23/02/2017 Question Time


23/02/2017

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Stoke-on-Trent Central has been voting today in the by-election,

:00:07.:00:24.

after Tristram Hunt left to run the Victoria and Albert Museum.

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The polls have closed and so our panel is free to say

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On the panel Education Secretary, and Conservative MP for Putney

:00:34.:00:42.

Her Labour Shadow, and a woman talked about as a possible successor

:00:43.:00:46.

to Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the party, Angela Rayner.

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Ukip's sole MP who defected from the Conservatives in 2014,

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The chairman of Stoke City Football Club

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and the owner of the online bookmaker, Bet365,

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And the journalist and co-author of a controversial biography

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APPLAUSE Thank you very much.

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As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook,

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First question comes from Aden. Does the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn

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still represent the working class and communities such as Stoke?

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Justine Greening. Stoke has been a safe Labour seat since it was

:01:46.:01:49.

created decades ago. The answer to your question is no, there was a

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time when Labour had something to say to working people but that time

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I think has passed. It would be interesting to see what the results

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are in Stoke later. The fact we are talking about the fact that Labour

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might lose the seat tells you about the predicament the party is in

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because they are not representing working people around the country. I

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think it is the Conservative Party with Theresa May that is setting

:02:19.:02:23.

about making sure we have a low tax economy, jobs and careers for people

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and somebody who is standing up for us as we leave the EU and getting a

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good deal for Britain. The polls close to 50 minutes ago. Any

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indication of what has happened? We will have to wait and see. If there

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is one thing we have learned is probably not to rely on polls. As in

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the opinion polls. Have you got any indication how it has gone tonight?

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I don't take anything for granted, ever. Do you think you have won? I

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don't know. I have not been at the ballot box. My information is it

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looks like Labour has taken a seat. Peter Coates. I think Labour made

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the mistake, it does represent working people. I don't accept the

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Tories represent working people and Labour doesn't. APPLAUSE

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It has never been like that in my lifetime and I don't believe it is

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today. I do see an opportunity because the

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Labour Party is in a bit of a mess and Jeremy Corbyn as leader, has

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obviously not connected with the great British public. I think the

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majority do not see him as a future Prime Minister. It has its work cut

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out, as with Scotland, Scotland was taken for granted. I hope it is a

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wake-up call for Labour to realise that they have got to make sure they

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represent places such as Stoke and there are many places like Stoke

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around the country, and get their act together. What we need is a

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leader who can connect with a great British public, has a chance of

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winning. And of course UV policies. APPLAUSE

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-- you deed. Peter, what is it you think that

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goes wrong. If you said the party does not represent properly places

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like Stoke, what is it that goes wrong with a party, is it because it

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is complacent because it is re-elected? I think complacency

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plays a part. You get taken for granted. I think Scotland got taken

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for granted and Labour got wiped out and they are in danger unless they

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get their act together and realise their priority is to ensure

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working-class people are properly represented and considered and a

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part of this country, they will suffer. I think there is a

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realisation now within the party this has got to be done. You, on the

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second row. Can I ask the panel if they say Labour no longer represents

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the working class, who does represent the working class? Lets

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search for that. Douglas Carswell. I don't think the Labour Party does

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represent the traditional working-class vote it used to

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represent. It is no longer the party of Keir Hardie. If Labour holds the

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seat and I think it is likely, the fact it is regarded as a triumph

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tells you quite how dire the crisis is on the centre-left in British

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politics. There is a fundamental problem with the Labour Party and it

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goes beyond the shortcomings of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. It used

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to represent the interests of organised labour. For many

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generations it has represented the interest of career politicians in

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London and there is a fundamental disconnect between the Parliamentary

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party and traditional Labour votes. I think there is a race to see who

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can take their place. The Liberal party used to hold sway in fast

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parts of the country. I think we could see a new insurgent party if

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it gets its act together that can displace the Labour Party. There is

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an opportunity for a different type of party. Just before we go on. Ukip

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had its new leader Paul Nuttall standing here and you seem to have

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conceded he has not won. I think the most likely outcome is Labour will

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win. Stoke is not even in our top 50 target seats. It has been a Labour

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voting constituency did since 1950. If we were to win, it would be such

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an earthquake, it would be akin to the Spen Valley election of 1919

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which mark the demise of the old Liberal party. I know about

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by-elections, we fought and got a good swing to my new party in

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Clacton. In terms of the mechanics of the campaign, Paul Nuttall and

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Ukip have fought a good campaign in terms of organisational structure,

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and we have not had the South Thanet mayhem we have had in previous

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contests. You have had the Hillsborough mayhem. The man with

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his hand up. If Paul Nuttall does not win tonight, can we expect his

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new house in Stoke to be back on the market tomorrow? LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

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All right. Hardly be lived in. Angela Rayner. I

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recognise people'sfrustration with the Labour Party. I was elected in

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2015 and I am probably one of the only people on the panel who had a

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manual job, a home carer before coming into Parliament, and I come

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from the trade union, and not one where I was elected rather than

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appointed into it. I feel the frustration and I am what people

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consider to be a safe Labour seat but I have never seen my seat is

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safe Labour. Scotland is a wake-up call to insure we do that. People

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feel left behind by successive governments that have not rebalance

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the economy. Labour did great things, we built schools and

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invested in the NHS, but the infrastructure and economy around

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our areas, we feel like we are on our knees and not supported and they

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are not supplying the economies will stop the help required in the

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Midlands, Northwest, north-east and in areas where they feel left behind

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after the deindustrialisation of the UK. APPLAUSE

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When Mr Corbyn says its problems with the media that is doing him

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down, you don't agree? We have always had problems with the

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media. You cannot blame everything on the media. Donald Trump stars. --

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does. The problem with the country is we have stopped making things and

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become a giant warehouse and we need to produce again. People will vote

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for people who get us back on our feet and producing and making more

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things. And the sign that comes out of Labour does not resonate with

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you? Nobody at the moment. Isabel Oakeshott. I think whatever the

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result tonight, Jeremy Corbyn should go.

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APPLAUSE Nobody literally nobody except

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possibly Angela Rayner looks at Jeremy Corbyn and thinks he will be

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Prime Minister. I think the current Labour leadership is diluted, it is

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discredited, and doomed. Frankly it is doing a great disservice to those

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of us who want to see a robust opposition to the Tory government.

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APPLAUSE You, sir. I disagree. I think Jeremy

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Corbyn is a wonderful leader. If he is given the chance. He is an honest

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man and sincere man and he does not stretch the truth like Ukip does.

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Who is not giving him the chance? His party? The media, for a start.

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What about his party? His Shadow Cabinet who resigned? Stoke-on-Trent

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is a Labour supporting area and surely Angela Rayner and people like

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her should stand behind their leader. Peter Coates, I will come to

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you, but the woman there. I struggle to understand what people

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want from a leader. I think Jeremy Corbyn has integrity and is honest.

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When I have been to Stoke to rallies he has spoken act, he has got great

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support. -- spoken at. I want an honest leader, not somebody who is

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all singing and dancing but tells lies, or is disingenuous. I want

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somebody honest and with integrity and I think Jeremy Corbyn has got

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that. Peter Coates. First of all I want to

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pick up on the comment about manufacturing. Stoke has retained

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many factories. Something like 13.5% of output of this city. It is the

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highest manufacturing contribution of any city in the UK. We have done

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rather well comparatively. I am afraid we have to realise these

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manufacturing jobs by and large are not coming back but the ceramic

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industry has got itself together and is doing well and growing, taking on

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more jobs. Do not despair in that sense. The city from a manufacturing

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point of view has done well. You, sir. I don't think it matters who

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Labour have as leader, I think they will be wiped out at the next

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election anyway. Why? They are 18 points behind in the polls. A lot of

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working-class people have gone to Ukip, like myself. I have voted

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Labour all my life and I would not vote them again because they do not

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represent my view of the world. How did you vote today? I voted for

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Ukip. Let's talk about Ukip. Heath. Just before we go one, Bedford next

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week, if you are listening in Bedford. Sunderland the week after.

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That is where Question Time will be. Stephen Heath, can we have your

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question? Is defeat for Ukip in the Brexit capital by-election today the

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end of the party? The Brexit capital is what Paul Nuttall called Stoke

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because it was in the top group of parts of the country that voted for

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Brexit. If they are defeated here, is it the end of the party, Angela

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Rayner? I think Ukip are a busted flush. They are a one issue party.

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Both of the main political parties said they respect the will of the

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people. They have triggered Article 50. We will look at the best still

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possible. Ukip have no strategy on how to be in government and cannot

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even tell the truth. Their leader has told so many lies, he makes

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Donald Trump looked honest. APPLAUSE Douglas Carswell? We were always the

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underdogs in this contest. We were always up against a party that has

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been elected in Stoke since the middle of the last century. But, you

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know, I think that, although we fought a good campaign in terms of

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the mechanics of the campaign, I do accept that we have a problem and

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that was evident in this contest as it's been evident in other election

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contests and that is that we are not given the benefit of the doubt. I

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think the benefit of the doubt in politics is absolutely worth its

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weight in gold. In any by-election, in any election whatsoever you will

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get things thrown at you, people will look at old blog posts and what

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you wrote on Twitter some years ago, I understand the Labour Party had a

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few issues with that. If people give you the benefit of the doubt, you

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can get through that. We as a party need to ask ourselves, what is it

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about our values and about us that mean many people aren't giving us

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the benefit of the doubt. That's a key question regardless of the

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outcome of the by-election I think we need to ask ourselves on Friday

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morning. If we are going to be credible, we need to understand why

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it is people have not given us the benefit of the doubt. I think a lot

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of it is to do with the legacies of the Shock and Awe tactics we had in

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the run-up to the last election. There are issues to do with that

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that need to be addressed in order for us to win seats.

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How can you carry on as a party when Nigel Farage, who is seen as, apart

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from you, as the main Ukip candidate, says you shouldn't be in

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the party and doesn't believe in what they stand for. Farage and you

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seem to be completely at odds at what Ukip is. He seems to represent

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Ukip, you are the leader of Ukip in the House of Commons. He's

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representing Ukip or LBC in Washington, I'm not going to have a

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dig at him though. You just did, Douglas, you just did. I think he's

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done some great things. I think it's because of him that Ukip became the

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force that it's been but I think now Paul has to take us to the next

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level and I think he's begun to do that. You are banging on about

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giving the benefit of the doubt. Unless you know something the rest

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of us don't, you are not even giving your own party the benefit of the

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doubt, you are sounding as though it'ses a definite defeat for Ukip

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tonight. We don't know that. Secondly, as I was making my way up

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here tonight, I had a very interesting tip-off and since we are

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here, I thought I would ask you directly about it. David has

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mentioned the feud between yourself and Nigel Farage which you yourself

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brought up - I understand that Nigel Farage should have got a Knighthood,

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I personally believe he deserves to get a nighthood and he was...

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APPLAUSE. He was certainly put forward for a

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Knighthood and it appeared that everything was going swimmingly

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until you were asked to give your endorsement to that and you failed

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to do so. Was that true? That's simply not the case. That's

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certainly what I've heard. I would love it if I had the power to give

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Knight haths. I said you were asked to give your backing to it. I

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absolutely... So you were never asked to give backing or feedback or

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comment on it? Absolutely not at all. Is it in your power to give

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Knighthoods to Nigel Farage? I wish it were. Would you? I've often

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called him Sir. I don't know what we make of that. Justine Greening? It

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Liams like Ukip was a one-man party at the end of the day. A Carswell or

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Farage party? He's got through a few leaders so maybe Douglas can do it

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next. Before the referendum last year, I mean clearly Ukip campaigned

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for us to come out of Europe and it seems to me that part of the problem

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is, people don't know what Ukip stands for now and also the

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characters involved and the question about Paul Nuttall putting his house

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on the market perhaps tomorrow morning. I think there's a sense of

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people not knowing what Paul Nuttall stood forrant and didn't have a

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sense as to who was going to benefit from him getting elected, was it

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people in Stoke who needed a local MP to represent their community or

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was it going to be Paul Nuttall who wanted more profile for Paul Nuttall

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and it seemed to everyone like it was the latter. You, Sir? Douglas

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just made a point about Ukip like having a good campaign this time

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around, but I think one of the fundamental things that Paul Nat

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tall got wrong is, if he's going to apply to be a Member of Parliament

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for Stoke, one of the things he should know, this city's got six

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towns and he should be able to name every one of those six towns. Once

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he got that wrong, all his credibility was gone. And you? It's

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not true that Ukip didn't see this as a target. They threw everything

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at this election, including how an expensive shop in the middle of

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Hanley. You haven't had the benefit of your lies, you haven't been given

:19:25.:19:28.

the benefit of the division and the benefit of the hate. That's what the

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people have voted against you. APPLAUSE.

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We are talking about the present Ukip leader Paul Nuttall and you've

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heard me criticise Jeremy Corbyn tonight, well he seems a paragon of

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virtue to me compared with Paul Nuttall. If that's the best Ukip can

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do... APPLAUSE.

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If that's the best they can do, they are in a mess. They're a party of

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anti-immigration and out of Europe and they are trying to come in and

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take this working class vote, as they're talk about, and there's

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nothing I've heard come from Paul Nuttall that would suggest he's got

:20:17.:20:21.

any interest in the values of working class people. The most

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important thing for working class people is the National Health

:20:25.:20:29.

Service and he's talked about, he'd like to do away with privatising it.

:20:30.:20:34.

As for Nigel Farage, he's damaged the country beyond measure for me

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because... APPLAUSE.

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Because Don't be misled because of Europe. This is going to play out

:20:52.:20:58.

very badly for Britain. The woman on the gangway? Sorry, I don't have to

:20:59.:21:04.

agree with that point, Peter. Unfortunately, I think you are

:21:05.:21:06.

speaking for a minority in Stoke-on-Trent. We had the highest

:21:07.:21:12.

percentage that voted to leave the EU and with respect, I think the

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downfall of Ukip is down to the fact that Nigel Farage is no longer their

:21:16.:21:20.

leader. It doesn't mean you're right. Just a

:21:21.:21:30.

word Douglas before we go on. Brexit says Brexit means the Prime Minister

:21:31.:21:34.

and keeps saying it. That is what Ukip wants. What is there for them

:21:35.:21:38.

to do if that is what the Conservative Party is doing? I think

:21:39.:21:43.

politics is a cartel, it's run by a two-and-a-half party system in

:21:44.:21:47.

Westminster. We've got them to do the right thing by Brexit by Ukip's

:21:48.:21:52.

efforts forcing the referendum and winning the referendum. But there

:21:53.:21:55.

are all sorts of other things we need to change. Politics is a cartel

:21:56.:21:58.

and until that's broken, we are never going to get the politicians

:21:59.:22:02.

to represent us properly. Things around Brexit or are you talking

:22:03.:22:07.

about quite different things? Monetary policy - that for the past

:22:08.:22:10.

generation's favoured big banks in London rather than manufacturing in

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towns like Stoke. We need a monetary policy run in the interests of the

:22:14.:22:17.

whole country, not the small banking oligarch here in London.

:22:18.:22:24.

You, Sir? Do you feel that the Brexit and Trump phenomenon's that

:22:25.:22:28.

are happening across the world are correlated to racism or any of that

:22:29.:22:32.

stuff? What do you think? I think it's because everyone is completely

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disillusioned with the political clath class in tuft kingdom.

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APPLAUSE. -- political class in the United

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Kingdom? Angela? Everyone is fed up with those who've not been

:22:53.:22:55.

representing them or speaking on their behalf and, actually, it

:22:56.:22:58.

wasn't Ukip that delivered Brexit, it was the people. It was the will

:22:59.:23:00.

of the people. APPLAUSE.

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It will be carried out by all of the MPs that are in Parliament,

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otherwise at their peril if they don't listen to the will of the

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people because that's our democracy and we respect our democracy. We

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have got to move on from that and start talking about OK, people were

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blaming Europe as why we weren't having the jobs here, immigration

:23:20.:23:23.

was the issue. Now they are not the issues, get on and start building

:23:24.:23:27.

and building our industries around here and giving our young people

:23:28.:23:30.

jobs and opportunities. That's what people want.

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APPLAUSE. You at the very back? I'm not

:23:36.:23:40.

surprised they are disillusioned because in an area that voted for

:23:41.:23:46.

them to leave, Labour put up a candidate that's a massive remainor.

:23:47.:23:49.

He's been absolutely clear throughout his campaign, although he

:23:50.:23:52.

was personally a remainor, that he respects the will of the people and

:23:53.:23:56.

he would have voted to trigger Article 50 and Labour voted to

:23:57.:24:01.

trigger Article 50. He's not been shouting about it though has he? If

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he gets quizzed on it, he answers it but he hasn't mentioned it all

:24:07.:24:10.

along. I can only talk about what we've done and the record that we've

:24:11.:24:13.

had and we have been absolutely clear. Jeremy, as our leader, has

:24:14.:24:18.

been absolutely clear that we were a party of remain, just like the

:24:19.:24:23.

Conservatives were, but the electorate voted out, so we are

:24:24.:24:30.

coming out of Europe. You mention disillusionment, what's the point in

:24:31.:24:34.

putting a Remainor in an area that people don't want that. They don't

:24:35.:24:38.

want that in Stoke. How many members of the Labour Party in the House of

:24:39.:24:41.

Commons voted against Article 50? There was a number... How many? A

:24:42.:24:46.

number of... How many? There was a number... One in five. There was

:24:47.:24:53.

a... He's got a point. You have got to understand that their

:24:54.:24:56.

constituents, they voted for overwhelmingly remaining. People in

:24:57.:25:02.

Stoke voted overwhelmingly to leave. So why choose a Remainor? Why would

:25:03.:25:08.

you choose that? If the constituents vote here to Leave, why select a

:25:09.:25:14.

Remainor? Gareth was clear in his hustings and has been clear

:25:15.:25:18.

throughout the whole of his candidacy that he respects the will

:25:19.:25:21.

of the people. Fine, let us leave that and see what happens if he is

:25:22.:25:27.

elected. We hear that Copeland has been held by Labour. The Tories

:25:28.:25:32.

haven't taken that. It's people at the count looking at people's faces

:25:33.:25:37.

I suspect and showing whether they are disappointed or not. If The man

:25:38.:25:45.

by the monitor? Two brief points. Angela Rayner, about the MPs who

:25:46.:25:52.

voted against triggering Article 50 were from constituencies which

:25:53.:25:57.

overwhelmingly backed remain. I don't remember Newcastle under

:25:58.:26:01.

Leinbaching remain and Paul Farrelly backing not triggering Article 50.

:26:02.:26:05.

Back to the essence of the question, I think that I will say that I voted

:26:06.:26:11.

for Ukip in this by-election, but Ukip has fundamentally failed to do

:26:12.:26:15.

what it needs to do. It's not been able to get rid of the image of

:26:16.:26:23.

racism or unprofessionalty. You voted for it you say? I voted for it

:26:24.:26:28.

because... APPLAUSE.

:26:29.:26:33.

I voted for it because I saw the other issues which it wasn't

:26:34.:26:37.

campaigning enough about. It needs to stress if it wants to campaign

:26:38.:26:42.

against the massive white elephants brought about by the party, HSII...

:26:43.:26:48.

OK, so you had other reasons apart from the Brexit? I think that... All

:26:49.:26:56.

right. Let us stick with it albeit in a slightly different manner with

:26:57.:27:00.

a question from Joan Fox, please? Has Tony Blair's intervention on

:27:01.:27:05.

Brexit helped or hindered the Remain cause? A word about Tony Blair's

:27:06.:27:13.

intervention who said, we are going to be poorer once these Brexit

:27:14.:27:16.

negotiations are complete, the country is going to be poorer and

:27:17.:27:21.

everybody will say that leaving is inevitable, but it isn't. Angela

:27:22.:27:28.

Rayner, is he right? We are triggering Article 50 and leaving

:27:29.:27:31.

Europe, that is clear, that's what... Do people have a right to

:27:32.:27:34.

change their mind, as Tony Blair said? Tony Blair's a right to his

:27:35.:27:38.

opinion and there is a lot of people in this country that hold the same

:27:39.:27:41.

view as Tony Blair. You've got to respect that some people have that

:27:42.:27:46.

view. But let's be clear that we are going down that road of leaving

:27:47.:27:49.

Europe and it's about what sort of economy we have and how we untangle

:27:50.:27:53.

some of the selection around that because we need to bring that back.

:27:54.:27:58.

We can't keep going on having the same argument like ground hog day,

:27:59.:28:02.

are we going out of Europe, are we going out. We are going out, people

:28:03.:28:05.

are fed up with people intervening trying to rehash it, we don't want

:28:06.:28:09.

to go there again, move on, get on with the real job of bringing jobs

:28:10.:28:12.

and the economy back to where we want it. Back to what your former

:28:13.:28:18.

leader said - as the terms become clear of Brexit, he said, if people

:28:19.:28:23.

are going to change their minds, our mission is to persuade them to do

:28:24.:28:26.

so. In other words if things don't turn out well, Labour should be in a

:28:27.:28:29.

position to say, you don't have to go there, Parliament should be in a

:28:30.:28:33.

position to say this hasn't worked out as Douglas Carswell thought it

:28:34.:28:40.

might. Is that a fair position? Well, the last 18 months since I've

:28:41.:28:45.

been elected to Parliament are not what I thought they'd be so I'm not

:28:46.:28:49.

predicting because I would never have predicted that we'd be where we

:28:50.:28:52.

are today with Donald Trump. There is no will of the people to rehash

:28:53.:28:56.

and have the argument again and again, we are coming out of Europe,

:28:57.:28:59.

I'm focussed on getting the best deal for the working class people of

:29:00.:29:02.

Britain making sure that I do the stuff as a Labour politician that

:29:03.:29:05.

will make people of Stoke and the rest of the working class people in

:29:06.:29:09.

this country proud of the Labour Party.

:29:10.:29:10.

Fine. APPLAUSE.

:29:11.:29:18.

Douglas, I will come to you but Justine Greening, how did you vote

:29:19.:29:26.

on the issue of Remain, Leave? I supported the Brexit bill that went

:29:27.:29:29.

through Parliament. On June the 23rd? Remain. In the same way most

:29:30.:29:39.

people in Stoke were for Leave, I was opposite. If the negotiations do

:29:40.:29:44.

not go as you hope they will and the Prime Minister hopes they will, if

:29:45.:29:48.

it gets difficult and is not quite what is expected, if Tony Blair is

:29:49.:29:52.

right to the country is poorer, there are fewer jobs as a result,

:29:53.:29:56.

should it be the House of Commons' business to say, we will change our

:29:57.:30:01.

mind, we will not do it like this, or is it game, set and match to

:30:02.:30:06.

Leave? The Prime Minister said we will get on with Brexit. The

:30:07.:30:12.

question asked, to answer it, anybody who is still campaigning for

:30:13.:30:15.

Remain is hindered by Tony Blair getting involved. It is almost the

:30:16.:30:21.

kiss of death. We talked about why people are disillusioned. A lot of

:30:22.:30:24.

the roots of disillusionment started when Tony Blair was Prime Minister,

:30:25.:30:29.

he said he wanted people to get out in the street who cared about

:30:30.:30:32.

Europe. He ignored them when they did that in relation to the Iraq

:30:33.:30:37.

War. He represents the elite politician that was a complete

:30:38.:30:41.

turn-off for millions of this country and I think he is

:30:42.:30:45.

discredited to enter the discussion about where our future is after the

:30:46.:30:50.

EU and I think it is outrageous he has got the cheek to turn around to

:30:51.:30:55.

the British people and say to them he does not accept the decision we

:30:56.:30:58.

took in our referendum. APPLAUSE

:30:59.:31:10.

The Mall at the very back. A large part of economic performance is down

:31:11.:31:15.

to public sentiment and every time a high-profile person comes on

:31:16.:31:18.

television and says we are going to be poorer and Brexit will hurt us,

:31:19.:31:23.

it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If people believe that, it will hurt

:31:24.:31:29.

us. Peter Coates, do you agree? I believe it will hurt and damage us

:31:30.:31:33.

very much and I think there is a distinction on voting coming out and

:31:34.:31:41.

what the terms are. I find it difficult to disagree with anything

:31:42.:31:45.

he said and he has every right to say it, Tony Blair, and this in my

:31:46.:31:50.

view will cost us dearly, unless, the caveat is, I do not know what

:31:51.:31:55.

the terms will be. If we come out and are able to stay in the single

:31:56.:32:01.

market, we will be fine. If we come out, we will be in deep trouble.

:32:02.:32:06.

Don't take much notice of the last six months, the next two years, this

:32:07.:32:12.

is a long game. We shall see this play out over the two, three, five

:32:13.:32:16.

years. We will look back and say, why did we do that? I started my

:32:17.:32:24.

business in 1968 and I do not know what the European Union has stopped

:32:25.:32:31.

me doing. I hear talk about... It stopped me doing nothing. I never

:32:32.:32:36.

felt I was governed by Parliament. I have MPs around me and I believe

:32:37.:32:42.

they govern us. I have never felt governed other than by Westminster.

:32:43.:32:47.

The law courts. We built Europe into a bogeyman it is not and time will

:32:48.:32:48.

tell. APPLAUSE

:32:49.:32:58.

I have no idea how you can possibly be so negative at this stage, when

:32:59.:33:04.

all the signs so far, you are quick to dismiss, are positive. The banks

:33:05.:33:10.

are upgrading forecasts, none of the predictions of doom we had about

:33:11.:33:14.

terrible economic crashes the minute we voted to leave have materialised.

:33:15.:33:19.

How can you be so incredibly pessimistic? What you are talking

:33:20.:33:25.

about is so short-term as to be completely and utterly irrelevant.

:33:26.:33:32.

You have to look at the longer term. Let me tell you something about our

:33:33.:33:38.

economy. Peter, Peter. Let's Douglas Carswell have a say. About 20 years

:33:39.:33:45.

ago Tony Blair, Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine sat on the stage

:33:46.:33:48.

like this and warned that if we did not give up the pound and join the

:33:49.:33:53.

euro, the economy would suffer. We were told again and again we could

:33:54.:33:59.

not afford to be part of Europe. -- euro. Thank goodness we did not take

:34:00.:34:04.

their advice. I expect in ten years it will be difficult to find people

:34:05.:34:11.

who were saying they were actively campaigning to remain. You take the

:34:12.:34:16.

example of the euro and did use the same is true, this is bigger than

:34:17.:34:20.

the euro, leaving. Trying to organise the economic and social

:34:21.:34:24.

affairs of hundreds of millions by grand design leads to catastrophe

:34:25.:34:28.

and by insulating ourselves from the worst aspects, the euro, Schengen,

:34:29.:34:34.

our strength in Euro policy is not joining in. We do not want to fight

:34:35.:34:42.

the June 23 debate. The negotiations are about to begin and the question

:34:43.:34:48.

is, the Tony Blair point com if they are not going well, is Parliament in

:34:49.:34:53.

a position to modify Britain's exit from the EU? I think it is unhelpful

:34:54.:34:57.

for Tony Blair to make this intervention because I want a new

:34:58.:35:02.

consensus on Europe and a deal that allows Angela, Justine and Paul

:35:03.:35:06.

Nuttall to agree on a new consensus on Europe. It has been divisive. I

:35:07.:35:11.

do not want to go through the referendum again, I want a new

:35:12.:35:16.

national consensus and the idea that yesterday's man, the man responsible

:35:17.:35:23.

for providing over the boom and bust can wade in and say, present the

:35:24.:35:26.

fantasy idea that somehow not leaving is an option is unhelpful.

:35:27.:35:32.

APPLAUSE A number of hands are up.

:35:33.:35:36.

You answer him. Let's get back to the economy, the car industry, a

:35:37.:35:41.

success in this country, because we have been bailed out by foreign

:35:42.:35:49.

companies, and the investment in our car industry is from India, America,

:35:50.:35:56.

France, Germany. They have sorted the problem is out. They put proper

:35:57.:36:02.

investment in, long-term investment. Britain does not do long-term

:36:03.:36:06.

investment well. We rely on international investment in this

:36:07.:36:09.

country and we shall become less attractive. You do not have to

:36:10.:36:14.

agree, but wait and see. Why do you think it will go pear shaped? The

:36:15.:36:24.

negotiations have not begun. We have a trade deficit and it is the

:36:25.:36:31.

highest for 70 years. Is that great? The highest in 70 years. The thing I

:36:32.:36:36.

agree with Peter on is it is about the terms, not about whether we are

:36:37.:36:41.

coming out or not. We have businesses and trading partners in

:36:42.:36:45.

Europe we need to make sure... We cannot do it piecemeal, which is

:36:46.:36:48.

what the government seems to be doing with the car dealerships. We

:36:49.:36:53.

have to make sure we support small and medium enterprises in Britain to

:36:54.:36:56.

make sure they can continue to trade with Europe. Since the vote we have

:36:57.:37:03.

had a range of companies announce huge investment in the UK whether it

:37:04.:37:12.

is Google, apple, there has been a huge amount of investment coming

:37:13.:37:17.

into the UK the. Let me go to the audience. The woman and then you.

:37:18.:37:24.

Given Tony Blair's track record is taking us to war on the flimsiest of

:37:25.:37:32.

evidence, why should anybody take his advice? Most people'sinstinctive

:37:33.:37:36.

reaction to his advice is to do exactly the opposite.

:37:37.:37:41.

APPLAUSE Yes? I agree with the lady who has

:37:42.:37:50.

just spoken. I think Tony Blair should now keep quiet, tend his

:37:51.:37:54.

garden or allotment at home. I think his intervention recently, as many

:37:55.:38:05.

commentators said, to harm Jeremy Corbyn. He was hoping by him making

:38:06.:38:11.

this intervention, he wished dent any potential of Labour gaining in

:38:12.:38:18.

the by-elections today. If the reports coming through are correct,

:38:19.:38:23.

it looks as though Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party has in fact gained the

:38:24.:38:30.

elections today. Held, we should save. The man here. There are many

:38:31.:38:36.

things about Tony Blair I disagree with but I respect his right to say

:38:37.:38:41.

what he thinks. APPLAUSE

:38:42.:38:47.

The most important thing in the past few months was the Gina Miller case

:38:48.:38:50.

and I had a mini numberplate made with her name on and attached it to

:38:51.:38:55.

my car and drove it around one day to celebrate the fact Parliament

:38:56.:39:00.

would decide and not just Mrs May. I left it on one day because I thought

:39:01.:39:09.

I would get my car keyed. It was Tony Blair's fault why

:39:10.:39:16.

Britain voted out of Europe. He said 50,000 people would come into this

:39:17.:39:19.

country and 1 million people came in. Too much change to quickly and

:39:20.:39:24.

that is why people turn to Ukip. What do you make of David Davis

:39:25.:39:29.

saying it will be years and years and years before we end immigration?

:39:30.:39:35.

It will be. It is Tony Blair's fault. He should have put a cap on

:39:36.:39:41.

it and slowly done it. There is another point here. Having

:39:42.:39:46.

politicians, former politicians like Tony Blair, talking about a second

:39:47.:39:52.

referendum, some kind of veto, really undermines our Prime Minister

:39:53.:39:56.

she begins this process of negotiation. It is pulling the rug

:39:57.:40:02.

from under her. I think it is deep in the arm patriotic to do that.

:40:03.:40:10.

APPLAUSE -- unpatriotic. Where was Tony Blair

:40:11.:40:15.

when Stoke-on-Trent was losing jobs? Too busy messing around Europe

:40:16.:40:17.

rather than looking after his own people. We will go onto another

:40:18.:40:24.

question. Shouldn't the government be doing

:40:25.:40:30.

more to improve the educational level in the country rather than

:40:31.:40:33.

just focusing on creating more grammar schools. We are creating a

:40:34.:40:41.

gap in the north and south divide we have in education. The grammar

:40:42.:40:47.

schools the government has announced proposals, we have two, we have the

:40:48.:40:51.

education minister and the shadow. Proposals to allow new grammar

:40:52.:40:56.

schools. Is that still on the cards? You are smiling as if you are not

:40:57.:41:02.

quite sure about this policy. You want to drop it? Not at all. You are

:41:03.:41:08.

keen on it? We had consultation that finished in December and we are

:41:09.:41:11.

going through results and will set out the next steps in the spring. We

:41:12.:41:16.

want to take away the band that stops grammar schools being created.

:41:17.:41:21.

They are popular with parents. As important, you talked about how we

:41:22.:41:25.

can make sure we lift up young people and everybody comes out of

:41:26.:41:29.

schools with a great education. When you look at disadvantaged children

:41:30.:41:33.

who go to grammar schools their progress is twice as fast in a

:41:34.:41:38.

grammar school as they're better off peers. It is part of how we close

:41:39.:41:44.

the gap. It is not the whole of our approach on education. A few weeks

:41:45.:41:48.

ago I announced Oak would be an opportunity area, which means we

:41:49.:41:53.

work inside schools in Stoke to raise outcomes for children but also

:41:54.:41:58.

outside with local businesses and the community, making sure young

:41:59.:42:04.

people have work experience, mentoring, and we are doing that in

:42:05.:42:08.

12 places where we think we can make a difference. Your answer to him is

:42:09.:42:14.

you are not just focusing on grammar schools but you are still committed

:42:15.:42:18.

to the expansion of grammar schools? Yes, and we want to ensure every

:42:19.:42:23.

child can reach their potential, which means having an education

:42:24.:42:27.

system that meets the different needs of children and grammar

:42:28.:42:30.

schools are a part of that and it is time we understood that. The system

:42:31.:42:34.

has changed massively in the last ten years and it is time to look at

:42:35.:42:41.

how grammar schools can play a role. Not just the children who get into

:42:42.:42:45.

grammar schools but other schools as well.

:42:46.:42:48.

The woman on the fourth row. I agree grammar schools are improving. I

:42:49.:42:55.

believe the old education system of having the three levels of schooling

:42:56.:43:02.

is something we should go back to. My mother went to a grammar school,

:43:03.:43:07.

Clayton Manor, locally around here, and again, like we have said, she

:43:08.:43:15.

worked twice as hard and got her scholarship and went forward. I do

:43:16.:43:19.

not think grammar schools are about a north-south divide, they should be

:43:20.:43:23.

for everybody and I can see that investment having a big impact on

:43:24.:43:28.

places like Stoke-on-Trent. Angela Rayner. I have to disagree with

:43:29.:43:31.

that. I don't think grammar schools are an answer to the crisis the

:43:32.:43:36.

government has created in schools. It is a life raft for children.

:43:37.:43:43.

APPLAUSE The crisis in our schools is that

:43:44.:43:49.

98% of schools are seeing significant funding cuts. The

:43:50.:43:54.

government promised in their manifesto that per-pupil funding

:43:55.:44:01.

would be protected, it hasn't. Pupil numbers are increasing, national

:44:02.:44:04.

insurers pressures, we have all these issues that are having an

:44:05.:44:09.

impact on our schools where they aren't looking at facing an 8% cut

:44:10.:44:14.

and the national funding formula is still a very unfair formula that is

:44:15.:44:18.

penalising children. Where are you on grammar schoolsI don't ink they

:44:19.:44:25.

aid social mobility. The evidence is clear it doesn't. There is not a

:44:26.:44:30.

scrap of evidence it does. The attainment gap is greater in Kent as

:44:31.:44:33.

opposed to Hackney, where there are no grammar schools in their area.

:44:34.:44:39.

2.6% of free school meals in grammars whereas in other schools

:44:40.:44:45.

its 14.9%. The evidence is clear. Grammar schools are not the answer.

:44:46.:44:49.

Qualified teachers and money in our state schools is. APPLAUSE

:44:50.:44:54.

options Is it not more of a Conservative driven theme for

:44:55.:45:03.

putting certain money into certain schools for certain children.

:45:04.:45:06.

APPLAUSE. Isabel? The one-size-fits-all policy

:45:07.:45:17.

clearly hasn't worked. When Blair came in, he said education,

:45:18.:45:22.

education, education. You said it's the failures of this Government, but

:45:23.:45:28.

actually, where are we now? We are 15th in the international

:45:29.:45:32.

educational league tables. We are behind Vietnam, so really the system

:45:33.:45:37.

that we've had and that we inherited from the Labour years hasn't worked.

:45:38.:45:42.

I disagree... If you look at the London challenge where Labour did

:45:43.:45:46.

invest all of that money, and we have got a comprehensive state

:45:47.:45:51.

system, actually the attainment gap was narrowed, it was transformative,

:45:52.:45:55.

we wanted that bring that to the Midlands and Manchester. The

:45:56.:45:59.

coalition Government scrapped it and they have not protected funding and

:46:00.:46:03.

Michael Gove said they would be held to account by the league tables and

:46:04.:46:07.

you failed because you have gone down that league table.

:46:08.:46:13.

APPLAUSE. The children who took the tests in

:46:14.:46:19.

the latest standard tables were children educated under Labour,

:46:20.:46:25.

Angela. You, Sir? Do I read correctly that the Government is

:46:26.:46:31.

planning to invest something approaching ?10 billion in free

:46:32.:46:38.

schools over the next period of years to about 20, 21 and we read

:46:39.:46:43.

almost daily reports of the underfunding of general schools,

:46:44.:46:47.

staffing crises, buildings falling to pieces and yet the Government can

:46:48.:46:52.

find ?10 billion for free schools - is that justified?

:46:53.:46:54.

APPLAUSE. Hold on.

:46:55.:47:01.

Let me bring in Douglas Carswell and Peter Coats and we'll come back to

:47:02.:47:09.

you on that? I'm massively in favour of free schools. Any debate about

:47:10.:47:14.

either Governments' record has to acknowledge that in all three

:47:15.:47:18.

parties, there have been some good reformers. Andrew Adonis, Michael

:47:19.:47:24.

Gove, they've given us the academy programme and that's helped and

:47:25.:47:27.

improved things in the education system. I hope Justine builds on

:47:28.:47:31.

that cross party achievement. When it comes to free schools, the reason

:47:32.:47:35.

why I'm so strongly in favour of them is, something that happened in

:47:36.:47:41.

my constituency as a new MP in 2005, a ?16 million brand-new school was

:47:42.:47:45.

opened by Tony Blair three days before the 2005 general election,

:47:46.:47:49.

?16 million it cost, it was closed three years later. The existing

:47:50.:47:53.

system doesn't allocate resources effectively. Imagine what you could

:47:54.:47:57.

do in terms of free schools with that sum of money in a town like

:47:58.:48:01.

Clacton which needs free schools. They are not just the preserve of

:48:02.:48:04.

people in places like London. Do you want to come babble on the point?

:48:05.:48:07.

There is evidence that certain free schools are being opened in areas

:48:08.:48:13.

which do not need them. My view is that there should be equality, that

:48:14.:48:17.

that money should be spread right across the system to give every

:48:18.:48:20.

child a good school in the area where he lives. With respect, Sir...

:48:21.:48:27.

APPLAUSE. With respect, Sir, shouldn't we

:48:28.:48:30.

leave it to the parents of the children to decide if those free

:48:31.:48:34.

schools are needed because by definition you can't open a free

:48:35.:48:38.

school unless there is a need for it. Peter Coates? Gram mar schools

:48:39.:48:44.

are irrelevant and do nothing to improve the schooling for our

:48:45.:48:47.

children. Isabel talked about where we are in the league, we have been

:48:48.:48:52.

in that position for God knows how long and we have had different

:48:53.:48:55.

Governments bring in reform, reform, reform. What the education system

:48:56.:49:04.

needs is - Finland reformed its education system in the 70s and 80s.

:49:05.:49:11.

It has one school system for every child, no private education - one

:49:12.:49:13.

system. APPLAUSE.

:49:14.:49:23.

That is how you get equality of opportunity and we are short of

:49:24.:49:29.

funds, we are short of teachers and they say, they are talking about how

:49:30.:49:34.

wonderful everything is. We can't fund the Health Service properly, we

:49:35.:49:38.

can't fund after-care service properly and we are short of

:49:39.:49:41.

teachers in education. It's all great. You, Sir? Under the national

:49:42.:49:57.

funding, 9,000 schools face cuts. Investing in young people and in

:49:58.:50:02.

youth, that is what you should do. I agree. There is record investment

:50:03.:50:07.

going into our schools. We have had to create lots of more school places

:50:08.:50:12.

because of the demographic bulge of children coming into primary, then

:50:13.:50:16.

moving into secondary. The last Parliament we created 600,000 school

:50:17.:50:19.

places, many of them were free schools but not by any means

:50:20.:50:24.

entirely, we have got to do another 600,000. You raised a good point

:50:25.:50:30.

about where the places were needed. The report that came out earlier

:50:31.:50:36.

this week said overwhelmingly they were so that is good news. As

:50:37.:50:40.

Douglas points out, under free schools, we had local communities

:50:41.:50:45.

able to take their own decisions about schools and that was really

:50:46.:50:49.

important. In term s TfL outcomes, Ofsted's said nine out of ten of our

:50:50.:50:53.

schools almost are good or outstanding, that is a huge rise

:50:54.:50:57.

from 2010. When we inherited a schools system that was seeing about

:50:58.:51:01.

a third of children coming out not even to do the basics on reading and

:51:02.:51:06.

writing, we had to come a long way, but we had year-by-year improving

:51:07.:51:10.

our system and we are going round the world, places like Shanghai in

:51:11.:51:16.

China to bring back the very best in teaching to make sure we can find

:51:17.:51:19.

the best of teaching across England as well to make sure that our

:51:20.:51:23.

teachers know how to teach the best that they possibly can and our

:51:24.:51:29.

children can benefit. More points from the audience. The woman up

:51:30.:51:35.

there? I currently attend a secondary school, an academy.

:51:36.:51:40.

Recently, I'm aware that the year below me are no longer doing work

:51:41.:51:45.

experience. We have a new GCSE, everyone seems so panicked,

:51:46.:51:47.

different schools are deciding what their pass rate is with the new

:51:48.:51:55.

system, I don't understand why we are voting on schools and schools

:51:56.:51:58.

that are trying hard aren't receiving the support they need and

:51:59.:52:02.

there is general information that we do not have. You on the gangway?

:52:03.:52:13.

Last year, only 54% of 11-year-olds reached the required level in Stoke.

:52:14.:52:19.

How can further cuts to the education system raise attainment?

:52:20.:52:26.

And you over there, Sir? Douglas has mentioned the success of the academy

:52:27.:52:31.

system. Why have we recently scrapped that and where's the money

:52:32.:52:34.

gone for that, about ?500 million that we have recently lost to invest

:52:35.:52:39.

in the academy system. There are a lot of questions and different

:52:40.:52:44.

answers. We've only got a few more minutes. I want to raise one other

:52:45.:52:48.

question. Can I come back very briefly on this. 30 seconds? I saw

:52:49.:52:53.

you nodding and smiling when Peter said there shouldn't be any private

:52:54.:52:58.

schools, is it your policy that you should be abolishing them? We should

:52:59.:53:02.

be moving towards a comprehensive system. You can't abolish them. What

:53:03.:53:09.

amazes me about what you said Justine is everything post-2010 that

:53:10.:53:13.

you claim credit for is your what you have done immediately,

:53:14.:53:15.

everything that's bad that's going on at the moment of the Government

:53:16.:53:20.

is the legacy of the last Labour Government, you can't have it both

:53:21.:53:24.

ways, you promised to protect per pupil programme, you have broken

:53:25.:53:29.

that promise. Don't all parties say it wasn't us it was them? I mean the

:53:30.:53:41.

facts are... Let's have a question. Abas I believery hammy, please? Is

:53:42.:53:46.

it ever right to compensate terror suspects? This is the case of the

:53:47.:53:55.

man that allegedly got ?1 million when he left Guantanamo Bay. Is it

:53:56.:53:59.

ever right to compensate terror suspects? It's absolutely deplorable

:54:00.:54:05.

that he should have got that money but even more deplorable that the

:54:06.:54:07.

Government should have lost track of this person, he was a former

:54:08.:54:11.

Guantanamo Bay detainee, how is it that we let this guy leave the

:54:12.:54:15.

country and head off to fight for Jihad?

:54:16.:54:22.

Douglas Carswell? I think what's truly shocking about this case is

:54:23.:54:25.

that we are not more shocked. We are so used to the idea of the British

:54:26.:54:30.

state being so high bound by human rights lawyers and compliance that

:54:31.:54:33.

there's little room for common-sense. We need I think to

:54:34.:54:39.

make certain that in cases such as soldiers being accused of wrongdoing

:54:40.:54:43.

in Iraq and cases like this, we need to make absolutely certain that we

:54:44.:54:50.

are not using legal aid, a million pound for someone in this case it's

:54:51.:54:58.

absolutely outrageous. Peter Coates? He was detained. He was detained.

:54:59.:55:07.

Unlawfully. He was detained unlawfully and he was possibly

:55:08.:55:10.

tortured, I don't know. Began began bay is a pretty awful place. And

:55:11.:55:16.

they put this man in, they had no evidence and they never did produce

:55:17.:55:25.

evidence Guantanamo Bay. Why he was paid compensation I don't know, it

:55:26.:55:28.

must have been hush money. It could have been hush money. The British

:55:29.:55:33.

Government was complicit in Guantanamo Bay and so I don't know

:55:34.:55:39.

all the story. On the face of it it seems terrible and Isis is an

:55:40.:55:43.

absolute abomination and we all want to see the end of it, but this

:55:44.:55:50.

individual, and where it went wrong, how the Security Services lost track

:55:51.:55:54.

of him, that would be my big question. I suppose these things are

:55:55.:55:58.

much more complicate and difficult than we think. Justine Greening? In

:55:59.:56:04.

the end, it depends on whether somebody is innocent or not. As

:56:05.:56:08.

Peter said, if they have been incarcerated for no reason

:56:09.:56:12.

whatsoever that's one thing. If they have been incarcerated because in

:56:13.:56:15.

the end it's been prove than they are a criminal, that's different.

:56:16.:56:18.

When people were finally released from Guantanamo, clearly as a

:56:19.:56:21.

Government, people wanted to look at what the right form of settlement

:56:22.:56:26.

was for people that had been held there effectively unlawfully. I

:56:27.:56:31.

don't know in the end, I don't think anybody really knows what

:56:32.:56:33.

conversation this man was paid or not paid as part of that. Why don't

:56:34.:56:46.

you know and shouldn't you know? There is intelligence and we should

:56:47.:56:50.

respect that. There was no merit in paying him a penny because he was

:56:51.:56:55.

plainly a terrorist, it was said. Do you agree? I agree with the comments

:56:56.:57:00.

made earlier that people will be upset and angered that somebody was

:57:01.:57:05.

given what was considered to be a huge payout, then went off and was

:57:06.:57:09.

able to go abroad and commit terrorism abroad. There's some

:57:10.:57:12.

unanswered questions by that. We have got to be absolutely clear that

:57:13.:57:17.

some of the issues around that were people being unlawfully detained

:57:18.:57:21.

without charge and potentially subject to torture. We can't do that

:57:22.:57:27.

and in fact if we do do things like that, we actually do radicalise

:57:28.:57:30.

people and it's counterproductive. So we've got to make sure that we

:57:31.:57:35.

uphold British laws. OK. You, Sir? One brief comment. Not you, I wanted

:57:36.:57:47.

the man in the second row from the back, let's hear you, please? It

:57:48.:57:54.

makes me absolutely sick to my stomach that British Government

:57:55.:58:00.

releases terrorists yet members of the Armed Forces and veterans are

:58:01.:58:06.

hounded on a state-sponsored witch-hunt. It makes me absolutely

:58:07.:58:10.

sick to my stomach. Breakfast- All right. Thank you.

:58:11.:58:15.

Just before we end, Robert Moss, your question. Nobody is going to be

:58:16.:58:30.

allowed answer it but let's hear it. It's a nice question. Who ate all

:58:31.:58:35.

the pies? Has football lost its sense of humour. Our time is up. We

:58:36.:58:39.

are going to be in Bedford next week, we have Liz Truss and the

:58:40.:58:44.

guitarist from Bombay bicycle club who campaigns to involve young

:58:45.:58:48.

people in politics on the panel. The weekend after that, we are in

:58:49.:58:51.

Sunderland. Bedford or Sunderland, go to the website. The address is

:58:52.:58:57.

there. Five Live carries on this debate on Question Time extra time,

:58:58.:59:01.

but my great thanks to the panel and all of you who came to

:59:02.:59:04.

Stoke-on-Trent tonight where the by-election result will actually be

:59:05.:59:08.

announced in the early hours, as will Copeland. I hope you will stay

:59:09.:59:12.

up for that if you are interested in that. Until next Thursday, good

:59:13.:59:14.

night. A 24-year-old man

:59:15.:59:42.

has been charged with murder. Huntley's definitely

:59:43.:59:46.

hiding something. Only interested in one thing

:59:47.:59:48.

and that's bent coppers. You want to make

:59:49.:59:58.

some sort of a deal?

:59:59.:00:01.

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