16/03/2017 Question Time


David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Bognor Regis. The panellists are Jacob Rees-Mogg, Angela Eagle, Joanna Cherry, Tim Martin and Matthew Parris.

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We're in the Skyline Pavilion at Butlins,


Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.


The Labour MP, who last year resigned from the Shadow Cabinet


to briefly challenge Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of


Joanna Cherry, who speaks for the SNP on Justice and Home Affairs.


The Times and Spectator columnist, Matthew Parris.


And the chairman of Wetherspoon, the pub chain, Tim Martin.


You can join the debate on Facebook, Twitter or text 83981.


If you push the red button, you can see the text going across the bottom


of the screen. Our first question from Florence Holland-Norris,


please. Theresa May said now is not the time for a Scottish independence


referendum. When is the time? Theresa May is said now is not the


time. When is the time, Jacob Rees-Mogg? I strongly believe the


people of Scotland have the right, as all nations do, to


self-determination. That they, if they want to be a separate country,


have a right to do that. I am sure the people of Scotland could be a


successful nation as they were before 1707. However, now is not the


time because we are in the midst of the Brexit negotiations, which are


about to begin, and there is a two-year period those will go on


for, and Scotland would not know what it was leaving to until those


are completed. Secondly, there was a referendum in 2014 which the


Scottish National Party said would be for a generation. I assume that


generations in Scotland are much the same as in England and three years


is a pretty short generation. APPLAUSE


Florence's question was, when is the time?


I am happy to accept the generational aspect of the call by


the Scottish National Party. That is perfectly reasonable. I do not think


you can bind future generations. So 20 years? This is a political


discussion. That is why we are having it! It is that, rather than


being dressed up as a matter of great principle. It is a political


discussion between Mrs Sturgeon who is a highly capable politician, who


is trying to pick the moment when she thinks she will have the


greatest chance of winning, which is completely understandable. She


thinks with the uncertainty there may be in the midst of the Brexit


negotiations, that will be the opportunity. From the point of view


of Mrs May, it is the counter to that, that this is an unfair choice


to offer to the people of Scotland at a point when they do not know


whether they might get a very good deal within a Brexit situation. But


what is going to happen to fishing and farming rights, that may well,


if the current devolution system remains, go to Scotland? Under the


current acts of Parliament, anything not reserved to Westminster goes to


Edinburgh. That has not been settled, whether the things at


brussels comeback. One final thing. It has always struck me as very awed


that people who want independence from Westminster want immediately to


come under the yoke of Brussels, and they have become the Brussels


National party, rather than the Scottish National Party.


APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, Theresa May has said


that now is not the time. We heard are saying that today. When


is the time? I am going to agree with Theresa May that now is not the


time. If she had listened to what the First Minister said on Monday,


she announced that she intends to hold a referendum in 18 months'


time, approximately, because we know, of course, because Michel


Barnier has told us and David Davis that within 18 months of triggering


Article 50, an agreement will have to be reached, so there will be a


six-month window of opportunity for the European Parliament and other


parliaments to vote on whatever deal is reached. It is true we had an


independence referendum in September 2000 and four. But the point is that


circumstances have changed completely since then. -- 2014. Back


then, we were told the way to guarantee citizenship in the EU was


to vote to remain part of the UK. I realise that this part of England,


and England and Wales as a whole, voted to leave the European Union,


and I respect that. But Scotland voted to remain part of the European


Union, and we currently face being taken out of the EU against our


will. If there is one thing we learned this week it is that it is


generally a good idea to keep your manifesto promises. And Nicola


Sturgeon made a manifesto promise to the Scottish people in the Scottish


general election last year, that the Scottish Parliament would hold


another referendum if there was a material change in circumstances,


such as Scotland being taken out of the European Union against its will.


That material change of circumstances has occurred. On the


back of that manifesto, Nicola Sturgeon 146.5% of the vote in


Scotland, the highest share of vote for a government across the UK since


1966. -- 46.5%. Even Labour in 97 did not get that much. So Nicola


Sturgeon has a mandate on the back of a manifesto commitment to hold


this referendum. Would you agree it is sensible to wait until the Brexit


negotiations are finished, so the people of Scotland can see what is


on offer before they have a second referendum on whether to remain in


the UK or not? You will not be surprised that I agree with what the


First Minister said. Do you think Brexit should be finished? The


Scottish people need to make an informed choice. Wait until after


the negotiation? 18 months after Article 50 has been triggered, as we


were told by the chief negotiator for the European Union and


importantly by David Davies, who told us this yesterday at the Brexit


select committee on which I sit, that he agrees with Michel Barnier


that an agreement will have to be reached within 18 months of Article


50 being triggered. The reason is there is a two-year period and you


need a six-month window for the European Parliament and other member


states to ratify the agreement. So when I think it should be, I think


it should be after that degree of certainty has been reached, when we


see the deal that has been negotiated, and when other European


Union countries are getting a chance to say whether they like the deal or


not, Scotland should get a chance to say whether Scotland wants to take


that deal or be an independent country. Thank you. The man there.


You said that Nicola Sturgeon said that if there had been a material


change in circumstances they would hold a second referendum, that being


being dragged out of the EU. But if I am not mistaken, if you leave the


UK, Scotland are not automatically in the EU, so you would be coming


out anyway if you leave the UK, so that is contradictory to what she is


saying is the justification for having a new referendum. Don't


answer for a moment, we will come back to it. The woman in the third


row. When you say that the Scottish people voted on the independence


referendum in 2014, that they thought they were voting to stay in


the EU, they already knew we were going to have a referendum on the


UK's membership of the EU, and they voted to remain as part of the UK.


APPLAUSE Forgive me, I will come to you but I


don't want the whole debate to be dominated by your position.


I would like a chance to answer. If you remember them, we can come back


to them. Angela Eagle. I think we are divided enough at the moment and


this is an opportunistic thing that Nicola Sturgeon has done.


APPLAUSE I think the politics of grievance


are not going to help us come together and try to make the best


deal in the Brexit negotiations for all of the countries of the United


Kingdom, and all of the regions of the United Kingdom, to.


I think it's important as well to recognise that we need to work


together in these crucial next two years, and to launch this second


lead after only three years, to have an independence referendum, I think


is mischievous, to say the least. APPLAUSE


What do you expect Nicola Sturgeon to do?


She says there is no contact between her and Theresa May, she is not


being included in these things. What do you expect to do, sit it out and


wait while negotiations go on? I think Theresa May needs to be more


inclusive in the way she conducts Brexit negotiations, both with


Parliament, which she initially tried to exclude, and also with


Wales and Scotland. And I would like to see a special committee of the


regions setup, socially could involve them, too. I think she would


have a much more powerful and stronger argument to do a better


deal if she was much more inclusive. I think when you think about it as a


social Democrat, we want solidarity and working together. We don't want,


and don't think that our country's future is best made by dividing us


up and separating off one piece from another. Are you in favour of Jeremy


Corbyn said he was in favour of, which was that he was fine with a


second referendum? The Labour Party's position, and Jeremy has


clarified this, is that we are against a second referendum. The MSP


is in Scotland, Labour MSP is, will be voting against during the debate


at Holyrood next week. We think that the SNP should get on with doing the


day job and actually governed Scotland in the interests of


everybody. We are doing that, Angela, we are doing that. As well,


I don't understand why the SNP want to stay in the single market in


Europe, which many of us wanted to stay in, but think it is OK, in


order to achieve that, to leave the even bigger single market which is


the UK. We want to stay in both. Do you know if the Scottish people have


the appetite for a second referendum so soon? What is your view? I don't


think they should. Matthew Parris. I don't think Nicola Sturgeon actually


wants a second referendum before Brexit. I think she wants to call


for it before Brexit and she knows she can rely on Mrs May to refuse to


have one, so it suits both of them in lots of ways. But I do think that


if in a sustained way the Scottish people want a second bite at this


cherry, I think they should be allowed to have it. Circumstances


have changed. APPLAUSE


And here I agree with Joanna Cherry. Circumstances have changed since the


last referendum in Scotland. It's a completely different United Kingdom


that Scotland is now in. If the Scottish people want to take another


look at that after we have left, then I don't think any government


should deny that to them for very long. I must say to Jacob that for


those who wanted to insist that the will of the people as to whether we


should stay in the European Union or not should be consulted and should


prevail, then to deny that same privilege to the people of Scotland


seems to me perverse. This is a question of timing. I wouldn't begin


to deny the right of the Scottish people to have another referendum at


some point. Jacob, when you and people in the audience were having


their referendum on whether or not to stay part of the European Union,


how would you have felt if Brussels said it is up to Brussels whether


you have it or not, and it is up to Brussels when you have it? That is


what we are being told, it is up to Westminster whether or not you can


have it and when you have it. If anything is going to destroy the


union between Scotland and England, then that sort of attitude is going


to do it. But you want the union destroyed, don't you? Hang on. Are


you in favour... I don't want to destroy it, I want to create a new


partnership of equals. All right, you want to break it. I would like


to answer the audience. Coming out of the EU, would Scotland still be


in the European Union, we are completely in uncharted territory,


but at the moment Scotland is part of a member state. No other EU


member state has said it would veto an independent Scotland's


membership, and the current President... The Spanish have not


said that. You can check. Go home and Google. The Spanish government


have not said they would veto. Some voices in Spain are concerned about


Scottish independence because they think it might set a precedent for


Catalonia. But Esteban Pons, a member and a leading MEP pointed out


that the situation of Scotland as an independent ancient nation which


voluntarily entered into a union with another nation, England, is


completely different from breaking Catalonia away from the rest of


Spain. I will give you plenty of time later. Tim Martin has not yet


spoken and we have had court of an hour. On a practical level, it is


definitely right, as everyone seems to be agreed, that there should be


another referendum in future in these particular circumstances. On a


practical level also, it's very unreasonable to think that while we


are organising the business of getting out of the EU, organising


trade deals and so on, that at the same time but before you actually


leave there is a massive political issue which is a referendum. If


there is going to be one should be after Brexit has occurred and you


also enough time to deal with it. The second row from the back. If in


the next referendum that Scotland have they voted to leave, that would


be great because it is democracy in action. I don't understand why


Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are so in favour of being part of the


European Union. You can't be part of the European Union and be


independent. All I seem to hear from the SNP


is about the English Government and the Scottish Parliament,


why then have they got 50 something MPs in the United Kingdom Parliament


because that's what it is. Shirley Scott, can we just


have your question? Is the will of the 52% worth more


than keeping a United Kingdom? In other words, is Brexit a price


worth paying if it breaks I very much want to keep


the United Kingdom, I think that we I think that for family ties,


for historic ties, it's in England's interest that the Union remains


and that it's also in I think it's important to us and,


when you think of what your country is, I think my country


is the United Kingdom, I would be very sad to see


that destroyed and it's worth bearing in mind,


that not far off 40% of people in Scotland voted to leave and that


you see in opinion polls that quite a lot of people who voted


to leave do not want, even if they supported independence


in 2014, to end up in a Scotland So things have changed a great deal


because of both referendums. I'm afraid, it's a price I don't


want to pay and I don't think I think we can both


have a United Kingdom and leave the European Union


and that is the best Joanna Cherry, do you


think that's possible? What Jacob just said, we can have


a United Kingdom and leave the EU? Well, the difficulty is that


Theresa May has been completely intransigent at looking at any


of the compromise proposals the Scottish Government have put


forward in the light To answer the lady in the audience's


question a moment ago, the reason why we have 59 Scottish


MPs, 56 of whom are SNP, at Westminster is because Scottish


Parliament's is devolved and only has powers over certain things -


defence, foreign affairs, macro-economic policy,


immigration are all at Westminster. So that's why we presently have


Scottish MPs at Westminster. Indeed, I'm proud to represent


the people of Edinburgh South But I don't think it will be


possible to preserve the UK because Now, three months ago,


the Scottish Government put forward a set of compromise proposals


whereby Scotland would remain part of the United Kingdom,


but also part of the single market and Theresa May has


refused to discuss those proposals and yesterday,


when I was questioning David Davis, he ridiculed me when I suggested


that it would be at least courtsey for the Government in London


to respond to the Government In the last independence referendum,


we were told in Scotland that we are an equal partner in this


union, it doesn't feel like equality when your views


are completely overlooked. We were asked not to leave the UK,


but to stay and lead It doesn't look like we're leading


the United Kingdom when we're It's not the politics of grievance,


Angela, it's the politics We're simply asking


for our voice to be heard. I just want to make one


further point, David, because the people in the audience


are raising points. No, I have to keep stopping you,


only because there are four other people on the panel and a number


of people in the audience. I know you have a lot


you would like to say and I can't just allow you to take the programme


over with what you're saying, Very happy not to take


the programme over, but I would like the opportunity


to answer specific points. I'm sure the audience would


like their points to be answered. It strikes me we're spending


an awful lot of time talking about, should Scotland


have another referendum. I agree, it's the Scottish people's


rights to have that. Right now, we are getting


ready to leave the EU and it's far more important,


I feel, and surely you must agree, that Scotland and Wales and England


all work together so that we get what we want when we leave the EU


and then afterwards devote the time to Scotland and then do you then


want to have a referendum? What currency are you going to use


if you get your referendum What currency have you


got, the groat is it, It's perhaps worthwhile reminding


ourselves that viewers in Scotland are watching this programme tonight


and we, perhaps, shouldn't ridicule them in the same way that I wouldn't


wish to ridicule people Unlike the British Government,


when we hold our next referendum in Scotland,


we will have a detailed plan and we will set out plan about how


we propose to secure Scotland's We will set out our plan on how


we propose to secure a rosy economic future for Scotland and we will set


out our plan on the currency then and we're working


on that at the moment. Right.


on this programme tonight, You did say you wouldn't


be tied to the pound, We probably wouldn't


want to be tied to the pound? No, I said the pound might be


a little bit less attractive if it was plummeting after Brexit,


as it is now. We do have one of the worst


performing currencies But I take no pleasure


in that because the pound is important to the whole


of the United Kingdom. I think there were two things


in the Scottish referendum which were unhelpful


in the overall debate. One was that Scotland would go


to hell in a handcart There are countries


the size of Scotland - the Republic of Ireland,


New Zealand, Singapore - similar economies which have


done extremely well. But the other point that no-one


grasped the nettle in respect of - if you want your own country


and your own Government, you have to have your own currency,


a currency and a government sides of the same coin


and so I think that that is a nettle that wasn't grasped at the time


by the SNP Time. We've also seen the problems


in Greece, in Portugal, etc and in Europe, as a result


of trying to have a European currency with no


government behind it. We've had a lot of questions


about the Scottish referendum, We've also had a lot


of questions about Brexit itself I'd like to take this


question from Sue Bringloe, please, which is looking


at the Brexit negotiations. In light of David Davis's admission


that no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects of a hard


Brexit, should the triggering This was before the committee,


Joanna Cherry, that So, since he doesn't


have any idea what might happen if it doesn't work,


should he delay until he has worked Well, it was an astonishing


admission at the Select Committee this week, from the Secretary


of State for Exiting the European Union, that he's done


absolutely no analytical work on the costs of the fallback


position - which is exiting the European Union without any kind


of deal - that they haven't done any work to see what that would actually


cost and what the implications And yet, we have a Prime Minister


who's gone round the country saying - no deal is better than a bad deal,


but they haven't actually It seems that David Davis comes


from the Boris Johnson school Don't do any of it and hope you can


bluff your way through. Then following the Budget


and this screeching, embarrassing U-turn on national


insurance contributions that the Chancellor has put


us through this week, are we going to let these


people do the Brexit negotiations which are far,


far more difficult than budget, a simple Budget, with 28 things


in it, and he gets that wrong. So, I'm seriously worried now


about how this is going. I actually think -


...needed to stand up and say something then,


on a Wednesday. He stands there and


everyone turns off. You've got mobile phones,


you've got everything. You're saying there -


stand up to Theresa May. You've got your own leader,


and he doesn't do anything. I know you don't like him,


but you're going to Well, I don't think anyone


can accuse me of not But the important thing, I think,


for our Prime Minister is that she doesn't try to do this


in the way she's begun by doing it. She's got to bring


the nation together, She's got to take us forward


and she has to do that by actually including everybody,


not this high-handed - leave it to us, we don't want


to talk to you about it attitude. I think, as a country,


we will then have a much better I'm deeply worried about


how they've started. Let me remind just you of


Sue's question, Jacob. In the light of David Davis's


admission no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects


of a hard Brexit, should I'm so pleased that


Mr Davis said this. Think back to the referendum


campaign, the Bank of England, the OECD, the IMF all told us


we were ruined. We were going to have a punishment


Budget within days of daring to vote All these clever economists got


the whole thing completely wrong. What we don't want to do is to think


that we can model economically what may happen with any degree


of precision in two years' time, depending on factors


that are uncertain. We can't do that and it is a false


position to put yourself in, What you want to do is to look


at the general picture How do we trade with 60%


of the world already? Would we need to apply tariffs


on goods coming into this country That would be a voluntary


choice for us, there So you can make an intelligent


Judgment without getting in all these people who got it


so hopeless wrong only a year ago and I think it's worth


learning from experience. ..are you talking about accepting


10% tariffs for our car industry, which would put the automotive


industry at a huge disadvantage? And, between 30% and 40%


tariffs which the WTO has On those two points,


we've already had a bigger depreciation in the pound


than in the tariff that would apply to cars


and on agriculture we are only 55% So that if those tariffs


were imposed on British beef, for example, and we opposed 70%


tariffs, because they're 70% on beef, on Irish beef,


that would be fantastic I'm not saying we should do this,


but we would be in a very strong position to retaliate if vicious


tariffs were imposed on us. We have a huge trade deficit


with the European Union. The person in the spectacles there,


in the middle, yes. Surely the panel would accept,


maybe bar the two socialist, that free enterprise and unilateral


free trade, as proven throughout the Victorian era and indeed


with the great man Robert Peel, is extremely effective and British


business and free enterprise will always overcome trade barriers


put up by other countries and that specialisation


is the key to success? Well, I'm afraid, I have to agree


with Jacob Rees-Mogg. It is absolutely impossible to do


any kind of assessment of what might happen to us if we crash out


of the European Union And it breaks my heart,


Jacob, that you and your friends are taking us


down this road. So you think the outcome is going


to be falling off the cliff? We may get a very hard Brexit,


we may get a crashing out It's perfectly clear I think,


to almost everybody who travels on the continent, that our European


partners are not going I negotiate a lot of trading


agreements over the years and the one thing, as I think some


people have said here, Jacob said, is you can't guarantee the outcome


in advance and there are so many variables it may not


be worthwhile trying. I think our best approach


with the EU is to tay - we're happy to do a free trade deal


with you or we'll trade under World Trade Organisation


rules, its's up to you. It's under those circumstances


we'll get the best deal. If everyone says, we're desperate


for a free trade deal, But if we don't impose any tariffs -


at the moment the EU is not a free trading organisation,


for 7% of the world it's free trade, for the other 93%


there are huge tariffs. We can drop the prices that people


pay in the shops, in Bognor Regis, by 7% or 8% from the end


of the Brexit negotiations if just don't charge any tariffs


for third party countries. The woman up there. It might sound a


bit simple and it seems obvious to me that surely a lot of these


conversations and decisions should have been spoken about and made


before we were given the choice to vote.


APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, do you agree?


I wholeheartedly agree with you, madam. Yesterday's performance by


David Davies, bit for the EU select committee was quite extraordinary,


and all credit to the chair of the existing EU select committee,


Hillary Benn, and also -- and also, Angela's colleague, or putting David


Davies on the spot. Not only did he tell us he had made no economic


assessment of the effect of crashing out of the EU with no deal, but he


also went on to say that yes, if we fell back and relied on WTO rules,


30-40% would be slapped on British agricultural exports, 10% on car


exports. He went on to say that yes, he had not really thought about it


but now that it was put to him, yes, we would all lose our health


insurance when travelling abroad. He also said yes, the financial


services sector which is so important to London and Edinburgh,


which I represent, will lose its passport in rights. He also agreed


with Hillary Benn that we would fall out of the EU United States open


skies agreement which would make airfares more expensive. I respect


the fact that the people of England and Wales voted to leave the


European Union but I am sure the people of England and Wales did not


vote to make their country poorer and did not vote to make their


country have less free trade. It might surprise you to hear this, as


a Scottish Nationalists I'm a fan of English wine. You have some great


wine in this area of West Sussex. If you crash out with no deal, 32%


tariffs for export of that wine will be slapped on. These are the things


that David Davis now admits to be the case but were not discussed


before the referendum. Like the lady who asked the question, I am worried


that we seem to be proceeding... I have two stop you again, I am sorry.


Thank you. Given the incredible uncertainty with regards to leaving


the European Union, does it not make sense to have a second referendum


when the final deal is known. Well, secondary friend is being all the


rage, why not? I certainly think, and I voted in the House of Commons


for a meaningful vote at least in the House of Commons, a proper


debate about the kind of deal the government come back with. I think


that is right. Whether that be just a vote in the House of Commons after


a debate, or a second referendum, you can make an announcement for


either. Do you mean a House of Commons vote of the kind that could


remove certain parts of the agreement, or one which is just take


it or leave it? We wanted a meaningful vote which by definition


does not mean absence choice. You have the whole agreement, or


absolutely nothing. We would want there to be a vote when we could


send the government back to the negotiating table. We can argue


until the cows come home about whether there should be this or that


vote in parliament and at what point there should be a vote. It will all


depend on how public opinion approaches the emerging terms of the


deal that we are going to get. And if the public turn against what


looks like the kind of deal that we are going to turn against, believe


me, Parliament will get a vote, Parliament will demand a vote. MPs


are pretty pusillanimous people. They tend to put their fingers up to


the wind and see which way public opinion is growing. Isn't that their


job? It is. If public opinion is blowing against this deal there will


be a vote in parliament and the government will not be able to


ignore it. The people have spoken and have declared that two plus two


equals five. Jacob Rees-Mogg. Matthew Parris says if public


opinion starts to turn against what is negotiated, Parliament will


change its mind. Do you agree? I take a completely different role for


members of Parliament. We are there to stand up for what we believe in,


put it to the electorate, and if they wanted, they will vote for us.


I do not think it is about being a weather vane of the latest opinion


poll which is probably wrong anyway. Parliament will have lots of votes


but the British people voted in a referendum to leave. That decision


needs to be implemented. What happens after we leave is going to


be open to endless negotiation and votes, but the fundamental point is


that that referendum was authoritative.


APPLAUSE Doesn't this exactly show us that


referendums with a yes or no decision are so difficult to bring


to the general public? I think this is exactly the reason


why the Scottish referendum has got to be a further generation, because


I don't genuinely believe we are in a position to know the full facts.


There are so many different questions and we are not being told


exactly what those things are. Well, we know we are not getting ?350


million a week for the NHS. As Jacob says, he prefers the net figure. We


have a lot of Hamza and we have other questions. Instead of asking


questions of the panel, if I could hear your opinions. The woman up


there. What is your view? I just wondered if the MPs got to debate


it, if they would vote with their conscience, or vote as they were


told. It was your question, wasn't it? What is your view? We are


stronger together. The MPs are not representing us very well. They are


doing what they are told by the whips, not what they believe in. The


man in red on the gangway. This is probably a moot point, as if Marine


Le Pen wins in May, she has said she will come out of the euro, which is


the cement of the European Union and it will come crashing down. In the


front row. I think as the Americans are saying that the war is too


dangerous to be left to the generals, what we heard today from


Jacob is so frightening that perhaps Brexit is too dangerous to be left


to the Conservatives, because it is the generation of our children and


their children. It is becoming ideological and not what is going to


happen in the negotiation. I'm sorry to disagree but I think it is a huge


economic opportunity for us that, as Tim pointed out, the EU is free


trade for 7% of the world. 93% is kept out by tariff barriers. We want


to be trading with the whole world, not focusing on a narrow Europeans


fear. That is a generational choice. We already do half of our trade with


our nearest neighbours, democracies in the European Union. That is


because of the tariffs. We can trade with the rest of the world, too. We


have enormous tariffs on the rest of the world. 32% on the wine in Tim


Bosz 's, 17% on beef. We keep out of the rest of the world and make goods


more expensive British consumers. I have heard a lot from the panel


about England and Scotland. The UK includes two other countries. Where


is their voice tonight? What is your view? We are stronger together. As


an English man, I would like to have a vote as to whether or not I want


Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom.


APPLAUSE The woman at the back.


I think we have a lesson to learn about intersection, which is that


when we are talking about racism, white people should be quiet. When


we are talking about sexism, men should be quiet. And when we are


talking about Scottish independence, English people should be quiet. On


that note, I am going to move on. We will have more debate on this. We


are going to be in Wales next week. We're in Bangor next week and then


on Monday 27th March at 8.30pm we've a special Question Time


from Birmingham - What happens once


Article 50 is triggered? And Question Time from


Carlisle is on March 30th. I will announce all of that at the


end, which will make you fall asleep, but the details are on


screen of how to apply. Let's go onto a different point. Isabella


Spooner. Should Philip Hammond resign? A nice, straightforward


question. Should Philip Hammond resign after a Budget that lasted a


week. Angela Eagle. Well, he has been put in a pretty humiliating


position. We have had this huge, screeching U-turn on one of the main


points of what was meant to be a very simple budget. He was meant to


be a safe pair of hands and has fluffed his Budget. And the more


astonishing thing was how it emerged that he had not realised he was


breaking a manifesto commitment. Now, I read the Tory manifesto but


apparently he didn't. You did not leap up and down immediately, it was


Laura Kuenssberg at the BBC who spotted it according to Hammond.


That is absolutely true, he was told by a BBC journalist that he had


broken his manifesto commitment. He had not discussed any of this with


colleagues. The Cabinet had not noticed. And we are putting these


people in charge of Brexit negotiations. Was the policy right?


Well, the interesting thing about the policy and the problem with the


way he has botched it, we have a huge issue in the future with the


idea that people can be made to be apparently self-employed and opt out


for a minor tax advantage of their employment rights. Many people are


told they have to be self-employed before they are given work, which


means they cannot get access to sick pay, to holiday pay, to maternity or


paternity pay. This is affecting our tax base, so he was right, in my


view, to look at this whole area. But because he introduced the tax


before talking about the benefits, and botched the reform, he has been


dragged to the House of Commons by his own side and basically announced


that even though there is billions of pounds of tax revenue at risk,


that he can't do anything about it for the rest of the parliament. I


think his credibility is going south.


In business we frequently get things wrong. In fact, almost every day and


if we had someone like Theresa May around to give us a good telling off


we would change our mind more quickly. We always say within


Wetherspoon it's fine to zig-zag to a good conclusion. There is nothing


wrong with making a mistake, you have to own up and then get on with




A woman is shouting at you. It's OK to make a mistake even if you are


the Chancellor? Surely this is an example of incompetence? No.


Chancellor's make mistakes all the time. The amaze thing about


democracy is that it works. We have all these debates. We have debates


in Parliament. Angela gets on the case, so does Jacob and that's why


it's such a great system. The problem with the European system is


that there are five unelected presidents. You can't deselect


President Juncker. Great to have our democracy when we can point out


Philip Hammond's mistakes. He's lost trust in the public. I think it's


unacceptable Philip Hammond should have been humiliated in this way. By


the Prime Minister snoochl by the Prime Minister. He must have


considered Respublica Iing nation in the last couple of days. She must


also take ownership for what was in the Budget statement. She saw it,


presumably the Cabinet discussed it. How it has been allowed to arise the


impression that it was all Philip Hammond and nobody else seems to me


wrong. I think any Prime Minister who hue mulliataways her Prime


Minister in the way this happened will find that revenge may well be


served, as it was on Margaret Thatcher, cold in the future. He is


a grown up guy he can take a chuff around the cheeks from the Prime


Minister. For the Chancellor to resign at the moment, at this chit


critical moment when we are about to trigger Article 50 would be against


the national interest. He will be hurting and smarting. I'm surprised


he would be that sensitive. He will have his revenge. Politicians are


sensitive. Are they? Yes. You insisted this measure be blocked. I


presume you were one of them? I said so in the Budget debate, that


followed the Chancellor's Budget, I think that you need to look


at the whole issue of national insurance and disguised


self-employment in a proper way and have a fundamental


reform of national contributory insurance, it's


basically an income tax and look at What about the point


that Matthew made? I'm about to come


to Mr Parris' point. I do not think, as the lady


asked, that Mr Hammond I actually think there


is an enormous wisdom in being able to admit that


you have made a mistake All of us, in our daily lives,


make mistakes and we all know that it is better to correct that


mistake and reverse it quickly rather than waiting


and having to reverse anyway. The lady who asks about


the Chancellor - shouldn't the Well, somebody said


of Elizabeth I, a man called Wentworth, he said -


none is without fault, no


not our gracious Queen. For his pains, he got sent


to the Tower of London. We all make mistakes


whether we are the Prime Minister or the Chancellor -


I'll exclude Her Majesty from this - but we all make mistakes


and we are best off if we reverse Cannot just hear the pleasure oozing


from Jacob Rees-Mogg as he patronises Philip Hammond


and says that we all make mistakes. The fact is, the leavers don't


like Philip Hammond. They don't think he's a sufficiently


hard lever and they are enjoying the humiliation


of the Chancellor. I'm so sorry, this is a wrong


obsession with Europe that I used to be accused of when I was


a eurosceptic before we had the vote This had nothing what ver to do


with Brexit or anything like that. It seemed to me a bad tax move


and one that was not Why wasn't it spotted then


if it the climb down commitment that will he didn't


want to break, why did nobody, the Prime Minister,


the Cabinet, you... I think the error was that they


thought that the Bill that had made it impossible to change national


insurance covered the manifesto I think they looked at a more recent


document rather than the original document


and that's a perfectly... The 1922 Committee were told that


willed there would be no reversal of this when they were complaining


about it last week. There were Conservative


ministers, on the TV, There are a lot of people


who won't forget this huge mess. But that's deeply


unrealistic and I hope that, when the time comes


and I'm in opposition, Everybody knows that a policy


reversal cannot be half admitted. You can't say - well, we might


reverse it tomorrow or we might not. You have to wait until the point


the reversal is announced. Of course we all make mistakes,


but this was a colossal mistake. It was the centrepieces


of his Budget. And now that he's had


to do the screeching U-turn on it, there's


a He didn't mention


Brexit at all in his Budget, which most of us found quite


surprising and concerning. But this is the man


who's going to be in charge of the United Kingdom's


finances as we go through the Brexit process, and he made


a colossal mistake in his Budget. He seems to have completely


forgotten about a manifesto promise. What happened here was,


that the Tories rebelled Now, I'm sat between two Tories


tonight and they'll know better than I do that Tory rebellions normally


tend to be a bit slow burn, but this You could tell from


the faces sitting behind the Chancellor as he announced this


that people weren't happy about it This change would have had


a major impact on small I'm sure there are many


of you sitting in the audience tonight who would have


been impacted by this. At the very least,


if you are going to make such a huge change in policy, you should carry


out some consultation with business Clearly, this was a smart idea that


was thought up to balance the books


in ignorance of a manifesto commitment that's had


to Yes, in normal times,


to answer Isabelle's question, in normal times one


would think that this was a resignation matter but,


unfortunately, we're not I don't think the public


agree with that. I think the public


think this was OK, It's about the ego, according


to Matthew and really and the sensitivity of politician,


we don't go for this. I'm sorry, we have only


got five or six minutes Are we asking the


impossible from the NHS Are we asking the impossible from


the NHS to deliver with the money it has? Well, yes. You have to be


swift, I'm afraid on this. I think so. There is going to be a real


terms cut in the next two, three years in NHS budgets. NHS staff, who


keep the whole thing going, haven't had a pay rise of any amount for


years. The huge cuts to social care, which have happened since 2010,


nearly ?5 billion worth of cuts to social care, have actually put


enormous extra pressure on the NHS. Of the other week I did a shift with


the paramedics in my local area, and they are constantly on the go. As


soon as they deliver patients into A and clean the ambulance and get


ready to go again, and say they are available, they are called. It's


massive, increasing pressure. We have to realise that we've got to


fund our NHS properly. We have got to ensure we fund social care


properly and ensure those areas work together more otherwise we will lose


our NHS in the next few years. Right.


APPLAUSE Tim Martin. I'm worried the NHS is a


sacred car if you have a car firm or agriculture country people compare


it with other countries and firms in the world. We have to start saying -


how does it work in France, Germany, Australia? I think they have better


systems than us. They spend a lot more money than us. They do. We


can't go on like this. It doesn't work any more. No-one wants to say


that. The woman up there on the back there. Hello. It's the most


efficient health in the world. It's not - Cheapest. It's not a car firm,


it is keeps us all going. It's vial vitally important to this country.


It's not the same as another industry. It's being treated as


another industry. It's being under-funded. Personally - Sold off.


Exactly. We need to protect it. We know what is happening to it. Is it


impossible to deliver? The money for the NHS goes up year in year out. It


was ringfenced in the age of austerity. It's getting another ?10


billion before the end of the Parliament. I don't think endlessly


providing more money is ultimately going to be the answer. There are


enormous strains. The ageing population, one million more people


over the age of 75 since 2010. In seven years. Why are we cutting


social care? Social care is also getting more money. The Labour Party


always thinks it's about money. It's not. It's going to be about


delivery. We will have to think seriously how we deliver health and


social social care in this country. We have to be open to reform. I


don't know what that. Is I don't have a policy prescription, but I


think we need a national conversation about how we are going


to develop this because there isn't endless money. There isn't a money


tree that is going to pour billions in. It has been protected in a time


of austerity, but there are always demands for more. An ageing


population, better types of medicine, on it goes. We need a


serious conversation about how we are going to deal with this. Would


you like to see or examine the possibility of a tax specifically


for the NHS? No, absolutely not. They are a great mistaking they lead


to the wrong amount of money, too much or too little. Too much gets


pinched and the two little has to be topped up. Governments cheat on


those taxes. I'd like to ask what the Government is going to do to


provide more GPs? I work in a GP surgery and over the last three


years we've struggled to even get locoms to come in because of the


amount of paperwork that the Government put in place. So there is


actually less time for patient care and then the Government say - we


need doctors for 24-hours a day, we should make them work longer. They


work hard. They work long. Is it money or the administration that's


in the way? Both. You need both. We are asking the impossible from the


NHS. We have always asked the impossible from the NHS. The NHS has


always struggled, always wanted more money, politicians have never been


able to give it as much money as they want. The result is that we


have a good second rate health service in Britain for the cost of


what would in any other country be a fourth rate health service. We get


very good value out of the NHS. APPLAUSE


But it's under strain. It's fraying. We must find new sources of of


revenue. Just to cut to the quick, I think people like me ought to have


to pay something towards our healthcare because I can afford to.


APPLAUSE Joanna. Yes, the Tories are asking


the impossible of the NHS in England and Wales because they under fund


it. Health sl devolved in Scotland. We have pumped record funding into


the NHS in Scotland. We have the best A waiting times in the United


Kingdom. We have more staff per head than the NHS in England and Wales


and you see no junior doctors striking in our NHS. What are the


outcomes? The Tory Government should take a leaf out of the Scottish


Government's book and fund the NHS in England and Wales properly. What


are the outcomes? What is your point, Matthew? What are the


outcomes in health in Scotland? Health in Scotland is improving,


Matthew. Health in Scotland is improving. For example, ladies and


gentlemen, prescriptions in Scotland are free. Vulnerable, disabled or


elderly people get their prescriptions for free. What are the


outcomes. You sir, your hand has been up all evening. Yes. Brief


point we have to end. I think the NHS is one of the most fundamentally


important things about the UK. I think it's far more important than


Brexit. It's far more important than anything. People should have more


say into what the NHS delivers and how it is run. I think it's far more


important. Most people here would probably agree. Everyone here has


and is going to use it. Way more people.


APPLAUSE Thank you. All right. Thank you very


much indeed. We have stop there because our time is up. Apologies to


the many hands in the air if you can apologise to a hand.


Our time is up. We are going to be in Bangor next week. On Monday, 27th


March we have this special one-and-a-half hour programme on


Britain after Brexit. It's coming from Birmingham. 8. 30pm on BBC One.


We don't know whether Article 50 will have been triggered on that


Monday or the day after. That is the context of it. A normal, no such


thing as a standard Question Time, a normal or a regular Question Time in


Carlisle on the 30th March. So if you can come to any of those


programmes you will be very, very welcome. That is Bangor on the 23rd,


Birmingham on the 27, Carlisle on the 30th. You can apply on the


website. It's on the screen. Or call O330 123 99 88. This debate will go


on Radio 5Live on Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to my panel


and all of you who came to take part. From Bognor Regis, until next


Thursday, good night. The laws in the state of Florida


are very harsh. The good men and women of


law enforcement


David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Bognor Regis. The panellists are Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, Labour MP Angela Eagle, the SNP's home affairs and justice spokesperson Joanna Cherry, the chairman of the Wetherspoon pub chain Tim Martin and the Times columnist, Matthew Parris.

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