Browse content similar to 16/02/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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And on our panel tonight we have the Conservative Party's | :00:00. | :00:16. | |
only MP north of the border, who has been Secretary | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
of State for Scotland since 2015, David Mundell. | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
We have the former director of the human rights organisation | :00:25. | :00:26. | |
Liberty, made a peer by Jeremy Corbyn and now his shadow | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
The Deputy First Minister of Scotland, who's been | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
in the Scottish parliament since it was created, John Swinney. | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
The crime writer who backed Scottish independence in 2014 and voted | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
for Remain in the EU referendum, Val McDermid. | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
And once head of media for the Liberal Democrats, | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
now leading the free market think tank the Institute | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
of Economic Affairs, and a Brexiteer, Mark Littlewood. | :00:53. | :01:07. | |
And as always, from home, or wherever you are watching | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
Text 83981, if you want to do it that way. | :01:12. | :01:18. | |
Push the red button to see what others are saying. | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
Keep the debate going as the programme progresses. | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
Let's have our first question from Lesley Turan, please. | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
Should Scots have the right to a second independence referendum? | :01:30. | :01:38. | |
Should the Scots have the right to a second independence referendum | :01:39. | :01:40. | |
Shami Chakrabarti, as a non-Scot, what do you think? | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
Well, obviously I'm a non-Scot, so I'm not going to determine | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
what people in Scotland want for their future. | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
But I personally think that referenda in general can be very, | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
very divisive moments in a society's life. | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
We saw that in Scotland, in my case from outside. | :02:03. | :02:13. | |
Goodness me, we saw that all over the United Kingdom. | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
You know, the toxicity of that campaigning, on both sides, | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
families split and not speaking over it, communities divided over it. | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
Are we really in the mood for yet another referendum? | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
For a start, I don't entirely recognise your portrayal | :02:31. | :02:41. | |
of what happened in Scotland during the last referendum. | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
I personally know of no families that have been divided | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
and don't speak to each other any more. | :02:52. | :02:53. | |
I have friends who were on the other side of the argument from me. | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
We've had many vigorous discussions, and we are still friends, we still | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
Both on the EU one and on independence? | :03:01. | :03:08. | |
Yes, but principally on independence, that is | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
What we had was a media storm of whipping up a frenzy of hatred | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
and anger that was not reflected on the ground. | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
Yes, there were extremists on both sides who were vile, | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
repulsively and insulting and demeaning, but they were a tiny | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
But the overwhelming majority of people in this country | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
were voting on something they were passionate about, | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
and not in a narrow, tartan, shortbread way, | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
but passionate about for the future of this country going forward. | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
And Shami, you saw, in England presumably you are talking about, | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
divisions on the EU referendum that separated and split | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
I've been told by friends they went through periods of not | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
We saw a spike in hate crime, certainly, south | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
We lost a bright young Labour MP in a hate killing. | :03:56. | :04:08. | |
I do believe that sometimes there's a constitutional moment and you have | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
to have a referendum, but I don't think this | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
should happen every year in a country or society's life. | :04:22. | :04:23. | |
I think there are lots of other issues that are very important now | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
to securing equality, justice, fairness, schools, | :04:30. | :04:31. | |
We will deal with the referendum and Brexit. | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
You, in the third row, sir, what do you think? | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
I think the question really points to a significant change in what is | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
The whole issue of whether we were better together in the UK, and then | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
a short while after we enter into a referendum to exit the EU. | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
And I think the question that we have to face | :04:57. | :04:58. | |
and address in Scotland now is whether we are better | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
in a Brexiting UK, or whether we should | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
have the opportunity to form our own destiny in the EU. | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
And that's the question we should be addressing. | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
In my view, the way that the Brexit | :05:12. | :05:20. | |
situation has been handled, it seems to me that it is a drifting | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
situation, where no one really knows where we should be. | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
Scotland has very decisively voted in favour of remaining in the EU, | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
and that's where our destiny should be, and that's what we should | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
Scotland has been let down by the situation and we need | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
to speak up and argue for another referendum. | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
Quite a lot of other people have been let down in that sense as well. | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
London voted to remain, like Scotland did. | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
With respect to London and other parts of England, | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
what we shouldn't forget here is that Scotland | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
Scotland is a country and London is a city, and there | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
I suppose the question is, should Scotland have the right | :06:03. | :06:11. | |
to a second referendum and if so, when would you have it? | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
For me, Scotland has a right to determine her own | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
And that's a very basic point of self-determination for me. | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
The question that Lesley has highlighted is, and the fact | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
that she mentions the 62% for Remain in Scotland, | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
reinforces the point the gentleman has just made, | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
that Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom very clearly | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
are going in different directions in our thinking. | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
And in that respect, I think people must be free | :06:42. | :06:43. | |
to decide what is to be the future of our country. | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
For our part, as a government, what we have tried to do | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
since the referendum last June is to chart a course where we can | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
respond to the decisions that people in Scotland have taken, | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
the fact that we have argued for a different course. | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
And to try to find a way forward with the UK | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
And so far, we've got absolutely nowhere on that particular question. | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
What concessions do you want made to Scotland that would fit | :07:12. | :07:21. | |
in with that decision that was made by the UK? | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
Or are you actually saying, we've got to get out of the UK? | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
Are you frightened of having a referendum at the moment? | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
The paper the Scottish Government published in December set out | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
an approach whereby Scotland could retain our participation | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
within the single market through membership of the European | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
economic area, and that would see us maintaining our membership | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
But Theresa May has slammed the door on that. | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
She said we're coming out of the single market, | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
we are all coming out of the single market, despite the fact that even | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
many of the Leave campaigners were saying during the referendum, | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
you don't have to leave the single market. | :08:01. | :08:02. | |
She has voluntarily taken us to hard Brexit. | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
So when are you going to have the referendum? | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
We will pursue the negotiations we are having with the United Kingdom. | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
But quite clearly, we've set out to the UK Government, | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
if that does not get us to a satisfactory conclusion then | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
the likelihood of a second independent referendum | :08:17. | :08:18. | |
Do you agree with your former leader that the autumn of next year | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
We will see what that produces but we have to look at the decisions | :08:24. | :08:35. | |
the UK Government take and if we believe that is not | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
producing an approach that will deliver for the people | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
of Scotland, we have a right to take that issue to | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
David Mundell, the Prime Minister said she wouldn't be triggering | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
Article 50 until there's a UK approach and objectives | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
It doesn't sound as if there is much of a UK approach here | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
I'm disappointed to hear what John Swinney has had to say | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
because he knows officials between the two governments | :09:01. | :09:02. | |
are working all the time to look at how we can come | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
I want us to have an agreed position, and if we take | :09:06. | :09:12. | |
the Scottish Government's document, which I regard as a serious | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
contribution to the debate, that document sets out a whole range | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
of areas where we are actually in agreement. | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
In agreement on areas like workers' rights, | :09:24. | :09:25. | |
the status of EU citizens, in relation to criminal | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
So there are a lot of areas in which we are in agreement. | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
We want to ensure the status of EU citizens in the UK, | :09:36. | :09:47. | |
and we want to ensure the status of British citizens in Europe. | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
And that is a position on which I would have thought | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
You have EU citizens who have absolutely no idea where they stand | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
and are desperate for clarity and your government | :10:03. | :10:04. | |
It's a very simple question to deliver. | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
I'm not going to be lectured by somebody who was found out | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
for delaying an announcement about the funding of European | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
students so that it could be made at your party conference, | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
rather than bringing certainty to those students. | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
So don't lecture me on playing politics. | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
I think the audience watching and this audience | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
here would probably prefer it if you didn't play politics, | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
I just ask you, where is the guarantee that the rights | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
of EU citizens in the UK will be maintained? | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
You've said it is up for negotiation and depends what happens in Europe. | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
The Prime Minister has set out that it's a priority | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
We want to be able to guarantee the rights of EU citizens, | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
just as we want to be able to guarantee the rights of UK | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
And on the issue of a referendum, if the SNP decide to go | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
for a referendum, are you in favour of them having a referendum? | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
My belief, as I have said many times, of course there could be | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
The question is, should there be another independence referendum? | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
And I am quite clear that the answer to that is decisively no. | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
We had an independence referendum in in 2014. | :11:34. | :11:44. | |
I don't quite share Val's perspective on it, | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
although I welcome the fact that we had such an overwhelming | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
There was a decisive result in that referendum. | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
And now it is absolutely clear that the people of Scotland do not | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
If John Swinney and Nicola Sturgeon are genuinely listening | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
to the people of Scotland on their opinions about | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
a referendum, they would take it off the table now. | :12:13. | :12:14. | |
I just want to check one thing with you. | :12:15. | :12:23. | |
The words of a senior figure in the cabinet, Michael Fallon, | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
the Defence Secretary, when asked about this, | :12:27. | :12:28. | |
whether there might be another, whether Westminster would allow | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
My view is that the SNP should forget about having | :12:32. | :12:40. | |
My question is if you agree with Michael Fallon. | :12:41. | :12:51. | |
If the SNP asked for one, the Scottish Parliament ask for one, | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
The position, and John Swinney knows this, is that the Westminster | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
parliament would have to agree, because that is where | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
the responsibility for the referendum lies. | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
We haven't received a request to have another referendum, | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
We must continue to argue that we should not have | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
Mark, I'm going to bring you in the but I'd like to hear | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
from other members of our audience since there are a lot of hands up. | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
Let's hear your views, the woman in the third row. | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
A lot of things have changed since the first referendum. | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
A lot of people voted No because we were told our EU | :13:34. | :13:35. | |
Also, I don't agree with the fact that you said it divided a country. | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
That referendum sparked an interest in politics with a lot of young | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
people and if you had ever been to a rally in George Square | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
you would have seen thousands of people there camping peacefully. | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
But if you watch the BBC News, you'd never have seen that | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
And what's your view about another referendum? | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
Shami hit the nail on the head when she said there's lots of other | :13:57. | :14:15. | |
issues that have to be addressed in this country. | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
However, that's exactly why there should be a second referendum. | :14:19. | :14:20. | |
There's lots of issues in Scotland that have to be addressed | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
and we are not being represented by the people in Westminster. | :14:24. | :14:25. | |
We may have some difficult times in a short space | :14:26. | :14:33. | |
of time with another referendum and there will be debate, | :14:34. | :14:35. | |
but as Val has said, we will all come back to be friends. | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
I have friends on the other side of the fence as well | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
There is a bigger picture to look at here. | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
We have things to address, problems to overcome and we can only | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
do that if we've got control of our own destiny. | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
Look, I think the lady nailed it in the third row over there. | :14:52. | :15:06. | |
Almost the 2014 decision is moot because the constitutional framework | :15:07. | :15:08. | |
that you undertoad prevailed then has changed enormously. | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
In just over two years' time the Westminster Government will take | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
us out of the European Union because, in aggregate, | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
English votes and Welsh votes out trumps Scottish votes. | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
The vote here was overwhelmingly to remain. | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
Things have changed, I think that is a sensible reason | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
The constitutional basis upon which you voted in 2014 | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
If you now wish to be a member of the European Union, | :15:33. | :15:41. | |
you will have to leave the United Kingdom. | :15:42. | :15:43. | |
That is the exact opposite of what was prevailing in 2014. | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
Now, you've probably had, since the Act of Union of 1706, | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
far too many people like me telling you what you should do. | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
So I'm not going to tell you what you should do, | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
but I hope you'll take a little bit of friendly advice. | :15:58. | :16:17. | |
This is the country of Adam Smith, David Hume, David Livingstone, | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
JK Rowling, Sir Alex Ferguson - Val McDermid! | :16:22. | :16:23. | |
And, you have the national income of a country like Portugal. | :16:24. | :16:33. | |
You have the population of a country like like | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
I see no reason whatsoever why Scotland can't take its own case | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
Who shouted out, "no, you haven't" here? | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
The 62% voted who remain is yesterday's news. | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
It was yesterday's news on the 24th June last year. | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
All those Labour voters, Conservative voters, | :17:00. | :17:00. | |
Liberal Democrat voters all the people who were frightened | :17:01. | :17:02. | |
into voting remain, these are most of the people also who voted no | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
If they thought today that their votes were going to be | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
hijacked as an excuse as a fundamental change for another | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
Scottish referendum, they must rue the day | :17:13. | :17:14. | |
We'll stick with this, but Louise White, let's | :17:15. | :17:44. | |
just have your question, Louise because that rather | :17:45. | :17:46. | |
adds to the dimensions of what we're talking about. | :17:47. | :17:48. | |
Why do the SNP want to reclaim powers from Westminster only | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
to hand them over to Brussels? | :17:53. | :17:53. | |
I mean, I think if you do want to assert your independence it | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
would be a little odd to throw off the dominance of the Westminster | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
Parliament and then to immediately reshackle yourself | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
to the European Union, but there are some differences. | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
The Westminster Parliament controls a considerable degree more | :18:09. | :18:10. | |
of your tax and spending than the European Union does. | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
The European Union, were you to leave the UK and rejoin, | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
would control a large amount of your regulation, but not as much | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
A good number of countries, it wouldn't be my voice | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
to John Swinney or the SNP, but a good number of countries, | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
about the size of Scotland are, I think, broadly independent | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
countries and have decided to be members of the European Union it. | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
Well, I think while the decision to go into this rock hard Brexit | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
maybe the trigger for us to move towards another referendum, | :18:38. | :18:39. | |
it won't be what the referendum is actually about because, | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
at this point, we can't predict what the EU is going to be | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
The EU is clearly in a state of flux at the moment. | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
We don't know what's going to happen in the French elections. | :18:52. | :18:53. | |
We don't know if Mrs Merkel will continue to be German Chancellor. | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
We cannot know what it will be like at the point where, | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
if there is going to be another referendum, that happens. | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
So that's a moot point at the moment. | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
I don't know what we're going to be heading into in two years' time. | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
Ultimately, it is about the future of Scotland and the decisions | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
we make knowing what the options are instead of being told | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
what the options are going to be and then discovering that we've | :19:14. | :19:15. | |
If you think about it, a lot of Europeans don't | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
want to stay in the European Union, what on earth are we doing joining | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
There's two reasons that directly answer the lady's question. | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
There are a whole range of independent countries have | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
decided, voluntarily, to work together as part | :19:39. | :19:53. | |
Some of them are small countries like Scotland, | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
other of them are larger countries, but they all decide | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
in their common interests to work together for mutual benefit | :20:01. | :20:02. | |
The second reason is that, if we're part of the European Union, | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
we have access to a market of 500 million people, | :20:07. | :20:08. | |
which is ten times the market of the United Kingdom. | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
It is a significant opportunity which is now going to be more | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
difficult for us to access because of the decision | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
So it's about making sure that we protect and assert | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
the national interest of Scotland which can be best served | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
by working with other countries for mutual benefit. | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
David Mundell, do you see a conflict between seeking independence | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
and then remaining or going back into the EU, whatever it would be? | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
I'm almost staggered when the SNP make this point about the European | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
market and how important it is to Scotland. | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
The market in the rest of the UK is worth four | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
times as much as all 27 other countries. | :20:39. | :20:40. | |
It just seems to be capable of being disregarded | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
If barriers are to be created between Scotland and the rest | :20:47. | :20:55. | |
of the UK, that doesn't seem to matter. | :20:56. | :20:57. | |
I'm grateful for John Swinney tonight clarifying that the SNP | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
is in favour of EU membership because there's been some doubt | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
lately because of some suggestion that it wouldn't actually be full EU | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
membership because of course they have to take into account | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
the 500,000 of their supporters who voted to leave the EU, | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
and this idea that everyone in Scotland voted to remain, | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
..the problem with all of that, David, | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
is that the wishes of the people of Scotland were clearly expressed | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
in the point that was made by the first question, | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
where 62% voted in favour of remaining in the United Kingdom... | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
Of the United Kingdom remaining in the EU, | :21:42. | :21:51. | |
John, not of Scotland - and the key democratic point, David, | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
in resolving this you're the only one who's voted for Brexit | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
in the United Kingdom Parliament from Scotland, everyone else | :21:58. | :21:59. | |
from Scotland has voted not to exit the European Union and that's | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
a democratic absurdity for the people of Scotland. | :22:03. | :22:04. | |
That is your complete disrespect for the one million people | :22:05. | :22:06. | |
in Scotland who voted to leave the EU. | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
I didn't agree with them, but I respected them. | :22:09. | :22:10. | |
What about your lack of respect for the 62%, | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
the overwhelming majority of our citizens and the 58 of the 59 | :22:15. | :22:16. | |
Scottish MPs that voted not to trigger Article 50 | :22:17. | :22:18. | |
as is the democratic right of those individuals. | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
And the 2 million people, John, who voted to remain | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
So, David Mundell, you're view is that despite the fact that | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
an overwhelming majority of Scotland wanted to stay in the EU, | :22:30. | :22:42. | |
given that the UK voted Brexit, they're | :22:43. | :22:44. | |
better to stick with the UK that's it in the summary as your view? | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
I believe that the arguments for Scotland remaining part | :22:48. | :22:49. | |
of the United Kingdom are as strong today as they were when we voted | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
You, sir, about the referendum and that and then we'll move | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
You, sir, with the spectacles on and then up to you in the pink shirt. | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
John, I was an SNP supporter, now we had a vote referendum | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
So we moved on to Brexit, which the country voted, | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
We're part of Britain, the country voted out, we're out. | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
I want to come out of the European Union, | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
And you, sir, in the pink shirt and then Shami, I'll come to you. | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
I just generally think wouldn't it be better | :23:23. | :23:37. | |
if we got our independence, we're not going to be able to stay | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
in the EU by the time a referendum came about. | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
Wouldn't it be a better position, from a Scotland centric point | :23:44. | :23:45. | |
of view to be able to make choices about an ever-changing Europe | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
at the time as opposed to deciding now we're in, | :23:49. | :23:50. | |
Oh, no, I'm totally for independence, I think that puts | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
us in a position to actually make decisions for ourself | :23:58. | :23:59. | |
So you would leave the UK now in effect, if you could. | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
The Brexit campaign never gave me any information | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
at all with which to make a valuable choice, an informed | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
I'm concerned about all sorts of things, but Brexit did | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
I respect these long-term debates about nationhood that | :24:14. | :24:24. | |
have happened in the UK, they happen in Scotland, | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
but I think the immediate question, the immediate question, | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
is what kind of Brexit there is going to be | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
for the United Kingdom as it is currently constituted. | :24:34. | :24:43. | |
We can be rowing with each other about in/out when that decision has | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
been made or we can be holding Mrs May and her Government | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
to account to make sure - It's going to be a hard Brexit. | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
Labour's done so well on that so far. | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
You've given the Conservative Government a blank cheque, | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
No, we have not given them a blank cheque. | :25:01. | :25:09. | |
They going to have to publish a white paper. | :25:10. | :25:11. | |
They are going to have to report back to Parliament. | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
You have colleagues in Parliament that no doubt have faith in. | :25:15. | :25:16. | |
In the Bill that went through the House of Commons, | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
not a single amendment from any party was accepted | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
And the Labour Party voted at the final stage which opened up | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
the floodgates for the Tories to do what they want. | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
All right, let's hear about next week in the House of Lords. | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
Next week, the Bill is coming to to the House of Lords | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
and the House of Lords is very differently composed | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
However, this debate was supposed to be | :25:38. | :25:47. | |
about parliamentary sovereignty and there is an opportunity | :25:48. | :25:49. | |
in the Lords to ensure that the Government is held | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
to account account during these negotiations. | :25:53. | :25:53. | |
OK, what are you going for in the Lords as a new Labour Baroness, | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
The rolling of the 'R' is delightful and not a tiny bit sarcastic. | :25:57. | :26:04. | |
How dare I, how dare I take my place at the table as well? | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
What we need are greater safeguards about reporting. | :26:08. | :26:09. | |
The Government has said that they will report back | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
to Parliament, so surely they will have no problem | :26:12. | :26:13. | |
with agreeing to amendments in the legislation itself | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
I think it's also crucial that we fight for an amendment | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
to the legislation to guarantee the rights of people who have lived | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
and worked and formed families in this country over many years | :26:28. | :26:36. | |
as a fundamental human rights issue they should be allowed to remain. | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
Shami, are you saying that you will be able in, | :26:40. | :26:41. | |
in the House of Lords, to get the process of negotiation | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
checked, as it goes along, that there will be a vote, | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
I believe that is the ambition of many peers of different | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
That is the opportunity, that is the ambition of many | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
I didn't mean to insult you by calling you "Baroness", | :26:55. | :27:06. | |
You have every right to be a Baroness. | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
But you don't need my permission, but I just wanted to make it clear | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
Right, come on, let's get back to the subject. | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
The woman there in the centre there, yes. | :27:18. | :27:19. | |
I've got a message for David Mundell. | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
I've just returned from Paris from the rugby and I was with people | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
from Scotland, people from your constituency, | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
farmers from Langham, farmers who voted to stay in the UK | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
You could have knocked me down with a feather when they all said | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
that they would vote this time for independence. | :27:40. | :27:41. | |
The woman here, and then I'll go to you there and then to you. | :27:42. | :27:50. | |
One thing that seems to be bandied around in the Brexit debate | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
all the time is this idea of respecting the democratic | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
will of the people, whether that be the remainers need to be quiet | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
and get on with it or the Labour MPs of having to vote | :28:05. | :28:13. | |
with Jeremy Corbyn in the Bill, but, and David Mundell, you yourself, | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
admitted that you voted remain, yet you voted in the House | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
of Commons to go through with the Brexit Bill, | :28:21. | :28:30. | |
so by not adhering to listen to the 60%, 60% odd of Scots who did | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
vote to remain in the UK, you're fundamentally | :28:35. | :28:36. | |
disrespecting their democratic voice? | :28:37. | :28:37. | |
I absolutely disagree with that perspective. | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
As a democrat, we had a referendum in Scotland, | :28:45. | :28:46. | |
the decision was to remain in the United Kingdom. | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
If Scotland had voted to leave the United Kingdom, | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
I would have respected that result and I would have done everything | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
The United Kingdom, as a whole, voted to leave the EU, | :28:55. | :29:04. | |
I respect that result and I'm doing everything that I can to make it | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
a success for Scotland and the rest of the UK. | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
It's always been my understanding that we live in a representative | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
democracy, is it not therefore your obligation | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
to represent the views of your constituents rather | :29:22. | :29:23. | |
We're not going to get into a constitutional debate. | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
A representative democracy means your representative decides | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
and then in five years' time you decide whether you want | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
that person to be your representative or not. | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
Let's not get into Berkin territory here, let's | :29:43. | :29:44. | |
have a comment from you, sir, and a comment from you. | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
Then one or two other comments and then we'll move on. | :29:48. | :29:49. | |
Well, David, what about respecting the 45% of people in Scotland that | :29:50. | :30:03. | |
We see English votes for English laws brought in Westminster so how | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
can the rest of the UK determine Scotland's future? | :30:08. | :30:20. | |
Also on our Labour Lords' point, about the violence | :30:21. | :30:22. | |
and the segregation in the first independence referendum that we had. | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
As an English person, born there, unfortunately, | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
Scotland's home to me, it always will be, I didn't | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
I've got English family down south and they were pleased | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
OK, the woman in the second row there, thank you for that. | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
Just some comments please and then we must move on to other questions. | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
We voted to stay in the United Kingdom, then | :30:47. | :30:54. | |
we voted as a national, not as a Scottish region | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
or country, we voted nationally in the EU referendum and the vote | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
was to leave it and we just have to accept that, | :31:03. | :31:04. | |
Don't ask the question, just say your view. | :31:05. | :31:13. | |
Other people were extremely concerned about the amount | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
the NHS relies on in terms of skilled EU workers. | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
I know everybody wants to speak on this and I wish | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
It is important to note that in terms of gross numbers | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
significantly more people voted to stay in the United Kingdom | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
than voted to remain in the European Union. | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
And we've seen since the Brexit vote that the polls haven't shifted | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
significantly to suggest there is a significant groundswell. | :31:44. | :31:45. | |
The overall numbers seem to have stayed relatively still in Scotland | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
in terms of who supports leaving the United Kingdom and remaining. | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
There was an interesting point directed to John Swinney | :31:54. | :31:55. | |
One of the key rules about joining is that your deficit cannot exceed | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
3% of GDP and Scotland's is currently at 9.5%. | :32:03. | :32:04. | |
People who voted Remain should just grit their teeth | :32:05. | :32:16. | |
That is one of the problems with referendums, simplistic choices | :32:17. | :32:25. | |
no, remain or leave, and have a more intelligent | :32:26. | :32:41. | |
discussion because the country deserves a more intelligent | :32:42. | :32:43. | |
Let's go on to some other questions because we are halfway | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
through the programme and have quite a lot of questions. | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
Just to say we are going to be in Stoke-on-Trent next week | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
and that, of course, is the night the by-election | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
at Stoke-on-Trent, and the week after we will be in Bedford. | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
If you can come to Stoke-on-Trent or to Bedford, on screen | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
is the e-mail address and our telephone number. | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
You can call and apply to come and I will give | :33:06. | :33:07. | |
Should the Scottish Government adopt the education reforms seen | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
in England, in order to improve falling attainment levels? | :33:16. | :33:17. | |
The question is about a report that Scottish pupils are trailing behind | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
the performance of able pupils in England in most subject areas, | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
So should you adopt reforms seen in England? | :33:24. | :33:31. | |
Well, Scotland used to have an education system | :33:32. | :33:33. | |
It was an education system that allowed someone like me, | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
from a working-class background, to go at Oxford University. | :33:42. | :33:43. | |
I think that in many respects the Scottish Government has let down | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
We do have a serious problem with reaching | :33:47. | :33:55. | |
educational attainment that we would all like to see. | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
Steps are being taken to improve that, but I'm not necessarily | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
convinced that going the way of the English curriculum | :34:02. | :34:03. | |
I would like to see a curriculum that encourages children | :34:04. | :34:11. | |
to be curious to learn, because they want to learn. | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
That is not just about forcing down a narrow curriculum path, | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
I would like to see us explore, perhaps in some respects a more | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
traditional approach to learning, but that allows us to reassert | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
ourselves as leaders in education in the world. | :34:26. | :34:27. | |
Which you have a reputation for being. | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
So this line about trailing behind the performance | :34:32. | :34:40. | |
of able pupils in England, you don't agree that's the right way | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
of measuring education success or ability? | :34:44. | :34:45. | |
I don't know, because I am not an educationalist, | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
But I do think we need to improve our attainment | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
and I think the way to do it is not necessarily the way they have | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
I have a son who is at school in England, and I think their focus | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
is very narrowly curriculum based and it does not encourage people | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
to think outside those narrow tramlines of, | :35:03. | :35:03. | |
you have to follow the curriculum and do exactly what you have to do | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
I would like to see a system that encourages people to be curious, | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
encourages children to want to find out more. | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
That certainly was what I experienced as a child | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
John Swinney, you are Education Secretary in Scotland | :35:18. | :35:25. | |
and you will have read this stuff from the Sutton Trust, | :35:26. | :35:27. | |
that bright Scottish pupils are falling behind, | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
and the OECD report that Scottish performance in maths, | :35:31. | :35:32. | |
Is it to follow the reforms that have happened in England, | :35:33. | :35:42. | |
The first thing to do is to acknowledge that we have | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
to improve performance in Scottish education. | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
I am not going to sit here and say there is not an issue that | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
I think openly and honestly confronting that issue | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
The First Minister has appointed me to lead that process | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
in the Scottish Government and I have been doing that | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
for the last nine months, and I am determined to make sure | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
Val McDermid is correct that we need, for the modern world, | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
to have a curriculum that enables young people to be curious | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
and investigative, because they are going to have | :36:17. | :36:18. | |
And if we look at the pace of change in the last | :36:19. | :36:27. | |
10 years in our society, it's been a much more dramatic | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
and aggressive pace of change than in the first ten years | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
Do you accept there has been a slippage | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
The statistics that came out before the turn of the year, | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
the OECD statistics, they indicate that | :36:42. | :36:43. | |
But that information was gathered in 2015. | :36:44. | :36:52. | |
Since then, the Scottish Government has taken a number of steps | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
to improve the performance of Scottish education. | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
Just a couple of weeks ago, I put over ?120 million directly | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
into schools to give headteachers much more control over | :37:03. | :37:04. | |
the allocation of resources, to strengthen, to make choices | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
about what will strengthen education and performance | :37:07. | :37:08. | |
Jason, you suggested they should adopt the English system. | :37:09. | :37:18. | |
Do you think that is the right answer? | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
From what I gather, the free schools in England seem to have | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
had some good results, especially in terms | :37:25. | :37:26. | |
of improving attainment in economically deprived areas. | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
John Swinney said, after the most recent figures came out, | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
that we need radical change in Scottish education. | :37:34. | :37:35. | |
I think the radical reform you need is for politicians to get out | :37:36. | :37:46. | |
The curriculum needs to be set by teachers. | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
If you are going to have a curriculum, make | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
it one sentence long, "schools will teach maths, English, | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
The problem we have got into both in Scotland and in England | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
is being too prescriptive and making education a political football. | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
John has got one hell of a task on his hands to improve | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
I am glad he has admitted the numbers are disappointing even | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
But I would say, don't necessarily adopt the English system. | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
The Swedes have been considerably more radical in allowing freedom | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
They have allowed some schools to be running on a for-profit basis. | :38:24. | :38:31. | |
That has brought in schools, particularly | :38:32. | :38:33. | |
You will find in England the free schools, typically, | :38:34. | :38:41. | |
a broadbrush analysis, are in leafy suburbs with a rich | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
You will not find so many popping up in deprived inner-city areas. | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
If you embrace that in Scotland I think you would find | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
the statistics actually improving over the next five years. | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
Go for freedom for the teachers, allow teachers to teach, allow | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
Whilst John Swinney may be well-intentioned, | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
frankly we need politicians out of the way as the best way | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
The current Scottish Government has recently reformed | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
the curriculum for excellence, but it has resulted | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
in no substantial change to the education system. | :39:20. | :39:21. | |
We are still fully based on assessment driven criteria, | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
No, but I am from a family of teachers. | :39:24. | :39:33. | |
David Mundell, what do you make of the argument? | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
I find the most shocking statistic not the comparison between Scotland | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
and England but the comparison that if you are a bright child living | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
in a poorer area in Scotland, you are two years behind the same | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
child living in a more affluent area. | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
I think that is a shocking indictment of the SNP's ten years | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
The SNP have been responsible for education in Scotland for ten years. | :39:55. | :40:06. | |
No interference from Westminster, fully devolved. | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
And I say that the fundamental problem is, despite John's very | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
plausible commitments, despite the fact that | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
Nicola Sturgeon said last week that education was her absolute focus, | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
it is quite clear, even from the discussion | :40:24. | :40:24. | |
I think it's actually quite incredible that you can come on this | :40:25. | :40:40. | |
programme as the only elected Conservative politician and talk | :40:41. | :40:51. | |
about economically driven education, given the wasteland that has been | :40:52. | :41:02. | |
created by the Conservatives and neoliberalism for | :41:03. | :41:03. | |
I agree with everything that has been said about how troubling | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
it is if Scottish children and the poorest in particular | :41:11. | :41:12. | |
are falling behind, but I am not going to say it is all milk | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
and honey south of the border either. | :41:17. | :41:17. | |
I agree with lots of what Mark said about political footballs | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
and how that has been going on in the education | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
I agree with what was said about over testing, | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
overprescription, where is the joy of learning and curiosity. | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
But most of all, I am worried about the relationship between inequality | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
If a child has not had breakfast, if a child has no books at home, | :41:36. | :41:47. | |
how do you expect to have the most amazing educational opportunity? | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
These things go hand-in-hand, and austerity is a massive problem, | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
and inequality is a massive problem all over the United Kingdom. | :41:55. | :42:04. | |
The idea that saying there has been no interference from Westminster is | :42:05. | :42:16. | |
a farce because our budget has been cut and it is continually cut by | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
Westminster. Lets get the facts on the table, | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
that is completely incorrect. But the budget has been cut. The budget | :42:26. | :42:34. | |
has... The Scottish Government has received more than they anticipated | :42:35. | :42:38. | |
in the current financial year. Has it dropped or has it risen? It has | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
risen, the amount of money the Scottish Government has received. | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
The Scottish Government recently found hundreds of millions to do a | :42:47. | :42:49. | |
deal with the Greens to get their budget through, so there is money if | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
the Scottish Government wants to allocate it. A brief point, if you | :42:54. | :43:03. | |
would. I was a maths teacher for 37 years and in that time I saw | :43:04. | :43:05. | |
children dying from the stage where they came up from primary school, | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
they were very numerous, two in recent years, I retired in October, | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
and I was shocked at how children coming up from primary school had no | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
number bonds, did not know their tables, knew nothing, because of | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
curriculum for excellence. That has been the biggest negative we have | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
had so far in Scotland. In a nutshell, what has happened in your | :43:28. | :43:37. | |
20-year 's teaching? We moved away from basic numerous Ian Park skills, | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
which if you do not have you cannot build on anything to teach maths. | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
Even at university level, if you not understand fractions, you cannot do | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
anything. The fundamentals are not being taught. Because children are | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
being allowed to explore. Boxes are ticked, but nothing is reinforced | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
and learned to the same extent. That is not all schools, but quite a lot | :44:03. | :44:04. | |
of them. APPLAUSE | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
It is not fair to ask you to be too brief, but if you could just | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
summarise. We have heard a lot of complaints | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
and points, particularly about the money spent. On the question of | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
numerous E, David Mundell has let himself down because the Scottish | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
Government budget has been cut dramatically since the Conservatives | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
came to power. Has he forgotten about posterity? The second point is | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
Shami's point about inequality. At the heart of the agenda we are | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
taking forward is the need to close that attainment gap which has | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
persisted in Scottish education for all of my adult life. It was there | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
when I was a school pupil and it remains. We have set an ambitious | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
target that in the course of this parliamentary term we will make | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
significant progress towards closing that gap over the course of the next | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
ten years. The final point is that the curriculum in Scotland was | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
changed, yes, in the early part of this century, after a big national | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
debate involving many educationalists. But at the heart of | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
the curriculum, to reassure the lady is good and wrote, is literacy and | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
numerous E and the health and well-being of our young people, and | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
we must make sure they are equipped with those foundations to make sure | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
they can take their life forward. We have to focus on that. We must go | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
onto another question. I would like to get a couple more questions in. | :45:34. | :45:49. | |
Barbara Pauly. Should the UK follow Trump's lead and treat Russia as a | :45:50. | :45:59. | |
potential ally instead of an enemy? It's hard to work out what Donald | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
Trump is doing. It's in chaos. My biggest fear about him is that he's | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
a sexist, racist, fashionist or something else that would offend me | :46:10. | :46:23. | |
it's chaos at the moment. We should engage with Russia. Back in the day | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
we dealt with We certainly dealt with the mass | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
mvurdering Leonid Brezhnev when he was running the Soviet | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
union, we have to deal with the world as it is, | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
not with the world as we would That means lines of communication | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
to Putin, even for those of who you can't bear the new leader | :46:40. | :46:51. | |
of the free world, lines of communication | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
from the United Kingdom to Trump Don't embrace Vladimir Putin, | :46:55. | :46:56. | |
but recognise that in the dangerous world in which we live, | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
we have to do business with him. I don't think we need | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
to embrace Donald Trump. I don't think we need to embrace | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
Donald Trump either, but if this country, | :47:07. | :47:08. | |
or even if the United Kingdom splits into two, believes that we can go | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
round not recognising that Vladimir Putin is an important part | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
on the stage and not recognising that Donald Trump is, | :47:16. | :47:17. | |
then I'm afraid, our influence, be it English, Scottish or British, | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
is going to wither. We have to keep lines | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
of communication and decent relationships with these people | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
however unpleasant you find them. If indeed Trump is treating | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
Russia as a potential ally instead of an enemy, | :47:31. | :47:47. | |
whatever that may mean. I do agree with Mark that I don't | :47:48. | :47:49. | |
think any of us has a faintest idea of what Donald Trump is doing | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
from one day to the next, I'm not sure how much sense he has | :47:54. | :47:55. | |
of what he's going to do. He said, "I've nothing to do | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
with Russia, I've no deals there. But his people certainly had | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
dealings with Russia before he was elected and the promise | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
to remove sanctions from Russia is not something that you would do | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
without there being some kind of quid pro quo, I feel, | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
in the world of real politics. To answer the question, | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
I think Mark is right that we need to acknowledge that these | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
people are there. But we do not embrace them | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
as friends and allies when they completely eviscerate Any | :48:25. | :48:32. | |
pretence of human rights When they treat their own people | :48:33. | :48:34. | |
in ways we would not allow to happen within our borders, | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
so I think we need to keep those lines of communication open, | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
but we must always make it clear what our position is, | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
particularly in relation to human rights and the way | :48:45. | :48:45. | |
you treat your own population. I find any suggestion | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
that we embrace Trump in anyway abhorrent due to this ban | :48:49. | :48:56. | |
that he has had. We have Muslim citizens | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
of our own and I imagine that they must feel insulted | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
and offended that Theresa May went over there and played happy families | :49:06. | :49:16. | |
with Trump when he's, quite clearly, been anti-Muslim in a way | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
that is reminiscent Hitler, but just Well, a question that begins - | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
should we follow President Trump's lead, is not a question I'm | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
going to answer with a yes. However, I think both | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
Val and Mark had a point about negotiating with people, | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
but I think sometimes one needs to negotiate not from | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
a position of having your hand-held or patted | :49:37. | :49:38. | |
in the Oval Office, but from a position | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
of dignity and strength and that would have to be the case with both | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
of these men, to some extent. You said, Mark, that | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
Trump being a racist or a fascist or a misogynist | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
might offend your liberal It's not my liberal sensitivities | :49:57. | :49:57. | |
that it offends, it's my human sensitivities and I think | :49:58. | :50:05. | |
we should all share those. And those sensitivities are | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
similarly offended by Mr Putin with his attitude to women | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
and gay people and so... You don't consider either of them | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
as bad as Hitler, do you? I mean, there is a lot of human | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
rights abuse in the world, but we've got to put it | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
in some kind of order. My recent experience is that it's | :50:27. | :50:28. | |
not a great idea to be comparing people to Hitler, | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
it's rarely helpful in conversation. Just compare him to | :50:32. | :50:33. | |
the other 250 leaders I don't need to do - | :50:34. | :50:35. | |
There's a lot of bad guys out there. I don't need to do that, | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
I think the point is well made that it's a crazy world at the moment, | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
but we do have to engage with Mr | :50:44. | :50:45. | |
Trump and Mr Putin. But you were critical, | :50:46. | :50:47. | |
unless I misheard you, of the Prime You said it ought to be conducted | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
with dignity, are you suggesting I think it was really | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
important that she went, but I think that the iconography | :50:55. | :51:12. | |
of her having her having her I wouldn't like to see | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
it with Putin, either! I'm absolutely clear | :51:18. | :51:27. | |
that we can't have a business as usual relationship with Russia | :51:28. | :51:29. | |
certainly as it currently conducts itself and we have to be very, | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
very clear about that. Russia's behaviour in the Ukraine, | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
Russia's behaviour even currently in Syria is totally | :51:35. | :51:36. | |
unacceptable and we have to make But we do have to | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
engage with Russia. Some of the most dangerous times | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
in our world have been when there Likewise, with President | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
Trump, he is the democratically-elected President | :51:49. | :51:59. | |
of the United States and we have to We live in a country where, | :52:00. | :52:01. | |
thankfully, we have a thriving democracy where people | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
are able to express their views and opinions in relation | :52:06. | :52:07. | |
to his policies and approach, and I encourage people | :52:08. | :52:09. | |
to continue to do that. But the idea that we can't | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
engage with him is I think the biggest | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
problem that I think is emerging for people | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
in a lot of the stuff that | :52:19. | :52:19. | |
Donald Trump is talking about and expressing | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
is that it's just far from clear | :52:23. | :52:24. | |
what on earth he's doing or saying. a little bit of the press conference | :52:25. | :52:34. | |
before I came to this discussion tonight, and I just | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
couldn't fathom half of what President Trump | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
was on about. Now, I think, in amongst all that, | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
I worry that there might be a terrible naivete about dealing | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
with very significant and sensitive and difficult issues on the | :52:53. | :52:54. | |
international stage where wise, thoughtful caution is required to | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
decide what's the right thing to do. I don't think wise, thoughtful | :52:58. | :53:04. | |
caution are words that you would normally associate | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
with Donald Trump. We want wise, thoughtful reaction | :53:08. | :53:08. | |
to a completely different story. I find British foreign policy very | :53:09. | :53:18. | |
intriguing because we don't like Russia because of their persecution | :53:19. | :53:29. | |
of gay people, but we love Saudi Elizabeth Roddick, we just | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
have time to fit this in, please. This is the report that came out | :53:33. | :53:40. | |
this very week saying that vitamin D could spare people from | :53:41. | :53:51. | |
getting colds and flu. particularly in places in Glasgow | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
where you have shorter days and not much sunshine, vitamin D | :53:55. | :54:06. | |
according to the professor fluoride was added to the water, | :54:07. | :54:08. | |
as it is in the United States. I think it probably | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
should in Glasgow where there is the well-known | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
Glasgow effect because you have so You see, I live in the east | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
of Scotland where we get much But in general, I think it | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
wouldn't be harmful to Mark Littlewood are | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
you in favour of that It may or may not be a good idea | :54:27. | :54:37. | |
to include it, but I don't want politicians | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
deciding that we will. You don't want politicians | :54:43. | :54:43. | |
doing anything? You pretty much nailed | :54:44. | :54:45. | |
it right there. I don't want politicians | :54:46. | :54:47. | |
doing very much at all. You've pretty much | :54:48. | :54:49. | |
nailed it right there. If you want to buy | :54:50. | :54:51. | |
vitamin D supplements and Whether you live on the east | :54:52. | :54:53. | |
side or in Glasgow, We have more options in our diet | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
today than we have ever had There's a lot for people to get | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
their heads around if they want to be healthy, but please to God | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
don't leave this to some panel of John Swinney, would the Scottish | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
Government like to see it put into supplements actually got vitamin D? | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
people having to go out and buy I think the issue of | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
adding it to foods or to much more complex | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
question, but what... It's not a moral | :55:26. | :55:27. | |
issue, but I think it does affect people's | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
rights and their choices. That's why we have | :55:31. | :55:32. | |
to be careful here. Let me just share a personal | :55:33. | :55:34. | |
observation with you. My wife, as many people | :55:35. | :55:36. | |
in Scotland know, has instance of MS in Scotland is | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
particularly intense and one of the reasons is viewed to be | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
a vitamin D deficiency. I am a a big advocate. I take | :55:43. | :55:57. | |
vitamin D every day. My son takes them every day. My wife takes them. | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
There is a big issue about recognising our circumstances here | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
and the need, perhaps, to take that supplement and enhance that | :56:08. | :56:09. | |
capability because of our circumstances. But there is a | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
different issue about whether that should then be made compulsory. All | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
right. It's a very significant point. It's not making it | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
compulsory... It would be in the milk. You don't have to drink the | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
milk! People who can't afford - APPLAUSE. Briefly, if you would. Not | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
everybody actually drinks milk. Vegans don't. They do drink other | :56:39. | :56:47. | |
types of milk and many people would be very angry at supplements being | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
added to their food that may not come from an ethical source or a | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
source that they felt they could eat or drink. Shami, be quick on this. | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
We are coming to the end. It's well saying leaving the politics out. | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
It's well saying we will spend the money on supplements what if you | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
can't afford your food, let alone your supplements. That is the | :57:14. | :57:20. | |
biggest problem here. David Mundell? I'm in agreement with John Swinney. | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
John highlights the really important issues in relation to any it edition | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
to food. There are people who would benefit from that, but there are | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
other people who need and should be given the choice. It's getting the | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
balance right. OK. Our time is up. Sorry. I know, it's always like | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
that. Particularly in Glasgow, I have to say. | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
We're in Stoke-on-Trent next week with the Education Secretary, | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
Justine Greening, and the Chairman of Stoke City Football | :57:56. | :57:57. | |
To come and take part in our audience in Stoke or Bedford, | :57:58. | :58:06. | |
go to our website or call 0330 123 99 88. | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
If you are listening tonight on Radio 5 Live, the debate goes | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
They will be discussing this until 1.00am. Our panel is exhausted. They | :58:17. | :58:31. | |
have to go home. I thank them and all of you who came to take part. | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
From Glasgow and until Question Time next Thursday, good night. | :58:37. | :58:43. | |
APPLAUSE Donald Trump's first 100 days | :58:44. | :59:04. | |
in the White House are defining how he'll deal | :59:05. | :59:06. | |
with the rest of the world. the UK is stepping up | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
the formal business of Brexit. | :59:13. | :59:15. |