Britain after Brexit Question Time


Britain after Brexit

David Dimbleby presents a special edition from Birmingham. On the panel are David Davis, Sir Keir Starmer, Nick Clegg, Alex Salmond, Suzanne Evans and Melanie Phillips.


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Well, at 20 minutes to five, we can now say the decision taken in 1975

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by this country to join the Common market has been reversed by this

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referendum, to leave the EU. The British people have spoken and the

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answer is, we're out. On Wednesday, we give formal notice

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to the EU that we're leaving ? with two years

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to negotiate the terms. Our panel is divided between those

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who wanted to Leave or Remain. The Secretary of State for Exiting

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the EU, the man leading the negotiations on behalf

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of the Government, David Davis. Labour's Shadow Secretary of State

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for Brexit, Keir Starmer. The former Deputy Prime Minister

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in the Coalition, when he was Leader of the Liberal Democrats,

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Nick Clegg. The Deputy Chair of Ukip

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who was part of the official Vote Leave campaign,

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Suzanne Evans. The Times columnist

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Melanie Phillips. And the former First Minister

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of Scotland, the SNP's International Affairs spokesman

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at Westminster, Alex Salmond. Our audience here in Birmingham

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is divided pretty much like the country itself

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was in June, 48-52. If you want to join the debate

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from home, we're on Facebook, And if you push the red button, you

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will see what people are texting. The first question to get started

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from Rachel Harbour. Should we expect to pay a large

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Brexit payment to the EU A figure of 50 billion has been put

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on it. David Davis, should we expect to pay a large Brexit payment, first

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question, before you negotiate? I don't know about 50 billion, I've

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seen 40, 50, 60 and no explanation for any of them. The Prime Minister

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said we are coming to the end of the time when we are paying enormous

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sums to the European Union. Of course we will meet our

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international obligations but we also expect our rights to be

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respected. I don't think we are going to be seen that kind of money

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change hands. Not that sort of money but some sort of money? Look, we

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have said before that we will meet our international obligations,

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whatever that turns out to be but that is nothing like what we are

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talking about. Indeed, the House of Lords committee on this subject

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reckoned that was zero a few weeks ago. So you are thinking you might

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pay zero? We will wait and see. I'm not going to do the negotiation on

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this programme, David, attractive as that might be and it might even hold

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the ratings up but the simple truth is, we are yet to engage in

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negotiation and when I go in a few weeks' time, no doubt I will hear

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what they think. The lead negotiator says this has to be sorted before

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other talks can start and do you agree with that? We also take the

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view that Article 50, the law, in the treaty, says that we resolve the

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departure arrangements taking into account the ongoing relationship.

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That means the ongoing relationship as do exist. Alex Salmond? I'm glad

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David is calling the negotiator Michel which is the only positive

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thing I can see in the negotiations to date. Should we expect to have a

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bill like that? The answer is yes and the reason is all the

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negotiating cards are in the hands of the European Union. We are going

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into a time-limited Brexit of two years and if there is no deal, then

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you go out on World Trade Organisation terms which despite

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what the Prime Minister says, would be totally disastrous, if you go

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into negotiations where the cards are in the other person's and,

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whatever you call them, you end up paying the bill. One thing I would

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say, we should expect to see the 50 billion paid into the EU long before

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we ever see the 350 million for the National Health Service that was

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promised by the Brexit camp. Melanie Phillips? We should

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definitely meet our international obligations but it's a question of

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what they are. Lawyers cannot agree about this as far as I can see. It

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is interesting that he is making this kind of pre-requisite for the

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negotiations to start from it is almost like we are getting into a

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situation where we have to negotiate about the negotiations before we can

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start the negotiations. Do you think he means you have to agree that bit

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of money before we talk about anything else because there is the

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old thing they always say, nothing is agreed until everything is agreed

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finally? Indeed, the negotiation has not started yet, Michel Barnier has

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made a very aggressive pitch and I see it as the opening negotiating

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pitch and it is up to us to wear him down. David Davis mentioned the

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House of Lords report. It was quite interesting, although as I say,

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lawyers do disagree but that said, if there is no deal, then bearing

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turbot eight of the relevant statutes, relevant treaty law is

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that if there is no deal, then we don't have to pay anything at all.

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Maybe that is why Michel Barnier is so keen to get this sorted

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straightaway. So we could have no deal and walk out and say... Go

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away? Lawyers disagree... Do you agree? I've no idea if it is the

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case or not but it seems to me, as in so many of these things in

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relation to Brexit, we actually have a strong card to play. Anyone who

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seems so overanxious, as Michel Barnier does, to get this done and

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dusted so quickly, is obviously quite nervous about his position.

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Rachel, what do you think? Are you worried about a big bill? I have

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some reservations because of the economy especially, that is the one

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thing I'm concerned about and I would like to see it go forward.

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Both members of my family work in the car industry and I'm concerned

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about the future of the industry. And the person in purple up there

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and then I will come to you, what is your view? I don't want to see our

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country get bullied into paying some money to the EU. I don't think it is

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fair. It is just the playground bully taking our lunch money and I

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don't think we should do it. APPLAUSE

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Nick Clegg, are we being bullied at the opening stage of this affair? Of

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course we are going to have to pay money, if he ran up a tab behind the

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bar for years and years and you haven't paid when you want to leave,

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you settle up. The EU has been very clear, they are not going to ask the

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UK for a single penny after we have left. They are simply going to ask

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us to settle the tab before we leave. It would be really odd for

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us, and I have to say to David Davis and the government am extremely

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unwise of the government on top of all the other unrealistic

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expectations they have already raised about this negotiation, that

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it's all going to be done and dusted in two years, it won't be, that

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there will be a cornucopia, a paradise of new trade deals with the

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rest of the world in 18 months, they won't. That we will have the same

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benefits of the single market even as we leave it. This week is when

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things change, when we stop talking to ourselves, lots of wishful

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thinking and reality bites. We are going to have to negotiate with 27

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other governments and parliaments and when you quit a club of which we

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have been a member for over 40 years, of course you settle up

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before you leave. It is what we do in the rest of our lives and we

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should do it now and we shouldn't pretend otherwise because all we

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will do by doing that if it will make you feel angry and disappointed

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when it doesn't happen. But do you anticipate as the president of the

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EU commission, Jean-Claude Juncker said, that the Bill will be, to put

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it a bit crudely, very hefty? Are you expecting 50 billion? I don't

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know the numbers but my prediction is this summer, David Davis and his

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friend Michel will agree not to put a number on it but they will agree a

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series of principles on how to decide the final bill and the final

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number probably won't be decided until the very end. That is what I

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think will happen but please let's not delude ourselves. You can't

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leave a club without paying... The commitment you have made other

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member. If I may, this is not a club... APPLAUSE

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It is often, when you are looking at a negotiating bid, it is often

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insightful to spin it around and look at it from the other side.

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Imagine if instead of being huge donor, a sizeable donor to the

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European Union, we were a beneficiary, instead of putting in

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10 billion per year, we received let's say 3 billion per year back

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and then we left, do you think you would insist on paying us for the

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next five years? We are a donor. APPLAUSE

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It is not a golf club. David, you can't pretend we are something we

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are not, we are a major economy in the European Union and we've paid

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money into it and made a number of commitment and pledges and promises

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in the European Union and all they are asking, if I understand it, is

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to say that we settle up before we leave and they won't ask for a penny

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more. We shouldn't fight this battle if we won't win. The man there,

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please, sir. I think we should meet our international obligations but I

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think the country is facing huge debt, public services are suffering

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and 50 billion is too much to pay. Do you agree with him, Suzanne

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Evans? Absolutely, we should not be paying them a penny. APPLAUSE

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I don't know what kind of weird clubs you are a member of, Nick, but

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you only have to settle the bill for a club if you are in debt to that

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club and we are not in debt. We should be in credit. Since we joined

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the European Union, we have given them over ?500 billion of our money.

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They have used that money to invest in all kinds of swanky new buildings

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which have no doubt gone up in value. I think they probably owe us.

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I think this country has got about ?9 billion invested in the European

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investment bank. I think that would more than adequately settle any

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bills, we should be getting that money back and Rachel, if I can come

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back to you as you ask the original question, you are understandably

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worried about your family and the car industry but let me tell you,

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since the Brexit vote, we know that car production in this country is at

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a 17 year high and that has got a lot to do with how manufacturing at

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exporting is booming since the Brexit vote. The future is very

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bright, very positive and if anything, the EU will be looking to

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us and wanting us to bail them out, not the other way around. APPLAUSE

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And let's just stick for a moment with the payment which is the 50

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billion or whatever it is we have to pay supposedly before we start

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negotiating, Keir Starmer, what is the latest view, Labour has spelt

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out its position to some extent. Whichever way you voted in the room,

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we need these negotiations to succeed, we all need them to succeed

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because it is about the future of our country. And the worst possible

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thing that could happen is that we have a big row about a big sum of

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money at the start before we get to the real nitty-gritty of the

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negotiations. I say that we shouldn't be bandying figures

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around. We should agree that there will be principles which will decide

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how much it is once they are agreed, of course we must honour our

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obligations and anyone who says otherwise just needs to think about

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the future. We want a comprehensive free trade agreement with the EU,

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and whether we are going to get that if we are breaching the rules as we

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leave... That is what Michel Barnier saying he wants. The government

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wants free trade agreements with other countries across the world. If

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we are going to be taken seriously in future negotiations, for the

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future of our country, we cannot do that in breach of obligations that

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we have already got. I'm not committing to a figure. I think

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there's a lot to be said for reducing the figure. Obviously, we

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should keep it as low as possible but once we have agreed the

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principal, of course we are a country that honours our obligations

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because if we don't do that, no country in the future is going to

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want to deal with us, the worst outcome for all of us. APPLAUSE

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Let's go on to the negotiations themselves. Matthew Martin, can we

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have your question? Is Theresa May right to say that no

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deal is better than a bad deal ahead Is Theresa May right to say that no

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deal is better than a bad deal before things start, Nick Clegg? I

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actually think no deal is about the worst possible deal you could

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imagine. And no one should sort of soft soap this. If you had no deal,

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the day after no deal, we would fall into a very peculiar economic and

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legal limbo. You wouldn't be able to transport nuclear fuel to the UK.

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You would have huge queues at Dover. We would have major questions about

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how our financial system works because of the legal vacuum into

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which we would topple. I think the way in which people are trying to

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almost make it sound like a sort of cuddly alternative, and dare I say,

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I think there are lots of people on the right-wing of the Conservative

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Party and obviously Ukip you actively want this which is why they

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want a great big spat on money in the early stages of the negotiation

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because that is the perfect alibi to blow the whole thing... Do you not

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think a bad deal would be one that would have to be accepted rather

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than having no deal and just leaving? What I'm saying is that one

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should think a no deal option is a satisfactory one for an economy the

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size of ours. It is a very bad thing to fall off a cliff edge into

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complete legal unknown, given the complexity of the economy. Rachel

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next to you earlier said she was worried about the car industry. The

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car industry will grind to a halt Intel's exports to the rest of the

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European Union if we did not have a deal. -- in terms of export. Alex

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Salmond, what did you make of what Theresa May said?

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It's non-sensical. World Trade Organisation terms, which would mean

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a 30% tariff of Scottish beef and Scotch salmon going into the single

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market, for example, lesser tariffs on manufacturing goods, but a severe

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economic shock. The Treasury estimated it at 50 billion a year as

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a drop in taxation revenues across the UK. We've been arguing of a

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one-off payment of ?60 billion to the EU, that's a big sum, but it's

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nothing like 50 billion a year tax loss, which was the Treasury

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estimate seen by the Cabinet, but not by the rest of us and reported

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in Melanie Phillips' newspaper several months ago. Make no mistake,

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no deal, WTO terms is the worst deal of all. That's exactly why the

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European Union has the upper hand in negotiations. Because whatever David

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tells you, he'll be desperate to avoid that circumstance. In avoiding

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that circumstance, the UK Government will make concessions not only in

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the bills to be paid, but on immigration, and on other matters to

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avoid that going off the cliff edge, as the Prime Minister once described

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it. Her view of a bad deal is better than no deal is simply non-sensical

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and nobody across this continent believe it's. OK. You've had your

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card marked David Davis. Yes, well, firstly before I answer the

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question, let's say this: No deal is not what we're playing for. I know

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that. That's why you'll make concessions. Be fair to the

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questioner, the quotation is "no deal is better than a bad deal". The

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point I want to make very plainly is what we're after is a good deal. The

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response on no deal is better than a bad deal was after if you remember,

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a number of people, in the immediate aftermath, the emotional aftermath

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of the referendum, punishment deals and punishing the United Kingdom, of

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course, no deal is better than that. In terms of what no deal is, I too

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listen to Michel Barnier's comments and Nick repeated them on nuclear

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fuel, I'm afraid that's not right. Overall authority on nuclear fuel is

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international energy authority. What he said was we couldn't import or

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export Newham leer fuel, it won't be -- nuclear fuel, it won't be true.

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The other issues on queues at Dover, we have a huge contingency

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plannerised across -- plan exercised across all these issues. No deal is

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not as easy as some would have you believe, but it's a lot better than

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Nick and Alec would tell you, I'm afraid. How do you know? Because

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we've done work on exactly that. You said to Parliament a week ago you

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haven't worked out how much it's going to be. We have spent nine

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months putting together contingency plans - For queues in Dover? Not

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because we don't expect it to happen but because a Government plans for

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every possible outcome. Can you describe for us - That's what we've

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done. Can you describe what no deal would mean then, since you've kept

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it from us up till now. Nobody's kept anything from anybody. It's not

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what we want, our aim is a comprehensive Free Trade Agreement.

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That's what we're after. That is better than anything else. But no

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deal is not as harmful as you say. Let's hear from one or two members

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of the audience on this point. The woman there in red, yes. You've

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talked about the effects of trade in the event of a no deal, what about

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the reciprocal rights of EU citizens here and British set Zens who live

:19:17.:19:23.

in the EU under a no deal? I did say we'd try to get through some of

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these and we'll come to that later. You in the back. I think a no deal

:19:27.:19:33.

is disaster for anyone. Not only the anxieties of the Remainers confirmed

:19:34.:19:36.

and the expectations of those who want to leave will be denied. No

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deal is not an option. APPLAUSE

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Melanie Phillips, do you think no deal is not an option? I think no

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deal is not a good option, definitely not a good option. But a

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bad deal is worse. I should say that I don't think there's not going to

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be a deal. I don't think there's going to be a no deal. If you look

:19:59.:20:05.

at the remarks by Michel Barnier a few days ago, he went out of his way

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to say he wanted a good deal to be negotiated between the EU and

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Britain and he also said no deal would be a disaster not just for the

:20:15.:20:18.

United Kingdom, but for the European Union. They know how bad for them no

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deal would be and that is our strongest point. It's very important

:20:26.:20:30.

in a negotiation to show that you are determined, that you are not

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frightened, that you are not a supply kant, that you are on the

:20:35.:20:39.

front foot not the back foot. It's vital that this country says we are

:20:40.:20:43.

prepared to walk away and to mean it, because otherwise, the other

:20:44.:20:47.

side will have the upper hand. If we were to walk away, in the last, in

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the worst case scenario, if that should happen, I don't think it's

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going to happen, if that should happen, I don't think it would be

:20:54.:20:57.

the end of the world. It would not be good for all the reasons that

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have been said. But there are many countries, talking about WTO rules,

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the imposition of tariffs, many countries in the world have deals,

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trade deals with the EU under WTO rules and they seem to do rather

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well out of it. Melanie is right and Alec is wrong

:21:17.:21:19.

because every single Foreign Secretary I've talked to in the last

:21:20.:21:23.

several months wants a constructive outcome. They want the deal because

:21:24.:21:28.

they know it's harmful to them. They have 290 billion of exports to us,

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which they want to protect. We'll have a good deal.

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No deal is the worst possible outcome and we shouldn't allow it to

:21:36.:21:40.

be talked up. It's not just the economics and David Davis was asked

:21:41.:21:44.

about the economics by Hilary Benn how much is the cost difference

:21:45.:21:47.

between no deal and a bad deal and didn't have a clue. We have a

:21:48.:21:51.

mantra, no deal is better than a bad deal. You look behind the guard and

:21:52.:21:54.

there's nothing there. There's something more important, there are

:21:55.:21:57.

two versions of the future of the je. Generation out there. One is a

:21:58.:22:02.

crash out without a deal, severing relation was the EU all together.

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The other is to accept we're leaving, not members, but in

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partnership with the EU so we can use collaboration and cooperation to

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meet challenges and to take opportunities. Now the second of

:22:13.:22:15.

those opportunities, the second of those version ises the version of

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history that I want to fight for. I think it's a version whichever way

:22:21.:22:25.

people voted we should fight for. Crashing out, severing our relations

:22:26.:22:28.

with the EU would be a terrible thing to do and one last thing on

:22:29.:22:32.

the wider issue, because it's not just economics, I was five years as

:22:33.:22:37.

Director of Public Prosecutions. We were involved in serious criminal

:22:38.:22:42.

investigations across Europe, be it terrorism, sexual exploitation etc,

:22:43.:22:45.

that's happening all of the time. Criminal justice tools are used all

:22:46.:22:50.

the time. If we crash out without a deal, midnight on day whichever, we

:22:51.:22:56.

lose all that. Rubbish. We will lose that because we won't be in an

:22:57.:23:00.

agreement Before the referendum we had project fear and that's a

:23:01.:23:05.

trnction of project fear, all that high Welsh Cuply about cliff edges,

:23:06.:23:08.

crashing out, severing our relationships with the European

:23:09.:23:11.

Union. In case you haven't noticed, there are only 27 members of the

:23:12.:23:15.

European Union. And other countries seem to have very good relationships

:23:16.:23:20.

with the European Union even though they're not tied into a political

:23:21.:23:26.

union. Joint prosecutions we are using - Let's be serious here. Are

:23:27.:23:31.

you saying as a former Director of Public Prosecutions a responsible

:23:32.:23:33.

position that you held - We used them all the time. Are you saying

:23:34.:23:36.

because we leave the European Union we are not going to - we are going

:23:37.:23:41.

to stop sharing information about cross-border crime, about terrorism,

:23:42.:23:44.

that is utter nonsense. APPLAUSE

:23:45.:23:54.

Suzanne Evans, where do you stand on what's going to happen on Wednesday?

:23:55.:23:59.

Article 50? What Melanie said is right. We want to have a deal. I

:24:00.:24:03.

think we will get a deal. If ultimately if push comes to shove,

:24:04.:24:07.

if that deal doesn't involve what the British people voted for, which

:24:08.:24:11.

is to take back full control of our legal system from the European

:24:12.:24:15.

courts, to have full border control when it comes to immigration, to get

:24:16.:24:20.

our fishing waters back, then if that deal doesn't actually grant us

:24:21.:24:25.

all those things, and others that are prioritised and Theresa May and

:24:26.:24:29.

David have spelled out those priorities, which align with what

:24:30.:24:33.

Ukip wants to some extent, if we don't get those things, no deal

:24:34.:24:37.

would be beneficial. I want to hear from members of the audience, who've

:24:38.:24:41.

had their hands up patiently. The man there, yes, Sir, who've been

:24:42.:24:43.

waving since the beginning of the programme. I want to take issue with

:24:44.:24:47.

the belief that the EU have the upper hand in this. Bearing in mind

:24:48.:24:52.

that we are a huge export market for most of the EU countries,

:24:53.:24:55.

particularly Germany, France and Spain where there are a lot of

:24:56.:25:00.

expats. Big businesses in their countries will be putting pressure

:25:01.:25:03.

on their governments to make sure that they do a satisfactory deal

:25:04.:25:09.

with us to stop us going to India, Australia, the USA. Their big

:25:10.:25:12.

businesses will want to keep the business they do with us.

:25:13.:25:19.

APPLAUSE Brief answer, Nick. Unlike everybody

:25:20.:25:25.

on the panel, I used to work in trade negotiations. Self-confidence

:25:26.:25:28.

and talking tough everybody does that at the beginning. You need to

:25:29.:25:32.

be realistic. This petulant foot stamping and saying we can do you

:25:33.:25:35.

harm if we stalk off isn't impressing anyone elsewhere in

:25:36.:25:39.

Europe. The facts, I'm afraid, suggest that it isn't as

:25:40.:25:42.

straightforward as Melanie and David have suggested. 44% of exports go to

:25:43.:25:49.

the EU. Only 8% of their exports come this way. 13% of our GDP is

:25:50.:25:55.

down to exports to the EU. Only 3% of their GDP. What would you do? You

:25:56.:25:59.

know how the British people voted. What would you do if you were Prime

:26:00.:26:07.

Minister, or even - I would have not, I would have sought to try and

:26:08.:26:11.

bridge the differences between what is a very, very evenly divided

:26:12.:26:15.

population on this issue in the United Kingdom and particularly huge

:26:16.:26:17.

differences of attitude between the old and the young. I would have

:26:18.:26:24.

tried to do that by yes, leaving the European Union, because that's what

:26:25.:26:28.

the British people said, but not in a hard Brexit way, quitting the sing

:26:29.:26:33.

the market and the customs unit. -- union.

:26:34.:26:36.

APPLAUSE The man behind you. Yeah you. Keir

:26:37.:26:44.

accuses David of not doing his home work with regards to numbers. So

:26:45.:26:48.

obviously you have, so you know how bad it's going to be and you've done

:26:49.:26:53.

the numbers. There have been a number of reports that have set out

:26:54.:26:58.

what the economic cost is. But as a say, it's not just the economic

:26:59.:27:03.

cost. What is the economic cost? Precisely how many of the economic

:27:04.:27:09.

forecasts about Brexit have been right so far? How many? None.

:27:10.:27:12.

APPLAUSE You make your point. What's your

:27:13.:27:17.

point? My point is that it's project fear again. It's just anti-news.

:27:18.:27:21.

There is nothing coming from your side that says this is the cost.

:27:22.:27:25.

What is the cost? We are going into - What is the cost? We are going

:27:26.:27:29.

into the most important negotiations since the Second World War. Every

:27:30.:27:33.

time a reasonable question is asked it's dismissed as unreasonable

:27:34.:27:38.

denial. Every time a challenge is made it's branded frustrating the

:27:39.:27:42.

progress. It's not healthy in a democracy if we want the right

:27:43.:27:45.

outcome for our cub tri. There has to be challenge.

:27:46.:27:50.

APPLAUSE As Gordon Brown once said, I agree

:27:51.:27:53.

with Nick. I never thought I'd say it. I'm saying it now because we

:27:54.:28:01.

know what the Treasury forecast was before Brexit. Over a 15-year

:28:02.:28:07.

period, not the Apocalypse now that George Osborne said in project fear,

:28:08.:28:11.

but over a period of time. If you're out of the single market, it was 9.

:28:12.:28:17.

5% loss of GDP and about two million jobs, if that was the situation. The

:28:18.:28:22.

same economists are in the same treasury, they haven't sacked any of

:28:23.:28:25.

them. You've got to distinguish between the presentation of George

:28:26.:28:31.

Osborne who wanted to scare everybody to bejesus like he did in

:28:32.:28:34.

Scotland in 2014, and the reality behind it, which is what happens if

:28:35.:28:39.

you go out a major trading block. Right Suzanne, there are 170

:28:40.:28:42.

countries in this world who are not part of the European Union, but just

:28:43.:28:47.

about every single one of them is part of a trading block. So we'll be

:28:48.:28:52.

like Singapore. Singapore is a small country in a large trading block

:28:53.:28:59.

called ASIAN. If you have a hard Brexit, you go out of your trading

:29:00.:29:04.

block before you're back into any other. That's where the loss comes

:29:05.:29:08.

in. I don't think there'll be no deal. David will have to make so

:29:09.:29:11.

many concessions that the people looking for Brexit are going to be

:29:12.:29:19.

really, really disappointed. The woman there, yes, you.

:29:20.:29:23.

Throughout the campaign as Suzanne Evans just said, apparently a big

:29:24.:29:29.

portion of the referendum was about taking back ownership of our

:29:30.:29:33.

Parliamentary democracy. What did the panel made of Suzanne Evans'

:29:34.:29:40.

calls for High Court judges to be sacked when the judgment was handed

:29:41.:29:46.

down? It was disgraceful and the reaction, you did say that judges

:29:47.:29:50.

ought to be more controlled. Democratic scrutiny. The whole point

:29:51.:29:55.

of judges is that they independently decide cases and the backlash

:29:56.:29:58.

against the judges when they made the judgment in the Article 50 case

:29:59.:30:01.

should have been consent to everybody across the country, again,

:30:02.:30:06.

char way we voted. We have some of the best judges in the world making

:30:07.:30:10.

decisions independently. We should Cherish that. Let's stick with trade

:30:11.:30:14.

at the moment. You Sir In the grey there. All this talk about deal

:30:15.:30:21.

making, I would like to ask what's happened to diplomacy.

:30:22.:30:29.

I think there is a moral side to what's going on, whatever the deal

:30:30.:30:33.

is, I think that the guiding principle for both sides, that both

:30:34.:30:37.

sides are going to do the right thing.

:30:38.:30:42.

I agree with that and I think that is a very good point, sir. Nick was

:30:43.:30:49.

right, if you read all of's speech, not just the headlines picked out by

:30:50.:30:53.

the newspaper, a lot of it was incredible constructive. We want to

:30:54.:30:56.

see a deal on both sides and the same thing is being said around

:30:57.:31:00.

Europe. That is why in a way, this fear of this no deal is misplaced

:31:01.:31:05.

because there will be a deal because everybody wants a deal and that is

:31:06.:31:10.

where diplomacy comes in, finding the bridge. People often think

:31:11.:31:13.

negotiation is about some kind of Matt Jones stand-off. It is not, it

:31:14.:31:17.

is about finding the best outcome for everyone and the best outcome

:31:18.:31:20.

for everybody is one that preserves their market here is one of our

:31:21.:31:24.

market there. Where you have got your work cut out is that in almost

:31:25.:31:28.

all trade negotiations I have ever been part of, the starting point is

:31:29.:31:33.

that the parties on either side of the table want more trade as a

:31:34.:31:35.

conclusion of the negotiation than they had before. This is the first

:31:36.:31:40.

major trade negotiation I've ever encountered where the outcome will,

:31:41.:31:44.

for sure, we don't know how much, be less trade because the UK is pulling

:31:45.:31:48.

out of the customs union. You cannot bowl... Let me explain why. The

:31:49.:31:57.

single market... Let me explain, the single market created by Margaret

:31:58.:32:00.

Thatcher has very little to do with tariffs and levies, it is a

:32:01.:32:04.

marketplace of rules. You can't, it is logically impossible to do what

:32:05.:32:07.

David and Theresa May and the rest of the government are saying, that

:32:08.:32:11.

they want frictionless access to the single market and in the same

:32:12.:32:14.

breath, that they won't abide by the rulings of the market. It is

:32:15.:32:19.

impossible. Come on, Nick you know is. You want to comment on that? We

:32:20.:32:28.

have a worldwide market which is queueing up to do deals with us.

:32:29.:32:33.

Absolutely, yes. What you said regarding our exports to Europe will

:32:34.:32:41.

not quantify our exports and our imports with the rest of the world.

:32:42.:32:45.

Australia, New Zealand, Canada are on our side. If we pick up China and

:32:46.:32:52.

India, we don't really need Europe. They need us! OK, David Davis, you

:32:53.:32:58.

said interestingly that whatever you get, comprehensive free trade, you

:32:59.:33:03.

want to deliver the exact same benefits as we have now, is that

:33:04.:33:08.

your view, that it is a zero-sum game? No, no. On contrary, one of

:33:09.:33:13.

the problems that happens when democracies negotiate is that the

:33:14.:33:18.

politicians are afraid of raising expectations. Keir Starmer and Nick

:33:19.:33:23.

were talking about this, raising expectations. The truth is, we are

:33:24.:33:27.

negotiating for the future of the country and therefore, we want to

:33:28.:33:30.

raise the expectations as much as we possibly can. We want to aim as high

:33:31.:33:36.

as we possibly can. I make no apology for being ambitious about

:33:37.:33:39.

what we achieved. We are aiming to get the best possible deal with

:33:40.:33:43.

Europe and the best possible deal with the rest of the world. That is

:33:44.:33:50.

what this country needs. APPLAUSE You, sir, over there, with

:33:51.:33:56.

spectacles. We hear a lot of talk about team fear but all we are

:33:57.:34:00.

hearing from the Leaves side is cloud cuckoo land. You expect us to

:34:01.:34:07.

walk away from the EU, pay no money but get unrestricted access to the

:34:08.:34:10.

single market. If that is going to be the case, why is anyone else in

:34:11.:34:15.

the EU? Surely they will walk away then have unrestricted access. What

:34:16.:34:19.

do you think David Davis you do? Own up and say that is going to hurt us

:34:20.:34:24.

and Europe, no one is going to come out a winner, Europe will hurt

:34:25.:34:27.

because we are not part of it and we are going to hurt because we are not

:34:28.:34:30.

in Europe. I personally work in the car industry. I'm worried that if we

:34:31.:34:36.

walk out with no deal, suddenly, 10% tariffs slapped on every car coming

:34:37.:34:41.

out of this country. What is to stop the manufacturers moving production

:34:42.:34:44.

abroad? We already have to fight for every model we build in this

:34:45.:34:48.

country. We are just going to give that business away if we have no

:34:49.:34:51.

deal. If you take that out of the West Midlands, you will finish this

:34:52.:34:56.

economy. APPLAUSE What do you say to that? Google,

:34:57.:35:05.

Facebook, WhatsApp, Toyota, LTC, all of those companies, GSK, are putting

:35:06.:35:11.

more money into Britain this year. 16 billion since Brexit. Huge sums

:35:12.:35:15.

of money. The head of Peugeot, in your industry, says whatever

:35:16.:35:19.

happens, Britain will be a good place to invest whether it is with

:35:20.:35:24.

transnational supply networks or bringing supply networks into

:35:25.:35:26.

Britain, creating more jobs and investment. I'm afraid you are not

:35:27.:35:31.

right to be so pessimistic. The options are there. The rest of the

:35:32.:35:35.

world is there. 60% of our trade almost is now with the rest of the

:35:36.:35:40.

world. We have huge... Admit to the audience that you can't make up

:35:41.:35:44.

through negotiations with far-flung countries the much larger trade

:35:45.:35:47.

relationships we have with our neighbours. There's a reason why

:35:48.:35:50.

geography still matters in trade. We trade more with Ireland than we do

:35:51.:35:54.

with China, twice as much with Belgium than India, three times as

:35:55.:35:58.

much with Sweden than Brazil. There's a reason because they are

:35:59.:36:01.

nearby. This illusion that somehow we can make up for what we lose on

:36:02.:36:05.

our own doorstep by having new trade deals in far-flung places...

:36:06.:36:08.

APPLAUSE Keir Starmer. David rattles off a

:36:09.:36:17.

list of companies that have invested and that is a good thing, that is a

:36:18.:36:23.

good thing. And they pay their taxes. But we cannot be complacent

:36:24.:36:26.

about the risks to other companies. I've been going around the UK,

:36:27.:36:30.

talking to hundreds of businesses and they are really concerned about

:36:31.:36:33.

tariffs, about customs duties. So you think the man in the motor

:36:34.:36:38.

industry out there is right? Yes, the motor industry in particular and

:36:39.:36:42.

that is why the exact same benefits of the single market is one of the

:36:43.:36:45.

tests the Labour Party have set out for the deal, and it's really

:36:46.:36:54.

important. David Davis said the packaging hopes to negotiate will

:36:55.:36:56.

deliver the exact same benefits. We need to hold into that because this

:36:57.:36:58.

is not about a discussion tonight, this is about people's jobs, their

:36:59.:37:00.

future, the businesses they are working in. It is really serious

:37:01.:37:04.

stuff, exact same benefits, hold the government to account on this

:37:05.:37:06.

because it really matters to businesses and people who work in

:37:07.:37:11.

those businesses across our country. As a matter of interest, how can

:37:12.:37:14.

Glade hold the government to account seeing as the Tories have a majority

:37:15.:37:19.

and Labour seems divided on these issues? APPLAUSE

:37:20.:37:23.

One of the things... I'm glad you have raised that because what we

:37:24.:37:27.

have been doing in the last three months... Is trying out a number of

:37:28.:37:33.

different positions? LAUGHTER Three things, getting a white paper

:37:34.:37:38.

out of the government which they did not want to publish, no running

:37:39.:37:41.

commentary was the starting position, getting them to report

:37:42.:37:44.

back regularly so we know the direction of travel, and now they

:37:45.:37:48.

have committed to that, and having a vote in two years' time on the deal

:37:49.:37:52.

before designed by the European Parliament. Actually, Labour has

:37:53.:37:55.

achieved all of those things that matters because otherwise we have no

:37:56.:38:00.

grip and that is why went David Davis says he's going to get the

:38:01.:38:03.

exact same benefits, we will judge that at the end of the exercise. It

:38:04.:38:07.

might be a bit boring and process data more what I've been up to a

:38:08.:38:10.

nasty months on behalf of the Labour Party and others in opposition but

:38:11.:38:13.

actually, it really matters and the government did not want to give it,

:38:14.:38:16.

no running commentary, can't possibly have a vote on the final

:38:17.:38:18.

deal because it will undermine everything but now they have

:38:19.:38:24.

conceded all that, we've got it and that should please everybody because

:38:25.:38:26.

Parliament needs to be involved in this process. APPLAUSE

:38:27.:38:29.

We will talk about that a bit more later. Let's go on to another key

:38:30.:38:31.

topic. Will there be a cap on the number

:38:32.:38:35.

of EU nationals allowed in the UK, once the Brexit negotiations

:38:36.:38:38.

have been concluded? A cap on the number of EU National

:38:39.:38:47.

is allowed into the UK once the negotiations have been concluded.

:38:48.:38:49.

Suzanne Evans, what would you like to see what do you think will

:38:50.:38:54.

happen? I think everybody, well, not everybody but the vast majority of

:38:55.:38:58.

people in this country, whatever they voted on every single poll ever

:38:59.:39:02.

done shows around 70% in this country regularly think immigration

:39:03.:39:06.

is too high. I suspect we could have a long debate about how high it

:39:07.:39:10.

should be, or how low it should be. I think we need to have a level of

:39:11.:39:15.

immigration to this country which is sustainable, so we can plan for

:39:16.:39:18.

population growth accordingly, so we can make sure there are school

:39:19.:39:22.

places available, we can make sure the NHS isn't overstretched, we can

:39:23.:39:27.

cope with new migrants coming to the country. At the moment, we have a

:39:28.:39:32.

situation where the number of EU migrants coming to Britain is

:39:33.:39:35.

approximately the size of Newcastle, a city of that size, every year

:39:36.:39:40.

which is clearly not sustainable. I would be very interested to hear

:39:41.:39:45.

what sort of immigration policy the government decide... Do you want to

:39:46.:39:48.

see a cap, is the question, and actual cap on the number from the

:39:49.:39:55.

EU? A cap is tricky, isn't it? Why? It allows for no flexibility and at

:39:56.:39:59.

the moment, a lot of companies struggle in the country because they

:40:00.:40:02.

have a cap on the number of people they can bring in from outside the

:40:03.:40:06.

European Union. Do you want to see? What I want to see is a sensible

:40:07.:40:11.

immigration system which actually treats everybody around the world

:40:12.:40:15.

equally and one of the reasons I don't like the current immigration

:40:16.:40:19.

policy that we have is because it gives priority to EU nationals and I

:40:20.:40:23.

think that is grossly unfair. I think we should be taking people who

:40:24.:40:27.

can benefit this country and be self-supporting, which I think is

:40:28.:40:31.

very important as well, personally I think people should have a job to

:40:32.:40:34.

come to when they come here. They should not be allowed to come if

:40:35.:40:37.

they don't have a job to come to or they can't support themselves and

:40:38.:40:40.

their families. But, you know, nobody in the Leave campaign ever

:40:41.:40:44.

said we wanted to stop immigration so let me put those lights out.

:40:45.:40:49.

LAUGHTER Of course, the reason Ukip were

:40:50.:40:53.

telling people they wanted to control immigration from the EU was

:40:54.:40:56.

to have more people from outside the EU, if we listen to what we are

:40:57.:41:02.

hearing tonight. We did say that, Alex! This is so unfair. This was a

:41:03.:41:10.

secret plot by Ukip to get more people immigrating to this country

:41:11.:41:12.

from outside the European Union. APPLAUSE

:41:13.:41:19.

Of course, that is the fallacy behind all of this. The 165,000

:41:20.:41:23.

people from outwith the European Union who came into this country,

:41:24.:41:28.

Theresa May was Home Secretary for all of these years, a hardline Home

:41:29.:41:33.

Secretary and she didn't stop that. That is right. There was no

:41:34.:41:38.

systematic attempt to stop that all the attempt failed. David asked a

:41:39.:41:41.

few minutes ago, what should we do now? You know the first thing we

:41:42.:41:45.

should do to try to improve the tenor of these negotiations? We said

:41:46.:41:48.

the 3 million of our fellow citizens from the European Union work among

:41:49.:41:53.

last, do valuable things across our public services, pay their taxes,

:41:54.:41:57.

that they are welcome, should not be used as bargaining chips. We should

:41:58.:42:01.

take a unilateral move to try to improve the tenor of negotiations

:42:02.:42:05.

and say to these people, as they are entitled to hear, that they are

:42:06.:42:08.

welcome in this country and we appreciate everything they have done

:42:09.:42:09.

for us. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE What I would say... David Davis,

:42:10.:42:30.

sorry, no. No, that was in our... Will you wait your turn? Alexander's

:42:31.:42:35.

just accused me so I would like to reply. We can't share it around six

:42:36.:42:40.

people. It wasn't in the SNP manifesto but it was in hours. David

:42:41.:42:44.

Davis, the question is, will there be a cap on the number of EU

:42:45.:42:49.

nationals? I agree with Alex about one thing and that is European Union

:42:50.:42:53.

citizens in the UK, doing a good job, supporting the NHS, social

:42:54.:42:56.

welfare, all sorts of industries, are very important should be made to

:42:57.:43:01.

feel welcome, should not be made to feel unwelcome, the other side of

:43:02.:43:06.

that, which is unfortunate. So what about what Alec suggests, the first

:43:07.:43:09.

thing should be to say they can stay? I will come to that in a

:43:10.:43:13.

second, well, let me deal with it now. There are about 4 million, I

:43:14.:43:20.

think, Michel Barnier referred to it, about 4 million people we have

:43:21.:43:23.

to worry about in this context and we have to be generous to and we

:43:24.:43:27.

have to make sure that their rights are entrenched. 3 million of them

:43:28.:43:31.

are European citizens here and about 1 million are British citizens

:43:32.:43:35.

abroad. We don't want to make any of them bargaining chips and by

:43:36.:43:39.

treating them together, no one is treated as a bargaining chip. Again

:43:40.:43:42.

in terms of talking to the diplomacy, in terms of talking to

:43:43.:43:47.

the Foreign secretaries and prime ministers in the rest of Europe,

:43:48.:43:50.

almost every single one of them raised it as the first issue, they

:43:51.:43:53.

agreed the approach we are taking was right, they agreed that we

:43:54.:43:56.

should try and resolve this as fast as possible and I should say that

:43:57.:44:02.

Theresa May did try to get it resolved in December but could not

:44:03.:44:06.

do so but we will resolve it pretty quickly, certainly, the first thing

:44:07.:44:10.

on the batting order of the negotiation when it starts stop the

:44:11.:44:16.

man in the blue shirt, there. How on earth can use it therein say that

:44:17.:44:19.

when the Conservative Party voted down the right to remain? This was

:44:20.:44:25.

an amendment to the Article 50 Bill we laid which was to say to the

:44:26.:44:28.

government unilaterally, give protection to those that are in this

:44:29.:44:32.

country, EU nationals, who are not just contributing to our society but

:44:33.:44:35.

they are our society and the government voted that down and then

:44:36.:44:40.

they voted down the amendment when they came back from the House of

:44:41.:44:44.

Lords. I accept there are, of course, UK nationals across Europe

:44:45.:44:46.

and we need to be concerned about them as well. We have a legal

:44:47.:44:51.

responsibility for them. I completely accept that, of course

:44:52.:44:54.

but they are being used as bargaining chips because what David

:44:55.:44:57.

is saying is, we will hold this group of people, those that are

:44:58.:45:01.

here, so we can secure a better deal for someone else. That is to bargain

:45:02.:45:07.

with groups of people, whether you like it or not. I accept the Prime

:45:08.:45:10.

Minister tried to get this sorted. She did not succeed but she should

:45:11.:45:13.

have acted unilaterally. I think had she done so, she would have set a

:45:14.:45:18.

very good tone for the beginning of the negotiations and got us off to a

:45:19.:45:22.

good start. Coming back to the question, will there be a cap on the

:45:23.:45:23.

number of EU nationals? The first issue is to bring this

:45:24.:45:32.

back under the control of the UK Government and Parliament, to bring

:45:33.:45:36.

migration under control. I don't think most people oppose migration.

:45:37.:45:40.

I think most people are in favour of migration, so long as it's managed.

:45:41.:45:44.

The point is it will need to be managed. My job is to bring the job

:45:45.:45:48.

back and it's for the Home Secretary to decide the policy. I cannot

:45:49.:45:50.

imagine that the policy will be anything other than that which is in

:45:51.:45:53.

the national interest, which means that from time to time, we'll need

:45:54.:45:59.

more and from time to time we'll need less migrants. That will be in

:46:00.:46:02.

everybody's interest, the migrants and the citizens of the United

:46:03.:46:09.

Kingdom. Sorry, just before we move on, sometimes it will be more and

:46:10.:46:15.

sometimes less, more than now? Do you mean any number? What it will be

:46:16.:46:19.

is whatever the Government judges to be sustainable. The tens of

:46:20.:46:25.

thousands that the Tory Party has gone on about for a long time no

:46:26.:46:28.

long applies? I think we will get there. We have to manage this

:46:29.:46:33.

properly. You have industries dependent on migrants, social

:46:34.:46:35.

welfare, the National Health Service. Let's take the National

:46:36.:46:39.

Health Service, the registrations from Europe have dropped 75% since

:46:40.:46:44.

Brexit. In a full year that will mean there will be 7,000 less

:46:45.:46:47.

qualified nurses from elsewhere in the European Union working in our

:46:48.:46:51.

National Health Service. I had a look at the Queen Elizabeth Hospital

:46:52.:46:55.

A figures today - What do you attribute this to? They've dropped

:46:56.:47:01.

by 75% because in the post-Brexit atmosphere people cannot be secure

:47:02.:47:04.

about their position in this country. When they're heard what

:47:05.:47:08.

David Davis has just said they will be. David is the acceptable face of

:47:09.:47:12.

the Cabinet. He's not the one, it was Liam Fox who said people were to

:47:13.:47:16.

be cards to be played, I quote him exactly. David wouldn't argue that.

:47:17.:47:22.

But the reality is that our fellow citizens feel uncertain and the

:47:23.:47:26.

reality is that nurse registrations have dropped by 75%. I do feel some

:47:27.:47:30.

of the these 7,000 missing European Union nurses would come in very

:47:31.:47:35.

handy in the Accident Emergency ward at Queen Elizabeth Hospital in

:47:36.:47:38.

Birmingham right now. I'll come to you in a moment, Nick. Melanie

:47:39.:47:44.

Phillips. Well, perhaps it's a bit of a diversion to talk specifically

:47:45.:47:47.

about the Health Service, but since it's been raised, there is clearly a

:47:48.:47:52.

major crisis of nursing in the, nurse numbers in the Health Service.

:47:53.:47:57.

That crisis has been caused by the very short sighted policies, boom

:47:58.:48:01.

and bust policies of the way the NHS is run. Some years ago, when it got

:48:02.:48:06.

into difficulties, it cut nurse training. It cut nurse training for

:48:07.:48:10.

British nurses. Then there was a panic because they didn't have

:48:11.:48:14.

enough nurses. So they went abroad. That's why so many foreign-born

:48:15.:48:18.

nurses were brought in, many of them paid less than British nurses. The

:48:19.:48:22.

problem with the nursing situation is what's happening here, not the

:48:23.:48:27.

problem - it's not specifically - the foundation of the problem does

:48:28.:48:32.

not lie in Europe. As far as a cap is concerned, I can't see any reason

:48:33.:48:37.

why European Union nationals should be capped specifically. We have a

:48:38.:48:41.

problem of mass immigration in this country. We have too many people for

:48:42.:48:46.

the public services to sustain that number of people. 50% to 60% of

:48:47.:48:50.

those people are coming from the European Union. We have to deal with

:48:51.:48:53.

the problem of immigration. We can only do that if we have control over

:48:54.:48:57.

our immigration policy. That is the most crucial thing of all. Given

:48:58.:49:03.

that, once we have control of our immigration policy we should bring

:49:04.:49:07.

in people for the needs of the country in the public, skilled

:49:08.:49:11.

workers from the EU certainly, we should be deciding that and

:49:12.:49:14.

hopefully we will. Let me hear from one or two other people. The man

:49:15.:49:22.

there. Then the person who was waving vaguely in the middle there.

:49:23.:49:28.

Sorry the man in the red tie behind you. I work in the NHS, across the

:49:29.:49:34.

NHS about 5% of all clinical posts are currently unfilled. 5% of all

:49:35.:49:38.

NHS nurses are from the EU and about 10% of doctors. Rather than talk

:49:39.:49:42.

about a cap on immigration, why don't we actually talk about how we

:49:43.:49:47.

can entice these people to stay? Why can't the Government do the decent

:49:48.:49:51.

people and tell those people who are worried about their future and their

:49:52.:49:54.

security and tell them they have a right to stay? You have enough to

:49:55.:49:59.

worry in your negotiations, this is a simple thing you could do up front

:50:00.:50:04.

before your negotiation, why can't you just do the decent thing and do

:50:05.:50:07.

that? APPLAUSE

:50:08.:50:19.

This issue will be resolved as the first issue in the negotiation.

:50:20.:50:26.

Let's be clear, the other heads of government, the Foreign Secretary,

:50:27.:50:30.

who I've spoken to in the last few months, none have said we shouldn't

:50:31.:50:34.

worry and indeed treat the status of British citizens the same. Indeed

:50:35.:50:37.

the Polish Prime Minister said in public in Britain that they are the

:50:38.:50:41.

same issue, not separate. We is said over and over again and I've said

:50:42.:50:44.

so, in Parliament, over and over again in responses to questions from

:50:45.:50:50.

Keir and many others and Alec and others that we view this as a moral

:50:51.:50:54.

responsibility. I view this as a moral responsibility. People should

:50:55.:51:00.

not worry about this. Well, they do. They should not. If I'm asked to

:51:01.:51:04.

make a response to the public, that's what I'm doing. They should

:51:05.:51:08.

not worry about this. Their position will be underwritten, will be - not

:51:09.:51:13.

just their residency position, welfare, pensions, all of that is

:51:14.:51:17.

what we're aiming to solve and that's what we're going to solve. Do

:51:18.:51:20.

you feel reassured by what David Davis has said? I think there's a

:51:21.:51:25.

lot of people who've been only here a few years and they're in a

:51:26.:51:29.

different position to myself. I work in a department where about 20% of

:51:30.:51:34.

our nurses are from the EU. I think the area that you are dreaming about

:51:35.:51:39.

in the future that you have a global trade market with also different

:51:40.:51:42.

countries is a reality in health care. In health care is a biassed

:51:43.:51:47.

market, people will go where their skills are needed. If people feel

:51:48.:51:51.

they are insecure here they will go elsewhere. I don't think you have

:51:52.:51:54.

much time to sort this issue out. You don't feel more secure because

:51:55.:51:58.

of what David Davis has said? No. Are you from the EU? Yes, I am.

:51:59.:52:02.

Where are you from? Germany. Thank you.

:52:03.:52:06.

The man up there. How long have you been here, by the way, I should have

:52:07.:52:10.

said? This May, it will be 20 years. Oh, well you have residency rights

:52:11.:52:14.

and indeed you can be a citizen if you want. I could be, but the

:52:15.:52:18.

question of citizens isn't just decided in the head, it's also in

:52:19.:52:22.

the heart. Immigration is just one side of the coin. We all, as a

:52:23.:52:26.

country, agree that immigration is good. That's what we're hearing

:52:27.:52:30.

continuously. But what the Government needs to do is think

:52:31.:52:33.

about what is the underlying problem. The underlying problem is

:52:34.:52:38.

the services, the pressure that uncontrolled immigration brings.

:52:39.:52:41.

What I would like to hear from the Government is what they're doing as

:52:42.:52:45.

well as getting control of immigration and the borders, what

:52:46.:52:50.

they're doing to improve the services, like hospitals, other

:52:51.:52:52.

public services, infrastructure. Nick Clegg. I struggle to be wholly

:52:53.:52:58.

objective about this because I'm married to a Spanish lady and my mum

:52:59.:53:01.

is Dutch. She's lived here for over half a century. She's now in her

:53:02.:53:07.

80s. She used to be a teacher. She's raised four children here and paid

:53:08.:53:11.

taxes. I think as her son, it's scandalous that an elderly lady in

:53:12.:53:15.

her 80s is made to feel so unsure about her own status in a country

:53:16.:53:19.

which she loves and has been loyal to for decades and had no say, at

:53:20.:53:22.

all, about what happened to the future of her country and that of

:53:23.:53:24.

her kids. Perhaps I can't be objective. But the thing I really

:53:25.:53:29.

abhor is the dishonesty of this debate. Remember what Nigel Farage

:53:30.:53:34.

did during the referendum, willfully confusing the refugee crisis in the

:53:35.:53:38.

Mediterranean with Brexit, when the two are separate. Look at the wilful

:53:39.:53:44.

distortion of statistics including students, when clearly they

:53:45.:53:47.

shouldn't count much the worst this is this, for the last 40 yoorz more

:53:48.:53:50.

people have come into this country from outside the European Union than

:53:51.:53:54.

from the European Union. So somehow blaming it all on German workers in

:53:55.:53:58.

the NHS or my mum or my wife is ridiculous. In fact, since 2000, in

:53:59.:54:03.

terms of the total net migration into this country, only a quarter is

:54:04.:54:07.

accounted for the European Union. So it is fundamentally dishonest to

:54:08.:54:12.

claim that this problem and clearly many people do regard it as a

:54:13.:54:16.

problem, can be solved by clamping down on French lawyers, German

:54:17.:54:20.

engineers and Spanish nurses. I just think it's time we have a more

:54:21.:54:25.

honest debate. APPLAUSE

:54:26.:54:30.

Yes. Brief comment from you. I would, if you like, to say that I

:54:31.:54:36.

feel the fact is we live in a liberal market economy that prop

:54:37.:54:39.

gait a hire and fire culture. Leaving the EU and ridding ourselves

:54:40.:54:42.

of protected citizens that have human rights to bring in cheap

:54:43.:54:46.

labour from countries that do not have protected human rights is

:54:47.:54:50.

really what is the discussion here. All right, we've heard a number of

:54:51.:54:53.

voices like that. I'd like to hear from somebody who approves of

:54:54.:54:57.

restrictions on immigration. You do, ma'am. Yes? The panel all seem to

:54:58.:55:09.

think that what they call the EU nationals all come to say

:55:10.:55:14.

professionals mainly, you forget that those coming in during the

:55:15.:55:18.

summer, those EU people to come and being admitted in hospitals and they

:55:19.:55:22.

don't pay a bill for their treatment. They go back. This is why

:55:23.:55:25.

the National Health Service went down. The bill is enormous. You Sir,

:55:26.:55:33.

behind. The question I get is the Government has been trying to get an

:55:34.:55:36.

agreement for a while, we never see the European Union or the commission

:55:37.:55:40.

trying to come forward and do this. It seems to be us trying to get athe

:55:41.:55:45.

agreement, but the other countries seem to not want to comply. Why do

:55:46.:55:49.

you think that is? It's politically difficult then for our parties, the

:55:50.:55:53.

longer they leave it. They could easily come forward tomorrow and say

:55:54.:55:57.

we agree, we'll sign On Tour both sides. It seems to be us that's

:55:58.:56:01.

trying and not them. You think there's ill will towards Britain?

:56:02.:56:05.

Absolutely. At this stage about the negotiations? Yeah. Anybody else

:56:06.:56:08.

feel strongly about that issue of the way that immigration is being

:56:09.:56:16.

handled? I go to you, yes. The man here in the second row. I think it's

:56:17.:56:21.

difficult because if we're going to have a cap, we almost need the help

:56:22.:56:27.

of the EU to run with that. For example, the French, they're making

:56:28.:56:30.

it pretty easy for people to come over here. We almost need the help

:56:31.:56:35.

of those guys. On a separate matter, I actually run an international

:56:36.:56:39.

business and the problem that we've got is a lot of these companies are

:56:40.:56:43.

quite scared about a cap because we have a massive skills shortage in

:56:44.:56:47.

the UK and getting the people over here is what these companies need.

:56:48.:56:51.

If big companies can't attract talent from abroad, they'll end up

:56:52.:56:55.

leaving. It's a really difficult issue because there's two sides to

:56:56.:56:57.

it. Can I come in on that point? It's

:56:58.:57:01.

really important. When I did the Shadow immigration role, I went

:57:02.:57:07.

round the country talking to communities and to businesses about

:57:08.:57:11.

immigration. Wherever I talked to businesses, I say to them - what's

:57:12.:57:15.

the thing that's going to inhibit your success over the next three to

:57:16.:57:19.

five years? Wherever I went in the you country, including here,

:57:20.:57:22.

whatever the size of the business, and whatever the type of the

:57:23.:57:26.

business, they all said skills and a lot of the recruitment they were

:57:27.:57:31.

doing that has an effect on the numbers was because they couldn't

:57:32.:57:36.

get the skills here. I started a discussion about immigration, ended

:57:37.:57:38.

with a discussion about skills. That is a huge political failure that we

:57:39.:57:44.

in this country don't have a way of making sure that the skills we need

:57:45.:57:48.

are available in the UK. I don't want to stop companies recruiting

:57:49.:57:51.

from other countries for the skills they need, of course. But they

:57:52.:57:56.

shouldn't be required to do so because of the political veilure to

:57:57.:58:00.

have a skills agenda in this country. You Sir In red. I agree

:58:01.:58:06.

with Nick, it should be an honest debate, but not a scaremongering

:58:07.:58:11.

debate. None of us know it would have carried on for years and years,

:58:12.:58:14.

what the numbers would have been. Services, you know, all it is, all

:58:15.:58:19.

we're saying is just control on who can come in and who can't. Not you

:58:20.:58:23.

can't come in. You can't come in. It's just a debate and a control.

:58:24.:58:27.

Not just, you know, there's lots of scaremongering. People saying people

:58:28.:58:32.

can't come in and Alex is saying we are going to send off people. What

:58:33.:58:35.

would you do if 300,000 come into Scotland every year, would you still

:58:36.:58:41.

be greed? One of the reasons that Scotland voted so heavily for Remain

:58:42.:58:47.

is that there isn't the same anxiety about immigration and people coming

:58:48.:58:49.

from other countries. I think there's two reasons for that. One is

:58:50.:58:54.

there's not a family in the whole of Scotland who doesn't have somebody

:58:55.:58:58.

who emigrated to Australia or Canada, the United States or

:58:59.:59:02.

whatever. It's not easy to sell a message like Ukip were trying to do.

:59:03.:59:07.

That somehow he's immigrants were a burden, since every family has an

:59:08.:59:10.

immigrant who has made a great success elsewhere. The second reason

:59:11.:59:14.

is equally important. Parts of Scotland have suffered not from

:59:15.:59:19.

immigration, but from emigration. If you've seen depopulation and what

:59:20.:59:22.

the lack of people and the lack of services and the lack of schools and

:59:23.:59:26.

empty Glenns and empty villages and towns, if you see what that does to

:59:27.:59:32.

a community, then you'll never fear immigration again, because

:59:33.:59:35.

emigration and depopulation is much, much worse. Why are they leaving

:59:36.:59:38.

Alex, are you not doing a very good job? Alex mentions Scotland and

:59:39.:59:46.

today there was what seemed to be a rather cool discussion between

:59:47.:59:50.

Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon about this whole issue of how the

:59:51.:59:55.

Brexit negotiations are conducted. Let's have that question now.

:59:56.:00:03.

Women Brexit unite or spell the end of the union? I don't think it will

:00:04.:00:09.

spell the end of the union. I very much hope it won't. I think the

:00:10.:00:14.

union is bigger than its constituent parts. The UK is stronger through

:00:15.:00:19.

having its constituent nations belonging to it. Would it be a worry

:00:20.:00:23.

to you if it did mean the end of the UK? Yes, it would worry me. On the

:00:24.:00:30.

other hand, I think that democratic self-government cannot be held

:00:31.:00:33.

hostage by the feelings of people in one part of this country. I have

:00:34.:00:40.

great respect for Scotland. I have great sympathy with the aspirations

:00:41.:00:51.

of a number of Scots for independence, but the question is

:00:52.:00:54.

whether it will lead to the break up of the union. Personally, I don't

:00:55.:00:59.

think it will, because I think that the Scots are extremely level headed

:01:00.:01:07.

and sensible individuals and that when they look, as I think they

:01:08.:01:11.

already are, at the hard facts of what would happen to Scotland, if it

:01:12.:01:15.

were to gain independence from Britain, in the event of Britain

:01:16.:01:20.

leaving the European Union, I think just on economic terms alone it is

:01:21.:01:25.

to Scotland's disadvantage. They can see that the European Union is not

:01:26.:01:34.

going to be overly enthusiastic about encouraging a similar

:01:35.:01:44.

secessionary -- cessationy movement in Europe. It's jumping the gun. If

:01:45.:01:48.

Scotland wants independence that's one issue. The issue is whether or

:01:49.:01:53.

not it should be allowed to conduct a second referendum before the

:01:54.:01:57.

Brexit negotiations are concluded. And the argument as I understand it

:01:58.:02:01.

from Nicola Sturgeon is that it was always understood if there was a

:02:02.:02:05.

material change in the circumstance of Scotland inside the United

:02:06.:02:09.

Kingdom, then all bets would be off and another referendum would be

:02:10.:02:13.

called. But no material change will have happened until the final deal

:02:14.:02:17.

is done. The Scots will have no idea what they are voting for. Let's

:02:18.:02:23.

leave aside the timing of a referendum. The question is whether

:02:24.:02:27.

the deal done by Davis David is one that could satisfy opinion in

:02:28.:02:28.

Scotland. You, sir, in the middle, yes? With

:02:29.:02:39.

the glasses on. No, to the right. Yes. I'm just worried that the

:02:40.:02:47.

Scottish referendum question has moved from being an issue about the

:02:48.:02:53.

union, to being an issue of subtle political blackmail. I believe the

:02:54.:03:04.

union of 300 years... APPLAUSE David Davis is being blackmailed by

:03:05.:03:12.

Scotland? Yes, it has become used in every major UK Government decision

:03:13.:03:15.

and if there is a second referendum, if they visit, there will be a third

:03:16.:03:19.

and a fourth as soon as there are any major decisions. APPLAUSE

:03:20.:03:27.

Alex Salmond? For the information of melanin, in the SNP manifesto last

:03:28.:03:34.

year, Nicola Sturgeon, on page 23, put in the commitment that if there

:03:35.:03:39.

were a material change in circumstances, such as Scotland

:03:40.:03:42.

being taken out of the European Union against the will of the

:03:43.:03:45.

Scottish people, then the Scottish parliament should have the right to

:03:46.:03:49.

hold another referendum. That was a manifesto commitment. The last few

:03:50.:03:54.

weeks around the budget and small business, we have seen what happens

:03:55.:03:57.

to government to try to ditch their manifesto commitment. That was in

:03:58.:04:00.

the manifesto and she was re-elected resoundingly with 47% of the vote

:04:01.:04:04.

and the Scottish Parliament has every right to implement that

:04:05.:04:09.

manifesto. We have heard a lot about that but what about what David Davis

:04:10.:04:13.

will negotiate? Is there an outcome of those negotiations which could

:04:14.:04:16.

satisfy Scotland so the issue of another referendum would not arise?

:04:17.:04:21.

Maccabeus, there is and in answer to the gentleman, before Christmas,

:04:22.:04:23.

Nicola Sturgeon put forward the position paper... Plateau gait

:04:24.:04:30.

Scotland's place in Europe which led the way to resolve the

:04:31.:04:33.

differences... And there is no way to do it just now, Ireland is in

:04:34.:04:37.

stalemate, the Welsh Aileen aided, Scotland will have another

:04:38.:04:39.

referendum and England is still split 50-50. -- the Welsh are in

:04:40.:04:47.

limbo. Nicola Sturgeon said the way that the UK could do it was stay

:04:48.:04:50.

within the single market place even if they left the EU and if that were

:04:51.:04:55.

not possible, then for Northern Ireland or Scotland in particular,

:04:56.:04:58.

in our document, for Scotland to have a special deal within the

:04:59.:05:01.

single market place even if the UK were to leave. That was the position

:05:02.:05:05.

paper and many other things, like protecting the rights of European

:05:06.:05:09.

citizens in Scotland, workers' rights, really important issues in

:05:10.:05:12.

this debate. That was the position paper. The government has had it for

:05:13.:05:16.

more than three months and Nicola Sturgeon has not had an answer. She

:05:17.:05:21.

was not even consulted about the Article 50 letter. The meetings of

:05:22.:05:24.

the joint ministerial committee that were going to take place did not

:05:25.:05:28.

take place, the Welsh delegation described them as being conducted

:05:29.:05:33.

like a parish council meeting. The attitude towards not just Scotland

:05:34.:05:36.

but the other devolved administrations has been

:05:37.:05:37.

contemptuous from the Westminster government. She had every right to

:05:38.:05:43.

go to the Scottish Parliament and increment the mandate. David Davis,

:05:44.:05:47.

what do you say to this, there has been no serious negotiations

:05:48.:05:49.

although we know there were promised at the beginning and can you deliver

:05:50.:05:53.

a deal that will satisfy Scottish opinion? There has been to meetings

:05:54.:05:58.

of the Council chaired by the Prime Minister, more there -- more than

:05:59.:06:02.

there has been in most years of the last decade, there have been four

:06:03.:06:06.

joint ministerial committee meetings on this subject alone, attended by

:06:07.:06:09.

the Scottish Government, the gentleman I saw today, attended by

:06:10.:06:14.

the Welsh government and the Northern Irish executive while it

:06:15.:06:19.

existed. And what are you told by them? Quite a lot, take for example

:06:20.:06:22.

that White Paper which was discussed and debated at the joint ministerial

:06:23.:06:29.

committee, some aspects of it, protection of employees rights,

:06:30.:06:32.

absolutely taken on board and made a major part of our policy. What about

:06:33.:06:40.

being in the single market? That is a crucial one. The single market

:06:41.:06:45.

issue, now, what is single market membership about? It is about

:06:46.:06:49.

maintaining jobs and access to the single market, being able to sell

:06:50.:06:52.

products and services into the single market. What are we trying to

:06:53.:06:56.

get? A comprehensive free trade arrangement which does just that,

:06:57.:07:00.

which allows us to sell into the single market so the distinction

:07:01.:07:04.

becomes one of how you do it and the Scottish proposal is that they, now,

:07:05.:07:10.

alone, should be a member of the single market while the rest of the

:07:11.:07:14.

UK is not. That means they have got to sign up to free movement of

:07:15.:07:18.

people, so you can have free movement of people to Edinburgh but

:07:19.:07:21.

not London, they have to sign up to the European Court of Human Rights

:07:22.:07:25.

and all of the elements, in other words, they want to break the

:07:26.:07:30.

country in two. What a surprise! APPLAUSE

:07:31.:07:41.

Yes? Can I just... Can we take a deep breath and acknowledge

:07:42.:07:45.

something? In a general election or a by-election, people by and large

:07:46.:07:48.

go by party lines, they may be swayed by the arguments of the time

:07:49.:07:52.

but they go with the party they usually vote for. In the referendum,

:07:53.:07:56.

it was completely different. Families voted differently,

:07:57.:08:02.

immunities. I know from reading Craig Oliver's excellent book that

:08:03.:08:06.

there were many surprises on both sides, all the way throughout.

:08:07.:08:12.

Coming here tonight, watching in the audience for the first time,

:08:13.:08:16.

watching at home, it is very hard for people to really decide what the

:08:17.:08:21.

truth is because arguments seem to be made, still, on party lines by

:08:22.:08:26.

people sat up there. I think it is very hard for people sat at home to

:08:27.:08:29.

really decide and understand what is going on here, like for the

:08:30.:08:36.

referendum, there was Project Fear, the Nigel Farage posters and people

:08:37.:08:40.

heard the arguments made but it is still hard because everyone seems to

:08:41.:08:44.

have diametrically opposed opinion. That is all well and good when there

:08:45.:08:49.

is an election but the decision has already been made and we are sad

:08:50.:08:56.

that I'm thinking we're pretty much powerless, and I personally don't

:08:57.:08:58.

have a great deal of faith the people in power to exercise a

:08:59.:09:05.

decision when you can't even agree on what is going to happen and the

:09:06.:09:09.

decision is already out of our hands, it is up to you. Keir

:09:10.:09:15.

Starmer? APPLAUSE I'm very grateful for you making

:09:16.:09:18.

that point because we were split down the middle. It was a narrow

:09:19.:09:25.

decision, 52-48, almost halfway down the country. Obviously, I campaigned

:09:26.:09:29.

passionately to stay in the EU but I did it on the basis the outcome

:09:30.:09:33.

would be binding which is why I and the Labour Party have accepted the

:09:34.:09:36.

result but what we now need to do, it is harder than it seems, is to go

:09:37.:09:41.

forward in a way that unifies the country and works both for those

:09:42.:09:44.

that voted to leave and for those that voted to remain. One of the

:09:45.:09:48.

concerns about the government 's approach is that those that voted to

:09:49.:09:52.

remain feel they have been written out of their own future but we have

:09:53.:09:56.

to have an agreement that actually works for both sides of the country,

:09:57.:10:00.

as it were, and we have stood atop talking in the way that perpetuates

:10:01.:10:04.

the division which is why I set out six tests today which are based on

:10:05.:10:08.

the idea that if we can't be members of the EU because that was the

:10:09.:10:12.

referendum question, how can we be close partners with EU countries and

:10:13.:10:16.

colleagues and have something that works for future generations because

:10:17.:10:21.

we are talking about generational change, here. That is why so

:10:22.:10:26.

important to build consensus. David and the government set out months

:10:27.:10:29.

ago saying they would try to build a consensus across the nations and

:10:30.:10:32.

nations and regions and I'm afraid they have failed to do that, and

:10:33.:10:35.

today is further evidence of that and they need to work harder. I

:10:36.:10:40.

think the Prime Minister is taking quite an isolationist approach, not

:10:41.:10:43.

wanting to be open with accountability and scrutiny. We

:10:44.:10:46.

wanted to have Parliament more involved and at every twist and

:10:47.:10:53.

turn, the Prime Minister said no but a collegiate approach is better. We

:10:54.:10:56.

will talk about that in a moment but one or two more people on this

:10:57.:11:01.

point. Yes? ... Access to the single market for them is a foregone

:11:02.:11:05.

conclusion. You have no idea what is going to happen if you left the UK.

:11:06.:11:08.

You have no idea what access to Europe you will get. I feel like it

:11:09.:11:13.

is a foolish stunt, bringing the Scottish referendum earlier when

:11:14.:11:16.

originally, it was only going to be if we couldn't get access to the

:11:17.:11:20.

single market so it appears like you are moving the goalposts and aiming

:11:21.:11:24.

towards a referendum regardless of the circumstances. APPLAUSE

:11:25.:11:31.

Not everyone on the panel has spoken to this yet but since it is directed

:11:32.:11:38.

at you, Alex, can you answer that? In 18 months, two years' time, we

:11:39.:11:41.

will know the shape of the Brexit deal and the House of Commons and

:11:42.:11:44.

every other Parliament across the EU will be given a choice, take it or

:11:45.:11:48.

leave it, and it is not a real choice incidentally because leave

:11:49.:11:51.

it, as we have already discussed, leaving the single market will be a

:11:52.:11:54.

bad choice, so why shouldn't the people of Scotland have the same

:11:55.:11:57.

ability to choose between a Brexiteer of David Davis or

:11:58.:12:00.

independents from Europe? By that time, the proposition will go

:12:01.:12:06.

forward to the Scottish people which will involve continuous membership

:12:07.:12:08.

of the single market because the choice is not now a choice in 18

:12:09.:12:11.

months' time. One last thing, the Prime Minister, which you came to

:12:12.:12:14.

Scotland the week after she was elected, she gave a commitment that

:12:15.:12:19.

she would not sign Article 50 until there was an agreed UK position

:12:20.:12:22.

backed by Scotland. These were her words. There has been no such

:12:23.:12:27.

agreement but she is intent on going ahead on Wednesday and invoking

:12:28.:12:31.

Article 50. It is a clear breach of faith and breach of her word and

:12:32.:12:35.

Nicola Sturgeon is quite entitled to go to the Scottish parliament and

:12:36.:12:39.

ask for support. Do you agree with that? It is a breach of faith?

:12:40.:12:44.

Before you do, answer that point if you can, if you can take the two,

:12:45.:12:47.

the point there has been a breach of faith with Scotland. I think a

:12:48.:12:52.

plague on both your houses, I don't think Scottish nationalism is

:12:53.:12:58.

another... On the whole of the UK? In the UK, for those of us who are

:12:59.:13:00.

not Scottish Nationalists or members of the Conservative Party or Ukip,

:13:01.:13:05.

we are squeezed between a resurgent English nationalism between the

:13:06.:13:09.

Conservative Party and Ukip nationalism in Westminster and

:13:10.:13:12.

sluggish nationalism north of the border, I don't think nationalism is

:13:13.:13:15.

a solution to the world's problems, north or south of the border. I

:13:16.:13:19.

think it has been very unhelpful the SNP have jumped opportunistically to

:13:20.:13:22.

trigger another independence referendum as it was, by the way,

:13:23.:13:27.

totally predictable that by pursuing this cell farming hard Brexit and

:13:28.:13:30.

yanking us out of the single market, yanking us out of the customs union,

:13:31.:13:34.

choices we did not need to make as a country and choices that David Davis

:13:35.:13:41.

before he went into government would argue against, by doing that of

:13:42.:13:43.

course you provoke tensions within the family of nations. Quickly to

:13:44.:13:46.

the gentleman earlier who said it is so difficult for the public to work

:13:47.:13:49.

out what happens next, those who I feel... My heart goes out most two

:13:50.:13:54.

is the youngsters who voted in very large numbers, 18-24 -year-olds,

:13:55.:14:00.

over 60% of them voted on the 23rd of June last year and 70% of them

:14:01.:14:04.

said they don't want this future. As a country, for better or worse, I

:14:05.:14:08.

think for worse, we have taken a huge decision about our future

:14:09.:14:12.

against the exquisite, stated wishes of those who have to inhabit that

:14:13.:14:16.

future, in other words, the young. They have to live with the

:14:17.:14:24.

consequences of this decision and that is what I think, when we

:14:25.:14:26.

finally know what the deal is, of course it is right that the decision

:14:27.:14:29.

about what whether we adopt the deal should not be left to David Davis,

:14:30.:14:32.

Theresa May or the politicians, it should be given back to the people.

:14:33.:14:38.

We will come to that. APPLAUSE We will come to that but Suzanne

:14:39.:14:42.

Evans, on this point about the union? I think, you know, Alex, you

:14:43.:14:47.

talk about Scotland and you talk about the people of Scotland but

:14:48.:14:50.

what you mean is, you talk about the SNP. In the SNP does not

:14:51.:14:57.

represent... APPLAUSE Just a couple of points, a third of

:14:58.:15:03.

SNP voters voted for Brexit. And also, you know, what Melanie said

:15:04.:15:06.

right at the beginning of the discussion is spot on, Scottish

:15:07.:15:11.

people are very sensible. They know that Scotland economically is four

:15:12.:15:14.

times as reliant on the UK as it is of the European Union. And it is

:15:15.:15:20.

absolutely... So you believe in free trade? Not just for emotional

:15:21.:15:25.

reasons, but for the country and the future as a united country and I

:15:26.:15:28.

very much hope Scotland stays part of the UK but you know, it is a good

:15:29.:15:32.

thing for Scotland to stay in because it is in their best

:15:33.:15:36.

interests and at the end of the day, after Brexit, at least I know what

:15:37.:15:39.

currency I'm going to have in my pocket. The SNP, you leave the UK,

:15:40.:15:44.

you won't have a clue what currency will have. Wait a minute, wait a

:15:45.:15:49.

minute, we will have a lot more in Scotland. Alex, if you could bring

:15:50.:15:54.

yourself to be very brief. Briefly, Nicola Sturgeon can't get an SNP

:15:55.:15:58.

majority for the referendum in the Scottish parliament, she has to get

:15:59.:16:01.

a majority across the Parliament, she needs another political party to

:16:02.:16:05.

agree to get the majority and she is not just speaking for the SNP, she's

:16:06.:16:08.

trying to articulate the view of the nation and whatever the votes for

:16:09.:16:13.

the SNP which incidentally, are 20 times the votes for Ukip, whatever

:16:14.:16:19.

the for the SNP... APPLAUSE The vast, overwhelming majority of

:16:20.:16:22.

people in Scotland want a say in the single market. -- want to stay. I

:16:23.:16:29.

want David Davis to answer the point you made earlier that Scotland have

:16:30.:16:32.

been betrayed in these discussions are ready by the Prime Minister,

:16:33.:16:35.

promising she would do one thing and then not and then I want to go the

:16:36.:16:38.

question you raised about what now because that is probably the last

:16:39.:16:44.

area we are going to, how this proceeds and what control the

:16:45.:16:47.

British public as a whole has over it. David?

:16:48.:16:51.

When Alex said this in the House of Commons, he quote today from a

:16:52.:16:56.

newspaper, rather than the original fact. Which one. He's answered

:16:57.:17:00.

himself. The simple truth is what the Prime Minister said is that she

:17:01.:17:04.

would seek consensus. She can't demand it. Frankly the Scottish

:17:05.:17:07.

National Party doesn't want consensus. It wants to have it's all

:17:08.:17:13.

so-called compromise solution, which is single market membership for is

:17:14.:17:18.

of. Nick lectured us all on honesty earlier, and he started off by

:17:19.:17:23.

saying, he started off by saying that I had made this argument

:17:24.:17:27.

before, untrue. The argument he was now making. And he said we want to

:17:28.:17:32.

have membership of the single market. He's ignoring something

:17:33.:17:37.

important. To have that you have to accept free movement. You have to

:17:38.:17:41.

accept the rule of the our peen court of justice, not human rights,

:17:42.:17:45.

as I said earlier. The 6th April, 2014, you wrote, first we should

:17:46.:17:48.

retain access to the EU single market. Access. Membership and

:17:49.:17:54.

access are different things. That's the point. If the liberal party

:17:55.:17:59.

can't realise that... APPLAUSE

:18:00.:18:03.

No, no, no. That's wrong. Retain access. Jo it's a meaningless thing

:18:04.:18:08.

to say. You've got to be honest about the facts you're talking to

:18:09.:18:12.

now. And the last point about it is of course that being in the sing the

:18:13.:18:16.

market, it's virtually impossible to be outside the European Union and be

:18:17.:18:21.

in the single market, unless you're going to behave and accept all the

:18:22.:18:24.

rules handed down from somebody else. So I'm afraid that simply does

:18:25.:18:28.

not stand up. The British people voted to leave the European Union,

:18:29.:18:32.

not stay half in, half out. APPLAUSE

:18:33.:18:41.

Just to be clear, access to the sing the market and paying for access to

:18:42.:18:45.

the single market is something you would go along with? I didn't say

:18:46.:18:49.

that. Any contribution for access to the single market, of course, woed'

:18:50.:18:57.

consider it? Considering. If you consider it, you're not ruling it

:18:58.:19:01.

out. As the Prime Minister corrected me that day, yes, we'd consider it,

:19:02.:19:06.

didn't mean we'd do it. I don't think he'd be at all pleased or

:19:07.:19:11.

convinced. That's what I'm talking about. You don't understand it.

:19:12.:19:15.

Doesn't make sense. I'm not the Prime Minister luckily. I'm going to

:19:16.:19:17.

take another question. Should the British people

:19:18.:19:20.

have a vote on the final Let's take this now, should the

:19:21.:19:27.

British people have a vote on the final Brexit deal agreed, what

:19:28.:19:32.

happens, David Davis, when you come back with your deal. It's said it's

:19:33.:19:37.

going to be put to Parliament as a yes or No vote. That's where it

:19:38.:19:41.

stands at the moment? Is that it? That's the end TV? Because the

:19:42.:19:45.

decision taken by -- that's the end of it? Because the decision taken by

:19:46.:19:51.

the British people on June 23 was the point of no return. We gave the

:19:52.:19:55.

British people a referendum on this subject. It was said at the dispatch

:19:56.:19:58.

box by the minister presenting the act of Parliament that this will be

:19:59.:20:03.

a decision for the British people, not advice, decision. So yes, that's

:20:04.:20:08.

the stance. Now you ask about a referendum. This is the liberal

:20:09.:20:12.

party policy, a second referendum. If you want to encourage the

:20:13.:20:19.

European negotiator in this to give us the worst possible deal, that's

:20:20.:20:23.

the way to do it. Why so? Just explain it. I will. Because what

:20:24.:20:28.

they want is to keep us in. They want to keep us in. If you had

:20:29.:20:31.

another referendum, another run at the referendum, they would give us

:20:32.:20:35.

the worst deal, in the hope that we would vote to stay in. For our

:20:36.:20:40.

money, for our involvement, for the contribution we make to the European

:20:41.:20:43.

Union, in all sorts of ways, that's what they would do. Come on, David.

:20:44.:20:46.

APPLAUSE Keir Starmer. I think it's really

:20:47.:20:54.

important that Parliament has a say in this. That's why we've been

:20:55.:20:58.

arguing for what I termed a meaningful vote in Parliament, which

:20:59.:21:02.

is the ability of MPs to vote on the deal that comes back in two years'

:21:03.:21:06.

time. You've been offered that. Absolutely. We intend - and that's

:21:07.:21:12.

why I said out tests today, we intend to use that because if the

:21:13.:21:14.

Prime Minister comes back with a deal, which doesn't have the

:21:15.:21:17.

confidence of Parliament, then that is not a good deal for our country.

:21:18.:21:20.

That's a really important vote in Parliament. Now that, hopefully,

:21:21.:21:24.

will be in the Autumn of 2018. If it's not good enough, the

:21:25.:21:27.

instruction will be to the Prime Minister to go and negotiate some

:21:28.:21:31.

more. This idea that it's a take it or leave it vote is a political

:21:32.:21:36.

choice on the half of the Prime Minister. That's a very, very

:21:37.:21:40.

important point of grip. As for a second referendum, I'm afraid that

:21:41.:21:43.

lots of people make the argument for a second referendum are not being

:21:44.:21:46.

honest about whether it's achievable. Because all that will

:21:47.:21:49.

happen in two years' time, if this goes in the direction I hope it will

:21:50.:21:54.

go in, is that we'll have a transitional arrangement in March

:21:55.:21:59.

2019. Can't have a referendum on a transitional arrangement. The final

:22:00.:22:02.

deal will be perhaps two or three after a transitional period, by

:22:03.:22:06.

which time, we will have formally left the EU. In other words, what's

:22:07.:22:10.

being put forward is the false promise, if you like, of a

:22:11.:22:13.

referendum that isn't going to happen. Politically this is

:22:14.:22:15.

important because either we stand up and face - I didn't want to leave

:22:16.:22:19.

the EU, I passionately campaigned to stay in, now the decision is made,

:22:20.:22:23.

we need to stand up and confront the challenges in front of us or we

:22:24.:22:25.

spend the whole time looking behind us trying to rub out the decision

:22:26.:22:29.

that was made. I don't think we're going to succeed if we do the

:22:30.:22:32.

second. What happens if you have the vote and the Government comes back

:22:33.:22:37.

and presents it, perhaps unlikely, but in view of the House of Commons,

:22:38.:22:40.

but there is a vote against it, what happens then? Are you going to send

:22:41.:22:44.

him back again to have another go - that's like the referendum. If they

:22:45.:22:48.

think that's going to happen, they will take his referendum argument.

:22:49.:22:53.

Is there any chance of it happening? This vote in the House of Commons is

:22:54.:22:57.

artificial. It will come in two years' time - October 2018. Well,

:22:58.:23:03.

October 2018, let's say it is, then it will be accepted or rejected.

:23:04.:23:07.

Why? Because the Prime Minister says so? Because there's a two-year time

:23:08.:23:12.

limit on these negotiations. I have put an amendment to make sure if it

:23:13.:23:17.

was rejected we'd stay in, I can't remember if the Labour Party decided

:23:18.:23:24.

to support that. It's an artificial chase, take or leave it. On the

:23:25.:23:28.

question of the referendum, you'd have to have a general election, in

:23:29.:23:32.

which people argued in the general election to hold another refer dumb

:23:33.:23:37.

and got a mandate for doing. It unfortunately the past was sold on

:23:38.:23:39.

the referendum, where the majority of the people, including the Labour

:23:40.:23:42.

Party and the Liberal Democrats voted for this referendum two years

:23:43.:23:45.

ago in the House of Commons. I think they were wrong to do so, but the

:23:46.:23:51.

surpass was sold in that. The only way for another referendum is with a

:23:52.:23:55.

general election to give a pert a mandate to reconsider the whole

:23:56.:23:59.

referendum. Personally I'm not sure whether another referendum is the

:24:00.:24:02.

right way to go, frankly, there are a lot of people in this country who

:24:03.:24:08.

think how the hell can we trust a Government to have our best

:24:09.:24:11.

interests at heart and get the best deal for us, when they haven't had

:24:12.:24:16.

our best interests before. They say oh, Theresa May comes out and say

:24:17.:24:19.

more funding for mental health, a week later, mental health is being

:24:20.:24:23.

cut. How can we - There was a referendum. How can retrust someone

:24:24.:24:28.

- There was a referendum. How can retrust someone who's deported

:24:29.:24:31.

50,000 students. We leave right, we've got that, how can we trust

:24:32.:24:36.

them to get the best deal for us when they haven't done it

:24:37.:24:39.

beforehand. I see. I have great sympathy with that. We have been to

:24:40.:24:43.

be quick now. It's a widespread problem. There's lack of trust in

:24:44.:24:47.

Government. We are in a Parliamentary democracy. We had a

:24:48.:24:52.

refer ditch on the constitutional -- referendum on the constitutional

:24:53.:24:55.

issue. We voted out. Our system means we entrust the Government to

:24:56.:25:00.

negotiate and Parliament rightly will have a say on the final

:25:01.:25:05.

negotiation. So much of this argument is a coveted way of

:25:06.:25:09.

Remainers trying to overturn the will of the British people.

:25:10.:25:17.

APPLAUSE It sounds very seductive, let's

:25:18.:25:21.

bridge the gap between Remainers and Brexiteers. If I hear these terms,

:25:22.:25:25.

hard Brexit and soft Brexit, I shall throw up. There is no hard Brexit

:25:26.:25:29.

and soft Brexit. There is simply Brexit.

:25:30.:25:35.

APPLAUSE Keir Starmer is saying this is

:25:36.:25:40.

rubbish. What is meant by soft Brexit is keeping us within the EU

:25:41.:25:45.

rules, which means effectively half in, half out. It is an attempt by

:25:46.:25:51.

Remainersto pretend to -- remainers to pretend to obey the will of

:25:52.:25:57.

British people while in the detail trying to overturn it. We only have

:25:58.:26:01.

a couple of minutes left. Very quickly. David Davis, this is

:26:02.:26:05.

beneath you. We've known each other for many years. You cannot claim it

:26:06.:26:09.

would be impossible for a democracy to be able to negotiate successfully

:26:10.:26:13.

international agreement. By your logic, when David Davis said that

:26:14.:26:16.

having another referendum on the final deal it would be an incentive

:26:17.:26:20.

to give the United Kingdom a bad deal. By that reckoning, the only

:26:21.:26:24.

governments that could successfully negotiate good international

:26:25.:26:27.

agreements with each other are dictatorships, where you never allow

:26:28.:26:32.

the people to have a say. Secondly, you used to make this argument. You

:26:33.:26:38.

used to advocate a double referendum strategy. We also commit the country

:26:39.:26:42.

to a decision referendum to be held when the EU negotiation is concluded

:26:43.:26:46.

and then you said something rather wise, if a democracy cannot change

:26:47.:26:50.

its mind, it ceases to be a democracy. And the question is, as

:26:51.:26:55.

ever, who decides. Let's say we have a deal. Would decides? Is it Theresa

:26:56.:26:59.

May on her own in Number Ten? Is it a bunch of politicians in

:27:00.:27:02.

Westminster? Or is it you? I believe it should be you.

:27:03.:27:07.

Suzanne Evans. APPLAUSE

:27:08.:27:10.

You have to be very brief I'm afraid. We only have a minute or so

:27:11.:27:15.

left. We had a referendum in 1975. We changed our mind, we've had

:27:16.:27:17.

another one. We're leaving. APPLAUSE

:27:18.:27:22.

Ukip is very much in favour. We can't carry on having referendums on

:27:23.:27:25.

referendums on referendums. The vote leave campaign made it clear what we

:27:26.:27:28.

want from Brexit. David, the country is looking to you to deliver. It

:27:29.:27:39.

OK. -- to deliver it. Keir Starmer. I accept the result. I think I now

:27:40.:27:44.

and many other people should have a role in shaping the future. There is

:27:45.:27:47.

a role of difference between crashing out without a deal,

:27:48.:27:50.

severing our ties with Europe and on the other hand having a partnership,

:27:51.:27:54.

a collaborative, Co-operative future with Europe. I've got children and

:27:55.:27:58.

the next generation require us and want us to shape the future for

:27:59.:28:02.

them. Simply saying there's no choice, they are very different

:28:03.:28:05.

futures. We've got it fight for the future that we want for the next

:28:06.:28:09.

generation. I've got to stop because we have to make way for today's news

:28:10.:28:14.

and the rest of it. I want to say to all of you here who had your hands

:28:15.:28:18.

up and didn't get a chance, I'm sorry. I don't apologise to the

:28:19.:28:21.

panel, because they've all had a good shout. We have the Article 50

:28:22.:28:25.

on Wednesday. And the letter from the Prime Minister to Donald Tusk,

:28:26.:28:28.

the president of the European Council, from Theresa May, and a

:28:29.:28:31.

response apparently in 48 hours. Plenty more to talk about, Thursday,

:28:32.:28:36.

the so-called great repeal bill will get the details of that and the

:28:37.:28:40.

legislation moving here. My thanks to our panel, to all of you who came

:28:41.:28:43.

here to Birmingham to take part, Question Time will be back on

:28:44.:28:47.

Thursday at its usual time of 10. 45pm, here on BBC One. For now, from

:28:48.:28:50.

Birmingham, good night.

:28:51.:28:58.

David Dimbleby presents a special edition of Question Time from Birmingham - Britain after Brexit. On the panel are secretary of state for exiting the EU David Davis, shadow secretary of state for exiting the EU Sir Keir Starmer, former deputy prime minister Nick Clegg, former first minister of Scotland Alex Salmond, deputy chair of Ukip Suzanne Evans and Times columnist Melanie Phillips.


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