoric, that these sorts of

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people, two of them immigrants to Canada, need to be eliminated off

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the face of the earth. Consequences of language are very real. Trump

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does not call it a Muslim ban, but all of his rhetoric, up until the

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election itself, was using the words, we are going to stop Muslims

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coming into this country. And the executive order itself excludes

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Christians. So you would forgive people be using words like a Muslim

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ban, even though it is not technically correct. Let's also not

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dance on the grave of those six on a technicality by saying it is not a

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Muslim ban. Let Laura speak. You seem to know a lot about a crime

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that was just committed. It is horrific, but you have no evidence

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to say what you have just said. About what? The terrible crime in

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Quebec. What part is wrong? Let me finish. I think she is saying that

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the cause being what Donald Trump did is not proven. You have said

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that that there is no evidence. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the

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world. This affects seven countries. Iraq, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Libya and

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Yemen. They were designated by a Obama as terrorist enclaves. The

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President has a constitutional and moral right to protect US citizens

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from the real terrorist threat coming from those countries. To say

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otherwise is merely grandstanding, and saying things you have no

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evidence for at all. Obama noted those countries on a specific threat

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at that time. None of the national is from those countries have ever

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cost any lives. Yes, they have. Excuse me, Mohammed Atta and his

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pals were Egyptian and Saudis but they are not on the list.

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APPLAUSE Finish your point and I will come

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back to you. Perhaps we should be on the list,

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because Robert Reid was crossing the Atlantic, trying to explode his shoe

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and take the aircraft down. Britain is not an unstable country. All of

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those seven, other than Iran, our war-torn countries. Britain is a

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stable country. The fact that Britain and all the European Muslims

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are not included, and the vast majority of the world's Muslims are

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not included goes to show how wrong it is to say it is a muslin ban. It

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is an anti-terrorist ban and something needs to be done about

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Isis. They are a barbaric organisation and there is no way

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they should be allowed... I am probably the only one on this panel

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who works every single day... I am probably the only one on this panel

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who has full-time, every day, trying to do something about Isis. The

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seven countries named have not been responsible for any home-grown

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attack across Europe. Can I actually finished the point I was going to

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make? I think everybody has heard a good deal from you two. I would like

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to hear their comments. While I agree with all that has been said

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about Donald Trump, the invitation has been issued by Her Majesty The

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Queen. Surely we have to go along with her invitation and access Mr

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Trump and welcome him, even though we don't agree with it?

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APPLAUSE And you, in the middle.

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You mention the fact that maybe we should be on the ban. I am on it,

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because as well as those seven countries that you have quoted, add

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another nine onto that. They ban any person who has a Jewish passport.

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Because I actually have a Jewish stamp and I went to Israel. I am not

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allowed to go to at least eight of those countries you have named, so

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the ban already exists for other people. So have we got any right to

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be lecturing others? It is clearly racist and I agree

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with the panellist who says this encouraged the attack on the

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innocent worshippers in the mosque in Canada. A lot of respectable

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politicians like Trump and some closer to home have blood on their

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hands when they make statements which stir people up and appear to

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give them permission to attack Muslims and immigrants. I think it

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is a disgrace. If Trump does come here, I can guarantee there will be

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such a turnout to let him know he is not welcome. It will be the biggest

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demonstration we have seen for years.

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APPLAUSE What is your comment on what the

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former head of the Foreign Office said, that ministers, you are in the

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Cabinet, have put the Queen in a very difficult position by inviting

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Trump here at this time and with such alacrity?

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You are talking about Lord Ricketts. Look, Donald Trump is President of

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the United States. It is the start of his presidential time in office.

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He has just been elected. Nick just said the United States is one of the

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greatest countries in the world. It is essential that we have a good

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relationship. And by having that relationship, the Prime Minister was

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able to instruct both the Foreign Secretary and the Home Secretary to

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ensure that the ban did not apply to anybody with a British passport. So

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we did have influence, we will have influence. It is no good everybody

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throwing up their hands and somehow saying the American people have got

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it wrong. The American people elected President Trump and we have

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two respective as a head of state or a very important country and we have

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to work with him. I remember not dissimilar kinds of thinking when

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Ronald Reagan first became President of the United States, the horror and

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shock that was being exposed by many people. He turned out to be one of

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America's greatest presidents. You are predicting that for Donald

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Trump? I am not predicting anything. He has been President for less than

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ten days. You have been counting. Ten days, 240 hours. We must move

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on. We're in Torquay next

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week, and the week after Dean Marshall, please, your

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question? Should the 114 MPs who voted against the Brexit Bill look

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for new jobs? Should those who voted against the

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implementation of Article 50 yesterday be looking for new jobs on

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the grounds presumably your view is that they defied the will of the

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British people in the referendum. Rebecca? I think those MPs in many

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cases have made agonising decisions, especially if they were in remain

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seats. Ultimately my view is that I believe in democracy, I didn't

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campaign to leave the EU, I campaigned to remain but I respect

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the will of the people. We had a democratic referendum and we need to

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respect that referendum. That is why I voted to trigger Article 50

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yesterday. We have to realise that this issue didn't just divide

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parties and it didn't divide the Houses of Parliament, it divided

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families and, now is the time, as politicians, whichever party we are

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in, our job now is to unify the country and demand the best deal we

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can possibly get that's in the interests of the people, not in the

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interests of the wealthy elite because we have already seen

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murmurings from Philip Hammond that he's threatening to turn us into a

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tax haven. We want a deal that benefits communities like Wallasey

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and like my community in Salford and Eccles that has been starved of

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investment for decades. APPLAUSE.

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What about the question though which is whether people should be looking

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for new jobs by failing to - a lot was said in the House of Commons

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about that from Ken Clarke on the Tory side for instance - they all

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voted in favour because that was what the country decided in a

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referendum where everybody was entitled to vote? In terms of

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looking for new jobs, I think people made an agonising choice, they had

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to vote in their heart and in line with what their constituency wanted

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them to do, but the party position certainly the Labour Party position

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was to uphold the democratic will of the people. OK. Now we'll take an

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empathetic approach and an understandable approach to the MPs

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that have voted against the party whip because they were put in

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difficult positions. But I think there's a lot of discussions going

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to be taking place over the next few weeks and we have heard the tip of

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the iceberg when it comes to the agonising decisions that many people

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will have to make considering Brexit.

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Laura? I would separate your question out slightly. Anybody whose

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constituency voted to leave and they voted against it should certainly

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resign because they're antidemocratic and not serving their

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own constituencies and defying the will of the people. Also anybody who

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had a migraine or passed in a sicky note, they should deft nitly resign.

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APPLAUSE. -- definitely resign.

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Nick? I cried myself to sleep when Sunderland fell, I woke up with a

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sodden pillow because I was an absolute remainor. The truth is,

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there was a referendum and the remainers lost. That's democracy,

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sometimes it hurts and feels like a punch on the jaw but you've just got

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to live with it. Therefore I would absolutely agree with Rebecca

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because, you know, we've got to shut up and we've all got to pull

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together. I think Corbyn, and I'm not a fan, to be quite honest with

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you, was right to put three line whip on his members and those that

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decided to object whether they should look for another job or not

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is up to them. But actually, when the people vote, go into a corner

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and have a cry, then pull yourself together and go with the vote.

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APPLAUSE. You, Sir? I think we should bear in

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mind that MPs are not mandated, they're representatives, so

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therefore they should act in the way that they best believe represents

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the interests of their constituents. That will be different depending on

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the constituency they represent. But, I think they've got to follow

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their conscience. But if they follow their conscience, surely on the

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basis of what we know about the position of the House of Commons

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before the referendum, they'd have voted against Article 50? But

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they've obviously taken into account the result of the referendum and

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they've made a calculation based on what they feel is right in those

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circumstances. Well some have and some haven't because some have

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switched and some haven't. It depends on the person. I wouldn't

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want to put myself in their mind. If I was an MP I would have voted

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against. Patrick McLoughlin was a remainor, argued for remain didn't

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you? Yes. How did you square your conscience with voting with the

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Prime Minister, was that a difficult decision for you? It was

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straightforward because I voted for a referendum. I voted for a

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referendum and I accepted the result of the referendum and my

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constituency almost followed the nation, it was 52 to leave and 48 to

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stay in, so I followed what my constituents wanted. As far as MPs

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looking for another job, a number of them are. There's already two

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by-elections of people deserting the Labour Party. They can't get out

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quick enough. So That's taking place in Stoke-on-Trent and Copeland. If

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they actually voted for the referendum, then they are duty bound

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to accept the result of the referendum and the vote for the

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referendum was overwhelmingly in favour of it.

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The woman up there on the left? You must be having a laugh asking me to

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just kind of sit in a corner and cry and make do with this decision. I'm

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a European citizen. Neither did I vote for this idiotic advisory

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referendum that has turned my life up side down. I have an English

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husband, I have a German English child and can now see what I do with

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this and how I reconcile the shaking up to my identity that this

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referendum's caused, a referendum that has been campaigned on lies on

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exaggeration, do not listen to the experts and...

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APPLAUSE. And now you are calling it the will

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of the people. This was not the will of the people. This was such a

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complex situation that should never, never have been decided like this,

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ever. . APPLAUSE.

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So you think the 17.5 million were deluded? I think anyone who thinks

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that England will walk away from this divorce from the EU with a

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better deal than they have right now is delusional, absolutely.

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Absolutely. OK.

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Jeremy Corbyn, between 1997 and 2007, he rebelled the most against

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this. This is a deep sense of irony what is happening now with the

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frontbenchers rebelling against him. I don't think they should lose their

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jobs, perhaps they should find a new political party frankly because

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under Corbyn's leadership, I think there is a new schism, a new way of

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dividing British politics around the remain and leave debate. Many of the

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so-called moderate Labour MPs are not Labour any more. Labour is now a

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left-wing party which it rightly should be and the Tories are where

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they are on Brexit. I think those MPs who aren't happy under his

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leadership should go. They need to start articulating a vision in a

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post-Brexit Britain and it's un-Nat that we are still talking about the

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past -- unfortunate. Conducting a Parliamentary debate without a white

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paper not betraying the will of the people? Why do you think it's

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betraying them? I feel like it's unrepresentative that these people

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are voting on an issue that they've not been informed by certain Select

:23:25.:23:27.

Committees. There's not been a certain amount of scrutiny on this

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current situation and it's been rushed through Parliament to meet

:23:32.:23:36.

this arbitrary March deadline which personally I don't believe is

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correct. Rebecca? We got that white paper

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today and quite frankly it wasn't worth the paper it was written on.

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It was very vague, it was very ambiguous, it didn't tell us much

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more than we knew already. It set out Theresa May's 12 ambiguous

:23:55.:23:59.

points. There was a factual point, a bar graph, chart within the paper,

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that stated that UK workers were going to get 14 weeks holiday. You

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can imagine my office was beside themselves when they heard this,

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only to find out a couple of hours later that it was a misprint and

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it's actually 5.6 weeks. The Government can't even get its white

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paper right, how can we even trust them to get the deal out of the EU

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right? I want to take a question from James fits Henry, please, about

:24:27.:24:30.

what actually is going on, because it refers to what happened today? In

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view of the Bank of England's growth forecast of 2% today, what's

:24:37.:24:39.

happened to Amageddon. Which Patrick, I have to remind you was

:24:40.:24:43.

what your side was saying was going to happen, we were going to have

:24:44.:24:46.

emergency budgets, tax increases a and all of that and none of that's

:24:47.:24:51.

happened? No, and that's when the lady earlier on said that they were

:24:52.:24:57.

lied to, I think both sides of the argument didn't certainly put its

:24:58.:25:01.

case. Did you anticipate things were going to go fine if we voted Brexit?

:25:02.:25:09.

I was concerned about whether we'd continue to get inward investment in

:25:10.:25:12.

this country. What's happened since Brexit is we have continued to get

:25:13.:25:16.

the inward investment. Is it all rosy from now on in your view?

:25:17.:25:21.

There's going to be two years of negotiations once we have triggered

:25:22.:25:26.

Article 50 and the answer to the gentleman there, the House of

:25:27.:25:30.

Commons voted for the principle second reading of the Bill, there's

:25:31.:25:34.

be committee stages for three days and the Bill has to go to the

:25:35.:25:38.

Lord's. We haven't been short of debate and we are certainly not

:25:39.:25:41.

going to be short of debate. It's about the outcome, not the debate.

:25:42.:25:46.

But the gentleman made the point... We are tonne another point now,

:25:47.:25:48.

whether the sun is shining and the clouds have gone, all the things you

:25:49.:25:54.

feared haven't come to pass? We still have not yet exited the

:25:55.:25:57.

European Union but there is no doubt that the Bank of England in its

:25:58.:26:01.

forecasts were wrong, as the Governor's made clear today. He's

:26:02.:26:07.

given revised growth forecasts. So look, the truth is, those of us who

:26:08.:26:11.

voted to remain and I voted to remain, have got to accept that we

:26:12.:26:14.

lost the debate and we lost the vote and we've now got to implement the

:26:15.:26:18.

will of the British people. We know that. You can't have a referendum

:26:19.:26:22.

and say, by the way, everybody got it wrong. You are arguing a

:26:23.:26:27.

different point. We are arguing about what is going to happen. Nick

:26:28.:26:33.

Hewer? Nothing's happened. The forecast has gone on. But the

:26:34.:26:38.

reality hasn't kicked in yet. Have the prices shot up? All I'm saying

:26:39.:26:44.

is, we won't know what the future holds until the deal's done with

:26:45.:26:52.

Europe. So it's no surprise that people are shopping away, why

:26:53.:26:58.

shouldn't they? Nothing's changed. It hasn't happened yet. Only

:26:59.:27:06.

sentiment's happened. A huge amount as changed. This wasn't just a

:27:07.:27:11.

civilised debate, it was a serious amount of bullying of the public in

:27:12.:27:17.

Britain to stay in the EU or else, that particularly came from George

:27:18.:27:20.

Osborne and, I'm afraid, Mark Carney. We were told there would be

:27:21.:27:23.

a punishment budget and that didn't happen. We were told that growth

:27:24.:27:26.

will collapse and that hasn't happened. Yet again, the Bank of

:27:27.:27:30.

England have upped their forecast. We were told the companies would

:27:31.:27:34.

flee the country and this wasn't just after we left the EU, it was

:27:35.:27:39.

immediately after the referendum, we were given dark forecasts that

:27:40.:27:43.

Amageddon wouldn't happen. The people were bullied, the people

:27:44.:27:48.

didn't listen, they thought that the EU was in serious difficulties and

:27:49.:27:51.

fought to regain their borders and they were totally right.

:27:52.:27:58.

APPLAUSE. Laura, do you think some say it will

:27:59.:28:06.

get tough again in two years' time and people will start to feel the

:28:07.:28:11.

pinch from leaving the EU? I don't have a crystal ball and, unlike

:28:12.:28:17.

certain politicians, I won't make forecasts that I don't know anything

:28:18.:28:23.

about unlike George Osborne. Britain is in a much, much stronger position

:28:24.:28:29.

than the rest of continental Europe. I wish continental Europe was

:28:30.:28:32.

stronger but Italy is basically bankrupt. Greece is bankrupt, Spain

:28:33.:28:36.

is bankrupt. When we were out of the EU, I can guarantee you the vast

:28:37.:28:40.

majority of people will see that it was a great decision for Britain, a

:28:41.:28:44.

great decision for Britain. Maajid?

:28:45.:28:50.

APPLAUSE. The truth is, look, and, as a

:28:51.:28:54.

remainor, hands down, we lost and the truth is none of us know how

:28:55.:29:00.

it's going to turn out. We shouldn't predict doom because it may turn out

:29:01.:29:04.

as a success. What I see at the moment, I see a vision, Theresa

:29:05.:29:07.

May's vision for Brexit and what she wants it to look like and the Prime

:29:08.:29:11.

Minister wants it to look like. What I don't see is those who're still in

:29:12.:29:16.

the remain camp, still beating that drum. Frankly we have to accept A

:29:17.:29:21.

that we lost and B what is the post-Brexit vision that those who're

:29:22.:29:24.

in the Remain camp have, for how to make sure it's a success going

:29:25.:29:28.

forward, because frankly we have lost the debate. We have got to

:29:29.:29:32.

accept that and there needs to be a liberal view as to what post-Brexit

:29:33.:29:37.

Britain looks like, that we can then use to hold the Prime Minister to

:29:38.:29:40.

account. There is no opposition at the moment. The person on the

:29:41.:29:45.

gangway in white? I was voting remain. At the very last minute, I

:29:46.:29:50.

changed my decision and went to leave. The reason because of that is

:29:51.:29:56.

because of, I go to a supermarket and a banana is straight. I'm just

:29:57.:30:01.

sick of the silly rules that come out of Europe and... Have the

:30:02.:30:07.

bananas changed? If you go to Aldi they're a bit bent. It was bananas

:30:08.:30:13.

what did it for you? No, it was more than bananas, it was the fact that

:30:14.:30:16.

there are opportunities out there that I feel we need to see as a

:30:17.:30:20.

country. And you're optimistic now, you are pleased the way you voted? I

:30:21.:30:26.

am. Rebecca, last word from you in terms of all things that have

:30:27.:30:29.

happened today and the economic forecast, doesn't it look much

:30:30.:30:32.

better than people like you thought it would be? The point the gentleman

:30:33.:30:38.

made about growth, don't be fooled, as Nick said we haven't seen

:30:39.:30:42.

anything yet, Article 50's not been triggered. If you look behind the

:30:43.:30:48.

growth figures, Mark Carney said our improved growth was based on

:30:49.:30:51.

consumer spending and in turn that consumer spending has been fuelled

:30:52.:30:55.

by household debt. That household debt is being fuelled by people

:30:56.:30:58.

who're having to borrow in order to make ends meet because they're not

:30:59.:31:02.

earning enough to live on. We have had a lost decade again, the bank

:31:03.:31:06.

stated this, a lost decade on earnings. Even the resolution

:31:07.:31:10.

foundation brought out a report saying we were on curse for the

:31:11.:31:14.

biggest increase in inequality since Thatcher, so our economy is not in

:31:15.:31:19.

fine shape, for a Brexit, and the Government needs to get its act

:31:20.:31:20.

together as quickly on possible. The statistics show the gap is

:31:21.:31:33.

narrowing, but you may be right about the future. A question from

:31:34.:31:40.

Steven Smiley, please. What proposals would the panel put in

:31:41.:31:45.

place to curb the millions being wasted on health tourism each year?

:31:46.:31:51.

Health tourism is allegedly stacking up a bill of nearly 300 million,

:31:52.:31:56.

depending on the figures you get, people coming and using the NHS and

:31:57.:32:00.

not paying for it. Nick Hewer, what would you do? I think what you do,

:32:01.:32:09.

actually, and I know it is hard and all the rest of it, but you have got

:32:10.:32:13.

to be paid for the service you provide. If you are not entitled to

:32:14.:32:20.

it as a national of this country. I remember my father years ago was on

:32:21.:32:28.

holiday in France. When his appendix popped, they wouldn't operate until

:32:29.:32:32.

they have the money. We thought this was very hard and unfair, but

:32:33.:32:39.

actually, perhaps it was not an unrealistic thing to do. People have

:32:40.:32:43.

got to pay if they are not entitled to get it free.

:32:44.:32:44.

APPLAUSE Having said that, I am not

:32:45.:32:57.

suggesting they should die on the operating table while someone is

:32:58.:33:00.

waiting to sign the check. But somewhere in the middle. I agree

:33:01.:33:08.

with Nick. It is very wrong that people are coming here to claim free

:33:09.:33:14.

health when they are not entitled to it. It is important to remember that

:33:15.:33:19.

it is not just a question of money. People who are living in Britain and

:33:20.:33:23.

have been paying into a system are actually being denied treatment, in

:33:24.:33:30.

part because of health tourism. Operations are being cancelled

:33:31.:33:33.

because hospitals and hospital trusts are not doing their best to

:33:34.:33:38.

regroup these costs. I don't think that is fair if you have paid into a

:33:39.:33:43.

system and somebody, a citizen of a different country, comes in and

:33:44.:33:47.

secures treatment they are not entitled to, morally or financially.

:33:48.:33:52.

It is a system that can't continue. I think it is part of the broader

:33:53.:33:57.

problem with the NHS overall. This is a small part of a much bigger

:33:58.:34:02.

problem. You, sir. I agree with Nick. I was in Spain with my

:34:03.:34:10.

daughter in 2001 and we had forgotten our form. She was 18

:34:11.:34:13.

months old and the only treatment they would give her was intravenous

:34:14.:34:20.

fluids to keep her alive. They would not give her any medication

:34:21.:34:26.

whatsoever. It took four days, and we had to pay for the accommodation

:34:27.:34:32.

costs. We got it refunded at the end. Right or wrong? I think it was

:34:33.:34:37.

completely wrong, especially with a child. ID checks could be of

:34:38.:34:47.

beginning. Health tourism is a serious problem. I don't think

:34:48.:34:51.

withholding operations, as in this case, is the way forward. But once

:34:52.:34:55.

you know they are not British, you have a way of making sure that

:34:56.:34:59.

people are billed for services. This is part of a wider problem, a huge

:35:00.:35:04.

funding gap in the NHS. 30 billion over the next five years just to

:35:05.:35:08.

keep it where it is, let alone to improve the thing. We have to look

:35:09.:35:13.

at serious reforms in a nonpartisan way. Some of the political parties

:35:14.:35:16.

are playing political football with this. But do you think this health

:35:17.:35:24.

tourism is a serious issue? The BBC have a documentary of a Nigerian

:35:25.:35:30.

woman who ran up a bill of 330,000. Compared with the overall debt of

:35:31.:35:36.

the NHS... Even if we recover all of those costs, it will not plug the

:35:37.:35:40.

hole that we have coming up, a huge crisis. I would put a penny on

:35:41.:35:45.

National Insurance, for example. I would pay an extra penny.

:35:46.:35:47.

APPLAUSE Mentioning the Nigerian lady who ran

:35:48.:35:56.

up half a million, she flew first to the United States where she was

:35:57.:35:58.

turned away. They clearly spotted something we

:35:59.:36:05.

didn't. And what do you feel about the issue? I will dispute what Nick

:36:06.:36:12.

says about paying into the system. We pay into the system. I think

:36:13.:36:17.

Laura was right on that. We don't get it for free, we pay for it. It

:36:18.:36:26.

is just after January 31. We have all paid our tax bills. To your

:36:27.:36:31.

right. I am proposing that if you don't pay you should not have access

:36:32.:36:37.

to the NHS. If people, for instance, boys been on benefits, the family

:36:38.:36:42.

has not worked for generations, should we stop them? Should we say,

:36:43.:36:46.

you have not been paying in so you do not have a right for it? Surely

:36:47.:36:52.

we have to look at people's need. Of course, there are some things that

:36:53.:36:56.

are not emergency, where we should not offer care. But where there is

:36:57.:37:01.

an emergency need, for instance with that child, or a ruptured appendix,

:37:02.:37:09.

you have to deal with it. You cannot not deal with emergencies. If people

:37:10.:37:14.

are coming for planned surgery, of course that is unacceptable. But if

:37:15.:37:18.

people are caught ill in our country, it is right that we look

:37:19.:37:23.

after them, because these are part of our British values. This is part

:37:24.:37:26.

of being British. APPLAUSE

:37:27.:37:31.

When I travel abroad, I take out medical insurance.

:37:32.:37:37.

The cost of a flight, for an extra couple of quid, take out medical

:37:38.:37:40.

insurance and that will solve the problem. The operative word was

:37:41.:37:49.

"Tourism". Our NHS and our country as a whole was built on the

:37:50.:37:53.

principle of fairness. Nobody thinks this is fair, per se, but what I

:37:54.:37:56.

would want from the government figures as to how much it cost to

:37:57.:38:01.

enforce this and how much they would recoup. We do not want hospitals

:38:02.:38:05.

turned into border patrols, turning away people in severe need of urgent

:38:06.:38:10.

care. Why is this issue coming up again? Last week, the government

:38:11.:38:15.

were trying to blame GPs not staying open long enough for the crisis in

:38:16.:38:19.

the NHS, and now we are hearing about health tourism. The NHS has

:38:20.:38:26.

been stripped of funding. In 2010, the government cemented a

:38:27.:38:29.

reorganisation of the NHS so big you can see it from outer space, to

:38:30.:38:34.

break it up and privatise it. That is their gender, their direction of

:38:35.:38:37.

travel, and the rest of us are going to suffer as a consequence.

:38:38.:38:38.

APPLAUSE The Public Accounts Committee said

:38:39.:38:53.

that recouping costs from foreign nationals is chaotic, in their

:38:54.:38:55.

report this week. What are you going to do about it?

:38:56.:39:00.

We do have two address it. A couple of points I would make, without

:39:01.:39:06.

wanting to use a well worn phrase, I do agree with Nick. People in this

:39:07.:39:11.

country pay for the health service. It is not free, but costs us a lot

:39:12.:39:16.

of money. I do have sympathy with the gentleman who talked about his

:39:17.:39:23.

experience in Spain. If someone is in urgent need, I would not like to

:39:24.:39:27.

have to wait to find out if they have got cover. I think that should

:39:28.:39:30.

be done and then we should recoup the money afterwards. That is the

:39:31.:39:36.

way forward. I do not want to see anybody denied emergency medicine if

:39:37.:39:41.

they were so in need of it. That is not the way that Britain operates

:39:42.:39:44.

and it is not the way Britain will operate. As far as what Rebecca was

:39:45.:39:50.

saying, we have committed to put extra money into the health service.

:39:51.:39:57.

We are, which was more than what you did at the last general election.

:39:58.:40:02.

4.6 billion cut from social care, 2.45 billion deficit for hospitals,

:40:03.:40:10.

the worst on record so far. 600 million from mental health. The

:40:11.:40:15.

Labour Party always talk about spending money, not raising money

:40:16.:40:18.

and learning that money to afford services. When we came into office

:40:19.:40:24.

we inherited the largest deficit of any country -- that any government

:40:25.:40:31.

ever inherited. This is a bigger amount than any Labour government in

:40:32.:40:37.

history. I wonder if Theresa May thinks she can get some help from

:40:38.:40:41.

the Americans to help with our NHS. What do you mean? It seems she has

:40:42.:40:48.

been over, and if you look at Jeremy Hunt and his plans, it does seem

:40:49.:40:50.

that privatisation is knocking on the door. I think we will go on

:40:51.:40:59.

because we only have... I would like two more questions. Dawn Pollitt. Do

:41:00.:41:07.

we have an effective opposition in the UK? To quote Theresa May, he can

:41:08.:41:11.

lead a protest, I am leading the country. He can lead a protest, I am

:41:12.:41:18.

leading the country. Do we have an effective opposition? Who would like

:41:19.:41:21.

to start on this and it would like to finish. Rebecca, you start. Of

:41:22.:41:27.

course we have an effective opposition. Our job is to hold the

:41:28.:41:30.

government to account and set out a vision of the future that another

:41:31.:41:34.

world is possible. I have already outlined that our economy is

:41:35.:41:37.

failing. The Government is not putting the economy first. I don't

:41:38.:41:42.

agree with George Osborne very often but he illustrated in his Brexit

:41:43.:41:45.

speech that Theresa May was not putting the economy first in terms

:41:46.:41:51.

of Brexit negotiations. Labour has a selection of red lines. We will

:41:52.:41:55.

rebuild and transform this economy, so yes, there certainly is an

:41:56.:42:02.

effective opposition. Laura. It is clear that the opposition is firstly

:42:03.:42:06.

hopelessly divided on the big issue of the day, Brexit, where literally

:42:07.:42:11.

their MPs cannot be bothered to turn up for a vote. I don't necessarily

:42:12.:42:17.

want to go back to the first issue, but it did strike me... Who could

:42:18.:42:24.

not be bothered? Diane Abbott. She had a headache. She was taking part

:42:25.:42:31.

in a debate earlier in the day. This is the reason there was so much

:42:32.:42:35.

grandstanding and protesting on the street as opposed to voting in our

:42:36.:42:38.

democratically elected parliament over Trump. They can unify over

:42:39.:42:43.

Trump. They want to be the official opposition to Trump, but we have the

:42:44.:42:48.

Democrats for that. You need to be the official opposition to the

:42:49.:42:50.

Conservatives and you are being hopeless about it at the moment.

:42:51.:42:51.

APPLAUSE I think not only is the opposition

:42:52.:43:05.

in disarray, I think it is descending into puerile displays of

:43:06.:43:11.

protest and shouting and in many instances preferring even in some

:43:12.:43:15.

cases violence, and justifying violence on the left, instead of

:43:16.:43:21.

developing serious policy solutions. Justifying violence? Whether it is

:43:22.:43:29.

on campus, banning speakers, you see Barkley has been set alight today.

:43:30.:43:36.

It is a terrible thing to say that we justify violence. I did not say

:43:37.:43:41.

the Labour Party. You can take responsibility for it if you like. I

:43:42.:43:45.

think it is descending into authoritarian displays of wanting to

:43:46.:43:49.

shut down debate. One of the examples is a lack of vision, as I

:43:50.:43:53.

mentioned earlier, even over what happens after Brexit. We need a

:43:54.:43:57.

clear vision emanating from the Leader of the Opposition that isn't

:43:58.:44:01.

there. We do not know what the alternative is to resisting Theresa

:44:02.:44:05.

May's policies. We do not know what the country will look like after

:44:06.:44:10.

Brexit. It is about time we started looking towards the future and

:44:11.:44:13.

articulated a Liberal vision for post-Brexit written. The woman on

:44:14.:44:23.

the right. -- Britain. How can the Labour Party be seen as the

:44:24.:44:28.

opposition if they cannot even stand on one stance over Brexit? The woman

:44:29.:44:36.

next to you. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn is totally to blame for the

:44:37.:44:40.

fall of the Labour Party. It started with Ed Miliband. That is where the

:44:41.:44:47.

fall of the Labour Party started. Nick Hewer. I agree. Were you a

:44:48.:44:53.

Labour Party supporter before? I followed Labour since Wilson's

:44:54.:44:57.

victory. I was on Andrew Neil's show, which we will not talk about.

:44:58.:45:05.

Ed Miliband, his handshake was the handshake of a wet fish. And I went

:45:06.:45:09.

to William Hill the next day to try to put on a bet that he would not be

:45:10.:45:13.

leader of the Labour Party at the next general election and they would

:45:14.:45:17.

not take the bet. I would have lost it, but I was right, absolutely

:45:18.:45:22.

right. And now, sadly, and I am sorry, Rebecca, but Jeremy is not a

:45:23.:45:30.

leader. Just as Miliband wasn't a leader. And talking about William

:45:31.:45:33.

Hill, if I could throw in one further thing. I rang them today to

:45:34.:45:39.

try to put on a bet that Trump would not see out his first term. 2-1 that

:45:40.:45:45.

he would be impeached, 13-8 that he would resign. Fascinating. He will

:45:46.:45:53.

serve two terms. And did you place the bet? Rotten odds. But you are

:45:54.:45:59.

rich, you could have doubled your money.

:46:00.:46:06.

I've been a Labour voter all my life. And now I'm in a position

:46:07.:46:14.

where I'm really not sure to go. So I'm afraid it's not a good

:46:15.:46:18.

opposition at the moment. The man in the white shirt? The most

:46:19.:46:26.

effective opposition will be Ukip. Once Nigel Farage has been proven

:46:27.:46:32.

right over Brexit. In a couple of years, he will be. That is a fine

:46:33.:46:38.

endorsement of Corbyn. You, Sir, in the second row? It's a media

:46:39.:46:44.

campaign against Jeremy Corbyn. I read the newspapers, watch Sky,

:46:45.:46:49.

everywhere you look at it it's an attack, now they've seen to

:46:50.:46:53.

withdrew, no attacks any more, don't let him fall on his own sword but I

:46:54.:46:57.

don't understand the obsession. Yes OK you look and think, is he, could

:46:58.:47:04.

you see him leading the country, I question whether we could have our

:47:05.:47:08.

trust in him, but the attacks on him, it's just terrible. I don't

:47:09.:47:11.

understand the attacks on him, where they come from, he's a decent guy

:47:12.:47:15.

who is trying to look at things from a different way from the normal

:47:16.:47:20.

politician who says one thing then he'll flip-flop over. Honestly, it's

:47:21.:47:28.

like In The Thick Of It, honestly, it's ridiculous.

:47:29.:47:32.

APPLAUSE. On the point that he made about the

:47:33.:47:40.

media attacking, the Leader of the Opposition, being attacked, is it

:47:41.:47:44.

fair? That is nothing new. I was in opposition when the media attacked

:47:45.:47:48.

our lead, on numerous occasions. The fact of whether they are an

:47:49.:47:54.

effective opposition is this, 172 Labour MPs last year had voted no

:47:55.:47:59.

confidence in Jeremy Corbyn to run the Labour Party. If 172 Labour MPs

:48:00.:48:06.

don't think he's suitable to run the Labour Party, how on earth is he

:48:07.:48:10.

suitable to run the country as our Prime Minister?

:48:11.:48:16.

APPLAUSE. We have got a position at the moment

:48:17.:48:21.

where three members yesterday of the Shadow Cabinet resigned, and they've

:48:22.:48:25.

not been replaced. Why, because he's running short of people to do it.

:48:26.:48:29.

All the people who were in Ed Miliband's Shadow Cabinet almost run

:48:30.:48:33.

away from the frontbench. I'm not bothered about whether they are an

:48:34.:48:36.

effective opposition because as a Government we are going to try and

:48:37.:48:40.

address those people who feel left behind as a result of the referendum

:48:41.:48:46.

and we'll try to improve those standards as Theresa May has made

:48:47.:48:50.

perfectly clear of the questions which we have got to address for

:48:51.:48:54.

those parts of the country that feel left behind. And we will do that.

:48:55.:49:00.

Thank you. Rebecca briefly please? We are an effective opposition

:49:01.:49:03.

because Jeremy is a good man. If one thing came out of the Brexit vote,

:49:04.:49:08.

it's that people are sick of elitist politicians that don't speak for

:49:09.:49:11.

them honestly. They want somebody that delivers a bold vision and

:49:12.:49:14.

Jeremy is doing that. He's delivering a future that is based on

:49:15.:49:22.

paying your fair share, investing in our economy, high-paid jobs,

:49:23.:49:25.

aspiration where we can have an English dream, the equivalent of the

:49:26.:49:28.

American dream because at the moment there isn't one. You work your

:49:29.:49:31.

fingers to the bone and you get nowhere. That's why we need to elect

:49:32.:49:35.

the Labour Party as quickly as possible.

:49:36.:49:37.

Right. Thank you. APPLAUSE.

:49:38.:49:43.

Off the stump for a moment and to a completely different question to end

:49:44.:49:47.

with from William Clements, please? Should parents will fined for taking

:49:48.:49:51.

their children out of school? We'll have to be quick here. Should

:49:52.:49:54.

parents be fined for taking children out of school in term time? It's

:49:55.:49:57.

gone to the Supreme Court because of a case in the Isle of Wight. We

:49:58.:50:02.

needn't go into the details, but the father complained, it went to the

:50:03.:50:05.

High Court, then to the Supreme Court. Maajid? I impa thigh with

:50:06.:50:11.

parents who can't afford to pay peak fares during the peak travel times.

:50:12.:50:15.

Of course that's one of the reasons cited for why they justify doing

:50:16.:50:21.

that -- sympathise. The children's needs come first frankly. Taking

:50:22.:50:27.

them out of class can be disruptive. I'm not sure fines are the way

:50:28.:50:31.

forward. Usually the parents travelling off peak are doing so

:50:32.:50:35.

precisely because they can't afford it. I don't think fines are the way

:50:36.:50:41.

forward, but there needs to be some form of disincentive. Laura? It's an

:50:42.:50:45.

interesting issue. I don't think fines are necessary. I did initially

:50:46.:50:49.

think the other way around. If you are signing up to go to school, you

:50:50.:50:53.

are part of a school community and you don't just have a duty to your

:50:54.:50:57.

own children who should be in school and should be being educated in that

:50:58.:51:01.

school and I know holidays have an educational benefit, but it's really

:51:02.:51:04.

important first of all that your own child is at school and secondly you

:51:05.:51:07.

have a duty to the other children that are there because if your child

:51:08.:51:11.

falls behind because you've taken them out to go on holiday, then it's

:51:12.:51:16.

disruptive to the other children when your own children have to catch

:51:17.:51:22.

up. So I don't think it's fair as a whole. School is like a family. You

:51:23.:51:28.

have a duty to the school and the community. There should be

:51:29.:51:31.

solidarity. You have signed up, you are sending your children there and

:51:32.:51:35.

you should support each other and taking Archbishop out of school is

:51:36.:51:39.

-- taking children out of school is disruptive for other children as

:51:40.:51:41.

well. The woman at the back? Can you

:51:42.:51:47.

explain to me why schools, our primary schools, are used for two

:51:48.:51:53.

days during the referendum for the Brexit vote and local elections

:51:54.:51:58.

which takes two days out of their education timetable for our

:51:59.:52:02.

children. That doesn't seem fair. We are on the question of children

:52:03.:52:10.

going out of school for holidays. Nick? OK. Yes. I think the finest

:52:11.:52:17.

thing that a parent can do for its child is ensure it gets the best

:52:18.:52:20.

possible education that it can. And I think that they should keep them

:52:21.:52:26.

in school. And they should forego the opportunity to have a warm swim

:52:27.:52:30.

somewhere off the Spanish coast. Even for families who can't afford

:52:31.:52:34.

to go during the holidays because all the prices go up, the hotels

:52:35.:52:38.

cost more, the flights do. I dare say they do, but we don't all have

:52:39.:52:43.

to two to Spain, they can go to Devon or wherever it is. The kids'

:52:44.:52:47.

education is the most important thing. I unusually agree with you

:52:48.:52:53.

lot. Unfortunately, even Devon is extortionate in the holidays. I have

:52:54.:52:58.

a four-year-old and I was flabbergasted at the cost during

:52:59.:53:03.

school holiday time. We need to take a pragmatic approach. I agree with

:53:04.:53:06.

the panel, you have to ensure your child has the best education. One or

:53:07.:53:10.

two days here or there in order to secure a cheaper holiday for parents

:53:11.:53:14.

who perhaps can't afford to take their children away in school time

:53:15.:53:17.

seems to be a pragmatic approach to me and the schools could potentially

:53:18.:53:21.

monitor, if it was the same family going away every single few weeks,

:53:22.:53:26.

then that's not acceptable, obviously, but I think once in a

:53:27.:53:29.

blue moon, there shouldn't really be an issue with it.

:53:30.:53:34.

APPLAUSE. I'm a mum to a few boys and I think

:53:35.:53:39.

one of my issues with the school holidays is there seems to be a long

:53:40.:53:43.

period of six weeks in the summer and, as a working mum you are

:53:44.:53:46.

juggling constantly with the children. I would actually like to

:53:47.:53:51.

see a review of the academic school year. Three weeks over Christmas and

:53:52.:53:57.

five weeks in the summer maybe. You would still have the holiday problem

:53:58.:54:02.

though? You do, but that is where that flexibility and conversations

:54:03.:54:04.

come in. We have an issue that if you have a child in a different area

:54:05.:54:09.

and if you work in a different area, my children can be off at a

:54:10.:54:11.

different half-term to me and we need to look at this as a whole

:54:12.:54:14.

picture and not just going on holiday.

:54:15.:54:18.

Patrick? I think you've got to look at the effect that it's had on the

:54:19.:54:22.

rest of the children in that class if they know certain people are

:54:23.:54:25.

going away on holiday and they're not. Then on the way that that child

:54:26.:54:30.

has to catch up on that particular subject when he comes back off

:54:31.:54:33.

holiday and the pressure that puts on the school and the teachers. The

:54:34.:54:38.

simple fact is, we are paying a lot of money into our education system

:54:39.:54:42.

for children to go to school and, if they miss that schooling, they miss

:54:43.:54:46.

that opportunity. So you are pro-fines? I do not think

:54:47.:54:54.

it's right to take children out of school for holidays unless it's

:54:55.:54:57.

very, very exceptional circumstances. Are you pro-fines?

:54:58.:55:00.

Yes. Thank you. So the Supreme Court take notice?

:55:01.:55:05.

No. I'm sure they won't. The woman there with the glasses on

:55:06.:55:11.

in black? I think the way the education system works at the moment

:55:12.:55:15.

specifically with primary schools, children are being taught how to

:55:16.:55:19.

answer exam questions rather than actually being taught how to learn,

:55:20.:55:26.

so in terms of holidays, I wouldn't condone to take children out of

:55:27.:55:30.

school on a regular basis, but for maybe once a year, I think they can

:55:31.:55:35.

learn a lot more on a few days' holiday than what they'd be reading

:55:36.:55:37.

in a textbook. APPLAUSE.

:55:38.:55:42.

People who home school believe they can learn more out of school all the

:55:43.:55:48.

time which is another matter. Stuart Mottershead, 60 seconds for your

:55:49.:55:52.

intriguing question, let's have it? Should all politicians have someone

:55:53.:55:56.

sat behind them with a sign saying "he's lying to you? ".

:55:57.:55:57.

CHEERING AND APPLAUSE. This is Nigel Farage who was

:55:58.:56:10.

photographed in the European Parliament with a Labour MEP behind

:56:11.:56:14.

him with a sign with anner row saying "he's lying to you". Should

:56:15.:56:23.

all politicians have that? We have to be very quick -- an arrow. The

:56:24.:56:29.

default position is that a lot of politicians are quite economical

:56:30.:56:31.

with the truth but that shouldn't be the case. We need to put more truth

:56:32.:56:34.

back into politics because people are losing faith in it quite

:56:35.:56:39.

frankly. Patrick? Hear, hear. She's telling the truth. Go on? Quickly.

:56:40.:56:48.

Oh I right, thank you. I show one of Donald Trump's favourite boasts was

:56:49.:56:53.

that he wasn't a politician so I think it's an interesting question

:56:54.:56:58.

and overall I think we try to do the best for our constituents and we try

:56:59.:57:02.

and be as honest and open as we possibly can.

:57:03.:57:05.

It's like having somebody on your shoaleder saying, don't believe

:57:06.:57:08.

everything he says. Very quickly, yes or no, politicians liars, tell

:57:09.:57:12.

the truth. You have to be very brief? They should just tell the

:57:13.:57:17.

truth. Maajid? We have to trust each other

:57:18.:57:23.

a lot more, hold each other to account. Lawyers, bankers, teachers,

:57:24.:57:28.

clergy get it. We keep hating each other like this, we end up with

:57:29.:57:37.

Donald Trump. Donald Trump is nothing but a, narcissist. Next time

:57:38.:57:42.

your Prime Minister goes to see him, she held his hand on the first date.

:57:43.:57:47.

Make sure she takes a chaperone for the second time. That's all I can

:57:48.:57:49.

say. APPLAUSE.

:57:50.:58:01.

The creed of Question Time is that all politicians tell the truth when

:58:02.:58:06.

on Question Time. We're in Torquay next week, with,

:58:07.:58:08.

among others, Billy Bragg To come and take part

:58:09.:58:12.

in our audience in Torquay or Glasgow go to our website,

:58:13.:58:19.

or call 0330 123 99 88. If you are listening tonight

:58:20.:58:22.

on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes Thank you to the audience and the

:58:23.:58:34.

panel and to the audience for watching. Good night.

:58:35.:59:03.

There's a reason why your drink tastes better today,

:59:04.:59:07.

why you're noticing the subtle botanicals,

:59:08.:59:09.

It's your brain playing tricks on you.

:59:10.:59:16.

A thick-bottomed, heavier glass makes you think it's more expensive.

:59:17.:59:20.

It's the same reason they put weights in TV remotes and phones.

:59:21.:59:25.

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