16/03/2017 Question Time


16/03/2017

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Bognor Regis. The panellists are Jacob Rees-Mogg, Angela Eagle, Joanna Cherry, Tim Martin and Matthew Parris.


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Transcript


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We're in the Skyline Pavilion at Butlins,

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Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg.

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The Labour MP, who last year resigned from the Shadow Cabinet

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to briefly challenge Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of

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Joanna Cherry, who speaks for the SNP on Justice and Home Affairs.

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The Times and Spectator columnist, Matthew Parris.

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And the chairman of Wetherspoon, the pub chain, Tim Martin.

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You can join the debate on Facebook, Twitter or text 83981.

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If you push the red button, you can see the text going across the bottom

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of the screen. Our first question from Florence Holland-Norris,

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please. Theresa May said now is not the time for a Scottish independence

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referendum. When is the time? Theresa May is said now is not the

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time. When is the time, Jacob Rees-Mogg? I strongly believe the

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people of Scotland have the right, as all nations do, to

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self-determination. That they, if they want to be a separate country,

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have a right to do that. I am sure the people of Scotland could be a

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successful nation as they were before 1707. However, now is not the

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time because we are in the midst of the Brexit negotiations, which are

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about to begin, and there is a two-year period those will go on

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for, and Scotland would not know what it was leaving to until those

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are completed. Secondly, there was a referendum in 2014 which the

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Scottish National Party said would be for a generation. I assume that

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generations in Scotland are much the same as in England and three years

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is a pretty short generation. APPLAUSE

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Florence's question was, when is the time?

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I am happy to accept the generational aspect of the call by

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the Scottish National Party. That is perfectly reasonable. I do not think

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you can bind future generations. So 20 years? This is a political

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discussion. That is why we are having it! It is that, rather than

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being dressed up as a matter of great principle. It is a political

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discussion between Mrs Sturgeon who is a highly capable politician, who

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is trying to pick the moment when she thinks she will have the

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greatest chance of winning, which is completely understandable. She

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thinks with the uncertainty there may be in the midst of the Brexit

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negotiations, that will be the opportunity. From the point of view

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of Mrs May, it is the counter to that, that this is an unfair choice

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to offer to the people of Scotland at a point when they do not know

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whether they might get a very good deal within a Brexit situation. But

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what is going to happen to fishing and farming rights, that may well,

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if the current devolution system remains, go to Scotland? Under the

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current acts of Parliament, anything not reserved to Westminster goes to

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Edinburgh. That has not been settled, whether the things at

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brussels comeback. One final thing. It has always struck me as very awed

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that people who want independence from Westminster want immediately to

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come under the yoke of Brussels, and they have become the Brussels

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National party, rather than the Scottish National Party.

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APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, Theresa May has said

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that now is not the time. We heard are saying that today. When

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is the time? I am going to agree with Theresa May that now is not the

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time. If she had listened to what the First Minister said on Monday,

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she announced that she intends to hold a referendum in 18 months'

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time, approximately, because we know, of course, because Michel

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Barnier has told us and David Davis that within 18 months of triggering

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Article 50, an agreement will have to be reached, so there will be a

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six-month window of opportunity for the European Parliament and other

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parliaments to vote on whatever deal is reached. It is true we had an

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independence referendum in September 2000 and four. But the point is that

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circumstances have changed completely since then. -- 2014. Back

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then, we were told the way to guarantee citizenship in the EU was

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to vote to remain part of the UK. I realise that this part of England,

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and England and Wales as a whole, voted to leave the European Union,

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and I respect that. But Scotland voted to remain part of the European

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Union, and we currently face being taken out of the EU against our

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will. If there is one thing we learned this week it is that it is

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generally a good idea to keep your manifesto promises. And Nicola

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Sturgeon made a manifesto promise to the Scottish people in the Scottish

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general election last year, that the Scottish Parliament would hold

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another referendum if there was a material change in circumstances,

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such as Scotland being taken out of the European Union against its will.

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That material change of circumstances has occurred. On the

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back of that manifesto, Nicola Sturgeon 146.5% of the vote in

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Scotland, the highest share of vote for a government across the UK since

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1966. -- 46.5%. Even Labour in 97 did not get that much. So Nicola

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Sturgeon has a mandate on the back of a manifesto commitment to hold

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this referendum. Would you agree it is sensible to wait until the Brexit

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negotiations are finished, so the people of Scotland can see what is

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on offer before they have a second referendum on whether to remain in

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the UK or not? You will not be surprised that I agree with what the

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First Minister said. Do you think Brexit should be finished? The

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Scottish people need to make an informed choice. Wait until after

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the negotiation? 18 months after Article 50 has been triggered, as we

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were told by the chief negotiator for the European Union and

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importantly by David Davies, who told us this yesterday at the Brexit

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select committee on which I sit, that he agrees with Michel Barnier

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that an agreement will have to be reached within 18 months of Article

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50 being triggered. The reason is there is a two-year period and you

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need a six-month window for the European Parliament and other member

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states to ratify the agreement. So when I think it should be, I think

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it should be after that degree of certainty has been reached, when we

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see the deal that has been negotiated, and when other European

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Union countries are getting a chance to say whether they like the deal or

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not, Scotland should get a chance to say whether Scotland wants to take

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that deal or be an independent country. Thank you. The man there.

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You said that Nicola Sturgeon said that if there had been a material

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change in circumstances they would hold a second referendum, that being

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being dragged out of the EU. But if I am not mistaken, if you leave the

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UK, Scotland are not automatically in the EU, so you would be coming

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out anyway if you leave the UK, so that is contradictory to what she is

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saying is the justification for having a new referendum. Don't

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answer for a moment, we will come back to it. The woman in the third

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row. When you say that the Scottish people voted on the independence

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referendum in 2014, that they thought they were voting to stay in

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the EU, they already knew we were going to have a referendum on the

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UK's membership of the EU, and they voted to remain as part of the UK.

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APPLAUSE Forgive me, I will come to you but I

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don't want the whole debate to be dominated by your position.

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I would like a chance to answer. If you remember them, we can come back

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to them. Angela Eagle. I think we are divided enough at the moment and

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this is an opportunistic thing that Nicola Sturgeon has done.

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APPLAUSE I think the politics of grievance

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are not going to help us come together and try to make the best

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deal in the Brexit negotiations for all of the countries of the United

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Kingdom, and all of the regions of the United Kingdom, to.

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I think it's important as well to recognise that we need to work

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together in these crucial next two years, and to launch this second

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lead after only three years, to have an independence referendum, I think

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is mischievous, to say the least. APPLAUSE

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What do you expect Nicola Sturgeon to do?

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She says there is no contact between her and Theresa May, she is not

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being included in these things. What do you expect to do, sit it out and

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wait while negotiations go on? I think Theresa May needs to be more

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inclusive in the way she conducts Brexit negotiations, both with

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Parliament, which she initially tried to exclude, and also with

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Wales and Scotland. And I would like to see a special committee of the

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regions setup, socially could involve them, too. I think she would

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have a much more powerful and stronger argument to do a better

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deal if she was much more inclusive. I think when you think about it as a

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social Democrat, we want solidarity and working together. We don't want,

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and don't think that our country's future is best made by dividing us

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up and separating off one piece from another. Are you in favour of Jeremy

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Corbyn said he was in favour of, which was that he was fine with a

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second referendum? The Labour Party's position, and Jeremy has

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clarified this, is that we are against a second referendum. The MSP

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is in Scotland, Labour MSP is, will be voting against during the debate

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at Holyrood next week. We think that the SNP should get on with doing the

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day job and actually governed Scotland in the interests of

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everybody. We are doing that, Angela, we are doing that. As well,

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I don't understand why the SNP want to stay in the single market in

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Europe, which many of us wanted to stay in, but think it is OK, in

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order to achieve that, to leave the even bigger single market which is

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the UK. We want to stay in both. Do you know if the Scottish people have

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the appetite for a second referendum so soon? What is your view? I don't

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think they should. Matthew Parris. I don't think Nicola Sturgeon actually

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wants a second referendum before Brexit. I think she wants to call

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for it before Brexit and she knows she can rely on Mrs May to refuse to

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have one, so it suits both of them in lots of ways. But I do think that

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if in a sustained way the Scottish people want a second bite at this

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cherry, I think they should be allowed to have it. Circumstances

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have changed. APPLAUSE

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And here I agree with Joanna Cherry. Circumstances have changed since the

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last referendum in Scotland. It's a completely different United Kingdom

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that Scotland is now in. If the Scottish people want to take another

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look at that after we have left, then I don't think any government

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should deny that to them for very long. I must say to Jacob that for

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those who wanted to insist that the will of the people as to whether we

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should stay in the European Union or not should be consulted and should

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prevail, then to deny that same privilege to the people of Scotland

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seems to me perverse. This is a question of timing. I wouldn't begin

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to deny the right of the Scottish people to have another referendum at

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some point. Jacob, when you and people in the audience were having

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their referendum on whether or not to stay part of the European Union,

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how would you have felt if Brussels said it is up to Brussels whether

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you have it or not, and it is up to Brussels when you have it? That is

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what we are being told, it is up to Westminster whether or not you can

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have it and when you have it. If anything is going to destroy the

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union between Scotland and England, then that sort of attitude is going

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to do it. But you want the union destroyed, don't you? Hang on. Are

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you in favour... I don't want to destroy it, I want to create a new

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partnership of equals. All right, you want to break it. I would like

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to answer the audience. Coming out of the EU, would Scotland still be

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in the European Union, we are completely in uncharted territory,

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but at the moment Scotland is part of a member state. No other EU

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member state has said it would veto an independent Scotland's

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membership, and the current President... The Spanish have not

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said that. You can check. Go home and Google. The Spanish government

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have not said they would veto. Some voices in Spain are concerned about

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Scottish independence because they think it might set a precedent for

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Catalonia. But Esteban Pons, a member and a leading MEP pointed out

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that the situation of Scotland as an independent ancient nation which

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voluntarily entered into a union with another nation, England, is

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completely different from breaking Catalonia away from the rest of

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Spain. I will give you plenty of time later. Tim Martin has not yet

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spoken and we have had court of an hour. On a practical level, it is

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definitely right, as everyone seems to be agreed, that there should be

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another referendum in future in these particular circumstances. On a

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practical level also, it's very unreasonable to think that while we

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are organising the business of getting out of the EU, organising

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trade deals and so on, that at the same time but before you actually

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leave there is a massive political issue which is a referendum. If

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there is going to be one should be after Brexit has occurred and you

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also enough time to deal with it. The second row from the back. If in

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the next referendum that Scotland have they voted to leave, that would

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be great because it is democracy in action. I don't understand why

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Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are so in favour of being part of the

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European Union. You can't be part of the European Union and be

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independent. All I seem to hear from the SNP

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is about the English Government and the Scottish Parliament,

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why then have they got 50 something MPs in the United Kingdom Parliament

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because that's what it is. Shirley Scott, can we just

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have your question? Is the will of the 52% worth more

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than keeping a United Kingdom? In other words, is Brexit a price

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worth paying if it breaks I very much want to keep

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the United Kingdom, I think that we I think that for family ties,

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for historic ties, it's in England's interest that the Union remains

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and that it's also in I think it's important to us and,

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when you think of what your country is, I think my country

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is the United Kingdom, I would be very sad to see

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that destroyed and it's worth bearing in mind,

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that not far off 40% of people in Scotland voted to leave and that

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you see in opinion polls that quite a lot of people who voted

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to leave do not want, even if they supported independence

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in 2014, to end up in a Scotland So things have changed a great deal

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because of both referendums. I'm afraid, it's a price I don't

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want to pay and I don't think I think we can both

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have a United Kingdom and leave the European Union

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and that is the best Joanna Cherry, do you

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think that's possible? What Jacob just said, we can have

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a United Kingdom and leave the EU? Well, the difficulty is that

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Theresa May has been completely intransigent at looking at any

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of the compromise proposals the Scottish Government have put

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forward in the light To answer the lady in the audience's

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question a moment ago, the reason why we have 59 Scottish

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MPs, 56 of whom are SNP, at Westminster is because Scottish

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Parliament's is devolved and only has powers over certain things -

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defence, foreign affairs, macro-economic policy,

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immigration are all at Westminster. So that's why we presently have

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Scottish MPs at Westminster. Indeed, I'm proud to represent

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the people of Edinburgh South But I don't think it will be

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possible to preserve the UK because Now, three months ago,

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the Scottish Government put forward a set of compromise proposals

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whereby Scotland would remain part of the United Kingdom,

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but also part of the single market and Theresa May has

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refused to discuss those proposals and yesterday,

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when I was questioning David Davis, he ridiculed me when I suggested

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that it would be at least courtsey for the Government in London

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to respond to the Government In the last independence referendum,

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we were told in Scotland that we are an equal partner in this

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union, it doesn't feel like equality when your views

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are completely overlooked. We were asked not to leave the UK,

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but to stay and lead It doesn't look like we're leading

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the United Kingdom when we're It's not the politics of grievance,

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Angela, it's the politics We're simply asking

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for our voice to be heard. I just want to make one

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further point, David, because the people in the audience

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are raising points. No, I have to keep stopping you,

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only because there are four other people on the panel and a number

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of people in the audience. I know you have a lot

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you would like to say and I can't just allow you to take the programme

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over with what you're saying, Very happy not to take

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the programme over, but I would like the opportunity

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to answer specific points. I'm sure the audience would

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like their points to be answered. It strikes me we're spending

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an awful lot of time talking about, should Scotland

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have another referendum. I agree, it's the Scottish people's

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rights to have that. Right now, we are getting

:20:16.:20:17.

ready to leave the EU and it's far more important,

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I feel, and surely you must agree, that Scotland and Wales and England

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all work together so that we get what we want when we leave the EU

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and then afterwards devote the time to Scotland and then do you then

:20:27.:20:29.

want to have a referendum? What currency are you going to use

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if you get your referendum What currency have you

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got, the groat is it, It's perhaps worthwhile reminding

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ourselves that viewers in Scotland are watching this programme tonight

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and we, perhaps, shouldn't ridicule them in the same way that I wouldn't

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wish to ridicule people Unlike the British Government,

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when we hold our next referendum in Scotland,

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we will have a detailed plan and we will set out plan about how

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we propose to secure Scotland's We will set out our plan on how

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we propose to secure a rosy economic future for Scotland and we will set

:21:30.:21:39.

out our plan on the currency then and we're working

:21:40.:21:42.

on that at the moment. Right.

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on this programme tonight, You did say you wouldn't

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be tied to the pound, We probably wouldn't

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want to be tied to the pound? No, I said the pound might be

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a little bit less attractive if it was plummeting after Brexit,

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as it is now. We do have one of the worst

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performing currencies But I take no pleasure

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in that because the pound is important to the whole

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of the United Kingdom. I think there were two things

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in the Scottish referendum which were unhelpful

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in the overall debate. One was that Scotland would go

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to hell in a handcart There are countries

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the size of Scotland - the Republic of Ireland,

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New Zealand, Singapore - similar economies which have

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done extremely well. But the other point that no-one

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grasped the nettle in respect of - if you want your own country

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and your own Government, you have to have your own currency,

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a currency and a government sides of the same coin

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and so I think that that is a nettle that wasn't grasped at the time

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by the SNP Time. We've also seen the problems

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in Greece, in Portugal, etc and in Europe, as a result

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of trying to have a European currency with no

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government behind it. We've had a lot of questions

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about the Scottish referendum, We've also had a lot

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of questions about Brexit itself I'd like to take this

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question from Sue Bringloe, please, which is looking

:23:27.:23:28.

at the Brexit negotiations. In light of David Davis's admission

:23:29.:23:30.

that no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects of a hard

:23:31.:23:34.

Brexit, should the triggering This was before the committee,

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Joanna Cherry, that So, since he doesn't

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have any idea what might happen if it doesn't work,

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should he delay until he has worked Well, it was an astonishing

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admission at the Select Committee this week, from the Secretary

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of State for Exiting the European Union, that he's done

:23:56.:23:57.

absolutely no analytical work on the costs of the fallback

:23:58.:24:03.

position - which is exiting the European Union without any kind

:24:04.:24:10.

of deal - that they haven't done any work to see what that would actually

:24:11.:24:15.

cost and what the implications And yet, we have a Prime Minister

:24:16.:24:18.

who's gone round the country saying - no deal is better than a bad deal,

:24:19.:24:25.

but they haven't actually It seems that David Davis comes

:24:26.:24:29.

from the Boris Johnson school Don't do any of it and hope you can

:24:30.:24:35.

bluff your way through. Then following the Budget

:24:36.:24:44.

and this screeching, embarrassing U-turn on national

:24:45.:24:48.

insurance contributions that the Chancellor has put

:24:49.:24:52.

us through this week, are we going to let these

:24:53.:24:55.

people do the Brexit negotiations which are far,

:24:56.:24:59.

far more difficult than budget, a simple Budget, with 28 things

:25:00.:25:03.

in it, and he gets that wrong. So, I'm seriously worried now

:25:04.:25:08.

about how this is going. I actually think -

:25:09.:25:10.

...needed to stand up and say something then,

:25:11.:25:16.

on a Wednesday. He stands there and

:25:17.:25:19.

everyone turns off. You've got mobile phones,

:25:20.:25:25.

you've got everything. You're saying there -

:25:26.:25:27.

stand up to Theresa May. You've got your own leader,

:25:28.:25:37.

and he doesn't do anything. I know you don't like him,

:25:38.:25:40.

but you're going to Well, I don't think anyone

:25:41.:25:45.

can accuse me of not But the important thing, I think,

:25:46.:25:50.

for our Prime Minister is that she doesn't try to do this

:25:51.:26:01.

in the way she's begun by doing it. She's got to bring

:26:02.:26:05.

the nation together, She's got to take us forward

:26:06.:26:07.

and she has to do that by actually including everybody,

:26:08.:26:13.

not this high-handed - leave it to us, we don't want

:26:14.:26:15.

to talk to you about it attitude. I think, as a country,

:26:16.:26:18.

we will then have a much better I'm deeply worried about

:26:19.:26:21.

how they've started. Let me remind just you of

:26:22.:26:26.

Sue's question, Jacob. In the light of David Davis's

:26:27.:26:40.

admission no economic assessment has been carried out on the effects

:26:41.:26:42.

of a hard Brexit, should I'm so pleased that

:26:43.:26:45.

Mr Davis said this. Think back to the referendum

:26:46.:26:49.

campaign, the Bank of England, the OECD, the IMF all told us

:26:50.:26:51.

we were ruined. We were going to have a punishment

:26:52.:26:54.

Budget within days of daring to vote All these clever economists got

:26:55.:26:58.

the whole thing completely wrong. What we don't want to do is to think

:26:59.:27:02.

that we can model economically what may happen with any degree

:27:03.:27:10.

of precision in two years' time, depending on factors

:27:11.:27:13.

that are uncertain. We can't do that and it is a false

:27:14.:27:17.

position to put yourself in, What you want to do is to look

:27:18.:27:21.

at the general picture How do we trade with 60%

:27:22.:27:27.

of the world already? Would we need to apply tariffs

:27:28.:27:30.

on goods coming into this country That would be a voluntary

:27:31.:27:36.

choice for us, there So you can make an intelligent

:27:37.:27:41.

Judgment without getting in all these people who got it

:27:42.:27:49.

so hopeless wrong only a year ago and I think it's worth

:27:50.:27:52.

learning from experience. ..are you talking about accepting

:27:53.:27:54.

10% tariffs for our car industry, which would put the automotive

:27:55.:28:01.

industry at a huge disadvantage? And, between 30% and 40%

:28:02.:28:05.

tariffs which the WTO has On those two points,

:28:06.:28:09.

we've already had a bigger depreciation in the pound

:28:10.:28:14.

than in the tariff that would apply to cars

:28:15.:28:16.

and on agriculture we are only 55% So that if those tariffs

:28:17.:28:19.

were imposed on British beef, for example, and we opposed 70%

:28:20.:28:23.

tariffs, because they're 70% on beef, on Irish beef,

:28:24.:28:27.

that would be fantastic I'm not saying we should do this,

:28:28.:28:30.

but we would be in a very strong position to retaliate if vicious

:28:31.:28:36.

tariffs were imposed on us. We have a huge trade deficit

:28:37.:28:38.

with the European Union. The person in the spectacles there,

:28:39.:28:42.

in the middle, yes. Surely the panel would accept,

:28:43.:28:48.

maybe bar the two socialist, that free enterprise and unilateral

:28:49.:28:54.

free trade, as proven throughout the Victorian era and indeed

:28:55.:28:57.

with the great man Robert Peel, is extremely effective and British

:28:58.:28:59.

business and free enterprise will always overcome trade barriers

:29:00.:29:01.

put up by other countries and that specialisation

:29:02.:29:04.

is the key to success? Well, I'm afraid, I have to agree

:29:05.:29:09.

with Jacob Rees-Mogg. It is absolutely impossible to do

:29:10.:29:16.

any kind of assessment of what might happen to us if we crash out

:29:17.:29:19.

of the European Union And it breaks my heart,

:29:20.:29:22.

Jacob, that you and your friends are taking us

:29:23.:29:30.

down this road. So you think the outcome is going

:29:31.:29:33.

to be falling off the cliff? We may get a very hard Brexit,

:29:34.:29:41.

we may get a crashing out It's perfectly clear I think,

:29:42.:29:46.

to almost everybody who travels on the continent, that our European

:29:47.:29:52.

partners are not going I negotiate a lot of trading

:29:53.:29:55.

agreements over the years and the one thing, as I think some

:29:56.:30:05.

people have said here, Jacob said, is you can't guarantee the outcome

:30:06.:30:09.

in advance and there are so many variables it may not

:30:10.:30:12.

be worthwhile trying. I think our best approach

:30:13.:30:16.

with the EU is to tay - we're happy to do a free trade deal

:30:17.:30:29.

with you or we'll trade under World Trade Organisation

:30:30.:30:33.

rules, its's up to you. It's under those circumstances

:30:34.:30:35.

we'll get the best deal. If everyone says, we're desperate

:30:36.:30:37.

for a free trade deal, But if we don't impose any tariffs -

:30:38.:30:39.

at the moment the EU is not a free trading organisation,

:30:40.:30:45.

for 7% of the world it's free trade, for the other 93%

:30:46.:30:47.

there are huge tariffs. We can drop the prices that people

:30:48.:30:49.

pay in the shops, in Bognor Regis, by 7% or 8% from the end

:30:50.:30:54.

of the Brexit negotiations if just don't charge any tariffs

:30:55.:30:57.

for third party countries. The woman up there. It might sound a

:30:58.:31:19.

bit simple and it seems obvious to me that surely a lot of these

:31:20.:31:24.

conversations and decisions should have been spoken about and made

:31:25.:31:28.

before we were given the choice to vote.

:31:29.:31:28.

APPLAUSE Joanna Cherry, do you agree?

:31:29.:31:35.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, madam. Yesterday's performance by

:31:36.:31:42.

David Davies, bit for the EU select committee was quite extraordinary,

:31:43.:31:46.

and all credit to the chair of the existing EU select committee,

:31:47.:31:50.

Hillary Benn, and also -- and also, Angela's colleague, or putting David

:31:51.:31:56.

Davies on the spot. Not only did he tell us he had made no economic

:31:57.:32:01.

assessment of the effect of crashing out of the EU with no deal, but he

:32:02.:32:07.

also went on to say that yes, if we fell back and relied on WTO rules,

:32:08.:32:15.

30-40% would be slapped on British agricultural exports, 10% on car

:32:16.:32:19.

exports. He went on to say that yes, he had not really thought about it

:32:20.:32:23.

but now that it was put to him, yes, we would all lose our health

:32:24.:32:29.

insurance when travelling abroad. He also said yes, the financial

:32:30.:32:31.

services sector which is so important to London and Edinburgh,

:32:32.:32:35.

which I represent, will lose its passport in rights. He also agreed

:32:36.:32:40.

with Hillary Benn that we would fall out of the EU United States open

:32:41.:32:43.

skies agreement which would make airfares more expensive. I respect

:32:44.:32:48.

the fact that the people of England and Wales voted to leave the

:32:49.:32:51.

European Union but I am sure the people of England and Wales did not

:32:52.:32:55.

vote to make their country poorer and did not vote to make their

:32:56.:33:00.

country have less free trade. It might surprise you to hear this, as

:33:01.:33:05.

a Scottish Nationalists I'm a fan of English wine. You have some great

:33:06.:33:11.

wine in this area of West Sussex. If you crash out with no deal, 32%

:33:12.:33:16.

tariffs for export of that wine will be slapped on. These are the things

:33:17.:33:20.

that David Davis now admits to be the case but were not discussed

:33:21.:33:26.

before the referendum. Like the lady who asked the question, I am worried

:33:27.:33:31.

that we seem to be proceeding... I have two stop you again, I am sorry.

:33:32.:33:37.

Thank you. Given the incredible uncertainty with regards to leaving

:33:38.:33:42.

the European Union, does it not make sense to have a second referendum

:33:43.:33:51.

when the final deal is known. Well, secondary friend is being all the

:33:52.:33:57.

rage, why not? I certainly think, and I voted in the House of Commons

:33:58.:34:01.

for a meaningful vote at least in the House of Commons, a proper

:34:02.:34:05.

debate about the kind of deal the government come back with. I think

:34:06.:34:09.

that is right. Whether that be just a vote in the House of Commons after

:34:10.:34:13.

a debate, or a second referendum, you can make an announcement for

:34:14.:34:17.

either. Do you mean a House of Commons vote of the kind that could

:34:18.:34:21.

remove certain parts of the agreement, or one which is just take

:34:22.:34:26.

it or leave it? We wanted a meaningful vote which by definition

:34:27.:34:30.

does not mean absence choice. You have the whole agreement, or

:34:31.:34:34.

absolutely nothing. We would want there to be a vote when we could

:34:35.:34:37.

send the government back to the negotiating table. We can argue

:34:38.:34:42.

until the cows come home about whether there should be this or that

:34:43.:34:46.

vote in parliament and at what point there should be a vote. It will all

:34:47.:34:50.

depend on how public opinion approaches the emerging terms of the

:34:51.:34:55.

deal that we are going to get. And if the public turn against what

:34:56.:34:58.

looks like the kind of deal that we are going to turn against, believe

:34:59.:35:03.

me, Parliament will get a vote, Parliament will demand a vote. MPs

:35:04.:35:08.

are pretty pusillanimous people. They tend to put their fingers up to

:35:09.:35:13.

the wind and see which way public opinion is growing. Isn't that their

:35:14.:35:19.

job? It is. If public opinion is blowing against this deal there will

:35:20.:35:22.

be a vote in parliament and the government will not be able to

:35:23.:35:26.

ignore it. The people have spoken and have declared that two plus two

:35:27.:35:40.

equals five. Jacob Rees-Mogg. Matthew Parris says if public

:35:41.:35:44.

opinion starts to turn against what is negotiated, Parliament will

:35:45.:35:49.

change its mind. Do you agree? I take a completely different role for

:35:50.:35:52.

members of Parliament. We are there to stand up for what we believe in,

:35:53.:35:56.

put it to the electorate, and if they wanted, they will vote for us.

:35:57.:36:01.

I do not think it is about being a weather vane of the latest opinion

:36:02.:36:06.

poll which is probably wrong anyway. Parliament will have lots of votes

:36:07.:36:09.

but the British people voted in a referendum to leave. That decision

:36:10.:36:15.

needs to be implemented. What happens after we leave is going to

:36:16.:36:19.

be open to endless negotiation and votes, but the fundamental point is

:36:20.:36:23.

that that referendum was authoritative.

:36:24.:36:23.

APPLAUSE Doesn't this exactly show us that

:36:24.:36:34.

referendums with a yes or no decision are so difficult to bring

:36:35.:36:38.

to the general public? I think this is exactly the reason

:36:39.:36:44.

why the Scottish referendum has got to be a further generation, because

:36:45.:36:47.

I don't genuinely believe we are in a position to know the full facts.

:36:48.:36:52.

There are so many different questions and we are not being told

:36:53.:36:58.

exactly what those things are. Well, we know we are not getting ?350

:36:59.:37:06.

million a week for the NHS. As Jacob says, he prefers the net figure. We

:37:07.:37:11.

have a lot of Hamza and we have other questions. Instead of asking

:37:12.:37:15.

questions of the panel, if I could hear your opinions. The woman up

:37:16.:37:28.

there. What is your view? I just wondered if the MPs got to debate

:37:29.:37:32.

it, if they would vote with their conscience, or vote as they were

:37:33.:37:37.

told. It was your question, wasn't it? What is your view? We are

:37:38.:37:42.

stronger together. The MPs are not representing us very well. They are

:37:43.:37:46.

doing what they are told by the whips, not what they believe in. The

:37:47.:37:53.

man in red on the gangway. This is probably a moot point, as if Marine

:37:54.:37:59.

Le Pen wins in May, she has said she will come out of the euro, which is

:38:00.:38:03.

the cement of the European Union and it will come crashing down. In the

:38:04.:38:11.

front row. I think as the Americans are saying that the war is too

:38:12.:38:14.

dangerous to be left to the generals, what we heard today from

:38:15.:38:19.

Jacob is so frightening that perhaps Brexit is too dangerous to be left

:38:20.:38:24.

to the Conservatives, because it is the generation of our children and

:38:25.:38:29.

their children. It is becoming ideological and not what is going to

:38:30.:38:36.

happen in the negotiation. I'm sorry to disagree but I think it is a huge

:38:37.:38:42.

economic opportunity for us that, as Tim pointed out, the EU is free

:38:43.:38:49.

trade for 7% of the world. 93% is kept out by tariff barriers. We want

:38:50.:38:53.

to be trading with the whole world, not focusing on a narrow Europeans

:38:54.:38:59.

fear. That is a generational choice. We already do half of our trade with

:39:00.:39:04.

our nearest neighbours, democracies in the European Union. That is

:39:05.:39:09.

because of the tariffs. We can trade with the rest of the world, too. We

:39:10.:39:14.

have enormous tariffs on the rest of the world. 32% on the wine in Tim

:39:15.:39:20.

Bosz 's, 17% on beef. We keep out of the rest of the world and make goods

:39:21.:39:26.

more expensive British consumers. I have heard a lot from the panel

:39:27.:39:31.

about England and Scotland. The UK includes two other countries. Where

:39:32.:39:38.

is their voice tonight? What is your view? We are stronger together. As

:39:39.:39:43.

an English man, I would like to have a vote as to whether or not I want

:39:44.:39:48.

Scotland to be part of the United Kingdom.

:39:49.:39:48.

APPLAUSE The woman at the back.

:39:49.:40:01.

I think we have a lesson to learn about intersection, which is that

:40:02.:40:05.

when we are talking about racism, white people should be quiet. When

:40:06.:40:09.

we are talking about sexism, men should be quiet. And when we are

:40:10.:40:12.

talking about Scottish independence, English people should be quiet. On

:40:13.:40:19.

that note, I am going to move on. We will have more debate on this. We

:40:20.:40:24.

are going to be in Wales next week. We're in Bangor next week and then

:40:25.:40:31.

on Monday 27th March at 8.30pm we've a special Question Time

:40:32.:40:34.

from Birmingham - What happens once

:40:35.:40:36.

Article 50 is triggered? And Question Time from

:40:37.:40:42.

Carlisle is on March 30th. I will announce all of that at the

:40:43.:40:56.

end, which will make you fall asleep, but the details are on

:40:57.:41:04.

screen of how to apply. Let's go onto a different point. Isabella

:41:05.:41:08.

Spooner. Should Philip Hammond resign? A nice, straightforward

:41:09.:41:15.

question. Should Philip Hammond resign after a Budget that lasted a

:41:16.:41:22.

week. Angela Eagle. Well, he has been put in a pretty humiliating

:41:23.:41:27.

position. We have had this huge, screeching U-turn on one of the main

:41:28.:41:30.

points of what was meant to be a very simple budget. He was meant to

:41:31.:41:36.

be a safe pair of hands and has fluffed his Budget. And the more

:41:37.:41:40.

astonishing thing was how it emerged that he had not realised he was

:41:41.:41:47.

breaking a manifesto commitment. Now, I read the Tory manifesto but

:41:48.:41:53.

apparently he didn't. You did not leap up and down immediately, it was

:41:54.:41:58.

Laura Kuenssberg at the BBC who spotted it according to Hammond.

:41:59.:42:02.

That is absolutely true, he was told by a BBC journalist that he had

:42:03.:42:07.

broken his manifesto commitment. He had not discussed any of this with

:42:08.:42:10.

colleagues. The Cabinet had not noticed. And we are putting these

:42:11.:42:16.

people in charge of Brexit negotiations. Was the policy right?

:42:17.:42:21.

Well, the interesting thing about the policy and the problem with the

:42:22.:42:25.

way he has botched it, we have a huge issue in the future with the

:42:26.:42:29.

idea that people can be made to be apparently self-employed and opt out

:42:30.:42:34.

for a minor tax advantage of their employment rights. Many people are

:42:35.:42:39.

told they have to be self-employed before they are given work, which

:42:40.:42:43.

means they cannot get access to sick pay, to holiday pay, to maternity or

:42:44.:42:49.

paternity pay. This is affecting our tax base, so he was right, in my

:42:50.:42:54.

view, to look at this whole area. But because he introduced the tax

:42:55.:42:58.

before talking about the benefits, and botched the reform, he has been

:42:59.:43:02.

dragged to the House of Commons by his own side and basically announced

:43:03.:43:06.

that even though there is billions of pounds of tax revenue at risk,

:43:07.:43:11.

that he can't do anything about it for the rest of the parliament. I

:43:12.:43:14.

think his credibility is going south.

:43:15.:43:18.

In business we frequently get things wrong. In fact, almost every day and

:43:19.:43:25.

if we had someone like Theresa May around to give us a good telling off

:43:26.:43:28.

we would change our mind more quickly. We always say within

:43:29.:43:36.

Wetherspoon it's fine to zig-zag to a good conclusion. There is nothing

:43:37.:43:41.

wrong with making a mistake, you have to own up and then get on with

:43:42.:43:43.

it. APPLAUSE

:43:44.:43:48.

A woman is shouting at you. It's OK to make a mistake even if you are

:43:49.:43:51.

the Chancellor? Surely this is an example of incompetence? No.

:43:52.:43:57.

Chancellor's make mistakes all the time. The amaze thing about

:43:58.:44:02.

democracy is that it works. We have all these debates. We have debates

:44:03.:44:06.

in Parliament. Angela gets on the case, so does Jacob and that's why

:44:07.:44:11.

it's such a great system. The problem with the European system is

:44:12.:44:15.

that there are five unelected presidents. You can't deselect

:44:16.:44:20.

President Juncker. Great to have our democracy when we can point out

:44:21.:44:27.

Philip Hammond's mistakes. He's lost trust in the public. I think it's

:44:28.:44:33.

unacceptable Philip Hammond should have been humiliated in this way. By

:44:34.:44:36.

the Prime Minister snoochl by the Prime Minister. He must have

:44:37.:44:40.

considered Respublica Iing nation in the last couple of days. She must

:44:41.:44:45.

also take ownership for what was in the Budget statement. She saw it,

:44:46.:44:49.

presumably the Cabinet discussed it. How it has been allowed to arise the

:44:50.:44:54.

impression that it was all Philip Hammond and nobody else seems to me

:44:55.:45:01.

wrong. I think any Prime Minister who hue mulliataways her Prime

:45:02.:45:03.

Minister in the way this happened will find that revenge may well be

:45:04.:45:11.

served, as it was on Margaret Thatcher, cold in the future. He is

:45:12.:45:18.

a grown up guy he can take a chuff around the cheeks from the Prime

:45:19.:45:21.

Minister. For the Chancellor to resign at the moment, at this chit

:45:22.:45:26.

critical moment when we are about to trigger Article 50 would be against

:45:27.:45:30.

the national interest. He will be hurting and smarting. I'm surprised

:45:31.:45:37.

he would be that sensitive. He will have his revenge. Politicians are

:45:38.:45:47.

sensitive. Are they? Yes. You insisted this measure be blocked. I

:45:48.:45:49.

presume you were one of them? I said so in the Budget debate, that

:45:50.:45:53.

followed the Chancellor's Budget, I think that you need to look

:45:54.:45:56.

at the whole issue of national insurance and disguised

:45:57.:46:06.

self-employment in a proper way and have a fundamental

:46:07.:46:08.

reform of national contributory insurance, it's

:46:09.:46:09.

basically an income tax and look at What about the point

:46:10.:46:13.

that Matthew made? I'm about to come

:46:14.:46:16.

to Mr Parris' point. I do not think, as the lady

:46:17.:46:20.

asked, that Mr Hammond I actually think there

:46:21.:46:22.

is an enormous wisdom in being able to admit that

:46:23.:46:29.

you have made a mistake All of us, in our daily lives,

:46:30.:46:32.

make mistakes and we all know that it is better to correct that

:46:33.:46:36.

mistake and reverse it quickly rather than waiting

:46:37.:46:40.

and having to reverse anyway. The lady who asks about

:46:41.:46:45.

the Chancellor - shouldn't the Well, somebody said

:46:46.:46:51.

of Elizabeth I, a man called Wentworth, he said -

:46:52.:46:57.

none is without fault, no

:46:58.:46:58.

not our gracious Queen. For his pains, he got sent

:46:59.:47:03.

to the Tower of London. We all make mistakes

:47:04.:47:05.

whether we are the Prime Minister or the Chancellor -

:47:06.:47:14.

I'll exclude Her Majesty from this - but we all make mistakes

:47:15.:47:17.

and we are best off if we reverse Cannot just hear the pleasure oozing

:47:18.:47:23.

from Jacob Rees-Mogg as he patronises Philip Hammond

:47:24.:47:30.

and says that we all make mistakes. The fact is, the leavers don't

:47:31.:47:35.

like Philip Hammond. They don't think he's a sufficiently

:47:36.:47:37.

hard lever and they are enjoying the humiliation

:47:38.:47:40.

of the Chancellor. I'm so sorry, this is a wrong

:47:41.:47:41.

obsession with Europe that I used to be accused of when I was

:47:42.:47:44.

a eurosceptic before we had the vote This had nothing what ver to do

:47:45.:47:48.

with Brexit or anything like that. It seemed to me a bad tax move

:47:49.:47:52.

and one that was not Why wasn't it spotted then

:47:53.:47:55.

if it the climb down commitment that will he didn't

:47:56.:48:01.

want to break, why did nobody, the Prime Minister,

:48:02.:48:05.

the Cabinet, you... I think the error was that they

:48:06.:48:09.

thought that the Bill that had made it impossible to change national

:48:10.:48:13.

insurance covered the manifesto I think they looked at a more recent

:48:14.:48:15.

document rather than the original document

:48:16.:48:20.

and that's a perfectly... The 1922 Committee were told that

:48:21.:48:23.

willed there would be no reversal of this when they were complaining

:48:24.:48:28.

about it last week. There were Conservative

:48:29.:48:34.

ministers, on the TV, There are a lot of people

:48:35.:48:36.

who won't forget this huge mess. But that's deeply

:48:37.:48:41.

unrealistic and I hope that, when the time comes

:48:42.:48:45.

and I'm in opposition, Everybody knows that a policy

:48:46.:48:56.

reversal cannot be half admitted. You can't say - well, we might

:48:57.:49:00.

reverse it tomorrow or we might not. You have to wait until the point

:49:01.:49:03.

the reversal is announced. Of course we all make mistakes,

:49:04.:49:06.

but this was a colossal mistake. It was the centrepieces

:49:07.:49:12.

of his Budget. And now that he's had

:49:13.:49:13.

to do the screeching U-turn on it, there's

:49:14.:49:15.

a He didn't mention

:49:16.:49:17.

Brexit at all in his Budget, which most of us found quite

:49:18.:49:22.

surprising and concerning. But this is the man

:49:23.:49:24.

who's going to be in charge of the United Kingdom's

:49:25.:49:26.

finances as we go through the Brexit process, and he made

:49:27.:49:29.

a colossal mistake in his Budget. He seems to have completely

:49:30.:49:32.

forgotten about a manifesto promise. What happened here was,

:49:33.:49:36.

that the Tories rebelled Now, I'm sat between two Tories

:49:37.:49:38.

tonight and they'll know better than I do that Tory rebellions normally

:49:39.:49:47.

tend to be a bit slow burn, but this You could tell from

:49:48.:49:50.

the faces sitting behind the Chancellor as he announced this

:49:51.:49:55.

that people weren't happy about it This change would have had

:49:56.:49:57.

a major impact on small I'm sure there are many

:49:58.:50:02.

of you sitting in the audience tonight who would have

:50:03.:50:05.

been impacted by this. At the very least,

:50:06.:50:08.

if you are going to make such a huge change in policy, you should carry

:50:09.:50:11.

out some consultation with business Clearly, this was a smart idea that

:50:12.:50:14.

was thought up to balance the books

:50:15.:50:23.

in ignorance of a manifesto commitment that's had

:50:24.:50:25.

to Yes, in normal times,

:50:26.:50:26.

to answer Isabelle's question, in normal times one

:50:27.:50:29.

would think that this was a resignation matter but,

:50:30.:50:35.

unfortunately, we're not I don't think the public

:50:36.:50:37.

agree with that. I think the public

:50:38.:50:40.

think this was OK, It's about the ego, according

:50:41.:50:42.

to Matthew and really and the sensitivity of politician,

:50:43.:50:52.

we don't go for this. I'm sorry, we have only

:50:53.:50:54.

got five or six minutes Are we asking the

:50:55.:51:01.

impossible from the NHS Are we asking the impossible from

:51:02.:51:16.

the NHS to deliver with the money it has? Well, yes. You have to be

:51:17.:51:21.

swift, I'm afraid on this. I think so. There is going to be a real

:51:22.:51:27.

terms cut in the next two, three years in NHS budgets. NHS staff, who

:51:28.:51:33.

keep the whole thing going, haven't had a pay rise of any amount for

:51:34.:51:41.

years. The huge cuts to social care, which have happened since 2010,

:51:42.:51:46.

nearly ?5 billion worth of cuts to social care, have actually put

:51:47.:51:50.

enormous extra pressure on the NHS. Of the other week I did a shift with

:51:51.:51:57.

the paramedics in my local area, and they are constantly on the go. As

:51:58.:52:03.

soon as they deliver patients into A and clean the ambulance and get

:52:04.:52:08.

ready to go again, and say they are available, they are called. It's

:52:09.:52:12.

massive, increasing pressure. We have to realise that we've got to

:52:13.:52:18.

fund our NHS properly. We have got to ensure we fund social care

:52:19.:52:22.

properly and ensure those areas work together more otherwise we will lose

:52:23.:52:26.

our NHS in the next few years. Right.

:52:27.:52:30.

APPLAUSE Tim Martin. I'm worried the NHS is a

:52:31.:52:44.

sacred car if you have a car firm or agriculture country people compare

:52:45.:52:47.

it with other countries and firms in the world. We have to start saying -

:52:48.:52:53.

how does it work in France, Germany, Australia? I think they have better

:52:54.:52:56.

systems than us. They spend a lot more money than us. They do. We

:52:57.:53:00.

can't go on like this. It doesn't work any more. No-one wants to say

:53:01.:53:04.

that. The woman up there on the back there. Hello. It's the most

:53:05.:53:10.

efficient health in the world. It's not - Cheapest. It's not a car firm,

:53:11.:53:15.

it is keeps us all going. It's vial vitally important to this country.

:53:16.:53:17.

It's not the same as another industry. It's being treated as

:53:18.:53:22.

another industry. It's being under-funded. Personally - Sold off.

:53:23.:53:28.

Exactly. We need to protect it. We know what is happening to it. Is it

:53:29.:53:35.

impossible to deliver? The money for the NHS goes up year in year out. It

:53:36.:53:39.

was ringfenced in the age of austerity. It's getting another ?10

:53:40.:53:44.

billion before the end of the Parliament. I don't think endlessly

:53:45.:53:46.

providing more money is ultimately going to be the answer. There are

:53:47.:53:52.

enormous strains. The ageing population, one million more people

:53:53.:53:58.

over the age of 75 since 2010. In seven years. Why are we cutting

:53:59.:54:02.

social care? Social care is also getting more money. The Labour Party

:54:03.:54:05.

always thinks it's about money. It's not. It's going to be about

:54:06.:54:11.

delivery. We will have to think seriously how we deliver health and

:54:12.:54:13.

social social care in this country. We have to be open to reform. I

:54:14.:54:17.

don't know what that. Is I don't have a policy prescription, but I

:54:18.:54:20.

think we need a national conversation about how we are going

:54:21.:54:23.

to develop this because there isn't endless money. There isn't a money

:54:24.:54:27.

tree that is going to pour billions in. It has been protected in a time

:54:28.:54:32.

of austerity, but there are always demands for more. An ageing

:54:33.:54:35.

population, better types of medicine, on it goes. We need a

:54:36.:54:39.

serious conversation about how we are going to deal with this. Would

:54:40.:54:43.

you like to see or examine the possibility of a tax specifically

:54:44.:54:48.

for the NHS? No, absolutely not. They are a great mistaking they lead

:54:49.:54:52.

to the wrong amount of money, too much or too little. Too much gets

:54:53.:54:56.

pinched and the two little has to be topped up. Governments cheat on

:54:57.:55:01.

those taxes. I'd like to ask what the Government is going to do to

:55:02.:55:07.

provide more GPs? I work in a GP surgery and over the last three

:55:08.:55:12.

years we've struggled to even get locoms to come in because of the

:55:13.:55:15.

amount of paperwork that the Government put in place. So there is

:55:16.:55:20.

actually less time for patient care and then the Government say - we

:55:21.:55:26.

need doctors for 24-hours a day, we should make them work longer. They

:55:27.:55:31.

work hard. They work long. Is it money or the administration that's

:55:32.:55:35.

in the way? Both. You need both. We are asking the impossible from the

:55:36.:55:39.

NHS. We have always asked the impossible from the NHS. The NHS has

:55:40.:55:44.

always struggled, always wanted more money, politicians have never been

:55:45.:55:48.

able to give it as much money as they want. The result is that we

:55:49.:55:52.

have a good second rate health service in Britain for the cost of

:55:53.:55:57.

what would in any other country be a fourth rate health service. We get

:55:58.:56:02.

very good value out of the NHS. APPLAUSE

:56:03.:56:06.

But it's under strain. It's fraying. We must find new sources of of

:56:07.:56:12.

revenue. Just to cut to the quick, I think people like me ought to have

:56:13.:56:15.

to pay something towards our healthcare because I can afford to.

:56:16.:56:20.

APPLAUSE Joanna. Yes, the Tories are asking

:56:21.:56:27.

the impossible of the NHS in England and Wales because they under fund

:56:28.:56:32.

it. Health sl devolved in Scotland. We have pumped record funding into

:56:33.:56:35.

the NHS in Scotland. We have the best A waiting times in the United

:56:36.:56:39.

Kingdom. We have more staff per head than the NHS in England and Wales

:56:40.:56:43.

and you see no junior doctors striking in our NHS. What are the

:56:44.:56:48.

outcomes? The Tory Government should take a leaf out of the Scottish

:56:49.:56:53.

Government's book and fund the NHS in England and Wales properly. What

:56:54.:56:57.

are the outcomes? What is your point, Matthew? What are the

:56:58.:57:01.

outcomes in health in Scotland? Health in Scotland is improving,

:57:02.:57:04.

Matthew. Health in Scotland is improving. For example, ladies and

:57:05.:57:08.

gentlemen, prescriptions in Scotland are free. Vulnerable, disabled or

:57:09.:57:12.

elderly people get their prescriptions for free. What are the

:57:13.:57:16.

outcomes. You sir, your hand has been up all evening. Yes. Brief

:57:17.:57:20.

point we have to end. I think the NHS is one of the most fundamentally

:57:21.:57:24.

important things about the UK. I think it's far more important than

:57:25.:57:28.

Brexit. It's far more important than anything. People should have more

:57:29.:57:32.

say into what the NHS delivers and how it is run. I think it's far more

:57:33.:57:35.

important. Most people here would probably agree. Everyone here has

:57:36.:57:39.

and is going to use it. Way more people.

:57:40.:57:41.

APPLAUSE Thank you. All right. Thank you very

:57:42.:57:46.

much indeed. We have stop there because our time is up. Apologies to

:57:47.:57:50.

the many hands in the air if you can apologise to a hand.

:57:51.:57:53.

Our time is up. We are going to be in Bangor next week. On Monday, 27th

:57:54.:57:59.

March we have this special one-and-a-half hour programme on

:58:00.:58:02.

Britain after Brexit. It's coming from Birmingham. 8. 30pm on BBC One.

:58:03.:58:07.

We don't know whether Article 50 will have been triggered on that

:58:08.:58:11.

Monday or the day after. That is the context of it. A normal, no such

:58:12.:58:16.

thing as a standard Question Time, a normal or a regular Question Time in

:58:17.:58:21.

Carlisle on the 30th March. So if you can come to any of those

:58:22.:58:24.

programmes you will be very, very welcome. That is Bangor on the 23rd,

:58:25.:58:29.

Birmingham on the 27, Carlisle on the 30th. You can apply on the

:58:30.:58:38.

website. It's on the screen. Or call O330 123 99 88. This debate will go

:58:39.:58:44.

on Radio 5Live on Question Time Extra Time. My thanks to my panel

:58:45.:58:50.

and all of you who came to take part. From Bognor Regis, until next

:58:51.:58:54.

Thursday, good night. The laws in the state of Florida

:58:55.:59:21.

are very harsh. The good men and women of

:59:22.:59:24.

law enforcement

:59:25.:59:27.

David Dimbleby chairs topical debate from Bognor Regis. The panellists are Conservative MP Jacob Rees-Mogg, Labour MP Angela Eagle, the SNP's home affairs and justice spokesperson Joanna Cherry, the chairman of the Wetherspoon pub chain Tim Martin and the Times columnist, Matthew Parris.


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