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Tonight we are in Bangor in North Wales. | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
And on our panel tonight, the Minister for Policing, | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
The Shadow Defence Secretary, Nia Griffith. | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
The leader of Plaid Cymru, Leanne Wood. | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
The Church of England priest and Guardian | :00:26. | :00:26. | |
And the Times and Spectator columnist, Hugo Rifkind. | :00:27. | :00:46. | |
Just a reminder that if you are watching at home you can | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
join the debate on Facebook, on Twitter, or by text on 83981, | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
and pushing the red button to see what others are saying. | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
The first question tonight is from Jonathan Sutton, please. | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
Is terror part and parcel of modern Britain? | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
It's a quote from the Mayor of London who, in September last | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
year, said, "part and parcel of living in a great city | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
is you have to be prepared for things like this". | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
So is it part and parcel of modern Britain? | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
Terror is going to be present with us, I think, in the future. | :01:20. | :01:30. | |
I think if you think you can eradicate it, | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
it will come up and bite you somewhere else. | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
So I think it is a part of our lives. | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
And I think that we have to learn to live with it. | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
That doesn't mean to say we like it, or don't try and stop it, | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
but sometimes the efforts to stamp it out are the things that feed it. | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
You see, we know why we are talking about this. | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
We are talking about this because of what happened | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
And part of me would like not to talk about it at all. | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
To, as it were, say, "We pray for the people | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
who have been killed, we pray for the victims", | :02:12. | :02:13. | |
but don't give these people the oxygen of publicity. | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
Sorry, it's an interesting point, but how do you avoid | :02:18. | :02:28. | |
We have a free press and a media and we talk about it. | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
But there is a little part of me that would quite like the idea of us | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
on Question Time to go, "OK, let's move onto the next stuff, | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
They don't have a voice apart from ours. | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
Yes, it would be nice to keep this brief. | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
Well, I have sympathy for what Giles is saying, but there is also, | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
in terms of making the point, actually the fact that this show | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
is on tonight and we will be discussing other things is that | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
clear message that the British way of life, we will get on and go | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
We will not kowtow to this and the British way of life, | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
And I think that is a really important message. | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
But I do think there is also a space, and it is right there has | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
been a space over the last 24 hours and there will be in days and weeks | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
to come, rightly as well, to also just remember what it does | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
highlight is the phenomenal heroism and bravery shown | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
by our emergency services, particularly our police, and the PC | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
who lost his life yesterday, going out of his way to run | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
into danger, to make safe other people. | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
We have an amazing police service that do that for us in one form | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
or another at various levels across the country every single day. | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
But coming to the actual point of the question, | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
the core of the question, if we look at what is happening | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
around the world, you talk about do we have to get used | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
I think globally there is a challenge. | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
There is no getting away from the fact that we have been | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
at a severe threat level for some considerable period of time. | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
We have to face up to that, recognise that. | :04:06. | :04:07. | |
We also have to carry on and do our normal | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
work but be vigilant, as the Mayor of London rightly said, | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
But ultimately, remember we have phenomenal bravery and heroism | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
across our country every day, and we saw that absolutely | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
highlighted yesterday in those actions. | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
I agree with what Simon Jenkins said, the journalist | :04:23. | :04:30. | |
from the Guardian yesterday, who challenged the media | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
He basically made the case that what terrorists want | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
is for all of us to be fearful, and for them to get | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
And so the more we talk about it in the media | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
and amongst ourselves, as politicians, I think | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
the danger is that we are playing into their hands. | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
But the question was about whether or not we have to | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
accept this is part and parcel of our lives. | :05:01. | :05:02. | |
I do believe a Pandora's box was opened in the Middle East. | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
And I do believe that there is no end in sight to that conflict | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
And while that is ongoing, some people will have grievances. | :05:12. | :05:19. | |
And as a result, all of us are potentially unsafe. | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
But I think it is worth paying tribute to all of those people | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
who were in London yesterday who were working to save people's | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
lives and to prevent what could have be a much worse atrocity, I think. | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
Is Donald Trump right in what he's doing by trying to halt people | :05:37. | :05:45. | |
travelling and creating havoc for other people in other countries? | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
Well, the person, as I understand it, the person who was | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
So I'm not sure how any changes to immigration rules would have made | :05:54. | :06:03. | |
He was influenced by international terrorism. | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
Well, yes, but the access to that is available on the internet. | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
I mean, you can't really affect that by changing immigration rules. | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
If I may, I couldn't disagree more with the first bit | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
I don't want to live in a country where terrorists attack us | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
and we don't report it and where we don't know about it, | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
and where there is an agreement that the press shouldn't say it. | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
Terrorism doesn't need to make us afraid. | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
I kept thinking yesterday of the words of John Stewart, | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
He said that 9/11 didn't make him fear for society because he looked | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
at what had happened and he saw a handful of people that crashed | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
aeroplanes into two buildings, and hundreds of people who'd gone | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
into those buildings to save the people inside. | :06:51. | :06:51. | |
And he said he'd take those odds every day. | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
And I think that's the message you take away from terrorism. | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
You look at what happened yesterday, it doesn't make us feel | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
It shouldn't make us feel more frightened about our country. | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
We can find a positive message if we want one. | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
I think there was a really key point made by a colleague this morning | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
who saw something on the underground coming back into | :07:09. | :07:10. | |
Underground workers had put a notice that said | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
something along the lines of, I'm sorry if my words aren't quite | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
right, but basically, "We will make a cup of tea and get | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
And that, I thought, was the right message. | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
Obviously this is a terrible incident in London, | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
but should our police officers be armed, following this incident? | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
Well, I think first of all I want to express my deepest sympathy | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
to the victims' families and friends, and obviously | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
we remember PC Keith Palmer and the work that he did | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
as a Metropolitan Police officer trying to defend Parliament. | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
I think this is a matter, an operational matter, | :07:47. | :07:49. | |
which is something which the police themselves need to decide. | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
We in this country have a long tradition of having both | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
And if the police decide that there should be more armed police, | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
But what is also important is that we have that very strong | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
link between our communities and the police, and so often | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
it is the police who are the eyes and ears in our communities, | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
who can actually work together with communities, | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
can give information to the security services, which can | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
And I think we should remember that our security | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
highly regarded across the world, have time after time prevented | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
The person who asked that question, he was unarmed, | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
the policeman who was stabbed to death, wasn't he? | :08:35. | :08:36. | |
I just think maybe the circumstances might have been different had | :08:37. | :08:42. | |
It's an unfair playing field, I feel. | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
I think we are talking about not discussing it, | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
but I feel for the victims if we don't talk about it, | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
do they then get swept under the carpet and forgotten about? | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
It's not about giving the terrorists a platform, | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
but it's just those individuals that lost their lives and were injured. | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
If we don't discuss it and talk about it, then they just | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
No one's saying we have a blanket, "Don't talk about it". | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
But what I was talking about, there is a way of responding to this | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
And then the media gets itself terribly frothed up | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
And that's the sort of thing we need to avoid because that's the sort | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
of thing that does the terrorists' work for them. | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
I know this Tube station sign where it said, "Dear terrorists, | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
you are not going to change us, you are not going to change us". | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
Something like, "We are Londoners and we have seen worse before. | :09:50. | :09:51. | |
"Thank you very much, but we ain't going to change". | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
And that's the right answer to this, as well as remembering and praying | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
for all of those people who have lost their lives in this | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
I think that by not discussing something, you actually | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
I think the way we need to respond is by not changing our actions | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
but not just pretending that these things don't happen. | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
So we need to carry on with our daily lives, | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
but I think to just completely not speak about it would actually | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
I think that's a really good point in that question around | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
having the conversation to have the confidence | :10:34. | :10:35. | |
We are very fortunate in this country to have world-renowned | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
We have heard over the last few months the amount of times they have | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
kept us safe and prevented things over the last couple of years. | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
And we have got, I would argue, the best police force in the world, | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
And that confidence to be able to say that, have that conversation, | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
is important in us having the ability to go on and live our | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
Jonathan Sutton, who asked the question, what do you make | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
I don't think we should make a thing of it. | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
I think we are unfortunately in a world where we have to accept | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
these things happen but I don't think we should allow it to change | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
And we should be very, very proud in this country | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
that we do have a system where our police police by consent. | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
And the police themselves are immensely protective and rightly | :11:26. | :11:27. | |
proud of the fact that the majority of our police are unarmed. | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
And that is something in our country that I think is worth valuing. | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
A couple more points from our audience. | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
The man at the very back, and then we will move | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
Does the media have a responsibility not to glorify terrorism? | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
Well, they talk about the acts of terrorism, | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
They should be looking at not glorifying it so much, | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
There has been a lot on television but not a great deal... | :12:00. | :12:11. | |
Things get said over and over again once you get | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
You don't actually gain very much information. | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
The policing minister has mentioned a few times that police | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
Why then every year are you cutting police budgets? | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
The thin blue line is getting thinner. | :12:30. | :12:31. | |
I'm not going to shy away from the fact that over the last few | :12:32. | :12:41. | |
years we have had to make some really difficult decisions around | :12:42. | :12:43. | |
We all know, and you have heard before, the problems we have | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
with debt in this country and we have had to deal with that. | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
The Budget last year, we protected police money, | :12:52. | :12:52. | |
and we've also increased the spending in this area, | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
The Prime Minister outlined some of where that money has been | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
They have the resources they need to do their job, decided by those | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
When someone talked earlier on about more armed police, | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
our armed police, I have seen them in the last few weeks at training | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
centres, they are highly trained specialists doing an amazing job. | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
You have cut spending by 25% over five years and there are 20,000 | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
If you were to listen now, morale in the police force is at a low? | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
Because I am an ex-police officer myself and I speak to officers now. | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
And there's a lot of police officers who leave the service because of | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
Well, I do speak to police officers of all ranks on a regular basis. | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
Most weeks I am out visiting and I talk to police officers. | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
And they are rightly proud of what they do, as I have said. | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
We have made tough decisions but policing is also changing. | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
Recorded crime, traditional crime is down 25% since 2010. | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
We have the challenge of the digital world | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
But we are also increasing the spend on areas like this, | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
counter-terrorism, to make sure we have the resilience we need | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
in this country and that police have the resources they need to be | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
And you are not content with that, briefly, if you would. | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
Crime is going down and more prisons are being built. | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
Is that one of the reasons why crime is going down? | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
The cuts are there to try and reduce the debt, | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
yet the debt is not being reduced, so none of this makes | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
Just before we go to our second question I should say this. | :14:26. | :14:37. | |
On Monday we have a special Question Time from Birmingham next Monday - | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
Britain after Brexit, about what happens after Article | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
Thursday's Question Time comes from Carlisle and the week | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
So if you want to come to Birmingham next Monday, | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
Carlisle on Thursday the following week, Gillingham, | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
there is the address address to apply to. | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
How will the Welsh economy cope when the EU funding | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
How will the Welsh economy cope when EU funding stops? | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
It receives a good deal more money than the rest of the UK from the EU. | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
I think, I mean all across Britain, it's going to be difficult. | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
I mean the economy is already struggling as a result | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
I'm constantly baffled by the way that Wales voted | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
One has to hope that the Government sees its role as being to step | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
in and fill the gap of a lot of the funding that a lot of areas, | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
including much of Wales, would be losing from the EU. | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
This doesn't seem like a Government particularly inclined to do that | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
sort of thing so we'll have to wait and see. | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
Well, I'm a Brexiter, I voted enthusiastically for Brexit and I am | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
For me, what was most important about it, wasn't the economic | :16:12. | :16:20. | |
argument but that actually, it enhanced our democracy, | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
that it collapsed the gap between people and power. | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
For me, power had become in Brussels too distant, | :16:30. | :16:31. | |
too alien and it wasn't something that many people felt that they had | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
They didn't feel it was there for them. | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
So because I believe in the power of democracy and the way | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
in which ordinary people can control politics through democracy, | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
I think it may well be the case that the rebalancing of the economy | :16:46. | :16:55. | |
that will be necessary will be hard for lots of people, | :16:56. | :16:57. | |
for lots of us it will be hard, but I think in the long-term | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
if we have our destiny in our own hands, it | :17:02. | :17:03. | |
will be much better for all of us. | :17:04. | :17:05. | |
Do you know Giles how callous you sound? | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
You talk about destiny and democracy, these are fine things. | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
Having a job is a fine thing, having a healthy economy is a fine thing. | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
I'm sorry but I think democracy really is a fine thing and I think | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
we have a great Parliamentary tradition which we saw | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
being attacked yesterday by terrorists and it's something | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
that we should rightly be proud of in this country, our democracy. | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
We should be rightly proud of our democracy and our democratic | :17:40. | :17:41. | |
institutions and we should not be giving away the birth right of our | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
That is something that you are given. | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
Let's not rerun that argument because that argument's been | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
I just want to ask, what politics has benefitted from this? | :18:00. | :18:12. | |
I think the really important thing is not only Wales but areas | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
across the UK have benefitted from EU funding specifically given | :18:19. | :18:20. | |
What really worries me is that Brandon's colleague, Alun Cairns, | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
the Secretary of State for Wales, has specifically said that there can | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
be no guarantee that these areas will continue to receive that money. | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
Now that does worry me because this was money that was specifically | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
given in order to boost the economies in areas | :18:36. | :18:37. | |
where there is need to do so to bring up the level of those | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
economies, to have greater equality across the UK. | :18:42. | :18:42. | |
It worries me considerably that we now have Government that | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
will ignore criteria and simply say, well, perhaps we'll have a pet | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
project here or there, and we won't get the distribution | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
Brandon Lewis, do you want to reply to that? | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
Well, I mean, the reality is, whenever there's a decision made, | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
we've got to get a good deal for this country, I'm | :19:04. | :19:05. | |
We have already, the Government's already, and we have been clear | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
that we guarantee the money for the EU structure | :19:12. | :19:13. | |
and the investment projects which were already signed before | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
we leave the EU, even if they continue beyond the departure. | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
I think the point that the Secretary of State for Wales Alun Cairns | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
is making is exactly right, which is that we are | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
going into a negotiation and what comes after that, | :19:25. | :19:26. | |
Yes, but we have the same amount of money. | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
It's about getting a deal for everybody in all parts of the UK. | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
We have the same amount of money, when we come out of EU, | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
we have the money that we don't put into the EU and the decision | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
about how to use that money comes back to the Westminster Government. | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
Now, the point I'm making is that, instead of using the criteria | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
of which are the most disadvantaged areas that need their economies | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
boosting, your colleague Alun Cairns and other colleagues in the Cabinet | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
are actually saying they are going to scrap this all together. | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
The negotiation with Europe is nothing to do with how we spend | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
the money that we don't actually give to Europe. | :20:12. | :20:13. | |
First of all, I would like to point out that Gwynedd as a county voted | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
to remain, one of the few areas in Wales. | :20:20. | :20:21. | |
And secondly, I would like to know, as North Wales is usually the poor | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
relative to South Wales, I would like to know how people | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
are going to secure investment for North Wales and not just it | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
Are you alarmed by what may happen, fearful are you? | :20:35. | :20:43. | |
I work for the third sector and see first hand how heavily | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
Let's hear from one other person, you with | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
It's symptomatic, the way you responded to that question. | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
The question's about Wales and you told us about democracy | :21:02. | :21:10. | |
I feel there is a democratic deficit. | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
I feel there is a democratic deficit for us here. | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
I live on Anglesey, we have opposed through all democratic | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
voices that we have, some plans for example | :21:24. | :21:24. | |
against the National Grid, and we are not getting that voice | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
through, although every representative vice from Anglesey, | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
from community councils, County Councils, | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
It was even discussed in the Assembly but because we don't | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
have powers over energy, I have a democratic deficit. | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
It doesn't enhance my democratic voice to be outside of Brexit. | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
Hugo, you said that you were shocked by Wales voting leave as a majority. | :21:47. | :21:58. | |
Do you think the people of Wales were misled or misinformed in terms | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
The building we are sitting in now was partially funded by the EU. | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
Do you think they were misinformed or misled in terms of the EU | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
projects that benefitted them so well? | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
Briefly on that because I want to bring Leanne in. | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
I think the various bits of the leave campaign and leave EU, | :22:19. | :22:27. | |
the other campaign worked very hard to prevent Brexit from being | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
a debate about the economy and they managed to do that. | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
They managed to turn it into a debate about God knows what, | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
I think that was misleading, wilfully misleading. | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
I wouldn't like to say that the people of Wales were fooled. | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
But the voters, it's a mystery to me. | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
I want to go to the point that was made up there | :22:49. | :22:56. | |
because the powers-that-be in Westminster are not | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
We are ignored on just too many different issues. | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
Plaid Cymru worked with the Welsh Government, | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
put together a White Paper outlining exactly what Wales's needs | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
We currently get ?658 million per year from the EU | :23:11. | :23:19. | |
and that is more than we put in as Wales and Plaid Cymru | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
put amendments down in Westminster to guarantee that | :23:23. | :23:24. | |
We included that as a clause in the Government's White Paper as well. | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
The Prime Minister has said that she will consult the nations | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
I've not seen any evidence that she has. | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
What kind of consultation do you expect? | :23:40. | :23:41. | |
Putting aside the fact the Prime Minister's been here three | :23:42. | :23:56. | |
Equally, the White Paper negotiations, I myself sat on joint | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
ministerial council meetings with ministers from Wales | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
and Scotland and Ireland as well, discussing issues, in my case around | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
security issues and law enforcement issues and what | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
What about the guarantees on our funding then? | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
Both discussions are going on, but we have started what will be two | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
Hang on, the Prime Minister came here and spoke to | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
She came to the conference last week and she's been here several times | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
Wales is going to lose ?650 million every year. | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
We want some guarantees from the UK Government | :24:38. | :24:39. | |
We have already got too many weaknesses and challenges | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
We don't have the tools and the powers to actually rectify | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
those problems in our assembly in Cardiff Bay. | :24:49. | :24:50. | |
I can't explain why people voted to leave. | :24:51. | :25:00. | |
Immigration was a big question throughout the country and many | :25:01. | :25:08. | |
More people get the news from tabloid newspapers | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
in Wales than they do from Welsh media sources. | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
So they don't listen to you, you say, your own constituency? | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
It's very difficult to get your message across when you haven't got | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
a very strong Welsh media, David. | :25:23. | :25:24. | |
It's very patronising, all this thing you get | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
from remainers saying people were fooled and they | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
The message people are hearing is that they were fooled, | :25:32. | :25:42. | |
it was all to do with the media, there was tabloid newspapers saying | :25:43. | :25:57. | |
People are grown-ups and in Wales they voted to leave | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
and they understood, like other people, | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
The idea that you come on afterwards and say, | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
they don't really understand, poor little dears, no, I won't treat | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
No, I said I don't understand, I didn't say people | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
didn't understand, I said I don't understand why. | :26:13. | :26:14. | |
The man up there in the blue and purple shirt there. | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
The reason that so many people in Wales voted the way they did | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
was because they know deep down they're going to be worse off | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
economically throughout this whole debacle, if you will, | :26:24. | :26:25. | |
but the thing is, where I come from in Wrexham, it was a massive | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
leave vote and the way the town's become over the last few | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
People can't get jobs because we have such an influx | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
of cheap labour from Europe and it's very demeaning. | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
It doesn't matter how Wales spends the money anyway because within five | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
years of the UK leaving there'll be no EU anyway. | :26:45. | :26:46. | |
From your point of view, you think the Welsh economy will be | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
better off, Wrexham will be better off and can cope? | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
I don't want to be tied to a dying union, at the end of the day. | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
Jessica Berry who asked the question? | :27:04. | :27:04. | |
Personally I find it extremely worrying. | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
I am on a committee for part of the local service in our village. | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
A lot of funding that we have, we envisage that might | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
Like the lady said down there, an awful lot of the third sector | :27:19. | :27:26. | |
funding which is replacing the cuts that the councils are having to make | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
are being funded by the EU and we are just going to end | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
But what is your view about what Leanne said about wanting | :27:34. | :27:42. | |
the Prime Minister and the Government to give guarantees? | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
Do you feel that the voice of Wales is being heard or ignored? | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
I would love it if Westminster did give a guarantee but they never said | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
they were going to and I would very much doubt that they will. | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
From what Leanne's been saying, Westminster hasn't been listening, | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
it isn't listening and it's not likely to listen in the future. | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
So let's have a grown-up debate about independence in Wales. | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
You can't Visit Wales without having a question on independence. | :28:08. | :28:18. | |
You, Sir, in the front, then we'll move on? | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
I voted for leave and I fought for Labour leave here in Bangor. | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
I voted for direct democracy and I voted for a fairer immigration | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
system and I'm actually married to an immigrant, a non-EU | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
We have gone far away from the money issue. | :28:33. | :28:44. | |
Let's go on to another question though. | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
Time is always against us on Question Time. | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
David Arkwright, can we have your question? | :28:52. | :28:53. | |
Is it fair to families of victims murdered by Martin McGuinness | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
and the IRA to heap so much praise on him? | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
Is it fair to families of victims murdered by Martin McGuinness | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
and the IRA to heap so much praise on him, Brandon Lewis? | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
First of all, I couldn't and none of us could condone what happened | :29:08. | :29:15. | |
The reality is, in his later life, he was undoubtedly a very, | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
very important part of getting through that peace process | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
and where we are now in Northern Ireland and I think | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
But that doesn't mean that anybody should forget | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
what many victims will feel from what happened before that. | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
He never apologised for his time in the IRA? | :29:36. | :29:37. | |
I think it's one of those things, if we look at... | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
Here is a very extreme example of the fact that many, | :29:41. | :29:42. | |
many people who're involved in things around the world, | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
throughout history, are very, very complex individuals and he's | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
done things that I would Never dream to condone and I wouldn't think | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
anybody in this audience or watching this programme would | :29:55. | :29:56. | |
He was also, and it's rightly recognised, that there was a point | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
in his life when he became an integral part in delivering | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
really important peace process in Northern Ireland and that's just | :30:07. | :30:08. | |
I think the reason why men like Martin McGuinness had to bring | :30:09. | :30:17. | |
peace in Northern Ireland is because men like Martin McGuinness | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
The point is, though, that making peace, | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
Part of the sacrifice made by the victims of the IRA entailed | :30:27. | :30:35. | |
that men like Martin McGuinness got to spend the rest of their life | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
wandering around as if they were fully functional, | :30:39. | :30:40. | |
And I can't regret that it was done because there is peace | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
Well, I absolutely condemn the violent acts that | :30:46. | :30:55. | |
Martin McGuinness may have had a part in in the earlier | :30:56. | :30:57. | |
And I think the pictures that we've seen on our television screens this | :30:58. | :31:12. | |
week have just brought back the horror of the Troubles | :31:13. | :31:14. | |
But I think if you look at who went to his funeral, | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
there was respect, in the end, for what he did in terms of working | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
with people across the political divide in Northern Ireland, | :31:22. | :31:23. | |
working with people like Ian Paisley, to try | :31:24. | :31:25. | |
I would say its respect for trying to bring some sort of peace | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
It's by no manner finished yet, and there is still the past to be | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
dealt with and there needs to be a proper process | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
for dealing with that past, before Northern Ireland | :31:41. | :31:42. | |
I think the reason that he's gone down the line of talking | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
is because he saw it was coming to an end, the IRA. | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
The police and MI5 had infiltrated into the IRA and he could see | :31:53. | :32:01. | |
that there was going to be an end, and he thought, "I'll go down | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
the political way and make life easy for myself". | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
I think we must remember the victims on both sides of this conflict. | :32:13. | :32:20. | |
It was horrific when it was going on, both the unionist | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
And the deaths of civilians is always, always wrong. | :32:25. | :32:32. | |
And there were 3,352 people who lost their lives | :32:33. | :32:44. | |
And I can fully understand why those people who were affected can perhaps | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
never, ever forgive the actions of those people who | :32:50. | :32:51. | |
But I think that peace was secured as a result of a change of tack. | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
And, OK, we could argue that peace could have come much earlier. | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
And I think that it saved many lives, had it not | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
So Martin McGuinness is known for his IRA involvement. | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
But I think he should also be recognised for his role | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
Giles Fraser, just to remind you of the question. | :33:20. | :33:27. | |
Is it fair to the families of victims murdered by the IRA | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
But I'm afraid peacemaking is often not fair. | :33:31. | :33:38. | |
It's an incredibly messy business, making peace. | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
And one of the things that is so morally complicated | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
is that sometimes justice, getting your just desserts, | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
And so many peaces are messy and not entirely just around the world. | :33:50. | :33:59. | |
Look, if they had killed my mum or my kids, I'd have found it | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
But yet there is no future without forgiveness. | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
There is no future for Northern Ireland. | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
And if you go down this Norman Tebbit line, | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
that he was a coward and there's nothing to be... | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
Norman Tebbit would never have made peace in Northern Ireland. | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
The idea that you can make peace by winning is nonsense. | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
And furthermore, not only is it morally | :34:28. | :34:29. | |
problematic to make peace, but you have to do it. | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
We will have to do that also with the people who are putting | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
If we want to have peace, we have to talk to the bad guys. | :34:36. | :34:45. | |
Why do you say that Norman Tebbit would not ever have made peace | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
Because his approach is that we have to somehow win, militarily win. | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
The idea that it's just all about your truth, | :34:54. | :35:02. | |
your way of looking at things, and you have to give up your truth. | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
There's a wonderful poem by an Israeli poet | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
And it is, "From the place where we are right, | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
flowers will never grow in the spring", he says. | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
And the whole idea is, if you completely stick | :35:24. | :35:25. | |
to you being right, to your justice, to what you see, there | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
You actually have to shift, and it's uncomfortable | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
And that's why, yes, today, the day of his funeral, | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
I will not be standing up and condemning him as | :35:41. | :35:42. | |
Of course, I prefer his later work to his earlier work, | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
but actually there would be no peace in Northern Ireland | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
without Martin McGuinness and that has to be remembered. | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
The man in spectacles in the middle there. | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
The IRA created more mayhem in this country than Isis has ever done. | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
Will we, in 25 years' time, be, if you like, praising | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
I quite agree with the turbulent priest. | :36:07. | :36:17. | |
We have always had to negotiate with nasty people. | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
We had to do it with Jomo Kenyatta in Kenya and Makarios in Cyprus. | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
I was there in both places at the time. | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
You say there's no future without forgiveness. | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
At what point do you forgive a terrorist? | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
The question, it seems to me, is, do you want to have a future? | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
Do you want to have a future that is peaceful, or do | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
you want to go for this tit-for-tat, you go for them, they go | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
At some point, that has to be, you have to break the cycle, | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
And the way of doing that is not always clean and easy. | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
So at what point do you forgive them? | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
I'm uncomfortable with an attack on Norman Tebbit in this context. | :37:07. | :37:13. | |
In this context, if only this context, Norman Tebbit | :37:14. | :37:15. | |
He was blown up in the Brighton bombing. | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
And his points, his main point, the reason why he never forgave | :37:21. | :37:29. | |
Martin McGuinness was that Martin McGuinness never seemed | :37:30. | :37:31. | |
to believe that he'd done anything that required forgiveness. | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
And as I said when we began this discussion, I fully understand that | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
peace requires compromise on both sides. | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
I think it would have been a lot easier for the victims of the IRA | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
if men like Martin McGuinness had admitted that maybe | :37:48. | :37:49. | |
they'd put a foot wrong in killing so many people. | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
We will change tack once more and have a question | :37:52. | :38:00. | |
I think it's about the former Chancellor of the Exchequer. | :38:01. | :38:14. | |
But we've got three MPs here, and they've all got other jobs | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
of one sort or another that we'll find out about, I think. | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
Well, you lead your party, and you're a Shadow Defence Secretary. | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
Anyway, George Osborne became editor of the Evening Standard. | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
He also makes 650 grand a year for advising Blackrock and all that. | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
I think it should be a full-time job. | :38:34. | :38:44. | |
I'm an Assembly member, not a member of Parliament, | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
but it is a very privileged position to hold, and it's a very | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
time-consuming job, particularly if you're a leader of a political | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
party as well, perhaps even more time-consuming. | :38:58. | :38:59. | |
People should be able to live quite well and comfortably | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
And it seems to me that people who want more than one | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
Brandon Lewis, where are you on your former Chancellor? | :39:10. | :39:20. | |
Well, actually I think the fact that he was the Chancellor | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
He was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which is a very, | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
very time-consuming job and a member of Parliament for his constituency. | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
In fact, the time he took being Chancellor did not stop him | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
being a good constituency MP, so much so that he was re-elected | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
So I think in that sense, ministers, all of us, | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
are doing a ministerial job as well as a constituency job. | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
I think there's also the fact that Parliament's got a long history | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
and track record of having great assets brought into Parliament | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
by members of Parliament who are backbenchers, | :39:54. | :39:55. | |
who have interests and jobs and work experience outside of Parliament. | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
I think it would be a dangerous thing to have members of Parliament, | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
particularly backbenchers, who are not able | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
It's also right that there is a body that assesses | :40:05. | :40:15. | |
whether somebody is doing something that is within the Ministerial Code, | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
if you're a minister, and whether it's a conflict | :40:19. | :40:20. | |
And that body is looking at all of this, including George Osborne. | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
That body will look at George Osborne and it is a matter | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
for the Parliamentary Standards Commission. | :40:28. | :40:28. | |
You are a Tory minister, and the story going around, | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
of course, is that he was sacked by Theresa May, rather | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
peremptorily, from his post as Chancellor of the Exchequer. | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
He has become editor of the London Evening Standard, | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
from which point he will wage a campaign against Theresa May | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
and against what the Government is doing in the Brexit negotiations. | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
Is that a legitimate thing for him to do as an MP from the backbenches? | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
I'm not going to tell a free press of any description | :40:55. | :40:56. | |
It's up to us as a government to do our job to the best of our ability, | :40:57. | :41:04. | |
to deliver for the country, and to answer for that, | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
whoever happens to be editor of any given newspaper. | :41:08. | :41:09. | |
The simple question around whether a member of Parliament | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
as a backbench MP can do another job, if that wasn't the case | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
we wouldn't be able to have ministers who are members | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
A minister is different to a job outside the institution, isn't it? | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
I think most people would take the view, understandably, | :41:23. | :41:24. | |
that being Chancellor is as much a full-time job as editing | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
a newspaper or having a consultancy job with somebody. | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
What about being the fourth Shadow Defence Secretary in a year? | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
Can you cope with being an MP and with the Labour Party | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
The important part is that when you are an MP you have duties | :41:39. | :41:46. | |
in Parliament and you have duties for your constituency. | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
And part and parcel of being an MP is that you do either | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
serve on the front bench, or you may be a backbencher. | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
There are backbenchers who work extremely hard because we have | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
committees who scrutinise what the front bench do. | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
So that is an integral part of what you are doing. | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
I think it's incumbent on every single MP to take it very seriously | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
I think that alone is very important. | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
But then we come onto the issue of conflict of interest, | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
and I do think there is a real issue about being editor of a London-based | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
newspaper when you are trying to represent a Cheshire constituency. | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
I just don't think that when he talks about the interests | :42:29. | :42:30. | |
of Londoners and being more London than a Londoner and so forth, | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
I just don't think that's what the people of Tatton | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
I have a couple of friends who are Conservative | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
MPs, and I don't think they are paid enough. | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
The chief executive of Anglesey County Council | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
and Gwent County Council are paid about three times more than an MP. | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
And I bet the Chancellor of Bangor University | :42:58. | :42:58. | |
They do it for four years and might lose their job at the next election, | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
so why shouldn't talent be encouraged to come in? | :43:05. | :43:06. | |
You get some really good barristers, some army officers go into politics. | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
It's a lot of money, I agree, but if you can | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
earn more in the City, why don't you do that? | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
Parliament needs talent and to attract talent in. | :43:19. | :43:20. | |
So you think this is synthetic outrage about George Osborne? | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
Surely being an MP should be an absolute privilege, | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
and he should be serving the people of Tatton in all his interests. | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
Obviously it is a conflict of interest when his seat | :43:36. | :43:37. | |
And to say MPs aren't paid enough is an absolute slap in the face | :43:38. | :43:46. | |
As with any job, the question of whether you can have | :43:47. | :43:56. | |
another job while doing your job is a matter for your employer. | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
And George Osborne's employers in this context | :44:00. | :44:01. | |
If he was the editor of a national newspaper, | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
the Daily Mirror - unlikely, but if he was - | :44:09. | :44:10. | |
perhaps the voters of Tatton would think, | :44:11. | :44:12. | |
"This is great for Tatton that our MP | :44:13. | :44:14. | |
"is the editor of the Daily Mirror and he will look out | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
"for our interests and promote us across the nation". | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
I think the people of Tatton will be inclined to wonder why a man whose | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
own new employer has described him as London through and through | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
I think they would be looking forward to having Martin Bell back. | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
He had to sort Tatton out after Neil Hamilton. | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
Yet again, poor old Tatton is getting a bad deal. The boundaries | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
are changing in Tatton this time around, aren't they? The Boundary | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
Commission... At the moment the draft is that it would change, yes. | :44:52. | :45:02. | |
This George Osborne thing absolutely stinks. | :45:03. | :45:03. | |
APPLAUSE. And it's not just because he can't | :45:04. | :45:10. | |
get by on the ?650,000 that he's given by Blackrock and how that'll | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
work with him editing the City pages of a newspaper. That's not the | :45:15. | :45:22. | |
problem. The northern powerhouse means Hampstead to him. Do you know | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
what the problem is - we all fear that too much power in this country | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
is in too few people's hands. The idea that he is an MP and runs a | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
newspaper and is going to be the Archbishop of Canterbury and | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
everything, whatever it is, it just stinks. The job of a newspaper - one | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
more thing - the job of a newspaper is to keep these politicians honest. | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
That's one of the jobs of a newspaper and the idea that an MP | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
and all its chums now are running an important newspaper in London, | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
everybody thinks it stinks and it does. | :45:58. | :45:58. | |
OK. APPLAUSE. | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
Priests can be Guardian columnists can they without any conflict... | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
With God? There is a real conflict of interest actually, it's really | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
hard to do, yes because you have to be nasty as a columnist, you have to | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
be nice as a priest. That's the conflict. James Cook, your question? | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
Should Wales have a referendum like Scotland now that we are leaving the | :46:27. | :46:28. | |
EU? APPLAUSE. | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
Yes, plawz from two or three hands -- applause. Should Wales have a | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
referendum like Scotland? Nia Griffith, what do you think? We in | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
Wales are passionate and proud to be Welsh and you sometimes see that on | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
the rugby field. Results aren't always what we desire though. But I | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
do think we need to listen carefully to the people of e-Wales. 94% of the | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
people have repeatedly shown in poll after poll that actually, whilst | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
being very proud to be Welsh, we are not actually in the least bit | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
interested in an independent Wales. There is actually no call for that | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
in Wales. It's not what people on the doorstep tell me, it's not what | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
people in the shopping centres tell me. There are far more important | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
issues that they want to focus on. APPLAUSE. | :47:18. | :47:29. | |
Your First Minister Carwyn Jones said people in Wales are going to | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
start saying the Government are listening to the Scots. We need to | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
be like them, it's a dangerous path for the UK if they don't listen to | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
Wales? I think that we in Wales - it's very important we have our | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
voice and our First Minister speaks up for us but I don't agree with the | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
whered of having another referendum many Scotland either. I think this | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
is a distraction by Nicola Sturgeon, I think when she can't even tell the | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
people what will happen after Brexit, she can't even tell them | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
whether she could or would take Scotland back into the European | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
Union or even what currency they would have, I think there's exactly | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
the same problem for people in Scotland. They are being given an | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
opportunity to make a decision when they don't even have the facts. | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
Leanne, should Wales have a referendum like Scotland? With the | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
reason that there is going to be a referendum in Scotland, is because | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
Scotland voted to remain in the European Union and the Prime | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
Minister is ploughing ahead with a hard Brexit against their will after | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
promising to consult and failing to. So there's been a material change of | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
circumstances in Scotland. Let's deal with Wales. If Scotland becomes | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
independent, the UK will no longer exist and I believe in | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
self-determination. I believe decisions about Wales should be made | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
in Wales. Including that decision about our own future. There could be | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
very big changes. The tectonic plagues of UK politics are shifting | :48:56. | :49:03. | |
and does it mean for Wales? If Scotland becomes independent, the UK | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
won't exist, we'll be subsumed in some kind of England and Wales | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
entity, how will our voice be heard then when we are already ignored by | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
the Westminster Parliament? I think there should be a multi-option | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
referendum, independence should be included in that, but it should also | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
enable people, the 43% of people in Wales who want more powers, | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
including powers over our economy, so that we can address some of the | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
problems that we are facing, then those people should have their say | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
as well. Leanne, just to make it clear, when | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
do you want... Self-determination. I get that. When do you want it? Do | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
you think it should happen before Brexit negotiations? We are in a | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
different place. We are on a different stage on our journey, so | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
we are not going to have our referendum at the same time as | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
Scotland. If Scotland leaves, then that will constitute a material | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
change of circumstances for Wales. OK. I believe it's people here in | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
Wales who should decide on our own future. Hugh Rifkind? I am Scottish, | :50:07. | :50:14. | |
as people will be able to tell from my board impenetrable accent and I'm | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
a unionist, I believe that Scotland should be part of the United | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
Kingdom. What worries me more than Scottish Nationalists or indeed | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
Welsh nationalists is the tone set by the Conservative Government... It | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
is nationalists. In a sense if only they were, they sound like Welsh | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
nationalists. After the Scottish referendum, I think David Cameron's | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
Government in campaigning for the next general election, made a | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
horrendous disgraceful decision to attack Labour on the basis that | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
Labour might go into coalition with parties in Scotland, as if this | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
would be somehow shameful, as if we weren't a union where this thing | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
could happen. I think he was happy to alienate Scots in a quest for | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
English votes and I think there is a tone even now with the government in | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
Westminster where they call themselves unionists, they do not | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
behave like unionists. Being a unionist involves respecting the | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
nations of this country. You, Sir, in the blue checked shirt? We are | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
talking about Wales and Scotland having their voice, but what about | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
England? Wales, Scotland, have an Assembly or the Parliament, the | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
English have nothing. Westminster. They've got Westminster. So do you. | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
Well, if you listen to the debates that take place in Westminster, | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
Wales doesn't get too much of a mention, it's mostly about matters | :51:44. | :51:45. | |
pertaining to England. That's the point. I mean, I'm in favour of an | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
English Parliament but they do have Westminster. All right. Brandon? I | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
actually do think the discussion about a referendum in Scotland is a | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
distraction in the sense that they had a referendum just a short while | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
ago and the vote from that was clear. I think if you look at Wales, | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
and I am a Conservative and unionist, I do believe we are | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
stronger, and this is the key thing, I think we are stronger together in | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
what we can do for our economies and security across the UK. But | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
actually, not just taking the point around the polls here in Wales, but | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
also looking at what is happening. The Welsh Act does devolve more | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
powers to Wales. We patriot to the EU, there'll be an opportunity to | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
look at how we devolve even more powers in out parts of the UK. There | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
is an opportunity there and we are ultimately stronger together. It's a | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
precious union. The Wales Bill was a massive missed opportunity. We have | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
got 23% of people living in poverty here in Wales, how is that union | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
good for Wales? APPLAUSE. | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
If you think about the question we are talking about - Wales having a | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
referendum - we have talked about several times this evening, Wales | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
voted to leave the EU and we are delivering on Brexit and getting the | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
right deal for Brexit. The man in the blue pullover? The third man on | :53:12. | :53:19. | |
the back row wearing a jacket with blue. I love being a student here in | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
Wales and I think it would be a shame if they left the union. I | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
think they'd really struggle as well. Do you think there should be a | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
vote on it? It's up to them isn't it. The man in spectacles? The only | :53:32. | :53:38. | |
thing I would say is, people in Wales decided to leave the EU to | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
take power into their own hands. I don't think that automatically means | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
that we want an independence vote because, whether you like it or not, | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
our vote goes to Westminster, that's just how our power system works. | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
Giles Fraser, please? Here is the contradiction I think. Leanne's | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
position - I'm a Brexiter because I wanted power repatriated from | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
Brussels. If I was Welsh, I would want power repatriated from London. | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
That's what I would want as well. APPLAUSE. | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
I completely understand those people who want to have power much closer | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
to where they live and to the people that they know and that's why - it's | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
none of my business, but if the Welsh decided that they wanted to be | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
an independent country, that's for the Welsh to decide and I'd | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
understand why they did it. The woman in white? You have already | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
commented Wales will struggle greatly when it leaves Europe | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
financially. How do you think the country would cope if it left | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
England as well? Are you worried about that? You only have to look at | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
the fact that Wales has a fiscal deficit currently of just under 25% | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
compared to the UK deficit of 5%, that says a lot about Wales's | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
position outside of the UK. I don't want to get stuck into the business | :55:00. | :55:07. | |
of how Wales might vote but... Can I make this point. Very quickly? I | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
don't think many would disagree that there is a huge amount of potential | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
in this country that is unlocked. The question that I would have to | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
ask is, how do we best unlock that potential? Now, I think that we can | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
do much more by doing more for ourselves. But if there's | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
adown-onist answer to this, please let me know what it is because all I | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
see is that Wales, our economy, has too many challenges, 23% of people | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
are living in poverty and we are not getting any better in the system | :55:41. | :55:47. | |
that we are in. How would Wales survive with the money it currently | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
gets... At least if we had a plan to try and get there, we could make | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
those improvements to our economy. I think... The institutions... Let Nia | :55:56. | :56:05. | |
answer you? I think Leanne is living in a fantasy world. | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
APPLAUSE. Of course people want to be involved | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
in decision-making and what we have to do is to try to get the decisions | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
made at the right level. Some things it's appropriate to have at UK | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
level, other things it's appropriate to have at a Wales or Scotland level | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
or, at a local authority level, different levels of councils. All | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
right. How do we... Our time is up. That's a long discussion we can't | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
get into. We can get into this question with yes or no answers from | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
John Brook, please? Should the Prime Minister call a general election | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
now? Should the Prime Minister call a general election now and you can | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
say yes or no? Just speak, you can't be silent? Yes and no. Yes, | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
definitely. An election for you? Giles? No. Yes. The Prime Minister's | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
rightly focussed on delivering a very important piece of work, | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
getting Brexit done, two years of negotiations, we have got to get | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
that work done for the best interests of the country, we | :57:08. | :57:09. | |
shouldn't be distracted by referendums or general elections. | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
John Brook? Unless she called an election now, she'd have the biggest | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
majority in history. You speak as a Conservative? We have to do what is | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
right for the country before we think about what others might do for | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
the party. We are focussed on what she needs for the country. I'm a | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
lone voice because I live in Anglesey and voted Conservative, but | :57:29. | :57:30. | |
there we are. Fine. That is it. Our hour is up. | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
Thank you very much indeed. A reminder, there is a special | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
Question Time from Birmingham next Monday at 8. 30, Britain after | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
Brexit. Our audience will be questioning politicians on both | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
sides of the divide on that, what happens after the triggering of | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
Article 50. Next Thursday's Question Time is from Carlisle with the Ukip | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
leader Paul Nuttall and the Unite Trade Union leader Len McCluskey | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
among our panelists. LAUGHTER. I thought you might look | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
forward to that! The week after that we are in Gillingham. Birmingham | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
Monday, Carlisle Thursday, Gillingham the Thursday after on 6th | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
April. Go to the website, the address is on the screen. If you are | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
listening on Radio 5 Live, this debate goes on until the early hours | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
of the morning on Question Time extra time. My thanks to the panel | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
and all of you who came to Bangor to take part in tonight's programme. | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
Until next Monday, from Question Time, good night. | :58:33. | :58:36. |